A TLF Special Report: 'The Smashing Machine Review'

Episode Transcript

Speaker 1 (00:01):
It's the lapsed fan wrestling podcast with Jack and carn
S e O and JP sorrows.

Speaker 2 (00:09):
He's a lapsed fan and all my years and wrestling.

Speaker 3 (00:13):
You never seen anything.

Speaker 4 (00:21):
And it's the laps fan name like the one in
the ring. Forget about Sado. He the real king of
swing when the bell goes in and the kick like
me throwing in the corner but gets lashed like stick.
Even Jerry King can take off the crowd nodded in
his head like it. Steve low Brown, would you get
low down? We go even high up?

Speaker 5 (00:39):
Flipp you on your head, but you know cool driver
speaking more and Dragon spits fire give you more shock
than when Edge reat higher dropping more truth than the
con of sniper. Bless you with a coconut, Roddy Piper,
Jack and JP. He like j Y d drop the
cupcakes and gold the brain. Bob means the best podcast.
Frost start the close cloud if you are it's a classic.

Speaker 6 (01:01):
And pos you know sometimes class we need a palette cleansers.
We're in the middle of the complete Hulkogan. We're bombarding
people and we know we're about to hit him even
harder than they could ever imagine. As the story of
Hulkoguan unfolds. But you know, sometimes sometimes duty calls. Sometimes
the solar system says, you know what something's happening out there,
be it in wrestling or at the box office, that
just requires our immediate attention for us to clear the

(01:24):
decks and put something under the microscope. And I don't know,
would you agree.

Speaker 3 (01:28):
Does the Smashing Machine featuring the rock count? Yes, yes,
it absolutely does. I mean this is the this is
the next Iron Claw, basically is what it is. You know,
it's the same We're in that same vein where we're
trying to create, you know, dramatic and award worthy combat

(01:50):
sport picture motions.

Speaker 6 (01:52):
Yes, we're we're making film about the psyche of the
combat athlete and leaving more unspoken than said. It's the
Smashing Machine, and your co chairs have both seen it
independently of each other, and our guest today, LAPS fan
producer TJ. DeSantis of UFC Fight Pass fame, has also

(02:14):
taken the film in and his deep and abiding knowledge
of combat sports and this being the time period depicted
in this film as far as the Pride ninety nine
two thousand days, the Mark Kerr time period squarely write TJ.
In your nostalgic Wheelhouse, this is oh yeah, this is
your special spot.

Speaker 3 (02:34):
This is your nineteen ninety one WWA.

Speaker 7 (02:37):
But it's not quite in the special spot.

Speaker 8 (02:41):
My special spot is November two thousand and two to
like early early two thousand and six.

Speaker 7 (02:48):
But yeah, it's it's there. Like the Smashing Machine. That's
the thing too, Like I don't know.

Speaker 8 (02:54):
How to look at this film because like it's a
dramatic motion picture, but to me, it was just like, Okay,
are you guys going to screw up one of my
favorite documentaries of all time?

Speaker 3 (03:05):
Yeah.

Speaker 6 (03:06):
That's one of the great perspectives that you're going to
bring here is that you know the documentary before the film.
Boss has never seen the documentary, never.

Speaker 3 (03:13):
Seen it, ever heard of Mark Kerr before Boss, not
before the Rock was going to play him.

Speaker 6 (03:18):
Okay, perfect. So we've got both sides. We've got someone
that knew as much about Mark Kerr as one could
ever expect, and someone had never heard of him before.
And I'm somewhat in the middle. I mean, certainly having
seen all of his fights and everything and having seen
The Smashing Machine several times.

Speaker 3 (03:31):
So this is going to be good.

Speaker 6 (03:31):
This is going to be I think a really appropriate
TLF treatment of this attempt by Dwayne Johnson to take
his MMA mark Them and turn it into an Academy award.
I look forward to seeing how that develops. But we're
in the spirit of trying to make things go down
easier these days, as we've been barred you from all corners,

(03:52):
and we're proud to announce here before we get started
with our interview and or rather our review of the
Smashing Machine, that we're going to welcome into the TLF
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if this needs to go down smoothly bossed, I think
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(04:12):
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vegetables are healthy, sometimes I just don't want to go
down and they don't want to, they don't want to eat,
they don't want to stay down. Right, we want to
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(04:33):
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Speaker 3 (04:49):
I think it.

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is hand in glove, hand in hand. And we're proud
to welcome Prof Bees into the into the sponsorship circle.
So if you find yourself in need, if you've got

(05:30):
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been providing to you lately, and we'll continue to provide
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Speaker 7 (06:05):
Does it does it go in your ass?

Speaker 3 (06:08):
I would recommend taking it orally I do. I do
worry about compaction if we're if you're taking this down
through your mouth and we're going up your ass, that's
kind of I don't know, there's gonna be there's gonna
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Speaker 6 (06:19):
There's just another opportunity. Who's going to come with a
solution for that. Still waiting for the lube guys to
come through. I know, I know you're out there, all right,
all right, Okay, so we got to start where we
got to start. JP saw the movie Everyone Wants to know.
Top of my thoughts go, I'm I'm gonna say this.

(06:40):
So I did go see it with a friend, okay,
and and I did it with a reason. I went
to see it.

Speaker 3 (06:46):
I was going to go alone, but then I I
I had some I knew somebody who was not busy,
and I said, why don't you come with me to
see the movie? Because I was like, you know what,
I want somebody who's not in invested in the rock
to watch this as well. Yes, And the first thing

(07:07):
he said, when if we walked out of the theater,
there's no way he's winning an Emmy. How unfair. And
the fact that he said Emmy just also blew my mind.
Emmy right, Yeah, I I, I mean, there are a
lot of thoughts. The first one is I I just

(07:29):
don't see why this story needed to be told. I
didn't see I get I get the idea. And obviously
he had a notable career, but having a notable career
and having a notable life are two different things. And
I just didn't find his story to be anything that
we haven't seen a million times in uh, rock rocker musicals,

(07:52):
a rocker biopics, drugs, you know, a rough relationship. You know,
rise to rise to fame right away, he falls, he
comes back and da da dah, and you know, sometimes
they win, sometimes they lose in the end. And I
just was like, this is the same story but with
a different like I don't know, I'm not saying anything

(08:15):
about the life of the Guygangs. I know nothing about him,
but we'll get to that. In terms of the movie itself,
I just was like, they, I agree with the critics
in that it is the Rock's most transformative role. I
agree that he was something I've never seen him do before.

(08:39):
I don't know that it was great. I don't think
it was great.

Speaker 6 (08:42):
If you could describe what it is you saw him
do that he'd never done before, well, I mean.

Speaker 3 (08:49):
You've never really seen him like try to take on
the persona of somebody. And again, I don't know, Mark Kerr,
I don't know. We've seen him at the end of
the movie. Spoiler alert for those not that it's a
big deal. It's not even a spoiler. It doesn't do anything.
It's just like you see him, you see him in
the end in real life. And okay, so I guess
in real life the guy does sound like Vince Vaughn

(09:09):
as the Rock was doing, because that's what I thought
of every time he spoke. I said, he's trying to
do Vince Vaughn here, like, why is he trying to
do Vince Vaughn? And then I was like, okay, well
the guy kind of sounds like Vince von He sounds
like that, and he's very friendly and he's very whatever.
And I got to tell you the makeup and the
get up, it just was so fucking distracting. I sent

(09:32):
you a picture last week and I was like, it
just kind of reminds me. He looks like Triple H'
doing the Rock in ninety eight. All right, that's what
it kind of frock the Croc, Like he looks like
the Croc when he's got his full hair and the sideburns,
and all right, we did it again. You can never
see it. No one that ever heard you say that

(09:54):
is ever gonna be able to watch this movie.

Speaker 8 (09:56):
Yeah.

Speaker 3 (09:56):
Sorry, that's that's what we inadvertently do every tangle time.
That's what I look at and I see. And also
then he shaves his head and he looks like Batista.
I was like, you know, it looks like like current
day Batista with the big eyebrows and like, you know,
his face is weird now Batista's and it just was.
It was hard. But I want to say so there

(10:19):
are compliments here because he gave a very subtle performance.
He gave a very realistic performance. There was a lot there,
and I'll say it's his best work, but it's not.
I'll be surprised if he gets especially because this early
and award season. I mean it's early, you know, September, October,

(10:40):
that's like, that's early November December. To have a movie
that doesn't do well in the box office, I think
it's going to be forgotten come November. Honestly, I think
people are going to forget about it. I think I'll
tell you what. Emily Blunt was fantastic. Yeah, I thought
she was excellent. I thought she was so she reminded
me of a very toned down version, very toned down

(11:03):
version of Sharon Stone and Casino. Sure, I don't know
if you've seen that, but like she had that same
type of vibe and I sense it right from the
beginning of the movie. I said, she's gonna Sharon Stone
this ship. She's gonna totally about the movie. I said
this is what she's doing, and she's she's incredible, and
I just it was it was there was a lot

(11:23):
of trying. I didn't hate the movie. I didn't hate
it all right, I definitely there I liked it. It
just was choppy and it it didn't Yeah, it kind
of like it steamrolled over things. Like to me, addiction

(11:44):
is a very big thing for any especially for an athlete.
It's like to be dealing with with with any kind
of drug addiction, and they kind of just steamroll over
that as if it's not a big deal, and it's
like a it's kind of a almost as if it
was so easy for him to and maybe it was.
Maybe it was easy for him to get into rehab.
I don't know, but it seemed way too easy for
him to just kind of go into rehab and then

(12:06):
all of a sudden, you know, he's he's like clean
and he's okay, and you know, just a lot happened,
and I kind of wanted to see the process more.
I wanted to see him in rehab. To me, that
would have been more interesting than to kind of rush
back out and start training again. And fight scenes were great.

(12:27):
I didn't like the jazz music playing in most of
the fight scenes.

Speaker 6 (12:30):
Yeah, that was that was try hard a twenty four
like let's juxtapos blah blah blah blah blah.

Speaker 7 (12:36):
It just didn't.

Speaker 3 (12:37):
They just didn't. And you know what, trying hard that's
what it felt. Not even it didn't try too hard.
There are movies that you see that tried way too hard.
This was almost trying hard enough to act like we're
not trying well. I think what's fascinating in a couple
of fronts and return to TJ. You know TJ.

Speaker 6 (12:57):
If you've seen The Smashing Machine, one of the things
that strikes you is that this, to JP's point, is
probably so breakneck of a pace and flies through things
that you know the viewer might want some more meditation
on because it's it's damn close to a frame by
frame remake of the documentary. It's unbelievable.

Speaker 8 (13:16):
So to be fair, I called it my favorite documentary.
I haven't watched it in twenty years. I have a
copy of it on DVD. It's one of the so
like when Fight Pass launched, I got rid of everything.
I got rid of all my Pride DVDs, my UFC DVDs,
and I kept like a handful of DVDs that I
was like, probably can't replace this one, and The Smashing
Machine was on that list, and I wanted to watch it.

(13:42):
I wanted to watch it before I went to go
see the movie. I wanted to watch it after. Apparently
I don't own anything that plays a DVD, which is unfortunate, amazing.
And I also just looked on eBay these things are
going well, they're not going for I don't know if
they're being sold, but they're listed from anywhere at like
a hundred and fifty dollars to three hundred.

Speaker 3 (14:01):
Dollars for a DT player. No, no, no, okay, okay. Yeah.

Speaker 8 (14:10):
So the things that stuck out to me that I
recall from the documentary, uh, we're very gripping because it
was like, uh watching something that lived somewhere deep in
my brain but I had, you know, horribly uh misremembered it.
But then again, I'm watching the rock uh act out

(14:31):
these memories in my head. But yeah, I think when
when you said JP, that's like, why does this story
need to be told? It was such a groundbreaking documentary
for the time, like it came out in two thousand
and two. I bought a VHS copy of the documentary
it was on HBO I bought. I bought a VHS
tape that someone recorded off of HBO.

Speaker 3 (14:53):
I totally forgot it was on.

Speaker 8 (14:57):
What's funny about that is I got it like a
week after. Uh it premiered on HBO. In the eBay
sale was canceled because they had some sort of piracy
goddamn piracy of people get that joke, you know, enforcement there,
And uh, I still contacted the seller. I was like, Hey,

(15:20):
I don't care if eBay doesn't give me shipping insurance
or whatever.

Speaker 7 (15:23):
Can you just send the damn VHS? I need it?

Speaker 8 (15:26):
And uh so, I haven't seen it a long time,
but you know when he asked the Pride doctor backstage
if they have anything harder? Uh that was really gripping
the shot. I don't know if it really looked like that.
I remembered it much differently, but.

Speaker 3 (15:45):
I remember a dialogue just quickly.

Speaker 6 (15:48):
It's him asking the same question, but he doesn't have
that smart ass remark to Emily Blunt.

Speaker 3 (15:53):
About oh, look, age, I guess they're just an advil.
Just have to take adviil. He doesn't. Yeah, duy, Dwayne
takes it a little further.

Speaker 6 (15:58):
There isn't that much shift follow up after, but he
does kind of roll his eyes because because the Japanese
doctor says you need certification to get that, and he
rolls his eyes and they cut away fast. But it's
actually I laughed out loud in that scene when Dwayne
makes a joke about just a couple of advil and like,
you know, what the fuck is this? You know, like,
I'm not going to get high here, doc? So is
it kind of like is it basically a beat for

(16:20):
beat like remake of a lot of it is?

Speaker 3 (16:24):
Yeah?

Speaker 8 (16:24):
I mean the parts that that really stuck out to
me is like, Okay, this isn't in the documentary is
a lot of like the domestic stuff at home, you.

Speaker 6 (16:32):
Know, they don't have they don't have cameras when she
takes the gun out, they just have Mark sitting in
a chair describing the incident, and they they they show
a picture of his gun, but they don't they weren't
in the room when she tries to shoot herself.

Speaker 3 (16:46):
I mean, it's just see that to me right there,
it's like, why are you covering beats of a story
that's already been told? Like you should be covering the
beats that haven't been told yet. I know that I
get it. You know, I've never seen the documentary. I
don't even know about the documentary until this this movie
was announced.

Speaker 8 (17:05):
But I.

Speaker 3 (17:08):
It's like, almost in a weird way, what they should
do is and maybe they will do this, but you
shouldn't do it now, honestly, because people are gonna watch
the documentary and people are gonna watch the movie, although
maybe they won't because it did so poorly in the
box office, but people are gonna watch and they're gonna say, well,
wait a minute, it's the same fucking story. And like
I was saying, why don't you re release the documentary
with the home video version of of the this movie?

Speaker 8 (17:30):
But it's I can tell you real quick, JP, they
are doing a re release. I don't know if people
know that. I don't even know if I was supposed
to say that. I had a warm conversation with Mark
the day after I saw the movie, and I'm supposed
to interview him tomorrow.

Speaker 7 (17:47):
I don't know if that'll happen.

Speaker 8 (17:48):
He said he didn't have time to do the interview
with me when we talked, but then we talked for
an hour and a half, and I.

Speaker 3 (17:53):
Was like, why do we just about right? Yeah, but
that's an mma fighters right there big time to be fair.

Speaker 7 (18:01):
I mean, that's the thing too.

Speaker 8 (18:02):
You guys probably know this. You've done some interviews lately.
Like the idea of what an interview entails these days,
it's much different. Used to be just jump on the phone.
Now it's like I got to get a backdrop because
we were doing video. And it's like, I can see
why he didn't actually do the interview that day, because
I talked to him while I was in his car
the entire time.

Speaker 7 (18:20):
But right, yeah, I don't know.

Speaker 6 (18:23):
So it's interesting that the documentary piece, I think, you know,
it's obviously become rarefied. It's hard to find on DVD,
and and if you and if you've seen it, you
have definitely the perspective you're saying JP that you know,
it doesn't really it doesn't really make sense that you
would want to recreate it so faithfully. Now, I will
say that I purposely did not watch the documentary again

(18:47):
before the film because I didn't want to just be distracted.
I had heard already that it's it's very close to
the doc so I don't want to be distracted by it.
It just echoing your film so blatantly. And when I
went and munched it again afterwards the documentary, that is,
after seeing the film, I was glad I did it
that way because I was able to appreciate that Rock
really did tap into kind of like this, this almost

(19:11):
silent suffering of this guy. This guy is kind of
like doing a little bit and that he's kind of,
you know, he's got that like that little ting soft.
He's a big, giant guy and he does what it
takes to stay big and giant, but he also kind
of wants to be like kind of empathetic and emotional
and soft, and he you know, it's like he he
he takes pride and not flying off the handle every

(19:33):
two minutes, even though the things running through his veins
tell him to do that. So I think he got
that across, because it's probably probably the reason the documentary
struck done like this is not just because he's such
an MMA fan. It is because he probably sees a
little bit of himself and Mark in the earliest days
of his struggling to make it. I really felt that way.
I felt like they have similar personalities. But I would

(19:55):
ask TJ quickly to orient us to Mark Kerr, because
listeners of this show might not know anything about the guy,
and it's always nice to cross those streams when we can.

Speaker 7 (20:05):
Yeah, so it's interesting.

Speaker 8 (20:07):
I have a deep history with Mark that I didn't
really even realize until he and I started chatting. One
of the first interviews I ever did in MMA was
when he's supposed to fight Wes Simms in Colorado. And
I didn't ask her about this, but like this, this
would be a story I would really like to know about,
because like his career carried over, you know, much longer

(20:29):
than what's covered in the film. He was supposed to
fight Wes Simms in Denver and he waded in and
I actually interviewed him after he weighed in, and he
just didn't show up for the fight.

Speaker 7 (20:40):
I don't know what happened. Uh, you know what happened.

Speaker 3 (20:44):
Yeah.

Speaker 7 (20:45):
That's part of what.

Speaker 6 (20:46):
Made this led not to interrupt you just quickly. That's
part of what this documentary legendary too, because after it
came out, Mark did a series of things. We're like, oh,
I know what's going on there because you saw the doctor.

Speaker 7 (20:56):
Yeah, like he thought in Pride. After this and basically
got d d ted and knocked out. That that was
the joke. I get, not joke, but like the guy
that he fought I.

Speaker 8 (21:07):
Think his name was Yoshihisha Yamamoto and yamamotos and I
ddted him would really kersh on a double leg and
knock himself out.

Speaker 3 (21:15):
On knock himself out?

Speaker 8 (21:16):
Yeah yeah, but like yeah, so, like I have questions
for Mark, and I was upset that I wasn't in
the last scene in the movie because after Mark finished
his last pro fight, he Shannon Rich, who no one knows,
but I encourage people to look up Shanne and the
cannon and Mark's manager Ken Pavia, gave me a ride

(21:38):
back to the hotel after Mark got beat up pretty
badly by King Mo. And it was in a yellow Hummer.
I don't know why Shannon Rich was driving a yellow Hummer,
but I promise you I was in Shotgun that night.
That should have been the final scene of the movie.

Speaker 3 (21:51):
I like that I didn't realize it was King Mo
that was his last fight.

Speaker 9 (21:54):
Yeah.

Speaker 6 (21:54):
He had one of those long tail ends to his
career where it's like, okay, Mark, like it's really you
really ned to start? Uh, JP did you know anything
about Pride, Like what did you think of like the
essence of this Japanese fighting.

Speaker 3 (22:05):
I do remember Pride, actually because I remember, I mean,
you told me about Pride, honestly, like you you briefly
educated me on on on on Pride. And I think
the depiction of the fight scenes like that that whole
world besides the well, I'll tell you what I you know,
I don't know. I don't know MMA as well as

(22:27):
you guys do. I I've seen my fair share of it,
I tell you. While I do appreciate to a degree
like that there there was an essence of I like
the way that it was shot. I liked the way
that it was portrayed, except for the music. The music,
I was but it just felt slow in a way
like it didn't Yeah, like the punches looked like they

(22:49):
looked like Hollywood punches, and I'm I've seen I've seen
enough MMA punches to know that they don't look like that.
They don't look like that at all, and they and
yeah that that that kind of rubbed me the wrong
way a little bit, because I would I would expect
Dwayne to kind of take it to that next level
and try to make it look more. I mean, I

(23:10):
know it probably would be disappointing. I don't I wouldn't
have been disappointed, but I probably would be disappointed to
most moviegoers if a punch didn't land like a punch
lands in a movie. But I just thought it looked
it took away from the movie to me. Yeah, this
is a We've seen it.

Speaker 6 (23:27):
Before, like films like Warrior, TJ and some others that
have tried to portray MMA on the screen. And I
know what JP's saying, it it's hard. It's hard to
make fight scenes in a Hollywood movie look like a
real fight in an octagon. And I did feel like
there was kind of a disconnect, like kind of the
the way the guy's head snapped back on punches, the
way there was who a lot of wind up to
the punches. What did you think of the depiction of

(23:49):
Pride fight scenes in.

Speaker 7 (23:50):
This Yeah, I mean I didn't hate it. I expected
it to be that way.

Speaker 8 (23:56):
You know, when when I watched movies, you know, I
come from an MMA point of view, and like, I
understand that things have to be over the top for
you know, entertainment purposes. When I critique fight scenes in movies.
It's more when it's like a martial arts sort of thing,
it's like, well that doesn't work, You're not going to
do that. But like you know, like not everything can

(24:18):
be on Boch. Like, I think that's a nice mixture
of both. You know, the Muay Thai movie, I think
series now I don't there's like multiple box but like
there's a lot of stuff there that they you know,
implement real sort of fighting techniques. My issue with some
of the fight scenes in The Smashing Machine was the

(24:39):
first fight you see is Paul Varlins in IVC I
think it is, or its World Ballet Kudo Championships. The
guy that they used to have play Paul Varlins just
looked like an overweight slub that was folding. And you know,
Paul Varlins wasn't a great fighter, but like he was
an intimidating figure, you know what I mean. Like you

(25:00):
if I saw Paul Varlins walking down the street right now,
I'd be like, Wow, that guy's scary looking.

Speaker 7 (25:06):
But I didn't like who they cast there.

Speaker 3 (25:09):
So you know, Rick Flair, how do I say, Rick
Flair and Harley Race and the Iron Claw.

Speaker 7 (25:14):
Yeah, like those guys actually have like scenes.

Speaker 8 (25:17):
I'm just upset that a guy who gets beat up
in twenty two seconds doesn't look like the actual guy.

Speaker 3 (25:22):
Well, no, what I'm saying, the guy, the the actor
that Iron Claw didn't look anything like. I mean, they
looked all yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

Speaker 8 (25:29):
But those are iconic guys like Paul Varlins is I
don't know, I can't think of a mid card jobb
er enough.

Speaker 6 (25:36):
To beat Ralphaularlins actually did an ecw angle with Taz.
We've talked about that before, That's right, Yeah, of course
he wrestling fans might remember his his look, and he
did some like shoot style wrestling matches as well.

Speaker 3 (25:47):
But but yeah, you're right.

Speaker 6 (25:48):
I mean, the guy that that Dwayne beats up in
this movie is supposed to Paul Varlins looks like a
guy selling you the big Green egg and hardware store.

Speaker 3 (25:55):
Yeah.

Speaker 8 (25:55):
That wasn't even the worst casting job in my opinion,
though it really bothered me that in the I think
it was the ends and in a way fight for Kerr.
The referee is Gary Copeland, who's commonly referred to as
Mini Brock in the MMA community because he looks like
Rock Lesnar but only five for four.

Speaker 3 (26:16):
I encourge you to google Gary Copeland while.

Speaker 8 (26:21):
He was a Pride ref in the movie, the only
time I can recall an American being a referee for Pride.
You know what, I know that's your laugh. I know
that's your laugh to seeing Gary Copeland right now. But
my insecure I'm too much of a hardcore is driving
me crazy that I'm about to make a reference that
nobody gets.

Speaker 7 (26:41):
But I mean, is that is that not mini Brock totally?
Is it could be?

Speaker 3 (26:45):
Like it could be it's Brocks, like uh, you know
stunt double.

Speaker 7 (26:49):
It's his munchkin, is what it is? Right, he's not
very tall.

Speaker 6 (26:52):
I've got a bunch of them, like in a river
under his mansion like Ompalompis or something.

Speaker 8 (26:56):
But that really turned me off though, Like that really
turned me off because there was never an American ref
in Japan for Pride other than maybe Matt Hume. And
I think he did the Hoys Graciehiko Yoshieta match the
second one because there was controversy in their first meeting.
But like, I, oh, by the way, JP, you saw
this with one person a friend. Yeah, I saw it

(27:19):
with one more person than you. But we were the
only three people in the entire theater.

Speaker 3 (27:24):
There was one other person. There was one other person
with us. There was three people total.

Speaker 8 (27:28):
Okay, so we saw with the same amount of people
in the sense that was probably other moviegoers.

Speaker 7 (27:34):
Three.

Speaker 8 (27:35):
I don't know is this is the second time I've
been to a movie theater since the pandemic. The only
other movie I saw was Top Gune because I thought
I had to see that in the theater.

Speaker 7 (27:43):
Yes, but maybe Matt and A's are just dead now.
I don't know.

Speaker 8 (27:46):
And the worst part is I had to ask the
two people why they came to see that movie, and
like my social skills were not firing.

Speaker 7 (27:54):
Because I walked in the theater and I sat.

Speaker 8 (27:58):
I sat next to them because it was like a
sign seating and I wanted to take my rightful seat,
and uh, they said, are we in your seat?

Speaker 7 (28:04):
We moved. I was like, no, you're good, and then
I just looked at them and went, why are you
seeing this movie?

Speaker 3 (28:12):
And I.

Speaker 8 (28:14):
Need to add contacts and why I'm asking in the
wife of this couple, she did not want to be there.
It was very she did not want to be there.
But apparently there were two retirees and they just go
see a movie every Wednesday. So that was the one
that they decided to go see. But uh, yeah, Gary Copeland,
like I almost wanted to like look at this couple

(28:34):
and be like, that's terrible casting, but I digress.

Speaker 6 (28:39):
But yeah, that's I'm glad you mentioned that. I forgot
all about that. I caught him out of the corner
of my eye and was like, Okay, that's uh, that's
a fun decision. They they go through the thing. You know,
I didn't realize that this would make for such a
strange moment when you do a fictionalized, dramatized for of

(29:00):
the documentary. But MMA fans know that the Pride two
thousand Grand Prix Tournament does not end with Mark Kerr
versus Mark Coleman. But they start to tease that he's
got to fight his best friend.

Speaker 3 (29:09):
Boss.

Speaker 6 (29:10):
Were you like thinking, this's got to be the end
of the movie he fights his friend because I they
went there and it's like people are not going to
be happy with how it turns out, because the thing is,
it's it's not the first time they mentioned it in
the movie.

Speaker 3 (29:20):
I mean they they mentioned it several times in the
movie that there that like you know, imagine if we
got you know, no No Da and I was like, oh, okay,
so this is something that's going to happen, and we
may see the the the a friendship dissolved right in
front of our eyes, and I was like, okay, this
is this could be good. But then it doesn't happen,
and it was kind of a letdown, you.

Speaker 8 (29:43):
Know what's funny about that? So I was not an
MMA fan when the Pride Gram Prix happened. I don't
even know if that was really a storyline. Could Coleman
fight Kerr? That tournament was just so jacked up and
messed up to begin with. I mean because soccer robas
in the tournament, he fights Hoyst Gracie.

Speaker 3 (30:04):
But that's the only match. You made him a tournament jack.
You made him in my No Mercy game. Oh yeah,
yep for that reason.

Speaker 8 (30:11):
Yes, so soccer Rob is gonna fight Hoyst Gracy in
this tournament, but they're the only match that has unlimited
rounds that could go on forever.

Speaker 3 (30:20):
Right, Wow, how is that fair?

Speaker 6 (30:23):
Because you had to make all these special rules to
include Hoist because he had.

Speaker 7 (30:27):
His you know, was ninety minutes long. Everyone else us
maximum twenty ninety minutes.

Speaker 6 (30:34):
It's total legendary shit. And that's so funny is films
like this make you think that the main thrust of
interest was Mark Kerr and and Mark Coleman and the
Americans and everybody was there to see soccer Robba. Everybody
was there. That's why it was such a phenomenon. And
they don't really do what Dave Meltzer pointed this out.
I thought it was a good point, kind of like
how The Iron Claws struggles to get across how big

(30:55):
of a deal the Von Eric's really were in Dallas.
This really doesn't get across the enormity of the Pride circuit.
They make Pride look just as big as the UFC,
which at the time, you know, because they show some
of Mark Kerr's UFC fights, which are very very limited.
I mean that that's another reason why it's a strange choice,
because it's not like even Mark Kerr had much of

(31:15):
a UFC career. I mean, he certainly burst onto the
scene there, but he was gone within two UFC events
for Pride, and there was like a contractual squabble over
that whole thing as the UFC struggled to really be
able to pay fighters because they were off cable pay
per view and only on satellite, so they weren't really
raking in the kind of bucks to keep the top talent. Meanwhile,
Pride was just gobbling up anybody who had done anything

(31:37):
in UFC and throwing him in there with Japanese fighters
like a Fujiita and hoping for magic to strike like
it did with with Sakuraba.

Speaker 3 (31:44):
But yeah, that was also kind.

Speaker 8 (31:46):
Of strange real quick. I wish the film would have
gone in a little bit more on maybe the interesting
ties that I don't know how to say interesting ties
that Pride had because like, this is a company that
was basically ran by the Yukuza. Uh, there's some negotiations,

(32:06):
you know, the scenes that are there, and again, being
true to the documentary, I think that they, you know,
did a good job and replicating that, but I mean,
I would have loved for them to just include a
little bit of you know, real life history and the
fact that when you were negotiating with the people in Pride,
like probably wasn't quote unquote dangerous if you were a foreigner,

(32:31):
but like, I'm pretty sure that there was some discomfort
to be had and talking about getting more money, et cetera.

Speaker 6 (32:39):
Yeah, yeah, yeah, he's sending down so like a language barrier,
but it's it's not a language barrier, it's a fuck
you barrier, you know.

Speaker 8 (32:45):
I mean around this time, the owner of Pride, like
a couple of years before this, like, was found in
his office hanging from a noose.

Speaker 3 (32:54):
Yeah that was that was k One. Wasn't it wasn't
Oh that was k One.

Speaker 7 (32:57):
You're right, right, but but but here's the thing. They
all kind of run together. To me, the business was
basically ran similarly.

Speaker 6 (33:04):
Yeah, well went down. It actually collapsed. Pride collapsed and
lost a television deal because newspapers and magazines in Japan
started to publish articles about that. And the thing about
it is that everybody knows it in Japan, but you
can't confirm it. Once it's confirmed, everyone has to has
to run away from it and wipe their hands clean.
And therefore Pride was dead. One thing you do remember, boss,
was when UFC bought Pride. I remember you're saying for

(33:26):
some reason, you remember that.

Speaker 3 (33:27):
I do. I do remember that. And because wasn't that
It wasn't that Mike Mike crazy? Was that? Wasn't that
around brock Lessner's kind of two thousand. Yeah, didn't wasn't
that the right? Wasn't that the the unification match? Didn't
he have that unification match? Wasn't it the Pride former
Pride Championship and the UFC Championship that was being combined?

Speaker 8 (33:48):
No?

Speaker 6 (33:48):
No, no, they were because crow Cop was coming over
as part of the purchase and they were making the deal.
Came before the purchase, before the purchase, and I think
it of Noghera, whom.

Speaker 8 (33:57):
I think, uh, no, Ghara came after. I think what
you're thinking of is Quintin Jackson. He fought Dan Henderson.
I think that was after the purchase, and uh the
worst part is the UFC kind of dropped the ball
on that it was. The event was called Champion versus Champion,
But if you were a casual MMA fan, you wouldn't
know that Dan Henderson was there. I guess they called
it middleweight champion. We call it white heavy.

Speaker 3 (34:19):
It was it wasn't a heavyweight, right.

Speaker 6 (34:22):
So when I'm when I'm looking at this on Emily
Blunt Boss, I'm glad you brought her up because in
the documentary, I mean, Don is a strong character and
you get a lot of the same vibes, but you know,
Emily Blunt take takes it to a whole different level
in terms of like just she's not the she's not
the star of the documentary, but she is like very
much the star of the movie.

Speaker 3 (34:43):
Yeah.

Speaker 6 (34:44):
And I'm trying to like figure out, well, what is
it about what she did that that that that you
really appreciated. And I'm trying to figure out if that's
her channeling the dock or going beyond the dock.

Speaker 3 (34:56):
I mean, it's it's it's a how to describe it.
It's basically I saw her just being open. She was
just open. She was open to receiving whatever was happening
in the scene. Yeah, and she was then using it

(35:19):
and she was reacting to it, and she was you know,
it was a behavior thing, you know, her behavior was
so it felt more fluid than Dwayne's. Dwayne's like you
felt like Dwayne had a job to do in this movie,

(35:40):
like he had a job to do to be this
and this and this, and there wasn't as much there
were times, i mean you're talking about how I'll allow
the the advill moment, there to be almost a time
where he was open because it did feel it did
feel like it was ad libbed. And but she just

(36:02):
she was electric. She was electric. It was almost like
she was born to play this part. In many ways.
She was just on fire. And I don't yah, I
don't know what she was like in the documentary, but
she was. And this actually was a problem with me
again with the movie, is that I didn't like anybody. Yes,

(36:25):
I'm glad Mark Coleman. Yes, I'm like Mark Coleman. I'm
like Mark Coleman, I liked him. I'm like everyone else
sucks like I don't want to root for Mark Kerr.
He's a dick in many ways, and even when he
even when he gets sober, he's still a dick. And
she's awful, But she's at least entertaining because she's going

(36:46):
to go psycho. And you knew she was going to
go psycho, like you could. You could feel that, like
there was there was an energy right from she gets
on the screen. I was like, again, I said to myself,
I said, she's gonna go fucking Sharon Stone Casino in
this movie. But she's But I think she.

Speaker 6 (37:00):
Got stressed that awkwardness of being in the room when
he's trying to be a fighter.

Speaker 8 (37:05):
You know that.

Speaker 6 (37:07):
That's one cool thing about Smashing Machine is it really
showed you, like how impossible it is to pretend that
anything else comes first besides fighting and the drugs you
need to take in fight.

Speaker 7 (37:18):
Right real quick on that point.

Speaker 8 (37:20):
And this is my biggest takeaway, and this is something
that's taken me a very long time to understand about.
It's martial arts. It's the most selfish sport in the world.
You have to be inscredibly selfish. And I felt like
this movie actually drove that point home. And that was
one of my biggest takeaways was we're not talking about
the sport today in this movie because it's changed so much.

Speaker 7 (37:43):
I think they articulate that towards the end, but.

Speaker 8 (37:45):
The idea of what this sport is, I thought that
that got pulled pretty well in the movie, you know,
just sort of depicting the struggles in that moment where
she's in the locker room.

Speaker 7 (37:57):
I trained for a very brief time. I don't know
anything today.

Speaker 8 (38:02):
Anybody up the street could beat me up, but I
will say that when I did train, I had a
trainer that said, you know, there's three ways that you
can lose in the sport, it's t ko submission or
a decision. But what he wanted to drive home to
everyone was you can also lose by submission due to girlfriend.

(38:24):
And that was that was something that became like, I
just thought about that in my head when that scene's
playing out.

Speaker 6 (38:32):
Yeah, that's this movie gave us a first glimpse at that.
I remember thinking as a wrestling fan, lifelong wrestling fan
and knowing the struggles of pro wrestlers when it came
to you know, royds and painkillers and everything. That's that's
a problem unique to wrestling in that because it's fake,
they can't take injury time, you know, and they have
to constantly be these comic book superheroes that recover faster

(38:55):
than fast enough to stay on the road and stay earning.
I thought MMA fighters because a lot of these guys
collegiate wrestlers. I bet you didn't know Boss that Mark
Kerr was very competitive on the nineteen ninety two Olympic
track with Kurt Angle in the.

Speaker 3 (39:07):
Ninety six tracks as well.

Speaker 8 (39:08):
Not know that.

Speaker 3 (39:08):
I did not know that.

Speaker 6 (39:10):
Yes, they were basically rivals for that Olympic spot in
ninety six where Kurt won the gold and in the
Pan American Games as well. So all of these guys were,
you know, collegiate wrestlers at a high level, and that's
a pretty clean sport, you know, say what you will
about it. And and so I found myself thing, well,
at least these guys, you know, yeah, they're brutalizing themselves,
but they fight three times a year a ton of
time to recover that they're not going to have the

(39:31):
chemical dependencies. And then I see this fucking movie and
this guy is injecting new bane and one time he
says in the dock, I do it ten I do
it ten times a day. And the only reason he
can fight and deal with the riggers that it puts
in your body to train for a fight when your
body is that big, is to just stay so fucked up.
And that was like, oh God, this is going to

(39:52):
be just like pro wrestling, isn't it.

Speaker 3 (39:54):
And I don't know, TJ.

Speaker 6 (39:55):
I mean, we've lost some legendary fighters and it doesn't
end necessarily much differently than some of the sadder wrestling cases.

Speaker 8 (40:03):
No, I mean, I think pro wrestling is still much
more dangerous and harder on a person because of what
you mentioned what they go through night after night, but
the parallels between pro wrestling and MMA from a business
standpoint are too numerous to even throw your way in
an example. And ultimately, the men and women that sacrifice

(40:26):
their bodies for you know, the sport, it's the same.
It's it's not apples and oranges, it's apples, and it's
just apples apples.

Speaker 6 (40:37):
You know what I thought was strange shapy about the
ending of the film. It's like you see Mark Kerr
pushing the grocery card around and he's just a normal guy.
And then they built this title up on the screen
like he never made millions and now the guys make millions.
And at the end, they almost wanted me to feel
like this movie was about the explosion of mixed martial arts,
and it's like, no, it wasn't. It was about a

(40:58):
time period where all the biggest fights were in Japan
and it wasn't big, and it wouldn't get big for
so long after this. It was Oh, so I was
supposed to feel this whole time like Mark Kerr should
have made millions of dollars, he didn't have that many fights.

Speaker 8 (41:11):
Well again, I don't know numbers but Kerr was in
the one percent of MMA fighters getting paid at that time.

Speaker 3 (41:17):
Right he was, he was fine, he was his six
figures per fight, right, I mean, and I got that vibe.
I mean it came across that, you know, there there
are those there are times where where somebody, you know,
you make a movie about somebody and you're trying to
make them the person the subject of the movie more

(41:38):
relevant than they maybe were. I'm not saying he wasn't relevant,
but that's what it came across to me, as like
it just was like, this is a guy that you
that you you know that you should remember and da
da da dah. And I say to myself, look, if
I was meant to remember him, I remember him.

Speaker 6 (41:56):
Well, he's remembered because he led a camera film in
shooting up right right right.

Speaker 8 (42:04):
There's that, but also too, like I that that's my
biggest takeaway, Like I like Mark as a person, I
like Mark as a fighter. Sure we're not talking about
Mark cur if it isn't for this movie. And that's
sad because you know, right, he is a guy that is,
you know, a part of the the story and how
MMA got here. And I think that's that's probably why

(42:25):
I feel as good about everything as I do, because
in mixed martial arts, we don't reciprocate.

Speaker 7 (42:32):
Uh, that's not the right word. We don't. We don't.
We don't pay it back. We don't, we don't. There's
no reparations for these fighters that gave so much.

Speaker 8 (42:39):
Really and again Mark, I don't feel bad for Mark
during the time of his fighting career because he was
again probably one of the highest paid guys in all
of you know, mixed martial arts at the time. But today,
you know, he doesn't probably get a Hall of Fame
nod in the UFC like he did without this movie,
and he should.

Speaker 7 (42:58):
He's a he's a guy.

Speaker 8 (42:59):
I mean, you look at again, here's a parallel. The
WWE Hall of Fame is basically the pro wrestling Hall
of Fame. That's how it's viewed. The UFC Hall of
Fame is the mixed Martial Arts Hall of Fame. If
it's a UFC Hall of Fame, Mark Kurr doesn't belong
in there. But if it's an MMA Hall of Fame,
he does very much so, and you know, I'm happy

(43:21):
that at the end of the day, you have a
new generation of fight fans. I don't even know if
fight fans are going to see this movie. Apparently not
many people are. Unfortunately.

Speaker 3 (43:30):
Yeah, the UFC fanatic does not know this guy. They
don't know this era at all.

Speaker 8 (43:34):
And I just think it's good that, you know, in
twenty twenty five we stop and at least, you know,
pay homage to someone who was a very, very big
part of that scene.

Speaker 1 (43:46):
The Last fan wrestling podcast, the wrestling podcast that knows
the boys need their candy.

Speaker 2 (44:02):
It's the Lapsed Fan. Sick of the ads. Sign up
for ad free shows and even more content at patreon
dot com Slash the Lapsed Fan. He's an Lapsed fan

(44:29):
wrestling podcast with Jack and carn SEO and JP Soorro.

Speaker 6 (44:34):
He was someone who you know, epitomized Mark Coleman, kind
of did it first on Fry, kind of did it
before that to some degree. And they share some commonality
in terms of like the pipeline and who represented them
and got them into the UFC in the first place.
Is these these collegiate wrestlers of note and these tough
guys of note. But he was like this almost this
avatar of what the most bricked up wrestler you could

(44:54):
find could do in an MMA cage if you just
let him go off, you know, yeah, and just let
him use that natural strength. And he won two UFC
heavyweight tournaments and that was you know, that was certainly
something to hang your hat on in terms of his
UFC tenure. But he faced guys that did nothing when
he kept into Dan Bowbisch and even then it was kind.

Speaker 7 (45:10):
Of ranger Stott, Yeah, ranger Stott, Yeah, Greg, let's not
sleep on the second whatever er something. Oh my god,
it's so bad.

Speaker 6 (45:22):
So it's like you look at those opponents, it's like, Okay,
he didn't even you know, in the UFC at least
if because for purposes of the UFC Hall of Fame
data what has said, it's about what you did in
the UFC UH in a bride. He did, he did well,
but he kind of lost his most significant fights.

Speaker 8 (45:36):
I mean, so let me just say real quick, the
biggest accomplishment of Mark Kerr's UH career is he won
the Abu Dhabi World Championships, which that was a huge.

Speaker 3 (45:45):
Part of his hype.

Speaker 6 (45:45):
Yep, he was a wrestler that figured out how to
win a submission tournament. Yeah, interesting, okay, and he's really
kind of the only when was that.

Speaker 7 (45:54):
Two thousand one, two three, so after this the time
win of the movie, I think it could have been
ninety nine. Let me look that up.

Speaker 3 (46:03):
I got I got it, I got it.

Speaker 6 (46:04):
I got ninety nine two thousand and two thousand and one,
and he won absolutes as well as ninety nine kilograms
in two thousand and two thousand and one.

Speaker 3 (46:11):
It was a super fight he won.

Speaker 8 (46:13):
There's no one today that comes into Abu Dhabi with
the skill set that Mark Kerr had and even probably
wins a match, let alone yes winning his division and absolutes.

Speaker 6 (46:25):
And at that time, fans were such marks for this
idea that like someone can just come in not knowing
any martial arts skills and bulldoze these guys who were
able to convince people that they were tough martial artists
forever because they only interacted with their own kind. And
that was part of the huge appeal of like the

(46:45):
first I don't know twenty UFCS was it's like, Okay,
now here comes another specimen and we think that jiu
jitsu is the way, but here come a bunch of
wrestlers who aren't going to fall for it. So, now
wrestling is the way, and then Maury Smith comes around
kickbox who can block a takedown and kick a guy
in the fucking face. Or Pete Williams can kick Mark
Coleman in the fucking face. Now, oh, kickboxing is the way.

(47:08):
And so Mark Kerr was part of that whole hype
cycle of like, oh, here come, this is what the
UFC champion looks like. And the only reason that he
didn't when UFC one because he didn't know what the
fuck it was. If he knew, he would have he
would have won the whole thing.

Speaker 8 (47:19):
Two takeaways of what you just said, Jack makes me realize,
Like one, wrestling is a martial art.

Speaker 7 (47:25):
People don't like to call wrestling a martial art.

Speaker 8 (47:27):
I think it's sure the most important martial art for
any high level mixed martial artist. If you can wrestle,
you control so much of a match it's not even funny.
But the other thing is is like if I was
just a layman off the street didn't know anything about this,
I would be like, why is this movie about Mark
Kerr and not the guy who wins the whole Dan

(47:49):
Ran Prix, which when we talk about Coleman, I have
something that I hope I can say. He didn't tell
me not to say it, but we also haven't done
the interview yet. But whatever, it's tel have no sacred cast,
just Coleman's story and also to coleman story after this,
Like this guy's Coleman is supposed to be fighting again soon.

Speaker 7 (48:11):
He almost a movie.

Speaker 3 (48:13):
He's a movie. I mean, yeah, I got it. That's
what I was gonna say. Like it actually seems like
he's a little more interesting of a subject because I
was like, well, here's this guy who's like they keep
talking about him being old and that he's like coming
out and like, you know, I'm like, that's the Rocky
story right there. That's what people want to see.

Speaker 8 (48:32):
Well, he he had just lost a bunch of fights.
I think he lost three in a row, exiting the
UFC and going to Pride.

Speaker 3 (48:39):
And that's why you're so dramatic that it was in
the tournament because he.

Speaker 8 (48:46):
My favorite part of the movie is when Ryan Baterer
does win the Grand Prix is Mark Coleman and tries
to do his mimic the h celebration. That was so
good because that's the thing too. If you look at
Ryan Baters's performance in this movie. And then see the
way that he celebrates, You're like, is that a bad
take that they just actually put in? Why did he

(49:06):
almost fly over the top rope and freak out? That
is exactly how Mark Coleman celebrating his pride Grand Prix.
And to me, that tells you the actual personality of
Mark Coleman. He's a wild man. He's crazy. Like, yes,
he's composed and put together, and Ryan Bader did a
great job at playing those scenes.

Speaker 7 (49:23):
But Mark Coleman's a maniac.

Speaker 3 (49:25):
Yes, total not He'll run into a burning building. Literally
he did. He saved people from a burning building and
almost died. Yeah, that he is. He is the movie
for sure?

Speaker 7 (49:33):
What did he almost killed himself?

Speaker 8 (49:35):
Because I don't know how old he is today, but
like he's incredibly fit and his body despite being you know,
in great shape, Like he's an older gentleman who's been
through a lot.

Speaker 7 (49:47):
He can't stop working out. He got sober.

Speaker 8 (49:49):
I think the way that he stays sober is by
shadow boxing and posting it on Facebook, because that's all
he does for hours, hours and like he's he shudn't
even be thinking about fighting, let alone actually pursuing a
fight with Vandalay Silva.

Speaker 7 (50:05):
It's crazy.

Speaker 8 (50:07):
You know. I don't pay attention to that stuff so
much because, uh, you know, MMA is such a week in,
week out sport, Like I don't really look more than
two weeks ahead in time, but like Coleman is actually
trying to do like bare knuckle fights and he he's crazy.

Speaker 6 (50:26):
What did you think of the guy who did the
Mark Coleman roll?

Speaker 3 (50:30):
Boss? I thought it was great. Do you know that
that guy has never acted in his life? I I, I, well,
I looked him up after the movie and I realized
that he was that he's a fighter, he's a real fighter, yeah,
and that this is his first movie, and I thought
he gave.

Speaker 6 (50:45):
Where did this come from? I mean, this is this
guy at MMA, Like it was kind of a joke,
Like he had no personality at all. He was a
great fighter, so we got a lot of opportunities. He
was always in he was always in big fights.

Speaker 3 (50:54):
But he was this dry.

Speaker 6 (50:56):
You couldn't get a SoundBite out of that guy if
you hit him with a taser. And then he's a
fucking great actor. I can't believe that. Yeah, I mean
he gave he gave a very like I I. He
came across like a pro. Honest to god, he was,
he was, I I. His face looks so familiar that
I was like, he's going to be somebody that I know,
Like I know this guy.

Speaker 3 (51:16):
But I looked him up. I mean this will tell
you actually too. I actually I didn't look at math
and I looked up during the movie because there were
times I was kind of like, yeah, okay, I got
time to do something else here, and and yeah I was.

Speaker 1 (51:30):
I was.

Speaker 3 (51:30):
I was like, wow, this is fucking here. We get
a little a little wundiicnt here, a little alex right
going on here, you can put it that way.

Speaker 6 (51:38):
I thought, I don't know, TJ if you would agree
with this. But and I've heard a lot of other
people say this, so I feel like I'm I'm on
most people's page. Knowing Mark Kerr in his career and
knowing what he looks like in this in the documentary.
I don't know why Rock had to get that big,
because he is way bigger than Mark Kerr was.

Speaker 8 (51:57):
Yeah, I mean Kerr was a hulking figure. I mean,
he'll forever be known as a smashing machine. But that
was just one of his nicknames. I remember before it
was called a specimen before he changed it, and like
maybe it was just to drive that point across of
like what he looked like compared to some of the

(52:19):
other athletes. But Coleman fights wereri Caardo Marius, I believe
in in the documentary and h I mean that guy
looked to be just as big as Kerr, you know,
hulking Brazilian, but like he did, and that actually you
mentioned how big the rock was, Like it was interesting
to me because that was one thing that I walked
away with as almost a put off, because yes, there

(52:40):
were a lot of big wrestlers that looked tredded, and
Mark Kerr did look that way. But if you look
too much like a bodybuilder, you can't fight. You have
no cardio, you're not agile.

Speaker 3 (52:51):
And I was gonna say that, except I'm gonna say
just sorry. But like I remember one time I asked you, Jack,
I said, well, why don't these guys look like wrestlers? Like,
why they look so fucking because a lot of guys
like I remember Lesner specifically going back to Lesner watch
because he's like the only person I probably saw fight
multiple times Lesner looked kind of flabby when he when

(53:11):
he was when he was a mixed martial art artist.
And I remember you told me it's because they can't.
You can't be that tight, you can't be that that
kind of bodybuilder size. It just doesn't it wouldn't work.
And that was the only thing going through my mind.
Watching Dwayne in the movie.

Speaker 8 (53:31):
Well that was one thing too, And I credit The
Rock for this, but like he took a lot of
the sort of idiosyncrasies and habits of Mark Kerr and
you know, actually tried to.

Speaker 7 (53:43):
Play those roles.

Speaker 8 (53:43):
Like there was a point where he's doing a press
conference and he says something and he has an ohio
accent just like Mark Kerr does, and I thought that
was great, Like I was, I was really impressed by that.
It shouldn't be impressed by someone speaking uh, you know,
oh high accent, but whatever. But the other thing was,
and maybe this was to his size. I was when

(54:06):
Kerr or when the Rock was hitting pads Man, he
his striking looks so much like Mark Kerr's and I
was like, well, maybe it's because he's so big, And
then I was like, no, Mark Kerr striking isn't that
rigid because he's so big. It's because Mark Kerr is
not a good striker.

Speaker 3 (54:22):
Yeah.

Speaker 6 (54:23):
It was very elementary, so it's easy for him to
mimic in a way. Yeah, yeah, yeah, but I guess
the physique. The physique was crazy, Like I don't know, man,
like this guy like you know, rock, Like he knows
how big he can get. He saw it in G
I Joe and he's you know, your or your whole
life on a scientist, fast, Fast.

Speaker 3 (54:43):
And Furious movies all the whole.

Speaker 7 (54:45):
Well, he's gotten smaller, right like when he did this
time he was.

Speaker 8 (54:49):
Yeah, but like I just watched a YouTube video about
like his shrinking size and people were talking about like
that was the other thing too. The film doesn't talk
about steroids.

Speaker 7 (54:58):
Really at all.

Speaker 3 (54:59):
It's all pain ca Yeah. Yeah.

Speaker 8 (55:01):
In Kerr when he got knocked out in that Pride
fight that I talked about, like, man, I know it's
not in the documentary, but I would almost have loved to,
you know, see that in like the PostScript of the movie,
because he came back to Pride in February two thousand
and six or seven, No, February two thousand and four.

Speaker 7 (55:20):
Yeah, and he looked like he looked worse.

Speaker 8 (55:24):
Than Hogan did when Hogan was off the sauce, you
know what I mean, Like, it's just like, what's going
on here?

Speaker 7 (55:29):
That's not Mark Kerr?

Speaker 6 (55:30):
Like he yeah, wow, yeah, for sure he he definitely
leaned out. But you know, that's what I think is
powerful about Mark Kerr's era is it's like we still
hadn't gotten past the idea that the toughest guy looks
like a bodybuilder. It was still alive. People still wanted
to believe it, even if the earliest UFC's kind of

(55:52):
spoke against that, and not until like Mark Coleman went down.
Did I think MMA really do away with the idea
that the guy who can look most like a pro
wrestling comic book character is going to win the fights?

Speaker 8 (56:06):
Yeah, but I mean we still see it though today
the general public like, what if the Mountain fought Connor McGregor,
who wins?

Speaker 3 (56:14):
Oh yeah.

Speaker 6 (56:14):
I'm not saying people have fully put it down, but
the idea that anybody would have questioned Connor having a
chance against the Mountain in nineteen ninety seven, forget about it.

Speaker 3 (56:22):
Peop would have laughed out of the room.

Speaker 6 (56:23):
Now it's like feasible because people have seen how how
effective smaller fighters can be, but and just how ineffective
massive fighters can be, and how kind of clumsy and
foolish they can look.

Speaker 8 (56:34):
But even the smaller fighters want to be bigger. I
mean we talked about horses beat he beats soccer raba
and then test positive, the poster child for being a
smaller guy.

Speaker 7 (56:44):
Even he got popperoids.

Speaker 6 (56:45):
Yeah, once they make millions, they suddenly get those traps.

Speaker 7 (56:49):
Did it?

Speaker 3 (56:50):
Did it? Also? Did it bother or either of you
guys watching the movie that a fifty three year old
man is playing a thirty four year old man, because
it's interesting because I don't think about it because it
actually there were times where I mean especially I'm looking
at some photos right now of of it's like if
you look at if you look at the this is

(57:10):
on I guess on Facebook. I'm just I just googled
Mark Kerr and they get a photo up next with
looking at him in ninety seven Mark Kerr and Dwayne
in the movie, and it's like you look at him,
it's like holy shit, like there's there's just you know,
he looks too old.

Speaker 8 (57:26):
Well, that was one thing I thought about like when
you said, like the prosthetics and stuff on his face,
was it that necessary? I actually do think it was necessary,
especially in the latter part of the movie when kerr
shaves his head, because I felt like, if if the
prosthetics weren't there, when the Rock is bald playing Mark Curry,

(57:46):
he's just.

Speaker 7 (57:47):
Going to look like the Rock.

Speaker 3 (57:48):
He actually to me the kind of did.

Speaker 7 (57:51):
But sure he did.

Speaker 8 (57:52):
But like without the facial you know, prosthetics, I think
it would have been to the point where I couldn't
suspend my own disbelief.

Speaker 3 (58:01):
He just looked weird on a dead He doesn't, I
don't think. And then but looking at Mark kerr Att
at that age during that time, pered he doesn't look weird.
But but but the Rock looks weird. He just looks
like it. It looks again, he looks like the croc. Yeah.

Speaker 6 (58:16):
You only times he looked like Mark Kurt to me
and I could see the vision they rafter is when
he's wearing a baseball hat in thee when he's got
I was like, oh my god, that actually looks like
him a lot from the side from the profile. But
there's something about the shape of Rock's head and I
think the shape of his eyes that just can't look
like Mark Kurr, no matter what Mark kurthink is Irish
and Puerto Rican, I think, and you know Rock Sam

(58:39):
Owen and an African American, Like, it's just I just
it's gonna he's going to.

Speaker 3 (58:43):
Struggle to look like that. But it's it is true.
I think that the age difference, it's like even the
even the I don't want to see wrinkles, but just
you know, the patterns on the face, like aren't going
to be able to look like a thirty four year
old too.

Speaker 6 (58:57):
Yeah, it's it's it is, uh, it is kind of alarming.
Some scenes still, like what he has the Kangle had
on backwards too, sipping the beard that looked like him too.
They even recreated the bathtub in the fucking in the
Smashing Machine that looks exactly like the bathtub and in
the documentary.

Speaker 8 (59:13):
Yeah, so Kerr told me that the house that they
filmed in that were actually three rooms in a movie
studio that they built, and they took photos of his
room in stills from the documentary and tried to replicate
everything that they could from those photos and from those scenes.

(59:35):
And that's the other thing too, Like I look at
you know, Mark Kerr's story and like I'm more you know,
intrigued about what Mark Kerr thought about seeing these scenes
you know, play out, rather than you know, was this
a good movie?

Speaker 3 (59:50):
Is the rock?

Speaker 8 (59:51):
You know, I'm a dramatic actor. Now it must have
been incredibly hard. And I talked to Mark a little
bit about this, but incredibly hard for him to actually
see this he played out like he ends up marrying
down in real life and they have a son together,
and you know, they got divorced, and like, man, I
just I don't know what it would be like to

(01:00:11):
just sit back and watch your life, you know, play
out like that. The documentary is one thing, but to
see a dramatic reproduction of it must be just crazy.

Speaker 3 (01:00:21):
That's a good point.

Speaker 6 (01:00:22):
The documentary comes out after they had been married, so
there's subtitles at the end that tells you that or
title screen, but it's before they got divorced. So it's
like kind of not a happy ever after, but like okay,
like he just wasn't. He wasn't he was made to
choose this woman over fighting, you know. That's that's kind
of what you come away with on the dock and
now knowing that they got divorced, and he's kind of

(01:00:43):
just you know, pushing a shopping guard in Phoenix. It's like, oh,
and actually the story ended up being something quite a
bit different, which.

Speaker 7 (01:00:49):
Is real quick.

Speaker 8 (01:00:52):
Getting getting back to Baitter in his performance of Yeah, Coleman,
I was talking to Kerr about this in Kerr said,
you know, Bader did a great job, but he said
the best thing that he did was play a version
of Mark Coleman that Mark Coleman thinks he actually is.

Speaker 3 (01:01:09):
Wow, I love that, mummy. That's a great line. Ah,
that's hilarious.

Speaker 6 (01:01:16):
One thing I will say about Coleman's portrayal, as positive
as it is. You know, the the scene where he
goes to see Mark in his hospital room after he's overdosed,
and he's you know, saying, I wouldn't have flown all
the way to uh whatever. He says Arizona if I
didn't care about you. Mark Coleman is did not fly

(01:01:36):
to Mark Kerr. In the documentary, it's two random friends
that they introduced to you from Mark Kurr's wrestling.

Speaker 3 (01:01:43):
Days that fly to see him. Shit.

Speaker 6 (01:01:45):
Yeah, And I think that that's kind of it's okay,
because you want that's a powerful scene that you know
he's in he's in, you know, in in on his deathbed,
really in hospice and in the hospital, and you don't
want to go through all the rigamarole of introducing these
two news.

Speaker 3 (01:02:00):
I'm gonna say you can do that in documentary because
you can. You can very easily establish two new people
who are just there for whatever reason because it's it's
it's real life. But you can't do that for a
movie without like wondering, well, wait a minute, why did
you introduce them? And they're not going to fucking be
in the rest of the.

Speaker 6 (01:02:16):
Movie, right, And I think that definitely would have run
that risk if they stay faithful to that. But I
think it's I think it's the best, one of the
best scenes that Bater pulls off. And it gets probably
to the point that Mark's trying to make when he says,
Bater plays the Mark Coleman, Mark Coleman wishes he was.
It's like, yeah, Mark Coleman wasn't even their bedside.

Speaker 8 (01:02:35):
No, that's in getting back of Coleman story, Like, I
don't know what Coleman's home life was at that time,
but like it didn't end well. I know that, you know,
and and he's battled with sobriety and you know, uh
pretty again.

Speaker 7 (01:02:50):
I I just I would. I guess I want to
see the Hammer that that movie. I want to see.

Speaker 3 (01:02:54):
It has to happen. Yeah, it has to happen.

Speaker 1 (01:02:57):
You know.

Speaker 6 (01:02:58):
One thing I think too that the film reminded me
about that that that smashing machine. The documentary hit me
hard with because both Coleman's wife and Kerr's girlfriends say
something similar when they both get into fighting. It's so
new and so nascent, and there's so many overmatched guys
that are that feel like tough guys, and we're in

(01:03:19):
the UFC that a guy like Coleman, a guy like
Kirk can just run training these motherfuckers and destroy them.
And these girlfriends fucking love it. They love that there's
no risk. They love that they're with the guy that
can go in and collect one hundred grand and not
even have a scratch on him and just pound people
and you feel like it's gonna last forever. And then

(01:03:39):
when they when they lose, when they're left limp on
the canvas, all of a sudden, the uh, the the
the bargain they thought they signed up for. By you know,
falling in love with a cage fighter is much different.
And now they're hooked in And I feel like that
That's something Emily Blunt got across pretty well. Like she
was like happy to be the girlfriend she knew how

(01:04:03):
to be the supportive girlfriend of a guy who wins
no clue how to do it for a guy who's
losing and who's got nothing to show for it but
a drug addiction.

Speaker 3 (01:04:11):
Well, I also love too that she said, Like there's
a line in the movie where she says, I don't
know how to like I don't know how to how
to be with him. I forget sober because I all
I know is how to take care of him. And
I was like, holy shit, Like that's and that's that's
not on the doc that's Emily Blunt yet that or
the scripture that's like, but that's like but that, to me,

(01:04:33):
is is a symptom of the disease of being the
significant other of a fighter. You know. It's like you
you know, once once that's not there too, you know,
once they they in a way have some other purpose
and you know, you know, or.

Speaker 8 (01:04:50):
You mentioned that JP and I I think that is
incredibly profound that you think that way, because it took
me a long time to ever think about that. And
and one thing I will say is I think that
women that fight are much better off than men in
their career post their career, because, like I said, this
is an incredibly selfish sport. But like I've talked to
women that fight, I worked for Invicta for like seven

(01:05:13):
years all women promotion, and like it really put it
into perspective to me what it must be like to
sort of be a more evolved different person and also
be because I mean, you're a significant other one, you're
a fighter as well, But women when they fight have
to be cutting weight while cooking food for their kids.
Like I can't imagine cooking food while you're starving yourself.

Speaker 3 (01:05:35):
And sexist not making the fucking food.

Speaker 7 (01:05:39):
That's what they say to me when I interview them,
you know what I mean.

Speaker 9 (01:05:42):
And I have husbands, a lot of them have correct
correct But I will just say that, like I feel
like the significant others, like I said, this is the
most selfish sport in the world.

Speaker 3 (01:05:53):
Uh.

Speaker 8 (01:05:55):
To to go through that and then to have those
ups and downs and changes, Uh Yeah, it's it's definitely hard.
I mean, Coleman still holding on, you know what I mean,
Coleman still wants to fight. He doesn't really have anything
other than fighting. And that's the one thing I will
say about Kerr, Like I don't know if it's because
it's this far removed from his career, but like seems

(01:06:16):
to be doing really well. When I knew the movie
was coming out, I knew that, you know, we were
going to probably hear from Kerr. But when they announced
him at the UFC in Newark, where he was going
to be getting his you know, Hall of Fame nod
later this year, I didn't know what they were going
to show on television. I didn't know if it was
going to be a horrific image. I didn't know if

(01:06:38):
he was going to be in the building because maybe
they couldn't show him on TV. Like I was kind
of prepared for his life to be sort of a
train wreck. And it's not like I think he's doing
much better than Coleman is today.

Speaker 6 (01:06:51):
You know, isn't that amazing? Think I'm so glad you
said that. Yeah, because anyone who sees this film would
come away with the exact opposite impression of where they
were headed. But that's not reality, you know, that's just yeah,
it doesn't it doesn't work that way. That just the
guy who who figures it out in his athletic career
is going to figure it out after his athletic career too.
And it's the fact exact opposite.

Speaker 8 (01:07:12):
If you retire from mixed martial arts or get cut
from the UFC and we never hear from you again,
that means your story is probably good, you know what
I mean, It's that's really true so many guys. I mean,
when's the last time Coleman fought? Like it has to
be over a decade, maybe almost fifteen twenty years. But like,
the simple fact is that this is a sport that

(01:07:35):
when you are all in, it's very very hard to
ever not be involved with it in a negative light,
sometimes a positive light, but more more a negative light.

Speaker 6 (01:07:48):
Sounds like pro wrestling to me, it's very wrestling. I
remember when I became acquainted with the vicissitudes of MMA journalism,
I'm like, oh, I know what this is. This is
like remember the guy who did two epic things and
now he's in a dui and now he you know,
got shot or now you know there's like a domestic
or something and that that's how they ride off.

Speaker 3 (01:08:10):
You know. I mean, and if what you're you're saying
about Coleman too, it's like, look at that. He can't
even get out of the fucking business, you know, the
simenus and there's this is there. I even Dwayne says
it in the movie. I don't know if this is
in the documentary or not, but he talks about the
the high and it isn't the duck too, and it's
like that's again, it's very wrestling. I can see definitely

(01:08:31):
the similarities between uh, Dwayne and Mark Kerr. That's part
of why The Smashing Machine was a success too. To
me that the documentary was because they happened upon a
they happened to spotlight a fighter who embodied smash mouth.
We can get the blood in there and everything, we
can get that across. But he was also you know,
intellectual about what he was doing. You know, you're not
going to get Mark cur to sit there and say

(01:08:51):
it's it's man against man. And sometimes what a profound
rush you feel when you feel a guy give and
you know, Mark Kerr can be kind of flower in.

Speaker 6 (01:09:00):
His description of what he was doing in there. The
scene of him in the doctor's office talking to that
woman who's horrified that that's in the dock. He he
does just drop everything and try to give her a
very like calm and measured and polite case for why
this is not, you know, the barbaric thing it appears
to be.

Speaker 7 (01:09:17):
So you know, real quick.

Speaker 8 (01:09:19):
I'm curious if the documentary happens, if MMA was as
successful in the States as it wasn't in Pride, because
I think figures like Mark Kerr were very accessible to
anybody here in the States because there was a disassociation
of like what it is they were doing. They would
go to Japan, like the biggest star in Pride or

(01:09:39):
in Japan's you know, Fighting Boom was Bob sapp Like
he was a huge star, like yes making uh, I
mean they had him make an album like I Can't Sing,
had you know, serial made after him.

Speaker 3 (01:09:55):
He would go cover of time.

Speaker 8 (01:09:57):
Yeah, like he would be ma by everybody in Japan
and then would come back to Seattle and just walk
around and if anyone looked at him, it's because he
was a hulking figure, not because they recognized him.

Speaker 6 (01:10:08):
Yeah, that's the mystique of these guys going to Japan
is a huge part of what you're saying. TJ absolutely
get it.

Speaker 8 (01:10:15):
If Kurt was doing this in the UFC, I don't
know if that documentary ever gets made.

Speaker 6 (01:10:20):
No, I don't think it does. I think, well, I
think a couple of things. One if if the UFC
was as big in the United States and this time
period as Pride was in Japan, and they don't get
that kind of access. First of all, right, yeah, I think,
I mean, yep, yep, be right, because they're there the
documentary crew and Smashing Machine is ringside shooting all marks fights.
They're not using Pride's video uh us UFC's video, which

(01:10:43):
they would never get permissioned for, I don't think later.

Speaker 3 (01:10:45):
But it happened at a time.

Speaker 6 (01:10:47):
This is important to point out, this documentary Kurt at
a time when while these guys could make big money
for a one off fight, they were still kind of
like c D list athletes. This was very much an
off brand sport and so low budget documentarians could really
get access to the most famous guys, like around the Clock.
There was one called Rights of Passage. There was one

(01:11:08):
called Bad Blood about the Tito Wartez Ken Shamrock feud.
There was some there were a couple of other documentaries
at the time that just got amazing access to who
you would think as an outsider, are these like un
you know, unapproachable superstar fighters. But when you realize the
economics of the business at the time were such that no,
like whatever, like you could just go to it. You
could just go to an MMA gym and just hang

(01:11:29):
around and like Ken SHAMROCK's in there, and it's not
really it's not really a big deal. Not to say
the documentarians Bind Smashing Machine didn't have to do some
kind of you know, planning, logistics and credentialing to get
the access that they did. But you couldn't even start
making this documentary today you couldn't know.

Speaker 8 (01:11:44):
And that's the thing too, there's no real like Wrestling
with Shadows documentary in the MMA scene.

Speaker 7 (01:11:50):
Like that's one thing.

Speaker 8 (01:11:51):
Maybe it's because no one was really interested, but the
UFC was never cooperative with anybody about giving that sort
of access to so like it's very that you ever
see anything like this with the UFC's like official blessing
the way they had it with Pride.

Speaker 6 (01:12:07):
It was such a part of the magic, wasn't it
TJ Like this idea that these American superstar fighters who
you first heard about on UFC pay per views in
America were going to Japan where every fighter you ever
heard of, and even the ones you heard of just
sort of like mystical figures in Brazil and Japan were
all going there and all colliding and it's happening on
a different time zone and results are trickling in just

(01:12:28):
in text form and you had to wait weeks to
see the video. That was a huge part of why Yeah,
this era is so why a documentarian I think would
would be like, I'm going to Japan, you know what
I mean?

Speaker 8 (01:12:39):
Well, I mean even after MMA blew up here to
get Pride was sometimes difficult, Like they launched their Bushido series,
which was like their their lighter weights, and in demand
pay per view this was like two thousand and six seven.
In demand pay per view didn't want to carry it,
and the only television distribution they had at the time

(01:13:02):
was Direct TV for that that event, and it was
on a two month delay. Two months they showed the
Yeah Grand Prix two months and it's like, as an
MMA fan, like you weren't gonna you know, wait that long.
You were gonna get the spoilers and whatnot. But it's like, uh,
even even though Pride did have a television deal, it

(01:13:24):
was still delayed. It was very far to uh you know,
not see those results. I mean, this was such an
internet sport at the time. But like when when this
documentary is being filmed, if you went up to the
average person on the street, like I think there was
some cachet with the name, you know, Ultimate Fighting much
more than say UFC, but I think most people would

(01:13:46):
have said, oh, that was.

Speaker 7 (01:13:47):
That sport, that's John McCain killed, you know, something like that.

Speaker 6 (01:13:51):
No, like non a, they called it NHB as often
as they called it MMA back then.

Speaker 8 (01:13:55):
Oh yeah, you know, do you know where the term
mixed martial arts came from? There's two different stories, just
like there is eight different people that said they designed
the UFC's octagon.

Speaker 3 (01:14:04):
But do you know Blatnik take credit correct.

Speaker 8 (01:14:06):
Yeah, blad Nick took credit for it and sorted big
doan McCarthy and the idea to call it mixed martial
Mom did too, I mean she probably did.

Speaker 7 (01:14:14):
I believe her.

Speaker 8 (01:14:16):
The The only reason they coined that name is because
they wanted to get it legalized and no holds barred
doesn't sound great, but getting a license to be a
mixed martial arts promoter and that sounds okay.

Speaker 6 (01:14:26):
Also, also it's the name of my own personal property,
tam faith In. The ultimate irony is there were always
holds barred. Oh yes, like eye gouging and fishing.

Speaker 7 (01:14:40):
Yeah, kerr by uh put in his eye socket.

Speaker 6 (01:14:47):
That's That's the only fight ever. I think I could
be wrong, the only fight ever, boss that is listed
as a victory via chin to the eye. Just thinking
about it, I mean, hovering over your opponent and you
dig your chin and was eyesaw it till he taps out.

Speaker 8 (01:15:02):
Fuck me and told me that was a result. I
would have thought it would have been your rye of
favor in his chin.

Speaker 3 (01:15:09):
Or Vince's gin. Yeah.

Speaker 6 (01:15:11):
Yeah, But and that was the thing for these massive
wrestlers who were just like seeing if they could make
fighting work at that time period was it was like
there weren't enough rules yet there weren't. And they make
a point about this they talk about I thought it
was great that they actually included this in the film.
I think the general moviegoers like who the fuck cares
like what position his heads in if you throw a
knee on the ground. But they put it in the film,

(01:15:32):
I give them credit, and it is it is a
huge part of the story. They took head butts away
from Mark Coleman, they took head butts away from Mark curR.
They took head butts away from these ultrapower for wrestlers who,
no matter how good the other guy was, they could
get them on their back, and if you can head
butt them from close quarters, you can start a whole
chain of events that gets you to victory. But if
you can't headbutt, all of a sudden, your weapons have

(01:15:53):
to shift, and you have to develop other kinds of
punching techniques, and you have to position your body differently
to be effective.

Speaker 3 (01:16:00):
You can just smash your head.

Speaker 8 (01:16:01):
I don't remember if this is in the documentary, but
Boss says it in The Smashing Machine, which, by the way,
I just thought it was awesome that they had Boss
play himself that he's got everything you.

Speaker 7 (01:16:12):
To know about Boss.

Speaker 8 (01:16:14):
The there's a scene where they're training and Boss says, oh,
you get him down, and then once you're down, you
just do whatever, And that's really kind of what the
wrestlers were doing. You know, Like Boss was also just
this incredibly scientific fighter ahead of his time when it
came to, you know, coming up with disciplines and stuff.
But like that was kind of what it was at

(01:16:37):
the time. Like if a Kerr or a Coleman got
you down, good luck getting up.

Speaker 3 (01:16:43):
Yeah. Yeah.

Speaker 6 (01:16:44):
And and the thing is they could damage you without
having to learn ground and pound. Really they they could
just head butt you, and they could just torture you
with their chin, and they could they could knee you
in positions that you can see guys anymore. Kerr need
the shit out of people from side mount. That was
the position he was always going for because he was

(01:17:05):
very effective there.

Speaker 7 (01:17:07):
What's funny is you can't even need someone in the
head from side mount in modern mixed martial arts.

Speaker 3 (01:17:11):
No, you can't.

Speaker 6 (01:17:11):
You can't need munless they're standing in the head and
it's it's huge. I mean, if those things didn't change,
I'm not sure that so many of these wrestlers would
have been gassed and sitting ducks for striking artists on
the other side of a couple of takedowns to the
degree they ended up being.

Speaker 3 (01:17:25):
But that's all what if MMA.

Speaker 6 (01:17:29):
Geek stuff. But you know, Boss, I think was great.
One thing that's in the film that's not in the documentary,
needless to say, is Mark Kerr rushing to the rescue
with a sick hypodermic needle to save Boss.

Speaker 3 (01:17:40):
Oh yeah, yeah, how funny is that to watch Boss
pretend that that happened.

Speaker 8 (01:17:44):
Well, they had to have something added there so they
could not talk about Rika Rodriguez.

Speaker 6 (01:17:51):
Right, who was training with Mark Kerr and turned out
to be a total liability for his camp. He disappears.
They talk about this in Smashing Machine a little bit.
He doesn't show up for a particular trading session and
Mark's badmouth in him. And they show Rico like dancing
with someone pulling a top down and stuff.

Speaker 8 (01:18:07):
And again this is my memory from twenty, you know,
some years ago. But doesn't Kerr go into Boss's office
and say, I think I need to ask you to
beat up my friend.

Speaker 6 (01:18:16):
Yes, And it's an extra it's an extra scene. It's
not in the but yeah, deleted scene. You can tell
that they were thinking about doing a whole side story
about Rico, but he just ends up being a background
character in the training scenes.

Speaker 8 (01:18:29):
And Rico's story is amazing too, Like another movie is
a phenomenal fighter balloons up to like three hundred pounds,
not in the good way and still almost beats one
of the top heavyweights at the time. But yeah, So
I interviewed Kerr in July, June, maybe May, and I

(01:18:51):
ended up put my foot in my mouth because I
was like.

Speaker 7 (01:18:52):
Who plays Rico in the movie? He's like, oh, you'll
have to find out. I found out nobody.

Speaker 3 (01:19:00):
Finally got it, finally got him back. Yeah, Rika, Wow,
what a story.

Speaker 6 (01:19:04):
So much of that comes rushing back when you watch
this stuff. Well, I guess it's time for final thoughts, gentlemen.
Rock has gone for it, boss, he has. He has
sought a textured, deep performance. Man, Can I picture him
watching Smashing Machine and the Gears turning in his opportunistic head.
He he thanked everybody with radical empathy whatever that means.

(01:19:27):
Do you have radical empathy for him? Despite the fact
that you didn't do too well at the box office?

Speaker 3 (01:19:31):
Did he? Did he do something special here? I think
that audiences can expect just a great overall entertaining movie.
Well that box has checked. How about others? It's a
solid effort I can't deny that it's a solid effort. Yeah,
if you came here.

Speaker 6 (01:19:50):
Thinking we're just gonna shot on Rock's performance, you're gonna
I'm sorry, No, it's not.

Speaker 3 (01:19:53):
It's not justified. I I I I think it is good.
I think it's very good. I think, especially for him,
it is very very good. I also think he should
abide by his own words and know your role, shut
your mouth and just be you know, stop going for awards.

(01:20:15):
I just don't think. I mean, it's just it's just
not I don't know. Listen, maybe it is in the
card down the line. I don't know. I don't think
it's in this one. I'll be surprised. I would be
surprised given all the other elements that come in, because
it's not just about your performance. There are other elements

(01:20:35):
that come into play. It is box office. Not necessarily
always box office, but box office does have some elements sometimes,
especially on a movie this early. I think, in my opinion,
I just yeah, I don't think. I don't think it's
going to pan out for him. I think the director
is going to get some stuff. He's already gotten some stuff.

(01:20:56):
But even then, I don't know. I think it's it,
it shoots, it's filmed like you would expect a movie
like this be filmed. It's not. There's nothing really surprising
about it except for that fucking jazz music. Yeah, yeah,
I agree.

Speaker 6 (01:21:09):
I found myself engrossed in it, and it's impossible for
me to decouple my MMA fandom from the reason I
was engrossed in it. But I did appreciate how it
got at this kind of like archetype that we're seeing now.
And I don't know if this was intentional or not,
but I think the character he plays, and the character
Marker was, is very much like this a stand in

(01:21:31):
for this modern, like hyper masculine kind of guy who
also wants like French vanilla creamer, you know, Like he's
he's pissed off at Starbucks because they, you know, they
won't won't serve him because he's got a gun on
his hip or something. But he's at Starbucks, you know.
So there's like that softness too, I feel like, and

(01:21:53):
just the way he deals with the domestic tensions with
Emily Blunt, and just how he's just like trying so
hard to pretend that he's not this powder keg, you know,
and trying to contort his his his instincts to fit
this doom domestics CID scenario, just so he doesn't have
to be party to a failed relationship.

Speaker 3 (01:22:14):
There is I'll tell you what that is something because
there were so many moments in the movie where I
thought to myself and I mean, this could be a
testament to both Dwayne and the director. But there were
many moments when they were having their their their quarrels
in in the home and I'm like, he's gonna hit her.

(01:22:36):
He's gonna fucking wail on her any moment now, it's And.

Speaker 6 (01:22:39):
The only reason he doesn't is because he wants to
tell himself a story about himself, and.

Speaker 3 (01:22:43):
Now he's not that guy. And that's a that's that's it.
That is one of the one of the most effective
parts of the movie is that it really I I
I sat there the borderline horrified that that that it
was gonna happened, That he was just gonna unload on
her at some point, absolutely, and.

Speaker 6 (01:23:04):
I did that's what most movies would do, and this didn't.
And I think, you know, even though that's probably just
a happy accident, because they were being so faithful to
the documentary, and Kurr doesn't. Kerr actually is a little
harder on Don in the Dock and a little more
dismissive of her than Rock's portrayal, but he doesn't get
violent with her. And I think that kind of ends
up being a pretty cool part of the movie, honestly,
that it doesn't just end up with this guy who
falls prey to his demons and takes it out and

(01:23:26):
his girlfriend. And in fact, Emily Blunt is the one
that kind of does more violence at.

Speaker 8 (01:23:30):
The end of the day of the guy than he
does exactly exactly you think Don is telling the country that.

Speaker 7 (01:23:37):
Emily Blunt played her in a movie.

Speaker 3 (01:23:39):
I don't think she's leaving the house for a couple
of months, No, right, yeah, I'm sure. I'm sure she is.
She is disconnecting herself as much as possible from this movie.
But if she was driven to drink because he was
famous for six fights in Japan, can you imagine this?
I mean, good good luck to I don't know what
her situation is, but I don't know. I don't think
it's an unflattering portray but it's definitely it's definitely not

(01:24:02):
one that just decides that the big steroided up fighter
is the bad guy, that's for.

Speaker 6 (01:24:07):
Sure, right, I mean they're both kind of bad guys. Yeah, yeah,
those those those types have a way of finding each
other in a way at their worst. You know, not
have to say that, dude. They're like that their whole lives.
They can have beautiful days and they did. That's a
big part of the doc is her saying like, I'm
just trying to get back to those days where just
we just get along just great, and those days are
in the camera's there for it all and you look

(01:24:28):
into her eyes and she's that kind of stoneface the
whole time. She doesn't show any of the emotion Emily
Blunt locates in this character. She's always very, very straight
laced in terms of her visage, even in the even
in the hospital when Mark's overdose. So it's kind of
interesting what Emily Blunt does with it when you know
how limited of a range of emotions she actually shows

(01:24:49):
in the documentary itself. You can tell to your point
she kind of ran with the ball. Well, TJ, Hey,
I'm going to tell you something here. I was gonna
tell you so I'm just looking her up quickly. She
was at at Uh, the premiere was Toronto, to the
Toronto screening. The pictures of her at the at the thing,
and there's a pictures at a picture of them. I

(01:25:11):
didn't give her enough credit.

Speaker 3 (01:25:13):
No, no, we did not. That's the four of them.
It's Dwayne, Emily Mark, and uh, I'm happy. I'm happy
for that. I'm happy show deal. She's there. Yeah, that's great,
that's great to hear.

Speaker 6 (01:25:25):
I'm glad she accepts the reality of how she was. Well, yeah,
I mean, what the hell, right, I mean, you went
through it. Who cares if the best actresses you know,
brings it to life?

Speaker 3 (01:25:34):
I mean, and honestly, you know, fucking soak it in
and you know, God knows, you probably get a couple
of pay days out of it. Absolutely, yeah, And that's
that's something they know how to find. So TJ found
myself nostalgic for MMA back when everybody cared in which
is weird because this is not when everybody cared in
the States, but it's when everybody cared internationally. And uh,
I don't know, how are we already at the place where,

(01:25:55):
you know, the movies are being made about the good
old days in MMA. It's it's it's wild, oh dude.

Speaker 8 (01:26:01):
I Mean the only people that ever reach out to
me in social media are like, wow, I saw you
come up with my timeline. What are you doing now?
And I'm like, oh, what do you mean? I'm still
doing the same thing I've always done, Like I stopped
watching six years ago. Yeah, it used to be better.

Speaker 3 (01:26:17):
Huh.

Speaker 6 (01:26:18):
Well, which is crazy because they're still selling out buildings
and doing record gates. It's just a new generation of
fans that during COVID they made.

Speaker 8 (01:26:25):
Yeah, I've worked in this sport full time, h for
let's see here eighteen years and uh, most hardcorese today
have no idea who I am, which just makes me
feel special.

Speaker 3 (01:26:38):
Yeah. Yeah.

Speaker 6 (01:26:39):
And there's a period of time when we had to
wait to see these fights on you know VHS.

Speaker 3 (01:26:46):
Or was there was there MMA tape trading if there wasn't.

Speaker 8 (01:26:49):
Oh yeah, huge, especially the stuff of Japan, like Pride
was the biggest one, but like Shootout that was, you know,
one of the biggest promotions over there. I mean, that's
that's actually kind of what the guy who started the
website that Jack and I worked for, Shirt Dog, was
kind of known for training tapes to get shots and
things like that.

Speaker 6 (01:27:08):
Yeah, one of the big earliest draws to the site
was that, because you know, the industry was so fragmented
and no one really was gonna hit you with a
copyright claim to make these incredible highlight videos, these music
videos of the craziest things these fighters had done. And
you knew these fighters through three four fights that they
did onder the bright lights. But if you dug a lot,

(01:27:28):
you can find tapes of fights that you never knew
they had, and these highlight reels would just give you
like this full suite of these people doing amazing things
that you'd never seen before. And it was just like,
you know, it was like a creator economy. It was
like everyone had at it. There was nobody saying, test tisk,
you can't do that, you're the permission.

Speaker 2 (01:27:46):
It was just.

Speaker 3 (01:27:48):
Jack.

Speaker 7 (01:27:49):
Do you know what? Was there a Kerr shirt dog highlight?

Speaker 3 (01:27:52):
I didn't see it, but I believe so that that
rings a bell.

Speaker 8 (01:27:57):
Yeah, I mean there, he would have fit this sort
of mold for that, but like, yeah, I don't know,
it's it's it's interesting to think about. Because you mentioned
tape trading. There definitely was tape trading. It was just
more done peer to peer on those sites. I mean well,
I mean, dude, I destroyed a hard drive in at

(01:28:18):
an entire computer because I downloaded Jeremy Horn versus Anderson
Silva from South Korea.

Speaker 7 (01:28:22):
So you know, it was those days.

Speaker 6 (01:28:25):
Yep, yep, day long download, set it and forget it,
and maybe you'd get one fight if you were lucky.
After all that, while sixteen viruses always, every one of
those sites would just attack your computer.

Speaker 3 (01:28:37):
Oh, pop ups? Is this the download link? Oh?

Speaker 6 (01:28:39):
No, the download link is actually hidden behind four pop
up windows that you have to mix.

Speaker 8 (01:28:44):
Out, and then then you would download the fight and
would download, and you couldn't watch it because your computer
just kept throwing random things and playing weird songs in
the background.

Speaker 7 (01:28:52):
You didn't have RAS or.

Speaker 6 (01:28:54):
Needed a CODEC that you didn't have yet. Yeah, that's true.
It was enough post internet because tape trade as we
think of it in wrestling, as like seventies, eighties and
like early nineties or Japan.

Speaker 3 (01:29:06):
Yeah, Japan too.

Speaker 6 (01:29:07):
Yeah, but I'm saying when people were interested in what
we call tape trading, the Internet had evolved enough that
you could probably download it. You're probably more likely to
try to find a way to download it than you
would actually have someone from Japan's centre VHS.

Speaker 3 (01:29:21):
But I did.

Speaker 6 (01:29:21):
Used to go to the Japanese video store in Boston
and try to find the k Ones and the Pride,
and I used to find them. They used to sell
like the straight taped off television. Like used to be
these big New Year's Eve spectaculars you could get.

Speaker 8 (01:29:34):
Well real real quick. I think it was in two
thousand and three on New Year's Eve in Japan. This
is how big the sport was there. Eighty five percent
of the population was tuned into one of three fight
promotions that were on television nationally broadcast television that night.
And now it's weird as Pride dies. You know, K

(01:29:54):
one is kind of a thing again. I think I
hear rumblings, but like combat sports in Japan, it's really
not even on the radar. But you know, twenty years
ago everybody was tuned into US.

Speaker 3 (01:30:08):
Yeah it was. It was, yeah, it was.

Speaker 6 (01:30:10):
It was like a mainstream phenomenon. It was almost like it. Yeah, yeah,
it was like a spectacle.

Speaker 8 (01:30:14):
You know, there's I mean, Jordan Breen would always say it,
I'm not confident with my Japanese, but I think they
call it the kakatogi boom.

Speaker 6 (01:30:22):
Kakatoki boom ya, kakatoki being the word for what we
think of as mma, because I do remember going at
a said video store and asking for kakatogi and getting
that look like you're this fucking white guy I believe.

Speaker 7 (01:30:32):
I mean, that sounds like you're in some weird porn.

Speaker 3 (01:30:34):
And I was gonna say it definitely does. I was like, well, yeah,
he just say kak I thought, well I did. I'll
tell you this, you walked about shame and pain. I
did feel more comfortable saying kakatogi than pududesu.

Speaker 6 (01:30:47):
I wouldn't dare. I wouldn't dare tell them. I was
a wrestling fan. I want to see the real fighting shame.

Speaker 3 (01:30:54):
So yeah, here we are.

Speaker 7 (01:30:56):
I'm just realizing. Was Lenny Hart not in the movie? No? Oh?

Speaker 3 (01:31:02):
Is that the version of Jimmy Hart? Anyway?

Speaker 6 (01:31:06):
Now, she was a ring announcer who did like this amazing,
high pitched style of introduction that was so.

Speaker 7 (01:31:12):
Hard to JP.

Speaker 8 (01:31:14):
Like, look up Lenny Hart when you have some time,
because she was larger than life, and I mean when
you actually see what she looks like and what she
sounded like.

Speaker 7 (01:31:22):
It disclows your mind.

Speaker 3 (01:31:24):
She was.

Speaker 6 (01:31:25):
She was part of the tapestry of what made this
more than just a sport. At the time, it was
like this weird world, this kind of like video game
with real people.

Speaker 8 (01:31:33):
Uh.

Speaker 3 (01:31:33):
That that's what hit me.

Speaker 6 (01:31:34):
I'm like watching the depiction of these fights back then
and I'm like, this like Street Fighter, but it's real fighters.
But the way Japan set it up, it looked like
it was brought to you by Capcom or something, and
these guys were you know, choose your fighter, That's how
they were presented. They'd come out in a big parade
at the beginning of the show and you'd size everyone
up and it was it was a time and uh

(01:31:55):
the Wayne Johnson of all people. Bringing it back to
the four in the Smashing Machine. We hope you enjoyed
our special report here at TLF taking in the latest
because there's too many, uh too many concentric circles here,
from from mm A to pro wrestling to rock to cinemat.
I'm sure one day we'll even put it under the
cinemat boss.

Speaker 3 (01:32:14):
Absolutely absolutely see what you know. We got to get
the We gotta get to the truth of the matter,
especially after you know whatever happens. Uh, you know, next
next winter, I'll bill.

Speaker 6 (01:32:26):
Maybe we'll even interview Ryan Batter, who by that point
will be an Academy Award winner instead of Dwayne Johnson.

Speaker 3 (01:32:31):
Dude, imagine, imagine, okay.

Speaker 8 (01:32:37):
Any one playing playing the image that a guy wants
to be rather than yeah.

Speaker 3 (01:32:42):
Right exactly.

Speaker 6 (01:32:45):
Ryan Bater wins the Academy Award in the Rock Biopiic
playing Dwayn Johnson. Maybe that's where we're headed. Things have happened,
but thanks, thanks for listening, and do keep it locked
for the resumption of the complete hul Cogan that has
come being fast and furious to your feeds in a
way that I don't think you're prepared for. So we're
excited to relaunch that. And thanks for listening in on

(01:33:08):
this interlude. This has been the TLF Special Report.

Speaker 7 (01:33:10):
Wait wait, wait, wait you can't. You can't end it
that way. I need you to thank me. I've been
thinking about this since we started, so please thank me
for coming.

Speaker 3 (01:33:19):
Oh TJ, thank you so much for coming.

Speaker 7 (01:33:21):
What can I say, but hey, you're welcome.