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September 26, 2025 58 mins
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Speaker 1 (00:15):
It's the Lapsed Van Wrestling podcast special report. The Lapsed
Fan presents the Complete Hul Cogan, a real American story,
brought to you by Garage Pierre.

Speaker 2 (00:27):
We had to pull this one together, Boss, because in
the special interview Vane, if we're going to be in
the middle of the Complete Hull Cogan, we all know
where we're heading, right, We're heading to Hulk gets massive,
Hulk makes millions, Hulk has to shrink again when the the.

Speaker 3 (00:40):
Stay rights deflation, we're talking about inflation.

Speaker 2 (00:45):
We're talking about deflation in the months to come on
TLF and serendipitously, there is a book that has dropped
that we think might make a very nice compendium. This
author's really entire Titan series. In a lot of ways.
We'll track kind of the pivotal moments in which Hulk
Hogan and the WWF came to fruition, but perhaps no

(01:06):
more than the latest release, which is tight and shrinking.
The author is James Dixon. You might know him from
his many collaborations with Kenny McIntosh and the Inside the
Rope's Crew over in the UK. He's done a series
of books chronicling and really nice compendiums of everything that's
been said by people who were there through the Titan rise.
You might remember Titan screwed, Titan sinking, Titan shattered, and

(01:28):
now it's Titan shrinking. How wrestling's muscle lost its power.
James Dixon joins TLF to talk all about it. James,
great to have you on the show man.

Speaker 4 (01:37):
Thank you very much. My absolute pleasure. I'm a big
fun of you guys, so it's great to be with you.

Speaker 2 (01:41):
Oh it's a good start, so very good start. I
want to start by going to a point in the
book where you talked about your author conducted interviews, because
if folks don't know one of the things James does
exceptionally well, it's not only like what we do. Go
through all the shoot interviews, go through all the media articles,
go through all the observers and the torches, all the
contemporaneous stuff, and really pull it together because it is

(02:03):
so hard in professional wrestling to make sure you account
for everybody's voice, not only everyone who was there, but
everyone who claims to be there, and all of the
debunking that has to go with, you know, the fact
that you're you're you're sort of quoting professional liars, for
ninety percent of what you're doing. And so James, at
the at the end of Titan Shrinking, which is available

(02:23):
now on Amazon and wherever get your books, has an
author conducted interview section. A couple of folks really caught
my eye, James, and I wondering if you could start
just taking us into how these different folks contributed. One
of the people you talked to was JJ Dillon, which
he was there of course and a vice president of
talent relations capacity. And first, you know, to introduce folks

(02:43):
to the book, and then if you could start with Jj,
I'd love to hear kind of what you gleaned from
talking to him.

Speaker 4 (02:48):
Sure. Yeah, So with so the intro to the book is,
as you mentioned, I'd release the other three the Titan trilogy,
which covered ninety five to ninety seven, and for the
last decade, Kenny Macintosh and the Ropes has been pestering
me relentlessly to write a new one. I'm just like, man,
there there's nothing I write about ninety eight ninety nine,
like we w F then was on fire, So who cares?

(03:11):
You know, there's nothing, there's nothing interesting about them doing
well and everyone getting along and making a lot of money.
But I was like, you know, my thought about it,
ninety two, there's a lot happens in ninety two. You've
got the UK boom, which which was huge. I don't think,
you know, US fans realized just how big the UK
boom was. Like, obviously they're aware of it, but I

(03:32):
don't think there's an appreciation for that's as big as
wrestling's ever been in the UK. Yes, was in ninety two,
and not just for Summer Slam, you know, it was
just everywhere, everywhere, mainstream. And he's like, well, that that's
a big part of it. And it's a real nice
juxtaposition with the WF in the US and the rest
of the world's going down quite a lot and in

(03:52):
every metric really, and Hogan obviously leaving is a big,
big part of that, and are the reasons why and
everything going down behind the scenes, and it's like, you know,
there's there's a story here to be told. And the
more I thought about it, I said, well, yeah, okay,
you can go into ninety three and kind of the
New Generation stuff, and and then obviously the big climax
of the new trilogy, which is what this inevitably now

(04:15):
is is obviously the steroidrout which which you guys know
a lot about, And yeah, there's that's there's there's a
task aheademy on that one to get that coherent and
making sense. But it's it's a fun project. You know,
it was a fun project to work on. And I
wasn't convinced when I started that there'd be enough to
fill out a book, but then I realized there was

(04:36):
more than enough. You know, so much happened, so many
people leave, so many new faces come in, and yeah,
so it's worked out pretty well. But as for for JJ,
that's actually an interview I did ten years ago. Wow.
Funnily enough, So I interviewed JJ for the for the
original trilogy. I don't remember how I got hold of him.

(04:57):
I think it was through so I'm friends with their
doc to Tom Richard, and he because I was there
was a point where it's never going to come out,
so he hopes it. But there was a point where
I was working with him on his autobiography and we
worked it for a while and then you know, it
kind of fell through for a bunch of reasons, and
you know, but we stayed close, and when I was

(05:17):
doing this book, obviously I spoke to all those books. Sorry,
I spoke to him and I said, look, I'd love
to speak like JJ and others, because people always hear
the restless point of view, but they're not the ones
who matter because they don't either know what was going on,
they don't remember, or they make it up, as as
you alluded to. The guys who were working behind the
scenes in the office or who were like the PR

(05:39):
guys or the ring crew or whatever, they're the ones
you want to speak to you because they remember it,
you know, they remember it all. So and JJ was
obviously really heavily involved behind the scenes in WF. So yeah,
Tom Tom hooked me up with him, and I just
give a call, and he was very very pleasant, very cordial,
and you know, very willing to share anything that I

(06:01):
asked him, and to the best of his recollection, obviously,
and a lot of it was already in his really
excellent book, which is Wrestlers Like Seagulls and you know,
which is a very accurate description. And yeah, he was
very willing, very accommodating. But like I say, it was
a decade ago, so in terms of what he said,

(06:23):
I'm not entirely sure word for word what he said.
But I did make notes of everything he told me,
and a lot of it because he would.

Speaker 2 (06:30):
Go he was in the office during a lot of
this like panic mode, and he's credited or it depends,
like you want to phrase it with getting Jerry Jarrett
involved right in case goes to jail.

Speaker 4 (06:42):
Yes, yeah, that was because there's a lot of dispute
over that, whether that's true or right. It's like, oh,
you know, you get people said, now, now, Vince, that's
not why he brought in Jerry Jarrett. It was he
just kind of brought him in for advice. And it
wasn't because he was going to jail. It was because
he was going to jail. Of course, it was Vince.
Vince was convinced, convinced that was going to be made
an example of. So there had to be a contingency, right,

(07:07):
and who I mean it was Jerry Jarrett the right option,
probably not given the sort of style of wrestling he
promoted and what Vince liked. And I don't think anyone
could have really replaced Vince, you know, and been the Vince.
It would have been Vince run from prison and everyone
else just doing what what he said, but yeah, it
was JJ wh wh who brought him in because he
realized that Vince needed help. Amazing.

Speaker 3 (07:28):
So, Boss, have one quick question about Tom Pritchard. Now
his his doctorate in desire? Is it an MD or
a PhD? Do we know?

Speaker 4 (07:40):
I think he's got a master's degree.

Speaker 3 (07:42):
Yes, there we all right curious.

Speaker 2 (07:46):
Yeah, when he said it'll never it'll never come out,
I was so deflated because I thought we'd finally get
an answer to that long burning question relative to his CV.

Speaker 4 (07:53):
I'll confermo deny whether that's in the book.

Speaker 2 (07:55):
I'm afraid JP is going to turn it to you anyway,
because someone else that that James spoke to was Harvey Goldsmith,
who was involved a lot with bringing WWF to Wembley
for SummerSlam ninety two and all of the UK tours
and really kind of plugged in from the UK side
when the rock and wrestling phenomenon began. We know, well, Boss,
you know how prominent that era was for UK fans

(08:16):
because we spent a lot of time talking about ninety
one ninety two and so many of the listeners are
from the UK.

Speaker 3 (08:22):
Oh, it's it's tremendous. I mean, we we've I've really
gotten a whole new appreciation. I mean we have, not
just me, but we've gotten a whole new appreciation for
that that era, because there are so many shows that
we have been led to and that we have now
watched and reviewed that we didn't even know necessarily existed,
you know, back then, at least not on tape. I

(08:43):
always think of the the Battle Royal at the Alfred
I said, Alfred Hall, like Alfred Hayes Lord, Alfred Hayes Hall,
and it's I just I knew it was big, but
I'm I really had no idea that it was as
big as as its being described. It's really remarkable that

(09:04):
it was kind of a mainstream thing as wrestling was
kind of dying off in the States. You know. It's
such a weird, kind of a weird juxtaposition to use
that big word.

Speaker 4 (09:22):
I mean, with the UK, it did get start to
get big in probably ninety and eighty nine, when they
first came over and when it was on TV, and
it was a strange thing over here because it was
on TV on on different stations, so it kind of
bounced around and everyone kind of wanted it, you know,
and it became the thing for SkyTV over here to

(09:44):
Laune Hull, Cogan was like front and center of SkyTV's
launch alongside you know, Premier League football and movies. It
was it was every bit as big and as big
a part of the package that you had to pay
for which was new over here. Then you know, it
was huge. And Harvey Goldsmith very smart guy, you know,

(10:05):
very you know, big name promoter over here, and he
he saw it, you know, pretty quickly, and he made
sure that he was the one, you know to get
in there with w F and and you know, bring
him over and even though that was the case, he
was shocked when you know, Vince I think it was
Vince called him direct or someone from Vince's office was like,

(10:26):
can you get as Wembley And he's like, man, that's
going to be that's going to be a challenge. That's
going to be a challenge. He had, like he had
booked Wembley before. There was a really famous concert over
here called Live aid In.

Speaker 3 (10:42):
Concert.

Speaker 4 (10:43):
Yeah it still is like it's still like this iconic
event and that and that was Harvey who was involved
in that, and you know he took notice and he
was well aware of what was going on here and
and him and his team, you know, they wanted to
they did want to bring it over and they and
they did, and you know, he spoke to Hogan, he
spoke to you know a lot of the guys. He

(11:03):
became friendly with them and they trusted him. And obviously
he did great job over here because it was always
always sold out like that, you couldn't get tickets. It
was unbelievable how difficult it was, you know, the market
for them, and it was. Yeah, he noticed how well
it did on Sky. It was kind of the Simpsons
and wf they were the two big things, right and
then and I think he noticed there was a PR

(11:27):
guy called Chris Pool and he had a business partner
called Alan Edwards, and I think they'd been summoned to
a meeting with Harvey. And he was like, right, it's
we're bringing something over. And they were like, oh wow,
the Rolling Stones or something. It's like it's wrestling and
this and this. Chris Pool was like, Alan Edwards is

(11:50):
like what the hell is this? And but Chris Poole
was like, oh, my son is obsessed with wrestling, Like
I know them all, Like I'm constantly subjected to it.
On Sky. You know, so he took over the you know,
being involved in that, and he was sort of a
big champion of that, and you know, we talked to
him as well as part of the book, and yeah,

(12:10):
did they were I guess they were not surprised that
Vince did Wembley. I wanted to do Wembley, but I
don't know if they're entirely convinced that he could do it,
but obviously it was no problem whatsoever.

Speaker 2 (12:23):
That's great color, yeah, because it is kind of a well,
it's such a huge show and loom so large for
any fan of the time, UK, US, wherever you may
have been that Summer Slam ninety two show. It is
kind of amazing that they pulled it off in that
kind of a stadium at a time when they couldn't
even reliably sell out Madison Square Garden back in the
United States. So we watched that with wonder and I did.

(12:47):
I don't know if you've gotten into this with with
Harvey or any others, but you know, aw being able
to do Wembley twice and they're going to do it
again next year was definitely an eyebrow razer to me
because I would figure that they would still have WW.
You would still have the warm line to Wembley, even
though you know as many times as they've been to
the UK in Summer Slam nineteen ninety two, they've never
gone back there. Do you have any sense of how

(13:08):
AW was able to kind of get themselves into position
with with Wembley Stadium that was such a huge coupe
for them, and I would imagine if WW could, they
would have stopped it.

Speaker 4 (13:17):
I think with Wembley it's a difficult stadium to run
because of the weather, you know, so it's an open
air stadium and certainly you know it's a different Wembley
now than it was in ninety two. Minds you know
they knocked it down and rebuilt it, but it's an
open air stadium and the British weather is unpredictable, and right, Vince,

(13:40):
certainly when he was in Church, isn't a big fan
of unpredictable. And actually in the it's in the book.
They actually secretly and I didn't realize this until I
was researching the book, had the next day booked as
well in case it rained, even though it's August time,
peak of British summer. I can assure you that does
not matter. It can rain and it does.

Speaker 3 (14:03):
Isn't it ironic that a guy like you said, Vince
like he needs predictability, but here's a guy who is
known for his unpredictable nature and changing his mind all
the time.

Speaker 4 (14:16):
Yeah, the irony isn't it is?

Speaker 3 (14:18):
Absolutely? Is it hilarious?

Speaker 4 (14:21):
But they did have, like I say, the next day booked.
And that's actually why it was shown on tape delay
rather than than air in live is because not just
because of the time difference that that wasn't a huge concern.
It was in case they had to do it the
next day, you know. They they were worried about that,
the potential of the rain. But as for a w
I mean there's I don't think w is overly concerned

(14:43):
because there's other stadiums over here that they can run,
and some of them, quite frankly, are probably better. Like
there's there's another one in London called the Tottenham Hotspurs Stadium,
which is a brand new stadium. It's where it's where
all your big sort of stars will now go and perform,
sure sometimes ahead of Wembley, partly because it's a little

(15:04):
bit cheaper to run as well, but it's just a better,
more modern stadium. And we also need to remember that
Tony kan is the own's Fulham Football clubs, right, which
is based in London, and so he has connections Wembley
is I believe it's owned by the Football Association over here,
so he's got going to have connections via that route,

(15:26):
you know, from in a non wrestling perspective. And plus,
it's like any building, anyone can book it, you just
have to pay the fee, and WWE are not doing that.
WWE are getting paid by cities to run which is
completely different. So I'm Wembley and London are not going
to pay WWE the amount of money that they want
for like a rest in or whatever it might be.

(15:47):
And aw were quite happy to just go, look, we'll
just pay the building fee and and run the run
the show. And obviously it makes them. It's worth it
for a w as a you know, less established identity
to do that because it makes them look good. It's,
you know, it's a perception thing, isn't it. If you
run Wembley Stadium, it's huge And obviously it was huge
for them, so he doesn't really need that anymore, and

(16:09):
it very much would just be giving a nod to
nostalgia for people, you know, fans like me who remember
ninety ninety two, and they don't really care about that,
if I'm honest, they don't. What they care about is
the making money and being paid to do these you know,
big p L shows that they do.

Speaker 2 (16:26):
Now, that's definitely a shift, and I wonder, you know,
I remember when they had when they announced the Wembley
Show and they had John Cena go on the ring
at the Money in the Bank Show and tease people
that wrestle Meani would come to Wembley. And then they
took it away from New Orleans because Vegas was willing
to pay up. And now they're going to Saudi because
no one can match that that whatever that check is

(16:48):
going to look like. Do you think we'll ever get out.

Speaker 4 (16:50):
Years, Yeah, it will. If not, it'll it'll go to
these other you know, rich nations who are willing to
pay for it for whatever, you know, reasons, political reasons
that they have wanted to do it, and I can't
see it. I think logistically it's quite difficult to do
it over here because you've got to think it's you've
got to get not only the wrestlers, but also the crew,

(17:12):
which obviously they do for twours, but WrestleMania is a
bit different and it's a lot bigger, and then you've got,
you know, all the the other buildings around WrestleMania that
you're gonna need for Rahm SmackDown, and logistically it's quite
tricky I think for them to do that, and I
think London would pay for it, but not the money
that they're looking for. So I'd be shocked if WrestleMania

(17:33):
ever came to London unless they do what I think
they are going to do, which has run multiple WrestleManias
a year. Oh God, WrestleMania Europe, WrestleMania, Saudi WrestleMania US.
You know you're looking forward to that to be surprised me.

Speaker 3 (17:47):
Well, honestly, I'm kind of thinking that that that next
year is going to be the last WrestleMania forever and
from now on it's just going to be Saudi Mania.

Speaker 4 (17:56):
A good chance. What a business.

Speaker 2 (17:59):
So when you when they did that tease with Sina
and money in the bank, where did your head go
to as to where they might do it if they
did bring it to London?

Speaker 4 (18:07):
What stadium? Oh? I just thought they were blowing smoke.
I didn't think for a second they were going to
do it. And that's a.

Speaker 2 (18:14):
Bad thing to get those people that excited. And then yeah,
that's a bad idea.

Speaker 4 (18:18):
Yeah, they like to have something at the PLS. Now,
Like if I don't know if I'm sure you guys
have watched the the Unreal series that they did and
and I think Nick can't say something there about you know,
they want something to make it matter. It's something along
those lines. It was the one in Toronto with the
rock and like what can we do to make it memorable?
And all this kind of stuff, and they always want

(18:39):
something like that, some hook, and I think that's just
what that was. It's like, oh, he's John Cena and
announced and he's going to promise you all this stuff
and you know everyone's going to rah rah for John
Cena and wow, brilliant do to me and get some
great headlines.

Speaker 2 (18:51):
And but I'm pretty sure it was right after a
w would announced they were going to Wembley that they
did that they were regotten too.

Speaker 4 (18:58):
That that was my recollection. That's the game, isn't it.
That's always been the game? Doesn't that used to be
Vince's game and you know Paula vexl learnt very well.

Speaker 2 (19:08):
Yes he did in any ways, So it's great to
get that insight in the book Titan Shrinking into you
know what some of the promoter types in the UK
thought about bringing Summer Slam there. We all remember that
show so fondly in the States, let alone to be
to be in England. I mean, where were you at
at the time, James, Were you trying to get in?
Were you too small to even consider going? What was

(19:30):
it like in ninety two?

Speaker 4 (19:32):
So in ninety two, I'd have been eight years old
and I was very much super fan. But by the
time I because news traveled slow right back in the day,
and I live quite a long way outside of London
as well, about four hours away from London, so which
I know in the US is nothing, but in the
UK that's about as far as you can get, so right,

(19:53):
you know, it's quite it's quite a distance over here,
and we don't have great well we didn't certainly have
great sort of travel networks then. It was quite difficult
to get to London back then, and because cars weren't
very good either, they'd break down halfway. Struggle so it
was hard. But but no, it was never a really

(20:15):
feasible possibility for me and to go. But in my
in my school, it was all anyone talked about for
about three months, you know, as soon as it was announced,
and it was always are you a breat guy or
are you a bulldog guy? No one cared. No one
cared about macho man and warrior. They didn't care whose
side mister Purfect was on. They didn't care about Camala

(20:35):
and take it, none of it. They it was are
you a breat guy or a bulldog? Yeah?

Speaker 2 (20:43):
Yeah that those matches were pretty cold in the States too,
for what it's worth.

Speaker 4 (20:46):
Yeah, well that's that's fair. But you know, it was
like almost like tribal warf. It was kind of like
which side do you want? And in the playground every
lunchtime you'd you'd all wrestle, right, you'd have a bottle
royal on the concrete place ground, which you know was risky,
and there'd big war like not not real walks. We

(21:06):
were eight, but you know, it was there was tension
about like what had happened because everyone at that point,
no one thought it was you know, predetermined or fake
or any of the words that people use now, we
thought it was really this is Brett Verst bulldog And
I remember kind of sided with a bulldog at first
until I've got swayed towards Brett and since then, like

(21:28):
I've Brett's been my my number one guy ever since since. Yes,
I wasn't thrilled at the result.

Speaker 2 (21:33):
But that's wild that you got swayed towards Brett as
a brit That that's pretty uh pretty.

Speaker 4 (21:38):
It was pretty split man Like. Honestly, it was even
in the building that night, there was a lot of
support for Brett, you know when when you watch it, Yeah,
he gets a great reaction. Brett's so funnily enough, I
was just on, I was gonna bring that up. Go ahead. Yeah,
were with Brett last week with with Kenny with Inside
the Ropes and and he's still like packed houses, so yeah,

(21:59):
packed house and the lines for him are huge and
like he he still has this r about him and
I think one of my one of the writers in
the Inside of the Rope magazine said this about Brett
once is that there was people who were more over
than Brett, but there was nobody who was over like Brett.
And it's over here, that's absolutely and Germany as well,

(22:21):
that's absolutely the case. Brett was huge and people still
worship the guy as a as a hero and yeah,
he's he's very much. He very much was the main
event and he couldn't him and Davy couldn't have been
anything but the main event on that show. That's great.

Speaker 2 (22:36):
Yeah, So Brett has been doing tours. We just came
up offic series of tours you guys where he does,
you know, kind of like these evenings with Brett Hart
that The Inside the Ropes does so well and when
he was out there, you know, just just laying down
the truth as he sees it. A lot of times
it's received as I think more in the States than
in the UK frankly and certainly Canada. He's you know,

(23:01):
Sarah grapes blah blah blah. You see, like you know,
the Twitter army go to work on him on every
comment he makes that's negative towards the current regime. Is
it the flip side in the UK? Are people just
like Rah Rah everything he says negative about WWE? Or
is it similar over there where there's people that that
that that somehow get all worked up when he speaks truth.

Speaker 4 (23:24):
And British people don't really get works up about.

Speaker 2 (23:26):
Things, to be honest in any case. Yeah, that's a general.

Speaker 4 (23:29):
Rule, you know, but certainly not certainly not wrestling things
to laugh, you know, and have fun. And Brett's Brett's misunderstood,
I feel, and I will defend him because you know,
I'm a breck guy. But he's he's not bitter at
all from from talking to him and being at the
shows and things like that, He's not bitter at all.

(23:50):
He he loves his fans, he loves wrestling, he loves
talking about it. He he knows his audience. So he's
very much like Jim Connett. And I don't want to
kill the k fa here, but Jim Connett's one of
the nicest guys I've ever met in wrestling. The wonderful
guy couldn't have been more helpful to me when doing
these books, the first trilogy. And he's always been super supportive,

(24:11):
super help always willing to sort of share anything and
everything that he can remember, you know. And but on
you know, you on YouTube, on his podcast, you'll you'll
bury people because that's what his audience wants, you know.
He's so he plays into it a little bit. Now,
don't get me wrong, I've been chewed out by Jim
Connette as well, and it was great, amazing, this is fantastic,

(24:33):
this is he was so cross. But I'll tell you
what it was. I booked a show and What Culture
show in the US, and Joey Ryan was on it
and Jim Cornette was doing commentary. So you can imagine
there was a combustible element. Jim Cornett was just like,
I'm not I'm not calling his match. I'm not calling
the dick flip. I'm like, well, I don't know what

(24:55):
to tell you, Jim. It's on the card you're in
the booth to do. And I to tell him. I
was like, Joey, you can't do the flip. And He's
like yeah, whatever. He didn't care, you know, but it
was and Jim's just ran this, I'm on this show
with this guy. So well, look, I'm not the one.
I didn't book him. I'm just the I was the booker,

(25:15):
but I wasn't the money.

Speaker 2 (25:16):
Good luck finding the person who would raise their head
to say I did with him in the room.

Speaker 4 (25:20):
Well, there's no one willing I can tell you. But
but like like Jim, like Brett is like that. He's
very he's really funny, really very Canadian human, like very
dry humors, and he knows what he's doing. Like people
will shout out Goldberg and he'll just be like, oh
that guy, you know, And and he'll always you'll never
call him Goldberg. He always always full names him, always

(25:42):
calls him Bill Goldberg, like it's brilliant, honestly, but he's
doing on purpose. I'm convinced you. And he's like, yeah,
that time Bill Gilbert is now is in the rain? Now,
so Bill Gelbert. It's like, yeah, brilliant, Like keep it going.

Speaker 3 (25:55):
For it totally deflates Goldberg when you call him Bill Goldberg.
It makes them like a complete shot, you know.

Speaker 4 (26:04):
I think that's probably the point, but it was just so.
But he's so funny, and he's always got like a
smirk and that glint in his eye when he's yes.
I mean, I won't I won't ruin what Brett said
because I'm sure Kenny will put it out on a
video at some point. But he had some interesting comments
about Vince and his relationship with Sean Michaels and where

(26:24):
the nickname Bitoi comes from and things like that. And
and he was saying it all with just like this
wicked glint in his eye. He knew what he was doing.
And he wasn't just like random and Raven and I
hate everything. It was just he was funny and he
was playing for laughs, and I think that's what he's
always doing. To be honest, he's and afterwards said to it, Brett,

(26:44):
I thought you weren't going to bury anyone who's like, oh,
I just got to be honest. You know it's fair enough.

Speaker 2 (26:51):
Yeah, he doesn't want to promise that on the front end.
My impression, I've talked to him a couple of times,
and he doesn't want to like come in like he
doesn't want to be known as someone that every time
you put a mic in firm him, he's gonna go off.
But if he reads the room and thinks that it's
going to like get a pop and he's among friends,
he'll start going every time.

Speaker 4 (27:07):
He's a worker, thank you very much.

Speaker 2 (27:09):
Now, if Bill Goldberg is something, go ahead, boss, I
just I was just doing, Oh yeah, the dusty.

Speaker 4 (27:18):
He's a worker. Everyone's a worker.

Speaker 2 (27:21):
The uh so if with Brett, if we're kind of
sure that he does the Bill Goldberg thing on purpose
to Needle. Is it the same thing with the Summer Slam.

Speaker 4 (27:32):
And the w CW. Yes, I don't know. I really
wanted to say him, can you please stop calling it?
But it's like because he was saying it was all
a w series, like yeah, when I was in the
w c W. I it's just like Brett, like it's unnecessary,
but you don't need that word.

Speaker 1 (27:50):
Wrestling podcast, the wrestling podcast that knows the boys need

(28:23):
their candy. It's the lapsed fan. He's a lapsed fan

(28:59):
wrest with Jack and Jo.

Speaker 4 (29:04):
But I don't think I'm the guy to say that
to him. No, No, I don't want to be that guy.

Speaker 3 (29:10):
You know.

Speaker 2 (29:10):
I actually like that he says it because it's a thing.
But I always wondered if if he keeps doing it
for the reasons he keeps saying Bill.

Speaker 4 (29:19):
Next time Kenny brings him over, I will ask the
question on your behalf. I'll pass the heat on you. Yeah, exactly.

Speaker 2 (29:24):
You know these assholes from this laps fan? Yeah, someone
else you talked to for the book, James Again. Titan
Shrinking is Brian Knighton, who was wrestled as Axel Rotten
and interesting from him. I mean he uh here of course,
an East Coast wrestling fan, and he remembers Mel Phillips.
And not too long ago we were interviewing a guy

(29:45):
who manages a club we did a live show at
and he grew up Queens, New York fan Garden remembers
Mel Phillips cruising through Queens looking for candidates. Okay, and
and Axel describes something very similar, and that's that's very
nineteen ninety two as it regards like everything that was
swirling around about WWF, and just as much as the

(30:06):
steroids scrutiny, this one was sort of like the double whammy.
It wasn't just the steroids, it was Mel Phillips and
Terry Garvin and everything else. So I guess as an
entry into that part of the discussion, can you talk
about talking to Brian Knighton who's now passed and yeah,
and that whole part of it.

Speaker 4 (30:21):
Yeah. So, so Brian reached out to me and I
think it's twenty fifteen or twenty sixteen and asked me
to write his autobiography with him. So he'd he was
aware of the Titan books or however many were out
at that time, and someone had recommended that he speak
to because you wanted to write a book. And I

(30:43):
was like, man, like I don't know, like Axl Rotten's autobiography,
Like I don't what's the story? You know? He was
kind of do we still be for bit? He was
he still be for bid? He didn't. He wasn't like
a big superstar name or anything. I was like, what's
the story. There's nothing I'm not really interested by. I'll
talk to him. And and as soon as I talked
to him, I was like, Wow, this guy might have

(31:04):
the best autobiography of all time, Like he's his real
story was unbelowble, like it was just from like the
stuff he suffered growing up, like his his real human
story rather than his wrestling story was fascinating. And then
then his wrestling story was interesting as well, and I
was just like, man, this guy is unbelievable. And then

(31:24):
obviously started telling me about the mel Phillips stuff, and so,
you know, we started his autobiography and it's it's probably
like the first couple of chapters were done, and I
remember sending him the first chapter and he just cried
like he was just so happy to see like his
his life, like finally on the page is something he'd
always wanted to do. And I think it made him

(31:46):
feel like he mattered and was important and he contributed something,
and you know, and he was so excited for people
to finally learn about his life and hopefully help people,
because the book was gonna be called Wrestling with Heroin
and it was about his addiction and how he'd overcome it,
or so he claimed. And then literally I talked to

(32:08):
him one night and he was he was in a
pretty bad way and he and I still at the
audio from it. It's really it's really rough. Actually, but
obviously we used to record everything for the for the book,
and I said, he's like, oh, man, like, I hope
we get this book done sooner. I was like, yeah,
you know, maybe a couple of months. He's like, oh,
it's something like, I hope I'm still alive. I was like,

(32:31):
be alive in four months and he's like, I may
I be aliveing in four days? And then four days
later I got a text from from doctor Tom and said,
have you heard about Brian? And and yeah, he obviously died,
So that was pretty Yeah, it was it was weird,
you know, it was weird. And quite distressing at the time,
but it was like, man, it's a shame, like obviously

(32:51):
I can't you know, it's a shame for him, not
for me, Like it was a shame for him that
that we couldn't finish this book and to get his story.
It was something you wanted to do so much, and
as it's such a shame of waste all that stuff
because he wanted people to know it. And when I
started around this book, I was like, man, I could
probably use some of that stuff he said in here,

(33:12):
because it I know he'd want that. You know, I
knew him well enough by that point to know that
he'd want that. And I did sort of wrestle with
it a little bit myself because it was like, well,
and I kind of profited on a guy who's passed away,
you know, and it's it's a bit of a murky area,
I felt. But but I thought, no, he wanted people
to know that story, like he specifically wanted it out there,

(33:32):
and so I'll put it in there as almost a
tribute to him, which is, you know, what he's mentioned
in the acknowledgements and such. But yeah, it was a
like he was really upset when he when he was
telling that story, it was obviously very like harrowing and
for him to sort of relive it and what he
was telling me about, you know, him going there with
his friends and melt taking an interest in him real quick,

(33:53):
and then you know, rest've seen him wrestling all these
kids and all that kind of thing. And and Brian
was pretty sure with that people knew what was going on.
And I think it's become quite clear that people suspected
what was going on. But it's you know, I've been
in wrestling lockerrow. I used to be a wrestler in
the UK for ten years, so like, I've been around
a lot of locker rooms, and I think it's it's

(34:14):
a little bit unfair to blame the boys for not
doing anything about it, because you don't really know what's
going on in people's business. You know, you don't know
who's doing what likes, something dodgy going on, maybe those
kids are related to now you know, you don't know
really and and it's not your place. What can you
do in his office? You lose your job because you
bring that up. It's it's very difficult morally, I think,

(34:37):
to know what to do. And I think it'd be
very different now, but back then I think it was.
It was quite difficult for the body, and I think
it's kind of outside out of mind. It's not our problem, you.

Speaker 2 (34:47):
Know, Yeah, did anything strike you going through all that?

Speaker 4 (34:50):
James?

Speaker 2 (34:51):
How the WWF handled it at the time, you know
how it I don't say they got away with it,
because they took a ton of heat in the meat
and there was damage that was done as a result
of that. But you know, really it's hard to point
to any particular bit of accountability. Of course, Tom Cole
ended up coming back to work for them as part

(35:11):
of a settlement. But you took the time to sort
of revisit the chronology blow by blow as part of
Titan Shrinking. What's your takeaway.

Speaker 4 (35:19):
It was? I think it was really important to do
that because there's so much happened in an incredible I
didn't realize either, Like I knew about all the stories,
but until I started researching the book, I didn't realize
just how close together a lot of that stuff was.
You kind of had the WBF launching on TV, and
you had WrestleMania, and then in between that you had

(35:42):
all of this stuff going on all of this scandal.
There was sex scandals, numerous sex scandals as it was,
you know, the storoid scandals. And then there was Hulk
Cohen's cocaine scandal, which was all over the UK tabloid papers.
I don't know if it made it to the US.

Speaker 2 (35:59):
Really, can you tell? Can you make a quick detour
and tell us about that one?

Speaker 4 (36:02):
It was? It was basically a story that Whole Cogan
was a coke addict and he'd been caught, you know,
taking cocaine with some some high rolling party or something
I think it was. And you know, it was just
one of those things that we asked them. I think
it was a Harvey about Harvey Goldsmith about it or
one of the PR guys about it, like, you know,
we're worried about that, like the table, because the British

(36:24):
tabloids back certainly back then and the Tories for anything,
they love to destroy heroes. And it was like, right, well,
let's go after this Americans and wrestling now we don't
like this, so we're going to go for them. And
and it was like Whole Cogan cocaine shame and all
this kind of thing, and and they were like wrestling
was so big that no one cared. Nobody cared. Most

(36:46):
of the audience was kids. They didn't read the papers.
The adults didn't seem to be overly bothered. They just
sort of celebrity scandal gossip and just dismissed it and
it and it kind of blew away, Like ironically, it
blew away. It just disappeared, and it was it was
just one of many. But that's that's kind of the point.
There was just so many that it was almost like

(37:08):
this deluge of press and it's like it's this story
about this and this, and these lawsuits here and there,
and you know, it's like, man, there's just so much.
And I think for for most people, most fans and
most followers of wrestling, it's very difficult to have a
coherent timeline of what happened during that period because, like
I say, it was condensed into like a month or two,

(37:28):
it was really close together. It was like Vince was
sort of fighting fires every single day. You know. It
was you'd go from Arsenio Hall who, then you'd have
the rumble, and then you'd have Sid trying to leave
but then to stay, and then you know, the I
think it was a drug busting. I think it was
certain Leuis.

Speaker 2 (37:47):
Saint Louis, Yeah, it was, yeah.

Speaker 4 (37:50):
Yeah, the drug was said jack Lands are kind of
been made aware. I think it was, and you know,
there was a there was a bunch of stuff like that,
and it was it's important, I think, to get a
coherent timeline for this and make it make sense and
make it clear. And as I was revisiting it, I
realized that quite incredibly, I think no one cared about

(38:11):
the sex scandal outside of the sort of shock TV
shows you know you Donna Hugh and Geraldo Rivera I
think were too, and no one else cared. No one
else cared. It was just no there was one more.
There was one more that Vince was on with with
Bruno as well, but Larry King, Larry King, that's right, yeah,

(38:33):
Larry King. And outside of that, like, no one really
picked up on it, and the FEDS didn't care at all.
And the reason that's and that's in the book what's
really highlighted. And there was some really work, great work
done on this by Dave Bixon span So i'ven cover
some of this stuff, but what really struck me was
they went after mel Phillips, the FEDS, but not to

(38:55):
arrest him and put him in jail, which is what
they should have done. There's no doubt about it that
he was guilty. They've got video evidence the FBI of
mel Phillips being guilty, but they dismissed it as it's
not enough evidence. Like this, this footage of you know,
this grown man tickling a kid's feet and wrestling with him.
It's like and various other you know, very questionable and

(39:19):
obviously sexual things that were going on. They dismissed it
as not enough evidence. And the reason for that is
they were trying to build a case against Vince. They
absolutely wanted to nail somebody, and Vince was the man
that they were going to nail, and they went to
mel Phillips to try and get him to testify against
the WF and Vince because they wanted someone on the

(39:42):
WWF side, as they saw it, like on the wrestling side,
to be on their side to go against the WF.
And they they knew that WF were paying everybody's lawyers,
like all of the talent, and that they'd already been
you know, they'd already been made to be on side
of the degree and that included people who weren't there anymore,

(40:04):
like you, like you, Rick Rude, and guys like that.
You know. It was they wanted somebody who could go
against that, because they knew the wrestling fraternity would, even
if they were at odds with each other, would stick
together against this. And Mel Phillips was going to be
almost one of their smoking guns. They were going to
try and get him to testify and agree with what

(40:25):
they were saying about Vince and corroborate it. And they
went to visit him and he wasn't there, and then
they just left it. They didn't bother going back. They said,
he's not a priority. You know, we've got no interest
in pursuing him unless you can have used his leverage
against Vincent, because it's collapsed. So the entire investigation into
Phillips collapsed and the child sex abuse allegations were completely abandoned.

(40:49):
And I think it's a disgrace, really, and it's a
real failure of the legal system that that was the case,
This obsession with let's take down Vince, you know, which,
you know, you guys money, taxpayer money, right and maybe
not you guys at the time, but you know, yeah,
for sure, cost people money and because of this obsession
with we've passed this new law, let's nail somebody, and

(41:12):
they failed because they completely misread the room. And yeah,
it was and you guys know a lot about obviously
the trial itself, but I think it's it's pretty bad.
It's pretty bad what used to what went on back then.

Speaker 2 (41:26):
Yeah, it's to bring it back to hul Cogan, you know,
because we're looking so closely at his whole life and times,
I mean, having already covered this whole saga. You know,
it's so telling to me that when Hulk was due
to testify in George of Horrian's trial, which of course
came three years before Vince's, that the media was excited.

(41:46):
They were covering this thing as a story of national interest,
that hul Cogan is going to testify in this doctor
steroid trial. And when Jerry McDevitt got Hogan out of testifying,
you couldn't unless you lived in Pennsylvania, where the trial
took place, You're not gonna find coverage.

Speaker 4 (41:59):
Uh.

Speaker 2 (42:00):
I mean, there were a couple of national networks that
did cover him being convicted, but the fact that Piper
was was testifying didn't matter. Anybody the fact that Warrior
Warrior was in the ninety four to one, but the
fact that Billy Graham took the stand this big of
a star as he was all those years. No one
cared Martel Blair, the others who came up. It was James.

(42:20):
It was about Hulk Cogan. That's I mean, just as
much as they wanted Vince, they wanted the star power
of Hulk Hogan to justify it is newsworthy and worth
investing resources and covering.

Speaker 4 (42:31):
Hulk Hogan's the draw and Hull Cogan gets the eyes.
It's just like wrestling the car rooms. Just like wrestling,
you know, you want the draw to get the media
and the eyeballs on it and then tell the world
about it. And if it's just you know, fed's go
after owner of wrestling promotion. Who cares? You know, at
that time, people wouldn't have really bad an eyeland. It's like,

(42:52):
oh yeah, restless taking stereos of course. Yeah. Like it's
Hull Cogan though, and it's like the superhero and he's
larger than life and he's genuinely mainstream a popical strike
on it. When he's involved, people take notice. It's like,
oh man, this guy is he's been lying to everyone
and and then all of a sudden. People do love
a good bandwagon jump, you know, it's and they love

(43:12):
to tear someone down when they when they reach a peak.
So Hogan was a was a perfect candidate for that.
But but obviously Hogan hadn't done anything in terms of
you know, legality. He just he just took them, you know.
But Vince they thought was distributing them, or they were
trying to prove obviously that he was distributing them and such.
So it was it was difficult to pin anything on Hulk.

(43:34):
I think he was just kind of used really, But
obviously he kind of got out of it, didn't he
having to testify because of and Piper was furious about that. Yeah, yeah,
there's a Horient trial. Yeah. Pipe was furious about that one.
Because this is in the book as well. And this
was something I uncovered when I was researching this that

(43:56):
I didn't realize was Piper was always described in anything
like cart transcripts and things that I'd read as like
almost incoherent and almost as if he was drunk right
when he was in the Zaharian trial. The reason for
that is I don't know if you guys have heard
this one. But the reason for that is, yeah, wrestled
Undertaker on a house show and he intentionally when when

(44:17):
Taker did the tombstone on him, I think he was
on the outside and lowered himself so his head legitimately
smashed into the concrete. Hogan did the same thing.

Speaker 2 (44:27):
Man, the Undertaker was putting people's head through the mat
without intending to all through nanty one.

Speaker 4 (44:32):
Well, Hogan's was a little bit further away, I would suggest,
but yeah, Pie, Piper legitimately had got himself knocked silly,
give himself a concussion so he could be coherent. It's like, man,
just cafe bit, you know, don't do that. But yeah,

(44:53):
it was. It was. And Pipe's furious. He's like, well,
you know, I'm as big a star as Hogan. Well,
I mean you're not, but you know, I guess what
you're saying, you know. And he was curious that he's
he had to go on this trial and Hogan go
out of it, And yeah, I mean it's uh, it's something,
isn't it what you can do when you've got a
powerful layet.

Speaker 2 (45:14):
Does that sound like Piper? Do you jp?

Speaker 3 (45:16):
It sounds I mean listen the guy like the guy
would compare himself to the Hull cogin and listen, there's
no doubt about it, you know, in eighty five eighty
forty five he is he is easily on par with
Hull Cogan as being the equivalent bad guy. But come on, dude,

(45:37):
after that, you're nothing compared to Hogan. I'm sorry, You're done.
You can't. You cannot, you cannot, you cannot possibly possibly
compare yourself. There's nobody except for Steve Austin and the
Rock who can compare themselves to Hull Cogan. It's just
not possible. It's ridiculous. Sorry, Roddy, go fuck yourself.

Speaker 2 (45:56):
It's pretty amazing that that Roddy you know, would have
ex WWF to exert the legal resources to come up with,
you know, a reason. Of course, the reason is under seal,
never to be revealed again, that they convinced the judge
that Hulk Cogan would be harmed more than he would
help the prosecution's case if he testified. Yet Piper could

(46:17):
have made the same exact argument on the differences, they
didn't have the WWF's homepaid attorney to make that argument
on his behalf which is so incredible because Hulk's the
one who turns around and goes to w CW and
leaves Vincent the lurch in his trial, and by the
time Vince's trout comes along, Piper's working for them. In
the ninety four King of the Ring main event. That's
rest iron.

Speaker 4 (46:37):
It's the whole situation as part of the New Generation,
no doubt. Well, yeah, quite the New Generation may invent
that one, wasn't it. It was the responsibility really for
Hogan being dragged into that was was the Harian's lawyer.
So there's this really flamboyant lawyer, you know. He was
like a three piece suit and cowboy boots kind of guy,

(47:00):
you know, and he was he was very much like
a wrestling Carnie promoter. This he's called William Costopolis, and
he loved Spotlight. He loved the spotlight. He thought he
was on Ali mc biale or something, you know, when
he was in and he was so he would just
kind of downplays the orions role and just be like, oh, yeah,
every one of the wf's using them rather on the

(47:21):
mother don't participate obviously, referring to the steroids. And that
was when the reporters pounced in like USA Today ran
a front page, so like Hulk book from a bottle,
I think it was. And and that's when Jerry McDevitt
got on the phone, this the federal judge in the case,
which is William Judge William Caldwell, and was just like,
look like the government just wanted there for media attention,

(47:41):
Like it's going to really hurt his career, it's going
to be injurious to his career. And Jerry McDevitt has
a lot of sway, I think it's safe to say,
especially right, and he obviously got his way and Hogan
was excused, and I know Phil Mushnick was furious about it.
I think he says on the on the Vin Stuck
as well, but he was furious at the time. And

(48:02):
it was just like, well, why how do you get
dismissed from testifying? It might hurt you tell the truth.
It's like, well, he raises an interest in a probably
good point, probably good point.

Speaker 2 (48:13):
Yeah, he said that in the Dark Side episode as
well about the trial, And yeah, I think that one
comes down to, as far as I can discern, that
they were able to convince the judge that anything haul
Cogan's going to get there and tell you about Zihorian.
You already have established as as a point of fact,
and so at that point all you're doing is is
kind of carding him out, knowing that you can already

(48:35):
make all the points his testimony would make. It's not
like he was unique in his association with George and
Horian among wrestlers. And there's probably some other things. I mean,
there's clearly there was clearly indications and a lot of
the filings and stuff we looked at and the contemporaneous
reporting that they also made some kind of case that
forcing Halt to talk about his doctor patient relationship with
George and the Horian would reveal some things medically about

(48:56):
hul Cogan that would be something that would be an
jurious to him for the public to know.

Speaker 4 (49:02):
So who knows what that is.

Speaker 3 (49:03):
But I've had my mind maybe maybe maybe because it
might have exposed that the size of Terry blays Penis
and hul Cogan's were actually the same size.

Speaker 2 (49:16):
It did come up in a court of law in
the future.

Speaker 4 (49:18):
You're right about that.

Speaker 2 (49:19):
Really, it did become a question of a lot at
some point. So James just tell us Hogan. I mean,
this is such a weird time for him. But you
spent a lot of time in the book talking about
how he became the star as well on the salad
days for him coming going through it systematically like this,
But your anything surprised you to conclude about Hogan that
you didn't really appreciate on the front end.

Speaker 4 (49:40):
I think it's really surprising how just how much his
relationship with Vince collapsed after a senior hall that really
really it's been very injurious to his career. That was,
you know, and and obviously people are aware of it
and what he said, and I don't think they're aware
of what Vince's stunts, and that was, which was very

(50:00):
much like don't don't say anything, like don't don't deny it,
like it's going to be obvious. They're going to see
through that if you have to. He didn't want him
to do it at all, obviously, But Horgan was very
I think it's fair to say, ego centric. And Horgan
knew that his name was getting dragged through the mud,
and unlike Vince, he wasn't willing to just let it

(50:22):
slide off. And and kind of hope it goes away.
At first he wanted to defend himself, and I get that,
but there's a way to defend yourself and there's a
way not to defend yourself. And what Hogan did was
obviously not the way to defend yourself and it was
a foolish move, and I know obviously Vince was furious.
And then it immediately stirred the horness nest because everybody

(50:45):
then who had a vendeta against Vince so against Hogan,
you know, your Brunos and Billy Grahames and such, were like, Nope,
we're not standing for this. Yeah, this guy's a liar
and we're not. It's And for whatever reason, they decided
that that was the the thing to take him down with,
and they did, you know, and and Vince and Hogan
really drifted apart, and I think there was this What

(51:07):
was really interesting was there was this a roast for Vince.
I think it was his birthday. It was sort of
a combination of his birthday and a celebration of how
long he'd been in the business, which Linda had organized
secretly for him, and he had a load of guests
speakers there, including some people who had left and including
Jesse Ventura who was suing him at the time, and

(51:28):
even he had enough respect for Vince to see him,
you know, to see businesses business and go, no, I'll
be there. And Jesse was there, like I've got the
invitation actually and without the list of all the speakers
on and who's going to be there, and Hogan was
one of them. And like I said, Jesse was there.
And there's other people, some guys who weren't in WF

(51:49):
at the time, some comedians things like that as well.
And Hogan went to the event, but he didn't get
up and speak and give his you know, glowing abute
or you know, whatever it was supposed to be. And
then mean Jane was wandering around with the microphone just
kind of getting comments from from other people or the
wrestlers who were there, and he went to Hogan, and

(52:10):
Hogan just waved him away, wouldn't they anything. It's like
he's the guy who's been with Vince for the last
you know, eight years, and they've made millions together, they've
conquered the world together, they've they've gone global together, and
they were Vince and Hogan like Hogan was Vince's number
two really really in many ways, you know, it was
it was a partnership. One couldn't have existed without the
other that were symbiotic. And then you have this sort

(52:34):
of complete collapse of this relationship of you know, this
power couple, I guess, and they just really weren't working
well together at that point. We're barely speaking and and
I think Vince knew that Hogan was a lightning rod
for controversy. He needs to he couldn't rely on him anymore.
I think that's what Assenia Hall had proven to him,
that he can't trust Hogan, and that's why, you know,

(52:56):
they did the Survivor series switch and they kind of
devaluing him a little bit by having him get beat
a little bit more. And then the Rumble thing the
way that was booked, which it's actually the reason SID
tried to quit at Royal Rumble ninety two, so, which
is such a ridiculous and very SID story. But the
whole Hogan elimination thing and the way it played out

(53:19):
and Hogan then complaining backstage about it and crying about
and kicking off with you know, bout the way it's
been booked was obviously some political you know, to and
and thrown between Vince and Hogan. It was a power
play between the two of them, and Sid just saw
it and was like, I'm not getting involved in this
ship like I'm He's like, thanks Vince, by m out
of here, like this is I don't I'm not being involved.

(53:41):
This is ridiculous. And I don't know why it bothered
him so much. But obviously he's working with Hogan, I guess,
so he's he just want to be part of some game,
and Vince convinced it must stay, you know, through through
to the WrestleMania and then the European Tour. But and
then it fell apart as it did. But yeah, it's
quite interesting that there was all these games going on,
and you know, but even despite that, Vince still wouldn't

(54:04):
let Rick Flair beat Hogan because he didn't see it
as Flair beat in Hogan. He saw it as Rick
Flair and w c W beating the WF. So because
he's a contradiction, isn't he Vince. He's so he's it's
all this crazy stuff going on in Vince's head and
he doesn't He's like, oh, maybe I will go with Hogan. No,
actually I hate Hogan. And then we'll do this interview

(54:25):
that the two of them did, and there's some really
interesting stuff in there where Hogan talks as Terry bowlea
very briefly in there, and and Vince kind of forces
him into retirement, which Hogan was like, oh, it's news
to me, you know.

Speaker 2 (54:40):
Thank you for the memories, thank you for the inspiration,
and thank you for whole comania.

Speaker 4 (54:44):
We all remember it. Thank you.

Speaker 2 (54:46):
Terry had to say wrapping up with James Dixon again
that the book is Titan Shrinking, part of his Titan
series that you want to check out Boss anything else
for James.

Speaker 3 (54:57):
No, I just I love, you know, we know so
much about this this time period, and I love just
learning these these some little details that I just I
don't think if we talked about it, it was so
many years ago, but just kind of even talking about
the relationship just kind of disintegrating, like there's just some

(55:21):
some details in there that, uh, again I don't I
don't think I knew, or if I knew, I'd forgotten
by now. And so it was a nice reminder. So
I think that's just absolutely phenomenal. Though those little those
little tibets of information to me are are everything, and
they just paint such a better picture of the whole story.

Speaker 4 (55:39):
So well done, Thank you man. I mean that's for
me with these books, like you say, I love this
information is out there in some form or of the
it's about bringing it together and trying to make it
coherent and trying to make a nice amen tie. You
know how about that. It's it's a tricky right. You
guys know this as well as as well as any

(56:00):
And it's about letting people be able to understand what
happened and making sense of all the legal talk and
all the you know, the drug talk and all the
scandals and newspaper reports and things like that. And and
for me, it's very much about the minutia. You know,
everyone knows the big overall story, but what's what's the
small details, the little things that fill in the blanks

(56:20):
of the things that don't make sense from what's already
out there, like the reason Sid left, and there's a
lot of I won't go into it, but there's a
lot of different stories. Sid's version, the WF version, and
the Meltter's version. And then when you sort of piece
it all together and look at logically and figure out
as a proper timeline. You you actually see what really
happened and go, ah, that's what happened. And then you
speak to a few people and fill in the blanks

(56:41):
on things and and they're for me, the important part.
So my favorite part of the book. And again I
won't go into too which did I don't ruin it,
but the nails and Vince story is probably the most
fun I had right in the book, as you can imagine,
you know, it's it's quite a fun story and story anyway,
and there's so much, so much bullshit out there about

(57:04):
that story. That everybody was there, you know, everybody was there,
like Woodstock, everybody, and they all saw it. They were
all in the room, right, Oh yeah, I was the
one in the room who pulled nails off? Is that
that you weren't You weren't even booked on the show,
you know, So, Jim Brunzell, what you're talking about? You know? Whoever?
You know, I might be just burying poor Gym there.
But you know, there's a bunch of people who claim

(57:26):
they were there, who weren't there, and some people who were,
and some people have different perspectives or they've told it
so many times that they remember it as that, but
it's not what happened. And I talked to so many
people and and read and watched so much stuff about
that to finally piece it together. And then when it
all came together, its suddenly all of it made sense,
like from step to step to start to finish, and

(57:48):
it's like that's the real satisfaction of writing these books
is being able to finally sort of unearth these little
things that the little tiny snippets that make it go
from well, okay, all right, I get it now, I
get what's going on here. And that's what I'm hoping
to do because, like I said, there's a million shoots,
and you know, we've got you know, podcasts like you

(58:09):
guys who go into so much stuff, and there's you know,
wrestler podcasts now and we documentaries and you know, live
toos and everything, books and everything. But it's about piecing
all that stuff together and making it, you know, one
coherent story that people can follow. So that's that's the
fun part of it.

Speaker 2 (58:27):
Doing the work. It's TLF approved, Ladies and Gentlemen, Titan Shrinking.
Check that out and the rest of the Titan series.
Friend of the show, Thanks so much for being here.
James appreciate it.

Speaker 4 (58:36):
Thank you guys. Been an absolute pleasure anytime
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