July 4, 2025 • 43 mins
Popping back in because the masses called us back to the table! So. What do we think about Neil Druckmann and Halley Gross exiting HBO’s The Last of Us? What do we believe happened behind the scenes? Listen now to find out more!
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:24):
Welcome to the last cast.
Speaker 2 (00:28):
And that's all I'm going to say as far as
the intro goes, because we finished recording the season at
the end of May, and I don't think we need
an official statement or intro paragraph. Everyone knows who we are,
so welcome to this special bonus episode. Drop, and Andrew,
(00:48):
why why are we doing this special?
Speaker 1 (00:52):
Drop? How about you tell.
Speaker 3 (00:53):
Everyone breaking news, breaking news coming down the wire. We
just got confirmation recently, was two days ago, three days ago,
that Neil has exited the show. He has in Holly
and Holly has followed behind. Now here's something interesting. The
(01:17):
statement that that was put out there by I believe
it was Neil on his own socials as well as
the official HBO last of US channels, suggests that he
decided to exit before any meaningful work had begun on
season three of the show, which is interesting language.
Speaker 2 (01:40):
Interesting language. So that's why we're here. Yeah, meaningful is
the keyword. I actually, just as we are recording this,
I just came across a statement made by Craig Mason.
Oh yeah yeah, and it says, to quote Mazon, I
(02:00):
couldn't have asked for a more generous creative partner. As
a true fan of Naughty Dog and Neil's work in
video games, I'm beyond excited to play his next game.
While he focuses on that, I'll continue to work with
our brilliant cast and crew to deliver the show our
audience has come to expect. We are so grateful to
Neil and Holly Gross for and trusting the incredible story
(02:21):
of The Last of Us Part two to us, and
we're just as grateful to the millions of people around
the world.
Speaker 1 (02:25):
Who tune in. Yeah, what are we thinking?
Speaker 3 (02:29):
So?
Speaker 2 (02:30):
I am thinking quite a bit, But I know that
my die tribe, love and ass is going to go.
Speaker 1 (02:41):
On and on and on.
Speaker 2 (02:42):
So how about you share with everyone first how you
are feeling about this news.
Speaker 3 (02:47):
Okay, I'm going to break this down and do a
couple discrete parts here, but very small. Okay, So my
first thought is PlayStation Slash Naughty Dog needs Neil more
than HBO needs Neil. HBO just needs the property. They
don't need the guy involved in creating the property, right,
(03:11):
And I take his statement at face value. He is
at his core a video games guy, right, and Hollywood
is a different thing than video games, clearly, So if
he's telling me that he wants to turn all of
his attention to working on the new game, which has
been announced and is obviously an active development. Then that's great.
(03:31):
I would much prefer that. Right on the other side
of that, it's not just it wasn't just Neil that left.
It was Halle as well, or Haley. I never know
how to pronounce her name, but whatever'll Hally, I'll try all.
Speaker 1 (03:47):
Three at the same time.
Speaker 3 (03:48):
And that suggests more of a tense kind of situation,
like both of the creatives that were involved in the
original story have now left seemingly of their own volition,
but we don't know.
Speaker 1 (04:05):
What happens behind the scenes.
Speaker 3 (04:06):
Maybe we'll hear about it a few months or years
down the line or whatever.
Speaker 1 (04:09):
But if it was just one.
Speaker 3 (04:12):
Of them leaving, I'd be like, oh, that's okay. But
it's both within a day of each other, or maybe
the same day. I can't even remember what the actual
the same day, yeah, whatever the timing shook out to be.
And so my thought on that is it's very rarely,
if ever, has it worked out having two directors on
(04:36):
a project. Now, even some of my favorites, if we
were to take this in the Hollywood direction. One of
the greatest dynamic duos working still not even together, but
the Cohen brothers, right, I love their movies, but as
they work, they alternate directing duties. It's never directed by
(04:59):
the Cohen brothers. It is directed by Joel or Ethan,
never both. And so I feel like there is this
tension kind of that like between the guy who created
the original and the guy who's working on this new
version of it, that they're just butt heads and it.
You know, we don't know what happens behind the scenes,
(05:22):
but my thought there is that it's a little bit
of both. Like Neil's like, well, I don't actually need
this bullshit because I have I have a job over
here with these guys, right, that naughty dog, you know,
And so that's that's kind of what I'm thinking. It
seems like a culmination of a lot of different things
(05:43):
overall the series. The numbers seem good, right, like not
not a not rip Rorn's success at all, well, not
a ripror in success, right, but like in terms of
HBO prestige television, they fit within the parameters of what
HBO is looking for in terms of numbers, right. It
(06:05):
wasn't like, oh, under, it's not like the Idol or
one of those other shows. It was like, not even
a million people watch this or something. You know what
I'm saying, Like.
Speaker 2 (06:13):
Yeah, but a fifty five percent viewership drop off after
episode two for the remainder of the season is enormous.
Speaker 3 (06:21):
Yeah, and they had to have known that was coming
after Joel, after Joel, right after what many people would
argue is the star of the show gets killed. Anecdotally Pedro, Yeah, anecdotally,
I'm Pedro. There's the Pedro of it, all right. Anecdotally.
(06:43):
I work with somebody who's like, you know, going on
seventy very I think I might have talked about this.
Speaker 1 (06:48):
Joe.
Speaker 3 (06:49):
I work with very savvy when it comes to television,
watches a lot, interacts with it, has great media literacy.
He found the season. He't too insufferable. He's just enormy.
He's never The last video game he played was Pong, probably,
you know what I'm saying, Like, you know, that's just
(07:10):
the reality of the situation. I feel like his opinion
reflects many people, well clearly at least half the audience,
right like where they're like, I don't understand what these
people are doing. I don't know why I'm supposed to care.
I don't know why they did this. At XYZ, he
made a lot of really great points, And yeah, I
(07:35):
think those things can happen when you have two quote
unquote directors behind the scenes. There is a director of
the original vision, there is the director of the new vision,
and then you get this thing that's disjointed where it's
like it serves a little bit of this original audience
and it's trying to serve this other master of a
(07:57):
television audience, and those two ideas are incompatible. And so
that's kind of where you land in this situation. So
that's really all I have to say overall. Now we'll
know is what this is the great part.
Speaker 1 (08:17):
Now we'll know.
Speaker 3 (08:19):
If it was hewing too close to the source material
because Neil was there or because or if this is
all Craig John. You know what I'm saying, Like Season
three will be the determining factor. And I can't say
that I'm really looking forward to it, especially if work
has not started in earnest yet. That definitely means we're two,
(08:40):
two and a half maybe three years out from seeing
literally anything. So a lot to think about here a
lot to process. Sure, I just know that you have
a lot to say about this, So I'm.
Speaker 2 (08:53):
Just waiting for you to give me the queue, and
then I will not shut the fuck up until the
episode's done.
Speaker 3 (08:57):
I think that's it. I think that's it for me. Cautiously,
I don't know. Now it's different. It's different now, do
you know what I'm saying? Like it has changed hands.
Speaker 2 (09:09):
It changed hands the entire second fucking season. Just because
it looked like the last of Us didn't mean it
had a fuck all to do with it.
Speaker 1 (09:20):
And I'm completely on the other.
Speaker 2 (09:23):
Side of this. Yeah, I'm completely I'm not mad at Andrew.
I'm not mad at all. I just think this is
fucking hilarious. And I feel like I've called this since
the beginning because I do not like Neil Druckman, and
I do not like Holly Haley whatever the fuck gross,
and she's nothing but his ankle biting shadow, so wherever
he goes, she goes, So I do not care one
(09:46):
bit about her in this whatsoever, because some of her
fucking ideas for Part two were sinister and disgusting, So
I'm not even she's not I'm not wasting my breath
on her anymore. Beyond that, the amount of concepts go
going back to early days of the Last of Us
Part one, where he only wanted women to be infected
(10:06):
with the CBI virus or whatever, and this, that and
the other, because I mean, can we just stop and
think about the implications of that. He just wanted women
to be the carriers of this world ending fucking plague
that I'm so fucking glad someone was like, hey, Neil,
that's a big fucking problem. Maybe we don't do that.
(10:27):
Thank god somebody spoke up. And then beyond that, he
wanted to torture and kill Joel in the first fucking
five seconds with Tess because Joel killed Tess's brother and
Tess needed to get him back. Like he just is
hung up and has been from day one of torturing
and killing the main character of his own fucking story,
(10:50):
which is demented in my opinion.
Speaker 1 (10:53):
But we don't need to go into.
Speaker 2 (10:54):
The psychosis and psychology of it all the way that
I see this whole o charade the past few days,
which people have been blowing up our dms about, I
just sent a five minute fucking voice message to someone
through DMS because they were so curious to know our opinion,
and that's why I was like, we need to do
this episode right now to get over and done with.
(11:16):
So I think that this is the biggest fucking cowardice
or he was fired. It's either one or the other.
I don't think it comes down to creative differences. I
don't think it comes down to, well, this is my
sandbox and how dare you build a castle where I
already built a castle, but yours is just different and
(11:39):
bigger like it. I don't have any fucking inkling that
that's what this is. I think HBO fucking dumped his
ass because Craig Mason is still their golden boy. And
like you said, Niil's a video game guy. Who are
(12:00):
you going to cut first out of this equation? The
guy who has made a wildly successful TV show in
Chernobyl and has a history of being an actor and
working on various shows for various networks, so knows the
industry of movie making and TV show making more than
someone from a video game background. Or are you gonna
(12:22):
get rid of the guy who just directed one or
two episodes and just kind of hopped along because it
was his idea, give me a fucking break. Neil was
first on the shopping block. I will not be surprised
if Craig gets the acts next. And even though we
read that recent statement that he just dropped wherever and whenever,
I don't give a shit. I just I'm still so angry.
(12:44):
And this is why we took a break from podcasting,
because of the absolute dissolution of the source material, which
was already, in my opinion, very bad when it comes
to Last of Us Part two. So I went into
this thinking, maybe they'll take that source material and the
enormous plot holes that were part of the Last of
(13:04):
Us Part two video game and fill them in and
make it better. And what did they do? Not that
not fucking that. They took the potholes and they were like,
aren't these pretty? Aren't these great? Let's add seven thousand more?
And that's what Season two was, just one big, giant
waste of fucking time. And everyone in the comments section
(13:26):
it is split down the middle between yeah, Neil, go guy.
Speaker 1 (13:31):
You're awesome, We'll follow you anywhere to.
Speaker 2 (13:35):
Wow, he's jumping ship, what a fucking loser, blah blah
blah like and I'm I'm not gonna sit here and
say he's a loser who gives a fuck. My opinion
doesn't matter. The only thing I will say is it
is cowardice. He sat by with his pockets fully fucking
flush with cash from HBO and watched his characters be
(13:55):
absolutely decimated week after week for seven weeks in season two.
And I think two of those episodes he directed, so
he directly was hands on in all of that. And
you want me to believe that this is anything other
than HBO going, we're gonna, We're gonna, we have to
(14:16):
trim the fat, because clearly something failed with this season,
with the steep drop off in viewership, with the absolute
vitriol online about the show, because it's not just our
little podcast anymore.
Speaker 1 (14:30):
It is every fucking podcast.
Speaker 2 (14:32):
It is all the blogs, all the fucking this that,
And I don't even know if blogs are still a thing.
I'll tell old I am, but like all of them,
do not like this show anymore, and people are leaving.
And I wouldn't be surprised if Caitlyn Deaver reaches her
contract and leaves, like especially because you brought up a
good point of the Neil's line of meaningful work done
(14:53):
on season three. We are now a month out from
season two ending and they haven't even fucking started working
on season three. Like this is how important this show is.
Give me a fucking break, I would again, I won't
be surprised if Craig gets the acts or if the
show is canceled outright, and to be honest.
Speaker 1 (15:12):
Good riddance.
Speaker 2 (15:14):
But beyond what all the stuff I just said, I
also feel like, and I have no way of knowing this,
nothing other than my gut, which I've trusted my entire
life and has never steered me wrong. I feel like
Neil is under a microscope from not only well not
(15:38):
HBO anymore, but certainly for a time HBO, I think
Naughty Dog and PlayStation because I think that the severe
divisiveness that the Last of Us Part two caused in
the fandom and has now been adapted in part for
(15:59):
the big screene people are seeing a direct line to
Neil Druckman of can this guy actually do what we
have all believed he can do? Because I see people
all the time. Oh he's a genius. Oh he's a
give me a fucking break. He wrote a revenge story,
(16:22):
that's it, and It works well in a video game
because you have fighting in battle and combat mechanics, but
when you adapt a bad story into a TV show
and oh surprise, season two is absolute shit, we have
to go back to the source material. And that's where
I think the rot is starting to show. And it
(16:45):
makes me both sad because the Last of Us Part
one is and always will be my favorite game of
all time. It is extremely close to my heart. Honestly,
it's part of my DNA at this point, and to
see what has become of this series is beyond heartbreaking,
and it just keeps getting worse. And this was something
(17:07):
that I wanted to talk about when we started our emails,
our email covers for the last cast, which we are
recording throughout the summer, and all of those episodes will
drop in the fall. And I'm sorry if this upsets people.
I'm sorry if anything I've said, no, I'm not sorry
because they are my opinions, but I apologize if you
get upset as a result of anything I've said on
this episode today.
Speaker 1 (17:29):
There's my sweeping statement. Just remember I said that.
Speaker 2 (17:32):
However, I maintain always that the Last of Us Part
two narrative is a terrible story, And when you adapt
a terrible story from one medium to the next and
it turns out to be terrible, I mean, do I
have to say it like it? I felt almost vindicated.
I'm like, yeah, because the story was shit. And oh,
(17:56):
everyone's mad at the second show because they're like, this
fucking sucks, Like this is a bad story, this is
bad acting, this is terrible dialogue and writing, Like what
are we fucking watching here? The actors had nothing to
work with because there was nothing to work with. I
do I feel like there's a bigger problem here. And
I feel like Neil is certainly feeling heat from multiple sources,
(18:21):
and or at least was up until the release of
the statement. And now you know he doesn't have to
worry about HBO bearing down on him anymore.
Speaker 1 (18:30):
I don't know.
Speaker 2 (18:30):
I see it as him part one saving face. Part
two he probably was fired if it wasn't saving face.
And part three, naughty dog is pulling the fucking leash
back and just being like, get your shit together.
Speaker 1 (18:44):
I saw what you did there.
Speaker 3 (18:46):
Yeah, because it's a naughty dog the leash.
Speaker 2 (18:50):
See now it's not funny because you explained it. That's
that's the that's the point like that they are. I
think he's strayed too far. And you know, it was
Part two successful, yes, in some ways, but I think
in a lot of ways it wasn't. And if Intergalactic
proves to be a failure, I think Nil's out the door. Yeah,
(19:13):
I mean sure, yes, see, I mean this is millions
upon millions of dollars. It does not at the end
of the day, the people on the board of these
fucking networks and companies and studios when they sit down
and they look at their statistics and their fucking financial data,
and one plus one doesn't equal to It doesn't fucking
(19:37):
matter what your name is or what history you have
at a company. You're gone. You're done. To quote Tony Baker.
Speaker 1 (19:45):
You're done. Yeah.
Speaker 3 (19:47):
Naughty Dog is a studio game developer has gone a
rather well, it's a long time between games for them, right.
Speaker 1 (20:00):
Five years in counting.
Speaker 3 (20:01):
Yeah, and by all accounts, probably we should expect Intergalactic
around the same time we get the Last of Us
season three, Like that's and that's being generous, right, Yeah.
Speaker 1 (20:15):
So Naughty Dog has been.
Speaker 3 (20:18):
Making money by re releasing The Last of Us in
various forms, and hey, that seems to be working for them.
Speaker 1 (20:27):
There are now more there.
Speaker 3 (20:28):
Well, for a minute now, there have been more remakes
of the Last of Us than the actual number of
games in the series, which is pretty funny to think about.
I don't know if any other game has that honor,
maybe Skyrim. So I agree with what a lot of
what you're saying in terms of history does seem to
(20:52):
repeat itself. The second game very much split fans of
the game.
Speaker 1 (21:01):
And.
Speaker 3 (21:03):
Shocker, the same moment where a lot of the fans
of the game beside dropped off the veil or we're
thoroughly upset is exactly where a lot of show watchers
ended their journey as well. And I don't know if
there's a world in which you can tell this story
(21:24):
in this capacity without that incident, although maybe it could
be reworked in some you know, who the fuck am I?
Speaker 1 (21:33):
I'm just a guy who talks.
Speaker 3 (21:34):
To a microphone and enjoys video games and television, right,
there's a great there's a big overlap between my enjoyment
of the things and the creation of these things. I
just don't know if there was a way to rejig
or the story in a manner that was pleasing to everybody,
or if that was even possible given the creative forces
(21:55):
behind it, I don't know how much like that.
Speaker 1 (21:58):
That's the thing.
Speaker 2 (21:59):
I think that's the stalwart part of Neil, Druckman and
Holly with respect to in particular Joel's death, because even
if they were all sitting around in the writer's room
with Craig and somebody brought up while this potentially worked
(22:20):
well for some people in the video game, we really
do not think that this is going to work on
TV because people have a much shorter attention span and
way more options of things to spend their time on
of TV shows, movies, documentaries, literally any fucking thing else
to do on the almost endless amount of streaming services nowadays.
(22:46):
So to knowingly continue down the same fucking path that
caused such incredible backlash for a video game seems fucking
stupid in hindsight for every single person involved. And I
(23:10):
did go into season two quietly hoping that they would
rework Joel's dead And here's the thing. I've said this
so many fucking times. I'm annoyed with myself. Death as
a plot device is the weakest fucking cop out as
a writer. It is so easy to kill off a
main character and then write the story surrounding that. It
(23:34):
is the easiest fucking thing because you are removing an
element that you don't have to spend more time on
in a literal sense. But what you have to do
from that point forward is invest all of that time
that you originally put on that character, in the world
that you created for that character, into the supporting characters
(23:54):
who loved that person or hated that person, or surround
did that person in some way or another. So while
the main character that's been off is still very much
a part of the story and they should be, they
aren't anymore. People's level of focus snaps within, you know,
(24:17):
a quick little vibrate of a phone. These days, we're
a tiny little ding. Yeah. So it's like you have
to understand that the world you are writing for and
the medium you are going to display or present that
story to an audience to makes all the fucking difference.
(24:37):
And if it didn't work in a medium where people
are known to be hyper fucking focused for many hours
of the day, i e. Gamers who can sit there
in their cozy little fucking couch or seat or gaming
chair with their snacky snacks and their feet put up
and comfy socks on. Right, If you are going to
(25:02):
lose those people because of writing and narrative decisions, how
could you keep them with a TV show in twenty
twenty five?
Speaker 1 (25:10):
And as we've seen, they didn't.
Speaker 2 (25:14):
Those people left and it's unfortunate because there were so
many other ways to create a revenge journey that didn't
involve outright murdering the character so early on in the story.
I don't understand it, Like I literally don't understand it,
and I haven't understood it for five years. Why people
(25:34):
think that it's such an extraordinary story when it is
so fucking basic at its core. And this is you know,
we're heading into part two coverage on Wayfair and Strangers
or other podcast which we also want a break from,
and I have to talk about all of this at length,
just under the guise of a game.
Speaker 1 (25:54):
And that's all well and good, and I'll do that
bit by bit.
Speaker 2 (25:59):
But I feel like I can can just kind of
rip the band aid off here because this is all
about Neil, and Neil comes from the game, or the
game came from Neil whatever, and here we are, Yeah,
him and Holly are out Craig Mason's making statement blanket
statements pr fucking bullshit, which I've always just the sidebar
real quick. I've always wondered about like actors, writers, producers, whatever,
(26:25):
when they're interviewed about somebody else that they've worked with,
and they're like, oh my god, they're just so brilliant
and creative and their mind works and such in incredibly
interesting and illuminating ways that it to be in their
presence is just elevating in all the it's just word vomit,
(26:46):
you know. And I'm like, I'm waiting for one person
to be like that person's a fucking asshole and I'd
rather not talk about them next. No, everyone seems to
love everyone in Hollywood, and I'm just like, shut the fuck.
Speaker 1 (27:00):
You get that.
Speaker 3 (27:00):
It's nice to be nice. Look, it's nice to be nice.
You get that occasionally, but it only ever happens years.
Speaker 1 (27:06):
After the fact. You know.
Speaker 3 (27:07):
What I'm saying is like, which is a bitch ass move,
I know, but you know that's that's the nature of
the of the beast. Do you want to go along
to get along? Unfortunately, it is not a acting is
not a meritocracy. It is a uh you know it's
based on who you know, guess Kissingcracy.
Speaker 1 (27:25):
Correct.
Speaker 3 (27:26):
Yeah, and so that's why everybody does what they do.
I want to say here, what I would love to
do is I would like to spoil a few things
of where this was this same premise of someone dying
as the impetus was done. I'll give one that was
done not great, but then I'll give three that were
(27:47):
done in my estimation, really really well. So let me
go ahead and say I'm not going to tell you
what the properties are. I'll tell Jack you have seen
all of these except the bad one, which I know
you'll never watch, so it's not a spoiler for you.
But if you the listener are interested in this, I'm
going to tell you the network that these things aired on,
(28:09):
and you'll know based on what I'm about to say.
Speaker 1 (28:13):
Okay, am I supposed to guess?
Speaker 4 (28:15):
No?
Speaker 3 (28:15):
No, no, you don't have to guess. I'm just I'm
saying that. So if people want to know about of
being spoiled potentially for something the network, it's these are
the biggest shows on the network that I'm about to list. Okay,
So AMC is the first one, Okay, sure, HBO is
the second.
Speaker 1 (28:34):
One, and then the next two, the next.
Speaker 3 (28:37):
Two that I could think of, both were on showtime
at the same time. Okay, both were on showtime. So
if you just just keep that and just keep those
in mind. Okay, so the bad one, amc ready? This
is your last chance to know about before spoilers five
four three two one The Walking Dead Glenn. When Glenn died,
(29:01):
people just left the show.
Speaker 1 (29:04):
Yeah. I even heard about it, and I've never seen
a single episode.
Speaker 3 (29:08):
It was the introduction of a character played by Jeffrey
Dean Morgan, Megan, a very complex and arguably wonderful character eventually, right,
but when his introduction was killing Glenn, who was a
beloved character for five seasons up to that five to
(29:30):
six roughly seasons up to that point, and he killed
another character, Abraham doesn't matter. That was so gratuitously. Yeah,
that was so gratuitous and hyper violent. I had known.
I'd read the book the comic up to that point,
so I knew it was coming. But again, just like
the last of us, a lot of people that didn't
know or have knowledge of that beforehand just said, you
(29:52):
know what, this isn't for me, right, your sister, I
think just stopped watching the show after that, So there
is that to Okay, the next one is HBO. So
think about HBO's biggest show three to two one Game
of Thrones. Okay, here it is ned Stark. This one
is a great one because it backs up exactly what
you said where they surrounded him with a cast of
(30:15):
incredible actors, all with great motivations, and his death was
certainly an inflection point, but it gave everyone a motivation
to continue and move forward. So while the spirit of
Ed continued throughout the show, it all felt good.
Speaker 1 (30:30):
Would you agree with that? Oh?
Speaker 2 (30:32):
Yeah, that was done perfectly. He literally and he died
for something. Yes, that's true. He was prettly died for something.
Joel was just fucking murdered.
Speaker 3 (30:42):
That's true. That's true. The next big one again Showtime.
I'll keep this even vaguer than I have with pre
I won't even name the character. But Dexter season four, okay,
arguably one of the greatest seasons of television ever. There
is a character death in season four that is devastating,
but it makes the main character reflect on all of
(31:06):
the choices made up to that exact moment, and I
would argue change for the better. So that was a
great it meant something, it did, and we had enough
time with this character who died to build a genuine
connection to see them in various circumstances, they themselves had
(31:29):
character growth.
Speaker 1 (31:30):
It was wonderful.
Speaker 3 (31:31):
And then the other one on showtime and I could
keep this one pretty broad too and vague is Homeland.
Speaker 1 (31:39):
Oh yes, I think it was.
Speaker 3 (31:41):
Season two or three of Homeland where I can't remember
the exact one, but someone on Homeland dies, And again,
that was kind of a more ensemble cast, not unlike
Game of Thrones, not unlike The Last of Us, where
everybody had a role to play, and when you remove
someone huge from the equation, everyone else has to rise
(32:02):
up to meet the challenge. And so I just think
Homeland dexter Game of Thrones examples of a great death
that motivated the story move things forward.
Speaker 1 (32:14):
Walking Dead not so much.
Speaker 2 (32:17):
Yeah, Okay, I completely see what you're saying in so
far as like comparisons, and having not even watched The
Walking Dead, I remember the blowback from that, ye and people,
even your sister who was like Walking Dead obsessed, she
was like I'm done. Yeah, that's true that she was
like that was way too much. It was just way
(32:39):
too much. And that's that's what I think. And we
wanted to a podcast to be shorter. I've calmed down
now so I can talk, but like, that's what I think.
The major failing of the story of The Last of
Us Part two, either in video game or TV show whatever.
They tried to do it for shock value, and those
(33:01):
headlines not tried. They did it for shock value to
be like, oh, okay, you think we won't fucking go there,
and they and they did without establishing what fucking happened.
It's just you're not establishing characters in the correct way.
(33:21):
And don't even get me started on Abby's introduction. When
you start a character off inherently as the villain of
the story, that's who they will remain and without a
redemptive arc that actually makes fucking sense for the story,
that character will remain hated. And in my opinion, she
is never redeemed in the game, never, because they did
(33:46):
not allow enough time for it. It was Seattle Day one,
Seattle Day two, Seattle Day three, Ellie, Seattle Day one,
Seattle Day two, Seattle Day three, Abby.
Speaker 1 (33:57):
Three fucking days.
Speaker 2 (33:59):
We went from one one year worth of a time
span in the Last of Us Part one to three
goddamn days. That is the worst writing I have ever
fucking seen in anything, And not only did it actually
happen in Naughty.
Speaker 1 (34:17):
Dog's a Triple A studio.
Speaker 2 (34:19):
I ut a triple A gaming studio, which makes basically
means for you normies out there who don't game, at
the top of the top when it comes to game development, production,
blah blah blah, writing, just everything. If you're thinking, like, Okay,
what's the best network for television, I don't even know anymore.
To be perfectly honest, there's too many of them.
Speaker 1 (34:41):
Or Apple Apple TV is always happening TV is a contender.
Speaker 2 (34:46):
Yeah, So I just I'm going to get off of
this now because I didn't want I didn't want this
episode to be forty minutes long. It's just TLDR. I'm
not surprised, no one should be surprised. I'm glad that
he is out. I hope the show is done because
it completely fucked over whatever potential it could have had
(35:11):
with bad writing, bad directing, poor dialogue, poor acting. As
a result of it all, I think it was miscast
from the start, literally from Pedro and Bella. It's just
it's not what it should have been and could have been. Okay,
So yeah, now as gamers, we wait to see what Intergalactic,
(35:32):
the heretic profit, which is such a fucking mouthful, what
that's going to bring or be ultimately, And again in
a few years we might hear about Neil Druckman exiting
Naughty Dog, and I will once again not be surprised.
Speaker 1 (35:48):
Yeah, I write in.
Speaker 3 (35:50):
And let us know if there's been an opportunity, if
there's if you have experienced a show that has had
a terrible season that then redeemed itself or maybe just
an okay season.
Speaker 1 (36:02):
I don't know.
Speaker 3 (36:03):
I don't know if another example like this exists.
Speaker 2 (36:05):
But no it doesn't because you have you have smaller
shows like Supernatural. I loved super I loved Supernatural very much,
but it had fifteen fucking seasons on a small what
was it the CW no WBWB No, it was the
WBS NCW, you know, but like after season five it
got it was rough, Like season six and seven were
(36:25):
fucking terrible, and then they got rid of the problem
people and brought in better writers and it kind of
you know, they got it back on track, but it
still never was what it once was in seasons one
to five.
Speaker 3 (36:40):
Yeah, And in fairness, no show is good beyond like
six or seven seasons. It just you can't. That's not sustainable.
No show is good beyond that that long you well,
it's not. No, it literally can't, like you have to
have an ending shows. There's different perpetuity. There's different grades
(37:01):
of TV shows though, I.
Speaker 2 (37:03):
Know if we're talking about prestige, yes, those kind of
TV shows like Smallville, Supernatural, even Roswell New Mexico, which
is the remake of Roswell from nineteen ninety nine to
two thousand and two, like those kind of I hate
to use this word, but like small fry TV shows
(37:25):
are fine to do you know, ten, fifteen, even twenty
season like Gray's Anatomy I think is in season twenty
fucking one or two or some shit. Now, I've never
seen a single episode of that either. It's not there's
no there's no millions of dollars on the line for
shows like that. It just it's easy to make, it's
easy to produce, it's simple to write. People go into
(37:48):
it expecting exactly what they get and they are happy
nine times out of ten. But when you look at
the Presti's television shows, if Breaking Bed had continued on
to season ten, eleven, twelve, we wouldn't have cared anymore. Yes,
like what would have been dead for years? And then
what we're following around Skyler like it doesn't matter the
same thing with Game of Thrones. Well, Game of Throne
(38:10):
season eight was a travesty.
Speaker 1 (38:13):
Seven is a magic number for prestige television. I'm telling
you anyway, let us know your thoughts.
Speaker 2 (38:18):
I know that my opinions are very severe, and once again,
I don't need to hear that because I know exactly
who and what I am, and I I'm a vibes
person and I do not get good vibes from the
people that I've talked about on this show today, and
that's how I see it, and that's never going to change.
So you know, I'm sorry if that upsets any kind
(38:41):
of sensitivities you have towards the creatives of creatives or
creators of certain things. But it is what it is.
We'll never know the full truth, so your idea is
as good as mine.
Speaker 1 (38:51):
So okay, there it is. Yeah we did it, But.
Speaker 2 (38:56):
Thank you for listening to our special little episode, and
if you would like to follow us, you can do
that over on Instagram at telu Podcasts. If you'd like
to email us, you can do that at telupodcast at
gmail dot com. You can find me on Instagram at
jaded Vader or Through Wilderness, thhru Wilderness or Dark Driving
(39:17):
for Andrew.
Speaker 1 (39:18):
That's right.
Speaker 2 (39:19):
We appreciated all of the Spotify reviews and feedback, and
we welcome what dreams may come. And our Patreon is
still up and active, and we still have wonderful subscribers.
So I want to give a shout out to these
incredible people who support our show even though we haven't
(39:39):
had content in a month. So Ozzie or Wan, Jick
and Barb Treyus Light nine ten, the Good Craig and
the Ghost of Mister Joel, thank you so much for
supporting this show. I know this unintended hiatus kind of sucks.
(39:59):
It sucks for us too, but I'm very much trying
to take care of my mental health. That is, like
my main goal in twenty twenty five is to just
be and live my healthiest, fittest life, and I am
doing that and proud of myself for it, and this
show crippled my energy for a month after Literally it
(40:23):
took about three weeks for me to feel good after
the show was done. And that's not normal. So I'm
just taking the time that I need and we'll be
back there.
Speaker 1 (40:35):
It is.
Speaker 2 (40:35):
So Yeah, we appreciate you and thank you for listening
to this episode. And we're curious to know your thoughts.
Do you align more with Andrew or do you align
more with me? Or are you somewhere in the middle.
Let us know and if you are interested in a
very quiet Patreon patreon dot com slash.
Speaker 3 (40:57):
To you the podcast Donze donze Hey, have.
Speaker 1 (40:59):
A good time. I agree, I agree. Have a good summer.
Speaker 2 (41:03):
Stay out of the heat, hydrate yourself, go to the gym,
go for some walks. Take care of yourself. Your health
is your wealth. That is the most important thing that
we have. And I want you to take care of yourself.
I want that for you. Even if you think that
you can't do it, I believe that you can. You
(41:23):
can eat better, you can drink more water, you can
move your body no matter where you are starting from.
I'm your fucking cheerleader. I got you. I'm in your corner.
I'm holding up, whatever sign you need, whatever, just maybe
I'll photoshop. I'll have Andrew take a picture of me
with a fucking cardboard cut out and you can write
(41:44):
whatever you need on there, and I will be that
person for you. And Andrew will too, because he's the
most incredible support person in the world. Was it all
these jackformations, jackformations? I fucking love it. See he just
kind of he built me up while I'm building you up.
Speaker 1 (41:59):
So take care of yourself. You're fucking worth that.
Speaker 2 (42:03):
And yeah, we'll be back soon ish, not soon, eventually.
You know, time does fly, so we'll be back sooner
rather than later.
Speaker 4 (42:12):
So bye now, yeah bye. And in
Welcome to the last cast.
Speaker 2 (00:28):
And that's all I'm going to say as far as
the intro goes, because we finished recording the season at
the end of May, and I don't think we need
an official statement or intro paragraph. Everyone knows who we are,
so welcome to this special bonus episode. Drop, and Andrew,
(00:48):
why why are we doing this special?
Speaker 1 (00:52):
Drop? How about you tell.
Speaker 3 (00:53):
Everyone breaking news, breaking news coming down the wire. We
just got confirmation recently, was two days ago, three days ago,
that Neil has exited the show. He has in Holly
and Holly has followed behind. Now here's something interesting. The
(01:17):
statement that that was put out there by I believe
it was Neil on his own socials as well as
the official HBO last of US channels, suggests that he
decided to exit before any meaningful work had begun on
season three of the show, which is interesting language.
Speaker 2 (01:40):
Interesting language. So that's why we're here. Yeah, meaningful is
the keyword. I actually, just as we are recording this,
I just came across a statement made by Craig Mason.
Oh yeah yeah, and it says, to quote Mazon, I
(02:00):
couldn't have asked for a more generous creative partner. As
a true fan of Naughty Dog and Neil's work in
video games, I'm beyond excited to play his next game.
While he focuses on that, I'll continue to work with
our brilliant cast and crew to deliver the show our
audience has come to expect. We are so grateful to
Neil and Holly Gross for and trusting the incredible story
(02:21):
of The Last of Us Part two to us, and
we're just as grateful to the millions of people around
the world.
Speaker 1 (02:25):
Who tune in. Yeah, what are we thinking?
Speaker 3 (02:29):
So?
Speaker 2 (02:30):
I am thinking quite a bit, But I know that
my die tribe, love and ass is going to go.
Speaker 1 (02:41):
On and on and on.
Speaker 2 (02:42):
So how about you share with everyone first how you
are feeling about this news.
Speaker 3 (02:47):
Okay, I'm going to break this down and do a
couple discrete parts here, but very small. Okay, So my
first thought is PlayStation Slash Naughty Dog needs Neil more
than HBO needs Neil. HBO just needs the property. They
don't need the guy involved in creating the property, right,
(03:11):
And I take his statement at face value. He is
at his core a video games guy, right, and Hollywood
is a different thing than video games, clearly, So if
he's telling me that he wants to turn all of
his attention to working on the new game, which has
been announced and is obviously an active development. Then that's great.
(03:31):
I would much prefer that. Right on the other side
of that, it's not just it wasn't just Neil that left.
It was Halle as well, or Haley. I never know
how to pronounce her name, but whatever'll Hally, I'll try all.
Speaker 1 (03:47):
Three at the same time.
Speaker 3 (03:48):
And that suggests more of a tense kind of situation,
like both of the creatives that were involved in the
original story have now left seemingly of their own volition,
but we don't know.
Speaker 1 (04:05):
What happens behind the scenes.
Speaker 3 (04:06):
Maybe we'll hear about it a few months or years
down the line or whatever.
Speaker 1 (04:09):
But if it was just one.
Speaker 3 (04:12):
Of them leaving, I'd be like, oh, that's okay. But
it's both within a day of each other, or maybe
the same day. I can't even remember what the actual
the same day, yeah, whatever the timing shook out to be.
And so my thought on that is it's very rarely,
if ever, has it worked out having two directors on
(04:36):
a project. Now, even some of my favorites, if we
were to take this in the Hollywood direction. One of
the greatest dynamic duos working still not even together, but
the Cohen brothers, right, I love their movies, but as
they work, they alternate directing duties. It's never directed by
(04:59):
the Cohen brothers. It is directed by Joel or Ethan,
never both. And so I feel like there is this
tension kind of that like between the guy who created
the original and the guy who's working on this new
version of it, that they're just butt heads and it.
You know, we don't know what happens behind the scenes,
(05:22):
but my thought there is that it's a little bit
of both. Like Neil's like, well, I don't actually need
this bullshit because I have I have a job over
here with these guys, right, that naughty dog, you know,
And so that's that's kind of what I'm thinking. It
seems like a culmination of a lot of different things
(05:43):
overall the series. The numbers seem good, right, like not
not a not rip Rorn's success at all, well, not
a ripror in success, right, but like in terms of
HBO prestige television, they fit within the parameters of what
HBO is looking for in terms of numbers, right. It
(06:05):
wasn't like, oh, under, it's not like the Idol or
one of those other shows. It was like, not even
a million people watch this or something. You know what
I'm saying, Like.
Speaker 2 (06:13):
Yeah, but a fifty five percent viewership drop off after
episode two for the remainder of the season is enormous.
Speaker 3 (06:21):
Yeah, and they had to have known that was coming
after Joel, after Joel, right after what many people would
argue is the star of the show gets killed. Anecdotally Pedro, Yeah, anecdotally,
I'm Pedro. There's the Pedro of it, all right. Anecdotally.
(06:43):
I work with somebody who's like, you know, going on
seventy very I think I might have talked about this.
Speaker 1 (06:48):
Joe.
Speaker 3 (06:49):
I work with very savvy when it comes to television,
watches a lot, interacts with it, has great media literacy.
He found the season. He't too insufferable. He's just enormy.
He's never The last video game he played was Pong, probably,
you know what I'm saying, Like, you know, that's just
(07:10):
the reality of the situation. I feel like his opinion
reflects many people, well clearly at least half the audience,
right like where they're like, I don't understand what these
people are doing. I don't know why I'm supposed to care.
I don't know why they did this. At XYZ, he
made a lot of really great points, And yeah, I
(07:35):
think those things can happen when you have two quote
unquote directors behind the scenes. There is a director of
the original vision, there is the director of the new vision,
and then you get this thing that's disjointed where it's
like it serves a little bit of this original audience
and it's trying to serve this other master of a
(07:57):
television audience, and those two ideas are incompatible. And so
that's kind of where you land in this situation. So
that's really all I have to say overall. Now we'll
know is what this is the great part.
Speaker 1 (08:17):
Now we'll know.
Speaker 3 (08:19):
If it was hewing too close to the source material
because Neil was there or because or if this is
all Craig John. You know what I'm saying, Like Season
three will be the determining factor. And I can't say
that I'm really looking forward to it, especially if work
has not started in earnest yet. That definitely means we're two,
(08:40):
two and a half maybe three years out from seeing
literally anything. So a lot to think about here a
lot to process. Sure, I just know that you have
a lot to say about this, So I'm.
Speaker 2 (08:53):
Just waiting for you to give me the queue, and
then I will not shut the fuck up until the
episode's done.
Speaker 3 (08:57):
I think that's it. I think that's it for me. Cautiously,
I don't know. Now it's different. It's different now, do
you know what I'm saying? Like it has changed hands.
Speaker 2 (09:09):
It changed hands the entire second fucking season. Just because
it looked like the last of Us didn't mean it
had a fuck all to do with it.
Speaker 1 (09:20):
And I'm completely on the other.
Speaker 2 (09:23):
Side of this. Yeah, I'm completely I'm not mad at Andrew.
I'm not mad at all. I just think this is
fucking hilarious. And I feel like I've called this since
the beginning because I do not like Neil Druckman, and
I do not like Holly Haley whatever the fuck gross,
and she's nothing but his ankle biting shadow, so wherever
he goes, she goes, So I do not care one
(09:46):
bit about her in this whatsoever, because some of her
fucking ideas for Part two were sinister and disgusting, So
I'm not even she's not I'm not wasting my breath
on her anymore. Beyond that, the amount of concepts go
going back to early days of the Last of Us
Part one, where he only wanted women to be infected
(10:06):
with the CBI virus or whatever, and this, that and
the other, because I mean, can we just stop and
think about the implications of that. He just wanted women
to be the carriers of this world ending fucking plague
that I'm so fucking glad someone was like, hey, Neil,
that's a big fucking problem. Maybe we don't do that.
(10:27):
Thank god somebody spoke up. And then beyond that, he
wanted to torture and kill Joel in the first fucking
five seconds with Tess because Joel killed Tess's brother and
Tess needed to get him back. Like he just is
hung up and has been from day one of torturing
and killing the main character of his own fucking story,
(10:50):
which is demented in my opinion.
Speaker 1 (10:53):
But we don't need to go into.
Speaker 2 (10:54):
The psychosis and psychology of it all the way that
I see this whole o charade the past few days,
which people have been blowing up our dms about, I
just sent a five minute fucking voice message to someone
through DMS because they were so curious to know our opinion,
and that's why I was like, we need to do
this episode right now to get over and done with.
(11:16):
So I think that this is the biggest fucking cowardice
or he was fired. It's either one or the other.
I don't think it comes down to creative differences. I
don't think it comes down to, well, this is my
sandbox and how dare you build a castle where I
already built a castle, but yours is just different and
(11:39):
bigger like it. I don't have any fucking inkling that
that's what this is. I think HBO fucking dumped his
ass because Craig Mason is still their golden boy. And
like you said, Niil's a video game guy. Who are
(12:00):
you going to cut first out of this equation? The
guy who has made a wildly successful TV show in
Chernobyl and has a history of being an actor and
working on various shows for various networks, so knows the
industry of movie making and TV show making more than
someone from a video game background. Or are you gonna
(12:22):
get rid of the guy who just directed one or
two episodes and just kind of hopped along because it
was his idea, give me a fucking break. Neil was
first on the shopping block. I will not be surprised
if Craig gets the acts next. And even though we
read that recent statement that he just dropped wherever and whenever,
I don't give a shit. I just I'm still so angry.
(12:44):
And this is why we took a break from podcasting,
because of the absolute dissolution of the source material, which
was already, in my opinion, very bad when it comes
to Last of Us Part two. So I went into
this thinking, maybe they'll take that source material and the
enormous plot holes that were part of the Last of
(13:04):
Us Part two video game and fill them in and
make it better. And what did they do? Not that
not fucking that. They took the potholes and they were like,
aren't these pretty? Aren't these great? Let's add seven thousand more?
And that's what Season two was, just one big, giant
waste of fucking time. And everyone in the comments section
(13:26):
it is split down the middle between yeah, Neil, go guy.
Speaker 1 (13:31):
You're awesome, We'll follow you anywhere to.
Speaker 2 (13:35):
Wow, he's jumping ship, what a fucking loser, blah blah
blah like and I'm I'm not gonna sit here and
say he's a loser who gives a fuck. My opinion
doesn't matter. The only thing I will say is it
is cowardice. He sat by with his pockets fully fucking
flush with cash from HBO and watched his characters be
(13:55):
absolutely decimated week after week for seven weeks in season two.
And I think two of those episodes he directed, so
he directly was hands on in all of that. And
you want me to believe that this is anything other
than HBO going, we're gonna, We're gonna, we have to
(14:16):
trim the fat, because clearly something failed with this season,
with the steep drop off in viewership, with the absolute
vitriol online about the show, because it's not just our
little podcast anymore.
Speaker 1 (14:30):
It is every fucking podcast.
Speaker 2 (14:32):
It is all the blogs, all the fucking this that,
And I don't even know if blogs are still a thing.
I'll tell old I am, but like all of them,
do not like this show anymore, and people are leaving.
And I wouldn't be surprised if Caitlyn Deaver reaches her
contract and leaves, like especially because you brought up a
good point of the Neil's line of meaningful work done
(14:53):
on season three. We are now a month out from
season two ending and they haven't even fucking started working
on season three. Like this is how important this show is.
Give me a fucking break, I would again, I won't
be surprised if Craig gets the acts or if the
show is canceled outright, and to be honest.
Speaker 1 (15:12):
Good riddance.
Speaker 2 (15:14):
But beyond what all the stuff I just said, I
also feel like, and I have no way of knowing this,
nothing other than my gut, which I've trusted my entire
life and has never steered me wrong. I feel like
Neil is under a microscope from not only well not
(15:38):
HBO anymore, but certainly for a time HBO, I think
Naughty Dog and PlayStation because I think that the severe
divisiveness that the Last of Us Part two caused in
the fandom and has now been adapted in part for
(15:59):
the big screene people are seeing a direct line to
Neil Druckman of can this guy actually do what we
have all believed he can do? Because I see people
all the time. Oh he's a genius. Oh he's a
give me a fucking break. He wrote a revenge story,
(16:22):
that's it, and It works well in a video game
because you have fighting in battle and combat mechanics, but
when you adapt a bad story into a TV show
and oh surprise, season two is absolute shit, we have
to go back to the source material. And that's where
I think the rot is starting to show. And it
(16:45):
makes me both sad because the Last of Us Part
one is and always will be my favorite game of
all time. It is extremely close to my heart. Honestly,
it's part of my DNA at this point, and to
see what has become of this series is beyond heartbreaking,
and it just keeps getting worse. And this was something
(17:07):
that I wanted to talk about when we started our emails,
our email covers for the last cast, which we are
recording throughout the summer, and all of those episodes will
drop in the fall. And I'm sorry if this upsets people.
I'm sorry if anything I've said, no, I'm not sorry
because they are my opinions, but I apologize if you
get upset as a result of anything I've said on
this episode today.
Speaker 1 (17:29):
There's my sweeping statement. Just remember I said that.
Speaker 2 (17:32):
However, I maintain always that the Last of Us Part
two narrative is a terrible story, And when you adapt
a terrible story from one medium to the next and
it turns out to be terrible, I mean, do I
have to say it like it? I felt almost vindicated.
I'm like, yeah, because the story was shit. And oh,
(17:56):
everyone's mad at the second show because they're like, this
fucking sucks, Like this is a bad story, this is
bad acting, this is terrible dialogue and writing, Like what
are we fucking watching here? The actors had nothing to
work with because there was nothing to work with. I
do I feel like there's a bigger problem here. And
I feel like Neil is certainly feeling heat from multiple sources,
(18:21):
and or at least was up until the release of
the statement. And now you know he doesn't have to
worry about HBO bearing down on him anymore.
Speaker 1 (18:30):
I don't know.
Speaker 2 (18:30):
I see it as him part one saving face. Part
two he probably was fired if it wasn't saving face.
And part three, naughty dog is pulling the fucking leash
back and just being like, get your shit together.
Speaker 1 (18:44):
I saw what you did there.
Speaker 3 (18:46):
Yeah, because it's a naughty dog the leash.
Speaker 2 (18:50):
See now it's not funny because you explained it. That's
that's the that's the point like that they are. I
think he's strayed too far. And you know, it was
Part two successful, yes, in some ways, but I think
in a lot of ways it wasn't. And if Intergalactic
proves to be a failure, I think Nil's out the door. Yeah,
(19:13):
I mean sure, yes, see, I mean this is millions
upon millions of dollars. It does not at the end
of the day, the people on the board of these
fucking networks and companies and studios when they sit down
and they look at their statistics and their fucking financial data,
and one plus one doesn't equal to It doesn't fucking
(19:37):
matter what your name is or what history you have
at a company. You're gone. You're done. To quote Tony Baker.
Speaker 1 (19:45):
You're done. Yeah.
Speaker 3 (19:47):
Naughty Dog is a studio game developer has gone a
rather well, it's a long time between games for them, right.
Speaker 1 (20:00):
Five years in counting.
Speaker 3 (20:01):
Yeah, and by all accounts, probably we should expect Intergalactic
around the same time we get the Last of Us
season three, Like that's and that's being generous, right, Yeah.
Speaker 1 (20:15):
So Naughty Dog has been.
Speaker 3 (20:18):
Making money by re releasing The Last of Us in
various forms, and hey, that seems to be working for them.
Speaker 1 (20:27):
There are now more there.
Speaker 3 (20:28):
Well, for a minute now, there have been more remakes
of the Last of Us than the actual number of
games in the series, which is pretty funny to think about.
I don't know if any other game has that honor,
maybe Skyrim. So I agree with what a lot of
what you're saying in terms of history does seem to
(20:52):
repeat itself. The second game very much split fans of
the game.
Speaker 1 (21:01):
And.
Speaker 3 (21:03):
Shocker, the same moment where a lot of the fans
of the game beside dropped off the veil or we're
thoroughly upset is exactly where a lot of show watchers
ended their journey as well. And I don't know if
there's a world in which you can tell this story
(21:24):
in this capacity without that incident, although maybe it could
be reworked in some you know, who the fuck am I?
Speaker 1 (21:33):
I'm just a guy who talks.
Speaker 3 (21:34):
To a microphone and enjoys video games and television, right,
there's a great there's a big overlap between my enjoyment
of the things and the creation of these things. I
just don't know if there was a way to rejig
or the story in a manner that was pleasing to everybody,
or if that was even possible given the creative forces
(21:55):
behind it, I don't know how much like that.
Speaker 1 (21:58):
That's the thing.
Speaker 2 (21:59):
I think that's the stalwart part of Neil, Druckman and
Holly with respect to in particular Joel's death, because even
if they were all sitting around in the writer's room
with Craig and somebody brought up while this potentially worked
(22:20):
well for some people in the video game, we really
do not think that this is going to work on
TV because people have a much shorter attention span and
way more options of things to spend their time on
of TV shows, movies, documentaries, literally any fucking thing else
to do on the almost endless amount of streaming services nowadays.
(22:46):
So to knowingly continue down the same fucking path that
caused such incredible backlash for a video game seems fucking
stupid in hindsight for every single person involved. And I
(23:10):
did go into season two quietly hoping that they would
rework Joel's dead And here's the thing. I've said this
so many fucking times. I'm annoyed with myself. Death as
a plot device is the weakest fucking cop out as
a writer. It is so easy to kill off a
main character and then write the story surrounding that. It
(23:34):
is the easiest fucking thing because you are removing an
element that you don't have to spend more time on
in a literal sense. But what you have to do
from that point forward is invest all of that time
that you originally put on that character, in the world
that you created for that character, into the supporting characters
(23:54):
who loved that person or hated that person, or surround
did that person in some way or another. So while
the main character that's been off is still very much
a part of the story and they should be, they
aren't anymore. People's level of focus snaps within, you know,
(24:17):
a quick little vibrate of a phone. These days, we're
a tiny little ding. Yeah. So it's like you have
to understand that the world you are writing for and
the medium you are going to display or present that
story to an audience to makes all the fucking difference.
(24:37):
And if it didn't work in a medium where people
are known to be hyper fucking focused for many hours
of the day, i e. Gamers who can sit there
in their cozy little fucking couch or seat or gaming
chair with their snacky snacks and their feet put up
and comfy socks on. Right, If you are going to
(25:02):
lose those people because of writing and narrative decisions, how
could you keep them with a TV show in twenty
twenty five?
Speaker 1 (25:10):
And as we've seen, they didn't.
Speaker 2 (25:14):
Those people left and it's unfortunate because there were so
many other ways to create a revenge journey that didn't
involve outright murdering the character so early on in the story.
I don't understand it, Like I literally don't understand it,
and I haven't understood it for five years. Why people
(25:34):
think that it's such an extraordinary story when it is
so fucking basic at its core. And this is you know,
we're heading into part two coverage on Wayfair and Strangers
or other podcast which we also want a break from,
and I have to talk about all of this at length,
just under the guise of a game.
Speaker 1 (25:54):
And that's all well and good, and I'll do that
bit by bit.
Speaker 2 (25:59):
But I feel like I can can just kind of
rip the band aid off here because this is all
about Neil, and Neil comes from the game, or the
game came from Neil whatever, and here we are, Yeah,
him and Holly are out Craig Mason's making statement blanket
statements pr fucking bullshit, which I've always just the sidebar
real quick. I've always wondered about like actors, writers, producers, whatever,
(26:25):
when they're interviewed about somebody else that they've worked with,
and they're like, oh my god, they're just so brilliant
and creative and their mind works and such in incredibly
interesting and illuminating ways that it to be in their
presence is just elevating in all the it's just word vomit,
(26:46):
you know. And I'm like, I'm waiting for one person
to be like that person's a fucking asshole and I'd
rather not talk about them next. No, everyone seems to
love everyone in Hollywood, and I'm just like, shut the fuck.
Speaker 1 (27:00):
You get that.
Speaker 3 (27:00):
It's nice to be nice. Look, it's nice to be nice.
You get that occasionally, but it only ever happens years.
Speaker 1 (27:06):
After the fact. You know.
Speaker 3 (27:07):
What I'm saying is like, which is a bitch ass move,
I know, but you know that's that's the nature of
the of the beast. Do you want to go along
to get along? Unfortunately, it is not a acting is
not a meritocracy. It is a uh you know it's
based on who you know, guess Kissingcracy.
Speaker 1 (27:25):
Correct.
Speaker 3 (27:26):
Yeah, and so that's why everybody does what they do.
I want to say here, what I would love to
do is I would like to spoil a few things
of where this was this same premise of someone dying
as the impetus was done. I'll give one that was
done not great, but then I'll give three that were
(27:47):
done in my estimation, really really well. So let me
go ahead and say I'm not going to tell you
what the properties are. I'll tell Jack you have seen
all of these except the bad one, which I know
you'll never watch, so it's not a spoiler for you.
But if you the listener are interested in this, I'm
going to tell you the network that these things aired on,
(28:09):
and you'll know based on what I'm about to say.
Speaker 1 (28:13):
Okay, am I supposed to guess?
Speaker 4 (28:15):
No?
Speaker 3 (28:15):
No, no, you don't have to guess. I'm just I'm
saying that. So if people want to know about of
being spoiled potentially for something the network, it's these are
the biggest shows on the network that I'm about to list. Okay,
So AMC is the first one, Okay, sure, HBO is
the second.
Speaker 1 (28:34):
One, and then the next two, the next.
Speaker 3 (28:37):
Two that I could think of, both were on showtime
at the same time. Okay, both were on showtime. So
if you just just keep that and just keep those
in mind. Okay, so the bad one, amc ready? This
is your last chance to know about before spoilers five
four three two one The Walking Dead Glenn. When Glenn died,
(29:01):
people just left the show.
Speaker 1 (29:04):
Yeah. I even heard about it, and I've never seen
a single episode.
Speaker 3 (29:08):
It was the introduction of a character played by Jeffrey
Dean Morgan, Megan, a very complex and arguably wonderful character eventually, right,
but when his introduction was killing Glenn, who was a
beloved character for five seasons up to that five to
(29:30):
six roughly seasons up to that point, and he killed
another character, Abraham doesn't matter. That was so gratuitously. Yeah,
that was so gratuitous and hyper violent. I had known.
I'd read the book the comic up to that point,
so I knew it was coming. But again, just like
the last of us, a lot of people that didn't
know or have knowledge of that beforehand just said, you
(29:52):
know what, this isn't for me, right, your sister, I
think just stopped watching the show after that, So there
is that to Okay, the next one is HBO. So
think about HBO's biggest show three to two one Game
of Thrones. Okay, here it is ned Stark. This one
is a great one because it backs up exactly what
you said where they surrounded him with a cast of
(30:15):
incredible actors, all with great motivations, and his death was
certainly an inflection point, but it gave everyone a motivation
to continue and move forward. So while the spirit of
Ed continued throughout the show, it all felt good.
Speaker 1 (30:30):
Would you agree with that? Oh?
Speaker 2 (30:32):
Yeah, that was done perfectly. He literally and he died
for something. Yes, that's true. He was prettly died for something.
Joel was just fucking murdered.
Speaker 3 (30:42):
That's true. That's true. The next big one again Showtime.
I'll keep this even vaguer than I have with pre
I won't even name the character. But Dexter season four, okay,
arguably one of the greatest seasons of television ever. There
is a character death in season four that is devastating,
but it makes the main character reflect on all of
(31:06):
the choices made up to that exact moment, and I
would argue change for the better. So that was a
great it meant something, it did, and we had enough
time with this character who died to build a genuine
connection to see them in various circumstances, they themselves had
(31:29):
character growth.
Speaker 1 (31:30):
It was wonderful.
Speaker 3 (31:31):
And then the other one on showtime and I could
keep this one pretty broad too and vague is Homeland.
Speaker 1 (31:39):
Oh yes, I think it was.
Speaker 3 (31:41):
Season two or three of Homeland where I can't remember
the exact one, but someone on Homeland dies, And again,
that was kind of a more ensemble cast, not unlike
Game of Thrones, not unlike The Last of Us, where
everybody had a role to play, and when you remove
someone huge from the equation, everyone else has to rise
(32:02):
up to meet the challenge. And so I just think
Homeland dexter Game of Thrones examples of a great death
that motivated the story move things forward.
Speaker 1 (32:14):
Walking Dead not so much.
Speaker 2 (32:17):
Yeah, Okay, I completely see what you're saying in so
far as like comparisons, and having not even watched The
Walking Dead, I remember the blowback from that, ye and people,
even your sister who was like Walking Dead obsessed, she
was like I'm done. Yeah, that's true that she was
like that was way too much. It was just way
(32:39):
too much. And that's that's what I think. And we
wanted to a podcast to be shorter. I've calmed down
now so I can talk, but like, that's what I think.
The major failing of the story of The Last of
Us Part two, either in video game or TV show whatever.
They tried to do it for shock value, and those
(33:01):
headlines not tried. They did it for shock value to
be like, oh, okay, you think we won't fucking go there,
and they and they did without establishing what fucking happened.
It's just you're not establishing characters in the correct way.
(33:21):
And don't even get me started on Abby's introduction. When
you start a character off inherently as the villain of
the story, that's who they will remain and without a
redemptive arc that actually makes fucking sense for the story,
that character will remain hated. And in my opinion, she
is never redeemed in the game, never, because they did
(33:46):
not allow enough time for it. It was Seattle Day one,
Seattle Day two, Seattle Day three, Ellie, Seattle Day one,
Seattle Day two, Seattle Day three, Abby.
Speaker 1 (33:57):
Three fucking days.
Speaker 2 (33:59):
We went from one one year worth of a time
span in the Last of Us Part one to three
goddamn days. That is the worst writing I have ever
fucking seen in anything, And not only did it actually
happen in Naughty.
Speaker 1 (34:17):
Dog's a Triple A studio.
Speaker 2 (34:19):
I ut a triple A gaming studio, which makes basically
means for you normies out there who don't game, at
the top of the top when it comes to game development, production,
blah blah blah, writing, just everything. If you're thinking, like, Okay,
what's the best network for television, I don't even know anymore.
To be perfectly honest, there's too many of them.
Speaker 1 (34:41):
Or Apple Apple TV is always happening TV is a contender.
Speaker 2 (34:46):
Yeah, So I just I'm going to get off of
this now because I didn't want I didn't want this
episode to be forty minutes long. It's just TLDR. I'm
not surprised, no one should be surprised. I'm glad that
he is out. I hope the show is done because
it completely fucked over whatever potential it could have had
(35:11):
with bad writing, bad directing, poor dialogue, poor acting. As
a result of it all, I think it was miscast
from the start, literally from Pedro and Bella. It's just
it's not what it should have been and could have been. Okay,
So yeah, now as gamers, we wait to see what Intergalactic,
(35:32):
the heretic profit, which is such a fucking mouthful, what
that's going to bring or be ultimately, And again in
a few years we might hear about Neil Druckman exiting
Naughty Dog, and I will once again not be surprised.
Speaker 1 (35:48):
Yeah, I write in.
Speaker 3 (35:50):
And let us know if there's been an opportunity, if
there's if you have experienced a show that has had
a terrible season that then redeemed itself or maybe just
an okay season.
Speaker 1 (36:02):
I don't know.
Speaker 3 (36:03):
I don't know if another example like this exists.
Speaker 2 (36:05):
But no it doesn't because you have you have smaller
shows like Supernatural. I loved super I loved Supernatural very much,
but it had fifteen fucking seasons on a small what
was it the CW no WBWB No, it was the
WBS NCW, you know, but like after season five it
got it was rough, Like season six and seven were
(36:25):
fucking terrible, and then they got rid of the problem
people and brought in better writers and it kind of
you know, they got it back on track, but it
still never was what it once was in seasons one
to five.
Speaker 3 (36:40):
Yeah, And in fairness, no show is good beyond like
six or seven seasons. It just you can't. That's not sustainable.
No show is good beyond that that long you well,
it's not. No, it literally can't, like you have to
have an ending shows. There's different perpetuity. There's different grades
(37:01):
of TV shows though, I.
Speaker 2 (37:03):
Know if we're talking about prestige, yes, those kind of
TV shows like Smallville, Supernatural, even Roswell New Mexico, which
is the remake of Roswell from nineteen ninety nine to
two thousand and two, like those kind of I hate
to use this word, but like small fry TV shows
(37:25):
are fine to do you know, ten, fifteen, even twenty
season like Gray's Anatomy I think is in season twenty
fucking one or two or some shit. Now, I've never
seen a single episode of that either. It's not there's
no there's no millions of dollars on the line for
shows like that. It just it's easy to make, it's
easy to produce, it's simple to write. People go into
(37:48):
it expecting exactly what they get and they are happy
nine times out of ten. But when you look at
the Presti's television shows, if Breaking Bed had continued on
to season ten, eleven, twelve, we wouldn't have cared anymore. Yes,
like what would have been dead for years? And then
what we're following around Skyler like it doesn't matter the
same thing with Game of Thrones. Well, Game of Throne
(38:10):
season eight was a travesty.
Speaker 1 (38:13):
Seven is a magic number for prestige television. I'm telling
you anyway, let us know your thoughts.
Speaker 2 (38:18):
I know that my opinions are very severe, and once again,
I don't need to hear that because I know exactly
who and what I am, and I I'm a vibes
person and I do not get good vibes from the
people that I've talked about on this show today, and
that's how I see it, and that's never going to change.
So you know, I'm sorry if that upsets any kind
(38:41):
of sensitivities you have towards the creatives of creatives or
creators of certain things. But it is what it is.
We'll never know the full truth, so your idea is
as good as mine.
Speaker 1 (38:51):
So okay, there it is. Yeah we did it, But.
Speaker 2 (38:56):
Thank you for listening to our special little episode, and
if you would like to follow us, you can do
that over on Instagram at telu Podcasts. If you'd like
to email us, you can do that at telupodcast at
gmail dot com. You can find me on Instagram at
jaded Vader or Through Wilderness, thhru Wilderness or Dark Driving
(39:17):
for Andrew.
Speaker 1 (39:18):
That's right.
Speaker 2 (39:19):
We appreciated all of the Spotify reviews and feedback, and
we welcome what dreams may come. And our Patreon is
still up and active, and we still have wonderful subscribers.
So I want to give a shout out to these
incredible people who support our show even though we haven't
(39:39):
had content in a month. So Ozzie or Wan, Jick
and Barb Treyus Light nine ten, the Good Craig and
the Ghost of Mister Joel, thank you so much for
supporting this show. I know this unintended hiatus kind of sucks.
(39:59):
It sucks for us too, but I'm very much trying
to take care of my mental health. That is, like
my main goal in twenty twenty five is to just
be and live my healthiest, fittest life, and I am
doing that and proud of myself for it, and this
show crippled my energy for a month after Literally it
(40:23):
took about three weeks for me to feel good after
the show was done. And that's not normal. So I'm
just taking the time that I need and we'll be
back there.
Speaker 1 (40:35):
It is.
Speaker 2 (40:35):
So Yeah, we appreciate you and thank you for listening
to this episode. And we're curious to know your thoughts.
Do you align more with Andrew or do you align
more with me? Or are you somewhere in the middle.
Let us know and if you are interested in a
very quiet Patreon patreon dot com slash.
Speaker 3 (40:57):
To you the podcast Donze donze Hey, have.
Speaker 1 (40:59):
A good time. I agree, I agree. Have a good summer.
Speaker 2 (41:03):
Stay out of the heat, hydrate yourself, go to the gym,
go for some walks. Take care of yourself. Your health
is your wealth. That is the most important thing that
we have. And I want you to take care of yourself.
I want that for you. Even if you think that
you can't do it, I believe that you can. You
(41:23):
can eat better, you can drink more water, you can
move your body no matter where you are starting from.
I'm your fucking cheerleader. I got you. I'm in your corner.
I'm holding up, whatever sign you need, whatever, just maybe
I'll photoshop. I'll have Andrew take a picture of me
with a fucking cardboard cut out and you can write
(41:44):
whatever you need on there, and I will be that
person for you. And Andrew will too, because he's the
most incredible support person in the world. Was it all
these jackformations, jackformations? I fucking love it. See he just
kind of he built me up while I'm building you up.
Speaker 1 (41:59):
So take care of yourself. You're fucking worth that.
Speaker 2 (42:03):
And yeah, we'll be back soon ish, not soon, eventually.
You know, time does fly, so we'll be back sooner
rather than later.
Speaker 4 (42:12):
So bye now, yeah bye. And in
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