September 2, 2025 • 41 mins
**Content Warning: The following episode features the story of a survivor of Jeffrey Epstein, references sexual assault, and may be triggering. Please take care.**
This week, Rick sits down with Jess Michaels, who is a survivor of Jeffrey Epstein’s abuse, to expose not just the predator himself, but the powerful system that enabled him. As Jess tells her story of surviving the billionaire’s web of wealth, rot, and silence, the shadows of Epstein’s empire loom larger than ever. Ghislaine Maxwell has just been transferred to Fort Bryan under suspiciously tight secrecy. At the same time, Trump’s administration continues stonewalling the release of the Epstein files—burying evidence that could finally reveal who protected, funded, and joined Epstein in his crimes. In a country where the rich and powerful still shield predators, this conversation is a raw reminder of what it takes to survive, to fight, and to demand truth when the system was manipulated to cover it up.
Reps. Ro Khanna and Thomas Massie will co-host a press conference at the U.S. Capitol tomorrow, September 3rd, at 10:30 a.m. ET, joined by survivors of Jeffrey Epstein and Ghislaine Maxwell—several of whom will speak publicly for the first time—as they push for the release of Epstein-related files. This bipartisan event advances their “Epstein Files Transparency Act” and a discharge petition aimed at forcing a House vote on fully unsealing the sealed documents.
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You can support Jess Michael's SA advocacy work at https://www.jessmichaelsspeaks.com/ and on Instagram at @jessmichaelsspeaks.
Follow Rick Wilson at @TheRickWilson on X and @therickwilson.bsky.social on Bluesky, and subscribe to his Substack at therickwilson.substack.com.
This week, Rick sits down with Jess Michaels, who is a survivor of Jeffrey Epstein’s abuse, to expose not just the predator himself, but the powerful system that enabled him. As Jess tells her story of surviving the billionaire’s web of wealth, rot, and silence, the shadows of Epstein’s empire loom larger than ever. Ghislaine Maxwell has just been transferred to Fort Bryan under suspiciously tight secrecy. At the same time, Trump’s administration continues stonewalling the release of the Epstein files—burying evidence that could finally reveal who protected, funded, and joined Epstein in his crimes. In a country where the rich and powerful still shield predators, this conversation is a raw reminder of what it takes to survive, to fight, and to demand truth when the system was manipulated to cover it up.
Reps. Ro Khanna and Thomas Massie will co-host a press conference at the U.S. Capitol tomorrow, September 3rd, at 10:30 a.m. ET, joined by survivors of Jeffrey Epstein and Ghislaine Maxwell—several of whom will speak publicly for the first time—as they push for the release of Epstein-related files. This bipartisan event advances their “Epstein Files Transparency Act” and a discharge petition aimed at forcing a House vote on fully unsealing the sealed documents.
•
•
•
•
•
You can support Jess Michael's SA advocacy work at https://www.jessmichaelsspeaks.com/ and on Instagram at @jessmichaelsspeaks.
Follow Rick Wilson at @TheRickWilson on X and @therickwilson.bsky.social on Bluesky, and subscribe to his Substack at therickwilson.substack.com.
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:00):
What I know now looking back is that in nineteen
ninety one, Jeffrey Epstein had a very set strategy. He
was a psychopath then, and he was a skilled, masterful manipulator.
Speaker 2 (00:17):
Your attact will not be an eedy one.
Speaker 3 (00:20):
Your enemy is well trained, well EQUI.
Speaker 1 (00:24):
There is not a.
Speaker 2 (00:24):
Liberal America and is conservative America.
Speaker 4 (00:28):
Humited States of America.
Speaker 2 (00:34):
Hey, folks, welcome back to the Lincoln Project podcast. I
appreciate you joining us today because we have a very
special guest today. Jess Michaels is one of the many
victims of Jeffrey Epstein. And because Jeffrey Epstein has become
such a central figure in our politics in this country,
in this moment we're in, and because it has been
(00:55):
a story that has illustrated a kind of corrupt approach
to justice for the victims of people like Jeffrey Epstein,
given what the White House is doing, given what the
Justice Department has been doing, I'm really pleased to welcome
Jess Michael's here today with us to have her tell
her story, so you start to get a little more
of a picture of the kind of things that was
(01:16):
happening to very young girls at the time who were
unready and abused because they weren't playing the same game
that Jeffrey Epstein was playing, and it was a grim
and terrible game. So I want to welcome to Jess.
Thank you so much for coming on the program today.
(01:36):
I really appreciate your time, and I really appreciate you
telling your story in the last few weeks, because I
think it was easy for a long time for people
to think this was just a faceless group of anonymous
women and young girls. Tell us your story about how
you fell into Jeffrey Epstein's web.
Speaker 1 (01:54):
Yes, thank you so much for having me.
Speaker 5 (01:56):
Rick.
Speaker 1 (01:58):
I like to fine people that Jeffrey Epstein didn't just
assault children, that he also abused young women, women that
were in their early, you know, late late teens, that
eighteen to twenty three year old age range, twenty five
year age range. And we're at that stage in a
(02:19):
life where we're launching into the world. And so when
I share my story, I like to be really clear
that I was a very successful, thriving young dancer and model.
I was succeeding in my career. I had an incredible
trajectory ahead of me. I was confident, I was assertive,
(02:42):
I had wonderful relationships. I was thriving in my life,
and I came back from a contract in Tokyo where
I was dancing and modeling, and my roommate at the
time a very dear friend who I'd known for a
year and a half, the whole time that I had
been working professionally, and she was telling me about this
man that she had been working for for the last
(03:03):
few months who was training her in massage, taking her
on trips around the world where she only had to
do two or three massages in a week and then
she'd have the rest of the time to herself. And
what is really important about that aspect, she'd actually been
doing it for a while. She spoke very highly of him, right,
She did not give me any indication that there was
(03:26):
any concern in fact, but what she told me made
me jealous. It was a perfect side job for a
dancer to do, to be able to go to auditions
and leave on contracts and then come home and have
that same job back. That's a really rare thing for
performing artists in New York City. Sure, so I was jealous.
She's making all this money. And then a couple of
(03:48):
months go by and she tells me she's gotten a
dance contract and Jeffrey needs a backup messuse. What I
didn't understand at the time was I was actually being groomed.
The way I like to speak of her. I call
her the Gallaine Maxwell before there was a Gallain Maxwell.
Because this is in nineteen ninety one. It's one of
the reasons why I put nineteen ninety one in my bio,
(04:11):
because I want to be really clear and remind people
that this was going on so much longer than anyone
wants to discuss. So I actually saved on my day
planners because I'm anab a journal So I have a
nineteen ninety one day planner that has his name is
Madison Avenue address, his phone number, and the assistant's name
at the time. When I went down to that address
(04:33):
and I went into his office and it was very stoic.
He was very professional when I first met him, and
he made me feel like this was a very serious job.
He was looking for only serious candidates. He knew so
much about the body. He was asking me questions about
(04:54):
the body in a way that made me feel insecure,
but set him up as the authority that he knew
a lot, and he was going to be the trainer,
and at one point I wasn't even sure if I
was going to get the job. And he asks me
to come around the back of the desk and he
opens up a drawer that deeper file cabinet drawer, you
(05:17):
know what I'm talking about, like in a day, and
opens it up. There's about a dozen books of the
Book of Massage in there, and he hands me a
copy and I have to study this. What I know
now looking back is that in nineteen ninety one, Jeffrey
Epstein had a very set strategy. He was a psychopath then,
(05:40):
and he was a skilled, masterful manipulator, right, So, being
the overachiever that I am, he gives me this book
and I don't even know if I have the job.
And I go and I get a three subject notebook
and I study it. And my roommate gets home that
afternoon and she says, liked you, and you're going to
(06:01):
call his office and make an appointment for a trial massage.
So I'm thinking, I'm good because I know if you
hand me something to do, I'm gonna do my utmost
to excel at it. I received the address the next
week and it is to go to this penthouse, and
(06:22):
the penthouse doors open up into this foyer, and I
walk around this foyer and it is a gorgeous penthouse.
So when I saw his office, I had a hard
time believing he was a millionaire because it was such
a stark bear office. When I walked into that penthouse,
I knew this was a space I had never seen
(06:44):
anything like it before. There was a sunken living room,
there were Florida ceiling windows. It was really a beautiful place.
Jeffrey comes out in a white bathrobe and a towel,
and I, being the confident dancer that I am, my
first question is, so why do you hire professional dancers
(07:07):
when clearly you could hire professional messuses. And he says, oh, well,
dancers have such beautiful bodies. They know how to take
care of themselves. You know, they know more about the
body than the average professional does. And you wouldn't want
a fat personal trainer, would you. And then he proceeds
to do a pushing of the boundary. He takes off
(07:32):
his bathrobe. Doesn't look at me, and he says, and
dancers are comfortable with nudity. He doesn't look at me.
He doesn't ask me. He doesn't, he doesn't check in.
He just acts like this is completely normal. Sure it is.
After that, I'm not going to go into the longer details.
We only have twenty or thirty minutes here. But what
(07:52):
I will tell you is that it is a typical
pattern of manipulators and sex offenders to continually groom and
push lines until I was raped. And Rick, what I
will tell you about my advocacy, the reason I speak
out and the reason I worked so hard for seven
years in trauma therapy to talk about this is because
(08:16):
I did what is the most common trauma response. It
did the most common response. Trauma response happened to me.
I froze. I froze, and he finished, and he threw
money on the table, said hey, call my office next
(08:37):
week for another appointment. He normalized everything that had just happened.
And I was so confused and petrified. And if we
don't start talking about trauma responses as a society, people
(08:58):
are never going to understand why survivors what happens Afterwards.
I got on the subway.
Speaker 2 (09:06):
It's not the movies, folks.
Speaker 1 (09:09):
I've never seen Hollywood depict an accurate rape scenario. And
so I got on the subway going the wrong way.
I showed up for work the next day. I was
(09:31):
still mute, and my friend is asking me, Hey, how
did it go yesterday? And by the time she asked
me three times and I hadn't answered, and I just
looked at her, and she looked at me. She grabbed
my hand and brought me into an office and I
just crumbled and started crying. And I will always remember
(09:54):
this fact that I was too humiliated to tell her
everything that happened, and she still said to me, I understood,
time to go to the police. We have to go
to the police. It was only then that I recognized
what had happened. And what people also don't understand about
nineteen ninety one is at that time, what we understood
about laws were that you were considered raped based on
(10:14):
how much you resisted, and if you froze, it was
then not considered rape. And so not only did I
not think anyone was gonna believe me, I didn't even
believe myself. It was where the self blame began and
I cowered, and that really confident, vibrant, thriving young woman
(10:37):
at twenty two years old just collapsed. I lost a
sense of trust in myself. I didn't trust my body,
I didn't trust anyone around me, and I didn't trust
the world. I didn't feel safe walking around in the
world anymore. I really struggled to belie leave that I
(11:01):
wasn't stupid, that it was that it was absolutely my fault.
And it would take decades before I saw his face
again and then was able to actually get therapy and
recognize what it actually happened. But I also think it's
really important to understand that in nineteen ninety one, I
thought I was the only one. I could not believe
(11:23):
that my friend would have brought me to this place
and that he would have been doing the same thing.
So I'm going to stop so that you get a
chance to chime in. But that's what happened.
Speaker 2 (11:33):
It's riveting and it's horrifying, but I mean, it so
fits in with what we understand. The pattern continued to
be until the mid two thousands, and after join Maxwell
entered the chat of taking young girls who many of
(11:53):
whom are They may be adults, but they are not
yet mature adults. No, they have not yet had that
feriential collision with the world where you where you get
certain abilities of judgment about people and things in the
same way that you you want to have or you
will have later. And but that pattern iterated over and
(12:15):
over again. And I guess what I'm asking is as
you saw him emerge again, as you saw the stories, eventually,
you must have felt in a strange way that that
that sense that you weren't alone, and it must have
been both tragic and yet and yet it probably, I'm guessing,
(12:38):
helped you feel like you weren't the only person who
had made this, you know, it had fallen into this
horrifying trap with this guy.
Speaker 1 (12:46):
Yes, that's exactly. It was equally triggering and upsetting. To
see his face again, my my body responded before I
even knew whether it was actually him, because I couldn't
remember the name, but there was something about his face
and I saw the news Julie K. Brown's a Version
of Justice. I saw his face, and I'm looking at
(13:06):
his face and I start to shake, and I'm having
a hard time breathing, and I'm starting to sweat, and
my heart starts racing, and I wasn't even sure I
it was him, So I just went to go look
for my day planners and I found my day planner,
and then I started reading the articles and the article
and at the same time that I am so triggered,
(13:32):
I'm in my brain, I'm going, oh my god, it
was never my fault. It wasn't my fault. I wasn't
the only run And it was this equally equally lifting
of shame while I'm being triggered. It was a very bizarre.
Speaker 2 (13:47):
I can imagine it had to be an extraordinarily complex
sort of milledge of emotions at that time, because when
you learn the scope of what Epstein had done, yeah,
from at least now we have you, You're you're one
of the alpha cases here that we know of, at
least as far back as nineteen ninety one, probably earlier, definitely, Yeah,
(14:09):
through the mid two thousands and and and you know,
as I've told a million people, if you think Jeffrey
Epstein stopped doing what he was doing while he was
on house arrest after the state case in Florida, I
have a bridge to sell you. Yeah, these these these
kind of sexual predators and abusers always continue their behavior
(14:30):
until they are stopped. Yeah, And you know it is
it is something that that I think, you know, you
and other victims who are now coming forward are really
in an unusual position because a lot of a lot
of sexual assault survivors they want to be done, They
want to work it through maybe and and and not
(14:53):
talk about it and not keep bringing it up and
not have it in their face for the rest of
their life. But I really think it's you and the
other survivors of this are telling the stories of Epstein
because he has become something that is very central to
what's going on in our country about how do we
treat the law, how we treat the victims of abuse.
Speaker 6 (15:15):
Let me start by asking you, I mean, this nightmare
has followed you for a very very long time, I
mean decades, and I'm sure that Jeffrey Epstein's a re emergence.
I mean all over the news has been incredibly painful.
How are you, How are you doing? How are you
digesting all of this?
Speaker 5 (15:34):
Thank you for asking that. That's very thoughtful because a
lot of people aren't aware of every time his picture
is on one of their podcasts or you know, and
I've asked several people, can you please not just flash
his picture everywhere or Maxwell's and not glamorized them. But
thank you for asking that, because a lot of people
aren't aware that that really traumatizes victims every time we
(15:55):
have to see his face. And it's a case that
has just never gone away. It just it just won't
go away. And I need your audience to understand that.
You know, I reported this almost three decades ago. So
a lot of people will say, oh, why she just
coming forward now, and they think it's political, and it's not.
It's something I've been working on pretty much. I dedicated
(16:16):
all of my youth to this, and so I'm doing
it not just for me, but for the victims who
are now deceased and the victims that are very much
all live, and I want to get justice for all
of them. I feel that for my little sister to
have gone through what she went through and to have
had to testify against Maxwell and then have to suffer,
and there are others that I love very much who
(16:38):
are suffering this right now about Maxwell. It's completely unacceptable.
Why would Maxwell be given a voice when she is
a convicted pedophile. I just it's been very difficult, and
I appreciate you the question. I appreciate you asking.
Speaker 6 (16:52):
Of course, and I think we're all grateful for you
having the courage to be here and tell your story
and be out there.
Speaker 2 (16:58):
And because the President of the United States was a
close friend of Jeffrey Epstein, we now have his Stage
two facilitator, Gilleen Maxwell being transferred from a medium security
prison to a club fed.
Speaker 7 (17:24):
Child sex trafficker. Jeffrey Epstein's co conspirator, Galaine Maxwell was
transferred to a minimum security prison in Texas. The move
triggered speculation that she's getting special treatment for answering Department
of Justice questions about the Epstein case in which she
was convicted. Fox ors Casey Stegel in studio with more Casey.
Speaker 8 (17:44):
Claric's Good Evening. The Federal Bureau of Prisons in fact,
offered no explanation behind Glaine Maxwell's transfer from a Florida
prison to a less secure prison camp here in Texas.
Legal analysts have their own theories as calls grow the
Department of Justice to release all of the files relating
to the Jeffrey Epstein case. The FPC or Federal Prison
(18:09):
Camp in Brian, about twenty minutes from Texas A and M,
is the new home for Jeffrey Epstein's former girlfriend and
associate Gillane Maxwell. It's a minimum security women's prison where
other high profile inmates are housed like Fahrerono's founder Elizabeth
Holmes and former Real Housewife reality star Jennifer Shaw. Not
(18:30):
a place typically reserved for someone convicted of sex related
crimes like Maxwell was in June of twenty twenty two.
Speaker 9 (18:38):
It's highly unusual and highly unconventional.
Speaker 8 (18:41):
Jeremy Rosenthal is a criminal defense lawyer. Though not directly
involved in the Epstein or Maxwell case, he believes the
transfers timing is no coincidence.
Speaker 9 (18:51):
Based on the amount of time that she spent with
the attorneys doing the interview. I think clearly there's a
lot of information being divulged us.
Speaker 8 (19:00):
Last week, Maxwell was questioned in Florida by the DOJ
regarding her involvement in helping Jeffrey Epstein procure underage girls
to abuse.
Speaker 9 (19:10):
At the top level, she's clearly angling for some type
of a pardon, which is a political question one that
the president. You would think that that would be a
radioactive choice, at least at the moment.
Speaker 8 (19:21):
Questions have been raised over President Trump's former relationship with
the disgraced financier. The president recently told the press. Epstein
was kicked out of mar A Lago years ago for quote,
stealing young women who worked in the SPA. We took
people that work for me, and I told them, don't
do it anymore, and he did it, said I. I said,
(19:42):
stay there.
Speaker 10 (19:42):
Out of here.
Speaker 8 (19:43):
The Justice Department last month said it would not release
any further documents related to the Epstein case. Democrats hope
to circumvent that through a law from the nineteen twenties
known as the Rule of Five, which requires government agencies
to hand over information if any five lawmakers on a
House or Senate committee requested.
Speaker 3 (20:03):
We're invoking federal law and using our authority as a
check on the executive to compel transparency.
Speaker 8 (20:10):
Relatives of Epstein victims. Meantime say Maxwell is being shown leniency.
In a statement to Fox News, the family of Virginia Jeffrey,
who died by suicide earlier this year, says, quote, the
American public should be enraged by the preferential treatment being
given to a pedophile and a criminally charged child sex offender.
(20:31):
A senior Administration official calls the allegation absurd. Meantime, Maxwell's
attorneys have asked the US Supreme Court to hear an
appeal on their client's twenty twenty one conviction. Today, the
chair of the House Oversight Committee delayed a congressional deposition
of Maxwell until after the High Court weighs in.
Speaker 2 (20:53):
We now have all the signs she's about to get
pardoned and set free. And I know Maxwell was not
the person who engineered your situation, But how do you
feel about about watching how do you think the other
victims feel about watching this Maxwell story play out? Where
it's such an obvious trade off. Don't say anything about
(21:13):
Trump and you can go free, even though you're a
sexual predator and a monster.
Speaker 1 (21:18):
I want to say something before I even answer that question.
None of the young women and girls that encountered Gallayne
Maxwell or Jeffrey Epstein had a chance. They just they
they were no match. I was no match for him
in nineteen ninety one. He was already masterful, already masterful then.
(21:42):
So none of these young women. I just I have
to say that because I hear all the victim blaming
of well, why did they go back? A lot of
times in abuse situations, people think someone is choosing between
safe and unsafe, and that's not what was happening. They
had really fine tuned it down to finding girls where
(22:03):
their level of unsafe was just a little bit better
than the unsafe they were living in. And and and
that's important for people to understand, uh that that the
the amount of coercion and manipulation involved, Right. I just
have to say that as an advocate, as an advocate
(22:24):
it as far as the injustice goes, it is it
is unfathomable to me that this administration is listening to
a convicted pedophile. I actually just listened to some commentators say, yeah,
she's just a scapegoat. Uh, she's she's she's she's not
(22:45):
really guilty. And I and and where we are, where
we the the line we are going to is like
we're not even listening to victims anymore. And victims are
you know, the victims are saying not only are we
willing to speak up now and on September third, but
they're saying, release the files. You can redact our names,
but release the files. I haven't talked to anyone that
(23:08):
has said, no, I don't want those files released.
Speaker 2 (23:13):
Yeah, I mean that strikes me as something that that
they're there. The the initial claim that Bondi made about
not releasing the ebscene materials was there's a lot of
child sexual abuse material in these files. We can't release them,
we can't show it. No one cares about redacting those things,
and they should be redacted if they're videos or whatever,
absolutely redact them, edit them, you know, blur them out,
(23:36):
whatever the case. But I think that it really is
a fundamental and it astounds me that Pam Bondi, you know,
has been so corrupt in this on one level.
Speaker 1 (23:48):
So disappointing.
Speaker 10 (24:00):
In February, I did an interview on Fox and it's
been getting a lot of attention because I said, I
was asking a question about the client list, and my
response was it's sitting on my desk to be reviewed,
meaning the file along with the JFK MLK files as well.
(24:21):
That's what I meant by that. Also to the tens
of thousands of video they turned out to be child
porn downloaded by that disgusting Jeffrey Epstein. Child porn is
what they were never going to be released, never going
to see the lighted day to him being an agent.
I have no knowledge about that. We can get back
to you on that. And the minute missing from the video.
(24:43):
We released the video showing definitively the video was not conclusive,
but the evidence prior to it was showing he committed suicide.
Speaker 1 (24:57):
And what was on that there was a.
Speaker 10 (24:58):
Minute that was off the counter. And what we learned
from Eurou of Prisons was every year, every night they
redo that video as old from like nineteen ninety nine.
So every night the video is reset and every night
should have the same minute missing. So we're looking for
that video to release that as well as showing that.
Speaker 1 (25:17):
A minute is missing every night.
Speaker 2 (25:18):
And that's it, honestly, because when she was Attorney General
of Florida, she made a great show about being an
advocate for victims of sexual abuse and sexual assault. There
were there were she was one of her big pillar
items as attorney general, and now she is enabling this
pardon to go forward. She clearly was the person who
(25:40):
who ordered the ten or the thousand FBI agents to
go through the hundreds of thousands of pages of material
and and redact Trump's name from them. I mean, so
I really do think it's like this is like they're
being they're being victimized a second time by this process.
Speaker 1 (25:57):
In my view, I think I think the hard thing
is to and you know, I was not a victim
of Gallaine Maxwell. I didn't go through what many of
these survivors are going through. But I can't imagine how
they're feeling because for me seeing his face over and
over and over in the media, knowing that there are
(26:19):
hundreds of thousands of pieces of evidence, one hundreds of
thousand files and pieces of evidence, and we can't get
an investigation or a prosecution with that. How is that?
How is that setting a precedent, a very scary precedent
in our country around what is going to be considered prosecutable,
(26:42):
and in this particular crime, a sexual assault, it is
already so hard to even get a case into a courtroom,
and then two and a half percent of that ten
percent actually gets convicted, and so we actually get one,
We actually have one we ugly Maxwell in prison and
she gets moved to a country club and she's doing
(27:05):
yoga and pilates. When I know survivors Epstein and Maxwell
survivors right now are struggling to even make it through
a night of sleep while she's taking yoga and pilates.
Speaker 9 (27:25):
It would unwinden everything that my sister and all the
survivors fought court.
Speaker 8 (27:36):
It would be a disgrace of justice. It would be
picking abusers over survivors.
Speaker 1 (27:44):
Again, that was.
Speaker 11 (27:46):
Sky Roberts, the brother of Virginia Giuffree, a very prominent
accuser of Jeffrey Epstein. You just watched it, you just
heard it. You can hear the pain the victims, their families,
they are still enduring from Epstein's crimes.
Speaker 2 (28:08):
Yeah, And that to me is one of the biggest
outrages of this is that is that I just don't
want to hear this administration say that they're tough on
crime and they're freeing a child trafficker and exactly sex
trafficker when they when they're giving her privileges, She's the
only she's the only sexual predator in a minimum security
(28:32):
federal prison, the only one. And I just find that,
I think I find it such a deeply sort of
disturbing and horrible indicator of how corrupt this this situation is.
So you mentioned the survivors are going to come together
on September third, talk to us a little bit about
that event.
Speaker 1 (28:52):
So as I understand it, there is a there's there's
going to be a press conference with two representatives, a
Democrat and Republican that are coming together for this transparency
Act with survivors who have never spoken up before.
Speaker 12 (29:09):
What is most insulting is our dismissal of the victims.
It was offensive. Thomas Massey and I are having ten
of the victims on September third at the Capitol to
tell their story. We need to center the victims. That
is going to be an explosive press conference and it's
going to show how abused these women were and how
(29:31):
reprehensible it is. Then Maxwell is dismissing.
Speaker 1 (29:34):
That we are hoping to unite in a show of
force that has never been done before by survivors of
this horrific man. There's no reason why this case should
have been closed with the volume of evidence. And we
(29:56):
don't care who it is. We don't care if it's
a democratic poken, I don't care. If it's independent expressive,
we don't. We don't care. But victims have done everything right.
The government and the FBI and and even the Southern
District of Florida have have have destroyed protocols, hop skipped
(30:21):
and jumped over protocols, either by negligence, because of no negligence,
or just out of incompetence. And so there has been
very little accountability or justice, and it's it's very disturbing.
Speaker 2 (30:35):
I think you made a couple of points in there
that I think are really important. One is, and I'm
I speak for myself, but I speak for I think
almost everyone who believes in this, whether they're Republican or
I don't care who is in the files.
Speaker 5 (30:47):
Yep.
Speaker 2 (30:48):
If it's Bill Clinton, Okay, if it's Alan Derswooz Okay,
I don't care, does not matter. I think that one
of the the the inequities here that is so fundamental
is this idea that powerful people are in these materials,
significant people of consequence in the financial industry or in politics,
(31:10):
and that we would hide them because they are those people.
That is a perversion of justice that is absolutely out
of control.
Speaker 10 (31:17):
Yes.
Speaker 1 (31:19):
Yes, and we're looking at a second sweetheart deal here
for Glene Maxwell.
Speaker 5 (31:24):
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (31:25):
It's very Yeah that the two prosecutions of these people
have been deminimous in their actual impact on their lives.
Speaker 10 (31:33):
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (31:33):
And I have to say, when Pam Bondi came out
with those binders in February, I had the tiny sliver
of hope that there would be something revealed, something would
come right the tiniest liver I mean tiny.
Speaker 13 (31:53):
Attorney General Bondi says this is just phase one. She's
promising to open the government files on Jeffrey Epstein. Despite
the hype, most of what she released so far had
been made public years ago.
Speaker 3 (32:06):
Overnight, the Justice Department releasing material about the late sex
offender Jeffrey Epstein, including a three page evidence list cataloging
what investigators obtained while searching his New York mansion and
private Caribbean island. Among the items listed a photo album
of girl and Epstein, a bag containing one set of
copper handcuffs and whip, along with dozens of computers, hard drives,
(32:27):
and recording devices, and a folder containing LSJ logbook, a
reference to Epstein's island, Little Saint James. Attorney General Pam
Bondi went on TV to trumpet the release of this material,
teasing a big reveal.
Speaker 14 (32:40):
What you're going to see, hopefully tomorrow, is a lot
of flight logs, a lot of names, a lot of information,
but pretty sick what that man did.
Speaker 3 (32:53):
But much of the material had been circulating in the
public domain for years, including pilot logs from Epstein's plane
and is so called Black Book of Names and addresses.
Several conservative media figures were given early access during a
visit to the White House, showing off binders and posing
for pictures, some later posting how underwhelmed they were. Epstein
died by suicide in jail before he could be tried
(33:15):
on sex trafficking charges. His former paramore, Gelen Maxwell, was
convicted and is now considering an appeal to the US
Supreme Court. Attorney General Bondi is promising to release more
documents after a review to protect the identities of victims.
Speaker 2 (33:41):
Yeah, as I like to say to people when it
comes to this administration, reduce your expectations to.
Speaker 1 (33:45):
Zero but tiny. But what I never expected was for
the case to be completely closed and the files to
be sealed. No one could have expected that that would happen.
And that is agree just, and that is an injustice
to serve not just the Epstein and Maxwell survivors, but
to every survivor that has ever been silenced, every single survivor.
(34:09):
I will tell you in my comments and in my
DMS and in my emails our sexual assault survivors relation
to Epstein survivors and saying we are with you. We
can see what's happening here and this has happened to us.
Speaker 2 (34:23):
Yeah, it is that you know that the the type
of people who become those that kind of character, the
gas lighting, the manipulation is at a scale on a
level that ordinary people never encounter, and thank god they
never encounter it, because it's horrific. But I think that
that you know, what's what's deserved here is openness and
(34:46):
candor and transparency and accountability exactly and it and the
sick irony is we're not gonna We're not going to
get that unless survivors like you and the other survivors
are out there front and center. And so I really
salute you for doing this, and I really think it's
enormously courageous and meritorious that you're doing this. I want
(35:06):
to ask you one more question you have you have
become an advocate for sexual assault. Talk to us about
a little bit about your work in that space.
Speaker 1 (35:15):
Thank you so much for asking. So there's there's a
reason why I became an advocate when I started to
recognize what how my life had been completely derailed by
living with post traumatic stress disorder after the assault, and
how it had detrimentally affected my physical health, my emotional health,
(35:35):
my relationships, my career tanked and and I really felt
like there was this gap in care for survivors, and
it was based on societal stigma and shame that that
lack of understanding about what we freeze. That that is
actually a really common response. It's it happens a lot
(35:57):
to women, and it happens. Actually, you know, I have
I've had combat better and say, you know, yes, ma'am,
we freeze too, so do police officers. It happens, but
for some reason it's it's ignored and sexual assault survivors
and it's considered not not prosecutable. So what I'm recognizing
is that people around us need to treat us like
(36:18):
we have an injury. And so I've created something called
like sexual Assault First Aide. It's where people just understand,
they know what to do when someone says me too,
and everyone, and it's in the form of an app.
It's called with You Too. It's a social safety app
and it just helps us take care of each other
(36:39):
better daily and then in the event of a crisis.
Speaker 2 (36:43):
That's fascinating though, because it's like it's like, you know,
most people forget how to perform CPR and a lot
of them get an APP and say do these compressions.
So this is the same kind of approach.
Speaker 1 (36:52):
It's the same thing. It's the same thing. And because
if I told you Rick last night, I was raped,
for your first responses, oh, we got to go to
the police, because everybody treats it as a crime. And
what we are trying to show in this app, and
it's very trauma informed app is like sexual harm is
an injury first before it's an interrogation. And so there
is a step that needs to happen before we just
(37:15):
shove people victims off to strangers. We need to surround
them in safety, trust and support, calm their nervous system down,
make them feel safe, and then help them along the
way to look at all of their options of what
to do next. The problem is is that a survivor
is often navigating all of that alone traumatized.
Speaker 10 (37:36):
Wow.
Speaker 2 (37:36):
That is that is I think that is a really,
really wise and smart way to help the friends of
these people, And unfortunately it is an extraordinarily common it.
Speaker 1 (37:47):
Is and people don't say the right thing, not because
they're terrible people, it's because we have never we don't
talk about this issue. It's one of the reasons why
I worked so hard to develop my language around it
and to be able to speak what happened, because I
think that's also why we've been on this hamster wheel
of nothing happening, is that trauma survivors have been so
(38:09):
stuck in trauma and that area of the brain that
is affected by speech is affected by sexual harm, and
we can't get to our words. That's why I'm so
honored whenever I'm asked to speak, because I've worked really
hard to get here, to find those words and explain
what happened so that we can try to prevent people
from being left alone again.
Speaker 2 (38:32):
Well, just Michaels, I want to thank you so much
for coming on the Lincoln Project podcast today. I am
deeply moved by what you've what you've how you've articulated
your story, and by what you've done since then to
convert some of that pain and hurt and injury into
publicly facing advocacy that will hopefully help folks survive this.
And I and I want to you know, thank you
(38:54):
and the other folks who are going to be there
on the third to speak out about this because I
think it's something that that there's a massive political power
system in this country trying to suppress this story. Yeah,
and to suppress this the victims of this story. And
I'm really I'm really proud of you guys for taking that.
And I know it's a huge step to be out
(39:16):
there in public, in front of the cameras with the
with the Trump hate machine ready to turn itself on.
And and I just want to say this personally, if
you guys need somebody to tell you how to fight
back on that front when they when these bastards start
coming after you and they will, you call me, Thank you, Rick,
(39:37):
because I'll show up with it. I'll show up with
a tire iron.
Speaker 1 (39:40):
I'm counting on it.
Speaker 2 (39:42):
You got it, Okay, folks, thank you so much for
listening as always to the Lincoln Project podcast. I'm your host,
Rick Wilson. You can catch me on the Enemy's List podcast,
the Elephant in the Room podcast streaming three times a week,
the Strategy Session on Tuesday nights, that breakdown on Thursday nights,
and Behind the Numbers at the Wilson's on Fridays, where
we break down the national polling situation and we talk
(40:05):
about where the where the where the where the numbers
are and the politics landscape is in the country. Can
also join us on my substack at the Rig Wilson
and on the Lincoln Square substack. We appreciate all of
your support. We will continue this fight as long as
you guys help us stay in it. We'll talk to
you again soon. Thanks so much, everybody.
Speaker 4 (40:25):
The Lincoln Project Podcast is a Lincoln Project production executive
produced by Whitney Hayes, Then Howe and Joey Wartner Cheney,
edited by Riley Maine. Hey, folks, if you want to
support The Lincoln Project's work against Donald Trump, Elon Musk,
and this MAGA craziness, go to action dot Lincoln Project
dot us slash help LP. If you'd like to get
in touch, or have suggestions for a guest or a
(40:46):
show topic, or just want to say hi, our email
is podcast at Lincoln Project dot us for our MAGA friends.
Please no more news. Thanks so much, and we'll talk
to you again next time.
Speaker 11 (40:57):
I'm good Luck.
What I know now looking back is that in nineteen
ninety one, Jeffrey Epstein had a very set strategy. He
was a psychopath then, and he was a skilled, masterful manipulator.
Speaker 2 (00:17):
Your attact will not be an eedy one.
Speaker 3 (00:20):
Your enemy is well trained, well EQUI.
Speaker 1 (00:24):
There is not a.
Speaker 2 (00:24):
Liberal America and is conservative America.
Speaker 4 (00:28):
Humited States of America.
Speaker 2 (00:34):
Hey, folks, welcome back to the Lincoln Project podcast. I
appreciate you joining us today because we have a very
special guest today. Jess Michaels is one of the many
victims of Jeffrey Epstein. And because Jeffrey Epstein has become
such a central figure in our politics in this country,
in this moment we're in, and because it has been
(00:55):
a story that has illustrated a kind of corrupt approach
to justice for the victims of people like Jeffrey Epstein,
given what the White House is doing, given what the
Justice Department has been doing, I'm really pleased to welcome
Jess Michael's here today with us to have her tell
her story, so you start to get a little more
of a picture of the kind of things that was
(01:16):
happening to very young girls at the time who were
unready and abused because they weren't playing the same game
that Jeffrey Epstein was playing, and it was a grim
and terrible game. So I want to welcome to Jess.
Thank you so much for coming on the program today.
(01:36):
I really appreciate your time, and I really appreciate you
telling your story in the last few weeks, because I
think it was easy for a long time for people
to think this was just a faceless group of anonymous
women and young girls. Tell us your story about how
you fell into Jeffrey Epstein's web.
Speaker 1 (01:54):
Yes, thank you so much for having me.
Speaker 5 (01:56):
Rick.
Speaker 1 (01:58):
I like to fine people that Jeffrey Epstein didn't just
assault children, that he also abused young women, women that
were in their early, you know, late late teens, that
eighteen to twenty three year old age range, twenty five
year age range. And we're at that stage in a
(02:19):
life where we're launching into the world. And so when
I share my story, I like to be really clear
that I was a very successful, thriving young dancer and model.
I was succeeding in my career. I had an incredible
trajectory ahead of me. I was confident, I was assertive,
(02:42):
I had wonderful relationships. I was thriving in my life,
and I came back from a contract in Tokyo where
I was dancing and modeling, and my roommate at the
time a very dear friend who I'd known for a
year and a half, the whole time that I had
been working professionally, and she was telling me about this
man that she had been working for for the last
(03:03):
few months who was training her in massage, taking her
on trips around the world where she only had to
do two or three massages in a week and then
she'd have the rest of the time to herself. And
what is really important about that aspect, she'd actually been
doing it for a while. She spoke very highly of him, right,
She did not give me any indication that there was
(03:26):
any concern in fact, but what she told me made
me jealous. It was a perfect side job for a
dancer to do, to be able to go to auditions
and leave on contracts and then come home and have
that same job back. That's a really rare thing for
performing artists in New York City. Sure, so I was jealous.
She's making all this money. And then a couple of
(03:48):
months go by and she tells me she's gotten a
dance contract and Jeffrey needs a backup messuse. What I
didn't understand at the time was I was actually being groomed.
The way I like to speak of her. I call
her the Gallaine Maxwell before there was a Gallain Maxwell.
Because this is in nineteen ninety one. It's one of
the reasons why I put nineteen ninety one in my bio,
(04:11):
because I want to be really clear and remind people
that this was going on so much longer than anyone
wants to discuss. So I actually saved on my day
planners because I'm anab a journal So I have a
nineteen ninety one day planner that has his name is
Madison Avenue address, his phone number, and the assistant's name
at the time. When I went down to that address
(04:33):
and I went into his office and it was very stoic.
He was very professional when I first met him, and
he made me feel like this was a very serious job.
He was looking for only serious candidates. He knew so
much about the body. He was asking me questions about
(04:54):
the body in a way that made me feel insecure,
but set him up as the authority that he knew
a lot, and he was going to be the trainer,
and at one point I wasn't even sure if I
was going to get the job. And he asks me
to come around the back of the desk and he
opens up a drawer that deeper file cabinet drawer, you
(05:17):
know what I'm talking about, like in a day, and
opens it up. There's about a dozen books of the
Book of Massage in there, and he hands me a
copy and I have to study this. What I know
now looking back is that in nineteen ninety one, Jeffrey
Epstein had a very set strategy. He was a psychopath then,
(05:40):
and he was a skilled, masterful manipulator, right, So, being
the overachiever that I am, he gives me this book
and I don't even know if I have the job.
And I go and I get a three subject notebook
and I study it. And my roommate gets home that
afternoon and she says, liked you, and you're going to
(06:01):
call his office and make an appointment for a trial massage.
So I'm thinking, I'm good because I know if you
hand me something to do, I'm gonna do my utmost
to excel at it. I received the address the next
week and it is to go to this penthouse, and
(06:22):
the penthouse doors open up into this foyer, and I
walk around this foyer and it is a gorgeous penthouse.
So when I saw his office, I had a hard
time believing he was a millionaire because it was such
a stark bear office. When I walked into that penthouse,
I knew this was a space I had never seen
(06:44):
anything like it before. There was a sunken living room,
there were Florida ceiling windows. It was really a beautiful place.
Jeffrey comes out in a white bathrobe and a towel,
and I, being the confident dancer that I am, my
first question is, so why do you hire professional dancers
(07:07):
when clearly you could hire professional messuses. And he says, oh, well,
dancers have such beautiful bodies. They know how to take
care of themselves. You know, they know more about the
body than the average professional does. And you wouldn't want
a fat personal trainer, would you. And then he proceeds
to do a pushing of the boundary. He takes off
(07:32):
his bathrobe. Doesn't look at me, and he says, and
dancers are comfortable with nudity. He doesn't look at me.
He doesn't ask me. He doesn't, he doesn't check in.
He just acts like this is completely normal. Sure it is.
After that, I'm not going to go into the longer details.
We only have twenty or thirty minutes here. But what
(07:52):
I will tell you is that it is a typical
pattern of manipulators and sex offenders to continually groom and
push lines until I was raped. And Rick, what I
will tell you about my advocacy, the reason I speak
out and the reason I worked so hard for seven
years in trauma therapy to talk about this is because
(08:16):
I did what is the most common trauma response. It
did the most common response. Trauma response happened to me.
I froze. I froze, and he finished, and he threw
money on the table, said hey, call my office next
(08:37):
week for another appointment. He normalized everything that had just happened.
And I was so confused and petrified. And if we
don't start talking about trauma responses as a society, people
(08:58):
are never going to understand why survivors what happens Afterwards.
I got on the subway.
Speaker 2 (09:06):
It's not the movies, folks.
Speaker 1 (09:09):
I've never seen Hollywood depict an accurate rape scenario. And
so I got on the subway going the wrong way.
I showed up for work the next day. I was
(09:31):
still mute, and my friend is asking me, Hey, how
did it go yesterday? And by the time she asked
me three times and I hadn't answered, and I just
looked at her, and she looked at me. She grabbed
my hand and brought me into an office and I
just crumbled and started crying. And I will always remember
(09:54):
this fact that I was too humiliated to tell her
everything that happened, and she still said to me, I understood,
time to go to the police. We have to go
to the police. It was only then that I recognized
what had happened. And what people also don't understand about
nineteen ninety one is at that time, what we understood
about laws were that you were considered raped based on
(10:14):
how much you resisted, and if you froze, it was
then not considered rape. And so not only did I
not think anyone was gonna believe me, I didn't even
believe myself. It was where the self blame began and
I cowered, and that really confident, vibrant, thriving young woman
(10:37):
at twenty two years old just collapsed. I lost a
sense of trust in myself. I didn't trust my body,
I didn't trust anyone around me, and I didn't trust
the world. I didn't feel safe walking around in the
world anymore. I really struggled to belie leave that I
(11:01):
wasn't stupid, that it was that it was absolutely my fault.
And it would take decades before I saw his face
again and then was able to actually get therapy and
recognize what it actually happened. But I also think it's
really important to understand that in nineteen ninety one, I
thought I was the only one. I could not believe
(11:23):
that my friend would have brought me to this place
and that he would have been doing the same thing.
So I'm going to stop so that you get a
chance to chime in. But that's what happened.
Speaker 2 (11:33):
It's riveting and it's horrifying, but I mean, it so
fits in with what we understand. The pattern continued to
be until the mid two thousands, and after join Maxwell
entered the chat of taking young girls who many of
(11:53):
whom are They may be adults, but they are not
yet mature adults. No, they have not yet had that
feriential collision with the world where you where you get
certain abilities of judgment about people and things in the
same way that you you want to have or you
will have later. And but that pattern iterated over and
(12:15):
over again. And I guess what I'm asking is as
you saw him emerge again, as you saw the stories, eventually,
you must have felt in a strange way that that
that sense that you weren't alone, and it must have
been both tragic and yet and yet it probably, I'm guessing,
(12:38):
helped you feel like you weren't the only person who
had made this, you know, it had fallen into this
horrifying trap with this guy.
Speaker 1 (12:46):
Yes, that's exactly. It was equally triggering and upsetting. To
see his face again, my my body responded before I
even knew whether it was actually him, because I couldn't
remember the name, but there was something about his face
and I saw the news Julie K. Brown's a Version
of Justice. I saw his face, and I'm looking at
(13:06):
his face and I start to shake, and I'm having
a hard time breathing, and I'm starting to sweat, and
my heart starts racing, and I wasn't even sure I
it was him, So I just went to go look
for my day planners and I found my day planner,
and then I started reading the articles and the article
and at the same time that I am so triggered,
(13:32):
I'm in my brain, I'm going, oh my god, it
was never my fault. It wasn't my fault. I wasn't
the only run And it was this equally equally lifting
of shame while I'm being triggered. It was a very bizarre.
Speaker 2 (13:47):
I can imagine it had to be an extraordinarily complex
sort of milledge of emotions at that time, because when
you learn the scope of what Epstein had done, yeah,
from at least now we have you, You're you're one
of the alpha cases here that we know of, at
least as far back as nineteen ninety one, probably earlier, definitely, Yeah,
(14:09):
through the mid two thousands and and and you know,
as I've told a million people, if you think Jeffrey
Epstein stopped doing what he was doing while he was
on house arrest after the state case in Florida, I
have a bridge to sell you. Yeah, these these these
kind of sexual predators and abusers always continue their behavior
(14:30):
until they are stopped. Yeah, And you know it is
it is something that that I think, you know, you
and other victims who are now coming forward are really
in an unusual position because a lot of a lot
of sexual assault survivors they want to be done, They
want to work it through maybe and and and not
(14:53):
talk about it and not keep bringing it up and
not have it in their face for the rest of
their life. But I really think it's you and the
other survivors of this are telling the stories of Epstein
because he has become something that is very central to
what's going on in our country about how do we
treat the law, how we treat the victims of abuse.
Speaker 6 (15:15):
Let me start by asking you, I mean, this nightmare
has followed you for a very very long time, I
mean decades, and I'm sure that Jeffrey Epstein's a re emergence.
I mean all over the news has been incredibly painful.
How are you, How are you doing? How are you
digesting all of this?
Speaker 5 (15:34):
Thank you for asking that. That's very thoughtful because a
lot of people aren't aware of every time his picture
is on one of their podcasts or you know, and
I've asked several people, can you please not just flash
his picture everywhere or Maxwell's and not glamorized them. But
thank you for asking that, because a lot of people
aren't aware that that really traumatizes victims every time we
(15:55):
have to see his face. And it's a case that
has just never gone away. It just it just won't
go away. And I need your audience to understand that.
You know, I reported this almost three decades ago. So
a lot of people will say, oh, why she just
coming forward now, and they think it's political, and it's not.
It's something I've been working on pretty much. I dedicated
(16:16):
all of my youth to this, and so I'm doing
it not just for me, but for the victims who
are now deceased and the victims that are very much
all live, and I want to get justice for all
of them. I feel that for my little sister to
have gone through what she went through and to have
had to testify against Maxwell and then have to suffer,
and there are others that I love very much who
(16:38):
are suffering this right now about Maxwell. It's completely unacceptable.
Why would Maxwell be given a voice when she is
a convicted pedophile. I just it's been very difficult, and
I appreciate you the question. I appreciate you asking.
Speaker 6 (16:52):
Of course, and I think we're all grateful for you
having the courage to be here and tell your story
and be out there.
Speaker 2 (16:58):
And because the President of the United States was a
close friend of Jeffrey Epstein, we now have his Stage
two facilitator, Gilleen Maxwell being transferred from a medium security
prison to a club fed.
Speaker 7 (17:24):
Child sex trafficker. Jeffrey Epstein's co conspirator, Galaine Maxwell was
transferred to a minimum security prison in Texas. The move
triggered speculation that she's getting special treatment for answering Department
of Justice questions about the Epstein case in which she
was convicted. Fox ors Casey Stegel in studio with more Casey.
Speaker 8 (17:44):
Claric's Good Evening. The Federal Bureau of Prisons in fact,
offered no explanation behind Glaine Maxwell's transfer from a Florida
prison to a less secure prison camp here in Texas.
Legal analysts have their own theories as calls grow the
Department of Justice to release all of the files relating
to the Jeffrey Epstein case. The FPC or Federal Prison
(18:09):
Camp in Brian, about twenty minutes from Texas A and M,
is the new home for Jeffrey Epstein's former girlfriend and
associate Gillane Maxwell. It's a minimum security women's prison where
other high profile inmates are housed like Fahrerono's founder Elizabeth
Holmes and former Real Housewife reality star Jennifer Shaw. Not
(18:30):
a place typically reserved for someone convicted of sex related
crimes like Maxwell was in June of twenty twenty two.
Speaker 9 (18:38):
It's highly unusual and highly unconventional.
Speaker 8 (18:41):
Jeremy Rosenthal is a criminal defense lawyer. Though not directly
involved in the Epstein or Maxwell case, he believes the
transfers timing is no coincidence.
Speaker 9 (18:51):
Based on the amount of time that she spent with
the attorneys doing the interview. I think clearly there's a
lot of information being divulged us.
Speaker 8 (19:00):
Last week, Maxwell was questioned in Florida by the DOJ
regarding her involvement in helping Jeffrey Epstein procure underage girls
to abuse.
Speaker 9 (19:10):
At the top level, she's clearly angling for some type
of a pardon, which is a political question one that
the president. You would think that that would be a
radioactive choice, at least at the moment.
Speaker 8 (19:21):
Questions have been raised over President Trump's former relationship with
the disgraced financier. The president recently told the press. Epstein
was kicked out of mar A Lago years ago for quote,
stealing young women who worked in the SPA. We took
people that work for me, and I told them, don't
do it anymore, and he did it, said I. I said,
(19:42):
stay there.
Speaker 10 (19:42):
Out of here.
Speaker 8 (19:43):
The Justice Department last month said it would not release
any further documents related to the Epstein case. Democrats hope
to circumvent that through a law from the nineteen twenties
known as the Rule of Five, which requires government agencies
to hand over information if any five lawmakers on a
House or Senate committee requested.
Speaker 3 (20:03):
We're invoking federal law and using our authority as a
check on the executive to compel transparency.
Speaker 8 (20:10):
Relatives of Epstein victims. Meantime say Maxwell is being shown leniency.
In a statement to Fox News, the family of Virginia Jeffrey,
who died by suicide earlier this year, says, quote, the
American public should be enraged by the preferential treatment being
given to a pedophile and a criminally charged child sex offender.
(20:31):
A senior Administration official calls the allegation absurd. Meantime, Maxwell's
attorneys have asked the US Supreme Court to hear an
appeal on their client's twenty twenty one conviction. Today, the
chair of the House Oversight Committee delayed a congressional deposition
of Maxwell until after the High Court weighs in.
Speaker 2 (20:53):
We now have all the signs she's about to get
pardoned and set free. And I know Maxwell was not
the person who engineered your situation, But how do you
feel about about watching how do you think the other
victims feel about watching this Maxwell story play out? Where
it's such an obvious trade off. Don't say anything about
(21:13):
Trump and you can go free, even though you're a
sexual predator and a monster.
Speaker 1 (21:18):
I want to say something before I even answer that question.
None of the young women and girls that encountered Gallayne
Maxwell or Jeffrey Epstein had a chance. They just they
they were no match. I was no match for him
in nineteen ninety one. He was already masterful, already masterful then.
(21:42):
So none of these young women. I just I have
to say that because I hear all the victim blaming
of well, why did they go back? A lot of
times in abuse situations, people think someone is choosing between
safe and unsafe, and that's not what was happening. They
had really fine tuned it down to finding girls where
(22:03):
their level of unsafe was just a little bit better
than the unsafe they were living in. And and and
that's important for people to understand, uh that that the
the amount of coercion and manipulation involved, Right. I just
have to say that as an advocate, as an advocate
(22:24):
it as far as the injustice goes, it is it
is unfathomable to me that this administration is listening to
a convicted pedophile. I actually just listened to some commentators say, yeah,
she's just a scapegoat. Uh, she's she's she's she's not
(22:45):
really guilty. And I and and where we are, where
we the the line we are going to is like
we're not even listening to victims anymore. And victims are
you know, the victims are saying not only are we
willing to speak up now and on September third, but
they're saying, release the files. You can redact our names,
but release the files. I haven't talked to anyone that
(23:08):
has said, no, I don't want those files released.
Speaker 2 (23:13):
Yeah, I mean that strikes me as something that that
they're there. The the initial claim that Bondi made about
not releasing the ebscene materials was there's a lot of
child sexual abuse material in these files. We can't release them,
we can't show it. No one cares about redacting those things,
and they should be redacted if they're videos or whatever,
absolutely redact them, edit them, you know, blur them out,
(23:36):
whatever the case. But I think that it really is
a fundamental and it astounds me that Pam Bondi, you know,
has been so corrupt in this on one level.
Speaker 1 (23:48):
So disappointing.
Speaker 10 (24:00):
In February, I did an interview on Fox and it's
been getting a lot of attention because I said, I
was asking a question about the client list, and my
response was it's sitting on my desk to be reviewed,
meaning the file along with the JFK MLK files as well.
(24:21):
That's what I meant by that. Also to the tens
of thousands of video they turned out to be child
porn downloaded by that disgusting Jeffrey Epstein. Child porn is
what they were never going to be released, never going
to see the lighted day to him being an agent.
I have no knowledge about that. We can get back
to you on that. And the minute missing from the video.
(24:43):
We released the video showing definitively the video was not conclusive,
but the evidence prior to it was showing he committed suicide.
Speaker 1 (24:57):
And what was on that there was a.
Speaker 10 (24:58):
Minute that was off the counter. And what we learned
from Eurou of Prisons was every year, every night they
redo that video as old from like nineteen ninety nine.
So every night the video is reset and every night
should have the same minute missing. So we're looking for
that video to release that as well as showing that.
Speaker 1 (25:17):
A minute is missing every night.
Speaker 2 (25:18):
And that's it, honestly, because when she was Attorney General
of Florida, she made a great show about being an
advocate for victims of sexual abuse and sexual assault. There
were there were she was one of her big pillar
items as attorney general, and now she is enabling this
pardon to go forward. She clearly was the person who
(25:40):
who ordered the ten or the thousand FBI agents to
go through the hundreds of thousands of pages of material
and and redact Trump's name from them. I mean, so
I really do think it's like this is like they're
being they're being victimized a second time by this process.
Speaker 1 (25:57):
In my view, I think I think the hard thing
is to and you know, I was not a victim
of Gallaine Maxwell. I didn't go through what many of
these survivors are going through. But I can't imagine how
they're feeling because for me seeing his face over and
over and over in the media, knowing that there are
(26:19):
hundreds of thousands of pieces of evidence, one hundreds of
thousand files and pieces of evidence, and we can't get
an investigation or a prosecution with that. How is that?
How is that setting a precedent, a very scary precedent
in our country around what is going to be considered prosecutable,
(26:42):
and in this particular crime, a sexual assault, it is
already so hard to even get a case into a courtroom,
and then two and a half percent of that ten
percent actually gets convicted, and so we actually get one,
We actually have one we ugly Maxwell in prison and
she gets moved to a country club and she's doing
(27:05):
yoga and pilates. When I know survivors Epstein and Maxwell
survivors right now are struggling to even make it through
a night of sleep while she's taking yoga and pilates.
Speaker 9 (27:25):
It would unwinden everything that my sister and all the
survivors fought court.
Speaker 8 (27:36):
It would be a disgrace of justice. It would be
picking abusers over survivors.
Speaker 1 (27:44):
Again, that was.
Speaker 11 (27:46):
Sky Roberts, the brother of Virginia Giuffree, a very prominent
accuser of Jeffrey Epstein. You just watched it, you just
heard it. You can hear the pain the victims, their families,
they are still enduring from Epstein's crimes.
Speaker 2 (28:08):
Yeah, And that to me is one of the biggest
outrages of this is that is that I just don't
want to hear this administration say that they're tough on
crime and they're freeing a child trafficker and exactly sex
trafficker when they when they're giving her privileges, She's the
only she's the only sexual predator in a minimum security
(28:32):
federal prison, the only one. And I just find that,
I think I find it such a deeply sort of
disturbing and horrible indicator of how corrupt this this situation is.
So you mentioned the survivors are going to come together
on September third, talk to us a little bit about
that event.
Speaker 1 (28:52):
So as I understand it, there is a there's there's
going to be a press conference with two representatives, a
Democrat and Republican that are coming together for this transparency
Act with survivors who have never spoken up before.
Speaker 12 (29:09):
What is most insulting is our dismissal of the victims.
It was offensive. Thomas Massey and I are having ten
of the victims on September third at the Capitol to
tell their story. We need to center the victims. That
is going to be an explosive press conference and it's
going to show how abused these women were and how
(29:31):
reprehensible it is. Then Maxwell is dismissing.
Speaker 1 (29:34):
That we are hoping to unite in a show of
force that has never been done before by survivors of
this horrific man. There's no reason why this case should
have been closed with the volume of evidence. And we
(29:56):
don't care who it is. We don't care if it's
a democratic poken, I don't care. If it's independent expressive,
we don't. We don't care. But victims have done everything right.
The government and the FBI and and even the Southern
District of Florida have have have destroyed protocols, hop skipped
(30:21):
and jumped over protocols, either by negligence, because of no negligence,
or just out of incompetence. And so there has been
very little accountability or justice, and it's it's very disturbing.
Speaker 2 (30:35):
I think you made a couple of points in there
that I think are really important. One is, and I'm
I speak for myself, but I speak for I think
almost everyone who believes in this, whether they're Republican or
I don't care who is in the files.
Speaker 5 (30:47):
Yep.
Speaker 2 (30:48):
If it's Bill Clinton, Okay, if it's Alan Derswooz Okay,
I don't care, does not matter. I think that one
of the the the inequities here that is so fundamental
is this idea that powerful people are in these materials,
significant people of consequence in the financial industry or in politics,
(31:10):
and that we would hide them because they are those people.
That is a perversion of justice that is absolutely out
of control.
Speaker 10 (31:17):
Yes.
Speaker 1 (31:19):
Yes, and we're looking at a second sweetheart deal here
for Glene Maxwell.
Speaker 5 (31:24):
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (31:25):
It's very Yeah that the two prosecutions of these people
have been deminimous in their actual impact on their lives.
Speaker 10 (31:33):
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (31:33):
And I have to say, when Pam Bondi came out
with those binders in February, I had the tiny sliver
of hope that there would be something revealed, something would
come right the tiniest liver I mean tiny.
Speaker 13 (31:53):
Attorney General Bondi says this is just phase one. She's
promising to open the government files on Jeffrey Epstein. Despite
the hype, most of what she released so far had
been made public years ago.
Speaker 3 (32:06):
Overnight, the Justice Department releasing material about the late sex
offender Jeffrey Epstein, including a three page evidence list cataloging
what investigators obtained while searching his New York mansion and
private Caribbean island. Among the items listed a photo album
of girl and Epstein, a bag containing one set of
copper handcuffs and whip, along with dozens of computers, hard drives,
(32:27):
and recording devices, and a folder containing LSJ logbook, a
reference to Epstein's island, Little Saint James. Attorney General Pam
Bondi went on TV to trumpet the release of this material,
teasing a big reveal.
Speaker 14 (32:40):
What you're going to see, hopefully tomorrow, is a lot
of flight logs, a lot of names, a lot of information,
but pretty sick what that man did.
Speaker 3 (32:53):
But much of the material had been circulating in the
public domain for years, including pilot logs from Epstein's plane
and is so called Black Book of Names and addresses.
Several conservative media figures were given early access during a
visit to the White House, showing off binders and posing
for pictures, some later posting how underwhelmed they were. Epstein
died by suicide in jail before he could be tried
(33:15):
on sex trafficking charges. His former paramore, Gelen Maxwell, was
convicted and is now considering an appeal to the US
Supreme Court. Attorney General Bondi is promising to release more
documents after a review to protect the identities of victims.
Speaker 2 (33:41):
Yeah, as I like to say to people when it
comes to this administration, reduce your expectations to.
Speaker 1 (33:45):
Zero but tiny. But what I never expected was for
the case to be completely closed and the files to
be sealed. No one could have expected that that would happen.
And that is agree just, and that is an injustice
to serve not just the Epstein and Maxwell survivors, but
to every survivor that has ever been silenced, every single survivor.
(34:09):
I will tell you in my comments and in my
DMS and in my emails our sexual assault survivors relation
to Epstein survivors and saying we are with you. We
can see what's happening here and this has happened to us.
Speaker 2 (34:23):
Yeah, it is that you know that the the type
of people who become those that kind of character, the
gas lighting, the manipulation is at a scale on a
level that ordinary people never encounter, and thank god they
never encounter it, because it's horrific. But I think that
that you know, what's what's deserved here is openness and
(34:46):
candor and transparency and accountability exactly and it and the
sick irony is we're not gonna We're not going to
get that unless survivors like you and the other survivors
are out there front and center. And so I really
salute you for doing this, and I really think it's
enormously courageous and meritorious that you're doing this. I want
(35:06):
to ask you one more question you have you have
become an advocate for sexual assault. Talk to us about
a little bit about your work in that space.
Speaker 1 (35:15):
Thank you so much for asking. So there's there's a
reason why I became an advocate when I started to
recognize what how my life had been completely derailed by
living with post traumatic stress disorder after the assault, and
how it had detrimentally affected my physical health, my emotional health,
(35:35):
my relationships, my career tanked and and I really felt
like there was this gap in care for survivors, and
it was based on societal stigma and shame that that
lack of understanding about what we freeze. That that is
actually a really common response. It's it happens a lot
(35:57):
to women, and it happens. Actually, you know, I have
I've had combat better and say, you know, yes, ma'am,
we freeze too, so do police officers. It happens, but
for some reason it's it's ignored and sexual assault survivors
and it's considered not not prosecutable. So what I'm recognizing
is that people around us need to treat us like
(36:18):
we have an injury. And so I've created something called
like sexual Assault First Aide. It's where people just understand,
they know what to do when someone says me too,
and everyone, and it's in the form of an app.
It's called with You Too. It's a social safety app
and it just helps us take care of each other
(36:39):
better daily and then in the event of a crisis.
Speaker 2 (36:43):
That's fascinating though, because it's like it's like, you know,
most people forget how to perform CPR and a lot
of them get an APP and say do these compressions.
So this is the same kind of approach.
Speaker 1 (36:52):
It's the same thing. It's the same thing. And because
if I told you Rick last night, I was raped,
for your first responses, oh, we got to go to
the police, because everybody treats it as a crime. And
what we are trying to show in this app, and
it's very trauma informed app is like sexual harm is
an injury first before it's an interrogation. And so there
is a step that needs to happen before we just
(37:15):
shove people victims off to strangers. We need to surround
them in safety, trust and support, calm their nervous system down,
make them feel safe, and then help them along the
way to look at all of their options of what
to do next. The problem is is that a survivor
is often navigating all of that alone traumatized.
Speaker 10 (37:36):
Wow.
Speaker 2 (37:36):
That is that is I think that is a really,
really wise and smart way to help the friends of
these people, And unfortunately it is an extraordinarily common it.
Speaker 1 (37:47):
Is and people don't say the right thing, not because
they're terrible people, it's because we have never we don't
talk about this issue. It's one of the reasons why
I worked so hard to develop my language around it
and to be able to speak what happened, because I
think that's also why we've been on this hamster wheel
of nothing happening, is that trauma survivors have been so
(38:09):
stuck in trauma and that area of the brain that
is affected by speech is affected by sexual harm, and
we can't get to our words. That's why I'm so
honored whenever I'm asked to speak, because I've worked really
hard to get here, to find those words and explain
what happened so that we can try to prevent people
from being left alone again.
Speaker 2 (38:32):
Well, just Michaels, I want to thank you so much
for coming on the Lincoln Project podcast today. I am
deeply moved by what you've what you've how you've articulated
your story, and by what you've done since then to
convert some of that pain and hurt and injury into
publicly facing advocacy that will hopefully help folks survive this.
And I and I want to you know, thank you
(38:54):
and the other folks who are going to be there
on the third to speak out about this because I
think it's something that that there's a massive political power
system in this country trying to suppress this story. Yeah,
and to suppress this the victims of this story. And
I'm really I'm really proud of you guys for taking that.
And I know it's a huge step to be out
(39:16):
there in public, in front of the cameras with the
with the Trump hate machine ready to turn itself on.
And and I just want to say this personally, if
you guys need somebody to tell you how to fight
back on that front when they when these bastards start
coming after you and they will, you call me, Thank you, Rick,
(39:37):
because I'll show up with it. I'll show up with
a tire iron.
Speaker 1 (39:40):
I'm counting on it.
Speaker 2 (39:42):
You got it, Okay, folks, thank you so much for
listening as always to the Lincoln Project podcast. I'm your host,
Rick Wilson. You can catch me on the Enemy's List podcast,
the Elephant in the Room podcast streaming three times a week,
the Strategy Session on Tuesday nights, that breakdown on Thursday nights,
and Behind the Numbers at the Wilson's on Fridays, where
we break down the national polling situation and we talk
(40:05):
about where the where the where the where the numbers
are and the politics landscape is in the country. Can
also join us on my substack at the Rig Wilson
and on the Lincoln Square substack. We appreciate all of
your support. We will continue this fight as long as
you guys help us stay in it. We'll talk to
you again soon. Thanks so much, everybody.
Speaker 4 (40:25):
The Lincoln Project Podcast is a Lincoln Project production executive
produced by Whitney Hayes, Then Howe and Joey Wartner Cheney,
edited by Riley Maine. Hey, folks, if you want to
support The Lincoln Project's work against Donald Trump, Elon Musk,
and this MAGA craziness, go to action dot Lincoln Project
dot us slash help LP. If you'd like to get
in touch, or have suggestions for a guest or a
(40:46):
show topic, or just want to say hi, our email
is podcast at Lincoln Project dot us for our MAGA friends.
Please no more news. Thanks so much, and we'll talk
to you again next time.
Speaker 11 (40:57):
I'm good Luck.
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