October 8, 2025 • 36 mins
He said she was “not his type.” The jury said he was lying. In this can’t-miss episode, Rick Wilson talks with E. Jean Carroll about her jaw-dropping victory in the Trump defamation and sexual assault civil case. They discuss the courtroom madness, the appeals court ruling that upheld her $83.3 million judgment, and the surreal moment she realized Trump’s mouth had finally cost him real money. Her new book, Not My Type: One Woman vs. a President, is equal parts courtroom thriller, survivor’s manifesto, and roast of America’s worst date.
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You can find E. Jean Carroll @ejeancarroll on X, and pick up her new book “Not My Type: One Woman vs. a President,” wherever fine books are sold.
Follow Rick Wilson at @TheRickWilson on X and @therickwilson.bsky.social on Bluesky, and subscribe to his Substack at therickwilson.substack.com.
Join the fight with the Lincoln Project at www.lincolnproject.us and follow LP on X at @ProjectLincoln. If you'd like to help us continue our critical work, visit https://action.lincolnproject.us/helplp to make a difference.
Go to www.bollandbranch.com/lincoln to receive up to 20% off and free shipping. Exclusions apply.
•
•
•
•
You can find E. Jean Carroll @ejeancarroll on X, and pick up her new book “Not My Type: One Woman vs. a President,” wherever fine books are sold.
Follow Rick Wilson at @TheRickWilson on X and @therickwilson.bsky.social on Bluesky, and subscribe to his Substack at therickwilson.substack.com.
Join the fight with the Lincoln Project at www.lincolnproject.us and follow LP on X at @ProjectLincoln. If you'd like to help us continue our critical work, visit https://action.lincolnproject.us/helplp to make a difference.
Go to www.bollandbranch.com/lincoln to receive up to 20% off and free shipping. Exclusions apply.
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:00):
Your attack will not be an easy one.
Speaker 2 (00:02):
Your enemy is well as trained well.
Speaker 3 (00:05):
There is not.
Speaker 4 (00:06):
A liberal America and is conservative America.
Speaker 5 (00:09):
The United States of America.
Speaker 6 (00:17):
Hey, folks, welcome back once again the Lincoln Project Podcast.
Absolutely thrilled to be joined today by eg And Carroll.
You know eg and Carroll. She is the woman who
beats Trump's ass in court like he is a rented mule.
It happens almost every time she has had to to
defend herself against him, and and to and too, to
(00:38):
bring the truth about his sexual assault against her and
his pattern of that behavior that many other women have
reported as well. And so of course Trump has tried
to sue her back for defamation. He keeps losing over
and over and over and over and over again. Egene,
I want to thank you for coming on today. You've
got a new book out called Not My Type, One
(00:59):
Woman Versus a President. Tell us the story of how
you came to write the book and and catch people
up on on on the the the saga that you
have endured with Donald Trump.
Speaker 2 (01:13):
Rick, how are you you handsome devil? So nice, so
nice to see you. Well about the book. I was
surrounded by a high comedy and there was nothing I
could have done not to write this book surrounded with
(01:37):
characters like Joe Takapina, Popeye, huge shoulders out to hear,
that has a voice like a shotgun sending the president.
Because Joe, of course is one of the great criminal
defense attorneys in the country. And so you know, they
(01:58):
have Joe Takapina standing up and addressing the jury as
if every single person's life depended on every syllable out
of his mouth.
Speaker 1 (02:11):
Is really what makes this shocking.
Speaker 7 (02:13):
This is a historic case, a monumental case, case with
that will have wide reaching ramifications, and it really today
I feel very concerned about the rule of law in
this country because it endangers the rule of law for
all Americans.
Speaker 1 (02:27):
Today it's Donald Trump, Tomorrow it's a Democrat.
Speaker 7 (02:30):
The day after, it's I don't know your friend.
Speaker 1 (02:34):
After that that you were me.
Speaker 7 (02:35):
And that's what concerns we want to prosecute, to can
use the law and the system to go after a
political opponent.
Speaker 1 (02:42):
It's something that frightens me.
Speaker 2 (02:43):
Say how innocent Donald Trump was. It was so I'm
going to use an odd word here, funny and so
tragic at the same time time and so comical of course,
at the end of every day, I ran back to
(03:06):
my hotel room and recorded every single detail I could
think of, everything I can remember. So by the time
okay to write the book, I had Rick Gold, I
had court transcripts thousands of pages. I had deposition transcripts
hundreds of pages. I had all of my notes. I
(03:28):
had all the court room drawings you know, of people's impressions.
I had all the news reports.
Speaker 3 (03:36):
Is theret this morning, though, with the news that former
president Donald Trump has been found liable for.
Speaker 6 (03:39):
Sexually abusing and defaming the writer Egen Carroll.
Speaker 8 (03:42):
A federal jury has found former president Donald Trump liable
for the nineteen ninety six sexual abuse and defamation of
former columnists e Gene Carroll.
Speaker 1 (03:51):
We have reporting here. You may have seen some of
it late in the day.
Speaker 9 (03:54):
The sexual abuse case against Donald Trump late today led
a New York jury to find Trump.
Speaker 3 (03:59):
Liable for sexual abuse and defamation against Eugene Carroll.
Speaker 10 (04:03):
And that former president Donald Trump has been found liable
for sexual assault in the Egene Carroll suit.
Speaker 11 (04:09):
That is the main headline crossing the wire right now.
Speaker 8 (04:13):
Or Trump was ordered to pay Carroll five million dollars
in damages after a jury took just three hours to
reach its verda. Carroll's court victory comes four years after
she first made the allegation that Trump raped her in
a department store dressing room in the mid nineties.
Speaker 2 (04:28):
But the jury also finds Trump libele for defaming Carroll's.
Speaker 11 (04:31):
She wrote an article confessing this or bringing this out
in public for the first time in twenty nineteen, and
he calls her a liar and a bunch of other things.
So she sued him for defamation as well. So she
wins on that point as well, and that could very
well add to punitive damages.
Speaker 6 (04:45):
On his social media. He called the decision a disgrace.
Speaker 11 (04:48):
With Trump, it's been priced into it for years that
he has a history with women. But an actual finding,
you know, in a court against him, I think has
more of an effect in just.
Speaker 2 (04:57):
Talk everybody having a different point of view. I had
so much material. It was well, you know, you're a writer,
he'd be given a high really.
Speaker 6 (05:10):
Like they wrote the outline for you.
Speaker 2 (05:12):
Also, it's like what I used to write for Saturday
Night Live, So it was like reading a Saturday Night
Live script. Really, it was like, who could It was
so bizarre.
Speaker 6 (05:24):
You know, it's funny because what you said really struck
me just now. It was like from an origins of
something terrible. Their absurdity in trying to defend it made
it into high comedy.
Speaker 2 (05:38):
Yes, that's it, that's it, that's me.
Speaker 6 (05:42):
It just nothing about the guy, if you For those
of you who haven't spent as much time as each
he and I have studying Donald Trump and being anthropologist
of his behavior for various for different reasons, but with
the same sort of outcome. He is a figure who
does not think he's comic, but he's comic, and the
people who surround him have become like imitators of him,
(06:06):
and so they get even more over dramatic and even
more ridiculous with time.
Speaker 2 (06:12):
No, you're exactly right, And you know what, Rick, the
jury was mesmerized. Oh oh my god. They could not
take their eyes off of him, because he moved around
and grunted and moaned and hissed and made such noises
(06:37):
every single second he was in the courtroom. And then
after he would leave the courtroom, he would go out
and tell the world what he thought went on in
the courtroom, which I'm the one who should receive the
damages I'm the one who suffered. I'm the one.
Speaker 9 (06:59):
What else can you expect from a Trump hating Clinton
appointed judge who went out of his way to make
sure that the result of this trial was as negative
as it could possibly be, speaking to it in control
of a jury from an anti Trump area which is
probably the worst place in the United States for me
(07:21):
to get a fair trial. Will be appealing this decision.
It's a disgrace. I don't even know who this woman is.
I have no idea who she is, where she came from.
This is another scam. It's a political witch hunt, and
somehow we're going to have to fight this up. We
cannot let our country go into this abyss. This is disgraceful.
(07:45):
You have somebody running for office, you have a woman
that's financed and lied about it. She totally lied about
it by Democrat operatives, like just about the biggest one
there is, and she said that was true. They found
that you lied about it, and the judge wasn't even
I guess letting it be put in as evidence. The
(08:09):
whole thing is a scam and it's a shame and
it's a disgrace to our country.
Speaker 2 (08:15):
Like Saint Sebastian tied to the tree and being.
Speaker 6 (08:19):
Shot with arrows.
Speaker 2 (08:21):
Oh my god.
Speaker 6 (08:27):
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(08:49):
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Speaker 1 (08:59):
It was funny.
Speaker 6 (08:59):
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Speaker 2 (11:40):
Also, we had his second criminal defendse lawyer Alina Haba esquire.
Speaker 3 (11:46):
No, No, I'm glad you asked me that question.
Speaker 10 (11:50):
No, I'm not having any second thoughts.
Speaker 3 (11:52):
About representing President Trump. It is the proudest thing I
could ever do. What I am having second thoughts about
is the license that I stay here with that the
people in there are supposed to have. I have not
speakeen because I respect my ethics while I'm on trial.
Speaker 10 (12:09):
But let me now speak.
Speaker 12 (12:10):
About what has happened.
Speaker 10 (12:12):
I have sat on trial after trial for months in
this state, the state of New York, Attorney General Letitia James,
and now this weeks weeks why because President Trump is
leading in the polls and now we see what you
get in New York.
Speaker 3 (12:33):
So don't get a twisted Whoever asked me that question.
I am so proud to stand with President Trump, but
I am not proud to stand with what I saw
in that courtroom. I'm not finished. Let me just finish
and I'll take questions.
Speaker 12 (12:45):
Please.
Speaker 2 (12:46):
No, very very beautiful, beautiful woman, Rick, very confident, super smart,
didn't know Diddley squat about the law, and he would
belittle her and moan at her and complain to her
the you know, much of the trial, he was a
(13:08):
stand up, stand up and Alina Hobba would stand up
and she would have no idea why she was standing up.
Speaker 6 (13:16):
It was I seem to recall. The judge had a
few words from Miss Hobba during the course of this
uh during the course of this adventure, that we're not
very kind.
Speaker 2 (13:27):
No, he said, Miss Habba, you are within a few
minutes of being sent to lock up, Miss Hobba, and.
Speaker 9 (13:41):
I feel sad that I have to come up here
and explain it. I have all this legal talent, but
legal talent cannot overcome rig judges. They can't overcome a
four percent Republican area. And I'm disappointed in.
Speaker 6 (14:00):
My legal talent.
Speaker 9 (14:01):
I'll be honest with you.
Speaker 6 (14:03):
It came out for the best in the end. But
Trump has tried everything in the book to avoid paying
the judgments that he owes you. Now he's trying to
I don't know where it stands right now, but I
heard the other day he was trying to get the
Justice Department to pay the legal judgments because he's president.
I mean, this guy's like his thinking on him as
(14:26):
is so barke and so messed up. I just find
it like fascinating how desperate he is to always avoid
any responsibility.
Speaker 2 (14:37):
Well, we've had a clean sweep. We want two unanimous
Jerry Shroud and all the decisions in the United States
Courts of Appeal, all of them clean sweep. And now
it goes to the Supreme Court. Now, Rick, you are
an expert in this. What do you think the odds
(14:57):
are that the Supreme Court takes this case where the
President of the United States was found liable.
Speaker 6 (15:06):
I think I think they duck it. I think they're
gonna duck this case because I don't think there's any
winning scenario for them. No matter what they give him,
it's never going to be enough in this court. So
I don't think they're gonna I think they're I think
they're gonna let it stand.
Speaker 1 (15:21):
I don't.
Speaker 6 (15:22):
I can't see a scenario where they picked this case
up and and and I mean, theyn't expanded executive power
a lot, but this is like a fantasy version of
expanding executive power, Like, oh yeah, executive power now includes
that we have to pay the president's legal bills for
actions and crimes he committed before he was president. That's
a I.
Speaker 4 (15:42):
Mean that, that's a that's a wild degree of deference
to the to the White House that I can't see them,
even this Supreme Court. I just have trouble imagine them
doing that.
Speaker 2 (15:54):
But it's hard to imagine what they will do. But
I think I agree with you. I think that's the
smart move. That's the smart move. Uh, we'll see if
it What do you think about.
Speaker 6 (16:09):
Jimmy Kimmel, You know, when when comedy becomes the illegal,
you're not in a free country anymore. When when when
a criticism of a president or or a president's friends
becomes something that gets you punished, taken off the air,
or when the government uses its power over people. I mean, look,
(16:30):
you're you're exactly You're sort of the canary in the
coal mine of this. They they they they wanted to
avoid responsibility for their own statements and actions, and and
they'll shortcut anything they can to get there. They're trying
to shortcut freedom of speech in this country right now.
And you know, for people who you know, you and
(16:52):
I are both on the president's like bad list, it
concerns me somewhat. But on the other hand, you know,
I think that everybody still needs to stand up and
keep telling the truth about the guy. That's what That
was your great gift in a lot of ways. You
kept telling the truth about Trump, even when all of
his allies and all and Trump himself and his famous
(17:15):
with not my type, all the crowd, even though he
confused you with his own wife at one point.
Speaker 12 (17:21):
This is the former president of the United States answering
questions in a deposition about a rape he insists he
never committed, saying of his accuser, Egene Carrol, she's not
my type.
Speaker 9 (17:33):
I take it, sir, that you stand by that statement today.
Speaker 6 (17:36):
Yes, I do.
Speaker 12 (17:37):
Donald Trump shown this photo the moment he met Carol
in the late nineteen eighties.
Speaker 13 (17:42):
You're in front of you a black and white photograph
that we've marked as DJT twenty three.
Speaker 12 (17:46):
When asked to identify the woman in the picture. Trump
mistakes Carol for his ex wife, Marla Maples.
Speaker 2 (17:52):
It's Marla, you said, Marl's in this photo.
Speaker 9 (17:59):
That's Marla's.
Speaker 2 (18:00):
It's my wife.
Speaker 9 (18:03):
Here, Carol.
Speaker 12 (18:07):
Trump continues to insist he didn't rape Carol because of
the way she looks, even after he confused her for
his ex wife. So her lawyer following up with this question.
Speaker 9 (18:17):
The only difference between me and other people is I'm honest,
she's not my type.
Speaker 1 (18:22):
I take it.
Speaker 13 (18:23):
The three women you've married are all your type.
Speaker 6 (18:26):
Yeah, that's that story to me is still like the
one of the funniest things ever.
Speaker 2 (18:31):
Oh my god. You know when you talk about Keith
speaking the truth to Donald Trump, and it was delicious
to tell him to his face in the courtroom for
several days, that was gorgeous. But my attorneys, huh. Robbie
(18:53):
Kaplan is one of the great attorneys of her generation.
She's a killer, She's a killer god, and she told
the truth to Trump's face so brutally. He got up
Rick during the middle of her final argument to the
(19:14):
jury and walked out of court. Now, isn't that what
a guilty man does? He turns and runs.
Speaker 6 (19:23):
On a court. I mean, you know, it's it's uh,
it's uh. I'm gonna go back to my divinity schooling
as a child. Proverb twenty eight dash one. The guilty
man flees when no one pursues him.
Speaker 2 (19:35):
Yes, yes, yes, and so you're right. You keep what
you do is you always. I hate to say it.
We can't be quiet, and not only must we speak up,
but we must attack attack attack, yes, attack that.
Speaker 6 (19:55):
I mean your story, your story. It was a pattern
or or was part of a revealed part of a
pattern of Trump's behavior, and you were one of the
first people to be brave enough to come out and
just say no, I'm not going to sign an NDA,
I'm not going to take five grand and go away.
I'm not going to pretend like Wrappen.
Speaker 2 (20:16):
Can you imagine many.
Speaker 6 (20:17):
Other women who've come out out of the out of
Trump's past now and this pattern of abuse. I mean,
it shocks me how long it's gone on and how
deep the the ugliness of it really is.
Speaker 2 (20:32):
Rick, you are one of the few people who've mentioned
the other women in this whole Epstein thing, this whole
trauma of vaccident in the last seven or eight weeks.
You're the only person that I've listen or heard talk
about the other women there. But you know what the
problem they're adult women and they have careers, and they
(20:55):
speak up. They speak up. They're not the fifteen year
old fallen victim. So that these women, boy, they spoke up,
you know, certainly a dozen incredible women, and then well
what does it count? Twenty four seven, eight seven.
Speaker 6 (21:18):
Twenty seven From what I understand, I could be it
could be plus. I don't I you know, it's it
could be plus or minus. You know, it's I had
a I had a female friend years ago victim of
sexual assault, and and I remember sitting with her after
this and and with with when the cops were there.
(21:40):
You know, oh, the woman said to her. The woman
said to her, the woman cops said to her, you
know the problem with guys like the guy that you
because she had found out there were he was it
was a pattern with this guy of being abusive, and
the woman cop, I'll never forget it. She looked at
my friend and said, I said, the is You're not
(22:01):
the only one. Yeah, she goes, it feels like you're
the only one. But you're not the only one. And
that's why you got to be. You got to come
out and give us this stuff on the record and
all that. Yes, which yes, you know you were on
the record. You were out there saying this is what
he did, this is his behavior. And I think it's
given some of these other women the courage to come
(22:23):
out and say, you know what, I'm not going to
be afraid of his lawyers. I'm not going to be
afraid of these people. I'm just going to do it.
Speaker 2 (22:30):
It's hard, wreck it's hard.
Speaker 6 (22:32):
I know, I know.
Speaker 2 (22:33):
Any woman who comes out, she's going to lose her
job boot right, because women are not believed. The man,
who usually has more money and has more lawyers, can
just first of all, sue her for defamation. And then
what woman has enough money to fight a defamation suit?
Speaker 6 (22:48):
I mean, what woman?
Speaker 2 (22:50):
Nobody? I mean not even rich women have enough money
to do it. It's so expensive, especially when you have
somebody like Trump who literally has hunt his lawyers. So
it is and inevitably you're going to lose your job.
I was fired from mail Boom. You're just going to
lose your job. So that's why women don't speak up.
(23:12):
If they have two children to feed, they cannot speak up.
If it's their line manager on the floor of an
automotive department. If she speaks up about her manager, her
kids go without their dinner. So this is what the
problem is with, you know, and the female cop telling
your friend that that was a good cop.
Speaker 6 (23:33):
She was.
Speaker 1 (23:35):
That was way back.
Speaker 6 (23:36):
That was way back in college. And I will never
forget it. It's almost forty years ago now and I
will never forget it. She's like, there, if he's done
it to you, he's done it to other people. You
got to help us. And yeah, you know, and Trump
had done it to other people. He had, Yes, he
had behaved this way. Yes, yes, And you know it's
(23:57):
one thing. If Trump was just a garden variety adulterous asshole,
that would be one thing.
Speaker 2 (24:05):
Right, you almost made me spit out my tea. Yes,
you almost got me, you all I will looked and
there was my iPhone. I was afraid to spit it
out on my iPhone. Really that that was right. That's
a good one. Wreck if he had just been if he.
Speaker 6 (24:21):
Had just been a guy who was fucking around as
as as you know, many many accounts say that that
was also the case. But there is a through line.
Once you have not one or two or three or
five or ten, but twenty seven or more women who
say an aspect of this was him forcing himself on
(24:41):
me in whatever context. You know when that when that
pattern starts to emerge, and it's important that you, you know,
you you were willing to go out put it all
on the line to tell other women you can't you
you can't if you can't feel like you're you're you're
strong enough, for rich enough, for whatever to do this.
Here's an example.
Speaker 1 (25:02):
I'm going to lead by example.
Speaker 6 (25:03):
So I really think, I really think that's one of
the things that you've done that is really ricorious.
Speaker 2 (25:10):
Rick, Rick, I am an old lady. I had nothing
to lose. I have had a great life. I have
had a great life and I had nothing to lose.
You know, they fired me. Okay, fine, they fired me.
But and I can take the horrible abuse because I'm
an old woman and I don't get two flying figs
(25:31):
what people think. But it's very different for a young
lady of sixty.
Speaker 6 (25:37):
Sure, sure it is a lot.
Speaker 2 (25:40):
Yeah, So that's what that's the horrible problem. That's it
is the horrible problem. He has been accused by woman
after a woman and nobody believes him, and everybody's forgotten it,
and everybody has moved on. It's to me astonishing.
Speaker 13 (26:03):
This is just an important issue. This is something that
should not be swept under the table any longer. This
affects people through their entire life, and it's just unnecessary.
Speaker 1 (26:16):
This is his mo o.
Speaker 13 (26:17):
It has been his mo since he was probably a
teenager or even before. I wasn't the first, I wasn't
the last. It it's just amazing he's gotten away with it.
Speaker 5 (26:29):
It's telling our next generation of women that we don't
care about them. We don't care if they're abused, we
don't care if they have any independence over their bodies.
It's taking us back to another time and throwing us
into a handmaid's tail. It's really as horrifying. It's like
a nightmare.
Speaker 14 (26:47):
I think it's astonishing that we've allowed this to happen,
That we've allowed this man to get into the White
House in the first place, after women did come up
in twenty sixteen, and then you've got more people who've
had people come against them incredibly, like you said, and
now they are basically controlling what we do with our bodies,
and they're telling us what we can do with our bodies,
(27:08):
and we know they don't respect our bodies and they
don't respect us as women. This is a man who
doesn't take no for answer, and that's something we really
need to pay attention.
Speaker 6 (27:18):
To, you know, I think it is. I think it
is one of those things that the political supporters around
(27:43):
him pretend it never happened and all and no, what no,
this is just you just made it all up. It
is the worst. It is the worst, going back to
the worst sort of old that the nineteen twenties, thirties, forties, fifties,
sixties rape defense. Oh she was a nuttererous slut, you know, yeah, yeah, yeah, No.
None of this, none of this I think has has
(28:07):
ever stuck to him, like the like like the case
you brought here, and the and the statements you made
against him, and the Epstein statements that that are out there,
and the and the cover up he's performing on Epstein,
Like he tried to cover this up with you by
(28:27):
making excuses and bullshitty and lying. Oh.
Speaker 1 (28:30):
I never knew.
Speaker 9 (28:33):
But as far as I know, I never met her,
I never touched her.
Speaker 1 (28:39):
I have I would have had no.
Speaker 9 (28:42):
Interest in meeting her in any way, shape or form.
I know you're gonna say it's a terrible thing to say,
but it couldn't have happened. It didn't happen, and she
would not have been the chosen one.
Speaker 6 (28:59):
But but the Epstein stuff is driving him so crazy
because he's covering it up. I mean, what are your
thoughts on the on the on the role of his
friendship with Epstein, and like, what's happening with all this?
Speaker 2 (29:13):
Well, he definitely Jill Hearth who brought the first lawsuit
against him for sexual assault. Later she she had to
drop the case because her husband made her drop the
case so they could make a deal with Donald Trump.
Drives me crazy. But anyway, they were Jill was running
(29:35):
something called the Calendar Girl's beauty contests and these were
young women from acrossing it and they were all Jill,
and six or seven of the calendar girls came to
spend the night at marrillarco at who's a surprise, who
came to help Trump show the calendar girls around Mary Lago.
Speaker 6 (29:58):
Would that be Jeffrey Epstein, Yes.
Speaker 2 (30:00):
It would be his neighbor, and that two of them
took the calendar girls around. Now Jill has uh. I
don't know the young woman's name, but definitely Trump made
a move on her that night and she said, what
do you, uh, Donald, what are you doing? I would
never do anything like on the first state. The next morning,
(30:24):
according to Jill and according to her.
Speaker 15 (30:28):
Her uh her, the according to her complaint, her court complaint,
the next morning, he appeared in the young girl's bedroom
and said, got into bed with her and said, okay,
it's the next day.
Speaker 2 (30:46):
I think she kicked him out of bed. So this
is what was going on with he and Epstein going
around mar Alago. So they were like nine and ten
those two. Yeah, Trump has young girls to his place.
Who shows up Epstein? So yeah, yeah, it.
Speaker 6 (31:05):
It really is. I think in a lot of ways, psychologically,
this Epstein stuff has broken him more than almost anything
else in the last few years, because he is he
hates it. It's on and every day and it's like
finally the guilt of normal human would feel and the
fear of being of being exposed is finally there.
Speaker 1 (31:25):
In a lot of ways, now, he.
Speaker 2 (31:26):
Could have stopped it. He could have stopped Epstein. You understand,
he could have stopped Epsyre's There's no question they were
running together as you wild young man. You know, Tom Kats.
Speaker 6 (31:39):
It is something I heard about in the late nineties
in Palm Beach, like, oh, Jeffrey Epstein and Trump their buddies, Yeah,
and you know it. Yeah, it is one of those
stories that just you know, I don't know how much
we'll ever see it, but I don't know if we'll
get as much of a of a narrative revelation as
you got in the Truckles. But I think it is
(32:01):
something that he fears and loads and hates every day.
But I mean, one thing about this book that I
think is it's not a depressing book, kind of a
great color piece about the characters in this play that
you've this absurd drama you find yourself in, and and
(32:23):
this and these people that are just the people around him.
The like the portraits you do pain of these people.
It's phenomenal how how comic they really are, even when
they're trying to be very serious.
Speaker 2 (32:38):
Yes, well, here's the thing. Alena Habber in the in
deposition was out number one to prove that I'm a slut.
Number two, I'm a dirty slut. Number three, I'm a dirty,
filthy slut. So one of her questions was, e G.
(32:59):
I hate to ask you this that how many people?
How many people have you slept with? Right, and Rick,
it was one of the great moments, because you know what,
I loved talking about I love talking about my lovers.
They were high points of my life. And boy, she
(33:21):
she could not have gotten me on a subject that
I was more delighted to talk about than my lovers.
And I'm sure you would do the same if.
Speaker 6 (33:32):
I've been in your shoes, though, I would have looked
at her straight in the eye and said, before or
after your husband.
Speaker 2 (33:37):
A boomm Oh my god, Oh that is that is
such a great Oh god, I love it. Oh, come on,
I love that.
Speaker 12 (33:52):
Oh.
Speaker 2 (33:52):
I wish we could set I wish we could I
wish I could make an amendment right now to the
deposition to say that that's yeah now.
Speaker 6 (34:00):
But yeah, they you know, it's like it's like there's
an old phrase from Ralph Waldo Emerson. He was describing
Abraham Lincoln's cabinet and during the Civil War, and he
said they were all such strong people because the institution
was the shadow of the man. These people are all
a shadow of Donald Trump, right, They're all they've all
(34:22):
played roles, and they've all adopted these behaviors in trying
to defend his sexual assault and his sexual improprieties. They've
all like adopted becoming little Trumps.
Speaker 2 (34:34):
Yes, that's true, and that's true. Do you know probably
people are going to stop paying their income taxes now
because Trump didn't. You know, people are lying more. I'm
guessing because the President of the United States lies. It's uh,
we're not It's I don't. I think we're going to
get through this. I really do. He's not gonna.
Speaker 6 (34:54):
You know what, I have a I have a great
faith in America's resiliency, and I I know when people
are out there speaking the truth, it gets harder for
the darkness to take over. So well, listen, Egen, I
adore you, as you know. I'm so glad you came
on today. We're gonna have to get this podcast out
(35:14):
in the next couple of days, folks. The book is
not my type. One woman versus the President, and it
is the story of Egene's long running battle with Donald
Trump for justice and for honesty, and it's really terrific. Egen,
thank you again. We'll talk to you soon. Okay, thank you.
Speaker 2 (35:32):
I loved it. See thank You.
Speaker 16 (35:37):
The Lincoln Project Podcast is a Lincoln Project production executive
produced by Whitney Hayes, then How and Joey Wartner.
Speaker 1 (35:43):
Cheney, edited by Riley Maine.
Speaker 16 (35:45):
Hey, folks, if you want to support The Lincoln Project's
work against Donald Trump, Elon Musk, and this Maga craziness,
go to action dot Lincoln Project dot us slash hel LP.
If you'd like to get in touch, or have suggestions
for a guest or a show topic, or just want
to say hey hi, our email is podcast at Lincoln
Project dot us for our MAGA friends.
Speaker 1 (36:04):
Please no more news. Thanks so much. We'll talk to
you again next time, and good luck.
Your attack will not be an easy one.
Speaker 2 (00:02):
Your enemy is well as trained well.
Speaker 3 (00:05):
There is not.
Speaker 4 (00:06):
A liberal America and is conservative America.
Speaker 5 (00:09):
The United States of America.
Speaker 6 (00:17):
Hey, folks, welcome back once again the Lincoln Project Podcast.
Absolutely thrilled to be joined today by eg And Carroll.
You know eg and Carroll. She is the woman who
beats Trump's ass in court like he is a rented mule.
It happens almost every time she has had to to
defend herself against him, and and to and too, to
(00:38):
bring the truth about his sexual assault against her and
his pattern of that behavior that many other women have
reported as well. And so of course Trump has tried
to sue her back for defamation. He keeps losing over
and over and over and over and over again. Egene,
I want to thank you for coming on today. You've
got a new book out called Not My Type, One
(00:59):
Woman Versus a President. Tell us the story of how
you came to write the book and and catch people
up on on on the the the saga that you
have endured with Donald Trump.
Speaker 2 (01:13):
Rick, how are you you handsome devil? So nice, so
nice to see you. Well about the book. I was
surrounded by a high comedy and there was nothing I
could have done not to write this book surrounded with
(01:37):
characters like Joe Takapina, Popeye, huge shoulders out to hear,
that has a voice like a shotgun sending the president.
Because Joe, of course is one of the great criminal
defense attorneys in the country. And so you know, they
(01:58):
have Joe Takapina standing up and addressing the jury as
if every single person's life depended on every syllable out
of his mouth.
Speaker 1 (02:11):
Is really what makes this shocking.
Speaker 7 (02:13):
This is a historic case, a monumental case, case with
that will have wide reaching ramifications, and it really today
I feel very concerned about the rule of law in
this country because it endangers the rule of law for
all Americans.
Speaker 1 (02:27):
Today it's Donald Trump, Tomorrow it's a Democrat.
Speaker 7 (02:30):
The day after, it's I don't know your friend.
Speaker 1 (02:34):
After that that you were me.
Speaker 7 (02:35):
And that's what concerns we want to prosecute, to can
use the law and the system to go after a
political opponent.
Speaker 1 (02:42):
It's something that frightens me.
Speaker 2 (02:43):
Say how innocent Donald Trump was. It was so I'm
going to use an odd word here, funny and so
tragic at the same time time and so comical of course,
at the end of every day, I ran back to
(03:06):
my hotel room and recorded every single detail I could
think of, everything I can remember. So by the time
okay to write the book, I had Rick Gold, I
had court transcripts thousands of pages. I had deposition transcripts
hundreds of pages. I had all of my notes. I
(03:28):
had all the court room drawings you know, of people's impressions.
I had all the news reports.
Speaker 3 (03:36):
Is theret this morning, though, with the news that former
president Donald Trump has been found liable for.
Speaker 6 (03:39):
Sexually abusing and defaming the writer Egen Carroll.
Speaker 8 (03:42):
A federal jury has found former president Donald Trump liable
for the nineteen ninety six sexual abuse and defamation of
former columnists e Gene Carroll.
Speaker 1 (03:51):
We have reporting here. You may have seen some of
it late in the day.
Speaker 9 (03:54):
The sexual abuse case against Donald Trump late today led
a New York jury to find Trump.
Speaker 3 (03:59):
Liable for sexual abuse and defamation against Eugene Carroll.
Speaker 10 (04:03):
And that former president Donald Trump has been found liable
for sexual assault in the Egene Carroll suit.
Speaker 11 (04:09):
That is the main headline crossing the wire right now.
Speaker 8 (04:13):
Or Trump was ordered to pay Carroll five million dollars
in damages after a jury took just three hours to
reach its verda. Carroll's court victory comes four years after
she first made the allegation that Trump raped her in
a department store dressing room in the mid nineties.
Speaker 2 (04:28):
But the jury also finds Trump libele for defaming Carroll's.
Speaker 11 (04:31):
She wrote an article confessing this or bringing this out
in public for the first time in twenty nineteen, and
he calls her a liar and a bunch of other things.
So she sued him for defamation as well. So she
wins on that point as well, and that could very
well add to punitive damages.
Speaker 6 (04:45):
On his social media. He called the decision a disgrace.
Speaker 11 (04:48):
With Trump, it's been priced into it for years that
he has a history with women. But an actual finding,
you know, in a court against him, I think has
more of an effect in just.
Speaker 2 (04:57):
Talk everybody having a different point of view. I had
so much material. It was well, you know, you're a writer,
he'd be given a high really.
Speaker 6 (05:10):
Like they wrote the outline for you.
Speaker 2 (05:12):
Also, it's like what I used to write for Saturday
Night Live, So it was like reading a Saturday Night
Live script. Really, it was like, who could It was
so bizarre.
Speaker 6 (05:24):
You know, it's funny because what you said really struck
me just now. It was like from an origins of
something terrible. Their absurdity in trying to defend it made
it into high comedy.
Speaker 2 (05:38):
Yes, that's it, that's it, that's me.
Speaker 6 (05:42):
It just nothing about the guy, if you For those
of you who haven't spent as much time as each
he and I have studying Donald Trump and being anthropologist
of his behavior for various for different reasons, but with
the same sort of outcome. He is a figure who
does not think he's comic, but he's comic, and the
people who surround him have become like imitators of him,
(06:06):
and so they get even more over dramatic and even
more ridiculous with time.
Speaker 2 (06:12):
No, you're exactly right, And you know what, Rick, the
jury was mesmerized. Oh oh my god. They could not
take their eyes off of him, because he moved around
and grunted and moaned and hissed and made such noises
(06:37):
every single second he was in the courtroom. And then
after he would leave the courtroom, he would go out
and tell the world what he thought went on in
the courtroom, which I'm the one who should receive the
damages I'm the one who suffered. I'm the one.
Speaker 9 (06:59):
What else can you expect from a Trump hating Clinton
appointed judge who went out of his way to make
sure that the result of this trial was as negative
as it could possibly be, speaking to it in control
of a jury from an anti Trump area which is
probably the worst place in the United States for me
(07:21):
to get a fair trial. Will be appealing this decision.
It's a disgrace. I don't even know who this woman is.
I have no idea who she is, where she came from.
This is another scam. It's a political witch hunt, and
somehow we're going to have to fight this up. We
cannot let our country go into this abyss. This is disgraceful.
(07:45):
You have somebody running for office, you have a woman
that's financed and lied about it. She totally lied about
it by Democrat operatives, like just about the biggest one
there is, and she said that was true. They found
that you lied about it, and the judge wasn't even
I guess letting it be put in as evidence. The
(08:09):
whole thing is a scam and it's a shame and
it's a disgrace to our country.
Speaker 2 (08:15):
Like Saint Sebastian tied to the tree and being.
Speaker 6 (08:19):
Shot with arrows.
Speaker 2 (08:21):
Oh my god.
Speaker 6 (08:27):
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days where everyone's schedule it's so hecky. You're traveling, you're
you're at the beach, you're at parties all But that's
(08:49):
fading down now a little bit, and we're wearing that
phase of the year where comfort and ritual and companionship
are really important.
Speaker 1 (08:59):
It was funny.
Speaker 6 (08:59):
I I thought about it the other day because I
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Speaker 2 (11:40):
Also, we had his second criminal defendse lawyer Alina Haba esquire.
Speaker 3 (11:46):
No, No, I'm glad you asked me that question.
Speaker 10 (11:50):
No, I'm not having any second thoughts.
Speaker 3 (11:52):
About representing President Trump. It is the proudest thing I
could ever do. What I am having second thoughts about
is the license that I stay here with that the
people in there are supposed to have. I have not
speakeen because I respect my ethics while I'm on trial.
Speaker 10 (12:09):
But let me now speak.
Speaker 12 (12:10):
About what has happened.
Speaker 10 (12:12):
I have sat on trial after trial for months in
this state, the state of New York, Attorney General Letitia James,
and now this weeks weeks why because President Trump is
leading in the polls and now we see what you
get in New York.
Speaker 3 (12:33):
So don't get a twisted Whoever asked me that question.
I am so proud to stand with President Trump, but
I am not proud to stand with what I saw
in that courtroom. I'm not finished. Let me just finish
and I'll take questions.
Speaker 12 (12:45):
Please.
Speaker 2 (12:46):
No, very very beautiful, beautiful woman, Rick, very confident, super smart,
didn't know Diddley squat about the law, and he would
belittle her and moan at her and complain to her
the you know, much of the trial, he was a
(13:08):
stand up, stand up and Alina Hobba would stand up
and she would have no idea why she was standing up.
Speaker 6 (13:16):
It was I seem to recall. The judge had a
few words from Miss Hobba during the course of this
uh during the course of this adventure, that we're not
very kind.
Speaker 2 (13:27):
No, he said, Miss Habba, you are within a few
minutes of being sent to lock up, Miss Hobba, and.
Speaker 9 (13:41):
I feel sad that I have to come up here
and explain it. I have all this legal talent, but
legal talent cannot overcome rig judges. They can't overcome a
four percent Republican area. And I'm disappointed in.
Speaker 6 (14:00):
My legal talent.
Speaker 9 (14:01):
I'll be honest with you.
Speaker 6 (14:03):
It came out for the best in the end. But
Trump has tried everything in the book to avoid paying
the judgments that he owes you. Now he's trying to
I don't know where it stands right now, but I
heard the other day he was trying to get the
Justice Department to pay the legal judgments because he's president.
I mean, this guy's like his thinking on him as
(14:26):
is so barke and so messed up. I just find
it like fascinating how desperate he is to always avoid
any responsibility.
Speaker 2 (14:37):
Well, we've had a clean sweep. We want two unanimous
Jerry Shroud and all the decisions in the United States
Courts of Appeal, all of them clean sweep. And now
it goes to the Supreme Court. Now, Rick, you are
an expert in this. What do you think the odds
(14:57):
are that the Supreme Court takes this case where the
President of the United States was found liable.
Speaker 6 (15:06):
I think I think they duck it. I think they're
gonna duck this case because I don't think there's any
winning scenario for them. No matter what they give him,
it's never going to be enough in this court. So
I don't think they're gonna I think they're I think
they're gonna let it stand.
Speaker 1 (15:21):
I don't.
Speaker 6 (15:22):
I can't see a scenario where they picked this case
up and and and I mean, theyn't expanded executive power
a lot, but this is like a fantasy version of
expanding executive power, Like, oh yeah, executive power now includes
that we have to pay the president's legal bills for
actions and crimes he committed before he was president. That's
a I.
Speaker 4 (15:42):
Mean that, that's a that's a wild degree of deference
to the to the White House that I can't see them,
even this Supreme Court. I just have trouble imagine them
doing that.
Speaker 2 (15:54):
But it's hard to imagine what they will do. But
I think I agree with you. I think that's the
smart move. That's the smart move. Uh, we'll see if
it What do you think about.
Speaker 6 (16:09):
Jimmy Kimmel, You know, when when comedy becomes the illegal,
you're not in a free country anymore. When when when
a criticism of a president or or a president's friends
becomes something that gets you punished, taken off the air,
or when the government uses its power over people. I mean, look,
(16:30):
you're you're exactly You're sort of the canary in the
coal mine of this. They they they they wanted to
avoid responsibility for their own statements and actions, and and
they'll shortcut anything they can to get there. They're trying
to shortcut freedom of speech in this country right now.
And you know, for people who you know, you and
(16:52):
I are both on the president's like bad list, it
concerns me somewhat. But on the other hand, you know,
I think that everybody still needs to stand up and
keep telling the truth about the guy. That's what That
was your great gift in a lot of ways. You
kept telling the truth about Trump, even when all of
his allies and all and Trump himself and his famous
(17:15):
with not my type, all the crowd, even though he
confused you with his own wife at one point.
Speaker 12 (17:21):
This is the former president of the United States answering
questions in a deposition about a rape he insists he
never committed, saying of his accuser, Egene Carrol, she's not
my type.
Speaker 9 (17:33):
I take it, sir, that you stand by that statement today.
Speaker 6 (17:36):
Yes, I do.
Speaker 12 (17:37):
Donald Trump shown this photo the moment he met Carol
in the late nineteen eighties.
Speaker 13 (17:42):
You're in front of you a black and white photograph
that we've marked as DJT twenty three.
Speaker 12 (17:46):
When asked to identify the woman in the picture. Trump
mistakes Carol for his ex wife, Marla Maples.
Speaker 2 (17:52):
It's Marla, you said, Marl's in this photo.
Speaker 9 (17:59):
That's Marla's.
Speaker 2 (18:00):
It's my wife.
Speaker 9 (18:03):
Here, Carol.
Speaker 12 (18:07):
Trump continues to insist he didn't rape Carol because of
the way she looks, even after he confused her for
his ex wife. So her lawyer following up with this question.
Speaker 9 (18:17):
The only difference between me and other people is I'm honest,
she's not my type.
Speaker 1 (18:22):
I take it.
Speaker 13 (18:23):
The three women you've married are all your type.
Speaker 6 (18:26):
Yeah, that's that story to me is still like the
one of the funniest things ever.
Speaker 2 (18:31):
Oh my god. You know when you talk about Keith
speaking the truth to Donald Trump, and it was delicious
to tell him to his face in the courtroom for
several days, that was gorgeous. But my attorneys, huh. Robbie
(18:53):
Kaplan is one of the great attorneys of her generation.
She's a killer, She's a killer god, and she told
the truth to Trump's face so brutally. He got up
Rick during the middle of her final argument to the
(19:14):
jury and walked out of court. Now, isn't that what
a guilty man does? He turns and runs.
Speaker 6 (19:23):
On a court. I mean, you know, it's it's uh,
it's uh. I'm gonna go back to my divinity schooling
as a child. Proverb twenty eight dash one. The guilty
man flees when no one pursues him.
Speaker 2 (19:35):
Yes, yes, yes, and so you're right. You keep what
you do is you always. I hate to say it.
We can't be quiet, and not only must we speak up,
but we must attack attack attack, yes, attack that.
Speaker 6 (19:55):
I mean your story, your story. It was a pattern
or or was part of a revealed part of a
pattern of Trump's behavior, and you were one of the
first people to be brave enough to come out and
just say no, I'm not going to sign an NDA,
I'm not going to take five grand and go away.
I'm not going to pretend like Wrappen.
Speaker 2 (20:16):
Can you imagine many.
Speaker 6 (20:17):
Other women who've come out out of the out of
Trump's past now and this pattern of abuse. I mean,
it shocks me how long it's gone on and how
deep the the ugliness of it really is.
Speaker 2 (20:32):
Rick, you are one of the few people who've mentioned
the other women in this whole Epstein thing, this whole
trauma of vaccident in the last seven or eight weeks.
You're the only person that I've listen or heard talk
about the other women there. But you know what the
problem they're adult women and they have careers, and they
(20:55):
speak up. They speak up. They're not the fifteen year
old fallen victim. So that these women, boy, they spoke up,
you know, certainly a dozen incredible women, and then well
what does it count? Twenty four seven, eight seven.
Speaker 6 (21:18):
Twenty seven From what I understand, I could be it
could be plus. I don't I you know, it's it
could be plus or minus. You know, it's I had
a I had a female friend years ago victim of
sexual assault, and and I remember sitting with her after
this and and with with when the cops were there.
(21:40):
You know, oh, the woman said to her. The woman
said to her, the woman cops said to her, you
know the problem with guys like the guy that you
because she had found out there were he was it
was a pattern with this guy of being abusive, and
the woman cop, I'll never forget it. She looked at
my friend and said, I said, the is You're not
(22:01):
the only one. Yeah, she goes, it feels like you're
the only one. But you're not the only one. And
that's why you got to be. You got to come
out and give us this stuff on the record and
all that. Yes, which yes, you know you were on
the record. You were out there saying this is what
he did, this is his behavior. And I think it's
given some of these other women the courage to come
(22:23):
out and say, you know what, I'm not going to
be afraid of his lawyers. I'm not going to be
afraid of these people. I'm just going to do it.
Speaker 2 (22:30):
It's hard, wreck it's hard.
Speaker 6 (22:32):
I know, I know.
Speaker 2 (22:33):
Any woman who comes out, she's going to lose her
job boot right, because women are not believed. The man,
who usually has more money and has more lawyers, can
just first of all, sue her for defamation. And then
what woman has enough money to fight a defamation suit?
Speaker 6 (22:48):
I mean, what woman?
Speaker 2 (22:50):
Nobody? I mean not even rich women have enough money
to do it. It's so expensive, especially when you have
somebody like Trump who literally has hunt his lawyers. So
it is and inevitably you're going to lose your job.
I was fired from mail Boom. You're just going to
lose your job. So that's why women don't speak up.
(23:12):
If they have two children to feed, they cannot speak up.
If it's their line manager on the floor of an
automotive department. If she speaks up about her manager, her
kids go without their dinner. So this is what the
problem is with, you know, and the female cop telling
your friend that that was a good cop.
Speaker 6 (23:33):
She was.
Speaker 1 (23:35):
That was way back.
Speaker 6 (23:36):
That was way back in college. And I will never
forget it. It's almost forty years ago now and I
will never forget it. She's like, there, if he's done
it to you, he's done it to other people. You
got to help us. And yeah, you know, and Trump
had done it to other people. He had, Yes, he
had behaved this way. Yes, yes, And you know it's
(23:57):
one thing. If Trump was just a garden variety adulterous asshole,
that would be one thing.
Speaker 2 (24:05):
Right, you almost made me spit out my tea. Yes,
you almost got me, you all I will looked and
there was my iPhone. I was afraid to spit it
out on my iPhone. Really that that was right. That's
a good one. Wreck if he had just been if he.
Speaker 6 (24:21):
Had just been a guy who was fucking around as
as as you know, many many accounts say that that
was also the case. But there is a through line.
Once you have not one or two or three or
five or ten, but twenty seven or more women who
say an aspect of this was him forcing himself on
(24:41):
me in whatever context. You know when that when that
pattern starts to emerge, and it's important that you, you know,
you you were willing to go out put it all
on the line to tell other women you can't you
you can't if you can't feel like you're you're you're
strong enough, for rich enough, for whatever to do this.
Here's an example.
Speaker 1 (25:02):
I'm going to lead by example.
Speaker 6 (25:03):
So I really think, I really think that's one of
the things that you've done that is really ricorious.
Speaker 2 (25:10):
Rick, Rick, I am an old lady. I had nothing
to lose. I have had a great life. I have
had a great life and I had nothing to lose.
You know, they fired me. Okay, fine, they fired me.
But and I can take the horrible abuse because I'm
an old woman and I don't get two flying figs
(25:31):
what people think. But it's very different for a young
lady of sixty.
Speaker 6 (25:37):
Sure, sure it is a lot.
Speaker 2 (25:40):
Yeah, So that's what that's the horrible problem. That's it
is the horrible problem. He has been accused by woman
after a woman and nobody believes him, and everybody's forgotten it,
and everybody has moved on. It's to me astonishing.
Speaker 13 (26:03):
This is just an important issue. This is something that
should not be swept under the table any longer. This
affects people through their entire life, and it's just unnecessary.
Speaker 1 (26:16):
This is his mo o.
Speaker 13 (26:17):
It has been his mo since he was probably a
teenager or even before. I wasn't the first, I wasn't
the last. It it's just amazing he's gotten away with it.
Speaker 5 (26:29):
It's telling our next generation of women that we don't
care about them. We don't care if they're abused, we
don't care if they have any independence over their bodies.
It's taking us back to another time and throwing us
into a handmaid's tail. It's really as horrifying. It's like
a nightmare.
Speaker 14 (26:47):
I think it's astonishing that we've allowed this to happen,
That we've allowed this man to get into the White
House in the first place, after women did come up
in twenty sixteen, and then you've got more people who've
had people come against them incredibly, like you said, and
now they are basically controlling what we do with our bodies,
and they're telling us what we can do with our bodies,
(27:08):
and we know they don't respect our bodies and they
don't respect us as women. This is a man who
doesn't take no for answer, and that's something we really
need to pay attention.
Speaker 6 (27:18):
To, you know, I think it is. I think it
is one of those things that the political supporters around
(27:43):
him pretend it never happened and all and no, what no,
this is just you just made it all up. It
is the worst. It is the worst, going back to
the worst sort of old that the nineteen twenties, thirties, forties, fifties,
sixties rape defense. Oh she was a nuttererous slut, you know, yeah, yeah, yeah, No.
None of this, none of this I think has has
(28:07):
ever stuck to him, like the like like the case
you brought here, and the and the statements you made
against him, and the Epstein statements that that are out there,
and the and the cover up he's performing on Epstein,
Like he tried to cover this up with you by
(28:27):
making excuses and bullshitty and lying. Oh.
Speaker 1 (28:30):
I never knew.
Speaker 9 (28:33):
But as far as I know, I never met her,
I never touched her.
Speaker 1 (28:39):
I have I would have had no.
Speaker 9 (28:42):
Interest in meeting her in any way, shape or form.
I know you're gonna say it's a terrible thing to say,
but it couldn't have happened. It didn't happen, and she
would not have been the chosen one.
Speaker 6 (28:59):
But but the Epstein stuff is driving him so crazy
because he's covering it up. I mean, what are your
thoughts on the on the on the role of his
friendship with Epstein, and like, what's happening with all this?
Speaker 2 (29:13):
Well, he definitely Jill Hearth who brought the first lawsuit
against him for sexual assault. Later she she had to
drop the case because her husband made her drop the
case so they could make a deal with Donald Trump.
Drives me crazy. But anyway, they were Jill was running
(29:35):
something called the Calendar Girl's beauty contests and these were
young women from acrossing it and they were all Jill,
and six or seven of the calendar girls came to
spend the night at marrillarco at who's a surprise, who
came to help Trump show the calendar girls around Mary Lago.
Speaker 6 (29:58):
Would that be Jeffrey Epstein, Yes.
Speaker 2 (30:00):
It would be his neighbor, and that two of them
took the calendar girls around. Now Jill has uh. I
don't know the young woman's name, but definitely Trump made
a move on her that night and she said, what
do you, uh, Donald, what are you doing? I would
never do anything like on the first state. The next morning,
(30:24):
according to Jill and according to her.
Speaker 15 (30:28):
Her uh her, the according to her complaint, her court complaint,
the next morning, he appeared in the young girl's bedroom
and said, got into bed with her and said, okay,
it's the next day.
Speaker 2 (30:46):
I think she kicked him out of bed. So this
is what was going on with he and Epstein going
around mar Alago. So they were like nine and ten
those two. Yeah, Trump has young girls to his place.
Who shows up Epstein? So yeah, yeah, it.
Speaker 6 (31:05):
It really is. I think in a lot of ways, psychologically,
this Epstein stuff has broken him more than almost anything
else in the last few years, because he is he
hates it. It's on and every day and it's like
finally the guilt of normal human would feel and the
fear of being of being exposed is finally there.
Speaker 1 (31:25):
In a lot of ways, now, he.
Speaker 2 (31:26):
Could have stopped it. He could have stopped Epstein. You understand,
he could have stopped Epsyre's There's no question they were
running together as you wild young man. You know, Tom Kats.
Speaker 6 (31:39):
It is something I heard about in the late nineties
in Palm Beach, like, oh, Jeffrey Epstein and Trump their buddies, Yeah,
and you know it. Yeah, it is one of those
stories that just you know, I don't know how much
we'll ever see it, but I don't know if we'll
get as much of a of a narrative revelation as
you got in the Truckles. But I think it is
(32:01):
something that he fears and loads and hates every day.
But I mean, one thing about this book that I
think is it's not a depressing book, kind of a
great color piece about the characters in this play that
you've this absurd drama you find yourself in, and and
(32:23):
this and these people that are just the people around him.
The like the portraits you do pain of these people.
It's phenomenal how how comic they really are, even when
they're trying to be very serious.
Speaker 2 (32:38):
Yes, well, here's the thing. Alena Habber in the in
deposition was out number one to prove that I'm a slut.
Number two, I'm a dirty slut. Number three, I'm a dirty,
filthy slut. So one of her questions was, e G.
(32:59):
I hate to ask you this that how many people?
How many people have you slept with? Right, and Rick,
it was one of the great moments, because you know what,
I loved talking about I love talking about my lovers.
They were high points of my life. And boy, she
(33:21):
she could not have gotten me on a subject that
I was more delighted to talk about than my lovers.
And I'm sure you would do the same if.
Speaker 6 (33:32):
I've been in your shoes, though, I would have looked
at her straight in the eye and said, before or
after your husband.
Speaker 2 (33:37):
A boomm Oh my god, Oh that is that is
such a great Oh god, I love it. Oh, come on,
I love that.
Speaker 12 (33:52):
Oh.
Speaker 2 (33:52):
I wish we could set I wish we could I
wish I could make an amendment right now to the
deposition to say that that's yeah now.
Speaker 6 (34:00):
But yeah, they you know, it's like it's like there's
an old phrase from Ralph Waldo Emerson. He was describing
Abraham Lincoln's cabinet and during the Civil War, and he
said they were all such strong people because the institution
was the shadow of the man. These people are all
a shadow of Donald Trump, right, They're all they've all
(34:22):
played roles, and they've all adopted these behaviors in trying
to defend his sexual assault and his sexual improprieties. They've
all like adopted becoming little Trumps.
Speaker 2 (34:34):
Yes, that's true, and that's true. Do you know probably
people are going to stop paying their income taxes now
because Trump didn't. You know, people are lying more. I'm
guessing because the President of the United States lies. It's uh,
we're not It's I don't. I think we're going to
get through this. I really do. He's not gonna.
Speaker 6 (34:54):
You know what, I have a I have a great
faith in America's resiliency, and I I know when people
are out there speaking the truth, it gets harder for
the darkness to take over. So well, listen, Egen, I
adore you, as you know. I'm so glad you came
on today. We're gonna have to get this podcast out
(35:14):
in the next couple of days, folks. The book is
not my type. One woman versus the President, and it
is the story of Egene's long running battle with Donald
Trump for justice and for honesty, and it's really terrific. Egen,
thank you again. We'll talk to you soon. Okay, thank you.
Speaker 2 (35:32):
I loved it. See thank You.
Speaker 16 (35:37):
The Lincoln Project Podcast is a Lincoln Project production executive
produced by Whitney Hayes, then How and Joey Wartner.
Speaker 1 (35:43):
Cheney, edited by Riley Maine.
Speaker 16 (35:45):
Hey, folks, if you want to support The Lincoln Project's
work against Donald Trump, Elon Musk, and this Maga craziness,
go to action dot Lincoln Project dot us slash hel LP.
If you'd like to get in touch, or have suggestions
for a guest or a show topic, or just want
to say hey hi, our email is podcast at Lincoln
Project dot us for our MAGA friends.
Speaker 1 (36:04):
Please no more news. Thanks so much. We'll talk to
you again next time, and good luck.
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