June 12, 2025 • 32 mins
In this episode, Jeff Makey dives deep into the critical role of effective onboarding and training in the construction industry, sharing insights from his work with major commercial builders. Discover why simply relying on SOPs isn’t enough, how tailored training programs and learning management systems (LMS) can transform employee success, and the practical steps companies can take to improve consistency, retention, and company culture across job sites. Whether you’re a construction manager, HR leader, or industry professional, this episode is packed with actionable advice to help your team build a stronger foundation for growth and safety.
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Episode Transcript
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Speaker 1 (00:05):
And welcome to the Lumberyard. Today we have a truly
remarkable guest. I want to welcome Jeff Makey. Jeff is
a nationally recognized instructional design expert from let's say employee
training to professional certification as well, and his training programs
and certifications have been recognized by the National Park Service
(00:29):
and the USDA. He has created cooperative training or corporate
training systems that have been in use for over fifteen years.
And in this episode, we're going to discuss how he
has found many large construction companies lack the understanding of
training and onboarding procedures as well. So sit back, tune in,
(00:53):
and get ready for an inspiring conversation with Jeff. Jeff,
Welcome to the show.
Speaker 2 (01:00):
Hey, thanks Jen, it's a pleasure to be invited back again.
Speaker 1 (01:04):
And we were trying to come up with a topic
a couple of weeks ago, and you gave us a
really good example when it comes to onboarding. One national
commercial builder that you were working with and training new hires,
that they were taking their new hires and trying to
train them directly from their SOPs instead of actually having
(01:28):
an onboarding training program, caused you know, major problems in
their offices across the nation. So let's just kind of
like open it up for discussion big picture, Why is
effective onboarding critical to the long term success of employees
in an organization?
Speaker 2 (01:49):
You know, onboarding is probably the most critical training. Everybody
says that it's kind of well known, jen but what
do we do? How seriously are we taking it. We're
seeing the the major movement and streamlining it with software systems,
which is great. It's extremely valuable to do that. It
can provide a lot more consistency with the software systems
(02:11):
and the LMS, the learning management systems. Key term. People
are starting to learn that didn't know LMS learning management systems.
So these are really helpful, but they're only as good
as the information that we put into them, as the
process that we put together. The training program lets the
new hire know that you're concerned about them, that you
(02:33):
want to set them up for success, and also helps
them understand the culture and processes within the company. So
it's absolutely critical having that training program in place and
having those t's crossed and eyes dotted can make all
the difference in having that employee be successful within the company.
(02:55):
What we found with this newest client, Jenna, it was
really interesting. We had several meetings with with this new
client and they have their own training department. I can't
mention their name, but they are a national commercial builder.
They build office buildings, commercial development, and part of their
leadership reached out to me and said, Jeff, people are
(03:17):
making a lot of mistakes even though we train them,
we put them through, we have all these steps. They
go to different training with different managers, and they're still
making mistakes, Like they're asking questions that we went over.
What's happening? So, jenn As, I dove into them, and
I dove into this company. I said, what are you
guys using to train with? And you know, they presented
(03:40):
me with their SOPs, their standard operating procedures, and you know,
I was looking at that and I showed them what
a training outline should look like, and they said, we
don't need that. We have the SOPs. SOPs are critical.
That's your guidebook, right that, those are your steps on
how to get everything through. But there are some points
in that SOP that are frequently being missed by a
(04:00):
lot of people, and there are other things that aren't.
Why what's happening there? What are you diving into how
are you presenting this information? And since they're using different
managers to teach different SOPs, they're losing consistency. So one
manager may really focus on this aspect of the SOP
(04:21):
and another manager may teach it completely differently or just
read it to the new hire right just straight off
freed it to them. We don't really know what's happening there,
so there's a lot of inconsistency coming out. They're getting
different training from different managers, which can lead to confusion, misunderstandings,
or just you know, jen honestly just checking out right
(04:42):
thinking about other things. So what we're seeing is that
companies don't understand this key element to training. If you
have your SOPs, you still have to have a training outline.
That's been really difficult to educate this company. Once we
really broke down that barrier, they hired us, you know,
(05:02):
once we got through that, but it did it took
several meetings for them to understand. Your SOP is not
a training document. It's you know, it's your guidebook. It's
how things are done, but it's not how you teach.
It's not how you train. Like I said, once we
got through to them on that. They were like, you're hired,
sign up, right, We're ready to go. So it's all
about that training outline, and more importantly, it's about the objectives.
(05:25):
Now we talk about objectives all the time, but what
are they? What are what do they mean for training? Well,
you can almost look at this like reverse engineering. What
are the most important elements in the training that I
need to cover? So in your onboarding and onboarding Jen,
we know that there's going to be multiple parts of onboarding, correct,
Like right, I need I need to train them on
(05:48):
this system, I need to train them on this process.
I need to train them on you know, this other process.
So it's broken down into all these components. Well, what's
the most important piece of information of component number one?
And maybe it's three things, Like what is the most important?
So an objective is how we identify the most important pieces.
(06:09):
We can think of an objective as the basis for
our test questions. Now I'm not saying you need to
have a test or onboarding, right you don't, But if
I was going to do a test, what are my
test questions going to be? That's how we come up
with the objectives. An objective should always include action verbs.
So what is an action verb? Again, we're seeing this
(06:31):
major disconnect with companies in general understanding what training is
versus that operating procedure. So an action verb is the
level of proficiency I want out of the new hire
at the end of the training. Do I need them
just to understand it? Do I need them to be
able to analyze it? Or do I need them to
(06:53):
be able to perform a task? Those are what we
call action verbs. You can find these on the internet
under Blooms action verbs. But they're going to clearly lay
out the level of understanding that you need at the
end of the training. So we write that objective surrounding
that action verb, which again is going to be the
(07:15):
basis of all of our test questions. Now, one objective
we may be able to get five or ten test
questions out of, depending on how much detail we need
out of that particular learning objective. Typically in one section
of onboarding we may have three to four objectives. We
typically say in a two hour class four objectives. You
(07:35):
can get way carried away with the objectives. You don't
need to do that. They need to be broad in general,
and again, the basis of what multiple test questions could
be written on. So you start with those objectives and
they're going to identify, Hey, this part of the SOP
is really of the SOP is really important, and we
really need them to be proficient at vetting the subcontractors, right,
(07:57):
ordering the material, recording the hours per project. So we
need those things to be really really important. So we're
going to focus on that within our training outline. Any
questions so far, Jen, I can keep going on.
Speaker 1 (08:11):
This, Yeah, no, I do because I want to. I
when it comes to the actual training itself, what have
you found to be most effective? Is it then just
watching a video? Is it for them doing actually hands
on reading, watching somebody or does it just depend on
(08:31):
what is that actual objective that they're trying to accomplish.
Speaker 2 (08:39):
Yeah, it's going to really depend on the objective and
the topic that we're teaching that you're trying to get across.
In the onboarding. What we've typically found though, is that
any training that lasts over ninety minutes to two hours
gets too long. You start to lose people. So breaking
your training sessions down to that two hour mark, no
(08:59):
more than two hours is going to be the most
beneficial to the new hires. Keep in mind they're nervous
about their new job and they have other duties to do.
If you're going to put them in training for more
than two hours, they're probably going to get nervous about
the other duties they're supposed to be doing. Also, it
just gets to be overload. It's just too much. They
(09:19):
need time to process it, they need time to think
about it. So gauging the time, I think is first
of all the most important. Depending on the training, we
have found that having a variety of media coming at
the participant or the new hire is most important. It
shouldn't be all video, but it shouldn't be all reading either.
(09:41):
You want to break it up. We are the YouTube society, right,
I mean, I love to watch YouTube and I watch
a lot of educational content on YouTube. I'm really big
into adventure motorcycle riding and how those engines work and
working on my bike and riding techniques. And I've got
YouTube channels, right and I watch those all the time.
Those that's a great way to kind of learn how
(10:02):
to integrate your video. It should be short, it should
have lots of movement in it. It shouldn't be one
person sitting there talking the entire time, and maybe in
a two hour training session, I have thirty minutes total
of video, fifteen minute section here, at a fifteen minute
section there. We throw those changes out, a little video here,
a little reading there, a practice exercise here if needed.
(10:24):
Then when we throw that diversity up, we're keeping up
with today's attention span, which jen we know is nil.
You know self included, right, I mean.
Speaker 1 (10:33):
Oh absolutely, we were just talking about it.
Speaker 2 (10:35):
Yeah. Yeah, So breaking that up as much as you can,
having the shorter modules with a variety of content media
that you're presenting is most beneficial. I always recommend stay
away from PowerPoint. Even interactive PowerPoint slideshows are way overused.
A short video clip can be much more successful. Also,
(10:58):
if we're breaking it up up into different media, when
it comes time to change or update that training, I'm
doing it in pieces instead of rebuilding the entire training module.
Speaker 3 (11:10):
Yeah okay, good, So then let's talk more about like
the objectives.
Speaker 1 (11:15):
So then going forward, So with the.
Speaker 2 (11:17):
Objectives, we do want those to be action verb based objectives.
As I said, three to five per two hour training session.
That's your first step that's really going to let you
hammer down what's most important after that, we need that
timed outline. Even in a self study LMS or a
(11:38):
self paced learning management system that the person is working
their way through, that timed outline is critically important. Each
section needs to have a certain amount of time in it.
You say, Jeff, why do I need a tam dot line?
If it's all self paced, I can just write it
down and produce the class. What if I need to
do that in person? Sometime that may happen. You can
(12:01):
pick up that timed outline and stay on task with
every single piece. Also, if you have processes that change,
if you introduce a new SOP, I don't need to
go hunt down different sections of the training outline. If
it's timed already, I can very easily update it without
recreating the document. All training documents are living documents. They're
(12:24):
going to change dramatically over time. You may start out
with one training outline and ten years later it may
be completely different. But you didn't rewrite it all at once.
You said, hey, this process changed, we're going to take
this piece out and replace it. And then two years later,
this process changed, You're going to take this out and
replace it. So that timed skeletal outline allows you the
(12:48):
flexibility to change it as the corporation changes their processes.
Speaker 1 (12:54):
And do you have when it comes to onboarding? Should
it be only a week? Good two weeks? This three
week process? Do you have a general guideline when it
comes to onboarding new employees?
Speaker 2 (13:09):
You know, I think that question is so subjective jen
to the company and the position that you're falling into.
Some positions are going to be more technical and need
a longer onboarding. You know, I've had some jobs, like
in facilities management. I used to manage facilities like campus
settings gen and there's no way I could have been
onboarded to all those systems in a month or two.
(13:31):
I mean, it took me six months to be onboarded
with that job. There's just too much, right, you know,
I had seventy employees, security, housekeeping, maintenance, there were you
know what six or seven different buildings on a forty
acre campus. I mean there's just you know, there's no
way I could be onboarding, onboarded into that company quickly.
(13:52):
Like that was just a long process. So really it
really depends on the position on how long it's going
to take breaking into those modules, even becomes more critical though.
That way, I have something that's consumable that I can digest,
that I can you know, bring back out later on
and regurgitate it in those short time sections. And again,
(14:12):
I think the software programs are really bringing that a
long way. My concern with the LMS software programs is
people are not taking the time to consider the content
that they're putting in it. It's only as good as
the content you put in it, and.
Speaker 3 (14:29):
Right, right, yeah, So when it comes to the training,
how does like just having a good LMS create or impact.
Speaker 1 (14:43):
The company culture and retention rates.
Speaker 2 (14:49):
Onboarding is the most important step for that retention period.
They've got to be bought in. They've just you know,
I've always looked at hiring an employee like a marriage
because because it is sort of right, and you know,
there's gonna be good and bad with that relationship, but
both parties, the company and the employee have to make
(15:10):
a decision to come together. There's gonna be hardship and
there's gonna be celebration, just like any other relationship that
you have. So they're coming in to judge you just
like you're judging them on that onboarding process. So the
more time and care we take with that onboarding process,
the more they will buy in emotionally to the company
(15:34):
and really want to give more to the company. Right,
that's what we call engagement. So it all starts without onboarding.
How good can I get it? One of the things
that I'm a really big proponent of are workbooks instead.
You do have to have these employee manuals, right, you know,
the policies and procedures of the company. And we all
sign those, right, Jen, you've signed those before and.
Speaker 3 (15:56):
Oh yeah, how many of those have you read? Yeah?
Speaker 1 (16:00):
None?
Speaker 2 (16:01):
None. We just sign it, right, and then all of
a sudden, you know, something comes up and HR says, hey,
it was in your employee handbook. Okay, So how do
we get new hires to look at what's most important
in that employee manual? Well, it's easy. We make a workbook.
(16:23):
We make a workbook that goes along with it. Now,
even in a self paced LMS system where they're brooking
through the steps themselves at their own pace, I still
think it's incredically important to have that workbook in front
of them. How do we get them to interact with
the workbook. One of the things we did for a
(16:45):
local company or remodeling company here, they started to branch out.
They had one office. Now they've got two offices, one
here in North Carolina, one in South Carolina. They're opening
up a third office. So how do they get that
consistency within their team across different geographical location. One of
the big problems they were having is people understanding the
meetings that they were to have with the clients and
(17:05):
the content that was taking place in those meetings. So
when we designed their onboarding program for them, we left
the meeting agendas out of the workbook, and as they're
working through the onboarding study the onboarding paces, they get
handed that particular agenda. Just the act of physically holding
(17:26):
that and putting it into their workbook is going to
make it easier for them to recall.
Speaker 3 (17:31):
Jen.
Speaker 2 (17:32):
We know nobody's going to remember everything from onboarding, right.
Speaker 1 (17:34):
I mean no, no, yeah, we're human.
Speaker 2 (17:36):
Yeah, that doesn't happen. They're going to miss what, you know,
fifty percent of it. That's safe to think of, isn't it.
Like yeah, So, but what we do want them to
remember is where to go find it. Did I see that? Oh? Yeah,
I remember, I put that in my workbook so just
the act of physically taking that piece of paper and
(17:57):
putting it in their book will help them recall what
they did, and now they have a way to go
back and find it and review it again. Online is
completely different. Online is a tactile. Remember, learning happens in
multiple ways, you know, seeing, hearing, physically, doing. We want
to try to capture as many of those as possible.
Putting that insert into the workbook captures that they're engaged
(18:19):
with it. Another thing, and I say I use the
term workbook lightly, Jen. You know, we don't have to
have fill in the blanks. I think that's kind of
juvenile for adults and professionals. You know, you don't need that.
It can be as simple as as steps of the sop.
One of the things I do think is critically important though,
(18:40):
is a lot of white space in the workbook. Again,
it doesn't have to be fill in the blank. You know,
you don't need short answer. It can be the steps,
it can be where to look. It's supplemental to the sop.
It's not your sop. But putting all that white space
on the paper encourages folks to write things down. How
many times if you've been to a meeting, been to
(19:02):
a presentation, written something down on a piece of paper,
got up and thrown that piece of paper away. You've
done that, right? Oh?
Speaker 1 (19:13):
Absolutely absolutely? Why or it gets buried down the dusk somewhere.
Speaker 2 (19:17):
Yeah, why did you? Why did you bother to write
it down if you're going to throw the piece of
paper away?
Speaker 1 (19:22):
Mh sure sure. But for me it's it's also a retention.
Speaker 3 (19:28):
You know, if i'm it means that I am engaging
from and listening, and then write it down.
Speaker 1 (19:33):
It helps me stay engaged in a conversation.
Speaker 2 (19:36):
Bam, you just nailed it, Jen, Right, that's exactly the point.
So having something that isn't that they're just not having
to fill out on the screen, but that they're actually right.
There's something magic that happens when we write something down. Yeah, absolutely,
something magic happens. So just encouraging them to do that
a fill in the blank is like juvenile you know,
we want you to the blank. Right. I may remin
(20:00):
some things easier than other things, So the notes I
take could be very different than the notes that you take.
And even if I never look at those notes again,
the act of writing it down, something magic happens. So
again with this workbook. I use that term lightly. We
don't need, you know, questions and answers. We need the
key points that we're trying to get across. With lots
of blank space for them to jot things down. It
(20:22):
doesn't even matter if they go back and look at
it again. Just encouraging them to jot it down is
going to make a huge difference.
Speaker 1 (20:31):
So, then, in your view, what happens when organizations neglect
onboarding and training. We talked about when they do it,
what about when they neglect it?
Speaker 2 (20:40):
You know, That's why we're working with this client based
in Texas right now. They're you know there, they have
offices in every stage and people are failing at their jobs.
And when people fail at their jobs, they feel bad.
You know, if I'm having to call you into my
office and say saying, why didn't you complete these steps?
(21:02):
The employee feels bad. Most employees want to do a
good job, right, the manager feels bad. I don't like
writing up employees or retraining them. So when we neglect
that onboarding process, we're setting up the individual as well
as the company for some sort of failure. Keeping those
(21:23):
employees feeling happy is good training, right, bring them into
my office and having to retrain them is hard on everybody.
It just you know, it leaves you with a bad
taste in your mouth and ultimately will lead to a
bad company culture, regardless of how hard you try to
make it good. If I come to work and I
can't succeed, it succeed at my job even though I'm trying,
(21:45):
that's not my fault. Now, if I'm not trying, it's
absolutely my fault. Right. But if I'm coming in I've
got a good attitude and I'm still failing at all
the steps of my job, there was something wrong with
the onboarding. Eventually I'm going to leave the company.
Speaker 3 (21:59):
Yeah, absolutely, absolutely, Yeah, And that is your negative impact
of that. So let's talk about actually measuring, right, how
do we get metrics into this? So what metrics or
feedback loops should organizations pay really close attention to.
Speaker 2 (22:19):
There's a lot of ways we can get metrics out
of training programs, and one gen is just general performance.
That should be pretty simple, you would think. And again,
this company that we're working with right now, uh, that's
why they called us because their general performance is failing
(22:41):
and they reached out to us and scheduled meetings with us,
So that's your first metrics. How successful is the team?
Is everybody moving? Of course, you know we're gonna have
kurnels gen right, I mean there's always problems, right, But
how successful that they are following and the understanding the
processes As your company grows, that will be really relevant
and you're gonna see it like you don't need special
(23:03):
metrics is to measure that. Another metrics, though, is you
can do tests, you know, testing, you know, but it
definitely has its place and it is definitely going to
give us instant feedback. Is it the most helpful feedback?
(23:25):
It depends. I encourage testing if there is a safety
certification going right, something that I need to be able
to prove that I taught you that skill fall protection,
for instance, I might have practical testing and or written
testing for setting up and using fall protection because I
(23:46):
need documentation that somebody saw you, you proved you demonstrated
that you could do the fall protection. But for an SOP,
I may choose not to do testing because as soon
as I say the world test, how does that make
you feel? Jen, Hey, we're gonna test at the end
of this. Yeah, anxiety and then you're trying to what's
(24:08):
the test question gonna be? What's the answer to the
test instead of freely thinking about the content. So testing
is a way we can get a matrix, it's not
a very good way. Peer to peer training is a
great way to get that matrix. Hey, Jen, you've been
here with us about six months. Can you help on
(24:28):
board Marty? Can you show Marty the systems and get
her started in the LMS and walk her through that. Okay,
now you have ownership because you're helping the company, even
though that's not necessarily your job. Yeah, I'll get Marty
started on that. You watching Marty and your level of
comprehension with helping Marty get started. As another matrix, if
(24:52):
I say, hey, Jen, can you help get Marty started?
Most people want to help. That's just human nature. We
all want to be helpful. And if all of a
sudden you're like, uh, yeah, I'm not really comfortable with that.
Why aren't you comfortable with that?
Speaker 3 (25:08):
Jen?
Speaker 2 (25:08):
Right? Like you know what makes you uncomfortable? And so
that's another way we can gauge that matrix.
Speaker 3 (25:15):
Having like a mentor mentee relationship within an organization.
Speaker 2 (25:21):
Then yeah, also peer to peer. Peer to peer education
and training in general is underutilized. Managers are not unlike parents.
If you're a good manager, you care about your employees
and you want them to succeed because with their success
(25:41):
becomes my success. So we have to talk about a
lot of things with our employees. Some of them are
an sop. Other things maybe guiding them through their professional career,
career advice, career leadership. And sometimes it's like, hey, you know,
you just can't do that at work, just like I
do with my teenage daughter. Hey, this is okay, this
(26:04):
isn't you know. You're not in trouble for this unless
you keep doing it. But I need you to go back.
And so manager's training employees is like me teaching my
daughter to drive. You know, Jen, I was a professional
driving instructor for years, and I cannot teach my daughter
to drive. I can teach anybody else how to drive,
(26:26):
but there's a wall that comes up when I talk
to her about it, right, like instantly, both we both
throw the wall up. So when a manager is constantly
training the employees, you're going to get some of that
parental wall, right. It's peer breaks that down. Another thing
peer to peer leadership can do and peer to peer
(26:47):
training can do. Is the peer knows what the common
problems are. The manager may not. The manager doesn't work
in that sop. The manager doesn't do that task. That's
what the staff do. So I may be trying to
train the staff focusing on this piece of it, but
in reality, this piece is what most people struggle with.
(27:10):
So peer to peer leadership, peer to peer training can
compensate for that. Hey, you know, Marty, I know Jeff
told you. You know that this is a really problem,
but really it's this over here that's more of a problem.
You know, you need to focus more on this, and
that's what you're gonna get. So you'll get engagement, you'll
get ownership leadership out of your staff. You'll get a
(27:33):
matrix of how well do they understand it, how well
are they comfortable with the information, which again goes right
along with comprehension. Even if it's just hey, if you
have questions with the LMS, call this coworker, right, don't
call me, call this co worker. Even if it's just
as simple as that they're doing their self study, they
don't understand something, they have trouble logging in, they have
(27:54):
another peer to call or reach out to that could
be enough. Yeah.
Speaker 1 (27:59):
I think that's a win win. It's a win win
for the new employee and it's a win for that
established employee already because, like you said, who doesn't like
to help?
Speaker 2 (28:08):
Right?
Speaker 1 (28:08):
It makes you feel good at the end of the
day when you can help somebody. Yeah, let's wrap this up.
I can't believe we're already thirty minutes into this recording.
I could talk to you forever, Jeff. But let's say
we have a company, an organization does not have an
onboarding right now they're looking at it. Would you recommend
to them to outsource their onboarding to get all of
(28:31):
their training set up into like an LMS or is
it something do you have to have, like the special
skills to set this up? Have a current employee already
do this? What would you recommend for that organization?
Speaker 2 (28:47):
You know, at the risk of sounding like I'm self promoting,
I really recommend working with a third party on creating
your first onboarding programs. And this is why when I'm
trying to do self improvement, right, I know what I
think is wrong with me, But what I think is
wrong with me may not be what you think is
(29:09):
wrong with me, Jen Right, Like, there's a loss of
self awareness in some situations. So if you're creating your
own onboarding program, you may not realize that there are
holes in your SOPs. You just may not realize that
they're there because this is what you've been doing. And
I found this as an owner growing my business. You know,
(29:30):
I didn't need certain processes, and then when I hired
staffs like, damn, I've got to create a process for
this now because I just did it before myself. Now
I have to have a process. So hiring that third
party to come in and help you, the third party
is gonna flip over every stone. They're gonna look under
every rock, right, they're gonna be flipping furniture around in
the office, not figuratively, not literally. The clients that hire us,
(29:52):
you know, we tell them right up, it's like, hey man,
we're gonna find all of your inconsistencies and it's gonna
be hard. And the last client that we wrote onboarding
programs said, Jeff, we're hiring you for the second program
because we know you're going to look at everything like
you're going to scrutinize us so tightly that if we
(30:13):
don't have a process, or if it's inconsistence, you're going
to discover it and then we can fill that hole. Now,
if you've been in business for a while and you
have your SOPs and all that's ironed out, because over
time it does get ironed out, right, Jen, So if
you have thoseps already in practice, you just need to
train your staff on how to write these outlines. Right,
(30:34):
train your staff on how to write the objectives. That's
what we're doing with the Texas based company. We're not
writing their outlines for them. They have a training staff
already in play. We're going to be teaching them how
to write these outlines. So that's a whole different process.
Their SOPs are tight, you know, they send them to
us like, holy crap, this is amazing. Right, your processes
are solid. You just can't teach it. Let us show
(30:57):
you how to teach it. So if you've never had
onboarding programs before, work with an outside party to get
them started. They're going to go through your stuff. They're
going to scrutinize it. It's going to be painful. If
you have all of that ironed out and your company
is very successful, you have solid SOPs. Bring in a
consultant that specializes in training design and let them teach
(31:18):
your company how to create those training programs. It's going
to make consistency better, it's going to make everything move smoother.
Speaker 1 (31:26):
I couldn't agree with you more. Well, let's go ahead,
let's end it on that. I know that we'll probably
get together in a month or so and do another
recording for the podcast. So with that, Jeff, any last
remarks that you want to make before we end it
from here.
Speaker 2 (31:43):
It's always a pleasure to be on the show with you, Jen,
I really have a good time.
Speaker 1 (31:47):
Awesome. All right, Well, thank you all for watching just
another episode of the Lumberyard, and stay tuned for our
next recording.
Speaker 2 (32:00):
It is
And welcome to the Lumberyard. Today we have a truly
remarkable guest. I want to welcome Jeff Makey. Jeff is
a nationally recognized instructional design expert from let's say employee
training to professional certification as well, and his training programs
and certifications have been recognized by the National Park Service
(00:29):
and the USDA. He has created cooperative training or corporate
training systems that have been in use for over fifteen years.
And in this episode, we're going to discuss how he
has found many large construction companies lack the understanding of
training and onboarding procedures as well. So sit back, tune in,
(00:53):
and get ready for an inspiring conversation with Jeff. Jeff,
Welcome to the show.
Speaker 2 (01:00):
Hey, thanks Jen, it's a pleasure to be invited back again.
Speaker 1 (01:04):
And we were trying to come up with a topic
a couple of weeks ago, and you gave us a
really good example when it comes to onboarding. One national
commercial builder that you were working with and training new hires,
that they were taking their new hires and trying to
train them directly from their SOPs instead of actually having
(01:28):
an onboarding training program, caused you know, major problems in
their offices across the nation. So let's just kind of
like open it up for discussion big picture, Why is
effective onboarding critical to the long term success of employees
in an organization?
Speaker 2 (01:49):
You know, onboarding is probably the most critical training. Everybody
says that it's kind of well known, jen but what
do we do? How seriously are we taking it. We're
seeing the the major movement and streamlining it with software systems,
which is great. It's extremely valuable to do that. It
can provide a lot more consistency with the software systems
(02:11):
and the LMS, the learning management systems. Key term. People
are starting to learn that didn't know LMS learning management systems.
So these are really helpful, but they're only as good
as the information that we put into them, as the
process that we put together. The training program lets the
new hire know that you're concerned about them, that you
(02:33):
want to set them up for success, and also helps
them understand the culture and processes within the company. So
it's absolutely critical having that training program in place and
having those t's crossed and eyes dotted can make all
the difference in having that employee be successful within the company.
(02:55):
What we found with this newest client, Jenna, it was
really interesting. We had several meetings with with this new
client and they have their own training department. I can't
mention their name, but they are a national commercial builder.
They build office buildings, commercial development, and part of their
leadership reached out to me and said, Jeff, people are
(03:17):
making a lot of mistakes even though we train them,
we put them through, we have all these steps. They
go to different training with different managers, and they're still
making mistakes, Like they're asking questions that we went over.
What's happening? So, jenn As, I dove into them, and
I dove into this company. I said, what are you
guys using to train with? And you know, they presented
(03:40):
me with their SOPs, their standard operating procedures, and you know,
I was looking at that and I showed them what
a training outline should look like, and they said, we
don't need that. We have the SOPs. SOPs are critical.
That's your guidebook, right that, those are your steps on
how to get everything through. But there are some points
in that SOP that are frequently being missed by a
(04:00):
lot of people, and there are other things that aren't.
Why what's happening there? What are you diving into how
are you presenting this information? And since they're using different
managers to teach different SOPs, they're losing consistency. So one
manager may really focus on this aspect of the SOP
(04:21):
and another manager may teach it completely differently or just
read it to the new hire right just straight off
freed it to them. We don't really know what's happening there,
so there's a lot of inconsistency coming out. They're getting
different training from different managers, which can lead to confusion, misunderstandings,
or just you know, jen honestly just checking out right
(04:42):
thinking about other things. So what we're seeing is that
companies don't understand this key element to training. If you
have your SOPs, you still have to have a training outline.
That's been really difficult to educate this company. Once we
really broke down that barrier, they hired us, you know,
(05:02):
once we got through that, but it did it took
several meetings for them to understand. Your SOP is not
a training document. It's you know, it's your guidebook. It's
how things are done, but it's not how you teach.
It's not how you train. Like I said, once we
got through to them on that. They were like, you're hired,
sign up, right, We're ready to go. So it's all
about that training outline, and more importantly, it's about the objectives.
(05:25):
Now we talk about objectives all the time, but what
are they? What are what do they mean for training? Well,
you can almost look at this like reverse engineering. What
are the most important elements in the training that I
need to cover? So in your onboarding and onboarding Jen,
we know that there's going to be multiple parts of onboarding, correct,
Like right, I need I need to train them on
(05:48):
this system, I need to train them on this process.
I need to train them on you know, this other process.
So it's broken down into all these components. Well, what's
the most important piece of information of component number one?
And maybe it's three things, Like what is the most important?
So an objective is how we identify the most important pieces.
(06:09):
We can think of an objective as the basis for
our test questions. Now I'm not saying you need to
have a test or onboarding, right you don't, But if
I was going to do a test, what are my
test questions going to be? That's how we come up
with the objectives. An objective should always include action verbs.
So what is an action verb? Again, we're seeing this
(06:31):
major disconnect with companies in general understanding what training is
versus that operating procedure. So an action verb is the
level of proficiency I want out of the new hire
at the end of the training. Do I need them
just to understand it? Do I need them to be
able to analyze it? Or do I need them to
(06:53):
be able to perform a task? Those are what we
call action verbs. You can find these on the internet
under Blooms action verbs. But they're going to clearly lay
out the level of understanding that you need at the
end of the training. So we write that objective surrounding
that action verb, which again is going to be the
(07:15):
basis of all of our test questions. Now, one objective
we may be able to get five or ten test
questions out of, depending on how much detail we need
out of that particular learning objective. Typically in one section
of onboarding we may have three to four objectives. We
typically say in a two hour class four objectives. You
(07:35):
can get way carried away with the objectives. You don't
need to do that. They need to be broad in general,
and again, the basis of what multiple test questions could
be written on. So you start with those objectives and
they're going to identify, Hey, this part of the SOP
is really of the SOP is really important, and we
really need them to be proficient at vetting the subcontractors, right,
(07:57):
ordering the material, recording the hours per project. So we
need those things to be really really important. So we're
going to focus on that within our training outline. Any
questions so far, Jen, I can keep going on.
Speaker 1 (08:11):
This, Yeah, no, I do because I want to. I
when it comes to the actual training itself, what have
you found to be most effective? Is it then just
watching a video? Is it for them doing actually hands
on reading, watching somebody or does it just depend on
(08:31):
what is that actual objective that they're trying to accomplish.
Speaker 2 (08:39):
Yeah, it's going to really depend on the objective and
the topic that we're teaching that you're trying to get across.
In the onboarding. What we've typically found though, is that
any training that lasts over ninety minutes to two hours
gets too long. You start to lose people. So breaking
your training sessions down to that two hour mark, no
(08:59):
more than two hours is going to be the most
beneficial to the new hires. Keep in mind they're nervous
about their new job and they have other duties to do.
If you're going to put them in training for more
than two hours, they're probably going to get nervous about
the other duties they're supposed to be doing. Also, it
just gets to be overload. It's just too much. They
(09:19):
need time to process it, they need time to think
about it. So gauging the time, I think is first
of all the most important. Depending on the training, we
have found that having a variety of media coming at
the participant or the new hire is most important. It
shouldn't be all video, but it shouldn't be all reading either.
(09:41):
You want to break it up. We are the YouTube society, right,
I mean, I love to watch YouTube and I watch
a lot of educational content on YouTube. I'm really big
into adventure motorcycle riding and how those engines work and
working on my bike and riding techniques. And I've got
YouTube channels, right and I watch those all the time.
Those that's a great way to kind of learn how
(10:02):
to integrate your video. It should be short, it should
have lots of movement in it. It shouldn't be one
person sitting there talking the entire time, and maybe in
a two hour training session, I have thirty minutes total
of video, fifteen minute section here, at a fifteen minute
section there. We throw those changes out, a little video here,
a little reading there, a practice exercise here if needed.
(10:24):
Then when we throw that diversity up, we're keeping up
with today's attention span, which jen we know is nil.
You know self included, right, I mean.
Speaker 1 (10:33):
Oh absolutely, we were just talking about it.
Speaker 2 (10:35):
Yeah. Yeah, So breaking that up as much as you can,
having the shorter modules with a variety of content media
that you're presenting is most beneficial. I always recommend stay
away from PowerPoint. Even interactive PowerPoint slideshows are way overused.
A short video clip can be much more successful. Also,
(10:58):
if we're breaking it up up into different media, when
it comes time to change or update that training, I'm
doing it in pieces instead of rebuilding the entire training module.
Speaker 3 (11:10):
Yeah okay, good, So then let's talk more about like
the objectives.
Speaker 1 (11:15):
So then going forward, So with the.
Speaker 2 (11:17):
Objectives, we do want those to be action verb based objectives.
As I said, three to five per two hour training session.
That's your first step that's really going to let you
hammer down what's most important after that, we need that
timed outline. Even in a self study LMS or a
(11:38):
self paced learning management system that the person is working
their way through, that timed outline is critically important. Each
section needs to have a certain amount of time in it.
You say, Jeff, why do I need a tam dot line?
If it's all self paced, I can just write it
down and produce the class. What if I need to
do that in person? Sometime that may happen. You can
(12:01):
pick up that timed outline and stay on task with
every single piece. Also, if you have processes that change,
if you introduce a new SOP, I don't need to
go hunt down different sections of the training outline. If
it's timed already, I can very easily update it without
recreating the document. All training documents are living documents. They're
(12:24):
going to change dramatically over time. You may start out
with one training outline and ten years later it may
be completely different. But you didn't rewrite it all at once.
You said, hey, this process changed, we're going to take
this piece out and replace it. And then two years later,
this process changed, You're going to take this out and
replace it. So that timed skeletal outline allows you the
(12:48):
flexibility to change it as the corporation changes their processes.
Speaker 1 (12:54):
And do you have when it comes to onboarding? Should
it be only a week? Good two weeks? This three
week process? Do you have a general guideline when it
comes to onboarding new employees?
Speaker 2 (13:09):
You know, I think that question is so subjective jen
to the company and the position that you're falling into.
Some positions are going to be more technical and need
a longer onboarding. You know, I've had some jobs, like
in facilities management. I used to manage facilities like campus
settings gen and there's no way I could have been
onboarded to all those systems in a month or two.
(13:31):
I mean, it took me six months to be onboarded
with that job. There's just too much, right, you know,
I had seventy employees, security, housekeeping, maintenance, there were you
know what six or seven different buildings on a forty
acre campus. I mean there's just you know, there's no
way I could be onboarding, onboarded into that company quickly.
(13:52):
Like that was just a long process. So really it
really depends on the position on how long it's going
to take breaking into those modules, even becomes more critical though.
That way, I have something that's consumable that I can digest,
that I can you know, bring back out later on
and regurgitate it in those short time sections. And again,
(14:12):
I think the software programs are really bringing that a
long way. My concern with the LMS software programs is
people are not taking the time to consider the content
that they're putting in it. It's only as good as
the content you put in it, and.
Speaker 3 (14:29):
Right, right, yeah, So when it comes to the training,
how does like just having a good LMS create or impact.
Speaker 1 (14:43):
The company culture and retention rates.
Speaker 2 (14:49):
Onboarding is the most important step for that retention period.
They've got to be bought in. They've just you know,
I've always looked at hiring an employee like a marriage
because because it is sort of right, and you know,
there's gonna be good and bad with that relationship, but
both parties, the company and the employee have to make
(15:10):
a decision to come together. There's gonna be hardship and
there's gonna be celebration, just like any other relationship that
you have. So they're coming in to judge you just
like you're judging them on that onboarding process. So the
more time and care we take with that onboarding process,
the more they will buy in emotionally to the company
(15:34):
and really want to give more to the company. Right,
that's what we call engagement. So it all starts without onboarding.
How good can I get it? One of the things
that I'm a really big proponent of are workbooks instead.
You do have to have these employee manuals, right, you know,
the policies and procedures of the company. And we all
sign those, right, Jen, you've signed those before and.
Speaker 3 (15:56):
Oh yeah, how many of those have you read? Yeah?
Speaker 1 (16:00):
None?
Speaker 2 (16:01):
None. We just sign it, right, and then all of
a sudden, you know, something comes up and HR says, hey,
it was in your employee handbook. Okay, So how do
we get new hires to look at what's most important
in that employee manual? Well, it's easy. We make a workbook.
(16:23):
We make a workbook that goes along with it. Now,
even in a self paced LMS system where they're brooking
through the steps themselves at their own pace, I still
think it's incredically important to have that workbook in front
of them. How do we get them to interact with
the workbook. One of the things we did for a
(16:45):
local company or remodeling company here, they started to branch out.
They had one office. Now they've got two offices, one
here in North Carolina, one in South Carolina. They're opening
up a third office. So how do they get that
consistency within their team across different geographical location. One of
the big problems they were having is people understanding the
meetings that they were to have with the clients and
(17:05):
the content that was taking place in those meetings. So
when we designed their onboarding program for them, we left
the meeting agendas out of the workbook, and as they're
working through the onboarding study the onboarding paces, they get
handed that particular agenda. Just the act of physically holding
(17:26):
that and putting it into their workbook is going to
make it easier for them to recall.
Speaker 3 (17:31):
Jen.
Speaker 2 (17:32):
We know nobody's going to remember everything from onboarding, right.
Speaker 1 (17:34):
I mean no, no, yeah, we're human.
Speaker 2 (17:36):
Yeah, that doesn't happen. They're going to miss what, you know,
fifty percent of it. That's safe to think of, isn't it.
Like yeah, So, but what we do want them to
remember is where to go find it. Did I see that? Oh? Yeah,
I remember, I put that in my workbook so just
the act of physically taking that piece of paper and
(17:57):
putting it in their book will help them recall what
they did, and now they have a way to go
back and find it and review it again. Online is
completely different. Online is a tactile. Remember, learning happens in
multiple ways, you know, seeing, hearing, physically, doing. We want
to try to capture as many of those as possible.
Putting that insert into the workbook captures that they're engaged
(18:19):
with it. Another thing, and I say I use the
term workbook lightly, Jen. You know, we don't have to
have fill in the blanks. I think that's kind of
juvenile for adults and professionals. You know, you don't need that.
It can be as simple as as steps of the sop.
One of the things I do think is critically important though,
(18:40):
is a lot of white space in the workbook. Again,
it doesn't have to be fill in the blank. You know,
you don't need short answer. It can be the steps,
it can be where to look. It's supplemental to the sop.
It's not your sop. But putting all that white space
on the paper encourages folks to write things down. How
many times if you've been to a meeting, been to
(19:02):
a presentation, written something down on a piece of paper,
got up and thrown that piece of paper away. You've
done that, right? Oh?
Speaker 1 (19:13):
Absolutely absolutely? Why or it gets buried down the dusk somewhere.
Speaker 2 (19:17):
Yeah, why did you? Why did you bother to write
it down if you're going to throw the piece of
paper away?
Speaker 1 (19:22):
Mh sure sure. But for me it's it's also a retention.
Speaker 3 (19:28):
You know, if i'm it means that I am engaging
from and listening, and then write it down.
Speaker 1 (19:33):
It helps me stay engaged in a conversation.
Speaker 2 (19:36):
Bam, you just nailed it, Jen, Right, that's exactly the point.
So having something that isn't that they're just not having
to fill out on the screen, but that they're actually right.
There's something magic that happens when we write something down. Yeah, absolutely,
something magic happens. So just encouraging them to do that
a fill in the blank is like juvenile you know,
we want you to the blank. Right. I may remin
(20:00):
some things easier than other things, So the notes I
take could be very different than the notes that you take.
And even if I never look at those notes again,
the act of writing it down, something magic happens. So
again with this workbook. I use that term lightly. We
don't need, you know, questions and answers. We need the
key points that we're trying to get across. With lots
of blank space for them to jot things down. It
(20:22):
doesn't even matter if they go back and look at
it again. Just encouraging them to jot it down is
going to make a huge difference.
Speaker 1 (20:31):
So, then, in your view, what happens when organizations neglect
onboarding and training. We talked about when they do it,
what about when they neglect it?
Speaker 2 (20:40):
You know, That's why we're working with this client based
in Texas right now. They're you know there, they have
offices in every stage and people are failing at their jobs.
And when people fail at their jobs, they feel bad.
You know, if I'm having to call you into my
office and say saying, why didn't you complete these steps?
(21:02):
The employee feels bad. Most employees want to do a
good job, right, the manager feels bad. I don't like
writing up employees or retraining them. So when we neglect
that onboarding process, we're setting up the individual as well
as the company for some sort of failure. Keeping those
(21:23):
employees feeling happy is good training, right, bring them into
my office and having to retrain them is hard on everybody.
It just you know, it leaves you with a bad
taste in your mouth and ultimately will lead to a
bad company culture, regardless of how hard you try to
make it good. If I come to work and I
can't succeed, it succeed at my job even though I'm trying,
(21:45):
that's not my fault. Now, if I'm not trying, it's
absolutely my fault. Right. But if I'm coming in I've
got a good attitude and I'm still failing at all
the steps of my job, there was something wrong with
the onboarding. Eventually I'm going to leave the company.
Speaker 3 (21:59):
Yeah, absolutely, absolutely, Yeah, And that is your negative impact
of that. So let's talk about actually measuring, right, how
do we get metrics into this? So what metrics or
feedback loops should organizations pay really close attention to.
Speaker 2 (22:19):
There's a lot of ways we can get metrics out
of training programs, and one gen is just general performance.
That should be pretty simple, you would think. And again,
this company that we're working with right now, uh, that's
why they called us because their general performance is failing
(22:41):
and they reached out to us and scheduled meetings with us,
So that's your first metrics. How successful is the team?
Is everybody moving? Of course, you know we're gonna have
kurnels gen right, I mean there's always problems, right, But
how successful that they are following and the understanding the
processes As your company grows, that will be really relevant
and you're gonna see it like you don't need special
(23:03):
metrics is to measure that. Another metrics, though, is you
can do tests, you know, testing, you know, but it
definitely has its place and it is definitely going to
give us instant feedback. Is it the most helpful feedback?
(23:25):
It depends. I encourage testing if there is a safety
certification going right, something that I need to be able
to prove that I taught you that skill fall protection,
for instance, I might have practical testing and or written
testing for setting up and using fall protection because I
(23:46):
need documentation that somebody saw you, you proved you demonstrated
that you could do the fall protection. But for an SOP,
I may choose not to do testing because as soon
as I say the world test, how does that make
you feel? Jen, Hey, we're gonna test at the end
of this. Yeah, anxiety and then you're trying to what's
(24:08):
the test question gonna be? What's the answer to the
test instead of freely thinking about the content. So testing
is a way we can get a matrix, it's not
a very good way. Peer to peer training is a
great way to get that matrix. Hey, Jen, you've been
here with us about six months. Can you help on
(24:28):
board Marty? Can you show Marty the systems and get
her started in the LMS and walk her through that. Okay,
now you have ownership because you're helping the company, even
though that's not necessarily your job. Yeah, I'll get Marty
started on that. You watching Marty and your level of
comprehension with helping Marty get started. As another matrix, if
(24:52):
I say, hey, Jen, can you help get Marty started?
Most people want to help. That's just human nature. We
all want to be helpful. And if all of a
sudden you're like, uh, yeah, I'm not really comfortable with that.
Why aren't you comfortable with that?
Speaker 3 (25:08):
Jen?
Speaker 2 (25:08):
Right? Like you know what makes you uncomfortable? And so
that's another way we can gauge that matrix.
Speaker 3 (25:15):
Having like a mentor mentee relationship within an organization.
Speaker 2 (25:21):
Then yeah, also peer to peer. Peer to peer education
and training in general is underutilized. Managers are not unlike parents.
If you're a good manager, you care about your employees
and you want them to succeed because with their success
(25:41):
becomes my success. So we have to talk about a
lot of things with our employees. Some of them are
an sop. Other things maybe guiding them through their professional career,
career advice, career leadership. And sometimes it's like, hey, you know,
you just can't do that at work, just like I
do with my teenage daughter. Hey, this is okay, this
(26:04):
isn't you know. You're not in trouble for this unless
you keep doing it. But I need you to go back.
And so manager's training employees is like me teaching my
daughter to drive. You know, Jen, I was a professional
driving instructor for years, and I cannot teach my daughter
to drive. I can teach anybody else how to drive,
(26:26):
but there's a wall that comes up when I talk
to her about it, right, like instantly, both we both
throw the wall up. So when a manager is constantly
training the employees, you're going to get some of that
parental wall, right. It's peer breaks that down. Another thing
peer to peer leadership can do and peer to peer
(26:47):
training can do. Is the peer knows what the common
problems are. The manager may not. The manager doesn't work
in that sop. The manager doesn't do that task. That's
what the staff do. So I may be trying to
train the staff focusing on this piece of it, but
in reality, this piece is what most people struggle with.
(27:10):
So peer to peer leadership, peer to peer training can
compensate for that. Hey, you know, Marty, I know Jeff
told you. You know that this is a really problem,
but really it's this over here that's more of a problem.
You know, you need to focus more on this, and
that's what you're gonna get. So you'll get engagement, you'll
get ownership leadership out of your staff. You'll get a
(27:33):
matrix of how well do they understand it, how well
are they comfortable with the information, which again goes right
along with comprehension. Even if it's just hey, if you
have questions with the LMS, call this coworker, right, don't
call me, call this co worker. Even if it's just
as simple as that they're doing their self study, they
don't understand something, they have trouble logging in, they have
(27:54):
another peer to call or reach out to that could
be enough. Yeah.
Speaker 1 (27:59):
I think that's a win win. It's a win win
for the new employee and it's a win for that
established employee already because, like you said, who doesn't like
to help?
Speaker 2 (28:08):
Right?
Speaker 1 (28:08):
It makes you feel good at the end of the
day when you can help somebody. Yeah, let's wrap this up.
I can't believe we're already thirty minutes into this recording.
I could talk to you forever, Jeff. But let's say
we have a company, an organization does not have an
onboarding right now they're looking at it. Would you recommend
to them to outsource their onboarding to get all of
(28:31):
their training set up into like an LMS or is
it something do you have to have, like the special
skills to set this up? Have a current employee already
do this? What would you recommend for that organization?
Speaker 2 (28:47):
You know, at the risk of sounding like I'm self promoting,
I really recommend working with a third party on creating
your first onboarding programs. And this is why when I'm
trying to do self improvement, right, I know what I
think is wrong with me, But what I think is
wrong with me may not be what you think is
(29:09):
wrong with me, Jen Right, Like, there's a loss of
self awareness in some situations. So if you're creating your
own onboarding program, you may not realize that there are
holes in your SOPs. You just may not realize that
they're there because this is what you've been doing. And
I found this as an owner growing my business. You know,
(29:30):
I didn't need certain processes, and then when I hired
staffs like, damn, I've got to create a process for
this now because I just did it before myself. Now
I have to have a process. So hiring that third
party to come in and help you, the third party
is gonna flip over every stone. They're gonna look under
every rock, right, they're gonna be flipping furniture around in
the office, not figuratively, not literally. The clients that hire us,
(29:52):
you know, we tell them right up, it's like, hey man,
we're gonna find all of your inconsistencies and it's gonna
be hard. And the last client that we wrote onboarding
programs said, Jeff, we're hiring you for the second program
because we know you're going to look at everything like
you're going to scrutinize us so tightly that if we
(30:13):
don't have a process, or if it's inconsistence, you're going
to discover it and then we can fill that hole. Now,
if you've been in business for a while and you
have your SOPs and all that's ironed out, because over
time it does get ironed out, right, Jen, So if
you have thoseps already in practice, you just need to
train your staff on how to write these outlines. Right,
(30:34):
train your staff on how to write the objectives. That's
what we're doing with the Texas based company. We're not
writing their outlines for them. They have a training staff
already in play. We're going to be teaching them how
to write these outlines. So that's a whole different process.
Their SOPs are tight, you know, they send them to
us like, holy crap, this is amazing. Right, your processes
are solid. You just can't teach it. Let us show
(30:57):
you how to teach it. So if you've never had
onboarding programs before, work with an outside party to get
them started. They're going to go through your stuff. They're
going to scrutinize it. It's going to be painful. If
you have all of that ironed out and your company
is very successful, you have solid SOPs. Bring in a
consultant that specializes in training design and let them teach
(31:18):
your company how to create those training programs. It's going
to make consistency better, it's going to make everything move smoother.
Speaker 1 (31:26):
I couldn't agree with you more. Well, let's go ahead,
let's end it on that. I know that we'll probably
get together in a month or so and do another
recording for the podcast. So with that, Jeff, any last
remarks that you want to make before we end it
from here.
Speaker 2 (31:43):
It's always a pleasure to be on the show with you, Jen,
I really have a good time.
Speaker 1 (31:47):
Awesome. All right, Well, thank you all for watching just
another episode of the Lumberyard, and stay tuned for our
next recording.
Speaker 2 (32:00):
It is
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