August 15, 2025 • 50 mins
"At M2 The Rock, we fully respect the anonymity of all 12-step fellowships. In alignment with their traditions, we do not represent or speak on behalf of any of these groups. Our mission is to share hope, not affiliation."
About M2 THE ROCK - MICHAEL MOLTHAN:
I’m Michael Molthan, host of The M2 The Rock Show—one of the fastest-growing podcasts and shows on self-improvement, mental health, addiction recovery, and spiritual transformation. I’m so grateful you’re here.I started M2 The Rock in 2017 to bring you conversations designed to make you happier, healthier, and more healed. Through raw and unfiltered discussions with experts, celebrities, thought leaders, and athletes, we uncover new perspectives on personal growth, recovery, and overcoming life’s toughest challenges.
My Story:
What sets my journey apart is that there wasn’t just one rock bottom—there were many. From being a successful luxury homebuilder to falling into addiction, homelessness, crime, and eventually 27 mugshots and prison, my life was in absolute chaos.Addiction was my temporary escape from childhood trauma, but it only led to destruction.
It wasn’t until I hit the lowest point imaginable that I finally found true freedom, redemption, and purpose. After an unexpected early release from prison in 2017, I walked 300 miles back to Dallas to turn myself in—only to be miraculously pardoned and told to “pay it forward.”And that’s exactly what I’ve been doing ever since.My MissionI believe that rock bottom is not the end—it’s a stepping stone to something greater.
My goal is to redefine what "rock bottom" means by helping others rebuild their Spirit, Mind, and Body. On M2 The Rock, I speak openly about trauma, addiction, recovery, and the power of transformation. I don’t shy away from topics like:
✅ Trauma & Addiction – Understanding the root causes
✅ Self-Sabotage & Mental Health – Breaking negative cycles
✅ Codependency & Enabling – How relationships impact recovery
✅ 12-Step Programs & Spiritual Healing – Finding true freedom
✅ Religious Trauma & Personal Growth – Healing from past wounds
"Everyone Is An Addict."
Whether it’s substances, work, validation, or negative thinking, we all have something we struggle with.
But recovery is possible, and transformation is real.
📺 Watch my story on I AM SECOND (9-Minute Film): Watch Here
📩 To book me for speaking engagements or collaborations: Email m2@m2therock.com
🔔 Join the Movement. Subscribe to M2 The Rock and start your journey of self-improvement, healing, and purpose.
🔔 Don’t forget to LIKE & SUBSCRIBE for more powerful faith-based content!
🌎 Website: https://m2therock.com/
▶️ YouTube: @MICHAELMOLTHANM2
📸 Instagram: @m2therockshow
Become a supporter of this podcast: https://www.spreaker.com/podcast/the-m2-the-rock-show-michael-molthan--3443849/support.
About M2 THE ROCK - MICHAEL MOLTHAN:
I’m Michael Molthan, host of The M2 The Rock Show—one of the fastest-growing podcasts and shows on self-improvement, mental health, addiction recovery, and spiritual transformation. I’m so grateful you’re here.I started M2 The Rock in 2017 to bring you conversations designed to make you happier, healthier, and more healed. Through raw and unfiltered discussions with experts, celebrities, thought leaders, and athletes, we uncover new perspectives on personal growth, recovery, and overcoming life’s toughest challenges.
My Story:
What sets my journey apart is that there wasn’t just one rock bottom—there were many. From being a successful luxury homebuilder to falling into addiction, homelessness, crime, and eventually 27 mugshots and prison, my life was in absolute chaos.Addiction was my temporary escape from childhood trauma, but it only led to destruction.
It wasn’t until I hit the lowest point imaginable that I finally found true freedom, redemption, and purpose. After an unexpected early release from prison in 2017, I walked 300 miles back to Dallas to turn myself in—only to be miraculously pardoned and told to “pay it forward.”And that’s exactly what I’ve been doing ever since.My MissionI believe that rock bottom is not the end—it’s a stepping stone to something greater.
My goal is to redefine what "rock bottom" means by helping others rebuild their Spirit, Mind, and Body. On M2 The Rock, I speak openly about trauma, addiction, recovery, and the power of transformation. I don’t shy away from topics like:
✅ Trauma & Addiction – Understanding the root causes
✅ Self-Sabotage & Mental Health – Breaking negative cycles
✅ Codependency & Enabling – How relationships impact recovery
✅ 12-Step Programs & Spiritual Healing – Finding true freedom
✅ Religious Trauma & Personal Growth – Healing from past wounds
"Everyone Is An Addict."
Whether it’s substances, work, validation, or negative thinking, we all have something we struggle with.
But recovery is possible, and transformation is real.
📺 Watch my story on I AM SECOND (9-Minute Film): Watch Here
📩 To book me for speaking engagements or collaborations: Email m2@m2therock.com
🔔 Join the Movement. Subscribe to M2 The Rock and start your journey of self-improvement, healing, and purpose.
🔔 Don’t forget to LIKE & SUBSCRIBE for more powerful faith-based content!
🌎 Website: https://m2therock.com/
▶️ YouTube: @MICHAELMOLTHANM2
📸 Instagram: @m2therockshow
Become a supporter of this podcast: https://www.spreaker.com/podcast/the-m2-the-rock-show-michael-molthan--3443849/support.
Mark as Played
Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:00):
Practicing, recovery principles, and relationships. And it's broken up into
four distinct sections community, friends and family, intimate relationships, and
work relationships. I want to read a couple of pieces
from conference approved literature to get us kind of started
(00:22):
and in the right mood here. This group definitely is,
definitely is very, very concerned with the recovery process. That's
as it's outlined in the Big Book for obvious reasons.
Speaker 2 (00:38):
But I want to read.
Speaker 1 (00:39):
I want to read a couple of things, and these
were all written by Bill Wilson, co founder of Alcoholic Exnonymous.
This is from a pamphlet calls problems other than alcohol.
Speaker 2 (00:53):
Sobriety.
Speaker 1 (00:54):
Freedom from alcohol through the teaching and practice of the
Twelve Steps is the sole purpose of an AA group.
I love that that tells us what our purposes as
a group. It's the teaching and practice of the Twelve Steps.
It's it's about us learning and applying the steps to
our lives, and then showing other people how to learn
(01:18):
and apply.
Speaker 2 (01:19):
The steps to our lives.
Speaker 1 (01:21):
Now, you know, I got sober in North Jersey a
long time ago, and a lot of the meetings I
went to were what you you would term oral tradition,
which was basically you would you would have wisdom teachings
that were passed down from sponsor to sponse over the
course of time in the meetings, and usually Harvey Gerbil
(01:44):
Feather with like twenty three years would be the guy
who you know had all the great wisdom teachings, the
great one liners, and you know you you'd go to
the meetings and you'd hear these these distinctly wonderful pieces
of wisdom. But there wasn't really a lot going on
as far as working working a recovery program from the book.
(02:06):
And in the nineties, in the nineties that changed, and
now there you can't shake a stick without finding a
group that's uh, that's very concerned with the twelve steps.
Speaker 2 (02:16):
And that's a good thing because.
Speaker 1 (02:19):
Now you know there's there's a there's more more awareness,
I think where it concerns the recovery process. This is
from page one seventy four in Tradition nine in the
Step book, and it says here, unless each AA member follows,
(02:39):
to the best of his ability or suggested twelve steps
to recovery, he almost certainly signs his own death warrant.
Speaker 2 (02:46):
That's a very very.
Speaker 1 (02:47):
Strong language as far as practicing the steps is concerned. Now,
you know, I don't know about anybody else in here,
but I've been around for a while since the late eighties,
and what I've seen my experience with what I've seen
is the people who become enthusiastic about consistent meeting attendance,
(03:10):
the people that become enthusiastic about working a recovery program
with an experienced sponsor, an experienced spiritual advisor. And then
those people who try to carry that message in whatever
way they're best suited. Those are the people that are
still that are still around and have really good qualities
of life.
Speaker 2 (03:30):
I'm not talking about the people with.
Speaker 1 (03:32):
A lot of years and they're they're cranky all the time,
you know, those people that are always.
Speaker 2 (03:36):
Cranky for one reason.
Speaker 1 (03:37):
Or I'm talking about the people who really are happy, joyous,
and free and who insist upon enjoying life. Those you
just find a high percentage of those are people who've
paid attention to.
Speaker 2 (03:52):
The recovery process.
Speaker 1 (03:53):
So here is this is from the forward of the
twelve and twelve says a twelve steps are a group
of principles spiritual in their nature, which if practiced as
a way of life, can expel the obsession to drink
and enable the sufferer to become happily and usefully whole.
(04:14):
This is all, This is all very good news. I
want to be happy, happily and usefully whole. If you
knew me, say back in the last two or thre
three years of my drinking, I was anything but useful
and anything.
Speaker 2 (04:31):
But happy I was.
Speaker 1 (04:33):
I was more or less psychotic and not the type
of person you wanted any anywhere near your home, you know.
Speaker 2 (04:41):
I remember the.
Speaker 1 (04:42):
First time I was invited over to my sponsor's house
with about six months. It was the first time somebody
had actually invited me over to their home. And I'm like,
you want me to come over to your house?
Speaker 2 (04:53):
I was like blown.
Speaker 1 (04:54):
Away, because you know, my invitations had had run out
many many years ago.
Speaker 2 (05:01):
I would just I would do you know, I would
do crazy things.
Speaker 1 (05:04):
I remember one of the last parties I went to
the the person that owned.
Speaker 2 (05:09):
The house came home early and threw us all out.
So very indignantly.
Speaker 1 (05:15):
I drove my car around his front lawn, running over
all his shrubberies, yelling out, the yelling out out the
window of what I thought of this particular individual. You know,
you don't get invited back when you run over shrubberies. Anyway,
this particular workshop is about relationships, and you know what
(05:35):
really else is there? I mean, when we're when we're
forced to practice a spiritual way of life or face
alcoholic destruction, we need to start to come to terms
with how we conduct our relationships. Some of my relationship
skills back when I was drinking was hollering and threatening.
(05:59):
Those were two of my skills. Fight or flight. Anybody
relate to that, like you either you either avoid completely
a situation or beat the crap out of it, you know,
one or the other.
Speaker 2 (06:14):
I mean, I really had so few skills.
Speaker 1 (06:18):
I I came to in recovery as a bad electrician, That's.
Speaker 2 (06:23):
What I was.
Speaker 1 (06:24):
I mean, I come from a family of really, really
intelligent people. My brother and sister are both college professor PhDs.
My mother and father were both Phi beta kappa from
really great schools, you know, masters plus thirties degrees, all
educators and just way too smart for.
Speaker 2 (06:42):
Their own good. And here I come along, and.
Speaker 1 (06:45):
I graduate the second stupidest kid in the high school class, seriously,
And I went to I went to the University of
South Florida for three years and got six credits. You know,
that's that's like Dunesbery.
Speaker 2 (06:59):
Esque, you know what I mean.
Speaker 1 (07:00):
It's like you really have to work hard it dropping
and withdrawing and you know, taking things over and dropping them. So,
you know, I I just couldn't deal. It was really
a lack of dealage.
Speaker 2 (07:17):
You know. When I'd get up in.
Speaker 1 (07:19):
The morning and the choice would face me whether to
roll a big doobie or get motivated and go off
to economics, it was an easy choice way too often,
you know what I mean. And I would sit around
the house watching love Boat reruns, watching watching Gopher fall
(07:40):
in love.
Speaker 2 (07:40):
You know. Then my wife had come home and say,
what'd you do all day? Nothing? You know, it just
it just wasn't working.
Speaker 1 (07:50):
So, I mean, every single relationship in my life was
destroyed by the time by the time I got into AA,
I'd lost a family, I'd lost my self respect, I'd
lost countless friends because I had a lot of friends
in high school and college.
Speaker 2 (08:08):
I'd burned those bridges.
Speaker 1 (08:10):
I'd had like thirteen jobs in ten years. I could
never I could never deal with anything for.
Speaker 2 (08:16):
Any long period of time.
Speaker 1 (08:18):
You know I was a good starter. Anybody in here
a good starter. You know, you come out of the
gate like a pro. But somewhere along the line, your
enthusiasm or you know, you would change your mind to
the importance of whatever the heck you were doing, like working,
you know, it's like not that important, And I'd shoot
(08:40):
myself in the foot time and time again.
Speaker 2 (08:43):
I'm gonna read from page eighty.
Speaker 1 (08:45):
The Step book is coming up time and time again.
Speaker 2 (08:47):
I hope the Big Book police aren't going to arrest
me after the meeting. But this is one of the great.
Speaker 1 (08:53):
Lines in the twelve and twelve. This is in step eight.
It says, since defective relationships with other human beings have
nearly always been the immediate cause of our woes, including
our alcoholism, no field of investigation could yield more satisfying
and valuable rewards than this one calm thought for reflection
(09:16):
upon personal relations can deepen our insight. So again, when
we start, when we start working a program of recovery,
we come to terms with our alcoholism in step one,
and hopefully someone with some experiences explaining to us exactly
what alcoholism is. Because you can be you can be
(09:38):
in AA with twenty years and not have a clue
what the first step is.
Speaker 2 (09:42):
That's not unusual.
Speaker 1 (09:45):
So hopefully you have you have a sponsor, or a
spiritual advisor, or a group who can adequately explain.
Speaker 2 (09:55):
What step one.
Speaker 1 (09:56):
Is, what being an alcoholic is, what powerlessness means, what
unmanageability means. So in the first step, you come to
terms with that. In the second step, you come to
believe that there's hope, there's a solution, there's a power
greater than yourself, because lack of power becomes your dilemma
when you understand step one.
Speaker 2 (10:18):
So power is.
Speaker 1 (10:20):
A solution that you, hopefully you start to come to
believe in in step two.
Speaker 2 (10:26):
In step three, you make the decision to embrace that
power to.
Speaker 1 (10:32):
Participate in the things in Alcoholics anonymous that many many
people have the experience of participating and that led them
to an effective relationship with the power greater than themselves
that can restore them to sanity with where it concerns alcohol,
And there's some further good news, restore your quality of life,
(10:57):
handle your problems, show you how to handle your albums.
Speaker 2 (11:02):
So those are the first three steps.
Speaker 1 (11:03):
So okay, I'm in, I'm in I've done all three steps.
I'm ready to go. What do you want me to do?
The book asks us to inventory our resentments.
Speaker 2 (11:19):
And again, one of the things.
Speaker 1 (11:21):
That I usually tell people that i'm working with, or
I usually cover in workshops where I think that there's
people who haven't gone through the steps, is.
Speaker 2 (11:29):
Don't make don't come.
Speaker 1 (11:32):
To a conclusion in your mind what the steps are
all about before you experience them. The steps are meant
to be understood experientially, not intellectually. That's a big mistake
I made. They handed me the book Alcoholics Anonymous and Rehab,
and I read it because that's what I did.
Speaker 2 (11:49):
I read everything.
Speaker 1 (11:50):
I usually have to read it again because I'd read
it in a blackout, but being in rehab, I wasn't
in a blackout. So I read it and Okay, I
got it. I understand, but understand it's not lack of
understanding is not our dilemma. Lack of power is our dilemma.
Speaker 2 (12:07):
So again, this book is meant to.
Speaker 1 (12:11):
It's it's It was written with the understanding that you
would do the exercises.
Speaker 2 (12:16):
Now, that's a problem usually with bothout. Most alcoholics who in.
Speaker 1 (12:20):
Here when they were in school would read the chapter,
but would not do the study exercises at the end.
You know I never did those stupid best ye know,
I'm like at it, I gotta work, I gotta work.
I already know. I know, I already know I don't
need more work, and that would If you have that
(12:40):
attitude when you're when you're approaching our literature, you're going
to be in trouble because the recovery process is very
much hinged on what you do, not on what you know.
Speaker 2 (12:53):
So they asked us to do a few things.
Speaker 1 (12:57):
They ask us to start inventorying our resentments.
Speaker 2 (13:01):
Now, I don't know about anybody else.
Speaker 1 (13:02):
Every once in a while I get somebody who doesn't
have any resentments.
Speaker 2 (13:06):
I don't have any resentments.
Speaker 1 (13:08):
Oh so we could invite the police over right now
for T. How about the irs or the ex wife
or you know, the guy who beat you up.
Speaker 2 (13:16):
In fourth grade? We'll have them all over for T.
Speaker 1 (13:19):
I mean, you know, please, if you're an alcoholic you
have resentments, we here's what an.
Speaker 2 (13:28):
Alcoholic will do.
Speaker 1 (13:30):
It's inconvenient for it to be our problem, you know
what I'm saying. The the resistance we get with people,
the turbulence we have with relationships, it's inconvenient for that
to be our fault. So we're pre programmed to take
the other person's inventory and list all of their defects
(13:53):
of character and why there's such scumbags. And we get
very very good at that. You know, we've got we've
got scumbag categories that we can place people in.
Speaker 2 (14:04):
You know, this person is such and.
Speaker 1 (14:05):
Such a scumbag, and this person is such and such
a scumbag. And because because it's inconvenient for it to
be our fault. And I remember probably my first step
meeting that they they read the spiritual axiom. I was
convinced that was a typo.
Speaker 2 (14:24):
You know.
Speaker 1 (14:26):
That they can't mean what they say. That there's something
wrong with me every time. That's not possible. Uh. You know,
I was so programmed to concentrate on the other person
that my perspective was wrong. You know, what a miracle is.
A miracle is a shift in perception. And they say
(14:49):
that there are a lot of miracles in AA, and
that's absolutely true, because there's a ton of shifts in perception.
You know, I had to start changing my mind, and
at first that was like monumental Chris is about to
change his mind, alert the press.
Speaker 2 (15:08):
You know, he's changing his mind.
Speaker 1 (15:11):
I had to start to become open minded.
Speaker 2 (15:13):
And the fourth.
Speaker 1 (15:14):
Step is a beautiful thing for that, because you get
to column number four putting out of our minds the
wrongs we have done others, we resolutely looked at our
own faults, and all of a sudden, I have to
look at my part in it now. In the early days,
(15:35):
it was difficult for me really to see my part accurately.
But after doing after writing as much inventory as I've written,
I can very quickly go to the fourth column, and
I can very very quickly see how I participated.
Speaker 2 (15:48):
In the event. Now. It's usually because I've been around
a while.
Speaker 1 (15:53):
I usually don't attack like I used to. I'm not
like an attacker, but there are subtle ways that I
can kind of deviously set people up. You know, in
work relationships or or with family relationships, there's there's manipulation
techniques that go below the horizon. You know what I'm saying.
(16:16):
You don't really see them as accurately, and and it
ends up causing a lot of turbulence in the relationship.
Speaker 2 (16:22):
So when I'm in.
Speaker 1 (16:23):
The fourth in the fourth column today, I get to
look at where was I dishonest?
Speaker 2 (16:28):
Where was I self seeking?
Speaker 1 (16:29):
Which I look at self seeking as what I want
that I don't have, and I look at selfishness as
what I have that I don't want you to get?
Speaker 2 (16:40):
Uh?
Speaker 1 (16:40):
And where am I frightened? What am I frightened of?
Speaker 2 (16:43):
What? You know? What? What instinct or ambition is threatened? What?
Speaker 1 (16:46):
What am I afraid I'm not going to get her?
Am I afraid I'm going to lose? And why do
I act that way in the relationship with you?
Speaker 2 (16:55):
So over the years.
Speaker 1 (16:57):
Writing all that inventory, I've become much better at having
relationships with people.
Speaker 2 (17:02):
Now. You know, there are people that are really close
to me that might argue that point a little bit.
Speaker 1 (17:10):
I'm certainly certainly nowhere near perfect. I've got flaws galore,
But you know, I was like a tornado blasting my
way through people's lives when I was drinking, And it's
really not that way anymore.
Speaker 2 (17:24):
There. I can actually be a positive.
Speaker 1 (17:26):
Influence every once in a while now, So it really
is on the other end of the spectrum. Another area
of the inventory. They asked me to look at his fears. Now,
believe it or not, fears play a big part in
my relationship with you. I'll give you a couple of
for instances. One of the ones back when I was
(17:48):
drinking in early recovery, I had a fear of confrontation
because of the fight or flight, Like if somebody confronted me,
I was afraid I would just have to go nuclear
on them and I'd end up in jail or something,
you know, or beat up or you know whatever. I remember,
I'll give you for instance, I'm sober, maybe six months
(18:10):
maybe less, and I'm a I'm a crew chief for
an electrical contractor. I'm the foreman, and I have.
Speaker 2 (18:16):
Four or five guys that work for me.
Speaker 1 (18:18):
And because my boss was a drunk, just a killer drunk,
you'd show up at his house and he'd like open
up the window from his bedroombody to go, oh go
thegil cut his house work, and then he'd close close
the window. And what he was supposed to do was
he was supposed to make sure there was enough supplies
in the shop and around where where we could grab
(18:40):
the supplies for the jobs. If he could pull that
off in a day, that'd be fine. I did, like
everything else for this guy. I kept this business. Everything
I did. I did everything but signing the checks. But anyway,
this one day, he shows up on a job, which
was unusual, and I'm not there because because there wasn't
the material that we needed for the job, had to
go to the supply house. And because I'm not there,
(19:02):
I come back and he's annoyed that I wasn't on
the job and my guys.
Speaker 2 (19:06):
Were like free roaming.
Speaker 1 (19:08):
So he starts yelling at me, good damn it, and
in front of my peers, you know, in front of
my men, he's.
Speaker 2 (19:17):
Like swearing at me and denigrating me.
Speaker 1 (19:20):
You know, he's casting aspersions on my my my professional attitude.
And I really got mad. I kept my mouth shut.
I didn't freak out, but I had to pay a
visit to my sponsor that night, and I said, Phil,
I'm gonna blow up his trucks. I've made up my mind.
(19:42):
I know how to do it. You use cock stimbodrome, fuel,
and chlorine.
Speaker 2 (19:46):
You know.
Speaker 1 (19:47):
I came into recovery with like like.
Speaker 2 (19:50):
Bomb making skills, you know, so so I'm gonna blow
up his trucks.
Speaker 1 (19:56):
And he goes, Chris, No, Chris, here's what you're gonna do.
You're gonna go there tomorrow morning, and you're gonna see
him first thing, and you're gonna say, Anthony, I would
like a word with you in private. Now I'm looking
at him like he's insane. But but the problem was,
he had like an uninterrupted string of being right, you
(20:19):
know what I mean, Like he was on a roll,
like every time he called something, he was right. So
I had to listen to him because of this this
adberrant series of being correct. So he goes when you
get him alone, say Anthony, I didn't really appreciate the
way you talk to me in front of the crew
(20:39):
the other day, and I wish that anytime in the
future that you have a problem with me, you'll take
me off to the side.
Speaker 2 (20:47):
I'm like, what I liked the blowing up the van thing? Better?
Are you crazy?
Speaker 1 (20:55):
He's gonna least gonna he's gonna think I'm an idiot.
But you know, I did it because I was I
was willing to go to go to Phil's links and
I did that. I go Anthony, Uh, I'd like, where
were you in private? And I remember saying it to
him like and and after I said it to me,
looked at me like with this crazy look. And he goes, Okay,
(21:20):
God damn it. My sponsor was right. Again, you know,
I'm never gonna tell I'm never gonna be able to
tell him.
Speaker 2 (21:27):
I told you so. So uh So, anyway, you know.
Speaker 1 (21:30):
That was that was how you know that was I
was gonna blow the guy's truck up. That was my
relationship skill back back then, you know, and again you know,
things are better, things are better, But there, you know
a lot of times it was fear, really that was.
Speaker 2 (21:47):
That was. I was afraid of looking bad.
Speaker 1 (21:50):
God forbid my guys like think that I'm you know,
I'm not cool or something.
Speaker 2 (21:56):
I mean, that was like the worst thing that could
have happened to me.
Speaker 1 (22:00):
So so fear is tied in so much with the
way I react in relationships.
Speaker 2 (22:05):
Now, I had a had I had.
Speaker 1 (22:09):
An experience just recently with work that's kind of worked
its way out. But what it was was, I have
a job. I run a business account and it's it's
subject to the authority of a board of directors. Now,
there was a board of directors election and they elected
two or three new board members who who I didn't
(22:31):
have a relationship with. And one guy came in and
he had a buddy who does what I do, and
he wanted this buddy to have my job, so he
came right out of the gate after me, like you
wouldn't believe, Like it came out of nowhere all of
a sudden, you know. I mean, every single thing I'm
doing is being put under.
Speaker 2 (22:52):
A microscope, and I'm like, what is going on?
Speaker 1 (22:55):
And it just so happens that that I found this
out in a bizarre way. A friend of mine down
in Lakewood was in a congresation at a professional conference
where the guy who was gonna replace me was bragging
that he was, you know, they want me.
Speaker 2 (23:14):
Back in this account. The street ex out or ruh,
and he calls me up.
Speaker 1 (23:17):
He goes, Chris, are you hiring somebody I got know?
He goes, well, somebody's coming up to South Playfield to
take over your account.
Speaker 2 (23:24):
I'm like, what you know?
Speaker 1 (23:26):
So I figured this out because uh, I'm still very devious,
you know, I'm still very still very you know, dope
fiend strategic, you know what I mean, Like you never
lose those edges, like to be able to read people.
Speaker 2 (23:40):
You know, and stuff like that.
Speaker 1 (23:41):
So so I figure out what's going on. That doesn't
mean I can really do anything. But this guy, this
guy is trying to talk all of the people that
I report to into getting rid of me because he's
got a buddy, he's got a drinking buddy that he
can manipulate. And uh, you know, so for like a
month and a half, I'm under attack, and I gotta
(24:04):
tell you, I had a lot of fear about it. Uh,
fear of economic insecurity, fear of uh you know, fear
of confrontation.
Speaker 2 (24:12):
There was a lot of fears.
Speaker 1 (24:13):
But I was able to handle myself professionally and not
react in a way where it would require me to
make direct amends to like the entire board or something.
Speaker 2 (24:24):
You know, that definitely would have happened.
Speaker 1 (24:26):
And I didn't even think once of blowing up this
guy's truck. So uh so there's a lot of positive.
Speaker 2 (24:33):
Movement in uh in my life.
Speaker 1 (24:36):
Uh, practicing practice, practicing these principles. Now there's another inventory
in the fourth step.
Speaker 2 (24:43):
It's uh it's sex harms.
Speaker 1 (24:46):
Inventory harms to others, emphasis on sex.
Speaker 2 (24:51):
Now, Uh it's it.
Speaker 1 (24:52):
Says, I, if you're alcoholic, you your sex life needs
an overhauling.
Speaker 2 (24:57):
This is what it said, you know.
Speaker 1 (24:58):
So, so uh, if you're one of those people that
thinks everything's going pretty good in that area. The book
says you need to overhaul it, not tune it up.
Speaker 2 (25:09):
You know what I mean. And I didn't argue.
Speaker 1 (25:12):
I wasn't one of the people that really argued too
much with this because the last girlfriend I had when
I was drinking was, honest to god, a Harley Hell
Angel old lady from Oakland. Okay, I mean a Harley
Hell Angel Old lady. I'm not talking about somebody that
liked bikers. I mean she was a Hell's Angel Old
lady from the Oakland chapter. And I met her in
(25:34):
this prison pen pal thing that I was doing. And listen,
if you're new, if you're new, please, I'm not recommending
that as a dating tool.
Speaker 2 (25:46):
It didn't.
Speaker 1 (25:47):
I had a bad, real bad experience with that. It
started with our first date where she owed deed in
Penn Station and then.
Speaker 2 (25:56):
Just went down hill, you know what I mean.
Speaker 1 (25:58):
But anyway, anyway, oh man, I brought her home to
live with me and Mom.
Speaker 2 (26:05):
Can you imagine?
Speaker 1 (26:08):
Do I need to tell you they didn't get along?
Speaker 2 (26:11):
Oh my god.
Speaker 1 (26:12):
She she wanted to go around armed in Basking Ridge.
Speaker 2 (26:15):
She wanted to go around armed. Oh this, you know, in.
Speaker 1 (26:20):
Basking Ridge, you know, yeah, I guess you do need
a handgun.
Speaker 2 (26:24):
In Basketing Ridge, there was somebody.
Speaker 1 (26:26):
That walked the dog without a leash here two years ago.
Speaker 2 (26:29):
You know, you gotta protect yourself. This one time in
the store.
Speaker 1 (26:34):
I don't know if anybody's familiar basketwa If it's a
store restaurant, it's like real, real, you know, highbrow type
of restaurant. I take her up there for for a drink,
and we're sitting in there and I happened to mention.
I pointed to a waitress and I said, yeah, that
that waitress wanted to go out with me, but she
blew me off three times. I don't know even why
why I said that, you know, And it's okay, let's go,
(26:57):
and we go out to the car and she goes,
hold on a minute, I forgot my purse. And she
goes back and she drags this waitress off of a
barstool and beats the ever loving.
Speaker 2 (27:10):
Cramp out of her.
Speaker 1 (27:11):
In the store restaurant, people were so shocked.
Speaker 2 (27:18):
No one even did anything.
Speaker 1 (27:20):
They just stood there like ah, nobody even trying to
break it up.
Speaker 2 (27:24):
And she comes running out of the place.
Speaker 1 (27:26):
You know, going start the car, we gotta get out.
Speaker 2 (27:28):
Like what what? Let just beat the hell out of
that girl? It disrespected you. I'm like what that's the store?
You know?
Speaker 1 (27:38):
So did I need an overhauling?
Speaker 2 (27:43):
You know what I mean? And I I remember, I remember, Okay,
so I'm sober.
Speaker 1 (27:49):
Now I'm sober a couple of months and uh this this,
Uh I guess she was kind of mochus.
Speaker 2 (27:57):
This, this very attractive.
Speaker 1 (27:59):
Young lady started to make what at least I interpreted
was kind of passes at me, like, you know what
meeting are you're going to tomorrow night? You know, maybe
we can, maybe we can have a couple. So I
go back to my sponsor, Phil, Phil. You know, there's
this girl here. I want to go to some different
meetings because she wants me to go over the Oh
you want to Oh you want to get hooked up
with a woman, Chris, Is that what you want to do?
Speaker 2 (28:21):
Oh? That would be a good idea. Oh, that would
be a good idea. He goes.
Speaker 1 (28:25):
Relationship stands for a really exciting love affair turns into
outrageous nightmare. Sobriety hangs in balance. That's what relationship spells,
you know, and he knew that.
Speaker 2 (28:37):
So uh so he goes, I don't really recommend.
Speaker 1 (28:40):
That, Chris, and let me let me, let me emphasize it.
Speaker 2 (28:45):
Like this picture.
Speaker 1 (28:47):
Picture a gymnasium filled with women, and somewhere in that
gymnasium is an axe murderous.
Speaker 2 (28:54):
Here's what the cops would do.
Speaker 1 (28:56):
They would set you loose in there, and as soon
as you became attracted to somebody, they throw the cuffs
on her. And I'm like, I'm like looking at him, like, no,
you don't understand, you don't understand me.
Speaker 2 (29:10):
Well he unders he understood me. All right, Oh my god.
Speaker 1 (29:15):
So an overhaul and can can take can take a
couple of years. Uh, you know, to to be to
be at a point where you can you can pick
a healthy relationship instead of something that's really exciting, you know,
Like I'm working with this, I'm working with this one person.
Speaker 2 (29:33):
Uh who uh? Who makes bad choices? I mean as
far as partnering.
Speaker 1 (29:40):
Up, is there anybody in here that makes bad choices
every once in a while partnering up or or has
experience making bad choices partnering Yuh, Well, there's one individual.
Just time and time and time again, it's just an
absolute outrageous nightmare of a relationship. So I said to her,
I go listen, how about this. I'll be in charge
(30:03):
of who you date from now on.
Speaker 2 (30:05):
I mean, it's got to be better than than the
people you're picking.
Speaker 1 (30:09):
You know, it's got to be better than the websites
you're going to.
Speaker 2 (30:13):
I mean, oh, my god. So you know, a lot of.
Speaker 1 (30:19):
Times we approach relationships like we approached alcohol. We approach
relationships like we approach drugs. That person will make me
feel better, instead of looking at relationships in a healthy way,
which is, you know, could that relationship be rewarding on
(30:39):
a number of different levels except for you know.
Speaker 2 (30:43):
Passion wise, you know.
Speaker 1 (30:45):
And and it's just the alcoholic uh is so programmed
for immediate gratification that.
Speaker 2 (30:53):
We'll do that. We'll pick the wrong people.
Speaker 1 (30:56):
We'll pick the Harley hell angel. You know what I mean,
My god, I was brought up, I born and raised
in basket Ridge.
Speaker 2 (31:04):
I'm going out with a hell angel, my god, you know.
Speaker 1 (31:10):
And then I'm contradicting my sponsor when he's trying to
give me relationship advice.
Speaker 2 (31:15):
So again, I've inventoried enough of.
Speaker 1 (31:20):
The unsuccessful relationships and Step four to understand some of
the things that don't work, and then it talks about
put together a sex ideal.
Speaker 2 (31:31):
Put a sex ideal together.
Speaker 1 (31:32):
What works, figure out everything that works, figure out what
you want, figure out what.
Speaker 2 (31:37):
You're willing to bring to the party.
Speaker 1 (31:39):
The more solid character traits, positive character traits you're willing
to bring to the party, the better the mate that
you're going to attract, the more influence you're gonna have
on who you're already with, so that the relationship can grow.
One of the things Bill Wilson used to say is
(32:00):
if you're not growing together, you're growing apart. It's why
in the early days of AA, they really tried to
drag the spouse and the family and everybody into the
recovery program. They didn't want somebody getting so spiritual that,
you know, they they're going to find somebody that really
understands and leave, you know, their family, And that does
(32:21):
happen in AA today.
Speaker 2 (32:22):
You know.
Speaker 1 (32:24):
A lot of times, I've actually I've seen more marriages
break up when somebody gets into AA than before. It's
because there's so much significant change that can take place
in an individual and a family unit.
Speaker 2 (32:39):
When somebody gets sober.
Speaker 1 (32:41):
So I'm putting together a sex ideal. Now I'm supposed
to enlist God with help to live up to that ideal.
One of the things, one of the things I've learned
in the in the past several years, is I work
with I work with.
Speaker 2 (32:56):
A lot of guys.
Speaker 1 (32:58):
Used to work with a lot of newcomers about five, six, seven, eight,
nine years ago.
Speaker 2 (33:01):
I was the go to guy for the newcomers.
Speaker 1 (33:04):
You know, I was taking a lot of people to
the steps just in the the natural evolution of my
twelve step work. I work a lot now with people
that have been around a while and people that are
seeking a deeper and broader experience with with AA, and
they've been through the steps a lot, and they've got
real life situations that could be improved on.
Speaker 2 (33:26):
And one of the things that there was a.
Speaker 1 (33:28):
Bunch of guys coming to me with work problems, and
so I said, let's let's put together a work ideal.
Let's use let's use the the inventory for the harms
to others, let's inventory the work relationships with that, and
then let's develop a work ideal. I've done some family
ideals with people, I've done some parenting ideals with people,
(33:53):
and it's a it's a good way to define where
you want to head and then work with God toward
toward achieving those goals.
Speaker 2 (34:03):
And all of this revolves around obviously revolves around relationships. Now.
Speaker 1 (34:11):
I stay very very current with a sponsor, but I
also do a lot of Fifthstep work with different people
that I'm going through the steps with. I've gotten to
a point now that I choose carefully who I'm gonna
be honest with, but then I'm honest about everything.
Speaker 2 (34:26):
I've really lost the fear of.
Speaker 1 (34:28):
You know, if I say that, if I tell this,
you know they're gonna think I'm small. I mean, I've
gotten way past all of that, and I'm very, very
forthcoming as forthcoming as I can be with things with
a lot of different people. But there is one sponsor
that I have that just knows everything, warts and all,
you know, and I'm not afraid to tell him, tell
him anything. And that's very helpful as far as relationships concerned,
(34:52):
because I'm not trying to hide anything. Anybody in here
lie back in the day, I won't even say now,
I'll say, like back in the day that you know
you would you would like or you would embellish the
truth a little bit. Anybody in here life for like
no reason.
Speaker 2 (35:09):
You know, somebody said, where were you made? You know
what I mean, they don't even care where you were?
You know you're were in Maine.
Speaker 1 (35:16):
I mean, you know, we we we would just lie
for like no reason at all.
Speaker 2 (35:21):
The fifth step really taught me that the truth isn't as.
Speaker 1 (35:24):
Dangerous as I think it is. You know, I don't
have to like manipulate everything.
Speaker 2 (35:29):
It's safe out there.
Speaker 1 (35:31):
So so I'm much more honest with with my relationships now.
You know, honesty without compassion can be abuse. You know,
I'm not gonna be completely honest with people if if
I can harm them, and so doing you know, so
there's there's areas that I have to use some discretion with.
Speaker 2 (35:54):
Doesn't mean I'm dishonest.
Speaker 1 (35:56):
It just means I'm not going to be brutally honest
just for the sake of being honest when it causes
somebody harm. Moving into steps six and seven, there's a
lot of great stuff in the Step book. There's also
two wonderful paragraphs three wonderful paragraphs in the in the
Big Book, and it.
Speaker 2 (36:16):
Talks about it talks a.
Speaker 1 (36:17):
Lot about being willing to have God remove these defects
of character that are causing these defective relationships and and
most of the most of your other woes. And there's
there's participation in this process. Along the line, though, I
had to learn what kind of participation was appropriate and
(36:40):
what what In other words, what was God's job and
what was my job?
Speaker 2 (36:44):
And a lot of times I was confused on it.
Speaker 1 (36:48):
At periods of time, I thought, you know, God, just
take away everything, and you know, that'll be great. Thanks,
and that was it and nothing would happen. And and
then there were times where I thought I was the one.
I've got to do everything, you know, I've got to
not be selfish today. I've got to be completely honest
and I'm going to change my ways. I'm gonna be
a completely different person, you know.
Speaker 2 (37:07):
And that lasted about five minutes.
Speaker 1 (37:09):
So I had to find I had to find where
where God's my participation and God's power apply with my
defects of character. And one of the things I found
is the best possible atmosphere to be in for the
removal of your character defects is to be willing to
(37:31):
make amends to the people who those defects of character.
Speaker 2 (37:34):
Harmed and actually.
Speaker 1 (37:35):
Go out and make amends to those people where those
defects of character have caused harm. Now, I know a
lot of people in this meeting, and I know you know,
if you line people up here with experience with amens,
that would be a very long line and you'd hear
one amazing story after another. So I'm kind of preaching
(37:56):
to the choir when I'm talking about making amends in
this group. But until I started making amends, until I
became willing and then started to actually take responsibility for
the defects of character and how they harmed other people,
I don't think I stood a chance in steps six
(38:17):
and seven. I don't you know, I prove my seriousness
to God when I start to go out and make amends,
and contingent upon how serious I am is how serious
the power is that starts to move my character defects. Now,
(38:38):
a lot of the character defects I had were removed,
and I mean removed. Road rage one day, you know,
I mean I would be on your ass two if
it's a thirty five mile an hour zone and you're
doing thirty three black dimin, don't you know I need
to be somewhere I'd be right on your ass and
I tell get you all the way.
Speaker 2 (38:59):
To the meeting, share on serenity, you know what I mean.
And that was me. Or or I'd be in a line.
Speaker 1 (39:06):
Anybody go to the anybody go to the supermarket and
you're in the express lane and somebody has like forty
two things and you know they're they're they're taking and
they start talking with the checkout lady like, you know,
how is Harry? You know, and you know they bring
out coupons, and then and after that they've got the
price Savor card, you know, and then now they're gonna
(39:27):
write a check, you know what I mean. And by
this time, you're you want him dead. You want him dead.
Speaker 2 (39:33):
You're gonna you deserve to die, you know.
Speaker 1 (39:37):
And uh, I mean.
Speaker 2 (39:39):
But.
Speaker 1 (39:42):
That type of rage, that type of rage left me
one day. It's not like, you know, it's not like
I worked on it. It was I did enough of
the spiritual work that all of a sudden I was
okay where I was doing what I was doing. And
that was just amazing, you know, to be okay where
you are doing what you're doing, because there really is
(40:04):
only only now.
Speaker 2 (40:05):
And there's only here.
Speaker 1 (40:07):
You know, and and why be upset about it?
Speaker 2 (40:10):
It's just ridiculous.
Speaker 1 (40:12):
So so I'm not telling you that if Clem could
diddle Hopper gets in front of me doing twenty miles
an hour and AO fifty, I'm not going to get
a little annoyed. I'm just not going to follow them
past my exit to re cut them off, you know
what I mean, I'll be able to drive the one car.
Speaker 2 (40:31):
So so that was removed. Fear of police was removed.
I mean, I don't know about anybody else.
Speaker 1 (40:37):
When you're driving down the road, all of a sudden
you see the red flashing lights, it's like, oh my god,
oh become a jesuit, you know, just let me get
out of this. That's the way it was for me.
And it never it never worked. They always pulled me over.
Speaker 2 (40:51):
You know.
Speaker 1 (40:51):
I remember this one time I got pulled over it
and I was so drunk.
Speaker 2 (40:55):
I was so drunk.
Speaker 1 (40:56):
I reached he goes licensed registration shirts car. I remember,
I just reached it to the glove compartment and it
was just I you know, I just couldn't deals. I've
handed them everything, you know, like handed them maps and
tissues and you know, all the pens and all this
stuff from the glove gud. I was so drunk, you know,
(41:17):
please step out of the car, you know.
Speaker 2 (41:18):
And it was like a big horrific thing.
Speaker 1 (41:20):
And I remember that they videotaped me because they were
they were big on that for a while.
Speaker 2 (41:25):
I guess.
Speaker 1 (41:25):
I guess they still are they And I remember going
to a lawyer and saying, I did really well on
the ABC's I want to fight this, okay, because I did.
I remembered that I got the ABCS. Well, I go
there with my lawyer and you know, we we uh,
we get the copy of the video, you know, as
(41:45):
part of our discovery, and we sit down and we
start watching it. And meanwhile, the cops are walking back
and forth out in the hallway and they're laughing.
Speaker 2 (41:53):
They can you can hear them laughing. You know.
Speaker 1 (41:56):
I guess that they had been using this for comic relief,
probably for the last couple of months. But anyway, I
know I nailed those ABCS.
Speaker 2 (42:04):
I nailed them.
Speaker 1 (42:06):
Well, we start watching the video and I'm horrified, has
anybody ever seen yourself really drunk on video? Oh it's ghastly,
it'll it'll And here's how I did the ABC's I mean,
that's exactly how I did him. And they have me
(42:28):
walk in the line and and they're they're video taping me.
I'm holding the wall while I'm walking the line there
like mister STROTI police take your heads off the wall
while you walk the line. And at the end of this,
they've got the camera. I mean, I'm sitting at the
desk and they go, is there anything that you want
to add before we turn the camera off?
Speaker 2 (42:46):
And I look at the camera and I do this.
Speaker 1 (42:50):
Well up and up until this point in time, my lawyer,
my lawyer had like composure.
Speaker 2 (42:56):
Right as soon as I did.
Speaker 1 (42:57):
That, he goes, wah ah, he's not slaving. He goes,
whatever small small chance we had of getting you off,
you just.
Speaker 2 (43:07):
Blew with that.
Speaker 1 (43:08):
Your tongue was slapping the side of your head back.
If I mean I've now, he goes, I've never seen
anything like that in my life. And I look at
him and I go, I guess we'll plead you know,
oh man, So so I walked for four years during
you know, the most important dating period of my life,
(43:31):
you know, the late eighties. Anyway, I mean, you know,
I was I was just an absolute maniac and you know,
I wondered why she left?
Speaker 2 (43:47):
Did? I mean, you know, and where are all the babes?
You know, it happened a guy like me.
Speaker 1 (43:55):
You know, I got to the point where I wasn't
even going to the bathroom anymore. I was throwing open
window and puking out the window. And you know, it's
like there's like a retirement community right next to my house,
you know, so there'd be like old people walking like
vomiting out the window, and yeah, where are the babes?
Speaker 2 (44:14):
Uh? I would be drunk.
Speaker 1 (44:17):
Out of my mind by about seven or eight o'clock
at night, in a complete blackout, and anybody, anybody here
a phoner, raise your hand, Come on you ever you
ever get really drunk and phone people up?
Speaker 2 (44:30):
Oh man? That used to horrifying me.
Speaker 1 (44:33):
I'd come downstairs and I'd have done it in a blackout.
So I'd look and there'd be little pieces of paper
all over the place with people.
Speaker 2 (44:39):
No.
Speaker 1 (44:40):
Not Mary little mcgillo, cunning from the fourth grade, don't no,
I called her? Oh no.
Speaker 2 (44:46):
You know.
Speaker 1 (44:46):
So it got to the point where I would cut
the telephone line. I'd start drinking and I'd cut the
phone line. Now I'm an electrician though, unfortunately, so I'd
get really drunk and i'd watch or not the lines
back together. Well, I started to get smart. I would
throw a ladder up on the side of the house
and reach as high up as I could with the
(45:07):
pliers and cut the line way up by the electrical lines. Well, well,
I'd get up there, so I put I'd put like
the ladder on top of a milk crate or something.
Speaker 2 (45:15):
I'd get up there and i'd put him back together.
Speaker 1 (45:17):
Well, it finally it got so bad that all you
hear is static in the lines, you know, because and
so so I called the phone company guy. The phone
company guy comes and he looks. He goes, what the
hell because it looks like it looks like the line
had been cut about thirty times in scotch tape back together,
(45:39):
because I've.
Speaker 2 (45:39):
Never seen anything like this in my life.
Speaker 1 (45:42):
And I go, oh, yeah, that's all I thought it was,
you know, bought the place with the like that, I mean, unbelievable. So,
I mean, you know, I lived in the past. Anybody
lived in the past. Anybody try to recapture the high
school party atmosphere, and you know, back when alcohol was working.
(46:03):
I mean you know, I'd call up all the people
I used to party and they'd be like, Chris, that
was twenty five years ago. You know, I'm a priest now,
you know or something.
Speaker 2 (46:15):
You know, don't call anymore here.
Speaker 1 (46:21):
Yeah, yeah, So it was it was really bad.
Speaker 2 (46:27):
Uh.
Speaker 1 (46:28):
When I started going out to make direct amends to
people that I had harmed, you know, people that I
had phoned, you know, anything, I had huge amounts of
of lists of people that I'd harm one way or
the other. I started to I started to get a
perspective on how to actually relate to people, you know.
Speaker 2 (46:48):
And today today I have so many friends that did.
It's some believable. I was searching for friends. I mean,
I'd buy the cocaine if.
Speaker 1 (46:56):
You'd be my friend, you know, and then I then
you'd disappoint me somehow, and I'd have to rob your guitars.
I mean, and it's just this outrageous nightmare type of
relationships I would have. But you know, today, practicing the principles,
and I don't profess to be an expert at these
principles or this book or this program or anything.
Speaker 2 (47:16):
I just have some experience, you know, the experience that.
Speaker 1 (47:20):
I've gotten from from practicing these principles.
Speaker 2 (47:24):
Has enabled me to.
Speaker 1 (47:27):
Have really good relationships. You know, I have an unbelievably
good relationship now with my wife.
Speaker 2 (47:33):
We've been married over ten years.
Speaker 1 (47:36):
I mean I never did anything for ten years in
a row. I could never keep anything together. I've got
really good relationships with my family. You know, my mother's
in a in a very deteriorative form right now. Her
body's really starting to give out. And I've spent a
lot of time in the last couple of months making
the house handicapped friendly for her. And you know, I
(48:00):
can get things done.
Speaker 2 (48:01):
That's what I do for a living. I can get
people to do things. That's really what a manager is.
And I know who.
Speaker 1 (48:09):
To call and where to call, and I've I've put
a lot of things into into places that are going
to be very, very helpful for her. I went from
being a terrible electrician to to running a big piece
of business where they actually give me about seven million
dollars in budget and say.
Speaker 2 (48:26):
Go for it.
Speaker 1 (48:27):
I can't even imagine that back when I was drinking.
Speaker 2 (48:31):
You know, you'd be you'd be afraid to lend me
five bucks, you know, let alone.
Speaker 1 (48:36):
Oh, here's Chris Hey, let's let's give let's give Chris
seven million dollars. Not even in a bad reality TV
show would you do that back then. So hut, about
sixty people work for me today, and I'm actually a
really compassionate yet efficient boss.
Speaker 2 (48:57):
Believe it or not. I did fire about forty of
them when I in there, just to get rid of
the dead wood. But you got to do that today,
you know. Uh. And but I now have.
Speaker 1 (49:06):
A really good, really good crew that you know, and
we're doing a great job and every everybody's happy except
that board member who had a buddy, so uh, you know,
so that's.
Speaker 2 (49:16):
Really going well. You know. All I all I can
tell you.
Speaker 1 (49:21):
Is these recovery principles are really the things that have
worked in my life.
Speaker 2 (49:29):
It's not it's not what I know, it's what I did.
Speaker 1 (49:32):
And the things that I did, uh had a cumulative effect,
and they all, uh, they all built up my ability
to deal and my quality of life.
Speaker 2 (49:45):
Uh, and for that, I'm very grateful.
Speaker 1 (49:47):
Now I hope everybody will uh will continue to Come
next week, we're gonna have Carrie and Pat are going
to be talking, uh and uh that's gonna be uh,
that's gonna be great.
Speaker 2 (49:58):
Yeah you guys next week.
Speaker 1 (49:59):
Yeah, Pat's looking around, so you don't want to miss that.
And there's there's twelve other speakers that are going to
be here over the course of the next three months,
sharing on different aspects of relationship, different types of relationships,
and how they've applied recovery principles. And it is an
(50:20):
open meeting. Bring anybody you want to bring. You can
even you can even bring those spouses that you want
to you want to sharpen up a little bit because
they're not acting right. You know, maybe we'll learn a
few things and you know, so please please do that.
Speaker 2 (50:36):
We have fifteen minutes left.
Speaker 1 (50:37):
It's open for sharing, for comments, for anything.
Speaker 2 (50:42):
Thank you.
Practicing, recovery principles, and relationships. And it's broken up into
four distinct sections community, friends and family, intimate relationships, and
work relationships. I want to read a couple of pieces
from conference approved literature to get us kind of started
(00:22):
and in the right mood here. This group definitely is,
definitely is very, very concerned with the recovery process. That's
as it's outlined in the Big Book for obvious reasons.
Speaker 2 (00:38):
But I want to read.
Speaker 1 (00:39):
I want to read a couple of things, and these
were all written by Bill Wilson, co founder of Alcoholic Exnonymous.
This is from a pamphlet calls problems other than alcohol.
Speaker 2 (00:53):
Sobriety.
Speaker 1 (00:54):
Freedom from alcohol through the teaching and practice of the
Twelve Steps is the sole purpose of an AA group.
I love that that tells us what our purposes as
a group. It's the teaching and practice of the Twelve Steps.
It's it's about us learning and applying the steps to
our lives, and then showing other people how to learn
(01:18):
and apply.
Speaker 2 (01:19):
The steps to our lives.
Speaker 1 (01:21):
Now, you know, I got sober in North Jersey a
long time ago, and a lot of the meetings I
went to were what you you would term oral tradition,
which was basically you would you would have wisdom teachings
that were passed down from sponsor to sponse over the
course of time in the meetings, and usually Harvey Gerbil
(01:44):
Feather with like twenty three years would be the guy
who you know had all the great wisdom teachings, the
great one liners, and you know you you'd go to
the meetings and you'd hear these these distinctly wonderful pieces
of wisdom. But there wasn't really a lot going on
as far as working working a recovery program from the book.
(02:06):
And in the nineties, in the nineties that changed, and
now there you can't shake a stick without finding a
group that's uh, that's very concerned with the twelve steps.
Speaker 2 (02:16):
And that's a good thing because.
Speaker 1 (02:19):
Now you know there's there's a there's more more awareness,
I think where it concerns the recovery process. This is
from page one seventy four in Tradition nine in the
Step book, and it says here, unless each AA member follows,
(02:39):
to the best of his ability or suggested twelve steps
to recovery, he almost certainly signs his own death warrant.
Speaker 2 (02:46):
That's a very very.
Speaker 1 (02:47):
Strong language as far as practicing the steps is concerned. Now,
you know, I don't know about anybody else in here,
but I've been around for a while since the late eighties,
and what I've seen my experience with what I've seen
is the people who become enthusiastic about consistent meeting attendance,
(03:10):
the people that become enthusiastic about working a recovery program
with an experienced sponsor, an experienced spiritual advisor. And then
those people who try to carry that message in whatever
way they're best suited. Those are the people that are
still that are still around and have really good qualities
of life.
Speaker 2 (03:30):
I'm not talking about the people with.
Speaker 1 (03:32):
A lot of years and they're they're cranky all the time,
you know, those people that are always.
Speaker 2 (03:36):
Cranky for one reason.
Speaker 1 (03:37):
Or I'm talking about the people who really are happy, joyous,
and free and who insist upon enjoying life. Those you
just find a high percentage of those are people who've
paid attention to.
Speaker 2 (03:52):
The recovery process.
Speaker 1 (03:53):
So here is this is from the forward of the
twelve and twelve says a twelve steps are a group
of principles spiritual in their nature, which if practiced as
a way of life, can expel the obsession to drink
and enable the sufferer to become happily and usefully whole.
(04:14):
This is all, This is all very good news. I
want to be happy, happily and usefully whole. If you
knew me, say back in the last two or thre
three years of my drinking, I was anything but useful
and anything.
Speaker 2 (04:31):
But happy I was.
Speaker 1 (04:33):
I was more or less psychotic and not the type
of person you wanted any anywhere near your home, you know.
Speaker 2 (04:41):
I remember the.
Speaker 1 (04:42):
First time I was invited over to my sponsor's house
with about six months. It was the first time somebody
had actually invited me over to their home. And I'm like,
you want me to come over to your house?
Speaker 2 (04:53):
I was like blown.
Speaker 1 (04:54):
Away, because you know, my invitations had had run out
many many years ago.
Speaker 2 (05:01):
I would just I would do you know, I would
do crazy things.
Speaker 1 (05:04):
I remember one of the last parties I went to
the the person that owned.
Speaker 2 (05:09):
The house came home early and threw us all out.
So very indignantly.
Speaker 1 (05:15):
I drove my car around his front lawn, running over
all his shrubberies, yelling out, the yelling out out the
window of what I thought of this particular individual. You know,
you don't get invited back when you run over shrubberies. Anyway,
this particular workshop is about relationships, and you know what
(05:35):
really else is there? I mean, when we're when we're
forced to practice a spiritual way of life or face
alcoholic destruction, we need to start to come to terms
with how we conduct our relationships. Some of my relationship
skills back when I was drinking was hollering and threatening.
(05:59):
Those were two of my skills. Fight or flight. Anybody
relate to that, like you either you either avoid completely
a situation or beat the crap out of it, you know,
one or the other.
Speaker 2 (06:14):
I mean, I really had so few skills.
Speaker 1 (06:18):
I I came to in recovery as a bad electrician, That's.
Speaker 2 (06:23):
What I was.
Speaker 1 (06:24):
I mean, I come from a family of really, really
intelligent people. My brother and sister are both college professor PhDs.
My mother and father were both Phi beta kappa from
really great schools, you know, masters plus thirties degrees, all
educators and just way too smart for.
Speaker 2 (06:42):
Their own good. And here I come along, and.
Speaker 1 (06:45):
I graduate the second stupidest kid in the high school class, seriously,
And I went to I went to the University of
South Florida for three years and got six credits. You know,
that's that's like Dunesbery.
Speaker 2 (06:59):
Esque, you know what I mean.
Speaker 1 (07:00):
It's like you really have to work hard it dropping
and withdrawing and you know, taking things over and dropping them. So,
you know, I I just couldn't deal. It was really
a lack of dealage.
Speaker 2 (07:17):
You know. When I'd get up in.
Speaker 1 (07:19):
The morning and the choice would face me whether to
roll a big doobie or get motivated and go off
to economics, it was an easy choice way too often,
you know what I mean. And I would sit around
the house watching love Boat reruns, watching watching Gopher fall
(07:40):
in love.
Speaker 2 (07:40):
You know. Then my wife had come home and say,
what'd you do all day? Nothing? You know, it just
it just wasn't working.
Speaker 1 (07:50):
So, I mean, every single relationship in my life was
destroyed by the time by the time I got into AA,
I'd lost a family, I'd lost my self respect, I'd
lost countless friends because I had a lot of friends
in high school and college.
Speaker 2 (08:08):
I'd burned those bridges.
Speaker 1 (08:10):
I'd had like thirteen jobs in ten years. I could
never I could never deal with anything for.
Speaker 2 (08:16):
Any long period of time.
Speaker 1 (08:18):
You know I was a good starter. Anybody in here
a good starter. You know, you come out of the
gate like a pro. But somewhere along the line, your
enthusiasm or you know, you would change your mind to
the importance of whatever the heck you were doing, like working,
you know, it's like not that important, And I'd shoot
(08:40):
myself in the foot time and time again.
Speaker 2 (08:43):
I'm gonna read from page eighty.
Speaker 1 (08:45):
The Step book is coming up time and time again.
Speaker 2 (08:47):
I hope the Big Book police aren't going to arrest
me after the meeting. But this is one of the great.
Speaker 1 (08:53):
Lines in the twelve and twelve. This is in step eight.
It says, since defective relationships with other human beings have
nearly always been the immediate cause of our woes, including
our alcoholism, no field of investigation could yield more satisfying
and valuable rewards than this one calm thought for reflection
(09:16):
upon personal relations can deepen our insight. So again, when
we start, when we start working a program of recovery,
we come to terms with our alcoholism in step one,
and hopefully someone with some experiences explaining to us exactly
what alcoholism is. Because you can be you can be
(09:38):
in AA with twenty years and not have a clue
what the first step is.
Speaker 2 (09:42):
That's not unusual.
Speaker 1 (09:45):
So hopefully you have you have a sponsor, or a
spiritual advisor, or a group who can adequately explain.
Speaker 2 (09:55):
What step one.
Speaker 1 (09:56):
Is, what being an alcoholic is, what powerlessness means, what
unmanageability means. So in the first step, you come to
terms with that. In the second step, you come to
believe that there's hope, there's a solution, there's a power
greater than yourself, because lack of power becomes your dilemma
when you understand step one.
Speaker 2 (10:18):
So power is.
Speaker 1 (10:20):
A solution that you, hopefully you start to come to
believe in in step two.
Speaker 2 (10:26):
In step three, you make the decision to embrace that
power to.
Speaker 1 (10:32):
Participate in the things in Alcoholics anonymous that many many
people have the experience of participating and that led them
to an effective relationship with the power greater than themselves
that can restore them to sanity with where it concerns alcohol,
And there's some further good news, restore your quality of life,
(10:57):
handle your problems, show you how to handle your albums.
Speaker 2 (11:02):
So those are the first three steps.
Speaker 1 (11:03):
So okay, I'm in, I'm in I've done all three steps.
I'm ready to go. What do you want me to do?
The book asks us to inventory our resentments.
Speaker 2 (11:19):
And again, one of the things.
Speaker 1 (11:21):
That I usually tell people that i'm working with, or
I usually cover in workshops where I think that there's
people who haven't gone through the steps, is.
Speaker 2 (11:29):
Don't make don't come.
Speaker 1 (11:32):
To a conclusion in your mind what the steps are
all about before you experience them. The steps are meant
to be understood experientially, not intellectually. That's a big mistake
I made. They handed me the book Alcoholics Anonymous and Rehab,
and I read it because that's what I did.
Speaker 2 (11:49):
I read everything.
Speaker 1 (11:50):
I usually have to read it again because I'd read
it in a blackout, but being in rehab, I wasn't
in a blackout. So I read it and Okay, I
got it. I understand, but understand it's not lack of
understanding is not our dilemma. Lack of power is our dilemma.
Speaker 2 (12:07):
So again, this book is meant to.
Speaker 1 (12:11):
It's it's It was written with the understanding that you
would do the exercises.
Speaker 2 (12:16):
Now, that's a problem usually with bothout. Most alcoholics who in.
Speaker 1 (12:20):
Here when they were in school would read the chapter,
but would not do the study exercises at the end.
You know I never did those stupid best ye know,
I'm like at it, I gotta work, I gotta work.
I already know. I know, I already know I don't
need more work, and that would If you have that
(12:40):
attitude when you're when you're approaching our literature, you're going
to be in trouble because the recovery process is very
much hinged on what you do, not on what you know.
Speaker 2 (12:53):
So they asked us to do a few things.
Speaker 1 (12:57):
They ask us to start inventorying our resentments.
Speaker 2 (13:01):
Now, I don't know about anybody else.
Speaker 1 (13:02):
Every once in a while I get somebody who doesn't
have any resentments.
Speaker 2 (13:06):
I don't have any resentments.
Speaker 1 (13:08):
Oh so we could invite the police over right now
for T. How about the irs or the ex wife
or you know, the guy who beat you up.
Speaker 2 (13:16):
In fourth grade? We'll have them all over for T.
Speaker 1 (13:19):
I mean, you know, please, if you're an alcoholic you
have resentments, we here's what an.
Speaker 2 (13:28):
Alcoholic will do.
Speaker 1 (13:30):
It's inconvenient for it to be our problem, you know
what I'm saying. The the resistance we get with people,
the turbulence we have with relationships, it's inconvenient for that
to be our fault. So we're pre programmed to take
the other person's inventory and list all of their defects
(13:53):
of character and why there's such scumbags. And we get
very very good at that. You know, we've got we've
got scumbag categories that we can place people in.
Speaker 2 (14:04):
You know, this person is such and.
Speaker 1 (14:05):
Such a scumbag, and this person is such and such
a scumbag. And because because it's inconvenient for it to
be our fault. And I remember probably my first step
meeting that they they read the spiritual axiom. I was
convinced that was a typo.
Speaker 2 (14:24):
You know.
Speaker 1 (14:26):
That they can't mean what they say. That there's something
wrong with me every time. That's not possible. Uh. You know,
I was so programmed to concentrate on the other person
that my perspective was wrong. You know, what a miracle is.
A miracle is a shift in perception. And they say
(14:49):
that there are a lot of miracles in AA, and
that's absolutely true, because there's a ton of shifts in perception.
You know, I had to start changing my mind, and
at first that was like monumental Chris is about to
change his mind, alert the press.
Speaker 2 (15:08):
You know, he's changing his mind.
Speaker 1 (15:11):
I had to start to become open minded.
Speaker 2 (15:13):
And the fourth.
Speaker 1 (15:14):
Step is a beautiful thing for that, because you get
to column number four putting out of our minds the
wrongs we have done others, we resolutely looked at our
own faults, and all of a sudden, I have to
look at my part in it now. In the early days,
(15:35):
it was difficult for me really to see my part accurately.
But after doing after writing as much inventory as I've written,
I can very quickly go to the fourth column, and
I can very very quickly see how I participated.
Speaker 2 (15:48):
In the event. Now. It's usually because I've been around
a while.
Speaker 1 (15:53):
I usually don't attack like I used to. I'm not
like an attacker, but there are subtle ways that I
can kind of deviously set people up. You know, in
work relationships or or with family relationships, there's there's manipulation
techniques that go below the horizon. You know what I'm saying.
(16:16):
You don't really see them as accurately, and and it
ends up causing a lot of turbulence in the relationship.
Speaker 2 (16:22):
So when I'm in.
Speaker 1 (16:23):
The fourth in the fourth column today, I get to
look at where was I dishonest?
Speaker 2 (16:28):
Where was I self seeking?
Speaker 1 (16:29):
Which I look at self seeking as what I want
that I don't have, and I look at selfishness as
what I have that I don't want you to get?
Speaker 2 (16:40):
Uh?
Speaker 1 (16:40):
And where am I frightened? What am I frightened of?
Speaker 2 (16:43):
What? You know? What? What instinct or ambition is threatened? What?
Speaker 1 (16:46):
What am I afraid I'm not going to get her?
Am I afraid I'm going to lose? And why do
I act that way in the relationship with you?
Speaker 2 (16:55):
So over the years.
Speaker 1 (16:57):
Writing all that inventory, I've become much better at having
relationships with people.
Speaker 2 (17:02):
Now. You know, there are people that are really close
to me that might argue that point a little bit.
Speaker 1 (17:10):
I'm certainly certainly nowhere near perfect. I've got flaws galore,
But you know, I was like a tornado blasting my
way through people's lives when I was drinking, And it's
really not that way anymore.
Speaker 2 (17:24):
There. I can actually be a positive.
Speaker 1 (17:26):
Influence every once in a while now, So it really
is on the other end of the spectrum. Another area
of the inventory. They asked me to look at his fears. Now,
believe it or not, fears play a big part in
my relationship with you. I'll give you a couple of
for instances. One of the ones back when I was
(17:48):
drinking in early recovery, I had a fear of confrontation
because of the fight or flight, Like if somebody confronted me,
I was afraid I would just have to go nuclear
on them and I'd end up in jail or something,
you know, or beat up or you know whatever. I remember,
I'll give you for instance, I'm sober, maybe six months
(18:10):
maybe less, and I'm a I'm a crew chief for
an electrical contractor. I'm the foreman, and I have.
Speaker 2 (18:16):
Four or five guys that work for me.
Speaker 1 (18:18):
And because my boss was a drunk, just a killer drunk,
you'd show up at his house and he'd like open
up the window from his bedroombody to go, oh go
thegil cut his house work, and then he'd close close
the window. And what he was supposed to do was
he was supposed to make sure there was enough supplies
in the shop and around where where we could grab
(18:40):
the supplies for the jobs. If he could pull that
off in a day, that'd be fine. I did, like
everything else for this guy. I kept this business. Everything
I did. I did everything but signing the checks. But anyway,
this one day, he shows up on a job, which
was unusual, and I'm not there because because there wasn't
the material that we needed for the job, had to
go to the supply house. And because I'm not there,
(19:02):
I come back and he's annoyed that I wasn't on
the job and my guys.
Speaker 2 (19:06):
Were like free roaming.
Speaker 1 (19:08):
So he starts yelling at me, good damn it, and
in front of my peers, you know, in front of
my men, he's.
Speaker 2 (19:17):
Like swearing at me and denigrating me.
Speaker 1 (19:20):
You know, he's casting aspersions on my my my professional attitude.
And I really got mad. I kept my mouth shut.
I didn't freak out, but I had to pay a
visit to my sponsor that night, and I said, Phil,
I'm gonna blow up his trucks. I've made up my mind.
(19:42):
I know how to do it. You use cock stimbodrome, fuel,
and chlorine.
Speaker 2 (19:46):
You know.
Speaker 1 (19:47):
I came into recovery with like like.
Speaker 2 (19:50):
Bomb making skills, you know, so so I'm gonna blow
up his trucks.
Speaker 1 (19:56):
And he goes, Chris, No, Chris, here's what you're gonna do.
You're gonna go there tomorrow morning, and you're gonna see
him first thing, and you're gonna say, Anthony, I would
like a word with you in private. Now I'm looking
at him like he's insane. But but the problem was,
he had like an uninterrupted string of being right, you
(20:19):
know what I mean, Like he was on a roll,
like every time he called something, he was right. So
I had to listen to him because of this this
adberrant series of being correct. So he goes when you
get him alone, say Anthony, I didn't really appreciate the
way you talk to me in front of the crew
(20:39):
the other day, and I wish that anytime in the
future that you have a problem with me, you'll take
me off to the side.
Speaker 2 (20:47):
I'm like, what I liked the blowing up the van thing? Better?
Are you crazy?
Speaker 1 (20:55):
He's gonna least gonna he's gonna think I'm an idiot.
But you know, I did it because I was I
was willing to go to go to Phil's links and
I did that. I go Anthony, Uh, I'd like, where
were you in private? And I remember saying it to
him like and and after I said it to me,
looked at me like with this crazy look. And he goes, Okay,
(21:20):
God damn it. My sponsor was right. Again, you know,
I'm never gonna tell I'm never gonna be able to
tell him.
Speaker 2 (21:27):
I told you so. So uh So, anyway, you know.
Speaker 1 (21:30):
That was that was how you know that was I
was gonna blow the guy's truck up. That was my
relationship skill back back then, you know, and again you know,
things are better, things are better, But there, you know
a lot of times it was fear, really that was.
Speaker 2 (21:47):
That was. I was afraid of looking bad.
Speaker 1 (21:50):
God forbid my guys like think that I'm you know,
I'm not cool or something.
Speaker 2 (21:56):
I mean, that was like the worst thing that could
have happened to me.
Speaker 1 (22:00):
So so fear is tied in so much with the
way I react in relationships.
Speaker 2 (22:05):
Now, I had a had I had.
Speaker 1 (22:09):
An experience just recently with work that's kind of worked
its way out. But what it was was, I have
a job. I run a business account and it's it's
subject to the authority of a board of directors. Now,
there was a board of directors election and they elected
two or three new board members who who I didn't
(22:31):
have a relationship with. And one guy came in and
he had a buddy who does what I do, and
he wanted this buddy to have my job, so he
came right out of the gate after me, like you
wouldn't believe, Like it came out of nowhere all of
a sudden, you know. I mean, every single thing I'm
doing is being put under.
Speaker 2 (22:52):
A microscope, and I'm like, what is going on?
Speaker 1 (22:55):
And it just so happens that that I found this
out in a bizarre way. A friend of mine down
in Lakewood was in a congresation at a professional conference
where the guy who was gonna replace me was bragging
that he was, you know, they want me.
Speaker 2 (23:14):
Back in this account. The street ex out or ruh,
and he calls me up.
Speaker 1 (23:17):
He goes, Chris, are you hiring somebody I got know?
He goes, well, somebody's coming up to South Playfield to
take over your account.
Speaker 2 (23:24):
I'm like, what you know?
Speaker 1 (23:26):
So I figured this out because uh, I'm still very devious,
you know, I'm still very still very you know, dope
fiend strategic, you know what I mean, Like you never
lose those edges, like to be able to read people.
Speaker 2 (23:40):
You know, and stuff like that.
Speaker 1 (23:41):
So so I figure out what's going on. That doesn't
mean I can really do anything. But this guy, this
guy is trying to talk all of the people that
I report to into getting rid of me because he's
got a buddy, he's got a drinking buddy that he
can manipulate. And uh, you know, so for like a
month and a half, I'm under attack, and I gotta
(24:04):
tell you, I had a lot of fear about it. Uh,
fear of economic insecurity, fear of uh you know, fear
of confrontation.
Speaker 2 (24:12):
There was a lot of fears.
Speaker 1 (24:13):
But I was able to handle myself professionally and not
react in a way where it would require me to
make direct amends to like the entire board or something.
Speaker 2 (24:24):
You know, that definitely would have happened.
Speaker 1 (24:26):
And I didn't even think once of blowing up this
guy's truck. So uh so there's a lot of positive.
Speaker 2 (24:33):
Movement in uh in my life.
Speaker 1 (24:36):
Uh, practicing practice, practicing these principles. Now there's another inventory
in the fourth step.
Speaker 2 (24:43):
It's uh it's sex harms.
Speaker 1 (24:46):
Inventory harms to others, emphasis on sex.
Speaker 2 (24:51):
Now, Uh it's it.
Speaker 1 (24:52):
Says, I, if you're alcoholic, you your sex life needs
an overhauling.
Speaker 2 (24:57):
This is what it said, you know.
Speaker 1 (24:58):
So, so uh, if you're one of those people that
thinks everything's going pretty good in that area. The book
says you need to overhaul it, not tune it up.
Speaker 2 (25:09):
You know what I mean. And I didn't argue.
Speaker 1 (25:12):
I wasn't one of the people that really argued too
much with this because the last girlfriend I had when
I was drinking was, honest to god, a Harley Hell
Angel old lady from Oakland. Okay, I mean a Harley
Hell Angel Old lady. I'm not talking about somebody that
liked bikers. I mean she was a Hell's Angel Old
lady from the Oakland chapter. And I met her in
(25:34):
this prison pen pal thing that I was doing. And listen,
if you're new, if you're new, please, I'm not recommending
that as a dating tool.
Speaker 2 (25:46):
It didn't.
Speaker 1 (25:47):
I had a bad, real bad experience with that. It
started with our first date where she owed deed in
Penn Station and then.
Speaker 2 (25:56):
Just went down hill, you know what I mean.
Speaker 1 (25:58):
But anyway, anyway, oh man, I brought her home to
live with me and Mom.
Speaker 2 (26:05):
Can you imagine?
Speaker 1 (26:08):
Do I need to tell you they didn't get along?
Speaker 2 (26:11):
Oh my god.
Speaker 1 (26:12):
She she wanted to go around armed in Basking Ridge.
Speaker 2 (26:15):
She wanted to go around armed. Oh this, you know, in.
Speaker 1 (26:20):
Basking Ridge, you know, yeah, I guess you do need
a handgun.
Speaker 2 (26:24):
In Basketing Ridge, there was somebody.
Speaker 1 (26:26):
That walked the dog without a leash here two years ago.
Speaker 2 (26:29):
You know, you gotta protect yourself. This one time in
the store.
Speaker 1 (26:34):
I don't know if anybody's familiar basketwa If it's a
store restaurant, it's like real, real, you know, highbrow type
of restaurant. I take her up there for for a drink,
and we're sitting in there and I happened to mention.
I pointed to a waitress and I said, yeah, that
that waitress wanted to go out with me, but she
blew me off three times. I don't know even why
why I said that, you know, And it's okay, let's go,
(26:57):
and we go out to the car and she goes,
hold on a minute, I forgot my purse. And she
goes back and she drags this waitress off of a
barstool and beats the ever loving.
Speaker 2 (27:10):
Cramp out of her.
Speaker 1 (27:11):
In the store restaurant, people were so shocked.
Speaker 2 (27:18):
No one even did anything.
Speaker 1 (27:20):
They just stood there like ah, nobody even trying to
break it up.
Speaker 2 (27:24):
And she comes running out of the place.
Speaker 1 (27:26):
You know, going start the car, we gotta get out.
Speaker 2 (27:28):
Like what what? Let just beat the hell out of
that girl? It disrespected you. I'm like what that's the store?
You know?
Speaker 1 (27:38):
So did I need an overhauling?
Speaker 2 (27:43):
You know what I mean? And I I remember, I remember, Okay,
so I'm sober.
Speaker 1 (27:49):
Now I'm sober a couple of months and uh this this,
Uh I guess she was kind of mochus.
Speaker 2 (27:57):
This, this very attractive.
Speaker 1 (27:59):
Young lady started to make what at least I interpreted
was kind of passes at me, like, you know what
meeting are you're going to tomorrow night? You know, maybe
we can, maybe we can have a couple. So I
go back to my sponsor, Phil, Phil. You know, there's
this girl here. I want to go to some different
meetings because she wants me to go over the Oh
you want to Oh you want to get hooked up
with a woman, Chris, Is that what you want to do?
Speaker 2 (28:21):
Oh? That would be a good idea. Oh, that would
be a good idea. He goes.
Speaker 1 (28:25):
Relationship stands for a really exciting love affair turns into
outrageous nightmare. Sobriety hangs in balance. That's what relationship spells,
you know, and he knew that.
Speaker 2 (28:37):
So uh so he goes, I don't really recommend.
Speaker 1 (28:40):
That, Chris, and let me let me, let me emphasize it.
Speaker 2 (28:45):
Like this picture.
Speaker 1 (28:47):
Picture a gymnasium filled with women, and somewhere in that
gymnasium is an axe murderous.
Speaker 2 (28:54):
Here's what the cops would do.
Speaker 1 (28:56):
They would set you loose in there, and as soon
as you became attracted to somebody, they throw the cuffs
on her. And I'm like, I'm like looking at him, like, no,
you don't understand, you don't understand me.
Speaker 2 (29:10):
Well he unders he understood me. All right, Oh my god.
Speaker 1 (29:15):
So an overhaul and can can take can take a
couple of years. Uh, you know, to to be to
be at a point where you can you can pick
a healthy relationship instead of something that's really exciting, you know,
Like I'm working with this, I'm working with this one person.
Speaker 2 (29:33):
Uh who uh? Who makes bad choices? I mean as
far as partnering.
Speaker 1 (29:40):
Up, is there anybody in here that makes bad choices
every once in a while partnering up or or has
experience making bad choices partnering Yuh, Well, there's one individual.
Just time and time and time again, it's just an
absolute outrageous nightmare of a relationship. So I said to her,
I go listen, how about this. I'll be in charge
(30:03):
of who you date from now on.
Speaker 2 (30:05):
I mean, it's got to be better than than the
people you're picking.
Speaker 1 (30:09):
You know, it's got to be better than the websites
you're going to.
Speaker 2 (30:13):
I mean, oh, my god. So you know, a lot of.
Speaker 1 (30:19):
Times we approach relationships like we approached alcohol. We approach
relationships like we approach drugs. That person will make me
feel better, instead of looking at relationships in a healthy way,
which is, you know, could that relationship be rewarding on
(30:39):
a number of different levels except for you know.
Speaker 2 (30:43):
Passion wise, you know.
Speaker 1 (30:45):
And and it's just the alcoholic uh is so programmed
for immediate gratification that.
Speaker 2 (30:53):
We'll do that. We'll pick the wrong people.
Speaker 1 (30:56):
We'll pick the Harley hell angel. You know what I mean,
My god, I was brought up, I born and raised
in basket Ridge.
Speaker 2 (31:04):
I'm going out with a hell angel, my god, you know.
Speaker 1 (31:10):
And then I'm contradicting my sponsor when he's trying to
give me relationship advice.
Speaker 2 (31:15):
So again, I've inventoried enough of.
Speaker 1 (31:20):
The unsuccessful relationships and Step four to understand some of
the things that don't work, and then it talks about
put together a sex ideal.
Speaker 2 (31:31):
Put a sex ideal together.
Speaker 1 (31:32):
What works, figure out everything that works, figure out what
you want, figure out what.
Speaker 2 (31:37):
You're willing to bring to the party.
Speaker 1 (31:39):
The more solid character traits, positive character traits you're willing
to bring to the party, the better the mate that
you're going to attract, the more influence you're gonna have
on who you're already with, so that the relationship can grow.
One of the things Bill Wilson used to say is
(32:00):
if you're not growing together, you're growing apart. It's why
in the early days of AA, they really tried to
drag the spouse and the family and everybody into the
recovery program. They didn't want somebody getting so spiritual that,
you know, they they're going to find somebody that really
understands and leave, you know, their family, And that does
(32:21):
happen in AA today.
Speaker 2 (32:22):
You know.
Speaker 1 (32:24):
A lot of times, I've actually I've seen more marriages
break up when somebody gets into AA than before. It's
because there's so much significant change that can take place
in an individual and a family unit.
Speaker 2 (32:39):
When somebody gets sober.
Speaker 1 (32:41):
So I'm putting together a sex ideal. Now I'm supposed
to enlist God with help to live up to that ideal.
One of the things, one of the things I've learned
in the in the past several years, is I work
with I work with.
Speaker 2 (32:56):
A lot of guys.
Speaker 1 (32:58):
Used to work with a lot of newcomers about five, six, seven, eight,
nine years ago.
Speaker 2 (33:01):
I was the go to guy for the newcomers.
Speaker 1 (33:04):
You know, I was taking a lot of people to
the steps just in the the natural evolution of my
twelve step work. I work a lot now with people
that have been around a while and people that are
seeking a deeper and broader experience with with AA, and
they've been through the steps a lot, and they've got
real life situations that could be improved on.
Speaker 2 (33:26):
And one of the things that there was a.
Speaker 1 (33:28):
Bunch of guys coming to me with work problems, and
so I said, let's let's put together a work ideal.
Let's use let's use the the inventory for the harms
to others, let's inventory the work relationships with that, and
then let's develop a work ideal. I've done some family
ideals with people, I've done some parenting ideals with people,
(33:53):
and it's a it's a good way to define where
you want to head and then work with God toward
toward achieving those goals.
Speaker 2 (34:03):
And all of this revolves around obviously revolves around relationships. Now.
Speaker 1 (34:11):
I stay very very current with a sponsor, but I
also do a lot of Fifthstep work with different people
that I'm going through the steps with. I've gotten to
a point now that I choose carefully who I'm gonna
be honest with, but then I'm honest about everything.
Speaker 2 (34:26):
I've really lost the fear of.
Speaker 1 (34:28):
You know, if I say that, if I tell this,
you know they're gonna think I'm small. I mean, I've
gotten way past all of that, and I'm very, very
forthcoming as forthcoming as I can be with things with
a lot of different people. But there is one sponsor
that I have that just knows everything, warts and all,
you know, and I'm not afraid to tell him, tell
him anything. And that's very helpful as far as relationships concerned,
(34:52):
because I'm not trying to hide anything. Anybody in here
lie back in the day, I won't even say now,
I'll say, like back in the day that you know
you would you would like or you would embellish the
truth a little bit. Anybody in here life for like
no reason.
Speaker 2 (35:09):
You know, somebody said, where were you made? You know
what I mean, they don't even care where you were?
You know you're were in Maine.
Speaker 1 (35:16):
I mean, you know, we we we would just lie
for like no reason at all.
Speaker 2 (35:21):
The fifth step really taught me that the truth isn't as.
Speaker 1 (35:24):
Dangerous as I think it is. You know, I don't
have to like manipulate everything.
Speaker 2 (35:29):
It's safe out there.
Speaker 1 (35:31):
So so I'm much more honest with with my relationships now.
You know, honesty without compassion can be abuse. You know,
I'm not gonna be completely honest with people if if
I can harm them, and so doing you know, so
there's there's areas that I have to use some discretion with.
Speaker 2 (35:54):
Doesn't mean I'm dishonest.
Speaker 1 (35:56):
It just means I'm not going to be brutally honest
just for the sake of being honest when it causes
somebody harm. Moving into steps six and seven, there's a
lot of great stuff in the Step book. There's also
two wonderful paragraphs three wonderful paragraphs in the in the
Big Book, and it.
Speaker 2 (36:16):
Talks about it talks a.
Speaker 1 (36:17):
Lot about being willing to have God remove these defects
of character that are causing these defective relationships and and
most of the most of your other woes. And there's
there's participation in this process. Along the line, though, I
had to learn what kind of participation was appropriate and
(36:40):
what what In other words, what was God's job and
what was my job?
Speaker 2 (36:44):
And a lot of times I was confused on it.
Speaker 1 (36:48):
At periods of time, I thought, you know, God, just
take away everything, and you know, that'll be great. Thanks,
and that was it and nothing would happen. And and
then there were times where I thought I was the one.
I've got to do everything, you know, I've got to
not be selfish today. I've got to be completely honest
and I'm going to change my ways. I'm gonna be
a completely different person, you know.
Speaker 2 (37:07):
And that lasted about five minutes.
Speaker 1 (37:09):
So I had to find I had to find where
where God's my participation and God's power apply with my
defects of character. And one of the things I found
is the best possible atmosphere to be in for the
removal of your character defects is to be willing to
(37:31):
make amends to the people who those defects of character.
Speaker 2 (37:34):
Harmed and actually.
Speaker 1 (37:35):
Go out and make amends to those people where those
defects of character have caused harm. Now, I know a
lot of people in this meeting, and I know you know,
if you line people up here with experience with amens,
that would be a very long line and you'd hear
one amazing story after another. So I'm kind of preaching
(37:56):
to the choir when I'm talking about making amends in
this group. But until I started making amends, until I
became willing and then started to actually take responsibility for
the defects of character and how they harmed other people,
I don't think I stood a chance in steps six
(38:17):
and seven. I don't you know, I prove my seriousness
to God when I start to go out and make amends,
and contingent upon how serious I am is how serious
the power is that starts to move my character defects. Now,
(38:38):
a lot of the character defects I had were removed,
and I mean removed. Road rage one day, you know,
I mean I would be on your ass two if
it's a thirty five mile an hour zone and you're
doing thirty three black dimin, don't you know I need
to be somewhere I'd be right on your ass and
I tell get you all the way.
Speaker 2 (38:59):
To the meeting, share on serenity, you know what I mean.
And that was me. Or or I'd be in a line.
Speaker 1 (39:06):
Anybody go to the anybody go to the supermarket and
you're in the express lane and somebody has like forty
two things and you know they're they're they're taking and
they start talking with the checkout lady like, you know,
how is Harry? You know, and you know they bring
out coupons, and then and after that they've got the
price Savor card, you know, and then now they're gonna
(39:27):
write a check, you know what I mean. And by
this time, you're you want him dead. You want him dead.
Speaker 2 (39:33):
You're gonna you deserve to die, you know.
Speaker 1 (39:37):
And uh, I mean.
Speaker 2 (39:39):
But.
Speaker 1 (39:42):
That type of rage, that type of rage left me
one day. It's not like, you know, it's not like
I worked on it. It was I did enough of
the spiritual work that all of a sudden I was
okay where I was doing what I was doing. And
that was just amazing, you know, to be okay where
you are doing what you're doing, because there really is
(40:04):
only only now.
Speaker 2 (40:05):
And there's only here.
Speaker 1 (40:07):
You know, and and why be upset about it?
Speaker 2 (40:10):
It's just ridiculous.
Speaker 1 (40:12):
So so I'm not telling you that if Clem could
diddle Hopper gets in front of me doing twenty miles
an hour and AO fifty, I'm not going to get
a little annoyed. I'm just not going to follow them
past my exit to re cut them off, you know
what I mean, I'll be able to drive the one car.
Speaker 2 (40:31):
So so that was removed. Fear of police was removed.
I mean, I don't know about anybody else.
Speaker 1 (40:37):
When you're driving down the road, all of a sudden
you see the red flashing lights, it's like, oh my god,
oh become a jesuit, you know, just let me get
out of this. That's the way it was for me.
And it never it never worked. They always pulled me over.
Speaker 2 (40:51):
You know.
Speaker 1 (40:51):
I remember this one time I got pulled over it
and I was so drunk.
Speaker 2 (40:55):
I was so drunk.
Speaker 1 (40:56):
I reached he goes licensed registration shirts car. I remember,
I just reached it to the glove compartment and it
was just I you know, I just couldn't deals. I've
handed them everything, you know, like handed them maps and
tissues and you know, all the pens and all this
stuff from the glove gud. I was so drunk, you know,
(41:17):
please step out of the car, you know.
Speaker 2 (41:18):
And it was like a big horrific thing.
Speaker 1 (41:20):
And I remember that they videotaped me because they were
they were big on that for a while.
Speaker 2 (41:25):
I guess.
Speaker 1 (41:25):
I guess they still are they And I remember going
to a lawyer and saying, I did really well on
the ABC's I want to fight this, okay, because I did.
I remembered that I got the ABCS. Well, I go
there with my lawyer and you know, we we uh,
we get the copy of the video, you know, as
(41:45):
part of our discovery, and we sit down and we
start watching it. And meanwhile, the cops are walking back
and forth out in the hallway and they're laughing.
Speaker 2 (41:53):
They can you can hear them laughing. You know.
Speaker 1 (41:56):
I guess that they had been using this for comic relief,
probably for the last couple of months. But anyway, I
know I nailed those ABCS.
Speaker 2 (42:04):
I nailed them.
Speaker 1 (42:06):
Well, we start watching the video and I'm horrified, has
anybody ever seen yourself really drunk on video? Oh it's ghastly,
it'll it'll And here's how I did the ABC's I mean,
that's exactly how I did him. And they have me
(42:28):
walk in the line and and they're they're video taping me.
I'm holding the wall while I'm walking the line there
like mister STROTI police take your heads off the wall
while you walk the line. And at the end of this,
they've got the camera. I mean, I'm sitting at the
desk and they go, is there anything that you want
to add before we turn the camera off?
Speaker 2 (42:46):
And I look at the camera and I do this.
Speaker 1 (42:50):
Well up and up until this point in time, my lawyer,
my lawyer had like composure.
Speaker 2 (42:56):
Right as soon as I did.
Speaker 1 (42:57):
That, he goes, wah ah, he's not slaving. He goes,
whatever small small chance we had of getting you off,
you just.
Speaker 2 (43:07):
Blew with that.
Speaker 1 (43:08):
Your tongue was slapping the side of your head back.
If I mean I've now, he goes, I've never seen
anything like that in my life. And I look at
him and I go, I guess we'll plead you know,
oh man, So so I walked for four years during
you know, the most important dating period of my life,
(43:31):
you know, the late eighties. Anyway, I mean, you know,
I was I was just an absolute maniac and you know,
I wondered why she left?
Speaker 2 (43:47):
Did? I mean, you know, and where are all the babes?
You know, it happened a guy like me.
Speaker 1 (43:55):
You know, I got to the point where I wasn't
even going to the bathroom anymore. I was throwing open
window and puking out the window. And you know, it's
like there's like a retirement community right next to my house,
you know, so there'd be like old people walking like
vomiting out the window, and yeah, where are the babes?
Speaker 2 (44:14):
Uh? I would be drunk.
Speaker 1 (44:17):
Out of my mind by about seven or eight o'clock
at night, in a complete blackout, and anybody, anybody here
a phoner, raise your hand, Come on you ever you
ever get really drunk and phone people up?
Speaker 2 (44:30):
Oh man? That used to horrifying me.
Speaker 1 (44:33):
I'd come downstairs and I'd have done it in a blackout.
So I'd look and there'd be little pieces of paper
all over the place with people.
Speaker 2 (44:39):
No.
Speaker 1 (44:40):
Not Mary little mcgillo, cunning from the fourth grade, don't no,
I called her? Oh no.
Speaker 2 (44:46):
You know.
Speaker 1 (44:46):
So it got to the point where I would cut
the telephone line. I'd start drinking and I'd cut the
phone line. Now I'm an electrician though, unfortunately, so I'd
get really drunk and i'd watch or not the lines
back together. Well, I started to get smart. I would
throw a ladder up on the side of the house
and reach as high up as I could with the
(45:07):
pliers and cut the line way up by the electrical lines. Well, well,
I'd get up there, so I put I'd put like
the ladder on top of a milk crate or something.
Speaker 2 (45:15):
I'd get up there and i'd put him back together.
Speaker 1 (45:17):
Well, it finally it got so bad that all you
hear is static in the lines, you know, because and
so so I called the phone company guy. The phone
company guy comes and he looks. He goes, what the
hell because it looks like it looks like the line
had been cut about thirty times in scotch tape back together,
(45:39):
because I've.
Speaker 2 (45:39):
Never seen anything like this in my life.
Speaker 1 (45:42):
And I go, oh, yeah, that's all I thought it was,
you know, bought the place with the like that, I mean, unbelievable. So,
I mean, you know, I lived in the past. Anybody
lived in the past. Anybody try to recapture the high
school party atmosphere, and you know, back when alcohol was working.
(46:03):
I mean you know, I'd call up all the people
I used to party and they'd be like, Chris, that
was twenty five years ago. You know, I'm a priest now,
you know or something.
Speaker 2 (46:15):
You know, don't call anymore here.
Speaker 1 (46:21):
Yeah, yeah, So it was it was really bad.
Speaker 2 (46:27):
Uh.
Speaker 1 (46:28):
When I started going out to make direct amends to
people that I had harmed, you know, people that I
had phoned, you know, anything, I had huge amounts of
of lists of people that I'd harm one way or
the other. I started to I started to get a
perspective on how to actually relate to people, you know.
Speaker 2 (46:48):
And today today I have so many friends that did.
It's some believable. I was searching for friends. I mean,
I'd buy the cocaine if.
Speaker 1 (46:56):
You'd be my friend, you know, and then I then
you'd disappoint me somehow, and I'd have to rob your guitars.
I mean, and it's just this outrageous nightmare type of
relationships I would have. But you know, today, practicing the principles,
and I don't profess to be an expert at these
principles or this book or this program or anything.
Speaker 2 (47:16):
I just have some experience, you know, the experience that.
Speaker 1 (47:20):
I've gotten from from practicing these principles.
Speaker 2 (47:24):
Has enabled me to.
Speaker 1 (47:27):
Have really good relationships. You know, I have an unbelievably
good relationship now with my wife.
Speaker 2 (47:33):
We've been married over ten years.
Speaker 1 (47:36):
I mean I never did anything for ten years in
a row. I could never keep anything together. I've got
really good relationships with my family. You know, my mother's
in a in a very deteriorative form right now. Her
body's really starting to give out. And I've spent a
lot of time in the last couple of months making
the house handicapped friendly for her. And you know, I
(48:00):
can get things done.
Speaker 2 (48:01):
That's what I do for a living. I can get
people to do things. That's really what a manager is.
And I know who.
Speaker 1 (48:09):
To call and where to call, and I've I've put
a lot of things into into places that are going
to be very, very helpful for her. I went from
being a terrible electrician to to running a big piece
of business where they actually give me about seven million
dollars in budget and say.
Speaker 2 (48:26):
Go for it.
Speaker 1 (48:27):
I can't even imagine that back when I was drinking.
Speaker 2 (48:31):
You know, you'd be you'd be afraid to lend me
five bucks, you know, let alone.
Speaker 1 (48:36):
Oh, here's Chris Hey, let's let's give let's give Chris
seven million dollars. Not even in a bad reality TV
show would you do that back then. So hut, about
sixty people work for me today, and I'm actually a
really compassionate yet efficient boss.
Speaker 2 (48:57):
Believe it or not. I did fire about forty of
them when I in there, just to get rid of
the dead wood. But you got to do that today,
you know. Uh. And but I now have.
Speaker 1 (49:06):
A really good, really good crew that you know, and
we're doing a great job and every everybody's happy except
that board member who had a buddy, so uh, you know,
so that's.
Speaker 2 (49:16):
Really going well. You know. All I all I can
tell you.
Speaker 1 (49:21):
Is these recovery principles are really the things that have
worked in my life.
Speaker 2 (49:29):
It's not it's not what I know, it's what I did.
Speaker 1 (49:32):
And the things that I did, uh had a cumulative effect,
and they all, uh, they all built up my ability
to deal and my quality of life.
Speaker 2 (49:45):
Uh, and for that, I'm very grateful.
Speaker 1 (49:47):
Now I hope everybody will uh will continue to Come
next week, we're gonna have Carrie and Pat are going
to be talking, uh and uh that's gonna be uh,
that's gonna be great.
Speaker 2 (49:58):
Yeah you guys next week.
Speaker 1 (49:59):
Yeah, Pat's looking around, so you don't want to miss that.
And there's there's twelve other speakers that are going to
be here over the course of the next three months,
sharing on different aspects of relationship, different types of relationships,
and how they've applied recovery principles. And it is an
(50:20):
open meeting. Bring anybody you want to bring. You can
even you can even bring those spouses that you want
to you want to sharpen up a little bit because
they're not acting right. You know, maybe we'll learn a
few things and you know, so please please do that.
Speaker 2 (50:36):
We have fifteen minutes left.
Speaker 1 (50:37):
It's open for sharing, for comments, for anything.
Speaker 2 (50:42):
Thank you.
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Dateline NBC
Current and classic episodes, featuring compelling true-crime mysteries, powerful documentaries and in-depth investigations. Follow now to get the latest episodes of Dateline NBC completely free, or subscribe to Dateline Premium for ad-free listening and exclusive bonus content: DatelinePremium.com
New Heights with Jason & Travis Kelce
Football’s funniest family duo — Jason Kelce of the Philadelphia Eagles and Travis Kelce of the Kansas City Chiefs — team up to provide next-level access to life in the league as it unfolds. The two brothers and Super Bowl champions drop weekly insights about the weekly slate of games and share their INSIDE perspectives on trending NFL news and sports headlines. They also endlessly rag on each other as brothers do, chat the latest in pop culture and welcome some very popular and well-known friends to chat with them. Check out new episodes every Wednesday. Follow New Heights on the Wondery App, YouTube or wherever you get your podcasts. You can listen to new episodes early and ad-free, and get exclusive content on Wondery+. Join Wondery+ in the Wondery App, Apple Podcasts or Spotify. And join our new membership for a unique fan experience by going to the New Heights YouTube channel now!