Today's segment is every parents worst nightmare. When it comes time to putting your baby/child into the care of someone else hands can be very nerve racking. For most us mommies and daddies this is a necessity as we enter back into the work force. For myself, I had a wonderful experience with my daughter's daycare and we can only hope this is a reality for every family. Unfortunately, the reality is there are evil people in the world who will hurt your precious child if they have the opportunity. When it comes to my two guests today, these mother's knew in their hearts and souls there was something very wrong with their babies. Please welcome the beautiful, strong, and resilient Sarah Deischer & Kristin Johnson Bott to the show. Two mother's who knew nothing of each other until they both realized their babies were being abused by the same woman. Their stories will not only bring tears to your eyes, but also anger, fear, and compassion. Not only did these two mother's have their precious children severely beaten almost to death, but you will learn how their strength put their abuser away in the system for 25 years. Today we will learn what signs to look out for, how to involve medical professionals and lastly to seek justice. Thank you to these amazing two moms for their vulnerability and resilience. This story has a very happy ending as their babies are now grown young adults! Both Sydney & Cameron are inspiring, successful, happy and healthy!
If you are in fear that your child is being abused please reach out to Safe Harbor and your local police department.
Meet These Fabulous Women:
Sarah Deischer is a dedicated Realtor and Managing Broker at Sprinkman Real Estate with a passion for guiding clients through one of life’s biggest transitions—buying or selling a home. With over 20 years of experience and a focus on personalized service, Sarah brings warmth, integrity, and expert market knowledge to every transaction.Beyond real estate, Sarah is also a proud mom of 2 adult children. This journey has been shaped by resilience. After her child survived abuse at the hands of a daycare provider, Sarah became a strong advocate for awareness and support for families navigating similar challenges. Her strength as a mother informs her work as a Realtor—helping others feel safe, supported, and empowered in the decisions that matter most.When she’s not serving her clients, you’ll often find Sarah enjoying live music, spending time at her lake property, rescuing feral cats or sharing her favorite recipes and family moments.
Kristin Johnson Bott is an educator, speaker, yoga/fitness instructor, and coach with over 30 years of experience helping people reduce stress and live healthier, more empowered lives. As the founder of Mindful Wellness LLC, she has worked with schools, companies, and individuals, offering strategies that bring clarity, resilience, and balance to everyday life.Her journey as a mom has been one of courage and advocacy. After her son endured abuse at the hands of a daycare provider, Kristin became determined to help him heal from nervous system dysfunction and be free of the effects of this abuse. She's worked with the court system and other families who've endured similar situations. Through mindfulness practices and consistent tools to restore safety and calm, she discovered approaches that now help countless others navigate trauma recovery and chronic stress.Beyond her work, Kristin is most proud of being a mom to three sons, each pursuing their own path. She is passionate about guiding others to discover strength in adversity, reconnect with themselves, and create a life of wellness, joy, and purpose.
If you are in fear that your child is being abused please reach out to Safe Harbor and your local police department.
Meet These Fabulous Women:
Sarah Deischer is a dedicated Realtor and Managing Broker at Sprinkman Real Estate with a passion for guiding clients through one of life’s biggest transitions—buying or selling a home. With over 20 years of experience and a focus on personalized service, Sarah brings warmth, integrity, and expert market knowledge to every transaction.Beyond real estate, Sarah is also a proud mom of 2 adult children. This journey has been shaped by resilience. After her child survived abuse at the hands of a daycare provider, Sarah became a strong advocate for awareness and support for families navigating similar challenges. Her strength as a mother informs her work as a Realtor—helping others feel safe, supported, and empowered in the decisions that matter most.When she’s not serving her clients, you’ll often find Sarah enjoying live music, spending time at her lake property, rescuing feral cats or sharing her favorite recipes and family moments.
Kristin Johnson Bott is an educator, speaker, yoga/fitness instructor, and coach with over 30 years of experience helping people reduce stress and live healthier, more empowered lives. As the founder of Mindful Wellness LLC, she has worked with schools, companies, and individuals, offering strategies that bring clarity, resilience, and balance to everyday life.Her journey as a mom has been one of courage and advocacy. After her son endured abuse at the hands of a daycare provider, Kristin became determined to help him heal from nervous system dysfunction and be free of the effects of this abuse. She's worked with the court system and other families who've endured similar situations. Through mindfulness practices and consistent tools to restore safety and calm, she discovered approaches that now help countless others navigate trauma recovery and chronic stress.Beyond her work, Kristin is most proud of being a mom to three sons, each pursuing their own path. She is passionate about guiding others to discover strength in adversity, reconnect with themselves, and create a life of wellness, joy, and purpose.
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:01):
This is the Mad Town Mom Squad podcast, a production
of iHeartRadio. Hard working real mama's having real conversations. Now
sit back, relax, and get ready to talk mom life
with Christa and her squad.
Speaker 2 (00:14):
Well, Mama's welcome back to the Mad Town Mom Squad.
Speaker 3 (00:18):
It is Christa.
Speaker 2 (00:19):
First, before I begin this conversation that I want to
let you know this is going to be a very
delicate conversation and one that could trigger many of you.
So I just want to put that out there first
so you all understand this conversation is very delicate, and
it's one that I would say is extremely disturbing, and
(00:40):
I never wish this on anyone, but I'm so delighted
to have two of my fabulous friends in studio with me. First,
let me say hello to Miss Sarah Deischer. She is
a dedicated realtor, a managing broker at Sprinkmin real Estate
with a passion for guiding her clients through one of
life's biggest transitions. And I know this because she actually
(01:03):
got two of my homes and she's fabulous. Buying or
selling a home is what she does with over twenty
years of experience and focus on personalized service. Sarah definitely
brings warmth, she brings integrity, and she's definitely an expert
in our market and knowledge in every transaction. She's also
a beautiful mother of two. It also has an amazing husband, Jim.
(01:28):
Now say hello to another dear friend of mine. She's outstanding.
Her name is Kristin Johnson Bot. She is an educator,
she's a speaker. She's a yoga, fitness instructor and a
coach with over thirty years of experience helping people reduce
stress and live healthier, more empowered lives.
Speaker 3 (01:47):
And my goodness, do we need that more than ever.
Speaker 2 (01:50):
She is also the founder of Mindful Wellness LLC, and
she has worked with schools, companies and individuals offering strategies
that bring clarity, resilience, imbalance to every day life. Ladies,
thank you so much for being here today. And I
do want to let our listeners know that the way
you came together is actually how heartbreaking it is to
(02:14):
share mat tod. I want you to know that today
we are discussing two mothers who have experienced their babies
being abused by daycare workers.
Speaker 3 (02:23):
Ladies, welcome to the show.
Speaker 4 (02:24):
Thanks Krista, thank you, yes.
Speaker 2 (02:27):
Again, It's always so wonderful to see you both even
talking about this. Right now, I get very anxious, I
get very mad. My anxiety rides up, so I can
imagine what you both have gone through. So I appreciate
you sharing your story because it needs to be heard,
and people, especially parents, need to be educated when it
comes to signs to of course watching out for their
(02:51):
children who are being taken care of by other people. Sarah,
I'm going to start with you, how did you know
that your baby was being abused.
Speaker 3 (03:01):
By their daycare worker?
Speaker 4 (03:03):
So it started with little subtle things that were happening
in the month and a half that she was there.
One time we picked her up and she had a
bruise on her chin, and when we took her to
the doctor, we were diagnosed with handfoot and mouth disease,
so treated for that, and then back to daycare she went.
The next time, she had a bruise on her chest,
(03:25):
and when I questioned it, we were told that she
was having floor time and that the daycare provider's toddler
fell on her accidentally and hit her in the chest.
But the big day, the day that the major things happened,
I went to pick her up from daycare, and normally
I had stayed there to find out about her day
and sit down and nurse her and just chat about
(03:49):
how her day was. And I got there and the
house was in chaos, and I said, where is Sydney?
And she led me to a playpaper, And when I
looked at her, I knew right away that something terrible
had happened. She had a bright red nose, she had
broken capillaries all over her face. She was very listless
(04:11):
and glassy eyed. And so my husband was in grad
school at the time, so I called my mom, and
my mom met me at her house and we took
her into the urgent care and they said it probably
is febrow seizures that she had from having her immunizations.
(04:33):
So we went home and I tried to nurse her
and she couldn't nurse. That night, when my husband got
home from grad school, we took her into the emergency
room because she wasn't able to keep anything down. She
was vomiting again, was having like these seizure type moments,
and we were misdiagnosed a couple of times in the
emergency room, and they were saying, well, she probably might
(04:56):
have leukemia, she might have spinal meningitis, So they did
a spinal tap my four month old baby, but it
was pretty clear that something had happened, and my mother's
instinct told me it was something with her brain, and
so I asked for the pediatrician on call to be
called in and they did. They called him in and
he said, what would you like me to do? And
I said I would like a see tea scan on
(05:18):
her head, and they did a seata scan and that's
when they found all of the problems that had happened
with her.
Speaker 3 (05:25):
What type of things did they find?
Speaker 4 (05:28):
So they found she had subdural hematomas in two areas
of her brain, so bleeding up the brain in two spots.
She had retinal hemorrhaging in both eyes, meaning she could
go blind. Basically, we were told that if she survived,
she would be blind in both eyes and have cerebral palsy.
Speaker 2 (05:46):
And was this due to what type of violence was
this horrific caretaker doing to your baby?
Speaker 4 (05:52):
Well, ultimately she was shaking her and the bruise on
her chin and the bruise on her chest were from
her chin bouncing off of her chest, and she smothered
her to get her to stop crying, which is why
she had the bright red nose, and she dropped her
from her waist to the floor, causing her to have
more head trauma. So, yes, that's what happened.
Speaker 2 (06:16):
It's hard to even imagine something like this, Kristen. Unfortunately
you went through very similar path with the same person.
Speaker 5 (06:27):
Tell us your story correct.
Speaker 6 (06:30):
Unfortunately, Sarah and I didn't know each other except for
in passing at this time, so we were both somewhat
going home. We went home with similar stories, different things
that had happened that were small and could be what
we found out later in court, right, could be the
reason that the provider had told us. It could have
happened for that reason, but enough things would happen here
(06:52):
and there leading up to it. The thing I remember
most before that horrible day that Sarah's talking about that really,
I don't think either of us will ever forget. The
thing I remember most leading up to that is she
had a degree in early childhood development, and she sat
me down and said, well, your son is about at
the age where he's where separation anxiety kicks in, and
(07:15):
he's going to be you know, it's going to be
harder to drop him off, and just I would go
into school and the other staff would say, yep, that's true.
I remember dropping my child off and they'd cry and
he would reach for me. From that point on, he
would reach for me and scream and I would walk
out because that's what you're supposed to do. And so
I remember her saying that, and then I remember it
(07:37):
immediately almost getting worse that he didn't want to go there.
And so we had some things we had. There was
one time there was a burn on him. There were
a couple different marks, and then he had the red
nose too, which we ended up having diagnosed as some
form of a rash. And I remember asking, you know,
over and over again, that doesn't make sense, and the
(07:59):
doctor literally said to me he called him Rudeolph, And
he said, oh, if I pulled up and opened a
book about this, you would see a picture just like this.
We should take his picture and put it in there.
So I feel like I knew something wasn't good. I
would be I would take him in, I would ask questions.
He was there part time. I was doing a job share,
(08:21):
so he would be there. Then he wouldn't for a while,
And then that really horrible day. One of the things
I try to share, and I know Sarah and I've
both done a lot of advocacy. I remember, he was
my first child, and this is Sarah's first child, so
she took only parents with new babies. We found out
later because some things and kids who couldn't talk, some
(08:44):
things that are a little the abuser. Some things are
easier to get by that way. And so I remember thinking,
you know, we took our parenting classes and they talked
about shaking baby syndrome. But I didn't pay a lot
of attention because I knew, I knew not.
Speaker 3 (08:59):
To do it.
Speaker 6 (09:00):
But I wish I had paid attention to the symptoms
because those he had all of them.
Speaker 5 (09:05):
That day.
Speaker 6 (09:05):
He couldn't nurse, He had a high pitched cry, just
a weird cry. It was in his normal cry, super lethargic,
super and all of these things that when I brought
him in that that wasn't something that came to anybody's mind.
You know, it was maybe he's fighting something off and
he has a rash, and you know, there.
Speaker 5 (09:24):
Were too many ants, if that makes sense.
Speaker 2 (09:26):
How did you come to this conclusion, each of you
that this is definitely abuse? That this woman caretaker is
doing to your babies. How did you both come to
that line?
Speaker 4 (09:38):
Well, not to speak for Kristen, but I think I
can speak for both of us. I think we both
just mother's instinct kicked in and in my mind, I
knew that something terrible had happened. The energy in that
home the day that I picked her up, when all
of the bad things happened, was not good energy. And
like I said, and I normally would stay and talk
(10:00):
with her and nurse her, and I just was like,
I got to get her out of here. I'm on
to her. I know something happened, and so it was
my instinct, and I'm glad that I listened to my
instinct as the first time mom. Like Kristen said, there
were things that were always they made sense, like after
you went to the doctor, Yes, that makes sense, that
definitely could be that. And I would look up things
(10:21):
in my parenting books after the fact and it all
made sense. But at that day, my instinct, my heart
told me. My head and my heart were telling me
that this was child abuse.
Speaker 6 (10:32):
And my story is a little bit different. I like
to think of one as a side note. When this
did go public, there were people who called in that
had had this daycare provider too, and said, well what
about this and what about that? And I remember my
husband at the time was so angry because some of
those were the same people we called for references before
we used her. And so in a lot of ways,
(10:55):
your brain doesn't go there. It doesn't like to think
that that can happen. So my story is a little
bit different. I remember saying to one of the care providers,
is there any way this could have been done to him?
I just remember saying those words like this doesn't make sense.
Speaker 5 (11:10):
Could this have been done to him? And they said no.
Speaker 6 (11:13):
And then the when I knew for sure was when
so Sydney's daughter was in the hospital. And then the
because they had to open up an investigation, they had
the daycare provider call me and she said, I can't
watch your son anymore. And I said, does this have
this has to have to do with all these things?
(11:35):
And I said, Mom to mom, I need to know
what's wrong with him, because no one can help him.
They keep sending him home and I know something's wrong.
And then the detective cut through and said, can you
tell us what's wrong?
Speaker 5 (11:46):
And we'll pick you up and take you to the hospital.
Speaker 6 (11:48):
And then he we found too, had several four subdural
hematomas and things like that that we you know, that
hadn't been looked at until they had found out about
their daughter.
Speaker 2 (12:01):
Right, So, as both moms with your instincts telling yourselves
there's something wrong here, this isn't normal. You bring them
to the hospital. Caretakers, medical doctors are talking to you,
but there are they not seeing though the truth and
what is actually happening. How did how do we come
to seeing the medical staff to getting now the law
(12:26):
included on this.
Speaker 6 (12:27):
I think because there was a doctor and Sarah, you
can jump in if you wish there was a doctor.
And from what we heard, he actually originally got in
trouble at UW.
Speaker 5 (12:40):
He was from Chicago.
Speaker 6 (12:41):
He had done some of his undergrid or understudy in
New York, and he immediately went to what if this
is abuse and asked for some certain tests once they
got the results of.
Speaker 5 (12:56):
The scans and stuff like that.
Speaker 6 (12:58):
So he had done something to aniate that, which is
I believe how the how there was an initial call
to the police, okay, and then once we were involved,
and then we both separately shared everything we had, We
had pictures, we had things that we had documented written down,
you know, we had all of our different times that
(13:18):
we went into the doctor and that kind of thing,
and unfortunately we weren't able to see our actual provider,
doctor literal until toward the end of this when she
did the paperwork for when I saw her, she did
paperwork for the police.
Speaker 5 (13:32):
To hand over.
Speaker 6 (13:33):
And what she had said to me, I'll never forget,
and I think it's really important for parents to hear this.
Speaker 5 (13:38):
She looked through.
Speaker 6 (13:39):
Everything because every time we went in it was an
emergency visit, so it wasn't her that we had seen.
And she said, as soon as there are too many
reasons for something, you know, he has this wrong, and
oh it's maybe it's that wrong, and there's another thing
that might be wrong, and there's all these separate things,
you're missing the main thing. And she said someone should
have looked at the picture and said something needs to
(14:03):
explain all of these six injuries. Yes, and only one
thing could have done that.
Speaker 3 (14:08):
So your doctor knew and she stood up for you.
Speaker 6 (14:11):
Yes, that was a little bit down the road, that
wasn't initial.
Speaker 3 (14:15):
But yes, God bless that doctor.
Speaker 2 (14:18):
Absolutely, Yes, Sarah was that the same type of experience
for you or for us.
Speaker 4 (14:23):
Because we were the first family into the hospital when
I had speculation that it was abuse and I'd asked
for the CT scan. They did the CT scan and
they found all of the things, and they came back
to us and said, well, we have good news and
bad news. The good news is we know what's wrong.
The bad news is is now they're looking at you
(14:45):
as a perpetrator.
Speaker 3 (14:47):
Oh my goodness.
Speaker 4 (14:48):
So my husband and I were taken in separate rooms
by different police officers and interviewed and within seconds they
knew we hadn't done it. So that's when they call
called the daycare provider and basically our detective, who I
think is so amazing, like he's retired now, but he's incredible.
(15:11):
He used forensic psychology on her and basically said to her,
we don't know how to treat these babies without knowing
what you did to them, and you can either be
tried for child abuse or you can be tried for murder.
So if we don't know how to treat them, we're
not going to know and they could die. So she
(15:32):
admitted to everything, and that was helpful in being able
to figure out how to treat our babies.
Speaker 2 (15:43):
So she admits, you go to court, tell us how
that experience was for both of you.
Speaker 4 (15:48):
So the court, the court case lasted three years, like
with the attorneys and everything lasted three years. Not the
actual in court, but negotiating with our attorney, which was
the state attorney, the assistant district attorney. That lasted about
(16:08):
three years. So it was from the time our babies
were abused to the time she was sentenced was three years.
So initially we were told that she may get five years,
and I said, if she gets five years, I'm going
to the media that the district attorney's office is soft
(16:29):
on child abuse, and Mama Bear came out. But we
had the most phenomenal assistant district attorney who had tried
cases like this before and she knew exactly what resources
to call in. She had an expert physician who pro
bono worked for the state on this, and he brought
(16:51):
in a forensic doll to show the amount of force
that needed to cause the damage to these baby's brains.
But we ended up doing a plea bargain, so she
plea bargained and we accepted the plea bargain, and then
we had we got to skip the trial, so we
went right to a sentencing hearing, and at the sentencing hearing,
(17:13):
we had a week long sentencing hearing that was very public,
like the media was in there every single day.
Speaker 6 (17:18):
And it's still it's still the longest sentencing hearing in Wisconsin.
That was part of the plea bargain was we were
both Sarah and I at first did not want a
plea bargain. We kept thinking what jury wouldn't find her
guilty and give her the worst of the worst first,
And the sort of the compromise was, no, you don't
(17:40):
want to put it in a jury's hands, we will do.
Speaker 5 (17:42):
The plea bargain.
Speaker 6 (17:43):
But what we did get to do is have a
full sentencing hearing where all of these people, we each
got to speak, and the forensics came in and everything
was shown so that the judge knew everything before creating
a sign.
Speaker 2 (17:56):
So this woman is sitting in court and you're looking
at her, Yes, how angry?
Speaker 3 (18:01):
How badly?
Speaker 2 (18:04):
Did you just want to go over there and beat
the living you know what I mean?
Speaker 4 (18:09):
I mean it was hard not to want to do
that because you're protecting your child. But at the end
of the day, your child needs their parents to be
able to be there and not sitting behind bars.
Speaker 3 (18:21):
So about strength, ladies, Yeah, it.
Speaker 4 (18:23):
Was definite strength. But it was very healing to be
able to sit in the jurors box and address her
face to face when we got to say when we
got to tell our victim our victim impact statements, and
it was very healing to be able to look at her.
Speaker 3 (18:45):
Did she look at you?
Speaker 4 (18:47):
She didn't, but the judge asked her to and then
she did.
Speaker 5 (18:50):
Yeah.
Speaker 4 (18:50):
So I think the court process was extremely difficult, just
because we didn't really know all of the things that
happened to our baby with the amount of force that
was needed for the damage that had happened. So that
was really hard. But we had a wonderful resource through
the DA's office. She was called a Victim Witness Specialist
(19:14):
and she's still with the DA's office. Her name is
Amy Brown. If you're out there, Amy, shout out.
Speaker 5 (19:19):
Because she probably saved my life.
Speaker 4 (19:21):
She was amazing, Yes, absolutely amazing. So she was there
by our sides and like telling us what is coming next, and.
Speaker 5 (19:30):
She told us not to come the day that they
had the doll.
Speaker 6 (19:33):
She told us both, this is the day you can
stay home, and we both we said, oh, if our
kids went through it, we need to see it, we
need to be there.
Speaker 4 (19:42):
Yes, So the week long sentencing hearing was complete, and
then we got to hear her sentence read to her,
and it was way more than we ever expected and
way more that we than we were ever prepared for.
But like almost felt like justice had been done.
Speaker 3 (20:00):
Tell us what justice was done.
Speaker 4 (20:02):
She got twenty five years in the system, so that's
a far cry from the five that we were originally told.
Fourteen of those were in prison and eleven years of
extended supervision, so she's still in extended supervision.
Speaker 6 (20:15):
And originally I think she did get out a tiny
bit early. But originally they had said eighteen years, so
that our kids were adults by the time she would
get out. Was the original that she had to at
least be in their truth and sentencing for eighteen years.
Speaker 3 (20:29):
What does that make you feel like today? Knowing that
this woman is free.
Speaker 4 (20:35):
She's got a lot of stipulations on where she can
live and what she can and can't do. And I
don't have any fear of her, and neither does Sydney
she's an adult now and she doesn't live in fear.
I think she was put through a lot of therapy
in prison, and I'm sure she wasn't looked upon kindly
(20:55):
in prison, because they don't look kindly upon child abusers.
So I have tried to forgive and move on because
I have to protect my heart and my piece and
just hold on to that is not healthy. So I
think that that's part of our healing process was to
(21:17):
do some advocacy, do some talking about what we've been through,
trying to help others not go through it, and then
I just had to forgive.
Speaker 3 (21:27):
That's I was going to ask you. Was that the
same for you, Christen this woman?
Speaker 6 (21:32):
Oh yes, I yeah. For you know, forgiving is a
weird thing. It isn't saying, and it takes a while
to wrap your head around that. It isn't saying what
she did was right or okay in any way, shape
or form.
Speaker 5 (21:44):
I'll be honest.
Speaker 6 (21:45):
It's a hook of a lot easier to get to
that place of forgiving because our kids did buy some
miracle and we were told over and over again it
was a miracle that.
Speaker 5 (21:55):
They did survive.
Speaker 6 (21:56):
That makes it a lot easier to you know, find
in your heart it's okay. Forgiveness means I free myself
of this. I don't wish to carry this with me anymore.
I want to put that energy into something positive that
could come from this instead, and so I do.
Speaker 5 (22:11):
I hope she got the help she needed.
Speaker 6 (22:13):
You have to have something, really you have to be
really messed up right to be able to do that.
And hopefully hopefully that you know, she got better on
some way, shape or form.
Speaker 5 (22:25):
But I do feel like justice was served.
Speaker 6 (22:27):
And like I said, it's certainly seeing that both Sarah
and I could bring some good out of this, and
that our kids, luckily each sing every single milestone, you know,
every milestone that came along was the biggest gift ever.
Speaker 5 (22:41):
Now we can look at it and.
Speaker 6 (22:42):
Say, look they're doing great, they're amazing, which is so wonderful.
But we didn't know it going through it. You know,
we never knew. I remember saying, well, will he be
able to this?
Speaker 2 (22:53):
You know?
Speaker 5 (22:53):
And well, we don't know.
Speaker 6 (22:54):
I mean, I remember the brain expert that testified saying,
I can be honest, I haven't seen anyone survived this,
so I can't really tell you what the long term
effects are and they have young brains and their brains
are still forming, so you know, perhaps there it will
be okay. And so each single time that we had
(23:14):
something little that was okay, I think that helped the
healing as well.
Speaker 4 (23:19):
And I can tell you that parents, if you're listening,
celebrate the temper tantrums, celebrate all of the things, because
you just never know. So I learned that when Sidney
would be misbehaving because I told her no, she couldn't
have a polypockets at Target, that it was okay that
I got to celebrate that she could have that meltdown
(23:42):
at the checkout laye in Target. And so celebrate those moments.
They're difficult and they're hard, but your baby, your child
can do that.
Speaker 5 (23:55):
They're all worth it. And they're learning emotional regulation too,
which so.
Speaker 2 (24:00):
I think it's very powerful for you, ladies to share
the fact that being able to forgive, how powerful that is,
because what that tells me is that she doesn't.
Speaker 5 (24:13):
Own you anymore, absolutely.
Speaker 6 (24:17):
Absolutely, And we definitely didn't want her to own our children, right.
We wanted them to be able to, you know, thrive
in whatever way possible. And even though this was horrific,
it was such a small part of their story.
Speaker 5 (24:32):
We knew their story was always first.
Speaker 6 (24:34):
We knew they were angels who sort of came and
made sure that this didn't happen to other people.
Speaker 5 (24:41):
And we knew that they.
Speaker 6 (24:43):
On some level were brave enough to endure it, so
we could And yeah, our job became helping them become
the best that they.
Speaker 2 (24:51):
Absolutely so with both their journeys of healing. Can you share,
because of course there's mama's listening right now that children
have been abused. What types of therapy or what types
of ways were very constructive and helped your children out?
Speaker 5 (25:12):
I can start that.
Speaker 6 (25:13):
Cameron, I think it was what was toughest with him.
Initially he didn't have the deep level of injuries that
Sydney had, so we spent most of our time praying vorn,
focusing on, you know, may she get better.
Speaker 5 (25:29):
And then in time I started.
Speaker 6 (25:31):
To see his where he was a little older, so
he definitely had post traumatic stress syndrome, and he would
stop breathing in the middle of the night from all
the times that she had suffocated him. And he would
if there was something like even a football game, which
he loved, if someone would yell just you know, sporadically,
(25:51):
he would maybe go under the table and just start
shaking and trigger couldn't get He was triggered a lot.
And so the good that came of that in the
long run is us just learning all of these little
strategies that he could do to be back in the moment,
to take a breath, or to you know, get something.
When he was little, it was easy because kids live
(26:12):
in the moment, so he could right away quickly come back.
As he got a little older, I would get calls
from school to come in and help because he had
been triggered, and so I would talk him through it.
But he did learn a whole lot of things that
he could do, and then learning that just neuroplasticity is
the best thing in the world. That our brain can
(26:33):
be wired a certain way, but we can learn how
to wire it differently.
Speaker 5 (26:37):
And so as he needed things, I.
Speaker 6 (26:40):
Kept learning more and more and more and using it
for him and for me really needing it too. And
in the long run, I think he will always say, well,
look at all the things that's sort of what I
teach now, and that's what I do with people. And
he'll say, look at all the good things that came
from that.
Speaker 5 (26:58):
So he has helped me. Yeah, probably more than I've
helped him.
Speaker 3 (27:01):
Oh my, gosh, what a strong young man.
Speaker 5 (27:04):
He definitely, Oh my, they both are amazing. Yeah.
Speaker 4 (27:08):
So for Sydney, she was only four months old, so
she most of everything for her, She had no recollection
of anything. Everything for her was just fixing her medically,
fixing her brain. And so we were doing daily trips
for head measurements because she had hydrocephalous which is water
(27:31):
on the brain, swelling of the brain, and they were
watching to make sure they didn't have to intervene medically
with surgery. So it was a lot of trips to
the medical professionals for that and to watch her vision.
And she was in a program birth to three through
the Wiseman Center where they watched like the electrical waves
(27:54):
of her brain and how her eyes communicated with her
brain and how her brain reacted to certain things. I'm
a very young age and we were told that her
brain was healing well. She has no she didn't have
any of the Cameron was four months older, so he
had that PTSD. Sidney didn't have any of that. Like
she was young enough. Eventually we had to tell them
(28:19):
that this happened to them because Google became a thing,
and when you googled anything about your parents, like you
google our name, and up came all this information about
the sentencing hearing and the public speaking that Christen and
I had done together. So we eventually had to tell
them about it. And when we sat her down to
tell her when she was ten, she first asked, why
(28:40):
would someone do this? And then she said, am I
going to die because of this? And we said no, like,
you're going to be a perfect human being. You're going
to grow to a ripe old age, and you're going
to do great things. And God put you and kept
you on this earth for a reason. Why is still
(29:00):
a question we don't know the answer to. So unfortunately
we don't have that answer, and I don't know that
we ever will. But she's doing amazing. She is getting
her masters in nursing and going to eventually go on
to become a nurse practitioner. And she's smart and she's beautiful,
and yes.
Speaker 3 (29:21):
So she was head of her class at one of
the heads of her class.
Speaker 2 (29:25):
I remember I remember just seeing her, you know, I
was so you know, she also babies, not my daughter's.
Speaker 3 (29:31):
Yeah, yeah, so.
Speaker 2 (29:33):
Yes, extraordinary, extraordinary, bright young woman, and I haven't had
the blessing of meeting your amazing son.
Speaker 3 (29:41):
Tell us how he is today. He is great.
Speaker 6 (29:43):
He is working with younger kids and athletes, and he
ended up being able to thank goodness because it was
his absolute love. He ended up being able to play
football luckily as alignment, so we didn't have the same
kind of you know, worries with had trauma and that
kind of thing. But so he played football in high
school and college and then ended up.
Speaker 5 (30:05):
Having a kinesiology degree.
Speaker 6 (30:07):
And now run Yeah, and he runs a jim in Appleton,
and he works with younger athletes and he is kids
love him.
Speaker 5 (30:17):
He is just one of those.
Speaker 6 (30:19):
I will get pictures all of the time from his
dad or from him or from someone I know in
the area of him showing up at a younger kid's
game and cheering them on and brightening their day, and
he's just he's yeah, his heart is humongous.
Speaker 3 (30:34):
Heroes, Yes, they are here. Children are heroes.
Speaker 4 (30:37):
So I have a little story after this all happened
with them. There was these kids were connected in a
way that nobody else. I mean, even at four months
and eight months there was a connection. And from that
point until I don't know Sidney was in elementary school,
anytime she got hurt, she said, I want Cameron the sweetest. Really,
(31:00):
when they were in school together, they weren't they weren't
in school together, or.
Speaker 3 (31:03):
They weren't in school together, but she would say.
Speaker 4 (31:05):
That every time. She'd say, can you just call Cameron?
I need Cameron.
Speaker 3 (31:09):
Goodness.
Speaker 2 (31:10):
Yeah, they'll forever be connected and close friends.
Speaker 3 (31:15):
Wow, that's very special. Well, you're you're I know sometimes we.
Speaker 2 (31:22):
Ask ourselves why did this happen to me? Did you
ever ask yourselves that? And do you have an answer?
Speaker 4 (31:29):
I asked myself that often during the process and in
the process. My husband is very like even keeled, very compassionate,
kind human, and he would say you're getting too angry,
and I would say, you're not angry enough. So I
was the one that was the angry part of our
(31:51):
relationship through this process, and I would always be like
why why us? But then again and turn it around
and turn it into something positive. I did a speaking
engagement at a Grand Rounds like a child abuse conference,
(32:12):
and I spoke to hundreds of physicians. I am not
an MD. I have a master's in business, but I
taught physicians how to diagnose child abuse, and when my
son was younger, he had RSV. We went to urgent
care to get some therapy and the physician that treated
(32:35):
him said, I saw you speak at a child abuse
conference and I diagnosed child abuse two weeks later. So
in my heart I knew that I had saved a baby,
and that is the why why us, because we were
willing to take this on and turn this into something positive,
(32:57):
and both of us have advocated together and separately, and
it's just been a passion. I've done less and less
as Sydney has gotten older, because I feel like our
story has been told over and over and over again.
But if I can save one more baby through telling
the story, then good.
Speaker 6 (33:15):
For us, and give one more parent permission to push
and be uncomfortable in an office where you say, I know.
Speaker 5 (33:23):
There's something more. What are you missing?
Speaker 2 (33:26):
You know?
Speaker 6 (33:26):
We're so taught to look up to and listen to
everything that's told to us, but yet I had a
similar story with in terms of even the provider that
told me that he could take a picture of Cameron
and put it in that book under impetitle came to
me later and I did something similar to Sarah with
(33:46):
the staff there, and he stood up and said, I
was narrowly thinking. We can never think that narrowly, And
he said it changed how he looks at patients, and
he said he realized that what he said might have
happened is looking at me thinking, well, of course she
isn't hurting your child, but not realizing how many people
(34:07):
have access to our children, so knowing that they are
the provider for the child, not us, and to think
from that direction can make a big difference.
Speaker 5 (34:17):
And I guess the why for me was a little
bit different.
Speaker 6 (34:20):
I got stuck for a while, so definitely we always
kind of laughed that Jim and I would be similar,
and Brian and Sarah were similar, so they were angry,
and I sort of my why turned to why didn't
I know sooner?
Speaker 5 (34:35):
Why didn't I do more? Why didn't I did some of.
Speaker 6 (34:37):
That for a while until I realized that was just
taking my energy away from exactly what I needed to
be doing. And I sort of figured out at some
point the why is because I can help him live
a healthy, normal life after this. This doesn't have to
be a life sentence, this can I can figure out
how that he does not have to be plagued with
(34:59):
us his whole life, and that that sort of drove
me to that place. And then I agree with both
of us trying to advocate or help whenever we can,
or get the word out or teach in any way
that we can.
Speaker 3 (35:12):
If that saves.
Speaker 6 (35:13):
Somebody else, and if it helps somebody else out there,
then you know the why.
Speaker 5 (35:17):
It does become clear.
Speaker 2 (35:18):
Like she said, strength, resilience is what you two are,
your children are.
Speaker 3 (35:25):
I remember, whatever your faith is.
Speaker 2 (35:27):
I went to Catholic college and I had nuns as teachers,
and I was going through a very dark time and
I asked her why is it that some people have
nothing happened in their life or other people are going
through so much pain? And she said, Chris, so the
ones that are going through struggles in life and pain
is the gold in God's eyes.
Speaker 3 (35:47):
You are the strong ones.
Speaker 2 (35:49):
And bless you both for advocating and taking such a
very disturbing and horrible thing that has happened to your
family and your children just amazing. So blessed you for
what you've gone through, and thank you for sharing your story.
I know you definitely have touched many people and definitely
have helped those maybe that I've been wondering, gosh, why
(36:13):
is this happening? Or when I pick up my child,
because you don't know. If you haven't been through it,
you don't know. So thank you for educating our community
and that. And you're just so beautiful, each of each
of you, and you're one of my dear friends.
Speaker 3 (36:27):
And I'm just so proud and I'm so proud of
your kids. So please tell them they.
Speaker 2 (36:32):
Are rock stars and that anytime they want to come
on you know, the podcast and speak as survivors of this,
there are warriors.
Speaker 3 (36:41):
I would love to have them. And again, I'm so
gracious for your time.
Speaker 5 (36:47):
Thank you, thank you so much. Yeah for sharing this.
It's important.
Speaker 2 (36:51):
Well again, if you yourself are going through a struggle
and need some help, please give yourself a voice and
be a voice for your child.
Speaker 3 (37:02):
Thank you so much.
Speaker 1 (37:04):
This is the Mattton Mom Squad podcast, a production of iHeartRadio.
Here every episode of Matton Mom Squad podcast available on
the iHeartRadio app, Apple Music, or wherever you listen to
your favorite podcasts.
This is the Mad Town Mom Squad podcast, a production
of iHeartRadio. Hard working real mama's having real conversations. Now
sit back, relax, and get ready to talk mom life
with Christa and her squad.
Speaker 2 (00:14):
Well, Mama's welcome back to the Mad Town Mom Squad.
Speaker 3 (00:18):
It is Christa.
Speaker 2 (00:19):
First, before I begin this conversation that I want to
let you know this is going to be a very
delicate conversation and one that could trigger many of you.
So I just want to put that out there first
so you all understand this conversation is very delicate, and
it's one that I would say is extremely disturbing, and
(00:40):
I never wish this on anyone, but I'm so delighted
to have two of my fabulous friends in studio with me. First,
let me say hello to Miss Sarah Deischer. She is
a dedicated realtor, a managing broker at Sprinkmin real Estate
with a passion for guiding her clients through one of
life's biggest transitions. And I know this because she actually
(01:03):
got two of my homes and she's fabulous. Buying or
selling a home is what she does with over twenty
years of experience and focus on personalized service. Sarah definitely
brings warmth, she brings integrity, and she's definitely an expert
in our market and knowledge in every transaction. She's also
a beautiful mother of two. It also has an amazing husband, Jim.
(01:28):
Now say hello to another dear friend of mine. She's outstanding.
Her name is Kristin Johnson Bot. She is an educator,
she's a speaker. She's a yoga, fitness instructor and a
coach with over thirty years of experience helping people reduce
stress and live healthier, more empowered lives.
Speaker 3 (01:47):
And my goodness, do we need that more than ever.
Speaker 2 (01:50):
She is also the founder of Mindful Wellness LLC, and
she has worked with schools, companies and individuals offering strategies
that bring clarity, resilience, imbalance to every day life. Ladies,
thank you so much for being here today. And I
do want to let our listeners know that the way
you came together is actually how heartbreaking it is to
(02:14):
share mat tod. I want you to know that today
we are discussing two mothers who have experienced their babies
being abused by daycare workers.
Speaker 3 (02:23):
Ladies, welcome to the show.
Speaker 4 (02:24):
Thanks Krista, thank you, yes.
Speaker 2 (02:27):
Again, It's always so wonderful to see you both even
talking about this. Right now, I get very anxious, I
get very mad. My anxiety rides up, so I can
imagine what you both have gone through. So I appreciate
you sharing your story because it needs to be heard,
and people, especially parents, need to be educated when it
comes to signs to of course watching out for their
(02:51):
children who are being taken care of by other people. Sarah,
I'm going to start with you, how did you know
that your baby was being abused.
Speaker 3 (03:01):
By their daycare worker?
Speaker 4 (03:03):
So it started with little subtle things that were happening
in the month and a half that she was there.
One time we picked her up and she had a
bruise on her chin, and when we took her to
the doctor, we were diagnosed with handfoot and mouth disease,
so treated for that, and then back to daycare she went.
The next time, she had a bruise on her chest,
(03:25):
and when I questioned it, we were told that she
was having floor time and that the daycare provider's toddler
fell on her accidentally and hit her in the chest.
But the big day, the day that the major things happened,
I went to pick her up from daycare, and normally
I had stayed there to find out about her day
and sit down and nurse her and just chat about
(03:49):
how her day was. And I got there and the
house was in chaos, and I said, where is Sydney?
And she led me to a playpaper, And when I
looked at her, I knew right away that something terrible
had happened. She had a bright red nose, she had
broken capillaries all over her face. She was very listless
(04:11):
and glassy eyed. And so my husband was in grad
school at the time, so I called my mom, and
my mom met me at her house and we took
her into the urgent care and they said it probably
is febrow seizures that she had from having her immunizations.
(04:33):
So we went home and I tried to nurse her
and she couldn't nurse. That night, when my husband got
home from grad school, we took her into the emergency
room because she wasn't able to keep anything down. She
was vomiting again, was having like these seizure type moments,
and we were misdiagnosed a couple of times in the
emergency room, and they were saying, well, she probably might
(04:56):
have leukemia, she might have spinal meningitis, So they did
a spinal tap my four month old baby, but it
was pretty clear that something had happened, and my mother's
instinct told me it was something with her brain, and
so I asked for the pediatrician on call to be
called in and they did. They called him in and
he said, what would you like me to do? And
I said I would like a see tea scan on
(05:18):
her head, and they did a seata scan and that's
when they found all of the problems that had happened
with her.
Speaker 3 (05:25):
What type of things did they find?
Speaker 4 (05:28):
So they found she had subdural hematomas in two areas
of her brain, so bleeding up the brain in two spots.
She had retinal hemorrhaging in both eyes, meaning she could
go blind. Basically, we were told that if she survived,
she would be blind in both eyes and have cerebral palsy.
Speaker 2 (05:46):
And was this due to what type of violence was
this horrific caretaker doing to your baby?
Speaker 4 (05:52):
Well, ultimately she was shaking her and the bruise on
her chin and the bruise on her chest were from
her chin bouncing off of her chest, and she smothered
her to get her to stop crying, which is why
she had the bright red nose, and she dropped her
from her waist to the floor, causing her to have
more head trauma. So, yes, that's what happened.
Speaker 2 (06:16):
It's hard to even imagine something like this, Kristen. Unfortunately
you went through very similar path with the same person.
Speaker 5 (06:27):
Tell us your story correct.
Speaker 6 (06:30):
Unfortunately, Sarah and I didn't know each other except for
in passing at this time, so we were both somewhat
going home. We went home with similar stories, different things
that had happened that were small and could be what
we found out later in court, right, could be the
reason that the provider had told us. It could have
happened for that reason, but enough things would happen here
(06:52):
and there leading up to it. The thing I remember
most before that horrible day that Sarah's talking about that really,
I don't think either of us will ever forget. The
thing I remember most leading up to that is she
had a degree in early childhood development, and she sat
me down and said, well, your son is about at
the age where he's where separation anxiety kicks in, and
(07:15):
he's going to be you know, it's going to be
harder to drop him off, and just I would go
into school and the other staff would say, yep, that's true.
I remember dropping my child off and they'd cry and
he would reach for me. From that point on, he
would reach for me and scream and I would walk
out because that's what you're supposed to do. And so
I remember her saying that, and then I remember it
(07:37):
immediately almost getting worse that he didn't want to go there.
And so we had some things we had. There was
one time there was a burn on him. There were
a couple different marks, and then he had the red
nose too, which we ended up having diagnosed as some
form of a rash. And I remember asking, you know,
over and over again, that doesn't make sense, and the
(07:59):
doctor literally said to me he called him Rudeolph, And
he said, oh, if I pulled up and opened a
book about this, you would see a picture just like this.
We should take his picture and put it in there.
So I feel like I knew something wasn't good. I
would be I would take him in, I would ask questions.
He was there part time. I was doing a job share,
(08:21):
so he would be there. Then he wouldn't for a while,
And then that really horrible day. One of the things
I try to share, and I know Sarah and I've
both done a lot of advocacy. I remember, he was
my first child, and this is Sarah's first child, so
she took only parents with new babies. We found out
later because some things and kids who couldn't talk, some
(08:44):
things that are a little the abuser. Some things are
easier to get by that way. And so I remember thinking,
you know, we took our parenting classes and they talked
about shaking baby syndrome. But I didn't pay a lot
of attention because I knew, I knew not.
Speaker 3 (08:59):
To do it.
Speaker 6 (09:00):
But I wish I had paid attention to the symptoms
because those he had all of them.
Speaker 5 (09:05):
That day.
Speaker 6 (09:05):
He couldn't nurse, He had a high pitched cry, just
a weird cry. It was in his normal cry, super lethargic,
super and all of these things that when I brought
him in that that wasn't something that came to anybody's mind.
You know, it was maybe he's fighting something off and
he has a rash, and you know, there.
Speaker 5 (09:24):
Were too many ants, if that makes sense.
Speaker 2 (09:26):
How did you come to this conclusion, each of you
that this is definitely abuse? That this woman caretaker is
doing to your babies. How did you both come to
that line?
Speaker 4 (09:38):
Well, not to speak for Kristen, but I think I
can speak for both of us. I think we both
just mother's instinct kicked in and in my mind, I
knew that something terrible had happened. The energy in that
home the day that I picked her up, when all
of the bad things happened, was not good energy. And
like I said, and I normally would stay and talk
(10:00):
with her and nurse her, and I just was like,
I got to get her out of here. I'm on
to her. I know something happened, and so it was
my instinct, and I'm glad that I listened to my
instinct as the first time mom. Like Kristen said, there
were things that were always they made sense, like after
you went to the doctor, Yes, that makes sense, that
definitely could be that. And I would look up things
(10:21):
in my parenting books after the fact and it all
made sense. But at that day, my instinct, my heart
told me. My head and my heart were telling me
that this was child abuse.
Speaker 6 (10:32):
And my story is a little bit different. I like
to think of one as a side note. When this
did go public, there were people who called in that
had had this daycare provider too, and said, well what
about this and what about that? And I remember my
husband at the time was so angry because some of
those were the same people we called for references before
we used her. And so in a lot of ways,
(10:55):
your brain doesn't go there. It doesn't like to think
that that can happen. So my story is a little
bit different. I remember saying to one of the care providers,
is there any way this could have been done to him?
I just remember saying those words like this doesn't make sense.
Speaker 5 (11:10):
Could this have been done to him? And they said no.
Speaker 6 (11:13):
And then the when I knew for sure was when
so Sydney's daughter was in the hospital. And then the
because they had to open up an investigation, they had
the daycare provider call me and she said, I can't
watch your son anymore. And I said, does this have
this has to have to do with all these things?
(11:35):
And I said, Mom to mom, I need to know
what's wrong with him, because no one can help him.
They keep sending him home and I know something's wrong.
And then the detective cut through and said, can you
tell us what's wrong?
Speaker 5 (11:46):
And we'll pick you up and take you to the hospital.
Speaker 6 (11:48):
And then he we found too, had several four subdural
hematomas and things like that that we you know, that
hadn't been looked at until they had found out about
their daughter.
Speaker 2 (12:01):
Right, So, as both moms with your instincts telling yourselves
there's something wrong here, this isn't normal. You bring them
to the hospital. Caretakers, medical doctors are talking to you,
but there are they not seeing though the truth and
what is actually happening. How did how do we come
to seeing the medical staff to getting now the law
(12:26):
included on this.
Speaker 6 (12:27):
I think because there was a doctor and Sarah, you
can jump in if you wish there was a doctor.
And from what we heard, he actually originally got in
trouble at UW.
Speaker 5 (12:40):
He was from Chicago.
Speaker 6 (12:41):
He had done some of his undergrid or understudy in
New York, and he immediately went to what if this
is abuse and asked for some certain tests once they
got the results of.
Speaker 5 (12:56):
The scans and stuff like that.
Speaker 6 (12:58):
So he had done something to aniate that, which is
I believe how the how there was an initial call
to the police, okay, and then once we were involved,
and then we both separately shared everything we had, We
had pictures, we had things that we had documented written down,
you know, we had all of our different times that
(13:18):
we went into the doctor and that kind of thing,
and unfortunately we weren't able to see our actual provider,
doctor literal until toward the end of this when she
did the paperwork for when I saw her, she did
paperwork for the police.
Speaker 5 (13:32):
To hand over.
Speaker 6 (13:33):
And what she had said to me, I'll never forget,
and I think it's really important for parents to hear this.
Speaker 5 (13:38):
She looked through.
Speaker 6 (13:39):
Everything because every time we went in it was an
emergency visit, so it wasn't her that we had seen.
And she said, as soon as there are too many
reasons for something, you know, he has this wrong, and
oh it's maybe it's that wrong, and there's another thing
that might be wrong, and there's all these separate things,
you're missing the main thing. And she said someone should
have looked at the picture and said something needs to
(14:03):
explain all of these six injuries. Yes, and only one
thing could have done that.
Speaker 3 (14:08):
So your doctor knew and she stood up for you.
Speaker 6 (14:11):
Yes, that was a little bit down the road, that
wasn't initial.
Speaker 3 (14:15):
But yes, God bless that doctor.
Speaker 2 (14:18):
Absolutely, Yes, Sarah was that the same type of experience
for you or for us.
Speaker 4 (14:23):
Because we were the first family into the hospital when
I had speculation that it was abuse and I'd asked
for the CT scan. They did the CT scan and
they found all of the things, and they came back
to us and said, well, we have good news and
bad news. The good news is we know what's wrong.
The bad news is is now they're looking at you
(14:45):
as a perpetrator.
Speaker 3 (14:47):
Oh my goodness.
Speaker 4 (14:48):
So my husband and I were taken in separate rooms
by different police officers and interviewed and within seconds they
knew we hadn't done it. So that's when they call
called the daycare provider and basically our detective, who I
think is so amazing, like he's retired now, but he's incredible.
(15:11):
He used forensic psychology on her and basically said to her,
we don't know how to treat these babies without knowing
what you did to them, and you can either be
tried for child abuse or you can be tried for murder.
So if we don't know how to treat them, we're
not going to know and they could die. So she
(15:32):
admitted to everything, and that was helpful in being able
to figure out how to treat our babies.
Speaker 2 (15:43):
So she admits, you go to court, tell us how
that experience was for both of you.
Speaker 4 (15:48):
So the court, the court case lasted three years, like
with the attorneys and everything lasted three years. Not the
actual in court, but negotiating with our attorney, which was
the state attorney, the assistant district attorney. That lasted about
(16:08):
three years. So it was from the time our babies
were abused to the time she was sentenced was three years.
So initially we were told that she may get five years,
and I said, if she gets five years, I'm going
to the media that the district attorney's office is soft
(16:29):
on child abuse, and Mama Bear came out. But we
had the most phenomenal assistant district attorney who had tried
cases like this before and she knew exactly what resources
to call in. She had an expert physician who pro
bono worked for the state on this, and he brought
(16:51):
in a forensic doll to show the amount of force
that needed to cause the damage to these baby's brains.
But we ended up doing a plea bargain, so she
plea bargained and we accepted the plea bargain, and then
we had we got to skip the trial, so we
went right to a sentencing hearing, and at the sentencing hearing,
(17:13):
we had a week long sentencing hearing that was very public,
like the media was in there every single day.
Speaker 6 (17:18):
And it's still it's still the longest sentencing hearing in Wisconsin.
That was part of the plea bargain was we were
both Sarah and I at first did not want a
plea bargain. We kept thinking what jury wouldn't find her
guilty and give her the worst of the worst first,
And the sort of the compromise was, no, you don't
(17:40):
want to put it in a jury's hands, we will do.
Speaker 5 (17:42):
The plea bargain.
Speaker 6 (17:43):
But what we did get to do is have a
full sentencing hearing where all of these people, we each
got to speak, and the forensics came in and everything
was shown so that the judge knew everything before creating
a sign.
Speaker 2 (17:56):
So this woman is sitting in court and you're looking
at her, Yes, how angry?
Speaker 3 (18:01):
How badly?
Speaker 2 (18:04):
Did you just want to go over there and beat
the living you know what I mean?
Speaker 4 (18:09):
I mean it was hard not to want to do
that because you're protecting your child. But at the end
of the day, your child needs their parents to be
able to be there and not sitting behind bars.
Speaker 3 (18:21):
So about strength, ladies, Yeah, it.
Speaker 4 (18:23):
Was definite strength. But it was very healing to be
able to sit in the jurors box and address her
face to face when we got to say when we
got to tell our victim our victim impact statements, and
it was very healing to be able to look at her.
Speaker 3 (18:45):
Did she look at you?
Speaker 4 (18:47):
She didn't, but the judge asked her to and then
she did.
Speaker 5 (18:50):
Yeah.
Speaker 4 (18:50):
So I think the court process was extremely difficult, just
because we didn't really know all of the things that
happened to our baby with the amount of force that
was needed for the damage that had happened. So that
was really hard. But we had a wonderful resource through
the DA's office. She was called a Victim Witness Specialist
(19:14):
and she's still with the DA's office. Her name is
Amy Brown. If you're out there, Amy, shout out.
Speaker 5 (19:19):
Because she probably saved my life.
Speaker 4 (19:21):
She was amazing, Yes, absolutely amazing. So she was there
by our sides and like telling us what is coming next, and.
Speaker 5 (19:30):
She told us not to come the day that they
had the doll.
Speaker 6 (19:33):
She told us both, this is the day you can
stay home, and we both we said, oh, if our
kids went through it, we need to see it, we
need to be there.
Speaker 4 (19:42):
Yes, So the week long sentencing hearing was complete, and
then we got to hear her sentence read to her,
and it was way more than we ever expected and
way more that we than we were ever prepared for.
But like almost felt like justice had been done.
Speaker 3 (20:00):
Tell us what justice was done.
Speaker 4 (20:02):
She got twenty five years in the system, so that's
a far cry from the five that we were originally told.
Fourteen of those were in prison and eleven years of
extended supervision, so she's still in extended supervision.
Speaker 6 (20:15):
And originally I think she did get out a tiny
bit early. But originally they had said eighteen years, so
that our kids were adults by the time she would
get out. Was the original that she had to at
least be in their truth and sentencing for eighteen years.
Speaker 3 (20:29):
What does that make you feel like today? Knowing that
this woman is free.
Speaker 4 (20:35):
She's got a lot of stipulations on where she can
live and what she can and can't do. And I
don't have any fear of her, and neither does Sydney
she's an adult now and she doesn't live in fear.
I think she was put through a lot of therapy
in prison, and I'm sure she wasn't looked upon kindly
(20:55):
in prison, because they don't look kindly upon child abusers.
So I have tried to forgive and move on because
I have to protect my heart and my piece and
just hold on to that is not healthy. So I
think that that's part of our healing process was to
(21:17):
do some advocacy, do some talking about what we've been through,
trying to help others not go through it, and then
I just had to forgive.
Speaker 3 (21:27):
That's I was going to ask you. Was that the
same for you, Christen this woman?
Speaker 6 (21:32):
Oh yes, I yeah. For you know, forgiving is a
weird thing. It isn't saying, and it takes a while
to wrap your head around that. It isn't saying what
she did was right or okay in any way, shape
or form.
Speaker 5 (21:44):
I'll be honest.
Speaker 6 (21:45):
It's a hook of a lot easier to get to
that place of forgiving because our kids did buy some
miracle and we were told over and over again it
was a miracle that.
Speaker 5 (21:55):
They did survive.
Speaker 6 (21:56):
That makes it a lot easier to you know, find
in your heart it's okay. Forgiveness means I free myself
of this. I don't wish to carry this with me anymore.
I want to put that energy into something positive that
could come from this instead, and so I do.
Speaker 5 (22:11):
I hope she got the help she needed.
Speaker 6 (22:13):
You have to have something, really you have to be
really messed up right to be able to do that.
And hopefully hopefully that you know, she got better on
some way, shape or form.
Speaker 5 (22:25):
But I do feel like justice was served.
Speaker 6 (22:27):
And like I said, it's certainly seeing that both Sarah
and I could bring some good out of this, and
that our kids, luckily each sing every single milestone, you know,
every milestone that came along was the biggest gift ever.
Speaker 5 (22:41):
Now we can look at it and.
Speaker 6 (22:42):
Say, look they're doing great, they're amazing, which is so wonderful.
But we didn't know it going through it. You know,
we never knew. I remember saying, well, will he be
able to this?
Speaker 2 (22:53):
You know?
Speaker 5 (22:53):
And well, we don't know.
Speaker 6 (22:54):
I mean, I remember the brain expert that testified saying,
I can be honest, I haven't seen anyone survived this,
so I can't really tell you what the long term
effects are and they have young brains and their brains
are still forming, so you know, perhaps there it will
be okay. And so each single time that we had
(23:14):
something little that was okay, I think that helped the
healing as well.
Speaker 4 (23:19):
And I can tell you that parents, if you're listening,
celebrate the temper tantrums, celebrate all of the things, because
you just never know. So I learned that when Sidney
would be misbehaving because I told her no, she couldn't
have a polypockets at Target, that it was okay that
I got to celebrate that she could have that meltdown
(23:42):
at the checkout laye in Target. And so celebrate those moments.
They're difficult and they're hard, but your baby, your child
can do that.
Speaker 5 (23:55):
They're all worth it. And they're learning emotional regulation too,
which so.
Speaker 2 (24:00):
I think it's very powerful for you, ladies to share
the fact that being able to forgive, how powerful that is,
because what that tells me is that she doesn't.
Speaker 5 (24:13):
Own you anymore, absolutely.
Speaker 6 (24:17):
Absolutely, And we definitely didn't want her to own our children, right.
We wanted them to be able to, you know, thrive
in whatever way possible. And even though this was horrific,
it was such a small part of their story.
Speaker 5 (24:32):
We knew their story was always first.
Speaker 6 (24:34):
We knew they were angels who sort of came and
made sure that this didn't happen to other people.
Speaker 5 (24:41):
And we knew that they.
Speaker 6 (24:43):
On some level were brave enough to endure it, so
we could And yeah, our job became helping them become
the best that they.
Speaker 2 (24:51):
Absolutely so with both their journeys of healing. Can you share,
because of course there's mama's listening right now that children
have been abused. What types of therapy or what types
of ways were very constructive and helped your children out?
Speaker 5 (25:12):
I can start that.
Speaker 6 (25:13):
Cameron, I think it was what was toughest with him.
Initially he didn't have the deep level of injuries that
Sydney had, so we spent most of our time praying vorn,
focusing on, you know, may she get better.
Speaker 5 (25:29):
And then in time I started.
Speaker 6 (25:31):
To see his where he was a little older, so
he definitely had post traumatic stress syndrome, and he would
stop breathing in the middle of the night from all
the times that she had suffocated him. And he would
if there was something like even a football game, which
he loved, if someone would yell just you know, sporadically,
(25:51):
he would maybe go under the table and just start
shaking and trigger couldn't get He was triggered a lot.
And so the good that came of that in the
long run is us just learning all of these little
strategies that he could do to be back in the moment,
to take a breath, or to you know, get something.
When he was little, it was easy because kids live
(26:12):
in the moment, so he could right away quickly come back.
As he got a little older, I would get calls
from school to come in and help because he had
been triggered, and so I would talk him through it.
But he did learn a whole lot of things that
he could do, and then learning that just neuroplasticity is
the best thing in the world. That our brain can
(26:33):
be wired a certain way, but we can learn how
to wire it differently.
Speaker 5 (26:37):
And so as he needed things, I.
Speaker 6 (26:40):
Kept learning more and more and more and using it
for him and for me really needing it too. And
in the long run, I think he will always say, well,
look at all the things that's sort of what I
teach now, and that's what I do with people. And
he'll say, look at all the good things that came
from that.
Speaker 5 (26:58):
So he has helped me. Yeah, probably more than I've
helped him.
Speaker 3 (27:01):
Oh my, gosh, what a strong young man.
Speaker 5 (27:04):
He definitely, Oh my, they both are amazing. Yeah.
Speaker 4 (27:08):
So for Sydney, she was only four months old, so
she most of everything for her, She had no recollection
of anything. Everything for her was just fixing her medically,
fixing her brain. And so we were doing daily trips
for head measurements because she had hydrocephalous which is water
(27:31):
on the brain, swelling of the brain, and they were
watching to make sure they didn't have to intervene medically
with surgery. So it was a lot of trips to
the medical professionals for that and to watch her vision.
And she was in a program birth to three through
the Wiseman Center where they watched like the electrical waves
(27:54):
of her brain and how her eyes communicated with her
brain and how her brain reacted to certain things. I'm
a very young age and we were told that her
brain was healing well. She has no she didn't have
any of the Cameron was four months older, so he
had that PTSD. Sidney didn't have any of that. Like
she was young enough. Eventually we had to tell them
(28:19):
that this happened to them because Google became a thing,
and when you googled anything about your parents, like you
google our name, and up came all this information about
the sentencing hearing and the public speaking that Christen and
I had done together. So we eventually had to tell
them about it. And when we sat her down to
tell her when she was ten, she first asked, why
(28:40):
would someone do this? And then she said, am I
going to die because of this? And we said no, like,
you're going to be a perfect human being. You're going
to grow to a ripe old age, and you're going
to do great things. And God put you and kept
you on this earth for a reason. Why is still
(29:00):
a question we don't know the answer to. So unfortunately
we don't have that answer, and I don't know that
we ever will. But she's doing amazing. She is getting
her masters in nursing and going to eventually go on
to become a nurse practitioner. And she's smart and she's beautiful,
and yes.
Speaker 3 (29:21):
So she was head of her class at one of
the heads of her class.
Speaker 2 (29:25):
I remember I remember just seeing her, you know, I
was so you know, she also babies, not my daughter's.
Speaker 3 (29:31):
Yeah, yeah, so.
Speaker 2 (29:33):
Yes, extraordinary, extraordinary, bright young woman, and I haven't had
the blessing of meeting your amazing son.
Speaker 3 (29:41):
Tell us how he is today. He is great.
Speaker 6 (29:43):
He is working with younger kids and athletes, and he
ended up being able to thank goodness because it was
his absolute love. He ended up being able to play
football luckily as alignment, so we didn't have the same
kind of you know, worries with had trauma and that
kind of thing. But so he played football in high
school and college and then ended up.
Speaker 5 (30:05):
Having a kinesiology degree.
Speaker 6 (30:07):
And now run Yeah, and he runs a jim in Appleton,
and he works with younger athletes and he is kids
love him.
Speaker 5 (30:17):
He is just one of those.
Speaker 6 (30:19):
I will get pictures all of the time from his
dad or from him or from someone I know in
the area of him showing up at a younger kid's
game and cheering them on and brightening their day, and
he's just he's yeah, his heart is humongous.
Speaker 3 (30:34):
Heroes, Yes, they are here. Children are heroes.
Speaker 4 (30:37):
So I have a little story after this all happened
with them. There was these kids were connected in a
way that nobody else. I mean, even at four months
and eight months there was a connection. And from that
point until I don't know Sidney was in elementary school,
anytime she got hurt, she said, I want Cameron the sweetest. Really,
(31:00):
when they were in school together, they weren't they weren't
in school together, or.
Speaker 3 (31:03):
They weren't in school together, but she would say.
Speaker 4 (31:05):
That every time. She'd say, can you just call Cameron?
I need Cameron.
Speaker 3 (31:09):
Goodness.
Speaker 2 (31:10):
Yeah, they'll forever be connected and close friends.
Speaker 3 (31:15):
Wow, that's very special. Well, you're you're I know sometimes we.
Speaker 2 (31:22):
Ask ourselves why did this happen to me? Did you
ever ask yourselves that? And do you have an answer?
Speaker 4 (31:29):
I asked myself that often during the process and in
the process. My husband is very like even keeled, very compassionate,
kind human, and he would say you're getting too angry,
and I would say, you're not angry enough. So I
was the one that was the angry part of our
(31:51):
relationship through this process, and I would always be like
why why us? But then again and turn it around
and turn it into something positive. I did a speaking
engagement at a Grand Rounds like a child abuse conference,
(32:12):
and I spoke to hundreds of physicians. I am not
an MD. I have a master's in business, but I
taught physicians how to diagnose child abuse, and when my
son was younger, he had RSV. We went to urgent
care to get some therapy and the physician that treated
(32:35):
him said, I saw you speak at a child abuse
conference and I diagnosed child abuse two weeks later. So
in my heart I knew that I had saved a baby,
and that is the why why us, because we were
willing to take this on and turn this into something positive,
(32:57):
and both of us have advocated together and separately, and
it's just been a passion. I've done less and less
as Sydney has gotten older, because I feel like our
story has been told over and over and over again.
But if I can save one more baby through telling
the story, then good.
Speaker 6 (33:15):
For us, and give one more parent permission to push
and be uncomfortable in an office where you say, I know.
Speaker 5 (33:23):
There's something more. What are you missing?
Speaker 2 (33:26):
You know?
Speaker 6 (33:26):
We're so taught to look up to and listen to
everything that's told to us, but yet I had a
similar story with in terms of even the provider that
told me that he could take a picture of Cameron
and put it in that book under impetitle came to
me later and I did something similar to Sarah with
(33:46):
the staff there, and he stood up and said, I
was narrowly thinking. We can never think that narrowly, And
he said it changed how he looks at patients, and
he said he realized that what he said might have
happened is looking at me thinking, well, of course she
isn't hurting your child, but not realizing how many people
(34:07):
have access to our children, so knowing that they are
the provider for the child, not us, and to think
from that direction can make a big difference.
Speaker 5 (34:17):
And I guess the why for me was a little
bit different.
Speaker 6 (34:20):
I got stuck for a while, so definitely we always
kind of laughed that Jim and I would be similar,
and Brian and Sarah were similar, so they were angry,
and I sort of my why turned to why didn't
I know sooner?
Speaker 5 (34:35):
Why didn't I do more? Why didn't I did some of.
Speaker 6 (34:37):
That for a while until I realized that was just
taking my energy away from exactly what I needed to
be doing. And I sort of figured out at some
point the why is because I can help him live
a healthy, normal life after this. This doesn't have to
be a life sentence, this can I can figure out
how that he does not have to be plagued with
(34:59):
us his whole life, and that that sort of drove
me to that place. And then I agree with both
of us trying to advocate or help whenever we can,
or get the word out or teach in any way
that we can.
Speaker 3 (35:12):
If that saves.
Speaker 6 (35:13):
Somebody else, and if it helps somebody else out there,
then you know the why.
Speaker 5 (35:17):
It does become clear.
Speaker 2 (35:18):
Like she said, strength, resilience is what you two are,
your children are.
Speaker 3 (35:25):
I remember, whatever your faith is.
Speaker 2 (35:27):
I went to Catholic college and I had nuns as teachers,
and I was going through a very dark time and
I asked her why is it that some people have
nothing happened in their life or other people are going
through so much pain? And she said, Chris, so the
ones that are going through struggles in life and pain
is the gold in God's eyes.
Speaker 3 (35:47):
You are the strong ones.
Speaker 2 (35:49):
And bless you both for advocating and taking such a
very disturbing and horrible thing that has happened to your
family and your children just amazing. So blessed you for
what you've gone through, and thank you for sharing your story.
I know you definitely have touched many people and definitely
have helped those maybe that I've been wondering, gosh, why
(36:13):
is this happening? Or when I pick up my child,
because you don't know. If you haven't been through it,
you don't know. So thank you for educating our community
and that. And you're just so beautiful, each of each
of you, and you're one of my dear friends.
Speaker 3 (36:27):
And I'm just so proud and I'm so proud of
your kids. So please tell them they.
Speaker 2 (36:32):
Are rock stars and that anytime they want to come
on you know, the podcast and speak as survivors of this,
there are warriors.
Speaker 3 (36:41):
I would love to have them. And again, I'm so
gracious for your time.
Speaker 5 (36:47):
Thank you, thank you so much. Yeah for sharing this.
It's important.
Speaker 2 (36:51):
Well again, if you yourself are going through a struggle
and need some help, please give yourself a voice and
be a voice for your child.
Speaker 3 (37:02):
Thank you so much.
Speaker 1 (37:04):
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