Episode Transcript
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Speaker 1 (00:18):
Hey, there are folks. I want to cover a case
that I made a video on some years ago, but
I think it needs a deeper dive. And the case
I'm referring to is that of Dale Staling and Maseverde
National Park. For reasons that I'll get into later, I
find this case to be rather odd. Certain aspects of
it make little sense, and that could be because there
(00:39):
is scanned information out there about this incident, but even
that is rather strange because this is a closed case.
From the outset, this case should already be categorized as
a bit unusual because people rarely go missing in Masverde
without being found, or at least without being found for
a really long time, and there are some very odd
(01:00):
obvious reasons for that. Don't get me wrong. People do
occasionally go missing there, and by occasionally I mean like
once every ten years, as evidenced by the disappearance of
a man named Thomas Irwin earlier this year in January
of twenty twenty four. But compared to some other national parks,
Mayceverde is quite safe. So while there really is very
(01:21):
few disappearances in the park, there is something that stood
out to me surrounding the facts of each case that
just kind of raises some alarm bells. Maybe it will
for you as well once we get into all the details.
But before we do, let's go over a brief description
of this piece of land, known as Maceverde National Park
(01:43):
Maysaverde Spanish for Green Table, was established in nineteen oh
six and contains over fifty two thousand acres of land.
The name really makes sense when you go there, as
the area is a long range of ridges, plateaus, and
canyons full of green, with winding roads that take you
to points of interest within the park. What really sets
(02:05):
this park apart from others are the extraordinary ancestral Puebloan
cliff dwellings that exist within its boundaries. While many of
these cliff dwellings can only be seen from the road
or a nearby ridge, there are still plenty of opportunities
to get up close to these incredible buildings. They range
in age from about eight hundred years old to others
(02:26):
that are far older than that. The ancient Puebloan people
occupied a huge area of land in the Four Corners,
but some of the most impressive cliff dwellings that exist
today are preserved in Masverde. Some of these highlights include
the Spruce Tree House, the Cliff Palace, and the balcony House.
With the proper reservation, visitors can actually climb down and
(02:48):
get an up close tour of these structures. If you
go and visit Maseverde, you can really get a feel
for how ingenious the ancient Puebloan people were, not only
with their architecture, but also their agriculture and water control systems,
like building their own reservoirs. It's incredible to see how
they developed to survive in such an environment. There are
(03:10):
probably many reasons that these people built their homes on
a cliff. Defense would be a key one, and I
can tell you based on personal experience that on one
hundred degree day, walking into one of these cliff dwellings
felt like someone turned on the air conditioning because it
was so cool. There has always been a lot of
wild speculation about what happened to the Puebloan civilization, and
(03:32):
that perhaps they simply vanished off the face of the earth.
In reality, many things likely contributed to the abandonment of
the cliff dwellings, including warfare with other tribes like the Navajo,
who referred to the Puebloans as the Anasazi or ancient enemy.
Prolonged periods of drought also must have been a contributing factor,
(03:52):
as well as numerous others. There really is no reason
to think that anything supernatural was involved in the abandonment
of the dwellings anyway. The park itself is set up
in such a way that there are two roads that
each take you to a different mesa. There is the
Weatherill Mesa and the chap In Mesa. Each mesa has
its own selection of ancient structures, hiking trails, museums, and
(04:16):
gift shops. The north end of the park contains a
number of hotels and lodging areas, restaurants, and also a
very nice campground. As far as national parks go, Mesa
Verde actually has some very good infrastructure. It's a bit
of a drive to visit some of the most popular sites,
but nothing close to the scale of a place like
(04:36):
Yosemite or Yellowstone. There's also not a whole lot of
hiking options compared to other parks. There are very few trails,
and most of them are relatively short. This likely contributes
to the lack of disappearances in the park. While there
are very few hiking options. The ones that exist could
be dangerous in certain ways. Some crawl along steep canyon walls,
(04:57):
which is an obvious fall danger. Maceverde can also get
quite hot, which creates its own hazards. Overall, though, Maceverde
is a wonderful park and one of my personal favorites.
Hopefully that gives you a bit of an idea of
what we're dealing with when it comes to people going
missing here. A lot of roads and infrastructure with few
hiking trails makes it relatively safe, but things can happen.
(05:22):
What we need to analyze is how or why it
is happening. So let's get into the story of Dale staling.
But real quick, I want to give a big thank
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(06:07):
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is pretty hard to beat. Mitchell Dale Staling was fifty
(07:24):
one years old in June of twenty thirteen. He lived
in Goliad, Texas with his wife, Denen, who worked as
a pediatric nurse. Dale worked for many years as a
meat cutter and market manager for various stores before retiring.
The couple had been married for thirty two years, and
during that time they had raised four children together, two
(07:45):
daughters and two sons. Dale was described as an avid
out doorsman who spent much of the family's free time
taking them on camping trips. Dale was still a fit
man at six feet tall and two hundred and thirty pounds.
He often went on long walks by himself. In twenty thirteen, Dale,
along with his wife, mother, and father, planned to do
(08:06):
a bit of a road trip vacation together, traveling across
multiple states in an RV. By June ninth of twenty thirteen, Dale, Denen,
and Dale's parents were already on day four of their
long awaited vacation. They had already visited the Canyon Desha
National Monument in Arizona, but it was when they entered
New Mexico that the RV started having troubles, and so
(08:29):
they were forced to stop and get it serviced. This
must have happened close to mace Verde, because the four
decided that they should take a day trip to the
national park while their motor home was being worked on.
They entered mace Verde later in the afternoon on June
ninth and resigned themselves to just driving around in the
park rather than engaging in a hike in the middle
(08:50):
of the hot summer day. But while there, Dale saw
the Spruce Treehouse from a distance, one of the most
iconic cliff dwellings at Maceverdemediately captivated, Dale made the decision
to head in that direction on a short quarter mile
hike that takes park goers to the dwelling. This decision,
in most instances would be no big deal. The parking
(09:13):
lot that the group had pulled into is right next
to a ranger station and gift shop. From atop the mesa,
one can actually see the Spruce Treehouse quite well, but
trees and brush can't obscure hikers as they walk down. Overall,
this is an easy hike and the vast majority of
people are totally capable of it. This is going to
be one of those rare cases where we actually have
(09:35):
a number of photos of the events leading up to
the disappearance. This photo of Dale and Deneen was taken
in the park that very day. Deneen recalled that Dale
was a bit bored around this time and wanted to
go do something, but he was the only one interested
in walking down to check out the treehouse. Before he left,
Deneen told him that she would go and get him
(09:55):
some water to take on the short walk. Dale rebuffed
her offer, saying that he did not need it as
the spruce treehouse was just right there, meaning within eyesight.
So Dale, staling began walking down the path away from
his family. Right before disappearing behind a bend in the trail,
Denen called to him and asked him to turn around
(10:15):
for a picture. Dale, perhaps not hearing her, simply called back,
I'll see you in a bit and vanished behind one
of the switchbacks. The time was estimated to be around
four point fifteen PM that Dale was last seen at
the top of the trail. Temperatures in the canyon were
reported to reach around one hundred degrees that day. Just
to be fully clear, the hike that Dale intended to
(10:38):
do probably should have only taken him ten minutes to
get there. Then you get to be up close and
check out the cliff dwelling, and then you head back up.
You could probably safely say that he should have only
been gone maybe half an hour tops. It's a very
short loop trail that noebody should get lost on. But
in this situation, hours passed and Dale did not come
(10:59):
back up the trail. Dale's mother, who was atop the
trailhead with her husband and Deneen, began to get really
worried that something bad had happened. The three of them
had seen many people head down to the Spruce treehouse
and return. As time passed, Deneen decided to go and
talk with the park rangers. As it became more and
more apparent that something was wrong, they told Deneen to
(11:21):
wait a while longer, but as hours passed there was
still no Dale. Some rangers began to search around seven
to twenty pm that night, but stopped as it began
to get too dark to see. Soon it became time
for the park to close and Dale was still out
there somewhere. The next morning would mark the true beginning
of the searches. Dale's staling was declared missing. Searchers knew
(11:46):
where Dale intended to go, but the area is so
small that they knew it was unlikely that he got
lost on the short Spruce Treehouse trail. They quickly discovered
that Dale either took a wrong turn or intentionally decided
to walk the Petroglyph Trail. The Petroglyph Trail is another
loop trail, though quite a bit longer than the one
(12:06):
to the Spruce Treehouse at about two point four miles.
The first half of the trail follows a canyon wall
before coming to the petroglyph panel that the trail was
named after. Beyond that, the trail climbs up and returns
back to the Spruce Treehouse area. Obviously, this trail is
quite a bit longer, but in the summer, it is
also a trail that you should bring some water on
(12:28):
in order to be especially safe. Recall that Dale was
walking with no supplies at all. The reason that we
know Dale was on this trail is because a retired
judge named Jess Vhill was also hiking the trail that
day along with his two daughters and a friend. Jess
actually encountered Dale multiple times while on the hike. At
the time, Jess thought nothing of the encounter. It wasn't
(12:51):
until he saw Dale's disappearance on the news that he
realized he was likely the last person to see Dale
before he disappeared. Looking back at the fore photographs they
all took that day, they realized that they had actually
captured a picture of Dale standing next to Jess on
the petro Lyft trail. Jess says that he first encountered
Dale on the trail around five PM, when they stopped
(13:14):
together to catch their breath. Jess recalled Dale saying something
to the tune of I'd guess I'd better hurry as
I got some people waiting for me. They saw Dale
once again as they approached the Petrolyft panel. Twenty minutes later.
Dale was nearby, sitting on a boulder. As Jess and
his family approached to view the petroglyphs, Dale got up
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and stated he should be on his way, before heading
further up the trail. Jess recalled that Dale seemed perfectly
relaxed and nothing seemed wrong. After this, Dale walked off
into oblivion, and Jess was left with the cryptic feeling
that he was the last one to see this man
who vanished into thin air. Despite knowing that Dale hiked
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the Petrolyft trail, and also knowing that he made it
as far as the petroglyphs themselves, the search found little success.
Details on the search are fairly hard to come by,
but it seems at its peak there was sixty to
seventy searchers on the ground, with two dog teams, helicopter surveillance,
and even teams that used ropes to repel down the
(14:17):
cliffs of chap and Mesa. Sent dogs initially showed interest
in the trail, as you would expect they might, but
this only lasted for the first few days of the search. Realistically,
there are very few places one could disappear while on
this trail. It's on a cliff side, so you can't
really just walk off, but if you do, you're going
(14:37):
to fall. So the most reasonable explanation was, and perhaps
always has been, that Dale fell from the petroglyph trail,
yet no clue was found from searching this rather limited
area within which he was last seen. It might be
worth noting that on the morning of the first full
day of the search, June tenth, rangers were reportedly able
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to get a partial pain from Dale's cell phone. It's
also stated that around seven pm that day that his
phone attempted to make a call to its voicemail. After that,
all calls would go directly to his voicemail, and there
was no other GPS pings. It's possible that whatever happened
to Dale, he was still alive by the evening the
(15:18):
following day. Based on this information, overall, not much to
go on. Maysaverday Chief ranger Jesse Farias stated that the
area had been heavily searched and there was simply no results.
The public information officer for the park, Betty Laurance, said
that typically when people get lost in the park, we
find them or they resurfaced within a couple of hours.
(15:42):
She said that this was the first time in her
tenure that someone had been missing for longer than that,
more evidence that mesa Verde is really not a place
where people disappear. After a few weeks, the search for
Dale ended. The following November. They had a fresh dog
team come in, likely a cadaver dog, and search the
entire area again, but the dog never hit on anything.
(16:04):
As time went on, mesa Verday National Park would use
the location for search and rescue training and exercises. So
in reality, multiple searches took place in this area over time,
but none of them provided any insight into what happened
to Dale. Chief Ranger Jesse Feriah stated, my gut feeling
is that he is out there somewhere and never left
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the park. There was no reason to think otherwise. There
have been no sightings. The case is still open. The
search was scaled back after only a few days, partly
because personnel and equipment had to go and fight wildfires
occurring that summer, and partly because temperatures in the area
were consistently over one hundred degrees that week and Dale
(16:47):
had no water. The odds of them ever finding him
alive beyond a few days were very slim. There is, however,
an incident that often gets overlooked when it comes to
this case. Let me explain. On June twif of twenty thirteen,
an article appeared in the High Country News written by
a woman named Jody Peterson. Jody visited Masverde the day
(17:09):
after Dale disappeared, and, like Dale, she decided to hike
the Petroglyft trail. She was aware that there was a
missing man at mas Verde, but as you can imagine,
early the next day, the only information that had gotten
out was that a man had disappeared while walking to
the Spruce Treehouse. In the article, Jody describes hiking the
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Petroglypt trail, and she details how steep and rugged it is,
squeezing through tall rocks and ascending rough cut stone stairways.
She states that after an hour of walking, she suddenly
heard a weary male voice call out, saying, I need
some help. She thought of the missing hiker she'd heard
about and wondered if he instead attempted to hike the
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Petroglyft trail. She called out to the disembodied voice several times,
but never got a response. She considered scrambling down the
cliff side, but worried she would wind up in a
similar position, lost and desperate for help. Looking at her
cell phone, she realized, as everyone else does who walks
into the canyon, that there is no cell signal. Instead,
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she hiked back down the trail as fast as she
could until she returned to the trailhead with its ranger station.
She found the chief ranger and told him what she
had heard. She says that she saw relief wash over
his face as he said, we thought we heard a
call for help in that area yesterday. He then talked
about bringing in more dogs and searchers. Jody left the
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ranger station and looked across the valley to the canyon
she had just been on. She then said a silent
prayer to herself that Dale be found safe. Jody made
it back home the next day, and she fully believed
that she'd read about a missing hiker being found. Instead,
she learned that Dale was still missing and there were
some seventy people looking for him. By the time Jody
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got around to writing the article, the search had been
scaled down, with it being unlikely that Dale could be
found alive. She speculates that perhaps Dale fell between some
big rocks and a place where searchers just couldn't see him.
Jody's story is really the final clue in the case
of Dale's disappearance. She does say that there is no
way she can be certain that the man she heard
(19:20):
was Dale, but given her description, it certainly seems likely.
Walking down the petroglyph trail for an hour would put
you very near to the location where Dale was last seen.
Her story if accurate, would indicate that Dale fell down
the cliff side and survived, which could be the explanation
for why he wasn't found by searchers if he was
(19:41):
still mobile and tried to walk himself out of the situation.
But this is really the extent of the information I've
discovered on the disappearance in search. So let's fast forward
seven years to twenty twenty. In September of twenty twenty,
it was widely reported that human remains were covered in
Mesa Verde and that they likely belonged to Dale's staling.
(20:04):
They were able to make this determination without any initial
testing because the skeletal remains were found with Dale's driver's license,
credit cards, and social Security card. Officials said that the
remains were found four point two miles from the point
where Dale was last seen, and apparently at the bottom
of a canyon. This area had supposedly been searched back
(20:26):
in twenty thirteen when Dale initially went missing, but we
are given no details about whether it was an area
that was covered by a helicopter, with ground searchers or
with search dogs. They add that there was no indication
of foul play and that he was believed to have
died from natural causes. They were uncertain if a DNA
test to confirm the remains would be possible, as they
(20:48):
state that some moisture must be retained in the bones
to take a sample, and most of the bones discovered
had been bleached by the hot sun. There were no
additional details about the type of tur he was found
in or anything else. The remains were only found because
an anonymous caller pointed searchers to the correct location. This
(21:09):
anonymous individual was hiking somewhere off trail in an area
closed to the public, which may be the reason they
chose to remain anonymous. But I can't help but feel
weirded out by this, Like, who's doing this? Mesa Verde
is mostly desert and rock with steep canyons and ridges.
To go off trail means you're going to be doing
(21:30):
some crazy, tough hiking and dangerous terrain. You have to
worry about dehydration and rattle snakes. And why do it?
Were they trying to find some off limits cliff dwellings
to look at? Possibly, but there has to be some
reason that someone would go this far out of bounds.
And then what are the odds to come across these
(21:50):
skeletal remains. Those odds are probably astronomical. This aspect of
the discovery is really unusual. It's not something you're going
to see very often. Now, let's talk about the location
that was given for Dale's remains, because it's so embarrassingly
vague that it does nothing but beg new questions. All
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we know is that they were in a canyon, which
tells us next to nothing given the terrain here, and
that they were west of Durango, in a remote section
of the park. Durango is a small city that is
so far east of mes Verde that it is basically
a joke that they would use it as some sort
of general marker. The entire park is west of Durango.
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West of Durango is the kind of thing you would
say if you didn't want to say anything at all.
It's basically meaningless. Still, I have to assume that this
means the remains were found somewhere east or northeast of
the petroglypht trail, And make no mistake, four point two
miles as the crow flies means that Dale must have
walked an incredible distance from the area where he was
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last seen. This especially applies to Mesa Verde because the
area is nothing but canyons and ridges. It's virtually impossible
to walk in a straight line. And to me, this
area makes the most sense because the eastern half of
the park pretty much has nothing in it in terms
of trails or roads or anything for visitors. It's all
(23:18):
just wild country and best fits the description given by
the NPS as a remote location. But again, this is
just going to raise more questions. The park spokeswoman told
the Durango Herald that due to the fact that the
remains were found in a closed area by someone hiking
off trail in a closed area, and because of the
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cultural sensitivity of the park and its resources, and to
prevent others from also hiking off trail, causing resource damage
and potentially turning into additional search and rescue cases, the
park will not be releasing the exact location name. I'll
let you think and to side if that reasoning makes
(24:01):
any sense at all. For me, that statement makes no sense.
Who's going to be encouraged to head off trail after
hearing about a guy who died while wandering off trail.
The people who do this kind of thing already do it.
These types of statements are what leads to people creating
some crazy theories about the place, and even I'm starting
(24:23):
to think there's something to this, because they are really
making an effort to cover this thing up for some reason.
At the very least, they could have named the canyon
that Dale was found in. Doing so would be specific
enough to tell us what route he might have taken
and vague enough that it would not give away the
location of any protected ruins. Instead, the Park Service decided
(24:44):
to say nothing at all. One article released at the
time that Dale's remains were discovered quotes his wife Denen,
calling him directionally challenged, something I had not heard mentioned
about him before. Not that you would think it would
matter very much on a pretty clear cut tree trail,
but either way, it seems she was more referring to
how Dale ended up on the petroglyph trail to begin with.
(25:06):
You think it would be a pretty hard thing to do,
given how close the Spruce treehouse was. But I suppose
that's possible he made that wrong turn and just kept going,
though at some point you would think he would have
realized that this is not the right way. The alternative
is that Dale simply decided to walk to the petroglyph
panel without telling anyone. Neither scenarios really have any effect
(25:30):
on the ultimate outcome. The article goes on to mention
that it wouldn't be hard for someone to go off
trail and wander into the back country, a statement that
I have to disagree with for reasons i'll present later.
As you can imagine, I petitioned Mesa Verde for records
regarding Dale's case, and over three years later, nothing on
(25:51):
a case that's closed. They won't even respond to my
emails anymore. This is the only time that this has
happened to me while dealing with the NPS, and I
kind of find it a bit troubling. This is essentially
the totality of information that we have on the disappearance
and death of Dale Staling. All that we have left
to do is speculate about how this could have happened.
(26:12):
But after initially looking at this case, I couldn't think
of what the answer must have been. Did Dale fall
down the cliff side and then walk a ridiculous amount
of miles south and then east and then north to
get to the point where he was found. Theories are
a bit hard to come by on this one. If
anyone's ever seen the History Channel movie Vanished with David Politis,
(26:35):
you might have seen this case come up on there.
In it, they make claims that we have no idea
why the Native Puebloan people abandoned the cliff dwellings, kind
of giving off a hint that there could be some
supernatural explanation for it. I mean, this is the History Channel,
so obviously it was aliens. And then the show goes
on to postulate that Dale got sucked into some portal
(26:57):
or vortex, and they bring a guy on there and
do time dilation experiment to show that there's apparently time
dilation in mesa Verde. Well, the portal thing seems to
fall apart since they ended up finding his body, unless,
of course, the portal just transported him to another area
of the park. But then again, it seemed like he
was heard calling for help near the area he disappeared,
(27:18):
so portals maybe not so much. In the end, I
knew I needed to go and visit this area and
get out on this trail to better understand what was
happening here. Upon entering mesa Verde, you start traveling along
(28:27):
winding roads that take you from canyon to canyon. Elevation
in Mesa Verde can obviously vary depending on where you are,
but mostly resides at these seven to eight and a
half thousand feet area. The Mesa towers over the rest
of the countryside, supplying some very good viewpoints. The steep
walls that the road runs along are prone to rock fall,
(28:49):
but overall the pavement is in pretty good condition compared
to some other National parks. When I was here in
the summer of twenty twenty four, the only Mesa that
was open was the chap In Mesa. The weather Ill
Mesa was closed due to construction. This removes a large
chunk of viewable park, but luckily the only area of
interest on this trip resided in the chap In Mesa,
(29:12):
so I began taking the road south towards the Spruce Treehouse.
The first stop after parking was the Spruce Tree Terrace.
This area contains a museum, cafe, gift shop, ranger station, etc.
It was the place where Deneen and Dale's parents waited
for hours while he was hiking the Petroglyft trail. It's
(29:33):
a busy location with many people trying to get a
look at the Spruce Treehouse, which is currently closed to
up close viewing. Being up in this area, you can
see why Dale would be unconcerned about taking any water
or supplies with him. The treehouse is readily apparent from
the terrace, and it doesn't feel like it would be
a distance of any concern, and really it's not. We'll
(29:55):
simply never know what caused Dale to make the turn
onto the Petroglyft trail. From this point you can either
enjoy the distant view of the Spruce Treehouse or try
and hike one of the two trails in the area.
The Petroglyph Trail was very busy while I was there.
Generally I try not to capture other park goers in
my videos if I can help it, but there was
(30:17):
nearly always someone behind or in front of me. Of course,
summer is one of the busiest times of the year.
A series of paved switchbacks take you down from the terrace.
Then you encounter the clearly labeled trail to the Spruce Treehouse,
which as you can see, is closed. Moving further along,
you encounter a sign with an arrow pointing towards the
(30:38):
Petroglyph Trail. I try to imagine if the treehouse was open,
how easy it would be to take a wrong turn
here and just start walking down the petroglyph. But what
I always come back to is this, the petroglyph starts
taking you away from the obvious spruce treehouse, wouldn't someone
notice that they were no longer heading towards their intended destination.
(31:00):
In the end, it probably doesn't matter why Dale ended
up on the Petroglyft trail. What matters is what happened
while he was on it. One thing that I wanted
to do while hiking this trail was to take minimal supplies.
Of course, I carried my GPS and personal locator beacon,
but other than that, I just carried a large bottle
of water. I was curious how many ounces I would
(31:22):
need to complete the trail. This might give me some
idea about whether or not dehydration was ever a factor
while Dale was doing the hike. Pretty much as soon
as you start down the Petroglyft trail, there is no
more pavement. The trail becomes rocks and dirt. You take
more switchbacks down towards the bottom of the canyon and
eventually encounter an area where the trail splits again. You
(31:46):
can either take the Petroglyph trail or the Spruce Canyon Trail,
which loops back up and around the terrace. But we
all know what trail we are here for, So I'm
currently walking on the Petroglyph trail. I just made the
turnoff from the where the Spruce Treehouse is. It's closed.
(32:07):
Back in twenty thirteen, it wasn't so you could actually
go there. Since twenty fifteen you can't. Kind of makes
it easy to follow the trail at that point, but
still it was clearly marked. There was clear markings for
the Spruce Treehouse, there was clear markings for the Petroglyph.
So as I follow this up, the question is going
(32:30):
to be how could Dale Staling have got off trail?
Could it happen? We'll find out and you'll get to
see what much of the trail looks like. It's a
little bit rugged, it's not paved like some of the
other trails around here, and it goes up pretty high,
(32:53):
maybe around eight thousand feet, so we'll see where it
takes us and gets good footage. So the trail is rugged,
(33:40):
but it's quite clear, and so far there's really no
good way off of it. It is a steep edge
leading down into a canyon. It's not really a place
you could just wander off trail, more likely a place
(34:02):
you would fall off the trail and then it would
be difficult to get back up, which is kind of
so far. The way I'm leaning on this, I think
this outcropping behind me is actually where the only photograph
I was taken of Dale on the trail was taken.
(34:27):
It kind of looks like it. I can't be positive,
but he was kind of captured in the edge of
a photo of a judge and his family who are
also walking the trail. It was the last time he
was captured on camera. He was kind of leap frogging
the judge and his family. He would get ahead of
them and they would get ahead of him, and eventually
they just stopped seeing him. But when they developed their photos,
(34:49):
he was captured, and I think he was captured just
under the edge of this outcropping, so we know he
made it this far and even further, but I believe
this might be at the last point where he was seeing.
(35:17):
There's a lot of big rocks on the trail, which
makes it difficult to walk around. My thinking is that
it would be easy to trip and maybe fall down
this ledge. Here there was a hiker who reportedly heard
calls for help at some point. It was never verified,
but if he fell and couldn't get back up, he
would think maybe he was yelling for help and someone
(35:39):
heard that. But they sent out a search party and
they didn't find anything or hear anything, so it's kind
of unverified. But it was on this trail and Dale
was missing, so I don't know why someone would make
that up. But all indications are he might have fallen,
but then did he hurt himself? Viously not because he
(36:01):
was found much further away, So let's keep moving. Well,
(36:55):
I'm going to say scratch my previous comments where that
last picture might have been take, because there's a lot
of outcroppings and rock overhangs that kind of all looked
the same. So somewhere on this trail he was photographed,
and it was the last photograph, and it's kind of
difficult to really judge. There was kind of a trail
(37:17):
up there, couldn't really tell where it was going. It
seems like they marked the correct trail with yellow ribbons.
It might be easy to get off trail, but and again,
I mean, if you're not on the trail, you're sliding
up and down the cliff side, so it should be
fairly obvious. So yeah, the trail is definitely not clearly
(38:31):
defined in many ways, but at the same time, with
a little intuition, you can kind of tell where it
is now. Dale's wife said he had some directional problems.
That's not necessarily a good sign on a trail like this,
so she said he was also a good walker and
could walk for miles, so maybe also not a good
(38:54):
thing if you're lost, Actually, who knows. One thing I
(39:32):
noticed is that there was often ample shade on the
trail when I was there, though this would probably change
depending on the time of day. If you are stuck
in the sun for the majority of the time, this
trail could probably get pretty brutal because it gets very
hot in that canyon. Some rock overhangs are also so
large that I imagine they would provide shade throughout most
(39:53):
of the day. There's a number of places on the
trail that there is plenty of room to stop and
take a break. There's also quite a few spots that
appear to be pobloan ruins. Very little as left of
them today. This would make sense as the Petroglyph trail
is based on an old trail used by the Puebloans
to move around the canyon. I was fortunate enough to
(40:15):
see some wildlife on this trail when I encountered what
appeared to be a pretty good sized bull snake. So
I'm on the trail kind of early in the morning.
It's like ten. When Dale went out on the trail,
it was four thirty ish maybe five, so the sun
(40:36):
was in a completely different area of the sky. For me,
I'm mostly in shade under these rock faces the whole time.
For him, the sun might have just been hitting this
area making it really hot. That's an issue because he
didn't take any water, and Mesa Verde can get very hot.
As you can see. I'm not wearing my usually required
(40:59):
PLA shirt. Just not good weather to be doing it in,
so and I brought water, you know. He initially it
was probably okay because he thought he was just going
to the Spruce treehouse, really short hike, probably didn't need
to take water for that. But for some reason he
changed course, maybe got lost, took a wrong turn, whatever
(41:21):
it was, and he went down the Petroglyph Trail two
point four miles a loop. Elevation changes really rocky, not paved,
kind of dangerous because you're on a ledge the whole time.
So it set things up for a bit of a disaster,
even though it's not a terribly long hike, and he
(41:43):
was a good walker, but he wasn't prepared for the worst,
and the worst happened. So again, I'm seeing so many
(43:06):
areas where one could potentially fall, and if you fell here,
you're not getting back up to the trail. That's a
huge problem because you got two choices. You can stay
put and call for help, or you can try to
walk your way out of there. But the only way
you're walking your way out of there is if you
just follow the canyon down to its natural end or
(43:28):
to an area where you can actually climb out. Dale
must have tried to do that because he was found
so far away. But then again, we're gonna have to
discuss where he was found, because that doesn't make any
sense either. Really, But I haven't got to the petroglyphs yet,
and that was apparently the last place he was seen,
so I wanna at least get there before I make
(43:49):
any further judgments about what could have happened on the
trail that got him off trail SA if I haven't already.
(45:16):
I also want to put a little asterisk by most
of the things I say in this video as it
relates to the facts of this case, because we have
very few The National Park Service has never actually released
the report, even though he was found. Kind of unusual
in itself. It's been four years now and still nothing.
(45:39):
We are left with minimal details on this case, mostly
just words said by his family about what happened, and
so much of what happened when he was found and
how that came to be is kind of questionable and
a little uncertain. I don't want to say positively that
(46:02):
everything in this video is correct. I hope one day
that I will be able to make sure that everything
I've said in this video, or maybe I can amend
it in a future one is all of the true
facts about this case. But the full story, as it said,
has yet to come out. So I just want to
(46:23):
make a little fyi about that, just a little update.
(47:09):
There's definitely a lot of places you can get off
track because there's a lot of funky offshoots to these
trails that it's a little unclear which direction you need
to go. Usually they always lead back to the main trail,
but still the confusion exists. Eventually you come to the
(48:26):
petroglyph panel, which really is a sight to see. My
favorite hikes are always the ones that have some sort
of reward at the end, whether that be a good view,
a hidden mountain, lake, or some ancient petroglyphs. These kinds
of experiences are what makes me severday a great park.
So I just passed some of the petroglyphs, which may
(48:48):
have been the last place that Dale was last seen again.
He was photographed beforehand by the judge and his family.
Then they kept leap frogging each other, eventually encountering each
other again and for the last time at the petroglyphs,
after which he walked off and they never saw him again.
(49:11):
So something happened to him after that? What that is?
That's the question. After the petroglyphs, you sure do get
some climb into. So the question is if you fell
(49:55):
when you were at this point up from the petroglyphs,
and you survive that fall, which I mean you probably,
I can't imagine. We've fall to the bottom. There's just
so much brush in the way. There's a lot of
stuff that would stop a fall. Yet apparently someone heard
calls for help around this area. You can see the
valley floor down there, nice kind of grassy area. If
(50:21):
you were all the way down there, you might want
to follow that all the way out, because climbing the
cliffs on either side seems a bit unfeasible. Still, we're
gonna keep pushing and keep looking and see if there's
any other obvious way that someone could get lost out here,
(50:42):
you know, without falling and injuring themselves potentially, or just
getting off track. I haven't really seen something that would
explain that, but keep going, so in some ways, as
(51:10):
I keep going, it makes even less sense. If Dale
got to the petroglyphs, it's just a short way to
the top, and once you get to your top elevation
it's pretty much flat, and to go off trail here
seems odd. I don't know how you would do it.
It made more sense that there would be some sort
(51:31):
of fall that would drop him down into the valley,
But there's such a short span of trail between the
petroglyphs and the top of the mesa here, let's briefly
talk about how he was found. So he's found something
like four point three miles for more than four miles
(51:52):
away from where he was last seen, and the way
they talked about it in the media, I'm kind of
curious if it was a quote from the Park Service
or not. But they said that he was found somewhere
remote in the park and west of Durango, which is
a city to the east. That is kind of a
(52:15):
weird way of saying where someone was found. I mean,
normally you would base it off where he was last seen.
A part of me wonders if they did that, because
if they actually said, well, he was found east of
the Petroglyft trail and about four point three miles to
(52:35):
the east or northeast, would have to be kind of
to the northeast to still be in the park. To
someone who knows the land here and knows the trails
and roads, that doesn't make much sense because to leave
the Petroglyft trail and start heading east means you're going
to start crossing the main roads that go through the park,
(52:55):
two of them that are down in this area. And
if Dale crossed roads, how was he not found. I mean,
you can't go off trail here and not hit a road,
and yet he was found to the east or northeast
of here, in a remote area of the park. The
only way that that would be possible without hitting a
(53:17):
road would be for him to head south, then east
and out of the park and then north, which doesn't
make much sense, and he would have had to have
walked much farther than just four miles, So where he
was found kind of doesn't make sense. And ever since
twenty twenty when his remains were found, not much has
(53:40):
been said about it. It came out in the media
once and then there was nothing more about it, and
the park officials never really gave an exact location, just
a general location, still in the park and west of Durango.
Very odd to say that. They should have said he
was found four zero point three miles or so to
(54:02):
the northeast of where he disappeared on the Petroglyff trail. Again,
you look at that map. He would have had to
across a road and multiple ridges and canyons. Could he
really do that? I just don't know. It seems kind
of odd. I mean, he didn't have water, he was
a good walker, but that hike would have been incredibly strenuous,
(54:28):
certainly would have killed you. But could you really make
it there in the first place. But then again, like
I said, we don't have the report on this. I
don't know exactly where he was found. The story could
in a way be completely different. And that's kind of
the troubling part about it is that I don't have
exact information. I just have what was released to the
media in twenty twenty when his remains were found. So
(54:51):
there is the potential that he didn't fall down the
cliff on the first half of the trail, and that
he just walked off behind me in that direction and
started heading east, ignored the fact that he crossed some
roads and just kept walking. That doesn't make a lot
of sense though. Another odd part about this is how
(55:12):
his remains were found. Obviously, the searches that were done
in twenty thirteen were completely unsuccessful, and then seven years later,
someone an anonymous individual who is apparently wandering around in
the remotest parts of the park where you're not actually
supposed to be. As I understand it, no one's supposed
to just be wandering around in this area, and why
(55:33):
would you want to, frankly, but apparently someone was and
they came across his remains just out of the blue,
randomly in a remote region of this park. And apparently
they reported the find anonymously, so we don't know who
found them. They just I guess I left a message
or spoke with somebody anonymously with the park service and
(55:53):
said I found some remains out in this really remote location.
They gave him some details. The parks took it seriously
and went out there and found Dale staling out in
the middle of nowhere, far from where he apparently disappeared.
Everything about that is kind of odd and it doesn't
(56:14):
make a lot of sense. It's kind of rare to
have these stories where the body was found. We know
where they disappeared, we know where the body was found,
but we can't really explain how that happened. How he
got from point A to point B. It would have
been a tough hike in the hot sun, no water.
(56:34):
Seems odd that he got there, and that's why, even
though remains have been found, this case is still a
little bit unexplained, maybe more than a little bit. In fact,
there's a lot that's weird about this. From the guy
wandering anonymously out in the regions of this park and
just stumbling across someone's remains. Those chances are a million
(56:57):
to one, you know. One that's someone would want to
just walk out in the middle of the park somewhere,
and two that they stumbled across the remains of an
individual who'd been missing out here for seven years. Very odd.
Kind of makes you wonder about foul play a little bit,
But how the heck would that factor into this? Explain
(57:17):
to me why someone would be out here looking to
harm a middle aged male walking on the trail doesn't
make much sense, but that's where we are with things. Still.
I'm going to continue on the second half of the trail,
which should be easier than the first flatter terrain, and
(57:38):
see if anything makes more sense as I continue to
go so in trying to rack my brain about what
(58:39):
could have happened here, I have kind of considered that
once you get up to the top here, you are
much more exposed to the sun than when you're down
there along the canyon walls, and you get the occasional
shady respite from the rocky overhangs. Here, you're just getting
straight up hit by the sun, and obviously I brought
(59:02):
water in a GPS, so I'm not going to get
lost or dehydrated. But Dale he didn't have either of
those things. So makes me wonder if he was starting
to get a little thirsty, a little tired, and sometimes
people can get really disoriented when they get dehydrated in
that fashion. Is it possible that caused him to lose
(59:23):
his way? I mean, you'd really have to try, because boy,
that's a pretty obvious trail, so you know, I might
be grasping at straws with that one. I'm just I'm
not sure how you could just kind of wander off
or get lost here without maybe falling off the edge
(59:45):
on the other side of the trail. But if he
did that and follow the canyon out, that would take
him south, and then he would have had to go
east and then north to get to the point where
he was eventually found. With that mileage I would have
I don't even want to calculate how many miles that
would be him. I'm sure that distance would be something
(01:00:07):
like fifteen miles, probably more. I'm sure that the four
point three miles distance that was reported is just as
the crow flies, and so he certainly would have had
to walk more to get to that point. But could
he have done it in the hot sun without water,
I don't know, But still the indications that we do have.
(01:00:32):
If someone really did hear a voice calling for help
while Dale was lost, that does indicate that he fell
down the cliff side over there, survived, and then was
able to walk at least some distance to get to
the point where he was found. But obviously he didn't
climb back up these canyon walls because he would have
(01:00:53):
hit a road he would have to climb around him,
and that's a that's a hell of a hike. So
(01:01:19):
I'm getting towards the end of the hike here. I
just want to cover a few other things I've noticed.
I've drank about thirty two ounces of water on this
little trick. There's no phone service out here, at least
not for me. Apparently Dale did have a phone, but
most anywhere you're going masa very day, it's not going
(01:01:41):
to work. Unless you're at the very top or some
of the high overlooks around here. You might get a
bar or two, but in general you cannot rely on
phone service out here. Obviously he didn't have any. If
he did, no, things probably would have ended differently. I
don't know what to think about this one. You know,
(01:02:03):
it is a bit of a cautionary tale. Dale left
on this hike thinking that it was just gonna be
a short little thing to the uh spruce tree house,
you know, told his wife, I'll see in a few minutes.
Never came back, took a wrong turn, or didn't. Maybe
he wanted to do this trail. I mean, you'd think
he would have noticed at some point that he was
(01:02:23):
not at the Spruce treehouse and he was walking miles
somewhere else. Again, the trails seemed to be pretty well marked.
Maybe they weren't in twenty thirteen. I can't really attest
to that, but uh, yeah, you know, don't don't take
you even the short walks lightly, especially when you're out
(01:02:44):
here in the in the desert and the heat. If
he was better prepared, things probably would not have turned
out this way. But that doesn't change the fact that
what happened to him was quite odd. It made more
sense for him to have been found down in the
canyon somewhere below the Petroglyphic trail and not four miles
(01:03:09):
to the northeast of here remote area of the park
west of Durango, as they say, so I'll get back
to you when I get to the end, all right.
(01:04:17):
So my final determination, I think is that it doesn't
make sense that he would have gone off trail up
at the top, where the trail is relatively flat, well defined,
even if you were a bit disoriented at me to
just wander off, I don't know, it just doesn't make
(01:04:38):
much sense. This trail is very obvious up here, so
I have to go with some sort of fall theory
that he fell, and obviously that again is supported by
someone hearing calls for help. But he would have had
to have fallen in a very short space in terms
of distance. Once you get to the petri, it's only
(01:05:01):
a very short way up to the top of the
mesa here. But it's a climb. I mean, part of
it's you're kind of just climbing on the boulders that
are here. It's not super hard, though, but some people
get close to the edge to get a view because
it's a great view. And I do wonder if it's
(01:05:22):
possible that he could have fallen at that point and
been forced to go down into the valley there, at
which point somehow he's wandering around out in the remote
regions of this park. I guess, you know, I'm not
(01:05:45):
going to be able to explain this whole thing here.
I'm not sure how he got to where he was
found well overall, and in general, I think when I
come out to these places, it's really helpful to develop
a theory or get a handle on what happened here,
you know, because without walking the trail and kind of
(01:06:07):
being here, it's really hard to know where someone could
have gone wrong. You know, what areas are people susceptible
to falling, going off trail and whatnot. And again, while
there are areas of confusion in the first half of
the trail, they usually always link back up with the
main trail or they just kind of dead end. And
(01:06:29):
the danger of just accidentally wandering off trail during that
first half is minimal because to wander off trail in
any sense means you're falling. So really the only angle
I can go is some sort of accidental fall. And
(01:06:50):
again in a really specific area of the trail, because
we know where he was last seen, and he was
that last scene kind of at the very end of
that first half, when you're walking along the canyon walls here,
so something must have happened. And hopefully one day I'll
(01:07:11):
be able to get more information on this case, hopefully
make a little aden done with more answers, but I'll
have to keep hounding the park service about it. I'm
sure they're kind of tired of me, but sometimes you
gotta be a thorn in someone's side to get results.
So I'm going to keep doing that. And ah, yes,
(01:07:36):
there's the museum or a visitors center. So my hike
is just about done now. Before we finish up and
(01:08:09):
attempt to come to some sort of conclusion in this case,
I need to bring up something that I briefly mentioned
at the beginning of this video, and that is the
disappearance of a man named Thomas Irwin, which occurred earlier
this year in mas Verde. But can you guess where
he disappeared? From the Petroliff trail. So people very rarely
(01:08:30):
go missing in this park, but when they do, it
seems they go missing on this trail. Believe it or not,
we know even less about Thomas Irwin's disappearance in many ways.
He is a seventy three year old man, is six
feet tall, two hundred and fifty pounds. Authorities found his
vehicle in the park. He apparently has some sort of
(01:08:50):
cognitive impairment which can cause him confusion, and he also
took unspecified medication which he didn't have on him. He
was last seen on January fifth, fifteenth, twenty twenty four,
while hiking on the Petroglyph trail alone. And I have
to say this would be a really dangerous trail for
a seventy three year old man who is out of shape.
(01:09:11):
The climbing portion of this hike that occurs after the
petroglyphs would be a serious concern. There is another little
wrinkle to this story that you might find familiar. However,
on January sixteenth, the day after Irwin disappeared, his cell
phone was anonymously turned into the Parks Museum. Last I heard,
authorities were still looking for more information about who this
(01:09:34):
individual was that found Erwin's phone. I can't help but
wonder myself. Did this person find the phone on the
trail or they another person who was wandering off trail
and stumbled upon some evidence. Again, we have a disappearance
where very little is known, and oftentimes I hate even
covering ones like that. Still, there is a lot that
(01:09:55):
is familiar about this incident and Dale's Can people get
lost on the petroglyph trail, Yes, I suppose you could,
but you can't really get very far without falling off
the cliff side. The only place you can really go
off trail is up top on the plateau, and once
you start walking up there, you're going to hit a
road again. We're really only left with the possibility that
(01:10:17):
these guys fell or something. And sure the weather at
Masverde can be extreme, but when Dale was last seen,
he was reportedly fine. Dehydration didn't seem to be a problem.
They said. He looked relaxed and unconcerned, and he was
about halfway done with his hike at that point. But
that area right after the petroglyphs is dangerous and a
(01:10:39):
bit confusing. One thing that is worth mentioning is that
All Trails shows a short secondary trail that shoots off
from the middle of the petroglyph trail and takes you
toward the bottom of the canyon. When I was up there,
I didn't notice it, nor did I see any signs
for it. Mesa Verde certainly doesn't advertise it as it's
not on their maps that they give to visitors. Still,
(01:11:02):
someone who's confused, or maybe someone who didn't look at
the trail before hiking, like Dale, could possibly get confused
and take this offshoot. If you didn't know you were
supposed to go up at the end of the canyon,
you could be forgiven for thinking that the trail just
goes on. This trail is not well marked. It's possible
(01:11:22):
Dale or even Thomas could have gone down this way,
But then what if the option is to walk off
trail and down the canyon or turn back, Why would
you choose to go off trail. Whatever happened to Dale,
it seems that he couldn't get back up to the trail,
as evidenced by those calls for help. He was known
as the walking Man to his family, so maybe he
(01:11:43):
tried to walk his way out of there. But if
he was found in the eastern half of the park,
he would have had to walk south, then east, then north. Basically,
you'd have no choice but to follow the canyons, and
that would add up to one hell of a journey.
But it's the only way to get to the eastern
half that would avoid crossing one of the major roadways
(01:12:04):
in the park. There is a part of me that
wants to simplify the explanation to this case by saying,
maybe Dale fell into Spruce Canyon and just started walking north.
To me, this would be the Akham's Razor explanation. To
get the requisite four point two miles, he would have
had to walk north up Navajo Canyon or Wick Up
(01:12:25):
Canyon and die there. That would make a lot more
sense in terms of a location where you might find
a body. But then I think about what the Park
Service said, the remains were found in a remote location
closed off to the public. Does this location really qualify
It's a mile or less as the crow flies to
the nearest main road, depending on which canyon you're in.
(01:12:48):
I don't consider that very remote. And if Dale simply
walked north and essentially the same canyon he fell into,
then why wouldn't the park just say that? Why not
say Dale Staling died four point two miles north of
where he disappeared, apparently after descending into Spruce Canyon. The
park doesn't even offer their own speculation as to what happened.
(01:13:10):
And if Dale was inclined to walk north, why not
walk north in Spruce Canyon. I mean, if you accidentally
fall into a canyon, why not follow it back the
way you came. He knew the Spruce Tree Terrace was
back that way. If he was calling to people on
the Petroglyph trail, then he still had an idea where
the trail was, so why not follow it back to Salvation.
(01:13:33):
If Dale had walked north up Spruce Canyon, it would
have taken him to a road and roughly three miles.
But he really didn't have to do all that. If
he had just walked a little ways up Spruce Canyon,
he would have hit the Spruce Canyon Trail, which literally
runs along the very bottom. I mean, there are people
hiking there, people that could help him. He wouldn't be
(01:13:54):
trapped down there. There was an easy way out. That
means if he fell, he was less than a mile
from an easily accessed trail that's in use throughout the day.
Even if he didn't see people walking the Spruce Canyon trail,
the trail itself would have been obvious. He could have
followed it in either direction, and it would have taken
him back to the Spruce Tree Terrace. If he was
(01:14:16):
able to walk four point two miles. As the crow flies,
he must have still been in fairly good condition, So
why didn't he try walking back the way he had come? Instead?
He apparently did something else, or something else happened to him,
and the Park Service has no interest in clarifying where
he was found or what happened. It would have been
(01:14:37):
so easy for them to simply name the canyon Dale
was found. In doing so would do nothing to harm
or affect any of the things the Park Service listed
in their statement. So to be clear, while it's odd
in itself that Dale didn't try walking up Spruce Canyon,
it would make the most sense that he traveled north
and died, but that doesn't seem to fit very well
(01:15:00):
with what the Park Service did say about where his
remains were found. If he went south, the journey back
to a northeast sector of the park would seemingly be
impossible because of the layout of the canyons. All of
this adds up to a bit of a mystery. This explanation,
while I do like it more than portals, is pretty unsatisfactory.
(01:15:21):
And as for Thomas Irwin, we're over six months into
his disappearance and still he hasn't been found. Obviously at
this point he's no longer alive, but I do wonder
if he ever is found, will it be in a
remote area of the park similar to Dale. You'd think not,
because he was quite a bit older and less fit.
So we got two people disappearing from this same trail
(01:15:43):
for unknown reasons. We got people who are wandering in
off limits areas of the park finding evidence and remains
and a body location that the park doesn't want to
make public. And again that doesn't make sense to me.
That information is public record, and for years now they
won't give it to me despite my attempts. There is
(01:16:03):
something odd happening at mesa Verde. I can't say for
sure or not, but there's too many unanswered questions here
for a case that's been closed for years with a
body being found. Let's hope that we get some explanations
in the future, because I'm going to keep digging on
this case and I'll be sure to release any updates
as soon as I learn about them. So until next time,
(01:16:26):
thanks for watching.