Yuba County 5 Discussion w/ Author Tony Wright

Link to "Things Aren't Right" by Tony Wright https://www.amazon.com/Things-Arent-Right-Disappearance-County/dp/1958727202/ref=sr_1_1?crid=KU2F4OZT8KF0&dib=eyJ2IjoiMSJ9.i_dHmTuB6t5fu0rO1Yl1pVJhoOSRbRRC4vHDc_wwkW5hfCkevE2kXx6mr7lkDaiphMfiHoqThi7-Qez-9r3npGhijF5Gs-H-iZ28ojLWid_3d40BdjpHx-i9bI-nhPXhdT9YdLMAMtV1QVF07qrVOQu-QufeyF17iISzmczvn3gTYeB5hlEswVnCj5ODR2iosUAC7L2RqC_Y9RYRL3iOXhadPgxbWOKnnLk0Yhe7VNE.l17RNzkOlVqLm8olilEWYwLttqwZ1GOcXsS5qffEHZg&dib_tag=se&keywords=things+aren%27t+right&qid=1709401494&sprefix=things+arent+right%2Caps%2C166&sr=8-1

My videos on the Yuba County 5 -
Part 1 - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=I7DTCak0DOo
Part 2 - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IweN7uLhGRc

Link to Patreon - https://www.patreon.com/themissingenigma

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Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/the_missing...

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Episode Transcript

Speaker 1 (00:12):
Tony A, thank you for being here. You recently wrote
a book out of Yuba County Five. It's called Things
Aren't Right. But tell us who you are and a
little bit about your work on this case.

Speaker 2 (00:23):
Please sure.

Speaker 3 (00:25):
I'm Tony Wright. I'm the author of Things Aren't Right,
The Disappearance of the Uba County Five. I'm an archivist
by trade, and I'm a fan of true crime, unsolved mysteries,
and the unexplained. It was twenty eighteen when I first
heard about this case and wanted to read a book
on the Yuba County five. Nothing was available, so I

(00:45):
did some thinking and talked to a few people and
decided to write my first true crime book. I have
a job where I do quite a bit of research,
going through newspaper archives and other state and local archives
to get research information, and I've worked with police records
before in my job, so I thought this would be

(01:08):
great use of my skills, and I reached out to
the families, the media that covered the case, and law
enforcement that was involved in the case as well. Back
in nineteen seventy eight and it took about four years
to work on the book. COVID kind of got in
there and really slowed everything down. But the final result

(01:29):
is this book, and it's been referred to as the
bible for the Yuba County Five case, which I'm happy
to hear from my fellow Yuba County five researchers. And
so the case still has quite a bit of interest,
and I'm glad to deliver this book to people that
are interested in the case that either know quite a
bit about the case or just brand new to the story.

Speaker 1 (01:52):
Yeah, and actually I would agree with the assessment in
terms of there weren't many books out there. I know
Drew Beeson wrote a book, but yours, I could describe
it as a bible because I don't think I saw
anything in there that, you know, I would have had
to add or anything. It seemed you covered all your
seems like you probably talked to every last living person

(02:14):
that had anything to do.

Speaker 2 (02:15):
With this case that you could find.

Speaker 1 (02:18):
And I know that's not easy because I've tried to
find them too, because tracking people down is not easy sometimes. Yeah,
so the information in there great.

Speaker 2 (02:28):
You know, I wouldn't have added anything.

Speaker 1 (02:30):
I learned a lot of new things, especially stuff you
had a lot of focus on who these who these
men were by interviewing the family. So there was a
lot of great info in there. I'm going to put
a little preamble to this interview where I ask people to,
you know, if you don't, if you're not familiar with
the Yuba County five, that you should maybe watch my

(02:50):
video or buy your book whatever, get a little familiar
because we can't go over all the details in this interview.
We're gonna hit some broad strokes just to refresh people memories.
But do you think you could briefly go over who
the five men were without you know, going into super
detail about you know, their backgrounds. If you want to
get that, read his book because there's tons of information

(03:13):
on each of the men. But who were these five guys?

Speaker 3 (03:16):
So there was Ted Weir. He was the oldest of
the group. He was thirty two years old. He lived
in the Marysville Ubisity area just like the others. He
worked for the Gateway Projects, which was an organization that
provided jobs to people with disabilities and also to those

(03:36):
who were struggling with mental illness. And he was friends
with Jack Madrugo, who was roughly thirty years old at
the time of the disappearance. He was the driver of
the group if you will, because he owned in nineteen
sixty nine Mercury Montego. And he was known as sort
of a quiet guy who enjoyed life and just loved

(04:03):
doing things with his friends and family. And he was
friends with Bill Sterling, who was about twenty nine years
old at the time of his disappearance. Bill was deeply religious,
quiet guy, but loved the bowl. There was Jackie Hewitt
who was probably about twenty three years old at the
time that he disappeared. Jackie was very good friends with

(04:24):
Ted Weir. They had a close bond, sort of big
brother little brother. Jackie loved his motorcycle, he loved hanging
out with his friends, loved basketball, loved to just go
bowling or go to the roller skating rink with people
like Ted Weir and just have a good time. And

(04:45):
there was Gary Matthias who was about twenty four to
twenty five years old at the time at his disappearance.
Gary was the one person in the group that had
a mental illness. He had been diagnosed with schizophrenia. He
had been on a regiment of medication since eighteen seventy five.
He was turning his life around after struggling with schizophrenia

(05:07):
for probably maybe four or five years. And Gary loved music,
Gary loved basketball, he loved sports. They were all family people.
They all had their passions, which included playing for the
Gateway Gators, which was the basketball team for the Gateway projects.

(05:27):
So they were active. They all held jobs of some kind.
They did things with their families. They were social. They
loved to go out of town together or go out
of town with their families and either watch basketball games
or just do whatever. And so these men, they were

(05:48):
very productive. They had dreams, and they had great friendships.
And the families collectively referred to the group as the
Boys due to their intellectual discipline. They kind of saw
them a limit as childlike in ways with some of
their behaviors and mannerisms. But the five were good friends

(06:13):
and they had big plans in life. And their plans
involved on February twenty fourth, nineteen seventy eight, to go
to a basketball game in Chico, California, and the next day,
on February twenty fifth, the plan was to go down
towards Sacramento to be in a special Olympics basketball tournament
because if they won that tournament a few months or

(06:35):
actually not a few months, maybe about five months later,
they would be invited down to UCLA to be involved
in the State Special Olympics tournament, which involved trip to Disneyland.
So these guys were very, very dedicated to getting to
that game and playing there. But first thing was first

(06:57):
they had to go see their favorite team, UC Davis
play away game at Chico sitting on the twenty fourth.
And it was that trip to Chico on the twenty
fourth that just it's the mystery, that's where it begins.
And whatever happened, we're not too sure, but they disappeared
that night on February twenty fourth, coming.

Speaker 2 (07:15):
Home right, And that was a good.

Speaker 1 (07:19):
Setup because right off the bat, we know that they
had plans, big plans they were excited for. So this, yes,
that's not something you usually see and people who are
intending to disappear, So some people say maybe they intended
to do this or that, but that would kind of
go against that. So let's talk about February twenty fourth.

(07:39):
We know they they traveled north from Yuba City, they
go to Chico, that's something like forty six miles. I
believe they traveled on Highway ninety nine. Through your book, I,
you know, realized there may have been some discrepancy between
how many times they've done that or not, how many
times they've made that trip or not. We don't really

(08:02):
know what they did in the end. We can only guess,
but we do know they attended the game. They were there,
people saw them there. The game ends around ten pm.
They go to a market, they pick up some snacks.
They're seen again there and after that they kind of
drop off the map a little bit in terms of
what we would have thought they would do. We would
think they would just head straight home, right, So who's

(08:27):
the next person to see them? Where do they next
pop up that night?

Speaker 3 (08:31):
Well, they're at the game. They go to the convenience
store after the game, which is called Bear's Market and Chico.
They buy drinks, they buy basically junk food. And the
person working behind the counter, her name's Mary Davis. She
was not too thrilled to see these guys walking in
at closing time, because you're closing it's Friday night. When

(08:54):
you get home, you kind of just done with the day.
But they come in, they quickly gather what they need,
they go up to the register, they pay, they walk
out the door from there, they get back on the
highway home, but instead of driving home, they take a
huge detour into the Plumous National Forest, where they abandon

(09:15):
their car on a snow covered road in the middle
of nowhere. And the last person to see them is
a man by the name of Joseph Shones who is
also on the same road middle of nowhere. His car
is broken down, he's suffered a heart attack a few
hours earlier, and he sees their car pull up. And

(09:36):
depending on what story you're hearing from showns, they either
get out of the car or there's another car behind
their car, a supposed red pickup truck. Either get in
a pickup truck, or they run into the woods. It's
this is really the hard part for those of us

(09:57):
who've been researching the case. What part of showing story happened.
They either got out of the car and ran away,
they got into another car and drove off. But the
car they were driving in that nineteen sixty nine Mercury
Montego owned and driven by Jack Madruga, is abandoned in
the Plumous National Forest. And if you look at that

(10:17):
on a map, it's seventy five miles in the wrong
direction from home. And if you've ever been up to
the Plumous National Forest, it's in the foothills of the
Sierra Nevada Mountains. It's incredibly rocky terrain, and the temperature
up there would have been much colder than it was
down towards places like Oreville, U the city Marysville, because
it was below freezing. They had a lot of snow

(10:38):
up there. So these guys were way off track. Toget
on right, And so that's the last time anyone sees
them alive is Feary February twenty fourth, nineteen seventy eight.
It could be around eleven PM, or it could be
some time after when it hits midnight February twenty fifth.

(11:02):
We're thinking the last time they're seeing is probably some
time between eleven PM and midnight, starting on that night
of Friday, February twenty fourth, nineteen seventy eight.

Speaker 2 (11:15):
Okay, and so, and Joseph showns.

Speaker 1 (11:18):
Like you said, his story has so much variation in it,
it's really hard to pin anything down. But from what
we know about that night, he started out in Barry Creek,
which is a little bit north of Oreville, up in
the mountains, kind of and he basically starts the night
out by drinking. By all accounts, he's kind of an alcoholic.
In fact, yes, hits a bar, he has a few beers,

(11:42):
He goes to the Mountainhouse bar, he has some more,
and then he says something about wanting to go up
and check on the snow, and then he goes up
there and he gets stuck right and then he has
a heart attack while trying to get his vehicle out.
And so one thing I learned from your book before
was that Shoanes may have had a condition called angina,

(12:04):
which is a heart condition that can cause a lot
of the symptoms he described. What do you think about
this heart attacks in area? Do you think he had
art because we don't really know because hippolyte and whatnot.
Do you think he just he knew he was having
an attack from this condition he had and maybe you
know that occurred. Do you think he really had a

(12:25):
heart attack. Do you think it happened at all? Because
he makes a lot of he basically is able to
change his story based on this heart attack by saying, well,
I was hallucinating or I wasn't in my right mind.
What do you think about all that.

Speaker 3 (12:40):
I honestly don't know what the things. Sometimes I want
to give him the benefit of the doubts.

Speaker 4 (12:44):
Sometimes other times I think he wanted to get a
story to the best of his abilities to get some
of the reward money, because once the men went missing,
some reward money was posted, which I believe if you
adjusted for inflation, it could be like ten grand twelve
gran today. So if you kind of need money and

(13:05):
you give just enough information, you'd be like, hey, I.

Speaker 3 (13:09):
Got a story about those guys. Here's the thing, and
I have to put all this together as best I can.
So the time he leaves Mountain House, as you said,
where he's drinking beer, is probably five point thirty PM
on February twenty fourth, maybe six o'clock at the latest.

(13:29):
So if he goes north of Mountain House up into
the Plumas, he basically parks his car on a road
that leads to nowhere. It's in the middle of nowhere,
it's rutted, it's snow covered, and he gets his car stuck,
but he wants to see the snow line. My problem

(13:52):
with his story of wanting to see the snow line
is he could have just gone into Mountain house and
could have asked someone, you know, hey, do you guys
know the condition up the road? Do you know what's
going on? What it looks like? Because I've talked to
people that news showns and what they've always been under

(14:13):
the impression of is he was never truthful to them.
And there's people have questioned his character for a long time.
And Okay, if he goes up there, it's five thirty pm,
six pm, he has a heart attack. If the guys
don't show up until eleven pm, that's like five hours

(14:37):
he's been up there. If you feel you're having a
heart attack and you're on the brink of death, I
think you're going to do everything in your power to
basically get somewhere, get the help, or do whatever you can.
But if he sees him at eleven o'clock between and midnight,

(15:02):
they disappear. He gets back in the car, spends more
time in his car, and then eventually walks back to
Mountain House. He's been up and he gets to Mountain
House February twenty fifth, what nine am, ten am, and
he's been having a heart attack. It's just hard to

(15:23):
put that together, Like you're experiencing all that you're doing
all that. You know you're going through heart attack, because
I've talked to people going through heart attacks and they've
talked about all the pain, all the how tough it
is just to do stuff. And what was shown is
being exposed to the elements walking from his car to
mountain house and below freezing temperatures, like, how do you

(15:46):
not have like anything like hypothermia? How is this condition
out worsened? And when he gets to the mountain house
the next day after walking from his car roughly eight
miles and it took him forever to get the five
to eight miles. Maybe he never tells me when like, hey,
I got a heart attack and someone calls a squad
or something and just get me to the hospital. He

(16:06):
doesn't do that. He's like, can someone drive me home?
And he asked for aspirin.

Speaker 1 (16:11):
And he makes that comment too that I should have
done this two years ago, and should say, by all accounts.

Speaker 3 (16:18):
Should have done what like you should have listened to
your doctor two years ago?

Speaker 2 (16:22):
Exactly? It could be anything, but you know, yeah, a mystery.

Speaker 3 (16:27):
I should have gotten rid of that VW bug I
was driving two years ago. I don't understand it. And
the thing about showns is he's the last person to
see these guys alive. And reading all of his if
you read all the information he gives to the papers,
the information that he gives to law enforcement, it all

(16:48):
contradicts itself, and you can connect the dots by looking
at all the interviews that he gives. Probably it'd be
like late February early March nineteen the eight and his
stories very he can say, well, I had a heart attack.
I don't remember he talked to law enforcement twice. They

(17:10):
took notes from the interview with Showans, and you know,
getting back to the fact that did he have a
heart attack, It's hard to tell with showones because we
weren't there, and judging by what he did, it doesn't
look like it was as series of a situation as

(17:30):
it was.

Speaker 2 (17:32):
Yeah, I would agree with that.

Speaker 1 (17:33):
And one thing I took away from your book as well,
you know, is that when you think about it, I've
always you know, well, here's this guy and he happens
to be up in the snow on this night, in
this exact spot. It seems like, what is what are
the chances that that could just happen? But in your
exactly It's one of those things that I also question

(17:54):
that because there's stories of Showns getting stuck in the
snow and people helping him out, like this is almost
a regular thing that.

Speaker 2 (18:01):
He did in that area, and that makes me quick.

Speaker 1 (18:04):
Well, wait, if he's doing this all the time, you know,
so this is like a trend with him. He just
drives his car into the snow places and people have
to help him get out.

Speaker 2 (18:14):
And why is he doing that?

Speaker 1 (18:16):
I mean, because you've heard those stories right that came
out of Yes, people told you that, right, And was
him being drunk and driving his car into the snow,
do you know? And that people would help have to
help him in those scenarios.

Speaker 3 (18:31):
From talking to I know, talking to one individual that
knew him, their answer was yes, that they helped him
multiple times. They knew that he was constantly drinking. According
to their memory, he had a drinking problem. And if
you look, you know, I looked at the police records

(18:51):
and it gave a full history on Shown's He has
a history of drinking and driving and it goes back
to the nineteen fifties. So sorry, nothing's changed since the fifties.
This guy has a pattern of being drunk in public,
which is in his record, drinking and driving, which is
in his record, and from people up there Mountain House

(19:16):
and also in that area of Barry Creek, Shoan's was
known for being the local drunk and they said that
they would his car would get stuck in the snow.
And the lady that waited on him at Mountain House
said that she was surprised he drove north from Mountain
House because she knew he'd get stuck on the road

(19:39):
and looking at the snow line, Like I said, there's
nothing to look at. There was no frolicking in the
snow he was going to do. Because I had heard,
you know, from a few people that he was not
the outdoorsman, neither was his family, and so there could

(19:59):
have been a the reason for him to go up
that way. Maybe he didn't want to explain why he
went the way he did, because even talking to a
lot of people lived up in the Plumas and sort
of hearing some of their stories, there's just a lot
of banana stuff that just go I mean, it's just
absolutely bananas up there, from illegal drug growing to meth

(20:20):
labs to just just general tom foolery, drunken fights, craziness.
I mean, and that's kind of been a wild West.

Speaker 2 (20:29):
Yeah.

Speaker 1 (20:30):
I think that's important to the story too, because it
tells you, like what kind of person Showns might be,
you know, in terms. I mean, we can get into
theories later, but it just goes to a theory I
kind of have.

Speaker 2 (20:42):
About it all.

Speaker 1 (20:43):
But one actually related to Shoans being stuck in that
area I want to get to is that I get
a lot of I've gotten a lot of emails and
comments about this inconsistency. To me, it's a little minute,
but a lot of people bring it up to me,
and that's that Shoones talks about getting in his car
and warming himself up in this VW bug. And I
can't tell you how many people I've had contact me

(21:04):
and say that doesn't work like.

Speaker 2 (21:06):
That, that you can't have the heat.

Speaker 1 (21:09):
I have my own theory or opinion on that. But
what is your take on this thing?

Speaker 2 (21:14):
You've heard? You've heard of that I'm assuming I've heard.

Speaker 3 (21:16):
I've heard both sides of the story. But one person
that I saw that they had posted on their blog,
they said, you know, their VW bug did all right
in the winter and the heat worked, but I've talked
to other people who complained about you know, had many
grievances against wilts Wagon in general, but they were but
they were but they were bug owners, and they said,

(21:39):
you have with the air quot engine, you probably get
some air gone, but it's not quite you know, the best.
It's not going to do a lot. But if Showan's
is in the car and it's not doing a great
job of heating up the car, how much gasity out

(22:00):
in the tank that day? If you're gonna let your
because I live in the Midwest, sometimes you're gonna let
your car run when it's cold. It gets below freezing here,
those days are just terrible. I get it. But to
just like sit in a car that's been idling in
the snow, Yeah, you've got a lot going on here,

(22:24):
especially with that BW And if it's not generating heat,
what's the point of running the car is? So if
he turns off the car and now he's exposed to
the elements, he's exposed to the elements, hypothermia is gonna
kick in at some point, especially if he starts walking
the mountain house. Because if there's snow on the road
and snow on the ground and he's not wearing the
proper clothing. He falls down, gets wet from the snow

(22:48):
and the mud and the rain and whatever. I mean,
that's that's miserable. You're absolutely just playing a dangerous game
if you somehow get your clothes wet, your shoes wet,
and you're walking in the freezing temperatures. And it's hard
to tell what Showanes was doing in that car because
his stories vary from he's laying down in the car,

(23:11):
he's got a window open with his legs hanging out. Yeah,
I mean it varies.

Speaker 2 (23:17):
Yeah, that's an interesting point. I didn't remember that being
part of.

Speaker 1 (23:22):
My research, that when he was in the car with
his legs hanging out for a while, which would really
negate the heat factor of being in the car. But
I think he gets in at some point right the door,
he asked, He really does. Yeah, And you know, I
guess my take on the whole thing, this this theory
of you know, that it doesn't make sense that he
would get you know, I had a car that was

(23:45):
an early seventies car back in the day, and its
heater didn't work. But even with the engine on, I
remember the engine generated a good good amount of heat
even in winter that you know, I could be fairly
comfortable just sitting in the car with the engine and running.
I wasn't a VW, so I can't make a one
to one comparison, but I would got to think if

(24:06):
he had the engine running, it would be at least
slightly warmer than if you were standing outside in the wind.
You know, at least you're protected from the wind. Maybe
you're getting a little heat coming off. So I don't
think it's like completely out of this world that he
could have stayed alive in there. Maybe right now, that's
just for the people that always send me that theory,
that's for you. Yeah, you know, I don't think it's

(24:29):
a smoking gun or anything. But okay, so we know
Shoons gets a ride home and he passes out.

Speaker 2 (24:39):
You know, he's he's had a long night. Yeah, And
what happens then, like.

Speaker 3 (24:46):
His wife and daughter come home, they see him in
bed kind of like, hey, what's up. According to the
police report the sheriff's report, Seans tells his wife that
the car's up in the plumiss and you know, he
had quite the night. So instead of taking him directly
to the hospital, his wife goes and tries to get

(25:10):
the car. So if this guy's having a heart attack,
what are you going to do? You're gonna take him
to the hospital. Are you going to go get your car?
And that's what she did. She went to get the
car with her daughter and another person.

Speaker 1 (25:22):
And you know, I'm sorry to interrupt you, but it's
one of those things when you say it, like it
makes me think, like the angina, like maybe this is
something he'd experienced before and was all they were used
to it almost yeah, oh, this just happens occasionally. He
has this, And it's like because they didn't seem like
totally like it was an emergency, do you have that
same kind of feeling about it?

Speaker 3 (25:44):
That's exactly the way I feel, because it's like, okay,
you know, even the talk of him walking as far
as he did to Mountain House and the amount of
time and you just walk in and you're just like, ugh,
I just need some ass forn either. I mean, if
you're having a heart attack and you feel like you're
a goner, the first thing you want to do is

(26:05):
get help. And I don't know how insurance was at
the time for people and what you know, what an
ambulance ride would cost you out of pocket. I have
no idea, And maybe he wasn't one for doctors. I
don't know. But the thing about this guy is it,
you know, if he's having as big of a heart

(26:25):
attack as he is, why do you go get the
car someone else? You could have asked someone else, you know,
to get it for you, or you could have gone
back to get it.

Speaker 1 (26:35):
It certainly establishes priorities, like what their priorities were, which yeah, interesting,
you know.

Speaker 3 (26:41):
Yeah, And it's a little bit strange because they go
to get the car, but you know, they don't bring
really anything with them equipment wise to get the car
because they realized that Joe killed basically drained the battery
and he used up all the gas in the car.

(27:03):
So what they have to do is go home and
then come back. So they do this on Saturday, They
come back again on Sunday, get the car freed, and
then that's.

Speaker 1 (27:16):
That, right, And they see the montego there, yes time,
but don't really think anything of.

Speaker 3 (27:22):
It, right, right, And other people are up there as well.
At the time they see the car, think nothing of it.
There was other people up there just hanging out doing whatever.
And they said, yeah, we saw that car, and there
was a guy up there. I think he was like
cross country skiing or something, and he said, yeah, I
saw Shownes's car and I saw the Montego, and you know,

(27:47):
it must be typical for them just to see these
cars up there. And with the car up there, it's
not reported missing or not reported to the Euba County
Sheriff's office until Tuesday the twenty eighth, so that car
had been up there for a period of time, and
Shownes this car is long gone. Yeah, by the time

(28:08):
they find Jack Madrugue's Montigo. So it's like, okay, there's
a big gap in time here where that car goes missing.
Nobody mentions anything about this Montego being up in the plumis.
Nobody reports anything or you know, says anything to anyone else,
especially Showns when he gets into Mountain House. He never

(28:29):
says anything about the Montego. They interviewed like four people
who were there with him that morning. They said he
said nothing about the Montego and all he's talked about
was himself.

Speaker 1 (28:41):
Yeah, and so it wasn't until like I think it
was a Forest Service ranger. He I mean, I guess
they put out some sort of APB on the Montego eventually,
and then a four service ranger sees it up there
and then reports it. It happens kind of like that,
and that's how they finally find it.

Speaker 3 (28:58):
What happened was a guy who worked for the Forest
Street Service did see the car, and he was watching
the news and then two and two and this head.
He's like, oh, that's that car, So he calls I
believe it's the Butte County Sheriff's department because it's Butte
County where the car is abandoned. Four of the five

(29:22):
guys live in Yuba County, So on Saturday the twenty fifth,
at eight pm, the parents were actually able to put
out a missing person's bulletin. They wanted to do it
first thing Saturday morning, but the law enformer sheriff's departments
like no, no, no, no, their adults can't do that.
So by the twenty eighth they get word that, hey,

(29:43):
we found the car that these guys were driving. It's
up in the Plumous National Forest, seventy five miles away
from Marysville, Yuba City. So law enforcement and the families
kind of get up that way to figure out, like, Okay,
why are they up here? How'd they get up here? Yeah? Yeah,

(30:03):
it was that forestry service worker that. Yeah, had they
not said anything, who knows when they would have found that.

Speaker 1 (30:09):
Car exactly because it's in such an odd place that
and because people go up there and they do stuff
in the snow, and so I guess all the people
that saw it previously they don't really think anything of it.
They think maybe this person's out there cross country skiing
or or something or other. And but we finally they
do finally find it, and there's.

Speaker 2 (30:27):
Not much odd about it.

Speaker 1 (30:29):
Well, what's odd about it is that there's not much
odd about it because there's still gas in the car.
It's stuck, but not terribly stuck in the snow. We
there's a window on the driver's side rolled partially down,
which was unusual because Jack Madruga, they said he wouldn't

(30:49):
leave his car like that in such a such a state.
I believe is that correct as far as yes, okay,
And so the vehicle is just in this odd state
where it doesn't make sense why they would have left
it there and where they've gone, and this kind of
kicks off the search up in Plumus where now they

(31:10):
know they must be here somewhere and they're looking and
it's a if you even look on it in like
a topographic map, that place is rough. It's all steep.
You've been up there.

Speaker 3 (31:20):
Yeah, I've been up there a couple of times, and
it's uh even the day and during the night, and
it's rough even today.

Speaker 1 (31:26):
Are the roads? I mean, I gotta imagine the roads
are a little better. But did you go walking around
in the forest and stuff.

Speaker 3 (31:34):
I didn't go walking walking around the forest. I did
mostly driving from Marysville, Uba City up to the first
time I got to get up to the road near
Rogers Cow Camp where they abandoned the car. So that
was that was a heck of a drive. But I
went up there with the UI County Sheriff's Department and
they were kind of showing me around. I did walk
around some and just getting a feel for the land.

(31:57):
I mean, it's not you're just not walking into Walton.
You're not thrilled like I'll just walk roun woods.

Speaker 1 (32:06):
Yeah.

Speaker 3 (32:07):
Now it's pretty rough up there, and there's a few
times so I was kind of getting the lay of
the land and I'm thinking, man, this is some rough
walking if you got to do it. But at the time,
so the roads are paved now, but at the time
there was a certain point where the roads weren't paved.
So you're kind of driving on these gravelly roads.

Speaker 2 (32:26):
And that's where they were stuck.

Speaker 1 (32:28):
Right, they've been they had been off paved road for
a couple hundred yards, I believe, is that.

Speaker 3 (32:34):
Yes, right? Yeah, So for Madruga to drive on a
road that they referred to as rutted, they didn't buy
the fact that he would drive up that road because
he once refused to drop off Jackie Hew at his
house because he didn't like the road near Jackie's house
because it was maybe there were some potholes and he

(32:56):
didn't want to hit a pothole and hurt his car,
damage's undercarriage or anything like that. So but the car
when they drove up the road was driven carefully, right
slowly up that road and it leads to nowhere. It
doesn't connect to a high I mean, once you hit
a certain point up in the plumas, you're in the

(33:17):
middle of nowhere, especially at night. I was driving up
there night and I'm thinking, like, no way, and how
would I do this again just driving up here.

Speaker 1 (33:26):
And did it kind of make it? Was it kind
of a little scary almost just being Yeah.

Speaker 3 (33:31):
It's kind of freaky because it's like these winding roads
middle nowhere, pitch black.

Speaker 1 (33:36):
In spots, which is really interesting because some of the
kids that U A five, they were afraid of the dark.
They didn't like us snow. This is not their environment
they like.

Speaker 3 (33:47):
Yeah, they weren't. I mean, they do stuff outdoors, like
go swimming or hunting, fishing with their families, but overall,
it wasn't there big thing to go up into the plumus,
you know, just to hang out in the snow. And
they weren't you know, overall that they weren't big in
the snow. There was a few of them that were
just not a fan of the dark. So to be

(34:13):
in that situation with all these negatives, I don't like
being outdoors, I don't like being cold, I don't like
the snow, I don't like the dark, I don't like
being away from home. Then why are they there? And
it's not making any sense whatsoever that they would take
that crazy detour because if you drive that road, it

(34:34):
winds up into the foothills of the mountains and there's
places to turn around, because if they got lost, Jack
Madruga could have been like, no, we're going the wrong way.
Because there's something you cross at Lake Oreville called the
Bidwell bar Bridge, which is this curving bridge that spans
over the over Lake Oreville. So if Madruga hits that

(34:55):
and drives over it, he would probably he should have
known like, nah, this is I should It.

Speaker 1 (35:01):
Would have been a total red flag that this is
we don't go this way.

Speaker 3 (35:06):
Yeah, And I drove it at night and it wasn't
lit up, but still it's you know, you're on the bridge,
and these guys, especially Jack Manchuga is driving experience, should
have known that I'm not driving over a bridge to
get back to Marysville or Yuba City. Because there's two
highways that run parallel to each other, seventy which would
take you in the Marysville and ninety nine, which takes

(35:29):
you in the Yuba City. If he was on one
of those roads, he would know they're not winding roads
with snow, and you don't cross a big bridge. And
there's sort of another sort of like a bridge that
sort of spans over a valley that they crossed over,
and but DRUGA would have known. And you know, especially
when you start seeing pine trees and rocky roads.

Speaker 2 (35:50):
And stuff like that, you're going up.

Speaker 3 (35:52):
Yeah, Yeah, that's a clear indicator we're not We're not
in Kansas anymore, right.

Speaker 1 (35:57):
And so there's a you know, I guess everyone's confused
as to why the car would be there, the sheriff,
the parents, everyone, no one knows what's going on.

Speaker 2 (36:09):
But they start the search there.

Speaker 1 (36:12):
I want to get into some other things, so I
don't want to spend too much time on like the
search and stuff, because.

Speaker 2 (36:16):
I guess they didn't find a lot.

Speaker 1 (36:18):
They got a lot of like reports of sightings, and
I guess I'll ask you really quick, did you find
any of those to be particularly relevant? The multiple different
sightings of the boys at different areas, did you find
them to be compelling in any way other than you know, okay, none.

Speaker 3 (36:39):
So they start receiving information on the men being missing,
probably I would say maybe starting around Sunday, the twenty
fifth Monday that oh no, maybe Sunday on the twenty sixth, Monday,
the twenty seventh. They might start a few things trickle

(37:01):
in where people claim they saw them near Sacramento, which
was the bulk of some of these sightings was the
Sacramento area, and Sacramento is about forty five minutes south
of U the city. Something like that. People just said, oh,
I saw someone who looked like they had a disability

(37:24):
and sort of fit that. You know, whatever they had
in their mind is what someone with the disability looks like. Right,
They said, Oh, that's got to be them. Because there
was one sighting was at a roller rake and that
caught the attention of the authorities because they loved the
roller skating and they went down there and found out like, no,

(37:45):
it wasn't them, it wasn't their car. They're seen like
at a couple of them are seen in a movie
theater or at a bar. Someone claimed that they saw
maybe one or two of them hanging around a hotel somewhere,
which is completely out of character. The worst one was

(38:05):
the lady who claimed to see all five of them
at a convenience store, which would have been I think
fifty sixty miles south of where the car was abandoned.
But they're wearing different clothes. It's the like Jackie Hewittt

(38:27):
was on the phone talking to someone, but he wasn't
someone who was big on talking on the phone, didn't
care for it. And they're all wearing different clothes.

Speaker 1 (38:35):
And people bring that one up to me because of
the red truck. They say, well, there was a red
truck there, and Sean said he saw a red truck,
So it's got to be real and it's got to
be connected.

Speaker 2 (38:48):
But I don't think so.

Speaker 3 (38:50):
No, that's in this red truck. Man. If it's connected
to the story, I would love to know. But it's
something that just keeps coming up, that there's this pickup
truck that apparently followed the men up into the Plumas
and it's tied to their disappearance. But the person who

(39:13):
made the claim of seeing the men at another convenience store,
they're wearing different clothes, and when they were when the
remains of four of the five were found, the clothes
that were found matched the clothes they were wearing the
night they disappeared. So you wouldn't put on the clothes
take off the clothes. And if you could go home,

(39:36):
why wouldn't you just go home? You know what I mean? Yeah,
if they had made it sixty miles south and they're
in a truck, why not go home? And that story,
in my opinion, is very frustrating because I don't believe
anything that came out of the lady's mouth that made

(39:56):
that claim. I think she wanted the reward money and
it was just one of those convenient stories where you know,
either she was going to split it with somebody like
either the owner of the store, who could have corroborated
her story.

Speaker 2 (40:08):
Right.

Speaker 3 (40:08):
Again, it's like, you know, ten to twelve thousand dollars
and if you're hard up for cash, you know, why
not make up a story. And there's a lot of
sightings of the men that people claim the furthest one
that I saw from the car was Los Angeles where

(40:29):
there's a student at USC. She's riding the bus and
claim that some of the guys got on the bus
and was riding around downtown LA with her, and they
kind of looked into it and wasn't true.

Speaker 1 (40:40):
Right, And I guess a point I would make is
that you know, if anyoney, you know just from watching
this channel log and I feel realize that it's not
uncommon to get these sightings in almost any missing person's case,
especially one that's really high profile. Right, sightings just start
pouring in randomly, people that are sure they saw this individual,

(41:01):
and then oftentimes it turns out there's just no possible
way they could have. People are mistaken, they have ulterior motives.
You never really know what's going on. But yeah, just
because someone says they saw somebody, it doesn't really mean
they did.

Speaker 3 (41:16):
That's true. And it's super frustrating because they have to
follow these leads and follow up on every phone call.
And they had some absolutely outrageous people getting in touch
with them, like their theories and what happened to the guys,
and it's like, oh, man, like I felt sorry for
law enforcement having to deal with all these dead ends,

(41:38):
but oh yeah, they would have to look at they'd
have to follow some of these leads and figure out
what to do.

Speaker 2 (41:43):
Right.

Speaker 1 (41:45):
So let's fast forward a bit because I want to
make sure we have plenty of time to spend on
the recovery and theories and stuff. So what's fast forward
to June fourth, nineteen seventy eight. Can you describe a
little bit about what happened and that day the motorcyclists
up in the Plumus and what they found.

Speaker 3 (42:05):
Yeah, there were three guys on a motorcycle trip up
in the Plymous area. It was a father, his son,
and a family friend. They had been riding around all
day and for whatever reason, they thought they could get
around some of the roads. But the weather it had
been really bad in California, much like how it is now,

(42:27):
a lot of snow, rain, mud slides, and some of
the roads they were trying to travel were, you know,
there were trees down, and it was not quite the
fun trip that he had planned. But they knew. At
some point they had passed a place called the daniels
In Campground, and that site had a map of the area,

(42:48):
and they thought if they looked at the map of
the area, they can figure out a good way to
get back home. But when they went back to look
at the map, they noticed that there was a strange
smell in the area, and they kind of knew what
it was but didn't want to say what it was.
They kind of rode around a little bit and up
they came across up or they came upon some fire

(43:10):
trailers that were used by the Forestry Service for workers
to use if they're stationed up there, and they had
like beds and food and them and the sun of
one of the riders noticed that the smell was coming
from on the trailers. They looked and saw that a
window had been opened in the trailer, and they looked

(43:33):
in saw someone was in the bed and kind of
knew something was wrong. They called the Sheriff's department after
like riding down to a Denny's or somewhere, and when
law enforcement finally showed up, excuse me, they went up
to the trailer and that's where they found Ted Weir.

(43:55):
Weir was on one of the beds. He had blankets
over him. He had lost eighty twoe hundred pounds. He
was two hundred pounds at the time of his disappearance.
He was wearing the same clothes they found like his
ring next to the bed, and like I said, the
clothes were just a match to the day he went missing.

(44:17):
And there were cans of food open in the trailer,
which were sea ration cans, military meals and things like that,
so someone had been in the trailer. They had also
found Gary Matthias's tennis shoes in the trailer, and so
that was the beginning of the discoveries of the men.

(44:37):
And then days after Ted's found the remains of Jack
Madruka and Bill Stirling are found south of the trailer
about a mile or two, and then after they are found,
about a day or so, the remains of Jackie Hewitt
are found. After that they have four of the men's missing,

(45:00):
you know, the before the men's remains have been found,
and that is early June nineteen seventy eight, and they
kind of spend part of the rest of the month
trying to find Gary. But before the month ends they
put an end to the search for Gary Matthias and
he's never been found since.

Speaker 1 (45:21):
Right, And so one of the things we know is
that Gary Matthias's shoes were found in the trailer, so
we can make a good assumption that he was there
with Weirs. One of the things that was frustrating to
me when I covered this case was this idea that
a snow cat had gone up to the trailer to

(45:43):
knockoff snow from the roofs We knew it happened, but
I could never really find what route they took, because
if you look at the spread of the bodies of Madruga,
Sterling and hewittt it looks like they took the longest
route possible to get to the trade right, And I
always wondered, did the SnowCat really do that same route,

(46:04):
that long route.

Speaker 2 (46:05):
Do you know anything about whether or not that.

Speaker 1 (46:09):
Was the route it took this long, kind of looping
route to get to the trailers.

Speaker 3 (46:14):
I'm not one hundred percent sure about what the route
would have looked like. But to get from the car
that to get from the abandoned car to the trailers,
you're going to go like northwest along these roads to
sort of wind through the Sierra Nevada in the Plumbus
and it ends up being like twelve miles even though

(46:37):
it's five miles across the lands.

Speaker 2 (46:39):
Just the way that road's done very windy.

Speaker 3 (46:42):
Yeah, yeah, and we thought it was. And talking with
some other Yuba County five researchers, we think they did
that path, the path that they followed to the trailers,
just because the trailers, from what I was told, alatively
new they wanted the snow off the roof to avoid

(47:02):
any kind of damage or leaking of snow into the trailer.
And if they saw that path, they probably decided to
follow that.

Speaker 1 (47:12):
Right path of least resistance almost but even though going
upward kind of y's that idea, But still it would
be the obvious path to follow.

Speaker 3 (47:22):
Yeah, And even one of the investigators from the Yuba
County Sheriff's Department who was up there, said, for them
to get to the car to those trailers, to make
that journey along the road, it's just unbelievable.

Speaker 2 (47:35):
It really is. Yeah.

Speaker 3 (47:37):
How did they he was even baffled. How they did
that walk in those conditions?

Speaker 1 (47:43):
Yeah, because people have to remember they were basically in there,
you know, the lower part of California clothes, you know,
they you know, lightweight clothing, Yeah, freezing out. They don't
have the right even shoes for it. Those shoes will
get wet and cold real quick that they were, you know,
and when you're in it, I find if you're in
a group of people, things take a lot longer than

(48:05):
if you're just one person walking.

Speaker 2 (48:07):
Because if you're one person.

Speaker 1 (48:08):
Walking, you know what you need to do, and you
have to motivate yourself then that's it. If you're in
a group and somebody starts lagging behind a little bit,
you're going to be trying to stop. We got to
get this person up and moving again, you know, and
it takes longer. So this was probably a very long
and arduous trick that they took.

Speaker 3 (48:27):
Yeah, and I find it hard that they would have
left anyone behind, knowing how the five were as friends interesting,
the kind of people that they were in general, I
find it hard to believe they would leave someone behind
out of the group. If you know Sterling, people feel
like Sterling Madruga could have been the first two to
fall behind, and then Gary, Ted and Jackie made it

(48:51):
to the trailer. One theory I've had is that they
all made it to the trailer and maybe Gary was
the first to leave because he didn't have his medication
and maybe he decided to take someone else's shoes. That's
definitely a possibility. And when Gary left, whatever way Gary took,
he never was found again. And then the next person

(49:17):
or persons that would have left could have been jack
Madruga and Bill Sterling. They could have said, hey, Gary
hasn't come back, let's go look. And then it's believed
Jackie Hewittt left after Ted Weir passed away. It could
have been too much for him, and you know, that's
why they were found where they were found. Interesting, but again,

(49:41):
these are only theories, and it would just it's hard
to imagine them leaving someone behind. But again, if they're
experiencing hypothermia, lack of food, lack of water, all this
sort of creates this perfect storm where you you almost
have your you're delirious, you're there's really no common sense

(50:05):
because of you know, when hypothermia hits you, it's it's
it's absolutely horrible and if you're not gonna warm yourself up,
you're you're doomed. So and that's an And that's another
thing too. I mean they got to the trailer where
they found ted weird. I mean there was a something

(50:26):
they could have just turned you know, the yeah, like
the novel team, Yeah, and they couldn't. They didn't do that,
But they said the snow could have covered the gas
or the propane canister or whatever whatever canister it was
outside the trailer and they probably wouldn't have seen it
at the time.

Speaker 1 (50:43):
This reminds me actually of something that I wanted to
ask you because it was something I couldn't find an
answer to, and that is people often talk about why
didn't they make a fire in there? And I always said,
I've never seen any evidence that there was like some
place to make a fire in there, like some some
you know, any wood stove or anything. I'd never heard

(51:03):
any reference to that. All my understanding was that the
heating was based off of gas. And to me, the
idea of them just like starting a fire someplace in
the trailer might have been frightening to Weir or maybe
both the guys that were in there. But what is
your take on this fire starting a fire thing?

Speaker 3 (51:22):
You know? I talked to some of the family members
and there was even some quote at the time. They
didn't start a fire, which surprised them, they thought, because
if you look at there is film of the trailer,
and the trailer were Ted's founds here, and there's another
one like right across the way, and there could have

(51:44):
been some space where they could have tried to set
something on fire, maybe burn some stuff in the viral
like outside.

Speaker 1 (51:51):
Yes, okay, so is that what they're talking about. I
always thought they were talking about like inside to heat,
because you know Weirs in there. He's probably a mobile
and probably freezing, and so I always assumed they were
talking about heating the trailer somehow, and that's what always
confused me.

Speaker 2 (52:07):
I get.

Speaker 3 (52:08):
I think they might have tried heating the trailer itself.
They probably didn't have anything in there other than a candle,
which is not going to generate enough heat to save anybody.
I don't care who you are. But what's also frustrating
is there could have been a way outside. They could
have started a fire to create smoke, and if they

(52:30):
would have created the smoke, someone could have been alerted
to that and saying something's on fire, something's burning it.
And they even used a helicopter to look for the guys,
and it seemed to have been used more than once,
and they claimed to have covered pretty good territory with
the helicopter, and it's all part of the mystery, like

(52:53):
did you see the trailers? Did you? Which way did you?
Because that's another thing we're missing. We do not have
a map showing like, yeah, this is the area we searched,
this is where we went, and this is what we covered.
None of that's vailed. So in the end, with the
trailer being to the northwest of them, or i'm sorry's

(53:13):
to the northeast of the car, not to northwest, it's
still like, okay, how far did you go to look
with the helicopter with your search and rescue teams? Because
they were up there March and probably part of April.
I know they really weren't up there much in May.

(53:36):
But like, when you were doing all this work, when
you had people up there, what were you doing? Where
did you go? And in the end, the US Force
Service said, we told you about those trailers, and everyone
just started saying, oh, no, you didn't. You didn't tell
us anything about those trailers. We didn't know about them.

(53:57):
And another problem was you had Eva County Sheriff's office,
but County Sheriff's office the trailer where Ted Weir and
some of the bodies were found was in Plumus County.
And then there's Sutter County because Bill Sterling was from
Guba City, so and then you had California's sort of
their Department of Justice involved too. So you have a

(54:19):
lot of jurisdictions coming in, search and rescue teams from
other areas, the helicopters from the California Highway Patrol. How
much information is being shared? How well are people effectively communicating,
you know, search and rescue efforts to each other. It's
just it's sad and it's frustrating because I do believe

(54:42):
the Forestry Service and they said, like, hey, we told
you about these trailers, you should go check them. And
one of the family members was told that they wouldn't
have made it, you know, because of their disabilities. They
would have never found their way to those trailers. They
couldn't have done that, but they did. So if they
made it there, it's like they're being underestimated for their

(55:05):
you know, for their developmental disabilities or mental illness. And
I think that still makes the families mad to this
very day. And it's part of the reason, like they
keep track of a lot of these videos that come
out on YouTube or the podcasts that come out, and
they always they immediately go to the comments section because
they want to know what people think. And you know,

(55:26):
it's the same thing. Well, Gary's crazy because he has schizophrenia,
and the guys, yeah, all had disabilities and they weren't smart,
so as well.

Speaker 1 (55:35):
They're always a cop out, I think, to try and
find an easy answer that they didn't really have to
look into.

Speaker 3 (55:42):
Yeah, and they say, well they got lost. But at
the same time, you know, Drew Beeson brought this up
to me when I first started talking to Drew. He said, hey,
these guys don't have a record of getting lost because
they would take out a town trip, but there's never
a story someone had like, oh, well, you know that

(56:03):
one time they went out of town they got lost.
None of the family members mentioned anything about these guys
getting lost before. They said they had been the Chico before,
so if they've gone to Chico, they know how to
get back. And another thing is, which is really strange,
the day before they were missing, they just saidn't have

(56:24):
a bastall practice and they would tip the practice in
the city, but this where they would practice it. Hey,
we got a thing going on tonight, so I can't
use the gym. But Bill Sterling wanted to practice, and
some moms like call around the places, see what's open,
and he said, I found a gymnasium. She's like, great,

(56:44):
where is it? He said, He's down to drive to
a school that they may have never visited. They're back,
you know what I mean. So what bugs me is
like they keep saying they get lost, and I'm like,
Jack Madriga is from Loma Rica, California's you know, his

(57:07):
family says he's driven to Chico, he's been to Sacramento,
he's driven to other communities. He's never had an incident.
He was a reliable driver. He just doesn't disappear. Sorry,
and them getting lost. I know in Jack Madrugu's family
who I interviewed, said he would have known well enough

(57:30):
to turn around and go home. And something happened that
night where something led them to that road, either something
some perceived danger that they knew was coming. They were
trying to get away from someone or a group of
people for whatever reason. And that's what I believe, Like
something went down that night and they were trying to

(57:51):
get away, and things just progressively just got worse and
worse and worse. And it just because there was no
reason for them to leave the car could have stayed
in Jack Madruga's car and stayed more. You just don't
all get out of a car and leave.

Speaker 1 (58:07):
I want to I want to backtrack for one second,
because there's a there's this question that it's kind of
a debate a little bit that I've seen happening between
people and its comment.

Speaker 2 (58:17):
I get a lot about this case, especially.

Speaker 1 (58:21):
In my presentation of it too, because I guess, I
guess what I said about it's different from what other
people have thought in terms of and in your book,
I saw it brought up a lot, not by you,
but by people you know you interviewed, And that's in
in any theory involving the that Jack Madruga and Bill
Sterling died on the way to the trailer, those theories,

(58:44):
especially in your book, often have Jackie Hewitt making him
making it there too alive.

Speaker 2 (58:51):
Yes, it's my it's my.

Speaker 1 (58:53):
Position that if if Sterling and Madruga died on the
way there, Hewitt likely did too. Do you know why
people think Hewitt made it to the trailer when as
far as I can tell, there's no evidence he ever
was in there.

Speaker 3 (59:08):
As far from what I remember, Jack's okay. So as
far as the parents go, the last of the parents
to die was Jackie Hewitt's dad, and that was around
twenty eighteen. He was the last surviving family member to
be interviewed. He was interviewed by a company called Mopak
Audio who did a Yuba podcast, and in his interview

(59:30):
he claimed that when he went into the trailer he
saw something written down in Jackie's handwriting, And people who
I've talked to who knew Ted and Jackie would say,
there's no way Ted would have left Jackie behind, or
vice versa. The bond that they had the friendship they had,

(59:53):
like leaving a friend behind to die and thinking about
that myself, I just can't bring myself to believe that
Ted would let Jackie just go off like that and perish.
I mean, it's interesting, and I've had discussions with you know,

(01:00:16):
four of the five families. Sterling's family was the only
one that didn't want to be interviewed, but that's been
consistent with them over the years. But the other families
I've talked to said, you know, it's either Doc stayed
back with Bill Sterling, or Bill Sterling stayed back with
Jack Madruga when Doc was Jack Madruga's nickname. When when

(01:00:37):
they were walking to the trailer, that's a possibility, or
they could have left together to go find help. But
they said to see those two close to where they were,
they felt that, for whatever reason, those two were together.
But other people that I've talked to family wise, if

(01:00:58):
they were going to put money on people getting in
to the trailer, it would have been Gary, Ted and
Jackie all getting into the trailer together.

Speaker 1 (01:01:08):
See has someone emailed me and they did say that
thing about Jackie Hewitt's father saying that I didn't know
where they got that information, So they got it from
a PODCA. But when they told me that, my immediate
thought was, if you're going to say that there was
evidence that Jackie Hewitt was in the trailer, then you're
almost saying that Lance Ayers wasn't really invested, the lead

(01:01:30):
investigator who wasn't really invested in solving this thing, because
there was never anything in the case file about evidence
Jackie was in the trailer, and I feel like they
wouldn't have ignored that. And in addition to that, when
you look at the state of decomposition on all three
of the bodies, Jackie Hewitt was maybe more, if not

(01:01:51):
equally decomposed as all the other two men. I mean,
they found his bones right, and he was must have
been out there at least as long as Madruga and
Sterling in my opinion, because he was there wasn't much
meat left on the bones, so to say, I mean,
he was quite skeletonized. And yeah, that to me says

(01:02:12):
he must have been there for a while. And I
got to think, you know, Ted, we're his feet were
so frostbitten and he was immobile for that, and I mean,
I don't know these guys personally, but you know, I mean,
if their feet were all starting to get like that,
you have to wonder if you know, the only guy

(01:02:33):
that really has shown that he could really endure that
kind of pain maybe was Matthias because he he did
some long treks on foot across the country and endured
that kind of thing.

Speaker 2 (01:02:45):
I don't know, what do you think about that?

Speaker 3 (01:02:48):
I mean, all valid points and I had the same
feelings about, you know, learning about decomposition and the people
that put together the Mopak audio, I think they talked
to an anthropologist and the doctor about how long does
it take to get for I mean, it's very morbid,
but for bodies to decay like that, And they talked

(01:03:10):
about how surprising it is that you could go from
zero point A to point B. Now, yeah, with the
temperature and with the thaw up there animals unfortunately getting
involved in this. The way that these bodies did decompose.
They did say, from their experience, the way bodies do decompose.

(01:03:32):
I don't want to get too graphic, but they said,
at times you are surprised to see how it gets
from one point to another. I'm not an expert in
the field, so I don't want to be quoted on
that directly. I do completely understand your point of view,
especially like with Jack Madruga, Bill Sterling and Jackie Hewitt.
And yeah, with Ted having frostbite. We did mopak audio.

(01:03:56):
Did talk to someone I heard that interview that had
into frostbite, and they say, when that kicks in, especially
if it's in your feet, walking becomes unbearable. So how
you can do a toy They were shocked that if
they could do this twelve mile walk with frostbite, right

(01:04:17):
because and I.

Speaker 1 (01:04:18):
Guess you know, it wasn't Jackie. Wasn't Jackie Hewitt's body
found like a mile maybe a little bit more from
the trailer.

Speaker 2 (01:04:25):
It's on there.

Speaker 1 (01:04:26):
And so to me, you know, if he was at
the trailer and then he left and we're saying he
only could make it a mile, I mean either he
was in horrible condition and he just decided to go
out in horrible condition and died after a mile. But
to me, that just sounds kind of weird. Why would
he leave in the first place if he was in
such bad condition? What it seems like, you know, if

(01:04:48):
you know, going the other direction, we're saying he was
walked almost eleven miles and would have collapsed, which feels.

Speaker 2 (01:04:55):
A lot, you know, I don't know. It's one of
those small points.

Speaker 1 (01:04:57):
I get a lot of comments about and and a
lot of questions about, you know, who made it to
what at what time?

Speaker 2 (01:05:04):
You know, but we really we don't know.

Speaker 1 (01:05:07):
I fully could believe in your theory that they all
made it there in some sense, you know, and that
maybe they you know, but then again, you know, we're
dealing with the situation where well we're saying Jackie only
made it a mile out from the trailer, you must
have been in horrible you know.

Speaker 2 (01:05:24):
I don't know.

Speaker 3 (01:05:24):
It's it's hard to tell because but even inside the trailer,
thirty of this roughly thirty sea rationing cans roment, right,
So it's it's.

Speaker 1 (01:05:33):
Not a lot for four people across or five people across.
How many months were they exactly? They think Ted Weir
was alive for eight to twelve weeks something like that.

Speaker 3 (01:05:44):
Yeah, And I mean his cause of death was pulmonary edema,
which I believe that's the pronunciation of the term. But yeah,
I mean, if if you're resting on your back and
you have all that pressure on your chest, that's incredibly
painful along with the frostbite, and he was experiencing I
think dane green from an infection are like a sort

(01:06:04):
of like a blood infection as well. So it wasn't
I mean it was. The clock was definitely ticking for
all of them. But you know, knowing Ted, how he
was able to manage for so long, and it's very
rough conditions. And like we said, like you know, people
get to the trailer and then they leave. How long

(01:06:25):
were they at the trailers? What we don't know. Could
they have been in there a day or two. Could
they have just gotten there and said, okay, Ted is
a place to rest. Maybe we can I don't know
what kind of second win you can get what happened.
And it's all of these unknowns within Nioba County five

(01:06:47):
case that we've been trying to put together since nineteen
seventy eight, because the big reason is why they exit
to go into Oreville because the only way they could
have ended up on that road, as if they went
into the town of Orville, which we've theorized that they
could have had to stop and use a restroom or

(01:07:08):
something happened where they had to pull off. You know,
the Highway and maybe somebody wanted to get something that
they didn't have a Bears market or whatever, and something
happens in Orville. Once they parked the car somewhere, they
meet up with some people they know who have unfinished
business with someone, or some of them in the group,
or they run into some drunk people in the community

(01:07:30):
who might have, you know, seen that the guys were
you know, developed me developmentally disabled, and may have wanted
to start a fight or something. And there's all these
questions because you've got to get on that Raville Quincy
Highway to get into the Plumas. And once you're in
the Plumus, you of all the roads that they picked,

(01:07:53):
they picked them one that's like middle nowhere, like towards
a point that I talked to someone who worked in
the Plumus at the time. They said, there's a point
where they would have driven and the road would have
been like there would have been a chain across the
road blocking it, saying you can't you can't keep going.
So let's see they see that sign or those chains.

(01:08:17):
They could have just turned around on the road, pulled
back on that way down the hill. Okay, but why'd
they go up a side road that went nowhere, and
there's nothing as far as sign age that would have said,
oh yeah, this connects to highway whatever it didn't, and
yeah there was oh go ahead.

Speaker 1 (01:08:37):
You certainly get the feeling that whatever drove them up there,
there was some unknown force behind it. And but what
kind of confounds that statement in a way is that
Madruga had his keys on him.

Speaker 2 (01:08:53):
They were found with the body.

Speaker 1 (01:08:55):
So the idea that someone else drove the car seems
odd at that point that Madrud would have the keys
back at somehow. And and so if he's the one driving,
how do you get them up there? You know, or
someone driving behind them, which you know, there is some
some evidence to support that with one of Showan's his

(01:09:16):
own stories.

Speaker 2 (01:09:17):
Well no, yeah, yeah, you.

Speaker 1 (01:09:19):
Know, he talks about he talks about so many things.
But you know, one of his one of his stories
was that a car followed him so closely that it
made him so angry and and then he got stuck.
And then another one he's saying somebody was following the
boys essentially, and you know, and so it's who is
following who and what's you know, they're completely different stories,
and it makes me angry just thinking about it sometimes,

(01:09:41):
because it's like it sends you in completely different directions
each time, you know.

Speaker 3 (01:09:48):
Yeah, I was talking to a few people who had
experiences in the Plumus where they were just riding around
up there and they just come across people and they
were not very friendly and asking him like, what are
you doing up here? You up here? What's going on?
And one person I was talking to you said they
were just taking like their motorcycle out. They were riding
around and they came on a road and the car

(01:10:10):
was sort of at an angle and there was a
guy with a gun, almost like some sort of like
walking dead into you know, kind of scenario where you're
running into some of these people and guys like what
are you doing up here? He's like, I'm just riding
my bike and he's like go home, and the guy's
like fine. And I've heard that from people like, man,

(01:10:32):
there's a different group of people up there in diplomas.
I mean, it's you run across the wrong person, it's
going to be you know, it's going to be rough.
And is that something that could have happened. Possibly, I don't.

Speaker 1 (01:10:47):
Know, but I've always had the feeling that a gun
was involved. When I picture it in my head, five
guns has to be five guys running upwards, you know,
like you don't you don't just go up, you know.
They knew where they came from, and they knew where
they could get to, maybe the mountain house or whatever.
Running down is the obvious choice if you are free
and stuck.

Speaker 2 (01:11:06):
In that area.

Speaker 1 (01:11:07):
But they went up, and that really sounds like someone
forced them up, said go run up this way, you know, almost,
and they only do that with five guys like that.
Would you know someone would need to have like a
gun or you outnumber them by a great deal, you know.
And and and you know, in my in my video
I made on it, I kind of proposed that maybe

(01:11:28):
this was Showen's who I don't think I outright said
he would have a gun, but that was always my thought.

Speaker 2 (01:11:33):
Maybe he had a gun and did it.

Speaker 1 (01:11:34):
You know, I didn't want to say it at the time,
but not now, you know.

Speaker 2 (01:11:38):
But that doesn't solve the problem of how did they
get there?

Speaker 3 (01:11:41):
Right, And that's what the parents were asked. When you know,
they were looking for the guys and they didn't have
much of clues. They said, hey, if someone comes up
to a gun to your son. How do you think
they'd react Aarone's like, well, they'd be complicit, they'd comply
with the person with a gun and follow orders. And
that's been mentioned quite a bit with this case, is

(01:12:03):
that someone probably had a gun. And it's the reason
why the window was rolled down partially on the Montego
is that Madruger or someone in the car could have
been talking to someone and they could have just pulled
a gun on him and like get out. Because it
also explains why five people would exit a car. Well

(01:12:24):
someone and I know people have said, well they were
stuck and they freaked out. Well, you know, you could
get out of the car and try walking down the
road towards a place like Mountain House. And the person
I talked to that did work for the Forestry Service said,
when you get up into the plumas in certain areas

(01:12:45):
during the wintertime, it's beyond I mean, he said it
was super easy to get lost up there and to
get disoriented because there was just something about the place
where you start walking. You want to make sure that
you're like marking your path, or you've got a good
sense of direction, or you've got a compass or something,
because it's he says, it's just kind of scary. It

(01:13:10):
could be scary up there and downright overwhelming being up
in the plumas that time of year, especially when you
got snow everywhere and it's just like an unforgiving landscape.

Speaker 1 (01:13:22):
Well, I know you've got to go real soon, but
I just want to ask you know, I'm sure people
are going to wonder. You've done a tremendous amount of
research on this case. Your book again called Things Aren't Right.
It's a great I'll link it in the description so
people can go and buy it if they want. It
has all the information you could ever want on the case.
But you've looked into this so much? Is there Do

(01:13:45):
you have a certain theory you lean towards I'm not
necessarily concrete or anything, or do you have a certain
someone you think might have been holding that gun you
think may have been used? Where do you kind of
go on this? Do you do you lean any direction.

Speaker 3 (01:14:00):
Towards one person in particular? I know that there is
a possible there's a lot of names that have come
up over the years where people say, you know, you
got to look at this person, you got to look
at this person, and sometimes you find names of people
by talking to certain people, like well, there was this
person and then there was this person. What I believe

(01:14:22):
is they exited the highway at Oraville for a reason,
and I think it was either used the restroom or
to do something. And when they exited and wherever they stopped,
something happened at the place where they stopped, and everything
just began to unravel. And I think they knew something

(01:14:47):
was about to go down and it was serious, and
they decided to make a run for it and get
away from the problem. And that was unsuccessful, and either
they're forced up the road by someone or they get
chased by someone, and it's the reason why the car

(01:15:09):
is abandoned in the middle of nowhere. That's why they
never stayed in the car. I mean, they could have
waited until morning to get out of the car or
find help, and it just didn't happen. And that's been
my theory for a long time because when you get
when you see, oh they got lost. You know, I've

(01:15:31):
driven that way up into the Plumas twice during the
day and during the night. You got plenty of places
to turn around, and there's no way you make this
drive by accident. I mean it's because if you drive
around Marysville, if you drive around to give a city,
drive up towards Chico, it's flat, there's you're going to

(01:15:54):
see trees, especially because it's the area is tied to agriculture,
so you know what the lay of the land is.
And you can see the foothills of the Sierra in
the distance. And once you're up there, you know you're
not heading home. You're going way far away from home.
And so something really went wrong and things weren't right

(01:16:18):
at the time, and it's driven a lot of people crazy.
I mean, this February twenty fourth coming up, so this
will be the forty sixth anniversary of the case, because
last year is the forty fifth and we're still no
closer to having any answers than we were back then.
And I'm hoping the book kind of jumps start someone's

(01:16:39):
memory or allow someone to come forward and say, hey,
this is what I know. This is what someone told me,
because I've heard that myself from people in the area.
They're like, well, this is what we heard happen. I'm like, well,
that's pretty serious, and something I don't say publicly because
it's like it's just a rumor a lot of and
if there's truth to the rumor, then please help, you

(01:17:01):
know what I mean? Because what's interesting is like you
have all these people who aren't close, who don't know
each other, who are just random people in the area,
and they're all kind of telling similar stories. How does
that happen? I mean, that's that's quite a I mean,
it's quite a I don't know, urban legend. On one hand,

(01:17:22):
it could be, But at the same time, if there's
fact to this, you're going to have to start connecting
the dots and figure out, like what happened to these guys.
But I truly think whatever happened, I've often felt like
the person that it was connected to was probably Gary Matthias.
I think, for whatever reason, oh, someone someone that night

(01:17:45):
may have you know, they had a lot of enemies, right, yeah,
I mean Gary, you know, a month or two before
the guys went missing, had a couple of fights at
two parties, and it could have been some unfinished business
between this person and Gary, and I think things could

(01:18:06):
have gotten It's easy for things to get out of hand,
and I think that's what could have happened that night. Again,
no solid evidence, no concrete proof, It's just a theory.
And I'm glad that so many people are interested in
the case, and I'm glad that you had a chance
to work on the video as well. And I like
the fact that you were able to look through the
ub County Sheriff's Department files as well and look through,

(01:18:29):
you know, all the research information that we have and
to continue to bring the story out there, because if
you look at like all the YouTube channels and podcasts,
I mean, this story is popular not only in the
United States but around the world, and it's a mystery
that people have been talking about since twenty eighteen when
this story came back. And I don't know the person

(01:18:51):
that brought the story back into the spotlight, but I'm
glad they did, because this story could have been buried
in time and nobody really caring. And I'm discovering there's
a lot of people who care, and people are doing
research in other countries on the case and really want
this mystery solved. So it's great to see people like
yourself out there doing the right thing and doing great

(01:19:13):
work and trying to bring this story back into the
spotlight and just giving people, you know, something to think
about with this case and help out with theories and anything.
I mean, it's greatly appreciated.

Speaker 2 (01:19:25):
Yeah, no, thank you, and I appreciate your work as well.

Speaker 1 (01:19:28):
I was really cool to see someone who had interviewed
all the family members. I remember when I tried to
get in touch with some of the family I remember
I contacted one of them and they said they were
they couldn't talk to me because they had signed a
contract with someone who was making a documentary about the thing.

Speaker 2 (01:19:44):
And so I was like, whoa, there's.

Speaker 1 (01:19:46):
Some somebody's making a documentary in the background somewhere about this.

Speaker 2 (01:19:49):
I don't know what it is.

Speaker 1 (01:19:50):
But so it was great to actually hear from the
families through your book, and anyone who is interested in
this on any level should check a check out Tony's book.
It's called Things Aren't Right. It's it's got all the
information you'd ever want. I mean, it's very thorough. Like
you said, there's nothing I would I could have thought

(01:20:12):
to add to it. And and you don't put a
lot of you know, I liked also comment you don't
put a lot of your own stuff in there. Until
the end you know, at the end you kind of go,
this is kind of what I think after but mostly
let the people do the talking who were involved in
the case.

Speaker 3 (01:20:28):
That's important.

Speaker 2 (01:20:29):
I appreciated that.

Speaker 3 (01:20:30):
Good.

Speaker 1 (01:20:31):
You know, there wasn't a lot of your own narrative
in there, which is great.

Speaker 3 (01:20:35):
Yeah. A lot of these people never had a chance
to talk to the press, and it was their time
to get what they wanted off their chest. And I'm like,
let you know, just share with what you want to share.
And I'm glad that they did. And I'm glad that
they're you know, they're in the book and you can
hear what they have to say. And it's great knowing

(01:20:56):
that I'm still in contact with the families and we've
formed a great friend and chip and bond and you
can't beat that.

Speaker 1 (01:21:02):
Yeah, yeah, that's great. So again, people check out the book.
Things aren't right link in the description. Anything else you
want to add, Tony.

Speaker 2 (01:21:12):
Or are we good?

Speaker 3 (01:21:13):
We are good. Thank you for having me on the show.
Like I said, the two part video series you did
was great. I really appreciate it. Thank you all. Please
check out the book and we'll talk again sooner than later.

Speaker 2 (01:21:26):
Absolutely, Thanks Tony.