February 21, 2025 • 75 mins
The full four part conversation with Dr. Sean Lawrence, assisant professor of history at WVU, on the rise and fall of Nazi Germany.
Part One -- What is Naziism? (0:00)
Part Two -- History and counterfactual history (17:07)
Part Three -- Why the Nazis stand out compared to other groups they get compared to, on the insidiousness of Nazi bureacracy, and the Nazi legal framework for mass genocide (38:06)
Part Four -- On 'astonishing Charles Darwin' and the Final Solution in Nazi Germany (1:00:00)
Special thanks to Dr. Lawrence for spending more than an hour discussing the subject.
Part One -- What is Naziism? (0:00)
Part Two -- History and counterfactual history (17:07)
Part Three -- Why the Nazis stand out compared to other groups they get compared to, on the insidiousness of Nazi bureacracy, and the Nazi legal framework for mass genocide (38:06)
Part Four -- On 'astonishing Charles Darwin' and the Final Solution in Nazi Germany (1:00:00)
Special thanks to Dr. Lawrence for spending more than an hour discussing the subject.
Mark as Played
Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:01):
Ladies and gentlemen, grab your coffee and donuts, because it's
time for the Morning Spiel, brought to you by Royal Water.
The Athenians and topics discussed on the show do not
reflect that of WVRC Media or our advertisers. Now we
head straight to the one o three to three WKMZ
newsroom with your host, Alex Widerspiel.
Speaker 2 (00:22):
This is the Morning Spiel presented by Royal Water Treat
and I want to three three WKMZ. Good morning, folks,
thanks for being here with us today. Hopefully you've enjoyed
the Friday Free for All, a two hour extravaganza of
high school basketball we just discussed and we're moving on.
Speaker 3 (00:38):
So today I got a couple of things going on.
Speaker 2 (00:40):
First and foremost, I gonna say we're gonna do with
a final part of our series with doctor Sean Lawrence,
and we're gonna post the full show in full podcast form,
the full hour and twenty minute interview today, so you
can check that out and it will still be in
individual parts, so you can listen that way as well,
(01:00):
should you prefer it in more bite sized pieces, but
you'll be able to listen to it in your own
preferred way in podcast form. Second, of course, the Friday
free for all is going to be posted here as
soon as possible, so check that out later this morning
if you missed it at all. Lots of good basketball
talk thanks to our guests who are on the show today.
Heard from Craig Dutton, heard from Chris George, Travis Jones,
(01:24):
and Bill Nestor, who did double duty today because Bill
also jumped in to talk a little bit about South Harrison.
Speaker 3 (01:30):
He really did triple duty today.
Speaker 2 (01:31):
But thanks to everybody who participated in today's show. All
that being said, we were just one of the things
we actually just wrapped on over you know, over there.
It's funny for me, you know, we do these shows
back to back and so it kind of feels like
they bleed into each.
Speaker 3 (01:47):
Other a little bit.
Speaker 2 (01:47):
In most days we do, you know, more high school
basketball stuff on Fridays. Today not doing that. It's you know,
if you want to know how the sausage gets made.
Definitely a little bit a little bit tougher with everything
that's going on with the swim meet as well as
everything else. A lot of folks really tied up with
what's going on there, so a lot of the potential
(02:10):
bonus guests tied up for the conversation that I wanted
to have. That said, I also did want to get
the Sean Lawrence interview finished. When I realized we only
had about fifteen minutes to go in it, I just said,
you know what, We're just going to power through this
thing and I get it done on Friday, so the
whole thing can be done in one week and not
have to be split up over multiple weeks. Okay, but
(02:30):
all that being said, you know, it is funny. Geopolitical
tensions were certainly no no stranger to what was going
on during Nazi Germany and sports as well. And that's
not to compare America or not to compare any nation
in fact, just more of the fact that geopolitical tension
(02:51):
in sports are nothing new, and that the way Canada
winds up winning last night certainly is in line with
sort of the history of you know, when geopolitical attention,
when geopolitical geopolitical issues are occurring simultaneously to new attention
(03:12):
being granted to a sport that's maybe not as popular.
Speaker 3 (03:17):
It has happened before.
Speaker 2 (03:18):
We've seen it in multiple places throughout history, and it's
not a surprise. But I will say this so I
know there are folks who are disappointed last from last
night's outcome. I'm disappointed with last night's outcome, and that
even though I certainly disagree with the rhetoric and I'm
unhappy that Donald Trump, who did to his credit, I'm
(03:39):
glad that he called team USA. I think that that's
I mean, if you're the president of the United States
and you've got the ability to call the team representing
your nation in such a unique situation like I again,
keep in mind that there is no other USA Canada
matchup going on right now and in sports, this is
the only one, and you have the ability to make
(03:59):
that call very good.
Speaker 3 (04:00):
I don't like that he brought politics up on the call.
Speaker 2 (04:03):
I think that that's really inappropriate and not something you
should do, and you should not force players.
Speaker 3 (04:07):
To have to do that stuff, because while I will
tell you I think.
Speaker 2 (04:11):
Just from my own knowledge, I think a lot of
the hockey world it's probably it's one of the more
politically conservative.
Speaker 3 (04:20):
Basis of athlete.
Speaker 2 (04:23):
I still think most of them would prefer to be
as a political as possible, especially in that moment, especially
with their Canadian friends. They play with Canadian players. I
don't think he should have brought up politics on that call.
Even still, the history of geopolitical tensions occurring and sort
of bleeding through sport as we saw last night. In fact,
(04:44):
in a lot of ways, you know, as Team USA
was actually the favorite last night, they were a goal
and a half favorite. It almost felt in some ways
like it was Canada's turn to get sort of that
miracle on ice. In some ways, now that's little bit silly,
and it's throwing your own right, because the Canadians have
the most talented forward group in the world, right, and
(05:05):
they certainly had. Boy, you'd be hard pressed out to
say that they didn't have three of the ten best
players on the planet on the ice last night, and
two of the best five on the ice last night,
that including the very best who scored the game winning goal.
But it's a great game, just phenomenal game. And my
ultimate point is that you know, if you got into
(05:27):
it because you're thinking to yourself, well, I want to
root on Team USA, you know, you want.
Speaker 3 (05:30):
To stick it to Canada.
Speaker 2 (05:32):
And if if your motivations were primary political, here's what
I at least hope occurred. If you weren't a hockey
fan before you got to see such a high quality
of game that you're a hockey fan now. Don't let
the outcome disappoint you, because while it is disappointing, the
four Nation's face off is not the be all end all.
It is a first time tournament meant to be, meant
(05:55):
to be used like a plane lifting off.
Speaker 3 (05:58):
It is a runway to the Olympics.
Speaker 2 (06:01):
And boy, what would I wouldn't give to just be
able to fast forward to the year twenty twenty six
right now, to be able to fast forward to early
twenty twenty six. Quite literally, we're gonna be talking about
this about a year from now. They're gonna be going
into the Olympic break and we're gonna be getting a
chance to watch international best on best play involving more
than just these four nations. But we're gonna be able
to get a chance to see the Germans, who have
(06:23):
one of the players who didn't get to play last night,
and Leon Dreichsitle who plays with Connor McDavid. He didn't
get to play at all in this tournament because the
Germans didn't have enough NHL players to field a roster.
Speaker 3 (06:34):
I will tell you.
Speaker 2 (06:35):
I don't think that's gonna be I don't think that's
gonna be an issue forever. That is a Germany from
a hockey perspective, is a rising nation. They have two
of the better players in the league right now and
Leon drey Sittle and more at cider defenseman for Detroit.
So I don't think that that's gonna be that way forever.
And I think the Olympic hockey, the only difference will
(06:57):
be is that it won't be quite as physical because
it'll be i i HF, which is international rules instead
of NHL rules. Believe me when I say this, it's
it's still going to be just as fast. It's still
going to be just as fast and just as hard.
I don't know that you're gonna see the fighting though.
That's the one difference I think that was. That was
a fun bit. I don't want to call it a
(07:17):
GIMMI because that's not fair. That was a fun novelty
that could only occur because it was NHL rules and
NHL referees during that game on Saturday over the weekend.
But I wish we could just fast forward to the
Olympics because I could watch that level of hockey. I
could watch it all day and hopefully if you walked
out of that disappointed last night, but you were new
(07:37):
to the sport, you still came away thinking to yourself, Man,
wasn't that entertaining? What a fun unbelievable in three hours
that I just spent well worth it. This is me
the ambassador for the game. I'm i'm, I'm I love
I love it, and I told you folks that I
I would love to see high school hockey continue to
(07:58):
expand in West virgin And you know, there were two
players last night on the ice who are essentially Appalachian
by definition, in Vincent Trochech who's a Pittsburgh eighte and JT. Miller,
who's from East Palestine, Ohio. So by definition, those guys
who actually grew up playing together on youth teams together
(08:20):
for Team USA, those guys, those guys are Appalachians. There
can be Appalachian hockey, and in fact, there's pretty good
club hockey at West Virginia University. There's good club hockey
at Ohio University. There's some D one hockey at the
NC DOUBLEA level in in Apalachia. There's a school in
(08:41):
the Pittsburgh area. It's gonna bug me that I can't
remember which one it is. I don't think it's Ducane,
not that it matters at the moment, but there are
a couple, not many. There's only something like seventy three
D one D one n Cuba hockey teams. And I
certainly hope we're going to see more route and it's
my it's my dream to see when come to West Virginia.
(09:04):
The problem is the rink. That's gonna be the big challenge.
But uh, anyway, enough of my hockey ranting. I we
we can, we can, we can leave it there. I,
like I said.
Speaker 3 (09:15):
Geopolitical tensions.
Speaker 2 (09:16):
And you know, if if you came to the sport
because you were you were cheering on America specifically because
of the whole America Canada thing that did not exist before.
Donald Trump, during the transition period from from after the
election made the comment about the fifty first state, stay
for the hockey, Stay for the hockey because yes, now
(09:37):
the tension through sport will not be there as much.
We'll certainly see how the the actual political tension goes,
but the tension through sport isn't going to be there
for for now.
Speaker 3 (09:50):
That undertone is not if, if ever going to come back.
Speaker 2 (09:53):
This may really only be a one time thing, but
you're gonna have to go another year until that comes back.
Speaker 3 (09:58):
So stay for the hockey, stay for the puck. All right.
Speaker 2 (10:01):
That said, let's take a break, and we're gonna get
to your news and sports headlines on the other side
of this break on the radio side of things. In
podcast forms straight into your main segment, which is our
final part of our conversation with doctor Sean Lawrence. If
you're listening on the radio, that will come of course
after the news and sports headlines, and if you're a
podcast listener, all of this is gonna be very easily
explained and laid out for you in podcast form. All
(10:23):
you gotta do is just like subscribe or download at
your preferred podcasting platform, or make it even easier, go
to our home base, the Spreaker wrapp download Spreaker and
you'll be able to access it. All right, I'm Alex
weeters Peap. We got to take a break. My voice
is nearing the end of its life cycle here, which
is great because I gotta call a game tonight, so
I'm gonna get some I'm gonna get some camameal tea
(10:43):
and rest up and get myself ready for some some
basketball this evening. In the meantime, we'll talk with you
guys all here on just the other side of this
break back after this on the Morning Spiel.
Speaker 1 (10:55):
Now back to the Morning Spiel, brought to you by
Royal Water on govern uw KMZ.
Speaker 2 (11:02):
So this is the final part of our conversation with
doctor Sean Lawrence, assistant professor of history at West Virginia
University and specializing in modern German history.
Speaker 3 (11:12):
And there are a couple of things I wanted to
note here.
Speaker 2 (11:15):
We were talking about what ultimately led to the Nazis
coming to the final solution, which was to exterminate the
European Jewish population ultimately six million Jews approximately dead. Twelve
million people approximately dead just in labor camps and death
camps alone. And I always like to include that extra
six million, because I find it odd that we focused
(11:37):
so much time on six million Jews. But there were
six million polls and political prisoners, communists, people who were disabled,
and other Nazi deemed undesirables who were a part of this.
Speaker 3 (11:48):
It was not just.
Speaker 2 (11:49):
Jews, though certainly they obviously made up the largest brunt
of that of that population, Romani people were also in
there as well. Not to exclude anybody who's there. I
think I've I've listened. LGBTQ folks were in there, though
mostly it was I think it was just gay and
lesbian at the time. All that said, I wanted to
(12:10):
focus before we get to the sort of never again,
which has been the refrain that I always heard in
my entire life. But the language that was used ultimately
is where I'm most I think alarmed, because I don't
think it's not like I think we're walking down this
path now. I don't want to make that comparison because
I just think it is again historically unfair when you
(12:33):
consider what the Nazis actually did. I'm gonna quote I
don't know if this is a real this is a
real actual someone said this, but it is from the
movie Conspiracy, which is about the Vance conference and is
based on the minutes of that meeting. But at the
end of the meeting they're saying like, let's astonish Charles Darwin.
Speaker 3 (12:50):
Well, no one else has has quite attempted to do that.
Speaker 2 (12:53):
But again goes a little bit into the mindset there
where this for them. They felt like this was Darwinistic
in a sense that they were going to be doing
a service to their to the human species by undertaking
this path. And so I don't want to draw the
comparison that I think we are headed down that path.
I think it would take just a myriad number of
(13:14):
things for that to occur in the Western world, in
the United States. But there have been genocides in the
twenty first century. We know that there have been other
genocides in the twentieth century.
Speaker 3 (13:24):
Outside of the Holocaust. We know that as well.
Speaker 2 (13:27):
I am curious, though, are there warning signs that people
can can look at and go, ah, don't like that?
Is language one of those things? And outside of language,
what could other warning signs particularly look like in those moments?
So is there a common thread between the genocides that
we have seen outside of Nazi Germany and then within.
Speaker 4 (13:57):
If I could, there are two two kind of questions
I think, I think break it together there, right, because
one is the question of genocide, of course, and another
is the question of Nazism or or fascism if you like, right,
And there is always this implicit assumption, and this really
(14:18):
goes back to the very start of our conversation that
if you are talking about fascism, what you were talking
about specifically is a movement or an ideology that will
eventually lead to genocide. And as you point out, there
(14:43):
have been a number of genocides, or.
Speaker 5 (14:50):
What I can be reasonably called genocides.
Speaker 4 (14:52):
The definition depends on which definition you choose, right, how
that if you want to choose a number, but there's
certainly been a number of them, and not all of
them are.
Speaker 5 (15:05):
Carried out by a group or groups that can reasonably
be called fascists.
Speaker 4 (15:11):
Likewise, there are all kinds of groups or individuals in
the twentieth century that clearly I attempted to recreate fascism
in their own countries who did not. You know, they
may have caused all kinds of havoc, but didn't perpetrate
what can reasonably call the genocide. So, in looking for
(15:34):
warning signs, one thing that I think we could.
Speaker 5 (15:38):
All start doing.
Speaker 4 (15:41):
Is to realize that we're talking about two distinct, albeit
related things, and that just because we're looking for warning
signs of the one does not necessarily mean that we're
looking for warning signs at the other, and vice versa.
So what I mean by that is, if what you're
interested in is I'll start with fascism. If you're looking
(16:04):
to know, okay, is is this or that movement in
this or that country?
Speaker 5 (16:11):
Does that seem like a fascist movement?
Speaker 4 (16:14):
Because because of the history, because we all live in
a world where fascists existed called themselves as such, you know,
eighty one hundred years ago, very few groups are going
to use that term explicitly. And yet there are all
kinds of ways that you can still be, you know,
fascist in every way that matters. And so you know,
(16:35):
if you're looking at the nineteen twenties, you had brown
shirts in Germany, you had white brain shirts Italy.
Speaker 5 (16:42):
Basically, fascists identify themselves.
Speaker 4 (16:45):
They're a member, they're members of a group they have
It's like they want to be a part of a
part of a team.
Speaker 1 (16:50):
Right.
Speaker 4 (16:51):
It is a very explicit sort of a movement. They
have they have apparel, right, and they have flags, they
have symbols, they have all kinds of things that that
demonstrate from one another that you're a member of the
in group.
Speaker 5 (17:02):
Okay.
Speaker 4 (17:03):
Fascism is also always about and this is why it
obviously relates to genocide, even if it's not that we
shouldn't treat them as exactly the same. There's always about
you know, purifying the nation, right, It's it's about trying
to remove what is impure and to create a healthy
body politic, there's often these sort of organic metaphors, uh,
(17:28):
you know, related to evolution or Darwinism, right, though not always.
And another thing about fascism is it's obsessed with the
relationship between the state and the and and the.
Speaker 5 (17:41):
Person, right of the individual.
Speaker 4 (17:42):
So, you know, Mussolini some you might call him the
first fascist, depending on how to find it. Uh you know,
he said, you know, for us, the state is everything
and and then nothing is outside the state, right and
for and for Hitler, the state and the nation were
exactly identical, you can and separate. Though other fascist movements,
(18:04):
you know, emphasize how they are going to free the
society from from the state itself.
Speaker 5 (18:11):
Uh, you know in.
Speaker 4 (18:16):
The Balkan well you know, the in the in uh
post Soviet Balkans precent. But it's always about kicking on anger. Now,
that's where we get to genocide.
Speaker 5 (18:26):
And that this tendency that is not unique to fascism.
Speaker 4 (18:31):
But is usually a well, I guess always a part
of fascism, this tendency to define the in group, the
nation as everything that is pure and good.
Speaker 5 (18:41):
Usually it's been victimized in some way.
Speaker 4 (18:43):
In Germany loses the First War, World War Italy, you know,
treated badly, and uh it is it is about getting revenge.
It's also always about expansion. There's always an expansionist element
to this, you know, looking for a conquest. And none
(19:06):
of those things necessarily relate to genocide. But when you
start hearing groups of people and this is this is
why the term dehumanization now.
Speaker 5 (19:15):
Gets it's it's it gets tossed around a lot, but
it's important.
Speaker 4 (19:22):
When you begin removing the ability for people within a
society to defend themselves as people, either linguistically by saying like,
you know that in the case of Germany, right, like
to be a Jew all of a sudden after nineteen
thirty three meant you could not also be a German,
(19:45):
right or you know, I mean there was I suppose
there was a there's a few years of a process
whereby that became the case, But before that that was
not even remotely the case. Right, you could be German
and Jewish, you could be German and Protestant whatever, and
so all of a sudden, the people who were Jewish
in Germany were nothing but that, and suddenly you've essentialized
(20:09):
that group of people. The last piece though, between that
that the last piece of fascism, that is, you know
where you may be if you're looking for warning signs,
you maybe want to sort of look for a jumping
off point is violet. Fascist movements are always violent, and
(20:32):
by that I mean they start out often as almost
like like almost like fight clubs, like street brawling groups
usually brawl usually, you know, this was certainly the case
in Germany. Uh, gangs of of of of young men
who would go around basically to beat up commomists, right,
(20:52):
and all of a sudden that creates tension obviously very often,
and I just want to be cleric, like, there really
was a chance of a communist takeover in Germany in
the nineteen pointies. I mean they were like there were plenty,
there there was a.
Speaker 2 (21:08):
They held they held seats in the German parliament, right,
absolutely they did.
Speaker 4 (21:13):
And in fact, uh, and you know, maybe this is
more of a lesson for political elites, but not only
did they hold seats in parliament, but they were some
of the they cast were actually I should say, withheld
some of the key votes to bring down the government.
That was the last bash between a Nazi between Adolf
(21:34):
Hitler as chancellor and the continuation of the Weimar Republic,
and the communists chose to ally with the Nazis to
destroy the moderate left government.
Speaker 5 (21:47):
In order. I mean, I don't know what their plan was.
I kind of know what their plan was, but it
doesn't matter. It was a bad plan.
Speaker 4 (21:55):
But anyway, yes, they had they held seats of government
and none only that, I mean they had, you know.
Speaker 5 (21:59):
There was there.
Speaker 4 (22:00):
It was called the spartest of supprising, like there had
been actual attempts at a coup, a communist takeover in
Germany and continuous. So I just want to clarify that, Like,
it's not like fascist groups come into exist into existence
or fascist movement comes into its existence, spreads chaos and
(22:21):
then profits from it. They contribute to chaos. There's there
is need to crack down, perhaps to bring things, you know.
Speaker 5 (22:29):
On whatever the the the uh.
Speaker 4 (22:33):
State that exists has to crack down to try to
you know, preserve order in society. That crackdown then is
often used, certainly in the case of Italy certain the
case of Germany, UH it is then used as sort
of rhetorically a bludgeon against the government, saying, look, you
know you.
Speaker 5 (22:53):
Are you are.
Speaker 4 (22:55):
Infringing on uh you know, we who represent the true
the folk in the case of Germany, the true people,
the true nation. You are infringing on our ability to
prevent this communist takeover. You're helping the communists, You're part
of this conspiracy, et cetera, et cetera. But the violent
part of it is so important because it's really easy.
(23:19):
And this is where I think that we You know,
every US president in my lifetime has been compared to
Adolf Hitler, which is wild because I'm not as young
as I would like to be, and so I have
seen a number of US presidents are all very different in.
Speaker 5 (23:38):
All kinds of ways.
Speaker 1 (23:39):
And the.
Speaker 4 (23:42):
Thing that you like need to sort of have the
bat in the back of your head is, I think
the willingness of the movement, the willingness of the group
that you are concerned that may sort of be moving towards,
if not genocide. We could we can use the term
ethnic cleansing, which can mean a variety of things.
Speaker 5 (24:04):
Isn't necessarily you.
Speaker 4 (24:05):
Know, mass murder, but can mean you know, the end
of the way of life, destruction, moving people away, whatever,
the the willingness of that movement to really lean in
to the importance of violence at the lower level, the
(24:26):
middle level, and the upper level of how power is wielded.
Speaker 5 (24:31):
That I think is is perhaps the.
Speaker 4 (24:34):
Most important part of how you could And again, as
you said, history may rhyme, but it really doesn't repeat itself.
So the next the next tragedy in our world, it
may well be something that can't be predicted and can't
be helped. But for my money, you know, looking to
those to those things, you know, being a member of
(24:55):
the group wanting to uh or a movement that is
all about for acting the end group pushing out what
it ess outsider's willingness to use violence.
Speaker 5 (25:06):
Those are those are key.
Speaker 2 (25:10):
All right, very good. I think we can leave it there.
I think that's that's a good as good a place
as any to stop.
Speaker 3 (25:19):
Big, big ideas.
Speaker 2 (25:21):
All floated around and and just a ton of good information.
And folks, if you're listening to this live on the radio,
please note that all three parts of these are together
in podcast form, where you can find them at the
Spreaker app or the WKMZ news dot com website, or
your preferred podcasting platform.
Speaker 3 (25:42):
If you don't want to go to either of those, Okay,
we'll leave it there.
Speaker 1 (25:46):
Never miss an episode. Recorded versions of The Morning Spiel
are online at w kmznews dot com.
Speaker 3 (25:57):
Thanks to doctor Sean Lawrence for doing that.
Speaker 2 (26:00):
For sitting down with me for that full hour and
twenty minute interview. Knew the conversation was really good. I
was really enjoying. I was learning a lot from him,
and I just you know, I didn't want to as
long as he was willing to keep going, I didn't
want to stop it, and so, of course, for that reason,
we just kept going. And I knew, well, this is
going to be this is going to be a challenge
when it comes to dealing with this for radio purposes.
(26:20):
And I didn't even realize at first. I thought, Okay,
we'll do this. At first I thought two parts, then
I thought three parts, and then I realized we'll have
to do this in four.
Speaker 3 (26:29):
Kind of wild.
Speaker 2 (26:30):
Actually, I just didn't expect the conversation to go on
for that length of time. By the way, one clarification
from earlier in the show, because I was not comparing
the USA to Nazism. I was just saying that there's
geopolitical issues during say the Olympics in I was at
nineteen thirty was it the thirty six Olympics that were
hosted in Munich are in Germany. I'm a Berlin maybe
(26:54):
nineteen thirty six Olympics, but it's also happened, you know,
for example, the the.
Speaker 3 (27:01):
Other Olympics.
Speaker 2 (27:03):
You know, obviously kind of a big one that the
nineteen eighty Olympics in the US, it's a huge geopolitical
moment where you've got the Soviet invasion of Afghanistan going on, right, Yeah,
the nineteen thirty six Summer Olympics were held in Berlin,
but you've got the Soviet invasion of Afghanistan going on.
And then the backdrop of all of that is Team USA,
(27:26):
who was not using NHL players at this time, gets
this improbable victory over the Soviets. And if you watched
last night, you obviously saw the imagery they kept using
from the movie Miracle. They laid it on a little
bit thick because obviously, listen, that was truly and remains
you got to understand that was the greatest upset still
(27:47):
to this day.
Speaker 3 (27:48):
It's the greatest upset in sports.
Speaker 2 (27:50):
You're talking about a bunch of NC DOUBLEA players at
a time when the NC DOUBLEA was not as strong
as it is now, a bunch of NC DOUBLEA hockey
players went and upset the greatest international playing at the time,
even better than Canada, greatest international playing nation on the
(28:11):
face of the earth, with players at the top of
their game that rivaled NHL players. And that in fact,
because the Soviets played such a distinct style of hockey.
They played, as I understand it, something equivalent to like
Dutch total football. It's what they It was what the
Soviets played at the time. And because they were obviously
(28:33):
extremely insular, and you had a situation where the Soviets
were only playing with each other, it resulted in the
how well.
Speaker 3 (28:49):
Coached they were.
Speaker 2 (28:51):
They knew each other so perfectly well that when they
played the NHL All Stars that even and they did
that in I want to say nineteen seventy nine, and
they played the NHL All Stars in an exhibition match,
and even though the NHL All Stars were probably just
as talented as the Soviet national team, they couldn't hang
with those guys.
Speaker 3 (29:11):
They couldn't hang with those guys.
Speaker 2 (29:12):
So that was amidst the backdrop of everything the Soviet
invasion of Afghanistan, Jimmy Carter is threatening the possibility of
boycotting the Olympics that were set to be in the
Soviet Union later on in I believe what I say,
eighty two, but no in nineteen eighty Lake Placid. So
just geopolitical tensions, there's there's definitely no shortage of that
(29:33):
in the history of sports, and it makes for an
interesting backdrop certainly. Listen, I'll be honest with you, I
wouldn't want to. I didn't want to be on the
end of it that we were on last night, right.
I didn't want to be on the end of it
because I don't want Canada to be the fifty first state.
I want Canada to be as it always is, as
our our friend and ally to the North, who we
share this great cultural bond with. But I think, you know,
(29:58):
these are people who have their own pride in their
own heritage and I don't think we can take that
from them. But I do as a as a hockey fan,
I have long felt a kinship with Canadians and Canada
that I don't know that every American necessarily feels the
same way because mainly because I'm just exposed to it
so often through this sport, and I think that's the
(30:19):
beauty of the sport that it does bring two nations together.
I don't know that there is a bigger, more unified
USA Canada business than the NHL, because consider this, you
have seven Canadian teams who are regularly playing in US cities.
Speaker 3 (30:36):
And that's not just in the NHL.
Speaker 2 (30:38):
If you go look at the American Hockey League, which
is the step down that's the farm system of the NHL.
Speaker 3 (30:45):
If you look at if you look at the.
Speaker 2 (30:49):
Junior hockey leagues, if you look at the Ontario Hockey League,
there are teams in Erie, Pennsylvania. That's actually where Connor
McDavid played, So you can literally have watched the greatest
player on planet Earth play what a two hour drive
north of where I am right now, maybe two and
a half hour drive north of where I am right now,
in Erie, Pennsylvania.
Speaker 3 (31:10):
For a couple of years.
Speaker 2 (31:12):
He attended high school in Erie, along with a couple
of other players who are on on that team, which
is kind of wild. You could see very easily in
a different part of the country. You could see, Uh,
I don't know if it's still OHL, might be q
MJ QJ.
Speaker 3 (31:29):
I always get it wrong.
Speaker 2 (31:30):
It's the Quebec Junior Major Junior q mj HL. You
could see there's there's teams in Saginaw, there's which is
in Michigan, there's teams in Portland, there's there's a team
in Seattle. As a result of that, there are these
junior teams kind of littered throughout America who are regularly
playing in Canada and vice versa. So that's also worth
(31:52):
noting that there's there's just just hockey creates this kinship
between these two nations that I'm not even sure exists
the same way between USA and Mexico, because I don't
think that there's nothing equivalent to that, right. It's not
like I don't think there there's not an MLS team
in Mexico City.
Speaker 3 (32:09):
Is there.
Speaker 2 (32:10):
I'm not gonna claim to be a soccer expert, but
I look this up real quick before we get out
of here. I know this is great radio, and you
have to start looking up things in real time because
you don't actually know. No, but there is a team
(32:32):
in Toronto so and a team in Montreal for for
major league soccer there. I mean, hey, I'd have to
look up the other soccer other major soccer leagues to see,
like the NWSL. Maybe Michael Minnet can answer that for us. Anyway, Uh,
let's get.
Speaker 3 (32:49):
Out of here.
Speaker 2 (32:49):
I think we're I think we're I think we're done.
I think we're we're getting we're getting played out of here.
That said, everyone, have a fantastic weekend. Enjoy the return
of the NHL. Enjoy high school basket all this weekend.
Hopefully the weather continues to get better and cooperate and
we can be done with the snow.
Speaker 3 (33:07):
Once and for all. Anyway, folks, we'll see it.
Speaker 2 (33:09):
This is The Morning Spiel presented by Royal Water Treatment
one O three three w k MZ. Thanks to all
our guests this week. Catch the show and podcast form
at the Spreaker app. Email the show if you ever
want to share your opinions at The Morning Spiel at
gmail dot com The Morning Spie at gmail dot com.
Speaker 3 (33:22):
We'll see you Monday,
Ladies and gentlemen, grab your coffee and donuts, because it's
time for the Morning Spiel, brought to you by Royal Water.
The Athenians and topics discussed on the show do not
reflect that of WVRC Media or our advertisers. Now we
head straight to the one o three to three WKMZ
newsroom with your host, Alex Widerspiel.
Speaker 2 (00:22):
This is the Morning Spiel presented by Royal Water Treat
and I want to three three WKMZ. Good morning, folks,
thanks for being here with us today. Hopefully you've enjoyed
the Friday Free for All, a two hour extravaganza of
high school basketball we just discussed and we're moving on.
Speaker 3 (00:38):
So today I got a couple of things going on.
Speaker 2 (00:40):
First and foremost, I gonna say we're gonna do with
a final part of our series with doctor Sean Lawrence,
and we're gonna post the full show in full podcast form,
the full hour and twenty minute interview today, so you
can check that out and it will still be in
individual parts, so you can listen that way as well,
(01:00):
should you prefer it in more bite sized pieces, but
you'll be able to listen to it in your own
preferred way in podcast form. Second, of course, the Friday
free for all is going to be posted here as
soon as possible, so check that out later this morning
if you missed it at all. Lots of good basketball
talk thanks to our guests who are on the show today.
Heard from Craig Dutton, heard from Chris George, Travis Jones,
(01:24):
and Bill Nestor, who did double duty today because Bill
also jumped in to talk a little bit about South Harrison.
Speaker 3 (01:30):
He really did triple duty today.
Speaker 2 (01:31):
But thanks to everybody who participated in today's show. All
that being said, we were just one of the things
we actually just wrapped on over you know, over there.
It's funny for me, you know, we do these shows
back to back and so it kind of feels like
they bleed into each.
Speaker 3 (01:47):
Other a little bit.
Speaker 2 (01:47):
In most days we do, you know, more high school
basketball stuff on Fridays. Today not doing that. It's you know,
if you want to know how the sausage gets made.
Definitely a little bit a little bit tougher with everything
that's going on with the swim meet as well as
everything else. A lot of folks really tied up with
what's going on there, so a lot of the potential
(02:10):
bonus guests tied up for the conversation that I wanted
to have. That said, I also did want to get
the Sean Lawrence interview finished. When I realized we only
had about fifteen minutes to go in it, I just said,
you know what, We're just going to power through this
thing and I get it done on Friday, so the
whole thing can be done in one week and not
have to be split up over multiple weeks. Okay, but
(02:30):
all that being said, you know, it is funny. Geopolitical
tensions were certainly no no stranger to what was going
on during Nazi Germany and sports as well. And that's
not to compare America or not to compare any nation
in fact, just more of the fact that geopolitical tension
(02:51):
in sports are nothing new, and that the way Canada
winds up winning last night certainly is in line with
sort of the history of you know, when geopolitical attention,
when geopolitical geopolitical issues are occurring simultaneously to new attention
(03:12):
being granted to a sport that's maybe not as popular.
Speaker 3 (03:17):
It has happened before.
Speaker 2 (03:18):
We've seen it in multiple places throughout history, and it's
not a surprise. But I will say this so I
know there are folks who are disappointed last from last
night's outcome. I'm disappointed with last night's outcome, and that
even though I certainly disagree with the rhetoric and I'm
unhappy that Donald Trump, who did to his credit, I'm
(03:39):
glad that he called team USA. I think that that's
I mean, if you're the president of the United States
and you've got the ability to call the team representing
your nation in such a unique situation like I again,
keep in mind that there is no other USA Canada
matchup going on right now and in sports, this is
the only one, and you have the ability to make
(03:59):
that call very good.
Speaker 3 (04:00):
I don't like that he brought politics up on the call.
Speaker 2 (04:03):
I think that that's really inappropriate and not something you
should do, and you should not force players.
Speaker 3 (04:07):
To have to do that stuff, because while I will
tell you I think.
Speaker 2 (04:11):
Just from my own knowledge, I think a lot of
the hockey world it's probably it's one of the more
politically conservative.
Speaker 3 (04:20):
Basis of athlete.
Speaker 2 (04:23):
I still think most of them would prefer to be
as a political as possible, especially in that moment, especially
with their Canadian friends. They play with Canadian players. I
don't think he should have brought up politics on that call.
Even still, the history of geopolitical tensions occurring and sort
of bleeding through sport as we saw last night. In fact,
(04:44):
in a lot of ways, you know, as Team USA
was actually the favorite last night, they were a goal
and a half favorite. It almost felt in some ways
like it was Canada's turn to get sort of that
miracle on ice. In some ways, now that's little bit silly,
and it's throwing your own right, because the Canadians have
the most talented forward group in the world, right, and
(05:05):
they certainly had. Boy, you'd be hard pressed out to
say that they didn't have three of the ten best
players on the planet on the ice last night, and
two of the best five on the ice last night,
that including the very best who scored the game winning goal.
But it's a great game, just phenomenal game. And my
ultimate point is that you know, if you got into
(05:27):
it because you're thinking to yourself, well, I want to
root on Team USA, you know, you want.
Speaker 3 (05:30):
To stick it to Canada.
Speaker 2 (05:32):
And if if your motivations were primary political, here's what
I at least hope occurred. If you weren't a hockey
fan before you got to see such a high quality
of game that you're a hockey fan now. Don't let
the outcome disappoint you, because while it is disappointing, the
four Nation's face off is not the be all end all.
It is a first time tournament meant to be, meant
(05:55):
to be used like a plane lifting off.
Speaker 3 (05:58):
It is a runway to the Olympics.
Speaker 2 (06:01):
And boy, what would I wouldn't give to just be
able to fast forward to the year twenty twenty six
right now, to be able to fast forward to early
twenty twenty six. Quite literally, we're gonna be talking about
this about a year from now. They're gonna be going
into the Olympic break and we're gonna be getting a
chance to watch international best on best play involving more
than just these four nations. But we're gonna be able
to get a chance to see the Germans, who have
(06:23):
one of the players who didn't get to play last night,
and Leon Dreichsitle who plays with Connor McDavid. He didn't
get to play at all in this tournament because the
Germans didn't have enough NHL players to field a roster.
Speaker 3 (06:34):
I will tell you.
Speaker 2 (06:35):
I don't think that's gonna be I don't think that's
gonna be an issue forever. That is a Germany from
a hockey perspective, is a rising nation. They have two
of the better players in the league right now and
Leon drey Sittle and more at cider defenseman for Detroit.
So I don't think that that's gonna be that way forever.
And I think the Olympic hockey, the only difference will
(06:57):
be is that it won't be quite as physical because
it'll be i i HF, which is international rules instead
of NHL rules. Believe me when I say this, it's
it's still going to be just as fast. It's still
going to be just as fast and just as hard.
I don't know that you're gonna see the fighting though.
That's the one difference I think that was. That was
a fun bit. I don't want to call it a
(07:17):
GIMMI because that's not fair. That was a fun novelty
that could only occur because it was NHL rules and
NHL referees during that game on Saturday over the weekend.
But I wish we could just fast forward to the
Olympics because I could watch that level of hockey. I
could watch it all day and hopefully if you walked
out of that disappointed last night, but you were new
(07:37):
to the sport, you still came away thinking to yourself, Man,
wasn't that entertaining? What a fun unbelievable in three hours
that I just spent well worth it. This is me
the ambassador for the game. I'm i'm, I'm I love
I love it, and I told you folks that I
I would love to see high school hockey continue to
(07:58):
expand in West virgin And you know, there were two
players last night on the ice who are essentially Appalachian
by definition, in Vincent Trochech who's a Pittsburgh eighte and JT. Miller,
who's from East Palestine, Ohio. So by definition, those guys
who actually grew up playing together on youth teams together
(08:20):
for Team USA, those guys, those guys are Appalachians. There
can be Appalachian hockey, and in fact, there's pretty good
club hockey at West Virginia University. There's good club hockey
at Ohio University. There's some D one hockey at the
NC DOUBLEA level in in Apalachia. There's a school in
(08:41):
the Pittsburgh area. It's gonna bug me that I can't
remember which one it is. I don't think it's Ducane,
not that it matters at the moment, but there are
a couple, not many. There's only something like seventy three
D one D one n Cuba hockey teams. And I
certainly hope we're going to see more route and it's
my it's my dream to see when come to West Virginia.
(09:04):
The problem is the rink. That's gonna be the big challenge.
But uh, anyway, enough of my hockey ranting. I we
we can, we can, we can leave it there. I,
like I said.
Speaker 3 (09:15):
Geopolitical tensions.
Speaker 2 (09:16):
And you know, if if you came to the sport
because you were you were cheering on America specifically because
of the whole America Canada thing that did not exist before.
Donald Trump, during the transition period from from after the
election made the comment about the fifty first state, stay
for the hockey, Stay for the hockey because yes, now
(09:37):
the tension through sport will not be there as much.
We'll certainly see how the the actual political tension goes,
but the tension through sport isn't going to be there
for for now.
Speaker 3 (09:50):
That undertone is not if, if ever going to come back.
Speaker 2 (09:53):
This may really only be a one time thing, but
you're gonna have to go another year until that comes back.
Speaker 3 (09:58):
So stay for the hockey, stay for the puck. All right.
Speaker 2 (10:01):
That said, let's take a break, and we're gonna get
to your news and sports headlines on the other side
of this break on the radio side of things. In
podcast forms straight into your main segment, which is our
final part of our conversation with doctor Sean Lawrence. If
you're listening on the radio, that will come of course
after the news and sports headlines, and if you're a
podcast listener, all of this is gonna be very easily
explained and laid out for you in podcast form. All
(10:23):
you gotta do is just like subscribe or download at
your preferred podcasting platform, or make it even easier, go
to our home base, the Spreaker wrapp download Spreaker and
you'll be able to access it. All right, I'm Alex
weeters Peap. We got to take a break. My voice
is nearing the end of its life cycle here, which
is great because I gotta call a game tonight, so
I'm gonna get some I'm gonna get some camameal tea
(10:43):
and rest up and get myself ready for some some
basketball this evening. In the meantime, we'll talk with you
guys all here on just the other side of this
break back after this on the Morning Spiel.
Speaker 1 (10:55):
Now back to the Morning Spiel, brought to you by
Royal Water on govern uw KMZ.
Speaker 2 (11:02):
So this is the final part of our conversation with
doctor Sean Lawrence, assistant professor of history at West Virginia
University and specializing in modern German history.
Speaker 3 (11:12):
And there are a couple of things I wanted to
note here.
Speaker 2 (11:15):
We were talking about what ultimately led to the Nazis
coming to the final solution, which was to exterminate the
European Jewish population ultimately six million Jews approximately dead. Twelve
million people approximately dead just in labor camps and death
camps alone. And I always like to include that extra
six million, because I find it odd that we focused
(11:37):
so much time on six million Jews. But there were
six million polls and political prisoners, communists, people who were disabled,
and other Nazi deemed undesirables who were a part of this.
Speaker 3 (11:48):
It was not just.
Speaker 2 (11:49):
Jews, though certainly they obviously made up the largest brunt
of that of that population, Romani people were also in
there as well. Not to exclude anybody who's there. I
think I've I've listened. LGBTQ folks were in there, though
mostly it was I think it was just gay and
lesbian at the time. All that said, I wanted to
(12:10):
focus before we get to the sort of never again,
which has been the refrain that I always heard in
my entire life. But the language that was used ultimately
is where I'm most I think alarmed, because I don't
think it's not like I think we're walking down this
path now. I don't want to make that comparison because
I just think it is again historically unfair when you
(12:33):
consider what the Nazis actually did. I'm gonna quote I
don't know if this is a real this is a
real actual someone said this, but it is from the
movie Conspiracy, which is about the Vance conference and is
based on the minutes of that meeting. But at the
end of the meeting they're saying like, let's astonish Charles Darwin.
Speaker 3 (12:50):
Well, no one else has has quite attempted to do that.
Speaker 2 (12:53):
But again goes a little bit into the mindset there
where this for them. They felt like this was Darwinistic
in a sense that they were going to be doing
a service to their to the human species by undertaking
this path. And so I don't want to draw the
comparison that I think we are headed down that path.
I think it would take just a myriad number of
(13:14):
things for that to occur in the Western world, in
the United States. But there have been genocides in the
twenty first century. We know that there have been other
genocides in the twentieth century.
Speaker 3 (13:24):
Outside of the Holocaust. We know that as well.
Speaker 2 (13:27):
I am curious, though, are there warning signs that people
can can look at and go, ah, don't like that?
Is language one of those things? And outside of language,
what could other warning signs particularly look like in those moments?
So is there a common thread between the genocides that
we have seen outside of Nazi Germany and then within.
Speaker 4 (13:57):
If I could, there are two two kind of questions
I think, I think break it together there, right, because
one is the question of genocide, of course, and another
is the question of Nazism or or fascism if you like, right,
And there is always this implicit assumption, and this really
(14:18):
goes back to the very start of our conversation that
if you are talking about fascism, what you were talking
about specifically is a movement or an ideology that will
eventually lead to genocide. And as you point out, there
(14:43):
have been a number of genocides, or.
Speaker 5 (14:50):
What I can be reasonably called genocides.
Speaker 4 (14:52):
The definition depends on which definition you choose, right, how
that if you want to choose a number, but there's
certainly been a number of them, and not all of
them are.
Speaker 5 (15:05):
Carried out by a group or groups that can reasonably
be called fascists.
Speaker 4 (15:11):
Likewise, there are all kinds of groups or individuals in
the twentieth century that clearly I attempted to recreate fascism
in their own countries who did not. You know, they
may have caused all kinds of havoc, but didn't perpetrate
what can reasonably call the genocide. So, in looking for
(15:34):
warning signs, one thing that I think we could.
Speaker 5 (15:38):
All start doing.
Speaker 4 (15:41):
Is to realize that we're talking about two distinct, albeit
related things, and that just because we're looking for warning
signs of the one does not necessarily mean that we're
looking for warning signs at the other, and vice versa.
So what I mean by that is, if what you're
interested in is I'll start with fascism. If you're looking
(16:04):
to know, okay, is is this or that movement in
this or that country?
Speaker 5 (16:11):
Does that seem like a fascist movement?
Speaker 4 (16:14):
Because because of the history, because we all live in
a world where fascists existed called themselves as such, you know,
eighty one hundred years ago, very few groups are going
to use that term explicitly. And yet there are all
kinds of ways that you can still be, you know,
fascist in every way that matters. And so you know,
(16:35):
if you're looking at the nineteen twenties, you had brown
shirts in Germany, you had white brain shirts Italy.
Speaker 5 (16:42):
Basically, fascists identify themselves.
Speaker 4 (16:45):
They're a member, they're members of a group they have
It's like they want to be a part of a
part of a team.
Speaker 1 (16:50):
Right.
Speaker 4 (16:51):
It is a very explicit sort of a movement. They
have they have apparel, right, and they have flags, they
have symbols, they have all kinds of things that that
demonstrate from one another that you're a member of the
in group.
Speaker 5 (17:02):
Okay.
Speaker 4 (17:03):
Fascism is also always about and this is why it
obviously relates to genocide, even if it's not that we
shouldn't treat them as exactly the same. There's always about
you know, purifying the nation, right, It's it's about trying
to remove what is impure and to create a healthy
body politic, there's often these sort of organic metaphors, uh,
(17:28):
you know, related to evolution or Darwinism, right, though not always.
And another thing about fascism is it's obsessed with the
relationship between the state and the and and the.
Speaker 5 (17:41):
Person, right of the individual.
Speaker 4 (17:42):
So, you know, Mussolini some you might call him the
first fascist, depending on how to find it. Uh you know,
he said, you know, for us, the state is everything
and and then nothing is outside the state, right and
for and for Hitler, the state and the nation were
exactly identical, you can and separate. Though other fascist movements,
(18:04):
you know, emphasize how they are going to free the
society from from the state itself.
Speaker 5 (18:11):
Uh, you know in.
Speaker 4 (18:16):
The Balkan well you know, the in the in uh
post Soviet Balkans precent. But it's always about kicking on anger. Now,
that's where we get to genocide.
Speaker 5 (18:26):
And that this tendency that is not unique to fascism.
Speaker 4 (18:31):
But is usually a well, I guess always a part
of fascism, this tendency to define the in group, the
nation as everything that is pure and good.
Speaker 5 (18:41):
Usually it's been victimized in some way.
Speaker 4 (18:43):
In Germany loses the First War, World War Italy, you know,
treated badly, and uh it is it is about getting revenge.
It's also always about expansion. There's always an expansionist element
to this, you know, looking for a conquest. And none
(19:06):
of those things necessarily relate to genocide. But when you
start hearing groups of people and this is this is
why the term dehumanization now.
Speaker 5 (19:15):
Gets it's it's it gets tossed around a lot, but
it's important.
Speaker 4 (19:22):
When you begin removing the ability for people within a
society to defend themselves as people, either linguistically by saying like,
you know that in the case of Germany, right, like
to be a Jew all of a sudden after nineteen
thirty three meant you could not also be a German,
(19:45):
right or you know, I mean there was I suppose
there was a there's a few years of a process
whereby that became the case, But before that that was
not even remotely the case. Right, you could be German
and Jewish, you could be German and Protestant whatever, and
so all of a sudden, the people who were Jewish
in Germany were nothing but that, and suddenly you've essentialized
(20:09):
that group of people. The last piece though, between that
that the last piece of fascism, that is, you know
where you may be if you're looking for warning signs,
you maybe want to sort of look for a jumping
off point is violet. Fascist movements are always violent, and
(20:32):
by that I mean they start out often as almost
like like almost like fight clubs, like street brawling groups
usually brawl usually, you know, this was certainly the case
in Germany. Uh, gangs of of of of young men
who would go around basically to beat up commomists, right,
(20:52):
and all of a sudden that creates tension obviously very often,
and I just want to be cleric, like, there really
was a chance of a communist takeover in Germany in
the nineteen pointies. I mean they were like there were plenty,
there there was a.
Speaker 2 (21:08):
They held they held seats in the German parliament, right,
absolutely they did.
Speaker 4 (21:13):
And in fact, uh, and you know, maybe this is
more of a lesson for political elites, but not only
did they hold seats in parliament, but they were some
of the they cast were actually I should say, withheld
some of the key votes to bring down the government.
That was the last bash between a Nazi between Adolf
(21:34):
Hitler as chancellor and the continuation of the Weimar Republic,
and the communists chose to ally with the Nazis to
destroy the moderate left government.
Speaker 5 (21:47):
In order. I mean, I don't know what their plan was.
I kind of know what their plan was, but it
doesn't matter. It was a bad plan.
Speaker 4 (21:55):
But anyway, yes, they had they held seats of government
and none only that, I mean they had, you know.
Speaker 5 (21:59):
There was there.
Speaker 4 (22:00):
It was called the spartest of supprising, like there had
been actual attempts at a coup, a communist takeover in
Germany and continuous. So I just want to clarify that, Like,
it's not like fascist groups come into exist into existence
or fascist movement comes into its existence, spreads chaos and
(22:21):
then profits from it. They contribute to chaos. There's there
is need to crack down, perhaps to bring things, you know.
Speaker 5 (22:29):
On whatever the the the uh.
Speaker 4 (22:33):
State that exists has to crack down to try to
you know, preserve order in society. That crackdown then is
often used, certainly in the case of Italy certain the
case of Germany, UH it is then used as sort
of rhetorically a bludgeon against the government, saying, look, you
know you.
Speaker 5 (22:53):
Are you are.
Speaker 4 (22:55):
Infringing on uh you know, we who represent the true
the folk in the case of Germany, the true people,
the true nation. You are infringing on our ability to
prevent this communist takeover. You're helping the communists, You're part
of this conspiracy, et cetera, et cetera. But the violent
part of it is so important because it's really easy.
(23:19):
And this is where I think that we You know,
every US president in my lifetime has been compared to
Adolf Hitler, which is wild because I'm not as young
as I would like to be, and so I have
seen a number of US presidents are all very different in.
Speaker 5 (23:38):
All kinds of ways.
Speaker 1 (23:39):
And the.
Speaker 4 (23:42):
Thing that you like need to sort of have the
bat in the back of your head is, I think
the willingness of the movement, the willingness of the group
that you are concerned that may sort of be moving towards,
if not genocide. We could we can use the term
ethnic cleansing, which can mean a variety of things.
Speaker 5 (24:04):
Isn't necessarily you.
Speaker 4 (24:05):
Know, mass murder, but can mean you know, the end
of the way of life, destruction, moving people away, whatever,
the the willingness of that movement to really lean in
to the importance of violence at the lower level, the
(24:26):
middle level, and the upper level of how power is wielded.
Speaker 5 (24:31):
That I think is is perhaps the.
Speaker 4 (24:34):
Most important part of how you could And again, as
you said, history may rhyme, but it really doesn't repeat itself.
So the next the next tragedy in our world, it
may well be something that can't be predicted and can't
be helped. But for my money, you know, looking to
those to those things, you know, being a member of
(24:55):
the group wanting to uh or a movement that is
all about for acting the end group pushing out what
it ess outsider's willingness to use violence.
Speaker 5 (25:06):
Those are those are key.
Speaker 2 (25:10):
All right, very good. I think we can leave it there.
I think that's that's a good as good a place
as any to stop.
Speaker 3 (25:19):
Big, big ideas.
Speaker 2 (25:21):
All floated around and and just a ton of good information.
And folks, if you're listening to this live on the radio,
please note that all three parts of these are together
in podcast form, where you can find them at the
Spreaker app or the WKMZ news dot com website, or
your preferred podcasting platform.
Speaker 3 (25:42):
If you don't want to go to either of those, Okay,
we'll leave it there.
Speaker 1 (25:46):
Never miss an episode. Recorded versions of The Morning Spiel
are online at w kmznews dot com.
Speaker 3 (25:57):
Thanks to doctor Sean Lawrence for doing that.
Speaker 2 (26:00):
For sitting down with me for that full hour and
twenty minute interview. Knew the conversation was really good. I
was really enjoying. I was learning a lot from him,
and I just you know, I didn't want to as
long as he was willing to keep going, I didn't
want to stop it, and so, of course, for that reason,
we just kept going. And I knew, well, this is
going to be this is going to be a challenge
when it comes to dealing with this for radio purposes.
(26:20):
And I didn't even realize at first. I thought, Okay,
we'll do this. At first I thought two parts, then
I thought three parts, and then I realized we'll have
to do this in four.
Speaker 3 (26:29):
Kind of wild.
Speaker 2 (26:30):
Actually, I just didn't expect the conversation to go on
for that length of time. By the way, one clarification
from earlier in the show, because I was not comparing
the USA to Nazism. I was just saying that there's
geopolitical issues during say the Olympics in I was at
nineteen thirty was it the thirty six Olympics that were
hosted in Munich are in Germany. I'm a Berlin maybe
(26:54):
nineteen thirty six Olympics, but it's also happened, you know,
for example, the the.
Speaker 3 (27:01):
Other Olympics.
Speaker 2 (27:03):
You know, obviously kind of a big one that the
nineteen eighty Olympics in the US, it's a huge geopolitical
moment where you've got the Soviet invasion of Afghanistan going on, right, Yeah,
the nineteen thirty six Summer Olympics were held in Berlin,
but you've got the Soviet invasion of Afghanistan going on.
And then the backdrop of all of that is Team USA,
(27:26):
who was not using NHL players at this time, gets
this improbable victory over the Soviets. And if you watched
last night, you obviously saw the imagery they kept using
from the movie Miracle. They laid it on a little
bit thick because obviously, listen, that was truly and remains
you got to understand that was the greatest upset still
(27:47):
to this day.
Speaker 3 (27:48):
It's the greatest upset in sports.
Speaker 2 (27:50):
You're talking about a bunch of NC DOUBLEA players at
a time when the NC DOUBLEA was not as strong
as it is now, a bunch of NC DOUBLEA hockey
players went and upset the greatest international playing at the time,
even better than Canada, greatest international playing nation on the
(28:11):
face of the earth, with players at the top of
their game that rivaled NHL players. And that in fact,
because the Soviets played such a distinct style of hockey.
They played, as I understand it, something equivalent to like
Dutch total football. It's what they It was what the
Soviets played at the time. And because they were obviously
(28:33):
extremely insular, and you had a situation where the Soviets
were only playing with each other, it resulted in the
how well.
Speaker 3 (28:49):
Coached they were.
Speaker 2 (28:51):
They knew each other so perfectly well that when they
played the NHL All Stars that even and they did
that in I want to say nineteen seventy nine, and
they played the NHL All Stars in an exhibition match,
and even though the NHL All Stars were probably just
as talented as the Soviet national team, they couldn't hang
with those guys.
Speaker 3 (29:11):
They couldn't hang with those guys.
Speaker 2 (29:12):
So that was amidst the backdrop of everything the Soviet
invasion of Afghanistan, Jimmy Carter is threatening the possibility of
boycotting the Olympics that were set to be in the
Soviet Union later on in I believe what I say,
eighty two, but no in nineteen eighty Lake Placid. So
just geopolitical tensions, there's there's definitely no shortage of that
(29:33):
in the history of sports, and it makes for an
interesting backdrop certainly. Listen, I'll be honest with you, I
wouldn't want to. I didn't want to be on the
end of it that we were on last night, right.
I didn't want to be on the end of it
because I don't want Canada to be the fifty first state.
I want Canada to be as it always is, as
our our friend and ally to the North, who we
share this great cultural bond with. But I think, you know,
(29:58):
these are people who have their own pride in their
own heritage and I don't think we can take that
from them. But I do as a as a hockey fan,
I have long felt a kinship with Canadians and Canada
that I don't know that every American necessarily feels the
same way because mainly because I'm just exposed to it
so often through this sport, and I think that's the
(30:19):
beauty of the sport that it does bring two nations together.
I don't know that there is a bigger, more unified
USA Canada business than the NHL, because consider this, you
have seven Canadian teams who are regularly playing in US cities.
Speaker 3 (30:36):
And that's not just in the NHL.
Speaker 2 (30:38):
If you go look at the American Hockey League, which
is the step down that's the farm system of the NHL.
Speaker 3 (30:45):
If you look at if you look at the.
Speaker 2 (30:49):
Junior hockey leagues, if you look at the Ontario Hockey League,
there are teams in Erie, Pennsylvania. That's actually where Connor
McDavid played, So you can literally have watched the greatest
player on planet Earth play what a two hour drive
north of where I am right now, maybe two and
a half hour drive north of where I am right now,
in Erie, Pennsylvania.
Speaker 3 (31:10):
For a couple of years.
Speaker 2 (31:12):
He attended high school in Erie, along with a couple
of other players who are on on that team, which
is kind of wild. You could see very easily in
a different part of the country. You could see, Uh,
I don't know if it's still OHL, might be q
MJ QJ.
Speaker 3 (31:29):
I always get it wrong.
Speaker 2 (31:30):
It's the Quebec Junior Major Junior q mj HL. You
could see there's there's teams in Saginaw, there's which is
in Michigan, there's teams in Portland, there's there's a team
in Seattle. As a result of that, there are these
junior teams kind of littered throughout America who are regularly
playing in Canada and vice versa. So that's also worth
(31:52):
noting that there's there's just just hockey creates this kinship
between these two nations that I'm not even sure exists
the same way between USA and Mexico, because I don't
think that there's nothing equivalent to that, right. It's not
like I don't think there there's not an MLS team
in Mexico City.
Speaker 3 (32:09):
Is there.
Speaker 2 (32:10):
I'm not gonna claim to be a soccer expert, but
I look this up real quick before we get out
of here. I know this is great radio, and you
have to start looking up things in real time because
you don't actually know. No, but there is a team
(32:32):
in Toronto so and a team in Montreal for for
major league soccer there. I mean, hey, I'd have to
look up the other soccer other major soccer leagues to see,
like the NWSL. Maybe Michael Minnet can answer that for us. Anyway, Uh,
let's get.
Speaker 3 (32:49):
Out of here.
Speaker 2 (32:49):
I think we're I think we're I think we're done.
I think we're we're getting we're getting played out of here.
That said, everyone, have a fantastic weekend. Enjoy the return
of the NHL. Enjoy high school basket all this weekend.
Hopefully the weather continues to get better and cooperate and
we can be done with the snow.
Speaker 3 (33:07):
Once and for all. Anyway, folks, we'll see it.
Speaker 2 (33:09):
This is The Morning Spiel presented by Royal Water Treatment
one O three three w k MZ. Thanks to all
our guests this week. Catch the show and podcast form
at the Spreaker app. Email the show if you ever
want to share your opinions at The Morning Spiel at
gmail dot com The Morning Spie at gmail dot com.
Speaker 3 (33:22):
We'll see you Monday,
Popular Podcasts
24/7 News: The Latest
The latest news in 4 minutes updated every hour, every day.
Dateline NBC
Current and classic episodes, featuring compelling true-crime mysteries, powerful documentaries and in-depth investigations. Follow now to get the latest episodes of Dateline NBC completely free, or subscribe to Dateline Premium for ad-free listening and exclusive bonus content: DatelinePremium.com
The Clay Travis and Buck Sexton Show
The Clay Travis and Buck Sexton Show. Clay Travis and Buck Sexton tackle the biggest stories in news, politics and current events with intelligence and humor. From the border crisis, to the madness of cancel culture and far-left missteps, Clay and Buck guide listeners through the latest headlines and hot topics with fun and entertaining conversations and opinions.