March 19, 2025 • 31 mins
Welcome back to The Most Painful Podcast! We're continuing our Live from Invictus series, bringing you exclusive conversations straight from the 2025 Invictus Games in Vancouver, BC.
In this episode, we sit down with Senator Rebecca Patterson, a former Rear Admiral with the Canadian Armed Forces and now a Senator focusing on defence and Veteran policy. Join us as we discuss her transition from military leadership to policy making, her advocacy for Veterans, and how initiatives like the Invictus Games are making a difference.Stay tuned for more insightful conversations from Live from Invictus!
For more about the Chronic Pain Centre of Excellence visit https://www.veteranschronicpain.ca/
Facebook https://www.facebook.com/chronicpainCOE
Twitter https://twitter.com/chronicpainCOE
Instagram https://www.instagram.com/chronicpain_coe/
In this episode, we sit down with Senator Rebecca Patterson, a former Rear Admiral with the Canadian Armed Forces and now a Senator focusing on defence and Veteran policy. Join us as we discuss her transition from military leadership to policy making, her advocacy for Veterans, and how initiatives like the Invictus Games are making a difference.Stay tuned for more insightful conversations from Live from Invictus!
For more about the Chronic Pain Centre of Excellence visit https://www.veteranschronicpain.ca/
Facebook https://www.facebook.com/chronicpainCOE
Twitter https://twitter.com/chronicpainCOE
Instagram https://www.instagram.com/chronicpain_coe/
Mark as Played
Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:00):
This is SSN Story Studio Network.
Speaker 2 (00:06):
Welcome to this special series of the Most Painful Podcast,
recorded live from the twenty twenty five Victus Games at Vancouver, BC.
I'm your host Tom Hoppey. On this episode, I would
like to welcome Senator Rebecca Patterson, who was a rear
admiral of the Canadian Armed Forces and now a senator
(00:27):
focusing on defense and veteran policy. Senator Rebecca Patterson, welcome
to the show.
Speaker 1 (00:33):
Well, thank you very much for having me.
Speaker 3 (00:34):
So maybe just tell us a little bit about your
background from there.
Speaker 4 (00:37):
So, I'm a thirty four year veteran of the Canadian
Armed Forces. I joined in nineteen eighty nine as a
critical care nurse. Actually, and interestingly enough, the month I
joined was the very last month that women were not
allowed in every occupation in the military. So basically my
career was marked by access to more or less the
(00:58):
full scope of the Armed Forces. However, my primary focus
throughout my career was in healthcare. While I did healthcare
delivery multiple deployments, most of my time was spent on
sort of leadership health executive senior leadership within the health
(01:19):
domain to support the Army, Navian Air Force, but also
towards the end of my career, I ended up leaving
Health Services and leading the portfolio on addressing sexual misconduct
in the Canadian Art Forces and culture. And it was
there that, because of what I was doing and huge
shifts in basically, you know, the domestic scene, culturally, et cetera,
(01:44):
had a lot of exposure to both of the House
of Commons and the Senate, in other words, trying to
be an official and provide the voice of defense on
issues from I was also the defense champion for women,
for example, But whether I was talking about gender integration,
sexual misconduct, or culture, I spent quite a bit of
(02:06):
time in front of Parliament and anyway, so in twenty
twenty one, I'm trying to have to think my dates here.
At Christmas time, I thought, you know, what do I
do from here? And I was having a conversation for
someone I've known for a long time that we'd worked
on a number of internal portfolios on culture and sexual
misconduct and healthcare in the military, and they suggested, why
(02:30):
not apply for the Senate And I thought to myself,
oh am, I to apply for the Senate. But anyway,
I'm on a bit of reflection knowing it was pretty
difficult times in the military. Right there, I thought, how
can I continue to serve? And so I applied for
the Senate. And I always like to say I was
as likely to become an Ottawa Senator hockey player as
(02:50):
a senator in Ottawa, because statistically, by the time I
was appointed to the Senate, that had been less than
a thousand senators since eighteen sixty seven.
Speaker 1 (02:59):
So anyway, it is.
Speaker 4 (03:00):
With that platform that I am the only military veteran
in the center. Right now we do have an RCMP
veteran with a Senator Bussen, first woman Commissioner of the RCMP.
And so with that I'm nonpartisan. I don't sit in
a political caucus. I'm the deputy leader of the Canadian
(03:20):
Senators Group. But what it allows me to do is
to continue to follow my passion and my duty to
provide voice in the defense, security and intelligence domain. I
will always look at it through a women piece and
security lens, basically the impact of peace and conflict on
the most vulnerable. And then when I look at people,
(03:41):
because I don't have a constituency I'm a senator for Ontario,
is I look at what I know best it's members
of the Canadian our forces who have no voice and
decisions are made that can end their lives at the
federal level, So providing voice and perspective, we are nothing
without our family, and so making sure that military families
(04:03):
are considered part of the defense and security complex, but
also veterans, having the right environment for veterans, not just
respect and commemoration, which are absolutely critical, but also that
they have the services and support they need, because at
the end of the day, as in Victus tells us,
you are different. There is nothing like this in Canada.
(04:26):
It's not an eliti's view. There is nobody else in
Canada who does what the Canadian Armed Forces do and
let me pull that thread, or the Royal Canadian Mounted Police.
So veterans who serve federally for this country. Yeah, so
I focus my passions, not even passions, I consider it
duty down those paths and that brought me here today.
Speaker 2 (04:47):
I think, yeah, well, and I hear all that, and
I think a lot of people who are listening who
are non military may not understand that the unlimited liability
is really for the military with no choice or refusal.
And as like you say, with veterans, that continues. I mean,
unlike public service or even policing, where their benefits are
(05:09):
enshrined in law, ours are not can change at the
will of Parliament at any time. So it's interesting to
hear that you know that choice, that ability a choice
carries on past.
Speaker 4 (05:22):
There too, And if I can pick up on that thread,
I think a lot of it is understanding. So Canada
is a very humble nation and we kind of think
about our military when we need it in times of crisis,
and whether it be you know, I'm going to go
way back to before nineteen hundred. Oh, we're going to
(05:42):
join Britain in South Africa, We're going to go the
First World War, et cetera, et cetera, and Canadians stepped up,
even though we know there was conscription at one point.
But then when we went down with them, we kind
of rub our hands together and we go back to
being Canadian. Maybe part of that is because you've never
had the gross misfortune of having our country destroyed by war.
(06:05):
And yes, I know we certainly won one war that
we were in against our neighbors to the south, but
that's a long time ago. But I think the challenge
that creates for veterans, and I cannot not think of
our CMP. I just want you to know that. But
we do things that nobody else does. And when you
talk about unlimited liability, as you have pointed out, it
applies to the Canadian Armed Forces only. And what it
(06:29):
means is that when a Canadian signs on the dotted
line and chooses to serve that they are willing to
offer up to and including their life, so health and safety.
Any legislation that does not apply in the Canadian Armed Forces,
especially in a combat scenario which you can imagine. I mean,
it doesn't mean that we can't follow standards for you
(06:50):
know stuff, and there are consequences if there's gross next
they're not insurable, but they're not They're not ensurable. So
that the federal government, in order to ask us to
do what no other Canadian has ever asked to do,
need to make sure that as veterans, that we are
there for them. And I think the second thing is
is it's it's more than life behind a desk. You know,
(07:13):
I sit and I look over your shoulder and I
can see the Max burneis, which is one of our
Arctic off Shore patrol vessels. You are gone forever from
your family. Climbing ladders. Oh gosh, that sounds hard. Oh no,
it is hard, heavy seas, knees and bags and this
is just wear and tear occupational health and safety. Oh
and I told you we're not covered by anything. So
(07:34):
the government needs to be ready when there are injuries,
both in service and after retirement, that there is an
acceptable support and benefits in order to support people who
have chosen.
Speaker 1 (07:46):
To step forward.
Speaker 4 (07:47):
And yeah, so I like to try and make that connection.
It's very easy federally when you live in a community
that doesn't see militaries, which is most of Canada.
Speaker 1 (07:57):
Yes, that you understand that.
Speaker 4 (08:00):
And we say noe of funding on this, Oh you
know the wasteful spending which is really operation and maintenance.
That's actually about people programs, that's about training budgets, it's
about equipment that fits properly. And you and I both
know poorly trained, poorly equipped people are more likely to
be hurt or killed in our situation.
Speaker 1 (08:19):
So there you go.
Speaker 4 (08:20):
So I try to create the story, the picture, get
profile to that.
Speaker 3 (08:24):
Yeah, I can't agree with you more.
Speaker 2 (08:25):
I have this discussion for many years, many different people,
because in Canada, they're not aware of it. I mean
when I tell people I went overseas in Sarajeova ninety
four when the war was full on without a helmet
and flockfest, they don't believe me. I said, it's true,
it's true, and I mean that's the most basic and
there have been improvements. And like you said, defense is important,
(08:47):
and now with what's going on in the world and
you look at the Arctic and everything we have, I mean,
that's important. But that ties into benefits with veterans. It
ties into the ability to look after chronic pain and
their families as well as we know the research that
we're doing out of University of Calgary is that veterans
who struggle with chronic pain, their children.
Speaker 3 (09:07):
Struggle with chronic pain. That's afterwards, right.
Speaker 2 (09:09):
So I agree with what you're saying. It's not just
about defense and equipment. It's about looking up people after right.
Speaker 4 (09:17):
And it can be very hard because the government and
I'm not government, I'm a senator, but the government does
have to make hard fiscal decisions. There is a cost
to that hard decision. You may make fiscally, but what
you can't do is continue with the same tempo and
mandate and difficulty that you did when you had the money,
(09:38):
you had the programs, and well maybe some of your
listeners thinking, well, there's nothing to a forest fire. Well,
you know, we just passed legislation so that we recognize
that firefighters are going to get certain types of cancers
and that we're, you know, under legislation, be able to
cover them.
Speaker 1 (09:54):
But yet we.
Speaker 4 (09:55):
Still send reservists, well meeting people go out there to
fight fires and how we're going to protect them at
the end, because is that a service related injury? So
there you go, Please do some research on that. It'll
be wonderful.
Speaker 3 (10:08):
Well, and this is exactly it is.
Speaker 2 (10:10):
Because the domestic we talk about defense, and you say,
you know, people do not see the military until it's
a domestic or a natural disaster, and they need to
go out and look at that.
Speaker 4 (10:21):
And maybe I'm thankful for that that we've never had
to fight on our own ground.
Speaker 1 (10:25):
Yes, I hope it stays that way.
Speaker 3 (10:28):
I hope so too. Yes, hope so too. But I
mean we do have the artic that's opening.
Speaker 1 (10:31):
Absolutely do.
Speaker 2 (10:32):
So let's we know defense is important and educating Canadians
is important of what why we need defense? We talked
a little bit about veterans, So let's talk about maybe
some of the work that you're doing to help with
the benefits for veterans. I mean, we know that our
legislation has changed over the years, programs have changed. What's
(10:54):
happening now that you're working on that that can help
with veterans.
Speaker 4 (10:58):
So I'm the chair, well I was the chair until
prorogation of the Veterans Subcommittee within the Senate, and I'm
going to give you a snapshot and then then I'll
kind of talk more globally because we have different efforts
that we put forward. And what we were looking at
is a follow up on veterans homelessness and well, I
know there's many terms for it. When this first came
(11:21):
to the forefront a number of years ago, there was
money put towards it. But the question is what happened
to that money and is it actually making a difference.
And so that is one of the studies that we'll
have to make sure that we bring that report back
on the table so it can be published after we
moved back into whatever happens in the future politically. But
(11:43):
the focus is on what we understand some of the
causative factors, sorry, co related factors behind housing insecurity of
all types. But then the next thing is how are
we doing our investing correctly. I think one thing that
we sometimes are very challenged with is with a federation
(12:06):
where you have federal and provincial jurisdictions of course, and
territorial jurisdictions. Veterans belong to the province or territory in
which they live, and Veterans Affairs has elements that are
insurance company like, but also you know, programs that they
helped to catch is catch cancer, grants and bursaries. So
as we're having a look, the one thing I can
(12:27):
tell you that I don't think will come as a
surprise to anybody listening to this is there needs to
be regionally specific responses to this because this vast immense country.
I'm sorry, I've been to Goose Bay and now I'm
in Vancouver. Tell me how they connect apart from that
male lief, you know, So trying to come up with
the regional solutions that are done in partnership with people
(12:51):
who are living in housing insecurity in those errors is
very helpful, but it also falls into large basis for
let me use Gaugetown. There's some great work being done there,
a very different approach to Toronto, but trying to look
at should we also be investing in addictions and treatments
and what would that look like for people or veterans
(13:15):
in Gaugetown. So what we're trying to have a look
at in this report is what can we do how
can we better maybe not end up housing insecure in
the first place, but also if they do, how can
we better capture them? So I want to make sure
that you know that there are some really good things
going on, but I think fundamentally a homeless veteran has
(13:38):
some very unique characteristics, and pride is one of them.
How can I fail? I mean, we're taught and trained
as elite athletes and teammates and team members. I've let
you down, I've let me down. So the hard to find.
I can tell you that, So please everybody keep an
eye out. But the second thing is is when we
(13:59):
finally find them and try to help work with them
with them, not do it to them, work with them
to address their issues. We also have to be able
to access treatment that understands the military background. So whether
it be addictions because of PTSD for example, we know
(14:20):
that serving members and veterans find it very difficult to
join any kind of group where nobody knows what they're
talking about, right, So anyway, so things like that are
certainly a passion for me because that is about, you know,
looking after people. What is missing in there is how
(14:41):
do we manage families of veterans.
Speaker 2 (14:44):
Well, And that's I mean, we can talk about legislation
and change that happened in two thousand and six and
prior to that and what happened, but yeah, I'm going
to try to keep it positive it here, but I
think it's important for me if you like, well, I
think so, because I mean I was just going to
finish by saying it. It's important for people to understand
(15:05):
because there's a lot of misinformation out there about what's happened,
what's happening in the future. So it's great to hear
from people who are actually, like yourself, involved in it
so we can get the story straight, so veterans know
when public know what's going on. But you were going
to talk about.
Speaker 4 (15:20):
Great, So it was actually a study done by the
Veterans Committee in the House of Commons, and in fact
Funnily enough, I just bumped into the chair visiting the booth.
And one of the things that I went in as
a witness, what a unique position to be in. I
went in as a witness. And then what we looked
at is, you know that two thousand and six line,
(15:41):
so you have two different packages. You have the first
package for veterans and the Veterans Charter and stuff like that.
That really was post World War two, and it was
an absolute genius plan to resettle a mass immobilization of
Canadians with a big missing chunk of those who were
not coming back, to try and prevent another massive depression,
(16:02):
recession to depression right World War yes, so trying not
to repeat that again. So of course there were many
elements little tinkering, tinkering, tinkering, and two thousand and six
came along, and I mean, I think most people can
say it makes sense, Okay, you got to do something,
But I think we also need to be very realistic
that at that time, in that decade when that happened,
(16:25):
we had been through some horrendous post Cold War battles.
So you had veterans who could be injured a day
apart and one would have the more what was felt
to be a robust benefits and pension package versus the
two thousand and six So one of the things that
I talked about was how do you harmonize the two.
(16:46):
It is not a hard line because two thousand and
six and our primary effort was Afghanistan where we were
taking casualties physical and mental health like rain, and so
the effort to take time to harmonize to see the difference.
So instead of fixing a hard line in the sand,
(17:06):
make it as an era thing to the end of.
Speaker 1 (17:09):
The Afghan conflict.
Speaker 4 (17:10):
I'm not saying that's what they'll do, but go back
and review how you can make a bit more of
a blurry line so people don't feel so the moral
injury being abandoned because buddy was injured one day and
then the next guy was on the wrong side the rail.
So that's one thing we looked at. The other thing
is there's some very antiquated and patriarchal clauses, which I'm
pleased to say there has been effort on things like
(17:32):
the gold digger's clause.
Speaker 1 (17:33):
It's not the real name for it.
Speaker 4 (17:34):
You know, if you haven't got someone after sixty then
they can't have any of your money.
Speaker 1 (17:39):
Oh my goodness, how don't you tell.
Speaker 4 (17:41):
Me I can be in a relationship with There has
been an amendment, though the Act itself hasn't been changed,
so you are seeing things slowly but surely. But what
is different now than it's ever been before is that
as you have veterans testifying, and you know, for your
listeners I experience. I've been on both sides of the fence,
right just on the peeking through the rails, and now
(18:04):
I'm on other side of the fence. It is very
hard to find a person who doesn't care about our
military are about veterans, like politicians, really well meaning people.
But it's very easy if you don't know about it
to move on to the next thing. That is not
a criticism, it's a fact in all humans. So to
have veterans out there, as we always say, and we've
(18:25):
been pushing this when I was on the other side
of the fence, nothing about us without us when it
comes to the human factors of serving and veterans. To
actually have veterans called to actually talk about it. That
when the committee members make these recommendations and then hold
the minister accountable for actually implementing those recommendations and if not,
(18:46):
why not. So the accountability, the visibility and the voices
of veterans is there and that makes me pretty proud.
Speaker 3 (18:52):
Yeah, and that's really good.
Speaker 2 (18:53):
And I know the two thousand states in because I
was at the table when we were going through that,
so I understand the challenges and to try to blur
that line, I think it's more than the blurring line.
I think we need to go back to you know,
that's a whole different podcast in itself. But the reason
that happened was more than just from the government side.
It was also from the veterans community side too that
(19:14):
that happened. But anyways, it's we have it now, we
need to work with what we got. But I mean,
you know that that brought up the age sixty five
issue too, the reduction at age sixty five. And when
I was talking, I'll say it, but you know, when
we were talking to the DM and the ADM at
the time, the deal was at age sixty five, that's
(19:35):
supposed to be a bridge benefit. It didn't occur, right,
So now what happened after that discussion? Who knows and
what happened, But now we have an issue where there
is a reduction at age sixty five for people in
i RB right, and that impacts when we look at
some of the studies on elder you know, aging veterans,
(19:57):
and that too. It impacts quality of life at that age.
Very important to have that for the benefits and for
health care and and everything else. But I'm glad you're
working on that stuff.
Speaker 4 (20:07):
Yes, and and that the age sixty five one is
interesting because you know things have gone up to sixty
seven and other places. So the question is is how
the money and where it comes from? And of course
that is not Maria of expertise, but I do know
it comes up again and again, and well they do bridging.
What is meant to happen is then it's really who's paying.
(20:30):
So it should not really drop, but we know in
effect it does because then you have pension components that
come in how the calculations are done. So I'm hoping
that as we move forward, especially as the world gets
more and more unsafe, we grow the size of our
Canadian armed forces. It is actually about retention, you know
(20:52):
what I how I'm treated when I will watch and
I will I will decide. So my hope is moving forward,
and I will keep an eye on it that this
does come up. But we know that there's the truth
and there's what appears to be true, and they have
to match. And I think one of the challenges, especially
in our most harmed veterans, and I don't care if
(21:14):
you're RCMP or Canadian Armedforces, is that you feel betrayed
by a system. And that is really tough. So you
are also dealing with the psychological impact. And it's not
every veteran, we know that, but you feel very betrayed
by the system and there is no making it right,
if that makes sense. But how can we not contributed
(21:35):
to a moral injury they may have received while in
service by how we treat them afterwards, And so certainly
moving forward, it'll be something to watch well.
Speaker 2 (21:43):
And that's just say it is. It's about understanding what
the truth is. And I think, you know, veterans are
looking to help from my experience and what I feel
from what I've seen, they're looking to help. They're getting engaged.
They're upset about being harmed by a system. So sometimes
the information that's out there is not correct, absolutely and Facebook,
(22:05):
and that makes it worse, you know, and that can
then lead to other things that are not helpful. And
sometimes it's just kind of stop in the train and say, okay,
you know, have you realize that this is the actual fact,
this is actually what's happening, And people, in my experience,
a lot of people go, oh, I didn't realize that.
I didn't realize that that was offered by Veterans Affairs,
(22:26):
or I didn't realize that that was because everything just
gets you know, people are hurting there and they're trying
to find a way, and unlike, we don't have a
union that's fighting for us. So that's why we have
to go and do it.
Speaker 3 (22:39):
All the time. We do, you know, so it makes
it harder, I think.
Speaker 1 (22:43):
Very much so.
Speaker 4 (22:44):
And Veterans Affairs has worked really hard to try and
make systems easier. But it shouldn't be a herculean effort,
especially when you're injured, no matter how, because it's where
you get away with just one thing when you're injured
to have to try and figure out the system. So
(23:04):
improving navigation I even use this with people or housing insecure.
Speaker 1 (23:08):
These are some of the things that we heard.
Speaker 4 (23:10):
And again I'm not talking out of turn because we
haven't published the report yet, but you know, how can
it be a bit easier. We're not talking about less
you know, check and balances to make sure it really
is linked to service that's happening. But how can we
make sure that a veter knows how and how can
we reach out and pull them in rather than waiting
(23:30):
for them to push you know, how can we do that,
especially as we figure out who the most vulnerable are.
And it doesn't mean that you're going to be housing insecure,
it's not that, but remember that's the end state that
in suicide or in states, if people have completely fallen through.
So what better can we do as they transition out
of the military. And we also heard the rcmpiece the
(23:52):
same way transition out so that we can start tagging
those at greater risk for certain things. And while in
the military, from a case management perspective, you are designated
level one, two, three, and threes.
Speaker 1 (24:07):
We know we need to give them.
Speaker 4 (24:08):
Lots of support, lots of advice and guidance. But the
problem is the Canadian Armedforces can only go while they're serving.
But that's that's that's the law. But what it needs
to be able to do is transition over to back.
Speaker 1 (24:21):
Now back. Here's this.
Speaker 4 (24:24):
So the next step is now what and have a
little bit of data. A little bit of data be good.
Speaker 2 (24:31):
I believe evidence space. This is why we're doing this podcast.
This is why we're you know, we did the Alpine Challenge,
which is a pain program for veterans. It's all heavidy
space because and it's not to say anything bad is
out there, but it's just to bring things back to
fact and to say what really is is going to
is going to help. And that's part of that transition
piece too. We look at the military mindset, you know,
(24:52):
and I say to the veterans who struggle, is you
have to remember.
Speaker 3 (24:56):
Is you have changed entering the service. This filling world
hasn't changed. You've changed.
Speaker 1 (25:01):
That's it.
Speaker 2 (25:02):
So now when we leave, what are the strength and
differences that you can apply?
Speaker 3 (25:07):
Now? What are your strengths and a lot of it.
Speaker 2 (25:09):
We just talked about this with Hellen too, because it's
interesting because the UK are having the same thing in
other countries.
Speaker 3 (25:17):
It's so normal.
Speaker 2 (25:18):
As you know, you served, it becomes so normal for
us these behaviors that when we're not you not showing
up on time or something, we have this physical reaction
but we don't understand what it is absolutely, So my
point is if we're not if we don't know what
we know and we're not aware, that makes our transition hard.
So we need to start being aware. And that's I
think where the evidence space comes in. These are the
(25:39):
changes one may go through, and this is what one
can do to draw on the strength and differences asking forward.
Speaker 1 (25:47):
I really think that's a critical point.
Speaker 4 (25:49):
And the other piece is it's a different world out
there out there. See where I said that, and you
know I meant it and you felt what I said
that maybe some of your listeners understand as well. And
I can put all the bits and pieces in place
benefits sign this form go here, which is a really
good start because that hasn't been around forever. But what
(26:10):
about for those who really need it? What about a
mentorship program? How do my skills as an infanteer translate
into the real world? You know, because employment is important,
especially if you don't have a big pension. When you're
going out, you need other work. And if you are
left like you've dropped me on the face of the moon,
(26:30):
and I have to figure out how But and this
isn't the first time I've heard it, but we probably
need career mentors. We do have senior leadership. We do
it in business. You know how to mentor the best
CEO or whatever it is. But wouldn't that be a
unique for those who really are identified at risk? Because
put it this way, we know the money is there
for retraining, but great, oh gosh, here's this amount of money,
(26:54):
but what do I do with it? I have just
been institutionalized for so much in my life where it's
a rigid, power based, hierarchical structure.
Speaker 1 (27:01):
And I'm not even.
Speaker 4 (27:02):
Saying that's abusive. It's a fact I do what I
was told. And then you go out there and you're like,
and you got no choice, got no choice? Or it's
kind of wobbly. You're like punching a cloud.
Speaker 1 (27:15):
And you know what me?
Speaker 4 (27:16):
As I retired as a rear admiral and I became
as editor, could you get more privilege? But at times
I felt like I felt lost? You know, I promise
you I was continuing to function. But if I who
had every deck lined up, not deliberately, that was by happenstance,
trust me. But if that happens, can you imagine somebody
(27:36):
who joined at eighteen, went overseas maybe domestic operations as
an infanteer, my son as a reserve intera. That's why
I keep picking on them, very proud of them, and
then all of a sudden we're like, here's this money,
go out and do whatever I think there are with data.
There are things that we can do to improve. Not
(28:00):
everybody needs it, but I'd say a chunk, especially the injured,
the really injured many who were at these games here
could have benefited dramatically from something like that.
Speaker 3 (28:09):
Yeah, I agree with you.
Speaker 2 (28:10):
It's just that whole mindset and transition piece that's important
because we're the ones that.
Speaker 3 (28:15):
Have changed, right.
Speaker 2 (28:16):
So yes, absolutely, I could sit here and talk for hours,
but I know you have a busy schedule, so I
appreciate all that.
Speaker 4 (28:23):
Would I be to make one comment on families that's
been terribly important to me. Sorry, we just have a
little bit of racket in the background. So you know,
we talk about how do families fit in? And you
probably remember in your career they hated being treated like
what was it, DF and E dependence furniture and effects,
so basically being treated like the furniture. Well, you know
(28:44):
they're on their own like they are Canadian citizens, the
responsibility of the province. So what we did is we
went pendulum in the drywall, way way, way too far,
and then we started to lose sight of what families
actually mean to defense and security member veterans as well.
So just put it than the spectrum. So if you
actually understand how women, peace and security works. If I
(29:05):
was to kind of I wish I could remember who
said this, but they always talk about the hand that
rocks the credal rules the world. And when you look
at families, if a person wishes to serve, the family
will be a huge deciding factor. And if we want
to create a strong defense force, we have to be
(29:25):
there for families because when a service member goes home,
recognizing we all follow the rules, who do they go to,
who do they listen to? Usually a partner, an intimate partner,
very dear friend. And they do things in the best
interests of their children. So if you were to ask
me an Iami was military. I was a military spouse,
(29:48):
I was a mother, now I'm a regimental mom. You know,
I've had all these roles. But if you were to
ask me, is that families are a critical point for
defense and security in Canada, and we can't treat them
like df andy anymore, foist them onto the provinces. We
(30:09):
need to consider them and figure out mechanisms at the
federal level to fund daycare, to try and help with employment.
Speaker 2 (30:17):
Yeah, you're right, because they pick up and move and
now absolutely what are we going to do for work?
Speaker 3 (30:24):
Absolutely, so maybe we shoulot another podcast on that one.
Speaker 4 (30:26):
Sorry, I should stop now, my apologies for going. Only
wanted to give a shout out to our families.
Speaker 2 (30:31):
No, but I'd be open to do another talk on
that one because I think the families are so important
and we were doing research with chronic pain and veterans
in their kids, and I think, yeah, I'd love to
if the time permits to have you back.
Speaker 1 (30:42):
Well you know where I work.
Speaker 3 (30:45):
Thank you well, Thank you so much Rebecca for being
on the show.
Speaker 5 (30:48):
Really appreciate it.
Speaker 3 (30:59):
For feed back about the show.
Speaker 2 (31:00):
More information on chronic pain, you can visit our website
Veterans Chronicpain dot Ca. And if you want more information
on Invictus, you can go to their website Invictusgamesfoundation dot org.
Remember to like, follow, subscribe, and share this podcast. Thanks
for listening to a special Invictus Live series as part
of the Most Painful Podcast. I'm Your host Tom Hoppy.
(31:23):
Stay safe and keep the hope alive.
This is SSN Story Studio Network.
Speaker 2 (00:06):
Welcome to this special series of the Most Painful Podcast,
recorded live from the twenty twenty five Victus Games at Vancouver, BC.
I'm your host Tom Hoppey. On this episode, I would
like to welcome Senator Rebecca Patterson, who was a rear
admiral of the Canadian Armed Forces and now a senator
(00:27):
focusing on defense and veteran policy. Senator Rebecca Patterson, welcome
to the show.
Speaker 1 (00:33):
Well, thank you very much for having me.
Speaker 3 (00:34):
So maybe just tell us a little bit about your
background from there.
Speaker 4 (00:37):
So, I'm a thirty four year veteran of the Canadian
Armed Forces. I joined in nineteen eighty nine as a
critical care nurse. Actually, and interestingly enough, the month I
joined was the very last month that women were not
allowed in every occupation in the military. So basically my
career was marked by access to more or less the
(00:58):
full scope of the Armed Forces. However, my primary focus
throughout my career was in healthcare. While I did healthcare
delivery multiple deployments, most of my time was spent on
sort of leadership health executive senior leadership within the health
(01:19):
domain to support the Army, Navian Air Force, but also
towards the end of my career, I ended up leaving
Health Services and leading the portfolio on addressing sexual misconduct
in the Canadian Art Forces and culture. And it was
there that, because of what I was doing and huge
shifts in basically, you know, the domestic scene, culturally, et cetera,
(01:44):
had a lot of exposure to both of the House
of Commons and the Senate, in other words, trying to
be an official and provide the voice of defense on
issues from I was also the defense champion for women,
for example, But whether I was talking about gender integration,
sexual misconduct, or culture, I spent quite a bit of
(02:06):
time in front of Parliament and anyway, so in twenty
twenty one, I'm trying to have to think my dates here.
At Christmas time, I thought, you know, what do I
do from here? And I was having a conversation for
someone I've known for a long time that we'd worked
on a number of internal portfolios on culture and sexual
misconduct and healthcare in the military, and they suggested, why
(02:30):
not apply for the Senate And I thought to myself,
oh am, I to apply for the Senate. But anyway,
I'm on a bit of reflection knowing it was pretty
difficult times in the military. Right there, I thought, how
can I continue to serve? And so I applied for
the Senate. And I always like to say I was
as likely to become an Ottawa Senator hockey player as
(02:50):
a senator in Ottawa, because statistically, by the time I
was appointed to the Senate, that had been less than
a thousand senators since eighteen sixty seven.
Speaker 1 (02:59):
So anyway, it is.
Speaker 4 (03:00):
With that platform that I am the only military veteran
in the center. Right now we do have an RCMP
veteran with a Senator Bussen, first woman Commissioner of the RCMP.
And so with that I'm nonpartisan. I don't sit in
a political caucus. I'm the deputy leader of the Canadian
(03:20):
Senators Group. But what it allows me to do is
to continue to follow my passion and my duty to
provide voice in the defense, security and intelligence domain. I
will always look at it through a women piece and
security lens, basically the impact of peace and conflict on
the most vulnerable. And then when I look at people,
(03:41):
because I don't have a constituency I'm a senator for Ontario,
is I look at what I know best it's members
of the Canadian our forces who have no voice and
decisions are made that can end their lives at the
federal level, So providing voice and perspective, we are nothing
without our family, and so making sure that military families
(04:03):
are considered part of the defense and security complex, but
also veterans, having the right environment for veterans, not just
respect and commemoration, which are absolutely critical, but also that
they have the services and support they need, because at
the end of the day, as in Victus tells us,
you are different. There is nothing like this in Canada.
(04:26):
It's not an eliti's view. There is nobody else in
Canada who does what the Canadian Armed Forces do and
let me pull that thread, or the Royal Canadian Mounted Police.
So veterans who serve federally for this country. Yeah, so
I focus my passions, not even passions, I consider it
duty down those paths and that brought me here today.
Speaker 2 (04:47):
I think, yeah, well, and I hear all that, and
I think a lot of people who are listening who
are non military may not understand that the unlimited liability
is really for the military with no choice or refusal.
And as like you say, with veterans, that continues. I mean,
unlike public service or even policing, where their benefits are
(05:09):
enshrined in law, ours are not can change at the
will of Parliament at any time. So it's interesting to
hear that you know that choice, that ability a choice
carries on past.
Speaker 4 (05:22):
There too, And if I can pick up on that thread,
I think a lot of it is understanding. So Canada
is a very humble nation and we kind of think
about our military when we need it in times of crisis,
and whether it be you know, I'm going to go
way back to before nineteen hundred. Oh, we're going to
(05:42):
join Britain in South Africa, We're going to go the
First World War, et cetera, et cetera, and Canadians stepped up,
even though we know there was conscription at one point.
But then when we went down with them, we kind
of rub our hands together and we go back to
being Canadian. Maybe part of that is because you've never
had the gross misfortune of having our country destroyed by war.
(06:05):
And yes, I know we certainly won one war that
we were in against our neighbors to the south, but
that's a long time ago. But I think the challenge
that creates for veterans, and I cannot not think of
our CMP. I just want you to know that. But
we do things that nobody else does. And when you
talk about unlimited liability, as you have pointed out, it
applies to the Canadian Armed Forces only. And what it
(06:29):
means is that when a Canadian signs on the dotted
line and chooses to serve that they are willing to
offer up to and including their life, so health and safety.
Any legislation that does not apply in the Canadian Armed Forces,
especially in a combat scenario which you can imagine. I mean,
it doesn't mean that we can't follow standards for you
(06:50):
know stuff, and there are consequences if there's gross next
they're not insurable, but they're not They're not ensurable. So
that the federal government, in order to ask us to
do what no other Canadian has ever asked to do,
need to make sure that as veterans, that we are
there for them. And I think the second thing is
is it's it's more than life behind a desk. You know,
(07:13):
I sit and I look over your shoulder and I
can see the Max burneis, which is one of our
Arctic off Shore patrol vessels. You are gone forever from
your family. Climbing ladders. Oh gosh, that sounds hard. Oh no,
it is hard, heavy seas, knees and bags and this
is just wear and tear occupational health and safety. Oh
and I told you we're not covered by anything. So
(07:34):
the government needs to be ready when there are injuries,
both in service and after retirement, that there is an
acceptable support and benefits in order to support people who
have chosen.
Speaker 1 (07:46):
To step forward.
Speaker 4 (07:47):
And yeah, so I like to try and make that connection.
It's very easy federally when you live in a community
that doesn't see militaries, which is most of Canada.
Speaker 1 (07:57):
Yes, that you understand that.
Speaker 4 (08:00):
And we say noe of funding on this, Oh you
know the wasteful spending which is really operation and maintenance.
That's actually about people programs, that's about training budgets, it's
about equipment that fits properly. And you and I both
know poorly trained, poorly equipped people are more likely to
be hurt or killed in our situation.
Speaker 1 (08:19):
So there you go.
Speaker 4 (08:20):
So I try to create the story, the picture, get
profile to that.
Speaker 3 (08:24):
Yeah, I can't agree with you more.
Speaker 2 (08:25):
I have this discussion for many years, many different people,
because in Canada, they're not aware of it. I mean
when I tell people I went overseas in Sarajeova ninety
four when the war was full on without a helmet
and flockfest, they don't believe me. I said, it's true,
it's true, and I mean that's the most basic and
there have been improvements. And like you said, defense is important,
(08:47):
and now with what's going on in the world and
you look at the Arctic and everything we have, I mean,
that's important. But that ties into benefits with veterans. It
ties into the ability to look after chronic pain and
their families as well as we know the research that
we're doing out of University of Calgary is that veterans
who struggle with chronic pain, their children.
Speaker 3 (09:07):
Struggle with chronic pain. That's afterwards, right.
Speaker 2 (09:09):
So I agree with what you're saying. It's not just
about defense and equipment. It's about looking up people after right.
Speaker 4 (09:17):
And it can be very hard because the government and
I'm not government, I'm a senator, but the government does
have to make hard fiscal decisions. There is a cost
to that hard decision. You may make fiscally, but what
you can't do is continue with the same tempo and
mandate and difficulty that you did when you had the money,
(09:38):
you had the programs, and well maybe some of your
listeners thinking, well, there's nothing to a forest fire. Well,
you know, we just passed legislation so that we recognize
that firefighters are going to get certain types of cancers
and that we're, you know, under legislation, be able to
cover them.
Speaker 1 (09:54):
But yet we.
Speaker 4 (09:55):
Still send reservists, well meeting people go out there to
fight fires and how we're going to protect them at
the end, because is that a service related injury? So
there you go, Please do some research on that. It'll
be wonderful.
Speaker 3 (10:08):
Well, and this is exactly it is.
Speaker 2 (10:10):
Because the domestic we talk about defense, and you say,
you know, people do not see the military until it's
a domestic or a natural disaster, and they need to
go out and look at that.
Speaker 4 (10:21):
And maybe I'm thankful for that that we've never had
to fight on our own ground.
Speaker 1 (10:25):
Yes, I hope it stays that way.
Speaker 3 (10:28):
I hope so too. Yes, hope so too. But I
mean we do have the artic that's opening.
Speaker 1 (10:31):
Absolutely do.
Speaker 2 (10:32):
So let's we know defense is important and educating Canadians
is important of what why we need defense? We talked
a little bit about veterans, So let's talk about maybe
some of the work that you're doing to help with
the benefits for veterans. I mean, we know that our
legislation has changed over the years, programs have changed. What's
(10:54):
happening now that you're working on that that can help
with veterans.
Speaker 4 (10:58):
So I'm the chair, well I was the chair until
prorogation of the Veterans Subcommittee within the Senate, and I'm
going to give you a snapshot and then then I'll
kind of talk more globally because we have different efforts
that we put forward. And what we were looking at
is a follow up on veterans homelessness and well, I
know there's many terms for it. When this first came
(11:21):
to the forefront a number of years ago, there was
money put towards it. But the question is what happened
to that money and is it actually making a difference.
And so that is one of the studies that we'll
have to make sure that we bring that report back
on the table so it can be published after we
moved back into whatever happens in the future politically. But
(11:43):
the focus is on what we understand some of the
causative factors, sorry, co related factors behind housing insecurity of
all types. But then the next thing is how are
we doing our investing correctly. I think one thing that
we sometimes are very challenged with is with a federation
(12:06):
where you have federal and provincial jurisdictions of course, and
territorial jurisdictions. Veterans belong to the province or territory in
which they live, and Veterans Affairs has elements that are
insurance company like, but also you know, programs that they
helped to catch is catch cancer, grants and bursaries. So
as we're having a look, the one thing I can
(12:27):
tell you that I don't think will come as a
surprise to anybody listening to this is there needs to
be regionally specific responses to this because this vast immense country.
I'm sorry, I've been to Goose Bay and now I'm
in Vancouver. Tell me how they connect apart from that
male lief, you know, So trying to come up with
the regional solutions that are done in partnership with people
(12:51):
who are living in housing insecurity in those errors is
very helpful, but it also falls into large basis for
let me use Gaugetown. There's some great work being done there,
a very different approach to Toronto, but trying to look
at should we also be investing in addictions and treatments
and what would that look like for people or veterans
(13:15):
in Gaugetown. So what we're trying to have a look
at in this report is what can we do how
can we better maybe not end up housing insecure in
the first place, but also if they do, how can
we better capture them? So I want to make sure
that you know that there are some really good things
going on, but I think fundamentally a homeless veteran has
(13:38):
some very unique characteristics, and pride is one of them.
How can I fail? I mean, we're taught and trained
as elite athletes and teammates and team members. I've let
you down, I've let me down. So the hard to find.
I can tell you that, So please everybody keep an
eye out. But the second thing is is when we
(13:59):
finally find them and try to help work with them
with them, not do it to them, work with them
to address their issues. We also have to be able
to access treatment that understands the military background. So whether
it be addictions because of PTSD for example, we know
(14:20):
that serving members and veterans find it very difficult to
join any kind of group where nobody knows what they're
talking about, right, So anyway, so things like that are
certainly a passion for me because that is about, you know,
looking after people. What is missing in there is how
(14:41):
do we manage families of veterans.
Speaker 2 (14:44):
Well, And that's I mean, we can talk about legislation
and change that happened in two thousand and six and
prior to that and what happened, but yeah, I'm going
to try to keep it positive it here, but I
think it's important for me if you like, well, I
think so, because I mean I was just going to
finish by saying it. It's important for people to understand
(15:05):
because there's a lot of misinformation out there about what's happened,
what's happening in the future. So it's great to hear
from people who are actually, like yourself, involved in it
so we can get the story straight, so veterans know
when public know what's going on. But you were going
to talk about.
Speaker 4 (15:20):
Great, So it was actually a study done by the
Veterans Committee in the House of Commons, and in fact
Funnily enough, I just bumped into the chair visiting the booth.
And one of the things that I went in as
a witness, what a unique position to be in. I
went in as a witness. And then what we looked
at is, you know that two thousand and six line,
(15:41):
so you have two different packages. You have the first
package for veterans and the Veterans Charter and stuff like that.
That really was post World War two, and it was
an absolute genius plan to resettle a mass immobilization of
Canadians with a big missing chunk of those who were
not coming back, to try and prevent another massive depression,
(16:02):
recession to depression right World War yes, so trying not
to repeat that again. So of course there were many
elements little tinkering, tinkering, tinkering, and two thousand and six
came along, and I mean, I think most people can
say it makes sense, Okay, you got to do something,
But I think we also need to be very realistic
that at that time, in that decade when that happened,
(16:25):
we had been through some horrendous post Cold War battles.
So you had veterans who could be injured a day
apart and one would have the more what was felt
to be a robust benefits and pension package versus the
two thousand and six So one of the things that
I talked about was how do you harmonize the two.
(16:46):
It is not a hard line because two thousand and
six and our primary effort was Afghanistan where we were
taking casualties physical and mental health like rain, and so
the effort to take time to harmonize to see the difference.
So instead of fixing a hard line in the sand,
(17:06):
make it as an era thing to the end of.
Speaker 1 (17:09):
The Afghan conflict.
Speaker 4 (17:10):
I'm not saying that's what they'll do, but go back
and review how you can make a bit more of
a blurry line so people don't feel so the moral
injury being abandoned because buddy was injured one day and
then the next guy was on the wrong side the rail.
So that's one thing we looked at. The other thing
is there's some very antiquated and patriarchal clauses, which I'm
pleased to say there has been effort on things like
(17:32):
the gold digger's clause.
Speaker 1 (17:33):
It's not the real name for it.
Speaker 4 (17:34):
You know, if you haven't got someone after sixty then
they can't have any of your money.
Speaker 1 (17:39):
Oh my goodness, how don't you tell.
Speaker 4 (17:41):
Me I can be in a relationship with There has
been an amendment, though the Act itself hasn't been changed,
so you are seeing things slowly but surely. But what
is different now than it's ever been before is that
as you have veterans testifying, and you know, for your
listeners I experience. I've been on both sides of the fence,
right just on the peeking through the rails, and now
(18:04):
I'm on other side of the fence. It is very
hard to find a person who doesn't care about our
military are about veterans, like politicians, really well meaning people.
But it's very easy if you don't know about it
to move on to the next thing. That is not
a criticism, it's a fact in all humans. So to
have veterans out there, as we always say, and we've
(18:25):
been pushing this when I was on the other side
of the fence, nothing about us without us when it
comes to the human factors of serving and veterans. To
actually have veterans called to actually talk about it. That
when the committee members make these recommendations and then hold
the minister accountable for actually implementing those recommendations and if not,
(18:46):
why not. So the accountability, the visibility and the voices
of veterans is there and that makes me pretty proud.
Speaker 3 (18:52):
Yeah, and that's really good.
Speaker 2 (18:53):
And I know the two thousand states in because I
was at the table when we were going through that,
so I understand the challenges and to try to blur
that line, I think it's more than the blurring line.
I think we need to go back to you know,
that's a whole different podcast in itself. But the reason
that happened was more than just from the government side.
It was also from the veterans community side too that
(19:14):
that happened. But anyways, it's we have it now, we
need to work with what we got. But I mean,
you know that that brought up the age sixty five
issue too, the reduction at age sixty five. And when
I was talking, I'll say it, but you know, when
we were talking to the DM and the ADM at
the time, the deal was at age sixty five, that's
(19:35):
supposed to be a bridge benefit. It didn't occur, right,
So now what happened after that discussion? Who knows and
what happened, But now we have an issue where there
is a reduction at age sixty five for people in
i RB right, and that impacts when we look at
some of the studies on elder you know, aging veterans,
(19:57):
and that too. It impacts quality of life at that age.
Very important to have that for the benefits and for
health care and and everything else. But I'm glad you're
working on that stuff.
Speaker 4 (20:07):
Yes, and and that the age sixty five one is
interesting because you know things have gone up to sixty
seven and other places. So the question is is how
the money and where it comes from? And of course
that is not Maria of expertise, but I do know
it comes up again and again, and well they do bridging.
What is meant to happen is then it's really who's paying.
(20:30):
So it should not really drop, but we know in
effect it does because then you have pension components that
come in how the calculations are done. So I'm hoping
that as we move forward, especially as the world gets
more and more unsafe, we grow the size of our
Canadian armed forces. It is actually about retention, you know
(20:52):
what I how I'm treated when I will watch and
I will I will decide. So my hope is moving forward,
and I will keep an eye on it that this
does come up. But we know that there's the truth
and there's what appears to be true, and they have
to match. And I think one of the challenges, especially
in our most harmed veterans, and I don't care if
(21:14):
you're RCMP or Canadian Armedforces, is that you feel betrayed
by a system. And that is really tough. So you
are also dealing with the psychological impact. And it's not
every veteran, we know that, but you feel very betrayed
by the system and there is no making it right,
if that makes sense. But how can we not contributed
(21:35):
to a moral injury they may have received while in
service by how we treat them afterwards, And so certainly
moving forward, it'll be something to watch well.
Speaker 2 (21:43):
And that's just say it is. It's about understanding what
the truth is. And I think, you know, veterans are
looking to help from my experience and what I feel
from what I've seen, they're looking to help. They're getting engaged.
They're upset about being harmed by a system. So sometimes
the information that's out there is not correct, absolutely and Facebook,
(22:05):
and that makes it worse, you know, and that can
then lead to other things that are not helpful. And
sometimes it's just kind of stop in the train and say, okay,
you know, have you realize that this is the actual fact,
this is actually what's happening, And people, in my experience,
a lot of people go, oh, I didn't realize that.
I didn't realize that that was offered by Veterans Affairs,
(22:26):
or I didn't realize that that was because everything just
gets you know, people are hurting there and they're trying
to find a way, and unlike, we don't have a
union that's fighting for us. So that's why we have
to go and do it.
Speaker 3 (22:39):
All the time. We do, you know, so it makes
it harder, I think.
Speaker 1 (22:43):
Very much so.
Speaker 4 (22:44):
And Veterans Affairs has worked really hard to try and
make systems easier. But it shouldn't be a herculean effort,
especially when you're injured, no matter how, because it's where
you get away with just one thing when you're injured
to have to try and figure out the system. So
(23:04):
improving navigation I even use this with people or housing insecure.
Speaker 1 (23:08):
These are some of the things that we heard.
Speaker 4 (23:10):
And again I'm not talking out of turn because we
haven't published the report yet, but you know, how can
it be a bit easier. We're not talking about less
you know, check and balances to make sure it really
is linked to service that's happening. But how can we
make sure that a veter knows how and how can
we reach out and pull them in rather than waiting
(23:30):
for them to push you know, how can we do that,
especially as we figure out who the most vulnerable are.
And it doesn't mean that you're going to be housing insecure,
it's not that, but remember that's the end state that
in suicide or in states, if people have completely fallen through.
So what better can we do as they transition out
of the military. And we also heard the rcmpiece the
(23:52):
same way transition out so that we can start tagging
those at greater risk for certain things. And while in
the military, from a case management perspective, you are designated
level one, two, three, and threes.
Speaker 1 (24:07):
We know we need to give them.
Speaker 4 (24:08):
Lots of support, lots of advice and guidance. But the
problem is the Canadian Armedforces can only go while they're serving.
But that's that's that's the law. But what it needs
to be able to do is transition over to back.
Speaker 1 (24:21):
Now back. Here's this.
Speaker 4 (24:24):
So the next step is now what and have a
little bit of data. A little bit of data be good.
Speaker 2 (24:31):
I believe evidence space. This is why we're doing this podcast.
This is why we're you know, we did the Alpine Challenge,
which is a pain program for veterans. It's all heavidy
space because and it's not to say anything bad is
out there, but it's just to bring things back to
fact and to say what really is is going to
is going to help. And that's part of that transition
piece too. We look at the military mindset, you know,
(24:52):
and I say to the veterans who struggle, is you
have to remember.
Speaker 3 (24:56):
Is you have changed entering the service. This filling world
hasn't changed. You've changed.
Speaker 1 (25:01):
That's it.
Speaker 2 (25:02):
So now when we leave, what are the strength and
differences that you can apply?
Speaker 3 (25:07):
Now? What are your strengths and a lot of it.
Speaker 2 (25:09):
We just talked about this with Hellen too, because it's
interesting because the UK are having the same thing in
other countries.
Speaker 3 (25:17):
It's so normal.
Speaker 2 (25:18):
As you know, you served, it becomes so normal for
us these behaviors that when we're not you not showing
up on time or something, we have this physical reaction
but we don't understand what it is absolutely, So my
point is if we're not if we don't know what
we know and we're not aware, that makes our transition hard.
So we need to start being aware. And that's I
think where the evidence space comes in. These are the
(25:39):
changes one may go through, and this is what one
can do to draw on the strength and differences asking forward.
Speaker 1 (25:47):
I really think that's a critical point.
Speaker 4 (25:49):
And the other piece is it's a different world out
there out there. See where I said that, and you
know I meant it and you felt what I said
that maybe some of your listeners understand as well. And
I can put all the bits and pieces in place
benefits sign this form go here, which is a really
good start because that hasn't been around forever. But what
(26:10):
about for those who really need it? What about a
mentorship program? How do my skills as an infanteer translate
into the real world? You know, because employment is important,
especially if you don't have a big pension. When you're
going out, you need other work. And if you are
left like you've dropped me on the face of the moon,
(26:30):
and I have to figure out how But and this
isn't the first time I've heard it, but we probably
need career mentors. We do have senior leadership. We do
it in business. You know how to mentor the best
CEO or whatever it is. But wouldn't that be a
unique for those who really are identified at risk? Because
put it this way, we know the money is there
for retraining, but great, oh gosh, here's this amount of money,
(26:54):
but what do I do with it? I have just
been institutionalized for so much in my life where it's
a rigid, power based, hierarchical structure.
Speaker 1 (27:01):
And I'm not even.
Speaker 4 (27:02):
Saying that's abusive. It's a fact I do what I
was told. And then you go out there and you're like,
and you got no choice, got no choice? Or it's
kind of wobbly. You're like punching a cloud.
Speaker 1 (27:15):
And you know what me?
Speaker 4 (27:16):
As I retired as a rear admiral and I became
as editor, could you get more privilege? But at times
I felt like I felt lost? You know, I promise
you I was continuing to function. But if I who
had every deck lined up, not deliberately, that was by happenstance,
trust me. But if that happens, can you imagine somebody
(27:36):
who joined at eighteen, went overseas maybe domestic operations as
an infanteer, my son as a reserve intera. That's why
I keep picking on them, very proud of them, and
then all of a sudden we're like, here's this money,
go out and do whatever I think there are with data.
There are things that we can do to improve. Not
(28:00):
everybody needs it, but I'd say a chunk, especially the injured,
the really injured many who were at these games here
could have benefited dramatically from something like that.
Speaker 3 (28:09):
Yeah, I agree with you.
Speaker 2 (28:10):
It's just that whole mindset and transition piece that's important
because we're the ones that.
Speaker 3 (28:15):
Have changed, right.
Speaker 2 (28:16):
So yes, absolutely, I could sit here and talk for hours,
but I know you have a busy schedule, so I
appreciate all that.
Speaker 4 (28:23):
Would I be to make one comment on families that's
been terribly important to me. Sorry, we just have a
little bit of racket in the background. So you know,
we talk about how do families fit in? And you
probably remember in your career they hated being treated like
what was it, DF and E dependence furniture and effects,
so basically being treated like the furniture. Well, you know
(28:44):
they're on their own like they are Canadian citizens, the
responsibility of the province. So what we did is we
went pendulum in the drywall, way way, way too far,
and then we started to lose sight of what families
actually mean to defense and security member veterans as well.
So just put it than the spectrum. So if you
actually understand how women, peace and security works. If I
(29:05):
was to kind of I wish I could remember who
said this, but they always talk about the hand that
rocks the credal rules the world. And when you look
at families, if a person wishes to serve, the family
will be a huge deciding factor. And if we want
to create a strong defense force, we have to be
(29:25):
there for families because when a service member goes home,
recognizing we all follow the rules, who do they go to,
who do they listen to? Usually a partner, an intimate partner,
very dear friend. And they do things in the best
interests of their children. So if you were to ask
me an Iami was military. I was a military spouse,
(29:48):
I was a mother, now I'm a regimental mom. You know,
I've had all these roles. But if you were to
ask me, is that families are a critical point for
defense and security in Canada, and we can't treat them
like df andy anymore, foist them onto the provinces. We
(30:09):
need to consider them and figure out mechanisms at the
federal level to fund daycare, to try and help with employment.
Speaker 2 (30:17):
Yeah, you're right, because they pick up and move and
now absolutely what are we going to do for work?
Speaker 3 (30:24):
Absolutely, so maybe we shoulot another podcast on that one.
Speaker 4 (30:26):
Sorry, I should stop now, my apologies for going. Only
wanted to give a shout out to our families.
Speaker 2 (30:31):
No, but I'd be open to do another talk on
that one because I think the families are so important
and we were doing research with chronic pain and veterans
in their kids, and I think, yeah, I'd love to
if the time permits to have you back.
Speaker 1 (30:42):
Well you know where I work.
Speaker 3 (30:45):
Thank you well, Thank you so much Rebecca for being
on the show.
Speaker 5 (30:48):
Really appreciate it.
Speaker 3 (30:59):
For feed back about the show.
Speaker 2 (31:00):
More information on chronic pain, you can visit our website
Veterans Chronicpain dot Ca. And if you want more information
on Invictus, you can go to their website Invictusgamesfoundation dot org.
Remember to like, follow, subscribe, and share this podcast. Thanks
for listening to a special Invictus Live series as part
of the Most Painful Podcast. I'm Your host Tom Hoppy.
(31:23):
Stay safe and keep the hope alive.
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