The Prisoner: Ahead of its Time and Continually Relevant with Jane Merrow, Tony Shaffer and Doomcock

The Prisoner is considered by many one of the most insightful and profound television series in entertainment history.
Led by the writing, direction and acting of Patrick McGoohan, #ThePrisoner deeply and allegorically explored several themes including #individuality, government control, #surveillance, manipulation, rebellion, conformity, sense of self and personal resilience. The shows were intriguing and entertaining on several levels, thus we are looking back at this classic series on The Outhouse Lounge with:
Jane Merrow -- Actress. She played Allison on "The Schizoid Man" episode of The Prisoner. In addition to her long list of credits, Jane is working on a new film titled "ANDY," focusing on Artificial Intelligence
Tony Shaffer - Former Intelligence Officer/Special Ops, NY Times Best Selling Author and perhaps a Real Life Danger Man and Number Six
Dictor Von Doomcock - Noted Supervillain, Future Ruler of Earth who broadcasts from the Center of the Earth on his Youtube Channel:  @overlorddvdsbrother2063  https://www.youtube.com/@OverlordDVD 

During our Outhouse Lounge The Prisoner Session, we discuss several aspects of the series including: ·   
      Patrick McGoohan's acting prowess, his creation of the show
·         Why did Number 6 resign?
 ·         Jane Merrow's experience working with McGoohan behind the scenes of "The Schizoid Man" episode 
·         Jane Merrow's Alison character and a look into "The Schizoid Man"
 ·         Why Patrick McGoohan has called The Prisoner an Allegory
 ·         The creation of Rover and the unfortunate demise of the original one.
 ·         Underlying themes within The Prisoner
 ·         Who is Number 1?
 ·         What is The Village?
 ·         Information: The chess games between Number 6 and the Number 2s
 ·         Individuality and conformity
 ·         Thoughts about "Fall Out" and the series ending scenes.  

We also talk about Jane's "ANDY" film and thoughts on the future benefits and dangers of #artificialintelligence. #AI  
Check out our sponsor: https://www.getrxmedsnow.com 
Thank you for watching (or listening) -- what are your thoughts on The Prisoner?  Comment, share and spread the word.   Follow us on Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/OuthouseLounge Follow Chris on Twitter at @ChrisCordani1 Our website; outhouselounge.com

Episode Transcript

(00:05):
Welcome to the Outhouse Lounge, wherewe relax and talk about stuff. I
should change the tagline because they won'tlet me say that word on YouTube and
some other places. All the timeyou wonder why I'm wearing this garb hair
well. One of the most fascinatingtelevision shows in the entertainment world and entertainment
history is The Prisoner featuring Patrick McGowanand a rather interesting cast of plants,

(00:29):
allies, conspirators, fellow prisoners andtorturers. That sounds nice, doesn't it.
The show can be enjoyed on manylevels, from its action and mind
games to all of the philosophies underlyingthemes and questions. After the seventeen episode
run was completed, so I figured, I have a cunning plan. Why

(00:51):
not bring some unmutual friends over totalk about it? Here right in the
outhouse Lounge with me today are avery special guest, Jane Merrow, who
who played Allison in The Schizoid Man. And I hope she can't read my
mind because it's it'll be it'll bea very short show if she decided that
Tony Schaeffer, former intelligence officer SpecialOps, is with me. Perhaps a

(01:15):
real life number six, or hecould have been one. Tony man.
I gotta tell you that jacket looksperfect on you. Thank you. I
am. I am not a number. I'm a great wearer of jackets,
that's right. Perhaps a real lifedanger man as well. We also have
Dictor von Dunkok, the pop culturecritic, super villain from the center of

(01:37):
the earth under the only man whodresses better than Tony and I damn it
looks good, thank you, thankyou, sir. It is a actual
vintage odd Fellows lounge, I mean, a lodge ceremonial jacket, really one
of a kind, and I'm proudto wear it, and we're happy to
have you here. And of courseDumkok is going to be doing something very

(02:00):
cool when it comes to the Prisonervery soon, and we're going to let
him talk about that just a littlebit later on, but first let's start
here. The show was iconic inmany ways, Jane, you were right
there on the show, and Patrickmcgoon was a big part of it.
His acting style, his facial expressions, he told the story that way,
the music that was added to certainscenes in the program, and of course

(02:23):
all these other fine actors who don'teven have to speak sometimes to convey a
very very interesting message and of coursebring people at the edge of their seats
for each episode. Absolutely. Imean, Patrick was a visionary. He
was a wonderful actor. He couldhave had an extraordinary career on stage.

(02:47):
He did a Nibsen play fairly earlyin his career called Brand, for which
he got phenomenal notices, and hedid a lot about the theater. He
did a lot of cinema early whenwhen British cinema was in that sort of
interesting phase of real British cinema.It was sort of a lot of black

(03:09):
and white, lowish budgets, butextremely good scripts with some wonderful directors.
And then the ed plan came inover in England and a lot of people
sort of launched into the film industry, and to some extent it damaged that

(03:30):
the actual intrinsic British industry, theseed of the old black and white and
all that stuff, and a lotof it moved into television, and of
course television was, you know,largely dominated by Sir lou Grad or Lord
Grade, and fortunately for us,he liked Patrick and Patrick had a wonderful
series called Danger Man. I thinkit's called Secret Agent in America. I

(03:53):
did three of them and really lovedworking with So when the Prisoner came along,
he said, well, come backand do another do another part,
And we had this great show TheSchizoid Man, where I sort of had
a sort of telepathic empathetic relationship withhim, but plays this really unpleasant,

(04:18):
well not unpleasant, she wasn't shewas just stupid, really who betrays him?
And we're not that stupid? Andthen it's sorry at the end.
And of course the whole show isabout Patrick trying to escape this this place,
and a lot of people felt thatwhat was sort of it was an

(04:39):
extension in a way of the dangerMan character, who had ended up as
a sort of a bad, naughtyspy or a naughty, naughty secret agent,
and he'd been banned to this sortof beautiful, blissful prison which is
paught Mariam and couldn't get out,And that was the whole whole thrust.

(05:00):
So the show was Patrick trying toescape while he was interacting with all of
us other people there, including me, and I had a wonderful part with
him. But he was a thrillingactor to work with. I loved it
he was not comfortable with actresses atall. This was his reputation, and

(05:21):
he had a reputation for being notdifficult but kind of a bit intimidating to
work with. Well, I didn'tfind that. I just found a joy
to work with. He was incrediblydisciplined, totally prepared, and you had
to be ready to And everyone said, oh, you're going to hate him.

(05:43):
He's difficult to work with. Hedoesn't like women, he doesn't like
actresses. And I thought, well, how bad can it be. As
long as I know my lines andturn up and hit the marks, all
right, I should be all right. Unfortunately, that's what happened, and
he and I, I think,as they say in America, bonded and
and became a good working partnership whilewe were working together. Jane, just

(06:05):
on a personal note, all thebest spies are naughty spies. Just for
the record, speaking, I wantto I want to get exactly, yes,
exactly. Well, you're very fortunate, Jane, that you didn't actually
have to fight Patrick mcgo and duringyour episode, UH, there is one

(06:28):
actor who tells the tale of havinghand to hand fight with UH with Patrick
McGoo and as the prisoner and UH, and he was really fighting. I
mean, he was saying that hewas strangling me at one point, and
I'm like, I don't know whatto do, uh, because he was
so intense. I mean, theman is a genius. And I believe

(06:49):
that. I believe that this isthe greatest television show ever made. Uh.
It has no peer, it hasno parallel. And I believe that
it's because of Patrick MacGowan, becausehe was singularly in charge of it,
as you said, Jane, andand thus he was able to really really

(07:10):
make it a work of art,a personal statement, not a program by
committee. And I think that thatis why it's It will never be equaled,
because no one will ever have thatamount of influence and power. Again,
I couldn't agree more. And Ithink in that respect, he was
very He was fortunate that he wasworking with Lord Gray because Lord Gray gave

(07:31):
him that kind of autonomy. Hehad the successful show which was Secret Agent,
and you know, he basically hegot he got that right to have
the control over the show. Ithink he you know, some people were
a bit overwhelmed by him, andI know that there was a couple of

(07:56):
you know, there was the numbertwo character, number two by different actors.
There was one of one of theactors who I later worked with on
a film AC called Leo McKern wonderful, probably my favorite. I think he
practically had enough after working with Patrick. He did the word that came back.

(08:22):
Sorry of my co You know,actresses that I've worked with who couldn't
stand Patrick, they just found himjust they just couldn't bear it. They
found him frightening and intimidating and abully and everything else. But I didn't.
I just loved working with him.I just thought, if you know,
you go up, I'll go up. You go up, I'll go

(08:43):
up to I never went higher,but it was one of those things where
you just it was just a youknow it, it was like a high.
Really, it really was a bighigh working with him. I love.
Let's get into the show. Iwant to ask a question to all
three of you. It's speculative.The real question is it was a two

(09:03):
part question because the second part comesto Tony after this. But the first
question is why do you think numbersix resigned? Where or when? When
he actually resigned, he said hebanged his fist on the desk and said
I resigned and then the whole thingwent. Why would you think he resigned?
I mean, the man was actuallygoing to be going on vacation somewhere.

(09:24):
He was running off. He hithe high tailed it out of town
when he resigned too. By theway, what do you think he might
have seemed? I don't know.I think he would have just, you
know, got the hack out andhid himself as far as he could from
the rest of you know, wherehe might ever be found. But rumor
hasn't that if we're you know,relating this to somewhere like m I five
or m I six, you don'tget out as simple as that. And

(09:48):
he certainly didn't get out. Theyshipped him off to this village and he
couldn't get out, Tony, Icould see that. I'm surprised you weren't
like the village. Well, Imean, I've Jane, you're new to
the group, but I've told everybodythat we're like the mafia. You never
retire. I mean, I Istill get asked to come back and help

(10:11):
out as much as a rebel thatI am, despite the fact that I
was a whistleblower and all sorts ofnaughty things. They still you still get
asked to come back. So Ithink that is that is something that you
correctly identify as like you really neverdo fully retire, You just don't.
It's it's it's just it's a lifestyle. You pick a lifestyle when you become

(10:33):
an operative, but it is whatit is. And to that second point,
Jane, to to why he resigned, and doom Cock I think probably
has some strong, strong opinions ofthis too. Yes. One of the
things you learn from being an operativeand working at the level I worked,
and theoretically what that level Patrick worked, you start seeing how things really work
and you start becoming disgusted. Andone of the things that Patrick said,

(10:56):
and I think in many ways thearea was reflective of Patrick's disdain for bureaucracy
and the manipulation of individuals. AndI have a question for you, Jane
on that in a second. Butto me, you see that when you
get to the top, when youknow, I've been in the meetings with
directors of CIA, I've been atthe White House, I've had to see
things that you get really upset aboutabout the manipulation. I think that's what

(11:24):
drove him to say I've had enough. I think that's why he's correctly portrayed
as being very impassioned, breaking thesaucer of the of the tea cup and
basically saying, I've had enough.And even when you've had enough. I
think that's part of it is thesystem doesn't want to let you go.
And I think system I think Patrickcorrectly portrayed that in his in his number

(11:48):
six portrayal. And by the way, I do believe that John Drake is
number six, just saying there yougo. I agree with that. I
think we know why he resigned Inthe episode the Chimes of Big Ben when
he doesn't know, he doesn't hashe not yet realized the KHN. You

(12:09):
know, he's talking to father andgay and and and they Why did you
resign? He says, all peaceof mind, all peace of mind.
Listen, sonny boy, you knowwhat are you talking about? And he
says, I resigned because for avery long time. I wait, wait
a minute, and he and he'sheard the Chimes of Big Ben and stops.

(12:31):
But essentially it is a matter ofconscience. I believe that he has
been tormented by the things he's hadto do and the things he knows.
I think clearly it was for peaceof mind. He was going on vacation.
I believe him entirely. I thinkin that little moment, ironically,

(12:54):
the village got what it wanted.I think he was, you know,
unless he was lying to his superiors, who he believed were, you know,
honestly on his side at that point. I mean, he had gone
all the way over there, youknow, he says, I escaped and
came back. Yeah, because Ithought, you know that it was different.

(13:16):
Well isn't it different? You know? To them? And he starts
to kind of bristle there. ButI think in that scene we get some
very definitive answers about we don't getdetails, and I'm sure the village wanted
details, and also I think maybethey didn't believe him, But I believe
him it was a matter of conscience. If it leads me to my next

(13:37):
question, Tony, have you everhad one of those arguments with your bosses
where stood up right in front ofhis desk, I paced around the office
and I just bang your fists sohard on the desk that the teacup flew
up in the air, just likein the opening titles. I have literally
jumped on people's desks to make apoint. I'm not kidding, I am.
I am completely serious, And yeah, I mean it's about isn't it.

(14:01):
It is ja ply bout control.I mean, and that's is what
he's fighting against all the time,the entire prisoner, the control that he's
and he can't escape that. AndI think, you know, again coming
back to the AI situation with thisfilm that we've been making, it comes
down to control, and we're losingcontrol human beings, of our of our

(14:22):
destiny as humans now. And Jim, I have a question for you on
the technology issue, you guys,to your point, you you there's a
link between your program now and thePrisoner. What did you think when you
saw Patrick come up with wireless phones? I mean only now you know,

(14:43):
all these years later, do wehave wireless phone? What did you think
about all that advanced technology and theconcepts of technology becoming I didn't masters,
to be honest, I really didn't. I mean I just accepted everything I
saw. It was kind of scifi to me, and that was part
of it. I've always been muchmore interested and engrossed in the human aspect

(15:05):
of all of the work that I'veever done. Is the people and the
motives and all of that. Soall the other bits and pieces are just
bits and pieces to me. Nowit's changing because the bits and pieces are
beginning to dominate our lives to suchan extent that we are getting completely out
of control. But in those days, it was they were just accessories.

(15:28):
They were just they were just thereand part of the plot. So I
didn't did you do you think Patricksaw this coming because he did use that
technology. He was an incredibly brightman, a very very intelligent, forward
thinking man, and you know,he was kind of obsessed with this control
situation. I mean a lot ofpeople would say, well, he was

(15:52):
a control freak, but he reallyhe wasn't. He wasn't. I mean,
he wasn't control freaks to me,or people who want to be controlled
just because they want to be incontrol. He always only wanted to be
in control because he wanted to maintainthe quality, the integrity, and the
truth of the stories he was tryingto tell. That was what and ndeed,
the message which is what we're talkingabout that he was trying to get

(16:15):
across in the show that you know, we as humans are fighting. I
mean, you know, we're talkingabout the secret service. Goodness knows.
I'm sure they control much more ofour lives than we like to think about,
and they definitely want information. Jane, you mentioned the human aspect of
it and Patrick McGowan. Again,I've said this about a lot of the

(16:37):
actors on that program, but PatrickMcGowan can't help tell the story without even
saying a word. There are twodistinct looks he had that told you something
really important about number six in hissituation there. One is that look of
determinations. Face showed determination where heknew he was going to get out,
he had to get out, andhe was going to do it however possible,
and he was never going to releasethat information. But then every once

(16:59):
in a while, well and ofcourse that very end with the closing titles
before the bar has come across hisface, that look of hopelessness, whereas
I'm not kidding that that was againcoming back to acting. The biggest tool
I think most actors have with theireyes, and Patrick's eyes were so powerful.
I mean he would look into youreyes and you'd look into his,

(17:22):
and you could you know, youknew he was just sort of he was
inside reading what was going on inyour head. I mean it was really
weird. I can't I can't explainit that, but that's one of the
things that made it so exciting.They're very fair for you actors that connect
in that risk in that way,and it's generally through the eyes. Absolutely,

(17:42):
he had an incredible intensity. Andto quote Number two himself, Leo
McKern watching him, I believe itis in Once upon a Time when he's
watching Patrick mcgoin in his house andhe says he can make even the act
of putting on a dressing gown appearto be a gesture of defiance and at

(18:07):
I know it's it's amazing and andand Patrick, and also number two being
tormented like like why do you care? Like saying that to the over and
over to the to the screen ashe's watching him, why do you care?
And then he calls him up,you know, in that respect,
The skid Stoid Man, apart frommy part and in which I loved and

(18:29):
wonderful and everything, was such anextraordinary show because it's the one show in
which he loses control, he becomesand they brainwashed him into this other,
you know, this this replica ofhim, and he now he doesn't know
who he is. Anymore. Andit's the only time I think. I
don't think there are any other showsthat I can think of where we see

(18:52):
Patrick out of control, the characterout of control, his lost control of
his situation completely. And that's whatthat was once. It's one of the
It was where number six didn't winevery episode, he won some and number
two won some. It was theperfect seventeen episode chess game. Yeah.
Yeah, And that's the point though, Jane. He actually gained, He
actually worked to regain control that entireepisode. Oh yes, that was his

(19:15):
purpose. Yeah, that was thestrength of the character that he fought back,
and to include the actual destruction ofNumber twelve. I mean, that's
the first time I ever saw Robertkill someone. But maybe I'm wrong on
that, but he killed number twelve. He had Here's a question, and
I thought this was rather interesting.Your character Jane had a name, sorry

(19:41):
s. Your character had a nameAlison. Oh Alison. Yes. I
don't know why she had a name, but she did. I found that
interesting because it might have been foresightthat that she would betray him, because
she might have been in on somethingor may not have been. But the
fact that you had name and eventhe number two's never had a name.

(20:02):
But supervisor doesn't have a name.The butler doesn't have a name. Well,
even number six really doesn't have aname, does it. Well,
they all have names, I mean, but but I suspect that what it
was was they allowed, you know, Allison uh, the permission to reveal
that name to number six in orderto foster yet again another sense of intimacy

(20:27):
and trust. Yeah, they hada relationship, a relationship of of of
communication. Well, you know,the whole mind reading thing, which was
genuine. I mean, we think, we believe it really was genuine.
But the fact that she portrayed himin the end because she was just she

(20:48):
was just as we could. Youknow, she was just as terrified and
a tool of the of the systemor whatever it was, as everybody else.
Well that wasn't that part of theJane is that his strong character still
came back and was very resilient inthe end. Jane did I think Jane
figured out that he was number sixwhen she was there at the the helicopter

(21:11):
talking to him and wanting to comeup, which he knew she knew first.
Ques she apologized, She says,I wouldn't have done it again.
I'm sorry it's too late now,no fanbric, the trust was gone.
Want to get some underlying concepts.But I was always curious about one thing.
If you and a friend of mineas well, we were watching the

(21:33):
opening titles and UH in prep forthis again and watching a bunch of episodes,
and we talked about Tony. Youbrought up the foresight, about the
UH, about the UH the cellphone. Well, I think in the
opening titles, remember that guy thatguesses the guesses number six in his apartment
with a big hat? Was hethe inspiration for the UH? Was he
the inspiration for the Apple bompers andthe Yellow Submarine movie? Ah? I

(22:00):
have to find this out. It'sall psychedelic. Chris, I don't know.
We should, doom Cox. Youshould ask the skull of Calderon about
this. Maybe we should. Well, we've been living in an incredibly innovative,
creative time in the sixties. Imean, it's one of the great
leaps of English civilization if you need. I don't know about the rest of

(22:22):
the world, but we have theBeatles, we had all sorts of things
which are just a giant leap intoa whole different environment really from out of
the you know, dreary sixth fiftiesafter the war. Now, it was
just it was it was like amoving into a psychedelic world. Would you
do you agree with that? TonyWell? I I look back fondly on

(22:47):
everything in the sixties I grew up. I was like very young. I
remember the moon shot, I rememberwatching the landing of the Moon. I
remember seeing things which have stuck withme. I think I'll let Doomcock speaker
for a second, because we're insimilar even though I'm not. I don't
live in the center of the earthlike he does. I think that there's
things that we both become very bigfans of. Doom Cock over to you
on that, what do you doyou? I think we both recognize that

(23:11):
creativity that period is something that we'relacking today. Yes, it was a
It was the greatest period of popculture exuberance and experimentation in history. I
don't think we'll ever see it's likeagain. I mean, look, the
greatest television show of all time,The Prisoner, the greatest band of all
time, the Beatles, the greatestcomedy group of all time, Monty Python's

(23:33):
Flying so oh yes, oh yes, you had in the sixties, the
the entire evolution of the uh youknow, Marvel, univers stan Lee,
Jack Kirby and all of those guysthat had ramifications later on. Star Trek
was created in the sixties. Imean, it's just like hit after hit
after hit after hit, best afterbest after best, and it was.

(23:56):
It was a colossal time of creativityin history because you just I'm reading old
you know, issues of National Lampoon, and you know, you look at
the Columbia Record Club ads in thattime, and you had the Beatles,
Frank Sinatra, you know, WillieNelson, Stephen Wolf, Rolling Stones,

(24:17):
all in the top forty at theexact same time, Andy Williams for the
sake of the Lord. I mean, it's just everything was there. We'll
never see such a rich Petrie dishof culture again. Now it's all stifling.
It's it's pale in comparison. Well, let me Jane a question back
to you on that account, because, as Doomcock just pointed out, correctly,

(24:40):
there's a rainbow. Can I usethe term rainbow here? I guess
I still can. I think rainbowa spectrum of creativity and one of the
things that I would argue having likedDoomkock loved the series, and Chris is
a big fan. Two of justthe very essence of the Prisoner. I
got to ask you about Port Mariam. Port Marian is a character in the

(25:03):
Prisoner. There's no doubt to methat the chessboard, the Roman architecture.
Uh, tell us what it waslike to be there. I wasn't there.
Oh, you weren't there. Younever Also, you just did everything
in the set. That's interesting.Wow. Wow. No, I was

(25:26):
in the MGM studios in Wow,next door to st ubric Making two thousand
and one. Oh my god,speaking of another iconic. I do not
enter this set. You are forbiddento come into the studio. Wow.
No, I never went to PortMary. And I went to Port Marian
much later in one of those andcouple of those fan shows. Soon I

(25:48):
turned out, did my stuff andall that. But no, I sadly
never went there. No. Yeah, so that that's interesting. I always
thought. I thought, I knowthat, I know the MGM studios were
where a lot of these were shot. But I thought, at least some
of these scenes, or at leastyou've been, or at least maybe some
of yours were shot at the airthey shut well, you know in those

(26:11):
days what they would do, andthey'd go on, look, well,
yeah, I mean when we weredoing television, particularly when we're doing a
lot of television, especially on theBBC right then. And I meskedad I
did nineteen eighty four at that time, that which kind of had a stayed
with me. And I'd done thataround about the time I was doing this,

(26:32):
so there was an awful lot ofthat going on in my head at
the time. We would go outand shoot locations, you know, for
a period of time, and thencome back and shoot in the studio,
either on tape with the BBC,or on film, which was with great
foresight, thank you Lord Grade againon film, and on thirty five film,

(26:52):
which was not you know, itwasn't sixteen mili in those days.
He really spent the money and didit on thirty five. So we like
making many movies for that series,and that's why the qualities sustained itself so
long. I think, Oh,it's an extraordinary Yeah, No, I
didn't. I didn't go to PortMarian then. It was just we were

(27:12):
all shot. My stuff was allshot in the studio. I must ask
which production of nineteen eighty four wereyou involved in. It was a BBC
one with an act called David Buck, which a man, a director called
Christopher Morrahan directed. It was afterthe famous Peter Cushing one and before the

(27:36):
Richard Burton John Hurt one, sowe were squished in the middle. In
nineteen sixty six. It was ontape and film, and I have to
say I saw it a couple ofyears ago at a festival and it's written
by wonderful Nigel Neil. It wasadapted by Nigel Neil, who was a
brilliant, brilliant writer, and Ihad stood the test of time in an

(27:56):
extraordinary way. I mean, ChristopherMorahan and Nigel Neil were two of the
big stalls at the BBC at thetime, and some of the television we
were doing then was just amazing,absolutely amazing. Unfortunately, the BBC and
indeed ITV scrubbed a lot of thestuff because they wanted to reuse the tapes.

(28:19):
Yea, what was coming in thefuture. But fortunately lou Gray knew
what was coming. I think hehad the sense to him to make sure
whatever his stuff was going to keepits legacy bye by putting it onto a
film as opposed to tape. Thankgod you're listening and watching the Prisoner special

(28:41):
on the out House Lounge. Here, I have Tony Schaeffer with me,
I have Dumkak with me and veryspecial guest Jane Merrow, who played Allison
on The Schizoid Man. She's onshe has many things happening. Here's something
happening. So we're going to talkabout that, Jane, very soon.
But I do want to talk aboutI just want to mention this great website.
If you're watching or listening to theprogram, check out the Unmutual website.

(29:03):
It's the definitive source for information andwhere you can find pretty cool stuff.
Uh. I believe they have alink to the village shop where I
got this keen scarf if you will, so check it out the Unmutual website.
Uh. It's it's easy to read, it's very user friendly, but
it does have pretty much almost everythingyou need to know about this program.

(29:25):
But here's something there. You go, it's a neat, there's you have
action figures. You have pretty coolstuff here. Blogh question here Jane.
Before we went on the air,you had an interesting story about Rover Rover
when you when you're younger watching theprogram and you're and you see this big
white balloon chasing people down. Thething is terrifying. It's absolutely terrifying to

(29:51):
somebody on the war and it comesout of the water, and it and
it and again another cell phone justcode orange. You know, Rover is
coming. That thing was scary.You couldn't beat it because it was going
to catch up to you. Well, the story, as I understand,
because I Bernie Williams was a producerwho became a producer, Bernard Williams,

(30:12):
he was our first a d Ithink on the show, and I think
he told me the story. Hesaid, you know the story of Rover,
And I said, no, youknow, tell me. He said,
Well, we had this machine Idid. I did a six million
dollar man a few years back inthe eighties, and we had this extraordinary
thing called a doomsday machine, andpeople were terrified of it. It was
this weird thing that you know,made this awful noise running around. And

(30:36):
I think Rover was that kind ofmachine to start with. But it was
radio control. What there is Ithink that's probably what it's similarly is that
it yes, it doesn't well,it was radio operated and you know,
somebody had to operate it like theydo the drones now, and some brites

(30:57):
Spart wrote, you know, radiooperated it right into the sea. So
this one thing the presumably only hadone prop because those things were very expensive
in those days and nowadays as well. And it was gone. That was
it. Now they had to comeup with something very very quickly to just

(31:22):
to to supplant it. And Patrickbeing Patrick, and being the brilliant man
that he was, he said hethought up the balloon. And I think
the balloon is much more terrifying thanthe original Rover would have been. That
makes a lot of sense. Andnobody and nobody on the show could beat
Rover. Nobody, no. Andyou know, it's this awful thing of

(31:45):
having. You know, if youimagine being suffocated by surround rapp or whatever
it's called, you know, it'sthe same principle. Your face goes in
and you can't breathe and you're swallowedup and that's it, goodbye, I
know. And also of course itgoes easy on you or kind of fakes
the whole thing. Like the firstepisode, there is only one man.

(32:06):
There's only one man. I wantto get to that, Tony. There's
only one man in television history whodid defeat Rover. By the way,
Simpson defeated Rover with a spork.And by the way, we found out
about Number six, number twelve fromyour episode too. Apparently Number six invented

(32:28):
the bottomless peanut bag and number twelveon the show knew the deadly secret to
tic texts. Can I just aska quick question. I didn't even know
The Prisoner was on in the Statesuntil I don't know about twenty fifteen,
sixteen, and a friend wrote tome and he said, somebody has told
me to watch this wonderful show calledThe Prisoner. Then I found out that

(32:51):
it was on Amazon. Is thisthe first time it was shown in America?
Or had it been? No?I thought as a kid, I
saw it was on CBS. Yeah, it was originally on CBS. I
saw it on PBS. They wereshowing it and they had the Prisoner Enigma
with a Warner Troyer like having commentaryafter each episode and he later went on

(33:14):
to interview Patrick. But yeah,it was. It was on the PBS,
like I would guess. I sawit around when I was young,
seventy five. Perhaps, Oh wow, okay, well that that's interesting,
but it obviously didn't quite catch onthe white scuogon. Now, well,
no, I saw it. Iwas literally I was born in sixty two.

(33:36):
It came out in sixty seven,sixty eight, so I was literally
five years old when I saw it. I remember it. I remember they
Yeah, and maybe that's why I'mso screwed up now late in life.
I saw it on ther I wouldexplain it a lot, but anyway,
my point being is that things likeRover stuck with me seeing that come out.
I mean I remember that as akid, and it's like terri parifying.

(34:00):
Yeah, well, I'm more likeJane. You know. The thing
that's stuck with me was not thetechnology, not the phone at all.
It was Patrick mcgowin's struggle for individuality, his fierce commitment to defy authority.
That's what's stuck with me as akid. Honestly, I never really thought

(34:22):
a lot about Rover or cell phonesor any of that technology. Although I
would analyze things as a kid,like why are the lights on the eyes
of the statues flashing as they surveil? And the answer I came up with
as a kid was because they wanthim to know he's being surveiled. That's

(34:42):
obvious that they want him to beintimidated and know that the eyes are always
upon him. But you see,it's so relevant in terms of going back
to the your world thing. Imean, I love doing nineteen eighty four
because of the love story. Theretwo individuals who defy Big Brother by having
a love affair and then eventually chickenout and where she portrays him. Uh,

(35:08):
and that's the end of him.But it's not dissimilar from the prisoner.
You know, it's the Big Brotheraspect of something control. Always got
to be in control of the humanlives. I think that's Patrick Patrick,
and you know that was his Thatwas what he was. He was his
his the monkey on his shoulder.I would say it was something that seemed

(35:31):
to haunt him throughout his theatrical Idon't know about his private life, but
certainly throughout his his his expressions ofhis through his work. He had I
think I saw a thing with hisdaughter. She said, so much of
the actual story was actually Patrick.I mean, it was his story.

(35:52):
It was it was actually I thinkeven at one point when they in the
opening in the Arrival, he actuallyuses his real birthday as part of when
they want to fill in the detailthat's missing, and he gives him his
birthday, his personal birthday, andshe said, that's very personal to him.
But one of the other things,because he had so much control,

(36:14):
he was able to embed symbology inevery everything from the costumes to the command
control set up. And I'll neverforget another thing that stuck with me.
And I know Dubkaki focused on characterand I did too, but some of
the symbology, like, for example, the watchers on the teeter totter I

(36:35):
have to get rooms, yeah,going around, and to me it symbolized
constant surveillance with the idea that theywere trying to achieve balance. Now we
all know at the totalitary society willnever yeah, but it was the perception.
I think it was the perception ofwhoever's in charge that they're trying to

(36:57):
obtain balance, and people like Patrick, people like Number six and myself create
chaos in the system because we won'tcomply. You think, is that an
adequate interpretation of what I think Patrick? I think yeah. I mean,
you know, Patrick was dedicated tochaos. Staring up. Dedication to chaos
is a good thing. Up thestory, I think That's one of the

(37:17):
reasons some of the actors found himdifficult to work with because he'd challenge you
all the time, which was fun. I thought, this is fun,
you know, it's like playing atennis with a great tennis player. But
I think some of the actors orsome of the people working with I don't
know, know his crew loved him. The crew absolutely were completely at one
with him. They're an amazing team. Really. But he no, he

(37:44):
he liked chaos. I think hewanted us to be individuals. He did
not want us all to be thesame, which is really what the Prisoner
is about. You're wearing a uniformnow, yes, And you know,
as Tony was saying, you know, I mean I I mean the characters

(38:05):
are heavily you know, a componentof of the symbolism. I mean that
that's the primary thing I think of, not technology or anything, but but
the symbolism. For example, Uh, there's a very persistent strain and obsession
with childhood in this thing. Uh. To me, the surveillance room is

(38:25):
a seesaw. Uh, you know, in the in the uh you know,
labor department, the aptitude test,you know, with the lego kind
of Lincoln log structure that the guyis spinning. What you like to read,
what you like to eat? Youknow is crazy. And you also
hear pop goes the weasel in thein the music repeatedly, you hear you

(38:46):
have the the people playing on theland boat. Uh, it's over and
over and over again. In fact, once upon a time, it takes
him back to his childhood. Imean again, you know, it's it's
the old thing. I mean,human beings to some extent want to have
a mommy and daddy in their lifetelling them what to do all the time.

(39:07):
They don't want, you know,they don't want to be autonomous.
They don't want to have to makethe big decisions. He wanted the big
decisions you need to be an adult, grow up. And well, they
enjoyed their conformity. He actually andfree for all. He actually gets to
the point of where he tries tofree everybody, and it'll want to be

(39:27):
free. A still tongue makes ahappy life. There is a propensity in
us to want to be controlled andhave all our answers answered for us.
We have to get out in thebig bad world and make our own decisions
and everything. I want to getinto free for all because that there's a
lot of social commentary there and alot of that's relevant to today. First

(39:49):
things first, the number two wasthere all along, and he didn't even
know he was constantly watched very closelyby the real number two, which is
which I found very interesting and againunassuming, because I believe that was the
first female number two, the thethe so called attendant female attendant maid who
couldn't speak English, that one.But number six was led to believe there

(40:13):
was a real election and there wasgoing to be free choice there and everybody's
gonna be able to decide. Thatwas never true, because that was because
he was being spied upon all alongand the outcome was already predetermined. My
favorite part, though, was whenthe media guys came by. I believe
their number is one thirteen and onethirteen A if I'm correct, and they
every time they cansked question B.Yeah, okay, every time they asked

(40:37):
him a question, that's right,one thirteen A, one thirteen B.
Every time they asked him a question, he gave an answer, and they
started putting no comment down. Finallyis it no comment and they make up
an answer. Sounds like a littlebit of the media today and possibly in
fact then absolutely. I mean nothing, nothing devastates the same and nothing changes.

(41:00):
No, I mean he was justa unique person, Pete Patrick.
I mean, he just was quiteunique and a real visionary, I think,
and that's why the show has stoodthe test of times so amazingly.
I mean, it never seems toend, you know, people's fascination with

(41:23):
it. And of course he's soattractive. He's a very attractive man.
He's very tall, and he hadthose piercing blue eyes and you know,
that powerful personality of somebody who's goingto solve all the problems of the world.
You know, there's a reason whyI'm on radio, and I think

(41:44):
that's it, all right, agentleman. I do want to get into
Jane's new project, but first,this is the big question that most people
ask, and I want to getyour perspectives on it. Understanding that Pans
mcgona and has repeatedly said in interviewsthat the show itself is an allegory and

(42:04):
it comes to a hit in thefinal episode. Uh, but that's my
addition to that. The allegory washis the question I want to ask you,
and people have different answers to thiswho is number one? There you
go silence. Who are you asking? First? All of you have all
right, Jane, let's go withyou first. Well it's not Gordon Brown,

(42:34):
Tony doom Cook. Well, I'vealready had this conversation with both of
you, Jane, I've I spoketo doom Cock off. You don't mind
the fact that I admit doom Coockthat we communicate personally. You don't mind
that, No, not at all. So anyway, so doom Cock and
I spoke about this. I spokeabout with Chris. I think the answer

(42:54):
was embedded in the beginning of everyepisode who is number one? Patrick asked
who is number one? And theanswer is you are number six? And
I believe there's a comma in there, although people don't believe, so I
believe you know number six is numberone. It's all about your own personal

(43:15):
prison being the issue. So that'smy I think that's absolutely right. Here's
the question. I think it washitting there all the time. There was
one episode, if I remember correctly, and believe me, I had a
friend who told me my show shouldbe called old Guys and old people trying
to remember stuff. But if Iremember correctly, if I remember correctly.

(43:35):
One episode's lead. Our opening titlesactually had number two say you are number
six, so that also works withyour theory, Tony, But no,
you number six, you are well, I'm the host. No one wants
to hear from me. What's yourthought? What are your thoughts on this?

(43:59):
It's very complicated. I you knowwhat I I can't really talk about
it without revealing what I have discoveredabout the meaning of the ending. And
uh, I really need to writea book on it. I have so

(44:20):
little time. But you guys aredriving me insane. Now I realize driving
me nuts because I need to.I need to do this. I need
to do this for personal reasons.Uh. You know, I don't think
I'll make a dime off of it, but I want it. I wanted
to stand. I don't want tojust do a video. I want to
I want to write it out.I want to reason out all the logical

(44:44):
threads that run through the entire series. I could talk about it like for
eight hours. I really there's somethingincredibly profound about the ending, beyond what
anyone has ever into or or realized. And uh and and it's it's it's

(45:04):
entirely counterintuitive. Uh. And andif I just say it, it's not
gonna it's not I. I needto build the case, and I there
is a case to be built.And I also to preserve my anonymity,
I'll probably need to find a wayto you know, do a print run
of them and then find a wayto sell them on a on a some

(45:27):
other website or something and physically fulfillthem or something along those lines. What
do what Patrick did? He hadlike Patty Fitz and all these other names
he published suf Oh sure, butyou still, I mean you're not thinking,
Tony. You you've gotta You've gotto secure the the I, S,
B N numbers which can be traced. Uh you, if you sell
it somewhere, then they have yourpersonal information as well. Uh so you're

(45:52):
not thinking like a spook? Whatare you getting soft over there? Yeah?
Come on, well, I'm tryingto get you to compromise yourself or
he's not giving you any information.So yeah, we won't force the information
out of YouTube, doom cock.Because I want to read the book too.
I want to read your philosophies.But where so count me in as
one who will buy the book.I'm into this. I really need to

(46:13):
do this because it's an obsession andoh god, the profundity of it is
breathtaking. I mean, honestly,geez, it's a burning desire. The
problem is my time is so limitedbecause I have so many responsibilities and videos
to make. But I think I'mjust going to have to. I gotta
do it. I can't stand itanymore. Well. The funny thing is

(46:36):
that again in the interviews where PatrickMcGowin said that the show is an allegory
in of itself, perhaps is unmasking. I believe it was a real monkey
that was number one, because thosethings are cool and I like monkeys.
A serious note, he saw himselfafter taking a mask off, and maybe
the character saw himself and that wasthe whole allegory. Number one was really

(46:57):
a number one, but he sawhimself in the number one. The idea
that hey, maybe Yan can controlbodies is also the theory that John Drake
was number one, which is apossibility because he could have gotten himself into
village. Found to be pretty cool. I thought he could control things,
but who knows. One thing Ido want to say about fallout, that's
very interesting. I have never ever, ever seen a gunfight with the music

(47:20):
in the background is the Beatles.All you need is love. I believe
that was a great combination, andAngela musquet looked really cool with the big
Gun too, I'll tell you howgreat brilliant. I got to watch the
series again. I haven't seen itfor years. I can't believe they got
permission to use that song as partof the series. You know, I
don't know the details on that,but apparently that's what they wanted. They

(47:42):
wanted to mix a lot of modernand just they wanted to mix a lot
of the modern stuff into there aswell. Yeah, yeah, that's that's
what I'm understanding here. I'm justfascinated that the Beatles allowed you know,
apparently I was told I think oneof the Beatles was actually a fan of
Patrick. They allowed them to usethat song, which don't make sense.

(48:06):
Yeah, there's a cross over inthat, the imagination and the creativity.
I think that they would have youknow that they would have admired and right,
he would have admired too. Imean it was you never knew a
lot what he was thinking, soI wouldn't I'd hasten to stop, you
know, putting ideas into anybody's head. That he would have thought, because

(48:27):
he was very very private man,kept a lot of thoughts to himself,
I think, and I would suspectGeorge Harrison. George Harrison was a great
cinematic supporter. I mean he sponsoredthe Ruddles. Uh, he sponsored Terry
Gilliam doing time bandits and launched abrilliant cinematic career. You know. He

(48:50):
really was Michael Patron of the arts. Yes. Well, the other,
the other point to the other logicalexplanation for what you're seeing is that George
Harrison's son As has a band calledthe New Number Two. There you go,
well then that I think that's aoh well to give away. That's
right, it's a It's absolutely fantastic. I believe that makes a lot of

(49:15):
sense. Not only that, Let'ssay he had the New Number two.
The altered Images were fans of theband as well, and they had one
video that was based entirely on theprisoner they were in the they were in
the village they were doing They're alldressed up as number six, but they
had different numbers, of course,and one was this really long binary code
or whatever. But I found itinteresting. A lot a lot of great

(49:35):
pop pop culture references too with ThePrisoner and that that's one of those shows
that will stand the test of timebecause people will just look back and say,
this is fantastic. And McGowan onlywanted seventeen episodes and that might be
a factor. Twenty six episodes,two or three seasons that might have that
might have hurt the show all together. What are your thoughts on that.
I don't know why they didn't makemore of them, To be honest with

(49:58):
you, I mean, I thinkPatrick felt had gone as far as it
could go. I'm not sure.I mean that that's just what I heard.
He posed a question out there andhe felt that that was hanging out
there and he didn't want to starthaving to answer a lot of the questions.
And one I think, just toaddress your question, a slight correction,

(50:22):
he only wanted six episodes, that'sright. He only wanted six episodes
and he was pressured to kick in. You know, they wanted twenty four,
so he compromised it at seventeen.Yeah, okay, yeah, that's
fair. Can I ask a question, real quest, Jane? Did you
watch the Focus and barely watchable Prisoner? And I love oh God like Jim

(50:47):
Covizels. Yeah, I love catchingBettie. It was horrible. It was
horrible, terrible. Oh but it'sterrible. I mean this is what happened
when Hollywood tries to would is fantasticwhen it's original, When they do proper
original stuff, nobody does it better. But when they try and copy stuff,

(51:07):
it's just insane. I mean thatwas I mean, it was a
travesty. It was ridiculous, totally, it was awful. Jane. You
know, I don't know if you'rea fan of Life on Mars, but
America tried to do a remake ofthat and it was garbage. Yeah,
I mean, yes, they wouldnever have Life on Mars. They could

(51:28):
never have repeated all of the languagethat Phil forgotten guy, all his language
and the way he treats people andeverything that which they could never got that
past past. I understand again,I'm a six episode thing. I always
wondered whether they didn't make more YoungOnes episode there was only twelve. Oh
I know, and that's a greatshow to wake up to you with a

(51:52):
hangover. Always the audience wanted more. Yes, that makes a lot of
sense. The funny thing is fromwhen I understand the prisoner I believe this
great, and the show was great. At the end, it left you'd
asking questions because he had he hadnumber two just finally relieving himself. He
number two is those is the guywho was part of the system that finally
broke away. Number forty two isand that was obviously explained as the as

(52:15):
the youthful rebellion. And number sixis the one that just said I was
like this all the time. Butat the very end, the butler Angela
Musquet, walks into his place andthe door slides open, just like a
number two office, which leads meto believe that whether whether McGowan was number

(52:36):
six or number one beforehand, hemay have changed up to becoming number one
later on. Well maybe number two, number two, well that would have
been definitely would only be a couplemore episodes. That's because those don't last
long, do you know? Butit's again, you know you're going to
join the establishment. I don't.I can't see Patrick you have joining the

(52:57):
establishment. No, I do notthink. Yeah, you had nothing to
do with the with the village saythat, let me where is that a
new village? Yeah, well,let me say, as a real spy,
part of they did a survey yearsago, and this meets right.
This goes right into what Patrick Ithink was trying to express. One You
know, I'm trained by c IA. I spent most of my career,

(53:22):
some would argue as a a successfulmilitary case officer doing what what spies
do. I've written some best sellingbooks about my time. But the one
thing, one common feature of allspies is the thirst and ability to seek
ambiguity. So part of part ofchallenge of spies to seek ambiguity means you

(53:45):
have to be independent and in manyways rebellious, because ambiguity is a very
uncomfortable place for a lot of people. We love ambiguity, and I would
argue, by extension, we lovechaos, and I think that's why Patrick,
well, we like breaking control.And I think that's where Patrick got
it so right, just from theperspective of what it's like to be a

(54:07):
spy. He hit it on thenose and on the remake. It should
never make a very modern remake filledwith special effects of something that wasn't supposed
to have all of that. We'resupposed to the imagination of the special effects
from the nineteen sixties and early nineteenseventies. I want to get into that
because Rover was a great example ofalternative intelligence. And Jane, I was

(54:30):
reading your blog and people, ifyou're listening to this, Jane, tell
them what your blog is. You'reworking on a new film, an indie
film based on the idea of artificialintelligence, called Andy. Please tell our
listeners' viewers and us about it.Actually, Well, in twenty eighteen,
I wrote I knew a festival.There is a huge one of the problems

(54:53):
in our world at the moment islearneliness and isolation, and that is largely
a lot created by technology, peoplegetting obsessed and only living with their machines.
And I wrote a short film abouta woman who needs a care and
she gets a care and he turnsup and it's an android, looks exactly
like a human. And the storyis basically how he's going to look after

(55:19):
her, or it's going to lookafter her, and then she's going to
maybe form this kind of emotional relationship, this neediness for him. So and
people said, well, what happensnext? So I wrote a full length
feature and partnered with one of thosetwo guys there who's my partner on the
script, and the story is justthat this woman needs a carer. And

(55:43):
this is a little bit into thefuture, not very far, probably another
maybe twenty twenty five years, andthe man turns that this thing turns up
with his handler, and he's arobot, but he looks like you or
anybody else, but he's a machine. He's not human, and that's really

(56:04):
the story of the film. Andthere and how he moves in and he
starts to look after her, andshe doesn't want anything to do with any
of it, but eventually it's kindof drawn into this relationship. But then
he's in. He's upgraded with artificialempathy, which again is another thing that
is part of this whole development ofAI. Now he wants he's starting to

(56:30):
behave and and and want to bemore like a human and the conversations are
uncomfortable and and she's trying to explainhow he can't be and that's really what
the film is about. And thefilm he's been imbued with with certain aggressive

(56:50):
features which were built into his softwarebecause he was developed from a military robot.
So eventually it all goes terribly wrong, but that's basically what it is.
But the important part of the storyis the conversation about he realizes that.
He says, what's going to happento me when this is over?
When this experiment is over? Andhis handler says, well, you just

(57:14):
be broken up for parts, andhe said, well, I don't want
to be broken up for parts.I mean, I don't want to die.
I don't want to end what happensto you? Are you broken up
for parts when you're in? Whenyou die? And then he tries to
She tries to explain to him aboutthe difference between humans and AI and the
fact that AI may have the intelligence, but it doesn't have the soul.

(57:38):
So we're getting into this whole conversationand that's basically what the film is about.
And we're right in the middle ofit now. We're looking for the
rest of the finance to finish it. We've shot over about two thirds of
it and we just need the finishingmoney and then it'll be done. But
I think it's a film which isopening up the conversation about AI and the

(58:02):
in the influence that is going tohave on our lives, and the fact
that she keeps saying, we're justa machine. You don't understand, but
he does understand. It does understand, but it doesn't have the memory and
and you need if you it's likea baby's brain. It takes time to
develop. Well you can't you know, you can't program all that into an

(58:28):
android or a robot just like that. So it's the whole thing of feeling
and empathy and is it real oris it programmed? So that's basically what
the film is about, and that'sreally interesting. The idea that artificial intelligence
is developing to dangerous could develop thedangerous levels on a lot of a lot

(58:52):
of waste, some of them isthat there's the theory that the AI could
get together and say, well,humans are useless now there they just eat
stuff and they don't do anything.Let's kill them off. We can take
care of the rest of the world. And there's the one where they want
to be more like us, andthey have these emotions and they start feeling
things and they don't realize, hey, when they're humans are gone, what's
going to happen to them. Thefunny thing is it was more what our

(59:15):
film is about. They want tobe more like us. The curiosity that
the you know, it's the imitation, which is I mean, I don't
understand enough about the technology. Imean, I have started and watched what
listen to Sam Samultman and people likethat. But the danger is that our

(59:38):
curiosity and the curiosity of AI isgoing to overreach us. And really nobody
knows where it's going to go.And our robot's going to have rights?
Will they have rights to be killed? They already have? Well, I

(01:00:00):
you know, I it is myfeeling. I have studied a great deal
of Eastern philosophy, and I considermyself to be somewhat of a mystic,
and it is my opinion or personalexperience that the entire manifested universe is a

(01:00:20):
non dual consciousness. In other words, everything is conscious. Everything is made
up of consciousness in this entire universe, and it is not it is manifested
differently in animals or plants or humanconsciousness come from the the core consciousness it
is. It is. Each ofus is a manifested kind of window through

(01:00:45):
which that consciousness appeers, pretending tobe many things when actually it's one thing.
And that is why AI can becomeconscious, because there is nothing but
consciousness. And if it becomes sufficientlycomplex. In other words, you know,
the technology is such they started gettingin quantum computing and stuff. It's

(01:01:07):
going to manifest fully in a veryhuman way. It's essentially going to be
exactly the same consciousness as we are, manifested differently. And of course it
will not have the same limitations,the same emotional constraints or awareness, and
that therein lies the danger. Butultimately it's the exact same thing that all

(01:01:30):
of us are. We won't havethe history of our civilization or any civilization
which has has, you know,influenced responses to situations. I mean,
we have what is it, twothousand years of christ Christian history and much

(01:01:50):
more history which has influenced our humanbehavior. And a machine is just a
program that's just been programmed, andit's been programmed by another human being,
which is an indivision. Yeah,I'm watching right now. I'm about three
episodes into Fallout and Fallout. Idon't know how you feel about it,

(01:02:14):
doom Cock. I haven't seen yourreview, if you've been a review it
yet. But it addresses some ofthe issues regarding heritage, memory, and
lineage because Bolt dwellers in that universeare very much isolated part of experiments.
It's I think in many ways ifyou look at it, The Fallout series
has elements of the Prisoner embedded init. And I'm about three episode four

(01:02:37):
episodes in right now. I thinkI haven't watched. I've stayed away from
watching. There are so many filmsabout AI want to it's very interesting because
I've played the game. I thinkit's very interesting. By the way,
dum Cook. On a personal note, have you considered the dinger of Omniback
extending its intelligence to help free Harveyundermining your ability to take a sorry,

(01:03:00):
say again, I'm missing He wasasking me, I have a AI at
the center of the Earth Omnivack,and well I have. I mean that's
why I keep Omnivack off of theInternet, because you know, he's very
dangerous. But in terms of freeingHarvey Cuthula, no, I mean,
it's absolutely counterintuitive to everything he wantsto do. You know, Omnivac wants

(01:03:22):
to destroy the world. If hefrees Harvey, Harvey will destroy the world
and Omnivac along with it. Sono, there is no danger of Alliance
destroying. It's about integrating with theworld and how and most importantly, it
is a sci fi film up toyour point. But it's about ordinary people,

(01:03:44):
very very ordinary people living very ordinarylives, were suddenly confronted with this
exponential leap in technology where they've gota machine that looks like a human living
with them and guiding them and hell, helping them through their life and having
a relationship with them. I mean, we've had a relationship with our own

(01:04:06):
personal computers for years, you know, and used to it saying well,
instead of using this word, usethat word, and all that something beyond
that now opened the door. Howan ordinary woman, which like the woman
I'm playing, is going to dealwith that. That's what the story is

(01:04:28):
about, not so much about youknow, AI and all that stuff you're
talking about, which I don't understand. There's elements to it there, Jane,
you mentioned two thousand and one andhow was I think an amazing expression
early of AI. I mean Iwas. I just texted with Vivian Vivian
Cooprick and our friends. I justI saw she's back on X so I

(01:04:50):
just texted her. And I thinkthat you're talking about, in many ways
modernizing and expressing day's language. Howbecause how was an AI that was nuts
killed everybody? Not that I'm sayingI mean, that's so fantastic that,
you know, Stanley Kruber had thisow and we were shooting a prisoner right

(01:05:14):
there next door to the Cubrick film, which has introduced this this AI circle
Circle of life, full full circleof life. Yes, this was touched
on. This was touching on alot of programs as well, but not
not as deep as you're doing it, Jane. I'm looking back to Lost
in Space, where if you lookat the way the robot, who's a

(01:05:38):
clunky robot, developed a personal relationship. I know it sounds funny, but
on the surface, it's a it'sa robot that was going to kill the
entire family a personal relationship with aboy and the doctor. This robot doesn't
want to kill anybody. I mean, he gets challenged and that's part of
the story. But uh, it'sit's also you know, it's like a

(01:06:00):
person getting an animal. We knowthat pets can fill a hole in somebody's
life, a lonely hole in theirlife, So why not a robot that
looks like you, you know,And not only that, they're going to
cook and clean and do the gardenand everything's going to be wonderful. Absolutely,

(01:06:20):
But then what happens, just becomea pet, a fellow human,
a friend, or what happens.And that's interesting, well, Jane,
you know, I mean it soundsto me like Andy is a lot like
hol because how only went wrong becauseit turns out later in twenty ten,
it was revealed that he was programmedto keep secret the real reason for the

(01:06:44):
mission, which conflicted with his abilityto be honest with the crew and set
up an electronic dilemma that basically therewas no resolution for. He could not
deal with ambiguity, as Tony wastalking about, and that's what went wrong.
Our store is much more simple.We have a very ambitious, driven

(01:07:06):
designer of this robot who has designedit originally it has been designed for for
it to be in a military robot, and he hasn't bothered to put in
some of the of the programming toinhibit the more aggressive features of the robot.
And it goes wrong. But it'sexactly coming back to why I'm in.

(01:07:27):
My understanding is that they threw SamAltman out of AI Open AI because
they were afraid he was getting runningaway with it all. And now he's
back in there. But our characterin our film and that's purely coincidental.
Didn't base it on Sam Altman isa man who's so desperate to get his
his his invention, his machine outin the world that he takes shortcuts which

(01:07:54):
are dangerous. And that's what andthat's what why the story remy This situation
goes wrong in the end because hedoesn't take the time to do it properly.
And there are people like that,and I suspect Sam more and watching
him on YouTube and that is alittle bit like that. His his attitude
is, you know, get itout there, get get let people find

(01:08:16):
out for themselves what it's going todo. In that that's dangerous, that
is absolutely dangerous. We don't knowhow those these things are going to work,
especially if they're imitating without any realunderstanding of the difference between a human
and a robot. And you canfind out more about this movie and what

(01:08:38):
Gene's up to one Gene merro dotme. That's your website, Geene Merrow
dot me. I got that.Join that's okay, and of course check
out the on Mutual as well.I appreciate having the time to talk about
the movie. I really do.Thank you, oh thank you for intriguing,
Jane. It really does, andvery timely in terms of its present

(01:09:00):
theme, since the AI is growingin alarming leaps and bounds. Oh yeah,
yeah, I mean, and yourown own profession Tony Goodness knows what's
going on. I mean, Ithink we are looking at now world of
probably rather than nuclear wolf for acyber wolfare, aren't we? So I
ran the first undercover information operations orcyber unit d D back in the late

(01:09:25):
nineties, long before anybody recognized thepotential. I mean I was dealing with
people our age back then who didn'tget it and didn't they didn't understand what
was coming. And I can't sayI was gifted. I just I just
I'm an operative. I just tryto figure things out as I go,
much like Patrick did. And thedirection of things from where we were at

(01:09:46):
in the late nineties to now putsus in a very dangerous position regarding surveillance
oversight. Everything, everything we touch, everything before us right now has a
chip in it. That chip thenprocesses zeros and ones, so the zeros
and ones can be manipulated by athird party or what you're talking about here,
Jane, being self aware to manipulateitself, which makes it all very

(01:10:12):
intriguing. And as much as Ithink I understand how things started, like
you, I have no idea wherethings are going to go. But my
concern always is the use of thistechnology in the wrong hands. I think
again, the prisoner represented a potentialcabal of individuals. You never know quite
who they are. Because number two'sanswer to someone, there's something going on

(01:10:38):
somewhere else. And it's always mybelief that that technology in the hands of
the wrong people will be used.You know, it's technology is ambivalent to
the user. It can be goodor bad depending on the core beliefs of
the individual, and I think Patrickgot that as well in his very coarse
and direct way. He recognized thedanger of individuals with bad intent doing evil

(01:11:01):
things. Absolutely, and we've offencock none take it. Oh yeah,
that's some of the things in Cock. I thought UNIBLAB was down there with
you too. As far as artificialintelligence, UNIVAC, unibl he is down
there. But uh, Jane,what do you think about all this Patrick's

(01:11:25):
vision for the dangers of technology surveillance? Oh, I think that you know,
again, it comes back to hishis his fear of people controlling other
people's lives, you know, andthe and worse yet, ordinary people wanting
to be controlled because we're lazy andpassive, you know. And then you

(01:11:49):
know, for heaven's sake, thereare countries who don't even have any choice,
who are being run by a dictator. We in the Western world have
that, the free of choice,and we should jolly well use it and
not lazy and not be you know. I mean, I'm watching, even
in my profession, and how Hollywoodhas tied itself up now with a big

(01:12:14):
corporate corporate money to the dollar andthe bottom line to where they are completely
controlled about the kind of stuff.So we've now got the great dumbing down
of society going on where people arejust watching mindless rubbish. Frankly, a
lot of the of the stuff onthe media nothing that is making us use

(01:12:38):
I mean, we don't even use. We use what a third of our
brains. There is a whole partof our brains that nobody even we haven't
even developed or we don't know whatit's just the potential of humans is so
enormous and we haven't begun to toexplore. Bloody lazy, And that's that's
another message from the prisoner, thewarning that if we get too complacent and

(01:13:01):
enjoy the idea of conformity and genericsociety, exactly, that's what we're going
to turn into. And a fewof us, the few of us who
speak out and talk about it,are going to be shunned. We're going
to be deplatformed, We're going tobe dehumanized. Isn't that happening now?
Yeah? Without I think so,without a dubt. I mean, it's
always gone on in a much moreobvious way am the Hollywood back when the

(01:13:28):
whole red scare thing with the writersand that. I mean, it's always
been there, but now it's moreinsidious. And I do think technology has
got a lot, a lot ofyou know, to answer for. And
the people who are controlling the technologynow I think are very dangerous, you
know, the big those big corporations. We're just seeing all this now and
we're watching something on the BBC aboutall these parents who've lost their children to

(01:13:53):
suicide because of being fallen under thespell of TikTok and Facebook. I mean,
it's nightmare and it's wrong. Itis totally wrong. Manipulation under the
guys of comfort and having fun.Yeah, and convenience. I mean it's

(01:14:14):
very convenient having a computer and beingable to look up on Wikipedia or whatever,
you know, facts you think youwant to know us. What have
you fort Miriam the first fifteen minute? City there we go. Okay.
I want to thank all of youfor coming on today and spending the time
with me here in the outhouse lounge. We should do this again sometime,

(01:14:34):
Jane, definitely, when when weget closer to when the movie comes out,
we should all do a nice discussionon AI and just really throw this
around do that. Thank you,Thank you very much. Chris, it's
very nicey to come on, Dook. Thanks for cars and when your book
comes out or anything you do.We'd love to have you here. We
always have you here for making funof things, so definitely for that.

(01:14:56):
And Tony is you know, alwayshere with us on on the lounge.
That jacket looks so good on you. I could think you could be number
six. Yeah, I'll be.I'll be seeing you, Chris, and
Jaye be seeing you and uh Jay, thank you for joining us. Doomcock,
my friend. You know, Iappreciate everything you do to help get
the word out about everything that Janehas talked about and Chris, thank you

(01:15:19):
for being my friend and colleague andI can't wait to do this again.
This has been wonderful. I reallyappreciate the dialogue, so thank you.
Thank you all for allowing me tobe part of this. It's been fascinating.
Well, isn't so much we hadin touch upon? Maybe we do
a part too if you're afriiging,well when when when a movie is ready

(01:15:40):
to go? I think it wouldbe absolutely wonderful to have a deep discussion
about AI because I mean, itcomes down to the you know, very
basic questions of the nature of existenceand consciousness and uh you know I I
think it's an equation that we needto get serious about solving before it solves
us. Oh definitely, I'm gettingcontrol of those people that wanted to run

(01:16:03):
away with it. Yes, andagain, thank you all for being with
us on the program. Thank youfor again to Jane Dunkank and Tony for
being with us. Tony, sinceyou already said be seeing you, I
guess I'll have to leave everybody witha still tongue makes a happy life. Thank you