Episode 4 - The Art of Dying - A Wings Hauser Celebration - The PM Entertainment Podcast

Episode Transcript
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Speaker 1 (00:00):
You have had the entertainment podcast.

Speaker 2 (01:01):
Hello, and welcome to an all new episode of the
PM Entertainment Podcast, The Show that Loves a wailing late
eighties Saxophone, the neon drenched grimy and CD streets of
Los Angeles and any production company that hands the reins
over to the incomparable Wingshauser and lets him throw victims
out of windows, feed booze to a bunny rabbit on
the beach, and create some sort of jazz fueled, sexually

(01:23):
charged life questioning gonzo Hollywood parody by way of a
grindhouse neo noir. I, of course, refer to the mighty
and important movie making Juggernaut founded by Rick Peppin and
Joseph Merhi, which, while known for its action hijinks and
straight to video mash up versions of the latest Hollywood blockbusters,
occasionally would allow a rare and vivid talent to turn

(01:44):
out her and cobble together a glorious, deranged and avant
garde genre film. I'm your host, John Cruss, and don't forget.
If you like the show, please remember to rate and
review us on any of the podcasting platforms you use,
share our Facebook posts, like comment, and you can contact
us via our email pment Pod at gmail dot com.
That's pm e nt pod Pod at gmail dot com.

(02:09):
This week we change our plans somewhat because, having heard
the news of the recent tragic passing of that towering,
unique talent, intense, sometimes baffling actor, and all round b
movie legend and grindhouse icon Wingshauser, we felt we had
to do a celebratory memorial episode. I have been a
fan of Wingshauser ever since I got to see Vice

(02:30):
Squad and The Little Later Tough Guys Don't Dance on
the big screen in New York City some years back.
Since then, I've collected his movies on VHS, DVD and
Blu ray wherever and whenever I found them. Here's one
of those fascinating and special performers that are at one
minute completely unpredictable and in the next frighteningly real. He
could be an action star, a dramatic character actor and

(02:51):
interesting improviser, a man wrestling with innumerable demons, and a vicious,
unwavering villain, sometimes all in the course of one film.
Watching his films always made me think ninety five percent
of Hollywood doesn't know what acting is, and all award
shows are nonsensical gibberish, because if there was any justice
in the world, Wings would have been showered with accolades

(03:12):
and cast in everything. Yes, so sadly wings Houser passed away.
It was announced on March twentieth, you know, a week
or so ago. I believe it happened a few days
before it was actually announced. Anyway, I put the feelers
out on Facebook to see what people felt and to
see if there would be any comments or emails or anything,

(03:33):
and we did get an email. We also got a
couple of voicemails, one about wings Houser, but unfortunately the
person didn't leave their names, so I don't know who
it is, but I will play the voicemail anyway. And
then we got a wonderful voicemail just about the show
in general from a mister Matt Beckett. Anyone listening to

(03:54):
the show who has also listened to my previous and
still existing podcast, The Aftermovie Diner, will hopefully remember Matt Beckett,
as he used to write in and send voicemails pretty
regularly and has told me that he's been listening this
whole time and just hadn't sent any messages in but
has now sent some audio in. So we've got an

(04:17):
email that I'm going to read out that, we've got
a voicemail. We've got a couple of comments from Facebook,
and then this voicemail from Matt Beckett. All right, so

(04:43):
first up, we have an email from none other than
mister Andy Lunn. People who have listened to the Aftermovie
Diner in the past will know mister Lunn from his
many emails that he used to send us during the
Sleazy Spader Springtime series that we used to do. And
here he is writing his very own Wings tribute. He says,
HI still can't believe that Wings has gone. Although he'd

(05:07):
been in a load of movies and TV shows over
the years, it was only having started my own PM
journey a year or so ago, And I have you
to thank for that, John, that I'd started to appreciate
the man's work. What a career he had. I discovered
whilst going down a Houser rabbit hole that he'd appeared
in both Monk and House. He'd also made four separate

(05:28):
appearances in Murder. She wrote, I'll have seen him in
all of those shows and not realized certainly worth a revisit.
My question for the show is simple, although the answer
may not be as easy. Can you give us a
handful of classic wings Houser moments which made him stand
out as a true PM entertainment star and as a

(05:48):
pretty unique character. Love the show, although sad that this
episode has to exist all the best lone. So I
feel that we go pretty deep and specific into to
some pretty unique wings Houser moments in the Art of dying,
both from in front of and behind the camera during
this episode, so I won't rehash a lot of that.

(06:11):
And then you've got Living to Die, And I think
what is probably most memorable about that are more wings
as a director and some of his directorial choices in
that film. And again, you know, the dialogue in that
movie and some of the film noir pretensions in that

(06:31):
film are absolutely fantastic. And I don't really want to
necessarily again go over every little bit in that movie,
because a I would urge you to watch it, and secondly,
we will cover it at some point on the show.
And while there are lots of standout moments, wings Hauser
watching in Delight as his aggressive gangster friend makes a

(06:52):
very angry sandwich was one of my favorites, and there's
some great action in that movie. It's probably the monologue
he does that ends with him saying to the woman
something along the night you and Jimmy Fargo putting the
bite on Eddie Mitton's where every he says some kind
of real, like hard boiled line. And then he obviously

(07:15):
told the actress to like really slap him around the
face at the end of the shot, and she really
takes her shot like she belts him across the face,
and Wings's reaction, as a lot of Wings's stuff is
is pure improv and very real. Is that That's a delight.
That's that scene, It particularly is a delight. But in

(07:36):
terms of Wings moments, I sort of think in Living
to Die, it's both some of the choices that he
made as a director and also the fact that he's
stuck with that ending. I think you just don't expect
that ending. And then but in terms of performing, I

(08:00):
think my favorite sort of Wings house a bit of
business in all of the films that he was in
for PM Entertainment, and he was in four of them,
Cold Fire, Living to Die, The Art of Dying, and
Killer's Edge also known as Blood Money. My favorite kind
of Wings hows a bit of business is actually from
Killer's Edge, also known as Blood Money. They're in a

(08:23):
porn shop that Wings claims is also a bookie joint,
and he has a sort of smaller, less fierce partner
in this movie, and the partner's not getting it done.
He's trying to question the guy behind the counter and
it's just not working out, and Wings, who's sort of
been poking around the back of the porn shop and
playing with some old computer they have on the shelf

(08:44):
or whatever, trying to say to his partner, I'll let
us handle it, like, don't call it in, don't get
a Warren, don't worry about it. We'll just handle it.
And his partner's like, no, no, no, we're going to do
it by the book anyway. While the partner's trying to
get answers unsuccessfully from the guy behind the counter, Wings
notices a guy coming from the back of the shop
with a gun. So Wings just spins around, shoots him

(09:07):
right the head, pushes his partner out of the way,
slides everything off the counter, and just goes listen to
me fuck, And the way he does it is absolutely incredible.
And then while He's like berating the owner of the shop.
Another guy comes from around the corner and without even
breaking his concentration, Wings just shoots him in the chest

(09:30):
and goes right back to questioning the shop owner. It's
one of the most goofy yet amazing yet psychotic bits
of wings house and business. I think in all of
his roles with PM. So I'll say that for now, Andy,
but honestly, I can encourage you to watch all four
of his PM Entertainment films because of all his B

(09:54):
movies and straight to video stuff, they rank very high
up there. The two Gregory Dark he did, dead Man
Walking and Street Asylum are also fantastic, and obviously check
out some of his key titles like Vice Squad, Tough Guys,
Don't Dance, Siege of Five based Gloria Mutant. Some of

(10:15):
those films are absolutely fantastic as well The Carpenter that
just got a Blu Ray release. Andy, please continue on
both your Wings Houser and your PM Entertainment Journey's So
we had a few Facebook comments. Keith McAfee said, been
trying to pick up some houses flicks on DVD lately,
but they're really hard to find. I did manage to

(10:36):
pick up a copy of Nightmare at noon, though bizarre
and strangely entertaining so interestingly to find wings Houser's filmography
out there in the wild, it's either going to be
VHS or Blu Ray. There are DVDs out there. There's
a DVD of Mutant, which is pretty easy to find.
I think Amazon has several copies, and eBay and other places,

(11:00):
and a couple of others I have on DVD. I
think Broken Bars I have as a German important a
couple of others, but most of it is either Blu
Ray because quite a few have been put out in
Blue Ray, Deadly Force, La Bounty, The Wind, all that
kind of stuff, and then most of my collection is
on VHS. So good luck with your wings Houser journey,

(11:24):
and I hope you find the movies you're looking for.
David mcstanner said, I just recently started deep diving houses films,
having only seen him in a couple of flicks before.
I watched the Art of Dying and Living to Die
recently and they were both great. Looking forward to the pod.
Thanks David, so Eric Levitt said, oh no, I loved

(11:44):
him on some episodes of Murder, she wrote, he will
be missed. Rip Wings. Justin Coffran said Rip. To a
PM veteran, Charlie Chase said, we just spoke about him
last night on the Action Elite stream. Shout out to
my friends over at the Actionally. If you're not following them,
go follow them now. He was an associate producer and

(12:04):
uncredited writer for Uncommon Valor. Rip. Yeah that's true. Yeah,
he did write Uncommon Valor. And then Jacobson Hart, who
himself wrote several of the greatest PM entertainment films, commented
and said Charlie, when I met him, he told me
he was set to play Blaster in that film, but

(12:24):
when they recast the role, he spent six months in
Mexico drinking his blues away. Rip. All right, So now
we have a couple of voicemails. The first one up
is about Wings Houser, and as I said, no one
left their names. So if when you hear this, whoever
you are, if you hear this, please write to us

(12:45):
at PM, e NT pod, pment Pod at gmail dot com,
write to us on there, or send us a message
on Facebook and let us know who it was. We
do have a great great group of people on the
Facebook page and on the Instagram page, but mostly on
the Facebook page. Who comment, who share, who like all

(13:07):
that good stuff. It's so wonderful to see it. I
try and respond to everything. Thanks so much for being
so active on the Facebook page, and hopefully that will
only continue.

Speaker 3 (13:18):
Man Wings Houser was one of the most incredible just
personalities I've ever seen on screen, per seeing him in
Tough Guys Don't Dance, which I immediately showed my group
of friends. His character Alvin Luther Regency, great triple name.

(13:43):
Just he's so manic at times and affably psychotic. I've
seen it so many times. I got to see it
on the film last year in a just wonderful presentation. Yeah,
he's meant a lot to me in a weird way.

(14:04):
And you've seen him in Vice Squad as Ramrod or
Deadly Force as Stony Cooper, which I think is a
sadly underseen movie and I wish it had done better
for him. It's a real shame, real loss. But he's

(14:25):
like an incredible body of work and I I will
definitely miss him.

Speaker 4 (14:33):
Hello John Matt Beckett here, just calling in to offer
my appreciation for The PM Entertainment Podcast, a visionary new
venture which, in its first two episodes has set and
already met such ambitious goals that it epitomizes the epigram
go big or Go Home. Each episode's wonderful combination of interviews, reviews,

(14:58):
and bullet points, he was offered a fascinating insight into,
as you put it, the PM process. The recollections of
the fabulously personable Joseph Murhey were a powerful reminder of
how important collaboration is to an effective and rewarding filmmaking process.
As mister Murrhy said in a manner reminiscent of the

(15:21):
style of the school of Roger Corman, the caterer can
have a good idea and the next thing he knows
he's directing a movie. And then to also hear from
the stunt work legend that his Spiro Rosatos was absolutely remarkable.
I've admired his coordinating and directing work combining bodies and

(15:42):
bumpers ever since the Ambulance back in nineteen ninety. His
recognition of the invaluable role of his regular collaborators I've
taken pay cuts that I could keep my team together
was refreshing. And inspirational. Both men have created a filmmaking
family around them, a repertory company producing work of consistency

(16:06):
and quality, developing, as you observed, such a distinctive shorthand
that it arguably helped to make the p M label
its own sub genre within the action movie landscape. Your
discussions with your guest hosts have also been both entertaining
and thought provoking. It was a real pleasure to see

(16:27):
the p M movies appreciated for their entertainment value without
ironic detachment. It was particularly delightful to hear Brett and
tie Barger's reflex response when you asked for some other
standout seat Tomas Howell Pictures to recommend both Tapestry films
as Kid and the Roger Corman produced Suspect Device before

(16:50):
the more commonly lauded The Hitcher. Similarly, when you and
the Dark considered the greater scope of Gary Daniel's pictures,
you both reached Cold Harvest sometime before The Expendables. And
if I might, I would like to offer a brief
honorable mention for Albert Pune's Nights, which offers, amongst its

(17:11):
many treasures, the spectacle of a Gary Daniels one on
one with a most unexpected adversary given the usual traits
and tropes of the genre. The ninety's foremost britkicker faces
off with the subject of a memorable miscellaneous plumbing fixtures anthem,
mister Chris Christofferson. Many thanks again, John for two exceptional

(17:35):
new episodes and the promise of more at astonishing speed
and no doubt involving countless panes of broken glass. I'm
very much looking forward to going along for the ride.

Speaker 2 (17:52):
I guess this week. For the last eighteen years or
more has run the YouTube channel Riot at the Movies, where,
through terrible farees and other endeavors, has championed no budget
and low budget film from around the world, shot on film,
shot on mini DV or shot on your phone. It's
all the same to him. This Toronto native is also
a writer, a film director and an actor from such

(18:14):
indisputable classics as Teddy Baum, Assault on the Snake Men
and Amiteville Outhouse. He knows all about getting it done
by hooker by crook and not judging the results too harshly.
It's the legendary Adam riot Thorn, Sir. A huge welcome
to the show, and thanks so much for doing this.

Speaker 5 (18:31):
Thanks so much for having me. It's great to see again.

Speaker 1 (18:34):
John.

Speaker 5 (18:35):
When you were on my show, we were talking highly
about Wings, having no idea that the next time we
would talk would be without him.

Speaker 2 (18:44):
Yeah, indeed, and it is sad and I have felt it,
and I have gone back and watched some of his
performances again. And as I said in that intro, you know, yes,
a man I think, beset upon sometimes by demons, but
still made for a just a compelling and I think
the word unique, I mean, I can't think of another

(19:05):
actor like Wings. I mean there's people like Michael Moriati,
for example, who has sort of similar unexpected rhythms and
and and sort of weirdly realistic portrayals. I think of
Q the Winged Serpent for specific powerhouse performance by Mariati
that I feel is similar to Wings in that regard,
but in general, not many people like Wings Houser out there.

Speaker 5 (19:28):
I always thought of, if I was to compare to
anyone that's maybe a little more known, is a young
Gary Busey, like an early eighties Gary Busey, because both
of them, like have the genetics and the shape and
the jaw line of a very handsome leading man, but
when you look in their eyes, there's something off and

(19:49):
creepy and just sort of the way that they carry
themselves or can easily change. Of course, you know Gary's
whole life would didn't turn only into that, right, but
but at his high I think there's a very similar
deranged handsome man is what that became. So you never
knew where you were gonna go with them.

Speaker 2 (20:07):
Yes, he definitely has a similar vibe to a Gary Busey.
I suppose the closest you get in a weird way
in modern times is probably a Nick Cage, just in
the sense that Nick can play, you know, multiple different roles,
you know, good, bad, weird. I think that's too easy
a comparison. It doesn't quite explain the beauty of Wings.

(20:30):
But for people who have not seen a lot of
Wings Houser films and have not dived into some of
the depths that I've dived into, then I think Nick
Cage is probably the closest. Just because people know him
to do both Hollywood movies and B movies. They know
that he stretches himself, explores different characters, goes wild sometimes

(20:53):
and other times it's quite subdued, and I feel like
Wings has that throughout his resume, those kind of things.
I do wish that he was in more, you know,
bigger movies. I do wish that we'd got maybe. I know,
his character turn in The Insider is one that is
cited a lot, but I would have loved to have
seen someone like a Michael Man or a Tony Scott

(21:16):
or someone like that hiring him, you know, some of
those directors who I think have a little bit more.
Or Walter Hill. I mean, why did Walter Hill never
cost a Wings House? And come on, now, there's the
Houser and Hill that made for each other. Surely, yeah,
I could.

Speaker 5 (21:31):
I mean soon, as you mentioned, like Michael Mann, I
had to think for a moment, was Wings ever a
random villain in a Miami Vice episode? Because he did
as much early TV in the eighties, Like he was
definitely a villain an episode of eighteen Months. Yes, So
the fact that they didn't cross pass somehow, especially in
their early mid eighties, is kind of surprising. Definitely with Hill,

(21:54):
just because of the type of people that they worked with.
Right rewatching Creature not too long ago, where it's like, oh,
he's really supposed to be a nice, good guy, but
there's still something very antihero about him. Yes, where I
could see how they on television, especially at that point
in the eighties, could have grabbed him and used there.
But connecting back to your Nick Cage comment, both Wings

(22:17):
and Nick Cage leave audiences no matter what role they do.
It leaves you with a moment where you, once the
film is over, you question how much of that was
the actor and how much of that was the character.
There's always this bit where it feels like Wings took
over at.

Speaker 2 (22:32):
Some point, oh one hundred percent, And I think that
I'm always weirdly drawn to that because it blows the
line between live performance and film. Very often, film actors
are so exceptionally good at just film acting that you're
not getting that excitement from them. You're just going, all right, okay,

(22:53):
you know, this was a well written script, this is
a well performed part, and it's well directed.

Speaker 6 (22:57):
Well.

Speaker 5 (22:57):
There's lots of stories of people talking about working with Wings,
and they always sort of give him this sort of
era of mystery where they say, like he was such
a personality, like if he wasn't like anybody else on set,
he'd be a good story or a bad story. Some
people have negatives, some have positive But no matter what
their their angle of their story of being in the
room with him, they give you this impression that he

(23:20):
is different, and so us as fans, having never met him,
we all kind of imagined that he was disruptive or
like it would be the kind of person who would
all of a sudden just turn the tables on things,
and a director would just be like, Eh, whatever, loan
do it, right, But we don't know necessarily, We just
know because people have I have a feeling people started

(23:40):
like Nick Cage again as well. People started to tell
those stories. They enjoyed telling those stories. So no one
ever went around to be like, you know, he wasn't
really that bad, right, because that wouldn't be as fun
to tell.

Speaker 2 (23:50):
We don't want to know that. Yeah, No, And I understand.
And I often think that the difficult tag that gets
stuck on people. And sometimes here's my thing about like
the whole difficult tac Right, people will still talk in
hush tones about Marlon Brando as if he was the
greatest actor of all time that ever existed ever, Right,

(24:15):
And yet for most of the movies that we know
him from and I'm talking about the movies that he
did from the seventies onwards. Right, he's taking his pants off,
he's reading lines off Q cards, he's you know, not
sometimes not even saying the line. Sometimes he's late. Sometimes
he doesn't come on set. Sometimes when he comes on set,

(24:36):
he wants to change stuff completely. He flies into rages,
all the rest of it. Yet no one ever said,
like Marlon Brando was difficult. Yet I'm always like, listen,
you're paid to do a job. Show up and do
your damn job, you know what I mean. And then
there's the story that I've told before about like Michael Kain,
where Michael Kaine will say, one minute, well, this is
a serious movie, so I'm going to show up and

(24:57):
I'm going to do a great performance. But this is
the island. I'm just here for a paycheck, or this
is the hand with Olive Stone. I'm just here to
pay for my new garage. So I'm not gonna bother.
I'm just gonna phone this one in. And that also
pisses me off because I'm like, no, no, no, no, doesn't
matter if you're being paid twenty grand, if you're being
paid twenty million, you're an actor. You're being paid to
show up and work, show up and work, you know

(25:18):
what I mean. You don't get to go like, well,
this is a B movie, so I don't care about it.
Fuck that. No, No, this is a B movie. Care
about it more than you would care about a Hollywood movie.
Because a Hollywood movie, you'll have all the bells and
whistles around you to make you look great anyway, no
matter what you do. But a B movie needs you
to show up and chew that scenery. And I'll say
this for Wingshauser and others who might get the difficult thing.

(25:39):
They showed up, they chewed the scenery, and they often
carried movies that otherwise would no longer be talking about now.
You know again, I understand that there were moments behind
the scenes where wings was not necessarily as we would
call it nowadays, on the up and up. And I
don't condone any of that behavior. But I condone someone who,

(26:00):
no matter what movie they were in, you know, showing
up and and belting it out to the cheap seats
every time, because that's what he's there for, and that's
what he's being paid for, and that's so that's that's
my uh, that's my little grant about that.

Speaker 5 (26:14):
Well, there's all sorts of preconceived notions for Wings. And
I will say this to myself, like even watching him
on the like season that he was a regular cameo
on Roseanne. Yes, he he's supposed to be just a dad.
You know, he's the girlfriend the Halloween movies dad and that,
and but you see him and they were always waiting

(26:35):
for something really negative right in the whole time.

Speaker 2 (26:39):
And it's just this.

Speaker 5 (26:40):
I mean, Roseanne in its good written days actually did
pull out some heavy handed truth in it amongst the laughs.
So it was very much when I saw him on
it and already knowing what he was like, I thought, oh,
something really bad is gonna be about his character, even
when that was not the direction. But for certain films,
like I mentioned, Creature already was one of those first

(27:01):
things I ever saw, of course, and then which Watchers
is he? Watchers watch?

Speaker 2 (27:07):
When you say Creature, do you mean Muta like the
It's cooled multiple different around the around the world.

Speaker 5 (27:16):
Yeah, yeah, his sort of zombie movie. Yeah, pretty straightforward
genre films at the time. But then the course, eventually
after seeing the cover forever seeing with a cowboy hat
and pictures and clips and seeing his eyes on the
silver cover of Vice Squad. I hitd off for so
long in my mind, I didn't know anything about the movie.
I thought it was again going to be this film

(27:38):
where he was just a rough edged cop that was
sort of a bad guy. I didn't know he was
the bad guy, yes, And when I saw that, I
was so messed up by his character. Yes, him quoting
himself too, by saying, like, just the effect that had
on people. His role in that movie is so harsh
and so evil that it made me unsecure, insecure on

(28:01):
any time he seemed to be a slightly problematic character.
It was like his like appearance in an episode of
I Think He's in more than One murder, She wrote.
My first reaction is, well, he's the murderer, right exactly,
And that's not the case.

Speaker 2 (28:13):
So as this is the PM Entertainment Podcast, a couple
of questions about your history, if there is any with
PM Entertainment. Can you remember if when you first came
across a PM Entertainment film.

Speaker 5 (28:28):
First film I can remember watching, I wasn't aware of
PM Entertainment and the whole scheme of it. But of
course is a bad movie. Lover Skyscraper came across my way,
and you know, we were all loving the hilariousness of that,
and there's so much to talk about about that movie.
So I've watched that so many times. But when I
first knew that I was going into it watching because

(28:51):
of the history of PM entertainment, a few guys from
the Toronto Film Festival had actually found some reels of
some films and founder a real hologram man, and we
watched that in a theater and we got to see
with a big crowd watching hologram Man, where nobody really
knew what they were getting into with that, only with
the warning of telling people to watch that anytime someone

(29:13):
falls off something, they'll magically be a glass table from
them to land on. Ye then to understand that perfect
ramp up of action, which then after that led me
to kind of go down a rabbit hole realizing that
now in present day with present media, there actually are everywhere.
So then I think then the next thing that was like, oh,

(29:35):
I need to see this now knowing of it would
be Firepower because you know, it's simplisticness. One Gary Daniels
and the ultimate Warrior. I may have some problems with
that movie, but as this the teenager and me jumped
back out again. I'd already maybe been thirty by that point,
but I was like, oh, sixteen year old me would

(29:55):
have loved this. How did I not know this existed
when it was happening?

Speaker 1 (29:58):
Right?

Speaker 2 (29:59):
And the fact as well that there is such this
self contained kind of twelve years of PM entertainment. They
made twelve years of movies and then stopped. And yes,
there's city Lights that come just before it, which I
think would probably be I don't know how many of
the city Lights movies you've seen, but I've seen two
or three of them, and I think they would be

(30:19):
completely up your street because they are. If PM entertainment
is low budget, city Lights is like the low budget PM.
City Lights is the run and gun shoot it without
a permit? You know, you shot on sixteen mil or
video versions of what would then, you know, fifteen twenty
movies down the line kind of become PM entertainment. So

(30:42):
city Lights is its own thing. We're not covering that
too much on the podcast right now. I kind of
want to get through the PM entertainment stuff and the
well known PM entertainment stuff. But City Lights is definitely
interesting because it's kind of the proto PM. But I
think what is interesting about PM entertainment the wild swings
that they were taking, either with their big action movies,

(31:03):
you know, ramping three cars in a city bus through
an entire wall of flame at the beginning of Hologram Man,
while John Amos and Joe Lara like firing away at
you know, vehicular madness on the highway, or in the
case of something like the film we're covering on this
episode of the Art of Dying, where they've leaned into,
as I said, the sort of neon drenched ced streets

(31:25):
of Los Angeles and given wings houses Top Blanche to
make a sort of you know, film noire meets violent
grindhouse movies. But either way, they kind of put their
money where their mouth is. They put everything on screen,
and I think have created a really interesting legacy. They're
just satisfying. They're like eighty five minutes in and done.

(31:46):
They blow a ton of shit up. They have a
charismatic leading guy. They put about four different plots together
and away we go. And there's just something about it
that just the run and gun style of it that
is endlessly charming to me compared to either the modern
equivalent or the Cannons, Vesturans and vidmarks of the world.

Speaker 5 (32:07):
Well with what we are going to talk about today
of Art of Dying, though, I even I constantly forget
it's a PM film writ because out of the I mean,
PM did release lots of stuff, and it doesn't fit
into what I immediately think of as the big explosion at
the beginning, huge caliber, lots of gunshells everywhere. It doesn't
have that, And I can't I mean as much as

(32:28):
almost everything that I've watched with Wings is a quote
unquotes action film, I can't think of Wings really ever
being in that kind of a film.

Speaker 2 (32:37):
I agree he there's always any of the movies that
Houser would make that there is always some element, some
other element than just the the action for you to
kind of you know, follow through or enjoy in the movie. So,
out of all the PM Entertainment films you watch, do
you have a favorite? Do you have or one or
two or three favorites where you're like, that's the sweet

(32:59):
spot for me of PMN time.

Speaker 5 (33:01):
I mean, I think Hologram Man is for me just
because that's kind of when I first opened my eyes
to look into it all. And it also feels like
it's paced like my favorite movie of all time Nemesis, right,
which Nemesis is this other weird Albert Pune that's somewhere
trapped in between PM and Cannon. Yes, it's like where
where did that come from? Which? And you forget all

(33:24):
the other sequels and spin offs and things, but that
first movie is so crazy and just the kid in
a video store, that that moment when teenage me found
that in a video store for the first time, and
the fact that I didn't see a holograham Man until
my thirties, but it was the same feeling. So therefore
they've stuck in there. They're like a cartoon with adult edges.

(33:47):
But if you explain it to somebody, it could be
no different than a Gi Joe episode. But then you
show it to someone who's and then they're like, oh,
g I Joe's got really messed up.

Speaker 2 (33:56):
Okay, excellent, So onto the film.

Speaker 5 (33:57):
Then, unless unless you've got the choice of having mal
the American Gladiator film that both T Force and Skyscraper have. Yes,
will always have to be in my collection. I have
a weird collection of films at Star Malibu. Okay, I
can't really explain that just a weird thing in my collection.

Speaker 2 (34:12):
See T Force to me is the better movie than
holograund I find T Force more satisfying than Hologram Mad,
but it is one of those that people go back
and forth on. I think I.

Speaker 5 (34:21):
Want T Force to be the mid nineties, right when
there was a thing called Action Pack that started Hercules
and Zena and it had all these like movies of
the nights of John Wu's Vanishing Suns at Night Rider
of two thousand. It feels like T Force should have
been in there and should have been a pilot to
a TV series where Jascalia is dealing with his really

(34:41):
low budget version of Blade Runner for the rest of
his life.

Speaker 2 (34:45):
Right while carrying around the weirdly talkative brain of his
ted ex robalpartner.

Speaker 5 (34:51):
But instead got a TV series called Was it Tequila
and Bennetti his ripoff of Turner and Hoots but the
dog talk?

Speaker 2 (35:00):
Yes, listen, I will watch. I think Skilly is another one.
I will watch him and Damna anything. He is so
charismatic and charming and T Force and deadly breed. He
carries both those like those movies are as good as
those movies are because of Jack Skilly in the same
way that this odd of dying is really elevated by Wings.

Speaker 5 (35:22):
So he's another guy that I wish people knew more
about and did more things. Laura is sort of the
loser hero in Hologram Man. The reason that it's as
comical as it is is because he's never aware of it,
and he's so kind of plastic. He doesn't realize that
he's a loser hero, so therefore he never plays it.

(35:43):
Wings almost often is even if he is a good guy,
he's still kind of the loser bad guy. Yes, but
he has an emotion for it. You witness him break down,
you witness him be angry or sad or whatever.

Speaker 2 (35:55):
I mean, his emotions. Well, we'll get into it with
this movie. But exactly there's there's, there's yes. Just like
in Hologram Man. You know, after every single action scene
it then cuts back to like the regroup and Joe
Larra was like, right, for our next plan, We're gonna
go in and do this, and then you know they
go in and do this and then fail each time.

(36:17):
There is a running thread in PM entertainment films, and
it applies to this movie we're about to talk about.
But there's a running thread in PM entertainment movies where
a character, regardless of all evidence presented to them, regardless
of them not, they don't follow any code, any rules,

(36:37):
they've not captured any bad guys, they're not doing any
detective work. There will be a character in a PM
entertainment movie will be like, he's a good cop, and
like there's always like that. They they have to have
another character reassert the fact that this person we've watched
completely being the worst cop of all time. It happens
in the Sweeper with see Thomas Howe as well, like

(37:00):
carp of all time wouldn't want him on the force
for more than five minutes. I'd take one look at
his beads, his goady beard and his silly hat and
go get get the fuck out. But but and he
beats up. Everybody beats up, everyone throws people off roofs,
everything like that, just like Howser does in this movie. Right,
and yet people are always a right and people are

(37:20):
always trying to tell people he's a good cop. I'm like,
if you think he's a good cop, We're all fucked anyway.

Speaker 5 (37:29):
And I love the actress who does that in this movie,
so whenever you want to talk about it, I could
talk about her all day.

Speaker 2 (37:33):
Yes, that's Sarah Douglas, right, yeah, yes, from Superman two.
All right, let's get into it then, all right. Our
film on this episode is the Wings Houser directed, starring
and partially written and mostly improvised by sleazy film noir
meets grungy serial killer flick The Art of Dying. It's
from nineteen ninety one. It's co written by Joseph Mayhy,

(37:53):
shot by Rick Peppin, edited by Paul Volk, and with
a maddening jazz filled musical score by Gonzales, all of
whom are regular PEM Entertainment players. Featuring the scorching and
soaring saxophone of Lon Price, who has played on albums
from such luminaries as Joan Armor Trading, Leonard Cohen, Algeroux,
Chris Christofferson, The Temptations, bab streisand and even Dwight Yoakum

(38:18):
So no slaps there. It also features the trumpet stylings
of one Rick Braun, who has released many trumpet based
albums over the years, but Pinot Noir Brass and Around
the Horn are definitely two of my favorites. And lastly
on the score there is the drum soloist David Compton,
who sadly passed away in twenty thirteen, and although it

(38:41):
doesn't mention the Art of Dying in his obituary, it
does let us know that his children, Olivia and Harrison,
weirdly share the same name as George Harrison's widow, Olivia
Harrison coincidence we will probably never know. Wings himself, as
you know, was a singer, songwriter and musician, releasing the
album's Vision of Sunshine by the band of the same

(39:03):
name in nineteen seventy and in nineteen seventy five, Houser
released an album for RCA titled Your Love keeps Me
Off the Streets, using the name Wings Living' righte spelt
l I v I n r y te, probably because
the last name Houser seemed too sensible anyway. He also
wrote and performed the Vice Squad theme song Neon Slime,

(39:27):
and his song The Old West appears in the Art
of Dying. Wings was a true Renaissance gent of the
highest order. Now, before we review and chat about the film,
It's time for the PM entertainment bullet points.

Speaker 7 (39:43):
Points.

Speaker 2 (40:00):
Okay, we have cops that are too cool to part correctly.
Immense amount of chatter about how wings Houser needs to
get laid, sawing, sleazy saxophone, upright bass and nineties neon
drenched film noir stylings. Wings gets thrown against a wall
multiple times, his partner gets stabbed. Wings throws a domestic
abuse victim out of a window and chokes out her husband.

(40:20):
Death by reenactment of Deer Hunter Russian Roulette scene man
scolded by soup, two sex workers petting a dog, old
mastachioed man in a nappy or diaper in a cart
smoking a cigarette. Gratuittus Michael J. Pollard gratuitor Sidney Lassek
gratuit to Sarah Douglas Gturita's use of wings Houser song
on the soundtrack. Psycho inspired death scene intercut with our

(40:42):
heroes in an excessively soapy bath having oral sex. A
villain called Latin Jerry saying the line, you don't think
if I kill this dick, they won't put another dick
on my case and up my ass. Death by chainsaw,
inspired by scarface death by hanging knife through the hand
and strangulation. A foot chase scored with a series of
maddening jazz is like a discordant Benny Hill sequence. Howser

(41:05):
in a deck chair feeding a bunny rabbit booze on
the beach, Kinmont and Gary Wurentz the villain fighting in
a house, rolling around a lot before rolling down a hill.
Bad guys shot in the neck, but keeps running. Foot
chase up to the roof. Bad guy shouting stop shooting me,
not stop shooting at me, but just stop shooting me,
and Howser kicks the bad guy off the roof onto

(41:26):
Rudolph Valentinos star on the Hollywood Walk of Fame, and
as he kisses his woman, a man in nothing but
a pink speedo up is but roller skates past them
and the saxophone starts to wail. While those bullet points
might not contain the usual car stunts and explosions, they
are nonetheless some of the greatest you might ever hear
on this podcast. Well, first of all, Adam, actually let's

(41:47):
do this. Give us the elevator pitch. We're going up
to the twenty second floor and you've got to tell
someone what happens in this movie in a couple of
minutes time.

Speaker 5 (41:58):
Imagine if eight Millimeter never had someone dwelling on the
disgustingness of it when you're to pitch that this villain
is basically a snuff filmmaker and a cop who's really
just working on a hangover is the one who's got
to deal with this, And you constantly forget just how
heinous and how sleazy this film is, no matter how

(42:18):
many times it tries to remind you. You're just watching
the lead going where's he gonna go next? Is he
going to go off to some other other mission? But
then we are constantly reminded of just how dark and
how seedy this.

Speaker 2 (42:32):
Is.

Speaker 5 (42:32):
It Is it the worst prostitution street in LA It
is the worst prostitution street in New York. No, it's
both at the same time. But still our hero is
charming and just working his way through until he has
some of the most awkward sex scenes he's ever had.

Speaker 2 (42:46):
Yes, indeed, that's exactly what it is. It's a but
you've got to imagine it also, as you know, I
call this movie and and in fact his other directorial movie,
Living to Die, that he did a collection of maddening
jazz is because the movie veas so wildly but also

(43:07):
at this odd leisurely paced, like it's it'll throw it
like each scene, no scene kind of matches the next scene.
You know, one minute it'll be a love scene, the
next minute it'll be a violence scene, the next minute
it will be a comic scene. Then there's a chase scene.
Like each none of the scenes really kind of flow

(43:27):
delicately into each other, but they're all enhanced both. And
the reason why I brought up the score in the
in the introduction is they're sort of enhanced by the
music of the movie, which Wings also weirdly seems in
tune with his ups and down sort of match the

(43:49):
maddening jazz is that we get on the soundtrack and
it's if this was made by like a notorious art
house filmmaker then and it would be praised to this
day as like a I think, like a weird exploration
of the dark side and the also the confused side

(44:10):
of masculinity in a weird way, like it would be
people would ponder over this movie if it was made
by you know, one of the kind of seventies New
York house set, you know what I mean. If Andy
Warhol and his factory had sort of somehow, you know,
pumped this out in the seventies, you know, starring a

(44:31):
bunch of you know, starring like a very young Denira
or like Brian Departmer when Brian Departmer and DeNiro were
making their like little independent films in high rises in Manhattan.
If if they had made something like this, it would
be pondered and thought about from all time as sort
of a deep, weird, comical, mad, violent, sexy exploration of

(44:56):
like one man's just confusion with the world he finds
himself in. And yet it's all done through the eyes
of as we're talking about, a PM entertainment movie. So
what's funny about this film is that throughout the movie,
it keeps trying to be a entertainment film, and Wings

(45:17):
Housing keeps going no, no, no, no, no, no no, We're
not gonna do that. I'm gonna lie on the a
deck chair and force feed my bunny rabbit, which doesn't
appear in any other scene alcohol while Kathley Kinmont rides
about on a horse. This is just gonna happen, and
you're gonna have to deal with it. Meanwhile, they're over
there going, oh, we've gotta put a foot chase on
a car crash in here at some point. So it's

(45:41):
I find this movie endlessly fascinating. I don't know what
take we're gonna kind of come at it from, but
I feel like whatever angle you approach this movie on,
it's gonna upturn your expectations.

Speaker 5 (45:53):
I feel like the biggest part for me that sort
of explains the sex and sexuality and lack of at
the same time is how Wings can be in this
world that's constantly about sex and sexuality, like about people's
different identities in there. There's a scene where he'll say
a bunch of things that is very questionable about sexuality

(46:14):
in general, but he seems to not be aware, and
it doesn't that's not his problem. That how a movie
can be that sexual and then the next scene can
just sort of wipe it off like it wasn't there,
so that they can be ready to just do it
again in the next scene.

Speaker 2 (46:29):
They're right, I mean, in one of the most sort
of I think it's both a very obvious juxtaposition, but
at the same time, I can't think of another movie
where I've seen it done this well, and if like
and DePalma, if DePalma ever watched this movie, DePalma would
be like screaming at the TV and being like, why
didn't I think to do this? There are two men,

(46:52):
one of whom's a filmmaker, one of whom is sort
of his pimp friend who goes out and finds young.

Speaker 5 (46:56):
Girls a great name Latin Jerry Latin Jerry.

Speaker 2 (46:59):
Both of whom in a relationship with each other that
clearly lovers or at least in love with each other,
and in fact, the leading guy, the filmmaker, says as
much towards the end of the movie. Latin Jerry goes out,
finds girls on the street, brings them back. They reenact
scenes from other movies, and then there's some others that
are not really based on anything, where they just hang
women upside down.

Speaker 5 (47:19):
Yeah, the random hanging, which is maybe one of the
darkest things because that's that scene hays no connection to
anything else in the film. It's just another excuse to
see him with a camera acting like an OH tour
watching a death scene which feels like it's out of
a shot on video video violence movie, and again just
leads to the amp up. It's about three quarters into

(47:40):
the film, so it needs to amp up that he
is creepy and he is evil. Yeah, so we don't
feel for him, which again we'll get into because it's
sort of a spoiler getting to the end. It's weird
how maybe they're hinting to the relationship between the two
villainous characters, but then they just say it so that
you're don't worry about it anymore. Well, it feels like

(48:02):
an interesting way to handle it.

Speaker 2 (48:04):
And yeah, there's also an interesting thing. And let me
just because I was building up to so there is
a scene in the movie where the guy is the
filmmakers killing a woman in the shower. Imagine the most
grindhousey and exploitation version of what Hitchcock could ever have imagined.
That is then very obviously juxtaposed with a wild Kathleen

(48:27):
kinmont orgasm as wings Houser pleasures her orally in a bathtub,
which is the most polite way I can put that,
I suppose, and I've.

Speaker 5 (48:37):
Got out a shot for that whole thing.

Speaker 2 (48:39):
So, and let's not forget like Paul Volk, who edited this,
definitely had a hand in this particular sequence, which is
by far the standout. It's both the most bizarre and
by far the standout kind of sequence in the center
of this movie, obviously, we see Katain kim On set
up on the edge of the bathtub. She says, now
it's my thirty minutes whatever. We'll get into their sexual

(49:01):
relationship in a minute. But she goes, it's now thirty
minutes to do whatever I want, So you've got to
go downtown, and we just see Wing's head kind of
disappear between her legs. They cut back and forth between
her orgasm and the death throes of the woman in
the bathtub, so that I just wanted to kind of
explain that sequence. But going back to what you were

(49:22):
saying about the villains, what is and also about the
sexuality in the film is what's very interesting is the
sex scene that culminates with that bathtub scene, but starts
way earlier. It's like all it's like the second act
of the movie is just them having sex intercut with
whatever the villain's getting up to, because they apparently spend

(49:43):
the whole day doing it. The scene in the kitchen
couldn't be like less erotic if it tried. It is
It is so jarringly unerotic and unloving, despite the fact that,
as the movie goes on, we're meant to believe great
love affairs unfolded between these two relative strangers. Kathy kim

(50:04):
On and him are strangers who have met, who are
hooking up repeatedly, but they don't know much about each other.
And when you look at that compared to the scene
where the film director shows Latin, Jerry's having a terrible
time because they've stuck his picture up all over town
and he can't go anywhere, and he's all upset and
he's stressed out, and he's worried he's going to get arrested.

(50:26):
And they're sitting watching as much of the film that
the director has edited together, and he goes, I don't
normally show my work until it's finished, but you're in
a bad mood, so let me show it to you.
And they both sit there. It's a really touching scene
in a really weird way. They both sit there, lit
up by the glow of the film projector, and it

(50:47):
just slowly zooms into their face, and as they're watching it,
you can tell they are both so in love with
the film they are producing. They're so amazed that they're
able to create this art. And then they just touch hands.
Latin Jerry's hand comes down over his shoulder and he
just reaches up and touches Latin Jerry's hand. And it's

(51:10):
this weirdly poignant artistic moment because as filmmakers, you and
I can relate to that, like we can relate to
putting on a film that we know no one else
cares as much about as we knew, but that we
will bask in the go of in our own quiet
little room and think to ourselves, I've done something that

(51:30):
makes me feel good. I can relate to that scene
a lot. And yet it is these two murderers watching
a snuff movie, yet the way it's filmed is way
more loving and romantic than anything that happens between Kenmont
and Houser. It's weird, right.

Speaker 5 (51:47):
It's probably one of the biggest tension moments of the
film when the two of them are semi consoling each
other as will they get caught as being killers. It
also slightly shows which one of them is in charge.
Is the filmmaker himself is the true kind of more
evil of the two. But when they touch each other

(52:10):
as or watching it, I'm also worried for Latin Jerry
at that point because I think that his partner is
going to kill him at that point, throughout him or something,
and like as if he's like tricking him with the
emotion because of how psychotic he is to the rest
of it. It's so misleading that he's showing emotion in

(52:30):
that scene, which the fact that it stays just as
emotion is also a kind of an interesting trick because
you could think it either way. Either way, you're waiting
for something to happen, and the lack of something happening
there is actually probably a good thing because it leads
you confused about where do these characters stand and what's
about to happen next to them.

Speaker 2 (52:48):
Oh, that's really interesting that you watched it that way,
And I totally see how you could see it that
way that you're like, oh, is Latin Jerry next as
the director whose name is Roscoe played by Gary Went
Is Roscoe going to off Latin Jerry because he's become
a liability?

Speaker 5 (53:06):
You know that it's the leaning behind him at least
that you would think is it because of how kind
of just sort of stoic faced and creepy he is
is he leering or is he holding him? It leads
you to make your own direction on that. But yeah,
as you said, I could see it either way.

Speaker 2 (53:21):
No, no, definitely. I think what I watched this again
last night, and I think what I loved about it
was the fact that there's, you know, these two actors,
Mitch Horror and Gary Wodz. They convey on their faces
to me anyway, they convey on their faces the look
that I would have when I watched something that I've

(53:41):
either been in or I've made, or the look or
the look that I have when I'm listening to a
song that I'm quietly proud of. I'm never openly like, yeah,
I did a great thing, but there's always like a
little when I do something that's just ever so slightly
better than what I normally do, which is normally fairly
rough around the edges, there's that little bit of me

(54:02):
that just kind of goes, oh, that's that's nice. And
they kind of conveyed that in a way to me
and I it's odd that you feel like a kind
of sweetness towards these guys who are horrible fucking murderers.
I mean, the murder scenes are not pleasant. They don't
shy away from gore and violence and extremities at all.

Speaker 5 (54:25):
And the fact that they're finding some sort of emotional
connection by watching that terribleness makes it even worse. It
borderlines on if someone said, oh, what if George Scott
was just sitting in that theater and he just stared
for a longer time at the screen and then said
she's doing.

Speaker 2 (54:39):
A good job.

Speaker 5 (54:40):
Oh the film ended that way.

Speaker 2 (54:44):
So yes, It's also one of those things where, you know,
I think a lot of people would right wings Houser
off as sort of one of those seventies, eighties nineties
guys who are a little problematic with their opinions. What's
interesting about is that the more you learn about and
the more you discover about it, and the more you whatever.

(55:04):
Is that actually, while he brings it up a lot
in his films, you know, he has he had in
this movie he has a comment about like, well, maybe
I'll go gay. Then he says to Kinmont, maybe I'll
go gay and I'll become a traffic cop and I'll
fill out tickets with my little pink pen, which I
think is such a wonderful like ridiculous rant to go on.
He's just going on this ratt.

Speaker 5 (55:25):
That being the scene where she rides away on a horse.

Speaker 2 (55:27):
Right, a horse out of nowhere, Yes.

Speaker 5 (55:31):
Pulls out the handcuffs and he says, haycuffs, can't we
just have sex like straight people? Which maybe that was
supposed to be in their mind that Oh, that's a
that's a hint towards the villains. We got to mention
homosexuality because no one would have seen that coming. No
one else but us are progressive.

Speaker 2 (55:52):
Yeah, no, and I think, but it's interesting because I
don't think wings Again, there's a lot of like sexism
in the movie to some extent because he's sort of
rambling about women. But first of all, if you've ever
heard him interviewed, and also if you've seen any of
the other movies that he's done, and also some of
the movies that he would then later on in life
try and make. There are some movies that he tried
to make that he never got off the ground or whatever,

(56:13):
and even a couple that he made after he did
directed PM Entertainment. All of them actually tend to be
fairly socially aware in a weird way. I'm not going
to say that he's not rough around the edges and
that he doesn't have that seventies eighties mentality completely, because
there is part of that. But what's interesting about his
sort of rants that he goes on in the art

(56:33):
of dying, and indeed the sort of the Kathleen Kinmont
relationship push and pull that goes throughout the movie, where
he's wrestling with the idea of, like, I really like
this woman, but she just keeps showing up. We have
this torrid affair, and then she leaves, and am I
jealous that she might be with another guy? Is she
with another guy?

Speaker 7 (56:52):
Like?

Speaker 2 (56:52):
She tells him that the horse that she borrowed is
actually from a dude down the street. We only find
out at the very end of the movie that actually
she rented the horse, which is almost more bizarre. I
don't like the idea that Kathy kim On has just
been going along beachfront properties and sleeping with guys and
borrowing horses makes almost more sense than her renting a
horse just to show up at houses beachfront property.

Speaker 5 (57:15):
But Okay, there's a level where she seems like and
I think my brain thought this the very first time
I saw it because the first time we meet, or
they meet each other, I don't really know if they're
acting or not. It sounds like they've met maybe in
done this before, and this is role play because they're

(57:35):
threatening each other. So but if you were to tell
me that no, that legitimately that first scene where she
shows up at his house and is holding him up
is real, I would still believe it because it doesn't
make any more or less sense than their whole relationship,
where part of it feels like she's a figment of
his imagination because they never she never interacts with until

(57:56):
very later on does she interact with anyone else. Like
this is his weird drunken escape into his house with
this mystery woman who he admits he does not know.
We discover he knows nothing about her yea, and when
she does tell who she is, that could also be alive.
Because none of it really matters to him. He laughs
it off, He just goes with it, grumbles a little

(58:19):
bit because he's grumbling wings, and then just still jumps
into bed. Anyway.

Speaker 2 (58:24):
But that's what I mean. It's sort of what's interesting
about this movie is outside like it keeps trying to
be a serial killer movie, and it keeps trying to
be a detective movie. But I think the movie that
Wings wants to make is a very personal, self exploratory
kind of movie where he's constantly at odds with everything.
He's at odds with what the nineties are gonna be.

(58:46):
Like he keeps talking about, like if this is gonna
be the nineties, Like what the hell you know? He's
at odds with.

Speaker 5 (58:51):
This was rough enough for the men in the sixties
and seventies. I hate to see what's gonna happen to
men in the nineties. I think it's this one quote
as many drunken sitting on the beach scenes.

Speaker 2 (59:01):
You have this somewhat like progressive, sexually adventurous woman who
sees past all his faults and tries to explain that
her sexual adventurousness can also be seen as romantic, even
though he's resisting it and only seeing it as its
sexual design kind of thing. So there's all this like

(59:23):
he's trying to figure out, like like you like she
does role play at the beginning, and then she's talking
about sex toys and handcuffs and things like that. But
then at the same time they have this weird argument
in the middle of the movie where he's bought her
a lovely nightgown. She comes in wearing this sexy nightgown says,
look at me, look at me. He because he's going
through some paperwork on his bed or whatever and smoking

(59:45):
cigarettes and things. It's just like, oh, I don't have
time for this right now. She then gets mad that
he bought her the nightgown even though she came walking
in dressed in it. She then says something along the
lines of like, well, sex toys and Neglige is not,
you know, romantic, even though she's the one that's been
pushing the sexual progressiveness of the relationship. He then says,

(01:00:07):
what do you want chocolate? So she's like candy would
be nice, and he's like, I suppose flowers as well.
Then she's like long stem, you know, I know roses,
I suppose and she's like longstem. So it's this weird,
interesting thing where he's trying to tell this. There's almost
this Chasing Amy style story throughout the middle of the movie.
The original Chasing Amy story because Kevin Smith wrote it

(01:00:30):
about a lesbian, but the original story was that he
was a naive man dating a sexual adventurous woman and
couldn't keep up. That's what Kevin Smith based the original
story on. And it's interesting that sort of the Wings
House at Kathy Kinmont thing is like she wants a
romantic relationship, but she's also like sex positive and sex
forward and sex progressive. He wants a romantic relationship, but

(01:00:53):
he's also a drunken cop on the edge who doesn't
want to be held down or whatever. And there's this
fascinating like push and all throughout the whole movie that
is almost an entirely other movie. It's got nothing to
do with the serial killing that's going on. It's got
nothing to do with any of the detective work or
lack thereof that he does, because all his detective work
is either done by Michael Pollard or is just incredibly fortuitous.

(01:01:16):
He just trips over Latin Jerry at a restaurant, want
even throw soup on him, like it's just all of
it is sort of very slap dash, and like I say,
tied to, it's very important to me that the score
not be missed at all because I feel that, like
Jazz and like Wings propensity for improvisation, I feel that

(01:01:37):
this movie because he is the director, because he did
improve a lot of scenes. Because, as I say, there's
this like they're trying to make it a PM movie
and Wings is trying to make it this kind of
experimental jazz movie that there is. I think that there's
an do you know what I mean? There's a connection
there with sort of the musicality of the movie and
the randomness of the scenes. I don't know whether I'm

(01:01:58):
being too pretentious about it, but I kind of want
to be. I kind of want to give Wings his
artistic jude, you know what I mean?

Speaker 5 (01:02:04):
Well, because it's playing off old stereotyped characters of the
smoking gun, drunken cop with the vamp woman who comes
into the office, and it's all mysterious, except that then
it lets these characters live out a life that they
wouldn't have in those films, because the scenes that he

(01:02:25):
has with her are so big that, as you said,
it could be its own story and its own because
so little of their scenes and their relationship actually affect
anybody else in that film. That if in that scene
that's the petty argument about the flowers and the candy,
that seems like he's just taken from an argument he
had at home and then put it into the film

(01:02:46):
because it feels like it's there's so many more dimensions
to their relationship, but again does not really affect the
rest of the main plot because it was it felt
like he was writing something else. But there's also good
or bad of you like it. There's so many throwaway characters,
which is where I feel like you're witnessing a man
who has separated himself from reality because he walks in

(01:03:07):
and out of these people's lives and in so little
of what happens to them. Near the very end, when
he realizes this woman that he has been telling himself,
I'm just a man, I'm just having sex with her,
and no I love her. That's that's his twist, I
guess to himself. That's the one true motion that he
kind of has. He does get very upset because of

(01:03:28):
the young girl that he wants to help when she
falls victim to all of this, But I feel like
as a setup, as in I wonder how first writing
drafts for things let these go because he's introduced to
so many actually good characters, but it doesn't affect him

(01:03:48):
until sort of the end. His partner that he has
at the beginning, they seem like they could have been
a whole film together.

Speaker 2 (01:03:54):
Oh, I would have loved that. Yeah, they're great together.

Speaker 5 (01:03:56):
Yeah, he's much more upbeat, So I think the first
time I saw at the beginning of it, he's very
like whitty and into it, and whence a terrible thing happens,
he still jokes it off like a like an eighties
cartoon hero. And but then, so my thought when I
first saw that, I thought the accident that happens at
the beginning of the film with his old partner, who

(01:04:17):
sadly we have no reason to see you again, which
is too bad because she's a.

Speaker 2 (01:04:21):
Maze so good. Yeah, and then but.

Speaker 5 (01:04:24):
What happens in that scene where he accidentally kills somebody
in a scene.

Speaker 2 (01:04:29):
Let's be very clear, they go we can go back
to the beginning of the movie for a minute to
talk about this, because it because it's a again. This
adds another layer of fascination to the movie that we
haven't even got to yet, which is sort of the
police characters or whatever they are, the Michael Pollard, Sarah Douglas,

(01:04:50):
and his partner at the beginning, who you said was
played by Mary bon Davis, Right, Yeah, as Jesse. Yeah, so,
and and where I sort of think that, you know,
the PM Entertainment movie that otherwise would have been made
is You're right. The Cup on the Edge, you know,
has an accident at the beginning of it that he

(01:05:10):
can't quite reconcile. Because of that, he desperately tries to
save everyone he comes across. He fails to save some
women who are murdered by this serial killer. He goes
off the serial killer. There's some action sequences the end,
like that's that's the movie. It's trying to make it.
Maybe along the way he has a girlfriend and we

(01:05:31):
had sex with but you know, so they get some
boobs in the movie, but essentially that's the movie they're
trying to make. And Wings is like, all right, I'm
gonna film no wire it up a bit, you know
what I mean, I'm gonna I'm gonna like you. There's
certainly the opening of this movie, with the saxophones and
the shots over La and whatever, could quite easily be
in black and white, you know what I mean, Like
they could quite easily sort of be in this But

(01:05:54):
there are some things in the opening that I absolutely adore.
First of all, the old eighties and nineties trope that
we just accept at this point. You're cool if you
can't park your car properly, if you just pull up
and just leave your car wherever it is. Just you know,
I'm not gonna bother parallel parking this. We haven't got

(01:06:14):
time for that. I've got to get out and I
got to throw people out of windows and eat hot dogs,
you know what I mean. So he just pulls the
car in, leaves half of it on the bulevard, the
other half in the parking space. I love that. I'm
too cool to park the car properly. And then they're
on their way to this domestic abuse thing. We hear this.
We see this apartment where people are like bitching and
moaning out of the windows and throwing glasses and water

(01:06:36):
over each other and generally just being crazy. He goes, ah,
fuck this, I'm going to get myself a hot dog
while I have like a back and forth about again
about sex. The whole opening conversation is about sex between
him and Mary Davis, who's sort of saying no, no,
only there's another word. She is a sexually progressive woman.
She openly admits she like fucked the football team and

(01:07:00):
it's perfectly comfortable with doing so, et cetera, et cetera. Right,
and like she's very like, yeah, I'm not a there's
no slutshaming in this movie. Everyone's very like sex positive
except wings Houses. But they're talking about this. She's saying,
you just need to get laid, you just need to
get this. And there's no hint from him that he's
going to tell his partner about Kinmunt. And when we

(01:07:21):
meet kin Mount later, he does say she's back, so
there is an implication that maybe they've done this before,
you know what I mean, So he doesn't mention her
to her partner, like you say this move. This opening
seemed to be from a totally different wings Houser movie.
They go up into the apartment building. We see an
apartment in disarray with a with a big, brutish guy

(01:07:44):
screaming at a woman and a woman screaming at him back.
Wings comes in again being fairly benevolent, being like, oh,
you shouldn't hit women and you should treat women with respect.
You know, he's trying to be all nice and everything else.
The next thing I know, everyone's throwing each other against walls.
Like everyone everyone's just fighting each other in this apartment.
The big guy literally picks Wings up widthways, which considering

(01:08:06):
Wings is what six' three or something like, that it's pretty,
impressive throws him or a stuntman against the wall and
in the. Kerfuffle so essentially the patna is trying to Arrest, oh,
no is it The wings is beating up The british.
Guy she the wife, goes don't you beat up on my,

(01:08:27):
man runs him with a knife and accidentally stabs right.

Speaker 5 (01:08:31):
After he gets thrown into the. Wall Right wings is,
down so she runs. In the partner runs in us
and it looks like she's grabbing him by the nuts
or something because he's the big guy's screaming as the
woman partner pins him against the. Wall you can only
assume what she's. Doing and added, nowhere the abused wife
stabs the female cop because she's like, reaction you can't,

(01:08:53):
fight you can't hurt my white trash, husband even though
she was seconds ago Saying i'm going to see you.
Burn and that's When wings jumps in grabs. Her gravity
gives up because like one that man has already picked
up and Thrown, wings which seems impossible, yeah and then
by wings basically grabbing her by the shirt and throwing

(01:09:13):
her to the. Side she then turns right in the air.

Speaker 2 (01:09:17):
And flies straight through a. Window, yeah it's completely bizarre,
because AS i, say he came to break up a
second you, know an abuse. Victim he you, know he
says you shouldn't hurt. Women the woman then goes, insane
and but this. Comes you, know we've all seen this
On Jerry springer or one of those shows where like
one minute they're fighting and the next minute they're crying
and making up and. Whatever it's it's sort of a

(01:09:39):
usual kind of cycle of abuse that tends to go
back and forth between men and. Women so it's not
unrealistic that she would be mad when she saw her
abusive husband being beaten. Up BUT i don't know that
you would run at someone with a. Knife but all,
right it's A pm. Film so she runs at the
poser with a knife stabs. Them, yeah heat of the,
moment and, we, like you, say JUST i don't even

(01:10:01):
think he grabs her. Eye he grabs her, shirt like her,
shirt but then he just like flings her shirt. Back
she goes running off the, screen and the next thing
we see is a shot outside the apartment building and
her flying through the window and sailing through the air.

Speaker 5 (01:10:17):
Straight superman pos straight out the.

Speaker 2 (01:10:19):
Window, Yeah and it's one of those. Things there's you know,
that there's a there's great moments In Perman sam films
where people just sort, of you, know run through windows
and you're, like it's that's not really how even thin,
windows you know WHAT i, Mean like they would stop.
You you. WOULDN'T i, mean you might break, them but
you wouldn't fly through them as if they didn't. Exist

(01:10:42):
you know WHAT i mean is if they weren't.

Speaker 5 (01:10:43):
There Unless wings has the power Of. Superman he does like,
that which obviously he does for that fleeting moment in the, film.

Speaker 2 (01:10:51):
For that, sequence AND i presume arrests the other guy.

Speaker 5 (01:10:54):
After putting him in some big sleeper hole like a.

Speaker 2 (01:10:56):
Wrestlers, yeah he chokes him, out and then they squirrel
away his partner and we never see her, again which
is a BIG i think if there is one big
shame about this, film it's THAT i would HAVE i
would have liked more of her as it is what
we get back at the police, station AND i know
you wanted to talk about, this So i'm happy to

(01:11:17):
hap to tee it up and hand it over to.
You but we Get Sarah douglas And MICHAEL. J. Pollard Sarah,
douglas who is doing what exactly in the police. Station
what is her?

Speaker 5 (01:11:30):
Role she's sort of kind of as if she's his,
superior but there's someone else to be a superior to
yell at him. Later where she exactly fits in, There
i'm not one hundred percent, sure but she, is as
we mentioned, earlier that needed character that can come in and,
say but he's a good. Cop his records show no

(01:11:50):
matter what terrible things he's done consistently through this. Movie.

Speaker 2 (01:11:54):
Right what's weird is she's almost you, know the blonde
woman In Lethal weapon who's in loads Of Richard donnod
Movies And i'm, SORRY i don't know her, name but
she shows up all the time and to go Like,
riggs you need more help and. Whatever she's like the
police psychiatrist or, whatever.

Speaker 5 (01:12:09):
And the mom for Both goonies And Monster. Squad, yes,
yes she's.

Speaker 2 (01:12:16):
Fantastic by the. WAY i just WISH i knew her,
name but she's in tons of. Stuff, Yeah Sarah douglas
in this movie is like the opposite of, her so
she's like the woman in the police precinct actually really likes.
House in fact that they've even have like a flirty
back and. Forth you even imagine that like If kinmon
sort of dubbed his, ass he'd be, like, oh it's all.
Right even though she's. Married they're kind of doing a

(01:12:38):
lot of like maybe we go out for dinner and
back at your place and all this sort of, stuff.

Speaker 5 (01:12:44):
Which is an interesting thing because it sets up that
there is a. Backstory but his first partner that we,
see even that we don't get into, it they have
a relationship of some, sort so they've obviously done this.
Before they know each, Other they're comfortable with each. Other
he knows, her there have some sort of, past maybe
at one point she was at the same sort of
level that he, was or. Whatever who, knows they, Don't

(01:13:05):
it doesn't. Matter it's just to show that he's a
real person with real, relationships no matter how terrible he
is with.

Speaker 2 (01:13:12):
Relationships it also, feels and this happens a little bit
in the beginning Of Maximum force as, well where they
kind of Crowba Mickey rooney into the. Movie it does feel, like,
well we've Got. Pollard we've Got Sarah. Douglas you, know
we can get. Them let's get them and put them
in this film and just like figure it, out you

(01:13:34):
know WHAT i. MEAN i don't feel Like Sarah douglas's
character is hugely fleshed.

Speaker 5 (01:13:38):
Out, No she's definitely there to just fill that role that's. Needed,
Yeah i'm trying to think like where her career goes
as A b movie. Fan she has a great list
of it other than being the sexy villain In superman, two,
RIGHT i, mean she's In Pupa master three And return
of The Living dead, Three so she's already like A

(01:14:00):
b genre, actress but she obviously has some sort of
a little bit More hollywood quality than some of those
people that she's worked.

Speaker 2 (01:14:08):
With, no, true and she. Does what's what's interesting is
that this is not the last time she works WITH.
Pm she does show up on an episode Of La,
heat which would be THEIR tv. Series she is An english,
actor so she does spend her time BETWEEN b movies
AND tv series In, america but she she spends her

(01:14:30):
time between doing that very kind of Glamorous american work
to then winding up in things Like Emmadale, farm which
is a up North british soap opera where a lot
of people sit around and talk about churning butter or
whatever it is they ailing.

Speaker 5 (01:14:45):
Cows.

Speaker 2 (01:14:46):
Yeah she's also In Holby, city which is sort of
The british version Of, er which is as cheap and
ridiculous as that. Sounds, wow she did a lot of part.
Threes she's In Chained heat put.

Speaker 5 (01:15:00):
Three oh, right, yeah.

Speaker 2 (01:15:01):
Hell, mountain because of course there's A Chained Heat part.
Three why wouldn't that make?

Speaker 5 (01:15:08):
It Doesn't it's not like it has to connect they
it's you, know there's so many movies that are sort
Of Chained, heat so what does it?

Speaker 2 (01:15:13):
Matter oh and do you know who else is In
Chained Heat part? THREE i might have to watch this.
Movie Jack scalier is In Chained Heat part three WHERE
pm world's.

Speaker 5 (01:15:22):
Collide yeah again one of those things where the some
casting agency must be the same, Person they must be
on someone's same.

Speaker 2 (01:15:30):
Rolodex. Yeah and what About MICHAEL. J? POLLARD i, mean
what a what a weird career that gentleman's? Had and
want to generally like if there was gonna be a
documentary about SOMEONE i would love to watch A MICHAEL.
J Pollard, documentary BECAUSE i have no idea if that's really,
him if that's just the performance he always puts in,
movies like what's what's With? Pollard because he's a little

(01:15:51):
out there.

Speaker 5 (01:15:52):
And he's never really that. Different AM i just mistaking mixed?
Characters or is he not also one of the lack
he's In Hologram, MAN.

Speaker 2 (01:16:03):
I don't know if he's In.

Speaker 5 (01:16:04):
Holloga it's just another one with another, scientist has another
lackey beside, him and he's just, Like i'll do. It
he's kind of like almost an igor and a lot of.

Speaker 2 (01:16:12):
Things, yes he is THE q in the third act
Of tango And. Cash he's the one.

Speaker 5 (01:16:21):
That builds there the crazy car thing.

Speaker 2 (01:16:25):
Attacks the once Once tango And cash just goes in
the third, act just goes completely off the, rails And
Sylvester stallone is just writing what a garbet gook comes
into his. Mind he's, like, well of Course i'm gonna
have a special car with a mounted gun on, it
and you know we're gonna Attack Jack, palance who has
a maze full of, Mice like what's going on in that?

Speaker 5 (01:16:46):
Movie but when he's no longer taking scenes from the
first police story. Film, yeah, exactly but not THAT i
don't Love tango And CASH i, do but, right but.

Speaker 2 (01:16:55):
No, yeah he's known For bonnie And, Clyde tango And Cash, Rouged,
yeah And house of A Thousand. Corpses those are the
ones that sort Of Apollod's big four according to as
well AS.

Speaker 5 (01:17:07):
I, believe also the voice of the lackey of the
main villain In Toxic crusaders The Toxic avengers KIDS tv,
show he Plays, psycho, right and he just always sort
of tells you the plot randomly in the middle of
the movie in case you forgot every.

Speaker 2 (01:17:23):
Episode, oh he's in split second as. Well he's in
split second for a moment With, rukahoua another FAVORITE b
movie of, mine.

Speaker 5 (01:17:33):
And he is at the same point kind of a
guy who could easily be mixed with a bunch of
other slightly character actors of that, time which is Why
i'm trying to, think who's the guy with the creepy
belt buckle in Sleep Away camp? Three that is also? Him, Right, okay,
yeah he's, yeah it's him having a scene where he's

(01:17:53):
trying to be sexual with a young woman of that
scene is probably one of the most uncomfortable things you'll ever.

Speaker 2 (01:17:58):
See it, is and if you Sleep Boy camp, one
you can't imagine it getting more. Uncomfortable but you, know
Sleep Boy camp three is, like, oh we're just gonna
throw pol out in, there and he's gonna try and
have sex with a. Child yeah not a, child you, know,
teenager BUT i mean, Listen i'm in my mid. Forties

(01:18:18):
anyone under thirty as a, child.

Speaker 5 (01:18:21):
Right, yeah either, way it was creepy and he HAD
i just remember he had a hologram cowboy belt buckle
and he's, like you want to see where the cowboy?
Go is something really. Creepy, yeah BUT i quite.

Speaker 2 (01:18:32):
LIKED i quite liked after the second, one which is
really just Where Bruce springsteen's sister just kind of kills
people in a. Row, RIGHT i quite liked that the
third one tried to bring back some of the uncomfortable
nature of part. One.

Speaker 5 (01:18:46):
Yeah, Oh i'm actually quite a fan of that. One
and Wish Paymeless springsteen did more. Things he's only done
a couple of fun. Stuff but she she had.

Speaker 2 (01:18:56):
Chops she did have, Chops she really did. Have so
she went back to just well she just photographs his.
Tours now doesn't she is she do a lot of
photograph but, yeah she's a photographer behind the scenes Of ringsteen's.
Tour but. Yeah so these are our character actors that
we got to work, With Sarah, Douglas MIRKY J, Pollard
and in a cameo someone, else everyone will Recognize Sidney

(01:19:18):
lassek who is actually singing along to a jukebox playing
a Wings houser.

Speaker 5 (01:19:24):
Song, okay that's there Was LIKE i knew there was
one in. There it does feel like this movie needs
neon slime in, It LIKE i feel like it's great
that it has this lethal weapon esque sexy, saxophone complete
sound and score with, this and at the end it
does blasts. It BUT i feel even if it all

(01:19:44):
of a sudden just replaced it With wingshuser's neon, slime
it would still so fit.

Speaker 2 (01:19:49):
At the end of the, movie of, COURSE i, MEAN
i just want to see a Wings houser song in every,
Single LIKE i wish he'd written The art Of dying
the song so that does the end credits, played it
was just him singing about you, know the, dying you,
know some kind.

Speaker 5 (01:20:05):
Of ridiculous semi referencing the plot conceptual.

Speaker 2 (01:20:09):
Song, yeah, yes and then out of, NOWHERE i poured
milk all over.

Speaker 5 (01:20:12):
Her right, it that'd be worse if that's where his
song was. Playing, like that's which is connecting to another
Wings houser, Film Get even or whatever three thousand titles
you want to call, it where the guy who made
that he sings over his own sex scenes in that
film and Luckily wings gets to lay in a hospital
bed through most of that. Movie, okay, nice but so

(01:20:34):
my thought was just how how steal away the sex
scenes are in art of dying if all of a
sudden you Heard wings singing over those scenes when he's
pouring milk on.

Speaker 2 (01:20:43):
Her, yes we've made that clear.

Speaker 5 (01:20:45):
People there is a scene where randomly you just mentioned
it earlier as being the most unsexy sex, scene, yes
where she tears his shirt and then he gets a
giant jug of milk and pours it on her and
then hoses her down in the.

Speaker 2 (01:20:58):
Sink there's the window sill in the, kitchen and he's
got the jam there and the milk. There it's not
like the milk's and the fridge and he.

Speaker 5 (01:21:06):
Right what was it doing? There?

Speaker 2 (01:21:08):
Right and not only, that but he has one of
those hose extenders on the sink specifically set up so
that he can hose it. Down so we'll play a
little bit with food and a little bit with. Milk
he paws it over her.

Speaker 5 (01:21:20):
Head as A, canadian it's very weird because that's a
that's a huge three liter jug of. Milk, yes we
get ours and bags and we have to put them
in a little. Holder so if it wasn't already ready to,
go imagine the. Preparation he's, like hang, on, honey let
me put the bag, in let me cut the top,
off all right, Now i'll.

Speaker 2 (01:21:36):
Report Right, well WHAT i. Like WHAT i like is
that someone somewhere, went, well let's do that nine and
a half weeks. Thing but instead of trying to figure
out actually how to do the nine and a half
weeks things, sexually he just, went what have we got
in the? Fridge jam and? Milk, oh that'll. Do i'll
smear a bit of that on her. Lips i'll, pour you,
know we'll drink a little bit of the, milk and
Then i'll just playfully pour it. Everywhere it would be,

(01:21:59):
Fine it would be fine if it didn't band down
past wings us to show his, feet like standing in
this tepid pool of milk water and. Jam that just you,
know that turns my. Stomach so in the middle of

(01:22:21):
this sex, scene to pan down to the floor where
you've got like, dirt, debris, jam milk water all curdling
Around wings's bigfoot, feet it's a little, uh it's a
little off.

Speaker 5 (01:22:34):
Put can imagine someone because right after that then they
go into the bathtub and someone, saying, well that's the reason, why,
Right because otherwise the audience will, think why don't they
just continue doing what they were doing? There why did
they have to go to the bat to the Bathrob,
well because they were covered in milk and it's.

Speaker 2 (01:22:49):
Growth well and also because she had she has that
thing where she's, like you can do whatever you want
to me, here but THEN i get thirty minutes of
you doing WHATEVER i want in above And, yeah and
what's funny is even the bathroom, scene which is by
father the sexier of the two, scenes hard, right not

(01:23:12):
half so bothers me because she sits up out of
the bath she's covered in bubble, bath, Right which if
you're going to be doing sex stuff in a, bathtub
bubble bath not. Good no one wants like to be eating,
soap do you know WHAT i? Mean and, like if
she's covered in bubble bath and just sits, up it's

(01:23:35):
not like she rinces herself. Off let's just put it that.
Way so if he's doing what he's doing with his,
mouth isn't he just part of? It quaffing huge amounts of.
Soap i'm just.

Speaker 5 (01:23:49):
Saying that's just movie. Magic that's the fact that she
doesn't get on the edge of The bathtuven just slide. Off.
Right nature doesn't work like movies. Do Even wings seems
to have some decent moves at this. POINT i guess
right as much as again uncomfortable that scene is because
it then splices back and forth to a rather cartoonish

(01:24:13):
but horrid. Murder, yeah so it really can take you
out of. It but that is SOMETHING i.

Speaker 2 (01:24:19):
Guess and some borderline AND i understand the actor is,
older but also like borderline teenage, nudity it's she's not
teenage the act who is, older but she's meant to
be sixteen seventeen in the, film and she's in the
shower and the you, know So i've.

Speaker 5 (01:24:36):
Already seen her in terrible. Positions When wings goes to
kind of free her and get her out of the
bad life she's. In when she's it's that is still
yet it's Still.

Speaker 2 (01:24:46):
Janet, yes SO i you brought that up BECAUSE i
wanted there's there's a great moment in there that sort
of The Taxi driver or if You're, british like The
Mona lisa scene where he goes into the back rooms
of a sex phone line shop kind of place.

Speaker 5 (01:25:05):
Where a guy gets cartoon, brothel.

Speaker 2 (01:25:08):
Cartoon brothel where a guy gets cut. Off he's on
the phone and then he gets cut off and just
like the scene begins with him just freaking out being
like how dare you cut me? Off or? Whatever and
then wings comes in and he walks. Through they clearly
can't afford to do like a full blown LIKE i
think he wants to do his you, know THE Cd
underbelly of l a. Thing but he walks past the

(01:25:28):
room with two sex workers petting a doc, right which
is just. Weird an old guy with a mustache wearing
a diaper in a giant, crib which AND i, know
like baby play or whatever is a. Thing but he's by.
Himself he's by, himself smoking a cigarette with an old.

Speaker 5 (01:25:50):
Looking like the baby from The Roger rabbit, cartoons WHICH
i mean not EVEN i.

Speaker 2 (01:25:54):
Mean looking looking like the path From Beverly Hill, pit right,
yeah with the baby from because he's this sort of, scrawny,
spindly weird looking old gray. Guy and then and then
she he goes into the back room where there's all
this sort of you, know sexual, accouterment and she's just
standing with her back to the wall or with her

(01:26:17):
front face to the wall and her butt showing while
someone is whipping, her.

Speaker 5 (01:26:21):
Right, yeah and he just says get out of. Here
and then that says like what are You what are
you doing? HERE i thought you were gonna. Leave she's
LIKE i needed some, money and she's all, like, like
no big.

Speaker 2 (01:26:33):
DEAL i needed some, money SO i went to The
like if you needed, MONEY i don't, know you could
have gone anywhere IN la and. Gone CAN i work
behind the counter for a few, hours you, know get
a job at you, know Dunkin donuts or.

Speaker 5 (01:26:48):
Something which then connects to her weirdness of like it's
not like they're alluding that she's addicted to that, lifestyle
but it feels like she doesn't know anything other than that,
lifestyle right because then when she is at that to
go get the bus out of town with, you just
A sydney lassk, right who also is a guy, who

(01:27:09):
no matter what role he's been in the, movie is
playing the same thing and overdoing.

Speaker 2 (01:27:13):
It but people will know him From One Flew over
The Cookoo's, Nest Carrie, freeway movies like.

Speaker 5 (01:27:19):
That he's in AND i Hope i'm not getting this.
RUN i think it's the same guy in the Movie Silent.
Madness and he's like a sheriff in the, town and,
like who chose him to be a sheriff in a slasher?
Movie he's, LIKE i know, better, Kid you're crazy that
this killer wouldn't be. Here but he's still doing it
in his, voice which is, yeah.

Speaker 2 (01:27:43):
Yeah from eighty. Four yeah that is, him yeah, Yeah.

Speaker 5 (01:27:45):
And it's so he's still talking and acting the, same
but he's playing a character that in no way was
written for. Him, no but impressive but. Regardless he she
asks him if there's any dancing going on in that.
Town he, goes, oh we want to go to a
dance and meets some boys just no, NO i mean like,
topless and he's, like oh heavens.

Speaker 8 (01:28:05):
Yes.

Speaker 5 (01:28:07):
And it comes out of nowhere in the, conversation it's so.
Unnatural it's to show that she has a. Problem and
then of course Letting jerry shows up and we're back
in trouble.

Speaker 2 (01:28:17):
Again, yes because on one, hand the redheaded actor she you,
know wants to be a star and gets embroiled in you,
know this sort of ceedy place where she then ultimately gets.
Killed the blonde on the other, hand, like as you're,
saying seemingly can't help, us like she sees her only

(01:28:39):
avenue of money being sex.

Speaker 5 (01:28:41):
Work, yeah the redheadish one who's the innocent one who
was when we first Meet Elne. Jerry she goes by
the name Of, summer but she alludes to not her real,
name and she seems like the innocent starlit who's come
to the big city and is lost by. It But,
janet who at one point wings again predominanly tries to
save and say get out of, town take some money

(01:29:01):
and get on a bus and get out of here or.
Something she seems like the classic story OF i was
raised on the streets kind of, thing but which again
is interesting because we don't get told that one way
or the, other but just by simple. Hints we get
an idea that these characters this isn't new for, Them
this is no.

Speaker 2 (01:29:20):
We get told something about her. Parents didn't he say
her parents want to.

Speaker 5 (01:29:24):
Talk to you or something like that she's a runaway
or something like.

Speaker 2 (01:29:27):
That, YEAH i think that gets. Mentioned all, Right, WELL
i hope you're enjoying the show so. Far it's a good, one,
right that lot's going on in this. Episode. Anyway we

(01:29:49):
now have a ton of interview. Clips the first few
clips are from CONVERSATIONS i had With Joseph, Mary Rick
peppin And Paul volk where they Mentioned wing's. Houses So
i'm just playing couple of those clips a sort of
a tribute from. Them and THEN i conducted new interviews
with Both Wings houser's biographer and Documentarian Steve. Mitchell for

(01:30:09):
people who don't, Know Steve mitchell made the Fantastic Larry
cohen Documentary King cohen and has now made a new
documentary Called Working Class, actor which he's been filming and
editing over the last few. Years where he had access
To wings before he passed lots of footage Of. Wings
new interviews with, him as well as interviews with tons

(01:30:33):
of people who worked With. Wings the trailer is, online
so if you look Up Working Class Actor Wings houser
trailer you'll you'll find. It but interviewed tons of people
From wings's career as well as a lot OF Pm
entertainment cohorts and, collaborators so look For Working Class actor
when that comes, out either later this year or early.

(01:30:53):
Next SO i Interviewed, steve which was a fantastic, conversation
and because we're talking out of, dying and BECAUSE i
wanted one Of wings's co stars from HIS pm, films
we are incredibly honored to be talking To Kathleen kinmont as.
Well so lots of interview coming up and lots Of
wings tribute coming, up SO i hope you're enjoying it

(01:31:14):
and keep. Listening, obviously we will have a few commercials
now before the interviews and maybe interspersed throughout the. Interviews
apologies for, that BUT i do need to pay for
hosting and pay for all my editing time and everything like.
That so please listen to the, commercials fast forward and
whatever you want to, do and enjoy the, interviews and

(01:31:37):
then we'll be back to finish up our discussion on
the art of dying and wrap up the. Episode thank
you so much for. Listening thank you so much for
continuing to be engaged On. Facebook don't. Forget if you
like the, shows if you want more of, them rate and,
review rate and, review rate and. Review that is the
biggest help you can, do and it costs absolutely. Nothing beyond,

(01:32:00):
that the other help you can do is like, share,
comment tell your, friends tell your family all that good,
stuff regram it whatever the kids are doing these, days
share it to Your instagram, stories whatever it.

Speaker 3 (01:32:14):
Is.

Speaker 2 (01:32:15):
PLEASE i try and be around on social media just
about every day posting, something and you guys are incredibly,
responsive which is. Fantastic just don't forget to share it
to the outside world so we can get more listeners
and more people engage with this, thing Because i'll take
this wherever it'll. Go if this gets a big listenership

(01:32:37):
and it starts becoming a popular. Show, listen more, interviews more,
podcasts filmed, segments a. Documentary who? Knows so, Look i'm
willing to ride THE pm entertainment train all the way
to the end of the. Line so just keep supporting
and we'll keep doing all, Right thanks so, much, guys

(01:32:58):
enjoy these. Interviews, okay, first Up Joseph. Murray you, know.

Speaker 9 (01:33:03):
Wins hawser had just had dinner With they did a.
Documentary they spent, differently.

Speaker 2 (01:33:13):
And, YEAH i know the director a little, Bit Steve.
MITCHELL i interviewed him And Larry cohen when they did
The Larry cohen documentary some years. Ago i'm A i'm
a big fan Of Steve. Mitchell i'm so excited for
the Wings hauser. Documentary I'm i'm the biggest fan of
of of Wings. HAUSER i just find him such a

(01:33:34):
such a, curious, enigmatic, unique, different, weird wonderful performer on.
Screen AND i wanted to, ask, actually you, know you
made a few films with, him and and he directed
a couple as. Well can you speak a little bit
about sort of the process of of working with with Wings.

Speaker 9 (01:33:53):
Hauser, well WHEN i first so with Wings, HOWSER i
forget any of the, movie BUT i was extremely impressed
AND i thought he was a brilliant. Actor he's really
in good Act SO i don't know how the opportunity,
came so we didn't work with. Him and so we
worked with, him and you, know he was he was you,

(01:34:16):
know he's an, artist and he was a little bit you,
KNOW i, mean this is not you know he, was
you know he. Was it was been crazy, eccentric you know.
That you know all all all actors are you, know
who are really talented? Anything so and then we to be.
Honest When Steve Steve mitchell called me and he told

(01:34:39):
me TO i, said you, KNOW i have nothing to
say about. HIM i, SAID i can't. Remember he's ringing kind.
OF i, SAID i can't even. KNOW i haven't SEEN
i don't own ONE gm. MOVIE i don't HAVE i
don't have. Anything you, know it's like a chatter in
my life that was in the. Past my kids watched
one movie for the first time twenty, seven twenty, five

(01:35:01):
and twenty, two and For, christmas everybody was at, home, Said,
dad will never seen one of your. Movies can see
one of your. Movies so we bought one on behind
and watched my movie and then never seen one of my, movies,
so you, know and they were. Impressed they, said oh my,

(01:35:22):
god oh that was really nice or. Whatever but you,
KNOW i couldn't. Remember just so they brought me the
DVDs of the, movie said please watch. Them you will
remember the stories and some stories you, KNOW i had
so SINCE i watched them links to reach out to
me and said. Hello and so we had lunches two
or three, times and we came to my house there
and for.

Speaker 2 (01:35:42):
Dinner nice of the documentary brought you both back into
each other's. Lives and had you not seen that in
a long?

Speaker 9 (01:35:48):
TIME i have not seen him SINCE i made the.

Speaker 2 (01:35:50):
Movie oh, wow okay thirty years ago.

Speaker 9 (01:35:53):
When they were sitting when we were sitting there and.
DYING i think it was a scene where That's kinmont
And Wing's houser in the. Bathtub, yeah, okay, yeah and they,
were you, know they were kissing and they were a
man seen you. Together, Yeah and then then we were

(01:36:13):
shooting and then we run out of. Film you, know
we're shooting on. Films they company some film and it
takes about ten minutes to change the, magazine to take
the magazine. Out they bringing the, magazine they'd low air
into the lenses and make, sure you know. Everything it
takes ten minutes to, change so you, know you'll say
we're out of film until we. Stopped and and at

(01:36:38):
that point she learns a lot of swats and did
the set and he, is you, know by the craft.
Service maybe bring me the coffee and his wife And
wings out in the bathtub And wins, it's you, know
touching her. Legs AND i, said you know we're not

(01:36:58):
shooting right him the rinks. Goes you, know we're just
staying in. CHARACTER i, said, okay.

Speaker 2 (01:37:07):
Up embarrassed when we all heard About wings, PASSING i
reached out to some of THE pm entertainment, people And
joseph responded and said thank. YOU i always Thought wings
was extremely. Talented god bless his. Soul and then the
Cinematographer Ken, blakey WHO i hope to be speaking too,

(01:37:30):
soon SAID i did not know About wings. Passing i'm
very sorry to hear about. THAT i actually worked On
art Of dying As Rick peppin's. GAFFER i was just
breaking in AT. Pm rick AND i always agreed that
it was probably PM's best all around, film not an
action or martial arts, movie but a solid dramatic film.
Noir wings was a pleasure to work. WITH i look

(01:37:53):
forward to speaking to, you, okay and now a brief
word With Rick peppin.

Speaker 8 (01:37:58):
Was open to, anything you. Know and it was like
it with actors. TOO i, mean we like With Wings,
HOUSER i WOULD i wanted him to make his, movie
BUT i shot his movies because you, know we were
a little worried about his drinking and. Stuff BUT i
was on set all the time AND i shot. Him

(01:38:20):
BUT i kind of let him do what he wanted
to do unless it was really. Crazy unless it was really,
Crazy BUT i had very few issues with.

Speaker 2 (01:38:28):
Him, YEAH i, mean, So i'm aside from being a
peam entertainment, Fan i'm a huge fan Of Wings, Houses,
Straight Venue, Out. Pum i'm sort of aware of who
he was a little bit behind the, scenes but mainly
because some directors have spoken very highly of, him and
other directors HAVE i Think nico Master, rakus who made

(01:38:49):
a series of bunch of films in the eighties and
nineties but worked With houser On The wind And nightmare At,
noon had not great things to say about, him but
other people have said some fantastic things about. Him And
i'm a huge fan of what seems to be his
somewhat unpredictable but kind of wild improv. STYLE i, mean,
yes obviously there are lines written for, him and there
is a, script but he also seems to be very

(01:39:11):
good at taking that character and then sort of talking
and or acting or even dropping little things in within that.
Character is that something you found working with? Him?

Speaker 8 (01:39:21):
Yeah, yeah and AGAIN i would let him do. THAT
i used to tell people when they came in and,
like PM's could give you this box and next amount of.
Money the money WOULD i always. Change some of them
were half a, mion some of them were. One BUT i,
said in his, box you can move the money, around
you can do. Things BUT i, said you can't get

(01:39:43):
out of his. Box and the box is Like. CORMAN i,
mean we had an action an opening action, scene a
closing action, scene and it was every ten, minutes something
has to, happen something has to. Happen so as long
as you stayed in that, box you could kind of
do what you, want you. Know, yeah it seemed to
work for. Us it seemed to work.

Speaker 2 (01:40:05):
Definitely AND i Mean i've WATCHED i think all of
The Wings house ones and, everything but The Big fall that.
C Thomas howe did for. You and what's interesting is
they seem to be leaning into a lot of that
film noir. VIBE i, mean obviously with the sort of
neon drenched eighties and nineties sort Of Los angeles cinematography

(01:40:28):
and Sometimes Las vegas, cinematography but it's the beats of
the film outside of the action tend to be fairly
kind of film. Noir Is is that something they both
spoke to you about or is that something you guys
brought to the table and, said, hey what can you
actors do with?

Speaker 8 (01:40:43):
THIS i think it was more wings AND i went
along with. IT i was, fine is. THAT i Love,
stimilis you, KNOW i, said let's let's do. It and
we one of the things at the very, Beginning joe
AND i when we went to the foreign, markets they
just like seeing shots Of Los. Angeles they so we
made sure we were on the streets all the, time

(01:41:05):
and that was kind Of i'm not sure it's sustained,
now BUT i think in the eighties and nineties they
were really looking for seeing the city and we shot
everywhere and, hell so we gave them. That that was
another staple that we really.

Speaker 9 (01:41:21):
Had to be down At.

Speaker 8 (01:41:22):
Mollywood we had.

Speaker 9 (01:41:23):
To be DOWNTOWN.

Speaker 8 (01:41:24):
La you, know we need to show them the. City,
oh and that was.

Speaker 2 (01:41:29):
No as someone who raised was raised in THE, uk
but was sort of steeped very early In, americana whether
it was THE tv shows we were seeing whether it
was you, Know hemingway books And pokowski books and other
things we were. Reading whatever it, was we loved. IT
i always equate it with a songwriter who mentions an
obscure street name or a you, know a section of

(01:41:52):
downtown city or something in a. Song it's. Evocative you suddenly, go,
wait where's? That how DO i get? There whereas nowadays
with every something homogenized and sort of shot in Either
canada Or, georgia it seems and everything is kind of
just shot as the action is, happening and follow the
action and don't care where the actions taking, place and

(01:42:15):
don't really care like where all this fits. IN i
think the appeal and the thrill certainly for, myself BUT
i think for other film fans going back to sort
of the, seventies eighties and, nights because once you get
the indies of the, seventies you have them filming more on.
Location like you think of all the whether it's The scorsese,
films The couple of, films or The hopper films or,

(01:42:35):
whatever they're all shooting on, location and it's the location
that's sort of informing a lot of the action that's.
Happening but even as you move into the eighties and,
nineties there was no creating something on a green. Screen
you had To if you wanted to shoot something in the,
jungle you had to go to the. Jungle if you
wanted to shoot something in DOWNTOWN la you had to
block off streets and. Things so talk about, that then

(01:42:57):
talk about the location shooting the obviously the issues you
might come. Across how in those days Was Los angeles
sort of much more open to stuff like that and
also getting away with you, know ramping cars or shooting
cars through fireballs and things like that in the middle
of like a downtown metropolitan. AREA i would love some

(01:43:17):
stories about that if there is.

Speaker 8 (01:43:19):
Well to be, honest when we first, started the easiest
thing for us to shoot it was live on the,
Street Hollywood, boulevard and you, know they're all pretty well.
Lit and at the beginning we had we didn't do.
Permits we just it was real gorilla. Filmmaking and like you,
know in one of the, shows the actor is going
to be in a. Bus SO i had a sixteen

(01:43:40):
MOLIMETER ca. Camera it was pretty, small AND i would
just hide in ANOTHER jad. Jacket we'd get on the
bus and we shoot him riding around with the Background
Los angeles until we got thrown, off, Right and that
was kind of what we. Did a lot of. THAT
i remember we shot a scene in front of a police,
station you, know and, UH i, said we're going to

(01:44:02):
Get we're going to get in trouble. Hair we had
a generator across the, street we had one or two.
Lights we rehearsed and seeming like crazy in THIS rv
and then we just went and shot it within fifteen
minutes and the cops were going going by and they
didn't stop, us WHICH i don't think we could do.
TODAY i don't. Think.

Speaker 2 (01:44:22):
Yeah and, lastly of these small clips from other conversations
edited pull.

Speaker 10 (01:44:30):
VAULT i mean it was, huge like let's continue getting
better at what we're doing and to attract. Wings uh
he we gave him directing, jobs you. Know He art Of,
dying which IS i think an, amazing WONDERFUL.

Speaker 2 (01:44:46):
I love that movie so. Much it's it's.

Speaker 10 (01:44:48):
Great and well and and and And living To die
and uh, YEAH.

Speaker 2 (01:44:53):
I was going to ask you About living To, die Late,
trump But living To die you did the editor. Right
You in, fact you edited Both living To die And
outs Of dying AND i like working with him in
an edit.

Speaker 10 (01:45:03):
Suite, well well he wasn't, there, okay actually, okay but
but but but working on.

Speaker 2 (01:45:10):
Set with him was.

Speaker 10 (01:45:11):
GREAT i did boom FOR i did boom for most
of that Movie art Of, dying and that was that
was very interesting. Too, actually the whole making love with
the food scene and the horse speech and.

Speaker 2 (01:45:25):
So i've heard that some of that was sort of,
improvised BUT i don't QUITE i don't quite. KNOW i,
mean obviously today it was all pretty much.

Speaker 10 (01:45:32):
Improved it was came out of his.

Speaker 2 (01:45:34):
Mind, Okay but did he speak to people, beforehand Like
i'm gonna grab this milk and throw this? Everyone, well
was it just something he. DID i wasn't Before Cathley
kimmon had to go along with.

Speaker 7 (01:45:44):
It.

Speaker 10 (01:45:45):
Yeah, yeah she was quite a true for when we
came to, that because you, know she was married To
Lorenzo lamas at the. Time, right occasionally come to the
set and visit this Cool lorenzo riding up on his
motorcycle and coming in for a while and then you,
know riding. Away it just it was all In wings's.
Head if he asked for all the food stuff and

(01:46:05):
what not to be on, set and then he started
doing it and then you, know and then she went
along with, it, right but doing well doing the the
killing scenes like the shower scene or the you, know
the way we did the killing with the bus saar or.
Whatever you, know that was actually all so very interesting
because it was so down and dirty and you, know

(01:46:28):
throwing pieces of meat around and, well.

Speaker 2 (01:46:32):
You sort of see the, transition don't, you between the
like something Like, shotgun, right which has the sort of
serial killer, element, Right so you've got the kind of
grindhousey violence and, seediness, right and then obviously towards the
end Of, shotgun you're, like, oh let's try a hand
at sort of an action. Sequence he sort of builds
his tank and he drives and drives, off and that
there's the sort of big standoff at the. End then

(01:46:54):
you have something LIKE i always think of something like
Either living To die Or The arts Of dying as
sort of that next. Extent you're keeping a lot of
the kind of Like grindhouse THE cd, elements because OBVIOUSLY
i think THAT'S i think a that's kind of WHAT
i think Wings houser is kind of a fan of
just based on the other movies he's. Done but also
you then allow yourself to start whipping in more action

(01:47:18):
sequences and building them throughout the movie rather than than
at the, End and SO i see them as. Transitional,
WELL i.

Speaker 10 (01:47:25):
THINK i mean one of the things you're referring to
was the script's getting. BETTER i, mean there's nothing to,
substitute AND i think the art of dying script was pretty.

Speaker 1 (01:47:35):
Good that's.

Speaker 2 (01:47:36):
Great the other thing, was As.

Speaker 10 (01:47:39):
George as we started to do the thirty five and spend,
good much more money than we did At City, lights
and we're NOW pm and we're shooting at thirty, five
which costs a lot more to begin, with and spending
a lot more money to kind of lock in guarantee
of sale through Our george had relationships with all the foreign.

(01:48:04):
Countries one of the things was we got to do
an action scene every seven. Minutes and now we're entering
into the you know more that the, well it would
shoot him out and, fights but chase, scene car chase
scenes and. Whatnot oh OR i suppose foot chases and whatnot.
Too but you, know like he'd start when he was

(01:48:25):
watching a cut down in the edit, bay he would
start to get nervous and sweaty if they're you, know
if he waited too long between action, scenes you, know
and this is is it just kind of like became
THE pm wa you. Know and he would actually go
and talk to the buyers and ask them what would
you like to see in a, movie what kind of
scene would you?

Speaker 5 (01:48:46):
Like and you, know sometimes they'd, say.

Speaker 10 (01:48:47):
Well let's see an armored, car or let's see a,
bus or let's at a. Helicopter and they felt like
they were part of the filmmaking, process so it would
be much more likely that they'd pay us or pay
us a decent amount of money for the, movie you,
know and pre. Sell they give us money before it
was even shot, necessarily you. Know so, yeah so there's

(01:49:10):
THAT pm, formula like action every seven, minutes not do
long in, between and just spending more money on those action.
Scenes The City lights was basically just some you, know
shoot them out and and and and hand to hand
combat for the most, part very little car. Stuff and
then AS pm started, moving we started doing big the

(01:49:32):
big chase scenes With, spiro you, know prior to his
the new. Franchise right and AS i said, before we're
going to be talking To Steve mitchell who recently completed
the documentary on the life Of Wings houser Called Working Class.

Speaker 2 (01:49:48):
Actor thank you ever so much For Oh It's My
pleasure show appearing on THE Pm entertainment podcast and and
to talk about your friend and documentary subject To wings, Housing.

Speaker 1 (01:49:59):
Well thanks for having having, Me. John it's obviously a
little rough right, now sort of getting used to the
idea that he's. Gone As i've said to a number of,
people we were sort of shocked but not surprised kind
of the way we looked at. It we knew that
he was in weakening, health but we didn't, know you,

(01:50:24):
know all the. Particulars, yeah it's it's. Weird it's tough
losing anybody that you. Know and when you make a
movie like, this like WHAT i did With King, cohen
The Larry Cohen, picture you, know you sort OF i,
think what. Happens you can't help but become friends with these,
people you. Know and one of the things that was

(01:50:47):
pleasurable for me WAS i got to hang out With
wings and just be a couple of guys who like
talking about what we like talking. About you, KNOW i
wasn't crazy about him last, fall when you, know he
really get me a hard time about The yankees losing
The World series to The, dodgers Because i'm From New
york and he was AN la, guy so this was

(01:51:07):
a big deal for. Him and you, know in in,
RETROSPECT i kind of, go, Well i'm glad you saw
The dodgers win The World. Series, yeah so that was.
Nice but you, know he was an interesting. GUY i,
mean we would have these lunches that would go on,
FOREVER i mean a couple of hours at the very.
Least and he was, candid he was, funny he was

(01:51:27):
sort of. HUMBLE i say sort of only because you,
know he's an, actor SO i never, know.

Speaker 2 (01:51:32):
BUT i liked.

Speaker 1 (01:51:33):
HIM i thought he was. GENUINE i thought he was.
Authentic telling his story has been has been a very
interesting kind of. JOURNEY i don't want to sound pretentious with,
that but you, know when the origin of this project,
started just Before covid and my producing Partner Matt verboys

(01:51:54):
And dan McKeon AND i and a couple of other
film lunatics used to get together once a month and
have you, know a big time movie, night replete replete
with alcohol and dopiness and you, know eating bad eating bad.
Food ALTHOUGH i don't Think pitez's bad, food but there
was a lot of that and we had a lot of.

(01:52:14):
Laughs and one night we Watched Vice squad and one
of the guys had not seen, it AND i think
also he had not seen much Of wings Or wings
had not made a really big impression on, him, Right
and he said to and he said, afterwards he, said
this guy's. Great we had to watch more stuff with,
him and THEN covid Hit and what happened was we

(01:52:38):
would get together Every friday night Via, zoom kind of
like a book, club and instead of reading a, book
we would watch a Prescribed wingshauser movie or SOME. Tv
and this went on for about a. Year we were
finding a way to find a lot of his, stuff the,
good the, bad and the really not so. Good but

(01:53:01):
what happened that was fascinating for us was whether it
was AN a picture OF b picture A c. Picture
he was always really. Good, YEAH i mean he Made
he'd be the first one to agree with me that
he made some really crummy. Movies i'll just leave it
at THAT. Pg thirteen. Version but he was never crummy in.
Them he was always, good always, interesting And WINGS i

(01:53:25):
think was kind of a force of nature persona. Actor you,
KNOW i think when you would See wings in one,
thing he was pretty Much wings in another. Thing occasionally
when he would do television later in his, career he
was maybe trying to go towards character, stuff but it
was still a version Of wings and he was great

(01:53:48):
at Playing. Wings so, anyway just to finish the origin
of all, this because it's sort of, amusing the wife
of the, guy who was not familiar With, wings, said you,
know he ought to know about, this and so she
used to be an agent and she got in touch
with another casting guy who found his manager and we

(01:54:12):
arranged a phone. Call and he's not really technically very,
savvy so it was a phone call over a speaker
held to a microphone on a. Computer but we talked
to the guy for about an hour and a half
and he was a lot of. Fun he had great,
recall he was very, entertaining he was you, know he

(01:54:33):
was always a. Performer and that's kind of how this
got started because my, Partner Matt, verboys said is there
a movie with this? Guy AND i, SAID i need
to meet him one more, time and so we met
under STRICT covid considered conditions at The Manhattan Beach Film

(01:54:53):
studio In Manhattan beach and we sat around outside and
we saw of continue this conversation that we had with,
him and afterwards we sort of walked away, saying you,
KNOW i think this there's something here because the trick
AND i Think i've done this with you in previous
interviews or interview or. Interviews you got to have somebody

(01:55:15):
who's really interesting at the core of. It if they're not,
interesting like their reputation can't be, interesting they have to be.

Speaker 2 (01:55:21):
Interested, yes we.

Speaker 1 (01:55:23):
Thought he was interesting and we, said, hey we'd like
to do, it and he said, okay, yeah and that's
how we got.

Speaker 2 (01:55:28):
Started, Yeah AND i think it's it's fascinating what you
were saying there about sort Of wings's persona in the
films and how and how it would come, out certainly
in THE pm, films BUT i see it in other
films as. Well BUT i just think he had more
control over it on the ones that he, directed but
you can see his, improvisation like he puts so much

(01:55:50):
improvisation in his films very, OFTEN i think because THEY'RE
b movies that need you, know we got to get
FROM a TO b, Here wings we need this scene
that's going to tell us. THAT i think there's a
scene In Pale blood where he suddenly realizes the guy
is a, vampire and he's going back and forth on
the computer with the film, footage and there's clearly no script.

(01:56:12):
Written there's just realize he's a. Vampire that's probably what
was written. Down and yet he does a full two
minute scene getting up from the, desk walking over to
his other, desk getting a drink, out talking to, himself
trying to rationalize. It and there are so many moments
like that in so many Of wings's films that WHILE
i do find him very compelling in the characters that he,

(01:56:35):
plays and while there are subtle, NUANCES i think to
the different parts that he's played throughout some of these,
movies when he improvs or goes a little off script
or does His wings, thing it's almost when he's the
most compelling and the most interesting and the most. ALIVE
i liken him very much To Michael moriarty in the

(01:56:57):
movies that he did With Larry. COHEN i think of
que The Wing It's, up AND i wonder Where larry's
words And mariotti's sort of jazz improv, meet you know
WHAT i. Mean AND i feel that a lot With.

Speaker 1 (01:57:10):
Wings, WELL i think both of these guys live in the,
moment which is the thing you always hear actors talk about.
THAT i Don't wings told this one. Story it's a
little tease from something that's in the dock That i'm working.
On is that when he did his first stage, play
he was doing. It his dad had a theater In Thousand, Oaks,

(01:57:31):
california and his dad was a, writer and he And
Kurt russell's, dad Being, russell built this theater out there almost, literally,
yeah And wings got a chance to play a part
in a, play and Being, Russell kurt's, dad you, know
said to, him he, says all, right you've done all the,
preparation you know what you've got to. Do and then

(01:57:54):
he just, said let it. Go and if there's a
sentence that kind of Sun wings is he lets it.
Go he's in the, moment he's, there he lets it.
GO i think he trusts his. INSTINCTS i don't think
he makes a judgment about the characters or anything like.
THAT i know That, RAMROD i will tease you at

(01:58:17):
this That ramrod was a tough part for, Him, yeah
because it put him in touch with some incredible darkness
and you, know just to sort of do a sidebar
On ramrod for a. Second there are two or three
performances in the eighties where everybody just, goes who the
hell is this? Guy You i'm sure you felt that

(01:58:38):
way when you Saw Alan rickman and Die hard for
the first. Time you, know we're movie, guys we know
who we know the, players And, alan Who's Alan? Rickman,
well you, know he walks out of the back of the,
truck you, know with the terrorist, robbers and you just,
go who's this?

Speaker 2 (01:58:53):
Guy?

Speaker 1 (01:58:54):
Well wings was like that In Vice, squad That wings.
Was it's such a, dent you, know in all of
us as an. Actor AND i think that he was
always sort of letting it go and he trusted, himself
AND i think a lot of the work good bed

(01:59:18):
or otherwise always sort of grew out of, him like
how he trusted himself and his ability to just kind
of be there in the moment and let it. Go.
YEAH i don't know if that's real acting school, stuff
but it worked for.

Speaker 2 (01:59:33):
Him, NO i think it. Is AND i mean there's
obviously multiple schools of, acting But i've definitely heard others
talk about this idea of the main thing you have
to do is preparation and then to some extent throw it.
Away and then there are Other then there are actors
who win they're on. Camera then are either very technical

(01:59:54):
or they're very emotive or that you, know they have
their tricks of the. Trade BUT i think all of
them to a, person would would, say you, know preparation
is the number one thing unless you're gonna you, Know
daniel day lewis at and just stay character the whole.
TIME i.

Speaker 1 (02:00:11):
KNOW i know of certain, actors you know they they
prepare it within an inch of its. Life you, know
they they know how they're going to play the. Punctuation
AND i Think wayns was much looser than. That. YEAH
i think that's what made him interesting because he in
a sense he always had a certain dangerousness as an,
actor not like anybody was in, peril but just sort

(02:00:32):
of go what's he going to?

Speaker 7 (02:00:33):
Do?

Speaker 1 (02:00:34):
Yeah and that makes him exciting to.

Speaker 2 (02:00:36):
Watch unpredictable is definitely a word that THAT i would,
use AND i think that he. Was he was both
very unpredictable but also in a weird, way fiercely, real
like there was there was a there was a one
hand you were, like, well this could go off into
a flight of, fancy LIKE i have no idea where
this could. Go this could go you, know surreal or

(02:00:57):
sci fi. Whatever but then on the other, hand and
there was always this like dangerously real or incredible thing
like behind his eyes or behind his, performance no matter
what he was. Playing and it's it's you, know it's
interesting because you have those there are sort of key
touchstone wings movies that not everyone would, know BUT i

(02:01:18):
would hope film fans would. Know and it's sort of
your you, know your vice squad and tough guys don't.

Speaker 1 (02:01:24):
Dance and he's amazing in.

Speaker 2 (02:01:27):
That he's amazing in that.

Speaker 1 (02:01:29):
He's the word that kind of comes to my mind
for him is. Powerhouse, yeah that he has powerhouse. Energy
he has powerhouse kind of charisma that the lens finds very.
Interesting you, KNOW i do a lot of commentary, tracks
AND i often talk about whether or, not you, know
an actor is liked by the. Camera you, KNOW i

(02:01:53):
think that makes the difference between you, know great actors
and movie. Stars if the camera loves you or is
fan more importantly fascinated by you than you're in pretty good.
Shape AND i Think wings had. THAT i think the
camera was fascinated by, him you, know the camera just
sort of, said, well what's he going to? Do right and?
That and you know that's why he's always good in

(02:02:14):
whatever he. Makes and, listen we watch them VHS's of
some of, his you, know lesser. MOVIES i don't even
know if they would be considered. Bees they were more
like c's and as mediocre or not great or not
well conceived or not well assembled or whatever it. Is
he showed up and he did his, job, yes and

(02:02:36):
and that's what makes HIM i, think worthy of people's.
Attention AND i think the people who know him know
that they it's it's that Old Howard stern. Joke you,
know when When Howard stern made that Movie Private, parts
and they were doing, surveys they, said they hate, him
but they want to see what he's going to do. Next,
WELL i don't think people Hated, wings but THEY i

(02:02:57):
think they wanted to see what he was going to do.

Speaker 2 (02:02:58):
Next oh. Yeah one of the ones that that stood
out to me recently that we covered was the Two
Gregory dock movies he, Made Denban walking And. ASYLUM i
thought he. WAS i thought he was great in both those. Movies.

Speaker 1 (02:03:13):
Yeah, again it doesn't matter whether IT'S abc, direct the
video you, know made literally for the. Cassette you, know
there are a million stories about how cheap movies got you,
know got ON, vhs goes stores of course needed, product
but there was HE i don't think there was any
judgment With. Wings now she might have privately said to.

(02:03:34):
Me he, says, Yes, STEVE i was going through a
divorce AND i needed the. Money but it's not a you,
know his work is Not i'm going through a divorce
AND i need the money kind of. Performance, No AND
i think that's the thing that we noticed when we
watched all his. Stuff and he's surprisingly able to jump
around genres as. Well it's not ALWAYS i, know he
gets sort of labeled AS i think there's a letterbox

(02:03:57):
list that's Literally Wings houser on the cover of this
movie with a. GUN i think is one of the
joke he letterbox list. Titles, yeah and there's only about
four hundred of, those.

Speaker 2 (02:04:06):
Right, Yeah but you know he does he does odd
ones like In between And Brian Trenchatt smith, movie WHICH
i would consider sort of along with along with tough.
Guys They're don's kind of his other crowning, achievement which
is The siege of Five Lace, Glory AND i understand
that's action, adjacent but you, know it's it's more of
a war. Movie it's more of an emotional.

Speaker 1 (02:04:26):
Movie it's more it was he you, know he had
told me that that movie WAS i, mean that was
that movie was kind of a big deal for him
on a number of. Levels but he had a very
good friend who, served and so on the on the one,
hand he's very much on the side of you, know
the citizens soldiers who wound up going over, there and

(02:04:47):
YET i think he was against the. War so as
as a, part you, know he was feeling kind of
both sides of OF i was going to say, argument
but it wasn't an. Argument but you, know there was
a certain kind of conflict for, him kind of moral.
Conflict like he was pro, military he was pro, gis
but he also liked most of us back in the

(02:05:09):
day we were not crazy about the, war, Right and
but again he. Didn't he just sort of used that
for who the character, was right he, was you, KNOW
i think that one was required a little bit more
heavy lifting on his part acting, wise and he stepped. Up,
yeah you, know tough. Guys he asked twenty seven people

(02:05:32):
if it's a good, movie and you're gonna get twenty seven. Answers,
yeah but it's not uninteresting regardless of when you think of,
it and he is.

Speaker 2 (02:05:40):
Fantastic he is, Fantastic AND i, think what's you? Know
now you're able to kind of go back and watch
some of the interviews That Norman mayla did about the
movie and. Things is that whether people like it or,
not whether they think it's a good movie or not or.
WHATEVER i consider it a success because from Everything Norman mayla,
said it's What Norman maylas set out to. MAKE i

(02:06:00):
don't Think Norman mayler was under any delusion as to
what he was. MAKING i think then he wanted to
make a ghost, Story well there's some of that In.
They he wanted to make a, comedy well there's some
of that In. They he wanted to make a love
letter to that part Of, massachusetts which is definitely in,
there and he wanted to make this sort of film.
Noir SO i mean it Is Twin peaks two years

(02:06:22):
Before Twin. Peaks if you Watch tough guys don't, dance
and think of all the genres that it's playing, with
and then you, think and it's got the badly menty
score and everything, else and then you think of sort
of the tropes That lynch plays with both In Twin,
peaks but then also again In Lost highway and some
of the other movies he. Made it's not a million
miles from. It just Because David lynch Is David lynch

(02:06:43):
And Norman Mailer's Norman. Mailer it doesn't mean that one
should be held up necessarily as greater than the other.
ONE i think there's pros to.

Speaker 1 (02:06:52):
BOTH i, think, Yeah and things were bumpy Between wings
And norman in the, Beginning, yes and they had kind
of a little bit of a. SHOWDOWN i think two
guys with the, ego and they kind of got past
it and they realized that they were very kindred spirits
at the end of the, day and they became very fast,

(02:07:13):
friends and according The, wings they stayed, friends you, know,
yeah forever after.

Speaker 2 (02:07:18):
That, No I've I've i've heard that from both. SIDE
i Think wings is interviewed on the on the desk
And normans AND i think they both kind of say
the same. Thing but ABOUT Pm entertainment, SPECIFICALLY i think
what's very interesting his relationship there With joseph. ESPECIALLY i
don't know Whether rick was also had that, relationship BUT
i Think joe was more the the, passionate outgoing personal

(02:07:43):
one of the of the two guys behind.

Speaker 1 (02:07:45):
THEM i got the impression that That joe was sort
of the mogul and and and And Rick peppin was
the on set.

Speaker 6 (02:07:54):
Guy.

Speaker 2 (02:07:55):
Yeah, No my understanding is, that, Yes joseph certainly has
That mogo, quality although they also then had a sales.
GUY i Think joseph was more the creative and the
MOG i Think joseph Had joseph was the one who was,
LIKE i always wanted to make a. Movie he wanted
to be like the sort Of Syrian Woody. Allen he
wanted to make a. Comedy in, fact the first movie

(02:08:18):
they make For City lights was a, comedy and everyone
who watched it, went don't do, that do. Action But,
JOSEPH i Think joseph was the one who had some
real passion and when you hear his story and how
he put the company. Together BUT i think you're, right
he's also you, know obviously the money man as. Well
he went into real estate and he's done other stuff
since then that.

Speaker 1 (02:08:38):
Obviously he liked that one very very.

Speaker 2 (02:08:40):
Well, yes he has a Nice Beverly hills home and everything.
Else but what was interesting to, me AND i spoke
To joseph a little bit about this, although and he
did credit your documentary with rekindling his relationship With. Wings
he hadn't spoken The wings in probably twenty, years and
they actually had a few lunches after, uh after he
was in the. Documentary BUT i always thought it was.

(02:09:02):
Fascinating and they did this with a few. Actors they
did it With Laarence Sulton, jacobs they did it with
See Thomas, howell believe it or. Not and they did
it With Wings houser where they gave, them you, know
the ability to, direct WHICH i don't know If. Wings
SO i guess my question to you, is Did wings
tell you that he always wanted to direct and here
was his job so or was it just something that

(02:09:22):
he was interested in trying?

Speaker 1 (02:09:24):
Out, WELL i think the answer is kind of d
all of the. Above the thing That joe liked About
wings is he felt That, wings from on an acting,
level brought a certain heightened level to the. PERFORMANCES i,
mean let's face, it they were MAKING b, movies, yes
and they were you, know getting them. Done and the
thing That wings was doing was he was elevating them

(02:09:46):
with his. Performance and then you, Know JOSEPH i think
very wisely said well maybe this guy should direct for.
Us and so what happened is THAT i think those
movies were better movies because of. That And joe was
smart enough to realize, that, WELL i got a real actor,

(02:10:07):
directing and then having a real actor as the director
might also help improve the quality of the cast in
his movies and or get better.

Speaker 2 (02:10:17):
Performances, yeah BECAUSE i Mean wings does bring people in with.

Speaker 1 (02:10:22):
Him he brings, ye he was really he was very
very game to Let wings do. IT i don't Think
wings's first movie is that, great to tell you the
truth was that cold fire Called.

Speaker 2 (02:10:31):
Fire, Yes I'm i'm not the biggest fan of that.
One to the other.

Speaker 1 (02:10:35):
Two, yeah the The vegas one which Was living To,
DIE i think to fascinating that. One we all of
us in the sort Of wings the somebody once called
us howser, Notts, YES i like that. House The Houser
notts all thought that that was maybe not only his
best movie FOR. Pm but you, know sometimes when you're

(02:10:59):
looking AT b, movies you, go, well it's a GOOD b,
movie Whereas living To, die you, go that's kind of
an as you, know it's A b plus it's more
than what it. Was AND i think a lot of
that had to do With, wings AND i think a
lot of his ideas for how to shoot, it and,
uh you, know it's got a pretty brave, ending you,
know an extreme. BRING i WON'T i won't say anything

(02:11:21):
more than that, maybe but you, Know, Joe joe really
Like wings and he liked what he did for his.

Speaker 2 (02:11:28):
Movies, yeah AND i know you spoke To kathy Kim
on and in The art Of, DYING i think What
wings brings to it is this he's questioning, Everything he's
questioning what relationships are. Questioning And Kathy kimmont plays this,
strong sexual positive woman who has sort of taken charge
of this relationship in a way that, was you, know

(02:11:51):
sort of post feminist in it's in its, way but
there are there are moments in the movie that are
seems so intimate because they are seemingly.

Speaker 1 (02:12:01):
Improvised When wings goes to, act whether he's directing or,
not he's there to. Play you, know he uses a
lot of sports, metaphors you, know because he's a big sports.
Guy he wanted to be a professional athlete before he
wanted to be an. Actor he wanted to be AN nfl,
player and he played some college, ball BUT i think
he kind of banged up his knee or knees or

(02:12:24):
something and he never really got the. Chance but he
goes to play and when he's interacting with other, actors
especially if the characters are supposed to be playful for one.
Another he created that environment and she fed off, that
and he fed off. That and there's that scene WHERE
i think she's riding on the beach with a horse.

(02:12:46):
Death that was just one of those things where he, said,
hey there's a horse down, there why don't we just
have you kind of ride. Up you know that here's a,
guy he's making a movie where he doesn't have a
lot of, time he doesn't have a lot of, money
but he has the ability to sort of look around
his environment and, say let's use, that. Right you, know
he's very open to using. Stuff AND i think she was.

(02:13:08):
Too and you, know she had said to, me you,
know kind of in a broad, sense that you, know
she trusted him and because he created the atmosphere for.
That so when they're doing the fight stuff and everything like,
THAT i, mean it looks pretty terrible and she looks
like she's. Suffering she had said that much she enjoyed. Doing,

(02:13:29):
yeah you, know she's fighting with the director the. Guy, yeah,
yeah it's you, know it's it's. Fake it's the. Movies
and then also as the, director it was something that you,
know helped, her you, know enjoy the process and enjoying
making the. Movie AND i think they they had great chemistry.
Too you can't if that's not, there, well it doesn't

(02:13:50):
matter how good they are as, actors you, Know so
chemistry is is really at the core of.

Speaker 2 (02:13:54):
It, oh they had great. Chemistry and it also feels,
like again there's this blurring of the between the character
and reality where it does feel Like wings himself personally
sort of working through maybe a prior relationship or maybe
bumps in the road of a relationship he was in
a time or something like. That it's fascinating and then

(02:14:16):
you get these. SCENES i mean talk about him as a,
director AND i know he worked With Rick, pepperin who
was a fantastic. Cinematographer that was his. PASSION i think
that's What rick does from most of the. Movies FOR,
pm he's the cinematographer along With Ken. Blakey but you
get two. SHOTS i think Of Kathy kimmot THAT i

(02:14:36):
would put up against any of the kind of road
movies or beautiful movies of the, seventies those kind of you,
know vanishing points or those kind of. Movies one is
her on the horse with the sun behind her and
she's riding around and the camera just allows. Her you,
know she's wearing the white gown and, everything and it
sort of allows her to be angelic in that moment

(02:14:57):
and kind of biblical in a weird. Way she's you,
know she's like the white. Horse white woman in a
white dress on a white. Horse it's kind of got that,
that you, know The Johnny cash, line, right or The
bible line From. Revelations and then the other one is
when she's being followed by the detective and she's riding
up pch and wings And rick allow this sort of

(02:15:22):
it suddenly becomes one of those Seventies california road, movies like,
suddenly you, know THE si, motorcycle but she's on the.
Motorcycle it suddenly becomes and there's a thicker grain to the,
film and it just looks, lusher and the light is
hitting it a certain, way like it's odd to be you.
KNOW Pm entertainment was so run and, gone and yet

(02:15:43):
almost every single one of their movies has a moment
in it where you're, like if these guys were given ten,
million let alone one, Million if these guys were given
ten million and three, months they could have made a phenomenal,
film you know WHAT i.

Speaker 1 (02:15:58):
Mean, yeah, well you, know we don't. Know THERE'S i
think there's certain. Directors if you give him more, money
you're still going to get the lesser budget looking kind of.
Movie BUT, pm you, know WHEN i was talking To,
Joseph i've seen a lot of their. Movies, also they
were very. Candy they, Said, okay we know we need

(02:16:20):
to have kind of LIKE X x AND x AND,
x either for the trailer or just you, know for
for the purposes of, sales and they sort of knew
what they, needed And wings gave them what they needed
to sell the, movies but he also elevated them as.
Well SO i kind OF i like to think that

(02:16:42):
When joe Was joseph was telling me about allowing him
to have. Freedom it was it was legit and And
wings had a blast doing those, movies all of.

Speaker 2 (02:16:52):
Them, YEAH i. Think and also the other one you
said THAT i think your collective thought was the best
one living to. Die there's sort of interesting moments in
that movie, where even though it's got nothing to do
with the plot and it's just leading into another, scene
there is this like expressionist dance for like three minutes

(02:17:12):
that he, films when all these sort of neon hues and.
Things and then there's a scene in the back of
a makeshift casino THAT'S i, know it's like a bunch
of guys around a, table but it's almost set up
like that dog playing, cards. Painting you. Know there's there's
LITTLE i don't know Whether i'm being pretentious looking too
deep into this, stuff but there seems to be some

(02:17:33):
references in there THAT i see the little artist In
wings kind of coming.

Speaker 1 (02:17:37):
Out, well i'll give You i'll give you a taste of.
That there's that scene WHERE i think he's talking. Again
i've seen so many of, them they kind of blind,
together BUT i think he's talking to an informant at
This Neon Sign. Graveyard, yes and it's a scene that
he really liked, because in a, sense he was living

(02:17:57):
in the you, Know. Vegas the scene was taking place
in A vegas, graveyard not where bodies were, buried but
Where neon was, buried the symbols Of vegas were. Buried
and he was always looking for stuff like that In
vegas that he could take advantage, of because at the
end of the, DAY i don't think we're wrong in
calling that movie sort of a, tragedy, right AND i

(02:18:19):
Think wings was in touch with that aspect of the.
Story there's another quickie thing WHEN i think he And
darcy De moss are riding on horseback and the snow
and stuff like.

Speaker 2 (02:18:30):
That, yeah something his cabin That i'm not quite, sure
having lived In, Vegas i'm not quite sure whether snowy
cabins meant to.

Speaker 1 (02:18:36):
Be but, yes BUT i think that they knew that
there was going to be some, snow and he just
said this might make for an interesting, moment, yes, montage
just to sort of maybe make it look a little.
Different you. Know wings also was trying to work against,
EXPECTATIONS i think from time to.

Speaker 2 (02:18:55):
Time oh, yeah most, DEFINITELY i think you can tell
that from his. Films, definitely do You steve have a
personal favorite and there's Some do you have two or
three films that when you think Of, wings you're gonna
you're gonna put on and enjoy.

Speaker 1 (02:19:09):
From His, well it's always what the vice squad is
always going to be probably the big boy on the.
BLOCK i still don't know what to, help what to
make of Tough guys don't. Dance but If i'm going
to watch something Four wings and, again all the performances
are really good in. THAT i like That living To
die is one of. Them you, KNOW i really like the,

(02:19:29):
insider you, know even though he only has one real
scene in. It, yeah he's so great in. It and
by the, way he was scared to death to do.

Speaker 2 (02:19:37):
It, Oh i'm sure it's.

Speaker 1 (02:19:39):
Sort of making a little bit of a comeback with,
that because, uh this is not a secret certainly talking
about the movie that you know he was he was drinking,
yep and and that was a big deal in a big.
Movie and and he was a little i think intimidated
by the directorial firepower and all also the firepower of the.

(02:20:01):
Cast BUT i love watching that. SCENE i just in
a SENSE i can see. HIM i know he's making a, comeback,
right you, know as an a lister in that and
it's great to watch because you know he just he
prepped obviously and he let it go as Being russell.

(02:20:23):
Said and it's a really great. Scene it's also a
good movie and it's a powerful moment in the. Movie,
yes AND i think my one complaint, WAS i, Said,
JESUS i wish they could have had him do at
least one more scene somewhere else in the. Picture. Definitely
i'm kind of fond of as are the house or
nuts of this dopey series he did In canada Called Lightning.

(02:20:44):
Force it was this really cheap shot on, film you,
know edited on, video probably posted on, video kind of
syndicated action. Show BUT i don't. Know it's one of
those things like IF i got together with the, guys we'd,
say let's watch a couple of lightning. Rs is just for?
Fun is it? Great? No is it kind of? Crap kind?

(02:21:04):
Of but it's just enjoyable AND i know he had
the time of his life making.

Speaker 2 (02:21:08):
It it's thirteen hours Of. Wings it's thirteen episodes Of. Wings,
yeah and then it found to be some fascinating, stuff
aren't it?

Speaker 3 (02:21:14):
That?

Speaker 1 (02:21:15):
YEAH i mean it's it's, listen it's ninety syndicated, television
right or late, EIGHTIES i don't remember, which but one
or the other ninety one to ninety, two it was,
yeah there you. Go but he had a lot of
fun up, there and he just, said, yeah we we
didn't have time to think about, it you, know they
just they just they were out there to. Play.

Speaker 2 (02:21:34):
Yeah you, know a fascinating. Guy AND i cannot wait
for your. Documentary he did such a great job With King.
Cohen and the fact that it's, funny you, KNOW i
was and remain an enormous fan Of Larry. Cohen the
fact that your next film was a Wings house a,
Documentary i'm just, thinking, like what other weird corner of

(02:21:57):
my fandom Is steve gonna pick?

Speaker 1 (02:21:59):
Me the idea of doing A pm doc was something
we'd even we had talked about a little bit. Too
who they knew who they, were and they never tried
to become too big for their own, bridges as they,
say or somebody might have said in The western they
knew who they. Were THEY i think they inched up
the budget ladder a, bit.

Speaker 3 (02:22:22):
But.

Speaker 1 (02:22:22):
GENERALLY i think when they did, that it's just to
provide maybe bigger or better and more commercial. Action they
knew what they, were they knew what they were. TRYING i,
mean they were Like Roger korman in that. Sense they
never really tried to be. Too they didn't try to
go beyond their own. PARAMETERS i think. No and you,
know one of the things That i'm sure you've talked,
about Because i've heard this so it can't be a,

(02:22:44):
secret is that there is somebody In europe who's found
about thirty of their.

Speaker 2 (02:22:49):
Negatives, Yes i'm in contact with. Him Cordeo orrich's name,
is and he works For Focus media and they've been
putting OUT pm entertainment films on because over In germany
And switzerland in that. Area he's In, switzerland but they
mainly play to The german, market which is a big action.
Market they have what they call media, books and they

(02:23:09):
look like. Books they have soft covers and, everything but
that this are. Inside so they're slightly different to The
blu rays we have over. Here even the box sets
that we have over here and the extras on The
blu rays are really just like. This So claudio has
called Up Gary daniels or called Up don The Dragon
wilson Or Art comarcho of these people and interviewed them like,
this and then you just get the kind of zoom

(02:23:30):
call on the so's they're a little rough around the,
edges but, yes they've cleaned up the thirty five. Mill
the films look. Fantastic it's very good considering we don't
have any of these movies high. Deaf AND i think
his plan now at least is to put out at
least forty TWO i think he's found forty two thirty

(02:23:51):
five mil versions of these movies and he's trying to
source the rest of, them so he has at least
half of the.

Speaker 1 (02:23:58):
Movie they're fighting the negatives and they're doing their scans
from the. Negatives these movies are going to be. Revelation
these these you, know blu rays or whatever they're gonna,
be are gonna be revelations because all we saw WAS
vhs you, know technology at work AND vhs, transfers you,

(02:24:18):
know and you would get sizzle and the reds and you,
know and they also used a lot of fog filter
which didn't translate to tape terribly. Well but if they
if they're going to the. Nags these will seem like
almost different. Movies they're gonna look so, good they're gonna look,
fantastic and they. Do exciting as a fan to know
that that's, coming because you, go, well how great is?
This BECAUSE i watched a movie On viniger, syndrome a

(02:24:42):
vinegar syndrome movie the other night with my producing Partners Blue,
vengines and none of us had seen and it's it
has its. Charms but again it looks so. Fantastic you,
know it was in the proper aspect ratio and it
was you, KNOW i think they had they were they
were making the scan from the. NEGATIVES i sound like
a broken record, here but as a VAN i look

(02:25:06):
forward to sort of re experiencing THE pm movies looking
the way That i'm Sure Rick heeppen was hoping that
they would.

Speaker 2 (02:25:14):
Look oh, Yeah and that's WHAT i mean is is
so they put. Out it's the only Difficult the only
difficult thing is this that they're mainly being released In.
Europe to import them, independently so in other, words to
go on to a USER, vpn go on A german,
website buy them and ship them over because the euro

(02:25:34):
is stronger than the. Dollar and also because they're the
pricing is different over. There to import, them you're paying
like sixty five bucks a. Disc it's it's cost. Prohibitive
there is a website over here called Brother belile dot,
Com Little henlot another that must have imported them themselves
or worked directly with a, distributor and they have had

(02:25:56):
some of. Them so The ring Of fire trilogy box
that is still available on, There Deadly breed is still
available on, there And firepower is still available on the
out and those are more like thirty thirty four bucks a,
DESK i, think AND i think The ring Of fire
trilogy is seventy one so cheaper than shipping them over you.

Speaker 1 (02:26:15):
KNOW i think if you're a movie, lover you, know
and you're not, SNOOTY i, mean if you enjoy you,
know grindhouse stuff and for type stuff LIKE i grew up. With,
yeah you want you want to see these, movies you
want to see them look. GOOD i mean for guys like.
Us it's a great time to be a fan and
to be a, collector because While i'm not enormously crazy

(02:26:37):
about the twenty first, century as a movie, fan it's
a fantastic time to be around because of all the
advancements in terms of scanning and replication and you, know
digging hard enough to find the negatives and to go
back to. That so, yeah as a, fan it's a great.

(02:26:58):
Time it's a great time to be, around and it's
a great and and hardcore fans will spend the. Money
we want to see our you, know our darlings looking
the best they could possibly. Look and so again bringing
it back TO pm and what's possibly on the, horizon
it's exciting to maybe see these movies in a way
that we've never seen them. Before oh that's. Exciting it's

(02:27:21):
like it's exciting to see old stuff look new, again you.

Speaker 2 (02:27:23):
Know oh, YEAH i MEAN i cannot. WAIT i see
it in the next five, years someone discovering these movies
and going can you believe these? Stunts can you believe
they they? Did BECAUSE i don't THINK i think people
think the first time anyone jumped a bus was in,
speed you know WHAT i. MEAN i don't think that
they know that there was sort of b movies out

(02:27:44):
there ramping city buses through big walls of fire and
driving cars out of. BUILDING i think when people realize
that's the. Talent, yeah, fascinating fascinating films out there THAT
i cannot wait for people to be able to sit
down and watch On Blu. Ray and the market ful of. Him,
Yeah and the More wings we can get out On Blu,
ray the. BETTER i, mean you, know to have living

(02:28:06):
to die and on the odd of dying and even.
Kill his edge also known as blood, money which pass
him up With, zada which is an interesting.

Speaker 1 (02:28:14):
Parent oh, yeah a Little Robert zadari. Sidebar WHEN i
first moved out To california From New york back in the,
eighties the mid, eighties WHEN i was, YOUNGER i used to, say,
Well i'm going to go to the gym out, here
And Roberts zadar was a member of that, gym and
he would show up and kind of walk up and

(02:28:36):
down and sort of show off his muscles and stuff like.
That And i'm literally, going who the fuck is this?
Guy BECAUSE i had not seen him in anything, yet,
right and he was just this very Bizarre california character
to this transplant To New yorker and then you, know
we started seeing him in movies and you, know the

(02:28:56):
rest is.

Speaker 2 (02:28:57):
History, steve thanks again so much for for Talking. Wings
with us and sharing a little bit from the. Documentary
can't wait to see The Wings houses. Documentary it's gonna be.
Great was there anything that you? Know his passing kind
of you had an idea that you wanted to do
something more with, him and then his passing has kind
of put.

Speaker 1 (02:29:15):
A, oh we we you know you've got everything you. Needed,
Yeah i'm happy to report he saw. It he you,
KNOW i, said study he wanted to throw something at.
Me he, said, NO i want to hug. You so
that was. That that was a nice compliment from, him
because you, know you want him to like the. WORK i,
mean you want everybody like your. Work that's just. Natural

(02:29:37):
but you, know it's nice that he liked.

Speaker 2 (02:29:39):
IT i think there's a clip you have in the
trailer where he says something along the lines of you
see and now they're doing a movie of my life
or something like. That and again in Typical wings, fashion
because he doesn't hide too, MUCH i CAN i could
tell just from the way he said it how much
that actually meant to, him like, EMOTIONALLY i, think and

(02:29:59):
how much that meant to His.

Speaker 1 (02:30:02):
One of my favorite moments in any movie because it's
touching and, human But it's also profound is that last
line In patent Where patton is walking towards the camera
and he, says, old glory is. Fleeting AND i think
if you're in the movie business or THE tv, business
sometimes it is fleeting and it kind of goes. Away

(02:30:25):
AND i think In wings's, case it gave him a
chance to get curtain. Calls we had a screening Of
Vice squad at The Egyptian theater In hollywood some months. Ago,
Yeah i've seen That Gary swatson And wings were on
stage to talk About Vice squad after the. Movie and
what was great about it was it Gave wings as

(02:30:47):
well As gary an opportunity to get a bit of
a curtain. Call that was one of the most rewarding
things for me About King cohen and going around With
larry to a number of these festivals to see That
larry was get these curtain, calls you, know BECAUSE i
Think larry, felt AND i think everybody who isn't working
all the time feels like they were maybe they were,
forgotten and they haven't been.

Speaker 2 (02:31:09):
FOR i think it's wonderful these people need to be.
Celebrated they've they've given us such joy and such life
and such and films that will never be. Replicated, well you,
know we live in a world now where a movie
is either forty million or forty. Cents there's there's no
four million dollar movies really in the same way that

(02:31:29):
they used to be the old ones here and, there
but not not not in not in the same.

Speaker 1 (02:31:33):
Way LIKE i said, before we live in great times
to be, Fans, yeah we get a chance to have
these movies have their new curtain. Calls, yeah you, know
and looking better than, ever, younger, fresher and better than.
Ever so you, know, again it's not a terrible, thing
and it's you, know to your credit that you're you're
choosing to celebrate this.

Speaker 2 (02:31:53):
Stuff, Yeah, no, definitely and we all. Should AND i
think that's the beauty of podcasting and the availability of.
DISTRIBUTION i think that's the one thing THAT i don't
think my generation. TAKES i think we don't take it for.
GRANTED i think a lot of the younger generation take
it for. Granted AND i think our generation is still, saying,
no wait a, minute this is this feels like a.

(02:32:16):
Loophole it feels like the billionaires and millionaires sort of
gave us The internet and didn't realize quite what they
were giving us with YouTube and podcasts and streaming and other,
stuff and that's where my heart. Lives that's that's that's
that's What i'll keep championing until till they pulled the,
plot until they, go, wait did we give these people
a bunch of free options to do their own? Creativity,

(02:32:39):
no we can't do. That you, know they'll come after
us at a certain, point but we've got to keep
keep using the airwaves until all the proverbial, airwaves until They,
yeah it's.

Speaker 1 (02:32:47):
Nice it's it's nice to share it, Too, yes it really.
Is you never know somebody's going to listen to some
of this stuff or see something and they, go, OH
i want to see more of. That so you, know
you're in a, physician you, know influencing the, sounds so you,
know arm. Twisty but the thing that's the reason WHY

(02:33:10):
i do all the commentaries THAT i do is THAT
i want to share my enthusiasm for something and say
WHY i think it's, interesting even if the movies sometimes
are not home. Runs, right there's a thing that used to.
Exist and Then i'll shut up and we'll go and say,
goodbye and all that stuff is that WHEN i would
go to the movies in the old, day sometimes you

(02:33:31):
see a movie that doesn't completely, work but it was
WHAT i called an interesting. Failure, yes AND i think
today movies that that doesn't happen very. Often you, know
the movie either sticks to your forearms or your skullar
or whatever when you walk out of the, theater or it.
Doesn't AND i find that it doesn't for the most.
Part so that the idea of sharing the ideas OF

(02:33:54):
pm and why they were good because it was real after,
all and talking about this stuff is going to because
you know you might you might create some interest on
a person who hadn't thought about.

Speaker 2 (02:34:04):
It, yeah and we people keep talking about living in divided,
times and we definitely. Do but doing this for the
last thirteen, YEARS i have only only built. Connections i've
only only expanded my friend group across the, globe have

(02:34:25):
people in multiple COUNTRIES i could go hang. With Great
podcasting has never made me, rich has never made me,
famous AND i don't want. IT i don't need either
of those two things to. Happen but it has given me,
life friends and connections in a way THAT i think
people underested. Me steve thank you for being one of.

Speaker 1 (02:34:43):
Them it's a well. Thanks, likewise it's a chance to
expand expand your world, too which is.

Speaker 2 (02:34:48):
Nice definitely always. Good, well best of luck with The
Wings house of.

Speaker 1 (02:34:53):
Doc Working Class actor is.

Speaker 2 (02:34:55):
The, title Working Class. Actor, yeah let's reconnect when it
comes out so that we can give it a proper
review and Once i've seen and, yeah thank you so
much for your time. TONIGHT i didn't know who to
turn to who could speak For, wings And i'll speak About,
wings AND i know it's still raw for, You so
thank you so much.

Speaker 1 (02:35:12):
For you, KNOW i THINK i think you would think
it was.

Speaker 2 (02:35:16):
Okay, YEAH i hope, so.

Speaker 1 (02:35:18):
YEAH ga talk to? Him, sure what the hell do
you that kind of?

Speaker 2 (02:35:22):
Guy?

Speaker 1 (02:35:23):
John thanks so.

Speaker 2 (02:35:24):
Much all, Right well we're still going here on THE
Pm entertainment Podcast Wingshouser celebration and memorial And art Of dying.
Coverage that, Was Steve, Mitchell what a fantastic conversation that.
Was AS i feel like we are putting a ton
of effort and a ton of passion and genuine love

(02:35:44):
for this, movie for this, actor for this production company
into this. EPISODE i hope you all, agree AND i
hope you'll all go rate and review us on all
the podcast platforms that allow ratings and, reviewing Mainly apple,
podcasts would be a, huge huge. Help and don't forget to, like, share,

(02:36:04):
comment and all that good stuff on social. Media all, right,
now we have our conversation with the Excellent kathleen Kim,
munt and then we'll be going back to finish up
With Adam thorne about The act Of.

Speaker 7 (02:36:19):
Dying thank you for having.

Speaker 6 (02:36:21):
Me it's nice to be here to give these films some.
Homage and, yeah they were definitely a niche and there's
always a, need i think for independent filmmaking given the
commercial success and big budget. Blockbusters they're just so few

(02:36:46):
and far, between and there are so many creators out.
There so it's just wonderful that there was a platform
back then for the independent filmmaker and so that story.

Speaker 7 (02:37:00):
Like these can be told and told in a.

Speaker 6 (02:37:02):
Way that that didn't seem you, know schlocky or or low,
rent but that they were that they were done with
a lot of, professionals and they were they were still
made and still seeing and now they get to have
this resurgence which actually validates everything that we did in the,

(02:37:26):
beginning because you, know.

Speaker 7 (02:37:28):
As a, ACTOR i.

Speaker 6 (02:37:29):
Kind of feel, like, oh, well If i'm not an
a list, Actor i'm no. Good and that's not true
because there's just you, know there's it's it's just a,
list and and a lot of those, people you, know
don't always stay on that, list or they don't that
list or or.

Speaker 7 (02:37:50):
Whatever but it's it's kind of.

Speaker 6 (02:37:52):
Nice LIKE i look at my own, career just speaking
about me, PERSONALLY i you, know it's Been i've worked a,
lot but Then i've also really had a lot of
a life AND i appreciate that BECAUSE i, get you,
know kind of pseudo.

Speaker 7 (02:38:09):
Recognized i'm like recognizable adjacent.

Speaker 2 (02:38:14):
The right kind of people recognize. You the people who
watch the good movies recognize.

Speaker 6 (02:38:18):
You When i'm obviously When i'm at a convention or
it's things like. That people know WHO i. Am but
as for like a regular, Life i've had a really great,
one And i've also had a really fun career WHERE
i can go back and do shows like this and
really the nostalgia is, killer and the people were, amazing

(02:38:41):
and you, know it's it's like any. Job, really it's
about the connections and the relationships that are formed during
that particular time in your life that really need. Something
it doesn't always it's not always the, job it's it's the, people.
Right so, yeah so it was really an honor to

(02:39:05):
be invited to do wings. Documentary AND i just actually
ran into the editor about a month ago at a
premiere For No, address a film that my friend Kristanva
lokin is in about the almost crisis in this. Country
And bill happened to be there and he was, Like
oh my, God i've been looking at you all day

(02:39:25):
long because he's been in the writing up the elevator
together at THE, dga and it.

Speaker 7 (02:39:34):
Was just, like you, know and he's, like oh my,
god THE pm.

Speaker 6 (02:39:38):
Movies i'm, like, Oh i'm going to be going To,
Cologne germany In august to.

Speaker 7 (02:39:41):
Do a premiere For.

Speaker 6 (02:39:43):
Alexa and you, know the remastering and redigitalization of all
these films is.

Speaker 7 (02:39:49):
Really giving them a whole new.

Speaker 6 (02:39:51):
Life AND i really appreciate people like you who have
a fondness for, them who are giving a tired podcast
platform to.

Speaker 7 (02:39:58):
Them so thank. You it's very.

Speaker 2 (02:40:00):
Cool oh, well thank, You, no that's very. Kind so
your first movie WITH pm was The art Of, Dying
and how did you get cost in that how are
you aware OF pmn stainment films in?

Speaker 7 (02:40:11):
GENERAL i believe my agent sent me in for an.

Speaker 6 (02:40:15):
Audition AND i do remember this audition BECAUSE i was
married To, lorenzo AND i showed them the sides and
the scene that they chose had me holding a gun
on wings on his.

Speaker 7 (02:40:32):
Character AND i mean.

Speaker 6 (02:40:36):
This is back in the, nineties so you, know everything
back then was literally hitting this tipping point of, RISK
i would, say of taking risks and doing things that
you would probably they not probably never do that you

(02:40:56):
would never do. Today and it was different because every
audition was in the. Room there was no such thing
as self. Tape it was always prepare. You you, know
you were in great shape if you could put the
sides down and not be holding onto them.

Speaker 7 (02:41:16):
And using a, prop you, know and you know with a.

Speaker 6 (02:41:22):
GUN i mean these days most people would just go
in and use their. Hand, well had just bought me
a lady smith and wasn't and it was such a
great little. Handgun it just bit in my hand. Perfectly

(02:41:44):
it was so, uh you, KNOW i just fit right
in my. Purse so WHEN i walked, IN i, said,
LOOK i had a. Prop it's a.

Speaker 7 (02:41:52):
Gun it's not. LOADED i will show it to, you
but first of, all take it out or.

Speaker 6 (02:41:59):
Comfortable was me using that and they were, like oh, yeah,
definitely SO i, did SO i opened.

Speaker 11 (02:42:07):
Them it's in any, chamber but it just it has
it gives the power the way a propagatives, power the
way costume gives the actor the sense of, character the
way lighting helps you build the, mood the way you,
know things like that that that actually are really, worthy uh.

Speaker 7 (02:42:32):
Tools for an actor to.

Speaker 6 (02:42:34):
Use SO i did that scene with this Lady smith
And wesson right In wing's face because he was there
in the audition actually doing and and it brought the juice. Right,
so but it was but that was A i asked
b it Was wing He wing's. House it was a

(02:42:58):
big casting. Director in other, words, well.

Speaker 7 (02:43:01):
Like a casting.

Speaker 6 (02:43:02):
DIRECTOR i think there's a there's definitely a solid boundary
that should be just nothing but respect and making people feel.

Speaker 7 (02:43:11):
Safe they see too many.

Speaker 6 (02:43:14):
Screwball acts long to you, know really welcome that of.
Activity BUT i read the room AND i, asked so
it really it gave him the, shivers and it gave
me the, power AND i think it also got me the.

Speaker 2 (02:43:30):
Job so, yeah oh that's fantastic and so so, yeah,
right it was all about.

Speaker 7 (02:43:40):
That I'M la. Board it's very much Like texas, here but.

Speaker 2 (02:43:47):
Different la is a great. PLACE i LOVE. La i've
been several times to you're in the, room you're doing
the scene For. Wings who else was? There did you
get to meet sort Of joseph And rick straight off the?
Bat were they were they the ones kind of orchestrating
the casting or were there are other people that you, KNOW.

Speaker 6 (02:44:03):
I don't Think joseph Or rick were in the. ROOM
i think they were really just leaving it up To.
Wings there might have been an assistant in there filming
it because he put everything on like A vcr so
they can get. Back and you, Know Rick peppen was
THE dp Of space, right he was the camera, operator you,

(02:44:29):
know he shot, everything so he was just always on.

Speaker 7 (02:44:33):
Set he was never really And joseph did.

Speaker 6 (02:44:37):
A lot of directing, too so he. Was but, YEAH
i mean that place was a bonafide. Factory that was
such a bustling place to, work and my brother ended
up working there quite a. Bit he worked on about

(02:44:59):
eighty films FOR pm and his one of his best,
friends well who he met ON, pm who was already
Employing Gil.

Speaker 7 (02:45:09):
Wadsworth you should get these guys on as Like.

Speaker 2 (02:45:15):
Crew if you would love to would love?

Speaker 7 (02:45:17):
To yeah, now And lorenzo.

Speaker 6 (02:45:20):
TOO i, mean like they found out THAT i was
married To lorenzo pretty, quickly and then that's when my
relationship With joseph really started to develop because.

Speaker 7 (02:45:31):
He really Wanted lorenzo and.

Speaker 6 (02:45:35):
He started talking to me about What lorenzo would want
to do AND i, said, well you, know he's a
black belt in three forms of martial, arts so anything with.

Speaker 7 (02:45:48):
That and THEN i think that came after how.

Speaker 2 (02:45:52):
Awhere were you of sort OF Pm entertainment or was
it just you just went in completely doc pop from
obviously the edition and knowing who you were going to
be working, With you.

Speaker 12 (02:46:02):
KNOW i.

Speaker 6 (02:46:04):
DIDN'T i didn't really know any of their movies, really
BUT i knew all the people that were making their, movies,
Right so it was more, LIKE i GUESS i probably
was way more of a pop culture person who just
went to the, movies and on, Occasion lorenzo AND i
would go to A blockbuster and go pick up A

(02:46:26):
vhs for something that was, like, hey, wow we didn't
see this in the movie. Theater where where did this come?
From you, Know mickey was in, this you, know or,
like oh, wow look It's Eric roberts. Again and movie
number five hundred and seventy.

Speaker 2 (02:46:41):
Two oh Bless Eric. Roberts how many movies has he? Done?

Speaker 6 (02:46:46):
Well Eric, roberts he plays my, Dad SO i was
so excited for this movie to come out because he's,
like who doesn't Love eric Robertson who Doesn't who hasn't
already been in An Eric roberts.

Speaker 2 (02:46:58):
Movie, Right he's his own he's his own. Institution it's quite.
Incredible he really.

Speaker 6 (02:47:04):
Is like everybody forget The Kevin bacon. Thing it's we're
all related to.

Speaker 2 (02:47:08):
Air oh, yeah oh, YEAH i mean three. Degrees i'm
probably three degrees From Eric. ROBERTS i mean everyone's done
something With.

Speaker 6 (02:47:16):
ERIC i just worked with, him SO i feel, like,
yeah and he plays my, dad Which Margot robbie just
had happen In, babylon which was. Amazing right WHERE i
was at at that time of my, life in my
early twenties and just really starting to get into the

(02:47:36):
business and work kind of like, steadily it was just
forward momentum for.

Speaker 7 (02:47:43):
ME i was just, Like i've done this that's. Done
now this, okay what's this?

Speaker 2 (02:47:48):
About and especially WITH, pm they made so many, movies you,
know they were making five movies a. Year you, know
there was no time to necessarily sit around and think about.
It and SO i think that it interesting now because
we're able to sit back, and LIKE i, say you're
able to watch out The art of dying over and over,
again go through, it think about it with modern, eyes

(02:48:09):
going back looking at it with modern eyes that may
not have been on set at the, time but it
gives this really interesting dynamic Because wings is showing this
like masculinity in decline kind of thing that was sort
of happening in the, nineties and you're showing this VERY
i think could be seen as quite a feminist position

(02:48:31):
in a. Way so talk a little bit about, That
talk a little bit about the dynamic between you And,
wings and ALSO i think some of the trust that
must have been, Involved, well.

Speaker 7 (02:48:42):
Yeah that's for. Sure there was a lot of. TRUST i, mean.

Speaker 6 (02:48:46):
AND i think it started from the MOMENT i walked into.
That i'd just, show you, know talking to him About,
Look i'm already taking a risk here by bringing in
a prop that could be you, know a just completely, Rejected,
no don't do. That and you, know but he was

(02:49:07):
so welcoming from the get, go and BECAUSE i THINK
i was bringing something to the table that showed.

Speaker 7 (02:49:14):
A lot of.

Speaker 6 (02:49:18):
Courage kind of you, know, like, hey, Look i'm very
comfortable with. This i'm comfortable even traveling with it in
my purse from my.

Speaker 7 (02:49:26):
House to this audition. Room SO i think that because
of both of.

Speaker 6 (02:49:32):
Us having a very strong sense of, self and, yes.

Speaker 7 (02:49:37):
He did want to show a solid vulnerability to his.

Speaker 6 (02:49:41):
Character and with, that the female charunterpart wasn't going to,
fall she was going to rise and lift him. Up
AND i thought that that was a really great dynamic,
too because that was part of our culture and AND i,

(02:50:03):
mean who knows That it's probably just always been a
part of our. Culture we need to raise each other
up when someone's feeling weak and, vulnerable and the strong
need to come in and go, here we got.

Speaker 7 (02:50:19):
You whether it's a man or a, woman you, know
either or it really doesn't. MATTER i.

Speaker 13 (02:50:23):
DON'T i don't know, that you, know because in the
end of this, Movie i'm like the damsel in distress
tied to the train tracks of the.

Speaker 2 (02:50:35):
Hockeys, yes, now.

Speaker 6 (02:50:39):
Now Burning man, style, right it's, literally LIKE i, mean
there's so much metaphor burn the witch at the, stake you,
know there's anything to do with, fire is just so
violent and horrific to begin, with.

Speaker 7 (02:50:58):
And IT'S i really loved What wings.

Speaker 6 (02:51:01):
Did with with making his character just absolutely normal and
approachable and, fallible a wounded, hero a reluctant. Hero it
is so much more interesting than some you, Know dudley do,
right who's just always got it going on and is completely.

(02:51:25):
Unrealistic SO i think that what THE pm movies really
were about as a whole is, that, yeah you, know
we're human and people they don't always make. It they
don't you, know there there's there's things that they can,
happen and if you if you really really try, hard

(02:51:47):
you can make maybe make it. Stop Right like that
was like the hero of every one of their.

Speaker 7 (02:51:53):
Films was they had they had issues each.

Speaker 2 (02:51:58):
Hero, yeah, yeah, no. Definitely And wings also seem to
have a great sense of. Humor is that that fair to?
SAY i mean right down to the WHEN i think
of you, know we talk about that, ending and we
talk about how the AS i said, before it's sort
of A Wings houser movie wrestling with A pm, movie,
right and it's sort of like that Die hard ending

(02:52:20):
where the girlfriend and the boyfriend are back together and so.
On but just to make it a Little, wings there's
a guy in because it's also a commentary On. Hollywood the,
place not the movie in the, factory but the, Place Los, Angeles.
Hollywood so right at the end there's a guy with
a pink, speeder one that's right up his buck crack

(02:52:43):
as he as he roller blades through the, scene which
feels like a very kind Of Los angeles and the
nineties kind of thing to. Happen, anyway right down to
the point THAT i Asked joseph about that, SCENE i,
said is that like did that just? Happen And wings
kept in the? Movie like did someone just roll blade
through the? Center Did wings put it? There and he,
SAID i Think wings put it. There so that to

(02:53:04):
me is just a great way to kind of you,
know then he pans off to The hollywood. Sign it's
just a great way to end the movie to kind
of be like in this city of, madness you know
WHAT i, mean in the city of just sort of, random,
wonderful bizarre things. Happening there's also this sort OF cd
weird dark, underbelly and then there's people at two a

(02:53:25):
m rollerblading around in a pink Speed you.

Speaker 6 (02:53:28):
KNOW i was In hollywood last night at The Dolby,
theater walking Down Hollywood boulevard From Lussin franks down The
dolby and then back, again and it is literally still
the same it. Is it is, that and THAT i
thought was one of the most realistic ad ins that

(02:53:52):
he could have, done because that is the truth in this,
city especially down.

Speaker 7 (02:53:57):
There it's a.

Speaker 6 (02:53:59):
Circus and the circus doesn't care if the if the
elephants got. LOOD i, mean well they do care if
the elephants got, loose BUT i mean it's it's a
it's a loose.

Speaker 7 (02:54:12):
Circus that's What hollywood. Is it's the The Big tent
is JUST i don't, know the, sky the all.

Speaker 1 (02:54:21):
And.

Speaker 6 (02:54:21):
Everyone it's it's literally like it's cut some kind of
invisible bubble around it that when you enter, it it
just says to you you can be whatever you want to.

Speaker 7 (02:54:33):
Be nobody cares right. Here you're In hollywood right, now
so you can be as, free delicious as you feel like.

Speaker 6 (02:54:41):
It and you're actually adding to the scene by doing,
that and it's. Appreciated it's not look it's looked at,
like oh, yeah who's got a five? SPOT i want
to give it to that.

Speaker 2 (02:54:55):
Guy, well it's it's it's funny for all the for
all the end of or a lower budget people That
i've talked, to whether it's, actors movie, makers, producers whatever it,
is it's very without getting again too serious or off,
topic but it's always interesting to me that that ceedy
underbelly or whatever you want to call it of the

(02:55:17):
art of dying is kind of commenting ON i suppose
the casting couch or whatever kind of phrase catch or
phrase people use it. For it was obviously really interesting
to see. That And i'm not saying that it didn't
happen in independent. FILMMAKING i don't. Know but when you
look at someone like A Roger, corman when you look
at someone like A child's, band when you look at
someone Like Lloyd, kaufman or when you look At joseph And,

(02:55:41):
rick And i'm just picking out these guys who ran
like the independence compared to the big bob buster. Guys
there haven't been And i'm not saying there, are but
there haven't been a lot of scandals about those. Guys
it's interesting that the scandals have actually come about in
what would be perceived as the main stream. Industry but

(02:56:01):
the guys who were running and gunning and making these
little independent films and films that often feature violence and
sex and and you, know gore or whatever that you
would assume on set there was no protections and everyone
was mistreated and everyone just kind of showed. Up, actually
when there's a documentary On Roger corman or a documentary on,

(02:56:23):
people actresses especially show up to support. THEM i, Mean
Pam grea talks About Roger corman giving her a career
over and praising him and everything. Else you would think
so watching the movies she did and some of the
movies that came, out that there was more exploitation. There
but actually the exploitation seems to have happened in the,
majors not in the mind AM i AM i right

(02:56:44):
in that did you feel safe and comfortable some of
the scenes you were asked to do and things and
in movies.

Speaker 6 (02:56:52):
You, know my mom Is Abby dalton are and still
but her first films were For Roger, Corman All, Night
The Viking, women.

Speaker 1 (02:57:06):
In The Sea.

Speaker 6 (02:57:07):
Serpent she started her career In Roger corman. FILMS i
started my career in A Roger corman, film starring In
phoenix The, warrior WHICH i think they changed the title
to She wolves of The Wasteland's.

Speaker 2 (02:57:27):
Phoenix The warrior On. IMDb it's Still phoenix The warrior
on im but he probably Really.

Speaker 7 (02:57:35):
I'd like seeing it ON vhs and they change.

Speaker 2 (02:57:38):
It but different.

Speaker 14 (02:57:39):
Titles, yeah you, know maybe it's because those guys made
movies that got their yah yaws out within the confines
of the.

Speaker 6 (02:57:52):
Creativity you. Know Obviously shakespeare In love was not doing
it For Harvey. Einstein he needed to be doing something.

Speaker 7 (02:58:03):
More along the p and, lines you, know and then
he probably would have, well who, knows he was just
a despicable.

Speaker 2 (02:58:10):
Human so let's come.

Speaker 6 (02:58:11):
Back yeah, yeah complete chewed, up gum rolled and cat.
Hair but he's just you, KNOW i, Mean i've never
even met that, guy SO i don't KNOW i ever
got into those, rooms And.

Speaker 7 (02:58:26):
I'm GLAD i. Didn't i'm GLAD i just had a.

Speaker 6 (02:58:30):
Strong always and just, had you, know somebody that was
looking out for. Me and my mom always, said just you,
know don't do things that make you, uncomfortable just don't do,
them just say. No.

Speaker 2 (02:58:42):
Yeah AND i think for for, us AS i, say
who watch a lot of the more what would be
considered be great or exploitive, films it's nice to know
that we can watch them and to some extent have
a sense of safety about watching, them rather than feeling
that that was true exploitation. HAPPENING i guess it isn't that?

Speaker 6 (02:59:03):
Nice isn't it nice to know that you can like
actually be a fan of something and talk to the
people that you're a fan of and still remain a
fan after you hear all the.

Speaker 7 (02:59:12):
Bts you, know it's.

Speaker 6 (02:59:14):
Like because a lot of time it can be serious
bullshit and then you're having to promote something or you're
just wishing it would go. Away and, FORTUNATELY i mean
all the stunts that WERE pm entertainment were.

Speaker 7 (02:59:32):
Practical there WAS.

Speaker 6 (02:59:34):
Dgi was not a available or affordable even if it,
was you, know for these, guys and they didn't use.

Speaker 7 (02:59:43):
It so everything he sees like.

Speaker 6 (02:59:47):
That's a real person doing, it running from that, explosion
being ramped on an air, ramp or being pulled by a,
wire or falling off the, building you, know burning high
falls were legitimate burning high, falls and, yeah there's it's

(03:00:09):
weird because you know they're smaller, films so you kind
of but you're still risking your whole. Life and people
were safe on.

Speaker 7 (03:00:21):
These movies because they really took the.

Speaker 6 (03:00:24):
Time they call it the pyramid, quality, time or, money
and they say you can't have all, three BUT i
think that you can definitely do your best to.

Speaker 7 (03:00:38):
Make that.

Speaker 6 (03:00:39):
Happen AND i think Because rick And joseph were so
good at this.

Speaker 7 (03:00:47):
Formula that they.

Speaker 6 (03:00:48):
Had created and the people that they had working for,
them and everyone took it, very very. Seriously it WAS i,
mean we didn't have intimacy, coordinators choreographers whatever they call.
Them BUT i never FELT i never felt, compromised AND

(03:01:09):
i never felt, exploited AND i always felt really championed
and it was always an honored to be asked back
to do.

Speaker 2 (03:01:18):
That, yeah and last couple of things On art Of. Dying,
obviously AS i, Said JOSEPH i think originally wrote the.
Script wings has then stated in interviews that he wrote
a lot of it as, well as he felt there
was sort of some lost in translation, stuff but also
some stuff that he wanted to bring to the. Table
but it also feels watching it AND i feel like
this way watching a lot of wings hous and movies

(03:01:40):
that there was a lot of improv as, well and
a lot of exploration al most of the characters and
things in the. Scenes how much was on the page
and how much of it did you And wings kind
of figure out?

Speaker 6 (03:01:51):
YOURSELVES i, HONESTLY i don't really remember improving too, much
but we probably got whatever was on the.

Speaker 7 (03:02:01):
Page and because he was.

Speaker 6 (03:02:04):
The director and the, ACTOR i think he would allow
for you, know like keep it, rolling you, know just
whatever feels, Natural and, yeah it. Was it was just
completely a pleasant. Experience there was never a moment WHERE i, Thought,
wow we're really going off book here and.

Speaker 7 (03:02:25):
Where is this going?

Speaker 6 (03:02:26):
NOW i MEAN i always felt like we were going
towards the same. Destination it's sometimes been Prob i'm a,
writer SO i have always really respected.

Speaker 7 (03:02:40):
THAT i know HOW i toil.

Speaker 6 (03:02:44):
Over words WHEN i, write and you want a, rhythm
you want a freshness in every.

Speaker 7 (03:02:54):
Scene and what can?

Speaker 6 (03:02:56):
HAPPEN i think sometimes when people google lot of improv
and you might be repeating words that were in a
scene before that you were never, in and how they
cut the film together and people are saying the.

Speaker 7 (03:03:11):
SAME i don't. Know there's just certain things that.

Speaker 6 (03:03:14):
Can happen along those. Lines so they always had a script,
supervisor WHICH i feel for any independent, filmmaker that's one
job title that you don't want to scrimp. On that's
a quality job that really. Keeps they call it The

(03:03:35):
bible for a reason is because it's the, words the
words that were foiled over by somebody who counted them
and looked at them and made the page count right
and signed off on it and, said, okay this is
The it's not it's not a. BLUEPRINT i mean it

(03:03:55):
is because there's three. Movies you make the movie, right
the movie.

Speaker 7 (03:03:59):
You, film in the movie you.

Speaker 6 (03:04:00):
Edit, yes it is the blueprint for the actors to
follow and, get as you, know letter perfect as possible
without making it seem.

Speaker 7 (03:04:15):
Awkward BUT i think that.

Speaker 6 (03:04:20):
You, KNOW i think that that wings AND. I we
rehearsed our, lines we've broad our. Lines we were very
conscious of what the story, was and yet we still
were able to make it maybe seem like it was
more improving than it actually.

Speaker 2 (03:04:39):
Was, no it just means that your chemistry on the,
screen but also your some of the dialogue scenes as
what they have such a AND i Know wings had
this tendency in general in his all these, movies but
they have a very naturalistic feel to. Them they have
a very the scene you were talking about where you
are obviously pointing the gun the audio and doesn't know

(03:05:01):
who you, Are are you who you say you are
or is, it you, know a role playing game or
something in that, scene once the, facade once the fact
that you are role playing and it's not a real
thing breaks, down there's a real, genuine just sense of,
NATURALISM i, guess just just a real playful sense of
you guys having genuine chemistry and having genuine like this

(03:05:25):
is like these are lived in characters rather than you,
know these are just two actors doing a. Thing so
AND i always look out for. That it always feels
like when sort Of wings is doing you, know when
he's sat on the beach later and he's ranting about
something in, off you often, wonder you, go, well how
much is that Just wings spouting whatever is on his?

(03:05:46):
Mind or how much was that on the. Page so it's.
Interesting it's very interesting to me BECAUSE i think it
adds a whole extra layer to the. Performances you're both
giving that so much of that was on the page
Because i'm, like that's that's incredible because you both present
it so believably and naturally and and LIKE i, say
you you're both unafraid to show. Vulnerability but you also

(03:06:07):
in a traditional in a genre that was traditionally you,
know filled with masculinity and. Bullshit to be, honest you
bring such you bring such strength and strength and. Vulnerability,
yes but you bring such strength and self assuredness is

(03:06:29):
probably the best the best, way and it works so well.
Counterbalancing AS i, Say wings is kind of confusion where
he finds.

Speaker 6 (03:06:37):
HIMSELF i guess it's about, trust and trust is plays
such a massive part in this type of. Artistry and
and the days are so long on a film set

(03:06:57):
because it just feels like you're moving through. Ether everything
just seems to be on slow, motion even though everything's
happening fast and people are moving and doing their, thing
but they're lighting the scene and you just have to
create this kind of trusting relationship so. Swiftly BUT i

(03:07:19):
think it's Because wings is just, winged AND i JUST
i just adorative instantly because he was so so willing
to play and willing to hear ideas and just like you,
know he's like a big teddy bear guy that just you,
know loves this type of sandbox and because of, that

(03:07:42):
it just made it so relaxed to work with. Him
SO i think that you saw it was such a
comfortability factor that was able to create an instant.

Speaker 7 (03:07:57):
Relationship which and.

Speaker 2 (03:07:59):
Did you guys stay in touch over over the, years
did you become friends or was it really?

Speaker 3 (03:08:03):
While?

Speaker 6 (03:08:05):
No thank you, next, no, okay. No but what's funny
is that his, Girlfriend darcy De, Moss i've known since fifth,
grade sixth, grade but SINCE i was thirteen years, old
and we're still great. Friends AND i brought her on

(03:08:28):
to do to.

Speaker 7 (03:08:29):
Be a part of his documentary as.

Speaker 6 (03:08:31):
Well AND i was, like oh, gosh you're going Called darcy,
too because, yes it's a huge part of his. Life in,
fact That's darcy on the cover of The art Of dying.

Speaker 2 (03:08:46):
In The Red.

Speaker 7 (03:08:46):
Dress, yeah in The Red.

Speaker 2 (03:08:48):
Dress oh that's. Fascinating.

Speaker 8 (03:08:51):
Yeah.

Speaker 2 (03:08:52):
Yeah another thing THAT i noticed in a lot of the,
films you're off and on, horseback and there's always that
in actors when they talk about. It, Well i'd PUT
i could ride a horse on my, resume but Really
i've never been near a. HORSE i assume though you
grew up and or during your acting faith got very
comfortable with, horses just based on some of the scenes

(03:09:14):
you did with. Them is that is that drue or
was it winging it each? Time?

Speaker 6 (03:09:18):
No, No both of my parents were solid. Equestrians my
dad used To my dad grew up In, burbank pointing
like it's right over, there.

Speaker 7 (03:09:32):
And he would mow along and get a.

Speaker 6 (03:09:35):
Quarter and he would immediately take that quarter down to
the stables and go for an hour.

Speaker 7 (03:09:41):
Ride so he grew up. Riding my mom grew.

Speaker 6 (03:09:45):
Up she had An arabian horse Named irp AND i
have the most epic photos of her in this, horse
there's a gorgeous rowan dapple.

Speaker 7 (03:09:57):
Gray and so.

Speaker 6 (03:09:59):
They they were both very horse, people you, know like urban,
COWBOYS i would. Say and SO i grew up in
Toluc lake and you, know really close To. Bourbank SO
i started taking horseback riding lessons WHEN i was in third,
Grade english riding Every wednesday. SCHOOL i got my first

(03:10:22):
horse WHEN i was, fifteen and it was two, horses
so that my mom AND i could ride together all the.
Time SO i am an equestrian through and. Through i've
had several, horses AND i don't have a horse right,
now but i have my girlfriend's horse WHO i ride
all the. Time So i've just always been around them
And i'm, very very comfortable with. THEM i think horses

(03:10:44):
are so beautiful for, cinema and they've been our cinematic friends,
forever AND i think that it adds a certain power
to somebody when you see them on, horseback and it
really gives them some flare when they actually know how
to ride and the horseble and the shot.

Speaker 7 (03:11:08):
Is, cool and it gives it this like you, know
there's something about the.

Speaker 2 (03:11:13):
Horses going back to H pollard And. Douglas pollard's role

(03:11:33):
in the, Movie Weirdly enough is essentially doing all the detective. Work,
yeah he's the one that figures out what it can't
Be Latin jerry who's stabbing the guy because the stab
marks are coming down from the, top so therefore they
have to be a taller, person.

Speaker 5 (03:11:54):
Right which in this kind of, movie when a guy
reads out SOME csi information there that probably was like
right over everybody's, heads including. Wings it's like his characters
like whatever, WELL i mean this.

Speaker 2 (03:12:06):
Is this is sort of the last THING i wanted
to kind of point out about the, movie because it's
interesting that while it has some film noir pretensions and,
uh you, know genre, trappings uh, huh it's he's never a.
Detective wings isn't Like pollard does some. Detective at one,

(03:12:30):
Point pollard's, like he must be filming the, stuff And i'm,
LIKE i don't know how we figured that. Out the
Knife i'll buy because of you, know, Okay I'll i'll
get there's SOME csi shit, there but, LIKE i don't
know where he pulls out of his. Acid he must
be filming the. STUFF i. DON'T i don't really get.

Speaker 5 (03:12:43):
That and he says something Like i'm gonna have people
check every acting school and anyone who's bought in the
major cameras in the last little, while but they're In hollywood's.

Speaker 2 (03:12:53):
Right And Wings wings literally poo poo's That he's just, like,
No i'm not doing. That that sounds like a lot of,
Work like and you sort of say to, yourself, right
but what are you going to? Do and at one,
point you, know AND i think that's the only there's
like one rewrite to this movie away from it being
sort of, perfect and the rewrite would be just a

(03:13:17):
few of those detective, scenes AND i know you would
sort of end up Removing pollard from the film and
replacing and just Making wings kind of a competent. Detective
BUT i, mean if you just added a little bit
of through, line because essentially the way it all works
out is he happens Upon Latin, jerry waits for him
to come out of the, thing Gives chase Lantin jerry

(03:13:40):
is accidentally like mowed down by a car and actually
has his head. Removed and in the it's from a long,
shot but you, see like when the dummy gets hit
between the two, cars you see the head like flip
off and roll down the. Road it's right in the,
background you can't quite see. It But Lan jerry. Dies
and then what's interesting is That and WHY i think

(03:14:01):
the romance Between roscoe And Latin, Jerry machih And Gary
words is That Gary wodz then puts himself in massive
danger by being, like, well Now i'm going to come
after the, detective which is always the stupidest move a
serial killer that nobody knows about because everyone's After Latin,

(03:14:21):
jerry like everyone. Is that's All wings. Knows wings doesn't
even Know roscoe. Exists right, now there is another body that's,
discovered And pollard comes over and, says you see. IT
i told you it can't have Been Latin. Jerry it
must be someone. Else but that's all he. Says they
don't know who it. Is they you, know there's no

(03:14:42):
fingerprints or, whatever, like they don't go, on and it
must be this. Guy Gary wodz just goes to Wings
hous's house and then Follows kathleen Kimm on home and
leaves notes everywhere for Wings. Houser i'm, like if you
hadn't have done that, once you could have kept killing
people because, houses he's got no intention of actually detecting,
Anything so that.

Speaker 5 (03:15:04):
At least leads to how much of a psychopath he, is,
Right it does put him into this weird little like batman,
villain The riddler esque type of, persona though because THERE
i think by the nineties that was sort of. Over
but the, seventies, sixties seventies and eighties there was a
lot of these urban legends of there were snuff filmmakers out,

(03:15:24):
there and you, know history proved that that's not a,
thing but he does it where he's, like But i'm
going to Image hitchcock BECAUSE i do, it And i'm
gonna have this giant film camera on my shoulder AS
i do, it like a super villain would do, it
almost borderline and like a nineteen sixty Seven batman. Villain
the way he talks to them and what he, does

(03:15:45):
and then the very fact that he shows up just
sort of sitting, there talks to the, girlfriend then talks
To wings basically says To, wings, hey you killed that guy,
there and you know, WHY i know right, when and
he just, says, OH i heard it on the new
and its like but he says it in a way
to be like he might as well be like winking really. Hard,
Yes and it's literally a come at me kind of.

(03:16:09):
Statement but of course Immediately wings doesn't get. That he's, like,
oh what a creepy. Guy yeah.

Speaker 2 (03:16:14):
Right, well what's interesting is that the third act of
the movie essentially, becomes you, Know gary words revenge, Thriller
like there's another movie out there where you, Know roscoe
has the love of his life, killed and he avenges.

Speaker 5 (03:16:31):
Even if you did it from this story where it
was just a concept of the other side of the,
villain where the villain doesn't think he's the villain right
and therefore realizes what's happened to. Him a lot of,
times like the monster becomes the monster because that murders
happened at the. Beginning, yes but they were already just
very comfortably again dwelling on the mental illness, part which
is again why it's still nineteen ninety. One and of

(03:16:53):
course a lot of people may look at it going
you had to make them, gay because that makes it
seem like it's adding to their mental illness because he's
very Much jerry is just a sleeves bad, guy, right
except for the moment like we talked, earlier where they
sort of look at their work and you realize That
jerry thinks this is art. Too, yes but to the

(03:17:13):
beginning from the, End roscoe thinks he's an. Artist he
thinks this is legitimate and is beautiful what he's, doing
which makes him the kind of guy who you would
like have to shoot three times before he call down
because he's so unaware of anything other than what he
thinks is.

Speaker 2 (03:17:32):
Real, yeah And i'm not shying away from sort of
saying you know that there are stereotypes in this, movie
and that there are things in this film that with modernized.
Problematic of, course there areots from nineteen ninety. One it's
a low budget, movie it has Wings houser in. It you,
know it's. Exploitation it's fully. EXPLOITATION i mean it's it's

(03:17:52):
one of the most sort of exploitation HEAVY pm films that.
Exist it's sort of outside of the early. Ones if
you watch stuff Like shotgun and some of those, ones
they have some exploitation in, them but really for the
late for the slightly later and this is only slightly
later because ninety, one but for sort of three years

(03:18:12):
into it and with the bigger, budgets this is still
quite exploitation. Territory and you, know when you're talking exploitation
or grindhouse or b movies called, them whatever you want
to call, them anyone who's going to reach out and
watch this movie or even listening to this podcast is
going to be okay with the fact, that, yes with modern,
eyes there are lots of things to question in this.

(03:18:33):
Movie but also to kind of go back to a
little bit of WHAT i was saying earlier as, well
it's also this weird dichotomy that lives in wings himself
a little, bit which is, that, yes he has all
the trappings of you, know the, big brash seventies, mckismo you,
know drunkard. Actor, right he has all those, trappings and

(03:18:56):
yet throughout his films and throughout his interviews and throughout
people who've known him 've talked about, him he was
actually maybe More i'm not going to use the word,
progressive that's probably not the right, word but probably more
socially conscious than his persona might lead you to. Believe for,
example one of the other movies he directs and writes

(03:19:18):
that nowhere near gets the release that these movies. Do
but it is literally a movie in which him And
Linda blair go up against skinheads and racists and whatever
to protect their homosexual. Son, so and that's something that
he wrote and. Directed you don't get many you, know

(03:19:39):
homophobes or racists who are going to be, Like i'm
gonna Make Neo nazis the bad guys in my movie
who killed my gay? Son you know WHAT i? Mean?

Speaker 5 (03:19:48):
Yeah which is it went again is because it's the time,
period because it can't dwell or explain on those kind of.
THINGS i can imagine in certain audiences would be a
nitpick of. Life, well why did they choose why did
they choose this? Demographic AND i think in the long,
RUN i think he's a, realist which is really what
the case. Is then he's aware that all these differences,

(03:20:10):
exist especially when you've been doing so many things In
la or in those parts Of New, York you've been
living around these different lifestyles that it's it's not a,
joke it's not totally you, know you gotta dumb the
films down to your audiences to make them sort of.
Stereotypes but they all have this. Element LIKE i, said
they all feel like like his partner at the, BEGINNING

(03:20:32):
i feel like they've had a life before.

Speaker 12 (03:20:34):
This The.

Speaker 5 (03:20:36):
Jerry And roscoe feel like they've had, something a story
to tell before. THIS a lot of these other films
feel like we've invented the, villain we've invented the. Hero
but these are there's definitely stories that all these characters
have had, before WHICH i, think especially in a lot
of The Real MACHISMO pm entertainment Films i've, seen they

(03:20:56):
don't feel like they have. THAT i don't feel Like
Gary daniels And junior mcquaide had a whole lot of
stories before they went to hunt down The Ultimate warrior
after In.

Speaker 2 (03:21:05):
Firepower, Right, no, Exactly AND i think also there are
far worse examples where they've made homosexual panic the reason
for the killer becoming the killer in slasher films and
in you, know bad action films and, whatever or where

(03:21:26):
homosexuals are portrayed in movies in the eighties and nineties
is incredibly flamboyant and incredibly over the top and pretty.
RIDICULOUS i think my point earlier about the rather touching,
scene but also in general just the way the two
actors play the. Role, Sure Latin jerry is over the
top and sort of a little wild and crazy and

(03:21:48):
silly and prone to outbursts or, whatever but no more
than other, villains regardless of their sexuality are in. Movies
whereas what's nice about the Way gary words, Place like
What i'm saying is nothing about their killing has anything
to do with their. Sexuality they're not killing people because you,
know AS i, say a homosexual, panic or because of

(03:22:10):
being in the closet or anything like. That there's, nothing
there's none of that indication. There there's also no indication
that they are in any way ashamed of who they
are ashamed, of you, know their lifestyle or or their
their love for each. Other it also is a movie
in which he says quite CLEARLY i loved, him and
you killed the person THAT i love in a genuine,

(03:22:31):
way and at no point Does wings go ah a
pair OF f, words you, know.

Speaker 5 (03:22:36):
Like he actually like has this sort of reaction of, like, right,
OH i see what's going, on and then it.

Speaker 2 (03:22:42):
Kicks them off the. Roof, yeah but.

Speaker 5 (03:22:46):
When he's holding the girlfriend's hostage about to set her on,
fire but that's when he says the line of the
killed the PERSON i, love And wings says something of,
well no one's going to hurt you. Now he says
this actually logical emotional reaction line which, COMES i think

(03:23:06):
in any other action, thing be it big budget. Ones
If arnie was in that, situation he would have said
something so sarcastic right right in this moment of, like
my love's about to, die but you just said you love,
them you're, Worst like he said stuff like.

Speaker 2 (03:23:20):
That, yeah there's none of. That there's NO f word in.
Here there's No they're not called pansies or any kind
of derogatory. Term and, again, look you might be Like,
john stop trying, to you, know put a cherry on
top of something that's horribly. Offensive i'm. Not i'm just
saying that there are like there are with, movies there are,

(03:23:40):
levels there, are you, know and you have to take
everything based on that particular situation in that particular, movie
in that Particular New. Ones you can't just, go, well
it's an exploitation, movie and therefore the gay characters in
it are you, know stereotypical and. AWFUL i actually think
there are levels in this movie where they are not

(03:24:02):
Quite Now i'm not, gay SO i don't know what
the gay community would feel watching this. Movie they might
be offended by, it and if, SO i completely understand
that and own that and appreciate, that and would never
say that this movie is not. Offensive if that's how
that community, FEELS i would, say THOUGH i have seen

(03:24:22):
to your, Point i've seen much worse In hollywood. Movies
i've seen much worse. Language i've seen much worse depictions
of homosexuals that don't state it with such care or
genuine emotion that this movie. Does and so, YEAH i,
MEAN i don't know Where i'm going with all of,
this but.

Speaker 5 (03:24:40):
You, see that's why it's worth talking about. IT i
think if IF i met someone a, friend who would
IF i showed that to someone and they were, Like i've.
Offended by the time of the stereotype of, IT i
feel like even for them being, offended they would still
be interested enough to discuss it because the characters have,
levels when in many other movies when that comes, up
even if my scriptive has done the, same many other

(03:25:02):
films would handle in a very, plastic flat, way which
shockingly this movie. Doesn't for the goofiness of the things
that happen in this is why you know this movie
has some heart and that's why it becomes it makes
you think about it more when many other movies that
will do the exact same story was when we bring
it down to your one paragraph of this with the
story is they wouldn't be talking about. It they wouldn't

(03:25:24):
have that effect on. You let's end this film with, Right,
yeah which it's not the same building that he threw
the woman out of. It it looks like it's almost
the same banner like somehow he went circle on.

Speaker 2 (03:25:38):
It oh, yes we have to mention the very last,
shot which is fucking phenomenal.

Speaker 5 (03:25:43):
Shot, YES i think you're gonna say What i'm gonna.
Say as he's he's speaking to the, girl the ambulance is,
there and she says who she really, is and this
is an element that he never knew and it's a
big twist that she is also a, cop and we're,
like that means, nothing.

Speaker 2 (03:26:03):
Well except that he SAID i would never love a,
cop is WHAT i said.

Speaker 5 (03:26:07):
Then and that was part of the reason and so.
Forth but then he jokes it off by saying that
again and then goes, ah and she, goes we should
move in with each, other and he's, like oh, okay
and the camera pans away and a guy in his
shorts roller skates goes, by who gets a name in the.
Credits he is the last name guy on roller skates he.

Speaker 2 (03:26:28):
Has he's wearing a pink speedo that is stuffed very
far up his butt, crack, right and you have this
thing and the saxophone comes. Up here's the end of the,
movie And wings just as a guy wheel is just
go through on a pair of roller skates with a

(03:26:49):
speedo rammed right up his butt. Crack it's almost Like
wings just it's and then it pans to The Hollywood.
Sign and that's really that's WHY i said in my
introduction that this is something of a parody Of hollywood.
ITSELF i really do Think wings is saying with that
ending scene IS i know the cliche of this, Scene

(03:27:10):
i'm going to add a Little hollywood thing to, it
Meaning hollywood the, place Not hollywood the. Industry i'm going
to add a little. Bit you, know you do get
roller skating widows going Around, hollywood you know WHAT i,
mean and speedos at two, Am like that's that's the
thing that you are perfectly accepting of In hollywood at that.
Time So i'm going to throw that in. There but
Then i'm gonna pan over to The Hollywood sign Because

(03:27:32):
i'm just gonna kind of it's almost like his you,
know but da da da da da da da, Da
like it's sort of like that's all, folks kind of right,
ending and it's it's his way of kind of Going
it's just a, movie, folks you. Know there's that's.

Speaker 5 (03:27:46):
Been very, dark and just as it pans, over as
we see the Guy rose going by who steals everyone's,
attention it'll make you miss what the two people by the, ambulance,
say when someone's closing up the ambulance and he, Mumble,
eh let's just go.

Speaker 6 (03:28:01):
Home.

Speaker 5 (03:28:02):
Jerry there's a guy in the. Background he just, mumbles
let's just go, home and as if like we are
admitting that we are closing this.

Speaker 2 (03:28:09):
Film and that's WHAT i, mean is, THAT i, Think
AND i think this is another THING i Think, WINGS
i think probably seeing it's a little bit taxi driver,
ish seeing the Way New york could become a cess,
POOL i, think seeing the Way Los angeles became a cess,
POOL i think kind OF i think that's what he's
trying to say with the movie a little. BIT i
think there's a little taxi driver in.

Speaker 5 (03:28:30):
There, oh AND i mean again with, like part of
the reason why it took me so long to See
art Of, dying as brought up the, beginning was my
shock of his character In Vice, squad and the worlds
are very similar in these two, Movies so knowing THAT
i was afraid That wings was going to be this
really awful, person especially When i'd seen clips that kind

(03:28:54):
of allude that he has a very big breakdown in,
this but was so relieved how as much as his
life is, terrible and he admits that his life is.
Terrible in this he's he still kind of just goes
through it as a. Hero and at the end you
get that sort of safety in it when you've gone
to some very dangerous places in. This In Vice, squad
when it gets, dangerous there's very little relief of.

Speaker 2 (03:29:15):
That, yeah there's no safety. There but you could do
a super cut where this movie ends And Vice squad
kind of. BEGINS i know it would be like twenty
years earlier, whatever BUT i mean. It you could do
that and then in to cuts it with the Movie. Angel,
yeah she's like a high school student by day and
hooker On Hollywood boulevard by. Night those three movies you

(03:29:38):
could put together in some kind of wild super.

Speaker 5 (03:29:40):
CUT i think that's a big sign of like why
the the studio BAIT b movie doesn't exist so much.
Anymore i've either got the LOLO b movies THAT i
deal with for my terrible fest in with my, scene
or you've got Your hollywood. Films the STUDIO b movie
LIKE Pm entertainment Or canon or those guys at the
time barely. Exists and because they don't, exist we don't

(03:30:05):
talk About hollywood as that kind Of hollywood, anymore, right people,
Don't but at a time they were constantly doing it
because they were films that could get released and we
could all see. Them but they also weren't one hundred
percent owned by these bigger budget studios who would tell,
them don't say, that don't talk like that about. It
but this is the same town that you know That

(03:30:25):
Lizien maguire lives. In we can't do, that, yeah.

Speaker 2 (03:30:27):
Exactly so, lastly then favorite scenes ranking WITHIN Pm entertainment
films if you've seen enough of them to rank, it
and ranking within wings housing. Movies so do you have
any favorite? Scenes just just list a couple off before
we go.

Speaker 5 (03:30:41):
Easily the throwing Of wilma as her name, was and
we know It's wilma because the lug abusive husband Shows
wilma sounding like Fred winstone when she flies out the.
Window that will shock you for the next three minutes
that you'll forget what's set. Head and, that of, course
the weirdest sex scene of all time that seems to

(03:31:04):
go on and at one point it comes back and
you're not sure if it's the same sex scene or.

Speaker 2 (03:31:09):
Not now they are having sex all day and keeps
cutting back to, murders to the police, station to all
sorts of. Things it comes back and, FORTH i, think
even to her going to the roadhouse where the juke
box is. PLAYING i think that's even in the midst
of that one long sex, scene.

Speaker 5 (03:31:31):
Right and in the world OF pm, entertainment that sex
SCENE i think ranks up there as the top only
close beat not but beat just so. Close just underneath
it at number two is the picnic flashback scene In,
skyscraper which is again the most unsexy sex scene you've
ever seen of two people who do not want to
be doing. This at least it kind of feels as

(03:31:53):
weird as it, is and maybe they shouldn't be here
AND i shouldn't be watching. This it does feel like
the two characters in a dying want to do.

Speaker 2 (03:32:01):
That, yes, okay so favorite, Scenes, yes sex scene, definitely
opening scene is. Fantastic i've got to give it up
for the random bunny rabbit on the beach. Scene where
the hell that came? From why he has a bunny?
Rabbit it's never mentioned before or. AFTER i don't know
whether it's a reference to something or whether he just
liked bunny. RABBITS i have no idea him feeding boost

(03:32:22):
to the. Bunny rabbit is a favorite ranking WITHIN pm
entertainment films if you, can.

Speaker 5 (03:32:27):
Like if you want to give it like a number or,
SOMETHING i don't THINK i can do, that also because
there is so many that EVEN i could maybe Say
i've seen a quarter of the mass titles OF pm,
entertainment but Even.

Speaker 2 (03:32:39):
I've only seen half their, output so, right, Yeah i'm
doing a show on.

Speaker 5 (03:32:43):
Them so WHAT i could say, is THOUGH i do
think that it is way more cerebral then your go
to more popular, gets you, know talked about on the
internet ENOUGH pm entertainment, films which again is a reason
why every time someone reminds me that it is, ONE
i am. Surprised so as in, QUALITY i think it's

(03:33:07):
very high on.

Speaker 2 (03:33:08):
There so it's in my top. TEN i Put living
To die above, it just but it's in my top.
Ten and AGAIN i, have you, know three or four
with five, stars and THEN i have fifteen movies all
with four, stars so it's difficult to kind of put
a number to.

Speaker 5 (03:33:25):
It but number six is Obviously Magic kid with on
The Dragon.

Speaker 2 (03:33:29):
Wilson, sure, sure but, no it's up there WITH i
think it's very close To living To die And Killer's,
edge which are the three better. Ones i'm not a
big fan Of Cold, fire that was the first one he.
DID i put it Near Zero tolerance And Guardian angel And,
inferno which the One Jean claude van dampm entertainment film

(03:33:50):
that they, made which is actually my Favorite John claude
Van dam, Film AND i didn't even know it was
A pm film UNTIL i sat down to watch it
and immediately became my Favorite John cloud Van dam film
because that is a highly underrated, film a highly underrated.
Film so in terms of Wings houser, movies then where
would you put it on a Wings houser.

Speaker 5 (03:34:10):
LIST i, MEAN i definitely put in my top five of.
Those and again to still compare WITH pm in, general
WHEN i mentioned at the beginning that like my favorites
are things Like Hologram man And firepower because those are the,
cartoonish those are the eighties kids and me type of. Films,
yeah BUT i can still say out of everything everything
THAT i have either helped produce for films or made

(03:34:31):
or done for my, FESTIVALS i can see the difference
between something THAT i could say is my, favorite BUT
i can still say That art Of dying is. BETTER
i think it's definitely better than those ones that are my.
Favorite it's not the kind of thing THAT i THINK
i could watch every day BECAUSE i think you have
to be a lot more invested in it THAN i
could be With. FIREPOWER i could have it, on go
make a sandwich and come back and have really missed

(03:34:51):
nothing and still be in the groove with. It but
you shouldn't do that With art Of. Dying you should
be sitting. There MAYBE i have a bottle of whiskey
the side of you for, it but you should be
sitting and watching it in the dark and getting into.
It which in The Wings, World Wings, World, wow that's
the thing to. Say i'm making a hat that says

(03:35:11):
that the world out of quality of his. PERFORMANCES i
even maybe put in the top. THREE i don't want
it to be there too close to uh tough guys don't,
Dance but it's. Uh it is on that level because
if someone else took, that if you took away the

(03:35:34):
sexy jazz and put in more avant garde, jazz and
all of a, sudden there could still be a twins
peak esque thing going on In art Of, dying, because
AS i, said there are moments, where if you really
wanted to be artsy with it until the, end you
could believe that half these people only. Exit all these
other great walking characters Are art Of dying only exist

(03:35:57):
In wings's. Head he's the only one who has real
interactions with each of these, people which is is very
interesting and a little trippy.

Speaker 2 (03:36:07):
Sometimes, indeed, indeed and, again it's it's. In it's in
my top, Ten it's probably in my top. Five it's you,
know and my top five. Varies BUT i really love
Dead Man, WALKING i really Love nightmare At, NOON i
really Love Tough Guys Don't. DANCE i Love mutant also
known as Night shadows also known As, creature AND i

(03:36:27):
Love living To. Die so it's it's in amongst those
that's that those are the ones THAT i consider really top. Tier.
WINGS i need to Rewatch The siege Of fire Based.
Glory it's it's it's been it's been a long while for.
ME i THINK i gave it three and a half
WHEN i watched. It that that might. CHANGE i Gave
out Of dying four out of five On, Letterbox but,

(03:36:47):
yeah it's up. There it's It's it's in the top
top five or six for. Me so just a great.
MOVIE i hope everyone goes out and watches it and Rediscovers.
Wings AND i was thinking to, myself, like you, know
with The wings, documentary with THE Pam entertainment movies being
released On Blu ray And, switzerland and with this show
and various other little things that are, HAPPENING i, UH

(03:37:09):
i feel like we're at a cusp of some really
something really interesting and potentially big happening around these these
films are getting we from it in terms of getting,
rediscovered you know WHAT i. MEAN i feel like five
years from, now we'll have a bunch of hipsters claiming
they always knew WHAT Pam entertainment was And i'll have
To i'll have to beat them down with.

Speaker 5 (03:37:27):
Sticks and the thing, is and it stands OUT i think,
heavily especially at least of What i've seen of the.
Catalog also just in general of early nineties video sexual. Thrillers,
yes this is the time which we're, everywhere but it
stands way, different maybe because of the pulp nest than

(03:37:48):
the warness of. It BUT i think a lot of
people will mix it up with the dozens Of Shannon
tweed And Jeff fahey movies that appeared Where Jeff fayhey
was addicted to cybersex and the, internet so the mob
killed his, wife who was also played By Shannon. Tweed
that you know that movie doesn't, exist but it, does you,
Know and there's so many of, those but this is.

(03:38:08):
Different it looks the same because of the. Cover, again
if you explain the basics to, people looks it sounds the,
same but it's. Not it's much more different than.

Speaker 2 (03:38:17):
That and And wings did a legitimate one of those
with bedroom eyes too write us.

Speaker 5 (03:38:22):
He's He and, again if if you've only known him
from some of the pop, things you could, think Being
wings that he would do, that but the fact that
he again is a. Shocker he's an. Enigma he can
do these other. Things AND i, hope sadly it takes
passing away for people to start talking about it and knowing,
that BUT i hope that people will give more of
THOSE i don't want to say award winning because a

(03:38:45):
lot of them, were but the ones that people didn't
realize how much more of himself was in.

Speaker 2 (03:38:49):
It, yeah, no definitely, Great all, Right well thanks ever so, Much,
adam best of luck with all that you, do and
we'll speak again, SOON i.

Speaker 1 (03:38:56):
Hope.

Speaker 5 (03:38:57):
Absolutely thanks so much for having, Me.

Speaker 2 (03:38:59):
And you can find And adam anywhere where the words
riot at The movies. Appears they're On, tumblr they're On,
instagram they're on. YouTube go check Out riot at The
movies with Mister adam Riot. Thorn and, also why don't
you go To amazon and pick up his Book riot
at The, Movies Bad movies And Booze The life of
A Terrible Bad Movie. Addict go support. Him why don't?

(03:39:21):
You i'm about to buy it. Myself all, right take, care,
now have a great, time and we'll be back same
time next. Week you are now leaving.

Speaker 12 (03:39:31):
Them Entertainment Podcast

Speaker 1 (03:40:21):
Don

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Episode 4 - The Art of Dying - A Wings Hauser Celebration

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.css-14f5ked{margin:0;word-break:break-word;display:-webkit-box;-webkit-box-orient:vertical;box-orient:vertical;-webkit-line-clamp:2;overflow:hidden;}Episode 4 - The Art of Dying - A Wings Hauser Celebration