Ep. 61 - so the new patch is out... - The PoddyC

Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:00):
All right, welcome to episode sixty one of the potyc.
This week we've resurrected Max. Welcome back.

Speaker 2 (00:06):
Why'd you guys kill me? You could have just said, like,
he's not here. Yeah there was a gun. I saw it.

Speaker 1 (00:13):
Yeah, yeah, I saw you reacting to the podcast on
your stream later as well. That kind of goes crazy. Actually,
you sort of get a double whemmy, right, Like, not
only do you not have to show up to record
the podcast and like you get time that way, you
also got free stream content.

Speaker 2 (00:29):
Yeah.

Speaker 1 (00:30):
Yeah, we got like double farmed last week. So yep,
good work there. So okay, we've got a lot of
stuff to talk about. Obviously, coming up soon is gonna
be the Race World First, where you will go up
against last week's guest hopeful and a team we haven't
had a guests from, I guess probably yet method as

(00:50):
they go for the three the three Guilds VI for
World First in the Race World First. What that means
for you, dear listeners, is our schedule over the next
couple of weeks. We're gonna tryan produce content still, but
depending on how crazy things get, we have to cut
some slack. We will do the best we can on
that end, and there's a decent chance that one or
multiple of us may be in or out of the

(01:12):
episodes over the next few weeks. But this week there
is no raid. There is no race to talk about yet,
so instead we have the two new delves, excavations Site
nine and the Side Street Sluice. Have you guys done
the new Delves yet?

Speaker 2 (01:29):
Do we have to talk about doves? To talk about
the car instead? Okay, we been talking about the Delves
in a bit, but I had a lot of fun
with the car.

Speaker 1 (01:39):
Yeah, the car is actually kind of fun, although I
will say I immediately disconnected upon crashing into a wall
with that saying.

Speaker 2 (01:47):
Actually, maybe that's the first thing to talk about it.
I mean, I only played yesterday. I haven't played today yet,
but I've heard the servers on both NA and e
U are pretty pretty bad.

Speaker 1 (01:55):
Yeah, yeah, my dude, Tyke, I find tech Andreas and
there was there was a solid thirty minutes where every
server was up except for Techondris, which was which is good,
kind of kind of standard.

Speaker 3 (02:08):
That's a good thing, right. Doesn't that just mean the
game is popping off right now retail? Yeah, back, or
it could just mean that the servers are sucking.

Speaker 2 (02:15):
You could be a glass half full or empty person
with that, right, Like, I mean it's possible that like
one person is playing the game and it's lagging, right,
But you would assume that it's lagging because there are
a lot of people playing it, you know.

Speaker 1 (02:29):
Yeah, I'm almost curious, Like, I guess they make some
optimizations over like they figure out what's causing the lag
with the new patch, and it's a combination of like
there's some things that are making it prone to lag
and there's high demand, right because you know the demand
is still high next week, the week after and stuff.
But they iron this all out, Like, I don't think

(02:50):
it's one of those cases where they're just having to
wait for the capacity to open up, right, I think
it's genuinely a case of like every new patch, I
guess there's just some random different piece is a code
that are being problematic that they don't know about until
the stress test reveals it or something.

Speaker 3 (03:05):
Yeah, I will say, like one of the engineers performance
why is like, you know, like FBS performance wise, my
performance has been feeling great. I mean, to be fair,
I did get a new CPU and this would be
a crazy sponsor segment.

Speaker 1 (03:17):
That's right. Yeah, if you own a CPU company, please
you can bid for the rights to be the company
that provided Dorky's silky smooth new CE or new CPU.

Speaker 2 (03:27):
Even No, I'm pretty sure I know it. I mean
it's it's like the wow CPU because of the new
the new one. How'd you get it?

Speaker 3 (03:36):
Uh? They're more available now at my local micro center.

Speaker 2 (03:40):
Oh okay, cool.

Speaker 1 (03:41):
Bleep out where I got that trunk? The at your
local unspecial local.

Speaker 2 (03:46):
Yeah, that's where you could have gotten.

Speaker 1 (03:48):
Yeah, could have been anywhere. Okay. Yeah. The the FBS
has been kind of fine for me too, but the
lag has definitely been I'll agree with you, Max. It's
like I would say, it's it's not the worst new
patch launch ever, but it's definitely up there on that
side of things, which brings us into a discussion. I
think this one of the things. So one of the

(04:09):
discourses I've seen online over the past day or two
has been around like, why do we have this week
this week on the start?

Speaker 2 (04:19):
Yeah?

Speaker 3 (04:20):
Yeah, dude, that's my entire fucking chat, like they won't show.

Speaker 1 (04:23):
Yeah, And there's a I think this particular time around
has led to that question being asked. I think with
it's it's been like brought to the forefront of everybody's
minds because this week you like logged in, you opened
a vault, and you got an item that was graded
out and couldn't be upgraded. All your crests are gone,

(04:44):
all your valor stones are gone, a bunch of other
random stuff is still there though you know you're you
still have your harmonized silks for using the catalyst if
you're randomly are constrained on that resource, which is hard
to be but if you let it build up, or
if you're using for transmog you could have been. You
still have your undercoins and your restored Coffer keys. Those

(05:05):
are going to go away next week, but your radiant
decos went a weigh this week. So it's like a
weird it's a very weird transition that really highlights like
how kind of I don't know, it feels like not
like hap completely right, Yeah, like it feels like a
kind of duct tape together seasonal transition that they've felt

(05:28):
like this in the past, but I think because of
the increase in the amount of seasonal systems that they've
added over the past, like two expansions which have been
generally good, right, like adding in stuff like the upgrade system,
which we we love, right is a great system, but
necessarily that leads to more kind of overhead that needs
to change from season to season, and not all of
them are treated the same way. And it's certainly pretty counterintuitive,

(05:50):
like the fact that this week you're opening up a
vault and getting last season gear and you know, the
only content that you can actually do that's like Radar
m plus or whatever is still giving last season gear,
but then you can't upgrade it anymore. And like all
your crest disappeared without notice. I think that has led
a lot of to a lot of like it just
feels like.

Speaker 2 (06:11):
This isn't how it feels outdated, it should be, right, Yeah,
And also it's like a mixture of two different things too,
because like next week, if you guys have been following along,
you probably know this. But if you just played last
season and have been falling along, what happened last season
is like there was this heroic week and then mythic
and Mythic plus will be after that next week. It's
all happening at once. So with them taking away that

(06:31):
heroic week, and then this week not really having anything
is like, I wonder if you could mix those two things, right,
you could do the heroic week heroic only at the
first week of the patch, and then the second week
of the patches, like you can have Mythic and Mythic
plus basically the same, like add a little something or
maybe add mythic zeros with upgrade with like new gear
and this week something like that. I started to have

(06:53):
this take on my stream where like, if you look
at the game the way that we look at the
game right, like most people that we talk to, and
we know you're gonna do all the steps of the
campaign the day it comes out, so yesterday done right.

Speaker 1 (07:06):
Maybe notably, it looks like you have to do it
on each character, unlike some of those previous season where
you could skip it.

Speaker 2 (07:11):
Yeah, you have multiple characters. You have to do it
in multiple characters. But like, is it you know, back
to like the mole people argument. Is it possible that
the reason that this week exists is for a perspective
that we do not have and it's hard to share
or relate to, which is I think people don't want
to feel maybe rushed into doing the raid or mythic
plus or just start farming content like you're officially on

(07:33):
a timer, right, Like you can't really enjoy the news.
I guess the story of the Again, this is not
my thing. I'm just trying trying to make an argument
for someone who's not in this call that you would do,
you know, have some time to do the quest and
go farm some stuff and get some new mounts and
interact with the new zone and really feel like you
can do that without feeling like you have to just
start rating and stuff right away. Maybe that exists, Like

(07:56):
that's that's that's I think the I would think the
argument for it like the argument for us, Like if
you play the game, we play it, it's like this
week totally doesn't make sense. But I think the reason
the week is still there is probably for those people.
But I don't, you know, it's just kind of this
thing we keep talking about where there's like this large
amount of people that are don't really have a spokesperson
and don't have a lot of like twitch streamers that

(08:18):
are really like that, you know, because those people are
all going to do it on the first day, even
if they're casual focused, right, Like the people who log
in for an hour and do part of the campaign
and then log in tomorrow, right, like, which we assume
is the majority of people who play this game.

Speaker 3 (08:31):
Yeah, that's one of the represent why it exists. I mean,
it's why time getting is this in this game in general, right, Yeah,
Why players aren't allowed to just like instantly get to
high item level or instantly be able to unlock ap
back in the days. It's to keep the player base
a little bit more connected in terms of player power.

(08:55):
So but I mean, I will say, like they should
have at least release M zero. It's the same mistake
that happened at launch of expansion, Like why do we
not have M zero this week?

Speaker 1 (09:05):
I'll I'll give a little bit of a different take
on this one, because I do I see myself as
a little bit of somebody that's in this space, because yeah, okay,
if you're somebody who's only quest and like, if you're
a full mole person, you actually don't care as much
about when any of the stuff comes out, like what
the you know, the the rain, because you're not like

(09:26):
somebody who's pressured by those sorts of things, right like
existing and by contrast, if you're a full raid person
you also don't care as much, like it's just kind
of a weird week. I think the reason that this
week is nice is for people that are sort of
in the middle right, where it's like, if you are
somebody who, for instance, there was a cheap there's an
achievement called going Goblin mode that rewards a new war

(09:46):
band campsite that you can put as your background for
one of your because that's a new feature with this patch. Right,
it's like camp sites for your guys when they're logged out, right,
and that achievement involves like running around and grabbing a
bunch of rats from all over the undermine and like
a bunch of the treasures, right, like doing something if
you're somebody who wants to do something like that, but
also will play the new content, and like we'll focus

(10:07):
on the raid as soon as it's out and focus
on the keys as soon as they're available. This is
a week that lets you do that. But I definitely
don't think there's enough stuff this week to justify that
from a pure game design perspective. I think that really,
if you look at it, like, the biggest reason to
me why this sort of week is necessary is like,
look at the lag look at the massive maintenance that

(10:29):
needs to happen this weekend next week, right, Like if
the more that you are trying to go from one
season to another patch and another season all at once,
Like if you're trying to do not just the new patch,
the new story, the new architecture of the game, also
the new seasonal content and the new raids to the
new m plus the odds that that's going to involve
either a massively extended maintenance or things being gigabuggy and

(10:50):
stuff I think go way up. So I think that
a lot of the value here is mostly just like
giving them two weeks of resets to where they can
kind of do half of it and then do the
other half, and then each of them can only be
like moderately laggy and you know buggy, rather than being
super bad, especially you know, because it really doesn't matter, right,
Like you think about us yesterday and it's like, oh man,

(11:12):
these servers suck, okay whatever, Right, But if you imagine
that's like when the Race World first started and it's like, na,
servers are laggy all day. First of all, max Off
is that you would be you would be in that yeah, exactly,
that would be like the worst thing to ever happen
to you. But even for a non race word first players,
right Like, people like to make the argument like, oh,
don't designer on the race world first, but like, it
sucks for everybody if the game is super laggy, especially

(11:35):
you know, on a new content start, even if you're
a casual player and you know, obviously it was still
laggy yesterday, but it could have been much worse. So
I think that's like a lot of what stops them
from doing a more elegant season start. But I do
think that what they need to do for future ones
at least is first of all, it would be good
if they could just figure out how to and we

(11:56):
could get you know again, just like straight into Heroic
week would be great for most people. Now, obviously it
would be super stressful for ractable first players potentially, although
he add some stress and relieve some other stress, so
that you know, obviously is a mixed bag. But like
for most players, I think it would be better, right Like,
if you're a story focused player, the fact that the

(12:18):
raid is out on Heroic and and bless and stuff,
you still probably can do all the story and stuff
your guild maybe just doesn't raid Tuesday. I think a
lot of guilds would just not raid the Tuesday and
it would be fine. But I do think that in
order for Blizzard to be like comfortable doing that, they
would have to, you know, figure it out in a
way that is not currently figured out.

Speaker 2 (12:38):
But yeah, I just don't even know if you can
do that. Yeah, Like, like I don't think Blizzard would
want to make that their public argument, Like the reason
we do this is we're not sure we can release
a stable game in one day. Like that's that's a
tough look, right.

Speaker 1 (12:48):
Yeah, that's it. So my theory is right that that
we're never going to get it confirmed because yeah, you know,
it's it's But what I do think is okay, failing that,
regardless of their reason for doing it this way, I
do think that they've got to do it better or
in future with regards to stuff like messaging about the
fact that your crests are going away, for instance, was
absent this time around. And if you're something we had,
yeah right yeah, if you're if you're somebody who's crest

(13:10):
got got munched by that going away, right, like that
feels really bad. So making a more elegant solution, at
least to that, you know, being super consistent, finding a
way to be super consistent about which parts of the
season carry over into this dead week and which parts don't,
and making it super clear in advance with like a
nice big detailed post of like here's what's happening to
this currency, here's just happening to this currency, would be

(13:34):
really I think that that would band aid a lot
of my biggest gripes with the status quo.

Speaker 3 (13:41):
I still think we should at least have M zero
this week. Yeah, like what I was talking about in
the beginning of the expansion, if they had like maybe
normal rate as well, that'd be kind of cool.

Speaker 2 (13:48):
Yeah, I think if I'm guessing about the Mythic zero thing,
it's more along the lines of the like casual player argument,
because like if you're only logging in and you're even
trying to just get the story done in one week,
also feeling like you either have daily lockouts on Mythic plus,
like like a daily lockout on Mythic zero would be like,
well it's weak, is it weakly? Okay? Well, if it's weekly,

(14:10):
then I feel yeah, no, I completely agree with you.
It's weekly. I feel like there is because like the
in the first season, we I think correctly identified that
the reason that mythic Zeros were nerved from what they
already were in season four was purely to make Delves
more relevant, which was like the new shiny thing, and
in this season they went back to just how it
was before, assuming because Delves just aren't new. But then

(14:31):
then it's just about the release time, like why why
do we have have nothing to do? But also like
we kind of maybe it's it's not a coincidence. We
have this conversation every time like a new season comes
out right, because there is always this week. Even in
the expansion. The beginning of expansion feels like this too. Yeah,
maybe it's more like patches. It's like more obvious.

Speaker 3 (14:48):
But I don't know.

Speaker 2 (14:49):
It's kind of a common something. Something about it isn't
quite right, at least for our player base. But maybe
maybe it's a Blizzard has to create a game for
so many different kinds of people, and because of that,
they can't make like the perfect game for anyone. It
has to be like great for a large sum of
different groups that all want different things, And maybe this

(15:10):
is just one of the sacrifices they have to make
for that.

Speaker 1 (15:16):
Yeah, I think at the end of the day, it's
one of those things where it's like it's not a
big deal. It just kind of feels like a big
deal this week because it's the only deal that's active
this way. It's the only thing we have to think
about right now. But like at the end of the day,
you know, when you think back to a patch, when
you think back to like, you know, Nihiloatha patch, do
you remember the week where we had corruption? We had

(15:38):
like one piece of corruption from Horrific Visions and we're
farming Eternal Palace with it. Like, No, that's not right.
The thing that matters to us is the first week
without the raid, right, Like if it matters to us
in the moment, but then when we think back on
a patch, right, the things we care about just haven't
started yet.

Speaker 2 (15:55):
What do what do most of us do when a
new game comes out that we want to play, right,
we play the ship out of it. Yeah, right, it's
gonna go hard. Yeah, And I think it's that if
you if you if you just resonated with what I
just said, like you've ever waited for a game to
come out and you and you just want to play
the shit out of it no matter what game it is.
If Wow is one of those games for you, patch

(16:16):
weeks just don't hit. It's like it's the only game
where like the game comes out then you have to
wait a week to play it. Yeah, So it's just
it's just a strange feeling.

Speaker 1 (16:25):
Yeah, it is. It is strange. It's definitely. It is
like it's like strange and it feels like it shouldn't
be that way. But like you said, like maybe it's
a combination for a combination of good technical reasons or
reasons for players that are other than us. It's like that,
and it's like it's not the end of the world.
It just feels wrong, right, Like yeah, weird thereas in

(16:47):
the past where they fix this by just giving us
island expeditions or whatever to grind during this week, and
I'm glad we're not there at least.

Speaker 2 (16:53):
Oh yeah, actually that is a good point, like how
this used to get solved those borrowed power existing in general. Yeah,
like like this week, I mean, if you were a
need to play the game all though, and now you
could argue whether this was good gameplay or not. But
there is there is something to be said about the
dopamine of your character getting stronger and everything that came
along with that. With stuff, even the most basic version
of it, like artifact power or ar az right power,

(17:13):
you you had an infinite amount of stuff to do
that week. You could be in Islands permanently, you know,
you could be in Mov's Souls permanently. You could be
doing something to make your character stronger, and there just
isn't any way to do that now that that's the
decision they made at the beginning of a couple expansions
ago to kind of remove that fomo of like I
need to be online every day or else I'm behind.
That's that was like a big thing, and I.

Speaker 1 (17:34):
Was like, sare Mortis was the patch? Was the first
patch for this was true because like even the previous
patches with Corthia and the Ma, you grinded them for
sockets because that was like it was a small thing,
but it was like big enough that it was worth doing.

Speaker 2 (17:45):
Yeah, exactly. And then not many people played that patch
relative to who would play an expansion, so then I
actually think about it more. That's actually why the beginning
of Dragon Flight felt the way it did because basically
Dragonflight was the first expansion where they've got rid of
all fomo at the beginnings, so you had everyone like
crack fiends farming these rares that didn't give you gear
that matter. And then basically the same thing existed at

(18:08):
the beginning of this expansion, but we had just got
gone through three full patches where you're used to not
having fomo, So people are like hardwired to not be
like what can I do? What can I do? What
can I do? You kind of know you don't really
need to do anything except for like the basic renowned stuff,
which is pretty capped and really easy to do. Uh
So I think I used to think, like man Buzer

(18:29):
was so smart at the beginning of Dragonflight, but I
might have think it's just an accident because players are
just so conditioned to grinding that they ended up grinding
nothing and they probably learned their lesson from that and
then they didn't do it again.

Speaker 3 (18:39):
I think they do need to have that though, like
I swear I was talking about this is actually earlier
with my chat, and that's the exact feeling people are getting.

Speaker 1 (18:49):
People that want to like they want.

Speaker 3 (18:51):
Them right, then, yeah, they need like literally asking like, oh,
I'm renowned seven seven seventy, why I do I'm like,
just go fucking do something else. Or they're like.

Speaker 1 (19:09):
Four right now, you're gonna.

Speaker 2 (19:12):
Behind if you're not at this point. Yeah, oh yeah, dude.

Speaker 3 (19:15):
That happened a lot in season three of DRAGONFLYF People
were like, oh, do I need to do this whole
seed gathering ship? Yeah, And I'm like yeah, I mean,
if you don't get your your augment rune by next week,
I don't think anyone's gonna invite you to a group
like you gotta get this.

Speaker 2 (19:30):
Like think about how much like we we like exploited
seeds in that patch and got punished for it to
where it was impossible for us to get the max
renowned game during the race, and it just didn't even
fucking matter, right.

Speaker 1 (19:43):
Didn't you guys have that race? Didn't you guys lose
that race?

Speaker 2 (19:46):
Well? Yeah, but not because of like zero point one
eye level or whatever it was, right, Also some other
stuff happened.

Speaker 1 (19:53):
Yeah, I think it could because of that.

Speaker 2 (19:56):
You think it could have been because of the point
when eye level?

Speaker 1 (19:58):
I think so, yeah, I think so. I would. Just
I'm just saying Echo got the REP, they had the
red rds mm hmmm.

Speaker 2 (20:06):
Oh, and then you could do that same thing this race.
Maybe the bands, although I don't think they lost any
I think they they did get all both of the
guilds got all their eye level and their runs done.
You could just argue they lost some sleep and maybe
some fun. Definitely lost some fun.

Speaker 1 (20:23):
That must have been hell yeah, sorry I cut you
off of the mill there.

Speaker 2 (20:27):
I don't even remember what I was saying.

Speaker 1 (20:30):
Seeds.

Speaker 2 (20:31):
Yeah, well we went and farmed and everyone was like
farming seeds, but like it just had almost no effect
or zero effect on the race and it wouldn't affect
your guild at all, like if they got a week
week later, like the overall power game was nothing. Yeah,
but you gotta do it same thing with this patch, right.

Speaker 1 (20:48):
Yeah, I mean this patch there's like really pretty much
nothing with the REP. It's like it's actually so little.
So the things that this REP gives if anybody's like
if anybody in the chat is listening and has BOMA,
there's like some champion track pieces of gear. I guess
that they're like so deep in theirnoun track. And then
there's that enchanted Rune Crest which historically has been the
thing that's maybe good from reps if you can get

(21:10):
them to full in time, but I don't think you
can with this one. I don't think there's a repeatable
way to grind it. Max of course will stay silent
if there is that everybody's doing.

Speaker 2 (21:18):
And uh, well, I wonder if I mean to be
honest with you, even if our guild knew, I wouldn't
even know, yeah, and do my own shit.

Speaker 1 (21:24):
Yeah, it's like not even necessarily good either, because so
the reason they changed ren Crest was good before was
that it was just really nice value to have one
of those for free, because it was kind of costly
to make an enchanged aspect Crest or builded Crest, And
that's changed. The aspect crusts are a lot cheaper now
and chanted aspect crust are a lot cheaper now, So
it's like pretty hard for that to even be bad
to make. Ever, which last season that wasn't true, right,

(21:46):
last season, getting free and changed ron Crest was was
really big value.

Speaker 2 (21:51):
But this season it's I hope it wasn't on purpose.
I hope the reason that they didn't what they didn't
create great rewards or a grindable thing because they just
wanted to like totally avoid the like I mean two
tiers in a row. REP has been exploited and there's
been punishments for it, so they're like, well, if we
make it not that worth it and not that grindable,
then you know, maybe people will will stop doing this.

(22:14):
But I would be willing to bet that they could
have a really grindable thing and a really great reward.
I think any guild that would exploit REP this raid
would be truly truly a fool. Like at least last raid,
it made sense in a way why Method and Echo
did it and why we did it because we had

(22:34):
gotten punished for that exact thing before, so we kind
of knew like, hey, we probably shouldn't do this again,
like they'll probably punish us worse. That would be bad, right,
But they didn't get punished, so they are like, well,
we can do it. But now everyone's been punished for
exploiting REP and in increasingly severe ways, So like, would
anyone want to risk getting banned during the race, which

(22:54):
I'm almost positive is exactly what they would do next
if someone did it again. I don't think anyone would would,
so I hope. I hope the rest of the game
isn't suffering from shitty rewards because they they want to,
Like I kind of this is kind of like a
tinfoil thing. Anyway, I highly doubt that would be.

Speaker 3 (23:10):
Yeah, I feel like there's no way it would be crazy.

Speaker 1 (23:14):
You could be betting on Blizzard being inconsistent with their bands,
ben Folicy. That's that's often a good det just take
the you know, take the risk.

Speaker 3 (23:24):
Yeah, but uh, maybe TSD was right after all, Maybe
maybe we need some grind back. They're just something.

Speaker 2 (23:31):
I mean, there is something to say about that, like
when raid buffs have been in the game and then
they were removed and then they were brought back. Like
there's there's like things kind of have worke in cycles
in this game, and maybe borrow Power is one of them,
like Legion through like hardcore in Legion, like hardcore Legion
and BFA all the way through shadow Lands, it was
just defined by borrowed Power. I refer to them as

(23:53):
like the borrow Power expansions. And then Dragonflight was like
the Evergreen expansion. Now this is I guess another Evergreen
expansion that doesn't seem to be anything like that and
we we've had these conversations before. To have them that
like later in the expansion, not have an expansion to
fined by it, but at least have patches like man
that would make these patch weeks a little better, you know,
like you just have like a little little sauce to
look forward to in your character, you can be a

(24:14):
little creative. And I at least at least I'm I'm
on the stance that like some borrowed power in this game.
I guess it's easy for me to say, because I'm
not the one with fifteen characters would have to grind it.
For someone who would have like one character or a couple,
I think it would be that's multiply that that is.

Speaker 1 (24:32):
Sorry, do you speaker just frock and that frocked your puppies.

Speaker 2 (24:38):
It was the doorbell, a little bit of.

Speaker 1 (24:41):
Borrod power, Okay, like a little bit of a you know,
a little something in the start of a new patch.
I mean it's possible to detach the borrowed power from
the grind as well, right, Like, I don't know, you couldn't.

Speaker 3 (24:53):
Think it hurts to have something to work on it
at the beginning of the patch.

Speaker 1 (24:56):
Yeah, but if it's like uncapped, so that that's the problem, right,
is like how many hours of grind do you want
to do during this week per character? Because if you
pick a reasonable sounding number like ten, ten has a
lot of hours to play in the new week for
a lot of people. If it's like boring, yeah, but
it's a week one day one for like THD and people.

Speaker 2 (25:16):
Are The issue with AP is it's infinite, right, right,
Yeah it does, but.

Speaker 1 (25:21):
Like any reasonable finite number will be done in day
two by the people that are not reasonable players of
this game, right, But that's.

Speaker 2 (25:28):
Fine, but think about uh, think about like I don't know,
good good Bob, power, essences, corruption, you had, you could
make anything like the reason those things were good is
because of how it affected your character, not how grind
you're weird it way to get it right. In fact,
it actually got a lot better once they made it
more painable. But you just have it just needs to

(25:49):
be designed well in the way that it's like impacting
your character. Like something that's just like you do three
percent more damage is really boring. But something where like
your abilities change or tornadoes shoot out of you and
damage like that, sh it's cool, right, I'm just saying
they should come out with some cool different ship that
people could look forward to. I think I think it'd
be good for the game.

Speaker 3 (26:07):
Yeah, agreed. I'm like, if you just like complete something
and then it'll unlock some laser beams shooting out of
your eye for the next patch, right, Like, that's kind
of nice to have. It doesn't have to be something
that you have to be working on the entire patch.

Speaker 1 (26:21):
Yeah, weird because they kind of added that with the
Ring in the point zero point seven, right, it's like
decently close to that.

Speaker 3 (26:28):
Right, Like if the ring is so boring though, Yeah.

Speaker 1 (26:31):
But it does shoot lasers out of you at targets
what you have? Actually, Yeah, if you got your graphics on,
like you said, maybe they could be cooler looking. They're
not as cool as the essence of animations for sure,
but they're like kind of noticeable.

Speaker 3 (26:47):
Yeah. For me, it would have to be cool if
it's like gameplay changing, right, that's feat of the major factor.

Speaker 1 (26:55):
Yeah. I I also would be down to, you know,
fiece of experimentation in that space again, but I wouldn't
want it to involve grinding during this week, Like, I'm
glad to not be pressured during this week because there's
already a lot of pressure whenever the actual season does start, right, like,

(27:16):
then you are on the clock, like you said, right, Max,
And that's that's like, I don't know, I'm glad we
have one less week of being, you know, sort of
on the clock, especially because it's it's not doing the
fun stuff, right, it's doing the like the boring stuff.
Like my favorite memories of the weeks like this and

(27:36):
BFA and and Legion or yeah BFA Legion was was
like hanging out with my guild watching TV shows while
we were doing Islands or whatever.

Speaker 2 (27:47):
You watched the entire Harry Potter series.

Speaker 1 (27:48):
Yeah, exactly like that. That sort of thing is uh
is the best part of an island grind, and I'd
rather not have that than have it again.

Speaker 3 (27:59):
Well, is not a problem too where next week is
all at once. That's kind of goes and going back
to what I was saying before, can't be just space
it out more so, it's not all that once.

Speaker 1 (28:10):
The problem is like, if there's a good thing to grind,
then you know, if you want to be like on
pace or whatever, you're using all of your free time
on it anyways, right, but.

Speaker 3 (28:21):
Like say, for example, still say say this week M
plus comes out, or next week M plus comes out
and RAID doesn't, then you're not having to like pramin
M plus before Raid night or whenever you're scheduled to RAID,
and maybe maybe like only normal comes out this week
so that you can work on that. You're not having
to like, all right, do your heroic and then you

(28:43):
gotta do your normal and then you're going to jump
into mythic. It just feels like there's too much at once,
and I feel like if they spaced it out, it
could also be on aver solution.

Speaker 1 (28:54):
Yeah. For me, it's like spacing it out kind of
just doubles the uh the especially.

Speaker 2 (29:01):
Because yeah, because then it's like the Mythic plus week.
I guess you're turning old heroic week into Mythic plus week.
And then it's like you have to end that week
with like you got everything you needed for Mythic plus, right,
it's like this finite thing you have to have instead
of like this thing you're constantly chipping away at, which
I think is their idea for Mythic Plus for most
people is like there's probably always a little upgrade you

(29:21):
can get, but it's not huge, and you can go
in there and get it.

Speaker 1 (29:24):
I think that it does depend on the kind of
player you are, though, right like depends on if you're
somebody who has, like, you know, a very limited amount
of hours per week to play the game, it's probably
it would probably be a lot more friendly to have
the game spaced out more like that. Although if you're
somebody like that who takes a week off work or
a day off work or something like that to play
a new expansion or patch, then then it kind of

(29:46):
switches back and again you'd rather have it all be concentrated.

Speaker 2 (29:50):
I'm thinking about it a different way. I think the
player that doesn't have a lot of time, that like,
doesn't log in that much during Mythic plus week is
just not getting invited to pug grades next Tuesday because
everyone else is like fifteen hight levels higher than them
and they're not. We're like Tuesday when the patch comes out.
That's not true.

Speaker 1 (30:04):
Yeah, I guess it's you're kind of toasty either way.

Speaker 3 (30:07):
Yeah, that's true.

Speaker 1 (30:10):
Yeah.

Speaker 3 (30:10):
I will say this is a blessing for me because
tomorrow night Monster inter Whiles does come out, and I
want to play that before season starts.

Speaker 1 (30:19):
Hell yeah, yeah, I'm also like I mean, for me personally,
it's it's tough, Like I I like having a week
of nothing, but I also liked having the Heroic Week, right,
so like I liked the start of it for me personally,
given this the way that I like create content and
do racioral first and stuff casting, the more space added

(30:42):
is the better because like with this setup, for instance,
compared to last season, I'm just gonna have like a
much busier week one. So I'm just gonna you know,
get less sleep or whatever, which does okay, but I
preferred the other way. But like I think, I think
if I was somebody who was just playing the game
without doing all the content creating, but I was just

(31:03):
playing the game as much as I did, I would
probably prefer this to last season. Like I probably prefer
the no heroic.

Speaker 2 (31:09):
Weak even in like top guilds, like the Heroic Week
versus no Heroic Week is pretty like there's a lot
of people in those sus like basically anyone has to
take time off of anything. Hero quek sucks. It's like
doubles the amount of time you have to take off
because Heroic Week is like you're there permanently doing stuff.
The other thing is, like I was talking about this
in my chat the other day. I was having them

(31:30):
guess like the raid comp for the new raid, and
I was like, I'll give you another chance to do
it and then but I'm like, nothing's really gonna change,
and they're like, what do you mean there's gonna be
a bunch of tuning next week. I'm like, no, you're
thinking of like what normally happened in like Narrabar Palace
for example, where like oh, they get four days of
heroic data and then they make a change on Friday
and then maybe a change on Monday. But there they're
gonna have absolutely no more information this Friday and Monday

(31:53):
than they did last week when they did their final
tuning pass again the patches basically and go live the
way it is right now or the season. And then
also the problem is as well, let's just say they
just fix it next week, Well then they really hesitant
to do any kind of nurse during the race, So
like now you're waiting like two weeks to get potentially
proper balance for Mythic plus and for everyone else because

(32:14):
that heroq wek isn't there so I think it does affect.
And also you could just argue the fight tuning could
be bad, you know, like the like there's just something
not great, Like I think Mythic especially, maybe this is
a less prob because like how many people are in
Mythic a week one, not many, It's pretty small. But
for those people, the tuning of those bosses, they have
infinite less information of how powerful you are. Without HEROQ week,

(32:34):
I think it's kind of like all happening at once. Yeah,
speaking of that, how do you think people are gonna
take in the raid next week? I made a tweet
earlier today saying that I think that this is going
to be one of the most or I think, I said,
the most popular raid for more casual players, since Castle
Nathria widely loved by the casual audience. And the theory

(32:57):
is that quality, ray difficulty, all of that stuff is
significantly less important than just a really well executed theme
or aesthetic. And like if you look at all of
the best raids ever, while they did have great bosses,
they had the best some of the best aesthetics in
themes ever, like Nighthole, Black Rock Foundary, Castle Nathria thrown

(33:18):
a Thunder, they like all are hitting on every level,
and this raid you at least know, has the theme.
I think we've talked about this before on the podcast,
But my another thing I wanted to ask you is,
I think the other thing besides theme an aesthetic that
really matters is like a certain boss that doesn't just
fuck you. On Heroic, like a mythic, they're trying to
fuck you, that's the whole point. But like on Heroic,

(33:42):
you know, sometimes there's a Smolder run where you know,
the expectation is every single person in your group has
to soak these five orbs or basically you die. Right,
it's so so punishing you think there's gonna be any
boss like that next week, and if so, which one.

Speaker 1 (34:00):
Maybe Muggsy or Galliwicks.

Speaker 2 (34:03):
Galliwicks is it. Let's just completely ignore Galliwicks. It's an
end boss. And we know anyone who's claiming to like
have an idea of how hard or whatever that's going
to be is totally making it up, right, So let's
just say just from the heroic bosses we've seen, you know,
like maybe sticks, right, like Sticks, if you the people
who all get randomly picked, they kind of have to

(34:23):
like roll over certain things or you kind of die.
You know. That could be one that's like not super
late in the raid. Muggsy isn't too bad. Maybe it's
like people randomly swopping sides of the room. But I
think an early strat for that on Heroic will be
like you literally tag the boss like against the wall
in the side of the room it's in so no
one can like accidentally change sides, and then you just

(34:43):
make a call to swap because like in Mythic, you
know how it changes for every when twenty people are
over on one side, but like literally nineteen won't work.
It has to be all twenty. On Heroic, I think
it's majority.

Speaker 1 (34:52):
It's yeah.

Speaker 2 (34:53):
Yeah, So like that, if you're taking the boss near
the middle of the room, that's like that's gonna be
a disaster. So like, as long as you're taking it
on the wall, I think it'll be fine. I'm just
wondering if there's a boss in this raid that will
make people be like I don't like this.

Speaker 1 (35:05):
Maybe uh Sprocketmonger lockin stock with the like somebody. If
you book two bombs within short time, it blows up
the raid.

Speaker 2 (35:13):
Yeah, But on Sprocketmonger. Can't you have on Heroic there's
a vulan, isn't there?

Speaker 1 (35:19):
Yeah, there's a vulan when you bomb, there's a vulan
on the raid.

Speaker 2 (35:23):
Is there a vultan on the player who blows up bombs?

Speaker 1 (35:25):
Yes?

Speaker 2 (35:26):
How long?

Speaker 1 (35:27):
Two minutes?

Speaker 2 (35:29):
Yeah, so that's hard. So then you can't just have
like one person solo all the minds. That makes it
a joke. It's like you're having I think in each
phase is twelve bombs, so yeahs twelve.

Speaker 1 (35:39):
I think it's twelve on Heroic and sixteen on Mythic.

Speaker 2 (35:43):
Yeah, that's yeah.

Speaker 1 (35:44):
So the Heroic version like is with twelve especially, I'm
not sure how that don't even work in ten player raids.

Speaker 2 (35:52):
It'll just spawn twos on each of four and then yeah,
maybe I think it'll spawn sorry, on Heroic, it'll thirty
man hero Like, it could spawn six minds if it's.

Speaker 1 (36:02):
Because two of the quadrants it's always two quadrants are
electrified and then the other two spawned the minds. But yeah,
maybe it'll scale weird where the difficulties like kind of
easier at thirty because you just have only twelve or thirty.

Speaker 2 (36:13):
Yeah, exactly to say, it would be way easier on
thirty players. There'd be less people on voln every time
you have to make that decision.

Speaker 1 (36:18):
But either way that that strikes me as a boss
for not only that, but also the somebody accidentally not
seeing one in melee and then stepping on it and
blowing up the raid thing. I could see that being
a bit of a heroic brick walls.

Speaker 3 (36:31):
So I don't know anything. Yeah, I don't even think
about these raid fights, but if they were to design
quirky mechanics, you know, only just like I'm trying to
like think of example, like like xani Ish Boss, the
soccer boss. Yeah, yeah, Like I'll think if if they
ever come up with mechanics like that, they just have

(36:52):
to be dumb fun you know, like it just has
to be easy. It has to be something where the
where you can like fuck up, but it has to
be hard.

Speaker 2 (37:01):
It's just un heroic. It can't be it can't be
hard really even your.

Speaker 3 (37:06):
Yeah, but even then, like it depends on how late
into myfic too, because Zanish was kind of an early boss,
and that boss was super annoying to do. Even though
the idea of the fight is cool, it's like it's
supposed to be fun, right, like it's like a soccer boss,
but it just turned out to be frustrating instead.

Speaker 1 (37:22):
Yeah, yeah, I mean, I I think that the mythic
side of things. I don't know the fact that there's
you go so, you go in, you do the first boss,
and then you can go to any of the four
after that. I suspect that there will be ones that
are easy enough that it's like not too bad. But yeah,

(37:47):
I mean, Zanash Xanish was like boss. It was one
of the bosses you could go to forth in a
rate of like twelve bosses, right, and so like, hmm,
this one's only about eight. You know you have to
it gets hard. I think it'll get hard like that.

Speaker 2 (37:59):
I don't know, Like they're doing eight two raids in
a row, which tell me if I'm wrong, I don't
have they done that before? Has that ever happened? Was
Sarkareth boss eight?

Speaker 1 (38:10):
Starkreth I think was.

Speaker 2 (38:12):
Nine?

Speaker 3 (38:14):
No, it was a green Flain was pretty low bosses too, right.

Speaker 2 (38:16):
Yes, maybe maybe Sarcreth was sark was not okay, so
they so I believe this is true. They've never done
two eight boss raids anymore, and in an interview after
season one, uh, they mentioned that they like the number
eight for bosses and I and now they're doing that
for a second straight patch. I just want to see
how that works. That doesn't necessarily mean there's a bad
difficulty curve, like, for example, I don't uh Vault the

(38:38):
Incarnates I think was an eight boss raid, right, yeah,
And I don't. I don't think there was necessarily a
bad difficulty curve in that in that dungeon, like it was,
uh like, I think it was. It kind of increased
in difficulty. That happens, but it doesn't. No, boss to
boss was like, why are we here? Right? They all
kind of made sense and and a mirror just still

(39:01):
Tendril was the boss that didn't make sense when you
got there, and in Last Rade, obviously brew Twister was
the boss that didn't make it.

Speaker 1 (39:06):
Well.

Speaker 2 (39:06):
I guess technically you could have gone to Nexis Princess
at the same time, which would have also been not
a good thing. But my theory is, I just I
think with how hard first bosses are and how hard
end bosses are, this is mostly a mythic thing but
probably also true and heroic. There's just you know, how hard.
At general end bosses, they're relatively within the same level

(39:28):
of difficulty and end boss and then first bosses you
know exactly what to expect. So just bridging that together
with just six bosses in between is such a massive
difficulty jump that like it's hard for there not to
be a boss where it's like, wow, this is way
harder than the last boss we did, you know. So
I just I don't know if eight bosses is a number,
but I also hope that they can figure out a
way to do it this raid.

Speaker 3 (39:49):
Yeah, So one argument I did here against having more
bosses is it'll make raid progression longer for guilds that
are late ce, especially if very low rad hours, like
if you only have two hours a day two or
not two hours, if you only have two nights to
raid per week, you can't really get through that many bosses.

Speaker 2 (40:13):
Yeah, that makes sense.

Speaker 1 (40:14):
It depends on the difficulty, Like to some extent, it
might make it easier. So for instance, if my suspicion
is the thing that's missing is like a nice easy
boss two and three between like Vexi and the next four, Yeah,
that's my If I had to guess right now, it's
a you know, pretty unfounded guess. Obviously tuning could be

(40:34):
pretty different, but my guess is that that would be
the spot in the raid where I would, you know,
use the scalpel and open it up and put in
two more bosses and be between Vexi and well or yeah.

Speaker 2 (40:45):
Like, So, first of all, I'm never advocating for like
twelve plus boss raids. That's I think every raid that's
had that many bosses could have lost a few and
been a better raid. I think that generally speaking, when
you add bosses, you are not adding Bridge Twisters or
Nexus princesses or obviously Silken courts or anything like that.

(41:06):
You're you're adding, at at worst, you're adding in a
ration in which I mean, maybe that extends your guild's
progression by like a night or two or something over
the arm, but I think it would ease the curve
a lot, and it.

Speaker 1 (41:19):
Actually would make progression easier in a lot of cases
as well. If you imagine a rate like okay, imagine
Battle of Tazar Lore and we took out Gronk and
Jade fire Masters, and you're just working on opulence, getting
two less bosses worth of gear every week until you
kill it, like that's gonna make great.

Speaker 2 (41:34):
And it's not fun. Like you could you could make
the argument that, like, maybe people are just looking to
reduce their total amount of raid days in a season,
or a way you could look at it is they're
trying to reduce their total amount of raid days in
a season that fucking suck, right, like doing a raid
if you're signing up for rad I think I know.
There's like, especially in the Mythic plus community, there's these
jaded raiders that just hate rating and they're they're just

(41:55):
for their gear and they fucking hate they have to
do it, and they fuck raid fuck fuf fuck right.
I get that. But there's also people that just genuinely
enjoy raiding but also wouldn't enjoy being on a boss
like brood Twister two or three weeks early because that
raid night is fucking miserable. You have no chance of
killing this boss, right, but you're there. There's that's totally
fucking different than a raid day, where you're fighting a

(42:17):
boss that's fair and you're all improving at it at
a reasonable pace and eventually killing it.

Speaker 3 (42:21):
Right.

Speaker 2 (42:21):
So it's it's it's it's a question of two things.
It's is our is our experience in the patch being extended,
or because it probably is a finite amount of time
people want to spend on raid, Like like, even if
they're all good raid days, do you want to like
raid for five months instead of like three? Like maybe
for a lot of people, maybe no, Right, but I
definitely think there's a huge difference. And that's the entire argument, right.

(42:43):
I think you had an issue with the argument before
of like, how is it making it better? Uh? With
brood Twister being the way it is? If uh, if
you're just the way you're solving it is making an
earlier boss harder, right, Yeah, but like that is the thing.
It's like, there's the exact same guild can fight Mythic
a serect on week one and mythic anserrect on week sixteen,

(43:07):
and they would have fun on week sixteen, and on
week one they would have literally zero fun. They would
be like, what the fuck is happening? Like this is yeah, okay,
very stupid.

Speaker 1 (43:14):
Yeah.

Speaker 2 (43:14):
So simply by changing the time you get to a
boss naturally, by spending your time in the meantime on
a boss that is fair for you, hopefully you can
have the same boss later and you're having fun versus
not having fun.

Speaker 1 (43:30):
I mean, I think even m plus ors that raid
for gear would would welcome the addition of some more
easy early bosses that they can be farming quickly, and.

Speaker 3 (43:37):
Like, uh, you know, maybe is definitely a positive. Yeah,
that's another thing the lines of.

Speaker 1 (43:45):
Like the low time, six hour per week guilds or whatever.

Speaker 2 (43:48):
Well, yeah, but that's another thing, like the bosses.

Speaker 1 (43:52):
If they can be farming a couple more easier bosses
once they get to proguing, you know, the the Kives
or the Silken Courts of the world, their gear will
get better faster, right, Like, yeah, it's gonna take you
an extra twenty minutes of reclear each week or more
if you wipe or something on them. But depending on
where these are where you insert bosses on the difficulty curve,
it could actually make life easier for the more casual

(44:12):
guilds because there's that that will increase the income of
gear if you add it before that like wall in
the raid and raid is missing right because like if
the raid already has like two or three you know,
easy first and second boss level bosses, I don't think
adding more is very good. But again my suspicion with
this rate is that it's missing an easy boss two

(44:33):
and three, And if that's the case, then I do
think adding those like it does good things for everybody.

Speaker 3 (44:39):
Yeah, I don't think it's like getting there is the problem.
It's reclear is what I was getting more at cause
uh like yeah, like it's definitely nice for these guilds
to get to over an x later, but that's not
the problem. The problem is you're they're having to reclaar right,
Like these guys only have say three hours that night,
and if they only have three hours, they can't be
spending that on reclearing some of these the bosses, like

(45:00):
they have to be getting two overnact and doing it.
And these guilds are also usually extend through guilds, so
if they're having to extend on Overnax, they're not getting
all that extra loot from the first I don't want
to say like five bosses would yeah before that.

Speaker 2 (45:16):
But when you're talking about reclear though, like the thing
that really slows down your reclear is the brood twister
in overnacs and plus bosses where you're like, okay, we
might wipe on.

Speaker 1 (45:24):
The it's any boss you might wipe you.

Speaker 2 (45:25):
Yeah, it's any Yeah, Like like killing bosses like more
like third and fourth bosses that like that tier of boss,
the rational tier of boss where like you know you're
just gonna kill it real quick and get gear. Those
are like really efficient. And also to mention about reclearing
or extending, sorry, I think with Crest being a thing,
like those guilds probably know by now that it kind

(45:46):
of only logically makes sense you're going to extend like
every season at some point just because the way crests work,
like there's just the time it takes in the limited
amount of time you have to raid each week to
kill those early bosses because Crest exists is just something
that doesn't really make sense to do. And it's earlier
in the season. It was like not as early as
it wasn't season two Dragonfly, because that was just like
we literally can't get any more strong, yea. But yeah,

(46:06):
and another thing too we learned last patch going back
a little bit about adding more bosses too, is I
think we learned last patch that having four bosses that
could realistically be pugged for a two box and your
vault kind of slaps that's just a good thing, like
a lot of people like that, but you can't have
that in an eight boss rate. Yeah, in my opinion,
like you you cannot have Now, keep in mind, the

(46:28):
last four bosses of Naarabar Palace were probably the last,
like the last four bosses in a row hardest of
all time, right like they they they the poles. Yeah,
exactly right, which is not a raid you want to
be compared to for like regular difficulty. Right, So, uh,
you're you're talking about having you know, the most thing

(46:50):
like like realistically, even though there's eight bosses, it is
highly highly highly slash. I bet everything I owned that
the last four bosses of this raid will not be
harder than the last because the last right happened, right,
So maybe it's possible that it's not that big of
a deal. But I would like the idea of like
there being a good difficulty curve with eight bosses and
still being able to kill the first four in a

(47:11):
pug because I think that is really really good like
for everyone.

Speaker 3 (47:15):
Yeah, I one hundred percent agree. I don't ever see
them doing this again. I feel like them having the
first four bosses being puggle was an anomaly, but I
do hope to see this again. It's such a blessing
for Yeah, a lot of the players who are like
there for gear if they can just kill the first
four bosses and get mythic loot.

Speaker 1 (47:37):
Yeah, I think I actually I agree, Like, I think
that was a nice upside to something that they probably
has more downsides than upsides, which was the overall difficulty
slope of Narrabar. And the way to fix it is
to go up to ten bosses, and I think the
first four be puggable.

Speaker 2 (47:54):
Like basically Blizzard thinks that eight boss is the number,
and I just strongly think it's nine or ten. They're
just missing just one. Like ideally we keep the first
four the way they are and you don't feel like
an absolute idiot pulling Boss number five. But also, bred
Twister was way harder than it should have been, to
be honest with you, even as Boss five. And it
was hard in the worst possible way.

Speaker 1 (48:15):
Yeah, it was not fun hard.

Speaker 2 (48:16):
It was not fun hard. Yeah, so this could be
just a Brede Twister problem, right, because like Nexus Princess
was also like really fucking hard. But next't Princesses was sweet,
you know, if you didn't have to one take it.

Speaker 1 (48:29):
Yeah, although it was the kind of hard where it
was like it wasn't it didn't feel particularly great to
be pulling it while you were under geared, Like if
you were a guild where you're like, Okay, we're gonna
have enough gear to realistically kill this thing in three
weeks or whatever, you didn't really have that much fun
pulling it while you weren't there yet, so you kind
of couldn't go there instead of over an act until

(48:49):
pretty late in the season.

Speaker 2 (48:51):
They also didn't a ton of stuff more last season,
like they just simply overtuned more fights last season, like
the race World First Skills, having Nexus Princess like ready
to die, but then oh, we just have to one
tank it, so plus eighty poles eighty miserable poles right
to kill it like that, That is, even to their

(49:11):
own admission, like okay, that just bob, that boss had
too much HP, right, just very obviously h same thing
with brew Twister being a little bit too hard, and
then silkn Court was probably totally fair, but in fact
you could argue maybe even they nerved it too much,
and then uh, the Queen was insane. Yeah, this this tier,
I don't know, I feel like Blizzard you has a

(49:31):
history of making reactive choices with their tuning. After easy tiers,
they're hard. After hard tears, they're easy. Kind of a
mirrodor still in a Narbar Palace is one of the
few times that hasn't happened ever, Like it's like a
mirror still. Wasn't surprising that it was hard because Aberis existed,
even though Abras wasn't hard because of the raid, it

(49:52):
was hard it was or it wasn't easy because of
the raid, it was easy because of the upgrade system. Uh,
and then Vault before that, you know it too much
Sargaris into Argus, right, ten bosses die in day one
on Argus after Timo Sargaris existed, Like, like, these things
happened pretty normally. I think this raid shouldn't probably be
a step back.

Speaker 3 (50:09):
Well, we could argue that Aberis was just easier mechanically, right,
I mean, I feel like it's very different the raids
we saw so hard to tell.

Speaker 2 (50:18):
Like because how do you tell the pure mechanical difficult? Yeah,
but one shoddy is about how much damage something I'm
doing and how much health you have, Like, like I
do this for a living and I could not tell
you how hard something is genuinely, genuinely on PTR when
we're like super super undergeared, and it seems really really
fucking hard because like, dude, when you have six eye levels,

(50:39):
that was that was the average by the way, our
week one, like this is just race world first, but
this reflects everyone else too. You guys are the same
crest cap as us. We had six eye levels more
in week one than we did relatively in any other
raid ever in week one. Of mythics since I've been
doing the race in Abaris, six eye levels is like

(50:59):
you you could have six less eye levels and something
is one shot versus it not killing you you It
could be you have to use a raid cale and
cool down for this thing, and now it doesn't really
do that much to you. This ad has to be
killed and you have to assign CDs for it and
it just dies. To Natty Klee, like, six eye levels
is an incredible amount of power. It's so much power
that it's hard for me to distinguish the mechanical difficulty
because it's all like it's all fluid. Like if something's

(51:22):
mechanically difficult, it's usually made harder by the fact that
the boss is beating your brains in at the same time, right,
but that wasn't happening because we had so much HP,
So like everything seemed like like for me at least,
it would be impossible to say like that was a
mechanically easy raid on paper because the only time you
can truly judge that is by doing it, and you
were doing it with cheets on basically and well.

Speaker 3 (51:43):
No, So what I meant is, for example, like Silken Court,
it didn't matter how much gear you have, You're just
gonna get one shot if you touch another player or.

Speaker 2 (51:50):
Sold is extremely unique boss fight in that way though,
like I don't even know it.

Speaker 3 (51:54):
Wasn't just that boss. Like if you failed the egg
right yeah, Tindril, if you failed to soak for seeds
right like, you blow up no matter what. If you
get hit by web blades, you die. Doesn't matter how
much gear you.

Speaker 2 (52:04):
Have echoed Melian, if you don't break the right wall,
you all die. If you don't kill the ads when
you go and down, but that's why you die.

Speaker 3 (52:11):
Me can'tical complexity, it's but they're not comparable like the
mechanics that were required in the firing or echo navari
and there were only like a couple of your entire
raiate blows up if x persons up right.

Speaker 1 (52:28):
That is not there is a ton I think you're
there's a little bit of of Echoltherian being super annoying
and stupid.

Speaker 3 (52:36):
Era it was just breaking the walls, right, That's where.

Speaker 1 (52:39):
We had the the debut of the stupid ass map week.

Speaker 2 (52:42):
Or there's someone if people got a five people got
a de buff like five times a phase, and if
one of them went to the wrong spot, your entire
raid die.

Speaker 1 (52:50):
Like it was pretty dumb.

Speaker 2 (52:51):
We have your entire raid dis if you if you
didn't dispelled the right time P. Two, your entire raid died.
If you didn't if the exact people that went down
theres didn't kill the ad, your entire raid died.

Speaker 1 (53:03):
But the thing that made echol like it was still
I think easier than because the thing about Echo Meeltharian
was that the numbers check was free once you have
like even that first week. But then right, yeah, so like,
but that adds a suit an extra layer. If you
were a guild that was smart, you could tell everybody
to just focus on mechanics, right, and it's like your
damage doesn't matter, Like I literally just need you to

(53:25):
stand in the right place for this. We're stopping damage anyways, right,
And like that's not something that was able to be
said about any of Narrabar Palace's bosses exactly.

Speaker 2 (53:31):
That's that's a six eye level thing. So when something
is mechanically difficult, it is made exponentially more difficult when
you are dealing with like the amount of damage you're
taking or the amount of damage you need to do.
But when you remove that like you did in Narbar
Palace because you had six eye levels, every bit of
mechanical difficulty at least in my opinion is I mean again,
I don't really know, because I know that it's impossible
to gauge those things when all of those other things

(53:52):
don't matter and all you have to focus on is
the mechanical difficult right.

Speaker 1 (53:54):
I think you're both right, Like I think that it
you could take the echo of Neltherian mechanics and put
it on a boss where you had to be using
your brain to optimize damage, and it would be very
stupid hard, right, Like those mechanics could really have sucked it,
just it got bailed out from that being a possibility
because the boss's number check was so free. But and
it was still hard for a lot of guilts, right,

(54:15):
like it was still there was still it was still
hard for everybody to get through that part. But like
at least once you figured out the dans, you didn't
also then have to optimize you know, twenty percent more
damage or whatever.

Speaker 2 (54:24):
Right, it was just Also Scarn was nasty too as well. Yeah,
the two bosses previous Magmax as well, Like Magnax is
more like Magmarax is a purely easy.

Speaker 1 (54:33):
Boss or sleeper hard. Yeah, well sleeper.

Speaker 2 (54:35):
Hard, but like bro, can you imagine how hard Magnax
would have been with success eyeable? Like that boss would
have fucking beat your fucking brains in and it only
felt that easy because everything else didn't matter because you
had gear.

Speaker 1 (54:46):
Yeah, so I guess it's like a you know, there
there is a trend. I think to Doroky's point that
it is good, is like there is a trend towards
bosses having mechanics that you literally just have to pass
fail right Like there there are there are a lot
of mechanics on bosses that if you just do them wrong,
your raid wipes right, Like it's not true for Wells.

Speaker 3 (55:09):
Well, it just feels like there's a lot more of
them this time around. And not only is it more,
but it's like more frequent, because like these are happening
every ten seconds instead of like since I want to say,
you're just so, it was like where it really stepped up,
and at least from my experience, like I don't know,
maybe I was like a big one.

Speaker 1 (55:30):
Yeah, I didn't even involve.

Speaker 2 (55:32):
Retraction from yeah easily.

Speaker 3 (55:34):
Yeah, a lot of stuff that killed you.

Speaker 1 (55:36):
I guess I was just raz I had a lot
of stuff that just killed you from hundred zero, but
not your whole raid. But I guess the kind of
synthesis of these two points is that the amount of
those mechanics, whether or not that makes a boss like
nuclear difficulty or not, is dependent on not just how
many stupid ass one shot you know, insane coordination, pass
fail mechanics there are, but also whether that's paired with

(55:59):
a brutally tight numbers check that taxes all of your
brain and power and forces you to you know, be
able to do to walk into you gum. At the
same time, that.

Speaker 3 (56:11):
Is kind of true. I mean, I do feel like
there are significantly less checks nowadays. I remember having conversation
with DPS or number or like healing checks are many.

Speaker 2 (56:25):
You don't know why, right, everybody? Do you do you
know it?

Speaker 3 (56:28):
No?

Speaker 2 (56:29):
Okay? Do you remember when I don't know the white will
you're to say why? Or did you did you play
in Sanctum Domination?

Speaker 3 (56:35):
Yeah?

Speaker 2 (56:36):
Do you remember what everyone hated about that raid?

Speaker 1 (56:38):
Okay, you're you're thinking about the like phase DPS.

Speaker 2 (56:42):
Check but those are chic, yeah, exactly, but those are
like so the thing, the reason why there is no
more checks is the only check that exists on any
boss is when it dies, uh usually or like killing
an ad in time or something like that. But the
reason that is the case is like everyone complained about
damage checks, so damage, yeah exactly.

Speaker 1 (56:59):
Like they can't do a phase one seventy damage teck
without it becoming bullshit once you've gotten phase one on farm,
because then you're stopping damage, get better and better.

Speaker 2 (57:09):
At it, you see, Sarkareth, where like you know, the
phase one is time and the phase two is timed,
and like you can hit like a cap on those,
but not until farm really h not realistically, So the
way they've always done that now is like there is.
There is kind of no checks purely for that reason.
And I also agree with you that like it does
kind of seem like that is a This is actually
so familiar to a mythic plus argument. Actually, remember that

(57:30):
like thing we always talked about a mythic plus where
it's like it feels like you're trying to not die
and we would like you to just try to test
our damage and see if we can do the key level.
It's like the same argument, but the uh so, there
is actually two in this raid, which is really fun.
So like, at least to my knowledge, there are in
this raid on Mythic I think on Heroic too. Actually,
there are phase percentage based pushes, I think for the

(57:53):
first time, and I think since Sanctum of Domination there
might be one on like a not super relevant boss
since then, but it's been many years since there has
been one, and there's a dedicated execute phase on two
bosses that And what I mean by that is like,
for example, Razagath had an excute phase, but the damage

(58:13):
you did in P two to that made the excute
phase easier. What I mean is like there is an
enraged timer that starts when you hit this percentage and
it starts there no matter what, no matter what you
did before that point, which does potentially introduce some damage
holding and stopping stuff potentially, right, But there are like
there's going to be an execute check in in in

(58:34):
two bosses, and again there hasn't even been one boss
in like almost five years that has been like that,
and there's two in a row and they're at the
end of the raid. Yeah, that could be wise. See
Machine a slot Machine and Muggsy both have like completely
dedicated execute phases where the damage you do before that
point at the early part of the fight has absolutely
nothing to do Like it just basically on Muggsy, the
boss's energy goes to zero. When it hits one hundred,
you die and uh the one arm bandit goes through

(58:55):
it's like multiple abilities and it just does this bomb
thing at the end ten second cast then you blow up, right,
but it starts at that percent So if you're looking
for checks.

Speaker 1 (59:05):
Yeah, I mean there have been the way. The other
way that they've implemented DPS checks has been shields on
bosses they have to break, right, like Raza, which also shields.

Speaker 2 (59:13):
There's one on Galewax.

Speaker 1 (59:15):
Yeah, so it's it's it's not like there's been completely
absent of Those are pretty rare too, But yeah, they
think it is definitely true that there's a lot less
like Bosses where you have multiple DPS checks.

Speaker 3 (59:29):
Yeah, it's just like not nowadays, given examples, a lot
of really right now, rating doesn't well, I mean obviously,
like for the past few tiers of rating, I want
to I don't know how long it's been. It's been.
It's definitely been a while where rating hasn't felt like
all right, you got to push damage. It has always
been all right, guys, just play safe. Like literally, as
long as we play safe.

Speaker 2 (59:50):
We'll Oh, you're build rank, I'm pretty sure.

Speaker 3 (59:54):
Probably, but I mean I mean I've been literally the
difference for most Yeah. Yeah, maybe that just means that,
like because like I'm still at a pretty high guilt rank, right,
Like we get ranked every tier like fifty something world
very good. Yeah, but I mean, like, you know, if
that's not high enough to.

Speaker 2 (01:00:11):
Yeah, if you're rank, if you're rating top fifty in
the world and you feel.

Speaker 3 (01:00:14):
Like you and we're just like worrying about just like yeah,
like that that's not a good.

Speaker 2 (01:00:18):
Situation, think about it.

Speaker 3 (01:00:19):
I mean like obviously for you guys, you guys definitely
have that uh you can push damage and make sure
you beef a boss. Bro we had to one tank
next to Princess guys, like yeah, yeah, of course insane.
But for you know, for most of the guilds in
the world, but that's.

Speaker 2 (01:00:34):
Kind of bullshit, Like of just only people who are
experiencing a check are exactly like the race world first
skills like that exact kind of hard to do that though,
because you do just simply get more gear every week,
although the skill level like just on average will go
down a little bit, like the capable throughput through the
weeks as you get gear. Like I remember Rashoc for example,
Rashoc was like a huge letdown because you just it's

(01:00:56):
such an awesome boss but just instantly died. But if
you talk to like almost anyone in the can Unity,
that is not the fucking experience they have with Rashock,
Like Rashock was almost perfectly made to you know, be
pretty challenging for almost anyone who did it because you
just had a dodge fire to kill it. And like
usually when you killed that boss, same thing with sledge fists,
like sledge Fist is usually the most child. The poster
child for this argument is like pretty much anyone. When

(01:01:17):
they killed sledge Fist, it was was not the first
time they got to the end of the fight and
they had to like let it hit the wall and
like tps through it, which is fucking sick. But I
think what they it's it's so hard for them to
actually do that. Actually, it's honestly insane they did that.
Like I can't even imagine they do that now, Like,
how do you create a boss where you're like beating
the massive bang at the end in the race world
first and you're also doing that like two months later.
It just seems especially with a snacking raid buff, it

(01:01:39):
seems impossible.

Speaker 1 (01:01:42):
And yet I mean there is some natural uh pressure
towards that happening because that feeling of like, Okay, now
we're good enough at this boss to deserve to kill it,
and then actually being capped at how much through pret
you can put you can do on that boss, Like
there's probably you can probably get ten percent more damage
in that window, right of like feeling good enough about

(01:02:04):
a kill to then actually being doing the max possible
that your guild could actually do. So as long as
they land it dying somewhere in that range, right, Like,
you're not going to complain if you have a pretty
good poll and then you kill it during say you
kill the slot Machine during its final cast, right, and
it's like, yeah, somebody died thirty seconds before the end, right, But.

Speaker 2 (01:02:22):
Like it's like smaller, that's exactly feel smaller un died
For most people.

Speaker 1 (01:02:25):
It was exactly like the first time you get that
far into the fight, you're going to wipe to it
because it things have gone really wrong, and then eventually
you're going to kill it. Was it on a perfect pole?
Did the poll need to be perfect to kill it? Yes?
For Race World First Kaiveza. No for like almost any
of these other fights that have had an end like that.

Speaker 2 (01:02:41):
And that's the question, is it.

Speaker 1 (01:02:43):
Going to feel satisfying? Right? Because it doesn't feel satisfying
if it's guarding to the first ones and you just
walk in and you kill it on your tenth pole
of the boss because it's so easy that you need
to get very little execution. But as long as you
get past that point of we feel like we deserve
a kill, and then you kill it during it's enraged cast,
they have like a they can it can sort of

(01:03:05):
fit anywhere in there. So I actually think it's not
as hard as it seems to land a boss in
that spot. The main thing that you want to avoid
is you you need to avoid it being impossible to kill,
and you need to also avoid it dying before you
feel like you deserve to kill it, right before you
feel like you've mastered the fight and are kill it.

Speaker 3 (01:03:24):
It's also just it's really hard nowadays for these fights
to have your entire rate alive until the very end. Yeah, Like,
I wonder how many guilds are actually killing, say queen
answerrek with everyone alive the entire time, It's got to
be pretty to rare, right.

Speaker 2 (01:03:41):
Yeah, for most kills I've seen, it's pretty rare. Yeah,
even like seventeen alive or something and then killable that way.
But you could argue that it's good that it's killable
that way, because if they required you to actually have
everyone alive, you know, that would make the boss significantly harder, right,
maybe too hard? How many points answer right now? Like, well,

(01:04:01):
what do the does anyone know? Like the isn't there
like a website of this prog stats dot io? Yeah,
recent poll count, Is there any way to see that
you can see like the amount of kills per week,
and that's been pretty consistent now for a couple of months.

(01:04:22):
And then yeah, it seems like the majority of people
kill it right around two inter poles.

Speaker 1 (01:04:28):
Right, which I imagine that this graph has been shifting.

Speaker 2 (01:04:32):
Leftwards, oh to sports.

Speaker 1 (01:04:34):
That over probably over the first like fifteen weeks, and
then it probably stabilized around there. Yeah, maybe for over
the first ten weeks, and then it stabilized around there. Yeah.

Speaker 2 (01:04:44):
Yeah, it is an interesting thing where like sledge Fit,
like Rashot kind of required you to have everyone like
somehow they created a boss or mid in the raid
where everyone needs to be alive and for like every
guild rank to kill it basically like somehow perfectly scaled
with gear. And well maybe it's just that everyone had

(01:05:05):
the same gear. Maybe that's what I'm missing. Everyone just
kind of had after a couple of weeks, you know,
Attorney Realm.

Speaker 1 (01:05:11):
Yeah, speaking of gear, one question Max that you and
I notably didn't get to ask sars Art about in
our interview with him was about valor stones, which of
course you know we would have like we kind of
dropped the ball and that yeah, asked that we sort
of half ran out of time and sort of have

(01:05:32):
I mean, we obviously could have bumped another question to
fit it in there, but one there was an interview
that did get to valor stones. That was from but
Why Though, who interviewed Morgan Day and Katrina Yepez who
also had that Radario interview. But they interviewed those two
about some general stuff and also some valor stones. And

(01:05:53):
there's a Wowhead summary from which I'm reading now, but
Frank will make sure that links are all to all
of this are available and description and stuff of wherever
you're getting this. But one of the things in there
is so these are the bullet points for valorstones. They
know that valor stones are a hot topic right now,
but their focus has been on crests. Valorstones are in
a weird space where they matter a lot in the
early season. Then you have too many late in the

(01:06:16):
season when crests are limited. It's not in the healthiest place,
and they can do some things. In season two, raids
will drop quite a bit more valor stones. So it
sounds like they are not you know, they're they're not
gonna have they just are bandating it where it's like
the raid bosses will drop more, which obviously, if you're
somebody who kills raid bosses and has had a problem

(01:06:37):
with not having enough valor stones, that will be nice
for you. But the myriad of other pain points around
valorstones will continue to exist this season, which I do
think is unfortunately just.

Speaker 2 (01:06:49):
Like, Okay, the long term thing I think all of
us agree is like, hey, maybe they don't make sense, Okay, cool,
but in the meantime, make world quests that drop valorstones
just give you like like three hundred of them, right
why what? What is the possible argument that they capt
a two thousand Like.

Speaker 1 (01:07:05):
The two thousand cap is the two thousand cap itself,
I think is kind of like if that if that
was just a four thousand cap or a five thousand cap.
I think also a lot of these problems.

Speaker 2 (01:07:13):
Would go maybe maybe, but I think it's much more
egregious that like, when you actually need it, you get
like these You're like a hamster getting like a drip
of water instead of like I know, but like.

Speaker 1 (01:07:23):
That is it's it's double frustrating when you need valorstones
and four days ago you had two thousand and were
capped and you were earning valorstones that didn't count because
you were capped, and now you need them and you
don't have them like that to me at least, that
is the feeling where like I'm gonna blow up the most.

Speaker 3 (01:07:42):
But also if you have four thousand cap and what's
the point of valerstone.

Speaker 1 (01:07:45):
Well you staw durn them and then you spend them, right.

Speaker 3 (01:07:49):
Like yeah, but like you know you'll get them gradually
with uh crests right like.

Speaker 1 (01:07:54):
Yeah, which is great. You've been doing something to get pressed.

Speaker 2 (01:07:57):
And something something to get one of them has to
get both.

Speaker 1 (01:08:00):
It's so bad that you're you're literally if you're if
they with the cat like whenever the cap matters, it's
because it's because you were earning against the cap and
then now you're trying to upgrade and you can't Like
does that ever really need to happen? I don't think so.
I think it's like they don't want you to be
able to hoard valor stones during this first week or
something like that, like farm up to a million d
and uh, you know, never then worry about them, sure whatever,

(01:08:23):
like don't let them, don't let us earn them this
week and then have them be uncapped starting next week
or something like that.

Speaker 3 (01:08:27):
I don't know, like it's uh yeah, maybe it's just.

Speaker 1 (01:08:30):
So stupid that you can. It is so stupid that
you can be at two thousand dollars stones not be hoarding,
just like not have and then get like three pieces
that you need to upgrade, and then you're out of
valors stones and uh and now you don't like and then,
like Max said, you look for how to get them.
You look at your world cust map and it's like
thirty seven valor stones for a world quest and you
need three hundred to upgrade. Your next item is, dude,

(01:08:53):
the worst when you get a side grade, right, It's
like you you get new hero tract shoulders and you're like, okay,
Poger's grid. And then you get Cure a tract tertiary
shoulders and you're like, god damn it, minus five hundred
dollars stones, right, and it's like it's all over the
worst day of your life.

Speaker 2 (01:09:10):
I don't know, man, I I don't play the game
like you like. I play after aggression and I like
start playing my guy and I basically just do like
content to get Cress, and you almost get enough valor
stones from that to keep up with the Crest, at
least before the Crest buff and like every now and
then you run out And I was never capped, and

(01:09:31):
I was playing like hours a day, you know, I
didn't do all this like rep and campaign stuff, so
like definitely kind of a unique case. But I like,
it's just a terrible It's it makes you log off.
It's straight up, straight up like Blizzard, if this matters
to you, it makes you log off the fucking game
when you're out of valor stones then, and you can't
make your guy bigger without a like a completely unreal

(01:09:53):
realistic effort to obtain them.

Speaker 3 (01:09:57):
So over, he actually made a pretty good points about valorstones.
He was saying, I mean the point of them is
so that players are incentivized to like go out and
do content, right, I mean, they just need to have
certain sources of valorstones give more, and I don't think
it should be right.

Speaker 2 (01:10:15):
It's gotta be like okay, even then, you're basically saying
by doing the content that you're already doing because you
want to do it in the game, they need to
give you more so you don't run out of it? Okay,
why does this exist? Why is it there?

Speaker 1 (01:10:27):
Like if if any time you could spend valor stones,
it involves spending crests, and the process of doing the
crest gives you enough valorstones that you don't run out
of them?

Speaker 2 (01:10:37):
What are we doing?

Speaker 1 (01:10:37):
What is the point of them? Right? You know?

Speaker 2 (01:10:41):
Did they answer that? Did they? Were? They were asked
us in an interview? I didn't listen to it. Did
they did they say? Like, here's actually why valor stones exist?
And it made sense.

Speaker 1 (01:10:50):
It wasn't the question that looks like wasn't phrased that aggressively.
It was more like are there plans to improve it?
Or something like that? But oh god, yeah again you
know it's uh, I I don't think that, Like so,
I mean, yeah, you're right, dorky, right, like the best
the best sources those radium decos and like if they
want us to be doing radian decos, I guess that's okay,
But it doesn't even make it clear that that's a

(01:11:11):
good source of valor stones. Really like that.

Speaker 3 (01:11:14):
There are a lot of people, I mean, ultimately, I
think they just want you to be doing other forms
of content too, Like collecting valorstones.

Speaker 1 (01:11:19):
Yeah, they want you to be doing the press, right,
like they want you to go do some delv well
vis or side Yeah, yeah, exactly, you know, the theater
troup stuff, which uh again, like if they think that's good,
then I guess I just I just disagree that that
should be. I disagree that that somebody who you know

(01:11:40):
wants to log in and do like ten keys should
then feel like, oh man, I should only do this
if I'm also willing to go and do a bunch
of delves for Radian decos, or go and do like
this world content. Right.

Speaker 3 (01:11:50):
Well, I mean, but it's the same with like raid gear, right,
like a lot of them. Plusers don't want to do
raid if if you just want the gear, but you know,
Lizard wants you to be doing Raid to get gear
and in the similar thing that they want you to
be doing over forms of content out there in the
world to collect valor stones. Yeah, and again haply said that.
But that's how I view it.

Speaker 2 (01:12:09):
If only someone had an interview with the rewards designer
and they could have asked this exact question.

Speaker 1 (01:12:13):
Yeah, yeah, we'll never know. We'll never know.

Speaker 3 (01:12:15):
Yeah, especially if it was on podcasts too.

Speaker 1 (01:12:18):
That's true. I mean, hey, if it had been a podcast,
there would have been enough time.

Speaker 2 (01:12:21):
To that is interesting. Certainly I hadn't thought about that,
but that is true.

Speaker 1 (01:12:26):
Good point. Yeah, I don't know. Again, like it's it's
a fair point dorky right to some extent, like the
valor Stones case is a case of people complaining about feeling,
you know, forced to do stuff they don't want to do,
and to some extent, the game should do that to
you know, like you'll never do anything if there's not
incentives to go and do it, right, Like that's how
rewards work is they push you to do things. And

(01:12:48):
for me, it's just a case of like Valorson's existing
is this kind of universal currency. But then some sources
are better than others, and those sources are the parts
that I don't find fun. Yeah, yeah, don't even find
him that on fun compared to moost people. Again, like
I I I suspect I've done more theater troops than
the than ninety nine point nine percent of wold players.

Speaker 3 (01:13:10):
Confidence.

Speaker 1 (01:13:12):
I'm recently confident.

Speaker 2 (01:13:13):
Like Omega casual, well you can.

Speaker 1 (01:13:16):
I did it like once per week on all my
guys for the uh you know, because it's like, oh,
it's a good source of allisons and some carve crests
or whatever, And like what does vault slots?

Speaker 2 (01:13:24):
What does casual mean to you? By the way, like
just in general, and someone says I play the game casually,
what does that mean in your head?

Speaker 3 (01:13:30):
What pops up time? I think people always say it's
like a skilled thing nowadays, but I think it's time.

Speaker 1 (01:13:37):
I wasn't gonna say skill, I was. I was just
gonna say, like, what kinds of content they're likely to do?
Like I suspect they're much more likely to be like
a Mythic plus player without a without a dedicated raid team,
or if they do have a dedicated rade team, it's
like a one night you know, heroic situation or one
night normal situation, rather than like like I bet that
I would say they probably don't raid Mythic.

Speaker 2 (01:13:54):
Well, it's definitely about time. He's right about that, because
like that that is that is straight up linear with skill,
Like like if you don't play the when you play
the game a lot, it turns out youre gonna get
a lot better.

Speaker 3 (01:14:03):
At it, Right, But what about someone who's like uh,
collector that plays, Yeah, twelve hours a day.

Speaker 2 (01:14:09):
They're not. If you're playing Wild twelve hours a day,
you're not a casual. That's there are.

Speaker 1 (01:14:15):
Casual though that are like because it's like they're only
doing the poor casuals.

Speaker 2 (01:14:18):
Yeah, exactly right, And it's like that just sounds ridiculous.

Speaker 1 (01:14:21):
Well yeah, but it's because casual has like it's one
of those words where it just has like ten.

Speaker 2 (01:14:26):
Different Yeah, it can be used like we look back.

Speaker 3 (01:14:29):
Yeah, if we look back to like the original meaning
back in like good old Classic, Wow, it literally just
meant like how much time you put in the game, right,
Like everyone had a common goal back in the good
old days.

Speaker 1 (01:14:38):
Well, the main the main thing that mattered in Classic
wasn't how good you were with how much you played,
right Like.

Speaker 3 (01:14:44):
That's yeah, well well I mean not in fact the hour.

Speaker 2 (01:14:48):
Back then, it probably wasn't like back then. There's probably
even as a game that seems as simple as Classic
is now, there's probably a pretty big skill difference back
then because everyone sucked so bad at games, like the
general to recy of video games and so.

Speaker 1 (01:15:02):
But like the median player's skill was, you know, the
thing that would separate most people was more like how
much they played rather than that.

Speaker 2 (01:15:09):
I mean, that's just like how it works. Like if
you look at like someone asked, like, what like what
do I need to do to like be in a
RACI world first Skill now used a couple of examples
of people who started playing the game like actually three
or four years ago, uh in Tobo and Hopeful basically,
and it's like they just played the game all day,
every day for that amount of time. And also you
probably have to be you know, naturally you could do

(01:15:31):
that and not be as talented as them and maybe
not get as far, but you'd get way fucking better
than you are right now. Right like time time is
time and skill are very closely related.

Speaker 1 (01:15:39):
Well, yeah, I think there's.

Speaker 3 (01:15:39):
Also, to be fair, a lot of people who don't
care about getting better if you just like play a
lot for.

Speaker 2 (01:15:43):
Her, right, which I think it's not even be doing
content that you can improve at, like how much better
can you get it? Mount for me?

Speaker 1 (01:15:48):
Me?

Speaker 3 (01:15:48):
Right?

Speaker 1 (01:15:49):
In fact, I would say that's probably one of the
things that is most associated with being casual, is like
if you're the kind of player who's not playing to
improve yourself as a primary goal, right, it's like you're
you're you know you're playing, have fun, right, and like
getting becoming better at the stuff you're doing each season
overseason is not is not a priority for you. Right Again,
that's not all casual players, but I think that would

(01:16:10):
be one of the three lines. I do think though that, Yeah,
like in retail Wow, compared to in classic Wow, playing
a lot is definitely still necessary to being super sick,
but I don't think it's like sufficient anymore. I think
back in classic days, if you played a lot and
you were decently you know, competent and able to synthesize
information reasonably well and like learn things, you could become

(01:16:33):
you know, a high warlord or whatever and nax raider.
Right Like, if you played twelve hours a day and
you weren't and you tried, that was probably enough. Whereas
I don't think that's true anymore, right Like, I think
that there are people that play a lot and try
to be good and are not, Like, your ceiling is
lower if you're not like being good at learning, you

(01:17:00):
should be doing, right, Yeah.

Speaker 2 (01:17:01):
You can play the game a lot and not have
a mindset to improve and get totally different results than
if your time you're spending in the game is like
purely to improve, like you will get you know, that's
just how it getting better.

Speaker 1 (01:17:11):
And you know, obviously there were people in Classic who
like made literally zero effort. But I think in Classic,
if you made like even a ten percent of the
effort that you know was.

Speaker 2 (01:17:19):
Just thinking about it. I just I don't know why
this popped in my head. When do you think in Wow, like,
for example, you know, everyone talks about like if you're
a new player in retail, Wow, one of the biggest
criticisms there's too much going on, it's too complicated, Like
it's just like too much to take in at once.
Don't you think that's probably how Classic felt back then,
when no one had ever played a game anything remotely
like that.

Speaker 3 (01:17:39):
Well, but compare to if.

Speaker 1 (01:17:42):
You were playing it was either your first MMO or
you came from a much more complicated game.

Speaker 2 (01:17:46):
Yeah, true, true, interesting, But I think most people while
got so big that I think you could definitely conclude
that most people did not come from a more complicated
but nobody a new game easier.

Speaker 1 (01:17:58):
Nobody came from like an easier to Wow, right, like Wow,
was your first MMO or was.

Speaker 2 (01:18:02):
Their first game?

Speaker 1 (01:18:03):
Or was your first game? Or it was an easier
arm than what you played, whereas now.

Speaker 3 (01:18:07):
I mean, it was pretty well known back then that
uh where the worllcraft was like the care Bear MMO,
that's what they called it. Back then it was like
the casual MMO and nowadays.

Speaker 2 (01:18:18):
Okay, but Wow Wow blew up gaming so much that, like,
I think the amount of people that were playing Classic Wow,
that number absolutely dwarfed anyone else playing MMOs before that point.
Like that's only if you came from other momos like
there was that was so many people introduction into PC
gaming or just gaming in general that I would bet,
you know, for that player, which you can't say all

(01:18:40):
players for that player, but I bet you're just in Wow,
You're just like what the fuck is going on? Maybe
just like you are now. That wasn't what I was
gonna ask. I was gonna ask at what point in
retail that wasn't the case, Like like basically, at what
point in history would you have actually played Wow? And
it's like, Okay, this is I've played games before. This
is a game that makes sense and it's not like
this massive different thing you have to learn.

Speaker 1 (01:18:59):
Well, I kind of think that it's easier to play
a super complicated game if it is like your first game,
rather than if you've had some experience playing more user
friendly games. Right, Like if you're if you're in the
nineteen twenties and you're like, I want to learn how
to drive a car, right, and then all the cars
are like you gotta get you gotta like learn how

(01:19:20):
a car actually works, and like have like a ten
step automobile manual. Dude, what the fuck is that's? Okay?

Speaker 2 (01:19:26):
What kind of argument you're making? Automatic people automatic cars?
Back then, they would be cruising in fucking ten minutes.

Speaker 1 (01:19:33):
They mean, but because they didn't have access to that.
Everybody thought that the F one fifty was cool and
easy to use, right.

Speaker 3 (01:19:38):
Because they know they.

Speaker 1 (01:19:41):
Didn't have access to nowadays. Right, nowadays everybody has, you know,
you could you can go and play Fortnite, which will
hold your hand beautifully well into getting getting into the game, right,
or Diablo four. You can play Diablo four and like
get eased into a nice gaming experience, right. Or you
can play Wow, which which is the Ford f one
fifty next to the modern cars, right, and like yeah

(01:20:03):
that by comparison, now it's not like automobile Wow. This
is better than a horse and carriage. Right, It's like,
oh man, this is an automobile. It's worse than you know,
a Prius or whatever or whatever modern car I can get.
I don't know why use Prius for example, but I
think I think there is some element of that. I'm
not sure that's that explains the whole story, but I
do think that's part of it. Why why Wow, even

(01:20:24):
though it was more complicated, was like more accepted for
being sort of fiddly back then because like there just
wasn't a lot of non fiddly games you could play.

Speaker 2 (01:20:32):
It was also just the best game in the world
by a lot, right, I think that also helps.

Speaker 1 (01:20:36):
Yeah, whereas now it's like that's not the best game
in the world.

Speaker 2 (01:20:38):
But I mean it's totally subjective. I mean I still, yeah,
I have more fun playing the any kind of PvE
combat and Wow more than any other game in the world.
It is just there's nothing in the world that be
doing that in a group of people. You doing that
with a group of people you enjoyed. But you know,
I think it'd be hard pressed to be like, this
is the best game. It is.

Speaker 3 (01:20:56):
Yeah, Okay, So was an initial question that Max was asking, Oh, Frank,
before we go to the Patreon question, I need you
to blur out the part where Dorky's started some fucking
sentence with like someone said something good on the bench
and then he continued that sentence.

Speaker 2 (01:21:17):
Just remove everything associated with that. But what I was
saying was like, I don't know, just popped into my
head that I'm like, I correct. I actually tried to
get someone into retail recently that wanted to get into it,
and my head was spinning trying to explain to them
how to do it. And I probably hopefully should be
good at that, I was not. You know, It's it's
just really hard and there's a lot going on. And

(01:21:39):
I bet in Classic anyone would have had that exact
same experience with anyone else trying to play that game
for the first time as well, especially because just like
general video game literacy is just so much less than
it isn't twenty twenty five. So I just wonder, basically,
if there was ever a point in whow where they
had a good user experience and general video game literacy
was high enough to where it would have been easy
to get into it. It's a really weird theoretical question

(01:22:01):
that there is really no answer to. It is just
interesting to think about.

Speaker 1 (01:22:04):
Yeah, basically my theory can be some down to know.
The Wow was never like that. There was just a
time when it could get away with it without getting
called on it.

Speaker 2 (01:22:12):
Yeah, and that's no longer true. Yeah, I think you're right.

Speaker 1 (01:22:16):
Okay, patrenon question, Let's do the Patreon question nop. This
one comes from Brian G. I like this first name,
last initial thing because it reminds me of severance.

Speaker 2 (01:22:26):
Yeah. Yeah, very good.

Speaker 1 (01:22:27):
This one from Brian G, who says, hello, the good
version of the bench. Longtime listener, first time caller. Here.
Picture this. You're eighty two on your deathbed, so not
far in our futures. You've gone senile right now, some
would say, and your family is desperately trying to connect
with you, but you don't seem to care at all.
Your lost daydreaming about your prime back when you played

(01:22:49):
World of Warcraft with this picture in mind. My question
is which Wow memory are you looking back on the
most fondly? Is a specific memory? Is it the teamwork
that got you to where you are? Is it depleting
siege of else while keeping other podcasters.

Speaker 2 (01:23:01):
Waiting that's such a good moment.

Speaker 1 (01:23:03):
All all ancestor or all answers are valid patios. That's
a good question.

Speaker 2 (01:23:10):
That's super easy.

Speaker 3 (01:23:10):
That's an easy one.

Speaker 2 (01:23:11):
Easy.

Speaker 1 (01:23:12):
I bet yours is a nazare.

Speaker 2 (01:23:15):
I mean, I don't even know if it would even
be a specific boss. It's just the fact that, like
right now, this is true, this is actually gonna happen.
In a few days, some fucking person or entity of
people is going to pay me and my friends a
bunch of money and give us a private chef to
go to like a facility and play games together for
a couple of weeks that have That's like, that's that's
our life, right, Like you get caught up in doing this,

(01:23:37):
but that is it is not lost on me at
least that twenty years from now, even before I'm senile,
hopefully right, I will I will be like that It's
insane that I was able to do that, that we
were able to do that, Like winning, winning is awesome,
but the fact that that even existed at all is
fucking sick. That's what I look back.

Speaker 3 (01:23:57):
On for me would definitely be the MDI situation where
we played our first MDI and beat up going Cups
and then came back.

Speaker 1 (01:24:07):
To streaming gone crazy.

Speaker 3 (01:24:09):
Yeah, yeah, that was really hype.

Speaker 1 (01:24:12):
Yeah, I remember actually I remember that week. You guys
were like, uh, you guys were heroes of the region
for like a whole month after that.

Speaker 3 (01:24:20):
Oh yeah, for like many reasons too, because it's like, yeah, well,
for one, you know, we're just like a streamer team
and nobody really expected a whole lot out of us.
It's like, oh, it's it's some group of high key
players doing keys for the first time or doing MDI
for the first time, and we just also like that
was like the first time we took a massive break
from streaming where like we were just going hard in
the hyperbolic time chamber for I don't know, like a

(01:24:43):
month and a half or so. So it was just
like a lot put into it and a lot came
out of it, and there was like nothing more satisfying
than getting that fueling.

Speaker 1 (01:24:55):
Oh yeah, yeah for me, I mean I could think
of some boss kill like playing Wow that have been
pretty memorable for me. That like Boss of like Fire
Act even that just it felt like, you know, my
guild then we had progressed well and you know, killed
the boss quickly, and we're really happy about it. But
I also I definitely for me the favorite part is

(01:25:18):
also like getting paid to go to you know, events
with a private chef and talk about world of warcraft
on a couch, you know, as a profession is a
is Also it's also not lost on me that that's
like a uniquely good setup in for me in terms
of like was just like you know, in human history,

(01:25:39):
it's lucky that I was born at a time when
that's possible, because I've I doubt I would have had
as much fun, you know, being a surf in the
fifteen hundreds or whatever. So it's it's pretty awesome, all right, Cool?
Any anything else besides stuff we've already talked about that
you guys would like to cover today, anything we missed,

(01:26:01):
any any points you guys like to revisit, going once,
going twice? No, all right, that's gonna be it then
for our party c this week. We will be back
possibly next week. Me and Dorkey might figure something out.
Almost certainly we're not gonna have Max for until the
race is over. That would be my strong suspicion.

Speaker 2 (01:26:21):
And we may you might I'm finding out, like why
I didn't talk for the last minute, I'm finding out
that like my stuff can't be at the facility until
like hilariously close to the race because of some dumb
content shit. So I can probably film more stuff.

Speaker 1 (01:26:37):
Yeah, I mean we'll We'll have some bonus stuff up
on the Patreon as well, so do check that out
if you want some more we'll record that, have some
stuff there pre planned. But again, just as we move
into the race, you know things are going to be
a little bit unpredictable. So but yeah, thanks so much
for watching all the beautiful listeners of patrons and stuff,
and we'll see you when we see you.

Speaker 3 (01:27:00):
Yours audios are yours.

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Ep. 61 - so the new patch is out...

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.css-14f5ked{margin:0;word-break:break-word;display:-webkit-box;-webkit-box-orient:vertical;box-orient:vertical;-webkit-line-clamp:2;overflow:hidden;}Ep. 61 - so the new patch is out...