Ep. 62 - The A-Team Takes Over w/ Growl & Avade - The PoddyC

Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:00):
All right, welcome to episode sixty two of the pottyse.
This week we have a very exciting episode. Patch eleven
point one is finally out with the release of the
Raid and Mythic Plus. But first joining me my co
host Dorky and Although Max is busy fighting the good
fight right now in the Race to World first at
the Alienware facility, joining us is an equally skilled the guest,

(00:22):
a former Liquid Raider, a Mythic Plus dominator in an
overall world of Warcraft Brainiac, my good friend of aid.
It's good to see you back playing the game. Buddy.
How have you been enjoying the patch so far?

Speaker 2 (00:33):
I've been having a good time. Mythic Plus is a
lot more fun than it was last season. Thanks for
inviting me to the show.

Speaker 1 (00:40):
Yeah, it was my idea as the host of the podcast.

Speaker 3 (00:44):
Yeah yeah, I mean we didn't have drat Nose or
Max available this week. I was actually trying really hard
to find time with drat Noose. But I mean with
him casting raceed war First, he's doing great job, by
the way, and just like him, ratings seven days a week,
super try hard pottyc I mean, we're just like all

(01:04):
raiders out here. In fact, even my guild we killed
sticks this week and yeah, I was trying to talk
about some store first stuff. Yeah wait no, no, not sticks.
That's impressive for a Rake reaverb god, I forget what
the name of the rest star? Yeah, so, Vade, you
stopped rating in Liquid right?

Speaker 2 (01:25):
Like?

Speaker 3 (01:26):
Why people want to know? People always ask what happened
to Evade?

Speaker 2 (01:29):
Well? I love all the guys in that guild. I
really like reading with them, and I love rating in
the guild, and I still want to do it, but
I don't like it as much as I don't like
doing or playing. You know. However, many characters they end
up playing. I think this tier they had like a
minimum of fourteen or something like that, because both Echo

(01:50):
and Liquid need to keep up with each other with
number of characters because it's a huge gear advantage. And
I don't like playing that many characters. I mean, it's
just plant out.

Speaker 3 (02:00):
The main reason, I mean, is there anyone that actually
does in Liquid?

Speaker 2 (02:08):
Every single one of them would prefer to not play
more characters and would prefer to play less. But the
reason that they're okay with it is because their goal
oriented towards you know, winning.

Speaker 3 (02:19):
Yeah, of course they just have to.

Speaker 1 (02:22):
Yeah, that's kind of funny. I feel like if one
of the biggest differences in the race World first guilds
and the other guilds is like that crazy level of preparation.
Now like I was talking earlier with Tuttles about remember,
like back in the Legion and BFA, you would always
hear the cope of all the like middling ranked guilds
being like, yeah, if I rated, you know, all day
every day, I could be World first two or like

(02:43):
we'd be Top five two. We just don't raid those hours.
But nowadays, like everybody rates like six days, seven days
a week, and like one of the big things that
those guilds have to do to separate is just like
actually put in crazy amount of prep crazy week or
as have infinite splits fifteen characters, and it's like that's
the sort of area where it's like, I don't know,
it's very, very tough for anyone to compete with.

Speaker 3 (03:06):
Yeah, it's actually insane.

Speaker 2 (03:08):
It keeps getting more insane every tier as well, just
more and more things to like squeeze out any bit
of an advantage that you can. But they're both kind
of squeezing out the advantage, so you know, it kind
of gets equaled equalized.

Speaker 1 (03:25):
It's gotta be hard, though, right, because I feel like
a lot of the like sort of what Dorky said
about the racing world first, where it's like all that
prep stuff and like all the prep, like it's just
not fun for anybody. But at the same time, like, man,
it's gotta feel worth it when you like kill the boss,
you know, I feel like there's no other feeling in
maybe not gaming, but like, you know, especially for the warcraft,

(03:45):
where it's like you get the first kill of the boss,
and like you kill the boss that no one else
thought was possible with all your boys, and you just
see everyone like popping off and jumping around and stuff Like.
I feel like that's the hard part to quantify, is
like all that work is crazy, but then when you
finally get the payoff, it's like nothing else that you
can experience.

Speaker 2 (04:02):
Yeah, it has really high highs, but it also has
really low lows. So you know, it's a bit of
a trade off because if you don't end up doing well,
then it just feels like, oh my god, like we
did all of that and we didn't win. So everyone's
like super hyper focused on winning obviously at all times.

Speaker 1 (04:20):
But yeah, what about you, dorky. I mean, I'm pretty
sure it's like pretty public knowledge and all that you've
at least had a chance to try with Liquid. Why
have you not like given it a shot or like,
do have you ever had thoughts on rating recent world first?

Speaker 3 (04:36):
I mean, so my circumstances were slightly different.

Speaker 1 (04:41):
For me.

Speaker 3 (04:42):
It was honestly for me, it was more about the
effort and money because if there was a part of it, no. Yeah, So,
like Max was like trying to convince me to join
Liquid at the time, he was like, oh, yeah, it's
gonna be great. Ye, like there's nothing like this, You're

(05:02):
probably gonna love it and all that. I'm like, yeah,
like this actually sounds great. So I told Max I
would do it, but you know, I would have to
like first talk with the Liquid guys, and uh. When
I was signing the contract with them, there was like
a bunch of stuff with like vo ad revenues and
like the amount of streaming and all that stuff, and

(05:24):
it kind of boiled down to was this going to
be worth it for me to do? And I kind
of like you know, like hesitated and decided like ah,
maybe I shouldn't do this and have a time, you know,
Like I'm kind of glad I didn't, because that was
going to be for Sepulcher and Sepulcher what it had
been off, you know. I mean there was like one
over time before that. Yeah, but that was the tier

(05:46):
where they what you weren't rating the event, right.

Speaker 2 (05:50):
That's a tier I stopped playing. I played the tier
before and then I quit, So I also dodged.

Speaker 1 (05:56):
No, isn't Isn't that the tier where you showed up
randomly on a ball and killed it?

Speaker 2 (06:01):
Yeah, like that was kind of funny.

Speaker 1 (06:03):
I remember talking with you and we were trying to
pug and you would link pugs. What was that boss
called the guard Lord. It was like the like the
fifth day of the pass and you would link a
pug Lords of Dread achievement.

Speaker 2 (06:18):
They were still wouldn't invite me.

Speaker 1 (06:19):
Then they were like, who is this guy? Why is
he spoothing these achievements?

Speaker 3 (06:26):
You got mercenary that he is out?

Speaker 2 (06:28):
Yeah, I mean you're a big dorky, so I mean yeah, it.

Speaker 3 (06:32):
Was just a lot to kind of take in, right,
like between having to streams fortin hours and like potentially
losing out on ad revenue money and just like committing
to all this, And I mean, like, I'm glad I
didn't have a time, because like it was a several curve.
Those guys were there for like an entire fucking month,

(06:54):
and they seemed pretty burnt out from that here, So
I'm kind of glad I didn't at the time, But now,
like looking at this, I'm like, man, this actually seems
kind of sick.

Speaker 1 (07:08):
Yeah. I mean I think everybody has that sort of feeling, right,
Like you see the Racer World First and you're like
all hype about it and you're like, dang, I wish
I could be there, Like it'd be so cool to
be at the facility and you're watching like chef Heidi's
food and you're just like, you know, rpeing is a
world first rder, But then the other five months out
of the tier, you're like, you know whatever, I don't know.
I sort of see what you're saying, though, like, you know,

(07:29):
maybe you could have gotten uh dragged into it. But
I don't know the other thing about Racer World First.
I don't know if this is true really for a
lot of people, but I feel like one of the
things I like about playing with both of you guys
is like you don't really play for like the fame
of the glory. You're like trying to be recognized or like, like
you guys both just like appreciate the game and like
playing well and stuff like that. And I feel like
that's probably something where like a lot of people just like, oh,

(07:52):
I want to be in Liquid, I want to be
in you know, this number one guild in the world
that you know, whereas you guys like you'll genuinely just
only do it if you want to have fun and
you want to compete and like you enjoy the game
rather than just like doing it to be in the
guild or whatever.

Speaker 3 (08:07):
Yeah, I would say for us, I think a large
part of this because we've been in the game for
a long time and we've already kind of been at
that point, Like you know, I obviously haven't competed in
Races War first, but like I've already kind of done
like all the tgps and mdi's and of eight has
already been up there. So for us, it's probably a
little bit different, but definitely for a lot of the
newer players who are trying to join, very a lot

(08:29):
more ambitious and very a lot more going forward, like
I want to be Liquid, I want to be Echo.

Speaker 1 (08:36):
Yeah, that was at least me when I started, Like
I remember watching the Race World first, it was like
one of the first times it was streamed. When I
started playing with MBFA, and it was uh. I was like,
you know, oh man, that's gonna be so cool, and
I was like happy moving up the ladder. But eventually,
you I sort of found a home with Humble where
it was like people that were skilled enough that rating
was fun, but at the same time, like you weren't

(08:58):
raiding crazy hours or eating some crazy prep. So like,
you know, I think it's good to have a goal
and like want to aim up or whatever. But at
the same time, like eventually with a Wow, you sort
of like find a home where you like rating, or
I guess you just don't rate at all and just
play the game whenever you want, like a Vaden.

Speaker 2 (09:15):
Yeah. The the things that I value most in the
game and have kind of always is playing with my
friends and just having a good time. That always matters
the most to me. I kind of just like ended
up in Liquid, so I kind of got lucky in
that regard. But yeah, like every time I lung to
the game now and I think about like pugging or something,

(09:36):
I'm just always like, man, I wish I could just
tag a friend with me so that we can go
do something.

Speaker 1 (09:42):
Yeah, that's that's one thing that we get a lot
of flak about on is like on our streams. Is
like telling people that just like, you know, I feel
like a lot of people are a little bit different
and they like playing the game, so a little bit
just having friends and like playing the game with the
same people makes it like infinitely more fun. But I
don't know, before we before we stray too far off,
I do want to talk about the raid a little bit.

(10:03):
So the last two tiers have been, I mean, for me,
like in not a Super series Guild brutal, Like uh
a fire Ract was brutal, Tindrill was brutal, and then
we go right into this next raid and it's just
insanely brutal again, to the point where like I don't
even end up finishing it. Queen antsrec was like unnerved,
one of the one of the most difficult bosses, and

(10:24):
I feel like everybody was expecting this tier to be
like easy. They sort of expected this like knee jerk
reaction from Blizzard to like, you know, not go too crazy,
and then we just end up with like what is
arguably the hardest heroic it has ever been. And then
like just absolutely crazy mythic bosses starting at like four.
I know, Dorky you talked with like scars Art a

(10:47):
little bit about the the slide oh yeah, yeah, yeah
oh guys.

Speaker 3 (10:52):
And the yeah, the Potty guys minus me, the B
team of the pottyc this is the A team. Yeah yeah,
I was gonna say I that shit is bullshit, like
god damn. So, I mean this affects probably my guild
of the most I know. I know a lot of
you guys listening are race enjoyers, probably like ninety percent

(11:12):
of the podcast at least, and I'm I'm a Raid
race worl first enjoyer too, But I feel like this
is getting out of hand. These Raid bosses are absolutely ridiculous,
especially Rick Reverb and what was it called sticks, Like
we haven't seen the later ones yet, so I can't
really comment on those, but I mean, Rick Reverb starting

(11:36):
off of that one, that fight is so orangey right now.
I mean, I'm sure it'll get better once people get gear,
but right now, like, the only way you can realistically
clear that fight is by having a bunch of multi
daughters or if you have lucky spawns, or you could
probably just like play out of your minds and everyone
just doing insane damage because like, the barrels are so

(11:59):
stupid on that fight, you have a chance of them
just spawning all over the place, making it so that
you have to run around trying to kill the barrels
and you're losing a ton da image if the DPS
check is really tight, and I mean sticks, don't get
me started with sticks, Like sticks is a terrible fight.

Speaker 1 (12:22):
Are we just like normally, like we have to we
have to get a little bit of raid hating energy normally,
Draytons and Max are just like, yeah, Tendril, best fight ever, rack,
greatest fight of all time. Like, I don't know, how
do you feel about the the raid difficulty creep overall?
Are we just like Mythic plus haters that want our
free loot or don't?

Speaker 2 (12:42):
Well, Okay, so I haven't done Mythic obviously, so I'm
just kind of speculating based off watching them play. But
I would be curious to see what most people think,
because it seems like the sentiment is that the raid
being too hard is just bad. Like I hear mythic
rating guilds saying that the raid being too difficult is bad.
I hear every just kind of echoing that sentiment. And

(13:03):
I can tell you that, you know, if the raid
was easy for the race, like for the guilds, they
wouldn't really care, right because they're it's not race to
beating the hardest boss. It's just race to completing the raid, right,
It's about how quickly it's done. Now, obviously, if it
was done in one day, that sure they would be bombed, right,
But if it was done like five days or something,

(13:23):
or four days, then that would be I mean successful.
In my opinion, I think it would be completely fine.

Speaker 3 (13:30):
Well, there there is some incentive for a longer raid, right,
Like a longer rate technically means more sponsors and longer viewership.
So there was definitely bad going for it. Yeah, yeah,
Like as a competitor, it's definitely.

Speaker 2 (13:46):
I just tell you from my personal standpoint when I
was writing in the guild like, it wouldn't matter, right,
Like it's just a race. Whoever wins wins. Doesn't matter
how long it is. So I think the raid just
my gut reaction is that I do think that they're
making the raids kind of too hard. And it's interesting
because usually they do ping pong the difficulty kind of

(14:07):
and so coming off of last year, you would have
expected them to maybe make this rate a little bit easier.
But with Sticks being what the fourth boss and he
being as hard as he is, it's kind of crazy,
to be fair.

Speaker 3 (14:19):
It's not exactly fourth most because it could be like,
you know, one of the.

Speaker 2 (14:23):
Yeah, yeah, I like the options of picking whichever the
second boss is, but I think the reality is that
most people end up just doing the same path. Yeah,
unless they all had like kind of similar difficulties and
be kind of cool to choose which one you want
to go to.

Speaker 3 (14:39):
Brutal.

Speaker 2 (14:40):
I don't know how much more item level Liquid has
than most other guilds right now. I would be curious
to know, because if it's not a lot, then that's
a bit worrying because then Sticks definitely maybe needs to
get nerved. Well, I get sorry the other way around,
you know what I mean. I just I don't know

(15:01):
how I like. I've never really liked them nerving bosses.
I like when the bosses kind of just work exactly
how they are and that's like the released package for
the rest of the raid. But with them being this difficult,
I just don't think that they can do that. Like,
I would not be surprised to see a nerve to
that boss going into like future weeks I don't know when,
but probably after the race or something. Also, they're currently

(15:24):
on Sprocket, I don't know his name, I don't know
the name.

Speaker 3 (15:28):
Yes, Sprockettmonger.

Speaker 2 (15:31):
That fight looks difficult as well, so and what that's
the fifth boss of the raid and they still have
three more to go, and it's pretty it's pretty assumed
that Gallawick's obviously going to be really hard, Muggsy's going
to be really hard. He's really hard on Heroic too,
and one arm bandit seems difficult as well. So I mean,

(15:51):
I don't think it's going to get any easier, is
what I'm trying to say.

Speaker 1 (15:56):
Man, it's hard, Like sorry, go ahead was.

Speaker 3 (16:00):
Just as a I mean, like I will be fair
to say that these fights do get nerved pretty heavily
by gear, so like it does have that going for it.
I do think they did a great job at that
in terms of like raid design, because a lot of
these fights are really just hard because you don't have

(16:22):
the damage for it or you don't have the healing
required for it. Like I swear these fights with twenty
autum levels would be a completely different fight. But it's
just do they really have to be vis tight this
early on? Like it really sucks for guilds like mine.
Obviously we're a bit of an outlier, but we've already
killed Rick Reverb and we're expected to do a race

(16:44):
award first boss, Like I don't even know what we're
gonna do next week.

Speaker 2 (16:50):
Do you think that the curve that they've created for
this teer is like any better than last year? And
do you think it's like an improvement or.

Speaker 3 (16:59):
Something. I mean, it certainly better, it's just the curve
starts so high. Like so scars are talked about this, right,
they talked about It's not overn X or kay Vezava
was the issue. The issue was the bosses before it
were too easy. And so here's the reaction to it.

(17:19):
I mean I called it last week and I fully
expected this to happen, and it did end up happening,
but it just feels terrible for guilds like mine, and
I'm sure a lot of guilds fat end up reaching
this point we'll just be like, well, me, like, what
do we do? Like we've cleared Heroic, We've done the
first two or three bosses, and now we're hitting the

(17:40):
fourth boss and it's just literally a race war first boss.
I mean, the third boss was kind of cool to
do because it was actually a challenging boss for us
instead of just like a complete pushover. But it just
like really sucks. And how long are we expected to
be in this raid before we can actually clear it?

Speaker 1 (18:00):
IM gonna post a question that I'm interested about what
you both of you guys think, because I feel like
a trend that's been really heavy over the last three
like at least since I started playing, that I've noticed
is guilds just raids so much, Like every single guild
that was like, oh, we're a two day guild is
now like rating four days optional Saturday. Like okay, you

(18:24):
say this right, like you say, oh, this sucks for
my guild. For the record, I think I love Humble.
I think they're an awesome guild, So I'm not like
trying to take shots at them, but like your guild
is like, so you say, this sucks for our guild,
we have nothing to do, right, We're hard stuck. Your
guild literally did two full normal runs, full heroic splits
all the way up to the last boss, then killed

(18:47):
like a lot, like thirty people last boss, and did
three bosses of Mythic in one single week. Like maybe
just don't raid.

Speaker 3 (18:56):
So much, you know, Like I don't know, but I
see it is like yeah, no, I get what I'm saying.
But I feel like if we raid that much, we
should be able to clear of the raid sooner, right,
Like I don't know, I feel like that's kind of
the expectation, like if you if you put in the hours,
you should just be able to finish the raid sooner.
But it feels like Blizzard doesn't want guilds to be

(19:18):
killing it so soon. They want to like wait until
the gear catches up, or wait until the what you
call it the renown catches up, because because that was
one of the things I want to say about the
renown too, like it was gonna deviate a little bit.
But it feels like the whole Renowned track is very

(19:41):
justification for designing V's raids to be this difficult because
you know, like I was saying, how these fights will
be much easier with twenty item levels. Well, let's count
in the renowned track too, which begins like what a
month from now, I don't even know, but we need
dratos for that, I'm sure would yes, none of us
anything about the Yeah, yeah exactly. Then when where down comes,

(20:01):
But whenever it comes, that's gonna be a massive power
gain too. So like this rate is just gonna get
easier from that natural nerve of the raid, Like it's
just like having gear and having the damage buff But
it just feels really bad if you're like a Gill
that actually puts in a lot of hours and you're

(20:23):
not really getting a whole lot out of it.

Speaker 1 (20:26):
Yeah, Like, so what do you think about that of aade?
Like basically, the way I see it is it's sort
of a trade off. Like the dichotomy is like, well,
to me, I really enjoy the idea of like constantly
gearing up like over a month and a half. Right, Like,
to me, it feels bad when the third vault of
the like the season is already just like, well, I'm
taking socket. It's like, you know, I feel like Blizzard

(20:48):
does this time gating of gear where they like space
everything out to sort of like drip feed you the
dopamine because they know that if they don't timegate you,
everyone's just gonna mash the dopamine button and get all
the gear as soon as possible and then like be
done and burn themselves out. Like do you think there's
a right answer or is there like a trade off,
because that's sort of what I see is like because
I was looking at my item level right, and I

(21:09):
have like close to all the mythic ten stuff, like
I'll be close to max out and heroic gear. But
then I was looking, I'm like, well, myth track is
actually so long, like I'm still gonna get another twenty
item levels, like my character is nowhere near where it's
gonna be to like do the highest keys in the world.
So like, I don't think gearing path is like you know,
it's just very time gated, right, Like it's gonna take

(21:30):
a full month for everybody to reach their gear set.
Like I don't evenk people should be able to just
grind out and get gear, Like is it good that
they like put those walls in because I don't know,
like it's hard right because I'm a guy who loves
to grind, But I also really appreciate the like, you know,
oh it's the fifth week, but I'm still really looking
forward to my weekly vault and like clearing the mythic
grade and getting upgrades.

Speaker 2 (21:49):
Yeah, I think that, Uh well, if it's two separate topics, right,
the one of gear and like getting walled at a boss,
I think when it comes to gear, I actually kind
of like how they do the system now because I
do and I do agree with you that taking a
while to gear actually feels decent, not on alts necessarily,

(22:10):
but on your main like, you know, feeling having that
sense of progression, like oh I have something to do,
I have something to log in, I have a goal
I can work towards getting cress and just upgrading my
already existing gear, you know, even later in the season
feels good. But at the same time, you know, Dorky
is valid in how he feels where it's just like
he's at a wall and it's like a really hard

(22:31):
wall and it just kind of sucks. I don't think
there's a perfect solution. Like, honestly, I think it just
kind of sucks. It's like, on one hand, if you
make the content easier, then it's going to be completed faster.
And if you complete all the content faster, well then
you run out of stuff to do, you get bored,
you quit. And if they make it too hard, well
then it's like, well now I'm walled and I feel
like I'm fighting the game and it's feels like a

(22:53):
brick wall. It's hard to break. And then people can
plain and they're just like, you know, please nerve this,
and I think, I think everybody. I think there's just
a sweet spot to get and it has no perfect solution.
I mean, I don't have an answer. Just getting it

(23:14):
perfectly right is very difficult for sure.

Speaker 1 (23:17):
Yeah, it kind of reminds me of a I feel
like this is one of the big differences between classic
and retails. So I've been rating in Classic Hardcore or whatever,
and so I've basically been playing I think, like six
weeks now. So imagine I'm like a month and a
half into the tier quote unquote, and I have what's
essentially the equivalent of two rate pieces. So it's like,

(23:39):
imagine being six weeks into the tier and you have
two myth track pieces, right, Like, on one hand, it's like,
holy crap, do I look forward to trying to get
loot in the raid every week? But on the other hand,
it's like, man, does this feel bad to like go
in an entire two weeks straight with not a single upgrade,
So like I don't I feel like, Yeah, like you said,

(23:59):
there's not really a right answer. It's hard because like,
no matter what side of the fence, it's like it
kind of grass is always green ear thing, right of
like you know, when you're max geared really earlier, you're like, damn,
I don't really you know, I have way less drive
to like log in and do stuff. But at the
same time, like when you don't have loot, it's like, dang,
I don't want to. Like you were saying earlier, like
it feels so bad to play a DPS when you
don't have your tear stter, you don't have your gear,

(24:21):
because it's like I'm just doing less damage for no
reason other than I was just a little bit unlucky.

Speaker 2 (24:26):
Yeah, it's mainly because in the case of what you're
referring to, it's because it sucks to be behind other people.
So and you know, when you brought up your classic example,
you know, if everyone is getting very few upgrades, like
it's it's all about how often everybody's getting gear, right,
So if you're only getting like one piece a week,

(24:48):
but everyone else in your rates only getting one piece
a week, then you know it's all equal. But if
you're getting like zero pieces and then somebody's getting fed
you know, all fifteen slots and they're good time, then
you know that sucks.

Speaker 3 (25:03):
I do feel like it's a little bit different in
Classic though, because in Classic, having less gear isn't really
the game, right, Like you're always chasing after gear, and
whereas in retail it's like if you're if you don't
have the gear, then you just can't even play the game.
You're like behind, right. It's it's such a different dichotomy

(25:24):
just because of how how much harder retail is, like
you need the gear on retail, whereas Classic is more
of like, oh you know, this is like sick to get.

Speaker 2 (25:35):
A lot more competitive.

Speaker 1 (25:36):
And yeah, I feel like a little bit though, is
like your guys bias of like when you play retail,
you guys are crushers and you guys are doing the
hardest content, but if you were to play Classic, it
would only be like a journey for fun or whatever. Like,
I don't know one thing that's been interesting. I've been
watching so a lot of the people in my Classic
guild made a retail guild and they've been streaming, and

(25:59):
to put it into like context, while arguild did a
four hour raid night and we're doing whatever bosses and
clearing mythic, they spent the entire four hours, I believe
tonight killing Uh, what's the boss? What's the is it sticks, Punk, Junker,
the gas guy, the guy with the bullies?

Speaker 3 (26:19):
Is it sick?

Speaker 1 (26:21):
Yeah? So that was they did that on Heroic. They
spent their entire raid night killing just sticks, Bunk, Chunker
or whatever on Heroic, And like, I don't know, to
those guys, I don't think they see it that way
of like you know, oh, I need to get like
I need to be fully geared.

Speaker 3 (26:35):
Pekaboo definitely is all that way. I was watching Pekaboo
was just doing absolutely no damage and he's like I
can't even like he has like six level going, but.

Speaker 1 (26:47):
You gotta get on that. You're you're way more clouded
than me. So Peekaboo has been doing keys with some
of those guys, but he seems like it was actually
kind of crazy. I was watching his stream yesterday and
he did he was doing some keys with those guys,
and then like was sort of like fishing out the chat, like, hey, guys,
like you think I should go back and play hardcore
you do more keys. And there's actually a lot of
people in his chat that were enjoying watching him do keys.

(27:09):
I feel like you got to be the one to
slide in there.

Speaker 3 (27:11):
And I feel like I might have done a key
with Drogo or not with h as I say, Peekaboo
with Drogo once back in BFA, because I remember he
was playing with his girlfriend at a time who was
friends with Drogo and she likes keys, and I think
I might have been in that group. I don't remember.

Speaker 1 (27:30):
Yeah, you gotta get in there. You gotta get Peopo, Me, Dorky, Evade, Greg.

Speaker 3 (27:34):
Bro, people who doesn't like keys, you think because of
really you think so the girl.

Speaker 1 (27:44):
Are you about a Yeah?

Speaker 3 (27:47):
Oh ship, that's the only reason why he's playing. He
doesn't like keys. But yeah, going back to the raid.
Another thing I wanting to say about the Raid too.
I don't know if it's just me, but it feels
like such a visual cluster fuck. I don't Like I'm

(28:07):
not sure if it's because of the new visuals and
this is just how raids have been, or if there's
more random bullshit circles than ever. Yeah, Like I don't
even what I'm looking at, especially when I'm watching Race
the World first, uh sprackt Manger. When I'm watching, like
what is happening, There's like rockets flying at you, there's

(28:30):
miss there's like circles all over the floor, your circles
on players. There's drills, and there's like lines and beams
and it's like, but the thing is too in the
lower difficulties, in normal and heroic, there's still so much
shit happening, but none of it matters. It's kind of like,
you know, it's kind of like whenever I talk, you know,

(28:52):
like I just say a bunch of shit and none
of it really goes through. But like there's like a
couple of important right, Like it's.

Speaker 1 (28:58):
There and there's clutter and you kind of see it
on your screen. You like might listen when door Key talks,
but like you're not really caring about what he says,
you know, it just kind of like all words. Now,
that's funny because I was kind of thinking that too.
Of like I feel like a lot of times as
a healer, maybe it's like a high key thing where
it's like you get fixated on your party frames and
then you get hit by a swirl and you die.

(29:19):
Feel like every healer knows that experience a lot of
times in hardcore or hardcore heroic. I don't know if
it's just because I was over geared or whatever, but
it felt like I did that and then I deserve
to die, but I didn't die. Like even on Galley Wicks,
I think like I would get hit by some of
the swirlies on the ground, but they just like wouldn't
kill me. But at the same time, like there's so
many of them. I don't know. My hidden conspiracy is like,

(29:42):
you know how for the longest time, they didn't want
to update the visuals and like make crisp edges because they, like,
you know whatever, didn't like the way they looked or
you know, I feel like this tier, especially because they're
trying to like add so much more of that that
they there was literally so much stuff on the ground
that or like we have to improve visual clarity on

(30:02):
effects because it's such a mess. Because it's even such
a mess now, like they've literally improved the visuals on
so many things and it's still just a mess because
of how much more shit that they added.

Speaker 2 (30:14):
Yeah, I love to add as well that, like, my
my complaint isn't necessarily like that there's too many swirlies,
although that's always been something I don't like, but it's
it's kind of like the special effects of just like lightning,
like non swirlly related things like oh, there's like a
drill off on the side and it's just sparking sparks,

(30:34):
or the dinosaurs are clashing and obviously they have the
big red thing, but just like there's just like so
many extra things happening. Like I was doing muggsy and
it's just started raining on my screen and I'm just
like I was like all right, Like, you know, this
is to some extent, I understand that they're trying to

(30:56):
like make it visually like cool looking, but I think
they went a little bit overboard, and you know, it's
not the word Like, I think the improved visuals are great,
and I'm really glad they out of that to the game,
and I actually think it would be really bad. Like
I think the visual clarity of the raid would be
awful if that wasn't done. Yeah, but yeah, I mean

(31:21):
just go watch Sprack and Monger and just look at
the floor when it's when the lightning's happening. Obviously you
know that, like, oh, the north half of the room
is you know, you can't stand there, so just don't
don't stand there. But it just it just it's just
a lot, that's all. Yeah.

Speaker 1 (31:36):
It's kind of understand if you're like a nube, right,
like if you if you've watched a video and you know, like, okay,
you got a world marker and there's X, and then
like this is where you go near the boss, and
then it's like it sort of makes sense. But I
feel like if you're somebody that doesn't play with weak
areas and doesn't you know, go into the boss, even
on Heroic and try and like raw Dog, it it's like, man,

(31:57):
what the heck is going on? You know, like with
all the drills and the swirlies and the lightning and
the rockets, it just it is a little bit over
the top. I do want to say though, before we
get too negative about the visuals and like certain stuff
and like the difficulty of the raid. I do love
the aesthetic of the raid. Like, to me, this is
one of the raids that's vibe with me the most.
I feel like a lot of the heroic bosses I

(32:18):
find at least maybe just a healer thing, but are
very very fun. I love the aesthetic, Like I think
a lot of the bosses are really cool. Like I
think the last three are really cool. I like the
slot machine. I like the idea. I like Mugsy, you know,
like the oh the bodyguard, like the head of security
at the casino, like running around with guns and then
he's got Like. I love how there's all these like

(32:39):
enraged phases where it's reasonably simple mechanic wise, it just
like spews damage and swirlies. It's like, I don't know,
it's a more fun difficulty for me than something like Tendril,
where it's just like very mechanically dense but not actually
like that much stuff going on once you get the
dance of it.

Speaker 2 (32:59):
Dude, the zone is awesome, Like, I just I don't
think I can remember a time where Blizzard has put
out like such a like just a cool zone in theme.
Then this patch, like I really like the city. I
like how you can just like go inside of the
little houses and they have like multiple light levels and

(33:20):
stuff like that. I know those are small things, but
you know, all all of this, like everything in the Raid,
everything outside the Raid of this patch really feels like
they put a lot of like I don't know, they
just put like a ton of like work into it and.

Speaker 1 (33:35):
Like love, and I really like it feels like love.
I like using that work because it's like you can
tell that some guy who made this boss was like
really happy about it, you know, like not even mechanically,
just like you know, the like his voice lines and
the way that he moves and like spins around with
his guns. That like someone really loved this, like they
were like proud to show it off and put it
in the game, you know, watching the streams and the povs,

(33:58):
the people seeing it for the first time, And I
feel like that's there's a lot of like little pieces
in Blizzard that I feel like are getting healed over
the last couple expansions where it's like, you know, removing
the silly gearing stuff and like press and all that
I feel like are in a decent direction. Like I
feel like seeing raids like this also like reassures me
that there's more cool stuff to come, like Plunderstorm and stuff.

(34:19):
There's a lot of like gems in the rough. It's
just sort of like, you know, taking its time for
them to figure out exactly how they want to do things.

Speaker 3 (34:26):
Yeah, that's always been Blizzard's art team. Like those guys,
they have always excelled and yeah, like you were talking
about they with the Undermind, Like it's just crazy how
these houses just have so many little details going on,
and it's kind of hard to appreciate unless people are
like actively visiting these which is why I feel like

(34:49):
last week needed to exist. People were complaining of how
there's nothing to do last week, but if they just
released Raid or Mific plus away, then people wouldn't spend
their time like actually going through these zones and looking
at what Undermind has to offer. Also, speaking of Undermine

(35:09):
the drive of a car, So I was surprised by
how much negativity there was from like my guilties from
people on Reddit or forums. It seems to be like
actually a lot of people who didn't like drive, but
I you know, like a ad. We talked about visit.
We thought that everyone was gonna love Drive.

Speaker 2 (35:31):
Yeah, I mean it's like something that I think a
lot of people have wanted in while for a while,
seeing like those railways above Ajarre and stuff like that,
and in Kazan the Goblin starting zone, like little ways
to race in the game, and they finally actually added it.
And I didn't even realize it until I was actually
playing it that they had added cars to the game,

(35:54):
and I was like, wait, I've always wanted this, and
I think Drive is so fucking cool, Like it's maybe
my favorite thing they've added in an extremely long time.
I literally love it. I just wish there was more
to do with it.

Speaker 1 (36:07):
Where else can you drive? So you can? Can you
drive anywhere? But undermine? No, just undermine Yeah, see, like yeah,
that's sort of And again this is like, you know,
reminiscent a little bit of early Dragon writing, which is
also great, but to me, it seems like a little
bit limited. Like basically it's just such a small zone.
And even then it's like I feel like it's a

(36:29):
little bit cluttered, especially if you're not that good at
you know, like like drifting and like moving around but
you're kind of like wanting to go fast and like
steer and stuff. It's kind of a difficult zone to
like actually take clean turns and like you know, mess a.
I actually spend a little bit of time, right because
I've I've done the same thing. I thought it was
really fun, but like, I don't know, I feel like

(36:51):
if it was available in some more like open zones,
or if there was like a racetrack or something, I
feel like people would enjoy it more. But to me,
I guess it feels a little limited because like the
zone is so not small. But like compare how fast
you go, right, Like you can basically go from one
corner of the map to the other in like fifteen seconds, right,

(37:11):
So it's like I don't know, you don't really I
feel like I would enjoy drive if I had opportunities
to do it. Like there's someone linked in my stream
discord a week or that plays the Fast and Furious
theme song for Tokyo Drift whenever you get in the car,
And I thought it was funny as hell, right, So
I installed it and I was like I spent like

(37:31):
four minutes driving around it and it was really really fun.
But then I'm like, Okay, well I guess I'm done, right, Like,
you know, what else do I do? Like I just
listened to the Tokyo Drift theme song and I drove around,
and it's like, now there's the same small zone and
I've already done like five laps around it. Like I
think they I hope they expand upon it and like
give you more areas to do it. But that's my
biggest complaint is like that zone it wasn't really the

(37:54):
most fun place for me to do it. There's not
really like fun places to like, you know, just take
like really wide turn and like drive around and just
like you know, not crash into garbage cans and get
stuck in the wall and have to heart.

Speaker 2 (38:06):
You know, I actually felt the same way as you grow,
but as I got better at driving, I actually found
that the zone feels kind of perfectly sized. But obviously
I've spent time to like get good at it, and
so I think that what you're saying is a good idea.
And if you actually look up in Undermined, there's these
pipes that are all around and they look like raceways,

(38:29):
like you know, like elevated highway tracks, And I just
thought to myself, what an absolute missed opportunity to just
put a bunch of like cool like raceway tracks about
undermine and you can like teleport up there and then
like start driving and race people. Oh my god, that
would just be so cool.

Speaker 1 (38:46):
At first, when you literally said that, I thought you
were gonna be like, there's race tracks up there, I'm like, wait,
I missed that with.

Speaker 2 (38:51):
The I mean, in a way, you can. They kind
of are, but I I've actually gone up there and
they're a bit bumpy, so they're not very they're not
very good to drive.

Speaker 1 (38:58):
Well that that was a very polite way of saying
it was a skill issue on my part.

Speaker 2 (39:02):
Well, I genuinely felt the same way when I was driving,
and then you know, I started playing a bit more
in practicing with the controls, and it felt a lot better.
So you know, that's not to say that it's a
skill issue, but just more so, you know, if you
give it more of a try, like, you'll probably have
a better time. But obviously at the end of the day,
there's nothing to really do with it. So I mean,
I'll tell you this whenever I'm afk in Doornagle instead

(39:23):
of if can indornable. I'll just go to Undermine and
start driving around. It's actually so much fun.

Speaker 3 (39:29):
Yeah, I do think I think it's largely a need
to get used to the controls first before you can
really judge, because I think a lot of players are
used to the what would be the word like ride
ability of just normal bounce. I mean, like normal mount
you just like bounce up and you just press your
WASD and there's no friction, right, But with the drive

(39:50):
you actually have to somewhat control it, and I think
that's where a lot of people are getting lost and
you're just like having to get used to it before.

Speaker 2 (40:00):
It's definitely not really the most perfectly designed system for sure,
Like that is the under centure. I mean, so this.

Speaker 3 (40:07):
Reminds me of a video like I don't know if
you guys have played video. I know Round played it
for a little bit, but mounting in that game like
you actually have to like control your whores and it
steers in a certain way. I remember people were like
kind of saying how it was like clunky and stuff
at first, but a lot of people like really like
how riding works in video, And in fact, I wonder

(40:27):
if they took inspiration from video because video has like
somewhat similar controls to this game.

Speaker 1 (40:36):
It's nice step depth, you know, like if it is
that the case where like you can't actually get a
lot better at it and improve, then it's like, you know,
just another facet of the game where you can spend
time on and get better.

Speaker 2 (40:47):
I think something that also makes it fun is just
being on the ground. Like I actually like exploring the
game on the ground, and you know what better way
to do it than to do it in a car
that goes fast? You know, if yeah, you can fly
in under my you kind of just would fly up
and see it's just this big flat thing and it
probably wouldn't be as fun to travel around the city

(41:07):
and stuff like that.

Speaker 3 (41:08):
But yeah, like they they've clearly designed Undermine with driving
mind for like a very good reason. Like we've talked
about this a lot before THEE about how when they
add flying to the game, it just like changes the
experience entirely. Like I do like what they did with
dragon writing in Dragonfly and Orphan, I would say more

(41:31):
so Morphine because just like how the zones are designed,
but it definitely takes away a lot from the game
when you give players a flying immediately. Like I remember
back in BFA and Legion. You know, back in my days,
Legion was like twenty years ago, by the way, if
you guys didn't know, it's actually crazy, it's been so
long twenty yeah, yeah, like checking that. Maybe it was

(41:55):
like fifteen years I don't remember, but it's like it's
a really long time ago. Yeah. So back in my days,
I remember like clearly exploring through all the zones, and
I just like remember very vividly so na guitar like
all these zones. But with a lot of the zones

(42:15):
in Dragonfly and war Fin, they kind of just they're
not memorable because you kind of just like fly by.
You get to where you need to go and you
don't really take in the whole atmosphere and just like
you know, whoever you're re questing or doing a world
quest or whatever it is, it's just not the same vibe.

(42:36):
I don't know if you guys feel the same.

Speaker 1 (42:37):
Yeah, I mean I sort of agree, like as my
classic and Andy is coming out, but I think it
has a lot to do with like what you're doing
in the game, Like, for example, not having flying and
Wow just would be ridiculous, right, Like you imagine we're like,
all right, let's log on and do a key sess
and then all of us hop on our ponies and
trot to you know, three zones away.

Speaker 3 (42:58):
But nowadays you just tell.

Speaker 1 (43:00):
And that's to get yeah, or you teleport, right, Like
that's even worse, right, teleporting is even worse than flying.
But at the same time, like you don't really do
like when have you ever done anything in the open world?

Speaker 2 (43:10):
And wow?

Speaker 1 (43:11):
Anyway, right, like maybe in Legion when you were like
you know, more casual or whatever like previous expansions, but
you know, like when have you ever like spent time
irbing to make money or like hunted achievements or like,
you know, done anything other than like trying to gear
your guy for Mythic plus. Like I feel like it
depends a lot on what you're doing in the zones.

(43:31):
Like I think a lot of people who did the
achievements and stuff for some of the previous expansions will
find the zones more memorable. Like I've heard lots of
people talk about, you know, even even an expansion like
Shadowlands talking about like Riven Dreath and uh where wherever
Missivetern desythe was that remember that one Arnweeld, you know,

(43:51):
just like you know, but those are people that were
like killing rares and exploring or whatever. But no, I mean,
I don'tely get what you're saying that like lot the transportations, well,
I mean, the leveling process just goes so fast and
then you never spend time in the open world anyway,
so it's like who cares. I think that's part of
the reason why it's not memorable or it seems that way.

Speaker 2 (44:12):
Well, the thing is like, if you look back at Legion,
the world was actually extremely alive. You know, there was
a reason to go out and do world quests for everybody,
like for just year. If you're like an alt or
artifact power, if you're somebody who just needed artific power,
or you're just going for a titan forge or you're
completing a weekly quest. I think that the game can

(44:34):
do a like change what it's doing or try to
do a better job at like getting people more involved
in the world. But I think, you know, there's been
this big shift as you know, Dragonflight and the War
Within have come out that I've noticed that people don't
people just want to do what they want to do
and they don't want to do anything else. So like,
you know, for example, if I told you grow that

(44:56):
you need to start doing world quests in order to
be competitive, and keys like you very upset, right and rightfully,
so like you don't want to do something you don't
want to do. But I think that the world, I
don't know, the world can be a lot more interesting
if the developers want it to be that way. It's
just I think a lot of the feedback has been

(45:17):
for a long time, it's always been, you know, this
is like I just want to get to my objective faster, right,
Like I just want to get there instantly. And I
guess I've lost where I was going with this. But
the point being is that people don't want to engage
much with the world these days because there isn't very
much to do. I think if there was more to do,

(45:38):
it would be pretty interesting. Like you were, you were saying, oh,
do you really want to get on a mountain, like
just run to a dungeon? That seems kind of boring,
But I don't know, Like I've played the game. It's
so many different points, and I kind of do like
the on ground experience of the game. I don't really
like dragon writing. Like I like dragon writing. I think
it's super fun and cool, but I think being I

(46:01):
feel like it's more immersive to actually just be on
the ground and like interacting with the world and feeling small.
I know a lot of people don't feel that way.
A lot of people just might want to get to
their destination really quickly. But yeah, that's kind of a
hot take.

Speaker 3 (46:16):
But I do think Wharfin did manage to somewhat capture
that feeling smaller, like while still being on a flying
mount because they have design, Like, like I was saying,
they did design those zones around dragon riding much better
than the ones in Dragonfly. What do what do you
even call that zone?

Speaker 2 (46:39):
Colorful?

Speaker 1 (46:41):
No?

Speaker 3 (46:41):
No, no, I was gonna say, well, what are even
the zones called in Dragonfly? I don't remember what they
were called, Like as a whole Dragon Isles, the dragon Ales, dragons,
dragon dragon Isles were just like it was just not
as cool as uh as what do we call this zone?

(47:02):
Kas al Gar?

Speaker 1 (47:03):
You don't even know.

Speaker 3 (47:04):
That's how little.

Speaker 1 (47:11):
You're losing credibility to all the people. Is like, try
and make a point about the world. I know.

Speaker 3 (47:19):
I'm not good with names, okay, but.

Speaker 1 (47:22):
You remember the you remember the zones though, just not
the names.

Speaker 3 (47:25):
Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, Like like when when you're entering
hall Fall for the first time, coming in from Ringing Deeps,
like it feels grand, it feels like vast, and you
feel kind of small even when you're flying around on
your mouths. And I think they managed to capture that
feeling really well. But I also still agree, I do.

(47:47):
I also do enjoy the grounded experience. But I mean, yeah,
like Blizzard has tried doing this in the past, like
themal for example, if they try to create a zone
that was just like you're supposed to be scared and
you're not supposed to be able to mountain here. And
they've also try to incentivize players to do things. I mean,

(48:07):
that's like the whole reason for a Valor Stone, right,
Like we were always asking why does the Valor Stone exist?
It's so bad Blizzard can incentivize players to go and
do other content outside of just your usual Radar m
plus and like obviously if the players don't want.

Speaker 1 (48:23):
It, but yeah, and then you give people like Dorky
saying that, oh my character is unplayable unless it's full
mythic byss and it's a complete waste of my time
to farm valor stones or do anything. And I can't
even play the game unless I'm in a plus fifteen key.

Speaker 3 (48:38):
To be fair, I only feel that way about alts,
like I feel like my main character like I'm down
to do all this once, Like I'm down to do
whatever it is right. It could be ap grinds, it
could be like getting essences or corruption or having to
like farm world cuests or whatever. I actually like don't
mind any of this stuff at all. It's just having

(48:59):
to do it for second or third time on an ALT.
That part feels terrible, especially with how fottom Rerolievious game
feels nowadays, like oh, and don't even get me started
with vaults catch up, Like any time you're having to
start a character like two months in but you're like
two months of vaults behind, it feels terrible. Like for me,

(49:23):
it's always just about falts rather than doing it for
the first time.

Speaker 1 (49:30):
Well, so we talked about the the heroic difficulty. Another
big topic I want to go over a little bit
too is the what I think they did much better
on is the mythic plus difficulty curve. The season one,
I felt like I had a huge drop off of
people who got like hard stuck at different levels, right,
whether it was like the lack of rewards from like

(49:51):
Tuesday six's then like the big jumps at like sevens, tens, twelves.
I mean I would say they basically, you know, while
heroic difficulties a little weird, I'd say they like pretty
much hit it out of the park in terms of
like cleaning up the smoothness of keys, Like I feel
like each key level to me feels reasonable in terms
of like, you know, twelves are like you know, big

(50:12):
io and and a little bit harder, but you get
a little bit more low and then like you know,
tens are definitely go a step up from nine's, but
then like you get the vault reward and like even
if you're you know, you can still get stuff from
doing like sevens and eights. I don't know, how have
you guys felt about your first week of doing keys
and like the difficulty overall. I know it's been like
a little bit all over the place because they like
nerved you know, basically every single dungeon by ten percent.

Speaker 2 (50:35):
Yeah, that kind of changed a lot of things, like
my oh perception of like how difficult things were. Like
I logged in the next day and it's just, you know,
elevens and twelves were hard and then it's like, okay,
now they're just super easy. It was just, it was
it was very surprising that they did that in the
middle of the in the middle of the week. I

(50:55):
would have preferred if that started at the start of
the week instead of it just happening midway through. But yeah,
I don't really know how I feel about the dungeons
being nerved in the way that they nerved it. I'm
not saying that it was either good or bad. I
just don't know how I feel about it.

Speaker 3 (51:10):
Yeah, I saw where a blizzard was coming from, like
if they kind of wanted a more drawn out progression
from M zero all the way to tens. But the
problem is there's no proper path. I saw people were
getting absolutely farmed, Like apparently people were struggling to clear
M zero. People were struggling to clear plus two's and

(51:32):
like that has never happened in the history of Wow
ever since M plus came out. Because a lot of
people who have played M plus before they know, like, oh,
plus twos are supposed to be kind of easy, right,
and they're expected to just go into plus twos and
kind of smash them, and like even M zero is
supposed to be like super easy, Like people should be

(51:52):
able to go up to A plus five relatively easily.
So for someone who's coming back to the game, it's
probably been a massive shot how hard a plus two is.
And after the nerves, I would say it's definitely been
a net positive. Like people have been super positive about

(52:15):
this season. I mean, like, I think this season is
probably the best season they've had since like maybe dragon
Fly season three, And I'm glad that. Well, okay, but
I mean, like, all right, look for me, but I
don't like the two expansions. There's only been two good seasons.

(52:35):
It's been season three of Dragonfly and this season. Like
I think the rest of the seasons have kind of sucked.
Last season I said was completely terrible, Like I knew
it was going to be terrible. I remember saying it
during Beta and it turned out to be terrible. So
I'm glad this season that I said was gonna be
great for like the past few weeks of pottyc turned
out to be actually good. I will say, though, I

(52:58):
wish they nerved damage and instead of the health.

Speaker 1 (53:02):
Yeah, yeah, I see, it's so many times.

Speaker 3 (53:06):
Damage in these keys. Well you feel as aala right.

Speaker 1 (53:10):
Yeah, Well it's it's not even so much that it
just feels like it's a little out of whack. Right,
Like basically, there's you, let's say you're doing a key, right,
there's two points of failure. It's either you did the
key okay, but you just didn't complete it in time
and you needed to either do more damage or maybe
pull bigger or you like you know, wiped one or

(53:32):
multiple times. And like those are sort of the you know,
the two different paths keys can take. And it feels
like they really just don't want you to feel like
you need to optimize for damage and they just want
you to be like doing the mechanics and doing the
bosses exactly as intended, and like if you do everything
and go on a straight line, you just time the key.

(53:55):
And I feel like they've had so many opportunities to
nerf only the damage and leave the HP. So it
just feels like to me, the balance is off where
mobs just do too much damage and they die too quickly.
Like I remember when I first started doing Myllic plus
and we were doing higher keys, I would watch some

(54:15):
of the best groups. We'd watch the VODs and I
would like record how long each of the polls took
to see like where we're losing time or where we
could be doing better. And I remember so often there
would be like fifty second pulls, one minute pull, one minute,
ten pull. And it's like that was like very very
common in BFA to like fight a pull for a
minute and twenty seconds, even if you have cool lowns.

(54:37):
And nowadays it feels like there are polls that literally
die in like twenty five seconds in a high key,
like you have cool lownes and you just like blow
up the pull in thirty seconds. And it's like that
literally would never happen unless it was like swords and
it's all basire or something, and it's I don't know,
I feel like they missed so many opportunities to just
blanket nerf all of the damage and just leave the

(54:57):
HP and sort of like fix that imbalance. But I
don't know. I guess they just don't see it as
an imbalanced I don't know what you guys think.

Speaker 2 (55:05):
I think that if damage was nerved and not health,
I think more people would have fun because Okay, I
could be wrong, Oh.

Speaker 3 (55:17):
What I say? Wait, he was right.

Speaker 1 (55:20):
He said if damage was nerved and then each was
kept the same.

Speaker 2 (55:28):
The reason being is because you know, you don't want
to have to fight the dungeon from killing you. It's
more fun to fight the dungeon in terms of like
damage optimization and pull optimization, right, which those things don't
affect people at lower difficulties. And and you want to
actually get as walled by dungeons when it's only about

(55:48):
damage and not as much about mechanics or less of mechanics,
but just unavoidable high damage abilities. It's more fun to
attack a pack that doesn't die in five seconds. You know,
CLI is like affliction warlock can have a little bit
more fun when the pack isn't instantly dead. I just
don't really I wonder if there's some unseen downside to this,

(56:15):
but it almost just seems like a great upside. Right.
The dungeons are no longer about Okay, what's the best
rate buff comp to take less damage? Or how do
I minmax my damage here? Or oh my god, we
have to get every single interrupt on this pack, because
one spill drink will just one shot my teammate here
and make it more about like, hey, should we double
up on this poll and make it harder that way,

(56:37):
because now we have twice as many mobs and so
we're going to take extra damage because we need more
time in the key and we need to be able
to pull bigger so that we can time the key.
Because I don't really think that the pack, like if
the pack dies in let's say twenty five seconds right now,
I don't think the pac taking forty to forty five
seconds feels bad. You know. I don't think the pack
even taking a minute feels bad as long as you're

(57:00):
you know, being engaged in the pack or with whatever
mechanics it has. And frankly, just playing your class even
if the mobs did nothing is pretty fun in M plus.
And that's what I like about M plus so much
is that it's like an environment where you can do
all types of damage. You can do single target a
week leave, you have to actually use your entire kit
you need like fear cec stun. So, yeah, I just

(57:23):
think that more health less damage would be better for
all key levels in the game, and I'm each time
that they nerve only the health, I kind of question
it because, yeah, sure, it's like a nerf to the dungeon,
but in a way, it's actually a buff to the
damage because now everybody's going to be doing a key
level higher that's going to be doing relatively more damage

(57:44):
to you than you were before. And I know you
feel kind of the same, dorky. How do you feel
about that?

Speaker 3 (57:50):
Yeah, we talk about that a lot on the podcast. Actually,
it especially sucks for ramspecks. I mean it changes the
dynamics of your classes a lot. I mean, I guess
it's technically a nerve to classes that are burst year. Like, yeah,
if you're playing something like I don't know what's even
bursty nowadays, probably like a Warrior or something where if

(58:12):
a pole is lasting for fifty seconds, then they're just
about to get their second set of cool downs and
we're not gonna do as much damage as like say
a Boomkin vat has dots ramping, but it feels really
bad for the ramping specs, whereas it feels like still
fine for a class that can burst really hard. But
that aside, Yeah, like I completely agree I wish the

(58:35):
failure point was the team not optimizing enough and having
to figure out how to pull bigger or how to
optimize your damage and you know, do your cool downs better,
or like how of your positioning of a mob so
so if that it can maximize cleve. There just isn't
as much of that dynamic anymore, as kind of just
like make sure you get through the dungeon, make sure

(58:56):
nobody's dying, and you will probably end up timing the key. Also,
it just feels really bad for tanks and healers when
the damage is so high. Now, like I get it,
there are a lot of healers alvert who enjoy having
high damage so that it can be like challenged at
all times, but it feels unnecessary. It's gone to a

(59:22):
point where every single pack is doing damage and every
single boss is doing insane damage. I'm looking at like
Cinderbrew or Priory. Those two dungeons are insane when it
comes to group damage taken. In fact, I need to
call out Jack here because I found out today that
he made a tweet saying, Okay, raid designers, I love y'all,

(59:43):
but we cannot be having this many three heel fights
in Race World first buff the damage. It's freaking people
like Jack who just wants more damage because he loves
having to just like pump out healing. But what he
doesn't understand is that vera are so many other he
deelers that played World of Warcraft that just like can't
handle this much amount of healing, Like we gotta calm down,

(01:00:06):
we gotta chill for a second.

Speaker 1 (01:00:09):
Yeah, I've learned. That is number one. It's like, if
something is fun for you as a healer, okay, but
it's also maybe less fun for four other people in
your group, so you may have to succeed there. The
other thing is like challenges are fun when you can
overcome them, but you know at that you know you

(01:00:29):
look at a guy like JB or Jack, for example,
he's healing some of the highest keys in the world,
and it's like, chances are if he's like, for for instance,
I was talking to a guy who was playing Dragonfly
was season two maybe or season three whatever, was Halls
of Infusion, the third Boss, and there's basically a guy

(01:00:50):
who DM me just like having a mental breakdown as
his group like wipe to that boss for an hour
and he couldn't heal it, and it's like, you know,
it's fun for you to get the challenge when you
can beat it, but when you're like the sole pain
point and the reason that your team is wiping over
and over and there's nothing else you can do to
stop it, it's like, you know, at some point you

(01:01:11):
have to realize that like really really really heavy, difficult
things on one player just aren't always the best way
to go. And yeah, I don't know. My sort of
theory with the whole like damage versus healing thing is
I think Blizzard worries about tanks and like kneeding routes

(01:01:31):
and like needing to do things because like the way
that I see it right is like let's say timers
are really tight, but it's not necessarily scary. A lot
of that pressure kind of goes on the tank to
be like not pulling dumb ass packs and like knowing
all the mobs and knowing what to pull and knowing
what he can pull together. And then a lot of
the blame. Now there's no blame on the healer or

(01:01:54):
the DPS for dying. It's just oh, this tank is shit,
and like he didn't pull big enough, or he had
a bad ride, and I feel like they sort of
want this like experience in dungeons where someone can just
load in as a tank and sort of like go
in a straight line and just have one hundred percent
count and like not really be griefing too hard. I
don't know if that's necessarily true or better, but that's

(01:02:16):
always been kind of my conspiracy theory because like when
I talk about that, I remember I used to like
agree more with Dorky. I still agree a little bit
that I think dungeons with like lots of different routes
and like things to do are really really cool. But
at the same time, like I feel like it can
be a bad experience for somebody who's newer and like
doing a seven or an eight and they're like, you know, hey,

(01:02:37):
I've only done this dungeon two or three times before,
and their team is like, why you pulling that back?

Speaker 2 (01:02:43):
You idiot?

Speaker 1 (01:02:43):
You get you don't even go this way, You go
right on this dungeon like this idiot tank, and you know,
people just leave and it's like, you know, if there's
if there's that much pressure on the overall damage and
like the routing and stuff. I feel like a lot
of toxicity leadings towards the like tank as opposed to
being like, oh, this fire made is dog water and
he's doing no damage.

Speaker 2 (01:03:05):
I mean, yeah, isn't isn't Freehold? Isn't Freehold like the
most beloved BFA dungeon from most people who played back then,
And that's like one of the most creative dungeons, you know,
in terms of what you can pull, right, I don't
really feel like a lot of like I kind of
disagree with what you're saying, because I think that open

(01:03:25):
dungeons like Freehold, where you have the creativity of pulling
whichever pack you want, and there's only a certain number
of mobs that exist in total, so like maybe like
five or six unique mobs, but they're all like each
pack has like a different combination of them. So this
this one might have two harpooners, this one might only

(01:03:45):
have zero stuff like that. That's kind of what Freehold
was a lot in like the second boss area, and
that was like the best part because you could just
pull it however you wanted. People who did weekly key routes,
they just adapted to whatever we glee ky route was,
and I'm and everybody just did that exact route and
it was completely fine. But the people who wanted to

(01:04:07):
be more creative, and usually it's the high key people
who like to be more creative, they would you know,
be like, oh, this pack is really efficient, or oh,
harpooners are really difficult on higher key, so let's not
pull those. And I just I just think that more
creativity is just more fun for the game. And I
think designing dungeons around the possibility that some people might

(01:04:29):
be afraid of being flamed for their routing or something
like that, I think that's just tough to like do, right, Like,
is that actually why they're doing it. I don't know.
Maybe it is, but maybe it's not. But I will
say that a lot of these dungeons, feeling like straight
lines with very little options of what you can pull
on the side, is not very fun. You know, take

(01:04:51):
a dungeon like bortex S Pinnacle. It was a dungeon
that you could only skip one mob or one pack
the entire dungeon. Yet if you look at the entire
layout of the dungeon, it almost screams that it should
have a pack here on the left or pack here
on the right that you wouldn't body pull or get
near at all. You wouldn't have to skip it. It
would just be there. You would never accidentally run into it.

(01:05:15):
Yet it was just a missed opportunity to just put
more options for people just for the sake of it.
So I would be curious, like they're actual reasoning for
making these more linear dungeons, because it's very obvious that
they're doing it, because I mean, almost all of them
feel very linear these days.

Speaker 3 (01:05:34):
But yeah, also mandatory count like being forced to pull
a certain mini boss before you can spawn the boss
or open the door. Yeah, yeah, I mean this season that. Yeah,
like this season actually went a lot more in the
opposite direction. Like I will say, this season does feel
like there are a lot more side packs, a lot

(01:05:57):
more openness, and a lot more different types of counts
you can acquire in the dungeon, and I do feel
like that's part of what makes this season feel so
much more enjoyable. I feel like a pugging experience too,
Like you are kind of right row where there are

(01:06:17):
tanks and groups that are struggling because like the tank
is kind of being an idiot like Priory, for example,
if these tanks are out here pulling multiple caster packs
at once or pulling two three Poudin packs. The group
is not gonna be able to handle it. But to me,
it feels kind of like a Bogeyman problem, Like I

(01:06:39):
don't know how much that is actually happening. I do
feel like a large part of it is just players
are just making errors here and vera, and they're just
like looking for something to blame, which is just gonna
happen no matter why. All right, right, Like when shit
goes bad, these people are just gonna flame no matter what,

(01:07:00):
Like it doesn't really matter if it's if it was
a tank that fucked up, Like these guys are just
those types of players. If that will just shit talk
to someone, they'll just find it was just just Ammunition's
gonna find it somewhere.

Speaker 2 (01:07:13):
Yeah, even though cinderbrew is like a straight line, you know,
the tank might get flamed for going left first instead
of right first or something, even though it doesn't matter.
But yeah, who knows.

Speaker 1 (01:07:26):
Yeah, No, I definitely agree. I'm not like full on
board with that, but and I do think that that's
definitely the case for like, you know, you might deplete
several keys for random reasons and not remember, but you
played with the you know, the mouth drooling tank that
like does the most random shit and like completely single
handedly wipes the group and you'll just remember that for
the entire week.

Speaker 2 (01:07:47):
Yeah. I think specifically with the Freehold example as well,
is that, like you made the comment of like, oh,
my tank just pulled this like awful pack, I think
what was actually specifically really good because it's like things
aren't just good because it was the way that I'm describing.
It's like Freehold wasn't just good because it had all
these creative mobs. It's the whole package that makes it good.
And so like you know, you can look deeper into

(01:08:07):
it and realize that like, oh, like all of these
mobs individually only had like one mechanic, and it was
like a fair mechanic. Whereas like if you remember season three,
a tall as are or sorry not season three, just
a tall Asar. Back in BFA, those poison guys, the
ones in front of will call those guys were insane.
Like those guys were crazy. And the fact that they

(01:08:31):
can put a pack in a dungeon that is so
much more deadly than another pack, I think creates those
kinds of types of problems that you were identifying, and
so making the wrong quote unquote wrong decision shouldn't be
as punishing as making like the right decision, which I
think that they have done pretty well, even though given
that most of these dungeons are fairly linear. But I mean,

(01:08:53):
like you said, dorky, like there is some creativity like
in Motherload, in Floodgate, there's obviously your creativity even priory.
This season definitely has a little bit more of that,
which is kind of cool. Like I I almost stopped
opening mdt UH roughly around shadow Lands and Dragonfly, which

(01:09:15):
is just weird, like because it's like, it's weird that
I wouldn't need to know what we're doing because I
already know what we're doing because it's, yeah, there's nothing
else to know, you know.

Speaker 1 (01:09:26):
I vibe with that one hundred percent. Is like I
don't know, Dorgy makes fun of me, is like the
healer that doesn't pay attention. But it's like, you know
a lot of times, ninety nine percent of the packs,
it's like, yeah, you know, you're just gonna do this
and this. You guys talked about no could. It's like
no could had what Like I remember counting you as
like sixteen mandatory packs that you had to kill, and

(01:09:46):
it's like, what in the like, you may as well
just tell us exactly what.

Speaker 2 (01:09:49):
We have to get.

Speaker 3 (01:09:52):
Yeah, last season felt really bad for bad reason. Specifically,
it felt like it was just such a on rails
way of how you're supposed to play with dungeon like
lizards like here, like here's what you gotta do, you know,
and every pack is played in a certain way. It
just became it became so formulaic that the season just

(01:10:13):
kind of died in like, you know, the first two
or three months, because there's just like not a whole
lot you can really do in these dungeons.

Speaker 1 (01:10:23):
I did have fun.

Speaker 3 (01:10:24):
I do want to say that I was for a time.

Speaker 1 (01:10:27):
But yeah, I didn't want to say I did. It
was definitely season one. It maybe you could just say
alone that the fact that it lacked replayability meant that
it was less fun. But I anticipated that it wasn't
the best season, and also that there was less replayability
because of the adverxes. And I don't know, I had

(01:10:47):
a great experience in season one. By you know, exiting early,
I guess I think that's sort of maybe how they're
meaning for it. To be played. It's like, as much
as Mythic Plus people love just you know, aiming dungeons
all day, every day, it's you know, it's hard to
create that experience that's good for us, that's the same
as that's good for everybody else. Like one thing I

(01:11:09):
wanted to say to Evade about he's comparing Freehold is
I think one thing that a lot of people forget
is like, well, the weekly key level that you needed
to do to get max rewards and BFA and a
lot of shadowlands was just so piss easy and like
dorky mentions like, oh, Freehold, you can pull it however
you want it. You can do one pack at a time.

(01:11:30):
It's like, well, if you were pulling Freehold one pack
at a time, like that's the easiest freaking dungeon you've
ever done. Like no one pack ever does anything in
that dungeon. You know. It's like they specifically made it
a point to make the rewards a Mythic Plus a
lot better, being able to get myth items that you
can upgrade all the way up to max level. And

(01:11:51):
part of that is also making the dungeons harder and
like making the skill requirement to get those harder, and
so I just don't think old Freehold would live up
to their standards of like, you know, it would be
the you know, the quote unquote shadow Moon Burial Grounds,
where it's like this is by far the easiest thing
and you're just doing it as a loop and yachta
rather than like, you know, this is an equally challenging

(01:12:13):
experience as all the other dungeons.

Speaker 2 (01:12:16):
Yeah, I mean they're trying to make ever since shadow Lands,
they're trying to make every individual poll feel difficult just
by itself. I remember Playfall. It's like a pretty good
example of a dungeon that had a lot of individual
polls that were just difficult by themselves, whereas like in Freehold,
you made the pole difficult yourself by combining other things

(01:12:37):
and kind of forging your own difficulty. And because the
timer mattered more, and you know, it's more of a
pain point you made those decisions.

Speaker 1 (01:12:47):
You know, well, there was a pain point on a
plus twenty seven, but when you only needed fifteen or
a ten or whatever for a weekly, it wasn't a
pain point that you literally could just do one pack
at a time on like a ten. And that's why
I think a lot of people you know, quote unquote
fondly remember that dungeon is because they did it as
a weekly key and they oh cool pirates, and they

(01:13:08):
did one pack at a time and it was easy
and they got their loot, you know, rather than like, oh,
you know, I don't think a lot of people have
the same experience as us. Was that where they're like, oh,
let's you know what happens when we go in the
back of the second boss area? What was that one
route the six Flags drive where we would go up
top and like pull, Like that's just we just don't
have the same experience as I think most people didn't

(01:13:30):
for you old So it's hard to you know, to
say that like, oh yeah, we all love it for
the same reason.

Speaker 2 (01:13:36):
But if they're having fun and we're having fun, then
that's true.

Speaker 1 (01:13:42):
Yeah, fair enough, fair enough.

Speaker 3 (01:13:44):
That is better than just you know, maybe one a
group of players.

Speaker 2 (01:13:47):
Perhaps perhaps like the key, the weekly key level would
be lower, would be better.

Speaker 1 (01:13:53):
Yeah, maybe I will make the loot easy to get.
Maybe that might be the answer.

Speaker 3 (01:13:57):
Over Like I want to say, the past year, I
have like come to understand more of that. You don't
need this much difficulty in gaming. So the reason I
say that is because Monster Hunter Wilds came out like
last week or maybe it was two weeks ago, home
how long it's been, and that game has been a

(01:14:19):
smashing success. It is Capcom's most successful launched sale game
ever of all time. And a lot of the complaints
early on about the game was the game was going
to be far too easy, because that's what all the
reviews said, right, like all the reviewers, even the ones
who weren't mega gamers, you know, just like game journalists

(01:14:41):
who were talking about the game, they said like, oh,
like the game is kind of easy, and that had
a lot of players concerned, but it turned out to
be completely okay. Like if the game literally has like
a million concurrent players, it's sold over ten million copies
or like some ridiculous amounts, And I just like, don't
think I think there always needs to be difficulty tied

(01:15:04):
to rewarding gameplay, Like just let players come up with
the difficulty themselves, especially in an infinitely scaling content when
you're playing on Plus, Like, if you ever find it
to be too easy, you know, I'll just do a
higher key. You just go crazy and just start pulling
bigger and you know you'll you'll find your form of
fun there.

Speaker 2 (01:15:26):
Yeah. I think it's a careful balancing act because while
I never played Final Fantasy sixteen, I did hear complaints
from people that it was actually too easy of a game.
So I mean, I don't know if that's true or not,
but if it was, then maybe it was just slightly
too easy, right, whereas like Monster Hunter Wilds is that
it is. Yeah, it might be just perfectly made, right,

(01:15:49):
Like it might be easy for like a hardcore gamer,
but it might just be that perfect just difficulty for everybody,
And in that case, they nailed it right. Yeah, definitely
getting everything perfect, I wouldn't say things are much black
and white, as it is just like really hard to
get things really really really perfect. So yeah, I mean
if if they managed to pull that off, then that's

(01:16:11):
obviously why it's been so successful. I mean for many
other reasons as well. But you know, when applying that
to wow, you know, it is really hard to get
everything really really uh, or to make everything perfect for everybody,
you know what I mean, Like it's like such an
incredibly difficult task.

Speaker 3 (01:16:29):
Yeah, we're having the hardest thing. Yeah, But I mean
at the same time, always quite a difficulty.

Speaker 1 (01:16:37):
Right, but like picture I was doing keys, right, like
this happens, so I play with you for like years now,
and this basically happens to us every single season where
new patch comes out. Oh, we're farming tens or sixes
or whatever to get loose, and then how long does
it take you to get bored? Like one day? And
then you know, sure enough, we're just doing elevens and
twelves and thirteen's for no freaking reason, right, other than just.

Speaker 3 (01:16:59):
Like I don't know, I feel I'm having fun still,
like yeah it's fun.

Speaker 1 (01:17:02):
Well no exactly, yeah, well, I'm just saying like, you know,
I think you know you might be onto something and
that you know, for me, I would play Devil's advocate
and say, like, you know, people are gonna do the
bare minimum to get the rewards and then not do
anything else and maybe miss out on opportunities. But you know,
maybe they won't, right, Like maybe you know that is
sort of proof that if you just kind of have

(01:17:23):
those options available and it's like okay, people get a
bunch of loot and they want to try something, like
maybe they do just try an eleven or twelve or whatever.
Even though that you know, A ten is like super easy,
maybe you don't need to like gate those really good
rewards behind very very difficult content in order to get
people in, you know, like maybe leader Like, at least
to me, when I first started playing Wow, I thought

(01:17:46):
raider Io and the leader boards was like so cool,
Like I really love like even the little minutia of like, oh,
I'm the number one enhancement shaman on crush Ridge, you know,
like completely meaningless title, but at the same time, like
you know, you have something to aim for and then
like and that's completely independent of the game, right, Like

(01:18:06):
that's a challenge and a reward and a you know,
goal that you set up completely on your own that
like the game doesn't even need to do. And so
sometimes like sort of what a Ade was saying about Wow,
making people do things they don't want to do, It's
like it kind of puts a bad taste in your mouth,
even though you know, maybe you might enjoy it in
the long runner, you might have more fun. Like, well,

(01:18:27):
just let people find that on their own and don't
really force them into it.

Speaker 3 (01:18:31):
Yeah, we don't have a Patreon question this week because
you know, Francs being a little bit lazy not but
also we kind of just like, no, no, it's.

Speaker 1 (01:18:38):
It's completely Frog's fault.

Speaker 3 (01:18:39):
Completely, Okay, yeah, it is completely Frog's fault. But I
mean we did kind of just like back in my day.

Speaker 1 (01:18:45):
When I used to be on the pottyc we would
Froang would have to stay up late in Denmark and
he would be in the call with us, and he
would record himself and do all this stuff. And now
we got to log into this weird software and record
it for hims wake up and get his beauty sleep
and his cozy bed at whatever time he wants.

Speaker 3 (01:19:04):
So yeah, screw Frog, Yeah yeah, get to work Fronk. No,
but yeah, So I do want to wrap it up
with some of the Race the World First stuff. I
don't know if you guys have seen. I can't find
this too, but I swear there was like something that
showed the pole counts for all of the races, Races

(01:19:28):
the World First, and last year was actually insane. Last
year was actually the most amount of poll counts in
recent history. The second being Sepulcher, well I guess, no,
I guess, the first being supplicer. Supplecer was like a
thousand and two hundred poles and last year was a

(01:19:50):
thousand poles for the number one gild. Yeah yeah, for
the first kill. That's how many total polls it took,
which is actually insane. When he close, the guys think
this tier will take.

Speaker 1 (01:20:06):
I expect to make.

Speaker 2 (01:20:07):
Up a number.

Speaker 1 (01:20:07):
I expect to be miserable. I expect the last three difficult.
I expect we go into next week. Man, they have
any uh, I mean I was a little bit of
a spoiler. We're recording this Monday night and they still
haven't announced nerves to these the.

Speaker 3 (01:20:27):
Like well they did if this fight once. I mean
they're if this fight by five percent, I believe HB
when like a while ago, right like a couple hours ago. Yeah.

Speaker 2 (01:20:38):
A fun fact for a lot of people don't know,
Blizzard is always tuning the raid while we're doing it,
and so a lot of like quote unquote nerves might
go like under the radar, people not might not realize it.
So you saying that this boss got there five five percent,
I mean they're probably tuning one arm bandit literally as
we speak or while they're doing that fight, So who

(01:20:59):
knows what it was. Maybe it was easier before now
it's harder. Who knows, but I've actually I just remember
like pulling bosses and we would like reset and then
the boss would gain health and it's just like, dude,
that's crazy. Never I get to I mean, I don't
want to be a downer when I say this, but
like it really doesn't feel good to basically test the

(01:21:20):
bosses for them. Dude, Oh my god, dude. Tendril, when
we first did it, there was an extra fire beam
in P one that was like insane, by the way,
like that version of Tendril with just another fire beam
P one. By the way, P three, the way it
was designed originally before they nerved it before we got
there was impossible. Like okay, not impossible, but probably impossible.

(01:21:44):
They had three second seeds at the same time as
double fire beam, which, like the way that we did it,
we would bait the fire beam in the middle and
then run away, but the fire beams would be over
the seeds for the duration of three seconds. So like
imagine trying to soak a seed in a fire beam.

Speaker 1 (01:22:00):
Yeah, you're just dead if you don't have an immunity
or whatever.

Speaker 2 (01:22:04):
Yeah, but yeah, they're just always tuning things like as
the race is going on, So.

Speaker 1 (01:22:09):
I guess I just mean like specifically the bosses that
they're already pulling like I expect, yeah, like the fourth
Boss and the fifth Boss, like if they're already this hard,
like this tier is gonna be miserable for me, like
I'm in trouble year se Bro. They just posted an

(01:22:32):
announcement just because because I told because I told uh
dorky that I'd help with the podcast after raid and
of course we don't like we're just I don't know,
we don't even have the last like the last boss
of Eroic dead and they did well because they were
like they overtimed it. And I'm just like I told people,

(01:22:53):
like I'm not sitting here for I'm not waiting for
five hours. You could have got in.

Speaker 3 (01:23:00):
I don't know, yeah, definitely should have got.

Speaker 1 (01:23:04):
I mean, and I just saw the announcement that like,
oh they killed it or whatever, like I know they
can't kill it, but it's just like you know, a
time thing of you know, trying to kill everyone just
I don't know. Even like middling range guilds are just
so efficiency focused and like doing so many splits and
hours and doing all this shit, it's just crazy, man.

Speaker 2 (01:23:26):
I don't know, dude, you know what's crazy?

Speaker 1 (01:23:28):
I saw?

Speaker 2 (01:23:30):
I was like reading a Reddit comment. Somebody's like said
that they made a mirror, and there's like it's apparently
like more common these days that just people are making mirrors.
And it's not like a new thing necessarily, but it's
pretty new for how normalized it is for people to
be making mirrors.

Speaker 3 (01:23:45):
It's crazy to be pop guild.

Speaker 2 (01:23:47):
Yeah, just just anybody, and I mean insane. All I
can say is that, like the more normalized this kind
of degenerate behavior becomes, the more disconnected I become from
the game, because like, I don't want to make mirrors.
I just want to play my one I just want
to play one character and have fun, you know. I
just want to be a one guy.

Speaker 1 (01:24:08):
I ain't making a mirror.

Speaker 3 (01:24:11):
Yeah, it's real bad, all right.

Speaker 1 (01:24:13):
What do you guys think is this gonna is this
going to the third week or is this gonna be
a two week tier?

Speaker 2 (01:24:18):
I think Blizzard will make sure it's not a three
week tier.

Speaker 1 (01:24:22):
Oh that's scary though, because all right, making old Blizzard flames.
What do you think about any sort of hidden mythic phases?
Or things on the last pause.

Speaker 2 (01:24:37):
I'll be honest, just looking at the bass room, I
don't really see how they're gonna make a mythic phase that. Okay,
do you guys consider a mythic phase. It's just like
something that didn't show up in the Dungeon journal that
is now in the fight for like the last week
twenty percent or whatever.

Speaker 3 (01:24:52):
Probably not.

Speaker 1 (01:24:54):
It has to be like a totally different phase. It
can't just be like one mechanic and then the same
phases before. It would be like a totally different phase
with like multiple different.

Speaker 2 (01:25:06):
I just like I don't consider the Jailer mythic phase
a mythic phase, like a secret phase, because it's just boring.
Like I think, like goold Dan last phase super phase
is like fucking sick.

Speaker 1 (01:25:19):
Right, I've never seen since I started playing the game
started playing, there wasn't the only two I've seen our
Jailer and then uh what was the last that was
the biggest lefzone of like you poured it to a
room and you just like kill this random ad of.

Speaker 3 (01:25:36):
The Yeah, you guys have epic ones.

Speaker 2 (01:25:41):
You guys have no idea how confusing that was when
we were doing that fight like we had no idea
what the fuck was going on because the fight was bugged,
Like we thought that we were like shoot a cannon
at the boss and ship like, oh my.

Speaker 1 (01:25:53):
God, you were talking about how Blizzard tunes bosses. I remember,
like the portal was bugged and you were like killing
the boss and they had to de spawn it.

Speaker 2 (01:26:03):
They were like, wait, guys, let's just not go click
on the portal and they're like, wait a second, you
can't do that, Yeah, for everybody, And.

Speaker 1 (01:26:13):
They just despawned every boss from everybody just because of
that glorious.

Speaker 2 (01:26:21):
Yeah.

Speaker 3 (01:26:22):
So I don't know. I mean this raid, on one hand,
I kind of hope it goes until the third week.
Just so bad these guys suffered. What I want my
friends back man on the overhead, I mean, it's gonna
fucking suck for us too, man like, oh.

Speaker 1 (01:26:42):
Yeah, it's gonna suck so bad, dude.

Speaker 3 (01:26:45):
I want I don't want to just fucking hard. I
just want I just want one tier where I can
just complete it in peace and not require hundreds and
hundreds of polls to do the entire raid.

Speaker 1 (01:26:59):
Yeah, the last year either, it feels been.

Speaker 3 (01:27:04):
Unfortunately apparently, I don't know if we're allowed to mention this,
so you know, fronking Editors album apparently, I don't know
if you guys have seen there's a betting sites where
the odds right now are five to one for Laura.

Speaker 1 (01:27:21):
No.

Speaker 3 (01:27:21):
Yeah, yeah, so uh, Liquid being the one and Echo being.

Speaker 1 (01:27:24):
The five, as in that is crazy favorite.

Speaker 3 (01:27:29):
And no, well Echoes they're not the favorites because everyone's
like betting on Liquid right so that.

Speaker 1 (01:27:37):
Oh where does that site? Let me put all my
money on it? I mean, if it's five to one, yeah,
I mean it's if it's five to one, like I'm going,
I'm putting a mortgage on the house. Holy shit, It's
like it's nothing against Liquid, but like five to one,
are you fucking kidding me?

Speaker 2 (01:27:59):
Liquid is gonna probably win as well.

Speaker 3 (01:28:02):
Oh even with five and one odds, what do you mean?

Speaker 1 (01:28:06):
Evade's not a gambler, he doesn't speak that language.

Speaker 2 (01:28:10):
Yeah, I'm on five.

Speaker 3 (01:28:13):
If you're five, then you're on Echo. Oh yeah, have
odds are heavily against them.

Speaker 2 (01:28:20):
Okay, I'm I'm just like, I get what you're saying.
I just I'm viewing it in my head in the
inverse way. But yeah, no, I understand I'm saying that, Like, wait,
what are you saying that people aren't betting on Liquid?

Speaker 3 (01:28:36):
No, people are betting Okay, okay.

Speaker 1 (01:28:37):
Okay, I'm just what you're saying is very very very
heavily very favorite.

Speaker 2 (01:28:43):
I'm just saying I think Liquid's gonna win. I wouldn't
bet money on fucking anything because who knows. And also,
you know, I'm not like Row.

Speaker 3 (01:28:49):
I don't take risks like that, like five to one.
That is crazy.

Speaker 2 (01:28:53):
That is kind of crazy. But I mean, I don't know.
They just seem stronger. But we'll see.

Speaker 3 (01:28:58):
I try to put some money in the echo.

Speaker 2 (01:29:00):
Will pull something out of their pocket, you know.

Speaker 3 (01:29:05):
Yeah, I haven't been anything too bad. All right. Anyways,
that is it for an episode.

Speaker 1 (01:29:10):
Well, I gotta, I gotta, I gotta Patreon question comes
from Sure, what is it? Comes from Jim and he says,
so I subscribe to this Patreon but this podcast is
way worse than the bench. All right.

Speaker 3 (01:29:24):
Anyways, that is it for an episode. I will see
you guys some over time. Audios later

All Episodes

Ep. 62 - The A-Team Takes Over w/ Growl & Avade

Episode Transcript

Popular Podcasts

New Heights with Jason & Travis Kelce

Dateline NBC

On Purpose with Jay Shetty

.css-15opob5{left:0;position:absolute;top:0.8rem;} All Episodes

.css-14f5ked{margin:0;word-break:break-word;display:-webkit-box;-webkit-box-orient:vertical;box-orient:vertical;-webkit-line-clamp:2;overflow:hidden;}Ep. 62 - The A-Team Takes Over w/ Growl & Avade