Ep. 63 - Winning The Race to World First (Again) - The PoddyC

Episode Transcript
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Speaker 1 (00:00):
All right, welcome to episode sixty three of the pottyc
We are back from the race to World First, which
was a bit of a funny one this year, kind
of a big ramp up and then a short drop
off the cliff at the end, But overall I think
still obviously great experience for me, great experience for Max

(00:20):
as well. Dorky, what was it like watching watching the
race or being in the community during the race this time?

Speaker 2 (00:26):
Oh dude, super mixed opinions.

Speaker 3 (00:29):
Yeah.

Speaker 2 (00:29):
First of all, congrats to you guys, Congrats to Max
were winning, and congrats to journals for successful casting event
once again, Thank you, thank you.

Speaker 3 (00:38):
Oh yeah, so.

Speaker 2 (00:41):
I actually had a lot of opinions about this race,
or I guess this raid not race last year or
not last year last week, but my opinion has almost
entirely changed this week. So I came into last week thinking, oh,
this is gonna be the most overtuned worst rate ever.

(01:04):
We're already seeing the fourth and fifth Boss take like
one hundred something pose I automatically assumed that when our
bandit would be like two hundred. Pulp Boss Muggsy was
probably be like three hundred, and Gallywicks was gonna.

Speaker 3 (01:15):
Be a four hundred.

Speaker 2 (01:17):
And now that we are five out of six we
killed Sprockett yesterday, my opinion has changed drastically about this raid.
But uh, going back to your question, you were seeing
from a viewer experience, it was a.

Speaker 3 (01:31):
Pretty shitty rate, like a bad race. I was pretty.

Speaker 2 (01:35):
Unenjoyable to watch. Yeah, Like there were so many splits
going on, Like even on the final week, you guys
were doing splits, right, Max.

Speaker 3 (01:43):
That's that's happened in the past, like simultaneous non narrowbar palace,
simultaneous release. The Tuesday of the second reset, you almost
always do a bunch more splits. It doesn't usually take
the whole day. And I'm pretty sure like our are
that Tuesday was splits all day long and then we'd
like rekilled four mythic bosses and then went to bed

(02:06):
and I think Echoes first day of the second reset,
they didn't even pull mythic right, Like, there's definitely more
splits than there ever has been. There's like a ramping,
there's like this you can always do more thing. And
then we didn't have we had a full heroic wee
can airbar palace, so we made a bunch more characters
and then that just kind of transferred into this rate
and I don't know if it was even worth it,
but like having as much gear as possible was always

(02:27):
the idea. So yeah, splits fucking suck and the simultaneous
release is terrible for the race world first, But I
doubt the race world first is the reason why it
does or doesn't exist.

Speaker 2 (02:41):
Yeah, yeah, because I think you guys were even doing splits.
Was it after one arm band it? It might have
been that. I don't remember what exactly it was.

Speaker 3 (02:50):
There's always more like like I think we did like four,
like three and a half days of splits. I think
we went into mythic like after lunch on Friday, but
then we start we arted Saturday with three hours of mythic,
plus we did assorted other splits if we if our
power didn't go out at the end of week one,
we would have probably done a couple two eight of

(03:12):
eight mythics for people that we were going to use
next week, and we just didn't have the time. So yeah,
there was just a lot of gearing. This raid seemed
worse than others too, because there was certainly just more
pieces that you had to have from raid this tier
than others, and they weren't all very rare, but like
all of the train, like everyone needed House of Cards,

(03:34):
everyone needed Eye of Kazan, everyone needed Jasper Diamond, everyone
needed you know, best and slot or whatever like they needed.
They needed so many things to where you didn't just
need a good character with tear and high heroic eye
level pieces. In fact, a lot of times we had
people we killed, like the first four mythic bosses with

(03:56):
like very low eye level, like like people were wearing
waal stuff and just because you need it at least
on normal, you just needed all these pieces. So uh
it was. It was a lot worse than normal for sure.

Speaker 1 (04:12):
Yeah, I think that for the average guild it's an
interesting spot because I think now that they've nerved Sprocket
and sticks, the raid looks kind of fine.

Speaker 3 (04:21):
So do they nerve Sprocket.

Speaker 1 (04:23):
Oh, they took Sprocket out back and they they took
that boss and they demolished. Do you want to read
the notes on it? Actually it is a where one
of the most brutal slags of a boss to ever happen.

Speaker 3 (04:36):
There's no way. It's the most brutal sling.

Speaker 1 (04:38):
It's pretty big, like for a one week changed.

Speaker 3 (04:40):
To uh, where can I find that?

Speaker 1 (04:42):
To a boss? Yeah, I'll put them out peg adden Okay, Uh.

Speaker 3 (04:47):
I mean it's probably right. I mean like Sprockettmonger is
in the uh in the like brood Twister area of
the raid. It's the fifth boss even though it's nonlinear.
And I mean they took brood Twister out back and
Sprocketmongers every as hard as breod Twister was, so we
would kind of let you think that.

Speaker 1 (05:04):
So okay, health produced by thirteen percent, polarization generator dam
introduced by twelve point five unsable explosion, seventeen point five
rocket brush, twenty five void splash, thirty three polarization blast
produced by thirty and duration reduced by twenty five produce
the number of rockets by twenty percent, produce the number
of void orbs by twenty nine percent.

Speaker 3 (05:23):
I mean that that back part doesn't even matter. So
I saw I didn't read, but the nerves were, but
I heard ID and their reclear yesterday killed Sprocketmonger before
it did the first set of balls. Like, yeah, this
Brocketmonger is just like I mean, just like the we
spent like eighty poles in the last space. Yeah right,
so like most of the difficulty was there and now
you just completely skip it, which I mean is certainly good.

(05:45):
I mean, yeah, so the difficulty cover of the raid
now is crazy. Now that Sticks and Sprocketmonger are nerve,
it's like like a couple poles for Rick probably, I'm
going to guess like twenty thirty twenty Yeah for Sticks.

Speaker 2 (05:57):
Maybe these busses are still pretty chilling, well at least four,
okay my gield. I assume it's probably gonna be worse
for guilds that are worse than mine.

Speaker 1 (06:05):
So I think Styx is now once again quite a
bit harder than Sprocket after these nerves of Sprocket. Okay,
because like you still you still have a pretty big
fail case of if a ball rolls into a bomb shell,
it's kind of it's not like over over, but it's
pretty over for guilds that are doing that right now.

Speaker 3 (06:21):
Yeah, take a couple of bombs are still hard to kill. Two, Yeah,
I have very comp dependent it's comp yeah, exactly, Like
if you can't field some extra shadow priest Muonkins or whatever,
you're going to be in trouble or fire mages, but
fire mages relies on tanks, right, like moving the boss properly.
But yeah, the healths been nerves so much that like
basically it makes sense for all melee to just like

(06:43):
get off the boss and swap to the bombshells and
break them and then back on.

Speaker 1 (06:46):
Yeah, not to mention the blood decay. So it's it
is a very comprestrictive fight where if you're trying to
do it with like without a blood decay, without a mooncin,
with like one shadow past, it's gonna be It's still
gonna be.

Speaker 3 (06:57):
Maybe if you have a theory, this may not be
the time for it, but I think progressing sticks without
a blood decay will actually be easier. So there's a
lot of we wiped a lot to gripping the bombshells.
They have a really really weird hip box, Like basically
during the grip, anywhere in the grip, including their original location,
if you were to run over it, it would blow

(07:18):
up some very weird positioning thing. And when like for
when people are trying to go into the back of
the boss, they don't know if it's going to be
gripped or when, so you have to hard avoid it.
And if they were never to be gripped, they have
a very obvious like kite direction and they're not very fast,
so it's easy to avoid them. So I would actually
be willing to wager that it's just because of the nerves.

(07:40):
When you knock the bombshells off, they're going to get
into the rate and die. You're not worried about killing
them fast enough, So gripping, I don't think really matters.
And I think gripping is a big wipe causer, Like
it was a huge wipe causer for us, and near
the end of the progression on that boss for World First,
I was like, we could just sit DK if we
wanted to, because I'm pretty sure gripping is causing more
wipes in it solving. So just the thoughts if you

(08:01):
guys don't have a bloody k I'm pretty sure the
hardest person's job is the junk roller people, the people
in the balls, and their job, in my opinion, becomes
a lot easier when you take grips out of the
fight entirely. Just interesting, yeah, interesting.

Speaker 2 (08:18):
We haven't had too much issues with that in our guild,
but I could imagine a lot of guilds struggling with that. Yeah,
so far V's bosses have taken my guild still quite
a bit amount of poles compared to the usual third, fourth,
and fifth boss.

Speaker 3 (08:38):
Like I think.

Speaker 2 (08:40):
Rake was like thirty something poles. I mean, granted we
were a lower ATAM level at a time when we
killed it for the first time. Stikes was like sixty
seventy ish and half of them were pre nerve. I
would say, like more than half of them were pre nerve.
Uh Sprocket was like fifty year round and now we're
on one armed banded. But I've actually been really enjoying

(09:04):
how it feels to have more challenging earlier bosses, Like
I actually like the idea of all the bosses taking
less than a hundred poles but not be complete earlier.

Speaker 3 (09:19):
Yeah.

Speaker 2 (09:19):
Yeah, actually, because there's been a lot of complaints about
how the later bosses are too easy or like two
undertoo or whatever. But I'm I'm not too like I
haven't gone there yet, but I'm not too pessimistic about
it because like this is kind of what I've been
asking for, right, Like, I just want a bunch of
bosses that are less than a hundred poles but aren't

(09:39):
going to be a complete pushover. Like you get to
do different bosses, you get to like feel meaning book,
meaningful progression instead of just being hard stuck at a
boss for like three hundred boles.

Speaker 1 (09:50):
I mean, I think it's good as well. Yeah, yeah,
you say.

Speaker 3 (09:53):
What you're gonna say right now, you wanted to cut
in before.

Speaker 1 (09:56):
I just I feel like it's fine if the race
has them overtuned as well and they fix it fast,
like I don't know, people were complaining about Sticks and Sprocket,
and I think there's sort of a reasonable fear that
Blizzard's gonna leave them like that, because they sometimes do.
But as long as they do nerf them at this speed.
I actually also think that it's totally fine to have
like really hard raced world first Boss bar and five

(10:17):
and then nerf them for normal guilds so that they're
medium hard Boss four and five. I agree with you, Doroky,
that's fun. Where I disagree is I don't think an
end boss can be as easy as Galewicks and be
satisfying for a lot of people. I think that I
think that's just too like bad.

Speaker 3 (10:33):
Yeah, I mean there's there's so I've seen these arguments
a lot. I think there's a middle ground. So, like
we've gotten used to the last bosses being pretty fucking
insane over the last couple of years. Right, So you
have Queen answer Ek insanely hard. Right, you have fire
Ac insanely hard. Those two bosses are actually both top

(10:53):
five hardest bosses of all time. And then you go
back one radio of Sarcreth kind of a that's a
seven and a half minute boss with the Cress system
being op That boss got killed and about the same
amount of poles as Galiwix did actually, and then you
have but go before that, say Sarkress an outlier, you
have Razagath, which was so overtuned it had to be

(11:15):
nerved like five times. And even then I think the
overall poll count at the end was pretty high, uh,
even though it died really fast after the last nerve.
And before that is Jaylor, right, But before Jaylor you
had what I think is the middle ground. You had silvanis. Sorry,
there's a leaf flower directly outside my window here. You
guys don't hear it, Okay, if you don't hear it,

(11:37):
then I'm just gonna keep on top now I hear it. Yeah, okay,
but keep Frank will fix. I don't want to make
him do that. I'm just gonna let this very loudly
flower man go by and I remember my train of thought,
and he'll just piece the two together. It'll be amazing.

Speaker 1 (11:51):
Okay.

Speaker 3 (11:51):
And before Jaylor, you know, which was another insane boss.
So it's been like basically five raids in a row
of outside of anomalies, the and bosses are like three hundred,
four hundred pull beasts, right, but before that you had
Silvanas it was like two hundred poles. You had cast,
you had sired an Athrius, it was one hundred and
thirty poles for us, and I think was kind of
consistently one hundred and thirty to one hundred and fifty

(12:12):
like throughout all of farm. Right, So I think an
end boss I think being fifty poles, which I think
is going to be the average for most people on
Galliwicks because like you saw Echo do it at that
level with like full strat, but also Echo's really fucking good,
and like there wasn't really like a gear check for that,
so like you having more gear isn't going to necessarily

(12:33):
make Galliwicks much easier, right, Like, there wasn't really a
lot of optimization checks that were there, So like fifty
poles will be good for you, and maybe it's like
a little higher than that, But I like dorky, I
think four hundred pole end bosses for the average player,
that's insane. That's like that's that would actually go ahead
and say that's just not okay, Like I don't think
that's good for the game. I think that burns people.

(12:55):
I think there's just a certain amount of poles you
can do on a boss, or no matter how gratifying
it is when you kill it, it's just too much.
And that number is probably that. But I think there's
a number within like one hundred to two hundred that
has been Like people didn't complain about Danathrius, and Dnathrius
didn't die in fifty poles, right, I think end boss
is being a little harder than they are now. Like,

(13:15):
but also I don't think Galliwix was intentional. I'd be
willing to bet a lot and I'm sure this will
be asked in some interviews that like, clearly something went
massively wrong on Galliwicks. And we can probably talk about
that a little bit too, but the overall curve should
be nicer because like you're doing Sprott. If you're doing
Sprocket in fifty sticks and fifty one, arm bandit in fifty,

(13:35):
Mugsy's very hard, uh and very compependent. So probably a
hundred HOUNDO plus easily. Like we killed that boss on
one hundred and fifty poles and I think we smoked
that boss. Like we maybe had like fifteen wipes to
bugs at the end, but like that was we did
really really well to do that. And then Galliwicks being

(13:56):
fifty fifty to one hundred for most S guilds like
that's I think it's gonna least be even if you
look at this tier as a failure if you're one
of those people, which I don't know how many people
who are playing the game that feel that way. I
feel like a lot of those people are viewers that yeah.

Speaker 1 (14:11):
I fect like it was a bad race. It'll be
a good tier to play.

Speaker 3 (14:14):
Yeah, exactly. And I think just like most things like
all did they need to nerve ag as much as
they did. No aug is like if all isn't good,
buffing Boomkins on sticks, it's unplayably bad all the time, right,
So like, did they need to make it that bad? No,
But they've been really good since they've been released for years,
and it's like, could they be really bad for just

(14:36):
one patch? They can and that's okay, right, just like
most other classes go through that unless you're a mage,
and that that is something that has to happen, right,
So like if they do one raid intentional or not,
where like it's actually not going to take that long.
I think that's going to be a good, good little science,
good little test, you know, to see what kind of
interaction you get with the raid and see how people

(14:57):
like that, because I think it's possible that that be
something that people really like, and that doesn't necessarily mean
making the race worse. Like Drattno said, you can have
sticks and Sprocket, which again I think they did not
intend them to be that hard even for us, But
you can have those bosses almost immediately be made regular
for people, right, and as long as they do that

(15:18):
in a timely manner, I think that it works.

Speaker 1 (15:20):
You could do it with an end boss as well,
like Answerk was Gigahard and then they nerved it to
be medium giga hard, but it was still They could
have just nerved it by more a week that they
like nerfd it for non race world first guilds and
like that sort of like that it's possible to overshoot
and make the race world first like nuclear difficulty, and

(15:41):
then fix it for you can fix it in time
for everybody else, because by definition of it being the
race world first, only a couple of guilds are on it,
and then you can have it be you can leave
it for a week or something if it's an end boss,
and then shoot it. But I think for me that
the raid looks like it's going to be a good
one overall, pending probably a Muggs nerve at some point
in the next couple of weeks. I do. I do

(16:04):
think that the the comp restriction side of this tier, though,
is still going to be a stain against it, even
though the difficulty is down. Like the fact that Moonkin's
on sticks Shatter Priests on Bandit Mages on the last
two make your life so much easier on those fights.
To the extent that they do, to the stack ability
that they do, I think is going to be something

(16:26):
bad about this tier, but I still think it'll be
maybe an above average tier to play despite being probably
like a bottom twentieth percent dile rate.

Speaker 3 (16:34):
What is it on Heroic? What is like what is
the general vibe of people that I mean the majority
of the rating audience their end goal is AotC or less, right, So, like,
what are do you guys? Have you guys put out
a vibe check of how people feel about their raid
on Heroic?

Speaker 2 (16:50):
No clue, Uh, it seems good, but it's just the
Raid itself is a little bit too cluttered. It's too
visually noise. There's too much happening, you know, especially when
you're doing here. Like so what I said last week
was this raid feels like there's so much happening but

(17:10):
nothing matters. At the same time, you get what I'm saying, Like,
if you look at Sprocketmonger, there are so many mechanics
on Heroic that just like straight up don't matter, but
they're just like there to add noise to your screen.
And it just like like even even Ivade was talking
about that because when he was pugging Muggsy, it's like

(17:31):
chaos is happening, and then like it just like randomly
starts raining too, but none of it really kills you,
So it's just it just feels like there's a lot
of stuff happening.

Speaker 1 (17:44):
Yeah, the last few on heros, do you have a
couple of like like, if you do minds wrong on Muggsy,
you're gonna wipe, right, But like most other stuff is
kind of fine. There's not almost any wipe on Muggsy
is gonna involve minds going wrong, right, Heroic, which is weird, right.
It sort of feels like on Mythic as well, like

(18:05):
there's there are some bosses where it's just like the
difficulty is extremely loaded into one or two mechanics in
a way that feels wrong. I would look at Sprocketmonger
as an example of this as well. Sprocketmunger Mythic is
all about the void orbs until they nerved it, so
that now it's all about killing it before the void orbs.
But like that mechanic is two hundred times more lethal
than any other mechanic on that fight, or ever on

(18:27):
a fifth boss, it's like one person gets hit by
a void orb, you're almost dead. Two people it's over it, right,
It's a wipe and that's like, so, I don't know, strange,
it just does feel wrong.

Speaker 2 (18:42):
It feels like they've added a lot of swirlies for
the sake of having swirlies.

Speaker 1 (18:47):
You love the swirly visibility updates.

Speaker 3 (18:49):
So I actually I was thinking about this. It's like
a chicken or the egg issue. Do you think they
made the bosses so like Dodge and so contensive with
the new swirlies because of the new swirly system or
do you think that someone in like the early testing
cycle looked at the design of these bosses and they
were like, if we were ever going to do a

(19:11):
new swirly system, it has to be right now, like
it has to exist before this raid goes live. I
actually wonder which one. I mean, it's probably the first one,
but it could be the second one. There's so many.

Speaker 1 (19:22):
Also, do you think that people complaining about this raid
being swirly heavy are just people that wouldn't have noticed
them in the previous tiers because they were harder to see.

Speaker 2 (19:30):
So I'm glad you brought that up because I thought
about that too, and I tried looking back to older
raids and it feels like there's nothing happening in older raids,
Like I tried looking at Argusts like a world first
Argus kill, there are there's like so much less swirly
is happening. It's kind of just like, all right, there's
the mechanic, there are the things you need to know

(19:51):
to do, and that was it. It wasn't like, all right,
so there's a mechanic happening, but by at the same
time there are lines you out of dodge, and there
are swirlies and there are stump coming at you.

Speaker 3 (20:02):
I mean ninety percent of it's Galleywix right, like Galliwicks
just has I would be willing to bet that Galiwicks
has maybe double the swirlies of any other boss that's
ever existed.

Speaker 1 (20:12):
It's it's like heroic methetic.

Speaker 3 (20:15):
After every tank mechanic, there's red circles all over the room.
Every time you run away for suppression. Half the raid
is like having fire fire trail them. Like there's just
there's circles all the time.

Speaker 2 (20:25):
I honestly feel that way about most of the bosses.
But like even the second boss like Carnage or whatever.
Oh yeah, during the cl that boss, I mean, even
like before the clash is happening right, Like there's waves
coming at you, but at the same time, there's like
a frontal somewhere to the side, and there's like circles
spawning and you have to spread. It just feels like
kind of a lot going on. Not that if it's

(20:46):
all lethal.

Speaker 3 (20:48):
Yeah, I mean I that one specifically, Cauldron of Carnage.
Like when you look at the intermission, you're like, if
you care about gameplay and visual clarity, you're like, this
was not But I think Blizzard like they're like, this
is the second boss. Esthetically, that boss like is a
very memorable thing from the raid, So I think like
they just went all in on that just looking super cool,
even though it was way too bright and there was

(21:10):
way too many things happening. But I think that's also
another boss where they're like, hey, we have a new
swirly system. We can make them different colors as well,
you know, like the red and blue. I think overall
and ended up, I think the new swirlies are a
massive success though, like in dungeons and in raids like
going forward, I think that's like one of the better
things they've updated or added to the game in a
long time, Like up On the tiers with like the

(21:31):
ping system. I think it's just like something that needed
to be modernized.

Speaker 2 (21:37):
Yeah, I guess the best thing they've added. So going
back to the whole difficulty curve, I didn't have a
lot I want to say about it. So first of all,
thank you Max were saying that Foger plus polls is
not okayvat should not be normal whatsoever, because I do
fear with all the backlash we're getting from the race
of World first fans that you know, Blizzard might see like, oh,

(21:59):
you know, next year we have to crank it up.

Speaker 3 (22:02):
I do.

Speaker 2 (22:03):
I mean, like you are right, Drandos. As long as
they quickly nerve these fights, it'll be fine. The problem
is like for the longest time Lizard has taken forever too.

Speaker 1 (22:15):
That is the big problem, right, It is like, yeah,
if something has like an eighty percent chance of getting
nerves time late, Lee, and twenty percent of not, it's
so bad when they decide to just leave it for
a month.

Speaker 2 (22:25):
Yeah, I We've done such a good job this time
and around where like these bosses immediately got chopped in
half and they actually feel playable because before it was
like all right, if you were a mythic grading guild.
You just got to these bosses and you had to afk, like,
what are you gonna do? You're gonna do it, Go
do myfic splits, or you'll just prog on a boss
for hundreds of polls until Blizzard decides to finally do
something about it. Like that has always felt awful and

(22:49):
I didn't where you're going from here?

Speaker 3 (22:51):
You did that is.

Speaker 1 (22:53):
Not like a full one, but we did the two
out of eight. That max is like the liquid was
gonna do where it's like, okay, it's Monday. We could
pull from our spots like we have we have sticks
at fifty percent or whatever. We know we are nowhere
close to this and raged Jack, you know, we're down
like a moonkin and a shadow priest. From from that,
let's just gear all of our unsaved guys. Then the

(23:13):
two out of eight.

Speaker 3 (23:15):
Yeah, yeah.

Speaker 2 (23:16):
And the second thing is like I don't have an
opinion on Galuybix yet, but if I were to just
take a random guess, I would say that boss is
probably still going to be pretty challenging for most players
because most players can't really field form mages in like
five months, and we don't have the same skill level

(23:37):
as the top of players, right, so I don't necessarily
know if it'll be something that'll be like fifty poles
or least, like I imagine it's still gonna be over
one hundred poles, And I feel that's completely okay because
I mean, a hot pot hero those guys took like
one hundred and eight poles or something.

Speaker 3 (23:53):
They're World four yeas, see a bunch of bulls.

Speaker 2 (23:57):
Right yeah, yeah, so like it it seemed like Echo
was kind of an anomaly I.

Speaker 3 (24:04):
Echo. Yeah, some might say it really good.

Speaker 2 (24:07):
I don't know if we would consider them the best,
but you know they're pretty good. Definitely anyway, Yeah, definitely
tut too. Anyways, I don't feel like there's an issue
with having a boss take over one hundred, like just
under two hundred or like slightly over one hundred, because
like we look at Castel Nafria, one of the most
well regarded raids, and it had some of the shittiest

(24:30):
difficulty curve, didn't they Like we had s G take
double them ount of polls as Sired to Naprius, and
Sired Nafrius was considered the s tier boss like everyone's favorite, right,
Like you guys had it ranked here in your tier lists, right,
So I don't really buy the whole Gallywakes is a
terrible boss or like Blizzard should be ashamed of themselves

(24:52):
for creating this boss because that just seems like a
boogey man, or like maybe we're just too conditioned by
these past few raids to feel like that.

Speaker 3 (25:01):
Again, Like I don't really know.

Speaker 2 (25:02):
I'm kind of just making it up because I haven't
done Galliwicks myself, so maybe my opinion will completely change
by the time I get to the Gallowis. But I just
don't think it'll be as easy as it seems.

Speaker 1 (25:15):
Yeah, I mean, I also haven't pulled it, but from
watching it, I don't know it felt. This has been
my take on the Boss. It just feels like the
pacing of abilities is not Mythic. Like I don't know, Mactually,
you've talked about pulling Tindril ptr and being like, oh,
this boss is gonna be super easy, and then on
Mythic it came out and it was casting like fifty
percent faster. It feels like Galliwicks is just missing that

(25:38):
like pacing to it where it's just every time it
does an ability it just does the ability and then
five seconds later it does the next ability rather than
ever like doing a hard overlap on mythic. Is that
a fair assessment of why it is so easy?

Speaker 3 (25:50):
Yeah, it's definitely. I mean I actually so, I was
bored today and I was making raid plans for Galliwicks
about how we would deal with every single mechanic being
like mythic afiede right, like, so the suppression being twice
as big the group, so it's either happening at the
exact same time or in very quick succession, involving all

(26:10):
twenty people instead of ten, or and things. And I
was just thinking about, like how you would deal with
the fight like that, and it seemed like the amount
of thinking that normally goes into like a regular end boss.
And yeah, I mean, it does seem like that. My
theory we learned recently that when they make bosses, they
make them on heroic and then they make them harder

(26:31):
for mythic and they make them easier for normal. They
don't make mythic bosses and then make them two steps
easier and one step easier they make heroic bosses. This
is the first time I believe ever where the mythic
version of an end boss is completely different than the
heroic version, meaning that they basically made a new fight

(26:52):
on mythic and every other time they make a new
fight they make it on heroic. So I wonder if
the reason it felt like kind of a it was
definitely think calling this a heroic boss is completely disingenuous,
but like, yeah, I like, you know, some of the
mechanics did feel like heroic spacing rather than like Dratna said,
the mythic feeling of like how Tindril turned out, where
they're just rapid firing things at you, like this boss

(27:13):
didn't feel that way, And I wonder. My first theory is,
I wonder if it's just what happens, it's it's a
fault of just making a boss and airing on the
side of being easier because every other time they make
a boss, they're not making a mythic boss. And also
this is the first time ever they've had basically the
entire boss not being a dungeon journal, which, by the way,
very very fucking cool if you're exactly us and no

(27:34):
one else, because it's the same thing of just following
a video. But for us, it was really really fucking cool.
Maybe they thought that, like there's a lot of added
difficulty without a dungeon journal, So maybe they thought they
didn't need to make the boss as difficult because part
of the difficulty is going to be figuring it out
and they just don't realize how good we are at
stuff like that, or they I mean, they nerve the

(27:55):
boss's HP, and I know, like nerves before you see
a boss doesn't really matter, like if you really want
to track that. In like every raid, bosses are buffed
after we're in the raid, like before we get to them,
constantly nerf buffed Like that happens all the time. But
like maybe a theory this raid that might not be
wrong is they saw Styx and Sprocket take the entire
first week. That's never happened before. We've never ended a

(28:17):
first reset without killing basically the second to last boss,
or at least the one right before it, and this
one was like totally different. So I think they panicked
and they were like, we can't have this race go
to the third reset. We don't want that three percent
buff coming into play. So like basically from the early
part of week two, they just made the last bosses
a bit easier, which is trackable with nerves like that
could have been the idea. They were kind of afraid

(28:39):
of the race going too long because of the obvious
misstep on their end with Sprocket and Sticks's tuning. It
was maybe a combination of all those factors. But I
also still don't think they missed as much as people
think they did. And I know a lot of that
is like race viewers being like, we weren't given this
this echo and Liquid pulling the boss the last boss

(29:02):
at the same time having it low like the dream, right,
And I think that's a lot of it, even though
last raid was not close at all and it was
like the hardest rate of all times, So I don't think.

Speaker 1 (29:12):
Looked closer though in the sense of like, oh, Echo
forty percent, Liquid ten percent, right, Like if you were
a low information viewer you could think it was close
still then yeah maybe yeahs this was like Echo, we're
asleep and Liquid just killed the boss, right.

Speaker 3 (29:26):
Yeah, exactly. But I think like last like this, I've
heard this boss compared to like Xavius, so I think ridiculous.
It's definitely so all of Emerald Nightmare in total, including
like a five hour scenarios. Thing was killed in fifteen hours.
It took us fifteen hours of progression to kill Galliwicks, right,

(29:48):
so a lot more than that. I would also say Sarkareth.
It took us almost the same time to progress Sarkareth
actually as it did Galliwicks. I think Echo if Echo
logged in on Sarkareth with our entire strat and not
having to come up with their own, right, like, obviously
that was the difference in fifty poles on Gallex, you
can see how that can change your pole count. Like,

(30:08):
I think they would have done Sarkreth in a very
similar amount of poles. I think this is very This
boss is very comparable to Sarkret. I think we killed
it within fifteen poles of it, and I think given
the same circumstances, it would have been killed in much
fewer certainly sub one hundred by Echo. Uh. Afterwards, maybe
the Xavious comparison makes sense. I actually think this boss
is maybe more egregious than Xavius in that Zavius was

(30:30):
supposed to be easy like Emerald Nightmare or himol Mogush invaults.
They were supposed to be easy raids. They were not
supposed to be what this raid was, or Narbar Palace
or Oldier any of the other first raids that for
a while Castle Nathria right in a way, this one
missed more because I think this was missed its target
by a lot more than Xavius ever did. Thinks Avious
like if anything, like barely missed its target and this
one maybe missed it by a lot from what they wanted.

(30:55):
I don't know. I I am the only thing that
the only thing I know for sure about this boss
is it's gonna be another one of those bosses where
we like loved progression on this fight. We obviously wish
it was like a little harder, but like it was
really really fun, Like that was some of the most
fun I've ever had. Then they should. I know, it's
maybe bad sample size because the one time they did this,

(31:16):
the tuning was bad, but the doing the end boss
with the no dungeon journal thing on Mythic goes crazy
like that was so sick. And if it's ever a
closer race where both guilds are doing that at the
same time, I think it'd be like just peak interesting
and also doesn't change anything for the average player because
I think regardless of the end Boss Dungeon Journal, when
any other guild gets there, they're going straight to our

(31:37):
kill video, right, They're not dissecting the Dungeon Journal. It's
so it doesn't change anything for anyone else. It just
makes what we're doing way cooler.

Speaker 1 (31:43):
Yeah, if anything, they should put the abilities back in
the Dungeon Journal now so that it's less annoying to like, yeah,
have to the abilities or whatever. But yeah, I mean
I sometimes do. I sometimes you look through and you
see ast thing that killed you on the thing and
they're like, oh, what is this? You know, oh that
has a knock back associated or whatever. But yeah, I
think that it's I think that it's a cool concept.

(32:05):
And I do think that, like it's probably just a
case of if they don't nerf this, it'll probably be
like Sarcareth was a pretty popular boss among cutting edge
gills that.

Speaker 2 (32:12):
Tyar, yeah exactly, and casting that for you.

Speaker 1 (32:17):
Yeah, I mean, I'm I haven't again, I haven't bold yet,
so I suspect I'm going to be left a little
bit wanting of like a slightly harder boss. But I
agree with you that, like I'm not I don't want
it to be Answerrek every tier. I don't want it
to be Jailer every tier. Like I think that.

Speaker 3 (32:33):
It's been a long time, like outside of anomalies with Sarkreth,
it has been years since we have not gotten a
boss on the Jailer or Firerak or Answerk n boss
level difficulty that is clearly or has been their target.

Speaker 1 (32:46):
So I think I think lowering the target is good.
I just don't think by quite as much as Galliwick
lowers it, at least if you're gonna do that as well,
Like I mean, I think it's clear that it's a
miss because Muggsy is harder than Galliwicks and like that.

Speaker 3 (32:57):
Yeah, Muggsy's a very normal difficulty for second last boss.
They didn't miss on that at all.

Speaker 1 (33:02):
Right, So if you think, if you think that Galliwick
should be this easy, you need to also think that
Muggsy needs to be like three times easier than it is,
which I guess that is a consistent and fair viewpoint
that I think a lot of people probably will hold.
But it doesn't at least it proves that like the
entire tier's difficulty curve wasn't a master class right either.
They were wrong on Galliwick's or a Muggsy. I think
probably a little bit of both. Like I think Muggsy

(33:23):
could maybe be a little bit easier, definitely less buggy
and class stack valuing. Like the Ignite, their decisions surrounding
the goons and AOI and Ignite and stuff clearly weren't
really well thought out because they changed them week one
of Heroic how that that mob functioned, So I think
they didn't understand how that how that ability was going
to get played and it doesn't play out like it
did on Mythic. I also think Sprocketmonger is a good

(33:45):
example of like they made the fight hard because of
one mechanic, the void orbs, and then they nerved it
by making the health lower so you don't get there,
rather than by making that mechanic easier.

Speaker 2 (33:57):
We did calm on there for a second, Trotles, I
think it's only a couple of guilds that probably don't
make it to those void orbs because we made it
to void orbs last night.

Speaker 1 (34:06):
Okay, that's good. Yeah, I guess they did make them
a lot easier. I just I still see I think
they should have nerved the void orbs by more and
the let the rest of the fight by Lass is
basically my take on Sprocket. Like they nerve void splash
by thirty three percent and the number of void orbs
by twenty nine percent, and I think you could double
both of those heavily.

Speaker 3 (34:20):
Heavily agree with that. I think the void orbs are
like so so exponentially harder than anything else in the fight.
It's like it's like a different difficulty.

Speaker 1 (34:29):
Yeah, so I think that because I think you nerf
you could nerve that by more. You could still take
some health off the thing. But like, I don't know,
I don't think you need to necessarily nerve unstable explosion
damage for instance, or polarization blast, like I think those
mechanics are fine to be And actually I think the
knockback is another one. You can nerve the duration of
the knockback so that you don't get screwed for gatewaging early.

(34:52):
But other than that, Yeah, what do you what is
what's your I've seen a lot of very interesting hey
on this, But what is your alls take on the
secret phase?

Speaker 3 (35:04):
I don't even know what it is? Like, I guess
maybe what are your takes on secret phases in general? You,
should they do more of them? Should they do less
of them? Okay?

Speaker 2 (35:13):
My take is that there hasn't been a secret phase
since Legion, Like yeah, like there's a whole ends off
with his like stupid gig or whatever and the room
and Jailer. I don't feel like those were secret phases.
I feel like in order for it to be a
secret mythic phase, it has to be like something epic
and something like.

Speaker 1 (35:32):
There hasn't been a good one since Legion.

Speaker 2 (35:34):
Sure, however you want to put it, but I just
I just feel like they registrate. I'm not even like
real secret phases.

Speaker 3 (35:40):
It has to be.

Speaker 2 (35:41):
Something that, like, you know, like if you're watching it
in the race world first for the first time ever,
it has to be like holy or like this is
like insane.

Speaker 3 (35:48):
Yeah, I guess faces have always been like this little
addition at the end of the fight that's not hard.
None of them have ever been hard. They're like the
easiest part of the fight. It's just like a extra
little thing for you to figure out at the end.
I guess, like I'm pretty sure, Like, for example, the
only reason the one in Legion was cool is because
Elden was in it, Like I don't think it was
any better of a phase than like the end of Jailor, Right,

(36:09):
It's just Ilidin was there and that went hard as fuck. Yeah,
it's got to be a spectacle. Yeah, and maybe that's
why they do them so infrequently. You know, Uh, Jranus,
what did you think about it?

Speaker 1 (36:20):
Yeah? I do think that this wasn't a see like
Galliwick wasn't a secret phase. It was a secret boss
or like a different boss, but it wasn't I do
agree with you as well, Doroky that, like, I don't
think that it doesn't count, Like I don't think Jailor
one doesn't count, but I don't think the Jailor one
is worth doing. I don't think they should do secret
phases where it's like this is like I think the
secret phases should be entirely designed from the perspective of

(36:42):
like if somebody who hasn't played Wow in three years
is tuning into the race world first and sees the
moment of like Ilodin dropping out of the crystal and
they're like, holy fuck, this is Pogger's. That should be
the goal for any secret pase, like Galliwick should have done,
like he should have like jumped into the middle of
his room for a secret phase and then like you
chase him down there and he's got a big cannon

(37:02):
named at Stormwind that you gotta like you got to
blow up before he blows it up or whatever. Like
some there's got to be something like that where it's
got like an epic narrative component to it, because I
do think that the like little like oh, we're going
to the heart of Azroth chamber and uh and then
we're coming back out, or like oh, the tailor is
he's putting his hands and is there and he's maybe

(37:24):
healing or maybe not if you're really smart, and then
you're doing it a little bit more of a phase
like that, I don't think is I don't think it's
really worth doing. I do think that the idea of
doing and bosses that are different on mythic than heroic,
which is what Gallowicks was right. Gallowax, I would agree
with you, Max wasn't a secret phase. I do think
that's pagers and very cool if they make a fun

(37:44):
mythic fight, and there are maybe mythic fights you can
make that you can't make on lower difficulties, right like
a there are heroic bosses. There are mechanics and like
fight designs that just would not work on a lower
difficulty that can exclusively be done on mythic that they
maybe would never get to if they did the usual
process upscaling a heroic boss. But Galeries wasn't that right?
Like the Galowics mythic fight could easily be a heroic.

Speaker 3 (38:05):
Yeah, I would argue it better. I think the Gallowix
mythic fight is actually just better than Heroic. It's a
better fight. Yeah.

Speaker 1 (38:12):
I mean, Heroic has like a weird mechanic of the
floor turning into lava when you deposit, but you just
don't deposit enough times for that to matter unless you ask.

Speaker 3 (38:21):
Yeah, it almost seems like the mythic one was the
one they had in mind, and they like kind of
made it easier for Heroic. I would love to ask
them about that. Like my my secret phase thing is,
I think all secret phases, not for one, have never
and this is not known to the viewers, but has
never been a secret, So it's never ever ever a secret.
When you get there, you know basically everything the phase
does and you just need to see it all put together.

(38:43):
Kind of uh So, that's one part of it. Number two,
I think they're just super overrated because they're not like
this crazy thing like they're usually super easy. So I
I like, if you have a choice between doing what
you did on Galiwicks for like a secret phase, which
basically every thing on the Boss to be honest with
you as a secret, like even p ones on the Journal.

(39:04):
But like the way the ads worked and how they
spawned and already being on the bridge and stuff like that,
that stuff's weird, like that that was basically could have
not been in the Dunge Journal would have been the
same thing. And then everything from seventy percent basically to
zero is all a secret. It's all none of it.
None of it was known at all. You just had
to like see it and figure it out, and that

(39:24):
if you're gonna do anything secret, I love the idea
of just the whole Boss being being secret honestly, because like,
I like, it wasn't the Boss wasn't hard enough for
people to really care about that. And I also think
going dark hurt that a lot, and it's kind of
bad for viewership in general. But like, like if people
would have saw us get to that past the part
you see in the Dungeon Journal like live. I think
that would have been like insane. That would have been

(39:44):
so cool that like hearing us react to that and
problem solve it, which you got to see most of
that last day, but like the initial hype of it
was known before that. But I think it's really cool.
I think they should. I think it can be easy
to be like that didn't work from blizzards end, but
that's not always what why it didn't work. I think
a lot of things, if you want to say it

(40:04):
didn't work, could be talked about. But I think what
they did on the Boss was like really cool and
like it wasn't punishing enough, but it was still just
a really good boss. It's a good boss, like you're
not gonna kill Galliwicks and not like it really unless
you're like a race World first guild and you're like, man,
I wish this was way harder, right, But like I
think it's like like genuinely or generally a pretty good fight.

Speaker 2 (40:25):
Yeah, that part is actually so true. You were saying
how like you found it really fun doing Galliwicks figuring
out for the first time, And honestly, I think that's
been the sentiment for a lot of this raid, not
not the figuring out part, but these fights in general
have just been pretty enjoyable. Like, I think this might
be the most fun raid in a while. It might
be kind of crazy to say, because you know, I'm
not normally I have to say, like, oh, this rate

(40:47):
is Pogger or whatever, but this might actually be one
of the more fun raids in a very long time.

Speaker 3 (40:51):
And well, that's not surprising for me to hear that
from you, because it sounds like your experience and rating
is like you enjoy rating and figuring out boss, but
there's just like a critical mass of how many polls
you can do before it's super bolshit annoying and gets old.
And you just have been killing good bosses that I
think are pretty well designed and they've never reached that point, right,
And it's possible by the time you get to Muggsy

(41:12):
you might not reach that point then either, And then
then it's just gonna be a whole rate of like
an ideal poll count for you or most people.

Speaker 1 (41:19):
You're not gonna like one armbandit. I think that is
gonna raise for a lot of guilds.

Speaker 3 (41:25):
I hope not. Yeah, so far as that's whatever. It's
not the worst.

Speaker 1 (41:29):
Like the fight is very uh, at least in my guild,
is pretty unpopular, and maybe it's just because we have
been playing kind of bad on it, but like a
lot of just like randomly getting one shot by a
coin or a tornado rolling through you, uh, and like
you're getting gripped around and there's like a mechanic vomit
thing and you have to be baiting as well, like
you constantly have to be baiting coins, and having all

(41:51):
twenty people baiting is something where like if it's not
then it's going in a bad spot and things get ugly.
So I suspect that one's going to be more frushing
for people to progn then it's difficulty, would suggest, especially
because it also has the class stacking premium where Shadow
Priests are basically fifty percent more valuable than like any
other spec on that fight because they just nuke those

(42:13):
real assistants in a way that like, if you're not
playing with three shadow priests, you're gonna have to make
serious concessions to actually be able to kill those things
on time at least for another couple of weeks.

Speaker 2 (42:23):
Probably hopefully acts fast. Yeah, I mean I'm playing a range,
so I don't even know what's happening in that fight.
I'm gona be honest, I'm kind of just like hitting
stuff and dodging stuff and jumping out for a deba.
I don't even know what to have a coin mechanic give.

Speaker 1 (42:37):
Yeah, I mean, this might just be the whole This
is the worst poss ever. This is the worst poss ever.
You kill it. Okay, that was a pretty good thing
happening for me, But as of right now, it's it's
been some frustrating progression, and that with Sprocket that wasn't true.
With Sprocket progression, we were like, oh my god, rage
is over already. Okay, I can't wait for raid to
happen again.

Speaker 3 (42:54):
Are you are you using our straut? Yeah, okay, I
wonder because like we never really had to talk about
baiting things, just like kind of naturally got baited just
from like the way you move things. Like we didn't
talk about baits. They just happened. It was more so Melee,
like Melee hads to not be completely off to say.

Speaker 1 (43:10):
Yeah, Melee have to like always be in the middle
of the room side of the boss.

Speaker 3 (43:14):
Yeah, yeah, but I mean, if you tank the boss
a certain way, that's the only place you can be
I guess. But the h that boss is another one
where it's just like it's designed for the first people
who kill it are just gonna have way more fun
because there's so many options of when you can do
everything on that fight, and coming up with the right
one just adds a lot of Like you guys never

(43:35):
think about that once. You're just like, righty, we know
the order, right, we just knew the order, But like
the whole process of finding the order is really really fun.

Speaker 1 (43:41):
Yeah, I mean it's kind of interesting to like understand, like, Okay,
we're doing the Harvest ad set first so that we
can get it out of the way and like line
it up with some CDs or whatever, right, and like
that's the unseseeable set and then you know, these things
line up here or whatever for fun.

Speaker 3 (43:54):
Do you know why we chose the order we did?
Like logically, did I Ever?

Speaker 1 (43:59):
Well, the first one spawns the easiest coil to click
and clear ground with, and then the last two spawn
the last coils that are more annoying, and every time
the boss phases that activates every coil.

Speaker 3 (44:10):
Right, yeah, exactly. So that's like the main the main
logic is like why would you ever do more coils
because they're the only ones of every order that continue
to do mechanical rest of the fight. Fun story, we
did this on PTR. The reason why you have to
delay until at least the sixth one is down is
the boss and Mythic actually puts them in the middle
of the room. So if you get to like the
last phase, if you haven't done shot and Bomb and

(44:33):
shot and flame yet, he just like smacks them in
the middle, and it's like super annoying to play around.
So like that's actually why you had to delay. And
we actually considered, if we had more damage, would have
moved our thing forward to like make sure we could
at least place them and like hopefully skip like Coin
and Bomb, which is like obviously the worst one, but yeah,
and then the other ones were just like when they
lined up with CDs, I guess.

Speaker 1 (44:55):
Yeah, it's that side of the fight's kind of fun,
and I like, I don't know, I've been enjoying playing
it as well, but like, uh, it's one of those
bosses where it's just like, oh somebody's dad, Oh somebody's dad,
and that's like frustrating. I don't know, hopefully that's just
a week, you know, maybe we had ten or twenty
bad bulls or whatever. So people will walk in.

Speaker 3 (45:19):
On the topic of like continuing to nerve if you
think Muggsy is something that should be near because like Muggsy, yeah,
we killed at one hundred and fifty, but like we
have the ability to run five months and two warlocks
and three mages, and like a lot of people aren't
gonna be able to do that, and like there is
you need a certain amount of classes that can go
into the cages to be able to do that consistently

(45:41):
and to have some other classes do it. It requires
almost frame perfect grips and rescues to get people not
stuck in jails for a long time. So I think
I think Blizzard kind of only has one thing they
can do. I think, like almost immediately they need to
change that fight to when you kill the goons, the
knockback happens, and just like on Heroic, it breaks the walls.

(46:05):
I think it has to happen because other than that,
the comp requirement is so extreme that people are going
to get to a boss that wouldn't be unfair for
them with the right comp but it's completely unreasonable to
expect that they do.

Speaker 1 (46:17):
Yeah, I think I agree with you on that because
I don't think it changes too much to do that really,
Like it just means that you don't have to do
all this nonsense.

Speaker 3 (46:27):
Yeah, no, you would just make sure you would make
sure the knockback happens where it's not and you can
kill them way faster to get them out of the way, right,
make sure that everyone gets knocked back the same direction
so you don't break too many walls, so you still
have the ability to like shoot the things through it.
Because like I think the intended idea for Muggsy is
people randomly get picked it can't pick heelers, and you're

(46:49):
just supposed to stay in there and like kill it
efficiently enough to where you can just get let out
by the icicles later or in the last phase you
can get let out by the hot mess. But that's like,
so that was completely not viable for us to do that.
It required porting classes for consistency. But as you guys
gain way more damage and gear, like, maybe maybe it's

(47:13):
okay to actually just have people afk and the jails
after they kill that ad until whenever. Maybe maybe that's
also true. I'm not sure. It just sounds really bad.
It sounds like really bad.

Speaker 2 (47:23):
That I am not looking forward to Muggsy after all
of this talk about it. I was just talking about
how good it is, and with how one Armed, Banded
and Muggsy are sounding, maybe maybe maybe it's.

Speaker 3 (47:34):
Not going to be that great. It's it's too much
healing too like that that's a fight where like in
its current form, I think I think it's even by
really good guilds. I think it might be like unhealable.
It's just too much damage at the end.

Speaker 1 (47:47):
That's great, Yeah, I mean the three percent healing buff
is definitely if the three percent damage and healing is
going to be very nice for that spot and the
extra gear and stuff. But yeah, I'm I don't know.
I would say, don't don't let Muggy and Armed talk
get you two down, because I think there's a good
chance to help us on the way for at least Muggsy.
I think I would be surprised if they don't nef

(48:08):
that soon. And then band it.

Speaker 3 (48:09):
I don't know.

Speaker 1 (48:10):
Band It might just be my take, not the U
that might not actually be how most people experience it,
and that might not even be how I remember it
in a week's time. Just as of right now, that's
how I'm feeling about that fight.

Speaker 2 (48:22):
Yeah, it is something that I'm seeing more of tonight.
Like we did get a good amount of poles and abandoned,
but we're nuwing that. One of my guilties actually said
it the best. Like, so my guild was talking about
the difficulty cure. You know, some of the readers are
the ones who are kind of like eu Jones, where
they want like Seppulcher difficulty if they want shifting of
polls on a lot of bosses, and then uh, one

(48:43):
of them was fair.

Speaker 1 (48:43):
I don't want seer difficulty every tier, but.

Speaker 3 (48:45):
I okay, but I mean you did say Sepulcher was
whatever your preferred.

Speaker 1 (48:49):
Personally, But like that's like a guilty pleasure.

Speaker 3 (48:51):
It's like I want to yeah, yeah, that's fair. You know,
it's completely fair. Yeah yeah, but uh yeah.

Speaker 2 (48:56):
So one of my guilties said it the best because
I felt that way too. He was saying, how like
it is care of these bosses don't take more than
a hundred poles as long as they're fun and like
so far of me have been fun, and I like,
I actually completely agree with that, Like, as long as
they can just continue to make these fights fun and
where you can actually feel the entire progression of the fight,

(49:17):
then I think it's a good boss because we've just
had too many bosses that were either all right, you
one shot them and they don't really do a whole lot,
or you're stuck at them for three hundred plus polls,
And that's been like literally the past since Yeah, since
like Sylvans, it's just a bunch of bosses that kind
of fell over and then you get to tingdrel or

(49:38):
for Rock or a silken cord ovin acts, et cetera.
It just doesn't feel good when it's.

Speaker 3 (49:44):
Like that, Yeah, this raid, this Rain's gonna feel good
in that way. Although I do think the whole like
next ray is gonna be a super hard thing, is uh.
I think you can bet on on that, Like the
here's what Like, I mean, I made the take before
this that most of Blizzard's changes, as far as boss's
raids being easier, harder or whatever, is like pretty reactive,

(50:07):
and like this raid, no matter how they got there,
kind of proves that, right, Like last raid, bosses three
and four were too easy. This raid, bosses three and
four were like way harder, and they even mentioned in
interviews like part of the issue brew Twister was sickran
and ration in so okay, so they did that that
that probably too.

Speaker 1 (50:25):
Much, but they certainly tried to a pretty good spot.

Speaker 3 (50:28):
Now yeah, yeah, but like further race for example, that
was clearly an intention, okay, and then bosses five through eight,
the last four bosses in Narabar Palace were all harder
than the last four bosses of this raid, right, so
you could say that was maybe who knows if that
was on purpose, especially with the Gallywicks, but like that
was all that was true with every single one of

(50:49):
those fights. So like kind of like a snapback from
where we were. So the next raid, I don't know
if it's going to be boss by boss the same.
But they literally released a race to world first, like
like historical video they had made and they and they
used it as marketing materials to be like, you guys

(51:09):
should really watch the race this time, like really pumping
up Galliwicks, which I mean probably could have worked if
the boss was harder. I think there was a lot
of cool stuff about the boss, but like I think
they are massively missed out by like pumping up the
last boss so much then there was just no viewership
for it. That doesn't make when you market something that's
not what you want to happen, right, Uh. I think

(51:30):
next raid, if I could bet anything, I would bet
the next the end boss of the next raid is
going to be absolutely crazy.

Speaker 1 (51:37):
Yeah, Like there are also that are randomly hard, right,
like Halundrous or whatever, where you don't know in advance
they're gonna be hard in Pogger's to watch, but like
the end boss is always the one that has all
that expectation on its shoulders, right, Yeah.

Speaker 3 (51:51):
The next boss is going to be If they're gonna
miss on the next boss, it's gonna be it being
absolutely unbelievably hard, rather than the opposite that's probably happened.

Speaker 1 (52:03):
I think again, Like if that happens for the race
to World first, it's kind of fine, right if it's
like a five day end boss instead of a three
day end boss for the race. Okay, like that might
even be good for the race to World first. It's
just the you know, like Dorky said, right like that
we're kind of then putting our trust in them to
actually nerf in appropriately and swiftly for everybody else. And
if they fail to do that.

Speaker 3 (52:23):
Then, I mean, how many examples have there been of
them nerfing an unbelievably difficult boss to correct levels for
the people that are getting to it in enough time? Right,
maybe it's frocking to six right, Yeah, maybe this tier
exactly like, but before this tier, I feel like that's
something that basically almost never happens. Yeah, this doesn't seem
that way, So like, maybe maybe they can commit to

(52:44):
doing that if they want it to be uh way
harder for the race.

Speaker 2 (52:49):
Well, one thing I will say about this raid in
particular is they've done a really good job at making
the fights nervable by gear and the raid buff because
you know, we've talked about this in previous years. We
talked about last year Silvin Court, it didn't matter if
your guild had infinite fucking gear. You just still had
to do the dance, you still had to nova movement,

(53:09):
and people were still spending hundreds of polls probably bat
boss fight. But so far it seems like these fights aren't.

Speaker 3 (53:19):
Like that.

Speaker 2 (53:19):
They are of a type of fights that will just
get a lot easier with a ton of gear, So
I will say, like, that's one huge plus Blizzard has done.
But at the same time, I am also very worried
about next year. I mean I get it too, Like
I understand why Blizzard cares so much about a race
war first, or like why there's so many complainers about

(53:41):
this raid because I kind of like looked at the
numbers and I kind of came to the realization that
there are just a lot more people who watch the
race than people who actually do mific rate.

Speaker 3 (53:54):
Yeah, and that is by far. Yeah, like there's there's
I'll be willing to say there's like tens of thousands
of people more that watch the race than are people
who are doing the raid and then also watching.

Speaker 2 (54:07):
Yeah, because I was looking at some of the numbers
and like last year, if there was only like less
than two thousand guilds that have got to Silken Court,
so compared that number to the Race of War First viewership,
which is like you know, in the hundreds of thousands.
It's not even remotely close, which is why there's just
such a vocal group of people who are like, oh,

(54:28):
like this raid was such a fucking disappointment, YadA YadA yah.
But the problem is, like these are not the people
playing the game, and it just like fucking sucks for
people who play the game, Like for people like me,
I'm like out here MYDFIC rating. I want the Raid
to continue being fun. I found this tier to be great,
and everyone's just saying this tier sucks, and I'm like,
what the fuck?

Speaker 3 (54:46):
Man, Like, I'm having a good time. Just it is,
but it is those people, like I mean, if you
think about it, it's all logical. They get like what
they really care about is they want to see like
two guilds going head to head on the last post,
and that hasn't happened and in two raids, so they're like,
I'm looking forward to this, Like, bro, this Splits shit
has been annoying, but man like we're about to fucking
this is about to be the shit, Like both these

(55:08):
girls are killing Muggsy. This is about to get real
and then it's just over. And every every bit of
Splits that they watched and went through is just like
it wasn't even worth it. So their their disappointment makes sense,
and the reason why they always wanted to be super
Hard is because the downside of it being super hard
is it's going to take a long time for you
to kill that boss. But they don't have that downside
because they're not playing yet. They want to watch for stuffing.

(55:29):
Yeah exactly.

Speaker 2 (55:30):
Yeah, it's actually like only fags, right, It's like nobody
wants to play hardcore a wow, but like everyone wants
to watch these guys, like because it's it's exciting, you know,
like it's a big event.

Speaker 3 (55:38):
And then I totally get it.

Speaker 1 (55:40):
What do you guys think about Heroic Week? Uh? Now
that we had a tier with it and a tier
without it.

Speaker 3 (55:46):
Uh so this is purely just race world first, per second. No, No,
Heroic Week is terrible for the race like it is.
The class balance is so much worse. The boss tuning
is so much worse. I mean just and it's not
like you have to be like, oh well, it's just
like random that that's happened. Like no, they get like
an entire week to see Heroic and then afterwards you
can still make changes. Turns out you're gonna make a

(56:07):
lot better educated decisions from Blizzard part as to like
what's too good, what's not? How much damage are people
actually doing this patch? They don't know and the like
abridged heroqu week we do during Mythic, they can't make
changes after that because we already like geared our characters
and shits like that. They're like, really, I think just
basically they just need more information. And I'm not saying
that it's because they're really bad at their jobs. It's
just like, clearly, balancing World of Warcraft is an incredibly

(56:30):
hard thing to do, and they just need more information. Also,
splits during the race. This is just a race specific thing.
Turbo kills viewership, like it annihilates viewership. People don't know
when to tune in. My dad told me about that
after the race. He's like, yeah, I found a really
confusing when to tune in this time. And I'm like, yeah,
because it because it is confusing, right, It's not like
you're doing anything wrong, it's just like no one really

(56:51):
knows and that can make people tune out. As far
as the rest of the game, I think most people
benefit from like tuning and stuff and not waiting until
the race is over to get like proper class tuning
and have bosses be easy. But like, I don't think
that if it's a lot of people because they can
just like nerve the bosses before they get to them,
like they have the bad boss tuning is like something
that the race experiences. Uh, And I don't think people

(57:14):
want to wait a week for Mythic Plus. I also
think that. I think, yeah, there was a but then
there's also like can you mix the two together, Like
there's a week when the raid, when the patch first
comes out that feels like there's nothing going on. I
know we talked about before that. Like the reason that
is is because they don't want people to feel like
they have to rush through the story to you know,

(57:34):
like get in start the gearing fomo right away, and
then like they miss all that stuff. Like that week
makes sense for the probably the majority of WHILD players
that are not often represented, but like for us, it
just feels like that week doesn't make any sense. There's
like nothing to do, so like maybe you could throw
in some Mythic plus or some heroic or normal or
something in that week right to kind of like give
you both. I'm not sure that's my take on it.

Speaker 1 (57:55):
Yeah, I think just let's just do Heroic week and
let's just let m plus also happened. Then like there's
just no there's no huge problem anymore with M plus gear.
Like imagine if you could just do plus tens during
Heroic Week, what would you do. You'd do plus tens
and then you'd you'd probably be fine, right, Like, sure

(58:17):
you'd get some high hero gear. Maybe you don't drop
the Roune crests or guilded crest yet that week something
like that, Like you still leave those. You still need
gear from Raid though you knew the RAID gear like
the mythic plus gears and is good they got They
made sure that was the case. Pas, Yeah, right, like
it genuinely wouldn't if there was a Heroic Week and
you could do plus tens, like, it wouldn't invalidate the RAID.
They've made RAID rewards better, you know than it was

(58:38):
when I guess that was a concern. I think that
you could do that and we could fix that downside
and then you could still have the upside of Heroic
Week for the tuning in the race, because it's not
like Heroic Week griefs normal guilds at all. Because the
only guilds that are affected by the difference between a
Heroic Week and a Mythic Week are guilds that would
consider going into Mythic on week one, which is not

(58:58):
a lot of guilds. There's not a lot of gills
that are doing Mythic week one besides maybe first Boss
or something like that. If you are a guilt you know,
like an AotC guild, and you decide after six out
of eight Heroic to go do Mythic Vaccine instead, sure
that won't be an option for you week one, But
like it's other than that. It's it's just the M
plus thing that griefs a lot of players and there's

(59:19):
just no need to because it doesn't do anything worthwhile.
So that's my take. Let's just do her a week
and let's just let's just give the M plus gear
that week as well, and it'll be fine.

Speaker 3 (59:29):
I think, Yeah, same take. I've heard.

Speaker 2 (59:33):
AotC guilds that have complained about like how having mplus
early kind of like you know, validates RAID, but I
don't agree with it. Yeah, I mean, I do think, like, regardless,
they do need to have M plus coming out at
the same time because can you guys imagine this patch
if there was that whole week of nothing to do

(59:55):
and then another week of like M plus not being out,
Holy Yeah, well, complain would go crazy.

Speaker 1 (01:00:01):
Especially because you could get hero gear from Delves and
not from Keys.

Speaker 3 (01:00:05):
Also, especially because there's no reason for Mythic Plus to
not release with Hero Grade like that. It's just like
even before they did simultaneous raids, it never like for
many years it did not make sense to delay Mythic Plus.
That was like a I think, just an error.

Speaker 1 (01:00:21):
Yeah, I think the dorky is rather the fear is
like if you're an AotC guild and it's easier to
get hero gear from Keys than from the raid, is
that like a prop? But like that's already true this week, right,
that's already true on week one Mythic where and plus
is fully out the whole way, and Heroic Grade is
out and you could do either one. Which are you

(01:00:42):
gonna do? Like that that decision calculus doesn't change at
all based on whether Mythic is out that week or not.
That it literally is irrelevant to that decision.

Speaker 3 (01:00:50):
Yeah, Mythic Plus doesn't hurt splits at all because like
the way you do Mythic Plus and that Heroic Week
is you do all your splits, you'd find out your
main and then yeah, you would farm Mythic plus on
your main But that's no different than what it is now.
It's the same thing. It would just be getting more
chores out of the way before Mythic, right.

Speaker 1 (01:01:03):
And then Mythic. You'd probably still see like two days
of splits on week one Mythics something like that. Like
I don't want to pretend it wouldn't happen, but it
would probably be like one and a half to two
days instead of four and a half days or however
many it.

Speaker 3 (01:01:14):
Was this year. And also you'd be sending your crest
a lot earlier too, And like one thing that was
weird about this rate is like we didn't spend our
crest until the second reset. We didn't we didn't craft
on a lot of people until the second reset, until.

Speaker 1 (01:01:26):
The day before they give you an extra spart to
made all those decisions bad.

Speaker 3 (01:01:29):
Yeah, yeah, But like think about like a Blizzard person's,
a Blizzard man's uh process of like tuning these bosses.
They're looking at how much damage you can do, and
they have no clue because at any given time they're
looking like, Okay, this is how much damage they do.
Oh they haven't sent crests, Oh they haven't crafted how
much damage you get from that? Who knows, Like genuinely,
no one knows. We don't know, right, It's just like

(01:01:50):
you just get it and then you kind of see
you're like approximating how much damage you gained. But like
it's it makes it harder, so much harder for them
to do their jobs by doing.

Speaker 2 (01:01:58):
It the way they're doing it now, Yeah, what about this,
By the way, I've heard this before, I don't know
if there's any downside to it. What if there was
no mythic rate until one month.

Speaker 1 (01:02:08):
After and I think that would be too long.

Speaker 2 (01:02:13):
Well, so like that way, you know, like like everyone
would just be like fully hero and then you can
just like do mythic raiate at that level and then you.

Speaker 3 (01:02:23):
Start that's like it's like a final thing. It's it's
going along the lines of stuff people suggested before where
it's like mythic is one difficulty, it's never nerved, and
then you go.

Speaker 2 (01:02:33):
In with a well no, I mean you would you
would still like you would still be getting gears, just
like there would be a myth track comes out on
mythic release and then you would have like an entire
month of like being able to properly tuned classes understand
like how classes work on these fights, and uh, you know,
just like not have to worry about splits.

Speaker 3 (01:02:53):
Like everyone's kind of well.

Speaker 2 (01:02:54):
I mean, there was probably still be splits, but you
would be able to acquire all.

Speaker 3 (01:02:58):
Of what you need. There's one main reason this would
never happen, you know it is it's for the same
reason that AWC and md I were just insanely too
fast last patch. Because like all the like event stuff
that advertises the game for them, it makes the most
sense for that to happen as close to the beginning
as of the patch as possible, So when people are

(01:03:19):
watching it and it's being advertised to them, they're like, oh,
I can log in and play this game right now,
where if it was a month after it came out,
they'd be like, I already kind of missed the season start, right,
so I'm not going to play this thing. I would
say it's probably just the pure proximity of this big
viewership event happening late into the patch to where people
wouldn't really realistically be able to start it. I feel like,
would make that never happen.

Speaker 2 (01:03:39):
Well, wouldn't there also be like a heroic race, Now
that I think about it, that would be kind of
cool too, Not.

Speaker 1 (01:03:44):
Really, I don't think.

Speaker 3 (01:03:45):
Uh maybe maybe for like a couple hours or something like,
you know, I think I think we'd be pretty good there.

Speaker 1 (01:03:53):
I guess probably Echo would do their their NA characters
and competing.

Speaker 3 (01:03:58):
Yeah. Yeah, sure out they did that. That was that
was a time Oh good uh good bit. But yeah,
I mean that does sound pretty cool. Yeah, so, I
mean he.

Speaker 1 (01:04:10):
Would have been pretty different to be a meaningfully interesting
race spot, though, I think.

Speaker 3 (01:04:14):
Well, I mean we could also have too.

Speaker 2 (01:04:15):
Yeah, we also have like Heroic be a little bit
more difficult, and then they just kind of because I mean,
like remember Sepulcher, Heroic was pretty hard, Like that would
be kind of a good target.

Speaker 1 (01:04:24):
I feel like Muggy and Galleriics are already like hard
enough for the average guilds on in aocc they're pretty
pretty beefy fights.

Speaker 3 (01:04:32):
Yeah.

Speaker 2 (01:04:34):
Okay, So about the m plus side of this season generals,
you probably played a bunch yourself.

Speaker 1 (01:04:39):
Right, Yeah, I've done a bunch of keys. I don't know,
I'm having fun on them. I'm having having a good time.
I have only tanked keys really so far. I've done
a couple of deeps keys, but I like, I like
the dungeons. They've been nerfing them very rapidly in spots
that needed it. What's the difficulty Definitely easier.

Speaker 3 (01:05:01):
What's the lore of the season is it? Is it
like what we talked about before where they were just like,
we're gonna we've heard enough about dungeons or two are
We're just gonna make sure they're way easier. Is that basically?

Speaker 1 (01:05:10):
I think so, because I think during Week one they
basically took a key level off of everything because they
were like, whoop, it's still too hard. Okay, we're topping
a key level off of everything because they nerve like
damage and he like abbs by ten percent or something
in dungeons. So uh yeah. I think their goal is
pretends to be dramatically easier than they were in previous
seasons or than they were last season, and I think

(01:05:32):
they've succeeded, and I think it was a good thing
they did.

Speaker 2 (01:05:36):
I might be really say, but I think this might
be the best season in a very long time. It's
actually looking really good so far. I think a lot
of people have been having fun, like it's just a
fun season. I don't know, like the season has just
been good. Maybe it's just because of like a class
balance to the fact that you can kind of play
anything right now is just really good.

Speaker 1 (01:05:55):
Oh really.

Speaker 3 (01:05:57):
Yeah.

Speaker 2 (01:05:57):
I've always said that, like, wow, is super fun to play.
The problem is you can't play a game because you
know there's always shitty class balance or just whatever gate
Hepee reasons.

Speaker 3 (01:06:09):
But right now it feels really good.

Speaker 1 (01:06:11):
Dude.

Speaker 3 (01:06:11):
I just went to Radario to check how like diverse
the runs were, and there's just the biggest ad on Radari.
It's like my entire screen. That's crazy for a serial. Wow. Okay,
yeah I saw that too.

Speaker 1 (01:06:23):
We got to get them to sponsor us hang on.

Speaker 3 (01:06:25):
Yeah, yeah, is that a sale? Was wondering how how
like varied it was, because like when I was doing
the race, I'm just like, dude, fire Mage has to
be just completely absurd toucheons, But I wonder how true
that is on the on the leader boards here, it
looks like there's some non Mage groups. It's like a
Hunter Warrior rogue group that's doing pretty good.

Speaker 1 (01:06:48):
Yeah.

Speaker 3 (01:06:49):
Yeah, to be fair, it's early season, so.

Speaker 1 (01:06:51):
It always does like more diverse early season.

Speaker 3 (01:06:54):
Yeah.

Speaker 2 (01:06:55):
Yeah, we probably will see a whole lot more majors
as the season develops.

Speaker 3 (01:06:58):
Oh, DK is good, that's fat fascinating when was the last?
And moon Can that's okay. So like it seems like
Mooncin DK is a pretty good comp to go with Mage.
That's fascinating because moon Can and DK are both stinky
and rage Yeah, I play both rate a very the
worst fucking spect Yeah, they stink, they're like I mean,
I mean, they're obviously viable. It's just that like basically

(01:07:19):
every melee, but definitely DK is just like a ten
percent worst wind walker and uh, moon Can is I mean,
Mooncin is like an unplayable rate spec unless they fight
is entirely designed for their niche, which did exist this year.
But like they just have to choose between AE and
single target, and anytime that's the case as a class,
you're cooked by classes like Mage that are doing their

(01:07:42):
full single target on a boss and doing infinite cleaved
ads around them. You can't compete with that. So it's
just a fundamental class design issue with moon Can or
their single target talents aren't good enough when they actually
want to, or they they struggle with talents to find
a way to mix the single Tart and Aoi rather
than playing full Bernardio build.

Speaker 1 (01:07:59):
And this is why they can't buff them, right, Like
they're not easy to buff because if your class doesn't
have a niche like that and it's underperforming and Raid,
it gets buffed. But Moon Kidd and Unholy they can't
get buffed easily because then they'll become even more OP
and M plus right, so like, yeah, they have to
really think about how to buff them.

Speaker 3 (01:08:17):
And also the fact that wind Walker isn't good in
Mythic Plus is fascinating because wind Walker is unbelievably cracked
in Raid. They're they're by far the best melee and
they have a they're not good at Mythic Plus purely
due to target capping. That is that is like that
is insane, that that is the case. Like I cannot
remember a class ever being this good at in Like

(01:08:40):
if you were to make a Mythic Plus boss in Rade, right,
like you're basically like brood Twister, like wind Walker's okay,
like a little bit too high target count, but like
basically five target cleave on a boss all the time.
Like like that yeah, like Stone Legion Generals was like
the og like Mythic plus Boss you were just like
constantly awen group of things like wind Walker would top

(01:09:00):
on these fights. But in Mythic Plus, they're not good
enough because they can't hit twenty targets, right they I
think they're like almost they're almost like five target caps. Yeah,
which is a huge, huge, weird, huge weird problem. Also,
how do you guys feel about that? Not to take
away from Mythic plus me, but how do you guys
feel about like niches being back.

Speaker 1 (01:09:20):
I don't like what it's doing to like class stacking
in the raid.

Speaker 3 (01:09:24):
I think that is the direct result. Yeah, yeah, because
like dots are back like dots for the first time
since BFA. Dots are back straight up, and and that
is like clearly what happened to BFA. You stacked daughters
on on on fights that did that, Like execute, they
created fights. Executes always been here, but they created fights
where it mattered. Uh, I don't know, it just seems

(01:09:45):
really it's really different. It's like clearly an emphasis of THEIRS.

Speaker 2 (01:09:49):
I think it's one of those it has to feel good,
but it doesn't. It shouldn't be required, which is a
really hard line to.

Speaker 3 (01:09:57):
Cross.

Speaker 2 (01:09:57):
But yeah, I mean I also feel that with Gina's Like,
I don't really like how dependent this raid is on
specific damage profiles. And yeah, I mean the whole target
capping is a huge problem. I feel like tard caapping
has not once achieved the very goal they really need
to do away with target capping. It's gonna I can

(01:10:18):
already see you next week, assuming there's tuning happening going
really poorly for what's gonna happen to Raid and them
plus ancapped right exactly, Like they're not even vacuate in
them Plus and then they're just gonna get cut in half.
Misweaver Monks too, that's gonna get cut in half probably,

(01:10:41):
And then there's like fire Mage. Fire Mage needs to
get nerved. And then yet we have like Boomkins and
then Hooly decays.

Speaker 3 (01:10:47):
That are yeah, they can't, but they're gonna get buffed
if they make MOONCN and Blood decay or if they
make MOONCN and DPSDK worse because of Mythic Plus, they're
going to be the unplayable dogshit.

Speaker 1 (01:11:02):
That.

Speaker 3 (01:11:03):
Yeah, I mean, yeah, And like think about it, what
is the main difference between Raid and Mythic Plus. Like
in every Raid tier there are cleave bosses it's just
Mythic Plus increases the target count to far more than
you would ever have on like a hard rate fight.
So that's why it's so hard to balance between the two.
You know, Like back in the day, they used to
do changes for classes for years and it would affect

(01:11:25):
PvP and PvE even though it was only one of
the modes in which they were actually tuning it, and
it just was part of the game. And then eventually
what happens now and for many years now is when
they nerve something in PvE, it just doesn't affect PvP,
or if they make a PvP specific change, it doesn't
affect PVEE. You could almost look at Mythic Plus and
Raid like that in that they just if you remove

(01:11:46):
target capping, you're removing the thing that makes it different
to Raid and Mythic Plus. And I'm assuming target capping.
There's some other reasons, like maybe it's some performance thing,
like maybe if you're like everyone in the game is
not target cap then it's just like infinite events and lag,
and maybe that's like a thing that like, at least
for the pure gameplay side of things, I think not

(01:12:09):
having everyone just like soft targeted at twenty, which is
like pretty basic. Seems like it's a pretty big mistake
because clearly Mythic plus buols get that big.

Speaker 1 (01:12:19):
Okay, we gotta wrap up shortly as Dorky's raid is
about to begin, so let's do our Patreon question and
then depart as a time flies. But yeah, it's now
closing in on Dorkey's right time. So here's our Patreon
question this week comes from mcquack. It says a conversation
that popped up in my guild discord after I randomly
saw Scott on the Galliwicks Mythic Mountain town. What do

(01:12:42):
racor World first raiders do during the tier? After the
race is over? One person brought up, why even bother?
Because raiders are near Byss after one week of splits.
My thought was gear up buckets to make split smoother?
Or does it make money from sales to pay for
the next race? Really curious how it goes on all levels?

Speaker 3 (01:12:56):
Pod, thanks very miserable ask what.

Speaker 1 (01:13:00):
Yeah, there is a lot of you know, you want
every single character to be full full or close to
full Byss for next tier. It's gonna be a little
b less painful this year because we know dinars are
coming right, so you will be able to get the
two items you're least lucky on per character. But yeah,
like that's that, and sales are definitely a part of it.
Obviously Max will know the most as the race world

(01:13:22):
first person here.

Speaker 3 (01:13:24):
Yeah, so after some tiers like right now, I doubt
there's a lot of Mythic Plus sales because they made
Mythic Plus a lot easier. But on tiers where it
was harder, you made absolutely insane gold from being like
putting liquid in the title and selling like runs for
gold it would be I mean, I remember Shaq made

(01:13:45):
like one hundred million gold within I think it was
one or two weeks of either Vault or Avarice being out,
and they just they were just doing carries all day
for just an absurd amount of gold, like probably a
million a run or something like that split between them.
So that's one thing. So that's just that. Just to
generally simplify it, it's like, you definitely make gold, like

(01:14:07):
we're starting sales as soon as possible because you need
I mean, we've spent like roughly a billion gold this time,
so you need to make all that gold back, and
then it's just about gearing characters, So like not only
having geared characters to potentially gear in the new raid,
but for splits, Like all of our players have a
million characters, you need splits to go. Did you guys
watch one arm bandit on the first day before pugs

(01:14:27):
started getting more gear? Like that was hard. You want
that to be as easy as possible. That saves you
time that you could spend in Mythic. So basically all
of Farm is just doing a bunch of runs and
gearing a shitload of characters while also trying to make
our players not hate their lives, which is hard because
it's like, I mean, I know they're getting paid for it,
but it's like very repetitive and monotonous. I mean we

(01:14:48):
typically never read more than like two nights a week
for Farm. It's like two four or five hour raid nights.
It's not a ton, but it's a lot of total runs.
Like I wonder how many times we killed Queen Answerek
on Mythic. It's probably, I mean it's hundreds and hundreds
and hundreds of times. So yeah, it's just a lot
of it's just a lot of work. A lot of
players usually have another game they want to play, you know,

(01:15:11):
as much as we all love Wow uh, you know,
once you do the race, it's hard to be like
I want to push number one mythic plus because like
it all seems insignificant after the race. It's weird you
like do this big thing at the very beginning, and
then it's just like, well, I'm done with the thing,
you know, and you need to get your characters. But
a lot of times you put your passions into other
other things to keep sharp while maintaining your Wow characters.

(01:15:32):
So I'd say it's a healthy amount of break plus uh,
gearing up your stable of characters for next raid. Yeah.

Speaker 2 (01:15:40):
I'm friends with a lot of Liquid players, and what
I've learned is that they're all soulless.

Speaker 3 (01:15:46):
Yeah.

Speaker 2 (01:15:47):
Sure, It's funny because like it seems like like if
you used to have a lot of passion. I've noticed
for like, you know, just playing the game in general,
but like outside of the race, it seems like they're
just not too interested in really doing anything else. Like
I've tried getting these guys to do m plus you know,
I'll do like other shits.

Speaker 3 (01:16:03):
But.

Speaker 2 (01:16:05):
A lot of them really just they you know, do
ver chores in game and they're obviously play over games,
like a lot of them are actually playing Cataclassic, and
I'm sure a lot of them are like super hyped
for Mob Classic. I don't know what it is about
those versions of Wow Vvy like so much, but most
of them are playing that. And there's other games too,

(01:16:26):
like THD and Goop. If you're playing lost Ark and stuff.

Speaker 3 (01:16:29):
Yeah, I mean it's basically like you're mixing your hobby
and your passion and your job. Like at a certain point,
like if you wonder what paying our players does it,
I would say it never gets us a new player. Like,
no one's like I want to do the race because
I want to make money. You know, they're they're at
this point out of pure passion. It's the only way
you could get this good. But what it does do
is keep your players. Because when when you're in farm

(01:16:50):
and you're like, hm, I'm having to raid, I'm having
to like maintain fifteen characters for something I'm gonna do
five months from now. Maybe at some point when we're
doing five months from now, doesn't add up to that,
Like you need to make that deal seems sweeter and
paying them certainly helps, Like I bet our turnover in
Farm would be higher purely from just how annoying this
shit is and how annoying it's gotten. But you know

(01:17:12):
people will do it. Yeah, I mean then the getting
passion about other games really helps, right cause it's like, Okay,
if like the race was at the end of the patch,
I bet you would see a lot of people diving
into mythic. Plus I'm like doing all the like I
just want a game, you know, But like it's so
weird and almost anti climactic to have the entire five
month patch the thing that you care about the most

(01:17:34):
to happen immediately, cause it's just, you know, it's so
hard to ramp yourself up to care about anything else
when like the next time it happens is a new patch.
It's like you basically complete the patch, your speed running
completing the patch, and it's hard to get invested into
other parts of the game after you've done the thing,
you know. I think that a large part of it.

Speaker 1 (01:17:57):
Yeah, I mean, there's just you literally on the the
wow is all about like gearing up for the next
challenge and then doing it right. And you just do
all that in the first two weeks and then it's over.
So then you're kind of a shifting to gearing up
for the next challenge, which is next patch, right, so
you have all patch to prep for that, and.

Speaker 3 (01:18:13):
It's like difficulty, right Like like, so doing mythic bosses
as you go and farm and as you get more
and more gear becomes easier and easier. There's nothing in
the game that's even remotely comparable to how difficult a
like end boss, a non Gaaly Wicks end boss, or
a second to last boss normally is like that's that's
that's a level of like gameplay that you cannot reach

(01:18:34):
in this game in PVEE unless you're doing that. So
another thing is you like reach up to this point
you kill these bosses, then it's like, okay, if you
could repetitively get that feeling of like progressing super hard
bosses for a whole patch, maybe you would, but you can't,
right Like. The thing that you replaced with is Mythic Plus,
which can be challenging, but it's much more repetitive and
the what it's asking of you is not as much.
Uh So it's it's I think at least this is

(01:18:57):
how I felt when I played, like I I just
couldn't get into the game because it felt like it
wasn't satisfying what I needed from it. After the race
is over, so you feel empty and soulless, as he sang.

Speaker 1 (01:19:09):
All right, on that note, we are gonna be done
for this week. Thanks everybody for watching, and we'll see
you next week. Audios.

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Ep. 63 - Winning The Race to World First (Again)

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.css-14f5ked{margin:0;word-break:break-word;display:-webkit-box;-webkit-box-orient:vertical;box-orient:vertical;-webkit-line-clamp:2;overflow:hidden;}Ep. 63 - Winning The Race to World First (Again)