Ep. 65 - Addon Drama & Current State of 11.1 - The PoddyC

Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:00):
All right, welcome to episode sixty five of the POTTC.
Probably slightly shorter than episode sixty four of the Potty
C that was over four hour hours.

Speaker 2 (00:09):
I think, yeah, that was a banger. I'm surprised by
how well of episode. Dude.

Speaker 1 (00:13):
We definitely did miss a few things. I think the
biggest thing, which a bunch of comments correctly pointed out
about that episode was that there's kind of two different
things that you might mean when you say wowhead commentary,
because there are the people who go into the comments
under like an item or achievement and then put like
a guide in there for how to do it, and
those people are goaded.

Speaker 3 (00:31):
For sure subjectively helpful. Yeah, great people.

Speaker 2 (00:33):
I thought that's what I mentioned, you know, I mentioned that.

Speaker 1 (00:35):
Well, I thought, yes, maybe, but I don't listen to
you very much. Yeah, that's on the episode.

Speaker 3 (00:40):
I think I remember hearing that feedback, or maybe it
was in the uh the like pre episode maybe when
we were talking about the thing. But I do remember
someone bringing it up that there are some like very
benevolent wowhead cow wow like wowdhead commenters that are just
detely good people.

Speaker 2 (00:58):
I was seeing how they're like actually really good wildhood comments.
But obviously that's not who we were specifically talking about.
We were talking about the people on like whatever there's
a new pole saying like oh, buffs and nurse two classes,
and we just have that one idiot saying where's my
hunter buff?

Speaker 3 (01:14):
Yeah, there was a couple others. I man, I really
wish I would have remembered them. But there was a
couple of times where people were like, you totally forgot
about this person, and then they briefly described them and
I'm like, oh my god, you're so right. Like that
was like, I mean, we did a four hour thing,
so we covered a lot of wow archetypes, but there
were a few, and I wish I would have remembered

(01:34):
them that were like so dead on, like holy shit,
this is you see this person all the time?

Speaker 2 (01:38):
I mean, Oh, the one I wanted to include was
Boosty and Boosted.

Speaker 1 (01:42):
Yeah or boost I mentioned it during the like second
half of bar record or whatever, but then we forgot
to do it at the end.

Speaker 3 (01:48):
Well let's do it now, all right, Well, what do
you mean the Boosty and the booster? What are your
general thoughts on a dorky? So you just mean the
person that is getting boosted in content versus the person
that does the boosting.

Speaker 2 (02:00):
Yeah, it's got to be negative, right how so well,
because you know nobody likes boosters, like they for the
most part are bad for the game. Yeah, like it
invalidates the achievements of people who actually earned say title

(02:21):
or Cutting Edge or whatever it is or Cutting Edge meults.

Speaker 1 (02:25):
I think on the Adam plus side it's worse because
like you're taking away a title slot from somebody.

Speaker 3 (02:31):
Yeah, if you're boosting it, Yeah, that makes sense. I
was thinking more raid boosting, and I think it's mostly harmless.
Like the person that hates the RAID boost is the
person who gets like Cutting Edge Hall of Fame boosted.
That person is harmless like that, like whether someone has
that and it doesn't change anything, right, they're not taking
that spot from anyone. Why do you care if someone

(02:53):
else acquired gold and then got that, right. But I
think it's the person that maybe like claims that they
did it, like hey I achieved this, but they're just
lying about it. I can tell you from this has
happened before with us. We've done carries, and like someone
will reach out to me and be like, hey, this
guy like said they were in liquid, could you confirm that?

(03:17):
And I'm like, no, obviously they weren't. And then I
don't know how many times that's happened, and someone didn't
even bother reaching out to me because that's a very
obviously public and like researchable thing whether that was true
or not. But it's really rare. Like I think most
people who buy things get things. I guess they're the
boost e, right, the boosty they are, uh, they don't
have the time, but they want the achievement and they

(03:39):
pay for it. And I don't know if that is
negative to anyone really, unless I guess they're really obnoxious
about it, which I think is again something new is
pretty memorable, but I think pretty rare.

Speaker 2 (03:53):
Yeah, definitely rare. I mean so for M plus side,
it's also if you have boosted fourteens, you can probably
get into fourteen keys easier, and maybe you don't really
belong in fourteens, So that is a problem to a
lot of players because that sounds really bad.

Speaker 1 (04:09):
Yeah, on the right side, right, Like, even just getting
boosted to AotC and then using like AotC is kind
of hard. Getting boosted to AotC costs like five hundred
K or something, right, and then maybe less now right,
Like that price goes down over time pretty rapidly and
then you you know, get invited. But on the other hand,
the people who are requiring AotC for invites to stuff

(04:29):
that shouldn't require AotC are also not great, right, So
it's like, I don't know, it's kind of there's ickiness
on a lot of sides with the whole loosting thing.

Speaker 3 (04:40):
The booster goaded, Yeah, right, of course, of course I would.
I feel pretty strongly that the people doing booster are
excellent people.

Speaker 1 (04:51):
Yeah. I mean on a kind of big picture level,
the idea of an MMO where you can like play
the auction house and then use your gold that you
earned from that to you know, pay a group of
adventures to slay a dragon for you is kind of
you know that kind of that's kind of awesome, right,
That's kind of like the the heart of a you know,

(05:14):
thriving MMO economy that definitely a lot.

Speaker 3 (05:16):
Of never be removed. Yeah, right, Like that's like people
are like, well, boosting should be banned. It's like it's
kind of the fundamental concept of like momos is why
boosting exists, you can do that now. A lot of
people will be cynical and be like, well, no, one's
actually just playing the auction now, so just like buying
WOWD token or buying gold and a lot of the
times you're right. Yeah, And before there was a wolwd token,
they were buying it just as much, just illicitly. That's

(05:39):
that's a real thing, you know. That sucks. No one
else like like literally paid a winning in that case
is a little a little tough.

Speaker 1 (05:45):
Yeah, And even people who do boosting often would often
we do boosting because there are a lot of gold
costs associated with the content we do, right, and would
we prefer a world where those costs didn't exist and
then we didn't do boosting.

Speaker 2 (05:58):
Yeah, patches so bad, by the way, the terisa hitting
so hard. Like consumables are so goddamn expensive there is
it's awful. Man, Like I don't even know how I
play on Plus nowadays. I swear to god, consumables are
so ridiculous expensive gems and in chants all that stuff.
It's out of control. I need to start boosting my
ass off. People are help.

Speaker 3 (06:16):
The thing is is it like repeats itself, right, Like
if you okay. So someone in my chat asked me, like,
what would you do if boosting was banned? And I
was like, I don't really know what else we would do,
Like that's our main that's like the most efficient way
to get gold. You'd have to find a new way
to get gold. But also would completely change the market
if boosting wasn't in the game. That would remove so
much gold that like things, everything would cost so much less.

Speaker 1 (06:40):
Yeah, like a huge because of how expensive the boosts are,
even though they're rare, right, Like a boosting transaction is
a lot rare than anything else in the game. It's
for like ten million gold sometimes, right, Like if you're
buying a cutting edge, especially early in a patch, right,
you're paying gold caps, right, And that is just such
a high chunk of where gold's value comes from for

(07:00):
a lot of players is they're either they're involved on
one side or the other of a boosting exchange. So yeah,
I would, it would. It would change the economy in
a big way.

Speaker 3 (07:09):
It costs us about one billion gold in fees every
time we do erase by paying helpers buying bue's, which
there's almost none of this time. It's like almost that right,
so every five months, we are just putting a billion
gold into the hands of just regular Wow raiders that

(07:32):
help us in our runs, and that would be almost
completely removed or those numbers would be significantly less. And
then that's how markets work, right, They all like adjust
off of that.

Speaker 4 (07:45):
You know.

Speaker 2 (07:45):
I will say one thing I've been really hating about
how people use their gold recently is there's a lot
of item buying in raids. It causes this whole culture
of every single person just need rolling on every single
possible item, and whenever they win it, they're just trying
to sell it like curios and raid or house of cards. Right,
if you managed to loot a house of cards, you'll

(08:07):
get like ten people whispering you can I buy that?
Can I buy that? Can I buy that? So it
incentivizes players to not ever pass on loot they don't need.
Like everyone's just needing on loot that they don't even need.
And it's really annoying because everyone's just trying to make
gold out of it. Which makes sense, but like this
wasn't the thing before.

Speaker 3 (08:23):
Well was this? Uh So I actually am trying to
figure out how this works. So if you have a
house of Cards on heroic eye level, at least how
it's supposed to work I think is you cannot roll
need and win on House of Cards that drops on
heroic correct.

Speaker 1 (08:40):
Unless it drops with a turt, which is funny.

Speaker 3 (08:43):
Less it drops of the terre shary Okay, interesting. So
so basically the people that are doing that are people
who either need House of Cards or are loot eligible
for it, but don't actually want the drinket yeah exactly,
or like say on it just to sell to people, yeah,
or say like you know, like you're a misweaver main,
but you can roll on agility staff and you'll just
do it because like you can sell it off, so
you're just gonna need on it anyways. So I think

(09:04):
how that works is I believe you can roll need
on all things that are on your offspec or not
your main lootspeck, but you will not win that item
over someone who is rolling for it on their mains.

Speaker 2 (09:15):
Well, you can sell your lootspeck.

Speaker 1 (09:17):
Yeah, you can go into a boss and you can
be like, oh yeah, this one drops the aggy staff.
I'm loutpec wind.

Speaker 3 (09:21):
Yeah that's true.

Speaker 2 (09:22):
And there's trikets yeah, because like as a tank you know, like,
so there's only two tanks in RAID, right, but you
have all these bunch of idiots that like will put
set their loot to tank lootspeck for a certain boss
bed drops tank trinkets because that makes you loot eligible.
And if they managed to win Baloo, like you're not
gonna need it, but you'll take it anyways to try
to sell it off.

Speaker 3 (09:43):
That's yeah, go ahead, dre.

Speaker 1 (09:45):
Well, It's just like there's a hierarchy of needs as well, right,
Like if you roll on a tank drinkket, that's thirty
routine crests for you, right, Like say a Galliwic Heroic
tank trinket. You haven't upgraded all those in that slot,
and that tank trinket then represents like saving crest for you?
Is your need greater?

Speaker 3 (10:00):
It?

Speaker 1 (10:00):
Like, should you be allowed to roll need on that
against somebody who uh is actually a tank and wants
to use that thing for m plus or whatever or
for raid? Right, Like it's a good tank drinket. Same
with Like I saw, there was a big discussion on
Reddit about LFR. People like mythic Rader goes into LFR
and rolls need on an item because they want the
mog and it's like, is that is that sketchy? Is

(10:24):
that allowed? You know there's a transmog button, but the
transmog button's lower priyo, Like, why is why is an
LFR Why is a mythic rader coming into LFR? Why
is their want for an item less valid than an
LFR rader. They if they couldn't roll need on it,
they just wouldn't do the LFR right. They would just
come back and get it when it's legacy content. So
no matter what happens, you're going to be in an
LFR raid with twenty four other people who want something

(10:46):
out of LFR right. Otherwise they wouldn't be there. But
it's I don't know, Like there's a lot of ways
that the current loot system make people feel bad. I
actually think personal loot for everything except for mythic made
this better because personal loot removed that element of you
seeing the item and deciding what to roll need on it,
and then seeing that another person decided to roll need

(11:06):
on it right. Instead, it would just put it in
somebody's bags, and then you'd have the thing of like, oh,
this person's not willing to trade it or whatever. But
like it's less it would feel less icky to get away.

Speaker 3 (11:15):
It feels like even though I believe it's the same thing,
it is pretty much the same thing. Like if you're
if you're in a run, let's just use the trinket
example House of Cards, or if you went tank loops
back to get the tank trinket and you roll need
on it. I believe in personally that exact same thing happens,
that other person ends up with the tank trink it,
and the.

Speaker 2 (11:34):
Game just does it for you.

Speaker 3 (11:35):
Yeah, the game is yeah for you.

Speaker 1 (11:36):
There's a couple of different things. First of all, with
the current system, you have to be willing to click needs.
So if you're a good actor, you kind of get punished.
You don't get as much gold because you if you're
somebody like me, I feel bad about rolling need on
something that I don't need, so I don't roll need
on it even though I could. Maybe you know, my
expected value is like if I click this need button,
maybe I'm getting fifty thousand gold or something off of
the chance that I win it and sell it right like,

(11:57):
So that's I think a downside. It does also have
the weird thing, like you said, Max of being loot eligible, right,
Like I can't roll need on this house of cards
that I don't need because I have one, whereas I
could if I was just on a character that didn't
have one. I actually kind of actively don't want to
get this item on this character if I'm trying to
just make gold from doing heroic runs and selling the

(12:17):
items so that I can keep rolling need on it, right,
which is kind of funny, like think about it. I
don't know, it is definitely icky, yeah.

Speaker 2 (12:27):
Because like historically LOUT culture of the way it worked
is all right, you know, if you need its own thing,
then you would need roll need. If you just like
wanted it for whatever reason, then you would put greed.
And that's how it's always worked, right for like I
don't even how long it's been, but it's been like
a long time where that's the culture of how you're
supposed to do LOUT. But it's just like nowadays, there's

(12:47):
no point in ever doing values. It's you need whatever
you can and then you try to pawn it off
or you're using it for transmog or you know whatever
other purposes.

Speaker 3 (12:56):
Well how do they how do they fix it?

Speaker 2 (12:58):
Because like culture thing, but like people it's like the
players have to figure it out themselves.

Speaker 1 (13:06):
Yeah, but then.

Speaker 3 (13:07):
That's that's like saying like Blizzard, like old Blizzard should
just like people should just know not to explain. It's like, well,
if Blizzard doesn't punish certain exploits for many years, people
are gonna learn to they can skirt the rules. So
it's the same thing with looting, like like, yeah, the
right thing to do. You know, there's gonna be enough
people that don't do that, and then other people are like,
well shit, if other people are doing it, I'm gonna
do it. You replay that a thousand times, a million times,
and then you end up at a point where you

(13:29):
people will go as far as the like literal restrictions
allow you to go. So it is it does kind
of have to be police on their side or fixed.
And I all that I was. I was thinking about
it when you guys first started talking about I don't
think you can because like the mistweaver staff thing, the
misweaver Agi staff thing like that, that is something that
someone could realistically do. I want to be this loots

(13:49):
back for this boss because I want things for this
like that. That makes sense, but it just feels bad.
Like that.

Speaker 2 (13:56):
Yeah, that happened in my freaking friend rate today. So
we were doing a friend raid, myth it. We killed
the first boss, the tank drink it drops, and then
the stupid misweaver drogo in my raid has set his
loots back to tank so that he can roll on
the tank drinking that me and oneever tank could have
rolled on and he won the drink it of course.

Speaker 1 (14:14):
Okay, that drinket isn't good for anybody though, right, the vaccine.

Speaker 2 (14:17):
But you know it was good, it would have sucked.

Speaker 1 (14:21):
Yeah exactly. He's rolling for it for the same reason
you are, right, Yeah, yeah, but if.

Speaker 2 (14:26):
It was good, you know, he would have took it
anyways and it would have sucked.

Speaker 1 (14:30):
I don't know. I I think that if you're in
a raid that's called a friend raid and somebody's doing that, yeah,
to rename your raid.

Speaker 2 (14:37):
Yeah, it's got a quote unquote friend raide. Oh, by
the way, the boosting topic look at his ship and
posted his cream shot and discord this ship was for
a while.

Speaker 1 (14:49):
Oh I saw this. I saw there was a spreadsheet
alleged booster or boost ease.

Speaker 2 (14:55):
The top of the guy right there right there, call
me boosted that's crazy.

Speaker 3 (15:01):
But he's saying that you were a you are the
one receiving the boost.

Speaker 2 (15:06):
Yeah, oh, you.

Speaker 3 (15:07):
Were the one doing the booster. You you were a
known booster, right.

Speaker 2 (15:10):
No, No, this was just a bunch of friends playing.
And then I had the lower score discrepancy, so I
was count I was flagged as the boost.

Speaker 1 (15:20):
Oh.

Speaker 3 (15:21):
They ran some kind of scripts, so I see.

Speaker 1 (15:23):
Yeah.

Speaker 3 (15:23):
And then so just you basically were doing the drat
nose rat alt thing, except you wanted to actually played
a mythic plus, so it looked like you just got
boosted to do a high score. That's so funny.

Speaker 1 (15:31):
It's not even the drat No's rat alt thing. That's
a phenomenon that mostly happens in plus ten keys. This
is it's like, oh, I'm doing my I'm pushing for
the season, and I just don't have a high key yet.
And then my first miss to the season as a seventeen, right,
and like that looks awfully boost shaped if you're looking
at it. But it's you know, it's normal if you're
if you're actually really good and just haven't played in

(15:51):
a while.

Speaker 2 (15:53):
Yeah, And here's a list of the people who who
appeared the most on the list and apparently I appeared
nine times as boosted. That's crazy.

Speaker 3 (16:01):
Well, who are some of these other people? Are they known?

Speaker 1 (16:03):
Presumably some of them are are genuinely being boosted? Yeah?

Speaker 2 (16:07):
Yeah, possibly, But yeah.

Speaker 3 (16:10):
I just I mean I get a mythic plus. Like
mythic plus, I totally get, like like if you guys
have ever grouped with someone that had a score and
then you just saw some shit you could never unsee
and then you're like, how did they get into this thing?
And then you start blaming boosting as like a potential thing.
I think a lot of bottom rerollers don't actually get
boosted as far as like what people generally mean with

(16:31):
that term. They don't pay goal to get into the keys.
Just the reality is you'll just get accepted to keys
because you're playing something that everyone wants, and then every
now and then you will time keys. So just by
sheer repetition, you are kind of getting boosted because you
are bad. But like you will see, people legitimately get
the score they get and that's why they're getting invited
to those groups. Yeah, I don't, I don't know, man,

(16:54):
I understand the mythic plus thing because these people actively
harm you, and they're actually taking spots. Like like if
if you just missed the cutoff and you're having a
real bad day, you might be and you have some
scripting knowledge, you might be like, hmm, I wonder who
took I wonder who paid to take my spot? You know,
just it makes sense.

Speaker 2 (17:13):
Yeah, there's also a whole lot of negative connotation behind it,
because you know, you've got these websites that are extremely
tos that involve boosting, and then you also have advertisers.
They're extremely annoying, Like you'll have people randomly whisper you
I don't know, we're just like saying like, oh I
want to sell boost yeah yea da dah.

Speaker 3 (17:35):
It's just like so.

Speaker 1 (17:39):
Also Blizzard is like they they they did the whole
like crackdown on boosting communities, but like they very much
still exist and are out there, and like you just
don't get through that.

Speaker 3 (17:57):
They they basically because we reached out to them and
we do a bunch of boosts within our guild. We
have like we have someone in our guild who is
hired to like be in charge of this, and we're like, well,
what makes us any different than these other gold selling
communities other than scale obviously they're scaled like ten million
times higher. And they're like, well, it's like you're operating
within a guild and we're okay with that. It's like, okay,

(18:18):
so that was fine for us because we're like, we
need to be doing this, and we think what we're
doing is legitimate, right, We're we're not selling it for money.
We could not possibly risk that we would just lose
all of our jobs potentially in real money and stuff
like that. So these like boosting orgs that do this
are all doing it and making real money. That's why
they wanted to remove them. But like, if you can
operate under the guise of a guild, they'll just do

(18:39):
that and then scale it as far as they can
without getting in trouble. And as far as I know,
that's what's happened. Like I don't think any of them
that have gotten removed we're able to just like start
it back up again. But it does seem like they've
stopped policing it. Like here's an example, if everyone remembers
back in the legion when we got banned, every other
top guild got banned because everyone was selling hell runs

(19:00):
for money, like your weekly clears were a few people
were piloting someone's account. This is happening for years. Every
guilt you've heard the name of has did this and
it was great, by the way, making insane money, and
then and then we got into a lot of trouble
for it, and then since then we haven't done it.
And more specifically, they banned people for technically account sharing

(19:20):
because you were like playing these people's accounts, so they
knew it was related to money. Okay, since then, I
don't know anyone a top guild that has been banned
for account sharing. Maybe we haven't done it, but also
who knows if we ever got banned for account sharing
for any other reason than we were selling things for money,
we probably could have been account sharing this whole time.
There's been a long history of that in the race
world first, and it's like you basically could have been

(19:40):
doing it, and it only matters if it's actually something
they're trying to penalize at that time. So I feel
like these gold boosting orgs, maybe maybe Blizzard was paying
attention to it and now they're not, so they feel
like they can just get away with it because there's
not like the police aren't out right now, they're asleep
for that specific topic. And that's that's I mean, that's
a taking time bomb right like that can at any

(20:02):
moment they could just decide to care about it and
they'll get nuked. But yeah, I bet they are existing
in big force and they're probably making a lot of money.

Speaker 2 (20:09):
Yeah, dude. Meanwhile in the Chinese servers, but boosting is
extremely rampant. It is, Dude, I gotta do that. You know,
like maybe I'm just giving a hypothetical. It'd be sick
if I just played in Chines servers and just made
crazy amounts of.

Speaker 1 (20:26):
You're probably you guys are probably like two of the
maybe one hundred people in the world who would lose
money by doing that.

Speaker 2 (20:32):
Okay, doesn't it make a ton of money.

Speaker 3 (20:38):
If we go to Chinese servers. I think we qualify
for that race world first bounty.

Speaker 1 (20:43):
Yeah, yeah, that's a lot of money. That's great.

Speaker 2 (20:50):
But also like actually, like on the Raider leaderboard, if
you ever like look at these characters, if there's like
a not only do you gable like sick seventy three
item level or some shit, it is insane, Like these
guys are so geared and they're just like blasting high
keys all day, like it's actually ridiculous.

Speaker 3 (21:09):
Okay, so let me tell you a little fucking story
about so number one Blizzard themselves, unless something really serious happens,
does not police those servers at all.

Speaker 4 (21:18):
Uh.

Speaker 3 (21:19):
When we got banned, I was just referring to this,
like we got banned for selling runs for money. Back
in Legion, the Chinese guilds were streaming their race World
first runs and Timos Sargaris the tier after that happened,
and we had a major in our guild named Henry
who was Chinese and he understood Mandarin and he could
translate for us. And what was happening on one of
these streams with thousands and thousands of viewers was they

(21:41):
were asking chat if anyone could log on, or does
anyone have a geared ret paladin? We need another ret
paladin for this fight, and someone said yes, and this
dude logged onto this dude's red paladin on stream. They
didn't hide fucking anything. They showed the like, if you
guys have ever piloted peoples accounts before you, like, do

(22:02):
you do a little trick with like their account name
in the and the WTF folder and like so all
of your buyings and stuff transfer. They did all of
that main monitor in front of thousands of people and
logged on this guy's account from chat and then killed
Mythic Fallen Avatar. Like that is that is the level
of what you can get away with in that region.
It's completely on It's the wild West. It's completely unpoliced. So, yeah,

(22:25):
you are right, and I'm sure it's true in the
Mythic Plus scene, but it is. It is like it's
complete madness, at least it used to be.

Speaker 1 (22:31):
Have you guys seen the warcraft logs like screenshots where
it's like one day eight Mythic end boss kills, each
one with twenty different characters, but like the same same log. Yeah,
and it's all in the same log. It's like someone
did this.

Speaker 3 (22:46):
In EU a few years ago. Do you guys remember this?
They got banned someone someone got banned. It was it
was only as far away as like maybe four years
ago at most. Some some EU guild Russian guild boosted
eight of the top Hall of Fame guilds.

Speaker 1 (23:06):
Oh I remember that. I remember the Hall of Fame boosts.

Speaker 3 (23:09):
Yeah, yeah, that's what that's what it was. And basically
the same thing was figured out because it was all
in one log, so you could see that it was
all done by the same people. And it was also
just super obvious anyway, like these people had basically never
pulled the boss then instantly killed it. So yeah, it's
it's a wild world up there. But you can't get
away with that in any any unfortunately. But if you
were in China, you'd be chilling not even making that up.

Speaker 2 (23:29):
You would Yeah, we can make so much money right now,
not that we would, but you know, we could.

Speaker 3 (23:36):
You know what, when I'm saying this, it sounds made up,
but it's true. And the reason why I feel bad
about saying it is because like anytime someone brings up
China servers, they always actually make something up. Like if
you guys ever heard that Chinese guilds have better loot
because like when you used to have bonus roles in
this game that but because of Chinese gambling laws, bonus
rolls couldn't like fail, so you always got from it

(24:00):
that's completely made up, like maybe the fuck up that
it was never true, but like people just say it
and then so so me saying the boost that like
logging on streams sounds like I'm making up and I
promise him not making it up.

Speaker 2 (24:10):
There's actually so much made up ship. I remember if
people said that about Alo rogues six Buff scambling. Ironically,
I'm like dead ass. I've had a lot of chatters
very like, don't their Awlo rogues always roast six Buff.

Speaker 3 (24:30):
I'm not joking, but I know you're not joking.

Speaker 1 (24:33):
There is a hot like Outlaw Outlaw on MM or
two specs that they prefer compared to the Western regions
as well. That's like all that's been true.

Speaker 3 (24:41):
No, mean, it's because of Chinese gambling.

Speaker 1 (24:43):
Yeah, because of Chinese gambling.

Speaker 3 (24:44):
Lost.

Speaker 1 (24:44):
Of course, they did recently do a big band wave
over there though, but it is all done by like natties,
not by blizzards. So they they banned almost nine thousand
players who boosted or who like cheated the ty the
last season from M plus, which is kind of crazy.

(25:04):
They gave the whole players as well. Look at this they.

Speaker 3 (25:10):
With title with title and everything.

Speaker 1 (25:13):
Yeah, so it looks like they banned or they oh
the server, Yeah, they put the server and then they
did some anonymisation with like that. They anonymize some of
the middle of the names.

Speaker 2 (25:25):
It looks like that's the why.

Speaker 1 (25:27):
Yeah, I don't know, but yeah, this is uh. These
are like all the follower modes, story mode, Winter Veil buffs,
Lunar Festival buffs, all these different things, mind control, legion
mobs to apply their buffs to their team, dream Surge buffs.

Speaker 3 (25:45):
So I kind of doubt. There's two things about this.
So I kind of doubt Netty's police this because of
how much they let go on normally. I bet Blizzards
saw this and was like, you guys need to do
something about this.

Speaker 2 (25:56):
That's that's my The thing is that they didn't do
it on the West servers.

Speaker 1 (25:59):
Yeah, like the scenario where I think, wait, I don't
thin people don't think. I don't think anybody who did
this in the West has gotten punished yet. So I
think it's a scenario where exactly, Yeah, maybe that's maybe
they're collecting the list.

Speaker 3 (26:13):
Also, the other thing, we have banned nine thousand players
who got this Tempered Hero is that the point zero
one percent title.

Speaker 2 (26:19):
Yeah, yeah, so that's another topic.

Speaker 3 (26:21):
I mean, there's nine million players that have done a
mythic plus key in China.

Speaker 2 (26:25):
There are a lot of Chinese players.

Speaker 1 (26:27):
So there are, but also there aren't that many in
title range, so they banned more people than we're in
title range for this. So I think what happened is
maybe they banned all these players and any of them
who had the title, they took the title from That's
one explanation for what could have happened here. Or maybe
they took away title and then they looked at who

(26:48):
was now going to be in the title range, and
then a bunch of them exploited too, and they did
that a couple of times until they had, you know,
a clean title range. I'm not one hundred percent sure.

Speaker 3 (26:57):
I mean, it's still it's a big number.

Speaker 1 (26:59):
Yeah, it is a big number. I mean M plus
is a big thing.

Speaker 3 (27:01):
I mean, it's possible that like it just became so
rampant over there that basically anyone who was doing dungeons
was doing this.

Speaker 1 (27:08):
That's almost kind of crazy. That's what we talk about
when we talked when we when as commenters mentioned in
our video, we you know, defended exploiting to our moral detriment.
Was there is that that element to like, you know,
if one week a couple of people do it and
don't get in trouble and then the next week a
couple more people do it and don't get in trouble, right, Like,

(27:28):
eventually that becomes everybody at the top of the leader
board is exploiting because that's the incentive.

Speaker 3 (27:33):
Yeah, I mean Blizzard, I mean it's all I mean,
I would just put a lot of the emphasis on
Blizzard having to deal with it. Like here's an example. Okay,
never exploit. It's just wrong. It's morally wrong, and you
can't do it. Okay, Well, one that you can get
away with is like the sirces signet thing you can
still do. I did that yesterday on stream for my
monk because I'm like, I could get like thirty eye

(27:54):
levels for free on my on my ring without spending
any crests, Like why would I not do this? You know?
And uh, And that's kind of true if they said,
like they're not gonna do anything for it, it's just
like some But then then you just add in the
world of there are some exploits you can do and
some exploits you don't, and that's why people do them.
If it was you couldn't do any of them ever,
you just wouldn't do anything ever because you would know

(28:16):
there's a punishment. But yeah, love big can of worms,
which you talked about multiple times.

Speaker 1 (28:21):
Okay, I have a mini question seeing a Cercus circlet,
you guys happy with how powerful that that thing is
still in the season. I don't know, you guys like
pretty much all my guys still have that on.

Speaker 2 (28:31):
I don't feel like it's actually that Yeah.

Speaker 1 (28:34):
So I looked at the top ten characters by it,
I'm albile, and five of them still had it on.
The other five are growing. Usually it's a Jasser diamond
and a good stat ring.

Speaker 3 (28:42):
Yeah, I'm reading that most people once they get like
full mythic upgraded rings, it's slightly better. And I'm trying
to compare it to like the uh the Onyx annul
it from Dragonflight, and that was, you know, so powerful
that I believe Healers wouldn't have taken it off until
this expansion had it not been nerved. Yeah, and it
was like it was just ultrabiss basically for a lot
of classes. I don't know how many classes where Circe's

(29:06):
circlet is best in slot with perfect gear in this season.
Are you guys aware of any I'm sure there must be.

Speaker 1 (29:11):
There's I think there's a few, but for most it's
like this does get replaced once you have two good
you know, mythic.

Speaker 2 (29:17):
Rings they replace.

Speaker 3 (29:21):
I I feel like it's fine.

Speaker 1 (29:23):
Yeah, I think I feel like they slightly overshot on it,
but I agree it's not like it's not as bad
as what annul it would have been if they hadn't
nerved that.

Speaker 3 (29:32):
Yeah.

Speaker 1 (29:33):
Yeah, just.

Speaker 3 (29:36):
I mean honestly, I feel like, with how hard jewelry
it can be to get, I think it might have
been like a nice mental boost to a lot of
people early in the season knowing they didn't have to
like actually get that second ring for mythic plus. You know,
maybe I'm just trying to throw some out there.

Speaker 2 (29:50):
I feel that way for sure.

Speaker 1 (29:51):
Yeah, I just I kind of wish you did replace
it with a hero track ring, which, like you, usually
don't do well. There are some classes that do, but
it's usually like only if you get a Turbobyss two
ring set up that you would replace it before mith track.
It depends. I don't Maybe it's also I think a
bit better for tanks than this for dps, so my
experience might be colored by that.

Speaker 4 (30:13):
Yo.

Speaker 3 (30:13):
I need to ask you guys something. Yeah, how did
you guys feel about that new ARCon.

Speaker 1 (30:17):
Add on the Oh oh great. Yeah so this puts
people's parses on name plates when or on tooltip. Yeah.

Speaker 2 (30:30):
So my take was, I don't think it even really matters.
I know everyone's been like up in flames about vis
saying how it's gonna be the worst shit ever and yeah,
yeaha yah, But I feel like it's not that much
different from having a very ryo add on. Plus, like,
I don't think verily many people who will even use this.
People are like way more boogeymanning this than what it
will actually do.

Speaker 3 (30:52):
Yeah, I I to me all of the out So
you so you're right. So something that a lot of
people aren't aware of is that in higher level keys
or like invites to maybe like a mythic pug, someone
is likely to look up your logs anyway this if
it's publicly available, because you know you don't want you
want to, like, you value your time, you don't want

(31:13):
to wipe, and you can get a slightly better idea
of their skill level with some parses rather than just
their ioscore, just how far progressed they are in the raid,
which you would see on the Radario add on. But
I don't think ninety nine percent of the public outcry
against this add on, I think is coming from people
that did not know that that process already existed or

(31:35):
even really did high level content to where it would
be relevant. It's more just, you know, one of the
anxieties people have about wow Wich, I think is totally valid,
by the way, is like a lot of people want
to just play the game and have fun and they
don't want people like putting their performance under a microscope.
And this add on, and like the picture specifically that

(31:55):
went with it, with the tooltip, is just the antithesis
of what people want. They hate that and they don't
want that in their game. In this and I think
a lot of people who maybe even don't play the
game were like, dude, this is part of why I quit,
because like this parse culture shit, it just it got
main It went mainstream, went gaming mainstream on Twitter and ship.
So like, I think I think it was that. So
I think the fact that most people your response and

(32:16):
other people's response was play the game. We're like this
is kind of just like convenient because people were looking
up this information anyway, and it's actually quite helpful for
those situations. But I think most of the people who
were against it were you know, either didn't know that
but don't really care, but they're just like, this is
what I fucking hate and I'm gonna let you know
that I just fucking hate this, And there was an
opportunity for them to do that, and I think their
opinion's pretty credible too. Yeah.

Speaker 2 (32:37):
No, I think it's completely valid, like it is something
to be potentially worried about, but it's just like I
don't think it'll be as real as they might think.
It's kind of like the whole people who leave dungeons,
right Like, yeah, I'm sure if there are people who
leave dungeons, but I don't think it's like fat combat
of an occurrence.

Speaker 1 (32:56):
I'll make a bit of the counter argument to this
that I look, so, I think are definitely a lot
of people who had the reaction that you guys are describing.
I do think it's true though that Okay, if you
think that it's kind of a bad thing, making it
more convenient is gonna make it more doable for more people.
Right Like, if you think about if I had to,
you know, if I had to go and find somebody's
private logs, right Like, that's a step that I'm only

(33:18):
going to get their log in or whatever and look
at their private logs if they're trying to join my guild,
right like, that's that's a huge amount of work. That's
a lot of a lot. I'm not going to do
that now looking up somebody's public facing page, you know,
tabbing out, popping open there the browser. It's kind of annoying,
But I'll do it if I'm running a mythic PUG.
Maybe if I'm doing like a heroic PUG, I don't know, man,
like I got thirty applicants, I'm really gonna bother like

(33:40):
looking at people's logs. Nah, But if I can mouse
over everybody and be like, oh there's an orange person,
grab them, right like, that is very much something that
is now easier to do, and so more people might
do it, and so then maybe now more people are
going to play like absolute idiots to try and get
higher parses in their PUG in their heroic runs. Right
if you ask somebody like, hey, can you go run

(34:02):
this this bomb into the container on Galliwick's No, Like, no, man,
If I do that, I'm never gonna get invited to
anything ever again, right, like, which is.

Speaker 3 (34:09):
Which would be terrible if that was the case.

Speaker 1 (34:11):
Yeah, So I think that there's some I think it's
not unfounded, Like you can see the pathway by which
this add on coming out leads to the quality of
the game getting worse. For I think, especially like the
heroic pugging range is where this might have some pretty
contagious effects.

Speaker 3 (34:28):
And I think that blow is probably where one of
the outcry came from.

Speaker 1 (34:33):
Yeah, because I agree, like mythic pugs, if you're you're
doing a mythic pug and you're not looking at log Actually,
I often don't look at logs for first two mythic
pugs because I CBA, I just pick and we Usually
I'm usually only pugging one or two slots. Anyways, I'll
just feel like, yep, welcome, let's uh, let's see how
this person does. It's fine, doesn't matter, right, but if
it did matter, I would uh. And I agree that
this this just makes it more convenient in those cases,

(34:55):
and that's just nice. Yeah, I can again, I can
see it's definitely one of those things where I like
the ickiness feeling is a lot of the a lot
of the problem, and there are people who just want
to play, who just want a game and not feel
like if they don't research beforehand and like lock the

(35:15):
fuck in for their heroic run, they're gonna like not
brief their character for like, you know, you can grief
your progression in some games, but it's it's weird, and
ena would like grief your progression because you've got some
bad logs associated with your character.

Speaker 2 (35:27):
Now, Yeah, I just feel like the Pandora box has
already been open. I mean like I've always been against
parts culture, right, Like I hate the idea of logs
and parsing and just like having details that shows everyone's damage.
But it's already it's it's already done, right, Like the
damage is already done. Yeah, this is like how the
game is, Like we just have to accept that that's
going to be how it is. Like if if Blizzard

(35:49):
Wars was to make a stance initially like way back
that they were not going to allow any of the
shit at all, and I would have been fully for it.
But I feel like it's already out there, so it's
kind of like it's just well, neverber one of those
add ons. It didn't seem like a big deal to me.

Speaker 3 (36:03):
It's probably like in MMOs forever. I think Wow is
just such an impactful game, and this happened to Wow
over a long period of time, like basically, and a
new MMO we'll we'll probably always end up being that
way as well. Like even if games try to intentionally
hide it, players just does that, right.

Speaker 1 (36:18):
It doesn't.

Speaker 3 (36:18):
It doesn't, you know, it's it does And then people
are willing to literally break the TuS to see ye
and and a lot of them do so like that
is that just shows you if anything?

Speaker 2 (36:28):
Right, dude?

Speaker 3 (36:29):
This is this is a great topic. I feel like
everyone had very different and reasonable points from their PUV.
There's just great podcasting right there. Just w everybody here.
There's other Wow podcasts that could not come anywhere close
to what just happened.

Speaker 1 (36:43):
Hey man, And you know what, the commenters also let
us know in the comments your opinions on this and
all other takes this episode. The POTC commenters are also
just the the goats as well.

Speaker 2 (36:55):
What yeah, so Max you started Guzzy right, I saw
you started. So you're playing the game for the first
time in a few years. How has it?

Speaker 3 (37:04):
That's not true? But Okay, yep, what do you mean that?
What do you mean that's that's just simply not true. Well, actually,
when was the last time I played, right, Yeah, the
last time I like played the game, like, I was
super into it was Havoc and a mirror. Just still
like logging on every day Slam and Dungeon's God, that
was so fun. I played a little bit of Frosty
Cut last season, but I was kind of a little

(37:26):
out of it. Yeah, I don't know, uh, with this season, Yeah,
I'm having I'm having a blast. I've only done one
Mythic plus dungeon, but it was the brand new one,
the like Floodgate one, and that dungeon was sick. It
was super fun.

Speaker 2 (37:37):
Yeah.

Speaker 1 (37:38):
Yeah, jorkiy I was watching you do that dungeon to
day and you described it.

Speaker 2 (37:40):
As a W dungeon W dungeon. Yeah.

Speaker 1 (37:43):
Yeah, funny because it seems like from PTR testing a
lot of people were worried that it just like had
that kind of mechanic vomit feel to it with like
so much going on. But I think from our perspective,
it's just such a beautiful, wide open dungeon. It's so
fun to go in there and you could just do
anything you want. There's so much creativity.

Speaker 2 (38:02):
M dude, I've been so into Wow recently. I'm having
a great time.

Speaker 3 (38:06):
I'm hearing that from a lot of people, I specifically
Mythic Plus ters. This seems like it's like it's hard
to tell when you're in the moment because there's always
so much negativity in general, but it seems like we're
in one of the better Mythic Plus seasons that the
game has had.

Speaker 2 (38:19):
I think, dude, even the raid. So we're now on
Gallywick's I'm playing Boom Kenny Gallwicks probably the first Boom
can clear it and uh hell yeah yeah. So we've
gone like pretty far into the fight and my entire
guilt like they've been like, you know, typing in chat
like because you don't have we have like our little
in party discussion while like the very leaders like talking

(38:40):
about shit or looking stuff up right, and like people
are actually saying how they've been having such a good
time with this rate and seeing how like a lot
of the fights are just like super fun and I've
never really seen this before from my guilt, and I
feel exactly the same, like this raid actually fucking owns.
I know a lot of people like don't feel that
strongly about a lot of these fights, especially Galliywicks, But

(39:01):
I fucking love Galliwick's. I think it's an amazing fight.

Speaker 3 (39:04):
People are so mad at me recently, and I I
because of one comment I made which I said, there
are some mythic graders out there that this isn't in
reaction to like saying that Galliwick's and this raid are
an abomination. And I said, you know, there are some
mythic graders that would rather them be closer to Galliwicks

(39:24):
and this raid's difficulty than Answer rec and Airbar Palace.
And then a lot of commenters are this podcast. I'm
pretty baby it was on this podcast or someone else.
They were like, myth graders do not want this, like
myth graders want like a super super hard rate, And
I'm like, I don't know, man, Like it's they're not
even at Galiewakes.

Speaker 2 (39:39):
Yeah, there's no shot.

Speaker 1 (39:40):
I mean there's a lot of room between Galliwicks and
Answer Rec for a boss to land and difficulty, right.

Speaker 3 (39:45):
Yeah, correct, But I'm thinking about Galuwick specifically either. I
think I think this raid in general is if you
were to compare this raids difficulty in airbar palaces difficulty
not even for world first for a cutting edge field
is significantly less.

Speaker 1 (39:59):
Right, and I think that's good. I think they landed
a much better difficulty curve as well. Right, Like, obviously
it was a little scuffed week one, but that doesn't
matter because the guilds aren't. There only a couple of
Gilds in the world. They are fighting those things week one, right,
and then they landed some big nerves on Sticks and Sprocket,
and I think we've now got a nice like two
pretty puggable bosses and then Ricks a step up. Sticks
is a step up it, Sprockets a step up. Like
it all felt pretty pretty good.

Speaker 3 (40:21):
They just they nerved bosses really early, and then the
last two bosses, which are usually the ones that need
that don't get nerved fast enough. The last boss is
in nerves ever for him to a fault, and Muggsy
is very nerve by gear and the previous boss one

(40:43):
arm Bandit is the one where it's kind of like
maybe there's a little it's just kind of crazy card crazy.

Speaker 1 (40:51):
I see the leak of one arm Bandit Nerfs coming
next week. Yeah, there's okay, So you know Zort this
the Tomato v tuber streamer who's like the GM of
Honesty or something that OC guild. Nope, he okay, well
he's a Tomato VTuber streamer that is the GM of
Honesty Okay, thet up yep. And he like brought a

(41:14):
cameraon and was streaming a Wow thirtieth anniversary event with
and there was like Morgan Day there signing stuff and
he was like talking to about it, and Morgan Day
said something about how they were deffinit next week, so.

Speaker 2 (41:25):
Yeah, they were just heaving. Yeah. It was funny because
like they're just like in the middle of a party
and we're just kind of like shooting the ship, just
like chatting. Just we were just like casually talking about
one R and Banded being pretty difficult of a boss,
and Morgan Age just casually goes like, oh, yeah, that
boss is probably getting ners next week.

Speaker 1 (41:43):
Here I can we can we can watch the clip
together because it's a this thing is so funny.

Speaker 4 (41:48):
Yeah, pretty next week, Mike gild And left All Night
on one on Fan and Ros nine that wasn't need
an Okay, they will say the Rank one motion and
guild anime wif all nine one one.

Speaker 1 (42:01):
Yeah, I think next week, all right, next week, thank
you for that.

Speaker 3 (42:08):
Yeah, that's I mean, that's exactly the kind of thing
you'd hear at a wow party with developers at it,
where they'll speak more freely. But also I feel like
if someone were to just make up one arm birth
one arm bandit is getting nerve next week, it'd be like, yep,
that checks out, like it's not that's not surprising, you know.

Speaker 2 (42:21):
So yeah, yeah, so I will comment on galliwags. I
don't think it's as easy as people make it out
to be. Like what Preach said, it's easier than Richard Reaver.
That is fucking ridiculous. Yeah, I will say, like like
after doing this fight, like so we're pretty deep into
a fight, right, like we're like ninety poles or something
into it. We're not We're not as great as like

(42:43):
pop toot corn Dog or.

Speaker 3 (42:47):
It's really hard. We took a hundred on that, boss,
you could kill it faster than us.

Speaker 2 (42:52):
Hard boss. Yeah, I mean, I mean, like, so the
healing check is actually pretty big on that fight. I
feel like I am in constant then verge of death,
so like and it's super action packed, like there's just
shit happening the entire fight. The thing that makes it
easy is there's not a lot of steps to learn,
because like, once you figure out the first mechanic, you

(43:14):
kind of understand entire P one, And once you figure
out the first mechanic of P two and you kind
of understand how P two works. So it just feels
like the fight doesn't go on for that long, but
like it is chalgy and you've gotten uh to like
twenty percent.

Speaker 3 (43:27):
Okay, so you've gotten into the last phase.

Speaker 2 (43:29):
Yeah, yeah, we've gone to like eight minutes into fight.

Speaker 3 (43:31):
I think that you got most of the way there.
For what was wrong with the fight. Everything you said
is right. It's just that you said you will you
learn P two and then it's just all the same. Well,
when you learn P two, you also learn P three.
I think that's the biggest the single biggest thing is
that when when you get to P three, none of
the mechanics are amplified or bigger or harder than they were.
It's just like, oh, you have less space now, but

(43:52):
you have more than enough space to deal with anything.
And there's like ten seconds between every mechanic you.

Speaker 2 (43:56):
Know, but it's a fun fight an entire way through,
and it's just like there's action happening in this entire time.
So I don't find that to be a problem. It's
just you're not having to spend another fifty to one
hundred pol learning anover section of the fight. That's kind
of how I see it.

Speaker 1 (44:11):
I think P one is fine, but I do think
P two is like like you can watch some range
povs a P two where they literally stand in the
same location for like two minutes with their camera the truth.

Speaker 2 (44:23):
I mean, I'm playing range right now and no, so
here's a bit of a dance going on.

Speaker 3 (44:26):
He's specifically referring to fire mages who have the bomb
and don't have the U don't have the ability to soak,
So you do actually stand in the middle and unless
suppression fire spawns on you, you literally never move for
any reason. That is that is that, that is true,
But also that is a strat based decision, right like
you could have that not be the case. Everyone's using

(44:47):
our strata, I'm pretty sure. And the reason that is
is why would you have the people who can wipe
you if they die do anything? And the answer is
he probably wouldn't if you could.

Speaker 2 (44:54):
Right, Yeah, I mean I have a way I think
once more people see this fight, I have a feeling
this will be a ptty well received by Yeah, I
feel like I think it'll be for a lot of players.

Speaker 1 (45:05):
I feel like, right now, if you can get past
pre NERF Muggsy pre NERF one arm bandit, like you
are going to find Galliwicks to be an easier encounter
to progress than either of those. Uh, And that just
that might that that's this kind of thing where like
depending on your motivations for rating, that can be either
a positive or negative.

Speaker 2 (45:23):
Right, Like, bro, I don't know about easier for one
arm bandit. Maybe maybe our guild just sucks Okay, I
swear it's harder than one arm banded. Well, I guess
you guys got a shoot on to be.

Speaker 1 (45:31):
Okay, maybe we just sucked off on our bandit, but like, yeah,
it's way hard of.

Speaker 3 (45:34):
The question too. What if you guys had to guess
what guild rank? What guild rank? Does it stop where
you want the last boss to blow your brains out
in difficulty?

Speaker 2 (45:46):
What do you mean?

Speaker 3 (45:46):
Like, I think you're so like the whole conversation of like, uh,
you know, if if you were to make the argument
of like people would want a boss to be easier
than answer ex maybe closer to Galliwix than and than
answer AC. The people who are saying, no, that's not true.
I want extremely fucking hard. I'm being saying, like what
what guild rank wants to wipe on the last boss

(46:08):
three hundred times? Like when does it? When does it stop?

Speaker 2 (46:12):
Like I can tell you to do a guild rank.

Speaker 3 (46:14):
I think it does, right because like you would assume
the guilds that are at the higher guild rank or
the guilds who raid more, care more about rating and
usually are better at it. So you want a harder
challenge to uh, you know, entertain yourselves. You're doing this
for a reason, doing it for fun, right, So like
what like I can tell you for us, Like I
think a perfectly tuned end boss is like it's not

(46:35):
bugged or needing to be nerved, and it's somewhere around
like two hundred to maybe three fifty of like just
depends on how difficult the boss is. But if it's
like consistent progression, that's that feeling at the end of
that is something you can't get from another game where
like when a boss is one hundred, that's not true.
So what I'm saying is that what guild rank like
is maybe popped our corn dog. Maybe it's World fifth maybe, like,

(46:57):
like what what ranked guild? How many people are you
serving by making a boss that requires four hundred poles?

Speaker 1 (47:04):
Yeah, it's got it so hard. It's small.

Speaker 2 (47:06):
It's just so hard to compare because I feel like
it's not about the pole count number. I think it's
more about it's just yeah, I don't know, I think the.

Speaker 3 (47:14):
Pole count matters, you know, like like let's just say,
let's just say Galliwicks is the exact same boss. I
think what actually you know, I will say I noticed
this about you most bosses you like or dislike over
the past few years of talking to you about rating
is pretty much anytime a boss gets passed, like it's
like is it one fifty or maybe if it's one hundred,
you start going from like this boss is pretty fun

(47:35):
to like I fucking hate this. Like I don't growl
the same way too, because he's like very vocal about
It's why I remember both of you well.

Speaker 2 (47:43):
So for me, it's a little bit different. Like me personally,
the way I see it is if I'm just repeating
the same shit, then I'm just bored and I just
want to get out of here because, like, you know,
like i feel like I've already usually around like ninety
poles in I feel like there's no boss fight where
I don't feel like I've alredy learned the entire fight,
like even like answering, right, Like once it gets to
ninety polls, I'm like, all right, well, we're like at

(48:03):
this point, we should just kill the boss, right, because
like what else is there to see? I don't want
to see the same shit over.

Speaker 3 (48:07):
You want to learn the boss? You just don't want
to optimize? Yeah, what's not optimizing? I mean I'm to
stop messing up.

Speaker 2 (48:14):
Yeah, because like I've already gone to that point where
I'm hitting the same globals for one hundred poles straight.
I don't want to just do a level hundred poles
of doing the exact same ship, Like let's just get
over with.

Speaker 3 (48:23):
Yeah. Also, you like optimizing because like you wouldn't do
the TGP otherwise, right, because that's like literally what the
TGP is, Like, you don't.

Speaker 1 (48:30):
Rate in a guild that does that right, like you're
that you're missing out part of it.

Speaker 3 (48:35):
Well, who actually gives what guilt truly gets to like
get to a boss fully figured out and then be like, hey,
we have to generate ten percent of the boss's HP.
There's like probably one or two.

Speaker 2 (48:45):
Right.

Speaker 3 (48:45):
It's that's not something a lot of people actually have
to deal with because most people get to a fight
with like, oh, this is exactly what you have to
do to kill it, or even less depending on how
much gear you have. But like I think in dorky
situation is when you're not at that level of guild,
you're not doing the race world first, You're not you know,
doing this with this is your main thing in your
life that you're doing outside of work. Maybe you when

(49:06):
you're pulling a boss for two hundred times, if you're
one of the better players, you're not actually like feeling
like you're getting better every pole. It feels like you've
capped out on getting better and you're waiting for people
to catch up, and that feeling is terrible. Is that
is that correct?

Speaker 2 (49:17):
Or someone?

Speaker 3 (49:17):
Yeah?

Speaker 2 (49:17):
Yeah, Like like right now on what you call it,
Galloway's like I've already figured out all my timings like
I already know of a positioning, but dance and everything,
so it's like we're just waiting for the boss to
die at this point, right, because like you know, I'm
playing muon Cain too, so it's like I had to
figure all that stuff out myself. I'm not just like
blindly opening up some buonkin Vaughan just looking at the

(49:38):
very exact positioning and seed times and all that. Like
I kind of just like did all that offstream and exactly.

Speaker 1 (49:44):
That's probably part of the reason. Yeah, yeah, it's been
pretty fun for you, is like you're figuring out how
to do Yeah.

Speaker 2 (49:50):
Yeah, Like there's definitely a lot of blind progression for
me on that fight, and it was a lot of
fun for sure. But I'm at that point now where
it's like, all right, you know, we've seen the whole
fight and I've gone to the point where I'm ready
to kill it. So I think that's just the point
where it stops being fun any Like, it doesn't help
if it's a ten pole boss too, because like if

(50:12):
I'm doing a boss for like ten twenty polls and
there's nothing to really figure out what we're optimized, and
that's also extremely boring.

Speaker 3 (50:18):
Yeah, it's like it's the importance of rating with a
guild with good skill parody, because if you are way
better than the average of your guild, you will always
feel like long bosses are dreadful, and if you are
on the lower end of that, obviously you feel bad
that you're holding other people back. Like, for example, if
you could you could do any hard boss then tech
technically from what you're saying, dorky, you could do a boss.
It takes your guild three hundred poles. But if you

(50:39):
are everyone there is the exact same skill level, you
should enjoy all three hundred those poles because all of
those polls are you learning and getting better. You're not
waiting for someone else to do it, I guess, even though, Well,
the way I'll still a long time.

Speaker 2 (50:51):
Yeah. The way I also see it is like if
you're not a race to world first guild, you can
kind of just like pull up a VOD and just
copy everything and like it's a if the homework is
already done for you, right like it. That's why I
feel like three hundred plus polls doesn't really make sense,
Like maybe it's just a b thing, but kay, can't
you literally just like watch a vote and you just
like see how it works, and by the time you
get to one hundred poles, you can pretty much just

(51:12):
do what the VOD does, except you're like way more
geared and all that.

Speaker 1 (51:17):
So why did you do that on inserac?

Speaker 2 (51:20):
Well, that's what That's exactly what I'm saying, you know,
like we shouldn't require that many poles, but it's just right.

Speaker 1 (51:25):
But like where else where are those poles coming from?
If that process, like that process provably doesn't work right,
like or it doesn't it's not that simple.

Speaker 2 (51:32):
Well, I mean I figured it's just because like people
don't really bother watching what they should do. I don't know,
because like when I got to the point where we
were like P three is like people are completely clueless
on like what they're supposed to be doing.

Speaker 3 (51:41):
But in gall pre Ner, if web blades were just instead,
I mean that was just that was like most skills
like one hundred and fifty plus polls just to like
not die to that consistently.

Speaker 2 (51:51):
And so that's the difference. Yeah, I'm not saying like
like if I think I said this last podcast, but
like if people just died in mistakes, then it's like
it's not big deal, but like if people literally have
noivy out what they're doing, then that really sucks. It's like, Okay,
you know, we get to a certain part of the
fight and people stilln't understand that, like, oh, you're not
supposed to be like standing here, or you're supposed to
be like doing this, even though like we already went

(52:13):
over in the VOD.

Speaker 3 (52:16):
Dude, I'm having such a revelation right now and I
might be like totally missing it here, so I might
need some help from you to figure this out. But
my biggest sorry you might hear some dog sweaking in
the background. Ella's Ella came here, girl. I'm sorry. That's
just gonna really bother me. I'll give it right back
to her after this. But I'm having a fucking Jimmy

(52:37):
neutron brain blast right now. Okay, so do you guys? Okay?
In the race, the thing that makes me really upset
is usually okay, So anytime we're doing a boss, we're
figuring the boss out and the execution requirement of the
boss will line up. Everyone's happy vibes are awesome. I'm
feeling great. Ready to kill the boss now, guys, fully
figured out, cool, and then we kill it. The bosses

(52:58):
that drive me crazy are when I trick myself into
thinking that we have it fully figured out, or for
whatever reason, the strategy requirement of the boss is much
easier than the execution. And I'm sitting here just waiting
for them to fucking kill it, and that is dreadful,
and I get super ornery and pissy, and I'm just like,
why are we fucking doing this? I'm literally bored. I'm like,
my brain requires stimulation and I'm actually bored, and I

(53:18):
want to move on to the next thing. And I
wonder you mentioned this thing about the video I wonder
how much of this is true with video guilds, which
is every other guild in the world, right, How that
can be frustrating because technically you have like the thing
in front of you, like, this is how you do it.
It is solved. The only thing that is there is execution.
And for some people thinking like basically you start progression

(53:43):
with the feeling that I end progression with sometimes in
some fights, And maybe that's why raid can feel so frustrating,
is because like when you're not actually figuring it out
as a group, it is purely just down to execution.
You're kind of just waiting for it to happen, and
that's kind of not as fun nearly as any kind
of thing figuring it out, And maybe that's where that
frustration comes from.

Speaker 2 (54:03):
Yeah, it's kind of like you know, like like for example,
it's like, how do people just not know where to
go with the blaze lines by pull a hundred right,
Like it should just be known that, like, oh, here
are rules you know you're supposed to do vis if
isn't that or like what your soak spots are? Right?
Mm hmm. That's kind of how I see.

Speaker 3 (54:19):
It, And you just you should the expectations you go
and knowing all that stuff. I think some guilds do that, right,
aren't some guilds like Hey, everybody, before showing up to raid,
watch this video and like know exactly what you need
to do. But that just means so many different things
to so many different people. You know, you're some of
them are relying on like some reminder call outs and
some mad on packages to do it. A lot of

(54:39):
that like work for them, they're allowed. They're wanting good
raid leading to do that for them, like honestly good
raid leading at a lower guild level where you're not
like doing like literally figuring out the fights on Race World. First,
why good raid leading might matter is because there is
not a consistent standard for showing up to raid prepared
and and that can just fill in a lot of
those gaps.

Speaker 1 (54:59):
Yeah, yeah, I mean good rate Like good we had
on Muggsy. We did, we had our we only played
one devvoker and our second devvoker did like twenty first
thing on Muggsy and it was so good. It was like, Okay,
here comes a frontal, this one goes to purple, Okay,
here comes the tank line, this one goes down the
middle right, and like you hear that, and then people
you just never wiped, like somebody gets a mechanic and

(55:21):
panics and doesn't know where to go right. And it's
definitely something where it's like but not a lot of
guilds have access to that or like can you can't
make twenty people watch a video and like know exactly
what they're supposed to do, right, You have to just
pull the boss some amount of times before that happens.
So yeah, it's definitely one of the things where like, yeah,
it depends on your guilt, right, And I think that

(55:42):
with all things, the biggest thing is just it feels
bad when everybody's not on the same page. Right, Like,
if you have some fast learners, some slow learners, if
you have some video watchers and write out an extensive
reminder for yourself and some people that are just like, yeah,
let's pull the boss and see what it does, right, Like,
that is going to cause tension, and a fight like
Galliwick's will inherently cause less tension between those different groups

(56:04):
because there's not a huge difference.

Speaker 2 (56:05):
Right.

Speaker 1 (56:05):
If you just tell somebody like, yeah, you're you're soaking
the left cones, that's all the information they need for
Galewix P two right and P three it's like, I'm
soaking the left cones, okay, Pogger's right, Like that's what
I do. And then the rest of it, they are
just mechanics that you game out right, and you compare
that to answer I and it's like, Okay, you need
to pick up this essence from this location at this
specific time and then go through this gateway and move
to this specific location to drop your essence to right

(56:28):
while dodging web blades before and after and during right
like that is a you know, apocalypse level difficulty thing
that Galliwix just does not have, And so it's kind
of a great equalizer among guilds with different levels of
preparation and stuff.

Speaker 2 (56:43):
Yeah, to be fair, I'm also not saying like, you know,
every guild is expected to do this. I'm just saying like,
in my circumstances, this is how our guild runs. We
literally have our rate time spent on watching raciently world
first VODs or just like some tops like Dreandal spots
to you just like to see how like others they're
doing it.

Speaker 1 (57:01):
Yeah, we do. We do PC theater before every boss. Right, Well,
we'll watch the vod talk about it, and then we'll
do like phase by phase. As we're reaching a new phase,
we'll be like, okay, we're about to reach P two,
let's watch the two again.

Speaker 2 (57:11):
That's right. Yeah, So in like in our guild, we
have that expectation. Like obviously there are probably a lot
of guilds out there that don't do this at all,
and they kind of just going blind or like maybe
they like will say like oh, yes, should probably look
up stuff. So that's a completely difference.

Speaker 1 (57:24):
Yeah, you got a lot of the raid leaders kind
of shaming everybody for making a mistake and being like,
you guy should have looked this up. You guys should
looked this up, right, But like, it's like an inhuman
expectation that they're placing on people, and.

Speaker 3 (57:34):
Most people just need to do the fight and mess
it up to learn it.

Speaker 2 (57:39):
Yeah. So on the M plus side of things, I
don't know if you guys have saw, but apparently this
season so far has the highest retention we've seen since
shadow Lands or some shit like something about it. Yeah.
I mean, so this season absolutely.

Speaker 1 (57:53):
Owns there is a confounding factor here, which is the
the so the like Week four is the best week forever,
but it was also mythic Dungeon week where if you
do four keys you get a hero track for every season,
just like no that it lands on different weeks season easonly. Yeah,
so it's but I think the trend would hold true regardless,
Like I think this season. To me, the biggest thing

(58:15):
this season is there are just good rewards along every
step of the way from plus. I think the really
cool thing is there's that there's a reward for getting
like three K score, which is a higher step than
there's ever been before, and that means that there's something
to do past getting you know, Keiso master, right, which
is fairly low. Right, there's like there's a two K reward,
a two point five K reward, a three K reward,

(58:37):
and so people are just like, you have incentive to
push all the way up to thirteen's for an achievement
before than that long chasm before title. And I think
that's led to a lot of people kind of being like, Okay,
I guess I'll go for this, right.

Speaker 3 (58:49):
That was kind of a suggestion in the past, Right,
we felt like there wasn't a bridge. There wasn't a
bridge to getting the higher level, and they've just added
more little breadcrumbs for you to do and people are
actually doing it. And I one thing before the tiers,
you guys said that the I think Dorky said on
the PTR just seemed like they wanted these dungeons to
be way easier the requirement. We talked about this very

(59:09):
briefly in the podcast, uh the Teerless podcast, but like
the Civilian dude talked to my backyard, which, by the way,
a ton of comments on the last video that did
not listen to our literal description of civilian at all
before commenting about what they were, Like, dude, he doesn't
understand civilians are not three k io and we literally

(59:30):
described exactly why they are and never mind.

Speaker 2 (59:34):
Okay, but civilians are not casuals.

Speaker 1 (59:36):
Yeah, yeah, exactly, and some are some are low I right,
you can yeah that io is not yeah.

Speaker 3 (59:42):
And also we're all making it up right exactly, so
we're literally telling you what we mean by that. But
it's just like civilian and casual. I think civilian. Some
people hear the word civilian just instantly get defensemen mad too.
I think that's part of it. Like I think some
person somebody just heard that and then just went right
to the comment section, which I gotta respect that just
being mad Ale time. But yeah, so one thing he

(01:00:02):
mentioned was like, yeah, last season, I was doing it,
but man, I just couldn't like the amount of stuff.
And this is I could tell. This was not like
his brain being warped by just constant the narrative online
and in comment sections and on Twitter about like how
dungeons are too hard. He's just like a full natty
fucking gamer. He doesn't listen to any of the stuff,

(01:00:23):
which exactly you listen to our description of civilian is
literally the description of that. And he was just saying, like, dude,
I just there's just so much going on, Like I
just feel like they're losing me with Mythic plus now
because it's just like you're losing kind of what makes
it really fun and repeatable and they're trying to make
it crazy hard. And I'm one hundred percent positive that
came from no one else. And he's not repeating his
favorite streamers thoughts. He's that's pure natty, right, and that's

(01:00:46):
just his feelings. Yeah, did that? Do you guys feel
like they've addressed that?

Speaker 2 (01:00:52):
I mean, it definitely feels like Blizzard has moved in
the right direction. Like let's take a list of what
they've done. So they made tens easier to do, which
is like you know, a cap reward, So a lot
of people have been super happy about that. If they
reduced the amount of tank busters, if that's a huge
w if they reduced the amount of group damage, it's
actually insane. It's like night and day. Sometimes I'd be

(01:01:12):
doing these bosses like say, I'm doing the Last Boss
workshop right, like the King beck of Con that just
does his suck. And I remember back in BFA or
shadow Land season four where it would just like obliterate
your team, but like now just kind of doing no damage.
And it feels wrong in one way because it's like
I'm so conditioned to every single mechanic just like completely
shitting on your team. But there's none of that. There's

(01:01:34):
like way less one shots. We don't even have to
pull up a calculator, you know, the website not even
close dot com or whatever it is. It's like a
website that was made back in Dragon of Light because
people would need to calculate what exactly they needed to
live each in every mechanic. And we're out here doing
seventeens eighteens and not requiring the one shot calculator yet,
which that owns.

Speaker 3 (01:01:56):
That's such a difference, by the way, that's insane.

Speaker 2 (01:01:59):
Yeah, and then we've been pretty that forever now too,
they reduced the amount of like mandatory cakes required to
like there's just so much less spam casters. Class variety
feels really good right now. You can play so many
different specs and still be able to perform well instead
of just being stuck to the metacomp.

Speaker 3 (01:02:17):
Part of it is a defensive thing for sure too. Like,
like I remember looking at like some of the meta
for previous seasons and it was basically, who can reliably
live a cast that's doing one harve percent of your
HP every thirty seconds? And literally the list of classes
is like less than ten or specs out of forty,
you know, almost, Yeah.

Speaker 1 (01:02:35):
And also you need to fit in mark of the
wild and fort and stuff so that you wouldn't yeah die, so.

Speaker 3 (01:02:40):
Like your comp was just laid the fuck out. But
if you're not actually dying to every mechanic, I know
you're in the middle of Brandon. I didn't mean to
cut you off, but I think that that alone has
made the meta more diverse.

Speaker 2 (01:02:51):
Yeah, VIVIVI just like done so much in the right
direction for mplus and I'm just like so happy to see. Also,
like the plus twelve jump too last season that was
such a problem and now people are able to just
enter high keys comfortably. And I feel like there's so
many people doing high keys this season it's actually ridiculous.
I've been hugging keys and there are just like so
many people who are pugging like fifteens and sixteens, which

(01:03:13):
would have been unheard of in the past.

Speaker 1 (01:03:15):
Yeah, he's doing those level keys with your main team
as well. It's it's nice to see nice. Yeah, yeah, it's.

Speaker 2 (01:03:21):
Relatable exactly, but like actually because you know, you know,
you can actually pug these higher keys because the coordination
requirement is nowhere near as insane. Also here it was
like an interesting post I saw this morning on our
trustee Competitive Wildreddit. I mean just the title alone. This
is completely breaking N plus defensive balance and it's so

(01:03:41):
much fun to play.

Speaker 3 (01:03:43):
Bro.

Speaker 2 (01:03:43):
I've been saying this about Healers forever now, Like I
swear to god, if you just make healing fun, it's
fun for everyone, right, Like, so, I don't know if
you guys have kept up with Oracle dis prieset, but
that's kind of the new wave. Yeah, And so it's
funny because Rivens has been playing this build and he's
been preaching it forever, and every one else was playing
Void Weaver. We all called them a fucking idiot for
it because it does no damage and everyone else is

(01:04:05):
playing wood Weaver. But it turns out of that, like
it it's actually OPI and everyone started playing it.

Speaker 1 (01:04:09):
Power scheels literally bigger than life cocoon on this field.

Speaker 2 (01:04:12):
You literally just give people an entire HP bar of
absorbed shield and it's so sick to have everyone's having fun, right,
Like the VPUs is having fun because they're not worried
about dying every second. The healer feels like they have
a ton of agency. It just feels great.

Speaker 3 (01:04:27):
But there's some people who are not having fun, and
that is who people who made other healers in the
group find are not getting invited. Right, That's that's always
the issue, is something that's super op in one role,
but it always.

Speaker 1 (01:04:39):
Feeling like your guy is op. Is a great thing
that wow has been missing for Like Dragonfly, I think
really didn't feature exactly.

Speaker 3 (01:04:47):
That's what BFA season four did. It made everyone feel op.

Speaker 2 (01:04:50):
Yeah, yeah, So it was just good to see that
there's like some really positive receptions to this season.

Speaker 3 (01:04:59):
Well, we're getting this.

Speaker 1 (01:05:00):
It's like Legion m plus that we've had for since Legion, right, Like,
I don't know, it reminds me of that.

Speaker 3 (01:05:07):
Yeah, we're getting BFA season four Corruption Powers soon, right,
it is anyone tested.

Speaker 1 (01:05:14):
That it's on Yeah, so it's on PTR now. It's
like you can enchant your helmet with the and it
it goes away at the end of the season, so
just for it'll be just for the season on the patch.
And there's just like a few of the corruptions, but
it's not it's not the same as coruption, but it's
there's like echoing void, twilight dev void ritual. I don't
think there's the stack corruptions. And it's only one slot,

(01:05:34):
so okay, it's not going to be the same as corruption.

Speaker 3 (01:05:38):
Yeah, that I like the cook because we've been saying
we wanted like a little borrowed power. That's like not
defining the patch, it's not defining the expansion. But I
wonder if we'll ever see the flip side of that
where maybe this stuff is fucking awesome and we're like, man,
how come for only like twenty or thirty or forty
percent of this patch do we have the really really

(01:05:59):
awesome stuff instead of just all the time. And then
it's like the going full circle thing where it's like, wait,
do we want borrowed power expansions again?

Speaker 1 (01:06:06):
You know?

Speaker 2 (01:06:09):
Yeah, I'm curious to see how this whole corruption thing
turns out. I feel like it'll be kind of a
nothing burger. And it was just like maybe it'll be
cool and fun.

Speaker 1 (01:06:16):
I think it'll be pretty closer to nothing than to
be FA corruptions for sure. Yea my opinion. Okay, do
you speaking of M plus again as well? I know
I know that this causes people to immediately close the video,
so that's why we're putting it at the end here.
But there is some brief MDI discussion that we should
do okay minus all viewers, Yeah, goodbye here, We'll see

(01:06:40):
you next week. But okay, so there's there's a class
stacking or not stacking rule. There's been a class sacking
rule in MDI for ages, but this time around MDI,
which is like it's all going to be TGP style
but called MDI. So basically this season around TGP, there's
a new rule where they're doing it like last season
where you do like there's two day ones and then
a Day two with the good teams from those Day ones,

(01:07:01):
but in that Day two, the three specs that were
played the most by the teams by each team in
their Day one can't be used for that team in
the Day two. So like if we play the metacomp
for all of Day one, we can't use three of
those specs, which uh, it would be the tank and

(01:07:24):
the healer, and then a DPS of the team's pick
is the tiebreaker for if you have the same number
of uses. I guessed, But what do you guys think
about this? This seems like such a an interesting, kind
of weird way to do class restrictions in md I.

Speaker 2 (01:07:39):
So apparently it's based off of the League of Legends.
What was it called Fearless Drafts.

Speaker 1 (01:07:45):
It reminds me a bit of Fearless draft Yeah, which
which league has been doing. I don't know if you
guy watch League. I watch a little bit of League.

Speaker 2 (01:07:50):
Uh've been watching a lot of time.

Speaker 1 (01:07:52):
I like, I like watching like from time to time
I'll tune in for And they have a system right
now where like in all the BO three's and BO fives,
I think worldwide for all esports this year, if you
use a champion, you can't use it for the rest
of that BO three or BO five. So yeah, it's
sort of it seems definitely similar to that.

Speaker 3 (01:08:09):
They except just like one hundred and fifty champions, right
But okay, I hear okay, So like the clear things
are like, okay, on day one, do you run the metacomps.
So you qualify for the last day and then you're
in the worst spot for the finals of your team
that tries to save the best comp for the finals?
Do you try to qualify with that that maybe the
first time you watch this tournament, you'll kind of see

(01:08:32):
what teams are gonna do, and there's probably gonna be
some drama or like at least interest viewer narrative and
interest around that. The thing that I find weird about
it is like I feel like most people are gonna
just want to qualify unless there's a lot of very
good things that are pretty close to each other, and
then you're just gonna end up seeing worst keys on
the last day because you're seeing people unable to play

(01:08:52):
the best things. I mean, we all know why this
is a thing. The the casual MBI viewer that shows
up for two minutes and it's like, oh zs eas easy,
same comp every dungeon, everyone's running the same team, and
then they leave and then everyone just keeps doing that,
Like that's why this exists, right for it.

Speaker 1 (01:09:09):
Well, there's more of a reason than ever before because
there's no affixes anymore. Like at TGP level keys there's
literally nothing else that can differentiate a run from another run, right, Like, yeah,
so I could. I could see why now would be
the time to do it, especially I.

Speaker 3 (01:09:22):
Think it'd be fun to watch the first the first
one for sure. Yeah, and then if it's not great,
maybe they'll iterate on it. I mean, I've I've always
thought something like this could be cool. Like I tried
to do like a community TGP thing. I didn't end
up following through with it, but like the idea, well,
I'm not going to like super go into it, but
basically the idea would be that, like you'd have different
comps from the best teams and every dungeon. Uh And

(01:09:44):
I thought that would have made it interesting just to
see why they chose this thing that they did. That'd
just be an extra level of interest. But it's really
hard to force people to do that. My version had
them having every class, the really good classes cost five
points and the really bad ones cost one, and everything
in between, and you only had fifteen points to spend,
and each team would probably value certain things differently. Maybe

(01:10:05):
this person mains a class that costs three points, so
for them it's really value Like that stuff would be
really cool but like Blizzard's not going to arbitrarily put
a point value next to any of their classes because
like they make them and they should be balanced, right
I guess. So yeah, so like that you were.

Speaker 1 (01:10:19):
Playing one of the one point classes, that would that
image would be in that class discord Perma.

Speaker 2 (01:10:24):
Yeah, like can't they also just like make points based
off of how played something new is?

Speaker 1 (01:10:28):
Yeah, they could, And there are systems you could do
where you ban like one weekend, you ban whatever was
played the most in the previous weekend or whatever.

Speaker 3 (01:10:35):
Yeah, that'd be fun.

Speaker 1 (01:10:37):
I think there are definitely other ways to do it
as well.

Speaker 3 (01:10:39):
I think there's another issue too, and Drano's I think
has brought this up in the past when the few
of you who've remained for MDI discussions have heard they
when it comes to multi classing, I think another thing
people have thought is like, oh, well, and you have
to play a bunch of different specs. That actually makes
this random team who plays less meta things like the event,
the ability to compet and you, you sweet summer child,

(01:11:02):
that is that is so natural, like like how much
better the best teams are are going to be than
the lower teams. When it also involves the ability to
multi class things. They're they're way better when everyone's playing
their mains. When you're adding multi classing, they're like wait
wait wait wait wait wait, way better, right, So it's
gonna make it even like less uh inclusive. There could
be a team that signs up that's playing the current

(01:11:24):
meta comp for the patch because they have I don't
even know what the metacomp is right now, I'm just
gonna say they have a like Mage player or a
Mooncin player, but that dude doesn't play alls. So whenever
that thing gets cut after the first day, they're cooked,
you know, and you're watching a suboptimal team with things
they can't play on the last day, you know. So like,

(01:11:44):
I don't know, I think there's some downsides, but but hell,
it's better than not, right, are we all there? It's
better than running it back the same shit or no.

Speaker 2 (01:11:53):
Yeah, this feels half baked for sure, the whole format,
but so here as I let's say, from a viewer perspective,
it's probably gonna be significantly more interesting. Although I do
wish it was in the global finals instead of so
it in.

Speaker 1 (01:12:06):
The group weekends.

Speaker 2 (01:12:07):
Yeah, and it kind of like it's like you were saying, Max,
how like a lot of people were just gonna play
to qualify. So if there's not as much at stake
to just like, you know, playing pretty standardily, whereas you know,
if it was in global finals, that completely changes the
whole story, right, Like you're going against the best players
in the world and you're having to like strategize how
you play your comp So if that's like one part

(01:12:29):
of it, and then from a player perspective, like if
I were to compete in this, it probably sucks more
than it is good. So the barrier to entry to
doing MDI is going to be significantly higher because you're
just gonna have to put in way more practice time
figuring out how to play these comps with a certain
strategy you're I mean, just figuring out how to play
the class alone is gonna be a huge deal. Like

(01:12:51):
like you said, if some people only play Enhancement shommon,
for example, then they're kind of boned and for just
just like the whole figuring. I mean, I don't I
have to see it myself. I don't know how I
would strategize this personally. I haven't been in that situation
where I'm like thinking do I play viscomp or do

(01:13:12):
we play viscom instead?

Speaker 1 (01:13:14):
Yeah, I mean I think what you do is you
do some like juggling if you can, where you know,
you shift around, so you play like four out of
five of the good specs, and you kind of cycle
which good spec you're because especially this season, there's a
couple of close replacements you could do. So you could
do a lot of work to still have your good
comp and also save your best specs and like be

(01:13:35):
banning three specs who don't care about banning for the
last day. It's worth noting that they're looking at every
run that you do as long as it improves your
scorecard somehow. So what you could do is you could
just play a shitter comp for day, like for your
the lower level key whatever they give you to start right,
and then you know, cycle in four fifths of the

(01:13:57):
good comp for the actual push keys at each level
or in each dungeon, and then you end up banning.
You could easily end up banning three specs that you
don't care about that way. So, but you know, even
the decision to do that is going to cost you
some time. Relative is just playing your strongest stuff. And
if there are two teams that are close together. Maybe
you just play your strongestuff and you're like, yeah, we're
gonna lose on Sunday. I at least think that will
be interesting to watch at least once, right, Like, at

(01:14:18):
least at least for a couple for one weekend. I
think it'll be great. And then maybe we look at
it and we're like, Okay, actually this isn't the best
way to do a class rule.

Speaker 3 (01:14:28):
But yeah, now that it's not in the Global finals,
I actually kind of I kind of like that. The
reason why is it's possible is fun to watch in
the group stages, and then it's like this kind of
stinks and they're they're not beholden to it. I think
you try. I think this is just like a little
little put their feelers out, little test.

Speaker 2 (01:14:43):
Yeah, it's experimental for sure.

Speaker 1 (01:14:45):
Yeah. So yeah, I'm a huge fan of experimentation, to
the point that even if I think an experiment is
bad as well, I'll always be happy that they're doing
it if it's like the first time they're experimenting with anything.
But I think that this is a good experiment. On
the merits as well, I will say it's probably not
exactly how I would have done a class stacking or
like a class diversity rule if I was doing it.

(01:15:06):
But I think it's it's still a pretty good implementation.

Speaker 3 (01:15:08):
How would you do it?

Speaker 1 (01:15:09):
I would do like you ban a specific spec per dungeon,
and you just ban some metaspecs in each dungeon and
you announce that like the week before or whatever. You're like, okay, no,
no VDH and floodgate, you know, no disgraced in cinder brute.

Speaker 2 (01:15:23):
Yeah.

Speaker 1 (01:15:23):
I would do it like I have Blizzard do it
and announce it as part of the map pool that
like this beck is banned in this dungeon or or
something like that. I think that's how I want to
start out.

Speaker 3 (01:15:31):
One thing that kind of gets me there is does that? Okay,
the reason you're doing not to say there isn't other
reasons to do this, but I feel like the reason
Blizzer is doing this is because of the Chatters, right,
And aren't you going to get the same thing. Okay,
you've banned venice Hheven just plays next best thing, so
it's just the same thing.

Speaker 1 (01:15:50):
The big thing for the chatters is like the nuclear
case for a chatters is when they tune in and
they're looking at like in TB or whatever. It's four
teams and all four of them are playing the exact
same comp. And this would go a long way towards
making that not something that because remember, the biggest chatters
are like on this are the ones that are like
the least engaged and tuning in only briefly and looking

(01:16:10):
so even just kind of like putting your finger on
the scale. To make it so that people in different
dungeons are gonna have to have different comps from each
other would go a long way toward like you, you
literally wouldn't tune in and see all the teams on
the same comp.

Speaker 3 (01:16:23):
Can I can I throw maybe a side thing here?
I could be totally wrong, Yeah, but okay, Let's say
the person who comes in watches the stream for fifteen seconds,
sees the same comp and is like boring same comp
and then leaves. Okay, so let's say everyone's wearing a
different comp. Do you think that person is watching the
NBI for any longer than they were Anyway, but.

Speaker 1 (01:16:44):
The chatter experience for the people who are watching at
least gets better.

Speaker 3 (01:16:49):
I mean, yeah, I mean maybe, yeah, I just I
think I don't please I don't think I think you're
trying to please people that don't matter.

Speaker 1 (01:16:55):
Is it's that's that And that's always been the argument
that we've made whenever, like back in the past when
when Bluzzer wasn't doing this, I think all of us
were on team. There are a lot of ways to
do this that would be a lot worse than doing nothing.

Speaker 2 (01:17:09):
Right, So I think what would create hype factor is
if you can get a team to just like pull
out some wild card and just yeah, make everyone pog out.
And the best example I can use of this is
when we played in our first MDI like against Echo,
and we just like pulled out like prop out in.

Speaker 1 (01:17:26):
The Arms or Arms were theater pay yeah.

Speaker 2 (01:17:29):
Yeah, yeah yeah, And then people were just like holy shit,
you know, like this is fucking sick to watch. Like
that's the type of excitement or scenario that they would
need to create, and I don't know how we can
exactly do that.

Speaker 1 (01:17:41):
Yeah, I also think that would be hype, but it's
also a case like how do you how do you
do that? Besides the way that it happened with the
Arms Warrior, which is literally just have a game that's
like closely balanced enough that some you know, some man
of a spec can identify a cool niche for it.

Speaker 2 (01:17:59):
Yeah, I will say, I mean they did do a
pretty good job balancing this season. So there's definitely a
lot more interesting choices.

Speaker 1 (01:18:10):
Okay, Uh, that can conclude our MDI discussion. Welcome back
everybody who's going.

Speaker 2 (01:18:16):
Actually, so I will say one more thing is, uh,
it is gonna be something you didn't mentioned. Is very
completely removing MBI. I don't know if you know this,
but yeah, it's just the format.

Speaker 3 (01:18:25):
Yeah, so it makes sense. So like I think in history,
if you're gonna look at the MDIs an MDI or TGP,
just the dungeon tournaments that are the most type, it's
kind of an equal amount of MBIs and tgps outside
of the few early MDIs where it was like really new,
Like I remember the Mandatory Echo Halls of Valor ending

(01:18:46):
and the md I was sweet, but like really it
wasn't the MDI that made that sweet. It was just
that it was really close. It was two teams being
very closely competing and you know, going down to a
game five or whatever. But like a TGP as everything.
I think the TGP I think we all kind of
it just has more upside. It's also just infinitely more
relatable to the watcher. It's things that people do. No

(01:19:08):
one people do. High keys, people don't do like people
can do A. If people are doing at eighteen in
the TGP some crazy shit, they maybe someone in the
chat has done as sixteen or fifteen, and they're like, wow,
that's fucking crazy, like because it was hard for me
to do this fifteen. They're doing that much more damage
and they're living this mechanic that like kills us every time.
But like when people are doing the MBI, they don't
even know what they're watching. They're they're they're watching, They're

(01:19:31):
watching lower keys getting pulled like like their fucking normal
dungeons at the beginning of an expansion, and and they're like,
I don't even is this hard. I can, dude, I
can tell you from doing the MBA. So of those
poles took like, oh my god, like like full practice
days in some cases on one pole. If you guys
remember that the ATOLL does our poll.

Speaker 1 (01:19:51):
Oh I was, I was thinking, Yeah.

Speaker 3 (01:19:53):
The snap, the snap was not hard, but you had to.
But that's because you used like every down on the
snap after you killed Rasan and you had to do
the like where you would normally go in a tuldasar
and go left and you would do that big pole
with all of the colosters and then the confessors. That
pole with no CDs was insane set like seven hours

(01:20:16):
of then the fervent strikes of grouping it like that
pole was so fucking hard, like seven hours. And then
like a viewer would watch that and they're like, wow, snap, cool,
and they don't. They don't. You can't even appreciate this shit.
That's actually impossible because you're just focused on the visual thing.
You know.

Speaker 2 (01:20:32):
The opposite is true too. I mean like if they
see some crazy pull of that actually is pretty easy
to pull off, it's just like you just had a
lot of that was there.

Speaker 3 (01:20:39):
Yeah, yeah, exactly. Yeah. So so I just think I
just think the md I was just infinitely less relatable
than the TGP, even though it sometimes was a spectacle.
I can just tell you from someone competing in it,
It's like oftentimes a spectacle wasn't even the thing that
was hard in like the Awakened season, it was like
the kiting of the that that cat that was bullshit,
like the like the ones where you actually pulled the

(01:21:01):
three or four awaken guys on top of the boss
and lived. That was fucking impossible. It was so hard,
but like all the focus was like on like the
mystereaver running in a fucking circle. You know, I don't know. Yeah,
g GP goaded for sure.

Speaker 1 (01:21:16):
I think the TGP format as well, is like it's
it's op for always having a close finish unless the
team is like so far ahead that they're just dominating
the whole thing, which does happen sometimes, but like you
could have a team that is good enough that they
would they would smoke their competition and MDI and it
still looks close until the end. In TGP, because you
always have that spot where it's like, okay, if this

(01:21:37):
team goes for this and one shots this run, like yeah,
never mind the fact they probably won't, but if they do,
then all of a sudden, there they're tied again, right
Like almost always by the end of the day, it's
there's a win condition for most teams for the last
like going into the last hour of the day, it's like,
here's how they could use this last hour to win,
which is is very fun.

Speaker 2 (01:21:55):
Dude, That's why I'm thinking beading to add offense in TGP.
It to be like Mario Kart, where you can just
like send yeah, yeah, like like just like stun very
for five seconds, you just like send it if you're behind.
That would add so much.

Speaker 3 (01:22:08):
I mean, okay, low key that that that is a
nice cook. It's just the way to implement that and
have it not be a complete meme is impossible.

Speaker 2 (01:22:16):
Bro, just draddles. Just imagine you're just like popping off,
oh and here goes a stun on the growl.

Speaker 1 (01:22:22):
Holy shit, if you're doing the craziest pullover, but he
just got stuffed for five seconds.

Speaker 3 (01:22:25):
Yeah, if you ever time a world first key or
if like you get to a certain key level, you
gain one of the things and you can send the
shell over to another team and then you're talking about
when they're gonna do it. They have like the fucking
other team's puv up on their monitor just waiting to
fucking wipe them.

Speaker 1 (01:22:39):
Oh my god, that would be so fun, super toxic.
Yeah that they should do that for like a charity
tournament or something, if they even if they that would
be so fun.

Speaker 3 (01:22:48):
Would be so annoying to be the best team too,
because like every like like Echo when they were in
their prime, like literally every team is gonna be stunning
them on every fucking dude, they would lose their mind.

Speaker 1 (01:22:57):
Yeah. Have you seen now he like did a blindfolded
raid where people were just like playing fart Noise's gig
aloud using his Donos, couldn't hear what was going on. Yeah, yeah,
something like that would be It would be very funny. Okay, uh,
let's see our Patreon question. Our Patreon question this week
comes from Ryan that says, if you had a chance

(01:23:19):
to modernize one raid boss to today's mythic standard, which
would it be and why? And I have a follow
up question for this, which is mostly from Max. I
guess how far back in history do you think you'd
have to go for Galliwicks to be a hard mythic
end boss.

Speaker 3 (01:23:34):
Oh that's fascinating.

Speaker 1 (01:23:36):
That was my that was the question I wrote down.
But Patreon question, wow, oh wow.

Speaker 3 (01:23:42):
Okay, Let's answer the first one first. That second one
is going to be really fucking interesting though. Good Okay,
I mean I have a My answer is like publicly
known for this, but like because I've been like begging,
like when Krog wasn't good. I was just like they
could have made it lay Shan and they fucked it
up Alliwicks. Actually, I think there's a version of Galleywicks

(01:24:04):
that could have been Latian, So yeah, I want them
to redo Latian and they haven't done it. It's just
the perfect It's the perfect mixture of a fight progressing
in difficulty and also doing area denial at the same time.
You get rid of one side of the room. Now
that mechanic is empowered forever, it gives choice. Admittedly, it

(01:24:25):
would be much cooler to do a boss like this
off stream rather than streamed Race World first, because everyone
will just like do the thing that everyone else is doing.
Where when you saw like the top five guilds kill
it and then Laysen died, you would see the videos
of the top five guilds and like everyone did it
in a different order, because there's a reasonable there'd be
a reason why you could do all of that, And
that was really just really really cool. Another reason it'd

(01:24:49):
be nice to modernize it is because the intermissions on
layten fucking sucked. They were terrible. They'll like spread out
into different corners and like soak some shit, and like BAFK,
that shit was bad, but you can modernize that for
so another reason to modernize it is to make the
only bad part of the fight good. But I don't know,
just like think of Galleywicks so easily could have been Lashin.
There's four sides of the circle, the ones that you

(01:25:10):
and the mythic doesn't start with one of them already gone.
You have to remove more of them more quickly. And
the in rage of the fight isn't just some random
fight timer. It's when you run out of room, kind
of as it's theorized in like normal and heroic. Maybe
if you were to live long enough, and that and
everything you get rid of makes his suppress. If you
get rid of this corner, suppression gets bigger. If you
get rid of this corner, The healing absorbs way bigger.

(01:25:30):
If you get rid of this corner. You know, just
whatever another one are those there's only two mechanics. I
have no idea, like there's probably another couple of mechanics
I fight. Uh those those get bigger that that that
could have been that, So I would I would love
to see that, uh modernized. I'm not sure about what
you guys.

Speaker 1 (01:25:45):
Think there's a good answer, Yeah, dorky, do you have
any and it doesn't have to be I guess it does.
It does have to be a wow one. Although if
you have a I know you played some other almos,
So if you have any other any fights from anywhere
else as well, feel free to to get creative with
your answer if you on.

Speaker 2 (01:26:00):
Oh, personally, I feel kind of like the opposite. I
would rather see some of the modern bosses, kind of
like dial.

Speaker 1 (01:26:08):
The classic Eyes classic yeah yeah.

Speaker 2 (01:26:11):
Because like to me, I feel like there are just
too many swirlies in a lot of fights. Like I've
complained a lot about swirlies. I prefer if there were
less swirlies on some fights, Like I don't mind having
some fights where like all right, you do have a
mechanic and then there's just not fifty billion swirlies of
the dodge during that.

Speaker 1 (01:26:27):
Is that literally? Gall like galeries is literally just like
I'm going to span seven hundred swirlies at you during.

Speaker 2 (01:26:32):
The yeah yeah, oh dude. By the way, Galloway's swirlies
are bullshit. I don't know if you guys know what
I'm talking about, Like the one where you can tank
or like you're like supposed to tank like the ones
after blazes usually where it's just like I feel like
it's impossible. Oh yeah, maybe even crazy, but like I swear, like.

Speaker 1 (01:26:47):
The little ones that come out after the bombs.

Speaker 2 (01:26:50):
Yeah, it's like big red circles, kind of really little,
but it's like red circles where like.

Speaker 1 (01:26:56):
I have a hack for you, those those ten to
not go where the big circles were, so that you're
talking about the P two ones.

Speaker 2 (01:27:05):
No, no, no, like throughout the entire fight.

Speaker 1 (01:27:07):
Okay, because yeah, they so they come out in P
one after the big red tank circle, and they come
out in P two after the spread medium sized red
circles on everybody on random people. They won't go where
those circles were, so they will try and go in
the space.

Speaker 3 (01:27:25):
Not that is true, but you're mosting the mechanism of
why that happens. So they spawned their Dathia random. The
reason I referd is dathi random, And I believe this
is the first rate boss, this is ever true. We
were trying to like bait the tornadoes, and we couldn't
figure out why some of them went to us and
some other ones went other places and it's because half
of them, literally half of them were baited on you,
and half of them were purely random, so their dathi random.

(01:27:47):
Half of half of those bombs are baited on players
and half or not. And the big circles are where
you can't be standing unless you want to get that debuff.
So the bombs pick their location when those things go off,
and obviously you're shooting me stacked in them, so you're
just moving to a place where you cannot possibly bait them.
So there's an extremely low chance that there will. It

(01:28:08):
could happen. Some half of them or roughly half of
them are random, so you could get them. But yeah,
that's that's why that happens.

Speaker 1 (01:28:14):
Interesting. I thought it was more a case of like
each circle spawned some and it would never spawn it
within itself, but I could see, Yeah, that makes sense
as well. Either way, though, the hack is just move
into where one of the circles just was and you're
you're you.

Speaker 3 (01:28:28):
Can also on the ground before they go und.

Speaker 2 (01:28:31):
I'm still not sure we're talking about the same mechanic.

Speaker 1 (01:28:33):
I think we are. Yeah, you're talking about like the
little bombs the explode.

Speaker 3 (01:28:36):
Are you talking about the suppression red circles. That's the
only other red circle that you cannot talk about.

Speaker 1 (01:28:41):
Yeah, the delayed boom explosion thing.

Speaker 3 (01:28:43):
It's like it's at the same time as blazes. Kind
of dorky. There's like the big red circles everywhere. Yeah yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah,
those are the same one. So those spawn you can
actually see them. So so as soon as those little
circles go off and pezes are like the bigger circles,
or's like five of them. I think there's exactly five
of them, you will see like little small bombs go
all over the platform if you watch a odd and
then they will turn red right before they blow up.

(01:29:04):
But you can actually see them for like I want
to say, like almost five seconds before they turn red.
You know where they'll be.

Speaker 1 (01:29:11):
Okay, Yeah, that fight is very much swirlys and bombs
and stuff, which I could understand wanting the era of
Wow when there were less of those. I guess, yeah,
I always enjoy dodging a good swirly, but playing Tank
makes it easier because I don't have to. I just
I do it as a hobby.

Speaker 3 (01:29:28):
And they have to make They've made thousands of like
bosses at this point, including dungeons and raids, so you
have to come up with some consistent elements that you
can use between them to add difficulty, and swirly is
one of them that I think is pretty respectable. I
think as long as you don't over use it as
swirly on every foss on every boss makes sense.

Speaker 4 (01:29:44):
Yeah.

Speaker 2 (01:29:45):
I don't mind swallow. It just feels a little bit
excessive nowadays, So like what I'm just playing boom, can
I just want to cast sometimes and not be complete.

Speaker 3 (01:29:52):
Maybe the over this raid because they came out with
the new swirly system, so they're like, fuck it, we
can just do swirlies now because it's obvious where they are.

Speaker 1 (01:30:04):
Yeah, I would choose lich King iconic fight. You know
Barry Pogger's.

Speaker 3 (01:30:10):
What about lich King? Just like you would want to
see an iconic character with lich King in modern raid fight.

Speaker 1 (01:30:15):
Yeah, exactly, Like I mean, it has some mechanics that
have been like defile as kind of an interesting one
that I guess they brought back on Jailor, but it's
not especially interesting. It's just a don't stand in it
or else we've come up with a creative new way
that it's really bad to stand in it, but like
I just want the flavor of that fight. You know,
you're fighting on top of the castle and like he's
he freezes and then re removes and refreezes the edges

(01:30:37):
of the room. Like that's so cool.

Speaker 3 (01:30:39):
Yeaheah.

Speaker 2 (01:30:40):
I mean I will say good, So I don't I
don't really have an old raid to really look back to,
because I don't really raid back in the days, But
I will say, like I do want something more cinematic
for sure.

Speaker 3 (01:30:53):
Oh okay, give me an example.

Speaker 2 (01:30:55):
What do you mean, Well, just exactly like what Jeninle said, right,
like the whole idea, you.

Speaker 3 (01:31:00):
Want some epic shit.

Speaker 2 (01:31:01):
Yeah, it's been a long time since we had some
epic shit?

Speaker 3 (01:31:05):
Is it just because of nostalgia that it's like the
best Wow character and it can never be replaced though,
Like I'm just saying, like, what is what a cinematic mean?

Speaker 1 (01:31:11):
Like like what gold Dan was cinematic to right? And
Argus right, like yeah, the fucking red sides cover the
whole room and that was you know, you die and
get rest on Argus and then gold Dana just like
a hole in space time and sucking you towards the edge.
And then illogin's in the crystal and comes down at
the end. Like those are all things where you could
literally just describe the story of the fight as like,

(01:31:33):
holy shit, this is so cool.

Speaker 2 (01:31:36):
Because if you look at the recent history fights, it
doesn't feel that way. Jailer could have been epic, but
like just it doesn't look epic. You know, you're just
in like some room and yeah, that's often like the
middle of something like I don't even what the hell
was happening.

Speaker 1 (01:31:47):
It's obviously not Azrath, right, It's like it's a little.

Speaker 3 (01:31:49):
Do you think it's a coincidence that all of the
fights and characters you just named are like super iconic
Wold characters and it's possible that there's just a finite
amount of those. Yeah, like a lot of a lot
of really fucking cool raid fights, you know. And it's
like like black Hand, but there's another one really iconic
Wold character, right, So like like Blackhand was also really cinematic.

Speaker 1 (01:32:12):
Black wasn't like an iconic I guess it was a yeah,
it was iconic.

Speaker 3 (01:32:15):
Was a super fucking crazy looking last day that fight
was cool.

Speaker 1 (01:32:19):
How how much is this though, like these people have
epic and cinematic fights, and therefore we remember them more
than like that makes them the epic.

Speaker 3 (01:32:28):
That makes them the epic character. Well, lich King was
certainly predefined.

Speaker 1 (01:32:31):
But yeah, like when you think about a fight like Blackhand,
for instance, if that fight was stupid instead of like awesome,
how much would that change the memories of Black Hand?

Speaker 2 (01:32:40):
Right? Mm hmm, yeah, I mean same with like like
ends Off or gohun Right, they are kind of.

Speaker 1 (01:32:45):
Right, those are ish bosses, but it is often particular
like it's a that's an epic lower character, and then
the fight is definitely a little bit less. You know,
you're you go to the heart chamber. Yeah, yeah, what
the come out like that was a version of I'm
trying to make that happen and it wasn't a school.

Speaker 2 (01:33:02):
And it's not like they couldn't have made these bosses
cool too, Like they could have made for Rock do
some crazy ship. But he's just kind of like a
little drag fear of the entire time. He just does
some attacks and he transformed to a big dragon.

Speaker 3 (01:33:13):
And then they did something cinematic recently bro Cauldron of Carnage.
Holy fuck, that is real.

Speaker 1 (01:33:20):
It's just like, you know, cinematic difficult end boss is
a yeah.

Speaker 3 (01:33:25):
It's a good point. You'd have to go and look
back as to like when was the last one and
why did they why did they stop happening? There's there's
been a lot of like, uh like non end bosses
that have been cinematic. They're like star Augur while very
difficult was also just like the way it looked was
just like, you know, very finite. I mean I mean

(01:33:45):
right right yeah, Raglon in that way you're like running
out of room, you know, and like and anytime you
like feel like you're racing to the finish, there's like
a there's like a cast that just kills all of you.
There's a few of those this year actually, very much.

Speaker 1 (01:33:56):
Yeah, and bend It. Both of them do like a
long ass cast before you at the end. Gallywix, even
although it doesn't actually wipe you when it finishes the cast,
it just it finishes the gas and then nothing happens
for two seconds. You're like what okay?

Speaker 3 (01:34:08):
And then speaking of Galliwicks, you asked me, when was
the last can you rephrase when was the last time
Galliwicks was would have been a difficult end?

Speaker 1 (01:34:16):
Yeah, Like how if you could go back in time
and insert Galliwicks in like Golden Spot. Would the Raiders
at the time have been like this is so that's interesting.
You think shadow Lands, you think if.

Speaker 3 (01:34:31):
We were okay, so we're we're trying to gauge two things.
So so basically just for people who are listening, like
some people might have heard that and just gone crazy.
You're trying so gamers have gotten a lot better over time,
and you can you can be like, oh, all right,
I play this game now, and I played this game
in Legion. I remember doing like CAJ and it was
super hard. Bro. If you just for the sake of argument,
if you were to do kJ now, you and anyone

(01:34:52):
you were playing with there and now would just completely
smoke those boss. Like the rating is so much harder.
Players are so much better as there was. Those two
things kind of go hand. So much more resource, Yeah
there's special resources. Yeah. Like so so you were basically
tasked with like trying to guess how much players have
gotten better over time. I can't say about the general
community because I'm kind of detaching that, but I can't
say for the race world first that like specifically from

(01:35:13):
BFA to like I mean now, but even BFA to
like the end of Dragonflight, middle of Dragonfly, the every
single tier the guilds were getting like noticeably better. They're
recruiting better, better players. So like, if you're comparing Old
Race World first to like Galliwick's and you had to
figure the boss out too, is that an element that matters?
Are you talking about like your all's experience with it?

(01:35:35):
I don't know, but Shadow Lands no, I mean if
you if you had this instead of like sylvanis I don't.
I don't know about Shadow Like, what does difficult end
boss mean? What do you mean by that? Like suitable?

Speaker 1 (01:35:52):
Yeah? Would people have found it harder? Would it have
had a higher a lower pool count than silve Right
if it had been in that spot.

Speaker 3 (01:35:59):
Sylvan was harder, it would have it would have even
even gauging for time. Man. I really I've said this before,
but I really think Sarkreth and Galliwicks are like very
similar first kill like pole counts say that to be true,
but also just in general, and we're also way better
now than we were on Sarkreth too. I want to

(01:36:25):
say for sure, Legion like one percent if Galliwicks is
an end boss in Legion. That's not something people are
going to look back on and be like, this was
so much easier than the rest of those bosses. It
would have been like pretty normal when we're getting to BFA. Yeah,
well they, I mean they weren't. Like that's the thing,

(01:36:45):
like Gahoon was like three hundred poles or something like that,
Like dude, Gahoon would get at it would be it
would get astro shipped on by today's guild. So like
I I think probably Gahoon Jane. I don't know, Eternal
Palace was so weird because like hundreds of those poles
were just on an unkillable phase. The zoth Man there's

(01:37:08):
really not a lot going on in a zath Man,
Like it's it's not that hard, like I it's it's
like end of BFA, But I don't want to say
beginning of shadow Lands. I don't know. I feel like
the guilds, because the guilds, at least if we're talking
world first, got so much better then.

Speaker 2 (01:37:22):
Yeah, I mean even like uh Casilnafria boss whatever his
name is, is like hell, that boss was still pretty
easy compared to.

Speaker 3 (01:37:31):
Aardon Athras was one hundred and thirty poles, right, like,
only thirty more poles than World First Gallowicks. Uh, but
Massacre was just harder than everything on Gallywicks alone.

Speaker 2 (01:37:42):
Is that true? I don't feel any feel like mac.

Speaker 1 (01:37:44):
Was hard man a lot for the one of the nerves.

Speaker 2 (01:37:50):
Right oh yeah, okay, maybe maybe I didn't really catch Venis,
but you.

Speaker 3 (01:37:54):
Basically so the reason like most end bosses die for
World First and then people killed them in less time
than that because it's nerve by gear. But Galliwick's Massacre
was the great equalizer. You could not kill Danathrius until
the worst player in your guild was going to consistently
live Massacre in P two and P three.

Speaker 2 (01:38:10):
To be fair, though, I do feel like Massacre was
hardest fuck to see.

Speaker 3 (01:38:13):
Yeah, that's the difficulty that web That's part of why
web Blades was probably the hardest mechanic ever. Was like
the animation of the line going away.

Speaker 2 (01:38:22):
And it still being able to do damage to you,
right that well, I mean, but it was just like
straight apart to see because that was during the era
of like it was Red on Red.

Speaker 1 (01:38:28):
Yeah, red on Red.

Speaker 3 (01:38:29):
It was just like impossible to see that's real ship.
Though it was also really fast. This is really fast,
Like you could just make a decision of like I'm
going to be safe here and then it's not, and
then you have no way out and you die and
it's one shot.

Speaker 2 (01:38:40):
Uh.

Speaker 3 (01:38:42):
I don't know if they ended on nerving that.

Speaker 1 (01:38:43):
I was actually thinking I'm pretty sure they nerved speed
of mask. I think maybe I'm losening thing.

Speaker 3 (01:38:47):
I mean, if they did, that would have been like
the biggest nerve for that fight, because like Gear nerved
the fuck out of that fight. Oh dude. Also, yo,
another thought that was that tier and Sylvanas was the
last tier where we had damage stopped in Farm and Progression. Yeah,
have you guys noticed that those are back.

Speaker 1 (01:39:04):
Yeah, they're back for the first time in like four years,
and it has a massive damage stop as well, Like
if you do band it faster. It's so cringe.

Speaker 3 (01:39:12):
Yeah, because the order that everyone's used for us in Progression,
which by the way, we're about to change on Farm
for this exact reason is you do shot and flame
last and shot and bomb fifth. But when you push
the last phase on Mythic, it puts both of those
coils directly in the center of the room, and that
really sucks. So you have to wait until the sixth

(01:39:34):
ads die and you dunk the sixth thing. The alternative
is you have to come up with a completely different order,
which we will be doing shortly.

Speaker 2 (01:39:42):
But yeah, it's uh, but that's definitely not the last
time because there was that dragonfly second tears. What was
the boss before soccer reff?

Speaker 3 (01:39:56):
Yeah, why would you wait on?

Speaker 1 (01:39:58):
Well, you couldn't damage him below a certain amount right
when the Oh no you could, right, Yeah, you need
to like kill all the P two ads before you.

Speaker 3 (01:40:08):
Oh this is deep into farm. Yeah, so it phased
hto P three when you got him to a certain
HP percentage or when you killed enough ads. But if
you phased him before that third ad died, I think
maybe something happened. But basically you're talking about like this
used to be. Here's the reason why what happened with
phases in the past and they're just bringing back is

(01:40:30):
it would be like this phase starts at forty percent,
this phase starts at seventy percent, like Danathres or you
know one arm Bandit or Muggsy. They didn't do those
for years because specifically vent Thur Muonkin actually because like
usually you would just like fuck around, like who cares,

(01:40:50):
but the fact that Van through Muonkin existed meant that
you were going to wait because it's like so powerful.
And then they just stopped making it forever because the
feedback was stopping damage sucks. So now they do the
Sarkreth phase it right, where the phase is two minutes
long and then it ends p one Gallywick's on Heroic.
The phase is two minutes long and then it ends,
and then it moved on to the next one, and
there are damage thresholds, but they're really really like, yeah, you.

Speaker 1 (01:41:12):
Can't hit them unless you're way over gearing the fight
on the hide.

Speaker 3 (01:41:14):
Yeah, exactly. So like that, that's how they've designed fights
almost exclusively for the last three years. And now they're
kind of back, and I can tell you from a
little bit of farm, damage stopping feels just as bad.
And I'm not sure I'm a big fan of it
being back.

Speaker 1 (01:41:29):
Yeah, do you remember they nerved sires. They literally nerfed
the damage stop on side. They were like, okay, this
it pushes at a lower percent now and also does
fifteen more seconds before pushing, right, They like simultaneously nerf
the time and.

Speaker 3 (01:41:44):
Yeah, because you would wait like a long time like
you'd be stomping damage on d Nathreis for like thirty
plus seconds. A question, what's the worst damage stop that
you guys can remember, because I can remember one and
it's not even close. In VFA it was a cool one.
Yeahs a cool B one.

Speaker 1 (01:42:03):
Yeah, but kealth Is you did it seven times over
the course of the fight.

Speaker 3 (01:42:08):
B Maybe keilth is On's worst. Actually yeahnutes to come back.

Speaker 1 (01:42:12):
Yeah, they're both atrocias.

Speaker 3 (01:42:16):
Yeah, I feel like it's cool.

Speaker 1 (01:42:18):
I was playing Allie Shammon on It's the cool and
I meleeed that boss fifty times. In P one, I
was in Ghost Ghost Will Form just I scratched that
thing up. I was doing big dam.

Speaker 2 (01:42:29):
The one I hate is Zionmox because it just completely
changes the fight. It's like you actively brief the hell
out of your rate if you do so much, Davis,
where's the other fights that you can kind of manage
if something bad happens.

Speaker 1 (01:42:46):
Yeah, it's a good common. That was a good One's
all right?

Speaker 3 (01:42:50):
Damn, this are we just long podcasters? Now?

Speaker 2 (01:42:53):
I think, what do you want to say about the
whole You said, Yeah, it's something you want to talk about.

Speaker 1 (01:42:59):
Yeah, yeah, I think that was the question was like
if you replaced Galliwicks with any of these other bosses,
or like how far back in time would you have
to go for it to be hard or like a
harder end boss than any see I want if that
were Yeah, I.

Speaker 3 (01:43:13):
Think another thing that's interesting about that is enjoyable. But
the thing is, it sounds like a lot of people
have enjoyed Galliwicks. They haven't walked away saying that they
hated this. I think there's a certain.

Speaker 2 (01:43:22):
Many people have reached ver yet, so yeah, we have
to wait to see it.

Speaker 3 (01:43:25):
And I think there's a lot of guilds at the
top that just expect a challenge. They're playing the game
to be challenged in rating and they got to a
boss and end boss that's supposed to do that, and
it did do that.

Speaker 1 (01:43:34):
Like the reaction from your guild and my guild was
like laughing at this fight.

Speaker 3 (01:43:38):
Right or yeah, exactly like you see the THHD screen.

Speaker 1 (01:43:40):
But like in MI Guilds, on Pull thirty seven, we
reached phase two for the first time and we brought
the boss to twenty seven percent HP and we were
just like, you know there, obviously we knew it was
that easy. We knew that Echo killed it in fifty
poles or whatever, but like we got the we we
we were there doing the phase and just like, is
this is it really this easy? And like, obviously it's

(01:44:01):
not going to be that easy for everybody, but I
think that, you know the fact that it can be
depending on you know, when you kill Muggsy and all
this stuff, Muggsy may have been way harder because that's
a way more gear dependent fight. So over time, Muggsy
is getting easier faster than Galley's getting easier, for sure,
but because Gallley like doesn't have a check on it

(01:44:22):
in the same way that Muggsy does, I don't know.

Speaker 2 (01:44:25):
It's yeah, dude, either you guys are Bill diff or
we just fucking suck, because.

Speaker 1 (01:44:28):
I think it's I think it is the fact that, like,
like Muggsy, I think I do think Mugsy is getting
a lot easier than Galli Wigs is week over week.
Like if you give me two automobiles on Mugsy, that
makes the fight dramatically easier. You give me two automobles
on Gallywix and it doesn't really change much. Like you
kind of still just do the exact same things to
kill the boss. It's just like, now a little bit
more lenient on a two percent wipe is now a kill,

(01:44:51):
but like getting to a two percent wipe is equally easy.
I don't know that's that's maybe it's just that, or
maybe it's a fight that like PREP works really well
on as well.

Speaker 3 (01:44:59):
Gall Yeah, oh, I would definitely, I definitely think PREP.
I think I think there are guilds that are pretty
close in skill level that will show up to rate
and be like, well, someone killed this boss of fifty polls,
it's probably easy, right, And then another that still respects
it and shows up and is like, well, here are
some really important things to know, and they can talk
about the boss for legit fifteen minutes and save hours

(01:45:20):
of attempts because of that fifteen minutes, rather than everyone
having to learn things individually. I was gonna say the
thing about Galax being enjoyable, there's something that happens in
Final Fantasy. It's an interesting phenomenon that I I think
could really benefit WOW and Galloways made me think this
more than anything else. There are Final Fantasy guilds that

(01:45:41):
a decent amount of them, and they're not groups they're
called statics.

Speaker 1 (01:45:46):
God, they just have to come up with some obnoxious
and yeah, that's what.

Speaker 2 (01:45:50):
They could be called in a lot of games, because
that's what we called it back.

Speaker 3 (01:45:52):
In Okay, well guess what dorky Their specs are called
jobs by the way.

Speaker 2 (01:45:56):
Okay, well not completely nonsense, no, but the static part
is pretty dorable, like a lot of all right dorky silence.

Speaker 3 (01:46:03):
All right, so okay, he said, Okay, I can't believe
he's ripped an Okay.

Speaker 1 (01:46:12):
He's just so used to it this podcast. Silence.

Speaker 3 (01:46:17):
By the way, have you guys ever said silence to
another adult and meant it? That's an insane thing to say,
like like just in general, just fucking silence. Okay. These
these teams, they progress the raid blind ultimates, uh savages,
but they like they know that information's out there, but

(01:46:38):
they're like, we're gonna figure this out on our own.
No one does this as wow, because it's just too hard,
like you would just be it's just too much time. Uh,
it's just not worth it, Like no one wants to
people already spending in some cases most cases months doing this.
Why why would you make this potentially not doable in time?
Or it's just not an option. But if they made rating,
and I'm not I don't even know if they'm necessarily

(01:46:58):
advocating for this, because uh, this would suck for me,
But if they made rating easier, if if you expected
a boss like Galliwicks, could a guild like yours, Dratonos
be like, you know what, we want to do this
blind because it wouldn't take that much longer, but it
would be fucking fun.

Speaker 1 (01:47:17):
It would be so fun. I feel like Gallowax should
be like two hundred bowles or something for us if
we were doing it blind, or maybe more. But like,
that's because we don't have the muscle to do that. Bill,
you're not used to doing it.

Speaker 3 (01:47:27):
You're not used to doing it. But I think it'd
be hard. You'd have dissenters in the guild to be like,
why don't we just look at this video. You'd actually
have people in the guild definitely look up the video
and give suggestions, you know, but like, yeah, exactly, But
like I'm I'm telling you, we had so much fucking
fun on Galiwicks and and it and it's still this.
This is a guild that like we want bosses to

(01:47:48):
be as hard as they can possibly be within reason. Uh,
and it was still just so much fun just because
we got to do that. And I just wonder if
there's ever a world in Wow where it would make
sense to have guilds blind progress things, because I think, man,
is that just such a fun boss to do that on?

Speaker 2 (01:48:05):
So I think you're underestimate the amount of people that
actually do blind products. I'm sure there's plenty of guilds
and groups out there that blind products.

Speaker 3 (01:48:14):
Wait do you mean do you mean Final Fantasy?

Speaker 4 (01:48:16):
Oh?

Speaker 2 (01:48:17):
No?

Speaker 3 (01:48:17):
And in Wow, no, no one blind products?

Speaker 4 (01:48:19):
Wow.

Speaker 2 (01:48:20):
No, it definitely goes out here.

Speaker 3 (01:48:23):
Huh. I am personally, I am personally okay for if
anyone that is in part of one of these teams.
I am sorry for slandering and saying no one does this,
like I actually want to know, because to my knowledge,
there is literally a kind of single there's not a
single guild that does this in mythic none, and and
and if they do, that's fucking awesome, and I want

(01:48:43):
to know about them, and I want to and holy shit,
I want to watch them progress. Please stream that like
that is amazing content. But to my knowledge, no one
in Wow does this in Raid.

Speaker 4 (01:48:54):
Yeah.

Speaker 2 (01:48:54):
And the second thing is we definitely pissed off a
lot of people by saying in Final Fantasy, if you
only do it because it's easier, Because I know a
lot of people who save a like do it because
it's fun. In fact, a lot of them are like
actually liquid people like I know Evade and Exile. They're
doing the new raid blind. I know Sysavvy, he also

(01:49:15):
likes to do a lot of Final Fantasy.

Speaker 3 (01:49:16):
It's it's normal for like high level groups in Final
Fantasy to do that blind. Yeah, but it is also
going to take but them doing that, it's going to
take a couple of weeks. If you're doing a Wow
Mythic raid blind, you're you're signing up for an increase
of months of what you're doing. And the main reason
is Final Fantasy, through ultimates and savages, it kind of

(01:49:36):
throughout an expansion, it kind of kind of ends up
equaling like one and a half raid tiers worth of
content if you were to like Wow Raid tiers of content,
if you were to relate it to how much time
it takes a clear for world first, that's not a
great metric, but it's kind of the only one that
I've figured out how to use. So they're releasing like
think about like this orky instead of releasing one massive
raid in Final Fantasy, they're basically releasing like a couple

(01:50:00):
of bosses at a time. And if that's the case,
I think if that was true in Wow, I think
you would see more people blind progging it because it's
less of a total investment. But with one massive Wow raid,
it's kind of not feasible to do that.

Speaker 2 (01:50:16):
So I think it's also because it's the only content
in the game, like endgame content, because you know in Wow,
there's like m plus and PvP. He's kind of a joke,
but there's like, you know, other stuff that people do,
whereas like in Final Fantasy, your core gameplay is to
do the bosses. So it's kind of like if you're
playing elden Ring, you know, it's kind of more fun

(01:50:37):
to just do it blind, right, because like that's the game,
whereas in Wow, rating isn't just the game right.

Speaker 3 (01:50:44):
Used to just be the game? Yeah, people never blind
to prog back then what the hell really actually do?

Speaker 4 (01:50:52):
I mean?

Speaker 1 (01:50:53):
Dude?

Speaker 3 (01:50:53):
And like in in like uh, like wad ain't no
fucking way where we're people blind rating, no mop no
they or not.

Speaker 1 (01:51:00):
Well, it's like the top ten guilds or twenty guilds
did right, because like you didn't get the video out
until yeah, top.

Speaker 3 (01:51:05):
Five for end bosses, because usually as soon as the
top five killed it, there would be a video. But
you're right, the top like six or nine been on
the boss. Yeah, exactly, which also has a side conversation
that era of the game would have been a much
more viable time for there to be a more competitive
race world first because of that five guilds killing it rule,

(01:51:26):
so many more guilds got to problem solve all the
way up through the bosses rather than just everyone copying
the top team, which is something that's streaming. It's kind
of solved. But yeah, you're right, so like a few
more gills at them, but but just the guilds that
could as soon as there's a video out, every single
one of those gilds is watching it. The different goal.

Speaker 2 (01:51:43):
Yeah, I assumed it was more of like a nowadays
kind of thing because like on the M plus sidle
of things, for sure, it's actually insane how quickly people
pick up the new strategies because you know how like
mplus is always evolving, right, Like people always figure out
with ven new meta strategies and people figure that shit
out so far fastbat it's in your Pugs now, like
you see Pugs doing the world first China strade. Although

(01:52:05):
to be fair, a lot of it is because like
you know, titles is always make these guy damn videos
out there.

Speaker 1 (01:52:09):
That's true. Plus seventeen.

Speaker 3 (01:52:13):
Yeah yeah, But also that's because that's because of that.
No one's trying to blind progress mythic plus dungeons only
come up with their own routes and strats that everyone
is kind of sharing information with each other that you
know that that information is just going to be there,
Like if you go to a group, they're just gonna
enough people are going to see what some other groups do,
combine all the best things and use it, which is
also fun in itself, like pick the things you know, Yeah,

(01:52:37):
because I'm just a Final Fantasy thing too. The thing
is is like what you're signing up for in Final
Fantasy with with other really good players. By the way,
there's a lot of people that are like you know,
mid tier gamers that do Final Fantasy and and don't
do a blind because it's not really feasible, but like
good players in a smaller and also the smaller group
size might be easier way to do that too, because
you can get it's easier to get eight people to
commit to doing that in twenty. But also so you're

(01:53:01):
signing up for and I've done this with those people.
I did tea with Evade as well, Like the one
of the at the time was like the hardest ultimate
in that game, and we we did that, but you
were signing up for a week or two of progression,
Like I think people would do that in Wow, but
you're just there's no one.

Speaker 1 (01:53:19):
Yeah, we do that.

Speaker 3 (01:53:21):
We we do two weeks of blind progression in Wow,
but like no one else is going to do that.
So so like it's just not really an option. It's
it's it's just you're making it longer for no reason.
That's what I meant by it's harder. It's just to
just take more time because there's more things to do.

Speaker 2 (01:53:35):
I wonder if it's also because of how much people
care about guild ranks. That's good.

Speaker 1 (01:53:42):
I think that's part of it.

Speaker 3 (01:53:44):
I think that's part of it. Yeah, And so in
Final Fantasy, there's definitely there, there's there's groups at the
top that care about their ranking, but it's less after that.
No one really cares. It's just like whether you've completed
the content or not. And and Wow, it's always like the
rank ohess, what guild rank.

Speaker 1 (01:54:00):
Gear motivates people, and you get better gear the faster
you clear, So like, are there going to be a
lot of people like if you if you want to
gear up and raid to do M plus, are you
ever gonna prog blind and get less gear over time?

Speaker 3 (01:54:10):
That's exactly And there's no M plus for Final Fantasy
players to go queue up into with their gear. They
just have the raid they have next week with their friends.

Speaker 2 (01:54:19):
Like it feels like in Wow, people are rushed to
clear as fast as possible, whereas in Final Fantasy, veers
trying to enjoy the entire journey and we're not necessarily
looking to like in the right away crew.

Speaker 1 (01:54:35):
All right, well that's enjoying the journeys, the journey. I
have enjoyed this podcast to you guys, but it must,
as all things do, come to an end. We'll be
back next week for another one yep audioce

Speaker 3 (01:55:01):
As

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Ep. 65 - Addon Drama & Current State of 11.1

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.css-14f5ked{margin:0;word-break:break-word;display:-webkit-box;-webkit-box-orient:vertical;box-orient:vertical;-webkit-line-clamp:2;overflow:hidden;}Ep. 65 - Addon Drama & Current State of 11.1