Ep. 67 - Outrageous things are happening... - The PoddyC

Episode Transcript
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Speaker 1 (00:00):
Hey, welcome to episode sixty seven of The Potty Z.
This week, Oracle has been nerved. Oracle Disc Priest has
been taken down a peg along with a lot of buffs.
Actually to some of the other specks that were looking
a little worse. They also nerved the raid, and they
said they nerved the raid. Basically is like, hey, we're
nerving Oracle Disc and we don't want and actually Disc
in general, and we don't want the raid to get harder,

(00:21):
which I think I think was smart. When I initially
saw the raid nerves, I was a little worried. I
was like, oh, Gally Wicks is getting nerved. That seemed
like a boss that could go it's entire the entire
tier or like three months or something without taking a nerve.
But then once I read the rationale, I was like, Okay, yeah,
that's actually that is probably fair. It's always a really
bad experience to have a boss be harder the next
week than it was the previous week.

Speaker 2 (00:40):
Question like about the power of Oracle, when was the
last time a spec got nerved? This is probably only
relevant to healers maybe, but when was the last time
a speck got nerved? And the entire raid got nerved
because of it.

Speaker 3 (00:56):
Ah, I think this has happened before, right, I feel.

Speaker 1 (00:58):
Like people make the argument every time there are nerves
to specs, Oh every.

Speaker 2 (01:04):
Time, right, to say pres pres was like maybe all
time relatively the strongest healer. It's like certainly in conversations, right,
I don't think Disc is in those conversations, but Disc
is a very specific healer at doing a specific thing
that the raid asks from you on every single boss,
and by nerving that it probably did need nerves. But

(01:27):
like I just when I when I saw that, I
the first thing that came in my head was like,
how often does this happen?

Speaker 3 (01:32):
You know?

Speaker 2 (01:32):
How often does this happen where they where they nerve
a singular class and they're like, Okay, the entire raid
needs to do less damage now.

Speaker 1 (01:40):
Yeah, I do think it's pretty rare that they actually
do it, because it's usually like, okay, we're nerfing this class,
but you're getting stronger with a week's worth of gear
and stuff, and like you're still going to be stronger overall,
but yeah, this one, I mean, the ner of our
Palace was a good example. I think that I think
the narr of our Palace one was bigger. I think
the pres nerves were not compensated for the same week

(02:03):
that they came in, right, Yeah, I remember. I always
remember my guild complaining a lot about it, even though
we were under index on preservation compared to a lot
of guilds. So it's kind of good for us.

Speaker 2 (02:12):
Yeah. Yeah, what has it done to mythic plus dorky
the Oracle inners? Yeah, so there's been a lot of speculations,
but right now it's still just as strong and like
it's still just as useful for the most part.

Speaker 3 (02:30):
However, when we're facing HPS throughput issues, I think Oracle
this prease has fallen off. And the reason I say
that is because hold on, I was gonna pull.

Speaker 2 (02:48):
Up before you. While you pull that up, are there?
I'm trying to think of the two differences. Like Oracle
just makes you feel really cozy, because like just the
single target healing is insane. Like the fact you can
put a massive single target heel into an absorber it's
super good. But you're saying, like you know, second Boss
of no cod Offensive famously or just like any any
like boss or trash pack that's just absolutely nuking the

(03:08):
group and you need coverage for it. You think Oracle
is gonna fall behind them? Yeah, like like any any
Rod fights. They took a massive nerve to HPS throughput
and like that that's not Oracle's strong point currently, which
I mean it kind of works out well, right. It
basically means that class is extremely good at shielding and
that's part of its niche, but it's not good at

(03:31):
just pumping out pure HPS.

Speaker 3 (03:34):
Yeah. So the md I aka TGP tim Shiles started
this week, and if we look at dark Flame Cleft here,
the top runs right now are being played with Resto
Druid and Resto Shaman all right, and surprisingly the first

(03:55):
place team right now Mandatory is playing double Druid, which
means means we're not playing Wrestl Druid for market Wilde,
we're playing it just for of HPS.

Speaker 1 (04:05):
Wow, that is.

Speaker 2 (04:09):
When when does that happened?

Speaker 1 (04:10):
So this says something good about Restdered and Moonken, right,
it says that both Restidured and Moonken are good enough
to be.

Speaker 3 (04:17):
Brought enough on their own. Yea, And we're talked about
this last week rad Buff.

Speaker 2 (04:22):
That actually blows my mind. Yeah, Actually I was about
to say when when I heard the Shaman get brought
and I'm like, bro, they listened to the last Potty
Sea for sure.

Speaker 3 (04:29):
Yeah, I will say no, it is true though, like
Shaman buff is actually so insane, Like I honestly feel
like I underrated day last week. I honestly would probably
say Sky Theory is the strongest raid buff currently in plus,
at least with like the current inspects. It's it's so good,
like it's straight up giving your DK just way more damage.
And I think if wrestler Shaman can make these HPS checks,

(04:52):
it might just be the new go to healer. Like
I don't want to say about just yet because like
I said last week, Oracle this pre spring so much
safety to your group and it just feels nice to
play with an Oracle this perce right, Like it's not
I still don't feel Oracle is Opie. Like I'm probably
gonna get a lot of shit for ris because you know,
all the healers out here, we're all ragy, booming, dumb heelers.

(05:13):
But uh, they've been saying like, oh yeah, Oracle's oppressively
OPI I was in Grouse Chavy every day and they're
just slaying the dumbest shit. In chat they were saying,
how like, oh, but they have PI and they have
they have so much utility, and it's like, no, they
don't have shit. Man like priests is so useless compared
to a resto shaman here if that has a twelve

(05:34):
second kick and thunderstorm and cap tootum like, shamana is
so insane for utility. I think honestly, shaman is so
good if it can actually be used in these high keys.

Speaker 2 (05:45):
Well, what's really surprising to me thinking about that now
is the Double Druid group. Like, so you're saying they
don't have a shaman buff and they're choosing to play
wresto Druid. Yeah, that's that's crazy to me. Like that
that makes me think that they're do they not have
a DK?

Speaker 1 (06:00):
They do ACA?

Speaker 2 (06:01):
Isn't that? I mean that the only way that makes
sense is if Restor Drewid enables a poll that Restor
Shaman cannot do. I think because this is a subjective,
huge group damage loss, right.

Speaker 3 (06:11):
Thing about Darklene cleft is right now, the biggest bottleneck
by far in this dungeon is the third boss, Candle King.
It's a pure rot HPS fight we haven't seen a
fight like this since Cogen in Halls of a Infusion.
Yeah and yeah, Like the timer is extremely free in

(06:31):
this dungeon, as you can see by how fast they've
been tying me. It's just a matter of can be
pure that boss. Yeah, so that's actually really interesting pure
healer dungeon. Yeah, but we have the second.

Speaker 1 (06:43):
Day four Healer specs have done the twenty in time
trials so far, which is I mean, that's just.

Speaker 2 (06:49):
Phenomenal, right, that's insane.

Speaker 1 (06:52):
That is is very cool to see. So I think
the balance for the high end definitely deserves It's it's
crazy because the best three runs don't have the disc prese,
and then most of the rest of the top twenty
is disc all the way down except for a brave Misstweaver.
He like a very brave bear, which you have to see.

Speaker 2 (07:10):
Without even seeing what those groups are that isn't surprising.
Like the top three probably best teams again, I have
no idea who these people are. Are the ones quickly
to adapt in one week to a new meta right,
and the other teams are stuck with what they've been
running and have been most practiced with all seasons. There's
multiple things that make that make sense. The new group
is easier better to adapt. But also, like most people

(07:32):
just play what they're good at, and it turns out
if you've run these dungeons hundreds of times by now
on disccreased, then like you're going to perform better in
that time trial with most not the absolute top tier
skill of team, but like just below that, you're going
to do way better at the thing you're practiced on
than like having that guy randomly play rest of Shaman
unless he's also played it like very recently.

Speaker 1 (07:52):
Yeah, that's always been a hallmark of like the very
best teams is that they just don't they're just ready
to play whatever right, like they literally are. That was
always the thing with Echo, Right, You never caught Echo
like playing something they were comfortable on because they were
comfortable on it. They just always played what was actually
best and they played it well enough to have a Yeah.

Speaker 3 (08:09):
Yeah, it's gonna take time too, because people still haven't
fully accustomed to the nerves. That happened like literally just Tuesday.
And one really interesting thing about VI TGP. I don't
know if it was mentioned before, but they gave us
avoidance tertiary and chance all these players are running around

(08:30):
with twenty avoidance.

Speaker 2 (08:32):
Yeah, that's crazy. Yeah, this has been talking about time.
We didn't I don't think we've talked about this, well,
we've we've talked about.

Speaker 3 (08:40):
How offstream or off podcast.

Speaker 2 (08:43):
Maybe, I mean, well we've talked about on podcast then
like informed viewers that you know, the people on the
Tournament Realm have zero tertiaries and like they have this gear,
like better gear than they have on live, but they
don't have tertiaries, and it's like it kind of equals out.
But in some seasons people have felt like their live
key characters were actually stronger because they had the tertiaries

(09:04):
built up, especially when Leech was op it. They've been
nerved a little bit. But that's actually insane. And I
was just about to ask a question that may have
been answered by that information. I was gonna say, it's
surprising that people that the three pit checks would be
so difficult that people will drop disc near the top
because because Shadow Priest isn't being played, losing FOT when
you go to the levels of keys like nineteens and
twenties is crazy that someone's healing throughput could be so

(09:28):
much higher than priest to make up for the lost HP,
like effective HP, like that effective HP at that key level,
not just for one shots, just in general is so
insane for consistency and them getting gapped and being like
replaced is like very interesting to me because like four
is so good. Yeah, yeah, ask to the avoidance like avoidance.

(09:50):
Avoidance makes that so much easier.

Speaker 1 (09:52):
Though, well, it's also like if the season is less
about one shots, like if it's an HPS check, you know,
in theory, the value of some extra effective health against
and not just effective health but like health health that
still needs to be healed because avoidance is nice. It
increases your effective health, but it also increases the effectiveness
of healing on you, right, because one point of health
now will will mitigate more damage. But just increasing your

(10:14):
actual stamina with the priest buff is less helpful against
a fight like candle king, right because you as long
as you're not dying in one shot, a little bit
of a bigger sponge like it helps, it helps the
healing be easier.

Speaker 2 (10:27):
I think it definitely helps.

Speaker 1 (10:28):
But it's not as important as it is in a
season where there have been a lot of seasons where
it's like okay, we need to increase our health, our
effective health, so that we don't get one shot by
these things, right, or so we don't get two shot
by two ticks of this or whatever, right like.

Speaker 2 (10:39):
Every season for the paceact like multiple years besides this one.

Speaker 1 (10:43):
And that's not the thing with candle King, right, Like
candle King is like, Okay, I'm dying over six seconds
or six point five seconds, which of the like, yeah,
stepping over six point five is better, but if you
have a healer that can do twenty percent more hps,
that's more better.

Speaker 2 (10:55):
Whereas that was massive number, right, Yeah, but yeah, like percent,
like the thing is is rotting out over six and
a half seconds or whatever. Still starting with that extra
how much is fort again is it six percent hp?
Making that I think five having like you're you're usually
topped not too long before you die, even in rot situations,
So it definitely it definitely matters for that health bar

(11:16):
going as your Yeah.

Speaker 1 (11:17):
And it does help, right, Like having a larger health
pool as well means that there won't be overhel that
otherwise might have happened on you as well. And so
it is it is value. It's not just a case
of like, oh the only point that matters is the
last Like. It is nice, but it's not as you know,
pivotal as it was in most of Dragon Play seasons
for instance, which I think is a hallmark of the
dungeons being much better designed or tuned than that season.

(11:39):
I think any season where fort is like required to
play is a bad season.

Speaker 2 (11:44):
Yep, I agree.

Speaker 1 (11:47):
The the TPS side of things is also looking pretty
good too. We've got a Warlock up there. Method are
playing a Warlock.

Speaker 2 (11:52):
Where you seeing this the it's in the LinkedIn production
I can share io. I think that's where I was confused. Yeah,
there's not like an actual thing to click on it.

Speaker 1 (12:05):
Yeah, the the right here. I actually share this as well, Okay,
I want share. Frank loves putting these in without me
clicking the share button. That makes his job really easy.
He loves just putting it in from the links.

Speaker 2 (12:16):
I feel like Warlock isn't super surprising to see post
uh post changes. Like the Warlocks are doing big, big
damn that they got huge bus last week.

Speaker 1 (12:25):
They well they rolled back the demo buffs by quite
a lot.

Speaker 2 (12:29):
Yeah. They were going to be the top single target
in the game by a fair amount.

Speaker 3 (12:31):
Yeah.

Speaker 1 (12:32):
Yeah, the world.

Speaker 3 (12:33):
Thus were surprising. I mean, the class was really really good,
so it was very surprising to see them get both.

Speaker 2 (12:38):
That is a case, in my opinion of Squeaky Wheel
gets the grease, like warlocks are always mad unless they're
the best class in the game, and Blizzard changes things.
They hear feedback, you know, they have people's someone's job
at Blizzard is to like a crew feedback notice when
people are extra mad, and then like give it to
the right people who can make changes to those things.
So if they're well, I hope the lesson from this

(13:00):
and be more loud about everything when you're not exactly
the best fact, but that that that do be happening.

Speaker 3 (13:06):
Yeah, you gotta be careful the target cap.

Speaker 1 (13:10):
That's true. Yeah, we we complained about that last week.
Somebody in the comments is like, oh, yeah, Max does
a dungeon on Windwalker and is immediately.

Speaker 2 (13:17):
I said that in the episode. I was like, I
understand that this that someone could have the outlook of like,
oh Max does dungeon one time on target Cab class
and we've been talking about this for years. You're right,
you are right, that is that is that is one
hundred percent true, But also are we all, like you know,
we can only advocate for like your own experiences, so
like you know, it's kind of hard to kind of

(13:38):
hard to advocate for something you haven't actually experienced yourself.

Speaker 1 (13:43):
The thing that Warlocks got to be careful of is
there's there's a point where you're advocating for buffs that
are going to move you to being the best PI
target and you don't ever want to be the best
PI target. That is that is how you get nerved.

Speaker 2 (13:52):
So has that happened in a while where where like
it's the it's the I think it was shadow Lands
was when it started, and then all the way through
Dragonflight where it was demo Warlocks and on Holy Decays
a lot they like got p I and then like
they got nerve, lost PI and got nerved so like
they were like great, amazing to bad because of that swing.

(14:14):
Has that happened to a class in a while, Has
like the best gps in the game been defined by
PI if that makes sense, and then been nerved because
of it? I don't think so.

Speaker 1 (14:24):
I don't think in war within I think if we
see something like dev.

Speaker 3 (14:31):
Nerfs or yeah, I was gonna say that feels like
that right now.

Speaker 1 (14:34):
Yeah, it's like DEV feels DEV also just feels different
when you have PI. Like if you if you're playing
That's back without PI, you feel a lot worse than
your DEV is insane dragon rage. Yeah when that's crazy
that I caught above.

Speaker 2 (14:49):
Yeah, yeah, I can't remember a time where that's been
the case. Where like the race ends, Usually the game
is defined by like there's this class that's crazy in
the race, and then like everyone's like okay, like let's
see how long it takes until this gets nerved, and
then like and then just kind of turns into something else.
But a post race buff that strong, or maybe the
buff wasn't that strong, but just wherever they ended was
so powerful, and it's staying that way. That's pretty unique.

(15:11):
I think.

Speaker 1 (15:11):
Yeah, DEV was like Sleeper great already, and it had
the problem of our new tier set is kind of
underwhelming and boring, and Blizzard looked at it and they
were like, Okay, we want to fix that. We want
to make sure that people actually are correct to equip
the new set when they get it, which is a
good goal, right, but in so doing they overall buffed
this back and now it's you know, Turbobyss for rad

(15:32):
I think and.

Speaker 2 (15:34):
I have a tangent off of that go for that's
what the show's all about. No, Yeah, going into this patch,
or going into basically every patch for many years now,
you've expected, like, if there's a trinket really good going
into the patch, you just know it's going to get nerved, right.
It's also why they do the bigger eye level jump
in between seasons now, so it's a lot easier for
older gear to be not as good as the new gear,

(15:58):
and anytime there's a tear set, we're using an old
tier set instead of a new one. It seems like
for the past few years they have like really quickly
made that not be the case, and sometimes frustratingly by
nerving the old one and not buffing the new one.
But like they've at least aimed to do that. This tier,
there was multiple trinkets from last patch that were still good,
especially early in the season you had the new Onyx Anulate,

(16:18):
which I'm not complaining about that. I think the way
that the circle it worked out is actually kind of fine.
But like the tier set with dev was so obvious.
It was like the public information for this was you
are not old dev you were not equipping the new
tier set basically ever, or at least until you're like
full mythic, which is crazy, and they didn't change it.
So I guess my question that I would ask you is,

(16:40):
do you think that Blizzard intentionally this season, for the
first time in a long time, decided that trinkets should
be good in a new season and that old tiersets
can be better than new tier sets, or do you
think that they were because both of those things happened
at once, they were like extremely far behind for the
first time in a while.

Speaker 1 (16:58):
My money is on that it was just a change
they didn't have the time to make before the tear
came out, But I'm not sure because it seems weird
to have that be the goal and then to change
it three or four weeks in, right, because like, yeah,
that's the point, then yeah, you're going to do that.
Maybe maybe they reversed course, but I.

Speaker 2 (17:17):
Don't, Yeah, reverse course, but okay, so that's what I
think too. So then my next question would be why,
like why in this season are they behind enough to
where they were even receiving feedback for these things and
this specific thing that they haven't gotten wrong in years,
even when they've been behind on other things. Was behind?

Speaker 3 (17:33):
Was it?

Speaker 2 (17:33):
Was it because of like because other things don't seem behind.
You know, the raid, I mean the raid, the tuning
was whatever, but the bosses worked, you know, the Mythic Plus.
It's one of the better Mythic Plus seasons in a
long time. Like they're cooking in other areas to where
you wouldn't argue they're behind. Maybe it's maybe it's a
result of that. Maybe they spent more time in Mythic
Plus so there's less time. I don't know whose jobs
it is to do those, I don't know. I just
find that interesting, Like why why why?

Speaker 3 (17:55):
Now? Yeah, that's that's a pretty good point. I don't know,
because uh, I'm with Drenales. It feels like maybe maybe
it's just because they over designed on the season one
ones that the season two drinkets and tier sets seemed

(18:18):
weaker even normal.

Speaker 2 (18:19):
Oh just oh okay, I can see that. It's kind
of like, how how I there are certainly less good
drinkets this season than last time.

Speaker 3 (18:26):
Yeah, I mean, well they're not really bad, they're just
like they're just normal. But last season trinkets and tear
sets were kind of insane, at least for some of
the classes.

Speaker 1 (18:35):
Yeah, they this year, they really tried. It seems pretty
hard to like move all the good gear off of
the first few bosses in the raid. Like if you
if you tell me you got a trinket that dropped
from Vxy or Cauldron of Carnage, I will tell you
you've used that item.

Speaker 3 (18:49):
I don't even know what.

Speaker 1 (18:51):
Yeah, like Florendo's pilot light or big red button or
you know Vexy's pit whistle or the other Vexi trinket.
Actually Outlaw Rogies is that one.

Speaker 2 (18:59):
But they're all thematic and cool. But yeah, yeah, like
you just know you can hear Vexy's pitwhistle and you
know for an absolute fact that no one is ever
using that drink.

Speaker 1 (19:07):
Yeah, Now that strikes me as an intentional design choice.
The Devvoker thing strikes me as this was probably a
mistake that they That wasn't a big deal mistake, Like
they probably looked at it and they were like, yeah,
you know, this is probably gonna need to get changed.
This is one of like ten tier sets that might
need to get changed in a couple of weeks time.
That's a good problem for future us to deal with.
We've got a lot of stuff we need to deal

(19:27):
with right now. It's not going to break the game,
it's whatever, So that would be my money on how
it happened. But uh yeah, how the how the new
dev set caught a buff? I mean, I guess it's because, yeah,
you want to fix that. You know, you you think
dev is strong, but you don't necessarily know if it's
strong enough to nerve it. You know, it's not aspect
that has a lot of representation. It's not affect that

(19:49):
necessarily you want a nerve. I don't know. I'm surprised
that the tierset buff didn't come with like a you know,
a little three percent or a nerve or something like that.
But it's you know, whenever you add something like that,
if you're wrong, people are going to feel really bad.

Speaker 2 (20:04):
So I speaking of representation, I'm going to post a
picture and the thing just just because I looked whenever
you mentioned like dev being really strong, I just like
Open Warcraft log statistics and just like mythic logs over
the last two weeks looking at representation. I always find
this really interesting just to see what people are playing
and reminding you what classes Like, like, if you ever
see a bunch of feedback about a certain spec, you're like, oh,

(20:24):
that's because like just way more people play that spec
and everything else. Like look at like you mentioned that
a lot of people play Dev. I see twenty five K.
I'm like, okay, that's like pretty decent.

Speaker 1 (20:33):
Several weeks post buff as well, it's been rampant.

Speaker 2 (20:36):
Yeah, yeah, this is just just simply the last two
weeks of Mythic beas Mythic bro. Look at five hundred
dog parses total. That's insane. I mean, actually, I'm surprised
there's even really any because there's been very little time
for that class to exist for that to be someone's
main They only play that, right usually it's like former
dev players, but like BM Hunter fifty K Reppald and

(20:59):
actually fifty k like one singular spec of Melee. That's crazy.
That's insane.

Speaker 1 (21:05):
Yeah, a lot of these are gonna be like first
few bosses as well, right like that, it's not uh
like if you change if you shifted this to say
one arm bandit or something sprocketmonger.

Speaker 2 (21:17):
Oh, that's interesting. Let's look at one arm band you.

Speaker 1 (21:19):
Would you would see a huge fall off in the
and stuff like RAT I believe.

Speaker 3 (21:25):
I mean, but that's not even like a question.

Speaker 1 (21:28):
But yeah, I mean, Palley's always been the most popular
spec across the Like whenever we look at M plus
all levels representation, it's also always Rat.

Speaker 3 (21:37):
Yeah, it's always Red. Red is by far the most
popular spec in the game.

Speaker 2 (21:40):
Yeah, that is That's that's really interesting to me because
it's it's well, I mean, obviously we think about things
in their power level, and Red is not a like
historically always very strong PvE class. It's just got the
most like epic wow flavor that people want, right.

Speaker 1 (21:58):
Yeah.

Speaker 3 (21:59):
It's also simple in effective. That's by far the most
important thing for players, Like if you hit your buttons,
they should do what they should do.

Speaker 1 (22:06):
Ye.

Speaker 2 (22:06):
Similarly, BM Hunter is extra dude.

Speaker 1 (22:08):
I was shocked I activated Beastmaster around my Hunter for
the first time this season because I was like in
a mythic two of eight and I was doing bomb
kicks on Called from the Carners, and I was like, oh, yeah,
I should be BM for this because I've been playing
MM because I'm I wanted to play MM this season
on that guy. But I was like, okay, BM would
be a lot better. And the the middle of my
screen week or a pack that I have shrunk by

(22:29):
like four sizes, it was down. It was like a
buttons are there, Yeah, it's completely out of place. With
every other week or pack on every other steck, it's
literally like a three buttons back.

Speaker 2 (22:39):
It went back to like how it used it. Like
for a while people were like, oh, you need like
a raid leader to play something, you need a new
player to play something, you throw them on BM. And
then for a few years BM had like you know,
had some stuff going on. It had some like upkeep
some stacks, some like they tried to like give it
a little flavor and then and then just recently they
were just like, you know what, maybe maybe it is
actually okay to have a just press two buttons, And

(23:01):
I think it's good.

Speaker 1 (23:02):
Like you're meeting people where they're at right where Like
if you're a rate, if you want to play ranged
in World of Warcraft and you want to not have
a complicated rotation, you know, BM, there is a spec
for you. And it's the spec that everybody tells you,
right is the spec. If you go on Reddit and
you're like, hey, that's what I want to play. What
should I play? The people will tell you BM and
they'll be right, and Blizzard have I think done a

(23:22):
good job in making that be right.

Speaker 2 (23:24):
What's the most recent DPS speck that was added to
the game as well? Right? OGG like that? I feel
like that was also Now I don't think that actually
ended up being that way because like it has like
a really really really high skill ceiling in certain content,
but at a basic level, it was clearly designed to
be very easy for exactly that audience of players as well.

Speaker 1 (23:43):
Yeah, dev as well. You can feel like the core
of the spec is extremely comprehensible and simple, right.

Speaker 2 (23:51):
Yeah, that's what I was thinking. And then I was like, okay,
maybe that's also true of pres but Prez is pretty involved.
But I was actually going to ask the question of
can you actually have a healer speck that's just really
easy because.

Speaker 1 (24:01):
It's like healing is a lot easier.

Speaker 3 (24:03):
Yeah, this priest was that actually last season, like this
Priece was like just spams, mind, you only have like
one real cool down you have to worry about.

Speaker 2 (24:14):
But I did. Did you still have to set up ramps?
Though not in key? Oh you mean?

Speaker 3 (24:19):
But it was kind of automatic yeah, I mean even
Dungeons too, like both.

Speaker 1 (24:22):
Even the season in Dungeons, right, A ramp in Dungeons
is press powered radiance, right.

Speaker 3 (24:27):
Well, Oracle has a whole lot more complexity is from
what I've heard, Like I haven't employed priests at all,
but like from what I've just been hearing from, like
Rowl and just like other heelers, they really loved how
simple and good DISC has felt recently. Except for Oracle.
Oracle is like a bit more complex than Nuanced, but
it's still on the simple side.

Speaker 2 (24:48):
Yeah. That there's a few specs that we do not
invite helpers on during the race world first, and Disc
is one of them. If there's a helper DISC, there
is a ten percent chance that they are doing more
healing than tanks. It's crazy.

Speaker 1 (24:59):
Yeah, it doesn't help. The disc is like bad and
thirty player content, right, like the ramps scale with the
size of the of the group. That very badly.

Speaker 2 (25:09):
Yeah, in this raid though, like it didn't matter because
there was so much burst healing requirement that like discs,
Disc would top you know, every non one arm bandit
thing because like pres was so good on that fight.
But it's still really good. It's just scary. Also, Druids,
any Druids back instant non invite, you need to Mark
of the Wild. But like, for whatever reason, Druid players
and helpers are just significantly worse than every other spec

(25:29):
besides disc Wow. Druids hard, yeah, and they're really squishy.
They just die really easily. And then when you start
bringing in helpers, that's the thing you want to not happen.
Rep Paladins though, banger, get as many Rep Peladins in
there as possible, can't die EASYDPS infinite range.

Speaker 3 (25:47):
It's funny because you're whenever you're on like more casual
social media's like say the Redded the Wild Reddit, they
always talk about how opi Rep Paladin is, but it's
like nobody really plays at a high level. It's just
to them, it's really opie because like in the right
see yeah, like like VCVA paladins, we're pressing the buttons

(26:09):
you're popping off. If they don't die, if they have
great utility, it's really nice for most players.

Speaker 1 (26:15):
Well, and most.

Speaker 2 (26:16):
Players are gonna better at doing mechanics too, because like
most players are just as simple. There's a certain amount
of band with you have to like do your full
deeps rotation, not die and like know what's going on.
And when you make the requirement a lot smaller for
those things, you're just way more aware. So it feels op.
You're like I can see everything because I don't have
to think about other stuff.

Speaker 1 (26:33):
I mean, that's so not punishing, right, Like you screpuprritation
a little bit on Red it doesn't matter, right, you
have three holy power and do you press judgment you know,
blade of Light or whatever, or your spender and the
answer is who cares? All of them are gonna be
within like a couple of dps of each other, right,
And so yeah, it's uh, we compare that to a
lot of other specs where it's like, ooh, you you

(26:55):
started a name shot cast on your MM hunter when
you don't have any stacks of stuff, like you're you're
a grief your damage by a lot.

Speaker 2 (27:01):
Yeah, but it's still fun to play, Like I mean,
I I love playing retpalent, rep peal and sweet, And I.

Speaker 1 (27:06):
Just think that's why it's ope. If you're playing like
fiftieth percentile as well as you could be, you're going
to be getting ninety eight percent of a red palate
and DPS potential not much, but you're you're gonna be
getting a lot of the potential, whereas on a lot
of specs it's like, oh, now your dots have fallen off,
Like this is really bad.

Speaker 2 (27:21):
But I think it's impressive that it's still a fun
that all that can be true and it's still a
fun thing to play for people that know what they're doing.
I think it's really I mean I do that.

Speaker 3 (27:29):
I personally, when I'm playing M plus, I prefer playing
simple specs because when I'm playing M plus, I'm the
way I've always said it is, I'm playing the game
and I'm not playing the class, whereas in Raid, I
usually feel the opposite because like when I'm doing Raid,
I'm playing my character and more than I'm playing the game,
if that makes any sense.

Speaker 2 (27:48):
I actually I kind of I kind of get what
you're saying.

Speaker 3 (27:51):
Yeah, yeah, because I know what I'm Doings.

Speaker 1 (27:53):
Into our last video where like people talking about enjoying
playing with Oracle Disc, I think was was from a
similar place that you're coming from.

Speaker 3 (28:02):
M Yeah, Like I'm focused on like the mechanics and
like looking at the cakes and stops and positioning stuff,
just like all the what was you even call it
like I'm playing the game rather than I'm like focused
on my proncs and week ors and cool down management.

Speaker 2 (28:18):
And and absolutely like sweating to stay alive, you know.
Like that's why I think those that comment section and
the community reaction to Oracle was so fascinating, because you
had priest players, you had every DPS and tank all
being like, do not nerve this. I love I love
feeling like this, I'm having objectively more fun because there's

(28:39):
a healer that's broken, and then meanwhile, every other healer
mane that specifically isn't playing disc and currently enjoying it.
Is like, I feel like no one's listening to me.
How come only ten percent of people agree with you? Well,
because only ten percent of people are not all of
those people, and you're totally right that it should be nerves,
but like everyone's just disagreeing with you, and it had
to be. I mean, you saw el'smeres crashing out on Twitter,

(28:59):
like it's the same, Like it's so so predictable that
would happen because they have to feel like they're going insane.

Speaker 3 (29:04):
I can't believe Ell was mere one by.

Speaker 2 (29:06):
The way it was gonna happen all you had to do.
Anytime something is that strong in that resentative ever in
Wow history, it gets nerved.

Speaker 1 (29:13):
Yeah, I mean I empathize with people who enjoyed playing
with Oracle Disc, but I think it was very clearly
true that you know the game is not in a
healthy place if it's like that, right, Like you need
you want the all the healers to be relatively similar
to each other. And just because the power level comes
in the form of like making the game a lot

(29:34):
easier for the rest of your group, it doesn't mean
that that's not power level. Like that is an incredibly
powerful thing that needs to be budgeted accordingly.

Speaker 2 (29:41):
And you can see the NBI that it's there, right,
Like you see four healers in the high level MBI keys.
But the more important thing is are all four or
all six of the healers getting invited to keys at
any level right right?

Speaker 1 (29:54):
Which I think the seeing the MDI representation is a
good predictor of that, but it's definitely not the whole story.
And there have been there have been MDI seasons where
I know there's been a lot of md I seasons
where like Unholy DK pops off in md I and
then you don't see it in live keys. That was
especially true back when MDI was the speed run low
keys format, not the high key great push format that

(30:17):
it is this season. But it is still some error.

Speaker 2 (30:19):
For Ferrel and Moon Can. Season one Dragonflight, you played
Feral in the competitive dungeons and then everyone just played
Muoncin on live instead because no one plays Ferrel.

Speaker 1 (30:27):
I will say, though, the getting an invite as a
Farrell in LFG became ten times easier than it had
previously been after that that weekend, but it was still hard, right.
It's still harder than getting an invite on one of
the specs that people you know reflexively invite.

Speaker 2 (30:42):
If you're like a dev evocre when OGG was broken,
or if you're a Feral Druid when everyone always wants
Moon can do. You just apply and all they see
is a druid dps. They assume that you're the good speck,
and then you just hope they start the key before.

Speaker 3 (30:54):
Shows your speck, so like they know what you are. However,
what you can do is you can sign up as
a balanced Druid and then once you're in the key,
you ninja swop to feral.

Speaker 2 (31:04):
Yeah, that's a good way to make friends as well.
To do that. Yeah, people look really good because if
the key doesn't go well, they're not going to blame
you at all.

Speaker 3 (31:12):
Oh yeah, but you're absolutely catfishing the group, you know,
like you sign up as like a firem age and
very fully expecting a firemage and vent some stinky arcane
mage pops up.

Speaker 1 (31:22):
Okay, hang on, hang on. Arcade is broken as hell
right now.

Speaker 2 (31:26):
Okay, right now it is.

Speaker 3 (31:27):
But yeah, normally, normally arcane Druid or not, arcane Mage
is completely the auction. And I hate blameing with arcaine age.

Speaker 2 (31:35):
But we're actually really good right now.

Speaker 1 (31:37):
I like how it's literally catfishing as well. What druids
are doing. If they're trying to get into a ferral druid,
that's h that is sick.

Speaker 2 (31:44):
You gotta do what you gotta do to get invited.
I respect everyone out there lying to their group leaders.
Keep doing you, I.

Speaker 1 (31:49):
Think the other side Reddit, that's true. Yeah, you just
see that it's bad, then you go out and resilient
key yet and just kid them the The the other
side though, is the they ask you your spec as well.
Sometimes I saw a screenshot that was like, oh are
you froster on Holy Frost kicked? Right? Like is also

(32:11):
feels bad? Feels bad on either side?

Speaker 2 (32:13):
Right, Yep, that's mythic plus in a sentence, not surprising.
Did you guys look at some of the Frog's other stuff?

Speaker 1 (32:20):
Yes, that could be interesting.

Speaker 2 (32:22):
What do you think would be good?

Speaker 1 (32:23):
So here I will I will lead us into this
with a very funny story that. Okay, so this is
the there's a guild that allegedly purchased a lockout. I
believe this guild was five out of eight mythic and
they purchased a seven out of eight lockout for a
sum of almost one hundred million gold, apparently so that

(32:45):
they could instead of progging Bandit and Muggsy Frog Gallywicks
and get Hall of Fame, which is a really interesting
I mean, it's something you can only do in a
tier like this, right, could you imagine doing that last tier?
Like I guess you could skip olkon court and maybe
save some time. But yeah, oh, welcome to answer ac right,
especially at the Hall of Fame pat tuning patch like skipping.

Speaker 2 (33:06):
Bandit and Muggsy two very niche unique fights that have
like pain points that your guild may not be able
to solve with comp right, like that that is that
is so value, like you were saying as soon as
I actually didn't know about this, but I was like reading,
like is this listening to what you were saying? And
I'm like, that sounds fucking worth And forget about the
getting hall of fame thing, just like as a guild,

(33:27):
like as far as time efficiency is concerned, if you
have a lot of gold and you can afford to
just skip bandit and uh skip bandit and muggsy progression
and just go to galley, that just sounds value. That
sounds good for like happiness level, you know, yeah, it's
a huge value. Are people mad about this? Is that
a thing?

Speaker 1 (33:46):
So?

Speaker 2 (33:47):
Oh yeah, there's a lot of regime that makes sense.

Speaker 1 (33:51):
Yeah, which makes sense right because like if you're I mean,
the Hall of Fame doesn't even necessarily fill when two
hundred gilds kill it, right, because if two hundred guilds
kill it and there's only a couple of hours left
in the week, Blizzard'll decide it's an extra week. But
in theory, it should be a limited amount of spots
that are in there, right, And it's like the more
guilds that get it, you know, it takes it not
only takes it away from other guilds. Right, But it's
like this is you know, it's going to be a

(34:12):
dramatically lower progression guild that will get in the Hall
of Fame than the guilds than several guilds that missed
the Hall of Fame.

Speaker 3 (34:18):
Right.

Speaker 1 (34:19):
So on the other hand, like you know, I was
just smart, Right, you're on Hall of Fame. The way
to get it to skill the end boss you buy
a lockout. I don't know. I think realistically the answer
is they should probably just change Hall of Fame so
you have to be you have to kill bosses.

Speaker 2 (34:34):
Yeah, I mean they could, Like I have no argument
against that. That's like, here's why they shouldn't do that, Like, sure,
just do it like that. But I read that today
on Twitter from Rilo. I think like, oh, it should
be this, and then it's like, how many raids in
the past or in the future would that ever even
be the case? For this is just like such an
isolated incident. So last boss, so easy.

Speaker 1 (34:55):
I'm reminded a bit of High Butcher, where you could
kill the end boss but skip Butcher, and Butcher was.

Speaker 2 (35:03):
Like hard comparator was way harder than Butcher.

Speaker 1 (35:06):
Right, but I believe the first guild to kill Imparador
hadn't killed Butcher.

Speaker 2 (35:09):
Yet, right, That was Paragon. Yeah, but they also yeah,
they decided to do that, but I don't for most
other guilds, though, I still think like Butcher is a
boss that got masterly easier with gear and imperative to
not so. Like if if this is a guild at
the same point in farm or our farm or their progression, right, Like,
it wouldn't make sense to like skip Butcher and do that.
You would do Butcher, get the gear and then do impart.

Speaker 1 (35:31):
Yeah, it's a different situation, but it's like it's the
it's the only kind of analog I could think of
of something similar happening in the past.

Speaker 2 (35:38):
Maybe, but it didn't.

Speaker 1 (35:39):
It kind of makes sense any tier, right, Like, yeah,
Danathrus skip SLG even last year. Right Like, even though
answark is.

Speaker 2 (35:46):
Harder, skipping last it eventually wasn't was eventually harder than
answer Aki even before.

Speaker 1 (35:52):
Right, Like, the options aren't answer ec or silkn the
options are answerk or silk and plus answer AC right
and like obviously answer is easier than Silicon plus a innserac.
Obviously you got gear from doing silk in first, but
it's not and the reclear. I guess that you may
be missed, although maybe you were going to extend anyway.
So it kind of would make sense in any tier

(36:14):
where the end boss isn't dramatically harder than all the
earlier bosses. Uh, and you just want to farm them
for gear, right, Like it would kind of always be
good to just especially with the way gear works right now, Like,
how much gear are you missing out on by not
killing Muggsy? Pretty much nothing? Right, Like, you guys killed
Mugsy and you got you guys got nothing from that.

Speaker 2 (36:31):
Right, we still have gotten absolutely nothing.

Speaker 1 (36:33):
Yeah, that boss, I don't believe it drops an item
that anybody wants.

Speaker 3 (36:35):
Right, Yeah, it drops some Muggsy jug.

Speaker 2 (36:39):
I've never seen that.

Speaker 1 (36:40):
I'll choose to not believe that can happen. Yeah, yeah,
but yeah, that's I think that it is something that
maybe will become more of the meta. It's definitely less
valuable in most tiers, Like this is an especially good
tier to do it because bosses six and seven are
so hard and Boss eight is so easy.

Speaker 3 (37:00):
But yeah, yeah, I mean I'm pretty sure if you're
just going to fix it, like I don't see any
reason why they wouldn't.

Speaker 2 (37:04):
How do you guys feel about it ethically?

Speaker 3 (37:08):
I mean, it's the same as boosting that's kind of
been like the topic going around, right, like the whole
idea of just like being able to buy a a
taxi to the last boss. I don't know, I mean,
it's whatever. I don't think it's like a huge deal,
but a lot of people will definitely have an issue
with it.

Speaker 2 (37:24):
I mean if you lost, like I don't know how
Hall of Fame works, but if you like lost Hall
of Fame or they got it and you didn't and
it's because they did that and you didn't do that,
I can see that perspective absolutely hating it.

Speaker 1 (37:37):
Yeah, I think, I don't know. I mean, it's hard
to blame a guild for doing this, right, Like, if
you're a guild and you see that you have the
option to do this, yeah, it seems great. Like it
seems like I don't hate the player hate the game
situation to me where it's like, Okay, Blizzard should fix this,
but also this is smart by the guild.

Speaker 2 (37:54):
That did it, and also trashing on the guild.

Speaker 1 (37:57):
The guild that sold the seven of eight lockout for
almost one hundred million gold that I don't.

Speaker 3 (38:03):
Believe that away. There's no that was eighty million or
whatever it was.

Speaker 1 (38:07):
We sold Galliwicks for less than that last week, and
we could have just not killed galley Wick wait hold
on and sold the lockout and made more right, like.

Speaker 2 (38:15):
Oh, well, anybody need a lockout exactly? We could pump
out so many seven out of eight. Actually that sounds
worth yeah, I.

Speaker 1 (38:22):
Mean you could do as many as you can do.
Gallewix is right, like, that's the well, I guess you
can make the seven out of eight with twenty people, though,
so you got an extra person, so maybe it's easy.
It's actually probably is easier than selling an eight out
of eight by a little bit, is okay? Is Muggsy
with twenty people easier than Galliwicks with nineteen is the question?
I think yes, but I think it's close.

Speaker 2 (38:44):
First time kill. I don't know. I can tell you.
In Farm, I think they're kind No, and farm Galliwix
is easier with nineteen than Muggsies. I don't know, they're
both like they both died really fast. But for a
new guild, I feel like Galli would be harder with nineteen,
like first time kill then.

Speaker 1 (39:01):
P one gets very inflexible with nineteen as well.

Speaker 2 (39:05):
P one's just hard. P one Galley is is something
that is like in a reclear, you wipe on a
decent amount of time, just a good mythic phase. And
if you get past P one though, it's like if
you don't kill it after you've killed it a few times,
it's like something has gone crazy wrong, because like, how
could you wipe at that point?

Speaker 1 (39:21):
We wiped once on our first our first Galloy sale.
We wiped once in P two, and it was to
a bug. It was the giga coils just went off.
Even though we threw the bomb in, we were just
taking ramping right damage from it. Even though we did
the fight perfectly. We spent like a bunch of time
looking logs. Yeah, that's the only way you could wipe once,
you know the fight.

Speaker 3 (39:41):
Actually, if they swapped P one and P two, I
think Gallio should be a significantly harder fight. There's part
of a lot of the difficulty is it's super front loaded,
so you can just spend a lot of your Yeah,
poles practicing the beginning of the fight, and like once
you get it down, then you've like figured it out
the fight for the most part. But if you had
to go through like five minutes of the fight before

(40:03):
you get to pe one, that would change the fight entirely. Yeah.

Speaker 2 (40:08):
It's also exactly why most like end of boss secret
phases are not actually difficult, because it would be super
unfair to give you like an insanely hard phase what
used to be like twelve or thirteen minutes into the fight.
You know, it'd be like this is so crazy. There's
a reason it's easy.

Speaker 3 (40:23):
That's how uh Farock and Tindrel felt.

Speaker 2 (40:27):
Oh Faraq was like fire at was it forarroc or
fire Act? By the way, open interpretation you can use either. Okay,
the fire Act was maybe the biggest case of that
ever because the fight got exponentially harder, going from like
seven to eight seeds, and that was only happening at
the very very very end of the fight, like at

(40:50):
ten minutes, which was so so insane. If you wonder why,
it was like, oh, well, this is the race where
every guild is wiping really low, it's because like wiping
really low at that late in the tier was basically
like having a P one wipe, like you were going
to get there, but there was just like a five
percent chance you were gonna be able to do the
last five percent of the bosses HP.

Speaker 1 (41:10):
Yeah, the hardest part is when that's combined with a
really hard tuned early part of the fight, right. I
think I think Jaylor was maybe a decent example of that,
where it was like P three was really hard, but
P two was also really hard, and P one was
also kind of hard, and so you were progging P three,
but you were still if you weren't locked in, you
were having a lot of P one and P two wipes, right,

(41:31):
And like that those fights are always super tough because
then you don't even you don't build momentum on the
progression part.

Speaker 2 (41:36):
Of the fight either. Absolutely, So Yeah, if there's where
you can have a regression period in an early phase,
it just absolutely adds so much time to the fight.
Because band oh abandon Banded is exactly like that. I
was thinking Tindril Tendrils very much like that. Answer AC
is absolutely like that, Like, like the only way you
make progress on answer is if you're in the last phase.
Every pole, and it's just so hard to do that

(42:00):
muggsy not all that isn't muggy like an automatic P two.
Once you're good at it, yeah, I.

Speaker 1 (42:05):
Mean there's some prog to do in P one, but yeah,
once you are good at it, once you're in it,
it's a lot of two polls. Yeah, unless you're griefing.

Speaker 2 (42:13):
What are you saying, dork.

Speaker 3 (42:15):
It's also some of the worst feelings in progression when
you get to the regression state. I I kind of
talked about this, I'll see how like I hate when
raids gets to that point where like you've figured out
the first two phases and then you're just wiping to
the dumb shit over and over.

Speaker 2 (42:35):
Which thing are you referring to specifically actual regression or
fights that make you think you're regressing when you're actually not,
Like which one is more common and more frustrating, Like
the fight where you know exactly what you're supposed to
do and people are just wiping to it and then
vibes get down and then you just end your raid
night making no progression like actual regression or fights like
one arm bandit where you get a four percent wipe

(42:56):
and then you're just mad until you kill it, but
realistically you need way more poles to kill it because
you're not going to at it yet.

Speaker 3 (43:01):
Probably the first one.

Speaker 1 (43:05):
So I think the first one happens way more often
in the guilds with bigger skill disparities between their best
and worst players. So I don't think it's something that
you have to experience too much of max compared to
the general population. Okay, I think that is something like
I think both are frustrating, but I think that the
second one is kind of unavoidable even for a good guild.

Speaker 2 (43:23):
The second one drives me insane.

Speaker 1 (43:25):
Yeah, the first one is something where like you know,
if you just kick bad players, eventually you become world
first and don't have that happening to you or whatever.

Speaker 3 (43:33):
And well it's also people usually just like lose focus
in the middle of the night, like where right you're
just you've gone to the point where you've pulled P
one and P two so many times that people have
like started to slack off in those early phases and
you just have like the dumbest depths.

Speaker 2 (43:48):
Have you guys rated or like helped raid with teams?
You know, just like maybe lower like you rate in
your main guild and then like you also progress and
like maybe like a way lower ranked, like guilt with
almost everyone who has jobs, and they raid like after
five pm at some point, have you guys done that?

Speaker 3 (44:04):
It's like my friend raids.

Speaker 2 (44:05):
I guess I.

Speaker 1 (44:07):
Think it happened, but some of my guildies do.

Speaker 2 (44:08):
I've noticed a phenomenon in the few times that I've
done that, and it could be anecdotal, but it happened
in like three different guilds that fit that description, and
that like regression point happened at the exact same point
every night, and what when I I've maybe I'm reading
too much into it, but it's like everyone's at work
all day. These are weeknight raids, and then you like,
you raid for a few hours, they get back from work.

(44:30):
You get back from work, you raid for a few hours.
They're like, oh, I'm excited to raid tonight. This is good.
And then you take that like mid to late raid
break and it's like people are like, I've been working
all day. I had a first two hours of wow raid,
I was feeling great. I'm gonna I'm feeling good right now,
but I'm going to relax and sit in my chair
appreciate this break. I have very rarely seen guilds come
back from that specific break and make meaningful progression. It's

(44:53):
usually like wiping until the end of the night, and
I wonder if there's anything to that or that.

Speaker 3 (44:58):
Yeah, it is actually so fucking real because I remember
when I was in college and raiding, and if you're
just like if you if you've got into a long day,
you come back to do rade night, it actually gets
so exhausting. In fact, I don't even know how to
fuck people raid, because I know that's like a lot
of raiders. I have no idea how people do issue
where if they're just like, may they go through an

(45:21):
entire day of like whatever they're doing, whether it's like
school or work, and then they come home, you know,
if they have their food, dinner, whatever, and if they
just like jumped into RAID and they're in there for
like four hours like that, that's not that seems brutal.

Speaker 1 (45:36):
Yeah, this is something where it happened to the extent
that for a while in my guild we were just like, Okay,
what if we just don't take that break, But then
it's like, okay, you're ready for four hours and like
somebody's gotta pee. What are are you gonna do? Right,
So you do the slash break three or slash break
four or something and try and not let it be
a long enough break for people to sit back in

(45:57):
their chair.

Speaker 3 (45:58):
There are there no regulations sort of that.

Speaker 1 (46:00):
No, there's no, there's no or anything, and.

Speaker 2 (46:03):
Yeah there should be, but but no, Like that's why
I wonder when you're comparing guilds that raid like different hours,
Like maybe there's a guild that raids four nights a
week three hours a night, versus a guild that raids
four nights a week and five hours a night. I
think those even those extra two hours, because both of
those guilds are filled with Wagy's right, they're filled with
people that are working normal jobs that they're getting to
the raid at the point where they're already done with

(46:24):
their day kind of right. I think those extra two
hours are so fake, Like it's very very rare that
you're making any meaningful progression with that. It probably helps
early in the season when you need to farm gear
and do like splits and stuff, but like when you're
actually just purely progressing bosses, I wonder if someone were
to do a study of the value of those extra
two hours and a full guild of workers, like how
they are well the end after the when you normally

(46:47):
take that break after three hours or whatever, you just
end your fucking raid, go next, and you just go
to your next raid, and basically just saying, like the
two hours of not raiding, how much value would it
even be raiding specifically after you take that break.

Speaker 3 (46:58):
I mean, but these gilds are already rating so little hours
and they can't really make meaningful progression.

Speaker 1 (47:04):
Yeah, okay, but well so comparing four nights three hours
to like four nights four hours and four nights five hours.

Speaker 3 (47:09):
But I mean that's like mad hours. Like let's talk
about like nine like an eight to nine hour.

Speaker 1 (47:15):
Give Yeah okay, so like a three by two hours.

Speaker 2 (47:18):
Yeah, three by three. I'm just saying they're doing the
right thing. Like I'm saying, that's the most valuable efficient
time to raid, because if you have a bunch of workers,
if what we're all saying is true, the things we've
all realized is actually like a widespread thing, then like
you rating three hours is actually like super efficient.

Speaker 1 (47:33):
Yeah, Like I bet you could quantify it. You could
do like the marginal progression value of each hour, and
it's probably like one and two are probably both like
one hundred percent. Three is probably like ninety eight percent
or something like that, and then like fours maybe seventy percent,
and five is maybe like fifty percent.

Speaker 2 (47:49):
Yeah, that's that's what I'm thinking that right, Like you're you're.

Speaker 1 (47:51):
Probably you know, dumpstering your that that hour is probably
only worth a half hour if you did it in
a fresh night.

Speaker 2 (47:59):
So how does this apply mythic plus? Like, have you
ever noticed if you're doing maybe not like a day
of Mythic plus, but maybe some night Mythic plus, and
you time a couple of keys, you're feeling good, and
you're like, man, I can't wait to do keys for
the next few hours. You take like a little food break,
and then you come back and then you just absolutely
run it down in keys. Is that is that something
you've noticed?

Speaker 3 (48:14):
Well, I mean, but that's kind of the beauty of
M plus, Like you just play whenever you want, like
you know, there's no scheduled time to it. So oh
so when you have that feeling, you just stop, Yeah,
and then you could just always come back like at
some over point. I mean, that's pretty much Greg, like
you know the Greg that we play with, Like he's
a pretty busy dude. He's like a gig a civilian
I call I call him giga civilian because you know,
he's like ultimate civilian. He's like a civilian, except he's

(48:37):
like really good at a game, and he just like
he'll like have like a work meeting, so he'll be
able to like play for like you one key and
then he's got his meeting and then he got like
dinner with his wife, and then he'll come back later
you'll have like time for like a key or two.
So he just kind of like spaces it out and
it works out really well. From I will say, it

(48:58):
is very common in Keysvo where people will play for
a bit and their brain's get mega fried.

Speaker 2 (49:06):
Yeah, makes sense.

Speaker 1 (49:08):
I think it's exclusively a wagy thing as well. Like
I think that you can just like that can be
true of people even who play video games all day.

Speaker 2 (49:17):
Oh of course, because like what are you saying with wages.
It's like you're saying they get home, by the way,
the word wagy is so funny, but but the h
when you get home from work, you're saying, like why
would you be impacted later in the night, It's like, oh,
because you've like already had a full day. You've been
exerting yourself mentally or physically for you know, let's just
say eight hours, so like you're at the point where

(49:38):
you're near the end of your day anyway. But like, yeah,
somebone who plays games all day, if they've been gaming
for eight hours, it's I guess you could argue if
they were trying real hard, probably the same thing, you know,
So yeah, not surprising, Like think of MBI practice, like
you know, like probably not something super relatable to a
lot of people. But you know, when you're like locked
in for that full like day of RAID and like
polls are already starting to go bad, and you're like

(49:58):
managing it. Could sleep last night, I don't know about that,
And then you just look up at the clock and
you're like, man, we have eight more hours of MDI
practice down.

Speaker 3 (50:04):
No, bro, that shit is exhausting, dude. I'm also one
of the people in my groups where I'm like pushing
for to hours, like I know, whatever I'm playing with
Goop would be one of the people who just like
wants to call it early or like just try to
preserve our energy or whatever, or like if we're not
making too good of progression. But I'm like always pushing

(50:24):
the hours. I'm like, all right, you know, like we
can easily go for twelve or thirteen, Like we just
gotta keep trying get resent.

Speaker 2 (50:31):
I had a conversation similar to this with a with
an NA League player that like played pro lcs for
many many years, and I was like, you know, like
what's like the main difference, Like or people were talking
about sports science, like, oh, you actually don't want to
like practice all day. You want to you know, make
sure there's adequate breaks and time for your mental to recover,
and then the time you put in is like more
valuable and like all this science and stuff. And I

(50:52):
was like, and he was like, yeah, you know, like
people say that, but then like you're just gonna get
astro shit on by a Korean team that just plays
actual sixteen hours a day of scrims and that is
so funny true for like six months, and like it's
like you can make all those arguments, but like the
person that's just playing more than you is just going
to be better.

Speaker 3 (51:09):
Yeah.

Speaker 1 (51:09):
I think that it is a it's like a characteristic
of different people that you can work on, but is
also partially just like innate is how well you can play,
you know, hours five through sixteen of the day, and
if you're bad at that, you might just be you
might look great. That's part of the reason I think
why there are people that just look great in the
guild and they join a race world first guild and

(51:30):
like it doesn't work out. And I think a lot
of times it's because they're good at hours one through four, right,
and hours five through sixteen they're just not good at.
And I think it's the same with league, right, like, yeah,
you're going to lose to somebody who is playing sixteen
hours a day, and it's not necessarily even true that
you could play sixteen hours a day and beat them, right,
Like you would need to also be or become the
kind of person that actually plays those later hours well, right,

(51:51):
And there are things you can do to help, But
also some of it is just based on your age
and your genetics and stuff like that, right, Like you're.

Speaker 3 (51:58):
Oh, yeah, you know, I am of the opinion that
you can train that.

Speaker 1 (52:03):
Yeah, that's what it's like. You got to be still
somewhat trainable, right, and then some what not right, Like so.

Speaker 3 (52:08):
Yeah, yeah, of course, there's like definitely a lot of factors.

Speaker 2 (52:11):
We talked about this during the race, which is like
something that specifically challenges this line of thinking about whether
you go later or not. Right. So, we've had issues
in the past where we would stay up for fifteen
hours every single day. We were a fifteen hour raid
night guild, and then usually we would try to cut
an hour early and like go to bed early. And
the feedback from raiders is I can't, like I don't

(52:33):
do that, Like if we cut rate er or early,
I can't do that after rating like this for two weeks.
Why because, like, you know, your biology as a human
is you are literally training your body in the fifteen
hour of you being awake that we're fucking we're locked
in right now, we're gaming. That's what you're teaching your
body that even in that short of amount of time,
So going to sleeps really hard. The inverse is also
true if you're rating what like we did this tier

(52:54):
fourteen hours a night and you want to push to
that fifteenth hour, that shouldn't be hard. Right In previous
tiers we did fifty teen hours every day. We can
add an extra hour, we're getting close to the end
of the race. Every time we did that, we played
like fucking dog shit. And why because you've trained your
body for the last few weeks. Two When it's time
for that fifteenth hour, Oh, we're walking home and going

(53:14):
to bed right now. So a certain percentage of your
team is going to not walk in because literally you
as a human are been trained to do that now.
And then you know if a certain amount enough people
do that, you're not really gonna make progression. You're going
to play bad. All those things make sense. Even in
a short amount of time. You can train your brain
to when you need to be locked in and when
when you're not.

Speaker 3 (53:32):
I think it's also a little bit different in your
circumstance because your twelve fifteen hours or whatever it is,
is like that you're in the tournament already. You're already
in real time, whereas for League of Legends players or
like MDRTGP, those twelve fifteen hours you're just practicing, like
you're just trying to get reps in. You're just trying

(53:53):
to practice, and when tournament time comes around, you're not
spending all that time like you're actually trying to get
more rest before the tournament actually starts. So it's definitely
a little bit different. It's more like a marathon on
the versus like bodybuilding competition or something.

Speaker 2 (54:11):
Yeah, that's why it's been really hard to get outside
like input on like, Okay, we're trying to do this better.
How much sleep do we need, how much how many
breaks we need? Stuff like that, And there's like just
very few things that humans do on this earth that
are similar to exerting yourself for fifteen hours a day
for two straight weeks.

Speaker 1 (54:27):
Yeah, it is. It's a very strange, Like it's it's
for two weeks, which is long enough that it it's
like right in the midpoint right between, because there are
people that you know, our training or are doing something
like league right where it's like, okay, we got to
play this hard for seasons, right, for like all season practice, right,
but that is a longer time horizon. And then there's
the people who are like, Okay, we're staying up for

(54:48):
you know, forty eight hours doing this you know thing, right,
And like both of those are I think fairly studied areas,
But two or three weeks specifically, is such a that
is a very distinctive thing of the ice world. First, right,

(55:08):
super interesting topic. How much do you guys like prep
the sleep schedule in the lead up to the race,
Like how how hard and forced is bedtime and stuff
and when do you start that going into We used.

Speaker 2 (55:20):
To be really strict about it, and then we learned
that people just kind of do their own thing, and
especially people who've been doing it for multiple tiers, they
know they know like how much how long it takes
for them to acclimate. I think science would tell you
that for like multiple weeks, you would want to be
waking up at the right time. The good I guess
this is part of the good reason for us having
maintenance is we don't actually have to massively change gamers

(55:42):
sleep schedule because our realms for three straight tiers have
come up at twelve oh one or twelve oh three pm,
so we want to wake up at like ten or eleven,
which is when ninety percent of the Pacific time, which
is when ninety percent of the guild wakes up anyway,
So that works. It's actually kind of nice. The opposite
of that is Echo, for example, their servers come up
at like what five am or something, so they have

(56:05):
meetings at five am four months leading up to the
tier literally for the reason of making sure everyone's body
is like ready to be up and play at that time.
And we would probably do something similar. It's just that
we don't have the option of starting at five am,
so I think it kind of works out in that way.

Speaker 1 (56:25):
D This reminds me of a there's a cover. Okay,
this is a conversation that happened in my guild, like
last week. Somebody was like, yeah, I woke up, I
woke up at six forty today, and the other person goes, oh, yeah,
I had to wake up really early today as well,
and the same says PM, yeah, oh yeah.

Speaker 2 (56:42):
We have a few fired up in shacks stay up
until they wake up at like five pm every day
if we don't have raid, and then they just like
look for a discord, ping and then and then they
log in at one pm Pacific, which when we start
our raid there, and then they do that right up
until the raid starts as well, which, as science would
tell you, is not smart. But it's also just they've
done this enough to where like what are you gonna do,
you know, force them to do it? You know, yeah,

(57:04):
I can't.

Speaker 1 (57:04):
Say that that's super interesting. You guys want to do
the patreon c yes, I also uh, okay, yeah, well
let's see the patreon question and then we can think
about if we want to do the of one of
the other things that Frank wrote down. But let's see
the Patreon question.

Speaker 2 (57:18):
Now.

Speaker 1 (57:19):
This one comes from Dustin that says, if you had
to pick a single game that has the best skill
transfer to high end WOW pde both the raced World
first and World First M plus, what game would it be?
And the context for this question is I was watching
virtual play track Mania and was super impressed at the
consistency and ability to site read situations of track Mania

(57:40):
players doing hundreds of runs perfectly only changing one thing
by a few milliseconds run to run is super impressive. Yeah,
but it obviously lacks the RNG that occurs in Wow
track Mania is one hundred percent deterministic physics. Then I
thought about Boomy coming from Raalhalla, and at least from
my view, how good gamers like him and Fired Up
are reacting to minutia in the moment. Then I thought
about the value in grander strategy the ability to see

(58:01):
the whole raid. Slash key and how it's going and
make bigger calls or adjustments. I know it is pretty
unique with regards to raid and M plus, But what
game do you think has the most transferable skill?

Speaker 2 (58:12):
What do you think so.

Speaker 1 (58:14):
I think we should not Like the obvious answer is
probably just Final Fantasy because it's the closest analog to
the game.

Speaker 3 (58:19):
Yeah nom RPGs.

Speaker 1 (58:20):
Yeah, so let's say like a more different type of game.

Speaker 3 (58:25):
I'd probably say a League of Legends personally, okay, yeah,
well it just has like very similar hm hmm.

Speaker 2 (58:39):
I've thought about this question so much so I'm interested
in in what what you mean, especially.

Speaker 3 (58:46):
Realistically, nothing really comes close to World world Craft because
I mean, I feel like the complexity in playing Wow
comes from just like being able to do all the
what do you can call it, like calculations in your
head of like all right, so these are my products,

(59:06):
if these are my cool downs, and just like having that.

Speaker 2 (59:13):
That line of thinking is baked into your brain. Maybe yeah, that,
and like something about the amount of information that you're
taking in in this game compared to almost any other
game is not really comparable. Yeah, I mean I think
so basically in any game, and you can even feel
this in Wow, when you're playing your main versus an
all how much more information you're downloading around you based

(59:36):
on how comfortable you are with it. So basically any
game that has similar I guess, like thoughts about healing
or defensives or like, you know, the same kind of
cool downs and PROCs and stuff like that, those will
those will transfer really well because you're just getting closer
to being able to see everything around you and not
thinking about yourself playing. You're just doing. But that being said,

(01:00:00):
at least for people that have made it to my guild,
which is the like, you know, the very very highest pinnacle,
like you are going to be a really really good gamer.
I have seen players from this guild if they're ever,
like really passionate about another game, no matter what it is,
if it's if it's Hardstone, if it's TFT, if it's
if it's League, if it's Valerie, if it's CSGO, anything, pubg.

(01:00:20):
They are fucking freaks at these games. Like they are Challenger,
they're Global Elite, they are at the very very highest level.
I doubt they could play pro, just because I don't
think almost anyone in the game in gaming can play
pro in a game that is their second game, like
it unless the two their main game in the second
game are very similar, like Valerie CS or like like

(01:00:41):
literally like basically the same. Don't get mad by me
saying to the same game, but like the same kind of
game to where if you were to shift that passion,
like I basically think my argument is the game that
you are currently pro in has to be the number
one game for you at the time. If it's ever
not you need it can swap to something else maybe,
But while something else is number one, your number two
can never be something you go pro. That's just not
giving enough respect for the people that where there it's

(01:01:02):
their number one game. You can't make up that passion
and caring about it. But yeah, any any side hobby
game they play, they like they fucking smoke it. They're
insane at everything. And that's why I've struggled with this
question because I don't find anything similar within any of
those games. There's they're vastly different games there. Obviously, we've
had raiders that are like great at ARPGs like Ben
and Exile and Impact and a few other people, but

(01:01:25):
like same thing with League, same thing with Shooters. I've
just noticed that there's a very high level of everything
if you've made it to this point, and I haven't
been able to find anything that's like, oh, while players
are playing this game, it means they're the goat. I
have not found that. It seems to be like my
take is if you are ever fucking sick at any game,

(01:01:47):
like as close as you can be, or like as
good as you can be at a game, if you
ever care about another game, And my take is, no
matter what that game is, and you put in that
same time and effort and passion, you're going to be
fucking nuts at that game. Because there's just some people
that are just graded game. I basically I think like
universal gaming skills transferable is my thought.

Speaker 3 (01:02:06):
After I mean a lot, a lot of it is
just like understanding how to adapt to your new gaming environments,
like if if they just know what the steps are
to becoming good. But that's all that matters. And I
actually recently saw this. I was watching a p people
playing Eldon Ring. It's kind of funny, but he's actually
it's a pretty enjoyable playthrough to watch, but he's he's

(01:02:27):
actually popping off in that game, like not gonna lie
he's actually doing the extremely well in that game.

Speaker 1 (01:02:31):
Okay, we're watching the same stream where he spent seven
hours trying to kill Malania.

Speaker 3 (01:02:35):
I's like, well, yeah, but I'll be like, you know
he's doing it.

Speaker 1 (01:02:40):
What Okay, I don't know. I mean is hard, bro,
that's a hard boss.

Speaker 2 (01:02:45):
Yeah.

Speaker 3 (01:02:45):
I mean he's doing it with like, you know, minimal.

Speaker 2 (01:02:48):
He's also trying to entertain, which is his job to like,
like I promise you he does. He does less deaths
and stuff off stream rather than trying to say something
funny every time he dies, you.

Speaker 1 (01:02:57):
Know, like watching him fight against bosses, though, I think
there's like some core parts of fighting a Soul's boss
that he just hasn't quickly picked up, which is like
you know, trying to like dodge in and get some
hits in while you can, and like learning that they have.
Like he's playing it a lot more like a PvP
game where he's gonna get punished by doing certain things
and that's just like not always how those bosses work.

Speaker 2 (01:03:18):
But do you think that using my argument, right, do
you think that elden Ring is a game that he
is as passionate about is that Wow Arena not It's
like it's like a side gig streaming for entertainment. Elder
ring will get a lot of views. Choice I'm pretty sure,
not like I played a Soul's game and I fucking
love this shit, so now I'm gonna go as hard
as possible. Those two things would be would be approached

(01:03:39):
very differently.

Speaker 3 (01:03:40):
Yeah, like he could if he wants it to.

Speaker 2 (01:03:42):
I think, yeah, dorky, I think you hit on something
that's really important. You said as long as people like
know the process of getting good. I think people that
are good at games, at least this is true of
everyone in my guild. They are literally fucking obsessed with that.
They're obsessed with getting better. And like when you get
to a new game and everyone's different, some people are

(01:04:03):
okay not being good at games. A lot of people
that are in this guild are not okay with that. Like,
the idea of playing a game that they're gonna spend
time on and playing it casually is not an option.
You are going to be want to be as good
as possible, not because you need to be better than
everyone else, but because you just find the process of
getting better so interesting. So if you go through the
process of oh I did this wrong. Why it's not
really someone else's fault, it's probably mine, or even if
it was majorly someone else's fault, maybe it was kind

(01:04:25):
of my fault and I could have done a small
thing better. And when you start learning how to like
look at those things and you really want to shore
them up, you can get really fucking good at stuff
really fast. And I think that trait is probably the
singular thing that makes that statement true.

Speaker 3 (01:04:38):
Yeah, do you guys have those circles of friends where like,
you know who are of a good gamers and you
know who are of a not so good gamers. I
have like a group of friends that are like this,
and I know for a fact that if I'm playing
with like this, this and this person, they're just going
to do extremely well at whatever new game we're playing.
And then we'll have like a couple of other players

(01:04:59):
that I know will be like but more less skilled players.
They're like probably more casual.

Speaker 1 (01:05:07):
Yeah, I think it's definitely true. There's like there's general
general transferable you know, gamerness.

Speaker 2 (01:05:15):
I have played with players in Wow though that were
sick Wow, players that rated in this guild that were
absolutely trash at every other game they played and there's
one major defining characteristic and is that they didn't fucking care.

Speaker 1 (01:05:26):
Right, Yeah, that's like in my guild's true, we'll do
like a Valorant in house, and we've got somebody who's
immortal or whatever at that, and then a bunch of
us that are just like we would be silver or
bronze or whatever, right because we don't care about that game,
and we're playing to you know, try and do a
three sixty no scope or something, right, and like that.
That's a There are some people who don't have that
capability though, to engage with games that way, like you said,

(01:05:48):
where it's like if they started playing a valent in
House and they sucked at it, their two options would
be to either stop playing those in houses or get
a lot better, right, Like, they don't have the capacity
to just kind of suck at something long term. But yeah,
I think I do think there's not one game that
is especially transferable to WOW. I will say there's one

(01:06:09):
surprising game that I think is somewhat or type of
game that I think is somewhat transferable to WOW. And
that's like you ever play any like resource management board
games I've noticed that's really good at Wow tend to
be quite good at that, like not always. There are
definitely some people that are good at Wow mechanically, but
not especially you know that they're not they don't think

(01:06:31):
about it that way. But there's a type of Wow
player that is good at identifying like, oh, we need
to pull twice as big here because we're about to deplete.
We're like, oh, damage doesn't matter on this fight, so
I should do this, or like oh damage to this
add is the important thing here. And I've noticed that
that correlates pretty strongly with being good at a game
that's about like like Katan for instance, right where it's like, oh,

(01:06:51):
how how valuable is wood versus sheep in this moment?
Right like exactly, like having that thought process of like,
what's my win condition? How valuable are these five different
variables that keep changing in value compared to each other?
That is I think a muscle that is surprising compared
to all of the like, because I think leave of
legends is pretty easy. You can see how like, Okay,

(01:07:11):
there's a lot of transferableness here. But that was something
that I was thinking about as kind of a sleeper.

Speaker 3 (01:07:18):
Yeah, I feel like that's a general gaming skill. At
least that's what I think about when I'm playing all
sorts of games. So I've been playing this soul's game
called Kazan Game as hard as hell that way, and it's
been a lot of fun. And I actually go through
that exact thought process too. I think about, like, all right,
is it worth me trying to dodge this right now?

(01:07:38):
Or should I just block it instead?

Speaker 1 (01:07:40):
Right?

Speaker 3 (01:07:40):
Like, well, what am I really gaining from doing this
instead of that?

Speaker 1 (01:07:45):
Yeah, I mean I think I think that skill is
just a good general gamer skill, but I think it
is one of the things that are difficult and Wow.
Doing that well is especially valuable because it's like, like
you can get a lot of value out of that,
especially if you're not in the very top guilds in
the world and very top end plus teams in the

(01:08:06):
world where you kind of need to maximize everything. If
you can actually do a good assessment of where your
where your effort should be going, that is that pays
extreme dividends in Wow.

Speaker 2 (01:08:17):
I think especially so at You're true if you're if
you are someone who enjoys playing Wow, and you're listening
to this question and you're like, well, I think a
good transferable skill could be like this exact game, because
I know a bunch of people who play Wow in
this exact game, and I don't know if that's necessarily
the best way to look at it too. I was
just trying to think of a rebuttal, and I think
that would be one that would people will give. But

(01:08:38):
I think that there's just like, for example, if you're
a Bizzard player, you play a lot of Wow, You're
gonna play other Blizzard games. So people playing like Diablo
Super not important or not super and important super not surprising,
and then the same thing in the future, yeah, not important,
and then same thing with like a pue, just like
I think in the Diablo gets you into the AIRPG
category and then you explore their airpgs. So like seeing

(01:08:58):
Wow players, I think Wow and Diablo were like very
similar player base for a very long time, so seeing
those branch out in the same way is not surprising.
But I don't think that like playing an AIRPG makes
you better at Wow or playing Wow, it makes you
specifically better inn AIRPG. Really, I think it's just maybe
that interaction, But I wonder it's kind of a separate question.
Do you guys think playing other games makes you better

(01:09:20):
at Wow, or do you think that playing other varied,
different kinds of game just in general makes you an
overall better gamer rather than someone that plays a very
specific kind of game for a really long period of time.

Speaker 1 (01:09:33):
It's funny because historically Wow was like a game where
if you looked at the people who like cleared nax
ra Mus back the first time, the amount of those
people who played other games is probably vanishingly small because
Wow used to just demand your full time to play
it right, like to be at the top level. But
I suspect nowadays that yeah, like if you, okay, if

(01:09:56):
you had one hundred hours a week to budget and
your goal was to become the best Wow gameer ever,
you probably would still want to put most of it
into Wow. But I bet you would do some like
like you know how colleges require you to do some
general education stuff, Like, I bet there'd be some value
in doing some other games.

Speaker 3 (01:10:13):
Yeah, So I would say wild back then is not
the same as well now. Wild back then was definitely
a lot more knowledge based. It was more about just
like knowing how to get ahead, whether it's like all right,
like knowing all the classic stuff like knowing how to
quickly level or knowing where to farm certain stuff. That
type of skill is definitely very different from what it

(01:10:33):
takes to be good at WOW nowadays. But I will
say something that's not utilized enough by Wild players is
to train their mechanics, whether it's like you know, training
their reaction or training their moving. Yeah, like it really
actually really helps a lot, just like doing really yeah.

(01:10:58):
I mean, like that's what people do in other games, right,
and it's not something that people are doing more work?

Speaker 1 (01:11:02):
Is it weird that Wow it doesn't have a name labs,
I guess just go and do a key?

Speaker 2 (01:11:05):
What would you do? I feel like it's most most
anything that you could be like, okay, specifically training your
reaction is going to be really good. I would. I
would actually personally make the argument, I don't know if
that's something you need doing well. I think every minute
you could be spending doing that, if you could spend
just actually playing the game, that minute is better spent
in my opinion, Like, I.

Speaker 3 (01:11:23):
Mean, I think there there's a lot of stuff outside
of laying the game, like you know, creating weekors and
understanding how to like make your UI work at least
That's what I do oftentimes.

Speaker 2 (01:11:34):
Huge.

Speaker 3 (01:11:35):
Yeah, like when I when I'm not in a key
or in RAID, I am actively trying to fix my
UI to the point where I'm like, all right, so
I'm not utilizing this proc enough. I should try to
make visproct more visible in my UI, or I need
to keep good up time on my schedule flame or whatever.
Like that's actually something I've been doing on recently on

(01:11:55):
my demon utter, I've been making all these weak ors
to help out with that type of stuff. Or like
in the dungeon scenario where I notice I'm not really
seeing these cast from a certain mob, but maybe I'll
like make a sound for it, So I definitely counts
that as part of it.

Speaker 2 (01:12:12):
Well, I think this is okay. So I have you
guys ever heard this statement from a shooter player where
they're like, I can watch a PUV if someone never
take a shot, and I can just see how they're
pre aiming and see how they're moving, and I could
guess within a pretty close margin how good they are
at the game without ever seeing them shoot. Yeah, I think, wow,

(01:12:32):
there's something similar to that. First of all, with someone's movement,
I think you could just watch someone move for a
decent amount, you'd be able to tell if they're proficient
or not. But I think people's ability to alter their UI,
just like do Dorky is saying, and some people may
dislike this, actually that that's part of being good at
this game. I think that's fair, fair, fair argument. But like, okay,

(01:12:53):
like Dorky, if he has a week or on his
screen that's taking a decent amount of space, and then
he were to watch a PUV of his VOD and
notice that he's not actually paying attention to that week era,
it'd be in his best interest to immediately remove it,
because why would you want something on your screen that
you're training your brain to ignore things that are popping up. Right,
that's really bad because then when you have things pop
up that are important, you are literally more likely to

(01:13:14):
ignore it. And then the inverse of that is also true.
Right where you notice, hey, I'm missing this specific stop
or on this pack, I'm just never really aware when
this thing is happening. The best thing you can do
is what your brain is telling you is, hey, on
this specific pack, I'm overloaded either the ability to do
damage here what I'm already dodging, or trying to stay
alive is enough to where I'm missing this other thing

(01:13:35):
that's happening. That means the cognitive requirement of this poll
is just a little higher and I need a little help.
That's what add on the weekors are great for, right,
so like you can make a specific sound for that
exact thing. And why I'm tying this all together with
the shooter game thing is I think you can tell
people's general skill level in the game just by how
much they optimize there. Ui, if you look at someone

(01:13:55):
that downloaded the liquid rad pack and just enabled literally
every single week era, and you know for a fact
when that tank we cor pops up on a DPS player,
you know they're not looking at that. You can tell
and that maybe that this isn't a bad thing, that
they don't really care about their performance that much enough
to think about it to actually optimize it. They're kind
of just like, you know, I'll just have this stuff
on my screen and I'll pay attention to some of it.
But there's an extra level with people who get super

(01:14:16):
good where that would never happen, Like you care way
too much about information flow on your screen to your brain,
and that you would you would look at that, So
you could basically look at someone's UI package on maybe
one poll and tell how much they care about how
well they're doing.

Speaker 1 (01:14:31):
Yeah, I think there are a lot of like pretty
good people who have a lot of unnecessary stuff still
on their UI, and like.

Speaker 2 (01:14:37):
True it is and I think all.

Speaker 1 (01:14:39):
Their screen it's usually not the end of the world.
But yeah, I agree with you that, like if you
do see somebody who doesn't have that going on, that's
that is a strong indication.

Speaker 2 (01:14:48):
It's a common trait of someone who's a little lost
in your key is that they are they're confused. And
we've even seen this in the race, Like we had
a player mess up on Holandrus' bombs a little bit
and I just like took one look at his PUV
and he had like two bomb week eras and one
of them was like behind his de buffs and it
was like, dude, like you're just making this way harder
on yourself. We changed it and his success rate instantly
went up, Right, So like you can you can work

(01:15:10):
on that stuff for sure.

Speaker 1 (01:15:12):
Yeah, I do think there are a lot of people
who are frustrated that that is such an important part
of being a good writer, and.

Speaker 2 (01:15:17):
I think I think they're right.

Speaker 1 (01:15:18):
I think they are right, but also like you will
do better if you'd, yeah, get over it.

Speaker 2 (01:15:23):
One of the biggest issues in WOW. I think, oh yeah,
I guess like the cool down managers coming out next pack,
next patch too. I think that's low key massive. Yeah,
that's so good.

Speaker 1 (01:15:33):
If you look at the image they showed of it,
and they're passionates as well, Like it's not just a
cool time manager, like this thing can be a replacement
for it's not just like major cool downs, Like you
can use this as the middle of your screen.

Speaker 2 (01:15:44):
Weak or pack, you could directly replace that. And that's
the thing that I notice whenever you have to play
in Alpha and you can get zero add ons on it.
The thing that I am if I'm doing dungeons, I'm
just I've trained my brain, for better or worse, to
look at my important things on a bar in the
middle of my screen. Like most other good players in
the game, they have done that, right, because it's good.
But then when you have to like move that stuff

(01:16:04):
for the bottom of your screen or you have to
do some weird like action bar thing in the middle,
like it's just a little worse and like having that
cool down manager built in game for those specific situations.
Lets me know that for most other people trying to
implement that or use that, it would be just so helpful.
Have you guys seen the responses to it. I know,
maybe maybe I'm doing this to myself, kind of like
our zoo conversation last week. But I like looked at

(01:16:26):
Wow's tweet of it. I think it was the official
Warcraft Twitter and they were like, We're announcing this cool
now manager, and just all of the things are like
just I just read the top comments and it was
just like, why why do we need this in the
fucking game? Oh well, this looks just like an add
on good job Blizzard, Like this is this is a
you know why, I'm just gonna have to disable this thing,
even though you'd have to enable it in the first place.

(01:16:47):
But like you know, they you know, I don't know
why I do this to myself. I guess I'm trying
to be like Draton Noose. I want to learn how
to go to the zoo every day and love it.

Speaker 1 (01:16:56):
Yeah, I mean, okay with the responses to a tweet
like that from the Wow account even and I don't
venture there but uh, what.

Speaker 2 (01:17:02):
Is That's not the zoo? Where is that?

Speaker 1 (01:17:04):
Yeah? No, you're you're I prefer the like drama between
people rather than people yelling at companies. That's my, uh,
my favorite kind of drama. But it's fair. Both are
fair to each their own. I think that it's interesting
because like the people that are complaining that have that complaint, like,
I don't know, how much would you complain about a
feature the UI literally the same feature if it was

(01:17:25):
an ad on versus done by Blizzard. I think even
if it was literally the same thing for a lot
of people, if it's just something you can enable without
having to do a whole add on manager and any
of that stuff like that inherently is just way better
right for and it doesn't affect us at all, But
for like a new player or somebody who's been playing
for like a couple of months, the fact that that cool,

(01:17:46):
like especially if it just has a good default, if
there's a good deep if you can just check one
box and it puts like a good yeah, you know,
weak or pack thing in the middle of your screen
like that is huge for Again, there are people that
have problem with that on because I don't like the
look of it. But I think a huge problem that
people have with it is just like it's extra upkeep
and annoying work, and you know, picking one is is

(01:18:09):
tough to do, and like it's out of date when
the new patch comes out always and that's annoying, right,
And like all of those issues just inherently wouldn't be
a problem if it was a automatic wizard thing.

Speaker 3 (01:18:20):
I see it as people don't like it that the
game has gone to this point. That's probably what very
complaining about the most. I guess, yeah, because like they
just don't like that you require all of these I
mean not require it's like a bit of a strong word,
but you know the fact that the game has gone
to this point is probably what's very mad about.

Speaker 2 (01:18:41):
Well, they dislike that there is a UI that isn't
the default UI as it's been since two thousand and
three with your buttons the bottom.

Speaker 3 (01:18:49):
Well, like you know, like that you you need all
this stuff to like play the game, so you need
to be like tracking all of these different cool downs
and PROCs, which I mean, I think there is some
oh I say, fair criticism them too bad because you
remember how there was that whole discussion when when was
this It was when uh, I think it was a
Thune that made that video where like when you show
the tool tip of one of your healing abilities, there's

(01:19:12):
just like fifty thousand different products whatever. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Speaker 1 (01:19:15):
Mystery for Healing is another good example of this, right
where it's like an individual misriver heel is for like
ten k and then they have six different massive multipliers
on it that they need to have going to actually
have a heel.

Speaker 2 (01:19:25):
I mean, when we looked at the representation of reht
Paladins and BM hunters earlier, doesn't this also like kind
of it's the exact same argument, Like there's just a
lotah like you just want your bunds to do what
we do.

Speaker 1 (01:19:35):
And in particular, if you were somebody who doesn't who
you want to play the game without thinking about that,
it becoming more like require like it more easy to
do more more of an option is something you wouldn't like, right,
Like you you would be annoyed about a way to
play the game that you didn't want to do, becoming

(01:19:56):
more the default even though it's not a default, like
is still opt in just the fact that more people
will be doing it and there'll be more expectation for
everybody to be having a good you.

Speaker 3 (01:20:04):
Know, particularly true with Rogues. People have been complaining about
how Rogue has been designed since the beginning of Dragonfly
or sometime around there, where it's like, you know a
lot of people probably want to play Rogue, but they
don't like how Rogue plays right now. It's just like
it's too much and it's kind of crazy about Rogue
is the least played class right now, or one of

(01:20:24):
the blue least play classes.

Speaker 1 (01:20:25):
It used to be popular.

Speaker 2 (01:20:28):
It's a pretty popular class archetype like assassination usually meets
people where with like a reasonable spec but like both
sub and it's cool down management and then outlaw and
it's I think it's just its speed.

Speaker 1 (01:20:38):
APM is crazy without LAE right now. Yeah, And it's
not just like APM in terms of inputs. It's like
the amount of times that you have point five seconds
to think about the next button and there's variables. Yeah,
it's it's huge. It's like there's there's a player in
my guild who is quite good and plays a lot
of different specs and that was too much for him,
and like that that was great.

Speaker 3 (01:20:57):
It also doesn't help that we're in an aging player base.
In fact, that's sure for you guys. What is the
average age of a wild player nowadays?

Speaker 2 (01:21:05):
Which which category of wild player? Like the mythic just
the man in general? So hard because I think there's
there's like people in their forties and fifties who don't
rate and just collection and will for the rest of
their life. Yeah, I mean's average for sure? Yeah, yeah,
I mean the average wild player, it's gotta be forty

(01:21:27):
maybe forty holy.

Speaker 1 (01:21:28):
Yeah, Okay, the average person of an active Wow sub.

Speaker 2 (01:21:32):
Thirty thirty five.

Speaker 1 (01:21:36):
God, I think I'd still take the under on thirty five.

Speaker 2 (01:21:38):
But I mean high level, high level Wow, It's way
lower thirty two.

Speaker 1 (01:21:43):
I like thirty two, like people who.

Speaker 2 (01:21:45):
Play in our guilds, people who do like really high
level mythic plus absolutely trends lower. Yeah, it makes sense
than the average, But yeah, I would say around there.
I don't know. I think we're maybe underrating the amount
of people that were like young adults when this game
came out and are now approaching fifty that still play

(01:22:08):
Wow all the time.

Speaker 3 (01:22:10):
Yeah, let me ask chat.

Speaker 2 (01:22:12):
But I also think a large percentage of that player
base are also the like this game was way better
when I was younger, and I fucking hate it right now.
Like I doubt there's a lot of thirty year olds
ripping that shit.

Speaker 1 (01:22:24):
What about Classic versus retail? Like, how much older do
you think the average Classic player is than retail? Or younger?

Speaker 2 (01:22:30):
If you I don't mean maybe a hot take because
you'd think it's a lot older. Yeah, but like I
actually don't know because the few times I've run into
people irl, either playing hockey or just meeting people that
recognize Team Liquid or me and I and I and
I asked them like what they do, it's almost always Classic,
and they're not old. They're like they're like, yeah, like

(01:22:51):
I'm basically was just basically in the video game community
in twenty nineteen and then Classic came out and it
was my first introduction to WOW. And I think, so
that's why I think Classic would be lower than you think.
But I think certainly older than retail, but not as
old as you think.

Speaker 1 (01:23:05):
Yeah, I mean, the fact that it's the game that
has the big views on Twitch more often than retail
definitely would ski the age younger.

Speaker 2 (01:23:12):
A lot of young asthmen gold fans, yeah.

Speaker 1 (01:23:15):
Or even like you know, soda and stuff when they
play a lot of books.

Speaker 2 (01:23:20):
Oh absolutely, yeah, Like, like the viewership for Only Fangs
I think is much younger than you'd expect.

Speaker 3 (01:23:27):
Yeah, I would definitely consider classic more mainstream than retail,
so I can definitely see attracting a lot more younger players.

Speaker 2 (01:23:36):
Yeah, but it's the baseline. It was made popular by
old people, so it's it's it's it's like it's one
where the outliers are probably huge. I mean there's a
lot of young and a lot of old, and I
don't know about the amount of people in between. Wait,
how do where's this chat GPT?

Speaker 1 (01:23:50):
It's in the the wrong channel, but the channel channel
titled very private, don't talk about on stream. We are
going to talk about it.

Speaker 2 (01:23:59):
Yeah, do you know what, I've never put in a
single prompt on purpose into AI, Like obviously, like when
you google stuff at AI stuff for you every time,
but like, I've never I've never done that. Man, I
don't fuck with robots, not one. But I don't even
send my guy.

Speaker 3 (01:24:14):
Amen.

Speaker 1 (01:24:16):
Yeah, fair enough. I don't use it currently either, but
it does seem like every time I see every few months,
it's like increasingly so much better to the point where
it's like, oh, ai, I don't know, it's certainly useful
now and it would be super useful, and like it's
hard to imagine that it's not going to be super useful,

(01:24:37):
and like.

Speaker 2 (01:24:38):
I can your two years o, I can even tell you.
I can even tell you that from just Google alone,
Like just googling shit. The AI summary like a year
ago was so ass and now it's kind of what
I'm looking for every time because I don't want to
click through three or four different things to get a
good article. I want a quick answer and something to
summarize it. And turns out that's fucking exactly what it does.

Speaker 1 (01:24:56):
So it's just it got a lot better at being quick, faster,
and it got better at being right. And so a
lot of people, a lot of smart people, initially were like, Okay,
this is stupid. It. You know, when I google something
there is now at the top link is just the
wrong thing, right, Like this is dumb, Why would I
ever use this? But that see, people treat that like

(01:25:18):
it's not a solvable problem that is actively being solved
every day, and like, clearly it is.

Speaker 2 (01:25:23):
Dude, you know what they need to fix. Man, Whenever
you're playing a new video game and you're just trying
to look up some semblance of information on the Internet
and you just get like the ten Ai generated slop
articles like game Rant and like all the ones that
even kind of look like that, just absolutely terrible websites,
and you have to type Reddit after your inquiry to
get like an answer from a real human that isn't horrible.

(01:25:47):
I wonder if AI can never figure that out.

Speaker 1 (01:25:49):
I imagine, I imagine it. I don't think it currently
is there, but I doubt it's far off like being
able to parse that inform, because like right now, you
could ask it to to answer various questions about games,
but it won't actually get niche ones I don't believe. Again,
I don't actually use it. I haven't checked recently or anything,
but my money would be on that's a capability that

(01:26:11):
it'll have soon.

Speaker 2 (01:26:12):
Oh yeah.

Speaker 3 (01:26:12):
The problem is those gaming article shits have always been around,
at least from like as far as as far back
as I can remember, Like I remember anytime I would
google anything up or some game relationship, it would almost
always have the top results be some random game article
talking about like oh best Weapons of elden Ring or
like you know.

Speaker 2 (01:26:32):
Yeah, that's not the AI I'm talking about. That's that's
like AI. I'm talking like the Google AI learning to
ignore the slop AI, right. I was just saying, like
game articles in general, it was before.

Speaker 1 (01:26:42):
Before AI, the experience was still similar, and before it
was on Google it was the like you know those
those game guides you'd see at game stop that like
those also were often dude, are there the value copy?

Speaker 2 (01:26:56):
Did YouTube kill the like old?

Speaker 1 (01:26:59):
So?

Speaker 2 (01:26:59):
I remember the first time I played through ockeratum time
as a kid. I did it natty, and then I
played through it again and my friend had like the
little I think you can like buy a full on.
I don't know if it was produced by Nintendo or
like a third party company, but it was like the
most elaborate, eloquent, correct, like crazy, easy to follow guide
of all time. And I'm like, I wonder if they
even make those for games anymore. Maybe I'm just not

(01:27:20):
in the market of trying to find them anymore, but
I wonder if YouTube just killed that. Like basically, YouTube
guides are just so much better that you don't worry
about it. Do you guys know what I'm talking about?
Do you guys ever have one.

Speaker 1 (01:27:30):
Yes, I know I used to. I would get game
guides when I was a kid, and like not to
like cheat copies. It's just like I liked games, and
I liked reading about them and stuff and you know,
things like that. So the quality varied wildly from game
to game, is what I remember. Like, there were some
games where it was clear that they were you know,

(01:27:51):
the guide was like just full of like copy pasted
spreadsheets or whatever and not, and then there were some
where it was like, okay, this is like.

Speaker 2 (01:28:00):
Yeah, but if you're a game you feel less likely
to actually spend part of your budget on creating that
thing because you know that the people who early review
your content, their entire livelihood is depending on people clicking
on that shit, and they're probably going to do it better.
You know.

Speaker 1 (01:28:13):
I suspect that you're right, but I don't know for sure.
I haven't, you know, been to a physical game store
in a long time.

Speaker 3 (01:28:19):
Dude, physical copies are fucking awesome. Yeah, I missed that shit.
You're all right, you're talking. You're muted. Int as fuck.

Speaker 2 (01:28:31):
I'm muted. That's fucking insane. I love being muted. Okay,
So have you guys seen the new game prices like
the switch to oh yeah, it's like it's like eighty dollars,
but specifically the physical copy is I think more expensive,
which I guess technically makes sense even though it feels
like shit, because like they're literally producing like a thing

(01:28:53):
they're basically giving you a little cartridge to take home
that just lets you download the game, like they're basically
there just as a like a you know, but I
just I just think the whole physical thing going away
is interesting and Nintendo charging that much is kind of
fascinating because I remember hearing a like a YouTube basically
if you guys ever watched I love these videos. They're

(01:29:14):
usually by Wired or some other people, and it's like
something support and it's like if you want to learn
about like random Greek mythology, like the smartest person ever
on that will just answer a bunch of questions from
Twitter and answer shit. There was one by a video
game guy. It was really fascinating because I don't know,
I play a lot of video games, but I don't
know a lot about video game publishing. And one of
the questions was like, when is the cost per game
going to like go up or go down or whatever?

(01:29:36):
I'm mad, well, welcome games are still like sixties. Like, Well,
the thing is is that games have been sixty dollars
for like twenty years, and the cost to make a
game that can be sold has gone up exponentially, and
we don't want to pass that cost on to the consumers.
But we don't really know what we're supposed to do
with that because it's just a real thing, right, And
then you bump up the cost eighty dollars and everyone

(01:29:58):
hates it obviously because you know, that's just it's been
sixty forever. But I was wondering if it's a matter
of time before that happens. And then also if you
fast forward ten years, how much does a video game cost?

Speaker 3 (01:30:08):
Well, is it not micro transactions?

Speaker 2 (01:30:10):
That That's how a lot of people are getting around it.
That's why micro transactions exist. Basically, that's their way of
not passing costs onto the consumers. They allow certain people
to pay for specific things so other people can either
play it for free or for a reduced cost.

Speaker 3 (01:30:22):
And also, there are just way more gamers nowadays than
ever before, Like I'm sure I would. I actually be
curious what the numbers are, like how many players play
the game. How many players are gaming nowadays compared to
twenty years ago.

Speaker 2 (01:30:35):
Post COVID, even I think was a massive jump.

Speaker 1 (01:30:39):
Yeah, yeah, yeah, I mean it's interesting because Okay, so
this lines up with another area that I find really interesting,
which is like price discrimination in general. So you're talking
about something be more expensive for physical copy and people
not liking that. But consider a flip side. Imagine a
world where fifteen years ago Steam comes out and they say, Okay,

(01:31:00):
because we are doing a digital copy of the game
that doesn't need a CD printed or anything like that,
we can offer you a discount if you buy it digitally.

Speaker 2 (01:31:08):
Yeah.

Speaker 1 (01:31:08):
Would people like that? Probably? Yes? Right, even absolutely? That
makes it makes perfect sense, right, Like the you know,
there's more cost involved in making a physical copy that
should cost more, But if you frame it as a
or if it comes out as a price increase for
the physical copy instead of a price decrease for the
digital copy, then I think you go from like eighty
twenty liking it to eighty twenty disliking it, which is, uh,

(01:31:29):
this is really interesting.

Speaker 2 (01:31:30):
Yeah, there's been a bunch. It's like kind of the
concept of nerving versus buffing in a Wow. Yeah, in
a way. It's the you're accomplishing the same thing that
people are mad and want and happy in the other.

Speaker 1 (01:31:38):
Yeah, super cool you w I think Frank had some
great topics that we will steal for future weeks because
they're evergreen.

Speaker 2 (01:31:51):
We could do those.

Speaker 1 (01:31:52):
Yeah, there's some good ones. Good work, Fronk. Thanks for
writing all those topics. Sorry we didn't use all of them.

Speaker 2 (01:31:56):
Thanks Dustin for the Patreon That was actually a really
good Patreon question. I think that like that. That is
a very interesting topic. I think about that constantly.

Speaker 1 (01:32:05):
Yeah, and thanks all of you for listening or watching,
and thanks in advance for subscribing to our patreon. Those
of you who haven't that now

Speaker 2 (01:32:15):
And subscribe, toscribe YouTube subscribe all right later, m

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Ep. 67 - Outrageous things are happening...

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.css-14f5ked{margin:0;word-break:break-word;display:-webkit-box;-webkit-box-orient:vertical;box-orient:vertical;-webkit-line-clamp:2;overflow:hidden;}Ep. 67 - Outrageous things are happening...