Ep. 68 - The Most Dramatic Patch Ever? - The PoddyC

Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:00):
Hey, welcome to episode sixty eight of The Potty c
This week, dinars have been announced and there has been
much discourse on the internet about them, so we will continue.
We will add to that discourse with our episode.

Speaker 2 (00:17):
I actually I haven't even heard your rolls takes on it.
I've been pretty like, I was pretty busy last week,
so I like missed the initial drop and I also
miss I normally give it like a drat Nose video
a listen. I would normally give like a Dorky stream
a listen, but I haven't been able to do all
of that, So I'm I have my thoughts about it,
but I'm really interested to hear how you guys think.

(00:37):
Especially I think like Dorky and drat Nose will probably
have varying, like different opinions because of your like focus
in the game. What do you guys think.

Speaker 3 (00:45):
Yeah, I've been busy, so I haven't given my takes
on again. But I am extremely dobby, So we'll sort
off of that. Like I have almost nothing positive to say,
I'm just gonna like say it straight up. It's gonna
be like, straight up, yeah, I have been radicalized by

(01:05):
this change.

Speaker 2 (01:07):
Wow, that's not the right I feel like all Mythic
for the people I think of all of the factions
of players in this game, the Mythic Plus, not the
Mythic Plus only player even, but like the Mythic Plus,
Like if I could spend all my time in one way,
and wow, it would be doing Mythic Plus. Those players,
regardless of whether they rate or not, those are by
far the most upset and the most vocal, like this

(01:30):
is not what we wanted kind of thing.

Speaker 1 (01:33):
Yeah. So, and Dorty, you're you know, cutting as Rader, right,
like you have you will have access to Yeah, yeah, yeah,
so these items yourself.

Speaker 3 (01:43):
Yeah, don't get me wrong, like this will massively benefit me,
by the way, Like I'm not the one affected by this,
but I do feel very strongly against this. I feel
like it really hurts the game, and it really hurts
the players that I like largely play with. And I
guess kind of you to be sort of yeah, I
guess I've always been reading.

Speaker 1 (02:03):
But ye, you still like when you look in the mirror,
you still see an M plus or right, like you're not. Yes,
that is the main thing that you are in the
same right. Yeah, I'm also pretty negative about this, like
I would say I'm not full on Dobby, but I'm
pretty pretty sad about how Dinars have worked out because

(02:27):
I was such a huge fan. So Dinars in the
seasons they were in did so many cool things, and
this current version that Blizzard's putting out does like half
of the four cool things that it did, and yeah
in those faded seasons. And it's the point where it's like, man,
I kind of I would be happier if there was

(02:48):
just if it just never was announced, And I think
they would probably be happy if it was never announced either,
because it's like so nerved. The only thing that it's
nice for is like it's the main function that is
preserved with this implementation is bad luck protection, right, Like, yeah,
if you kill Galliwick's ten weeks in a row and
you don't have a Jasher Diamond and you don't have
an Eye of Kazan, like cool, congratulations now you have them.

Speaker 2 (03:11):
But okay, but I mean if you're gonna make the
bad luck protection argument, which like, okay, that's a service
that is good in this game. Are there people who
killed Silken Court ten times and didn't have a spy
Master's right, Like, for sure there is a need for
something like this, not to say it couldn't be better,
but like, if you're gonna make the bad luck protection argument,
how on earth do you not include mythic plus mythic

(03:32):
track pieces, Because like, that's the thing you actually cannot
obtain in this game unless you are extremely lucky over
the course of a season if something is like this.
So that's where it loses me on the bad luck protection,
Like how could you include one and adot the other?

Speaker 3 (03:46):
So not only that I wouldn't even consider is truly
a bad luck protection because realistically a lot of Gills
are just going to kill these bosses once and we're
just gonna acquire a loot right after by just purchasing it, right,
So where really is a bad luck protection when you
just killing back and you just give a loot, right,
It's more of the terministic loot than it is bad
luck protection. But I mean, there's bad It's not bad

(04:07):
that that exists.

Speaker 2 (04:08):
Yeah, And I had some people mentioned to me like, Okay,
shadow Lands season four, dinar's give you the normal item
and you had to kill mythic bosses to get the
mythic upgrade token to make it mythic and I think
in a mirror self, there was no restriction like that.
You just got the loot now, I think, and Blizzard
just said this a few times interviews. I do not
expect the entire community to like listen to interviews and

(04:29):
like be fucking tapped into that, like maybe you know,
it's kind of our job to do that. But like
they have said, like, we're gonna roll this out really conservatively,
not only in the length but in what we're giving you,
and they kind of keep saying because we can't roll
it back. Like an example of this is like the Catalyst, right,
you remember the cat Eight week into the patch Catalyst,
Everyone's like, holy shit, this is too late, And now
the Catalyst is actually pretty nice. I think the way

(04:50):
the cattlest works in the game is really good. So
before saying anything else, I think whatever dinars exist in
a regular season, which do have to be different, I
think than faded seasons, it's going to be bet are
a year and a half from now than it is
right now. Probably as far as their actual implementation of it, though,
So I was starting to think, like, Okay, there's some
use for this. It's not surprising they did this. They've

(05:11):
been kind of saying they're gonna do something like this,
but I still think so what they're afraid to do
is just like give you a piece of loot that
you haven't earned yet. And I think I think I
kind of agree with them at the beginning of a season,
just not two or three months in. I just feel like, like,
what are you afraid of? Like, just giving basically anyone
a free mythic rde drinket or item two or three

(05:34):
months in doesn't mean people don't rate anymore. I don't think.
Maybe that's their fear, but I just feel like it's
totally fair too, even if people do just want the
free loot. And for a lot of people, I think
the people who are the most mad, not all, but
the most mad I think are the people who are,
like I don't really like rating. I don't want to
have to get twenty people together. If like rating was

(05:54):
ten man, i'd be there, but like twenty man is
a huge barrier. The schedule mythic plus is like anti schedule, right,
you can kind of just log on and do whatever
for most people, and I just I have an aversion
to all of that and to those people, you know,
they just don't really want to do raid and they
see raid trinkets, especially in this patch. I wonder how
relevant it is in this patch that the raid trinkets
are all fucking crazy good, you know, and the raid

(06:16):
items like that has not been true in most seasons,
like one or two of your best trinkets are dungeon,
which again there still needs to be a way to
acquire that, by the way, but this patch, specifically the
raid lute is super fucking op and if they want
to lead you in that direction, it's okay. But you
have to understand that people who like basically love this
game as a Pyramid plus player are going to absolutely
hate that, and I think they have made their their

(06:37):
feelings very, very heard.

Speaker 3 (06:39):
So there's a couple of things to unpack. First is
when we were talking about the interviews, initially, Blizzard did
say it was going to be similar to Dragon Flight
season four Booleons and Shadow in season four Dinars and
be in ten for them to have their own upgrade track,
which is supposed to scale to a maximum rank of
fourteen given enough crest and valor.

Speaker 2 (06:59):
Stone like La Far all the way to the end
of Miss Drag. Yeah.

Speaker 3 (07:03):
Yeah, So, like you were basically given that item and
you were supposed to just like upgrade it all the way.
So that was of expectation, and like it was a
huge part of this patch, right, It was what a
lot of players were fully expecting to come in the
point five patch. We had a great season so far,
it's been super fun. And plus the raid is great,
vibes are great, class balances is like an all time high.

(07:26):
And for them to just like suddenly rip this after
people were fully expecting to get some type of dinar
system just feels extremely bad. And the second thing too,
is they did mentioned here why exactly they're they're afraid
to just hand it out? I guess link they did it. Yeah,

(07:46):
this blue post in the most recent one, so basically
what happened here.

Speaker 1 (07:51):
Frog will put it in post. He loves it and
that kind of thing.

Speaker 2 (07:52):
Loves it, Yeah, he loves it.

Speaker 3 (07:55):
They buffed how many dinars you get, right, so we
went from tow dinars to you acquire one right away
on May thirteenth. Yeah, and they said specifically how they
didn't want to go back on the whole you need
to kill mythic to acquire mythic items, and they said
something about what does it say here without undermining the

(08:15):
core motivation for of a challenge and coordination required in
mythic rate progression. So it seems like they are exactly
going for bat like where they want you to enter
raid and they want you and that gear is supposed
to be the cored motivation for completing the raid.

Speaker 1 (08:33):
Yeah, it's just I mean, it does feel like this
is one of those things where you read a blue
post and you just feel like, well, that's not true.
That's not true. That's not true. Like you look at
this blue post and they say they have this thing
about like they don't want to give people gear that's
going to be that they will never upgrade past next season,
which is like the worry if you give people mythic

(08:54):
like myth track I have Becazana or whatever house of cards,
you know they're going to keep it for all all
of ten point eleven point two. But like that's not
true unless that person is literally only an LFR raider,
and even then they probably would. Yeah, right, like you're
replacing your replace myth track with betteran track of the

(09:14):
next season. It's it goes to a higher track, right,
goes to a higher eye level I guess I'll be
the same with this, the extra bump, the myth track
is going to the season. But like you, I mean,
we're talking about play a player who doesn't then ever
get access to Champion track gear, which you can get
from like medium tier delves. They're no, that's the person
that like we've got to we've got to nerve the

(09:34):
system to make sure that they those players aren't they
they're not carrying over an item from the previous pack.
What about Sercy circlet?

Speaker 2 (09:41):
What not?

Speaker 1 (09:41):
The Sercy circlet that were those players are all still
wearing right now?

Speaker 3 (09:44):
You're still wear Yeah, I'm still I'm.

Speaker 1 (09:46):
Wearing Servasy circlet on twelve of my thirteen characters and they're.

Speaker 3 (09:49):
All people in tournament realm are still wearing.

Speaker 1 (09:52):
Yes, that Like okay, all right, we're so we're we're
okay making people go do a stupid island thing content,
but we're not okay with with giving it for these dinars,
for people like actually doing you know, the main content
of the game, right, like rating and on the lower difficulties, right,
Like that's the thing is I think you could change
the word mythic to heroic and this would be so

(10:13):
much better if you made it so like, Okay, if
you kill Galliwicks on Heroic, you can buy galli Wicks
items from dinars, Like that would be so much better
than making it mythic requirements. Yeah, or even if you
you could do the thing that shadow Land season four
did right, like people were talking about, well, in Shadowland
season four you needed to do mythic, Yeah, but you
didn't need to do all the bosses on Mythic this season.

(10:36):
The only good items from the raid come from the
hard bosses at the end of the raid. It's not
like Aaronau had good loot, and you know Primal countsil
had good loot. Vecci and Cauldorn and Carners, those guys
have no good items. So dinars feel so bad to
get if you're somebody who's not killing one arm bandit
plus because all of the good items come from one
arm bandit plus right, And if they made it like
Shadowan season four, at least they can make it so

(10:57):
it's like, Okay, you have to get a certain number
of kills it's fast, or if you're full clearing the raid,
but like as long as if you can clear, if
you can do some two out of eight runs, you
can get this in five weeks or whatever. I mean,
that would still probably be too many, but at least
you'd be like getting something if you could, if you
could do those first few bosses on Mythic, but this
time around, if you're not, if you're not in a
situation where you have to be super coordinated, even way

(11:18):
after all these nerves, killing one arm banded on Mythic
is not something a lot of people are gonna be
able to do. And that's like the only place that
dinars have good rewards, and even worse if you're progging,
Like if you are progging those later bosses and now
you're like, okay, well I've got to use my dinar
to buy Hero track items so I can kill the boss,
and now I so now I can't use it to
buy the myth track items. Like I don't know, man,

(11:39):
I feel like there should just be a rule at
Blizzard that's like, hey, if we're gonna make a system
and everybody's gonna go a yuck at it instead of
like we should just try and make systems, and.

Speaker 2 (11:49):
Right, who isn't saying yuck to this?

Speaker 1 (11:52):
Well, there's one set of people, and that's Raiders. Who
enjoy M plus or suffering, and that is a large
part of my personality. But even that part of my
personality is not enough to make me enjoy the system.

Speaker 2 (12:02):
Dude.

Speaker 3 (12:02):
Yeah, I mean it has become a largely M plus
versus rader thing.

Speaker 2 (12:06):
Yeah, you've seen raiders be like, I have to fucking
spam mythic plus and I hate it at the beginning
of every passion in my gear and near mythic plusers
just want fucking free raid shit, goddamn it.

Speaker 1 (12:15):
Yeah.

Speaker 3 (12:16):
Yeah, which is actually a problem in itself too that
I want to talk about later. But uh, for this specifically,
it's like you were saying, uh, jinals, it's kind of
weird how you don't get it from doing heroic So
if you want to get a heroic piece, you can
do l FR. You can do LFR, and you can
kill an al far boss. If you kill l FR
when on a bandit, you can buy a heroic house

(12:39):
of cards. So doesn't that like kind of undermine heroic raid?

Speaker 2 (12:44):
And then uh so I thought about that too. I
had a lot of chatters be like, you know, I
just don't understand the mythic thing because they did l
FAR through Heroic and one thing, and then the Mythic
was separate. And to me at least that as long
as they're going to do this, I'm not saying they
should do this. That makes sense because basically Hero track
at this point is like fucking whatever, So it basically
includes everything in Hero Track and below, and Mythic Track

(13:05):
is clearly the thing that is different that is sought after.
So seeing those things grouped together, I think is like
kind of doesn't matter.

Speaker 3 (13:11):
But it's not necessarily about the track. It's about the
items that come from it, right, because like myth track
items are kind of whatever. I mean, it's still a
pretty big deal, but it's whatever because it's more about
getting the House of Cards itself, right, I think, like,
I mean, go ahead, I was gonna move on.

Speaker 2 (13:25):
Oh okay, Well, I I want to say about the
difficulty thing like, oh, it doesn't matter because like Mythic track,
thing isn't what, it isn't always good, Like the early
bosses are bad. There there's a line of thinking that
says that that's correct, Like having the best trinkets and
the best things come off the hardest bosses near the
end of the raid is is a like loot philosophy
that totally makes sense, rather than the opposite of that,

(13:45):
where all the loot off that let's just say polar opposite,
the loot off the last bosses sucks and the lut
off the easy boss is good. Obviously for someone who
never wants to enter raid, you're like, fuck yeah. But
for like game design, that's that's stinky, right, stinky, stinky
bad bad. So that's where I find this interesting, is
is the issue in this raid is they kind of
did how loot should work. If you're just looking at

(14:08):
rad they did it right, if you're following that line
of thinking. But it's also where it's caused the biggest
grievance because they're so powerful and mythic, plus trinkets are
in this patch maybe uniquely this patch. I know it's
been true, and a few others are like way far behind,
and I've wondered if, like, maybe a way they can
alleviate this. By the way, they could totally just change

(14:29):
the RS and just give you free piece of lou
You should reward people if people are still playing your
game all the time at the point one patch, just
fucking give them a free trinket. Man, You know it's
really not that deep, but let's say they do they
do want to continue doing something like this, they should
always make sure in every season that a Mythic Plus
trinket is like really competitive and like really close and

(14:51):
the actual like delta between the best Mythic Plus trinket
and the best like very rare raid thing. And then
that kind of gets into the whole conversation of like
why does very rare exist if those items are not
fucking sick? Because the rare has to make sense for
the power and that's a whole other thing. But like
or even just like a non Mythic Plus drinking like
every patch, just make sure by like week three or four,
if you really wanted it, you could get a you

(15:11):
could get a uh there's like a little vendor and
I don't know what it costs, but you can just
buy a mythic track trinket of any stat It's just
a static secondary and static mainstat on one.

Speaker 1 (15:22):
Trink I'd be for so many people.

Speaker 2 (15:24):
Yeah, and og statstick just straight up and and then
and then the alternative of that, where it is like
you know, just like a little babby two minute on
use or something, and that just exists. Every patch you
know that exists. It doesn't need you can be more
creative with the trinkets because at least those as a
baseline exist. And I think that alone, because like, would
people in mythic plus be fucking losing their minds if
you know whatever, what's the the house of cards? If

(15:47):
like House of Cards? If there was like something like
House of Cards super generic even a statstick like a
lot of those sim really good. They do good over
the entire dungeon. Like if those existed, there wouldn't be
this need of feeling like I have to raid.

Speaker 1 (16:00):
So there are I mean, there are some good on
plus drinkers the season, right, there's the wax, there's the signet,
there's the pacemaker.

Speaker 3 (16:06):
Like, I mean, they're all good, but they're just not well.

Speaker 1 (16:10):
It depends on the stack you're playing, right, Like like Moonken, right,
Moon can are using wax signet right usually so it's
like two hours.

Speaker 3 (16:16):
No, it's nowhere near as good as moxies.

Speaker 1 (16:19):
What do you people are using it because they don't
have the modo.

Speaker 2 (16:21):
What do you think about this theory? Is it like
the bys theory where like basically, okay, let's say you
have two trinkets. It's a really the second best trinket,
I guess, and for the sake of argument, you should
say the third. The third best trinket is pretty easily
obtainable for mythic plus and it is one percent behind
the top two, which are both rade trinkets, or five
percent behind. Is the Do you feel the same about

(16:43):
those two things, because even though the difference is greater
or smaller, it's just not biss. Like how much does
something being bis matter versus how biss it is?

Speaker 1 (16:54):
I think it definitely matters how bis it is.

Speaker 3 (16:56):
Yeah, if it's like five percent, that is egregious.

Speaker 2 (16:59):
That is bad.

Speaker 1 (17:00):
A lot of people defending the dinars make the argument
that it is like like a mythic jasterer versus a
hero jaster is a one percent difference or something like that.

Speaker 3 (17:08):
Dude, ah man, there's okay, So there's a lot to cover.
But so I want to say my biggest gripe with
this whole system. Like at first, I was like, oh,
you know, like it sucks in all Bay. At least
it's like it's still nice to have, right, Like it's
still nice. Bad people can get raider gear. But then
the more I thought about it, and the more I
talked with other people about this, the biggest problem I

(17:29):
have with this, by far is rich get richer. Right now,
there's already a pretty massive discrepancy between mythic raiders and
M plusers. Like if you look at the radar, I
was looking at this literally just the other day, I
was looking. I was comparing two Boomkins, two top Boomkins,
and the top ten one of them is a mythic
rader and one of them isn't. And let's not even
get started with the Chinese players, by the way, but

(17:50):
Chinese players, those motherfuckers are out here buying gear from Raid,
getting like literally ten item levels on everyone else. You're
like astral gapping any other region in M plus and
it's not even close because of just how insanely geared
they are. So like, those guys are gonna get even
insanely richer. But uh, right now, like there's like a

(18:11):
four to five percent gap between the Boomkin that's mythic
rating and the other top Boomkin that's not the y
at all.

Speaker 2 (18:19):
Yeah.

Speaker 3 (18:19):
Yeah, Like I assim their characters and I was like
comparing my character to with like Goops by the way
I rated, I killed more raid bosses, been fucking goob,
and somehow this motherfucker has more gear than me. And
it's just like so if we if we add on
this the NAR system on top of whatever exists right now,
like that that mythic grader is straight up just gonna
be smurfing the hell out of the M plus boomkin

(18:43):
and like like, again, this doesn't affect me because I
can just purchase this shit and it doesn't matter. But
for my fellow M plus players out here, especially a
lot of the people who he like used to raid,
so like you know, like Evade, Greg, et cetera, like
all these people haven't don't really raid anymore. They just
feel like they're getting out skilled so hard and it's
just such a problem that that's my biggest complaints abouts

(19:05):
of this whole system. Yeah, now would just not exist
at all.

Speaker 1 (19:10):
In another way, the rich got richer is, oh, if
you are selling mythic galliwicks.

Speaker 3 (19:13):
Congratulations getting rich.

Speaker 1 (19:15):
The demand for that has gone through the absolute ceiling
with the.

Speaker 2 (19:20):
I thought that would be true, and it might be
true for some guilds. But if you were already selling
as much as you can, which I think right now,
most people that are killing with the Galewicks at the
most could sell two spots at a time, so you're
eighteen manning learning the three heel is like something that
probably isn't worth your time, so like it's it's too many,
and because it drops three mounts, the person who's buying

(19:40):
mythic Galliwicks, you're not gonna be able to pay. Most
people aren' gonna be able to pay to like get
one of those runs because you're competing with someone who's
buying the mount, which is tens of millions more than
just the kill, so like and because you can't carry
three or four, four would be all three mounts are there,
and then you're selling the fourth spot to someone who
just wants the loot unlocked for the dinars. I don't
think that market really exists unless people were struggling to

(20:03):
find sales anyway, and now instead of they were unable
to find a I don't even know how much it is,
like a twenty five million mount buyer, so now they're
just selling like five million just regular kills you don't
get the mount. And maybe those exist. I just think
early in the season until it gets nerve more we
get more powerful, it's gonna be really hard for anyone
to actually even find these carries.

Speaker 1 (20:24):
Yeah, I think the I think that it more means
like in two months time, Gallywicks might have been a
four million to buy a run thing, and now it's
going to be like a fifteen million or something in
two months time much higher.

Speaker 2 (20:37):
Demand'll be higher for that, but it is going to
be more do but still that entire demand falls below
because every guild would still prefer a mount buyer because
it's always going you way more so, like well, the
run out of mount buyers and it's like it's like
one of the coolest mounts fucking ever to right, I
don't think it's easy.

Speaker 1 (20:53):
It's the easiest end boss to Sellson's you know, Ragnaros
or something, right like.

Speaker 2 (20:58):
Oyah, I out even once they nerve this boss that
like every guild is going to be able to find
like three mount buyers every week for every run they're doing.
You know, like that's not so like you will find
a way to like fit in these people.

Speaker 3 (21:11):
What usually happens Villa is like you'll have buyers for
Bandit itself, and then you'll have buyers for a muggsy
and then then you'll.

Speaker 2 (21:18):
Have very sure, very true.

Speaker 3 (21:21):
Yeah, yeah, I mean you just gonna have a lot more.

Speaker 2 (21:23):
Have you guys seen like already dratnos. Have you guys
sold to people who want the dinar thing, because we haven't, well.

Speaker 1 (21:28):
We've we've only been doing like eight out of eight
sales anyway, so uh we I guess those people, those
people have gotten a better They've gotten more bang for
their buck than they thought when they were first buying it.

Speaker 2 (21:39):
Yeah. I think we kill Galiwick's like three or four
times a week right now, and I to my knowledge,
we have not received any inqurease or anything that isn't
a mount buyer, and I don't know when that's gonna stop.
But also like, yeah, we're we're gonna get more sales
on other people, right so maybe it's a yeah.

Speaker 1 (21:55):
Yeah, I mean we we've been pretty consistently getting We're
only selling one buyer per for one gallon Wicks currently,
although that's going to go up I think next week
or the week after. But I still I can empathize
with the people who don't myth the grade because I
have a bunch of rat alts. Like this season, I
was so excited to play Mage in Keys because I

(22:16):
was like, oh man, this season, I know I'm going
to be able to get the good trinkets on this
character and like have if I if I get my
vaults every week for the first few months of the season,
I'm going to have like full myth gear and good
trinkets and I'm not gonna have to wear these stupid
Delve trinkets. And my guy's gonna be like I'm gonna
have a byss mage for because I played it and

(22:37):
I'm still playing two months into the patch, and like
that was a really exciting thought. The desire to log
onto that character after this announcement has dropped precipitously for me.

Speaker 3 (22:48):
Such a sad the fact that it's not account wide because.

Speaker 1 (22:53):
Which actually done for sure, But yeah, I'm assuming that
I character.

Speaker 3 (22:58):
That Gallon, so I should yeah, like I should at
least be able to get it on my alts. But
the fact that like I can't even get on my
alts is complete trash.

Speaker 1 (23:07):
Yeah, we don't know for sure on that one. It
it reads to me like a character specific thing. The
fact that it's a quest to get the dinars as well,
instead of being associated with the Raid renown which is
account wide, which is another weird thing. This was originally
on the Raid renowned track, and now it's going to
be this quest system, which means like if you miss
a week, there's no bad luck protection or no catch

(23:27):
up mechanic, right, Like it's and you have to do
it on all your characters instead of just once for
your whole account.

Speaker 2 (23:32):
It just seems like it's underdeveloped. Like that sounds like
something that any time something that has happened, it has
been fixed within a few weeks. Yeah, which does beg
the question of like, why isn't it already like that?

Speaker 1 (23:41):
You know? Yeah, well, I mean they had it. They
had it right on PTR bass Like the version of
this that they had on PTR was was going to
make this patch not only have the best point zero
of a season, right, but also have a really good
point five and point seven. And now it's like, man,
it's so it's so sad. It's like such a own goal.

Speaker 2 (24:03):
Yeah.

Speaker 3 (24:03):
So there's been a lot of Raider claims that we
need to address here. Okay, I've been reading some absolute
rage bait, like I swear to guys, So this entire
discourse has just been like basically M plus versus raiders.

Speaker 2 (24:16):
Right.

Speaker 3 (24:16):
Yeah, So one of the claims is, oh, well, I
mean just raid right, Like, why can't you guys just
mythic rate, Like, well, first of all, I'm sure there
are a lot of M plus players or just like
players in general that would love to myfic rate. In fact,
I would say heroic players in particular, if there are
probably a lot of heroic raiders that would love to
heroic grade, except that it fucking requires twenty players and
it requires a scheduled time to like, you know, get

(24:40):
these twenty players together, and the vision visions like so
many accessibility issues to myfic rating that it's not necessarily
about if mythic rating sucks or not.

Speaker 2 (24:52):
Yeah, you just like the amount of players needed more
than the content itself.

Speaker 3 (24:57):
Yeah, well, I mean, like it would be fine if
the amount of players required was still high, but it
just wasn't as big of a problem. That's hard getting
to give it. Yeah, I mean, whether it's as hard
or whether it's like because of the lockout. The lockout
in particular is a major problem. Lockout, Like if you
could just like kind of just show up whenever, right,
if you can just like show up and be like
all right, like we can get we can get Timmy

(25:20):
in for this raid and then like if if you
can't play, then we can get someone else. And that
would have been a problem except you can't really do
that for MIFIC rating, So like that's like the first problem.
The second claim is when raiders say you don't need
the gear, Like I hear her so much like oh,
you don't need a gear, you're just doing twelves blah
blah blah blah.

Speaker 2 (25:37):
Yeah, well, shut the hell up.

Speaker 3 (25:39):
You don't need gear ever fucking liquid cleared, but rate
at six sixty three, why do these guys need gear?
Like who the hell needs gear? Like, it's not about
needing gear, Like I just feel like people just don't
get it.

Speaker 2 (25:48):
Well, even if you were to make the argument like oh,
you don't absolutely need the but you're not. You don't
need that gear to time that thirteen bro, like that
whole argument, it still feels good to have the best gear.
Like it's something that like if you look at classic,
like why it was classic popular, specifically with rating. I
would actually talk to my own raiders and did this
and it's like, hey man, it's like super chill to

(26:08):
do the content to get the best gear in the game,
and for some people that's either what they want or
they really appreciate that they don't want to be going
super hard all the time. Now I understand why retail
is different, but the whole, the whole, you don't need
to even say like, oh, you don't need the best gear,
well what if I want it?

Speaker 1 (26:24):
Yeah, Like that's my mage, right Like, my mage is
never going to do any content where it realistically matters
that I have a myth track versus hero track House
of Cards, right, Like that is going to be completely
irrelevant except for the fact that it's like that is
the fun part of the game is gearing, Like Blizzard
has successfully made gearing and making your characters items better
a fun thing to do. And so if you design

(26:46):
a system that then you know, dangles it in front
of people's faces and then yanks it away, like that's
going to feel really bad.

Speaker 3 (26:52):
Man, that's a good way of putting it. And then
I've also people say like, oh, it's only a one
percent gain, except you know, like we already talked about this,
like shit up, we have characters that are like five
percent to like upwards of ten percent stronger.

Speaker 1 (27:05):
Yeah, which it's again a specific item, the fact that
you only get the originally it was going to be two,
but even with three, Like you want to purchase Jasher
Diamond Jet pilots go pack, two trinkets and a weapon, right,
Like that's five things that you want and you can
only get, uh, you all get three of them, right,
So like if you have to use any of those
on purchasing a hero track version of the item, like

(27:27):
that feels really bad.

Speaker 2 (27:28):
All right.

Speaker 1 (27:29):
The CLOACU is fucking overrated, right yeah, Like I mean
the cloak is the Cloak is definitely the one of
those that you don't.

Speaker 2 (27:33):
Rest rest maybe has good stats for a lot of people,
but like bro that that clocus so whatever, yeah yeahah.

Speaker 3 (27:40):
And I mean I would say gear is usually a
bigger problem in M Plus than it is in Raid
because like, your value as a player is heavily determined
by a couple of things. It's determined by your io
first and foremost, it's determined by the class you play,
and then I would say it's your gear, right Like
all that stuff is heavily factored in, and that's one
I M plusers care so much about gear because like

(28:02):
when you're a raider, it's it's kind of whatever, right,
Like you're already married to your guild, and your guild
will probably just like has you in Like it doesn't
matter how dogs share your gear is as long as
like they like you as a player or as your class,
whatever it may be. And whereas like if you're doing
M plus, your gear is literally your identity. It's like

(28:23):
it determines if you can invite to groups, or it
determines how much value you are to the group.

Speaker 1 (28:30):
Also, like the survivability end of it, right Like often
you're you know, we're talking, we're talking about like oh
it's one percent more damage or whatever. But like on
the margins, a little bit more stamina is a huge
deal as well, for for high keys, right like even
though it's less a one shoddy season before, which is great,
it's still really nice.

Speaker 2 (28:46):
Stamina And max HP is the most slandered and misunderstood
stat in this entire game. It's so fucking good.

Speaker 1 (28:51):
Yeah that is true.

Speaker 3 (28:53):
Yeah, so like the whole, the whole, like, oh, you
don't need gear, like well back fision fish don't get it, man.

Speaker 1 (29:00):
Yeah then like yeah, you don't don't need it.

Speaker 2 (29:02):
I don't think anyone thinks they're making good faith arguments though. Yeah,
but this is all basically an extension of like, stop
fucking complaining. So they're just like coming up with anything
to dunk you and there none of them are like
great takes. They just want you to suffer, right, which
you know, again, I respect it.

Speaker 1 (29:16):
I I respect the.

Speaker 2 (29:17):
That's a large part of your personality, you understand.

Speaker 1 (29:20):
Yep, that's uh joke.

Speaker 2 (29:22):
Okay.

Speaker 3 (29:22):
So the last one that's really annoying is when they
say harder content should give more gear. That is a
rage bait for sure.

Speaker 2 (29:30):
Like, bro, I.

Speaker 3 (29:30):
Don't want to hear about harder content needing need to
give better gear. I mean, if that's the case, then
I think high keys should also give gear, and I
think getting gladiators should also give Yeah.

Speaker 2 (29:39):
I think there's something I remember why, Like why does
a fifteen or sixteen or seventeen once a week or
a month or something not give you a mythic track
thing from that item from that dungeon the first time
you do it each week?

Speaker 3 (29:52):
Yeah, we also need to bring back TVP gear. I
remember when all the fucking rating majors were complaining about
having a PvP for badgers. Yet we'll get in the
re Let me just see how much you'll This is the.

Speaker 2 (30:03):
Same thing the other way though, now you're just like,
I just want to fucking spikes bad takes from Yeah,
that's that.

Speaker 1 (30:13):
Yeah, Like that's I think.

Speaker 2 (30:16):
Here here's the issue with the argument about like the
hardest content should give the best loot, because I think
most people in a vacuum would agree with that in
like any game, by the way, like that just makes sense. However,
in Wow, in PV specifically remove PvP entirely. Uh just
in general, by the way, just fuck BBB. But the
uh uh, like in Raid Raid, in the first two

(30:37):
weeks of a patch, doing the mythic end boss and
the entire mythic raid is inarguably the hardest thing you
can do in the game, and at that point it
does give you the best loot. The problem is, mythic
plus is difficulty kind of stays the same because you're
able to do like whatever the highest key is available
for your gear, and your gear continues to go up
right for a high key player, so like your difficulty
increases and like stays like kind of and rating difficulty

(31:01):
literally goes down you cannot argue it, like the raids
are a certain way, they get nerved, and even if
they didn't get nerved, you get more powerful. So the
bosses just objectively become easier to where if you're a
raider specifically saying like this is the hardest content, that
becomes less and less true like every day or I
guess every joke. So now it's like, at a certain
point in the patch, you could be doing a Mythic
plus dungeon and it is absolutely whatever key level you're

(31:23):
doing is absolutely harder. It requires more from you than
getting cutting Edge than killing the last boss on Mythic.
Yet it doesn't award better loot, So like the difficulty
shifts depending on when you're doing the content.

Speaker 3 (31:35):
Yeah, the way I see it is Drogo's guild gets
cutting Edge every tier halfway in, And if those motherfuckers
are getting myth Track loot and there are guilds bet
are worse than them, then I think they should just
fucking hand that shout for free.

Speaker 1 (31:48):
Are there guilds that are worse than them? That has
that been scientific?

Speaker 3 (31:51):
I mean, you know, according to like guild Rakis and stuff. Yeah, Okay,
that's just how easy rating gets that's towards them. Yeah,
but the real challenge is PvP. So you know, we
got to bring back PvP giving the best give.

Speaker 1 (32:02):
Yeah, bring back shadow in season one where we all
had to get twenty four hundred for our two thirty
three weapons.

Speaker 2 (32:07):
I just found that so funny on the Ven Rookie episode, which,
by the way, Ven Rookie total my goat. Uh he
was great on that episode. But I when all pvpers
say their favorite time to PvP was the beginning of
shadow Lands, I just find that so funny because it's like,
of course it is, because you were just fucking slaughtering
pvars and it's like the it's like.

Speaker 1 (32:24):
People who don't want skill based matchmaking and there and
there are first person shooters right where it's like, yeah,
I would love to just beat up on people who
aren't good at this game.

Speaker 2 (32:33):
For doing RBS with the boys and winning is a
top tier experience and if you're losing at all, it
sucks that that's the that's the truth.

Speaker 1 (32:42):
Yeah.

Speaker 3 (32:42):
But also, I mean so I also do agree that
M plus looted is too powerful in the beginning. I
feel like gearing just needs to change. I heard Tedle's
talking about this, like some idiot Boomkin from some other
podcasts just talk about how like gearing is like really
powerful beginning of the season in mplus, but it tapers

(33:02):
off really hard and raid is like the opposite, And
I do feel like that is an issue too. I
do feel like Vinny to somehow make it so mplus
isn't infinitely farmable, because I mean every season has boiled
down to that. It doesn't matter what player, what type
of player you are. You could be an mplus or
you could be a raider, you could just be like
someone who plays a game. The beginning of the season
is literally just spamming M plus, right, It's like trying

(33:23):
to get as much of your hero tracklute as possible.
And I feel like that shouldn't be the case. I
don't am I crazy.

Speaker 1 (33:31):
I feel like the gearing system is like it's pretty good.
Literally all they need to do is make the dinars
good and then the gearing system is great. In my opinion, Like.

Speaker 2 (33:39):
I don't even understand how how you could like the
way like Mythic Plus being what it is at the
beginning of the season is kind of the way that
Mythic plus looting makes sense, so like trying to imagine
something different than that is a complete You could argue, like, hey,
they should completely overhaul this and make it better. I
just don't even know if that's likely.

Speaker 3 (33:55):
But what about delves, Like delves are kind of like
that where you can't infinitely farm it. Well, you can't
infinitely farm before like what Champion track or something, But
if you want to get like hero track, then it's
you have one Hero track.

Speaker 2 (34:05):
I can already I'm just gonna make up a complaint here,
like you get one Hero track piece per week or
five or something, and it just takes It's you remember
how people were like farming hase mastery rings and shit
and just being unable to find great rings and mythic plus.
Now imagine you just couldn't even deterministically do that after
a certain amount of like you just don't ever get
like like you're a month and a half into the season,
and well, the five hero track things I eluded, weren't

(34:26):
this really hard to obtain thing? I guess you could
make the argument that they would just make each specific
piece easier to obtain so you don't have to do
Mythic plus. If you want to. Like, basically, if you
want to target farm five Mythic Plus pieces, those are
the things you can get this week, and you don't
have to farm it. We'll just give it to you.
It just sounds so different.

Speaker 1 (34:42):
Yeah, I don't know, Like I feel like the new patch,
the start of a patch is fun. Getting up a
bunch of guys in M plus is fun. I'm somebody
who raids and does M plus, but like even the
people who don't do MP plus outside of the first
few weeks of the season and my gold, I think
enjoy the first few weeks of the season.

Speaker 2 (35:00):
Other way.

Speaker 3 (35:00):
I hear so many raiders complain about how like, oh,
it's so dog shit when you have to infinitely.

Speaker 2 (35:04):
Yeah, I don't know how many of those are like
the majority. I think there's just a certain amount of
raiders and Mythic plusers which you would probably admit to,
that are like anytime something's happening with the other person,
they're just like fuck you, yeah, and like they're just
like slinging shit. Basically they're at the zoo and and
I feel like there's a lot of people at the
zoo this week, Like basically the most Dobby Raiders were

(35:25):
just taking their chance to take a shot at Mythic Plus. Yeah,
because like they like. But I don't think the majority
of Raiders at all like heavily dislike doing Mythic Plus
beginning of the season because it's just fun to like
play the game.

Speaker 1 (35:38):
Yeah. I think also, like you said, Max, like putting
good items from the last few bosses in the raid.
I think it like makes a lot of sense when
you look at it, right, Like that that fixes a
lot of problems with how Gears worked in the past, right,
Like the good trinkets from the last bosses, the good
weapons are from the last bosses. Like that makes a
ton of sense game design wise. I just think it's
the implementing the dinars this way turns that from a

(36:01):
positive to a negative. And that's another like downside of
doing it that way. But I think it's so much
better than like in a vacuum. I think that's that's
a really good way to make the loot work.

Speaker 2 (36:11):
Yeah. I just feel like, uh, they'll, okay, you could.
You could run that a bunch of times over and
over again, and I still feel like the Mythic Pluster,
I just think Mythic Plusters have become playing this game
so differently, right, like they let's just say, you're saying, like, oh,
just find time to rate. I think there's a lot

(36:32):
of Mythic plusers and I heard this when I was
streaming earlier this week that just literally do not have time.
They're unable, literally unable to commit to a schedule. Rating
for them is literally an impossibility. As far as well,
it's not.

Speaker 3 (36:44):
Just m plusterers too, it's also heroic creators.

Speaker 2 (36:46):
Yeah, yeah, whatever, Yeah, same thing. So like people who
aren't able to commit to Mythic, which is content that
requires twenty people to get online and also have a
set schedule, there are people who can't play this game
on a set schedule that fucking love wow. And the
way that they can play the game is doing a
TC rating which you can pug or it is doing
the thing plus whenever they have a spare second to
play World Warcraft. And I think anyone of those people's opinions,

(37:07):
which I think is probably the majority of the people
who are mad about this, I think are totally valid,
right because like just knowing that you can play World
of Warcraft and you basically never have access to the
best ute that it can offer because of those things
just does feel like shit, right, Yeah?

Speaker 3 (37:24):
Heard, yeah, because I mean it's not like, you know,
it's not like these people can't clear mythic like I
was saying earlier, like they probably could if they were given.
Some people can, and that's yeah sure, I mean like yeah,
I mean, like you know, some players are just like
straight up not good enough, and then that's fair, right,
But for.

Speaker 1 (37:39):
Other people who can, if they had the schedule, yeah, yeah,
you could at least get cutting edge, right.

Speaker 3 (37:44):
The people that feel negatively about this is like you know,
like I I, I just can't give this gear because
of my circumstances. And it's not because like I can't
do it. It's just because like I straight up don't
have the time or I don't want to allocate these
specific parts of the nights just to do this content.
And it like that's the only way of acquiring if

(38:06):
the gear. That feels really bad?

Speaker 1 (38:09):
Yeah, I mean I think if you know, it's like
a huge dub for wow that there are people who
exist and don't raid and play the game as much
as high as zen plusterers do, and like it would
suck to basically tell them, like no, actually, this game
isn't for you because you can't raid like that. That's
how the game used to be, right, like you know,

(38:30):
fifteen years ago or whatever. It's like, yeah, you're you're
playing the game as much. You've got to find a
solid rating team because that's like the only way to
get good items and stuff, and that, you know, going
back to that I think would be worse. Like, I
think it's good that we have these n plusters in
the game and that that should be a supported way
to play the game, and implementing the in on ours
this way feels like that. It feels like making those

(38:53):
people second class citizens, which I think is like numerically,
those people should probably be first class citizens of this Yeah,
but how many more of them?

Speaker 2 (39:01):
Especially ifaying the game. If you're those people and you're
still playing the game at eleven point one, right, just
give them a fucking mythic drinkt man? Uh the uh
look into your crystal balls for a second if you
guys have them. And does Blizzard in two weeks walk
this back or is this a hard commit for the
rest of this season, because like the way I'm looking
at it is okay, the feedback overwhelming the negative I have.

(39:23):
I literally do not think I have seen someone have
a positive take on this. Is this something they walk back,
cause like I feel like they knew going into this
based on what they said already was like they wanted
to do it a different way, and then they intentionally
didn't do it, which makes me feel like they feel
pretty strongly about it working this way and not another way.
That makes me feel like they won't walk it back.
But recently when Mythic Plusters had a lot of complaints,

(39:45):
they did like both before this expansion when they were like, hey,
we're not changing Mythic Plus and then people were like
what the fuck? And then they did, right, They made
a bunch of changes. Then going into this season, people
were like too many Tankbusters. Shit's way too hard. They
made it way easier. People really like Mythic Plus the season, right,
so they've listened to it. The US just complaints recently,
do they listen to this and do they change it
or do they iterate on it next season? They doubled down,

(40:05):
which makes me doubted because like, if it wasn't for
a Vat's second post, I would have been like, oh,
you know, like as long as we complain loud enough
and surely they'll fix it. So hopefully you guys are
out there complaining. I swear to God, we got to complain,
so fuck it hard. I am so radicalized I am.
This is feeling like fucking American politics. It's like straight
up the m plusers versus the Raiders.

Speaker 3 (40:26):
But that's crazy.

Speaker 2 (40:28):
Yeah, I don't think it's that deep. I really think
it's just like the bottom smallest percent of each one
just constantly slinging shit at each other. But they're just
very loud.

Speaker 3 (40:36):
Okay, Well, as long as you're a complainer, make sure
you guys complain.

Speaker 1 (40:39):
Yeah, yeah, I will say, I'm I'm. I don't know why,
because like there has been a lot of them responding
to feedback in a good way in the past, like
since nine point one point five. I would say the
trend has been something like this would get better, but
something about it. I'm getting the vibes of the three

(41:00):
nine point one point five Catalyst blue posts mindset from Blizzard.
Like from the way these blue posts are written, it
seems like they made this decision knowing that they had
the other option, and they're like locked in, like they've
thought it through and they're they've decided this is what
they're gonna do, and us complaining is going to be

(41:22):
They probably already expected us to complain about these things,
and so I hope I'm wrong, but I get the
feeling I'm feeling more pessimistic about this than I have
been about like any of the other stuff that I've
hoped and many of which have gotten changed in the
past four years.

Speaker 2 (41:41):
Yeah, I feel like the reason why they won't is
I imagine I could hear right now, I could close my
eyes and hear a game developer saying something like, we're
really really afraid to do the most powerful thing, which
is give you the best gear in the game for
free at any point during a regular season like that.
That is the singular thing, And they probably make a convincing,
compelling argument that I don't understand as to why, like

(42:03):
the player's psychology and why they play the game and
stuff like that, there's probably a reason they're afraid of it.
I just this just feels like the catalyst to me,
like they're gonna release it like this and then everyone's
gonna hate it, and then they're gonna walk it back,
walk it back, walk it back, until they eventually give
it to you. Speaking of that walking it back, what
do you think is the version of this if you
were to like create the version of Dinars, when do
you get it in a season? And what does it

(42:24):
give you? Being fair? Like not just like okay, it's
pretty easy to be like I wish, I wish they
gave us sixteen dinars on day one and we got
every single piece of biss. Obviously that's too extreme, right, Like,
what's the level that you think makes sense? If you
were to guess?

Speaker 1 (42:38):
I think this timing is good, except I think that
either require like total a small number of total mythic
boss kills to upgrade things to mythic, or require the
heroic like I think this. I actually think the timing
that this comes out is about right. We're talking it's
gonna be like Renown eleven or something on the renowned
track is going to be the week. Not for me

(42:59):
because I already number down twenty, but for people that
didn't exploit their renown up to renound twenty eight.

Speaker 2 (43:03):
Dorky, do you agree with that? Do you agree about
the timing?

Speaker 3 (43:06):
I mean for me, it's not about the timing. For me,
I just feel like if you play the game enough,
you should be able to acquire these items. But that's
how I see it. I'm more of along with a
line of like Legion kind of thinking, where it's like,
all right, you know, you put in enough time and effort,
you should be able to acquire stuff eventually. But the
current problem, which is what like really frustrates a lot

(43:28):
of people and players, is you just straight up can
acquire these like you straight up just cannot get mythic
House of Cards. There is no other possibility of getting
this item aside from killing myfic one arm banded and
in order to overcome one arnbanded. Like we've already talked
about it, there are just so many logistical issues. So
as long as they do something that allows players to

(43:51):
work towards it, I don't care. Like if it's all right,
so maybe you have to go do keys, and then
after that you have to like do certain delves and
you have to do certain world content whatever, just like
fucking just give players an option.

Speaker 1 (44:04):
Yeah, yeah, I would actually be fine as well with like, okay,
imagine you get the Dinars. The Dinars just buy you
normal gear and then say you can upgrade it to
hero track with stuff that drops from the raid on
any difficulty and from tier eight plus delves and from
like five or higher keys, right, something like that, and
then you can make your thing go to hero track

(44:24):
from Champion, and then if you do like twelve or
higher keys or mythic bosses of any kind or last
too heroic, you get credit towards upgrading them to myth
track like that. That to me, I think would be
a fair way to make it as well, because I
agree like it shouldn't be like free Loot Pinata explosion,
although I think that airing on the side of free

(44:45):
Loot Pinada midway through a season is much better than
the being on the other side of it. Right, Like
we're talking about it's it's gonna be may the patch
came out in what February or March. There's not content
on the horizon for a while.

Speaker 3 (45:00):
Right, Like people are don't with this game by now,
like just right.

Speaker 1 (45:02):
Like there were a lot of people who were excited
about not being done this patch because of Dinars, and
like that's a really good thing and they should take
the w on that and have the system provide that longevity. Yeah,
And that's.

Speaker 2 (45:17):
That's like that that makes me think of Plunderstorm, where,
like you know, Plunderstorm was this like little pirate flag
on the roadmap and people maybe took off work or
were otherwise just really excited to log in and do
whatever they expect to be normal wow content, and then
it was just something totally not for them. And in
this case, they basically told you what Dinnars are going
to be. So you're I'm gonna still play this season

(45:37):
because I want to experience this time where we get
these things and I want to get these pieces of
gear that maybe I never get and then have your
expectations completely subverted and you get something completely different totally
at all tracks with you being really fucking mad. You know,
it makes sense.

Speaker 1 (45:50):
Which the comments I made a YouTube video about this
like when it came out, and I'm sure these comments
were somewhat hyperbolic, but they were. They were like overwhelmingly
negative about this. But a lot of the quitting this patch,
a lot of it was basically yeah, like okay, I'm
done until either eleven point two or in a lot
of cases midnight, or in some cases people are like
I'm I'm out of here, right, But obviously I think

(46:12):
I think if you're out of here, like entirely over this.
I think that's probably it's probably more likely that those
are just hyperbolic comments. But I don't know, I mean,
maybe that you've los some people forever on it. I
think in a lot more cases people are just gonna
be done for the patch, when otherwise they'd be still
playing the patch, and like that's a really exciting Any
system that would have people still playing right now is

(46:32):
a great idea.

Speaker 2 (46:32):
Yeah, if you're blizzarded, how important is protecting the sanctity
of loot and how loot works in your game versus
making people like actually log off, you.

Speaker 1 (46:39):
Know, And we already have like we're giving people corruptions
this patch, and then those are going away at the
start of the next season, right like, I don't know,
we're already kind of doing the Hey, yeah, you're gonna
be strong this season. Then it's it's but then it's
going away, right Like, we're already gonna incur some of
that for these kind of corruptions that don't actually feel
like old coruptions anyways, and don't have a lot of
the old things that we're associated with old corruptions, Like

(47:00):
I don't know, it feels like a much better place
to spend that kind of danger budget would be Dinars.

Speaker 3 (47:07):
It's just crazy, like this is what people have been
looking forward for the entire patch. It's like, all right,
you know, we've had fun playing the first half of
the patch, and then like, oh is gonna come and
we're gonna get our Dinars finally yah, and then well,
just kidding, you can't even buy anything with these than ours,
So it just feels really bad.

Speaker 2 (47:25):
Did we do like fifty entire minutes? I'm just in ours?

Speaker 1 (47:28):
Yeah, dude, we are.

Speaker 3 (47:29):
This is a great Yeah. Yeah. What do you guys
think about the turbo boost?

Speaker 2 (47:38):
I thought that why not?

Speaker 1 (47:39):
Why yeah? Loop going up? So okay, I don't like that.
I'm gonna have to recraft all of my stupid crafted
pieces with the new reagent. That's cringe. But I do
like the hero Myth track going up too extra steps
midway through the patch. That actually that sounds great.

Speaker 2 (47:53):
To It gives you more loot progression. I guess, like
one maybe negative thing is like I guess it's like
the carrot on the stick and like this. I like,
for example, I know there are people that maybe they're
very not highly represented in numbers. But like JB, for example,
would like a mythic plus season to start. You have
tournament realm and biss and you're able to just like
do all the highest content and there's no gear progression

(48:13):
and you just do that, right, So, like, if you're JB,
this is the opposite of what you want. They're extending
that point to when you could theoretically be at that
level to where you're basically still just farming. Like two
extra myth on every pieces is like extending multiple weeks
for you to be like fully maxed out. But I
know some people really like that, you know, Like I
know there are people who who once once they're like

(48:34):
unable to spend gilded crests, their time in which they
are going to stop playing the season is rapidly approaching, right,
And if it means you're still playing, whether it's Carrot
on the stick or not, it's a good thing for
some people, right, Like it's some people love playing the game.
A lot of other people love playing the game when
you're also pushing up multiple bars at the same time,
because that's like kind of what an MMO is all about.

Speaker 3 (48:57):
Yeah, I like this because I've been preaching for more
prolonged grind throughout the patch, because I mean the patches
have kind of we've kind of like lost the back
grind for a while now. So it's kind of nice
to have this, And I think it'll be interesting to
see how it ends up playing, because it does kind
of trivialize some content. Right we are gaining what a

(49:18):
nine levels, I don't even know how much it is.

Speaker 1 (49:20):
Well, I mean we're still gaining outibles every week right now.

Speaker 3 (49:23):
Right so no, but like when the Turbo Bus comes out,
it's like straight up uncapped and you can just like
grind all the way to maxim level.

Speaker 1 (49:29):
Yeah, but the Crest cap is going to be pretty
close to irrelevant by that point anyways, right, Like the
cap itself on Crest is already it's in a lot
of cases in two weeks time, people, you're going to
be gated by how many myth pieces you have, much
more so than by how many crests you have, unless
you've like crafted weird or for multiple spacks that kind

(49:52):
of stuff.

Speaker 3 (49:53):
Yeah, dude, being being gated by myth track items sucks bad,
especially for.

Speaker 1 (49:56):
All Yeah, and that's that's still going to be the case.
But like the creft capping the crests at this point
in the season is it's it's nice, but it only
really matters because they're increasing the myth track. Otherwise, I
don't think it would actually change really much of anything.
But yeah, I think it's a cool idea. I don't know,
this one of the things where I'm like, oh, this
seems interesting. This is like a worthy experiment to do

(50:19):
if it has some weird unforeseen downside, like I think,
I do think the recrafting everything is kind of annoying.
I'm yeah, I wish they kind of just the high
level of the craft and stuff by six across the board.

Speaker 2 (50:30):
I have a hidden thought like what if I mean,
if you're a JB right and you find the time
in which, like, you're not this in the season. It
maybe JBS like too extreme off an example, but you're
someone that's just like, dude, I want to be able
to do the highest keys they're available this season. Pushing
that farther back makes people not want to like seriously
play and push and till that point, I don't know
how many people those how many of those people there are,

(50:52):
you know.

Speaker 1 (50:52):
So that is a good point, right, Like that it's
sort of been a phenomenon since Dragonflight, where I mean
even before then. Obviously, like most world first keys are
or most of the best keys of a season are
done at the end of the season rather than the start.
But it's become increasingly true that, like we are getting
an injection of power in the point five and the
point seven patches, and so it kind of feels like

(51:14):
it's not worth pushing keys in the point zero patches,
especially when they shake up shape up a meta as well. Right,
Like oug literally got introduced in a point five patch,
But a lot of times there are seasons where it's like, Okay,
these specks got buffed in the point five patch, and
so like all the best keys of the season are
done with them. I do think it's a little bit
of a shame, yeah, but it sort of feels like
pushing keys early in the season is diminished in value.

Speaker 3 (51:38):
I've heard that a lot.

Speaker 2 (51:38):
Actually, okay, isn't isn't this kind of in a macro
sense what we've been asking for though, Like we've had
this conversation multiple times on the podcast where we were like,
hey man, an entire expansion doesn't need to be defined
by borrow power, but if you could just cook halfway
through these seasons, I think that'd be pretty fun. Isn't
that like exactly what they're doing. Yeah, But the consequence

(51:59):
to you.

Speaker 1 (52:00):
I think I think the one thing that would be
really cool is if they had like a like a
mid season checkpoint, like imagine before if before they drop
the point five patch they handed out another round of
M plus titles or something, right, and then it's like, oh,
the people who pushed early get a cool thing.

Speaker 2 (52:16):
We've been asking that for a while. That's because there
are simply multiple points of a season that are relevant,
and it all being at the end doesn't really make sense.

Speaker 1 (52:25):
Yeah, I mean there's still people who push earlier in
the season because just they're they're the people who have
fun pushing keys and M plus, which is a condition
that I won't I won't go into in the in
greater length now, but you.

Speaker 3 (52:36):
Know, players just like to play for fun, Like it's
not right. Yeah, imagine like if they just hop on
and just like grind some score for fun. But also
for a lot of people who plug, if they need
to stay on top of the treadmill, they can't just
fall behind, Like they can't just not push and then
like later in the season expect to be to uh yeah,
like plus nineteen keys or whatever.

Speaker 1 (52:55):
Yeah, you need you need to keep the iyoh.

Speaker 3 (52:58):
Yeah, we also need be on keep keeping on top
of the meta strategies, keeping on top of lake rounds
and all that.

Speaker 1 (53:05):
Yeah. I think though, I think like a mid a
mid season checkpoint would go a long way towards making
this not a downside for people that do want to
push early in the season.

Speaker 3 (53:14):
Yeah, it's just one thing that's been sucking really recently
at least, Like this is a very specific to high
end keys. It's not like as relevant for lower keys,
but for people who are trying to compete for ranks
have a higher keys. It just feels kind of pointless
because a lot of the Chinese teams are just significantly ahead,
Like these guys are straight up.

Speaker 1 (53:33):
And if it wasn't the Chinese teams, right, it's like
the mythic Raiders, right for the person in a World
one hundred guild versus in a World one thousand guild
that has you know, the galleywicks and the House of
Cards items, Now, what.

Speaker 2 (53:43):
About the what about the first Like what about right
when the race World First ends? And all these like
like twenty splits, gigajuiced full mythic gear, like world first
raiders show up into keys, right, that would be if
there was like a competition early, that would be soud fucked.

Speaker 3 (53:57):
That was such a real phenomenon back in BFA. I
don't remember what's here it was. I remember, uh, you
guys came out of Race the World first, and then
it was like there was like a group that formed up.
It was like evade fired up. I think it was
maybe Healing and Atlas Tanking or something like that. It

(54:20):
was like some just like a random assorbment of people.
Not even these guys were so fucking geared. They were
just like astro dunking on every single top key. It
was like, all right, you know, like everyone's been pushing
these twenty four is that they've been like getting like
all these world first keys done, and then these guys
just come in and they just get like all the
world first keys and they're just like hard slamming all
the keys and then they went that that was a
real phenomenon, yeah, Quid, Yeah, So.

Speaker 1 (54:41):
That would maybe be a downside of rewarding things too
early in the season, But I feel like the you
know five does come out pretty early, Like the Hall
of Fame is not even closed when the point five
comes out, I think existed.

Speaker 2 (54:53):
That gap that has existed post Trace World first is
certainly less than it used to be, but it's still
a few eye levels for sure.

Speaker 3 (54:59):
Well, now, just a Chinese gift.

Speaker 2 (55:01):
And the best trinkets and stuff you have all the
like bare minimum going into the raid on the very
first before you go in to Mythic. Ever, every single
one of these people has a hero track of whatever
trinket they want, right, that's just so different experience than
everyone else in the game, did.

Speaker 1 (55:13):
You guys see, by the way, speaking of Hall of Fame,
Blizzard changed Hall of Fame so that you need to
kill Bandit, Muggsy and Gallywicks to get Hall of Fame
now so that the people buying the Gallywicks lockouts.

Speaker 2 (55:28):
Than eighty million gold for no reason. Yeah, that's so crazy.

Speaker 1 (55:31):
The greatest heist of the century was whatever guild sold
them that lockout. Oh my god, yeah, eighty two million golds.
I wish it was absolutely not the yeah genius part
of the deal.

Speaker 2 (55:40):
I mean, it's also just like like a loophole that
you're this is it would have taken something like this
for them to fix it in the first place, because
like in every raid before this, you would have progressed
through every boss to get to the last boss, because
that's just what made sense. This is like a very
unique situation, and yeah, them doing that isn't surprising.

Speaker 1 (55:57):
But apparently it did, like screw a bunch of guilds
kilds that like killed Galliwick's and had killed Bandit or
Muggsy before this change, and like what it wasn't tracking that,
so they had to go back and kill those bosses again.
It's like once Blizzard changed this, you now have to
kill all three after the change, if you haven't already
got Hall of Fame, which, yeah, that that seems to

(56:20):
me like a case of Okay, this was probably not
worth doing until we could make it not work that
way or until next season because like griefing those guilds
in this in this way that happened to Kalamazi, liquid Caster,
a friend of the friend of the show, hater of
the bench beautiful. Well, it ended up having to do
those rekills, so that that's tough. But I said, that's

(56:42):
like a bug thing or.

Speaker 2 (56:43):
On rekilling just a that is one of the worst
rekill bosses of all time. I don't know if you
guys have delved too far into that, but that's.

Speaker 3 (56:52):
Been the hardest boss of Reclue.

Speaker 1 (56:53):
Dude, I think we're like fifty poles into reprog with
our all run on bandit now. It's it's been tough.

Speaker 2 (57:01):
It's so sneaky hard.

Speaker 1 (57:03):
Yeah, we next week. We got it though, a little
nine percent buffs on the way or to trivialize that
for us, but then that's that's not a fun boster
wipe to infarm and that is a very easy boster
wipe to in farm. Okay, what other stuff do we have?

Speaker 3 (57:23):
What about Mob Classic? Are you guys interested in that
at all?

Speaker 1 (57:27):
What about Mob Classic? We also we could talk more
about Plunderstorm.

Speaker 2 (57:30):
And md I yeah, that would be great.

Speaker 1 (57:33):
Those are some topics. Are our listeners love? No, Okay,
make make the case for b Classic good.

Speaker 3 (57:39):
I'm just curious if you guys are interested in Mob
Classic at all.

Speaker 2 (57:42):
I'm not, personally, dude, I'm surprised I'm not, and I
think it's just because I just don't play a ton
of games right now, Like I'm just just at the
point where you know gaming there's just the struggle between
your hobby becoming your job and everything about that. But
like MOP, for me, like I play the game before MOB,
but MOP was when I was like became an absolute

(58:03):
degenerate in this game, and every bit of nostalgia that
people have for Classic and TBC, I have that for MOP.
I have frequently made the assertion that like class design
and MOP was the best that ever was, even though
I'm almost positive that is rose tinted glasses, and once
that comes out that would be proven to definitely not
be true. But I just fucking loved it. All of
that being said, I just can't find myself playing Classic.

(58:26):
I tried in Kata when the game definitely got a
bit more modern, and it's just every time it's the
same feeling every time I play Classic, where I'm just like,
all the changes they made from this expansion to the
new game all makes sense and the game is currently
better than that if you if you just game gives

(58:47):
become purely a gameplay only guy and not usually very
motivated by nostalgia. So so I don't see myself playing
it right now, even though I don't know I kind of.
I don't know. Part of me wants to if it's
ever if if Classic expansion is ever gonna get me
it's this one. But I don't even know when it
comes out, so that would probably tell you that I

(59:07):
probably don't care that much.

Speaker 1 (59:09):
We haven't said okay, it should be soonish though, right,
because it's we're in Dragon Soul Farm.

Speaker 3 (59:14):
Right uh yeah, the beta has been given out to Oh.

Speaker 1 (59:19):
Yeah, it's like it's it's in the earliest stages of beta, right.

Speaker 2 (59:22):
Well, maybe they will keep it true to form, like
old Dragon Soul Farm was super long, so maybe they're
going to hit that just like hit the hit the
super long U super Long Farm for that, just to
make it like the old days.

Speaker 1 (59:38):
Yeah.

Speaker 3 (59:39):
Yeah, I'm one of them. I've been. I've been nostalgic
for Legion Classic. I'm just like imagining a world where
Legion Classic exists and whatever retail exists and you can
just hop on Ivory game modes and do emplugs or
if they even have like a Legion MDI holy fuck,
I am in. I am sold.

Speaker 1 (01:00:00):
I would I bet they would Legion comes out.

Speaker 2 (01:00:04):
Yeah, Personally, I would love to see a Mythic plus
tournament of Legion Classic, just to see the skill difference
and how much better people have gotten at Mythic plus
from then until now, because I feel like there will
be multiple key levels higher timed of basically every single
mdikey purely based on player skill increasing and overall dungeon

(01:00:26):
competency being significantly higher. Like the idea of having like
a stop rotation in Legion just just straight up like
an MBI that that wasn't a thing, so like you
were just you. We've just gotten so much more proficient
at doing dungeon content, dude.

Speaker 3 (01:00:40):
It's one of those fantasies too, Like you ever you
ever have those fantasies where you're thinking about like going
back in time into like certain moments and just like
knowing all the things to do or like being really
good at that certain thing. Yeah, That's what I'm talking about. Yeah, Yeah,
that's like basically going to be Legion Classic when you
can relive it in just I think.

Speaker 1 (01:01:01):
There's gonna be the one remix people think is like
soon ish, right.

Speaker 2 (01:01:05):
I think they should do that. I think Legion remix
would be fucking high by the way, I think just
in general, it's been a while since it's happened, but
the whole remix idea fucking owns. I know there was
a lot of technical issues with the last one, but
still if you bring it up. Brought up in twitch
chat the other day about remix and like most people are, like, dude,
that was so fucking sick. I didn't play the mop.
I got to go back and get all this cosmetics.

(01:01:25):
And that's even with it being very flawed, which it
would certainly will you would hope be less flawed the
next time they do it because they learned all those lessons.
I just think that's a slam dunk. And I think,
certainly what will exist at the end of this expansion
because I strongly doubt they're doing faded again. Just seems
like something that they got bad feedback for last time,
so I think they'd probably go harder into remix.

Speaker 1 (01:01:47):
Yeah. Also, there's a there's a raid teleport at the
end of the renowned track, so that that used to
be a faded reward. This time we're getting it in
the past. So oh, that's no faded confirmed, confirmed.

Speaker 3 (01:01:59):
Confirmed leaks. Yeah, that's crystal. That's crazy.

Speaker 2 (01:02:01):
Did do you worry? Dorky though, that like you're like
being able to be transported back in time and you
know all these things, but you can still go do it.
Are are you afraid of it not living up to
that feeling?

Speaker 3 (01:02:13):
Mm?

Speaker 2 (01:02:14):
Because like I basically my take is is there's nothing
that can ever replace like what it's like to play
a great game right when it comes out again, Like
that's just the best time every game of like PUBG
and APEX when they came out, Oh my god, fucking euphoric,
so good. But like nothing could ever be the same
as when everyone's playing a game for the first time again.
It's just so specific. And I wonder if, like, like

(01:02:36):
for me getting my hopes of about that about Legion
would be like I would be let down, you know.

Speaker 3 (01:02:42):
Yeah, I don't know personally because I've never been in
that bolt yet, but people have been through that, and
people have always talked about how great twenty nineteen Classic
was and how it felt almost like vanilla, And same
with people who have been playing uh Oblivion recently. People
have been playing Oblivion remasters even seeing how great it is.
I mean, I've never played an Elder Scruls scheme before,

(01:03:02):
so I don't know what it's like, but yeah, it's
kind of like cool to see people are actually excited
for all these.

Speaker 1 (01:03:08):
Dude, I loved Oblivion. I haven't played the remaster yet,
but I'm thinking because I'm just I am also in
the camp of just like you can't do it again.
It's not the same, but maybe with the Blivia it's
like enough of a remake that maybe it'll be worth
playing again.

Speaker 2 (01:03:27):
Dude, not it's the tangent dust too hard. But gonna
throw a free ad out there real quick. Another game
that just came out is that like Expedition thirty three,
think if you guys play that, that game fucking owns
if you If you are someone who is okay with
turn based combat, which I know like turns a lot
of you guys away. No pun intended that they you

(01:03:49):
you need to play this game, And I would argue
this game is so good and and iterates on turn
based in so many ways that you should even if
you've been like I fucking hate turn based and you've
got some dollars to throw around and are not worried
about risking buying it, or it's on game Pass by
the way, for free if you have that, well, not
free because you pay for game pass, but uh, you should.

Speaker 1 (01:04:09):
You're losing money if you don't play this. Yeah, you
have game.

Speaker 2 (01:04:11):
It's yeah, it is that. It is that good of
a game. I've also, it's the only game in the
last like seven or eight years that I've played where
I am not currently skipping cut scenes like ten hours
into the game. Yeah, crazy that the game fucking owns
so hard.

Speaker 1 (01:04:26):
It's so it's it's so good. I have dorky if
you played any Extibision thirty three.

Speaker 3 (01:04:30):
Ye, I've heard a lot about this. By the way,
this is a great endorsement. You guys are doing amazing.

Speaker 1 (01:04:34):
But yeah, yeah, the game slaps.

Speaker 2 (01:04:37):
If anyone wants to pay for us to advertise your ship,
it will sound just like that too.

Speaker 3 (01:04:41):
Yeah yeah, yeah, we're gonna make it as natural as possible. No,
but like I've actually been looking into a or for
a turn based game, and this actually seems like right
up my alley, like I saw a little bit.

Speaker 1 (01:04:55):
Of it, like stuff right, it's it's literally that, But
there's also like Dark Soul's timing some dodges on attacks,
and then like the.

Speaker 2 (01:05:03):
Dark Souls Campfire like Bonfire System. It's very familiar in
that way.

Speaker 1 (01:05:08):
It's so good and the the only downside is it's
like French. But you know it can't be perfect.

Speaker 3 (01:05:14):
Yeah, but I mean yeah, I mean I've been looking
at it. I've been checking it out. I might try
it out, but I've just been kind of busy with
MDI stuff.

Speaker 1 (01:05:21):
So yeah, should like when you when you have a
free couple of days. I think it's I think it's
the kind of game that is going to one shot you.

Speaker 2 (01:05:30):
Yeah.

Speaker 3 (01:05:30):
I've been playing uh first Berserk because on off time
it's so it's like game where's pretty much Parry that
was like hard and hell, by the ways, I spent
like fifty hours to beat that game.

Speaker 1 (01:05:39):
The one thing about Xtsion thirty three is it definitely
does that Elden Ring bullshit where the boss like starts
finding up but then keep finding up even more. That
keeps finding up even more. Then you dodge that he
taxi when you die.

Speaker 2 (01:05:52):
Yeah, but you know it is what it is. Yeah,
this game I have whenever I travel, I like have
a hard separation between gaming in like real life. It's
why I don't vlog, It's why I don't make content
when I travel. This game made me I like had
a realization. Like yesterday, I'm like, I can't just like
not play this game for two weeks while it's still out,
So I like went out and panic bought like a

(01:06:13):
gaming laptop that I can play on the plane and
at night when I'm bored or whatever, when I'm on vacation,
and that that's that's how good the game is. It's
just Gooded where did this game even come from?

Speaker 1 (01:06:24):
Late?

Speaker 2 (01:06:24):
Was it it?

Speaker 1 (01:06:25):
It's like a small it's the first game from this
French studio.

Speaker 2 (01:06:30):
Made by thirty people by the way, Yeah, crazy, Yeah,
there is.

Speaker 1 (01:06:35):
Their first title or something. It's crazy.

Speaker 2 (01:06:37):
Yeah, it's playing every single game they ever make.

Speaker 1 (01:06:41):
Yeah from soft pass. All right, let's do our Patreon question.
Sure this one comes from you that says, hello, pod crew,
what are your thoughts on classes with similar class design?
I'm used to mating DK and now play reppally, and
this season's REP play style feels almost identical to Frosty
k Breath builds. It's just a mini game keeping your
Divine Hammer up for as long as possible. I'm not

(01:07:02):
sure what it is, but I'm loving Retpaladin's Divine Hammer
gameplay way more than DK breath build are there any
other cases you guys can think of when classes had
designs this similar. Is it good for the game?

Speaker 2 (01:07:13):
Uh So, just in general, I don't think it's bad because, like,
let's just take Surrender of Madness, right, Like, if you
were a sick Shadow Priests player, you absolutely love that
If at some point in the game they add something
like that, that's that has that many stakes or that
much stakes attack attached to it, and the damage that
you're rewarded for the gameplay, only Shadow Priests got to
experience it, so like other classes could experience something like

(01:07:34):
that DK breath. I know a lot of you guys
hear that and you're like, I'm fucking mad. And a
big reason for that is they never did a good
enough job of making sure that Obliterate was like competitive
when Breath was a thing, where like, for example, Momentum
Builds with DH, you could always play the easiest fucking
like perma Ibeam demon Form like super easy version of DH,

(01:07:56):
and it was always either better or very fucking close
to where you didn't feel bad if you didn't play Momentum.
DK horrendously fucked that up. So the thing with rhet
is it they made it like easier to manage. It's
also not as punishing to drop as like Breath was.
Like your entire damage doesn't fall off a cliffs and
it's easier to keep up.

Speaker 3 (01:08:17):
So it's uh, they did, what'd you say to it's
lower cool down too, yeah.

Speaker 2 (01:08:22):
Lower cool down. So it's not like a two minute
like imagine how bad Divine Hammer would feel if it
was easy to drop, much harder to play in you
hard had to tunnel it instead of just playing Reppaldin normally,
and then if you dropped it too, you felt like
shit for a minute and a half, you know what
I mean? Like that that is why Breath sucked. So yeah,
it also Reppaldin. I talked about this recently with someone
I think an achievement in gaming that they made a

(01:08:44):
spect so easy and still so fun to play if
you're good at the game. Those two things are really
really hard to do at the same time.

Speaker 1 (01:08:53):
And yeah, we talked about it last week about how
like at least I made the assertion that you could
like Rep. Paley was pretty easy, and there's definitely more
to it than I memed, But it is definitely true
that like if you screw up rap pally. It doesn't
feel like you're you know, you're you've been banished to
the Shadow Realm for the next minute, right, You're. It's
just like, oh I messed that up a little bit, right,

(01:09:13):
I lost a little bit of damage. But the speck
is still fun to play even if you're not playing
it perfect, which yep, is a huge accomplishment. Yeah, ratt
the more classes being like rhet is better. Are there
other good examples? Like all the tanks I think play
pretty differently to each other, right.

Speaker 2 (01:09:29):
Yep, definitely, Yeah, the dealers, well tanks, Like the thing
is is like once you get tanking, like you get
the bit of like using your active mitigation and like
when to use strong cool downs, and you're used to
that line of thinking that directly transfers to every tank.
But if you break up the gameplay of them, they
are they are quite different. Like like playing a prot

(01:09:50):
Warrior and a blood Yk are completely fucking different. Playing
a Guardian Druid and a Venge just even Hunter are
very very different. Right, There's some that have some similarities,
like like pressing shield block demon spikes you could kind
of like bind them to the same button, even though
there's yeah, or yeah, you, I mean you almost certainly do.
But like that element feels extremely similar, but there's other
things that are totally different too. I think tanking is

(01:10:12):
fair to say that, Yeah, there.

Speaker 3 (01:10:15):
Are some that are a lot more technical, because like
I knew, I do know, Demon Hunter is a big
one where a lot of people struggle to really grasp
dem Hunter, especially for the whole like how you set
up your movements and moms getting thread very hard.

Speaker 1 (01:10:31):
Yeah, because it's bugged Bizzard by.

Speaker 3 (01:10:33):
The way, No, no, actually, so they've they've actually done
the good job fixing a lot of the bugs. So
I don't want to be like the fake information guy,
because I mean there has been a lot of fake
information out there about demon Hunter. Demon Hunter actually has
most of its bugs fixed. The only major real bug
that I'm aware of is where if you put a

(01:10:55):
sigil out and combat state changes, so like say U
sigill before you pull the pack and then like someone
runs into the pack right your schedule is not going
to generate shit for a girl. That's the only real
bug that I know of right now. But I mean,
there were a lot of bugs in the past, and
bug or a threat is a major problem right now.

Speaker 2 (01:11:12):
For all jockey.

Speaker 3 (01:11:13):
So I'm not gonna say like it's not a problem
at all. They do need to address fat it's been
such a big problem. I know it's a bit of
a tangent, but they really need to fix this. I
don't know how frustrating it's been for all the tank
and DPS players out there.

Speaker 1 (01:11:29):
Yeah, I had a lot of trouble keeping threat on
my DH. I was hoping I could blame bugs, but
if it's just.

Speaker 3 (01:11:35):
It's not bugs. It's just a class like straight up
just functions really badly right now because you require like
three globals before you can actually start getting your damnage.
I mean way more globals. The class is just like
boggled down by millions of globals before you can actually
do any meaningful awe damage that will generate a girl.

Speaker 1 (01:11:51):
Are there other like classes that do play very similarly.
I'm trying to think, like like Havoc that's don't really
play like anything. Rogue specs, I guess the rogue specs
can sometimes feel sort of similar, like Southern Sin at
least can sometimes feel kind of similar.

Speaker 2 (01:12:08):
Mm hm.

Speaker 3 (01:12:10):
I feel like a lot of melee specs are fairly
similar in regards of like kind of just largely building and.

Speaker 1 (01:12:17):
Yeah, guess if you boil it down to builder spender.

Speaker 2 (01:12:20):
Like for many many years, like feral druid and assassination
rogue like rip was rupture and rake was groat, and
devisceriate was ferocious bite, and they were there's a few
bells and whistles that were different, but like majorly very similar.
But I think I think melee is another one of those,
and ranged where like, once you get the bit, once

(01:12:41):
you understand casting and like kind of how and when
to do that and when to move and when to greed,
when to notckreed, to where it actually starts feeling good,
you just kind of it's really easy to play other range,
where like, if you're really sick at melee, you're probably
good other melee. But it's it's absolutely a bigger jump
to like play range, even though they're both GPS. Uh.
That's why I think a lot of them feel similar.
I really respect the classes, by the way that have

(01:13:03):
three DPS specs and all three of them have very
different play styles. I think that's really hard to do,
and I think they do that well. I think Warlock
is like that. I think uh not rogue hunter Hunt,
I mean Hunter absolutely, but even Mage, like Mage made,
feels that way as well, Like Arcane is so much
fucking different than fire, right, Yeah.

Speaker 3 (01:13:23):
The last class that felt like frosty cape breath was
vent theer bumkin that shit, like yeah.

Speaker 2 (01:13:29):
Yeah, yeah, if you had a bad cool down window,
it's kind of feels like that too. Like if you
mess up your burst as a sub rogue, you you
are it's over.

Speaker 1 (01:13:38):
The best part about the ventor unkins as long as
they get stunned when they screw it up bad enough, right,
that's like, yeah, the stunt of shame.

Speaker 2 (01:13:45):
Yeah, I wonder if Blizard could ever figure out a
way to do that, right, Whenever you've looked at things
like vent their moonkin or Ashen Hollow, So three or
four minute cool downs that actually are as powerful as
they should be for that long of a cool down,
you know what I mean, Like like the Meta was
a Formua cool down for a long time, but it
wasn't powerful enough to not feel like shit that it
was that long, Like like just looking at it. Very basically,

(01:14:07):
if you have a two minute cool down and you
were gonna have a three minute cool down, that three
minute cool down should be fifty percent stronger than the
two minute cool down, right, just using basic math that
has almost never been true, and the few times that
it has, we're like a holy decay bursed for example,
on three minutes or Ashenhallow or vent their muonkin. It's
just it turns out just having one single cool down,
no matter how long it is, carry whatever you're doing

(01:14:28):
that hard. It's just like game breakingly strong, and I
wonder if they'll ever figure out a way to not
have it break the game and actually have meaningful cool
downs that are that long and as powerful as they
should be.

Speaker 3 (01:14:39):
I don't feel like it's a problem for I feel
like it should come with that cost. It kind of
sucks at times, like it's hard to remove that friction
without keeping the impact of the cool down.

Speaker 2 (01:14:53):
Well, why do you think every class is a two
minute and one and a half minute class now? It's
because I think they figured out they ears they have
not figured out a way to actually do longer cool.

Speaker 3 (01:15:01):
Yea broken, it's the same as how they removed DoD
classes for the most part.

Speaker 2 (01:15:05):
Or yeah, do you think they're going to keep that?
Do you think like dots get smoked next patch, because
like that's another hidden reason why one arm bandit was
so difficult is that, like it was a randomly really
hard boss sneaky hard, and it also required the specific
comp that people were playing alts of and that just
like compounds difficulties so much. And I wonder, I just

(01:15:26):
wonder how they view that internally.

Speaker 1 (01:15:30):
Yeah, I'm curious as all. I feel like dots, I
feel like they're gonna get nerved from where they are
right now, Like how good the dot classes are.

Speaker 2 (01:15:37):
So they learned this lesson in BFA and then they
unlearned it. It were like, we canna make dots good again,
and they're like, wait, no, no, we actually could, and
that was actually a good decision to have them. I
don't know, I love but are dots good for the
game if every single raid there's a scenario like this
where you have a multi target fight and shadow priests

(01:15:58):
are just simply it is impossible for them to not
gap everyone if dots are good, you know, like, how
do you It's hard?

Speaker 1 (01:16:06):
Can't be done?

Speaker 3 (01:16:06):
Yeah, I mean the way I see it is it
just needs to be earlier in the right tier, Like
it can't be something that happens towards vand of the tier,
like you can't have one armed bandit being the the
Dot Cleve fight of Verizon films too restrictive.

Speaker 2 (01:16:20):
Then that makes raid designs so one dimensional though, you know,
like you'd like the bosses near the end of the raid.
I mean, most single target e bosses near the end
of the raid I think usually have a higher success
chance than add add type things as far as like
players liking them. But yeah, exactly, But I also think
that is a bit one dimensional.

Speaker 3 (01:16:40):
It is, But I mean, is that really a problem
because I mean, like look, let's look at look at
SLG for example, right, Like SG was a notoriously bad fight,
but if it was early in the five and or
early in the tier, it wouldn't be as big of
a problem, whereas like, okay, sludge Face was highly regarded.

Speaker 2 (01:16:53):
Okay, multi target dots would have been good fights since BFA,
but dots were nerved. It's like, compile some lists of
bosses in your head. Have any of those bosses been
fucking bangers? Just like super goaded multi target not not
your prototypical like single target or single target with ads
bonds that you have to burn like have any of

(01:17:14):
them been sledge fist manor Roth Nexus, Princess kaive as
a Raygelon? Have they? Have they been that good?

Speaker 1 (01:17:24):
What are the fights we're thinking about here, right, Pantheon?

Speaker 2 (01:17:28):
No? No, no, later in the rate later later. So to
go with what Dorky's saying, like, basically what my line
of thinking is, if you just remove multi target bosses
from the end of a raid, do you just get
better raid bosses on average? Is what I'm thinking. So like,
what what what bosses would like Lords of Dread would
count for this, Silken Court would count for this? Uh,
you know, last three or four bosses obviously stone Leage

(01:17:49):
and that's pretty far back. But Keltha odd, has there
been a last three bosses? Kind of multi target dots
would have been insane boss where it was just super
fucking good and losing multi target bosses near the end
of the raid would be bad for the game.

Speaker 3 (01:18:05):
Does Tindrill count No?

Speaker 1 (01:18:08):
No? Does answer ac count yes?

Speaker 2 (01:18:13):
Right? Because like bro current dots on, those Acolytes would
have went crazy as fuck, same with P two Uh
not P one, But like basically P two and P
three dotting would have been absolutely insane, So answer Rek
is an example of that being true, although I think
people's opinions on answer rec can vary. Some people hate
that boss. I think that boss is great, right, yeah, depends.

Speaker 3 (01:18:36):
You also wouldn't need to thought classes for answer rec, would.

Speaker 2 (01:18:40):
You, Well, so you'd run into the issue of like
if you ran too many daughters, the AEI on the
spiders and the ae on roots and p one would
have become more difficult. And the more a wi ors
you bring, the more the uh the like accolltes would
have been more difficult, just kind of.

Speaker 1 (01:18:55):
They also would cannibalize each other, right, Like, you you
only get those spawns are far enough part that.

Speaker 2 (01:19:00):
There do you bring? The less valuable the dots are. Yeah,
the more fear to bring, the less value every single
class's birthday we is. That's why raid camp building is
the coolest thing ever in this game. Yeah, seriously, And.

Speaker 1 (01:19:15):
I do think that, Okay, dots being a strong thing
that some classes have does add a lot to raid
comp design, right, Like, yeah, it does make that more interesting.

Speaker 2 (01:19:24):
It does make it interesting.

Speaker 1 (01:19:25):
Yeah, But it's just like how many guilds in the
world are are having an interesting thought on raid comp
design versus like, Okay, well, we have to play these
people because they're the people who push buttons well, and
like hope they're on good classes.

Speaker 3 (01:19:37):
I think it also doesn't help that the Dots specs
aren't fairly balanced because right now Shadow freaks just like
hard dunks every other Dot spec. Like when I'm playing
Boomkin on, when I'm bandon, it feels so fucking bad
because I'm supposed to be a podcast, like I'm supposed
to shine, but these motherfuckers are taking all my damage.

Speaker 2 (01:19:53):
Yeah, you are the one class that isn't like super
crazy on that fight.

Speaker 3 (01:19:57):
Yeah, like even Afflock is like still inferior to Shadow priests,
like as good as a videor.

Speaker 2 (01:20:03):
Yeah, for what it's worth, though, I feel like Moonkins
don't get mad at me or I mean do I
don't care, but like I feel like with Starfall existing
and that niche always anytime Starfall is good, right, like,
Moonkins will be better at that fight than anyone else
because you have Starfall, you also probably can't have Dots.
H Does that make sense? Because like you already dominate

(01:20:26):
a niche that exists in every raid, so like do
they want to give you another one?

Speaker 1 (01:20:31):
That niche has always been near the start of a raid, right,
but like Moonkin fight, Yeah, the sticks, I guess some point, Well,
what would be an example, broodkeeper Diana kind of?

Speaker 2 (01:20:42):
I mean, okay, Moonkins would have been crazy good on
Answerk if they were not the worst class in the game, Like,
if they were just average tuning Moonkin, they would have
shredded Acolytes. They would have been so good. But they
were just they were just specifically bad in that raid,
like unplayably bad.

Speaker 3 (01:20:59):
Yeah, but I'm I mean, I mean, hell tho, I
don't really.

Speaker 2 (01:21:03):
They just did dog should damn and they were they
were very killable as opposed to unkillable.

Speaker 3 (01:21:06):
You want to very a wee damage, it sucks or
I mean very uh dot sucks because very a wee
damage is really good.

Speaker 2 (01:21:12):
We're not talking about dots here. We're talking about like Starfall,
like literally just Starfall alone. If Moonkins were tuned normally,
would have been the best Acklie damage in the entire
game because of how spread.

Speaker 3 (01:21:21):
Well, I mean, the problem is, like right now, Bumkin,
they've took away, They've moved on a damage away from
Starfall into like actual a week leave because I mean
they've been dominating m plus for a while now, because
like you know, like if you have clumped mobs, they
actually do a shits on a damage. If you're doing
like sticks, you're doing shits on a damage. But anytime
you're actually you're doing actual spread cleave if they don't
do jack shit.

Speaker 2 (01:21:41):
Well, I mean, like look at I mean sticks is
a good example, right, like Moonkin's were you needed a
certain amount of Moonkins to do O G sticks because
you the bombshells were very spread out and they were
the only class that could get them to seventy percent reliably. Right,
Like that kind of niche is what I'm talking about.
But Dratonos is right, I that has very seldom been
and I actually I'm struggling to think of a late

(01:22:03):
tear boss besides obviously Silvana's where where Starfall like completely
defined the fight.

Speaker 1 (01:22:12):
Yeah, Silph was also like it was also largely ravenous frenzy,
right there was like the the thing that made that.

Speaker 2 (01:22:19):
I mean, you could play night Fae Mooncain and they
still dominated. It was it was just how spread it was,
just how spread those uh those those chains were and
how healthy they were. They were just goaded. Intermission probably
impossible to do the intermission without a single moonken mhm,
are well we all tapped out? Are we tapped?

Speaker 1 (01:22:40):
Talking points here, we've meandered pretty far from the original question,
but it was it led to a good What was
the question? It was about like specs that played them
only to each other. I mean I feel like discussion.

Speaker 2 (01:22:53):
Yeah, yeah, a living.

Speaker 1 (01:22:56):
Yeah, I think yeah. I mean, oh, one thing, there
has been breaking news Blizzards extending the Hall of Fame
for another week again. It's like it was about to
fill or they were like, no, you guys get an
extra reset again. So I think that's a little bit
more valid though if there are any guilds that need
to do the rekills to get it, that would be
so such a cringe way to lose all of fame.

Speaker 2 (01:23:17):
No, if you guys want to buy a lockout from us,
we will give you a one armed bandit lockout. They
kill the last three and you And by the way,
you can kill all three of those bosses in one
raid week.

Speaker 1 (01:23:28):
So just let us know, can can you if you
have not yet killed those.

Speaker 2 (01:23:32):
Bosses, It's easy, it's fine, just give it. We'll give
you the right out.

Speaker 3 (01:23:35):
Yeah, Because the question is do people actually care about
the Hall of Fame or do we care about the
ranking because you would still be the same ranking, but
you just get Hall of Fame.

Speaker 2 (01:23:44):
Like does that really matter that we've talked about this before?

Speaker 1 (01:23:47):
I think yeah, we talked about this last week, which
is like, do you count the rank of getting eight
out of eight or of killing the end boss? Because
a simple fix for that would just be for like
all the ranking sites to only count when a guild
gets eight out of eight eight rather than when they
kill the end Bob.

Speaker 2 (01:24:02):
Well, the conversation I'm thinking about was actually I think
multiple months ago, or maybe a single month, but we
were talking about whether guilds like raid more while Hall
of Fame is available, and then as soon as Hall
of Fame is gone, they actually drop the raid hours
because that specific feat is now gone if they still
want to get cutting edge, But like, why still try?
We're gonna get cutting edge eventually, why continue rating this time?

(01:24:22):
And we basically came up with like, basically, I don't
we don't know if any guilds that actually operate like that.
Maybe you guys who are listening are around the world
two hundred, three hundred rank or whatever, where those decisions
are made. But that would basically give you the answer
to the question of like does Hall of Fame matter,
because people would show that with their do people pull
extra raid days in the week of Hall of Fame

(01:24:42):
to specifically get it if they're close? I my like
just using lot like that sounds like something that people
would do.

Speaker 1 (01:24:49):
Yeah, I think if you're close and it's like, hey,
we can add a Monday and get Hall of Fame
or kill it on Tuesday and miss Like I think
I I'm pretty sure I've seen guilds pulling for Hall
of Fame, but.

Speaker 2 (01:24:59):
People do that for non Hall of Fame. Yeah, like
people people like you're just near the end of the raid,
Hey we could finish this. We have four days till
our next raid. Do you guys want to rain tomorrow?
You know, Like I don't know like that happens anyway.

Speaker 1 (01:25:09):
I do think Hall of Fame is an extra motivator
that makes that more common. Like the week that if
it's the week the Hall of Fame closes, I bet
I think Player the Chrome King.

Speaker 2 (01:25:20):
Yeah, that's a cool that's cool, you know, it's a
cool title.

Speaker 3 (01:25:26):
Yeah, I mean, this is kind of like getting glad
of you're you know, like getting everyone wants to glad
of your rank one title.

Speaker 1 (01:25:31):
Yeah, we.

Speaker 3 (01:25:36):
All right.

Speaker 1 (01:25:37):
I think that that is going to be it for
our episode this week. We may be on or off
the next few weeks. We're going to figure it out.
But there may be uh break or maybe not, or
we'll try not to have a break, but there might
be one. So I don't know. Stay tuned. We'll make
a podcast whenever we then, like we.

Speaker 3 (01:25:53):
Usually will get a guess or something episode.

Speaker 1 (01:25:57):
Yeah. Sorry, sorry for the delayed episode.

Speaker 2 (01:25:59):
We had lot of scheduling conflicts.

Speaker 1 (01:26:01):
Yeah, we'll figure it out though, but yeah, thanks for
watching and listening.

Speaker 2 (01:26:07):
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Ep. 68 - The Most Dramatic Patch Ever?

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.css-14f5ked{margin:0;word-break:break-word;display:-webkit-box;-webkit-box-orient:vertical;box-orient:vertical;-webkit-line-clamp:2;overflow:hidden;}Ep. 68 - The Most Dramatic Patch Ever?