Ep. 71 - Did Dorki Really Cheat in the MDI?? - The PoddyC

Episode Transcript
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Speaker 1 (00:00):
Hey, welcome to episode seventy one of The Body c.
This week, Dorky is on trial for cheating and the
MD I, Dorky, what do you have to say for yourself?
In defense?

Speaker 2 (00:12):
I've been heavily mistreated by Bluzard. I've never felt so
unfairly over Maybe that's a little bit too early to
be using an effort in the.

Speaker 1 (00:23):
Podcast, cronkle bleep it out because it's in.

Speaker 3 (00:26):
The that's true, that's true, still a thing, but yeah,
is it like but it's only in the first like
two minutes, thirty second something like that.

Speaker 1 (00:34):
Yeah, because that's it's right after the ads that If
you ever want to know why, it's because it's right
after the ads. So advertisers don't want their they don't
want their product fresh in your in your mind when
you're hearing all the you know, sparing and stuff.

Speaker 3 (00:46):
Okay, I get it. Yeah, all right, Dorky, do you
feel do you feel justified? Do you feel cheated?

Speaker 2 (00:52):
It's been the whole fucking week now and I was
so defeated efforts, So it was like a roller course
of emotions, right, So, like we start off the day,
I played like shit that cup, that's probably the worst
I've ever played in the Cup, and then we almost
lost to Dust Can Fly. But to be fair, we
didn't really practice on our like day one keys, right
because like we had arguably the hardest Cup. We were

(01:15):
going against mandatory and perplexed for qualifying for goal of vinyls.
So we were like, all right, we're gonna lock the helen.
We're so prepared for Sunday. Like, we actually spent so
much of our practice time just like preparing for day
three because with the way the TGP format works now
where i'mdi, I guess is they give you the maps
that you're supposed to do ahead of time, like a
week ahead of time. Normally it's not that case. Normally

(01:37):
when you're doing this TGP format, it's you have to
practice off with dungeons if they just give you dungeons
and you have to like just figure it out, right,
But we actually, like practice has never felt better before.
We uh, during the last few days of practice before
the Cups, we were like smashing those keys and we

(01:59):
were looking so solid, and so you know, like Saturday
is like ah fuck, you know, like we're in such
a bad shape and the teams like kind of like
high tension and all, and then we like finally come
back in the end like a super clutch key. People
were like cheering for us, and then the admin types
in chat he was like, by the way, where did
you get those shocking disclosure potions? And I'm like, oh fuck,

(02:22):
am I disqualified? So like at first, I'm just like
all right, you know, like it's probably not a big deal, right,
Like I'm just using shocking disclosures. It'll probably just warm
me and be like all right, you know, like don't
do that, don't use those. And then you know, I
told Badmin, like I was like truthfully telling him that
I got them from my other character. Right now, that
like probably rings some alarms. It's like, all right, well,

(02:44):
if you're transferring consumables from an old character over to
a new character, that seems kind of fishy.

Speaker 4 (02:49):
But it's more so that.

Speaker 2 (02:49):
Like I didn't want to bother re leveling my alchohol
and because like the way you make tr characters is
it's super annoying. You gotta have to make a new character,
set up your binds, buy all the gear, consume bulls,
and craft whatever gear or things that you might need.
Great character and so.

Speaker 4 (03:07):
I told them.

Speaker 2 (03:08):
Then I sent the items over. But then I was like, wait,
maybe that's like a bad look to say that. So
I was like wait, but I was like, it's like Asoka,
It's also I could craft these items, but I didn't
bother doing that, and I showed Badmin's that like I
could just like go to bout Dragon and craft these.

Speaker 4 (03:23):
Items, and then it kind of just goes on and gone.

Speaker 2 (03:25):
And then Badman was like, all right, you know, we're
gonna have to like talk with the bradmins and come
to a conclusion, and they actually disqualified our runs. At first,
I'm like, okay, well, maybe I didn't know the rules
right like my bad I guess. But then I like
I dug into a rule book a little bit. I'm

(03:47):
like reading a little bit, and I'm like, wait, but
there's like literally no no rules that I broke because
I thought it was kind of weird. Like at first,
I'm like I would have like probably asked the admins
or like it probably would have occurred to me that
like maybe this is a problem, but there was like
actually no rules against it. So if admins just like

(04:09):
straight up made up some rules, like the admins type
and Chatty was like, oh, according to this rule where
you're not allowed to get items from outside of doing
a call, YadA YadA yah, and like there was actually
no rules against that. So I'm just like, what the fuck?
I just felt like I got sucked over absolutely no reason.

Speaker 3 (04:25):
I listened to like so much discourse about this, and
what the conclusion I've come to is that I think
the admins because they told a team that asked if
they could use them no, they were forced to punish
anyone that used them, but they didn't tell anyone that
that team asked and they said no, So they ended

(04:47):
up pointing through all these rules to like disqualify you.
But I think the reality because like that's how it
would be in the race too, right, Like like if
you asked Blizzard like hey, can we do this and
they're like no, and then some other team did it,
You'd be like okay, Like what gives right, Like something
has to happen.

Speaker 1 (05:02):
It's never happened before in the race that a team
has been told they can't do something and then another
team has just done it and gotten away with it.

Speaker 2 (05:09):
But also do they normally like announce that like, oh,
by the way, this is a thing and you shouldn't
be doing this well, I.

Speaker 3 (05:16):
Mean so yeah, sometimes like in an open discord, like
but that's the thing. They should have done that, like
they like, if it was disqualifiable to use specifically a
shocking disclosure, and it was able, you were able to
get them on the tournament realm. Besides, you didn't even
have to like send them on a character, right, you
could have crafted them.

Speaker 4 (05:32):
Yeah, it's anything weird, it was.

Speaker 3 (05:33):
Yeah, exactly, so, I mean it was definitely an overreaction
to uh, to disqualify all of your runs for something
so trivial. But also, like in the scenario where they don't,
whoever team asked is just going to be like what
the fuck? Like you let us play a whole cup
and you told us know and someone else did and
and you didn't punish them, so they they had to

(05:53):
punish you. But it's ridiculous that if that's the case,
that that specifically if they're okay, let's just this scenario. Okay,
a team asked, can we do anything? The answer is no.
Why would that not be publicly disclosed to every other team?
Is there any is there any answer to that that
makes sense? Yeah?

Speaker 2 (06:15):
Exactly, Like it's just ridiculous because this has happened in
the past and in fact, so there is an md
AT discord where they publicly announced maybe not publicly, but
like to at least the competitors, they will announce all
the different rules and things that are allowed or not allowed,
so they'll have like, all right, these strategies are not allowed.
These consumables or toys are not allowed, one of them being.

Speaker 4 (06:36):
Like the warned doll.

Speaker 2 (06:37):
Warn doll was one of the items that people were
using to stay in combat to keep their eye becauz
on stacks, and that was not allowed. They did allow
the parasol for going down rookery, and they had zero
mentions of like shock disclosure or like I mean in general,
they don't really mention these types of stuff, so like

(06:58):
it would make sense for strategies, right, Like they don't
want everyone to know the strategies that people are coming
up with.

Speaker 3 (07:06):
But really, if they're disallowed, yeah, why And I think
if they're banned, it's weird.

Speaker 1 (07:11):
It's definitely if it's allowed, you can't tell people, right
because like the whole point of the competitive integrity, yeah,
is that like you ask and then you you know
that doesn't just mean that everybody learns your strat right.
But I don't know, is there a category of things
they could tell you about being banned that would leak
stuff about I mean, it would definitely tell you what

(07:31):
the other teams were trying to do and we're thinking about, right, yeah,
But I don't is there stuff that they would ban
but similar stuff was being allowed that you would like
learn about from the fact they banned it. I think
probably not.

Speaker 2 (07:47):
It's just so inconsistent. That's the bigger problem because like
they have announced these strategies that have been banned in
the past before, Like it's not like it's something that
they are strict about not telling the players, like in
some of the Dragonfly seasons if they specifically mentioned that
you can't stand up intent in Ulaman to like make

(08:08):
the mobs not jump, or you're not allowed to like
you know, stand on certain spots where it might like
stop a certain mechanic. But it's funny too because I
actually asked the admins if we could do the dog
rooting tech in workshop, right. So in workshop there's the
dogs that jump and apply a de buff and if
you root one of them, it'll cause it to be

(08:30):
in spell Q where it tries to jump but it can't.
So the other dogs are waiting for that rooted dog
to jump. But because that rooted dog can't jump, the
rest of the dogs can't jump, and so the opposts
just gonna be shot. So the admin got back to
me and was like, just a circle back on the
rooting dogs strat while the fix is incoming, it sounds
like it won't be until after the weekend at least.

(08:51):
So until it's fixed, we're going to approve this dogshrat
well actually actually not the wrong one, but before that,
this was the first time I asked, I thinks a
dog will becoming shortly as it's not an intended mechanic
as such, this will not be permitted, right, So we
were all in the assumption Baba rooted dog tech was
not allowed, and then Miscount did it on broadcast and

(09:14):
you know, my what the fuck radars are going off?

Speaker 4 (09:16):
It's like, how is this allowed?

Speaker 2 (09:18):
They've specifically told me that it was not allowed, and
then so you know, I asked and for a second
time and they got back to me with what I
just said, where like it's going to be allowed, because
like they just couldn't figure out how to fix it,
so it's like, huh, like all right, so like I
can ask about a strategy and they'll tell me no,
and then like all of a sudden, it's also well,

(09:40):
I mean turns out it's gonna be allowed until it
gets fixed.

Speaker 3 (09:45):
Yeah. Yeah, that's that's baloney. And and also it sucks
because you had been using it for a while and
they got to you at the end of the day,
like for example, let's just so I'm not saying this
is like they did something really really wrong. As much
as you are justified and feeling like you got fucked,
has it been long ago.

Speaker 2 (10:00):
Well, they didn't do their fucking jobs. That's what they
showed up. Didn't even like their job is to watch
us do the keys and make sure we're doing the
right thing.

Speaker 3 (10:06):
Oh yeah, but I can tell you they they I
don't know how many people they have to do that,
cause like, let's just assume you have all day, like
you do one key and then they're like, hey, stop
using shocking disclosure potions. And even if they disqualify that key,
you're fine. Maybe I don't know if you were close
for who knows, Like you're probably fine. Right, So, uh,

(10:27):
I can tell you they're not super keen on that.
I'll give you an example of something that happened to
me in the NDI that is infinitely more trivial and
didn't end up mattering at all, but it will prove
how much, like how much they're paying attention to this stuff,
especially your practice keys. We did time Trials in Toldigre
and I played a demon Hunter and then the only

(10:47):
time I ever played a demon Hunter, and the dem
Hunter's name was Max girth Gang. Okay, that was the
name of the character. It was in all of our
Time Trials runs. We were number one or two on
the Time Trials for that week, so like, the character's
name is just fucking there. Everyone wants to see it.
We go through half fast forward to a cup. We
do an entire weekend of the cup. On the second day,
we end up having our first Toldigre it's our second

(11:09):
map in a best of best of three, and I
log on Max girth Gang for the first time and
they're like, wait, hol us, hold on a second, you
can't play that character. That is a bad name. And
for some reason on the Cernament realm, you can't like
forward a name change to a character. So they made
me remake a brand new fucking demon hunter on the
broadcast in between maps before we could play the game,

(11:33):
because I had a bad name and they had two
full weeks to look at that name and be like,
you can't have this. And it wasn't until it was
about to be on broadcast if they actually realized what
it was, right, So forget what they're watching you do
in your practice, or not even watching the names of
your characters when you know what I'm saying, like there's
not that much going on.

Speaker 4 (11:51):
Yeah, like it is.

Speaker 2 (11:52):
That's actually insane. I mean what makes it even worse
is it didn't even fucking matter. So, like there's a
lot to this, right, Like, first of all, I didn't
break the fucking rules. It's completely on the incompetency of
the admins. And second of all, this didn't even like
mad Ra at all. Like okay, like obviously I used

(12:14):
it because it was an advantage, right, Like, it's not
like it didn't do absolutely nothing at all, Like I'm
being a bit hyperbolic, but like it just helped with
potentially failing on the first pull. It's one of those
things where when you're doing like a crazy high twenty
one dark flame cleft. There are like so many different
variables that could go wrong, right, Like maybe if this

(12:36):
potion would have given me like a one percent extra
chance of this one specific scenario not fucking up, like
maybe my immolation or doesn't tick an extra time, and
that shocking disclosure could have helped, right because like a
lot of people were asking if they were like so,
like why did you even use the shot co cclosure,
Like what does it do? People were like thinking, it's
like it's like some crazy tech that I came up with,

(12:57):
but it's.

Speaker 1 (12:58):
Literally nothing sard for it's for threat. But yeah, there
weren't you know, teams were wiping the thread on that pole,
but not you guys. But it did, it did, Okay.

Speaker 2 (13:08):
I don't love about that, Like I don't think it
would have made a single difference.

Speaker 1 (13:11):
Yeah that's the thing, right, Like is that the reason
why you guys had a consistent first pull in that dungeon?
I mean, or like you said, there's a million things
going on on that pole.

Speaker 3 (13:19):
I was about to argue, like the severity of it
doesn't matter, like how good or how bad it was
if it carried a pole or if it completely different
matter that, or if it like completed matter you you
still like chose to use it for a reason or whatever.
But then I was thinking, like plague bars, right, like
you could make the same mark aout play bors, but
like when you watch the plagubar your thing, you're like, wow,
that's crazy. So then then that that makes it worse

(13:41):
and makes it more bannable, and so that in turn
should also make this less bannable. Obviously that's a bad
ex even if they could be a band for that.
But yeah, the like that was.

Speaker 2 (13:49):
Like straight up criminal like right, like they were like
straight up committing a crime. Baby, were like ropping a
bank and got agin Like I just fucking yeah, I
just like loitered in a.

Speaker 4 (13:58):
Spot that I didn't know, like no learning was allowed
and I got fucking.

Speaker 2 (14:00):
Shot sent to jail forever. Well no, I got straight
up like shot, like I just got taken out. I
couldn't even continue to play the tournament. We straight up
spent an entire month of practicing twelve hours a day.
We were like behind because I didn't even play time trials,
Like I straight up didn't get to our access. Same
with our Boomkin player. The our sense of Dannals's guild. Yep,

(14:22):
we like we just subbed in for yipsn Kess and
so like, you know, we were like already playing from behind,
and we were just like practiced so much, and we're
starting to feel good on that last week and we
just get we just get completely fucked over, like we
should have just got shot on the streets. We're just
loitering around and it's so fun because like at first

(14:46):
we're like, all right, you know, maybe none of this
shit even matters, because yeah, actually.

Speaker 4 (14:51):
But before back, you're free.

Speaker 3 (14:52):
Well it's the NBI feeling of when you lose, but
you're like, oh my god, you don't have to wake
up and practice for sixteen hours tomorrow. I feel fucking amazing.
Did you feel that it all or did the DQ
rob you of that normal?

Speaker 4 (15:02):
Well, there was a bunch to it.

Speaker 2 (15:03):
So at first, they know, you know, when they told
me I was the like hour twenty one drag or
Dark Flame Cleft was disqualified or like not counted, I'm like, well,
you guys might as well take our fucking eighteen and
twenty two, because like we I abused the funk out
of my shocking disclosure very you know, I was being pettied, right,
so I should have told the admins of that. And
then they didn't say shit, you know, they just gave

(15:25):
me an automatic response, you know, just one of those
like hey, I bought responses, like if you have any
more questions, feel free to email us at this whatever link.

Speaker 4 (15:33):
Right, I'm like, fuck you.

Speaker 2 (15:35):
So the next day, I like looked on rader io
and it was like we found additional runs that were disqualified,
placing Goaded in fourth place. So my team got fucked
out of two hundredction dollars too. Like I didn't really care,
particularly because you know, I'm just walking passed about this
whole situation. But my team got fucked over two hundredction
dollars and they're like, god damn, it's they also lost

(15:55):
out of two hundred dollars. And yeah, I mean at first,
like I didn't really care, but at the same time,
you know, I just felt so fucking defeated. So like, yeah,
even though we kind of escaped to jail. Actually that's
what I told my team before the Cups, right, like
we're like, oh shit, you know, like and I'm like,
you know, whatever happens happens, Like if we lose, it's

(16:17):
still a win because like, at least we don't have
to do any more NBI practice MBI.

Speaker 3 (16:23):
The most fascinating thing ever, by the way, you go
into a tournament where you're competing, and it's a totally
reasonable thing to be like, guys, if we lose, all
good because we just don't have to practice anymore.

Speaker 2 (16:31):
Yeah, but it feels really bad because Perplex played like
shit on Sunday and we would have completely shipped on them,
Like I mean, obviously, you know, it's like all hindsight,
like we don't actually know, but like we were feeling
so confident and their performance was like complete dog water,
and just like the feeling of we could have won

(16:53):
feels really bad.

Speaker 3 (16:56):
Yeah.

Speaker 1 (16:57):
Yeah, yeah, I don't know. I mean I saw obviously.
I I have a lot of friends on both sides here, right,
Like I cast this thing, so I'm involved in that
on the Blizzard end of it. But also one of
the members of your team is a current guilty of mine.
Two of them are former guilties. And then I got
you know you podcast hosts, So I'm very very I

(17:21):
can I can tell you that there are a lot
of you know, good people trying to do the best
job they can handling a lot of different you know,
stuff that is not necessarily all from them, right, It's
from like different people in different places and stuff. I
do think that the uh, the rules definitely should have
some more clarity about, like you know, because like if

(17:43):
if you're not actually breaking anything by the letter of
the law, and it is such a small impact thing,
I don't know. I mean again, obviously I've got a
lot of bias here because it's my guilty is basically
on this team, right, like I but I was very
sad to see it go this way. I think the
big thing is, ever since the plague borers and the
whole like rethink of the rules were like the new

(18:04):
meta is you always ask on anything, like anything at all,
you ask. You don't try and like slip one by
Blizzard anymore. You don't try and like sneak. And I'm
not saying you were with shocking disclosure, although I know
there were teams, like there were teams that were trying
to sneak the a bomb unsummoned resummoned thing by Blizzard.

(18:25):
There were teams that were trying to sneak other stuff,
like other like little exploits like that by Blizzard this
time around that I know of, And those strategies were approved, right,
Like there were teams that then submitted them and got
them approved. But like basically, if you're if you're one
of the teams out there, if you're an MDI team
that's out there and you're trying to like hope that
Blizzard doesn't notice something and the other teams don't know something, like,

(18:45):
you're not being as sly as you think. The other
teams all know about it and people are asking about it.
So if it's getting banned, if it's not being allowed,
like you're just hurting yourself. And if it is being allowed,
you're not helping yourself by not asking. So it's not
like it was, you know, five or six years ago
or whatever, where if you didn't ask about it, you
could get in that situation where the admins told the

(19:06):
other team no and they you didn't ask, and then
you get away with it because they don't want to
do like a d Q or whatever they are instead.
That's for the same reason why Mandatory got that uh
that Dark Flight or the Thicket dark Heart Thicket. Yeah,
when they got ridiculous that run, but.

Speaker 2 (19:22):
I mean that was against the rules, which like, yeah,
that's why it's weird. Yeah, because like I thought about
it too, and like a lot of people were like, oh, well,
should have just asked admins and that's kind of like
a nose shit. But at the same time, it's like
it never occurred to me or my teammates, because you know,
my entire team was like, it's not like I was
just secretly doing this on my own, and we have

(19:44):
a lot of veteran players, like not a single one
of us thought to ask about this. In fact, we
were going to use a potion of Gus, which is
also another dragonfly potion for workshop, just to like, you know,
make a gallery skip a little bit quicker. Yeah, yeah,
a jumping potion. Super cool potion by the way, And yeah.

Speaker 1 (20:01):
It's weird. How like like if you think about it
on the live servers, there's so much stuff that is
very easy to do with like buying an old potion
and then using it as like trivial to do, whereas
getting a you know, parasol on your whole team, Like
which of these do you think you could execute in
a pug trading everybody a stack of potion of gusts

(20:22):
for something or making sure that everybody actually has a
parasol toy from one of those sources of that, right,
So it's weird that, like, I don't know, I'm of
the opinion that if it's something you can do on
live it should be allowed.

Speaker 2 (20:33):
Well, but not not just that, Like it's straight up
not in the rule books, right, So it's not something
where we're like, hmm, you know, like maybe we should
ask about this because it's kind of like sketchy, because
like we did, like the mandatory situation, that was actually
us who asked about that specific thing that Mandatory did.
So Mandatory they sens a pet in Dark Earth, they
could through the wall the gate like past the first

(20:55):
boss to pull the dry head in the two Flowers,
which was like nothing really crazy, right, It's just like
a way to grab the moms. You could have just
tagged them before but gate closes, but they wanted to
be a little bit quicker going to the boss. And
we actually specifically asked this strategy to the admins because
we discussed it in our team and we're like, I mean,
isn't this kind of against the rules because you're not

(21:15):
allowed to pull beyond dungeon progressions, So like we kind
of knew that it was not allowed, but this whole
like potion shit, not a single one of us thought
that it would be not allowed for just like whatever
reason it might be.

Speaker 1 (21:32):
Yeah, I mean obviously, like it's it's not a big
enough thing that you'd be trying. You wouldn't do this
if you thought you would get banned for it, right or.

Speaker 2 (21:38):
Like yeah, exactly, like there's zero chance I would be
using But I thought it was like remotely sketchy. And
I have seen like people commenting on this as like,
oh well, like they should have seen it coming, like
if a fuck around find out right, Like, bro, we
didn't fuck around, we just fucking found out.

Speaker 3 (21:54):
Yeah. Yeah, So that begs the question, are you going
to do the MDI again?

Speaker 4 (22:04):
I will.

Speaker 2 (22:05):
I seldomly swear I would never die. I mean realistically
I will still, Like you know, I do love doing THEMDI.
I probably will at some point in the future. But
one thing for sure is if I'm playing, I'm either
committed to playing for fun or I'm committed to like
we're actually doing this for real land, I have like

(22:27):
an actual serious team doing this because the whole like
wishwa wash you in between where it's like all right,
you know, we sign up, we're like fucking around, but
then like, wait, we're actually like really serious playing twelve
hours a day, and it's getting like so fucking stressful.
Like I don't want to be in that situation, but
I want it to be either like you know, we're
actually playing for fun or we're actually playing with a

(22:49):
serious team.

Speaker 1 (22:51):
Yeah, there's there's like always practice creep with MDI teams,
where like you get five people together that each want
to play for four hours, and somehow you end up
like doing six and then eight the next day, and
then twelve, and like twelve is the new meta. It
is very hard to like force yourself not to do that.
I know there's been a lot of teams in the
past that I wanted to stream practice and like just

(23:11):
never actually do it because they you as soon as
you actually get to that spot where you get everybody together,
you realize, like, man, we are gonna like we can
do these things and have a higher chance of winning.
We're gonna do those right, and like if any of
the five people on the team want to do those,
then kind of everybody comes along for the ride. So yeah,
I get which of those you think you're leaning more
towards playing for fun or playing seriously.

Speaker 2 (23:34):
It kind of depends on the team, right, Like if
I can get together a super team and like I
know this is like a team where like all right,
you know we can't we have a solid shot at
getting at least top two, then like I definitely would
rather do that, but otherwise I would much rather do
the opposite.

Speaker 3 (23:51):
Okay, yeah, you know it's funny about an MDI super
teams like super team people. I mean, this is probably
not a hard thing to understand, like super team and
East sports or sports is like you just get a
bunch of fucking gamers or the best players and you
just put them on one team. And the thing with
the MBI is, I feel like you need continuity. You
need like the best super team, the best team, the
team that's like dude, we're gonna own are people who've

(24:13):
like played together and have done a lot of MBIs together.
That seems to like matter so much, where like just
putting a new team of gamers together is just your
I mean, maybe that's the TGP and it's more like
high key focused. I think I think you could like
live key experience just transfers over so much more.

Speaker 2 (24:33):
I mean, I think you're still right that like playing
with the same team matters so much. Yeah, you can't
just put together like the five best players and just
like there you go. You all you guys just going
there and they will win every tournament. And also like
you need that team synergy too. You can't have too
many chefs in that group. You can't have like, you know,
too many conflicting ideas. That's a very common problem that

(24:56):
happens in MBI.

Speaker 1 (24:57):
And you need like you need a good shot caller.
You need somebody who is gonna like do the strats
and the practice like and the practice you know, wrangling people,
and you need compatible personalities. Yeah, all of that is
like it's hard to gather. I know, there are even
people that work well together in raids that I think
have not worked together well and MDI teams in the
past as well.

Speaker 2 (25:16):
So yeah, yeah, I mean it really sucks when you're
in a situation where you have like two really good
DPS players and one of them is like, well, you
do the fucking job, and everyone's like, well, I'm not
doing a job like you do a fucking job, because
like like obviously they're both extremely good players, Like someone
has to take the sacrifice.

Speaker 1 (25:32):
Yeah, yeah, because if you're if you're just picking up
like the best players, you often are are going to
end up with like five kind of greedy players that
don't like doing jobs. And then yeah, that can be
a really awkward spot where like everybody's optimizing every pool
from the perspective of what's good for my damage and
not like how can I help make this work?

Speaker 3 (25:52):
Well? I mean, I also wonder in dungeons, how how
many like elite shot callers, Like one of those people
you pull, like Greg is one of these people, right,
you like play with with Mythic plus Greg or Evade
or Evade. Yeah, like just someone who's like you're in
their group and they've got that shit locked down, right,
Like I wonder how many elite shot colors there are

(26:16):
that compete in the MDI at all.

Speaker 2 (26:19):
There are very few, in fact, Like that's one of
the players that like are frequently scouted from what I've heard, Like,
I'm usually on the ends with these MDI teams, and like,
you know, I usually see the things that the public
don't really like, they don't really like see the team
Dynamics and yeah, how they're looking for players and I
know a lot of these teams like obviously not Echo

(26:42):
or Winded Bar because you know they already have Gingy,
but a lot of these other teams they're like actively
looking for these types of players who are able to
do it consistently while playing at highest level, because no
matter who it is the game, Yeah, it is by
far of the hardest role in MDI Like, it's not
doing big damage, it's not being the best healer, it's
not the the best tank. It's straight up being that

(27:03):
person that's capable of consistently calling every single thing throughout
every single dungeon while staying alive and doing competitive damage.
Because like, I have never seen a single one of
these players able to be the best of it all.
Like the best way to describe it, I'm pretty sure

(27:23):
JPC described this once is the person doing the shot
calling gets like a ten percent the buff, and that
well that the buff can vary, right, Like it'ld be
like a ten percent de buff, it could be like
a twenty percent buff, and that could be too like
whatever it is, right, like, maybe we'll do ten percent
less damage or maybe they'll die ten percent more often
or just like something right, like maybe not a heal
ten percent as much and the rate leading thing right exactly,

(27:45):
and literally somebody has to take the d buff. Why
was there a twenty first man ever, it's because having
someone in the rate of the ten percent DBFF doesn't
make any sense.

Speaker 1 (27:53):
Yeah, and it's crazy because an M plus it's even
as a higher percentage of your team, right like.

Speaker 3 (27:57):
Right, yeah, instead of twenty players, it's twenty percent of
your players have a ten percent ebuff, which, yeah, which
is why on ironically sixth man mythic plusing would be
extremely good for that exact reason. But no one's gonna
fucking do all that shit.

Speaker 1 (28:11):
Yeah, it would be so like at least at least
plenty first tick of Raid is like kind of interesting, dude,
sixth person agun plus Keystones.

Speaker 3 (28:18):
Yeah, that's complete nonsense. I don't know if anyone's ever
done that, Like I know Miras did, like he was
the sixth man for Echo, but for my as far
as I was aware, he was like doing weekres stuff.
He was a support person. He was looking over their routes.
He was not literally calling every thing that was happening
like a shot caller, Yeah, exactly. Like what I'm saying

(28:38):
is having that person on the outside would be fucking
crazy good. But also there's just there's like no incentive
for anyone.

Speaker 1 (28:45):
Bro.

Speaker 3 (28:45):
Could you imagine doing sixteen hour practice days and you're
not even playing the game, like that's that's the.

Speaker 4 (28:49):
Thing, and you're just sitting there just calling non stop.

Speaker 3 (28:52):
Yeah, Like for the race, there's there's so much upside, right,
but like for dungeons, like, what are you even doing?
What are you gonna win? Are you gonna you're gonna win? Okay,
it's not worth it, dude.

Speaker 1 (29:01):
The practice days as well are literally just the first
like minute of you know, a certain dungeon over and
over again for eight hours. Right, It's like, oh my god, Yeah,
it would be miserable. That's crazy. Yeah, that'd be super tough.
It would be so ope though, But there's just no
way that that's gonna be worth it, unless you know,
some org wants to pay somebody, you know, fifty thousand

(29:21):
dollars a season to do that or something.

Speaker 3 (29:23):
Even for money. It's just it would just be so
like not gratifying and boring. I feel like like it
would you just have to I like I would never
do that. Like I love what I do, I could
never ever do that in dungeon environment. It's just too basic.
There's just not enough going on to warrant it.

Speaker 2 (29:39):
Even though there's a reason why it's it's not a thing,
like even though it's so broken, it's just not a thing.

Speaker 3 (29:46):
Okay, So Dorky gets absolutely screwed by Blizzard and he'll
still probably do the NDI just know, whatever I there
is one thing. Whatever you said to them, if you
felt like you went over the line, if you were
like mad, just know, just know, no one's ever given
it to them worse than I did. Bro and and
fucking back in Legion during the remake thing I broke

(30:11):
Bru I thought Zorbriks actually wanted me dead for years,
Like I, I just let them fucking have it. So
just know it.

Speaker 4 (30:16):
It could be worse the idea of dealings that he
responds to me.

Speaker 1 (30:21):
Uh. Back in Legion, there was also Quinn got a
force rename as well with the Quinn Sex Quinn's X
this is rags name that they gotta got a rename.

Speaker 3 (30:31):
Look, I get it, I get the rename thing. You
don't want things on broadcast? Cool? Right, but like I
didn't just pull that character out of nowhere. That character
was all over the leaderboards. It was like, like you
should have known, man, if you had some issue at
this name. And also which which part of that name?
By the way, do you think they didn't like, did
Max girth? Gang? The gang is a gang affiliation may

(30:52):
actually their girth, but girth on its own is a
pretty innocuous word, right, and nothing going on? Well, it's Max,
I mean, that's exactly what I mean. Like like what
you assume I mean is what I mean, but like
a tree trunk could have girth, right, Like there's girth

(31:12):
is a pretty normal I don't know, I never anyways,
I mean probably a good rename because I was I
was actually up to no good. But but I could
have not been. You know, though, who knows.

Speaker 4 (31:25):
You were committing a crime. I wasn't committing a crime, sure.

Speaker 3 (31:28):
And then but also nothing happened to me. I just
had to remake a character. Dude, shout out goop. By
the way, Kevin was playing rogue and told Agora, if
you remember you like had to tricks everything to your
tank because you were like in cannons and shiit. Remember
I made a new character. Everything was good to go somehow,
there's no flaws with it, and Goop in the countdown,

(31:48):
comes in and reminds Kevin to change his tricks Macro
to the new name, and that would have bricked our
whole fucking dungeon. So like, shout out, shout out Goop
knowing and knowing he uses a tricks Macro instead of
some other form. Yeah, goaded God too soon.

Speaker 2 (32:07):
Yeah, so I will say, you know, Dannos, I appreciate
your opinion because I know you do have a conflict
of interest.

Speaker 3 (32:14):
And wait, what was Strattus's opinion?

Speaker 1 (32:18):
I carefully avoided giving one to say, really.

Speaker 2 (32:20):
Yeah, yeah, but I respect that, you know why, because
I listened to the band I don't respect okay, okay,
but okay, no, but you know I I listened to
the bench, you know, and I heard some insane bias
take from that fucking idiot titles. He was just giving
like the worst possible opinion of the situation. He was
real legit rage baiting. I could not listen to that

(32:42):
for more than five seconds. Like I was just like curious,
like I wonder where my friends have to say about
this whole situation. Turns out that Titles was being a
fucking paid chill Like maybe I shouldn't say that.

Speaker 1 (32:51):
But.

Speaker 4 (32:53):
Take about get them take about you know, fuck titles?

Speaker 1 (32:58):
Yeah?

Speaker 3 (32:59):
Amen, we hate the Bench, Yeah we do, dude.

Speaker 1 (33:03):
I was. I was dming with Squishy, another member of
the Bench recently, and he he and I have a
point of agreement that is unrelated but as completely unrelated
empty but apparently it's he thinks it's likely to get hate,
and he wants me to express it rather than him,
so that the hate will land on me and our podcast.

Speaker 3 (33:21):
What the fuck? Okay, first of all, what do you
mean so both of you listen to the Bench or
one of you listen to m a Bench member? Am
I the only your podcast member on the well? I
would never do any of those things.

Speaker 1 (33:33):
I was dming him in his capacity as like a I'd.

Speaker 3 (33:36):
Rather get shot.

Speaker 4 (33:37):
That's actually fucking true, man, Yeah, what the fuck?

Speaker 1 (33:40):
Man? But the take is delves Delves be better if
they were if there was an option to play them
more like horrific visions.

Speaker 3 (33:47):
He's going to get the hate because you're clarifying that
that's exactly well.

Speaker 1 (33:50):
I want to make sure, like, if you guys don't
like this opinion. Take it up with squishy. Don't actually
go and open a bench episode of don't do Not,
But if you open on somebody else's computer or something,
go into the comments and write your vichery all your hatred.
But basically, like perfect visions are kind of fun. I
don't know about you, guys. There's kind of a scuff

(34:11):
like release with like a giga timegate on the rewards
and stuff, and that I think people were, you know,
fairly upset about. But the actual process of like doing
solo content that's like kind of hard, and you know,
it has some pressure to it, and if you want
to do the like the hardest mode, but you don't
need to. If you want just the rewards, right like

(34:32):
you can and you can get all the rewards anyways,
and in the next week it's getting a lot easier
or whatever, so you can just get it then as well.
But like, if you want to, there's a sort of
challenge ye kind of you know, almost Mage Tower difficulty
type thing that you can do in a horrific vision
this week, and like that's kind of fun. I wish
that sort of thing was more available with delves, I
guess there's the boss.

Speaker 3 (34:52):
Like, the question is why is this the controversial take?

Speaker 1 (34:55):
Well, the people don't like the people don't aren't going
to like that. Apparently that's what.

Speaker 4 (34:59):
Squishy wants is because they're like delves.

Speaker 1 (35:01):
I don't know. I mean maybe it Squishy just undressed
to the player base.

Speaker 3 (35:05):
But couldn't you just like do all of those things
you're mentioning with visions, but like get them behind the
proper difficulty of delves and like that shouldn't affect anybody, Like,
for example, if you if you want to, like you're
you're a Gear delve guy that you like doing delves
for Gear, wouldn't you never even need to do the
highest level of delves So this could exclusively be reserved
for well, So it's a great idea promise the fact

(35:26):
that he made it.

Speaker 1 (35:28):
Yeah, they put a bunch of crests behind the higher
tier delves this season, so this season is kind of
not like this season. It's if you're farming the crests
and you want them from delves, you kind of need
to be able to do the I mean you don't
need to, but you get a lot more from the
nine tens and elevens. But like last season, there was
literally no reward for doing higher than eights. I just wish,
I wish the difficulty in Tier elevens was more like
the horrific Visions difficulty and less of the like I'm

(35:50):
getting auto attacked for five million on each of these
swings on my DPS characters, and like, I just need
to do the same kite, you know, avoid getting hit
thing that you do if you're fighting an over leveled
you know, elite mob in Classic, because like that difficulty
is just not fun for me, and the perfect vision
difficulty is fun for me. That's I guess my only point.

Speaker 4 (36:09):
I mean that's true.

Speaker 3 (36:10):
I mean I would also trust uh all of all
that sounds right, and I'm gonna pretend it did not
come from Yeah.

Speaker 1 (36:17):
I mean, we were both this was It's not like
this was his idea laundered through me. It's it's like
we both were kind of of this opinion. Anyways, you
were having a conversation. I'm sorry, man, I'm sorry, Okay,
I relapsed, Okay, I've been friends with him before the
bench and I don't know, I don't know what happened
to never bet out block him Right now.

Speaker 3 (36:35):
Dude, I haven't even before we get into like the
you know, like the the add on stuff that how
how is a living I haven't even logged in.

Speaker 1 (36:44):
I just know it's not a new patch.

Speaker 3 (36:45):
I know there's corruption. Oh it's not a new patch.

Speaker 1 (36:48):
No, the patch has been out for a month or something.
We're in the same patch. This, this same patch includes
the turbo boost was not when the patch came out.
The corruptions and herrific visions aren't when the patch came out,
and the accuplely Doos thing is also not when the
patch came out. All of those are time gated events
within the eleven point one point five patch.

Speaker 3 (37:06):
I have a question for you then, if you were
to guess, is that because Blizzard is trying to space
out things coming out at the end of a patch
and like making sure they're like every two weeks. It's
not just you get the patch and then there's the
rest of the whole season. It's like every couple of
weeks there's a new thing to kind of get. Do
you think they're spacing it out so there's always something

(37:29):
for the full season player to log in and do,
or do you think they're behind and putting stuff out
when they can.

Speaker 1 (37:35):
I feel like all of this was like ready to
the extent that it was ready when it launched at
the start of the patch. Like, there were problems with
herroric visions that they had to fix when it came out.
There were problems with the nightfall and flames radiance stuff
that they had to fix when it came out. There
were I bet there arely problems with dascably Duo's that
they'll have fix when it comes out. But it's not
like any of them were like, it's not like they're

(37:57):
still working on those things behind the scenes right now.
I don't think I think those are They're all like
in the patch files, just ready for a switch to
get flicked on them. So yeah, I think that it
is an intentional decision of staggering out the content.

Speaker 3 (38:12):
Is that so then? And okay, well then that would
mean like timegating, right, Yeah, Yeah, that's that's the big
word that I've been here in the last week or two.
Is that? So how do you guys feel about the
concept of time gating or everything that's video about this?

Speaker 1 (38:27):
Yeah, I mean I'm in a video of like the
basic idea is, like I think timegating is a word
people use as in the same way that you use
borrowed power as a way to say, like, this is
a bad thing. And I don't think timegating is inherently
a bad thing, but I think that a lot of
the decisions that they're making about time gating in this

(38:48):
point five patch are bad ways to do timegating. Like
I get the feeling with all these little bits of
minuscule like drip feed content stuff. You know, Okay, if
if you have a two thousand calorie meal and you
split that thing up into three seven hundred calorie meals, like,
all of those are satisfying, You've got a great day

(39:08):
of meals. Perfect. But if you only have like five
hundred calories and you try and split that thing up
into three smaller meals, like, none of those are gonna
be satisfying. It's all gonna it's all gonna be insufficient.
Good analogy, you know, to matter for you to actually
have anything you can feel like you can sink your
teeth into. So that to me is the problem here
is that it feels like they are you know, you

(39:30):
know that cartoon where he's like slicing the bread is
tiny thin. That's what it feels like when not only
are we timegating within this mid season patch, we're timegating
a horrific vision thing, and then we're time gating within
the horrific visions more stuff of it, right, Like the
Herby vision doesn't even come out on the patch, and

(39:51):
then the full content of the Horrific Visions isn't even
out when it does come out, and it feels like
it's it's just too much of a drip fee. Like
I'm inherently somebody who wants to you know, binge games
at the start of a season, and I get that
it shouldn't necessarily always be that fully. You know, here's
a bunch of stuff and then nothing for six months
or three months, and then a bunch more stuff and

(40:12):
then nothing for another three months like that, that cycle.
I could see why Wow wants to be less like that,
But I think they've moved a little bit too much
in the fully spread out direction. I don't know.

Speaker 3 (40:24):
Yeah, So, first of all, I'm so glad you made
that video because I was just going through this on
my stream the other day where people were really talking
about time gating, and I was just like, you, there's
something about this that's just off. I don't want to
tell you you're wrong. I'm not even playing the patch right now.

Speaker 1 (40:42):
I'll say that video is currently below ninety percent like ratio.

Speaker 4 (40:46):
So the people are people.

Speaker 1 (40:47):
Oh no, I'm not.

Speaker 3 (40:49):
I'm not surprised that people are giving you backlash for it.
But I also, without even watching the video, know that
you're right, like at least specifically about as soon as
you even brought it up where you just mentioned that
timegating is the new like just just word like trigger
word that people are using and they just don't. Yeah,
you're you're so that's so based. I'm so glad you

(41:11):
did that. I'm gonna watch that. Yeah, I'm gonna steal
that content for sure.

Speaker 1 (41:14):
Go for it. Yeah, push push the like ratio down
as part or do.

Speaker 3 (41:17):
They not like about it? Was that you're a blizzard
chill like they like? I mean, when people are pretty
angrily using the word timegating and then you make a
video saying that, like, hey, I feel like people don't
really understand time getting, it's not surprising that all of
those people are mad at you. Yeah, because you're telling
them that they don't really understand what's going on in
a way.

Speaker 1 (41:34):
So yeah, I mean, and it's tough because like I
I'm bringing, I'm trying to bring a sort of nuanced
to take here. There's like, yeah, there are a lot
of problems with how they've done her visions this time.
But like the answer to this isn't just never timegate anything.
The answer this is just do better timegating. If we're.

Speaker 3 (41:52):
The bad time gating takes do Like I actually asked
that question, like do you guys just want everything right away?
And they're like yes. So it's like, okay, so just
make infinite content. Still space things out, but just have
more content and don't ever delay.

Speaker 1 (42:03):
I mean, obviously, if they could just make six times
as much content and then we have like a full
path release every month and a half and you know,
full micro patch stuff every two weeks, like yeah, that
I've done for that, that would be cool.

Speaker 2 (42:14):
The thing is when it's and it's good time gating,
people don't call it time gating.

Speaker 4 (42:18):
That's right. That's the thing, like you know, the time
gaming that timegating is.

Speaker 2 (42:23):
Used disparagingly, right, Like it's not something they'll say if
it's oh, like you know, it's good time gating. It's
just part of the game, you know, like gonna say
it's time.

Speaker 4 (42:32):
Being at all.

Speaker 2 (42:34):
What's the funny thing is, I saw his comments in
Draddles' video. Somehow Max Scott caught up in this to.

Speaker 1 (42:42):
The did I do.

Speaker 3 (42:48):
Payment deals today? I didn't even I wasn't even live.
What do you mean.

Speaker 4 (42:53):
Today?

Speaker 3 (42:53):
We both went to Blizzard, we interviewed Ean, right, so
naturally we want that opportunity again. So we're never gonna
say anything bad about Blizzard. We're on their side.

Speaker 1 (43:02):
That's which is true, by the way, so true that
you're to shill. Okay, time you hear us being critical,
it's so that we can keep our credibility so that
for the important stuff we can hill more effectively.

Speaker 3 (43:13):
I have a question about time getting. If you make
where we're we're game developers and make a brand new MMO, Okay,
what most people who create an MMO will do is
they're going to have that first patch of content at
least done by the time the game releases. Because if
you're releasing an MMO and you're already behind, you're you're fucked, right,

(43:33):
So question, you release the MMO, but you don't release
the first patch content when the game comes out even
though it's done. Is that time gating?

Speaker 1 (43:45):
Yeah? I mean so that's bad you definitely yes, righte.

Speaker 3 (43:52):
Fuck you game for doing that, right, They should never
do that. I should give us all the content right away.

Speaker 2 (43:56):
So I want I want to use General's example again,
his whole calorie example. Like, while it is true, like
you know, if you have three thousand calories to consume
for every day and you split it across three portions
or wherever many, it's not as big of the ill
because you know, like you still have you can you
can still get an entire day's worth of calories. But

(44:20):
what makes it feel really good is if the budget
is much higher save Like you know, you can have
up to six thousand calories and you can choose to
get how much however much calories you want much food
by the way, Well yeah, but that's like the upper limit, right.

Speaker 1 (44:35):
God blessed these United States of America.

Speaker 4 (44:37):
Yes, sir, yep aim it.

Speaker 2 (44:39):
But uh, you know, when you look at games like
Classic World of Warcraft or when lost Ark first came out,
those felt really good to play because you could just
binge as much as you want, right, Like you could
have just jumped into Classic World of Warcraft if it
was like zero time gating going up until max level,
which is just an insurmountable wall. And it kind of

(45:00):
felt the same with lost Ark, right like when we
were playing lost Ark when it first came out, it
was like, all right, there's like so much content. You
get to like max level, then you're getting to like
thirteen hundred item level, You're doing all these islands, you're
doing all these different Raisin dungeons, and there's just like
a ton that you can consume. That's when it doesn't
feel bad. But if it's just like you know, small

(45:21):
portions here and veer kind of like what Ganas was saying,
especially with this whole Visions situation, it feels pretty bad.

Speaker 3 (45:29):
Yeah. If you're releasing a bunch of patch content and
none of it feels like it fills you up, You're like,
where's the rest of it? Your wife to wait two
weeks for this thing, and I have nothing to do
right now. Yeah, it feels like shit makes sense?

Speaker 1 (45:40):
Yeah exactly. I mean, like a lot of people's experienced
Visions is log in, do thirty minutes two an hour's
worth of stuff, and then you see a bunch of
like red stuff that's like, hey, you can't do this
yet this week, right, like this is this is currently
not available. Get this next week, and like that is
what dork he was just saying exactly like you you're
running into that, but.

Speaker 3 (46:01):
Not only can you not binge it, but you can
literally see the content that's there. You just can't do it.
Like how bad is it? Like like, for example, how
much worse does it feel if you know, right, like
you know what's gonna come later in the patch and
you know you can literally see it not being available
on your screen versus you just getting what you get
and then just going with that. Right, that's the that's
the MMO, the new MMO argument, right, Like I guess

(46:23):
like right now, for example, maybe a lot of people
don't notice like they're working on next expansion in next raid,
like literally as we're completing the previous raid for the
first time, right, but like maybe you don't so it
could be done before you, that that patch could be done.
But you as long as you don't know, you feel
like you're not being timegated or if there's enough for
you to do. Maybe the issue is that timegating has

(46:44):
now been associated with the feeling of bad right like
it is. It is a It is a purely negative
thing when you could timegate something and it make like
the MMO example, where it makes perfect sense, right if
there's enough content already. So, yeah, you may have video
where you chose a buzzword knowing it was a buzzword,
explained it was a buzzword, made all the people using

(47:05):
it mad, and on top of that by saying that
you didn't quite understand, probably before they even listened to
your argument, they went to the comment section immediately to
call you a blizzard shill?

Speaker 1 (47:13):
Is that what happened?

Speaker 4 (47:14):
Yeah?

Speaker 1 (47:15):
I mean, okay, look, it's still not almost nine likes.
You know, there's still a lot of people.

Speaker 4 (47:20):
Who who that's slow for Dragon? Those video very.

Speaker 1 (47:25):
Wonder Okay, Like of my last videos, i'll let you
read out the like ratio. It's eighty nine point two
right now on this one, and then ninety eight point
five on the one before ninety six point five to
the one before ninety episode. Yeah, this one is U
has got like quadruple the dislikes as usual, which I
don't know. I mean, I knew that would be a
likely outcome when I released it. It's still I thought

(47:45):
it was a especially because in so I made a
Horrific Visions sort of tips and guide video thing on Tuesday,
and in that I sort of ranted about the time dating,
and then I went back and I was like, well,
I find myself a little bit too far on the
anti timegating side in this rant, and like, I I
don't think I gave a fair you know, defense of

(48:07):
using it in as a good tool in future.

Speaker 3 (48:10):
And well you got you got owned as if you
did though, Yeah.

Speaker 1 (48:14):
Well it's yeah, that's all good. That's the these are.
This is the price you pay when you agree to
become a Blizzard shill.

Speaker 3 (48:22):
So that's true. And and depending on your thumbnail and
your title can definitely matter to you. Like the thing
I always remember with that is Preach when he made
the like I'm not making Wow content, like he made
daily Wow content for like forever, and then he just
stopped and the video was just him saying I'm not
quitting Wow. I might come back. I want the game

(48:43):
to succeed, but like, I'm just not going to make
daily Wow content anymore, which is the most like, not controversial,
totally reasonable thing. Ever, it was also during like the
Shadowlands like lawsuits and like it was like very approved,
high approval to say those things, right, But the thumbnail
the title made it seem like I'm quitting Wow because
this game is shit. That was the vibe given across

(49:04):
by the thumbnail and not only the comments of that video,
but like if if like Preach got brought up in
a Wow stream for a while.

Speaker 2 (49:12):
People were still to this day, yeah, I literally yeah,
I mentioned his name once and then people would be like, oh,
well that guy quit Wow forever and now he's making
wound videos again.

Speaker 4 (49:22):
Like bro, that's not what he said.

Speaker 3 (49:23):
But he didn't see at all. He didn't The entire
video did not give any of that. But it doesn't matter.
People didn't watch the video. They just they just saw
the thumbnail and they saw the sentiment. And it was
at a time where like so many people were leaving
Wow to do other things where they were like, all right,
add him to that list. Fuck that guy, and then
then your your reputation. I just think, I honestly think,

(49:44):
like specifically, a case study on exactly that video and
the contents of it versus the title thumbnail are like
fascinating to me. It totally changed to the opinion of
a person.

Speaker 2 (49:52):
Yeah, we got we gotta make this thumbnail spicy. It's
gonna be something like Dorokey Quit's md I Forever Huge
Drama or something like that.

Speaker 3 (49:59):
That'd be really, that's not even huge drama because you've
said that like fucking twenty.

Speaker 4 (50:03):
I never said that before.

Speaker 3 (50:04):
You just always do it again.

Speaker 4 (50:06):
I never said that before.

Speaker 3 (50:07):
You have watcher right now on this podcast. I'm pretty
sure I link the source are okay, man. But anyways,
this whole.

Speaker 2 (50:20):
Time getting thing reminds me of the beginning of a patch,
you know, when all that comes out is the new
Island or whatever, like the new Undermine, and everyone's bitching
about like well, where's the content? Like what am I
supposed to do? It just feels unsatisfactory. It's like you
go in there, you do your quests, you unlock the

(50:41):
new zone, and then well, now what, like where's my
n plus, where's my raid? How do I can even
bev Bee?

Speaker 1 (50:48):
At least there's like a pretty wide set of the
player base that does get good value on the first
week of the patch. It's not us, but like people
for whom the questing and like, oh, there's a new
wrap and a new rare you know, to farm or
whatever for some.

Speaker 3 (51:02):
Exactly not to feel fomo. Yeah, exactly, like the Blizzard
does not want that massive amount of people to feel
like they can't do all that stuff because they have
to just get in keys and start grinding away.

Speaker 1 (51:12):
But though that section of the playerbase was, along with
pretty much everybody else, a section that busted their head
into the bad side of the timegate with the Herbic
Visions thing, if they were even still playing this late
to the patch, which obviously not everybody is not. I
think the you know, the point x point five patches
in the middle of the expansion are probably among the
lowest dips in the player base, and I suspect that.

(51:34):
I mean, anytime there's any kind of time gating, people
always bring up the argument to like a Blizzard or
doing this for more subs, which I think is a
little bit like I think they're trying to I think
people will come at this the wrong way because like,
obviously Blizzard want more people sub to the game, but
like the way you do that isn't by making the
game worse, right, it's by making the game better. And

(51:54):
I think they're trying to come up with new ways
to make the game better with like like this point
x point five patch I think is an experiment from
them of like, hey, what if we do a bunch
of kind of medium sized features and we spread them out,
Like will that be better? I don't think the idea
is like, oh, yeah, we'll do this and then we'll
fomo them into being subbed for three months when they
would normally sub for month one. I think it's like
this is going to be more fun for people, and yeah,

(52:16):
then they'll be sub to the get like more people
will play our game because it's more fun, right, But
like we're trying to make the game more fun to
get us more players rather than torching the game being
fun for more players in some as if that would
ever work right and any kind of sustainable.

Speaker 3 (52:28):
Yeah, I mean it just depends on your opinion of Blizzard. Like,
and I would say a decent amount of people that
would look at it from the lens of like Blizzard
is always doing this to like fucking they picture them
in their head, they close their eyes and it's like
a like Bobby Kotik, It's like like like a goblin
reb in his hands together, like like trying to get money. Like,
if you see that, like, your opinion is always going
to sway towards things like that because you just don't

(52:50):
have trust in them. It's a bad bad faith, right,
you don't. You don't agree with their shade. They're they're bad.
But I think this submodel.

Speaker 1 (52:58):
Dude.

Speaker 3 (52:58):
Actually he mentioned this recently in a I don't know
if either of you saw it, but he had like
a there was a game developer conference and Ian had
like a one hour presentation and did you either of
you see it?

Speaker 1 (53:11):
I saw that it happened. I didn't watch it yet.

Speaker 3 (53:13):
Bro, you you of all people, should watch it. It's
fucking fascinating. He mentions like desire you know, desire paths
are yeah, so like he used desire paths as a
example of like game design, and like you should basically
never try to do what cities do, which is they
try to cover up the desire path with a with
like a bench or a trash can or something like.

(53:33):
You should probably if players are showing you they're playing
the game a certain way, you should adhere to it. Right.
There's a lot of like wow, corollaries and lessons they've
learned from their PEE one and PE two is like
probably a perfect fucking example of like a desire path. Anyways,
he doesn't. He talks about a lot of things, including
that uh in that thing, and I just think you,
of all people should, Yeah, I definitely you would. Really,
it's right up your ally. I watched and reacted the

(53:55):
whole thing and it was fascinating. But like, okay, here's
another thing though. If Blizzard is trying to like like
get more people to stay subbed, which is like their
best idea for business to do that, they need to
make the game more likely to have you want to
sub to it outside of you know, the major patch

(54:17):
releases or something. And I feel like that is a
pretty wholesome work should be that should work for everybody.
If you're a player and Blizzard is fighting harder to
get your sub outside of those patch release, that is
good for you, right it. I mean they've done a
million things for it, but like them just releaching, releasing
more content threat a patch, or like the trading post

(54:40):
or all the things you could kind of say like, hey,
these are kind of specifically made to like, you know,
you want to be here for the whole six months.
I feel like that community of players has felt kind
of left behind, especially since artifact power has been gone
from the game, Like that was one thing. The artifact
power is like those people were fucking there, like there
was always something to make your characters stronger. Those people
are so happy during the years where people who were

(55:02):
not all season players kind of felt like they were behind,
And now I think they're doing stuff for that. So
I don't know if that notion of like, oh, Blizzard
is trying to do more to get subprices, I think,
you know, I'm not saying they don't specifically do some
like big corporate business shit, but I'm just saying a
lot of the stuff that they've done, it makes sense that,

(55:22):
like you, as a player, I personally don't view it
as like a there's stuff they do that I think
is bad that that doesn't seem evil. It seems like
they should be fighting for your attention in a sub
based model. That sounds good.

Speaker 2 (55:35):
Yeah, I was gonna go back to the whole calorie
argument again.

Speaker 4 (55:43):
Or whatever.

Speaker 2 (55:47):
On one hand, it's it's like, yeah, Blizzard is trying
to just keep you consistently fed the whole time, but
a lot of players they kind of just want to
binge and just be done. You know, I think those
are the players that are more unsatisfied with this. Like
it's like, yeah, sure they could be playing all six months,

(56:08):
which is great for a sub and great for a
lot of players, but there are also a lot of
players who just want to be able to play the
game for like two weeks, kind of like an AARPG, right,
Like you'll play the album four for a couple of weeks,
have a great time, and just like been through all
the content and then quit and they're completely satisfied.

Speaker 3 (56:25):
Yeah, I think agree. We all agree that they haven't
given us enough calories.

Speaker 2 (56:29):
Yeah, right, that's but just imagine if if if arpg's
had that same model of like all right, well, like
you're not going to be able to get to a
certain item level until the next week or of a
week after totally yeah, like if you had to play
back for the entire month.

Speaker 1 (56:46):
Like D four does events outside of season launches, and
it's so weird to me, Like, oh, they did like
a berserk CoA collab thing, which I'm not a berserk head.

Speaker 3 (56:57):
And they introduced leader boards. It was like halfway through
it season for the first time, and it was like,
clearly that's an emphasis of theirs was like, let's get
people playing. We're no longer the ARPG where you play
for a weekend. We're gonna be the one where you
log in three weeks later. It's like, bro, I know
a lot of people play airpgs, like, ain't a single
one of them gonna do that shit. And that doesn't
mean that the game is bad that people play the

(57:17):
game that way. It's actually a lot it's nice to
do that.

Speaker 1 (57:20):
Yeah, maybe just beause I'm out of touch with the
like couch Diapolo players that actually are going to get
hit by those sorts of things. But it almost seems
so weird to me because every single Diapolo event that's
been like that, I've just had zero interest in logging
in for. But I would have if there was, like,
you know, at the start of the season, perhaps so
you want to know, Ay.

Speaker 3 (57:37):
We're out of touch with the average Diabolo player thing.
This is a real stat. Yeah, in Diablo three and four,
the majority of the player base in both games does
the campaign and then quit.

Speaker 2 (57:51):
Yeah, I'm I don't think that surprising adult you know,
that would basically be me mm hmm. But that's how
I cheat a lot of these.

Speaker 3 (57:57):
Yeah, but like bro for an arpg lord, the game
literally begins when the campaign is over. Like that that
is that is, that is why you play the game
is when it's over. And to know that the majority
of people are fucking putting back a few bruise on
the couch and just fucking slaying demons and picking up
lout is like, that is the majority of That is
the diablm That's not the Poe one player. That's the

(58:19):
diabolo player though.

Speaker 1 (58:21):
Yeah, yeah that's uh as wild.

Speaker 3 (58:26):
I don't know anyone like that me neither.

Speaker 1 (58:28):
Yeah, but clearly it's like.

Speaker 3 (58:31):
You are not a fucking couch dad.

Speaker 2 (58:33):
Okay, I'm not a couch dad, but I do enjoy
Arpach's for their campaign.

Speaker 4 (58:38):
And then usually it's like I don't really care about
end game too much.

Speaker 3 (58:40):
Like you watch the cut scenes and you're like.

Speaker 4 (58:42):
Dude, yes, yeah, but not that way.

Speaker 1 (58:47):
Cut scenes.

Speaker 3 (58:51):
I'm not that way. What do you mean, not that way?

Speaker 1 (58:54):
You seem a degree of pleasure from a cut scene.

Speaker 3 (58:57):
Oh no, no, that wasn't nutting. I I was just
I was just like, this is awesome, okay.

Speaker 1 (59:04):
Dude, MAXI a couple weeks ago you were talking about
watching all the cut scenes in your Expedition thirty three
play through if you finished that game.

Speaker 3 (59:09):
I made it, okay, so well, not gonna spoil three.
You guys should play the game. Fantastic, fucking It's one
of the best games I've ever played. I watched cut scenes,
uh until the point in the game where like, I
feel like they made you really care about a bunch
of shit and then they just kind of made it
all not matter. Yeah, okay, And when that happened, I

(59:31):
was like, bro, what the fuck? And then I just
didn't watch a single other one. But that was like
kind of near the end of the game. So I
made it a decent bit. Yeah, I was still could
we could beat that out? I think that's like pretty basic,
you know, it's whatever. Someone might not have that opinion subjective. Yeah, yeah. Uh.

(59:52):
We have add ons and we have the like method
echo player swap thing. Where do you want to get door?

Speaker 2 (01:00:01):
I mean, we are we trying to cover all of
it or what like like both topics? No, no, no, I'm
just I'm just asking.

Speaker 3 (01:00:09):
Well, I guess like the method and echo one might
not be too long.

Speaker 1 (01:00:15):
That will take a while, and it's also we already
covered it a little bit after our interview, like we
actually haven't learned an awful lot of new stuff since then.
It's just.

Speaker 4 (01:00:24):
Isn't it pretty?

Speaker 2 (01:00:26):
Isn't it like a pretty big revelation the whole Yeah,
they're gonna remove CD tracking.

Speaker 3 (01:00:32):
Okay, it's so funny, Like we talked about it and
all of that information was available, and then there was
a pc gamer article where Wowhead came back to Twitter
to post about it, and then did.

Speaker 1 (01:00:43):
You guys see it? By the way, I went back
to Twitter. Oh my god, it's crazy. Yeah, they like
ghosted Twitter for two months or something and everybody else does.

Speaker 3 (01:00:53):
Yeah, Twitter is uh inevitable, but they they uh which
by the way, there were so many comments in that
tweet three because I saw the tweet and I'm like, bro,
I know there's some assholes in here just being like yo,
how'd blue Sky go? And it's just there's so many
of them. But the uh, yeah, they they they basically

(01:01:13):
just announced what was in what they said in that
interview as far as I could tell, and then it
was just like this big fucking deal that everyone was
talking about.

Speaker 4 (01:01:23):
Yeah, I mean nobody watched your videos.

Speaker 3 (01:01:25):
Yeah, it's not to say realized. That made me realize.
Like I went on stream to like spit about this
after it was over and when I came back from
my vacation and people were like yeah, And then I
had the exact same conversation after that article and people
were like so emotional about it. I'm like, this is
this is the same thing. We've already talked about this,
but you know, yeah, people people don't listen, but reading easy.

Speaker 2 (01:01:48):
Yeah, oh yeah. I didn't know about iver like shut up.
I just saw it posted on Wildhead or some shit
and it was like, oh, wow, this is a pretty
big deal.

Speaker 3 (01:01:56):
Well there is a new one. Actually, I believe Drina's
I don't know. I don't think we talked about this
with him during the interview or afterwards, but they said
that like you won't be like basically, you're not going
to be able to like have UI based stuff in
like you're not gonna you're gonna have Blizzard based buff
and de buff tracking.

Speaker 1 (01:02:16):
Right, which I mean it makes sense. Like when you
think about the objectives they want to accomplish, a lot
of them make sense with like hey, we don't want
you to be able to track this. We don't want
you to be able to track this, but like the
functionality that you can use to work around and track
those things is so much that they'd have to restrict
so much in like raid or dungeon combat so that

(01:02:39):
you couldn't work right, Like everybody all pointed out right,
it's like, oh, you don't want me to track the
cool down to this of my friend's abilities. Well, what
if my friend instead of pressing star surge or I
guess you know, cele selstial alignment, right, some cool down,
they instead press a button that's a macro that says, Okay,
tell everybody's macros that I've press celestial alignment and then
casteless the alignment, right, Like, you'd have to break so

(01:02:59):
much different workarounds that exist for it that.

Speaker 3 (01:03:02):
Which they're permitted to do. Yeah, yeah, that's that they
they want to do all that. But I think maybe
just having it all on paper I think made people realize, like, yo,
that is like so much. That's it's a huge thing.
And also I think people aren't aware of the time
frame because they also didn't listen to things because like
the interview doesn't mention this is coming eleven point one
point seven, but also doesn't really explicitly mention this is

(01:03:25):
going to come out. In my opinion, it's gonna take
years to implement this stuff, a long fucking time. They're
basically just letting you know what they're planning on starting
to do. As far as I know they're they haven't
even started doing most of that shit. Uh. And it's
not all going to come out at once either. Uh.
But I think people just saw it and they were like, dude, wait,
what the fuck, Like, my shit's going away? And totally rightfully, so,

(01:03:47):
if Blizzard implements all or some of these things, and
they also at the same time remove the add ons
that work in that way and you just have to
use that, you are right as a player to be
very skeptical of that not making the game significantly worse.
Like the cool Down Manager is a great example. It
should be what these little UI packages that you see

(01:04:10):
on everyone's UIs. It's really helpful. There's a reason people
have them. It's very good. It makes you better for sure,
to have better information displayed you. And it's terrible it
doesn't work well enough, right, So like you're looking at that,
like all right, well, the cool down Manager is is
like its first attempt of like kind of doing any
of this, and it was really bad. So like, you're

(01:04:32):
gonna do all of this, and like what happens if
all of this is bad and I can't use these
add ons anymore? Like this game is going to be
significantly less fun for me, a mythic plus or Raid player,
for sure. So I'm I came to a I want
to hear what you guys think, but I came to
a pretty strong conclusion after you're looking at at an

(01:04:53):
on stream that I feel like they have to do
something that they, at least when we were talking to them,
did not commit to do. But I think there's literally
no other alternative.

Speaker 4 (01:05:01):
So there's a lot to cover.

Speaker 2 (01:05:03):
But I do want to say first and foremost, it's
gonna be an extremely unpopular opinion, especially amongst our viewers
and like the type of people who are playing our
type of content. W Ion, I love what he had
to say in this PC Gamer article thing. He said
a lot of good things.

Speaker 4 (01:05:24):
Well, so I.

Speaker 2 (01:05:26):
Have been of the like you know, I've I'm one
of the anti add on. Andy's right, Like I remember
saying before about like.

Speaker 4 (01:05:34):
It would be cool if they just scorchedurf.

Speaker 2 (01:05:36):
Add ons, and you know, like we just played the
game of our add ons, but you know a lot
of people love their add ons, and there's clearly a
ton of backlash. In fact, then I talked about this
on stream and like a lot of my viewers also
feel like what the fuck are you saying, Like you know,
we need these add ons, et cetera. It's just like
wild players have been so conditioned to requiring add ons
to the point where they're gonna look for workarounds and like, honestly,

(01:06:00):
I don't think this is gonna work right, Like I
think this will be either Blizzard fails and if you're
just gonna like it's gonna be like private auras or
build fuck up big time at least for like the
first patch of when this comes out, and then it'll
eventually get good, right because Blizzard does have a long
history of this, like, well, we're making X change so

(01:06:21):
that we can design the game differently and you no
longer need this X or for example, the player health change.
Remember when they changed play your health or healing one
of those two where they made healing effectively weaker so
that it's no longer as spiky. Even what happened in Dragonfly,

(01:06:42):
we had like the most one shoddy seasons ever. HP
bars are spiking like insane, and the tank nerves right,
like the tank nerves were something where they wanted better gameplay,
if they wanted tanks to actually receive some healing instead
of just all right, if you don't press your DEFENSI
if you die here. They completely fail to accomplish these goals,

(01:07:02):
and then it makes sense for players to be skeptical
skeptical about any type of grand decisions Blizzards making. But
at the any of the day, like I do support
what Ion is trying to do, Like he sees the problems,
he saw all the issues that I've mentioned in the
past of like, it's kind of lame when you're just

(01:07:25):
doing a boss fight and the entire mechanic is all right, you.

Speaker 4 (01:07:29):
Go to diamond and you don't even know why you're
going to diamond.

Speaker 2 (01:07:32):
It's just like it's the mechanic, it's what the weak
or says, or you have to do this dispel order
like X person dispels first and then be the spell next.
Like that that just removes ventire interesting part of rating.
And if they're willing to make these types of decisions

(01:07:53):
for a greater good of the game. I like completely
support ion, assuming they're able to accomplish this. Like I
I'm exectionly skeptical myself. I also feel like they're probably
gonna fail, but well, I do.

Speaker 3 (01:08:06):
Appreciate what he's pretty important too, Like the cool Did
Manager came out and they didn't disable we Go or
a based you eyes, Like, I'm assuming when they release
this stuff, they're not gonna do it and be like
all right, this ship's fucking gone, like they're going to
release it and make it. Like for example, the Cooler
Manager right now is bad. I bet, all right, this

(01:08:27):
might not happen, but I would bet in two years
from now, I bet the cool Did Manager will probably
be really good because they've made a lot of things
that have released that are great now that released in
a horrible place and two years later, like they it's
just so common that they release something in its intention
and it's bad and then it just becomes way better
over time. Almost nothing is released like great, which it's

(01:08:49):
just like how it is, you know, they it just
doesn't happen. So I imagine none of these things will either.
That's why I'm saying this is gonna take years because
if they take if they do all of this, if
they if they make all these things, they they they
can only like disable the add ons at a point
where they feel like all this stuff is actually working
and good, which is going to take much.

Speaker 2 (01:09:06):
They're trying to remove certain parts specifically, right, like the
whole CD tracking, like that's not going to be native
to Wow, they just want to straight up and get
rid of it, right, Is that I understood correct?

Speaker 3 (01:09:15):
That that is one of the few things that they're
removing that are they are not adding and add on
replacement for. And that I found kind of interesting because
like in PvP, that's like one of PDP's biggest complaints.
They're like, bro, PvP started to suck when everyone had
these like spaceship UI that just showed you when everyone's
like kidney and everything was gonna come up. But if
you look at PvE, like you have interrupt trackers, which

(01:09:38):
everyone has had on their UI forever because that's like
super basic and it's been necessary. You have people that
and I've now listened to a a Dratnose video about this.
I didn't the other day when I talked about it
on stream and now I have, and he made an
excellent point where there's a lot there's a there's a
few people in mythic plus at the high end who
have these like stop like they have all the stops

(01:09:58):
listed and that actually matters for them. And then you
have a lot of people that have it on their
UI for absolutely no reason and they never look at
it or call it whatsoever. It's just there.

Speaker 1 (01:10:09):
But if it gets kicked, it gets kicked. Has nothing
to do with me.

Speaker 3 (01:10:13):
Yeah.

Speaker 1 (01:10:14):
Yeah.

Speaker 3 (01:10:14):
So but if Blizzard, if you're gonna make the argument
that here's the argument, I can see where it makes sense.
And I don't know if it's something they should do
in PBE, but if they made it to where the
content they were making for you was still difficult but
did not necessarily require you to track those stops or
track kicks, I think it would be really good because
it would if they did that, well, we don't even

(01:10:36):
know what that content looks like. It's pretty foreign to
what it is now, right. I think that would be
to do a good job of like reducing the skill
between like the very very high end and like the
average players, because like average players just do not do this,
and high high end players have access to this information.
But I also don't think that's something that high end
players like, that's not a difficulty in a skill gap

(01:10:58):
that they enjoy, like, oh you know what I can do,
I can do this. And also like fucking micromanaged thirteen stops,
like they fucking hate that shit. They just want to like.

Speaker 2 (01:11:07):
There's not a single person that actually, if there were
people that actually enjoyed visit, we wouldn't have that discussion
earlier about having to find a player that's willing to
call all the kicks in stop right, Like nobody enjoys
VET and that's a part of the game VET blizers
trying to actively remove I assume.

Speaker 3 (01:11:23):
Yeah, so in a way, when I saw that, after
going through all that line of thinking, I'm like, this
could end up being a good thing, even though there
is no replacement. But again, if it was removed tomorrow,
it would be it would suck. Right.

Speaker 1 (01:11:36):
It's like in League, right, where like you know you
can have you know, overlays the track certain things or whatever,
but like, I don't know, that's not the fun part
of the game, right, Like the fun part of Wow,
isn't the stuff that the add ons do for you,
and it certainly isn't then the arms race, where because
everybody has a good kick tracker now Blizzard makes you
actually need to use five kicks per twenty seconds on
an interrupt, like on a pack of mobs, right, And like,

(01:11:58):
if we could instead move to a world where hey,
you don't have those trackers and there's only three kicks
in that twenty second window that need to happen, right, Like,
that would be better. And I agree Like listening to
Ian talk about this in person and reading the interview,
he's saying all the right things about like like he
clearly he has a lot of clarity about what the

(01:12:19):
challenges of this are going to be and why this
is a thing that's worth doing. And I think there's
a lot of great reasons. Right Like ad ons suck
for new players, they also suck for us, right, Like
we don't enjoy that part of the game of the
fact that so much of problem solving and wow is
figuring out how you can not think about how to
solve a mechanic and instead make a machine and think
about it for you, right, Like, that's not fun. It

(01:12:41):
would be much more fun if if the way that
you do a hard mechanic was by yollowing it and
learning some good heuristics for how to yollow it, and like,
you know, coordinating with your team and developing that mind
meld with your raid. Like that's sick. That's really fun statement.
M Plus that's the fun part of Wow and add ons.
The fact that add ons do that for you is
a downside. But I think it is hard to look
at Wow's history over the past ten years, the kinds

(01:13:03):
of decisions that they have made where it's like, Okay,
we're going to take a swing at making the game
better because we've identified this problem. Like that list includes
the AOI cap, it includes private auras, it includes there
are other things that I had in my mind that
have now escaped it. But those are I think two
pretty big examples where you look at it and you're like, man, Okay,

(01:13:24):
they wrote the AoE cap manifesto. It makes a lot
of sense they you know, and then it's just just
not good. Right. Oh the change they made to stops
where it's like you have to actually kick them off
instead of stopping it, and it's like, yeah, we want
this to function like it does Everyherelse.

Speaker 3 (01:13:37):
I was such a fan of that. I like, I
saw that and I was like, bro, this makes so
much sense, and it just didn't pan out.

Speaker 4 (01:13:43):
Yeah, it just didn't work.

Speaker 1 (01:13:45):
It's awful, and it overlooked like it makes AoE stop
way more important but rather than way less, which was
a stated goal. And it super makes sigil of silence
and solar beam like night and day versus not coordinating
around those. So yeah, like it's hard not to be
worried that the same thing is going to happen here
where it's like, yeah, this is a noble goal, but

(01:14:06):
there's a lot of potential for the game to get
worse in pursuit of it here, and I think people
will have some trepidation because despite all of the downsides
of add ons, I really love the experience of playing
World of Warcraft right now. And I could imagine a
world where they do this wrong and that stops being
through and that's very scary.

Speaker 2 (01:14:23):
I will say I did prefer how it was before
to now, but going back would be very hard. And like,
wait is an example, So we're doing a friend raid.
I have a friend who has never done these fights before,
like knows nothing about Mifak and so he's asking like,
all right, like what I need to know. So the

(01:14:44):
first thing I is I told him to download the
three liquid Virus week wre packs and so he got
them all.

Speaker 4 (01:14:50):
And liquid malware yep, yeah yeah.

Speaker 2 (01:14:53):
So you know his computer started like langling crazy, loading
all these scripts and shit.

Speaker 4 (01:14:58):
Yeah, and so.

Speaker 2 (01:15:00):
He was asking like, how do I do uh sparking
monk right, like that's a sparking monger. And I'm like, well,
there's blue and red. Just don't touch blue and red
and blue goes left, red goes right, and then just
follow the week ra But week or will tell you
like what bomba soug weekor will tell you like to
swap size or not. That's an entire fight. Like that's
that's literally been entire fight. There's nothing else complicated about

(01:15:22):
the fight. Like obviously there's like more nuances do it,
like positioning and all. But he plays a melee and
I'm like, just follow a week or on your due
do fine, because like you know, if this guy's also
a Race to War first raider, he's a great player.
He's like you knows how to play, he just doesn't
know the fights. And yeah, like but that's what the
fights have boiled down to also, like I was thinking
about PvP too, like from my PvP lens I remember

(01:15:45):
back well, like I don't know what's like now, but
it's been a while since I VVP. Back then would
be like, all right, so how long on your HOJJ?
Like ten seconds? All right, well we can go in
ten seconds. Wait, but my wings is also up in
twenty seconds, Like we can get this killed in this
next twenty seconds. That's like something that you could just commune.
Can't talk about, but I assume nowadays you just like
look at omni seed or something and just like figure
it out by based on the omniy CD. I don't

(01:16:06):
even know what it's like nowadays, but I miss that's
more natural way of playing the game, especially in M
plus because a lot of these weak wars were not
in M plus until these days. Because I've heard a
lot of healers complaining, particularly about like oh, if you
remove amNY CD, how am I supposed to know how
to like who to heal and all that, And it's like, bro,
we weren't tracking people's defensives until I want to say,

(01:16:29):
around Dragonfly, which is pretty fucking recent. Yeah, that can
be a fan general legion. Yeah, randomly, Yeah, I'd be like, hey,
pressure detensive. If you don't, then it is what it is.
We didn't need all these trackers back then. It was
there was just like a more natural way of playing
the game.

Speaker 3 (01:16:48):
That are like looking at a volatile set of party
health bars, so five health bars that are going up
and down, and they actively make the decision to like
extra heel the one person who doesn't have a defense.
They look at they're a little fucking suite of cool
downs and they see one person doesn't have a defensive,
so they get extra healing. Bro, you're talking, You're you're talking.

(01:17:08):
Maybe maybe the like ninety nine. There are so few
people that actually do that versus just have that on
their UI that that that is like extreme level. And
if that's the case too, it would be good to
get rid of it because it's like what are we
even fucking doing here?

Speaker 4 (01:17:23):
You know, yeah, what are we doing?

Speaker 1 (01:17:25):
But also those players are like good enough that they
will like you will learn that like, oh my rogue
is probably cloaking here right.

Speaker 3 (01:17:31):
Like I don't know, Like that's the yeah, yeah, you.

Speaker 1 (01:17:34):
Will still be the best player by far at your role.
Don't worry I.

Speaker 3 (01:17:36):
Feel like it's like the Bell curve thing. Like I think,
like really like like low tier players are like, bro,
I just heal health bars, and then like that little
mid tier bell curve is like bro, I need to
see everyone's fucking cool down, and then like the high
one is like bro, I just heal health bars.

Speaker 4 (01:17:50):
Man.

Speaker 3 (01:17:50):
Like that. I think it's more of that. When I
when I talked about this whole thing and I was
reading Ian's thing, I came to and I did not
tell him this when we were there, I told him
that he should hire or consult with like a lot
of the smart week or people so they can try
to break the stuff that they're coming out with, because
I know they were able to do that with Private
or so just like pre break it before you like

(01:18:12):
release it. I have a similar but kind of different tona. Okay,
so like they come out with a cool now manager,
they're coming out with like in game dBm. I'm coming
out with in game details. They're coming out with in
game all this shit, right, I think for them to
be able to do this in the quickest, most efficient,

(01:18:34):
and probably the cheapest manner, they need to hire these people.
I think.

Speaker 2 (01:18:39):
I swear I remember saying that in one of the
podcast episodes before where we talked about add ons, and
you guys told me I was an idiot.

Speaker 3 (01:18:45):
You're so stupid, You're so yeah, yeah, one second, dorky.
I think you just need to hear what I'm saying first.

Speaker 4 (01:18:52):
Yeah, this.

Speaker 3 (01:18:57):
Look like I don't okay, So I just want to
pre apologize for any like people who work in the
industry or your game developer, and you're gonna hear what
I'm saying right now, and you're just like, dude, there's
this thing you don't fucking get. You're so fucking stupid,
and I am stupid. You're right, there's probably something This
is very basic and I'm missing something on how this works.

(01:19:17):
But like, there is no way these things are going
to release with higher quality than These people who make
these add ons are like really fucking smart, and they
made it. They love the game, so they're likely to
work with you. They made these add ons because they
felt like something was missing for the game, so they
fucking made it right.

Speaker 1 (01:19:35):
And then.

Speaker 3 (01:19:38):
Basically their life's work for a lot of them because
they do get paid via like Patreon. Some of the
bigger ones is making this thing really good over fifteen years.
They even mentioned in the article. You know, I wish
I could pull up an exact quote, but they say
something like, it's not realistic for us to make something
on par or better for you to instantly switch the

(01:20:01):
first time we release something versus something that's been out
for fifteen years. And I remember I read that in
my chat, was like, that's a bad answer. I'm like,
what do you mean it's a bad answer. That's fucking true.
It's so disrespectful to think that like Blizzard could just
like yolo a boss mod or like any of these
add ons. Were these really smart groups of people, which
is the same amount of people that'll be working on
it at Blizzard, by the way, not ten or twenty

(01:20:22):
A couple people, right for like six months or less
and make something better, no fucking shot, dude, So hire
these people. You don't have to give them a job
at Blizzard. Hire them as consultants, pay them for their time,
and you have to make like a better product, and

(01:20:42):
it's going to save you so much time in getting
it out there. The only thing I'm thinking is like, Okay, drat,
now's you're a Blizzard right now? Okay, you're a Blizzard guy.
You gotta suit on. They all wear suits every day,
so you're a Blizzard man. I approach you with this thing.
Tell me why that's stupid and can never work? Is
it because you'd have to pay them for their IP?

(01:21:03):
Like right now, you can kind of just be like,
we want to make dBm, so you can just copy
it and you don't have to like pay them for
creating it. But if you're consulting them in some way,
you'd have to pay them for the work they've done
in the credit for creating something for your game.

Speaker 1 (01:21:14):
Maybe it's that, Yeah, maybe maybe the idea is like, hey,
these UI customization options are cool, but like if we
shift something that's for everybody to use, right, like, it's
got to be kind of different than the ones right
now where people's and pick whatever out ons they want. Yeah,
I don't know. I mean, I agree with you. I'm
I'm trying to come up with a good reason not
to do it that way. But I also think that

(01:21:35):
that unless there's a reason that it doesn't work.

Speaker 2 (01:21:38):
You feel like there are a lot of anoms that
don't feel like, Wow, you don't like because I like
seeing like detailed skins that look more like you know,
like it's from Wow.

Speaker 1 (01:21:47):
And but like the skinning of it is is the
skinning is totally different. Got to be easy.

Speaker 3 (01:21:53):
Exactly, Like you could make something like the consulting they
would do for them is not how it looks. It
would be like function like for you'd have you'd have uh,
two or three people who are creating the in game
dBm or uh you know one of these things something
that uh like better buff and de buff management, you know,

(01:22:14):
like whether you can highlight certain buffs, stuff like that.
And then they work with these people and they work
on it for two weeks and they're they're like, dude,
you know, it'd be great if I could ask questions.
These people have been doing it for fifteen years, and
they like set them on the right path or they
you know, it's just what consulting does. It's it's like
gonna you're you're already working on this on your own,
probably using what they did as kind of an inspiration.
And then maybe they ran into a problem that you're

(01:22:34):
running into now fucking ten years ago, and you've already
gone through it and consolved it. You're just gonna save time, right, uh,
And and like like you said, like why would they
don't want to bake these exact things into the game,
Like what do you mean? Like they they kind of
acknowledge that these things exist in the game and they're
really really good, right, but they don't want people to
have to go download that on. So putting these things

(01:22:55):
in the game is exactly what they're trying to do,
except with the cool down Manager as an example, they're
just doing it real bad.

Speaker 1 (01:23:00):
Like, so I think that's got to me is like, Man,
I wish that the policy for this was like, Okay,
we're gonna release the cool line Manager and until we
have like sixty percent of the player base using it
instead of weak eras, we're not gonna like take away
the ability to use weakers instead, right like that, I
feel like that should be the goal. Like, if we're

(01:23:20):
gonna do for me, buff and debuff tracking is the
big one as well, huge.

Speaker 3 (01:23:24):
Yeah.

Speaker 1 (01:23:24):
If buff and de buff tracking is handled badly, it's
so annoyed. Like the way that it works right now.
If I'm actually trying to identify important buffs my character
by looking at the top ride of my screen, there's
forty buffs up there, all shifting around all over the.

Speaker 3 (01:23:37):
Place default buzets impossible, like unlayable, the singular worst part
of the default u I in my opinion.

Speaker 1 (01:23:43):
Yeah, so it's like, yeah, they should just they should
come out with like a a nice lightweight, modular, like
modifiable way to set up, like whitelist and blacklist for
de buffs and buffs. You want to see with some
good defaults for your spec and like people should switch
to using that instead of using the add ons and
stuff that are currently available because it's better, and then

(01:24:06):
take away the add ons right and same with like
all of the other things in RAID, right, Like it
should be the goal should be, like, Okay, we are
going to make a version that is better. In some
cases we have functionality we want to take away, but
in other cases we don't have functionality we want to
take away. We just there's other functionality we need to
have on our end instead of on the add ons
end in the future. But like that's not happening yet.
So we're going to do all these things. We're going

(01:24:27):
to get to a high level of people using these
because it's better. Like I would use the cool time
Manager if it was even close to as good as
week words right now, I would love to. I've I've
had ideas for like how I wanted my middle of
my UID to look, and it's just like, eh, well,
it's easier to download a week our kit and like
I'd have to update this every patch. But like if
I could just do it with cool time Manager and
I could just have my row of like oh, offensive CDs,

(01:24:47):
defensive CDs movement abilities like the way that I'm envision
it in my mind, And it was easy to do
that with cool on Manager and it was good. I
would be doing that day one, that that was that good.
But I looked at using cool on Manager and it's awful.
Like if I want to move one of my abilities
three abilities to the left, like that is the amount
of work that is entailed in doing that right now
is crazy. So yeah, I'm worried that it would be

(01:25:11):
it's a lot easier for Blizzard to break the existing
stuff then it is going to be for them to
make good replacements for it. And I hope that they
don't do the former before they can do the latter.

Speaker 3 (01:25:21):
Yeah, and you don't even have to like why would
removing this stuff? The main reason would be let's get
people to just like get on the new thing, like
we need more people to try this. People gonna try
it anyway. Every time you log on Alpha for the
first time, when you log on Beta people who are
streaming this, you have to use default UI for a while, right,

(01:25:42):
new PTR thing, new patches, when things aren't updated. People
are going to basically just because of how the game works,
are going to have to put their hands on this
in some way anyway. And if it's actually good, if
the cool down manager whatever is basically like a week
or UI and it's like in the game, it's not
going to cause any like frame lag or anything, people
are going to use that for sure.

Speaker 1 (01:26:04):
It just sucks, right at some point they break the
functionality that lets you do you know, assignment weekorras and
fights and stuff, right, and at that point they're going
to have to push us onto their versions of the
things that use the same stuff under the hood that
they don't want to actually get rid of, ye and
like that. Whenever they flip the switch on that, I
just I really hope that the rest of the stuff
is ready, because it's very easy to imagine them doing

(01:26:27):
that a year or two before they should. And that, dude,
I think.

Speaker 3 (01:26:31):
Even when they get all this right, let's just say
whenever they flip that switch, everything is like pretty good
or really good that they're trying to do. I still
think the growing pains that could exist in any given
season of oh well, because we don't have trackers anymore,
we don't need to design five and kicks in a

(01:26:53):
row and stops and mythic plus and and really difficult
raid mechanics. I think trying to figure out like how
how far back you have to go in your design
of like when you started designing for this ship. I
just think it could be any stuff could be crazy
fucking easy. It could be like you're doing nothing. It
could be way too hard to do without a week aura, right,

(01:27:15):
and it's they're no.

Speaker 1 (01:27:16):
Week or the fire intermission problem right where they just
design as something that's a private aura and it's like this,
what did he want us to do here?

Speaker 3 (01:27:23):
Man? Yeah, that that season is gonna be a fucking movie.

Speaker 1 (01:27:27):
That is going to be I think it was one season, honestly, Yeah,
Like how long Private Order has lasted for I think
it's yeah, it's like, okay, if you offered me, we
can move to this exciting new world where the game
is better and it's gonna cost you one season of
things being bad. I would take that deal in a heartbeat.
I think the worry is that it's going to be
like an expansion pack an expansion and.

Speaker 2 (01:27:50):
I don't even this being solved at all, because like
there are gonna be so many workarounds too, like you said,
with the whole Macrol situation, and just like having a
week row, yeah, or.

Speaker 1 (01:28:01):
Well they have to they have to like actually break.

Speaker 3 (01:28:03):
So there's a couple of things when they announced what
they were actually putting in that are the things they
want to have happened, and almost all of the rest
of them are things they have realized that are going
to have to be gone due to collateral damage to
make sure that those other things cannot happen. So I
actually am pretty sure that there will not be a
lot of workarounds for any of the in fight stuff

(01:28:23):
that isn't like basically breaking the TuS. Uh. That being said,
I'm a little scared of that though, like like here
here's here's.

Speaker 2 (01:28:33):
I already know what you're saying, an echo. They're gonna
come up with some type of workaround for this. It's
gonna be, yeah, the.

Speaker 3 (01:28:41):
Same as well, by the way, not more likely one
than the other both. Yeah, that was the issue I
had with that was that you didn't method so that.

Speaker 1 (01:28:50):
Those guys are now in expected first place, by the way,
that's the I don't know if you guys have seen
the ross. I'm sorry, we should finished this one. We'll
finish that and.

Speaker 3 (01:28:59):
Then get to that. But I I like, here's something
you one thing that's been really really good has been
Have you guys downloaded or have used the like liquid
reminders thing or method reminders, like where you can just
at any point in the fight on this specific thing,
you can make a little note for yourself and it
has some text speech that is so good, Like that

(01:29:20):
is so helpful that that reduces your poll count on
a boss as a raid if everyone's utilizing that significantly
very strong. Okay, so let's say you can't do that anymore.
It doesn't know when combat events are happening. Someone I
think was a drat nose where you were like you
could literally play a YouTube video that that like.

Speaker 1 (01:29:41):
So basically I have said that, but I'm not sure
if I was.

Speaker 3 (01:29:43):
If I heard it from here's how you could do that.
You could our our analysts or smart people can make
a like web app that's outside of Wow that has
the timeline of a boss and the things that happen
just as you experience right now with m RT or
with a liquid reminder tool, and you can and it'll

(01:30:04):
and when you hit like save, it'll just export you
an unlisted YouTube video that you press at ten seconds
on the pull timer that will just say all your
things while while you're doing the fight, right, and that
that's not against the terms of service, right, That's that's
something you can do.

Speaker 1 (01:30:22):
And it would be almost impossible to make it against
the terms.

Speaker 4 (01:30:25):
Well why is it not?

Speaker 3 (01:30:26):
All you're doing, dorky, All you're doing is playing a
YouTube video and marking down when at certain minutes or
seconds in the fight, certain mechanics happen. That is not
against the rules in any It could never be.

Speaker 2 (01:30:38):
It would be very role according to the Blizzard damans,
Like I've seen some show, Yeah, what's the rule?

Speaker 4 (01:30:44):
Well, you know, like if you.

Speaker 3 (01:30:45):
Mind the race World First is not a Blizzard sanction event,
so so what so what what are they gonna do?
They can say, don't play YouTube videos.

Speaker 1 (01:30:51):
While you're rating.

Speaker 3 (01:30:53):
Are they gonna say, hey.

Speaker 2 (01:30:54):
You never know you know, sometimes I might use a
shocking disclosure and you just get fucking disqualifying movies.

Speaker 1 (01:30:58):
Yeah, but even then this is like, let like I
don't know, like this, even if they could stop the
race world first guilds doing it, there's no way they
could stop an average field. Like here's the here's the
level of invasiveness that they would need to have in
their anti cheat to stop having a chrome tap with
a YouTube video opens.

Speaker 3 (01:31:13):
There's no way. But so this is this is why
I'm a little averse to this, Like when this, when
this happens years from now, maybe that's my time to
hang up my boots because like I think if it
was just like, hey, everyone's gonna do the raid and Natty,
I'm cool with that, That's what I want. We used
to raid like that actually, like very little weak wars

(01:31:34):
because we were stupid, right and that was very very
fun and that would be ideal. That's what they're going for.
But I know that like Echo will do literally anything
to make sure they have, which is what you should
do as a competitior. Uh, no particular reason that they've
never shown. They've never shown any reason to do things

(01:31:56):
a little not by the book but yeah, they like
I know they're gonna do everything, and in regardless of
whether they actually do or not, it's just gonna be
in the back of my mind the whole time, like, Hey,
we're ready, We're so prepared for this raid and we're
just so ready, Natty, and then like we just get
fucking destroyed because they have a reminder ad on that

(01:32:16):
they have working outside the game and we don't. And
by the way, you would get destroyed if any guild
was using like those reminders the other guild wasn't. You're
getting smoked, right.

Speaker 4 (01:32:25):
It's so good.

Speaker 3 (01:32:27):
So so that's what I'm saying that times every other add
on it's just like the stress of just like what
is what is someone going to be willing to do?
And are they ever gonna get caught for it? And
if they do, is it even technically against the tos?
Like the example with the reminder YouTube, thing like that
just sounds like an era of rating to where, Bro,
they would be the best era of rating ever if

(01:32:48):
everyone did it, Natty. But that's just I just don't
believe that's gonna happen. And even if it doesn't happen,
I'm gonna be so scared and stressed all the time
that it will because like imagine you put in all
this effort for a race and use because someone does
some outside the game shit you know that would that
would fucking that would that would? I would instantly quit.
I would never play this game again, right, or or

(01:33:10):
or talk at this game again, you know.

Speaker 2 (01:33:13):
Yeah, I mean it's a fucking wild player problem. Like
players have just gone to this point where this is
the type of thing that's like the norm. Well I'm
even not the norm, but like it's it's just it's
such an integral part of World war Craft. That's why
I've always said, like, you know, as much as I
don't like add ons being in the game, it's Pandora's box.

Speaker 4 (01:33:34):
You can't close the box.

Speaker 1 (01:33:35):
Yeah. It's like like people talk about liking Classic better,
but like or like, you know, Vanilla better, right, But
like when we play through Vanilla the second time. In Classic,
it's not like people didn't use weakars, like everybody, a
lot more weakers and stuff were used for mechanics than
never were back in the day, right, Like we can't
just go back by trying not to use stuff that's

(01:33:56):
available to us now.

Speaker 3 (01:33:58):
Or yeah, like well they can if they if they
remove the ability to do all that, it's just gonna
be really really hard to do that.

Speaker 1 (01:34:03):
Exactly, Like they have to actually take away the functionality
in a in a good way, which is gonna be
really hard.

Speaker 3 (01:34:09):
I mean, Blizzard could just like say to our guilds,
I don't know how this will work, but just be like, hey,
I know none of this shit's technically against the TuS,
but just like if you, if you ever want to
work with us ever again, like just fucking play the
game natty man, Like, hey, we'll do a fucking prize
pool for the first time ever. We're gonna do a
two hundred thousand dollars prize pool for the winner of

(01:34:30):
the race world first. And if you if you use
fucking anything, you're never getting it this raid or ever again.
You're just ineligible. Bro, we'd be we'd be the most
natty people on planet Earth. We like you know what
I'm saying, Like they have they that might.

Speaker 1 (01:34:45):
Be the best way because like when we talk about
a YouTube video, if the way you do that is
with like a web app that generated it, and if
nobody from the guilds, that would actually bother spending the
time to do that, are doing it, then other people
would never know.

Speaker 3 (01:34:59):
We need money. So yeah, like throwing away two hundred
thousand dollars just to have a slightly better chance at winning,
just just and knowing that like Blizzard will hate you forever. Yeah,
it's just simply not worth the risk of getting caught,
so you just wouldn't do it.

Speaker 1 (01:35:13):
Yeah, that seems actually really good because there's another workaround,
you know, the cool down hiding your cool downs thing.
Something that struck me as being something that would be
very something that would happen is that the guilds that
were in person would definitely just use the feeds of
everybody's screen to give the raid leaders the cool downs
on their screen.

Speaker 3 (01:35:33):
Yeah, that's annoying. I don't want that because I actually
liked that change I as a raid leader, Like the
most effective I ever felt was on stoneleag in Generals,
one of the worst bosses ever, because you had to, like,
at any given point, your big wigs would have like
five mechanics lined up and they've just been stacking up
and there's a priority for them that is constantly changing
because different things are coming off cool down and you

(01:35:55):
had to memorize that, which was very difficult. There was
a lot of variables and it was never the same.
Every pole was always different, and and I memorized that,
and I felt like I gave ourselves a leg up
and progression because like we always knew what was coming.
It was never this and this and this could happen.
It was this is about to happen, even.

Speaker 1 (01:36:12):
Like knowing that spiritlink totem is available if that's not
possible normally, but like you have a rest of shaman
in your facility and you have their computers feed going
to your yead. I know how that works.

Speaker 3 (01:36:24):
I'm just saying I hope that never happens because I
really look forward to just having to Natty Brain remember everything.
I would love to do that, and that would that
would be a way you can outplay another guild, right,
so I would I hope. I hope that can be
Natty as well.

Speaker 1 (01:36:38):
I think you're right though, the best way is for
Blizzard to just like throw some money at it and
like talk to the Big two or Big three guilds.

Speaker 3 (01:36:47):
Because the reality is people do what we do, like
like they use our week ore packs. They extremely influential
in the raid in the raid community, at least in
the mythic cutting edgeraide community, one hundred percent. If we
don't do any of that ship, people are probably not
doing that ship. And if we do that ship, everyone
will be doing that ship, right, So yeah, they should

(01:37:10):
do that in somebody. They should also pay us. Paying
us will be sweet, big price.

Speaker 4 (01:37:13):
We will love that.

Speaker 3 (01:37:14):
But but the uh, the method and echo thing, so
other race world.

Speaker 2 (01:37:18):
First stuff, well, actually before that, real quick look at
this thing and put in discord ies obviously. The other
day it's some guy who's a bear tank timing seventeen
keys with an off metacomp and the guy has complete
full natty ui, like no details. It's like he's straight
down the game. Yeah, look at his ship, look at

(01:37:39):
his raid frames. By the way, he's using the base
base name plates, like he's not even using the raid
we call it like raid style forty fucking beast.

Speaker 4 (01:37:50):
Yeah, what a fucking beast.

Speaker 3 (01:37:52):
What a beast. But also like this guy would be
like thirty percent better if he just like downloaded everything.
All good, But I.

Speaker 2 (01:37:59):
Mean, at the same time, like I don't know how
true that is all the time, because one thing, well
not just that, but one thing that World war Craft
players suffer from is severe tunnel visioning. Like if we
were to take a eye tracker, Like if we were
to use an eye tracker of a WOW player compared
to any other gamer, I can guarantee you that a

(01:38:21):
WOW player is like staring at anything other than the
character or like what's on the screen for I want
to say, like seventy percent of the time, Like they're
probably staring at their UI package or like very.

Speaker 3 (01:38:33):
Why do you think are there? By the way, that's
that's not because their UI packages there? Their UI packages
there because that's where wold players look.

Speaker 2 (01:38:44):
Yeah, exactly, And so like removing some of those elements
could make for a much much more interesting gameplay where
like you're actually playing the games that I'm just playing
looking at your UI and looking at your PROCs and
looking at your cool downs and staring at your rate frames.
I feel like this is actually true of healers. Healers
are so insanely tunnel vision because know what I mean, Like, yes,

(01:39:06):
never know of those heelers that are.

Speaker 3 (01:39:07):
Like why do you think that is like the if
you were to gas because I have a theory, well.

Speaker 2 (01:39:11):
Because that's like the optimal way to play the game.

Speaker 3 (01:39:14):
I just think it's really fucking hard, like the frames,
because what they're doing is fucking insanely hard. And if
they take their eyes, Like think about it, if if
looking at their raid frames and doing what they needed
to do with that was easy, they just simply wouldn't
have their eyes planning on it.

Speaker 2 (01:39:29):
Yeah, And it's because of the game is designed around
that way, right, Like it's because of how powerful all
these tools are, where like you kind of rely on
all these UI elements in order to play your class
and it probably shouldn't be that way.

Speaker 4 (01:39:46):
Yeah.

Speaker 2 (01:39:46):
Well, I mean you know some people who prefer that, right,
Like some people enjoy the whole like tracking your entire
UI and figuring out what to hit at all times.

Speaker 4 (01:39:56):
But it is, like it it's gone kind of of extreme.

Speaker 1 (01:40:01):
I don't enjoy the difficulty in other momos. That's like
that comes from like kind of knowing in my head
how long twelve seconds is for my twelve second CD
so I can like press it on time like I
like that, and wow, I can just have that information
near the middle of my screen like out of something
that is jarring to me when I go play like
Path of exile for instances that all my cool downs

(01:40:22):
are down to the bottom left and like I don't Well.

Speaker 2 (01:40:24):
It's more about like that level of mind maxing is
required in Wow, whereas it's not required in other games.

Speaker 1 (01:40:29):
Well clear it's not required. This guy's three point five K.

Speaker 2 (01:40:33):
Sure, Okay, maybe it requires a bit you know what
I mean, like purpose, Yeah, like if you're doing myfig rating,
you're going to be doing so much less dps if
you're not actively like yeah, tracking the game all your
hard and stuff.

Speaker 3 (01:40:45):
Pv wow is actually so hard. I think that's a
hidden thing like a lot of like other people, it's
like this is a very hidden hard game. Like people
talk about, uh, you know, like what what games are
like crazy APM or whatever like bro like like pv
wow has like infinite skill cap.

Speaker 2 (01:41:01):
Dude talking about pv But I feel like PvP is
even crazier. Like PvP, there's so much happening. I feel
like it's so overwhelming and it's impossible to get into you.

Speaker 1 (01:41:10):
It's just like the way the difficulty exists in this
game is so it's in like such a combination of
knowledge and like reactions and that's not like it's not
like other games. I mean, those are difficult parts of
other games, but wow, deceives you with how little the
APM check is, right, Yeah, like it's not how simple
the lower difficulties are and stuff.

Speaker 3 (01:41:31):
But like think about how many players you've ever seen
that are like perfect, Like obviously no one, but like
even the players that get as close as they can
to it, how many of them could like do that
and also shot call right, you know, like it's it's
in like that's impossible, Like it's it's too it's like
no one can do that. So it's a yeah, very

(01:41:53):
very hard okay, method an Echo thing. What was your
all's reaction if people who.

Speaker 1 (01:41:58):
Don't know what that'd bean?

Speaker 3 (01:42:00):
So five current or former Echo players joined Method on
one day like two weeks ago, with some big names
like now and Zalea, who had some he he was
removed from Echo due to some allegations and then now
I think left Echo before that, but like kind of

(01:42:22):
had a public spat with Scripe about the Zilia thing,
like sticking up for his friend, like hey, fuck you
for kicking him. And then also Clicks, KNX and and Cush,
who were all three of those were like very regular
Echo raiders. They they played a lot thoughts.

Speaker 1 (01:42:47):
Yeah, I mean it's it's you and Echo that'll be
fighting for world second now Method hashtag up the orange hashtag,
keep it yellow hashtag.

Speaker 3 (01:42:56):
I don't know that was that was the overwhelming like
community reaction though they were like Method is fucking here,
and that just there was another big moment for me
where I realized how how like uh detached the race
world first fandom is from like actually knowing what the
fuck is going on, because like just just for an example,
like Echo is very very far ahead of Method, and

(01:43:21):
I think a lot of time like currently or before
that move, and I think a lot of people can
see the number two and three is hard. Once someone
wins and you're looking at the two people finishing, you
can be like, well, they weren't really that far. But
like bro Method, like like Method last Raid had no
chance of competing with Echo. They they took a step
back even from where they were in like the answer

(01:43:41):
rec Raid, they.

Speaker 1 (01:43:43):
Can pretty close an answer act to Second, And I
think that that's a really deceptive part of it is
that Second like Method are more likely to be able
to take second from Echo in a bad tier for
Echo or from you guys in a bad tier for
you than they are to take first from whichever guilt
is getting totally because there are a set of players,
like people like Roger Mirez is the main one that

(01:44:06):
jumps to mind. Scripe like these are the risin right,
these kind of there are players that create the ability
to get first of like charting an unknown path on
a boss that has not yet been progressed. And then
there's the process of doing something that other guilds have
already done and doing it.

Speaker 3 (01:44:25):
Being a good video guild something that collars fat shark yes,
are like fucking insane at.

Speaker 1 (01:44:29):
And and you know, the ceiling for how well you
can do as a video guild is second place, right,
Like you need people that have those first place guild skills,
and there are there's a lot of mechanical skill among
the players picked up by method, and there may be
some of that you know, getting first skilled that exists
among them. I haven't like I've only spectated, right and
to some extent, you'll never know these things unless you've

(01:44:51):
actually played with these players. But I feel like of
the people who haven't played with the players, I'm probably
one of the best qualified to kind of identify where
the skill lies. And I don't think that. I think
that it is the people like Mira's Roger Ris and
Scripe that are that.

Speaker 3 (01:45:04):
Like, yeah, if they got mirrors and Roger, that would
be fucking serious shit like that would be that would
immediately be like they could maybe win the race, right,
Like that's that's the thing. But but if you don't
have those people, you how are you gonna gain those skills? Right?
Like having more people who've won on your team matters

(01:45:24):
because there's an individual problem solving element often overlooked.

Speaker 1 (01:45:28):
And I think now is sick of that on the
tanking role, Like if you're if you're looking for somebody
who's going to figure out how to like do a
tank thing or like innovate as a tank you honestly
something like the Silvanis intermission tank maneuver that he came
up with that then got fixed. But like those sorts
of things, he's he's gonna he's gonna be able to
leave the charge there. So and method have already been
on a on the forefront of good tank decisions as

(01:45:50):
well in recent races, like they caught on to what
you should be doing with tanks on Bridgewester before everybody
else did, So yeah, no one, they definitely have Like, yeah,
there is a I'm not saying that guild has zero
percent chance to get a world first, but I don't
think that they've jumped from like two percent to fifty
percent or something. I think they probably have jumped from
two percent to like three or four percent off.

Speaker 3 (01:46:13):
Of Yeah, that sounds that sounds that accurate. But yeah,
I do really want to hammer home like like a
lot of people are like, how can they ever win
if they don't have like a world first raid leader guy,
And it's like the guiding your your guild through that
uncharted territory is is is the most important thing. But
like on the individual player level, having people that have

(01:46:35):
gotten to a part of a the end of an
end boss that no one has gotten to yet and
have figured out the best way to be a mage,
a healer, a tank during those that experience is fucking
so important. And Method has had very little of that
experience and they've gotten a lot more of it now
in like the last two tiers, like that will definitely
benefit them. But as far as like if you're a

(01:46:56):
betting man, uh and you're you're asking if you're an
ask me right, and I want to be both of
those guilds. I don't really care who comes in second.
I'm just telling you kind of how it is between them.
I kind of equally like or dislike both of them.
Echo is like vastly it would it would blow my
mind and it would be cool this happened if Method

(01:47:18):
beat Echo, blow my fucking mind, even after all these
after all these changes. Now, now that can, like over time,
can be the case, but like that is that would
be extremely surprising.

Speaker 2 (01:47:30):
This is kind of like the Superstar thing. We're like
the super team and thing we're talking about in M plus, Like, yeah,
you can get a bunch of insanely good players, but
it doesn't really work until you have the core components
like Maras or Roger and just having the team synergy.
Because I mean these are like how many players joining
like six or some shit six players playing with an

(01:47:52):
entire new group of Raiders. It's a it's a it's
basically a merger to some extent, it's a lot of people. Yeah,
I will say it is kind of weird. What how
so I mean, it's just like it seems like such
a bad move from uh Skoll's end. M Hm, why,

(01:48:19):
I mean, I guess he's been getting the he's been
getting favorable opinions right from.

Speaker 1 (01:48:28):
From Twitter was overwhelmingly positive.

Speaker 4 (01:48:29):
But yeah, it's definitely been overwhelming.

Speaker 1 (01:48:31):
It's not a barometer that one should ever look at
or anything anymore.

Speaker 3 (01:48:35):
There's there's a lot of people that yeah, there's It's
just like it feels like they.

Speaker 2 (01:48:41):
Only picked him up because very good players like you know,
like they don't give a shit about like like skill
kind of gave the whole like ah, you know like
uh Zill, Yeah, you know, like he's reformed whatever, blah
blah blah. They're giving him therapy or whatever. I don't
remember exactly what he said, but it just came off

(01:49:01):
as so insincere. That'sre inincere.

Speaker 3 (01:49:05):
Well that's okay. So here's the way I look at
that decision. So, like, first of all, Echo getting rid
of Zalia. I know people have shit on Echo for this.
If you're like a pro Zalia person, Echo had absolutely
no choice in that. Like, if if they have one
allegation they say they're publicly investigating and two more come in,
you as an organization, regardless of that person. You're You're cooked, right,
like that's you. You are in fact, most like third

(01:49:27):
party investigators. Like when something like that happens, it's just
like they're god right until you look at that further
and that they had no they had no They really
did not have a choice organizationally, like basically anyone in
that position had to do that. As far as Method
picking them up, I think SCO and them probably know
that that was really risky. Not as far as fans go,

(01:49:50):
because like there's a lot of like Zalia fans, So
like you're gonna you're gonna gain a lot of those people,
some of them not the greatest look on Twitter dot
com for sure, but but you know, you'll gain those
fans Blizzard. If I'm if I'm Method, what I'm worried
about is my relationship with Blizzard because Blizzard is already
probably unsurprisingly do a lot of you not super like

(01:50:13):
Dean to work with Method because of the like Method
Josh stuff that was like a fucking huge deal.

Speaker 1 (01:50:20):
Uh, and they are really.

Speaker 3 (01:50:22):
Scared of that. They like are still guild and everything.
They reformed and stuff, but that didn't go away, and
then that guild of all people chooses to pick up
a player with allegations that is specifically not allowed to
participate in official Blizzard events, right, Like I believe he's

(01:50:44):
from sports.

Speaker 1 (01:50:46):
Yeah, so I think he took the post of that.

Speaker 3 (01:50:48):
Now, the race world first is not a like Blizzard
sanction esport, but having a good relationship with Blizzard matters,
and like really matters, and that is Blizzard. I have
not spoken to him about it.

Speaker 1 (01:51:01):
I never will.

Speaker 3 (01:51:03):
That can't be good on that side. So that's one
thing that's a real shooting. But I think what Sko's
doing is swinging for the fences. Zilia, I think a
lot of people know is a really really good dealer. Right,
So if you feel like you're on a short time frame,
if you look at pieces right, you can do the
like third Guild thing where you're about as far behind
as Method is now for like three years. It's unsustainable,

(01:51:26):
not only financially but mentally. You can't just keep telling
yourself you can win and then not. People give up.
It's not humans. It's impossible to just do that forever.
Method has been doing it for a while now years
and they really haven't made they haven't made that jump.
So if your Sko. You know that picking him up

(01:51:46):
is risky, but if picking him up means you also
get some other Echo players, you don't necessarily need to
win the race to world first to have that business
case be viable. You need to be the best European guild.
You basically are shooting for Echo to die. So you
take Echoes players away, maybe somehow you end up coming
in second or beating them, or for whatever reason, Echo
dies and somehow you had anything to do with that

(01:52:07):
because you picked up some of their players, or you
beat them by taking a big swing on a player
like Zaillia, and then also getting now Right as a
like secondary thing, as like a package, not like a
package deal. But like I'm just going to bet that
like if they don't pick up Zilia, they also don't
get now Like I'm like almost positive that's true.

Speaker 4 (01:52:27):
That's pretty true.

Speaker 3 (01:52:28):
So so you're getting like two for the price of one.
So like all of that risk in play, I think
they have to win or beat Echo or hope Echo
dies in like two raids, because I mean maybe they
have some like sponsor stuff I don't know about as possible.
That's always there's like rumors always circulating around stuff like that.
As far as I know right now, that is not
the case where they have some like crazy oil baron

(01:52:51):
giving them money. But you've made your relationship with Blizzard
a lot worse and you are probably financially to get
a lot of these players, imagine. And as far as
I know, the people that came from Echo are making
more Method. They were an Echo, and I don't know
if Method is currently making more than Echo. I actually
doubt it. I know they made more money from the

(01:53:12):
they both had Saudi sponsors two raids ago, and Method
made a lot more than Echo, I think more than double.
So maybe they're still using some of that money, but
that I don't know how much of that new is
coming in right So I think they're making a short
term swing. And if your Method, I could see that
making sense because you don't have a long time to
see this play out. That just being the third guild thing.

(01:53:35):
You can't do that forever. You have to break out
of that to make the business case make sense and
to have everyone not quit and give up. So I
think it all tracks. Is that that makes sense Doorkie
looking along the side of the risk thing. I think
for them, this is the time where you probably take risk.

Speaker 2 (01:53:49):
I was, yeah, I was actually thinking about the stream
side of things, like just think about how hard it's
going to go this next tier, Like who's gonna be
the dominant stream stream guild. It's got to be a
Method over Echo.

Speaker 1 (01:54:04):
Right absolutely between the two.

Speaker 4 (01:54:08):
Absolutely not really, No.

Speaker 1 (01:54:11):
I think I think it'll be like if we have
another tier where Echo or a boss ahead the whole time,
I don't think that. I think Method will still be
setting it. So I know, I don't think the viewership.

Speaker 2 (01:54:21):
Will maybe for at least like the first like maybe
maybe and the first.

Speaker 4 (01:54:25):
Few I guess there's no hero.

Speaker 3 (01:54:27):
So there's some there's some viewership that happens during the
race that's like based on what you are doing at
that time. So like if you are the farthest guild
on the second to last boss, you're gonna get crazy
fucking viewers, no matter what your name was before that point.
But a lot of the race, you're doing what we
had done the night before, but you're just in the

(01:54:48):
you guild, or you're doing splits, and that I think
is largely determined certainly on the streamers in your guild.
But like it's about the hype around your guild and
your previous success, and I don't think Method like methods
viewership gets fucking cratered by Echoes right now. This this
is not going to change that. But if they beat
them or come very close in the raid after, maybe Yeah.

Speaker 2 (01:55:11):
I am actually very curious to see how it boils down,
because it feels like there's a lot of hype behind
method right now, specifically because of the whole Oliver picking
up now with Zalea and you know, all these other people.

Speaker 1 (01:55:23):
Now in particular, it brings with them, you know, a
pretty large, you know stream contingent of of fairly loyal fans.
Although does players are still gonna have some split loyalty,
assuming Ginger is still with that go and stuff, which.

Speaker 4 (01:55:35):
Yeah, that interesting.

Speaker 1 (01:55:37):
True. Yeah, when I first saw the like list of
people going over, I assume Gingy would be joining them
on that on that move too.

Speaker 3 (01:55:42):
But I think he cares too much about winning. I
think he cares more about winning than like.

Speaker 1 (01:55:48):
Anyone life itself.

Speaker 3 (01:55:50):
Yeah, I mean, like when he I remember the story
from JB where when JB's team won in that Australia
md I and like that was the first time like
Echo had lost while like Ginger like didn't say anything
to anyone like the whole night, Like, I just think
he takes losing more, which I assume is just like
caring about winning, being competitive is something that's really true
with him. Like I said, the one thing that echo

(01:56:11):
players going to Method No right now is that they
do not currently have a better chance of winning. I
would be willing to bet that if Gingy, with how
close he is Azalea, if you thought that Method had
a better chance of winning, I'm almost positive you would go,
I think, right, because that's the like all of your
friends are there.

Speaker 1 (01:56:30):
Yeah, I mean, it's all speculation, and uh, it feels
in particular. One of the things that I don't want
to speculate about is the allegations themselves against Alia, because like,
being wrong in either direction about that would be very bad.
And no, I like, I don't want to do that
in my speculation because I'm going to do some seculating

(01:56:51):
now about all the I say workings of the guilds,
and I don't want to speculate on that. But I
do want to like acknowledge that those are very serious
allegations and some of them aren't public. I hope that
the third party thing that's go did I got out
full access to all that stuff and they're you know,
they know what they're doing there, because it would suck
in either direction to be wrong when you know about

(01:57:13):
making a decision like this right like that either way
would be really uh would be bad, although I would
definitely be worse, especially for Method given their history to
be wrong it a decision they've made right now is terminal.

Speaker 3 (01:57:25):
If yeah, it'd be so uh.

Speaker 1 (01:57:29):
That might I don't know. Again, I don't want I
don't want to get into that because I don't have
any knowledge of they of the private stuff or anything
like that. The other thing I don't know about, but
I do have some you know, like the reputation of
the guilds on is Historically Method has been a guild
that and an org that has been more effective at
like doing the sponsory stuff than Echo has, right like

(01:57:50):
you know, collecting, especially especially relative to their you know,
prestige that they should have for the world rank that
they have, right and because the play that are on there,
like they have converted a much less good on paper
resource into I assume similar or maybe even better financials.
I don't know that for sure, but they're like that

(01:58:12):
that side of that Org seems like it's doing really well.
So and that makes sense, right, Like that's always with
something that was true about about Method, even back before
the the Josh thing, right, So I think that they're
you know, players may also be making a calculation that's like, hey, financially,
we think Method is going to be sustainable and Echo
might not be, right, so like we'll make that hop
over now and at some point that that that that

(01:58:34):
that may be the guild that survives and the other
might die. I don't know again that.

Speaker 3 (01:58:38):
Well, I mean I doubt it's a long play like that. Like, hey,
because the one thing is players are pretty simple, right,
Like currently the Echo players that went to Method are
making more methan they did in ECO. That as far
as I know, that is true for all of them.
So even in the short term, sometimes you can be like, hey,
I could make a couple extra one hundred bucks a month,
and I'll be fair, you're.

Speaker 1 (01:58:57):
Going back to the Echo, you know, whenever that's stop
being true, presumably if you're good enough, right, Like, which
obviously depends on the player.

Speaker 3 (01:59:04):
Yeah, yeah, it could happen, but but yeah, like maybe
long term, I don't know about methods business. I mean, so,
so I know Sko and Sasha had like a lot
of business connects, way more than I think Echo, like
Scripe and Roger had the capacity to do when they
went there. I think they hired like a business manager
and as far as I know they've they've gotten pretty
real sponsors. You know, so they have that. So what

(01:59:27):
pays your business relationships only really go so far. Like like,
for example, if you're doing a RAID and you get
great sponsors and you have ten K viewers and or
five k, and your opponents have fifty k Echo as
city k, if you were getting paid the same, those
ones that pay for the ten K viewership are going
to sue you. Like that's not that you're not giving

(01:59:50):
them the value those as a five times more value
or or you don't get sued. Unlikely you get sued.
You don't get sued. But next raid, they are not
fucking paid you the amount that they should be paying
to get five times more, you know what I mean?
Business works itself out that way. No one, no one's
no one. Let's just say, like I'm making this up
course Air sponsors, Echo and method right, like uh, there's

(02:00:13):
no way they are paying Method the same amount as
Echo for five times less viewers. It's just it's just
simply not happening, right or at least after one rate
it would never happen again. And uh you could get
new sponsors, but then that throws the whole like relationships
argument out the window because then those would have been burned, right,
So I don't know. I really think Method is just saying.

(02:00:36):
I think Method just put themselves on a clock, yeah,
a like two tier clock to win or beat Echo
or Echo dies or I think they're dead.

Speaker 1 (02:00:45):
And from a cynical perspective as well, like if Blizzard
already doesn't like them, then they don't have to work,
like then taking an action that makes Blizzard not like
you more doesn't also matter and for them, like it
would for guilds that that Blizzard maybe does.

Speaker 3 (02:00:57):
Like right, like oh that's oh yeah, I mean like
I remember, you know, like uh we did last blizz Con.
There was like some some m yeah, there was like
a guild clash thing. The guilds all made a pretty
good amount of money from that. Like like if that
were to happen right now, there is no fucking shot
Method is invited to that in my opinion, like the

(02:01:20):
at least is if I know Blizzard, they are they
are not happy with that, right, so they're probably not included,
so that that is you're losing some money in that
way as well. So, like I said, I think, I
think they're swinging for the fences and not to not
to like defend their decision to do that, but I
think if you're on method side and you're smart, you

(02:01:40):
just you just seen what happened to pieces. You just
know you can't do that forever. Even if it's controversial,
if you can live with it, making big swings totally
makes sense making a big You'd rather make a big
swing and it fail and you die than just die
by by a thousand cuts, like did you know? Because

(02:02:02):
it has followed almost that exact same trajectory, So I
get it well.

Speaker 2 (02:02:06):
So overall, is this a W for the race the
world first viewing experience or is it more.

Speaker 3 (02:02:12):
Of like a I think there's gonna be a lot
more people involved in the race that are the worst
people you've ever met.

Speaker 1 (02:02:20):
But I don't know. The miner setic is a lot
of those people were already involved in that. Maybe maybe
a lot of those.

Speaker 3 (02:02:28):
Yeah, Method Method did gain some fans from this, they
did not. Some of the fans they gained are maybe
not the fans you would want, but they're going to
They're going to be cheering real loud.

Speaker 1 (02:02:42):
All right, let's move on to our uh our patriot
question this week, which comes in from Francis that says,
pot of you. I've heard on many sources, including this podcast,
that there are people in the world that believe a
failed key on Radario makes it harder to get into groups.
And I never believed it until I found out that
one of these silly geeses in my guild were a
ten or eleven key having failed to time a different key,

(02:03:02):
and this guilty was pushing us to focus up, but
the rest of the group was just kind of vibing.
We failed to time the key and this guy bailed immediately,
and when reached out to ask well why, the response
we got was that failed keys on Radario make getting
into groups harder. I was stunned hearing this. I can't
believe there's any merit to this. I've no doubt there
are people that definitely would dig and dig into someone's
full dungeon history, but in the five years i've been

(02:03:24):
back doing keys, I've never hit upon this conspiracy in
the wild. I don't see anything on Radario that shows
like completed versus timed keys. Maybe I'm blind. Is there
any merit to this conspiracy?

Speaker 3 (02:03:35):
Uh?

Speaker 1 (02:03:35):
And then there's a second question, But we could start
with this one.

Speaker 2 (02:03:38):
This used to be a big thing in Legion. I
remember back in Legion, it used to like straight up
just show your depleted keys on your rear out page.
And I was like big and pugging back in Legion,
so like I knew very well what the situation was like.
But ever since then, they don't show depleted keys like
in your recent runs anymore. But if any one digs

(02:04:00):
around in your actual runs, venerable show. But I mean,
like that is so rare nowadays. You don't have to
absolutely degenerates that at that Bear's higher.

Speaker 1 (02:04:10):
Yeah exactly.

Speaker 3 (02:04:11):
But like, like, okay, the best players in the world
deplete infinite keys. Yeah, Like the ones that are doing
the highest keys, they deplete fucking all the time. Right,
that's the point. You're trying to do something it's like
almost impossible, and then maybe you do it right. Uh,
But then if you look at like timing tens or whatever.
So is it true that, like if you were to
dive into someone's history and you got two augivocres with
the exact same io score and one of them just

(02:04:34):
has like a fail rate that's fifty percent higher than
the other, that guy may have gotten grieved. But like
you could just deduce that maybe that guy is the
reason those keys are getting thrown and then just due
to the sheer process of quantity, that's how he has
received that.

Speaker 1 (02:04:50):
Or maybe the other guy's leaving keys. Though maybe the
other guy's leaving keys because he's worried that you're gonna
do this.

Speaker 3 (02:04:54):
So so while that is true, it's a fucking ten,
Like this guy said at ten or eleven key, I
ain't no fucking way someone's inviting someone to a weekly
ten and goes into their radar I owe and looks
for fails. I actually, I know we can be out
of touch. Maybe I'm totally wrong here. I actually don't
think that happened like this season. Like if someone's done that,

(02:05:18):
they did it on accident.

Speaker 1 (02:05:20):
Yeah, or they're the kind of person that you're glad
you don't get invited to their group like you are
a service is being done to you if you are
avoiding that person.

Speaker 2 (02:05:27):
And maybe it's there they just like really don't want
ver tend to be a weekly no leaver, like if
they just want the ace move sailing tene.

Speaker 3 (02:05:35):
This guy left afterwards these He didn't leave during the
key once he realized it was going to be failed.
That's the corny thing to do.

Speaker 1 (02:05:42):
I mean, so I get the argument that there will
be group leaders that just want to invite the best
people possible, right, But I don't actually think there are
people that will pop open your radario page and not
look at just your best run of each dungeon, but
actually look through and be like, ooh, did you deflete
any of these? Like No, there's no way that you
would do that, right, Like, I also don't think that
that's something, especially at that keystone level, that any group

(02:06:04):
leaders are actually doing. And if they are, they are
encouraging the behavior of hearthing out if you're gonna lose
a key instead of instead of finishing it, which is
you know, worse, right, Like, that's that's literally worse.

Speaker 3 (02:06:15):
If anyone wants to incite violence on Twitter dot com
or wow forums, what you should do is raidar Io
should release an update for their add on that actually
shows the fail rate on the toy. Yeah, when you
hover over someone in the group finder. And even you
don't even have to actually make this part of the
add on. You just have to make a fake screenshot

(02:06:37):
of it and just put it on Twitter and just
have some random no name account be like this is
a new radar io feature and it'll be.

Speaker 4 (02:06:43):
All we talk about for like this this the ARCon shit.

Speaker 1 (02:06:45):
Oh yeah yeah, it would be so much worse than that,
because like that actually would make people start really doing this.
People would heart out of keys if they were getting
close to depleted. In fact, they would do it earlier,
or they would stay in and grief it until other
people left, just to make sure that you didn't for
manute and win afterwards and.

Speaker 2 (02:07:03):
Card right, like it should show how many rezilt keys
that person ran. So hm, I mean it, guys, it's
like some pretty high time keys, but we're all just
rezilt keys.

Speaker 1 (02:07:12):
Yeah, rhetori. I should also introduce like an escro service
where you can mail your goal before as your payment
for doing the resilient keys that go to the Resilient
Key group masters. I don't know if you guys have
seen this, But people in the group finders are charging
you for runs of their resilient keys.

Speaker 4 (02:07:25):
Yeah, real behavior going on with resil keys.

Speaker 1 (02:07:30):
Yeah.

Speaker 3 (02:07:32):
Uh, and door Key's part of it, that's right.

Speaker 1 (02:07:34):
I mean again, I think resilient key is still more
good than bad Dude. The LFG thing where people are
trying to charge you for them is definitely on the
bad side of it.

Speaker 3 (02:07:43):
All right, was the second part of the question.

Speaker 1 (02:07:45):
The more interesting question for our lovely pod centers and
Frank is what meal is your go to comfort meal
and why? For me, it's a pull pork sandwich with
coleslaw as it teleports me back some of the family
trips we take when I was a kid. Thanks and
much love in advance or and patios, and franc says,
my comfort meal would be a meat stew. Of course,

(02:08:06):
you know European if that's so kind of all their foods,
there is just some variety of meat stews.

Speaker 3 (02:08:13):
So is this kind of like that YouTube like the
your last meal or whatever you just like talk about
all the food you really like? Do you do you think.

Speaker 1 (02:08:20):
One thing it's comfort meals? I don't think it's like.

Speaker 3 (02:08:24):
Go to comfort meal isn't the best thing ever, it's
the thing you eat often.

Speaker 1 (02:08:28):
Yeah, because I have an instant answer for this.

Speaker 3 (02:08:31):
Yeah, I have like two or three things, and it's
changed in like the last year for me because of
different reasons. But yeah, let's hear hear you alls.

Speaker 1 (02:08:39):
First me just Chipotle, burrito bull Oh fuck, that might
be mine too. That's like if I if I just
need a if it's like a day and I have
to eat something, that's like, that's that something has to
be something has to beat that. That's my default for
sure for me.

Speaker 3 (02:09:00):
Okay, Yeah, So mine, I would say was like probably
pizza or a or a burger specifically from this burger
place near.

Speaker 1 (02:09:10):
Me in LA.

Speaker 3 (02:09:10):
That's just fucking the bomb. And that, by the way,
as opposite of Frank that's the most American answer of
all time. But that was before I started playing hockey again.
And then like because of how much I exercise now,
my coloric intakea day is gone up by like eight
hundred to one thousand, so I've needed to eat a
lot more food. So I often have to order delivery

(02:09:32):
like right when I get home and just like pound
it down and I rotate through like pasta like bolonaise,
specifically Chipotle burrito, Like two of those a week, bare minimum,
so like kind of same. I randomly crave a subway
meatball sub and subway fucking sucks.

Speaker 1 (02:09:55):
Wait hold up, what do you mean you made the sandwich? Yeah?

Speaker 3 (02:09:59):
No, I know it sucks, but I like, uh, yeah,
we're not sponsored Bright Now I I had I like that.

Speaker 1 (02:10:04):
And then.

Speaker 3 (02:10:07):
What's the other one?

Speaker 1 (02:10:08):
Oh?

Speaker 3 (02:10:08):
I still get the burg but now I don't feel
bad about it. Like before I would get the berg
and feel bad about it, and now it's like, dude,
I get to eat a burger and like, I totally
need all of this not the healthiest fats, but fie.

Speaker 2 (02:10:21):
I was gonna go with pizza too. I was gonna
go with pizza, but I don't know if I would
consider about a comfort food. It's between pizza or halal
halal carfood. I mean, people even know what hell is.
I feel like like it's like it's an it's an
extremely New York slash maybe American thing.

Speaker 1 (02:10:41):
Helal is. It's a it's like a it's a dietary restriction.

Speaker 4 (02:10:46):
Right now, it is, but but that's not what we
refer to.

Speaker 3 (02:10:49):
Okay, what is Helal of New York.

Speaker 4 (02:10:53):
Well, I mean you guys have Helo guys, right, and.

Speaker 1 (02:10:55):
Yeah, hello, I I know guys. I've never been to
a Hell guys.

Speaker 3 (02:10:59):
And it looks like a bowl like pea bread, yeah
bread or something like that.

Speaker 4 (02:11:06):
Yeah.

Speaker 2 (02:11:07):
Yeah, so that's like something that I get a lot
of as good as hell or it's uh fun.

Speaker 3 (02:11:13):
It was like fumen goes hard as fuck.

Speaker 2 (02:11:17):
Yeah, all, man, is like such a good, like if
you're feeling hungover or if you're just feeling.

Speaker 4 (02:11:24):
Like shit, like, it's always such a good.

Speaker 3 (02:11:27):
The answer has to just be pizza, cause like it's
like the comfort food. It's like the food where like
nothing else matters and you just want to eat it
and you don't care about what it's doing to your body.
You're just like, dude, I want to eat this so bad.
I'm sick right now. I'm fucking sick, bro. Even though
eating a bunch of cheese and you're sick probably isn't great,
but like, you know, like I just need this thing.
I feel like it might still be.

Speaker 1 (02:11:46):
You've had a bad day, Yeah, you want some food.

Speaker 3 (02:11:49):
Yeah, I don't care, and I don't care about the consequences.
I want purely for taste. Pizza goes crazy. Man, if
you can find a pizza plast dude, normally, La Pizza supers.
It's like, I mean, LA's food quality is through the
roof crazy. Like every kind of food you can never
get in La is awesome except for pizza. Pizza's just like,
there are better pizza places and basically everywhere I've lived

(02:12:10):
except for LA until recently. There's this place that only
takes cash, is only open like four hours a day,
four days a week randomly in LA somehow that you
can make rent by doing that, and they only make
like Detroit style pizza New York then, and it is
fucking incredible. It's it's by far the best pizza I've

(02:12:32):
had here.

Speaker 4 (02:12:33):
Oh dude, I mean I live in New York.

Speaker 2 (02:12:35):
Yeah, Like, pizza is a huge part for me because
I grew up in an Italian neighborhood and I have
like so many pizza rias around me. In fact, one
of them has gone viral.

Speaker 3 (02:12:46):
On Wait Wait Talk.

Speaker 4 (02:12:47):
It's actually insane.

Speaker 3 (02:12:48):
I was in New York recently, maybe I went.

Speaker 2 (02:12:49):
There Chris Pizez Pizzeria. No, well, you might have heard
of it or seen the guy before right, like he
he's like super huge on take talking now, which is
actually insane like that, that's like the place that I
usually go to all the time.

Speaker 3 (02:13:06):
I went to Holy shit, I'm like scrolling through names.

Speaker 1 (02:13:10):
Yeah me too.

Speaker 3 (02:13:11):
Bro Wait, it's showing me. I typed New York Pizzeria
and it's showing me la hey man, hey.

Speaker 1 (02:13:19):
Well it's because New York is a style of pizza,
so it's assuming you're looking for New York pizza.

Speaker 3 (02:13:24):
No Scars. I went to Scars Pizza.

Speaker 4 (02:13:27):
I heard scarscars.

Speaker 3 (02:13:29):
Do you like Scars?

Speaker 4 (02:13:31):
It's pretty good? Yeah, as good as fo.

Speaker 3 (02:13:34):
Yeah, it's pretty good. There was another one too, but
it's like closer the bridge, mind it. I mean I've
had a slice of Joe's before.

Speaker 2 (02:13:45):
Joe's I feel like is overrated, but you know it
is good.

Speaker 1 (02:13:48):
Yeah. I will say New York style pizza is definitely
the premiere style, like the Chicago style pizza is unaccepted.

Speaker 3 (02:13:56):
Okay, pizza is just a different. It's just a different.
It shouldn't be called pizzas it's like closer to lasagna
and it's also way too much food. But it is
good though.

Speaker 1 (02:14:09):
Yeah, But like if some if you're like I don't
want pizza and somebody gives you one of those, It's
like this is not well, yeah, it's just not pizza.

Speaker 3 (02:14:14):
Like like if you were like, dude, I want pizza
and someone gave you this, you'd be like, it's why
did you Why did you give me this?

Speaker 1 (02:14:20):
This?

Speaker 3 (02:14:20):
This is just not what I say. You could have
given me like broccoli, like I thought you were giving pizza,
like just a different item. Uh. Detroit's good, though, I
feel like Detroit if you've had it, Detroit. Detroit pizza
is definitely creeping up there for me. For like, really
well made.

Speaker 1 (02:14:37):
The square cuts.

Speaker 3 (02:14:38):
It's like square cut. It's a little thicker crust, but
it's nowhere nearago crispy on the edges. Yeah yeah, it
goes kind of crazy.

Speaker 1 (02:14:47):
I like one too. Yeah. All right, Well on that note,
that's going to be the end of this surprisingly long
bonus episode. Is a bonus episode, well not really a bonus.

Speaker 3 (02:14:59):
Episode, but no, because we have doubles in a while in.

Speaker 1 (02:15:01):
The sense of like, hey, you got an episode, so
be happy, everybody. Yeah, don't know what's happened.

Speaker 4 (02:15:06):
You know, I will say I am.

Speaker 2 (02:15:11):
I'm very happy to see all of the support that
I get for the fucking injustice I got.

Speaker 3 (02:15:17):
Oh yeah, you had, you had, at least from what
I could tell, like ninety there was almost no one
that was like, dorky fucked up. It was like almost
purely possible.

Speaker 1 (02:15:26):
It's just totless.

Speaker 2 (02:15:28):
Yeah yeah, everybody else, but yeah, yeah, yeah, shout out
to you all of the support. But also, this is
like the first time I've seen people siding with the
person that got fucked rather than like lizards should have
the Q of these guys, you know what I mean.

Speaker 3 (02:15:48):
I mean, yeah, it was. I think what really helped
you is that there was no rule you could individually
point to and be like, that's exactly what happened here.

Speaker 1 (02:15:58):
They were all kind of like, maybe that kind of applies,
and it.

Speaker 3 (02:16:03):
Was clearly clearly they just like overreacted or it was
the you know what you said before they told a
team now and then didn't tell you that.

Speaker 4 (02:16:12):
Absolutely all right, get on fuck.

Speaker 1 (02:16:15):
The bench justice for dorky body. Good night,

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Ep. 71 - Did Dorki Really Cheat in the MDI??

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.css-14f5ked{margin:0;word-break:break-word;display:-webkit-box;-webkit-box-orient:vertical;box-orient:vertical;-webkit-line-clamp:2;overflow:hidden;}Ep. 71 - Did Dorki Really Cheat in the MDI??