Ep. 72 - Is this going too far???

Hello friends and enemies of the PoddyC Podcast. This Week Dratnos, Maximum and Dorki are talking about the MDI Finals! that's right we've got another heater on the stove. We'll also be talking about the current state of 11.1 and what's going on with the patch, why resilient keys are seemingly muddying the waters of what M+ is supposed to be, as well as much more - hope you enjoy!


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Episode Transcript

Speaker 1 (00:00):
A Welcome to episode seventy two of The pottyc. This week,
the MDI is over and despite Dorky not being in it,
which you can hear more about how that happened last
week episode. It was actually pretty pretty hype finals. Obviously
I got some bias, but there are a lot of
people watching it and ended up being a really close
finish at the end of the day.

Speaker 2 (00:20):
What was the how many people were.

Speaker 1 (00:23):
Between like all the players and the mainstream. I think
it was in the like over fifty thousand or something.

Speaker 3 (00:31):
I heard it was sixty k total concurrent views.

Speaker 1 (00:34):
Yeah, obviously like this.

Speaker 3 (00:35):
I think that includes it's been in a long time.

Speaker 1 (00:37):
Yeah, the players, which obviously have their own good leadership,
but yeah, oh yeah yeah.

Speaker 3 (00:41):
I mean it makes sense why this tournament was so
much more popular than the past few Well, for one
of this season has just been a good season overall,
but also having big name teams show up like the
lat Top four were Perplexed, Mandatory, the Echo guys who
renamed to Windobar and was it a miscount. It was

(01:05):
actually really hype to watch because it was a complete
roller coaster. It was like, wait, miscounts actually popping off
on day two. But then all of a sudden like, wait,
Mandatory is gonna win this one. But then all of
a sudden spoiler alert if you don't want to listen
to the spoilers, Wundabar actually took the tournament.

Speaker 1 (01:21):
Yeah, so we came into the last day with Miscounts
in the lead, and then for a lot of the day,
Mandatory was in the lead, and then vunderbarb was in
the lead, and then Manator was in the lead again,
and then vunderbar won in overtime. So that was that's
like inherently pretty hype.

Speaker 2 (01:34):
Yeah, I was. I was listening to it on the
way to Disney yesterday and I left off it was
like around two thirty or so, and it was you know,
I wasn't watching it. It was in my car, but I
was just hearing it and people were just like, oh, well,
you were casting obviously, and you were like, oh, looks
like you know, Mandatory is really not has this wrapped up?

(01:55):
But it was, you know, really really seeming like Mandatory
was going to win. So I was like I went
to Disney the whole day just being like, all right, Mandatory, like, yep,
good to good on them. They've won before stuff like that,
and then and then I saw some tweets and I
like rewatched it, so I like my drive home from
Disney was just listening to the end of it, and
it was very exciting. For sure.

Speaker 3 (02:16):
It was the most insane ending, Like it couldn't have
been closer of an ending.

Speaker 4 (02:22):
Yeah, but yeah, So the craziest part was each of
the teams on Saturday got a top key done.

Speaker 1 (02:33):
Yeah.

Speaker 3 (02:33):
We saw Miscount we got world first twenty three Motherload.
Nobody thought it would be like possible of that early on.
In fact, I heard from the Miscount guys that they
didn't even enter twenty three Motherload in practice, Like they
straight up just got to like the second boss at
most in practice, and they pretty much one shot of

(02:54):
a dungeon on Saturday, which is insane. I mean, that's
what happens when you're playing in tournaments. You just get
a tournament buff, you just passively get ten percent more damage.
I don't know where everyone's just so fucking locked in
at sick. Yeah. I mean, I have lots to say
about resilient keys later on, but it's like related to this.
It's what happens whenever you just aren't in vent brain

(03:16):
Rod of running the same key over and over and
over again. But yeah, so they got twenty three move
alone and then Echo got twenty two Theater of Pain
and who was the lasteing Mandatory got twenty two cinder
ru like three different teams with three different top keys,
and we were all would word of all teams score
I don't remember.

Speaker 1 (03:36):
Yeah, they they were coming out of the last or
coming out of Saturday and then miscounted up being one
point behind at the end of Sunday, but they were
like they came into the day in the lead. So yeah,
it was sick and that it's I think the first
time we've ever had this format where a team has
won without having like the top or tied for the

(03:57):
top and all the keys, cause Underbard never did the
twenty two metory that Mandatory was able to do. They
just improved their timer in the twenty one instead, which
is a little bit weird. That's always one of the
kind of downsides I think if it's not close, is
like time improvement can kind of suck for viewing.

Speaker 2 (04:12):
But oh, I didn't even know. I didn't even know
that was the case. I didn't even know that there
were so like when I was listening to it on
the car may to me, it sounded like everyone's done
all of the keys that are possible to do, and
oh no, we're just we're just working on time. But
literally the metory that Echo did and had such a
crazy run, and Mandatory was the only thing they didn't

(04:33):
even e Coul didn't even attempt a twenty two.

Speaker 1 (04:35):
They did one pull of it at the end of
Friday and then they never went back. They just they
just sped it up in the twenty one instead, and
they had the twenty one or twenty two theater that
Mandatory didn't do, so the two teams had like a
different twenty two to the other.

Speaker 2 (04:48):
I don't know if that's ever never happening.

Speaker 1 (04:50):
Right, it was sick. It is the first time I
think that that's ever happened. Yeah.

Speaker 2 (04:54):
Wow, that's really interesting because usually.

Speaker 1 (04:56):
The winning team is like usually the format, the format's
kind of good because as long as the second place
team is close to the winning team, the winning team
like has all these keys at the end of the day,
and then the second place team is like one behind
and if they can match it, then maybe they can tie, right,
And like that's kind of fun, But this time around,
it was genuinely like three different teams that each had

(05:17):
their own strengths and weaknesses and the different dungeons, and
like Manager had the sick Theater route that other teams
tried to copy, but it had a lot of hard
stuff with it and they weren't able to do the
twenty two in So yeah, I don't know. I thought
we got really lucky to have the teams.

Speaker 2 (05:30):
Be Why did that happens? Why this season? Like was
there anything about the rules or the dungeon pool or
anything that allowed that to happen? Do you think or
do you think it was?

Speaker 3 (05:39):
Just like rang, I want to say, it's the avoidance hmm,
like not gonna lie have of avoidance made this tournament
more interesting to watch because also just the them selecting
of the correct key levels and the correct dungeons, because
had they picked Rookery or Workshop or if the keys
started lower, it would have been super lame to watch.
But it just happened to be like, the right keys,

(06:01):
the right level, and the avoidance decision made it kind
of interesting because players got to actually push their limits
and instead of like, all right, we're gonna get really
hard walled by this one boss. And because we can
time this key with five minutes, or because we can
get time to keep with five minutes, but we can't
kill that boss on a high key level, we just
go for timer instead. So it led to this situation

(06:23):
where depending on which team you were, you were just
better in a certain dungeon like mandatory. They were just
more practice than sind. Their brewin echo had some crazy
cook in they of pain. We're just we're just jumping
off platforms and snapping moms and somehow not getting disqualified.
Meanwhile I got disqualified. We're using a shocking disclosure. But
uh yeah, it was pretty cool. Like the final hour,

(06:46):
people were questioning these teams decisions, Like a lot of
the viewers were not happy with them going for timer
instead of going for points, because it's always more exciting
to watch points, right, It's kind of like when you're watching,
like when we're watching boxing, you want to see someone
getting knocked out. You don't want to watch these teams
win based off of how many you.

Speaker 2 (07:06):
Don't want to see people running the same dungeon they
have already completed. But I think the thing that's normal, Okay,
So I think that's more acceptable in a tournament where
it appears everyone or at least the top two teams
have like cleared the dungeons that are clearable and now
they're going for time. But it was like they're going
for time in a dungeon that someone else has timed

(07:27):
a higher key of in the tournament, and that's I mean,
that is just confusing, because yeah, man, that hasn't happened.

Speaker 3 (07:32):
Yeah, it's like, what are you doing Wundobar, like go
into a CINDERPLU twenty two and if people are like
the same thing in medatory stream, they're like twenty one
question mark. Everyone was just so confused by the whole situation.

Speaker 1 (07:46):
Yeah, I have a cook for making that not happen.
It's like it's one of those things where like the
fact that it seems so counterintuitive to everybody, I think
means it's probably worth changing, even though it's not like
like if there's not any real reason that it has
to be that it's not like exciting to watch a
team go for you know, a twenty nine thirty timer
or something like that's not inherently an unexciting thing to watch, right,

(08:09):
But everybody gets so confused when when people are going
for the like the time improvement keys. So what you
could do is you change the tie breaker from timer
to who got that key done first so or who
got to that point total first. Uh, And then that's
like something you can't change, you can't improve it. You

(08:31):
just have to get an extra point if you were
the second team to get to a certain point.

Speaker 3 (08:34):
That sounds lough, but yeah, I can see that.

Speaker 1 (08:36):
Yeah, it would devalue the time element of keys, which
is a bit of a downside because like if you're
two minutes faster, you know, maybe you should get rewarded
for that, but I don't.

Speaker 2 (08:46):
Know, you know.

Speaker 3 (08:46):
I will say watching Echo in vat final hour was
actually exciting, Like I've never seen a team so locked
in before, where if they're just shaving time and time
and time. It's like almost like watching the Race Award
first where you're like seeing a boss getting progressed at
a rapid pace and you just see the boss like
getting pushed further each p one or two. It's like,

(09:08):
all right, instead of getting the boss to sixty five percent,
they got to like sixty three percent this time, Like
where did it even pull this damage out of from?
And that final run. They just went flying. They they
went like leasing through that entire key, and it was
actually insane to watch. But it was also like the
first time we've seen three keys in content or three
teams in contention for.

Speaker 2 (09:28):
First I just find it fascinating that all the teams
were like, it's it's time to go for time and
when there are timeable clear like proven timeable keys, and
so early in the day to make that decision too.
I just found that to be so interesting, especially because
I found it out on this podcast. I couldn't even
believe it from just listening to it, you know.

Speaker 1 (09:49):
Yeah, Yeah, It's one of those things where like just
because some other team has proved that it's possible, like
if you've never done it in practice, especially the theater
for the teams that didn't have the twenty two theater,
and like you have to do this strategy to echo
as of like jumping off the side and gathering this
poll that you've never done in your own practice. I
think it makes sense that like that's going to be
very hard to just implement. A couple of teams tried to,

(10:11):
but more likely than not, it's gonna not work out.

Speaker 3 (10:16):
Yeah, Honestly, to be fair of these teams, even though
they could have done it either, Like I said, like
a lot of them just did it for the first
time in tournament. It's not something like they even practice.

Speaker 1 (10:29):
Yeah, what's your take on resilient keys.

Speaker 3 (10:31):
Dorkie, Oh, well, there wasn't a whole lot to say
about it, but it was mostly just I feel like
it's gone really out of hand into a really high
key situation, like for not for like you know, people
who are doing less than seventeen keys, but like above that,
there's been some shit going on, like people selling keys,

(10:53):
people getting two insanely high keys that they've probably never
entered before, or just like you know, not really having
like a good understanding of how the dungeons even work,
Like I don't even know how it works. I've been
in these pug keys with players that are that are
doing like a seventeen or eighteen key, and they don't
even know the basic mechanics of some of the bosses

(11:15):
or mobs. And there's also just like basic skips that
they don't even understand, like skipping double Hopgoblin in Cinderbrew. Also,
you just have players like this jang be Major. I've
been seeing I've been seeing comments about this guy. Yeah,
apparently there's this wild major olevire who doesn't even know
the the basics but is able to time fifteen's all

(11:37):
because he has friends friends these keys.

Speaker 1 (11:43):
I don't know whichever player in org that is that
that is associated with that should be really uh really
embarrassed about unleashing Jangbe upon the pug scene.

Speaker 2 (11:53):
I mean, that's just kind of gonna happen though, Like
even before resilient keys, if you cleared a high key
level on your and that was your friend group, you
logging on an alt and getting a higher key you
otherwise wouldn't have had access to is like super normal, right,
Like that's being being happened.

Speaker 1 (12:09):
Yeah, I I think that so resilient keys are interesting
because there's like a few different things that they do.
But the thing that is the I think the weirdest
is when you are when it's like it's not a
prog key for the person holding the key, but it
is for somebody in the group who isn't holding the key,
and they're getting to like piggyback off of the resilience

(12:30):
of somebody else's key, and it's so weird because like
it's so based on either having friends or buying into
you know, higher keys than you've actually done yourself.

Speaker 3 (12:40):
Yeah, there's a lot of groups out there about our
straight up. Uh, it's like you're listing in eighteen Brazil
and Ville will require a twenty K tip to join,
like e per attempt for your key. You can actually
make a ton of gold like this, dude. I got
twenty Razil this week, and I thought about maybe, yeah,
maybe maybe I can just like list them and I
can have like viewers joined, but they gotta be subscribed.

Speaker 1 (13:03):
Oh yeah, that's gonna be coos, but they're gonna trouble
for it.

Speaker 3 (13:07):
Yeah, I would never do There was probably like a
lot of content ideas you can deal with that at all.

Speaker 1 (13:12):
Yeah, that's weird because like I think the resilient key
system is really good outside of those cases. Like I
think the thing it does where it gives you a
nice floor for your own keys. If you were just
playing with a group of five people and only ever
with those five people, and you like got resilient keys
together and then use them together, I think that I
think the upside of that is really really high. But

(13:33):
the fact that you're like mixing and matching in people
who have or don't have the resilience. I don't know.
I kind of just wish that they changed it from
how it works right now to just like all keys
being resilient for everybody except maybe three attempts per or
maybe not even that. Maybe just all keys being resilient
for everybody, and then at least we don't have this, uh,
this weird element of you know, people uh, you know,

(13:57):
having an EASi or hard time like what my guild's
gonna do. I'm gonna let you know right now, we've
got we We got Terson who played and goateed in
my in my guild, bro we got twenty or something,
and he's going to be seating a lot of people
titles this season, very very easily. We're going to have
a you know, eight key adventure on a lot of
people to get titled. And that's I mean, it's something,

(14:17):
but I'm not sure it should work. Although guess it
would still work if if resilient keys were just for everybody,
So I don't know.

Speaker 3 (14:24):
So it is kind of interesting. There is a whole
lot more meta strategy copying going on in the hier Keys,
and I think that has to do with resilience, it's
partly like because teams are able to just pull.

Speaker 2 (14:40):
Over and over again.

Speaker 3 (14:41):
Yeah, yeah, they're they're trying like more than ever in
the seventeen plus keys, they're basically doing all the m
d I roundes or whatever they see streamer is doing,
like they'll have Yoda's Yoda's routes linked.

Speaker 2 (14:56):
We we talked about this, but yeah, this this this
is going to we we talked about this when you
were doing an MDI and you were doing that huge
poll in the it was the TGP. Then at the
beginning of the Vortex Pinnacle, do you know what's what
I'm talking about, the one that was like fucking impossible,
but if you made it past that pole, and we
talked about how you would never ever do that on live.

Speaker 3 (15:16):
Keys, because it's just like, yeah, actually remember this topic.

Speaker 2 (15:19):
Yeah, you're just gonna fucking instantly break your key, there's
no point. But if you can MDI tournament realm pull
it or that's what resilient keys allow you to do
in general, you start doing that, it was bound to
happen that people are gonna, oh, if we're gonna spend
some time chain pulling this key, let's spend some time
also making sure we're doing the exact right thing that
is possible to do. It totally makes sense, but it.

Speaker 1 (15:40):
Only ever happens when it's not a prog key, except
for the one person in your group, right, So like
that's the weird part is like in theory, you could
never do this for a for a push key right
in a push group, you could never just do a
twenty one metery this way unless somebody has resilt twenty
ones right, which obviously is like nearly impossible. But then

(16:00):
if you're if you're pushing you know, nineteens, and you
have a friend who's already got resilt nineteens or twenties,
then all of a sudden you get to do your
prog that way, which is I don't know, social.

Speaker 2 (16:09):
Do you you said you wanted to spit on resilient
Do you still think resilient keys are a plus door key?

Speaker 3 (16:15):
I mean, it's probably still plus for the community, because
I mean there's definitely a lot more people doing high
keys than ever before, or at least, like you know,
for the past few years. But I still don't like
how resilient keys feel like when I'm playing them, it's
just it's kind of a slog. People kind of just
like turn their brains off. You don't have people who

(16:35):
are like, you know, locked and focused on trying to
give a key because there's no it's like all right,
you know, somebody fucks up as like, oh I I'm
my cool downs, I lost my cool downs or I
didn't prog blood beasts whatever, let's just go again. And
it's like, bro, let's not go again, like you know,
let's just continue the fucking roun like we're still time
the key. But you know, people, it's kind of like
the similar the situation to how you know in Raid,

(16:56):
when something bad happened, like if someone gets picked by
stick Bunker, then we're gonna be more incentive ized to
want the pole to fail. You guys don't talk about right,
like yeah, they're gonna fail, so that big pull the
boss again so that he can get a better run in.
But like the.

Speaker 1 (17:14):
Pilot of Jang b doing that screaming yeah, screaming for
his guild to wipe.

Speaker 2 (17:22):
A bad Yeah, blow up.

Speaker 4 (17:24):
Bomb bomb bomb show bomb show bomb show, bomb show.

Speaker 1 (17:35):
Hits, the bomb show Bombo, come on boom boom no
bomb show bombshells.

Speaker 2 (17:49):
You guys.

Speaker 1 (17:50):
Yeah, I don't know. See that's the thing, Like I
I have done a decent amount of you know, M
D I prack and b F A or whatever where
you're just are running the same dungeon over and over
and over and over again. And like I also don't
I don't enjoy that style of keystoning, but I don't
think that I don't think it's too bad like that yet.
I don't know. I haven't really done super high push
keys yet this season, but from the streams I've watched,

(18:11):
it's like I feel like what we're at right now
is not that happening. It's like that's starting to happen.
And it's one of those things where like if this
stays this way for many moons, then maybe that'll actually
start to be like a really really degenerate you know meta.

Speaker 3 (18:25):
I will say, it depends on what you thought of them.
I feel that the best solution is to make it
of that you can't run the same dungeon for at
least like until like a cool down. Yeah there was
a cool now one, so like you have to at
least do a good chunk of the dungeon before you
can go again, or like if you decide to go again,
maybe you have to go to a different dungeon.

Speaker 2 (18:42):
And if you don't come back, go far enough in
the key, it's like a thirty minute you can't start
this key, which is enough, but it'd have to be
enough to deter you. And also you have to ask,
like how many how many of all the people doing
mythic plus is this affecting? Anytime you're doing a a
like blizzard should make a change for this The first
thing they're gonna ask themselves as like, well, how many
people are interacting with this very bad interaction? And if

(19:03):
it's ever just a really small amount of people, it
might be harder to get them to do well to.

Speaker 3 (19:08):
Be fair resilient. It isn't even affecting a whole lot
of people to begin with, right, because it starts from
plus twelve. It's not like something that happens for the
lower end keys.

Speaker 2 (19:15):
But they've also set a precedent that they're willing to
work with the high key community this expansion right for
the first time ever, so you also have more chance
for them to actually think about it, or if.

Speaker 3 (19:25):
We can also do brackets, That's another thing I was
thinking about, Like you know you have to when you
do a plus twelve bracket, it doesn't deplete blow plus
twelve and then like a plus fifteen bracket sort of
like myfic rating in a sense where like if you're
like four out of eight or even better idea for
a blizzard is what if you just tied resilient keystone
to how far into mythic rate progression you are. So

(19:47):
if you like clear four bosses, then you get to
unlock resilient fifteen. And then if you clear eat all
of the entire rate, well now you get to, you know,
get resil eighteen.

Speaker 2 (19:55):
It's a great idea.

Speaker 1 (19:56):
That's a really good take.

Speaker 3 (19:57):
Yeah, yeah, yeah, yes, you have the rate in order
to actually get resilient Keith. But actually I've been seeing
people push for like they want more out of the
resilient system. Actually, like people have been saying they want
resilience to be one above what you're already at. So
if you've cleared all fourteen's, they want it so bad
you don't deplete below fifteen.

Speaker 2 (20:18):
Oh I mean that make I mean that makes sense right,
because you would only ever want to do fifteens. So
basically you're just saying the worst part of the system
is is that you can just go in and instantly
pull things over and over and over again. But you're
saying you just want it to always be like that.
You can go one higher.

Speaker 1 (20:33):
Yeah, well, I mean that fixes the because there's two
different problems. Right There's like the gameplay being bad, which
some of us some people agree with and some people
don't agree with. Right of like your attempts not mattering
and not having it be important that you play, that
you play well, and you know, having this incentive to
overload the difficulty at the front of the dungeon. That's
one potential problem. And the other potential problem is the
haves and have nots of it right where it's like

(20:55):
there are the people who get to play with friends
who have resilient keystones that matter to them versus the
people who don't, and the system is different for those two.
And the problem is if you fix that side of
the thing, but you also think the other thing is
a downside, more people are going to be exposed to
that downside because the problem with the other one is
that less people get to play with resilient keys. So
it's like a it's a very strange you know, try

(21:17):
to be able to fix both of those at once.
You kind of can't.

Speaker 2 (21:20):
How how do you guys like the gameplay of those?
Because I'm definitely more JB minded, where Like I really
have never done high keys very much, mostly because Brazilian
Keys may have changed that back then, because like I
I didn't like homework Keys's just like I've already done this.
Why are we doing this? Yeah? Uh, which resilient keys
aim to fix. But I loved MDI practice where which

(21:43):
is basically resilient keys now where you just spend all
day trying to make a poll that shouldn't be possible possible.
That that was awesome, that was like super fun. But
also that is exactly what you're saying is taking the
fun out of this for some people. Right, So, like
I wonder, like, do you guys know which side of
that you sit on?

Speaker 1 (22:00):
I'm definitely on the like I'm not on the JB
side of the debate. Like I like my one attempt
at a key mattering and not having like not being able
to just reset it over and over again.

Speaker 3 (22:11):
I probably agree with that doing the same, Yeah, I
would say it makes it feel more so. It's kind
of like playing hardcore classic versus just classic, right, Like,
if you're just playing just classic ven, it doesn't really
mean anything if you die, like it's like, all right,
you're just gonna like do shit casually. You're just gonna
it's more chill, right, It's more laid back, like kind
of just like going through your entire adventure. It's like, oh,

(22:33):
if you're dying of whatever, we care, it's just like
you go again. But when you're playing hardcore, there's a
different mindset when you're playing the game, and it just
changes the feel of the game entirely whenever it's like
something on the line. So I don't know, I mean
I'm a little bit of both. Like it kind of depends,
right because when I'm just chilling, Brazilian keystones are nice.

(22:54):
Like if I'm just playing with whoever, Like I'm just
like playing with Greg, He's he's not busy and we're
just like slamming some Rezol keys, It's whatever. It's kind
of chill. But if I'm like actually hard pushing keys,
I prefer having the keys go down, do you, Missy.
I mean, you're still doing homewor keys right now, So

(23:15):
it's not like it actually really changes it's just the
homework keys are a lot more laid back.

Speaker 1 (23:23):
Yeah, like you can't lose in them in the same way.

Speaker 3 (23:26):
Yeah. Yeah, Like today we're just doing some Razil twenty
workshops and it's like, oh, like we had some depths
on the first pull at whatever, Just let me just
run it again.

Speaker 1 (23:36):
Yeah. See. The thing is like, it's it's kind of
even lower stakes than TGP or whatever, right or i'mdi right,
or TGP especially or even time trials because in TGP
you only have the five hours, so at least there's
still like a cost to it's a small cah.

Speaker 3 (23:48):
Yeah, yeah, it's a pretty big cost. I would say
it's not small cost in TGP. Yeah, I've heard of
some real degenerate brain rotting sessions. Not not not sure,
but like I've heard of some players who were straight
up progging like an eighteen priory for eight hours straight.

Speaker 2 (24:07):
He still that's some shit, dude, that's fun if I
fucking love that shit personally.

Speaker 1 (24:13):
Do you guys remember Copple was it the there was
that stream of somebody who spent like twenty.

Speaker 3 (24:16):
Hours on you have a Korean dude there, Yeah, the
end of.

Speaker 1 (24:20):
The Korean dude. And also the Kerian dude at the
end of Spires of Ascension. Oh yeah, yeah, the last
boss there. There's like I remember, it was just like
a phenomenon where thousands of people were tuned in watching
this guy attempt it over and over again in a
depleted key. And that's basically what these things are, right,
It's like they're kind of depleted, but not depleted keys.

Speaker 3 (24:42):
Bro I missed that guy.

Speaker 2 (24:42):
Stream was not to say, did did that content run
its course or did that guy throw? Not?

Speaker 3 (24:48):
Well no, So it's because uh, Korea's which is not
a thing anymore, right, I remember that, yeahs uh yeah,
which is why a lot of the Korean streamers are gone,
which is kind of sad because I mean I felt
like that was he was a big part of like
even though nobody what I mean, like a lot of
the Westerners don't understand what the hell is actually happened. Well,
I mean we don't we know what's happening, but we

(25:09):
don't no speak the language or anything. So it was
still like a regular part of a WOW season. People
would just tune into his stream every season and he's
just in some above average key and he's just attempting
that key for ten hours straight.

Speaker 2 (25:30):
Yeah, but dude, the feeling of like you're doing those
polls and you feel yourself getting better every pole and
every you can like feel your group becoming more consistent.
You're like almost getting past it and like finally completing
that poll that oh man, that's that's as good as
like Mythic progression is the same thing. So it's like
really hard.

Speaker 1 (25:49):
That reminds me of a Faded season, not not awakened,
but faded the first time or maybe the second time
Sires and Athrius was out. My guild did twin stack.
We just tried to kill the boss through a twenty
stack at the one where you just spawned all the
ads at once, and like you know, we tried for
like thirty minutes and it was like kept almost working,
and at the pool it actually worked. Or you don't

(26:11):
even realize because it's so laggy for five seconds that
you realize like somehow it's all dead. It's like, you know,
oh my god, we've done. It's the same as mythic
progression exactly, except in both Keys and Faded Season. There's
it's not like it's kind of just for funzies, right,
It's not. There's not as much pressure, right, Yeah, which
I guess it kind of depends on how you feel
about M plus whether which of those categories it lands in. Yeah.

Speaker 3 (26:35):
So there's been some do you have anything else to say?

Speaker 1 (26:39):
No? No, no, let go.

Speaker 3 (26:41):
So there's been some talk about I mean, it's that
time of the season again, right, Like it's that time
of the season where people are starting to hit very
limit pugging, and various people will complain like, oh, you know,
I don't play metal or I played DPS. How am
I supposed to pug into hierarchies like on eighteen's already?
And I'm just like thinking, like, how do how do

(27:04):
people get to vis high of keys without having a
network of people added to the battle net or like
being in different discords, because like I swear for the
longest time way back in like Legion BFA and even
like to some extent shadow Lands. Whenever I was like
pushing higher keys, my battle Net friends lists were always

(27:26):
full and I had to like find people to delete.
And this has nothing to do with me being a
streamer or a tank by the way, because I was
not a streamer evan and I did not play tank.
I was just some boomkin bow was just like pugging keys,
and I just like, had all these different players added
general you probably like had I mean.

Speaker 2 (27:46):
I actually maybe I maybe have something I had. I
had a viewer talking about this or he was saying
that he feels like his biggest issue with resilient keys.
He's never been someone that did like fifteens or sixteen
seventeens and up, but he did like fourteen fifteen, sixteen seventeens.
And he said that this season in particular, that level
of key, that community is much smaller than it used

(28:09):
to be. And he thought that resilient keys and maybe
lack of homework keys has kind of removed some of
the people above that from ever going into those areas,
and those keys are a lot less successful and there's
a lot less people to find to do them.

Speaker 3 (28:22):
That's actually a good point, huh.

Speaker 1 (28:24):
That is interesting, Yeah, because like the way that keys
work is on a fundamental level. If you you will
get to a point where you have a fifty percent
win rate, right like you, if you have higher than
a fifty percent win rate, your key is going to
keep going up and and then it'll get to a
point where it stops. But with resilient keys, that's kind
of changed the texture, right if you're somebody who'd have

(28:45):
a fifty percent win rate at plus fourteens, but you
eventually either get or play with people who have resilient fourteens,
and then resilient fifteens, like you'll all of a sudden
be playing in the sixties instead. Yeah, and then you don't,
like the fourteen stop being something that you need to
play at.

Speaker 2 (29:01):
Yeah.

Speaker 3 (29:03):
Yeah, I mean it's kind of like the same as
how the lower keys are kind of empty, right, Like
below ten keys like aren't very really va many people
doing them. It's just because everyone's already doing ten or higher.

Speaker 1 (29:15):
Yeah, I mean a part of its incentives as well, right,
and difficulty there's kind of no reason to go below ten,
and the keys are easy enough that and like they're
like what you saw when they added when they added
the reward for doing all the twelves, immediately the amount
of people doing twelve spiked way up right from where
it had been. Yeah, naturally, Yeah, even though the difficulty

(29:36):
hadn't changed that much that week.

Speaker 3 (29:39):
But yeah, this ties into my other question, which is, houg,
how much more pug friendly does World Warcraft really need
to be, because everyone's always asking for a game to
be more pug friendly, But should you really be able
to pug the highest keys or pugnific rating. Like it
feels like Lizzard one players to be socializing, right, Like

(30:03):
they Blizard wants you guys to go out there and
find players to play with, maybe be in comms, et cetera.
But obviously the players are super against that, right, Like
if the players just want to do their own thing,
they don't want to like have to like getting voice
or have to coordinate a boss fight or a certain

(30:23):
dem on the player.

Speaker 2 (30:24):
There's both, right, like that there are people who exclusively
play this game because of that interaction of playing with friends,
and then there are a ton of solo players. I
mean it's probably like since retail has come out or
come out, it's been out the whole time, Like since
there's been a separation of Classic in retail, that has
been kind of the main differentiating thing, right, Like people
went back to Classic to seek that level of community,

(30:45):
and Retail has become maybe more solo player. But like
them pushing in that direction isn't surprising either.

Speaker 1 (30:52):
Yeah, it's like you need a little bit of friction
so that people enough people will actually because it's the
argument with like solo shuffle, right, solo shuffle kill threes
because now it's easy enough to hit Q solo shuffle,
and then you know why it's harder to find people
to do threes with. And that means that people who
were on the fence between threes and solo shuffle now
the Q time, which has some problems in solo shuffle,

(31:13):
but like finding people is a huger challenge and uh,
and so like it becomes even better to just do
Q up and do the do the solo shuffle instead, right,
and that keeps like being that keeps pushing people more
and more towards the lower friction format. And with M
plus as well, that's like when we talk about whether
M plus should have a solo qu which I think
is sort of the answer to this door he writ

(31:35):
where it's like if Blizzard wanted to let us just
have M plus have a solo Q, like they could,
but then maybe that would kill all of the you know,
fun that people end up having by playing with friends
and like making friends. And but then, like you said,
the people that are still doing pugging eighteens, like Obviously

(31:56):
they're the Obviously they're not going to start adding people
to their friends list. Kind of there's a huge amount
of incentive for them to be doing that, right and
the process of pugging up to eighteens, Like they should
have done that if they if they were willing to,
but clearly they're very unwilling to. And so how much
more can Blizzard try and coerce those people into doing
that versus how much should they just meet people where

(32:17):
they are and do something like make us so look cute?

Speaker 3 (32:20):
Yeah, I mean you're sir, you're and at a certain
point you're gonna reach a level where you have to
be on comms, Like it's just gonna happen, right, Like
there's no level of rating or and plusing that can
just be pugged.

Speaker 2 (32:38):
Yeah, and that's good or fine. I guess I think
it's good as well.

Speaker 1 (32:41):
Yeah, although I know there's a lot of friction between
people who they see the title range as being like
close to where they're at from pugging, and they want
to be able to get it without doing that, you know,
the comms and stuff finding a group of friends. But yeah,
I agree. I think I think any game that you
can't you know, I think that any format where you

(33:04):
can queue up with friends, if you choose not to,
you should expect that you're just not going to be
going to quite the same level, right, Like otherwise the
game just has to be so easy that it doesn't
mean anything.

Speaker 3 (33:17):
Or yeah, I don't know, it just becomes like kind
of like slot.

Speaker 1 (33:21):
But if you made a solo que right, like solo
QMMR could exist. It's just like you'd have to lose
if you depleted, which people wouldn't like.

Speaker 2 (33:29):
That would and that would be the twigs you would
see about That would be mind blowing.

Speaker 1 (33:35):
Yeah.

Speaker 3 (33:36):
The reason that's kind of like a topic recently is
because of the whole add on discussion that's been going
on because without omni CD, like say, you couldn't track
people's kicks. Well, then like, how am I supposed to
know like when I'm supposed to kick you all? Well,
I mean that's supposed to be something that you can
do as a group, right, Like if you were in
comms you can kind of talk about these type of things,

(33:58):
But obviously on these it makes a game a whole
lot less hug friendly.

Speaker 1 (34:04):
Yeah, we got a lot of flack on our when
we talked about the add on thing in the comments
of either only last podcast or the one before about
like how many people are there that are actually using
those to good effect? And you know we got accused
of but I think there, I think there is.

Speaker 2 (34:19):
Way What were people mad about? What do we accused of?

Speaker 1 (34:22):
You know, like not understanding that there are a lot
of players that there are you know, maybe even the
majority of players are using cool down trackers or whatever,
And it's going to make pugging impossible if you don't
know when people see these are which still real.

Speaker 3 (34:35):
That's really I'm telling you that people are just using
these add ons to blame the other players because it's
like basically, you go into a pack, right, everyone has
their kicks and stuns available. So if you like suddenly
wipe to a kick going off, well, I mean it's
not like well me, like you could have looked at

(34:56):
the thing and see everyone had cake available. Like what
if you use the your stone and then everyone else
used their stunt too, Like you don't know who's gonna
use their stuns. There's no coordination.

Speaker 2 (35:04):
Yeah, there's no coordinator. Like that's why I was working
on that week or a while ago. That like literally
automatically assigned rotator. They never really worked out really well.
But like that's why something like that would want to exist. Also,
I believe it with the kick thing. I believe kick
trackers have been around long enough where people at a
lot of levels will be like should I kick this year?
Or they saw someone else kick, I see him the
only kickups I'm going to kick next. I don't think

(35:26):
that super far up. I was directly referring to, like
the stop packages you see these like Omni CD things
were like Chaos, Nova and Grip and Silence and Beam
and like I just struck. I think there's there's a
level of player that had I would say, actually, the
majority of players that have that on their UI are
not looking at that decision, looking at those things and

(35:47):
making a decision based off of it. They're just like there, uh,
and them being removed wouldn't change a lot for them.
But also the argument there was still that if you
didn't have those things, they would they would they would
design content differently to not potentially require it, right, So.

Speaker 1 (36:04):
Like, yeah, which is always that's always one thing that
you know anytime you trust Blizzard to do that, that
you over the historically you would be you'd be losing
out if you trust the blazzerd.

Speaker 2 (36:14):
Yeah, I'm gonna go ahead and start taking best at
the first time. All this shit's in the game and
add ons don't work that it's like they just nail it,
you know, like it's there's gonna be There's gonna be
some some weird interactions for sure. You know.

Speaker 3 (36:26):
In fact, I have some cooks about kicks because I've
been thinking for the longest time, kicks have stopped becoming interesting,
especially the types of cakes that are like just rotating
kicks on one mob or rotating kick on a boss
like that type of mechanic just doesn't work, especially for
pugs without on the CD, you can't just expect people

(36:48):
to perfectly rotate cakes like eye kick and deep hunter
kick and a roll kick and then back to the
road kick again.

Speaker 1 (36:55):
So especially with the way the current game design is designed,
like if you have have a priest healer and you're
down a kick, versus if you have you know, a
resto shaman and therefore you're up a kick or I
guess not rested now that all the healers have it,
but like you know, you have like a spec that
has an extra kick effect of some kind, and it's
just like, how can they balance it so that you
need to use exactly all of your kicks properly? I
don't know.

Speaker 3 (37:16):
Yeah, I think it makes it so much more interesting.
So one of them was, like that idea had in
the past. It could just also make one kick where
it fixates on a player, so a players get like
a heat seeker missile and only that person can kick it,
so that person's in charge of their own kick. That'd
be like a nice mechanic. It would be something that's
pug friendly, and you're still using your interrupt I mean there's.

Speaker 2 (37:40):
Also couldn't you even go an extra step? Couldn't you?
I mean, couldn't you? I mean, I don't know if
this is good for the game, but like, couldn't you
just make it so every time there's a kick going off,
like someone in the party's kick is gonna light up,
and that means then Blizzard just decides who that person
is and you just but then it's like, I don't know,
this is such a STUPI example, I was a Disney
yesterday and you're probably really wondering where I'm going with this.

(38:02):
There's a ride. Actually there's a ride at Disney. I
think it's like we're like basically piloting the Millennium Falcon,
and like, you can be three different roles. You can
be a pilot, you can be a gunner, or you
can be an engineer. And bro if you get engineer,
it's such a tremendous low roll. Maybe for normies this
is like a really cool thing. But basically all that

(38:23):
happens is you sit in the back and things light
up and you just straight up press the buttons that
light up, and it sucks. And like I think being
a pilot's like the only fun part of being on
that ride. But like if Blizzard was to do the ultimate,
like we're actually going to assign these kicks for you
in any way, it could be they could do it.
There's a ton of ways, but maybe the most easy
to understand is, like your kick actually just straight up

(38:44):
lights up. Is that even fun? You know? Press kick
when light up?

Speaker 3 (38:49):
I don't know, Well, I mean I think it's fun
if it's like, you know, say there's a mom that's
fixating you, Like say you're doing sticks Bunk Junker, right,
and one of the guys is heat seeking you right
with that whatever the mechanics called, Yeah, I.

Speaker 1 (39:03):
Know the way you're talking about. Yeah.

Speaker 3 (39:05):
Yeah. And then if you're one in yeah, if you're
the one in charge of kicking that, you know, it
makes it interesting, like you have to look for your
guy and go and go out of your way and
try to kick it. I think I'm like an interesting mechanic.
And then like another idea I had is instead of
just having one mob cast three of the other the
same ability three times in a row, they could make

(39:25):
these mobs cast different abilities. So like say there's like
a Maje mob that will cast an ice ability and
an arcaneability and a fire ability. That way, it makes
it really easy to assign these types of interrupts. You
just be like I'm there for the key starts. Yeah,
Like like Varro can give arcane kick, I'll get the
frost kick, and then the other person gets the fire kick.
If it might happen at like different intervals, they might

(39:47):
happen at different cast speeds. That makes it like so
much easier than just having to coordinate like who kicks
what and when?

Speaker 2 (39:56):
Yeah.

Speaker 3 (39:56):
And then another idea I had is like what if
you had something similar to a parry type of kick.
So say there's like a boss, it'll do like it'll
say like a wrap and it's gonna do like a
massive downward slam and you have to use your interrupt

(40:16):
exactly when he's about to smash the floor, and it'll
like it'll just blow the guy back. He would just
get like knocked down on the floor and he takes
one hundred percent increased damage for this is like yeah
lost arc or or like you know, like explosion three three,
I mean any parent ever, And then like that way
you can just have like everyone try to use their
interrupt instead of having to coordinate interrupts, you just have

(40:38):
like everyone send their interrupt at the exact right time,
and whoever gets the right timing w for them and
your entire party benefits from it. Like there's so many
ways they can make interrupt way more interesting than rotating
it rotating interrupts on one mob.

Speaker 2 (40:55):
I mean you could you could make that argument for
like a lot of stuff that they've designed in this
game over a long period of time, right, Like like
if you're a tank, Like have you ever heard of
tank that it hasn't had the take of? Like, man,
they could make tank swaps more interesting cause like they're
just true, yeah, so similar forever that it's like, but
it's also like you kind of know what you're expecting,
You're like, then there are games that kind of take

(41:15):
a different take on like what a tank stop is
supposed to be. But but at a certain point, it's
like there's not a lot of options.

Speaker 1 (41:21):
You know, Yeah, they do interesting tank mechanics from time
to time like that, you can tell that's something they
try to cook on in a way where the interrupts
I think are a little bit less, you know, yeah,
cooked on reliably. I think that. I think the main
thing to me is like I wouldn't I just wouldn't
mind as well if interrupts became less of a thing,

(41:41):
like less of a thing that right, because right now
that are very common. Design is there are casters that
spam a sort of medium importance bolt and if you're
playing the game at like a you know, M zero's
or kind of low ish keys, you could just ignore it.
And then you get to high keys and it's like, yeah,
if we let any smite or lightning bolt cast through,
somebody is going to get killed, right, And I think
that I just think that design is not particularly good

(42:04):
and they just stop it.

Speaker 3 (42:06):
Yeah, it's just so tedious. But I mean, I do
think interrupts still have a place in the game. Like
I do find having to use your interrupts or having
to use your ccs to be fun. It's just it's
too much, especially in Dungeon Lake Priory.

Speaker 1 (42:22):
Yeah.

Speaker 3 (42:22):
Have you guys seen that chart of how many stops
are required on average now compared to Legion.

Speaker 1 (42:30):
No, I haven't.

Speaker 2 (42:31):
No, that's a that's a great chart. Let you see that.
This is basically we've been People have just been saying,
like man, stops just keep ramping up out of control.
And if someone actually just made a graph showing exactly
how that was the case over honestly from then until
now linearly, that would be very interesting to see. How
do you determine it?

Speaker 3 (42:50):
What's the I guess just like it. It wasn't warcraft logs,
but yeah, me link this. These are of enemy cast
on average per dungeon and the of interrupts done total,
So interrupts include stops of casts.

Speaker 2 (43:04):
Okay, Oh, it's just it's just Legion in the words.

Speaker 3 (43:10):
Okay, I see, Yeah, I mean I'm sure someone could
like find out I.

Speaker 2 (43:13):
Mean it probably still tells the story. It's just showing
the beginning in the end.

Speaker 3 (43:17):
Yeah, yeah, yeah, Like look at Priory. Yeah, that is
actually insane.

Speaker 1 (43:26):
Yeah, Priory, the number of interrupts you need, even though
the number of casts, because like all the cast are
in dropped by to those smites and fireballs.

Speaker 2 (43:34):
The amount of casts and Priory is almost more than
like all of those without that aren't one hundred combined,
or like four or five dungeons combined. That's crazy.

Speaker 3 (43:46):
Yeah, yeah, look in the Farian's Layer twenty five.

Speaker 2 (43:50):
I think this is like kind of obvious to anyone
who's yea looked at it.

Speaker 3 (43:53):
It is crazy to actually yeah, just like actually visual I.

Speaker 2 (43:57):
Would love to see. Maybe it takes a lot longer
time to do this, but like showing it like season
by season almost I feel like there would It seems
like it's just been increasing over time slightly and maybe
there's been larger jumps and certain expansions and stuff, but
that would be interesting to see like where it started.

Speaker 3 (44:16):
Yeah, because I don't think they should remove interrupts. I
do think interrupts just to be part of the game,
but they should make them fun and interesting.

Speaker 1 (44:23):
M Yeah, I just I'm I just have like lightning
bolt fatigue or holy Smite.

Speaker 3 (44:29):
Fatigue of just oh yeah, it's bad.

Speaker 1 (44:31):
Like the medium importance bolt cast that doesn't kill you
at a low key level, but you have to stop
like all of them at a high key level. That's
the kind of thing I just wish they did.

Speaker 3 (44:38):
It's especially bad and Resilient Keys. Like when we were
just talking about resilient Priory Keys. It's like, bro, all
these teams out here, all these like punkies who are
doing eighteens, they're just trying to do the same shit
they see on stream. We see like Yoda doing this,
or you see like people doing this in MDI, and
so if you're just attempting the same thing, except if
you're not nowhere near on the same level of coordination.
So it's just you go in there, bolts are just

(45:01):
going off left and right. Your heel is just trying
so hard to keep everyone alive, and you're just like
spamming all your defensives trying to live, and it's kind
of like a dice roll whever you get it or not.

Speaker 2 (45:11):
What do we have? Is there anything? Uh?

Speaker 1 (45:13):
Oh, there was my rant video that I watched it
earlier on stream.

Speaker 3 (45:16):
Yeah, yeah, I did.

Speaker 1 (45:17):
I did. I couldn't. I couldn't watch that because I
can't listen to my own voice. I hate listen to
my own voice.

Speaker 2 (45:23):
I don't know if you I know that feeling.

Speaker 1 (45:24):
Yeah, yeah, but uh, what did you think of it?

Speaker 2 (45:28):
I thought it was great.

Speaker 1 (45:31):
That video has been getting so many like like people
message me and be like, hey, can I react to
this or whatever, or there's like messaging me out of
the blue about it.

Speaker 2 (45:38):
It's uh, yeah, it seems so interesting because it's not
it's not something you haven't talked about before, like frequently,
like all the time. It's just you put it in
one video titled it like I'm gonna rant, has a
good opening to or like in the first twenty seconds
it's like, all right, y'all have called me a shill,
So here's all the stuff I don't like in the
game all in one spot. Oh concept, not so prize

(46:00):
it popped off? Did really good?

Speaker 3 (46:02):
Actually speak about the whole shill thing. I thought about
this the other day. It's actually insane. So if you
complained about add ons before, you would have been seen
as a Blizzard hater or like a classic andy or
like you know, an asthmen gold guy or whatever. But nowadays,
if you're like, all right, you know, w Blizzard for

(46:22):
making these changes, now it's like, oh, you're a fucking
Blizzard Hill. Like I can't believe you're wanting to add on.
It's like how of a tide's turd you we go
from a Blizzard hater to all of a sudden you
have a polar opposite. Now you're just a Blizzard Hill
for agreeing with the idea.

Speaker 2 (46:39):
Well, I mean so I mentioned this on reacting to
dratnos as a video that it would be I would
love to see this in YouTube comments too, but to
like see people's true intentions, Like there are people who
could listen to your take on something and be a
very reasonable person and understand nuance and totally think you're
being a Blizzard shill from what you're saying, like with

(46:59):
a valid reason and then seeing that person at the
like you see two people type your Blizzard chill and
the other person and I know these people exist. That
where there if you are not like just slandering blizzards
every fucking move, you are a blizzard chill, Like they
just fucking hate Blizzard and they anything that isn't just

(47:20):
directly like almost antagonistic towards them is just like, bro,
you're a fucking chill, Like how can you not believe this?
You know? And and you can't tell the difference between
those two people you know and people who are gonna yeah,
the whole add on thing. But also it's like understanding
what add ons you on gone? Like the ad the
Asthman crew is like, you know, we don't play Wow anymore,
so we won't see the immedia downside of this, So

(47:41):
cool with me, but just remove all this shit because
I am you know, I'm not gonna get the immediate downside.
But they just need to get rid of all this
shit now and eventually the game will be good. And
in the meantime, we're all just like that means the
game's gonna immediately be worse for all of us, but
they don't. That doesn't matter if you're not playing right,
but maybe you'll play one day. I doubt it if
they make all these changes, but they were referring to

(48:02):
every add on. I think the take that we've kind
of had for a while is like getting rid of
all these add ons will make the game a lot worse,
But you know, removing the in fight stuff would be
something we all agree with, right, That's not the take
from the people who are calling you a shill. Now.
They kind of just want all of them gone because
this is what's made the game that I used to
love bad.

Speaker 3 (48:21):
Well, so from what I've been seeing is a lot
of people who are like super vehemon about this whole
ad on deletion thing is the people who really love
having stuff like omni CD and you know, just having
perfect information is what I've been calling it, because a
lot of people are just they're too used to playing

(48:44):
the game with perfect information, Like they want to be
able to see who've cast is on right, you know,
like the whole target of target we goora that it's
going around and them plus or omni CD, like they
wanted to be able to see who has interrupts, who
has offensives, et cetera. We want to see like when
exactly a certain mechanic is coming out, if we want
to see all these different things of that they don't

(49:07):
necessarily need to see.

Speaker 2 (49:11):
Yeah, but and and part of that I understand, because
what you're asking them to do is to give faith that, yes,
it is nice seeing this stuff, but you it's nice
seeing it because that's what the content requires of you.
But clearly there's been this arms race thing and you
just have to expect that the content is going to
be different if we don't have access to all these tools.

(49:31):
And yeah, that's just saying Blizzard's going to do this well,
and it's I think you'd be pretty you don't have
to be It's not unreasonable to say that you think
that wouldn't happen, at least initially, So I totally get it.

Speaker 3 (49:43):
I mean articles just also be like people just end
up doing lower level content and it's not y in
the world.

Speaker 1 (49:50):
Yeah, I mean obviously, like if the you know, key
level goes down from one season to another, like who pairs, right,
we only kind of measure ourselves relative to well.

Speaker 3 (49:58):
But I mean relatively some players are also going to
be affected, right, Like the whole Pug players versus between you,
if you are a player straight up is just going
to have a rougher time than something.

Speaker 1 (50:10):
So okay, you tell me an average PUG player versus
somebody in a high end group, which person's making better
use of of you know, tracking.

Speaker 3 (50:18):
Out on Yeah I would Yeah, Okay, I have to
think about that of it.

Speaker 1 (50:23):
You might be right, Curries, It depends, right, It depends
on the specific one that you're talking about. But there's
a lot of like the best uses of weakoras that are.
You know, it's like Miras comes up with this nonsense
and you know.

Speaker 3 (50:35):
No, yeah, yeah, because like to be fair, like if
you have someone likeing and your team and he's calling
literally every kick and stop perfectly, that's kind of more
opie than if you're just some pug player who can
see if kicks or stops are available.

Speaker 2 (50:48):
Yeah. Yeah, I mean it's definitely if done right, them
making the content a little easier and then reducing all
the crazy amount of information should lower the vast gap
between the most like high key pushing player and the
casual think I think.

Speaker 1 (51:07):
You were spot on Max though about like there's sort
of this element of like should this be something that
you do in your head versus something that like the
you know, a game or a week or thing does
for you, right, And like where should the difficulty come from?
Like should the hard part of wow be knowing that
you need frost resist gear and like knowing how to
farm it? Should the hard part of wow be knowing

(51:27):
when your cool downs are up even though they're down
in the bottom left of your screen, and knowing what
buffs are on your character even though they're up in
the top right of your screen. Should the hard part
of wow be like knowing when a mob is about
to cast a fireball that it's got off CD. And
my answer for those is like, well, for some of those,
like I think knowing when a mob's fireball is off

(51:49):
CD you should do in your head. And I think
that the weak or as we have that put that
on their name player making the game worse. But should
I know when my icy veins is up by looking
down on the bottom left of my screen and knowing
when I have a PROC by looking at the top
right of my scare? No, I want that in the
middle of my screen. So I'm an enlightened centrist on
the kind of poor philosophy there. But there are definitely
people on the extremes on both ends. And then there's,
of course, when we talk about the hate. The shill

(52:11):
thing is remember what we did our worst and Best
Guys episode? Oh yeah, yeah, Fearless, And there's like hating
Harry and Glazing Garry or whatever their names were that
are just always person who's always pro Blizzard and allays
anti Blizzard, and like those people also are getting involved
in this conversation just making short term temporary allies because they.

Speaker 2 (52:31):
Yeah, it fits their narrative.

Speaker 1 (52:32):
Yeah, exactly, Dude.

Speaker 2 (52:33):
When I think of like, oh, they shouldn't get rid
of this because it's like a skill thing that remember,
that reminds me of fester mite. Like I remember seeing
a very small amount of people when they changed fester
mite from being just the most annoying thing ever to
deal with. They would be like, dude, I hate that
they changed this because you could outplay people by like
making sure your things started at the right time. It's like, yeah,
that's that's true, but also it fucking sucked, like even

(52:56):
if you were doing it right, it was terrible, Like
it was so not fun.

Speaker 5 (53:00):
Same as dots right back in modes, snapshotting dots, I
don't know, well, snaphnut well, snapshotting dots was like a
fun gameplay loop like the the I'm not talking like
all things you can use to outplay someone being I
just mean, like fester mighte.

Speaker 2 (53:14):
Specifically, the way to outplay someone a lot of times
was like put your pet on passive at the end
of a poll or like literally afk so you didn't
pop those last remaining things, or or not pressing any buttons,
you know, or not generating any wounds because then they
would pop when they died, and it was like the
gameplay was like you had to like not play your character,
which was terrible.

Speaker 3 (53:32):
Well, but wasn't that kind of the same with snap slosh.
I mean, so I didn't play the mop, but I
assumed it was similar where you'd like not want to
re you you would not want to pandemic your dot
if it was an empowered one, right because of like
your trinket, PROCs or whatever it might be.

Speaker 2 (53:46):
I mean, I can tell I did both of those things,
and fester mite made you want made me want to
pull my hair out, and snapshotting dots during that time
where you're not refreshing it, you don't feel bad because,
I mean, this is why they made the change, because
obviously some people did want to like just pandemic your
dot as part as your rotation. But if you knew
that that dot was hitting crazy hard because it was
snapshotted with like two trinkets and lust or something like,

(54:08):
you would gain satisfaction in knowing that information and actually
completing it. But that's that's not af king. You're pressing
another button. You know, you're not having to like and
obviously subjective, but I feel like you're swapping in legion.
I haven't thought about that in a while. I remember
thinking at the time that that was like fun because

(54:29):
it like enabled you to do things you otherwise couldn't do.
But it was so basic that you just basically just
had macros where you changed between the exact same sets
of gear for bosses and for trash, And that was
also something that was super like not super fun to
do and set up, and also like lower level players
were definitely not doing it, so it was just kind
of an easy Blizzard slam dunk to be like, here's

(54:50):
a way for us to lower the massive difference between
the top and bottom. I think I supported that decision.
At the time, I think I was like, that's lame,
But I think now in hindsight, I think that was
probably a good thing.

Speaker 3 (55:01):
What do you think I would have let It would
have been messy as hell, like just having to carry
around a bunch of different gear nowadays, and it would
be impossible about.

Speaker 2 (55:07):
It and we weren't even optimal then, Like we were
like looking back at Legion, like we had actually no
idea how to optimize, and now that we do, I
feel like that would have.

Speaker 3 (55:14):
Gotten Yeah, imagine the weakors and like add ons that
people would have for like perfectly swapping your gear it
was insanely.

Speaker 2 (55:20):
That would be insane.

Speaker 1 (55:21):
Yeah, it would be. It would get kind of ugly.
It even got a little ugly if you were Superman
maximated Legion. But you know, not a lot of people
were like you know, swapping in and out between ao
wee gear sets and single target like trinkets and stuff,
swapping a different on use trinket for each pole or
whatever that oh that I.

Speaker 3 (55:39):
Had, Like I had like speed set of voidance sets.

Speaker 2 (55:41):
Yeah, dude, I even think double on use is insanely
cringe just in general, Like, have you guys ever played
a class where you use a like thirty second duration,
uh like on use drink it, and then twenty seconds
later you use another ten second one and then for
exactly ten seconds twenty seconds after you pop your first
drink it. You're doing crazy damn with all of your
cool downs. That is one of those things where the

(56:04):
actual gameplay of that is fucking shit. It's so bad.

Speaker 3 (56:07):
Okay, but what about fonts of power double on use.
I feel like that was cool.

Speaker 2 (56:11):
I think that's exactly what I'm describing, right, Yeah, I
think like the alternative of double on use is in
font of Power was like a really long duration one
you would use a second later.

Speaker 3 (56:23):
Yeah. Yeah, okay, so I thought you were talking about
like like using using a number one for different The
quality of.

Speaker 1 (56:29):
Life on font of Power was at least kind of
good because it was like a four second channel and
then a thirty second buff and it was at least like,
I don't know, at least felt kind of playable to me.

Speaker 2 (56:40):
But it was just op.

Speaker 1 (56:41):
Yeah, exactly.

Speaker 2 (56:42):
It was one of the things so you're remembering something
in your mind where it's like, man, that was OP.
I liked. I liked this thing that I had on
my character when I was really strong. But I don't know,
I just feel like if you're playing with a passive
trinket in and on use and you just have the
on use be simple to understand, I just feel like
that's so much more enjoyable than having to manage. Like
there's never been a time where I think double one
use has been like actually fun to play outside of

(57:03):
it being strong.

Speaker 1 (57:05):
Yeah, I think that's I think that's it. Like the
people remember font of Power fondly because it was so
o p but it was it was not actually that
fun of a gameplay except for the fact that you
did it right, you would do the most damage anybody's
ever done.

Speaker 2 (57:18):
Well, think about it, like a what was that fucking
trinket at the beginning of Dragonflight the puzzle box?

Speaker 1 (57:23):
Oh yeah, people hated.

Speaker 2 (57:24):
Puzzy b and it was isn't it literally fond of Power?
You like, do a cast and then you get you
get an extra bet.

Speaker 3 (57:32):
You didn't do a cast, you just pressed it.

Speaker 1 (57:33):
But it was insanely it was like a three second
chanel right to solve the puzzle.

Speaker 2 (57:37):
Yeah, it was.

Speaker 3 (57:38):
It was like, oh no, no, you just pressed it.

Speaker 2 (57:41):
Ain't no way right, I'm pretty sure puzzle box are.

Speaker 3 (57:44):
You talking about? Uh wait, actually, which one are we
talking about? Oh no, I'm thinking about inscrutable quantum device or.

Speaker 2 (57:52):
Like QD was flawed for other reasons, but no, I
mean specifically a puzzle box because like people were like, dude,
I fucking hate the puzzle boxes. Biss for me, and
it's like, well, it's a bit just because it gives
you a ton of stats because of the cast. If
it didn't have a cast and it was just instant,
it would obviously that's less punishing, so you would just
get less secondary stats. And also everyone loves font of Power,
but I'm pretty sure font of Power is even worse

(58:14):
than that, because if you like canceled the channel, weren't
you like brick or something, I didn't know exactly how
it worked.

Speaker 3 (58:18):
They like didn't stack up all the way or yeah not,
I mean you just sped didn't get it either, Yeah.

Speaker 2 (58:23):
Yes, well I think you've got like a lesser version
of it was didn't last as longer, it wasn't as powerful. Basically,
every like tick of the channel was like you gain
more things from me, so you are, but it goes
on cool down, right, so you are fucked if you
cancel it early. Where like puzzle Box, if you like
stop the cast, you can just at least cast it
again and get the full benefit. Not to say that
onen't suck, but it sucks have as bad. But the
view on one versus the other is totally different, and

(58:44):
it's just because you were super crazy OP and you
loved playing BFA season four. That Font of Power is
is good and puzzle Box is bad.

Speaker 3 (58:53):
Okay, since we're on this topic, what about Ruin of Power.
I know may just fun hate that.

Speaker 2 (59:00):
But I don't play Mage, so I don't feel qualified
to comment on it. You know that is fair, just
straight up.

Speaker 1 (59:08):
Yeah, I wasn't a fan when I played Mage, playing
like when I played font of Power or Root of
Power on Mage. I know there were people that liked it. Again,
it was one of those thing where it's, yeah, if
you do this, you got more damage, but it's like,
I don't know, it was annoying to.

Speaker 3 (59:23):
Play about momentum.

Speaker 2 (59:28):
I like, absolutely loved it. And the best part about
momentum is if you didn't want to do it, you
had you had a viable, very easy, non movement based
alternative the whole time that momentum was good, whether it
was Inertia all the way back in Legion with momentum
uh like as opposed to like Breath of Syndrogrosa right

(59:50):
where anytime breadth of center gross has been OP. If
you just didn't like that play style, you just sucked.
You just you couldn't play anything else, it wasn't viable. Really,
That's how I feel about that. Vent thor Boomkin, I

(01:00:10):
just or I guess ashen Hollow the same expansion kind of,
it's literally same covenant kind of. I just think Blizzard
can't make super long cool downs that are actually as
powerful as they need to be at that cool down length.
Like if you make a four minute cool down, it
needs to be I guess easy math would be twice

(01:00:30):
as good as a two minute cool down, right, it
takes you it's twice or twice the cool down length.
So but then, like I would say, that's pretty close
to like what ashon Hollow was. If you look at
if you look at a three minute cool down like
vent ther Muonkin incarn, was it fifty percent more powerful
than like a really really good two minute Definitely, yeah,

(01:00:52):
like maybe maybe more, But I would say I'd say
it's pretty close to that, like fifty percent better, which
is crazy, right, that's a huge number. But the thing
is it's just too impactful. It's just you can't like
it for its actually, Like for example, Meta for a
Long Time was a four minute cool down, but it
wasn't like a four minute cool down it like it
was a two minute cool down that just had too
long of a cool down for some reason. But for

(01:01:13):
them to actually make a cool down that was strong
enough to warrant it having a real three minute or
form minute cool down, which was those two scenarios, it
just defined everything. When you have something that powerful, it
can enable poles of mythic plus that were not possible
without either of those two things. Were one of them
in Raid, you stopped DPS the entire tier of sanctone
domination because you were waiting for fucking mooncincids to come up,

(01:01:36):
right like, because this thing existed, ashtonhallow the exact same
effect to So, I don't know. I think it's just
there's a reason that everything is one, one and a
half or two minutes now because I think truly making
a correctly powerful three and four minute it is just
too good for the game, Like it's too good, dude.

Speaker 3 (01:01:55):
Not gonna lie even two minutes feel almost dog should
now with how prevalence forty five times in the mid
and a halfs are like the current metacomp, you have
a bumkin with one and a half or whatever it was,
and you have nine yea on Holy yeah.

Speaker 1 (01:02:12):
On arcades on like forty five and ninety, but they
also have shifting power in extric By the way, shifting
power put that on the list of annoying gameplay. I
wish would go away shifting power.

Speaker 2 (01:02:21):
Oh really, we're all non mage players, but is that do?
Is that a Mage take? Like majors don't like shifting power.

Speaker 1 (01:02:26):
I hate it on Arcade. I don't mind it on
on Fire, but I don't like pressing it on arc
and it's just so annoying.

Speaker 3 (01:02:32):
I like what it does for utility as a non
Mage because, like you know, I like when majors can
come up with creative, creative ways to shift their kickback
or shift their supernova and blast wave.

Speaker 2 (01:02:46):
That makes sense.

Speaker 3 (01:02:47):
Yeah, so that's kind of that's kind of like a
cool little part of Mage. But yeah, like right now,
if you're playing with a two minute class like a shaman,
an Ali shaman or enhancement shaman, when you're just like
all blowing your load on a pack, the next pull
just lives forever because Vashama is just not gonna have
any cool downs, whereas if you have like a on
Holy DK or Mage, like, they have cool downs. So

(01:03:09):
it's kind of become a problem where you just you're
so frontloaded on damage.

Speaker 2 (01:03:13):
I mean the problem with that is just again abilities
or cool downs, not having an accurate power level for
how shorter long of a CD they have, right, Like,
like if someone's able to go every pack because all
of their damage happens every forty seconds and yours only
happens every two minutes, the very basic level thinking would
result in you saying that your two minutes should you
should burst way fucking higher than they can with their

(01:03:36):
forty seconds. But that's also just I think it's just
a lost cause. In a game with forty specs, it's
just that that actually aren't homogenized and play differently, you're
just gonna have shit like that happen.

Speaker 1 (01:03:46):
Well, because posters kind of moved away from there being
specs that aren't based on their CDs, right, Like, I
guess there's sort of outlaw, But it used to be
that like half the specs in the game were like, yeah,
you know, I'm like, I'm a Frost ma age. I'm
always a nice veins unless I screw up, my damage
is flat, right, And now it's just like, yeah, every
spec we took Frost Major and we changed icy veins
and now it's a regular CD again, right, and just

(01:04:07):
every spec is like, yep, I have my CD. It
makes me do two point five times as much damage
as when I'm not having it up, and you know,
my entire life is about my CD.

Speaker 2 (01:04:17):
Yeah, so you're saying they have homogenized it, and yeah.

Speaker 1 (01:04:19):
They homogenized it down except for except for the length,
like except for the exact multiplier of the CD, which
does change, just like that's just random balanced fluctuations often
changing that. And then also the timer of it, whether
it is forty five ninety two minutes. But even even
besides that, like they got rid of a lot of
the It used to be a lot more three minutes

(01:04:39):
in the game and those are all gone now pretty much. Yeah,
it's weird.

Speaker 3 (01:04:44):
Yeah, but also I guess why they're Yeah.

Speaker 2 (01:04:47):
I mean I understand why they got rid of three minutes.

Speaker 3 (01:04:49):
Yeah, I mean it didn't feel good.

Speaker 2 (01:04:52):
That was the commelesson about peries. Yeah, like everyone everyone, bro,
if you had a three minute cool down, you were
complaining about this game one like you were just like
to everyone that I know, rotates everything based on three
minute cool downs, And you're right, that does happen, you know, so,
like I totally understand the uh, the aversion to that,
it'd be super annoying.

Speaker 3 (01:05:12):
So nother question, are there any dps that actually don't
really do damage outside of cool downs anymore? I feel
like almost every DPS nowadays just kind of does damage always.

Speaker 2 (01:05:26):
Uh, like the old uh archetype of like the moon Can,
Like the vent through moon Can is probably the most
extreme example of this, right where they do all their Oh,
sub isn't it Subroge. I'm pretty sure sub Rogue is
like their damage.

Speaker 3 (01:05:39):
At least pretty sort of cool down sit right, we
have like I don't even know what they have now if.

Speaker 1 (01:05:45):
They have like a thirty second and also a two
minute or something.

Speaker 2 (01:05:49):
So I just remember in a recent raid, we were
trying to like figure out rogue CDs, and like we
looked at damage for Rogue outside of their rogue Rogue
is doing good overall damage on the fight, Like outside
of their cool downs, they were just literally getting beaten
by tanks. And I don't know what spec it was exactly,
but that's like the only speck in the game that
was true for at least for viable race FECs.

Speaker 3 (01:06:12):
Yeah, longtime I was fire image too, Like outside of
the combust, you were doing actual tank damage.

Speaker 2 (01:06:16):
But aren't they in combusted like all the time now,
isn't that the thing?

Speaker 3 (01:06:18):
Yeah? Now they're always in combust?

Speaker 1 (01:06:20):
Yeah, uh mm, feels pretty bad outside of CDs, Like
three shots are really big multiplier. But I don't know,
it depends on It depends on what you mean, right,
because like from my perspective, every CD feels big, and
I on all my classes, I feel like I'm doing
low damage outside of my CDs. But it depends on
what you count as, like what how much what not
to multiplier on your damage? Would you have to have

(01:06:42):
to have it not count.

Speaker 3 (01:06:44):
Well because like normally well not not in m really.
But I guess back in the days, if I was
playing tank, I would be beating DPS in damage if
they didn't have cool downs, especially if you're playing something
like Paladin. If you just like opened a pack with
wings the vine Toel, you were for sure beating DPS
damage unless Bee worrying for downs.

Speaker 1 (01:07:05):
Yeah, I guess I guess by that content, I mean,
the thing is like I don't think there are specs
you're gonna beat as a tank, but I think that's
mostly just because like everybody has like little things, right,
Like you have like your thirty or forty five second
CDs that you at least get to press on every
pole even if you don't have your main CD. Em
Hunter is maybe the best example. Well no, because em
Hunter even as a volley, right, but like, uh, if

(01:07:28):
you don't, if you have it, if you do a
poll without true shot, you are doing a lot less damage,
which does happen. But that's also like a ninety second er,
so it's up most polls.

Speaker 2 (01:07:35):
Yeah, any Patreon questions good comms.

Speaker 1 (01:07:44):
Don't think Frock gave us one?

Speaker 2 (01:07:46):
Dude, no shot, no way?

Speaker 1 (01:07:49):
Oh my god, an.

Speaker 2 (01:07:52):
You away see you awake?

Speaker 1 (01:07:54):
Got us Patreon Q per chance.

Speaker 2 (01:07:58):
Ooh good use of per chance?

Speaker 1 (01:08:00):
Yeah, I've been I've been farming perchance. Uses you guys
played Alden Ring.

Speaker 2 (01:08:04):
Night Rain ooh uh no. I asked my stream about
it today though, and the vibe I'm getting and why
the people I've talked to you they have played it
said they had a lot of fun with their friends.
But it's getting really mixed reviews. It just seems like
it's a game that is fun to play with your
friends and sucks to play alone, which.

Speaker 3 (01:08:23):
Makes her too. It's not a friendly game.

Speaker 1 (01:08:26):
I've I've played fourteen hours. I think I've done with
my friend, like with Guilties, and we've done all the bosses,
and like the game, I know the game is pretty easy,
but also like we're you know, experienced soul zy players.
I'm the least. I was the worst of my group,
and it still felt pretty easy to me. But it
definitely it's like weird for a roguelke because they kind
of front load the variety, which is super strange, Like okay,

(01:08:50):
so elder Ring Night Rain spoilers, but you get like
the map changes in a couple of different cool ways,
but it like really frontloads that into your first like
your first twenty runs or whatever, you'll see all of
those variations and it's sweet and cool, and then like
after that, you'll get one in your next like thirty runs.
You'll play one time with a different map, and you

(01:09:11):
very quickly learn like the things that are ope to
do on each map and or not on each map,
but like in the map, the one map that there
is with the couple variations that can have those first times,
and like, I don't know, it's it's strange. It's like
a it's like a roguelike where the emphasis on replayability
is gone. There's not like a way to make it harder.

(01:09:31):
After you've beaten it once once, it feels easy. But
also there's not like stunt it makes your guy super op.
It's weird, but it was fun weird. I just I
don't think i've played anymore. Like I played it for
fourteen hours and I had a lot of fun, and
now I don't want to play anymore. And that's I've
basically never said that i'bout a rogue like before. Like
most roguelikes, I either play for two hours and then
I'm like, okay this, I've had enough of this. This

(01:09:52):
is cool or whatever, but I'm out of here, or
I want to play it for like hundreds of hours,
you know, because like the replayability part getting a different run,
but the care are so locked into wanting a specific
type of weapon each as well that you don't really
get like you you don't get that thing where you're
starting to slay the spier run and you're like, oh,
what kind of deck am I going to have this time?
It's instead just.

Speaker 2 (01:10:10):
Like oh really, because that's you need that. That's that's
the yeah thing that makes it okay.

Speaker 1 (01:10:14):
Because like I I've been, I was playing like the
bow character because that guy's really good, and it's just like, yeah,
I'm going to take a shitty bow over a good
anything else because I'm the bow guy. Bows are you know?
But my thing is all built around Okay. Yeah, I
don't know. I would still recommend it though, if you
just you definitely got to get a squad.

Speaker 2 (01:10:32):
I I don't think this will really affect from Soft though,
Like I feel like Frumsoft has just an unassailable reputation
with gamers that they're even if you consider this game
of flop or was mid for you for whatever reason.
I still think like if they came out with the
next major release, Soul's game, yeah, like this, this would

(01:10:54):
not affect that ever people are playing that still no
matter what.

Speaker 3 (01:10:57):
I mean, isn't this geme like insanely successful for just
a spin off?

Speaker 1 (01:11:01):
Yeah, I mean in terms of sales.

Speaker 2 (01:11:03):
I think probably in terms of sales, and I watched
and they are still did well on Twitch earlier, Like
I think it's been a day or two since released,
but they I would say public opinion wise of the game.
I don't I don't think that's true. Like I don't
think that it's been like majorly positive. It seems I mean,
most Souls players are probably solo players.

Speaker 3 (01:11:22):
Right, and it seems like, yeah, like this is like
a departure from what they're Yeah, it's kind of a Plunderstorm.

Speaker 2 (01:11:29):
That exact same comparison with my stream earlier.

Speaker 1 (01:11:32):
Yeah, it's kind of it is kind of like plunder
It is definitely weird that, like it's got that kind
of classic Thrumsoft thing of it's sort of like Apple
used to do this where they just basically didn't think
about what people said they wanted or and they just
kind of made their own thing based off of what
Steve Jobs thought would be good and he was usually right,
and Frumsoft's like also usually right. But it leads to

(01:11:54):
the product feeling very different than you know, anything that UBI,
Softer EA or whatever would put out after focus group
tests it a bunch of times, and you know, trying
to make something that the people want. But yeah, I
I do recommend it. I think that given that it's
a follow up to elden Ring, which was such a
great game, it's definitely worse than elden Ring, Like, it's
definitely gonna have a smaller impact than elden Ring. But

(01:12:15):
if you just if you don't go into it looking
for it to be something that is not, I think
you can have a lot of fun. I would say
only play with friends. They're maybe patching it to make
the solo experience better, but I've heard the solo experience
is quite bad. Right now, Okay, we did get a
Patreon question, so we can maneuver over to that. Now, Okay,

(01:12:37):
this one's from Civilian rape Leader. It says, dear pod men,
hope you were all healthy and happy in these current times.
How do I get my guild to focus the fuck up?
The main call is just a focus on calling. Let
me tell you, is you say focus up immediately, everybody's
gonna lock it. And that's been my experience.

Speaker 2 (01:12:53):
Focus the fuck up?

Speaker 3 (01:12:55):
Yeah, from telling you it's a resilient problem.

Speaker 1 (01:12:59):
So what I mean is when you're near killing a boss,
a big boss seventh or later, and you're finally navigating
through that last thirty or forty five seconds or ten
percent of the boss, what strategies or types of calls
kind of raid leader mates, get everyone focused, aware of
what's about to happen, and support the raid and executing
something they may have never seen before. How important is
the demeanor or tone of these calls in these clutch moments?
The famous just play the game for a final fifteen

(01:13:20):
percent on Gallowick's unfortunately doesn't work for us rank one thousand,
cutting edges Apes just wants a zugzug? What's the best
way to practice making these kind of calls? And then
there's more stuff, But let's well, let's start with that. Well,
I think Galliwicks is like an exception because like that call.

Speaker 2 (01:13:33):
We literally didn't know. Yeah, Like so the difference between
what he said like world one thousand or whatever, like
you guys actually know or it could know what happens
in the last fifteen percent and make accurate calls. I
we literally had no idea what happens after that point.
So the call of just play the game was there
was no week. We couldn't do anything else. All you

(01:13:53):
can do is just play the game and try to
outplay whatever happens.

Speaker 1 (01:13:55):
You know.

Speaker 2 (01:13:57):
But I think so you said, does the tone matter?
Like if you're a cove, you're trying the only point
of raid leading is to be like an extra little
week or on someone's screen in their ear, telling them
and making them more aware of what's about to happen.
And I can promise you if you're like really frantic,
you know, like like uh, this is happening, you know,
like that's gonna get a totally different response from your

(01:14:19):
players than acting like you know what's about to happen,
or like being really confident. Like it gets hard to
maybe be confident if you're not you're like actually not
really confident about what you're saying. But yeah, you gotta
be cool conflicted, and you have to sound like you
know you're talking about so people actually trust that information.
It's kind of like like, for example, if you sound unsure,

(01:14:41):
you are no longer serving a purpose. The purpose of
a raid leader is too like I trust this person
is saying and they're telling me something, so I can
rely on them saying it and then I can focus
more on what I'm doing. But if you are sounding
unsure of yourself, even people are now questioning that in
their heads and they're like, okay, well I can't rely
on this information to maybe save me and not die.

(01:15:02):
I now have to focus on this thing myself, and
then then you're just talking for no reason, right, You're
not doing anything for most players probably, So yeah, be confident,
be prepared. Like if your guild knows you know what's up,
and you're getting to a part of a fight you
haven't seen before, you're raid leading late in a fight,
and you're just confidently telling them what's gonna happen next,
they're all gonna play so much fucking better. It's insane.
They're gonna be so much better if they know they

(01:15:25):
can trust you at that.

Speaker 1 (01:15:26):
Yeah, it's really hard if you're playing and not twenty
first thing to actually be able to execute this at
the end of a hard boss fight. But like if
you can try and memorize the calls of like okay,
move to diamond, you know the target, go to triangle
or whatever, those those kinds of things that you just
like learn that script for the end because you can
just watch the video and like see how the fight
ends and then do that. But yeah, it's really hard,

(01:15:48):
Like I would say, just like if you need to,
you might need to see the end of the fight
a couple times as well before you can call it. Well,
like that's if you're especially if you're playing and not
twenty first thing, there's a smit to human capabilities.

Speaker 2 (01:16:01):
You're progressing just like they are, right, Yeah, it's reasonable
to expect that your calls would get better. Also, one
thing that has become a phenomenon, and while rating that
exists now since I stopped playing, was the like note
system and note week ras to like just tell you
kind of what the fuck's going on if you can
get that going. As a raid leader, what I would
do is like, look at a time in the fight

(01:16:23):
where you're going to be moving to diamond and literally
put a text weeek Aura on your thing that says
move to diamond. And what that's going to tell you
to do is just say that, right, And so you're
kind of like hard pro using that tool to program
your calls on a phase you have it because if
you've seen that phase enough, you're gonna know to do that.
But you could have helped everyone else play better, maybe

(01:16:43):
at the sacrifice of yourself a few polls earlier, by
you know, putting in that kind of preparation towards what
you're doing.

Speaker 3 (01:16:50):
From my experience, the closer your are to would kill
the worse it gets because when the DPS players smell
the kill in their sites, they will start playing agreed
for damage because it's it's like, all right, Ben, this
is now. Now it's time for me to actually start
enabling my parsing. Yeah, degeneracy, Like I don't think.

Speaker 2 (01:17:14):
I've ever experienced this.

Speaker 1 (01:17:16):
This is like I haven't experienced this, but I have
experienced the everybody's quiet for the first six minutes of
the boss fight and in the last two minutes when
they realize it's to kill, like or you're you're you
could kill it and people start piping up that weren't
ye drack kill. It's like silence for six minutes, and
then at the end, like everybody's trying to make a

(01:17:36):
call about what we're doing here with these last seeds, right,
and yeah.

Speaker 2 (01:17:39):
Did we have one player? We had one player? Fucking
Podra would do this, did you just be He had
good input all of progression, but just randomly would get
to a last phase and he would just start fucking
just machine gun calling everything. It's just like what are
you why? Why are you doing this? Because it makes
it hard harder for you to play as well, because
you're having to like think about all that stuff. It's

(01:18:00):
just people getting excited and panicking. But yeah, that is
that I'm familiar with the drat nose one that that happened.

Speaker 3 (01:18:05):
That's a plague. That's actually funny. That happened literally the
other day when I was doing our friend raid. We
were doing Muggsy and uh, we got to the last
phase of the mind's running around and so people just
start yelling like like with the mind the minds, like
what are the minds? And the person who was raid

(01:18:25):
leading was just like like just calmed down, like stop talking,
like we I understand the viror the minds, but like
everyone was just going on the top of the fucking minds.

Speaker 2 (01:18:35):
So true.

Speaker 1 (01:18:35):
Yeah, So I think that the takeaway is like, yeah,
if you are the raid leader, you need to keep
the call calm uh and you can preempt that by
ten seconds before saying like okay, you know we're gonna
pop the minds. This person's gonna pop the minds or
kite these minds, whatever your strategy is, you know, you
call it out as before or as it's happening. And yeah,

(01:18:57):
like Max said, if you if the last you know
minute of the fight, you put liquid reminders for or
MRT reminders, whatever you have to tell you what to
do in the last minute, that's going to save you
some PROG time. Okay, the question I also has a
part two sort of which.

Speaker 3 (01:19:11):
Is okay, so I say something too, So I will say.
One thing that RAID leaders do that I'm like a
fan of and something that I also do when it
comes to MDI stuff is when you bring up how
good the progression is going, like if you're positiively reinforcing

(01:19:32):
like no uniontic, like if because like a lot of
players don't know how the progression is going. Like so
if you're if you got a boss to say, like,
you know, five percent lower than what guilds we're killing
it at, then you're like, guys, like we're so far
ahead right now, we're literally we can kill its literally
the next poll. It's it's that close to a kill
or like you know, if in DF I'm like, we're

(01:19:54):
in an insane split right now, we're like thirty seconds
faster than our previous split, like this key's going insanely Well,
then that gets people to really lock into.

Speaker 1 (01:20:05):
I know there are some people that will have then
like that get it, Yeah, exactly, they can start getting
in their own head yea, and out of the zone
if you do that, So you gotta you gotta know
your raiders and know whether you have anybody like that
in there too.

Speaker 2 (01:20:18):
That's funny, the anti lock in the fucking like I'm
I'm super stressed out. I've seen it.

Speaker 1 (01:20:24):
Yeah, Okay, there's a part two. Finally, if you each
have any further anecdotes on epic calls that killed bosses
or that got that big key done, I'd love to
hear about it. Any memorable. I think that the just
play the game called on Gallowick is definitely a good one.

Speaker 2 (01:20:40):
The best one I ever did was on Stone Legion.
Like we we we two shot the last phase. The
first time we got into the last phase, we had
some some like ninja raid leading, like people just started
raid leading out of nowhere, and it was so hectic
and confusing, and we instantly died. And then the second
phase just due to all of Stone Legion progression just
memory rising the actual cast sequence, Like we just got

(01:21:03):
into the last phase and there was just five abilities
that could be cast, and I just fucking told people
exactly what was going to happen for the next twenty
five seconds and we killed it on that poll, and
I feel and no, I think it took most most
other girls, other girls in the race world first, like
five or six times in that phase to kill it.
And I think I like had like a massive impact
from specifically calls, but only due to a fight being
made so poorly that you would have to memorize exactly

(01:21:26):
what was going to happen because there are five things
off of cool down randomly, which wasn't the case last poll,
and you have to know what priority system they will
cast them in.

Speaker 1 (01:21:37):
Dorky, do you have any either M plus or RAID
calls you remember?

Speaker 3 (01:21:41):
Maybe don't make raide calls, so it'd probably be like
M plus calls. I mean, I don't really remember my
mplus calls because I always say some stupid shit usually,
but yeah, I guess, like the most memorable one when
we were going against Echo in a cup finals and
that was when we beat them back in channel lanes.
Like I just remember being dumbfounded because like I just

(01:22:04):
remember Echo wiping them, like guys, they actually wipe, so
we actually win this. It was a day all of
toeman and I remember telling grow like like, well, honestly,
I didn't say, tell graw. I was just telling our
team like, as long as we don't die here, we'll
be fine. And the very next minute, grou fucking gets
hit by a statue and halls of a home of
the last pause.

Speaker 2 (01:22:23):
Maybe grouse one of those players, because like the thing
is is like for some people, it's like, dude, all
they have to do is focus on my survival and
then we're good, and that makes this game easier for me.
For other people who like don't really compartmentalize exactly how
they're playing the game, they just like kind of fucking game.
It just makes them start thinking differently than they normally do.
They're like, okay, it's to be super safe. But then
like it turns out like sometimes on on a poll,

(01:22:44):
the best defense is a good offense, which is just
fucking killing them before they can do anything to you.
So like that can like you can approach a pole
a different way than you would normally because of that call,
or just in general make people nervous people. I remember,
especially my first couple of MBI weekends, I was nervous
wreck the whole time, Like so fucking nervous. So like
something like that could uh potentially said at the right

(01:23:09):
time to the wrong person.

Speaker 3 (01:23:11):
No, yeah, that's exactly what happened to grow Yeah he
uh he it got to his.

Speaker 1 (01:23:17):
Head for sure.

Speaker 2 (01:23:18):
Yeah.

Speaker 3 (01:23:18):
But aside from that, I do remember just like whenever
we uh won against Echo, I was like I was like, wait,
we fucking won, dude, what the fuck do these guys do?
Like how stupid are we? I just remember saying something
about I was just talking bad shit about Echo. Was like,
I just because like I remember having like a terrible
run in somehow he won, so it was like what

(01:23:39):
the fuck are they doing? That type of situation. But
also from.

Speaker 1 (01:23:46):
Mine's also from Shadowlands, Uh it was it was Payne
Smith because so I don't really make like the big
overall raid calls, but I'll do like tank stuff and
sometimes I'll take over if there needs to be like
improvisation and he has paint Smith. There was like four
people would drop minds that you needed to pop, sort
of like the Sprocket pops where you did you had

(01:24:07):
to stagger them out, but you did that. It was
just one player. In fact, I think a tank had
to do them and you would put them near the
boss and then the tank would pop all of them,
but somebody who was targeted to drop one died and
it just spawned their trap on the other side of
the room, and so the spikes auto pop them as
they come in, and I was like on the other
side of the room doing a different tank fall off

(01:24:28):
mechanic running back, and so I like, I remember like
the matrix opened up in front of me and I
figured out exactly. I was like, okay, this, It's going
to be about six seconds until the spikes reached that one.
So I was like, okay, pop one, pop two, wait,
and then the spikes hit the third one that was
like in the weird spot that it wasn't normally and
then pop four and then we got all of them
and it was like, you know, and that we killed

(01:24:49):
that was our progression killed that boss as well. So
I remember that was that's the one that jumps out
to me being call it where I felt like I
really helped.

Speaker 2 (01:24:57):
I have one from pre race times, like pre the
race being popular, we were I had only been the
raid leader in Emerald Nightmare Trial of Vlor and then
now night Hold and we were doing Grand Magistrix Elisond
and like some things went wrong with our cool downs
so I kind of just had to improvise them, and
I just remember like machine gunning, which, by the way,

(01:25:21):
I guess maybe since I said I just started being
raised there. I was like not good at it because
I just hadn't done it before, you know, I was
like learning get better, and on that pole, I like
fucking made shit happen, like it was like a montage,
like so many things went wrong and it's like moved
cool downs here, there and there. We made it so
far in the fight purely off of improvisation, and I
just felt like an absolute beast after that. And then

(01:25:42):
like some people in the guild were saying like like,
oh dude, that was actually like really good because they
were like, I've never seen you do anything like that before.
I didn't know you could actually raid lead basically, and
then uh.

Speaker 3 (01:25:51):
You were like blast on. Yeah it was fuck exactly.

Speaker 2 (01:25:55):
I was like Hanso Olting just calling everything under the
sun and yeah, but it worked, and oh yeah, it
made me feel like I was like, damn, okay, I
can actually kind of do this shit. That was playing
the game too right. I was back still then, so
I was I felt like a massive beast.

Speaker 1 (01:26:09):
That's how you fucking raid lead.

Speaker 2 (01:26:11):
That's how you fucking raid lead boys, insane clip. If
people have not seen that, uh, I don't know where
they could even find it nowadays, but it's a fucking
they've seen it. It's a banger, surely.

Speaker 3 (01:26:21):
Yeah, Fronk probably has it on.

Speaker 2 (01:26:23):
His rewinds if he even did one, which, by the way,
if you guys enjoy those, you should ask him to
keep making them.

Speaker 1 (01:26:31):
Yeah, Frank the he fell a little behind, but the
Dragonfight rewind should be out there anytime now, and he's
halfway through making the War Within rewind as well, so
stay tuned for those coming out very soon.

Speaker 3 (01:26:42):
Yep, all right.

Speaker 1 (01:26:44):
The Patroon question closes with thanks for not being the
bench war regards a humble civilian.

Speaker 2 (01:26:49):
That guy's given us a few Yeah, this guy's.

Speaker 1 (01:26:51):
Given us like forty Patreon questions, civilion. The quality has
been consistently high, so thanks for setting this.

Speaker 2 (01:26:55):
I think I think the quality. Okay, one of them
was like another raid buff question. I remember, wasn't a
civilian raid leader that like just accidentally stepped on the
landmine of asking us just unfortunately one too many raid
buff questions, And I think I was just like there's
no fucking way we're getting asked about this again. I
felt so bad. Well, yes, oh h hm, but what

(01:27:21):
are you humming about?

Speaker 3 (01:27:22):
I'm just looking through his uh patrion questions?

Speaker 2 (01:27:31):
Oh you what is there like a fucking log of them? Yeah,
we're just oh okay, wait where do you Where do
you see patreons there like a document?

Speaker 3 (01:27:42):
No, it's just in our discord channel, just like in
all the archives.

Speaker 2 (01:27:46):
Oh, he's got to say, there's no one channel where
all these are at.

Speaker 3 (01:27:50):
Right?

Speaker 2 (01:27:52):
Are you going through each individual episode link?

Speaker 4 (01:27:57):
Bro?

Speaker 3 (01:27:57):
I'm so confused. No, you never asked about any read books.

Speaker 2 (01:28:03):
Where are you finding this information?

Speaker 3 (01:28:06):
What do we just?

Speaker 2 (01:28:06):
No, discord, dude, there is no channel on our discord
that just has Patreon questions.

Speaker 1 (01:28:11):
Like though the one where they submit them.

Speaker 2 (01:28:14):
That's the thing. That's what I'm saying.

Speaker 3 (01:28:16):
We don't have access to that only.

Speaker 1 (01:28:18):
Okay, which channel? Then there's like a bunch of different channels.

Speaker 3 (01:28:22):
You just look through each of them.

Speaker 1 (01:28:24):
You're looking through each other's insane.

Speaker 2 (01:28:25):
There's hundreds of them.

Speaker 1 (01:28:27):
That you could search discord for civilian raid leader. When
I searched that, uh.

Speaker 2 (01:28:38):
Dude, that's what he did, and he's acting like he found.

Speaker 1 (01:28:40):
It's acting like he's no good.

Speaker 2 (01:28:43):
Pavilion RAI leader. Oh yeah, I see a couple of them.

Speaker 1 (01:28:46):
Okay, yeah, I don't see one about raid buffs.

Speaker 2 (01:28:47):
But I made that hard made up.

Speaker 1 (01:28:50):
Yeah, or maybe Frank mistyped his name. And the one
that that got it is that powers.

Speaker 2 (01:28:56):
Oh I love borrow power stuff.

Speaker 1 (01:29:00):
All right, Well, it seems like we've uh, we've ran
out of stuff to talk about. So I think that's
gonna be about it for us this week. Unlessly there
you guys have any uh all right, that is gonna
be it for us this week then, and I hope
you've enjoyed. We'll see you next week for more potty
content patios