Ep. 73 - We predicted the Future - The PoddyC

Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:00):
Hey, welcome to episode seventy three of The Body c.
This week, Max has discovered when all future content is
going to be released, and we'll definitively leak that now.

Speaker 2 (00:13):
Oh right now, right now, Okay, Well, I mean this
just just stems to, like, why haven't we heard about
eleven point two? Right? It feels like it's the point
of the season where we should at least like kind
of know what's going on in the next season. There's
usually two announcements. There's like a content announcement of like
here's the name of the raid, here's what you can
expect in this patch, and then that's not the release date,
and then there's like a release date announcement, usually much later.

(00:33):
But I just found it interesting that we haven't heard
about it yet, so I did some looked through some
dates on stream. I would I would take all the
credit for it if I could, but with mostly help
from my chat of like, why, like this point last season,
had we heard about eleven point one? And the answer
is yes, And it was about a month ago, So
like a month ago relatively in this season cycle, we

(00:57):
would have heard and basically knew the name of the
and like the basic idea for content and stuff. The
reason for that though, is that was the thirtieth anniversary,
and they were also posting like what they usually do
at the end of a year, which is like the roadmap,
which they're not doing now. So usually during that time,
especially the roadmap, you're gonna get a little bit of
a look ahead that you normally wouldn't get on maybe

(01:19):
some content they'll decide to release it this time. And
then they did another announcement. They did like a deep
dive dev panel on December nineteenth of twenty twenty four,
and that was like a lot of information that we
did not previously have and that was two days after
the eleven point zero point seven release. So eleven point

(01:41):
one point seven is coming out. I think it's next Tuesday,
five days from now, so I would say at the
very latest purely speculation, I guess, but it seems like
it would be really weird if the announcement for this
was not before like a week from today or I
guess you're listening to this. It's most likely going to
be tomorrow, maybe so Friday. I don't know when he's

(02:02):
going to put this.

Speaker 1 (02:03):
Out, but yeah, you're overestimating Frogs turn around on this.

Speaker 2 (02:06):
Yeah, so I'm estimating it's gonna come out June nineteenth
or before that point, which which makes sense because I'll
be on vacation and they always announce interesting things I
would like to stream when I'm not here. It's just
every single time. Love that. But I don't know, I'm
what do you guys think about like our information economy?
Like like getting would you guys have liked to hear

(02:29):
about the next patch? Now? Maybe that's why this last
little bits felt like there was kind of a void.

Speaker 3 (02:36):
I personally would actually I don't know if it's a
tag or not, but I would ever be just just like,
what do you call it? Stelf drop thees? Yeah, because
I don't I don't really want to know about the
next patch until, like it actually comes out. Interesting he
has a content creator, it's a little bit different, right,
Like as a content creator, I would want to have

(02:58):
PTR access and know all the things ahead of time
and be able to like kind of prepare for the content.
But if I was just like playing the game, I
would rather they just like drop that shit on us
and be like, wow, is it cool? Kind of like
elder squirrels with a readymaster right, and they, uh, but
what else. There's been a couple of other things, reasonably
about where just.

Speaker 1 (03:19):
Drop the game came out and you're like, oh, yeah,
the game is out.

Speaker 2 (03:22):
I thought about that on stream the other day when
we were talking about this, of I mean, because I
think as like a player, you would definitely, like we
talk about all the time, like how it'd be cool
in the race if you got to a boss and
you just like learned that boss's name when you got there.
If you're if you're a dungeon player, it'd be interesting
if you if the season came out and you found
out what the dungeons were like that day.

Speaker 3 (03:40):
Right, It's like, yeah, you don't just like learn the
dungeons before they even come out.

Speaker 2 (03:44):
Yeah, of course that's just like a general kind of
PTR philosophy and opinion in general. But I actually thought
about do you think, Okay, how do you think the
wild community would react to a shadow dropped patch with
no like? My initial thought was people are gonna be
so mad, and then I remembered that people are in

(04:05):
well are kind of like no matter what the announcement is,
there's gonna be like a huge negative feedback to pretty
much anything. So I'm like, okay, so it can't just
be that simple of like people be mad. Why would
they be mad? And I think like some people for
new patches like take time off work, like the first
part of a patch, especially when the season drops, is
like if you have time, you can take off work,
and you're willing to do that for a game that
is like the most value time you're just gaming, You're

(04:26):
game in eye you're gaining eye level like all the time,
So like that's when you'd maybe do that. So that's
those are the only people I could think of that
would definitely be mad. And I don't know how many
people that affects. But what do you guys think the
community reaction would be to a to a this is
by the way, just is purely just for fun. This
will never happen, right like this will this has no
chance of ever happening. But what what do you think

(04:46):
the reaction would be to something like that?

Speaker 1 (04:48):
I think it would be kind of hype. Like, so
I think if they they could announce the date without
telling us what was going to happen, right, and then
people could still plan for, you know, taking time off
work if they want to and all that stuff, and
we just wouldn't know what the content is. We just
know that's when the content is. And I think that
could be really like But the problem is that would
involve not doing PTR testing, which.

Speaker 2 (05:11):
That's like halfway right, that's you know when it's coming out,
but you don't know what is coming out. I guess
a shadow drop kind of implies you know nothing about
anything until the day happens and then it's like, oh,
a new wowpatch is out.

Speaker 1 (05:22):
Yeah. That I think would be very like mixed, just because,
like you said, there are a lot of people that
want to be able to plan for a new Wow
patch and like guilds want to plan for being able
to raid and set their raid schedule up and all
that kind of stuff. So I think that that would
be somewhat cool. I think you'd get most of the
benefit if you just announced the date and not the content.

(05:44):
But again, it's purely like we're talking about a world
where Blizzard isn't going to PTR test all the new
patch and stuff, and like that is a huge different
world than the when we live in right now. Basically,
the choices we have right now is learning about the
new content two months before it comes out three months
before it comes out or four months before it comes out,
and like, which of those is better? And I'm not
sure there's really a difference. To me, like it kind

(06:06):
of there's some upsides right Like, right now it's felt
like we've gone a long time without content. But if
they told us what eleven point two was going to be,
and assuming the release date is somewhere in August, which
I think is when everybody's sort of expecting, if they
told us about that back in like May or April,
you know, we'd have a four month wait of knowing
what the next patches and then not having it and

(06:29):
instead getting dastardly duos and horrific visions and overcharged delves.
And I think those would feel like even more kind
of empty if you already knew what was coming next.

Speaker 2 (06:42):
This is just a dorky tangent. Dorky was like, what
if this alternate thing happened? I think it's interesting, though
definitely interesting. I'm like, because other games do that, thinking
about that, what is the most successful shadow drop that
you guys can remember in gaming kind of just general
gaming thing. I think it's Apex Legends, right, I just
remember that was like that was the first game I

(07:04):
played that was just no one knew about it until
the day it came out, and then everyone was streaming
it and they paid like Ninja and Shroud at like
the height of their powers, like to like play this game.
And then and then it became a really really successful,
like long term game. Though I think recently Oblivion was
supposed to be like that, but it got.

Speaker 3 (07:21):
Like that was a massive one.

Speaker 2 (07:24):
Something right, Well, yeah, I'm not sure of Oblivion's not
my kind of game, but they I wonder do you guys,
can you guys remember of other ones that like successful
shadow drops that you were either a part of or
you remember happening.

Speaker 3 (07:36):
Well, So I didn't know Exposition thirty three was like
a game until people started hyping it up. Like maybe
it's just because I haven't been following it, but it
seemed like it came out of nowhere and everyone was, yeah,
this is the greatest game ever made.

Speaker 2 (07:46):
I'm like, yeah, like, usually game is this game. Usually
games that pop off that hard have some kind of
anticipation for them beforehand, and people were like waiting on
the release date. But you're right, but it's I could
also see with that game though, that like people did
know when it was going to come out, and that
that made sense, but then just no one knew that
it was going to be that good, and then the
word got out that it was just that crazy. We

(08:07):
could look this up, by the way.

Speaker 1 (08:08):
That's true. No, there was, there was like trailers and
videos and stuff months in advance about it.

Speaker 2 (08:13):
It was okay, yeah, it was not.

Speaker 1 (08:14):
Like a shadow drop. It was. It was just people
didn't know it was good.

Speaker 2 (08:17):
Yeah, So that's maybe that's something to learn from too.
If there's ever a game that within your circle at
least has no hype for its release, but then you
start hearing about it everywhere, there's a really good chance
that game really owns. Like there's a really it's basically
only spread from word of mouth and being great.

Speaker 3 (08:34):
Yeah, because there are a lot of games that you
hear about a lot and they get heavily advertised. You
would have like tons of streamers playing this, It would
have like hundreds of thousands of views for like the
first few days. But I like, it just drops off
the face of Earth, and those are the complete opposite.
I mean, New World. I would say it lasted definitely
longer than what there are definitely games that were like

(08:56):
way worse than that.

Speaker 1 (08:57):
There are the games that like have the huge hype
operation behind them or like randomly pick up steam among
streamers before they come out and then aren't actually good. Yeah.

Speaker 3 (09:09):
Yeah, and this was like a complete opposite.

Speaker 1 (09:11):
Yeah.

Speaker 2 (09:12):
Before we leave the like eleven point two thing, I
want to ask each of you a question. Let's just
assume that later tonight or later later this week we're
going to hear about eleven point two. I'm gonna each
ask you a question for your like not respective field,
because Drattness kind of does everything. But I think Dorky
is certainly more Mythic Plus focused. If you could see
an announcement Dorky, I'm putting on the spot here. You

(09:34):
could see an announcement next week and it's Mythic Plus related.
They announced the patch, and there's some kind of Mythic
Plus change. It could be resilient keys, it could be
to how they do Dune. Yeah. I think of a
wish list, but unless you have like two really strong ones,
try to do it to one, Like, what do you
think is like this is what I would want to
see more than anything else. If you have one, I.

Speaker 3 (09:56):
Mean I feel like because this season was really good. Yeah,
it wouldn't really be like an M plus specific thing.
It would probably be like more of like a In fact,
it would probably be like more like a RAID thing.
But go forward to pick something, Oh ten men rating
that's like vis I mean obviously if they'll never do
like that is like by far one of my biggest
wishless things, right Like if they just came out with that,

(10:18):
I would be hoogging out of my mind. But aside
from that, uh, I don't leave. Know, it'd have to
be like way more specific.

Speaker 2 (10:29):
You want to let drat No go and then take
some time to think, sure, yeah, yeah, yeah, do you
have one dream? Just eleven rant videos so you could yeah,
just cherry pick something from that.

Speaker 1 (10:37):
Well yeah, do all of those? I don't know. So
for like like patch something they would realistically do during
a patch?

Speaker 2 (10:48):
Uh? What about like about the reward track, like the
glassio thing, like do you continue? That's how has how
has it worked this season with?

Speaker 3 (10:58):
Uh?

Speaker 2 (10:59):
I don't know. I just did this the other day
on the stream where I went because I haven't been
a part of our raids farm. I'm usually not during
the later parts of Farm.

Speaker 3 (11:05):
I don't.

Speaker 2 (11:06):
My role isn't relevant. And I watched like how fast
we were killing some bosses from the last time I've
seen it, which I think was like a little bit
over two months ago, and it's it's way crazier than
like anything I can remember, like and it's not surprising, right,
Like obviously the last boss isn't like a true last
boss and difficulty, there's been nerves that happens every season.

(11:26):
But the turbo boost is crazy, and like the scaling
raid buff is crazy, right, so so so I guess
is has that worked for you? Is that is that
something you think is good for the game?

Speaker 3 (11:35):
Yeah, it's been amazing for me. I don't about you, Dones,
I think.

Speaker 1 (11:39):
The I think the stacking raid buff thing is good. Uh.
I like, I wish it was a little bit easier
to catch up. I know it has some catch up
with it, but I wish that it was more possible
because I know people who are way behind you're like
only able to get a couple per week easily, and
that kind of I wish that was I wish it
had like an even nicer catchup. It has, it has

(11:59):
better than nothing, but uh, that's one thing that I
think could be improved with it, But otherwise I think, yeah,
just making the raid get like at this point in
the patch, you know, doing something like Mythic Mugsy is
still a very high coordination check and mechanics check compared
to any other game and stuff. Obviously it's night and
day compared to like week one, week two Mythic Muggsy.

(12:20):
But I think that I think it's an appropriate amount
of nerves. I think I've always thought that nerfing the raid,
you know, at this point in the patch, it should
be this easy. I got a hot take though, for
what they could do Mythic plus. Okay, he guys know
how it's harder to heal low keys than high keys,
because I've been healing some keys in the season.

Speaker 2 (12:39):
For people who in the chat that are like kind
of unaware. Is the reasoning behind that that in higher
keys that people are like you. If you hit hit
by certain things, you die. So it's like very easy
to heal because you know what damage. If people get
one shot, it's usually their fault. Where in lower keys,
because things don't necessarily kill you, you can be really
greedy with them and you just don't know where the
damage is going. To come from more hectic. Is that

(13:00):
the logic?

Speaker 1 (13:01):
Yeah?

Speaker 3 (13:01):
And likeable damage.

Speaker 1 (13:04):
Yeah, exactly, you're taking everybody's taking more avoidable damage, which
is less predictable for the healer as well, whereas in
the high keys it's like the unavoidable damage. You know,
that's the sources of damage people are going to take.
People are pressing their defenses. Now, obviously it's not a
high key versus low key problem. It's a good players
versus bad players problem. But it creates this weird effect
for a healer where like, if you told me to
go pug A plus seven, I would expect a higher

(13:26):
chance of depleting on a healer than if I was
going to go pug A plus twelve on one of
my heelers. And that's just like not true on any
other role. So I would try and take a swing
at that.

Speaker 2 (13:40):
You don't have a solution, You just have so okay,
so let's go.

Speaker 1 (13:44):
H some of the swirlies and kicks and stuff. You
can move from doing damage to people to get hit
by them to like giving them a like a hasty
buff for something. We're talking about this before, like damage
downs before, which if you do that, then you shift
the responsibility back onto the deep s players to dodge
those things. You can also you could adjust the scaling

(14:05):
factor on some of the avoidable damage so that it's
not as nasty at low kis. That's a little bit
more like that's something they probably would hesitate to do
because it's just like as ugly to go and do,
like a PvP coefficient to something.

Speaker 2 (14:17):
But before we move off of those though, like why
why are damage downs bad? I think I think they
should lean into that more. I think you're exactly right,
like like a damage player at a low enough key level,
when things are not exactly going to kill you, you
are just not motivated to move out from them. And
I know people are like hesidant because they're like, oh,
I'm gonna end up doing no damage, Like, no, you're
gonna like really make sure you're not going to die

(14:37):
to those things. And I think that would also help
translate into higher keys, because in higher keys, right, you
can't get hit by that anywhere you're gonna die. So
like having a damage down associated with it in general
isn't going to affec high key plate because you already
can't do it, but it's going to make healing more
predictable at lower levels because people are just simply incentivized
damage wise, Like if all you care about is overall damage,
that means you just have to be a better player,

(14:57):
which is teaching you how to be a better player.
Actually think it's I can't see why it's bad. It
just seems like a good thing.

Speaker 1 (15:04):
I mean, you can and you can nerf the damage
a little bit as well, so that it's like the
key doesn't need to get overall harder. I think that
that's one general consideration that fair is, like we don't
want to make plus sevens harder by just taking the
exact same thing that is there now and also making
it so people are doing les damage because when they
ge hit by stuff, they do less damage. Like you,
you shift some of the difficulty out of the rest
of the dungeon and put it into those things, and

(15:25):
then if you dodge them, you're not getting that this well,
you can make them not effect tank specs, you know,
depending on what the thing is, because like tanks.

Speaker 2 (15:34):
Have you know, for better or worse, have kind of
gotten away with standing in some swirling in.

Speaker 1 (15:38):
A lot of case, I think they should. Yeah, I
don't think we need to add some more. I would
say that the tank and the healer rules should get easier,
not harder.

Speaker 3 (15:45):
So, yeah, it's a tank privilege. I will use that
derogatory way, but you know it is. It should be
a tank privilege to be.

Speaker 2 (15:51):
With es tank is hard enough. It already has so
much responsibility. We're not arguing to make that necessarily hard. Okay,
I'm so so a DPS only damage downs, and then also.

Speaker 1 (16:00):
You could also make more mechanics that are like, hey,
you have to soap this, or you wipe right, and
then that's like or not not wipe right. But like
you know, soaks and stuff are things that are not
that's like difficulty that doesn't really land on the heeler
that you could put into some more dungeon mechanics. So
that's the sort of thing I would be I would

(16:20):
take a swing at that. I don't know if that's
something they would do in the context of a patch
versus an expansion, but I think it's kind of in
the mid ground, like you could try.

Speaker 2 (16:26):
It, you had another solution, sorry, go ahead, rky.

Speaker 3 (16:30):
Yeah about the whole damage down problem, I've heard discussions
about this. I think it was like probably like some
wold reddit post where they've discussed this and a lot
of like I want to say, more casual players feel
that it's better if the player if that fox up
just like should have gets punished and dies instead of.

Speaker 1 (16:50):
But they don't die. Their healer gets pussied.

Speaker 3 (16:51):
Yeah, but they don't die.

Speaker 2 (16:52):
Yeah.

Speaker 3 (16:52):
I mean I guess this was like more related to
a raid whatever than them plus, but uh yeah, I
mean maybe an M plus it could be different.

Speaker 1 (17:01):
Yeah, It's tough because, like the there's a category of
people who are oblivious to their health bar that are
also oblivious to if they get a damaged production right,
and like are not going to change their play either way.

Speaker 2 (17:12):
Yeah, but I feel like they have a higher chance
of changing their play if like they they're like, oh
I'm doing no damage. Why is that? And someone in
their party says like, oh, like they have this. I
mean it would be something where initially, if they were
to just do this out of nowhere, right, all eight
dungeons have something like this, it would be a learning curve,
but like after a season of it, it would just
be expected that like, hey, if I get hit by
this thing on the ground, it means I'm going to

(17:32):
lose some damage. I honestly think that would massively shift
what people are thinking about in a lower key level.
And I think more importantly because like think about the
like the we have always talked about people getting into
higher keys, which now it seems like people are into
it more because they've actually designed the game for high
keys for the first time, which is really great. But like,
think about that time where you get into a key
level for the first time and you're like, damn, this

(17:54):
is way harder than I've done before. I think a
big reason for that is that kick going off before
it didn't matter, and now it kills you, or getting
hit by that thing on the ground or whatever, now
it kills you. Don't use a defensive for this, Now
you die. Right. You hitting a key level where all
that becomes true at the same time is really jarring. Right.
You could do it one time and be like, well, well, okay,
that's clearly way above what I'm trying to do. But

(18:15):
if you were incentivized via other ways of just you're
going to die, which is not true, just your healers
going to have to heal you and they don't know
when that's happening or not, and you made that true
earlier with you know, you obviously make the damage a
little bit less, but you get a little damage down.
I think people would certainly their motivations would, their incentives

(18:35):
have changed, and I think they would be better going
into those key levels, would have a more natural key
progression up the ladder, I think, at least for those reasons,
I think it would be really really good for the game.

Speaker 3 (18:44):
I will say one thing about this game is it's
really hard to know all the information, all the information
if he needs to know. There are just like so
many unknown factors in World of Warcraft. And if you
want to play at like the highest level, like even
if you want to play at like a medium high level,
people are just like completely clues about so many different things,

(19:05):
whether it's like specific boss mechanics or like how a
mob functions when it jumps in a certain way. He
guess what I'm talking about, right, Like, Yeah, there's just
so many like text random yeah. Yeah, it's just like yeah,
as like kind of fun is anyone supposed to know
about this stuff? Or like targeted spells unless you have
like specific week wars about like let you know that
you're being targeted, you just never know about these certain things.

Speaker 2 (19:29):
Were you saying like that that would add to that, like, oh,
well now there's that. Well I I was sinking more
and maybe I'm wrong here kind of like binary like
if you see a swirly on the ground that looks
like it's intended to be dodged, I think right now,
if everyone closes their eyes and thinks of that, you
could picture exactly what that means or what that looks like. Actually,
maybe it's a little hard because they just change else
early's work, but yeah, like, uh, you know, you get

(19:50):
the point. And if that was just you get a
damage down, not you're doing one hundred percent less umber,
fifty percent less damage. But there's an incentive to not
get hit, Like I I actually did this work in Raid,
Like I actually I was thinking about it in Raid
real quick. And I think it also really works for
that because it's another way to optimize damage. You know,
like usually you get to a boss like ras Shock
or something, and like you really really need to do

(20:12):
enough damage to kill it, and you're waiting till like
you're naturally waiting till everyone stops getting hit by fire
at the end of progression, until you kill it but
then like, also you're gaining damage every pole because as
people get better, they're also getting less like little minor
hasty buffs or damage downs or something. I Actually, I
think it would also help similar to how lower keys
to higher keys. I think going from like normal heroic

(20:33):
to mythic. In heroic you can get hit by this
thing and it doesn't matter, and in mythic it will
kill you. Right, you could use the same logic to
say that it would maybe train people for the higher
levels faster, or or maybe the negative downside would be
Now it's just something I have to think about a
normal where I otherwise wouldn't, And maybe that's not the point, maybe, right, Yeah, I.

Speaker 3 (20:49):
Mean it would be amazing for progression too. It'd mean
that like instead of wiping, you can actually continue with
the rape progression and like see deeper into the fight
even if you're not going to make the DPS check
or whatever it might be.

Speaker 2 (21:00):
Yeah, because we're not making it harder, right, We're just
simply moving some of the damage away from this thing
and moving it into a damage down right, So it's
it's it would it would mean less punishing like one
shot binary mechanics, more like attrition Battle of Attrition.

Speaker 3 (21:15):
Yeah, because there's nothing more frustrating in RAID than not
being able to see deeper into the fight. Like if
you just keep if you've gone to P two and
you just keep wiping on P one, or you have
like people die so you just can't get any further
into the fight. That always feels bad. But if it's
just all right, you're not gonna be able to make
it another fight, but at least you can see that
part of the fight. It's always nice.

Speaker 2 (21:35):
Yeah.

Speaker 3 (21:36):
But yeah, like going back to the whole information thing,
it's more I just feel like the game needs a
better way of letting players know what to do. So
an example is the Bezuka lines in Cinderbrew, because when
I'm talking about the wranglers to the right side of Cinderbrew, yeah,
do like a Bzuka line. You know when you're getting
targeted by that Bizuku line. But if you're getting targeted

(21:58):
by say a random shoot, you're not gonna know unless
you have some week where that honks at you. So
like you know, that would be like solution. And also,
just like the whole swirly and frontal change they've made,
this patch is massively impactful, like in the Theater of Pain,
the mobs that do that wind that like knocks you

(22:19):
off the edge. Yeah, people ge hit by that shit
all the time back in Shadowland Is, but I haven't
seen a single person getting knocked off in this entire
patch ever since they implemented the lines. And it's crazy
how big of a change that makes. It's not like
the mechanic is any easier or harder, is just easier
to see.

Speaker 1 (22:39):
Yeah, I'm a big fan of like taking the difficulty
away from stupid stuff like uh, like shoots in particular,
but also just like untelegraphed attacks like like like you said,
any frontal that doesn't have an animation. I'm just I'm
I'm very glad that that's something that they're trying to fix.

(23:01):
I think that makes the game a lot better.

Speaker 2 (23:04):
And they've done They've done this this is uh, They've
they've done a lot with this. But they're definitely gonna
have to do more with like removing add ons and
stuff too. Like uh. I think still one of the
biggest ones is you talk about like the game giving
information versus what an ad on can give you the
biggest one. I still think that they even haven't addressed this,
which is like you will go into a dungeon and

(23:25):
you have like a good platter script. Oh wait, actually
is plate a getting nuked?

Speaker 1 (23:30):
Is it one of the things going to be one
of the ones that's yeah, like yeah, like.

Speaker 2 (23:34):
Most okay, never mind most common.

Speaker 1 (23:37):
So we don't know the timescale on this yet, but yeah,
it's yeah. Well, a lot of the current player functionality
would would.

Speaker 2 (23:42):
Be when we looked at what they wanted to remove
and what they did in a Blizzard post. It's probably
too hard to bring up right now, but like I
remember they were like it's still okay to color name plates,
and I just remembered how specific that specific feature, how
much more information you get the first time you go
into a dungeon versus having to do it a lot
as to what the important mobs of important kicks are

(24:03):
light blue and less important kicks are dark blue, and
little mini boss like way more health mobs are pink,
and like mobs that just mail you and do nothing
else are yellow, and mobs of the tank buster have
this and it's like you just know instantly through consistent
like coloring language, like what stuff does and like that's
so powerful. But it looks like I mean, that's done

(24:24):
through Plater, so I don't know, looking at plater, here
is one that's going to be potentially nuked or maybe
that part of it won't be, so you could make
another add on that just specifically does that. Maybe they're
removing some of the more advanced.

Speaker 3 (24:36):
But I mean, like if Blizzard themselves could do that,
that would be kind of amazing.

Speaker 2 (24:40):
Yeah, I mean yeah, ideally all the stuff they're removing,
you would like if they would bake all that into
the game. I think it's just would take time. I
don't quite want to go there yet though, the like,
I think that can be like a nice twenty minute discussion.
Like a little bit later, did you guys have a
so dorky did you have any time to think after
we've kind of spit a little bit. I had some theories,

(25:01):
did you have any thoughts or I feel.

Speaker 3 (25:03):
Like it's mostly tank changes. I mean, you know, making
a tank player, I definitely want a lot of tank changes.

Speaker 2 (25:12):
Well, I have a question, So okay, I'll do it after,
I'll do it after. It's it's kind of a it's
kind of a tangent. Yeah, So dude, do what you're
gonna do, I.

Speaker 3 (25:21):
Would say, first, is just making tanks stronger. I know
we've already gone over just like fifty billion times, but
like please yeah, yeah, which is crazy by the way,
like they saw Draddles's video that they saw that Draddles
was complaining like, oh, tanks having threat issues. I mean,
it's such a problem this season in particular. But it's
just like, so we went from Legion having what like

(25:44):
fifteen hundred percent agro I believe is what it was,
or a threat modifier for tanks.

Speaker 1 (25:49):
Like six hundred and that's backup like I think it.

Speaker 3 (25:51):
Was even like four hundred something. It have been like
four fifty when they first NERF did back in BFA
or some like ridiculously low number, and that was a problem.
So they ended up gradually buffing it to a point
where it's like nine or something percent now. I mean,
it's basically like the whole psychic link change for Shadow Priests.
It's gotten up and down throughout these years, but it's

(26:14):
just never hit a right spot like right now, it
just feels like a band aid change. In fact, there
are a lot of people have been asking me, like what
do I think about the whole tank threat buff Is
it enough? Does it actually fix tank issues? It really doesn't.
It's just a band aid fix. The bigger problem with
tanks right now is I mean, I guess it's just
the problem with class design in general. Right now. It's like,

(26:38):
right now, tanks their base abilities don't do any damage
at all, Like spinning crank kick does absolutely no damage.
In fact, you don't even want to press spinning crank
kick in a way you raber Tiger palm.

Speaker 2 (26:50):
That's terriblender.

Speaker 3 (26:51):
Yeah, it's because of the Yeah, it's actually insane, like
you literally don't even want to press spinning crank kick.
Thunderclap does like absolute piss damage unless you're playing Mounts thing,
which isn't even good anymore. Then you have like a
demon Hunter obviously the meta tank right now, Spirit bomb
doesn't do any damage, so Cleve doesn't do any damage.
It's it's really just like Bear tank that has like

(27:12):
thrash doing damage, which is why Bear tank actually holds
Agro quite well at the moment. That's why the people
are always wondering why is it that Bear even though
there's no damage, can still hold threat better than number tanks.
What it's because if you're playing something like dem Hunter,
your whole sequence is you got amo Aura, then you
have to get your sigul of Flame up, then you

(27:33):
have to cast your hunt. After you finish casting your hunts,
you get a revers glave, proc you gotta send your
revers glave. Then you got a fracture, then you gotta
sow cleave, and then after all those globals, you finally
did your damage to get threat. And like, by the
time you're doing this, you have a fucking red Paladin
popping wings and instantly bursting for ten mil. You've got
like Devvokers doing their instant Yeah, and how the hell

(27:56):
is like how to how are Demon Hunters supposed to
be able to hold agro unless we understand gathering setup
and rotation extremely well? And what happens with mobs get
pulled in? Right? Like mobs get pulled in all right, Well,
you don't have a rever's glave ready, So like now
what you can't just be like hitting spirit bomb or
soal cleaves to get agro because that's gonna do piss
all damage. So like your damage breakdowns right now as

(28:17):
a tank is just the base abilities in the past
that were like fifty percent to eighty percents of your
damage is probably now only like twenty percent of your damage,
if not less, and a majority of your damage is
coming from like your hero talents or all these different
passives and stuff. So that's kind of like a more
of a general game class design balance issue. But yeah,

(28:42):
I mean like that, that's the real problem with tanks.
It's not or tank agro. It's not needing to buff
tank threat modifiers to like, you know, two hundred thousand percent.
It's really just like you go in very you press
im or iMore does piss damage. You press spirit bomb,
it does piss damage. You got to actually like do
all these things in order to do damage.

Speaker 2 (29:02):
Which also Dratos like address this reason, which also shadowt
draddy you got. I think you got the tank threat buffed,
even though I don't think. Yeah, you cannot take credit
for it. That's fine, you can be a humble king.
I think the only problem is they didn't listen to
what you said. Yeah, they they saw the title of

(29:24):
the of the rant as like agro, and they were like,
all right, agro is a problem, let's give it a little.
Your entire thing was like, there's a way more nuanced
fixed than this, you know, like threat threat is threat
should exist basically to prevent tanks from kiting because tanks
just getting agro and kiting is bad gameplay for everybody,
which we agree with. But it's like, okay, so you
should buff the really buff the threat of things Dorky's

(29:44):
talking about right now, like like soul cleave and like
things that are like you're in melee and if you
want to solve the like no kiting thing, you can
have less threat modifiers on things that you just spam
at range, right, But that isn't exactly what they did.
So they did like the the blanket blanket buff. What
was your reaction to that?

Speaker 1 (30:03):
Yeah, I think that, like I think that they had to.
I think I think that this is definitely not the
best way to do it, like a blanket agro buff.

Speaker 3 (30:17):
It's a it's a band aid promption, Yeah, like it is.

Speaker 1 (30:21):
It's definitely a band aid solution, which you know, a
band aid if you're bleeding, a band aid is good.
But yeah, I think that it is the case that, like,
like you said, Dorky, the whole Demon Hunter having no
threat during their first few globals problem is something they
should independently attack for sure, and then just in most tanks,
like most tanks, they should just look at the what

(30:41):
are the first five globals? These tanks are pushing on
pull and they shouldn't be losing threat to like anybody
else doing that thing. And then in a thirty second
window with a devovokre or a ret Paladin or you know,
a Fury Warrior or whatever that's doing really good damage.
You know, how are we okay with you know, a

(31:02):
ninety fifth percentile tank losing threat pretty reliably to a
ninety fifth percentile devvoker if they're at you know, minus
five item levels. I don't think that. I don't think
that should be true. I think that I think if
you're doing like a decently good job of your rotation,
that should be good enough, and you should be holding
threat and like it should be if you're actually kiting
that that you should be losing threat. But yeah, I
mean the sixteen percent buff. The problem is if you

(31:23):
just flat buff threat every patch over the previous patch,
the DPS players get stronger relative to the tanks. So
it's probably about just going to offset the power game
that we get next year and it'll probably feel about
the same. And again, it's not the end of the world,
Like it's not. This is not the worst the tank
threats ever felt. But I do think that a permanent
solution would be really nice. But you know, a band
aid until then is definitely better than nothing.

Speaker 3 (31:46):
So yeah, I mean, I would give them the benefit
of doubt, right because like, at least they're aware of
there's an issue and they did manage to do something
about it, because like, if they can't really make these
grand design changes in the middle of a patch, it's
something that's going to have to have to happen next
patch or maybe even next expansion. But at least, you know,
I'm glad they're looking at it and being like, all right,

(32:06):
so maybe there is an issue with tank aggro at
the moment, but it's like you said, you know, it's
not it's not an issue of it's not an issue
of just like getting sixteen percents. It's more about how
tanks do damage at the moments. And also, just like
tank damage kind of sucks right now relative to DPS.
A lot of dps are doing six to seven milli

(32:29):
overall DPS, and all of these dungeons and tanks and
only doing like literally half or below half of that.
I feel like we'd get to the point where tanks
are doing at least.

Speaker 2 (32:37):
I feel like we have this conversation every patch. Yeah yeah, yeah,
I mean just what can they do?

Speaker 1 (32:43):
Yeah?

Speaker 2 (32:43):
Do they need to either constantly buffet or change something
on the like how this works at a base level
to just make that something you don't have to change,
Like I've been thinking of DPS classes where like every
single tier they do decent at the beginning, but they
don't scale as well, so at the end of every
farm period you have to blame get buff them so
they're okay then, and then okay in the next season,

(33:03):
and then that just repeats itself. And then you saw
they kind of address this with Monk in the last
couple of years. They're like, okay, well, the main reason
this is happening is they don't scale off of two
of their stats, So let's make those two stats good
and now those are the two of their best stats,
and now that problem is less severe, although that did
kind of happen again this patch, But like they need
to change something fundamentally, or maybe we misunderstand or not

(33:24):
misunderstand but us in Blizzard have different ideas of how
much damage tanks should be contributing, right, I think it's
also I think it's very possible if that's true.

Speaker 1 (33:33):
Yeah, maybe definitely there are players that do not like
people do not like getting beat by tanks and damage,
right like DPS players. So if you have a situation
where like, you know, a seventieth percentile DPS player is
getting beaten and damaged by a ninety fifth percentile tank,
like that's maybe that's maybe the situation where that they're
hesitant to you know, buff tank damage.

Speaker 2 (33:53):
To Okay, hearing hearing those numbers, just real instant thought.
I think that's fine if you're if you're playing as
good as possibly.

Speaker 1 (34:00):
Yeah, we think that's fine. But that DEPS player is secure.

Speaker 3 (34:03):
GPS players, Yeah, they don't want to be get beat
by a tank. They don't want to be doing tank damage,
which is kind of lame. Like I will say, that's
happened a lot of times in the past. I remember
when Vent the Bear tank was popping off that one season.
I'm been like two or three wherever they had that
tier set that just like made him go crazy during
in the car and there were so many vocal DPS
players like how is this fair? How's this balance? I'm

(34:24):
getting beat by a Bear tank and literally the next
week if they nerved that tierset for Bear, and that's
like so fucking lame because Bear wasn't even that good,
Like it wasn't even looking remotely like the best tank.
It was bloody ate by a mile, and for them
to get shot or that just feels really bad, which
kind of like goes to show what Bear stances on
tank damage.

Speaker 2 (34:45):
All Right, Doroky, I have a weird question for you,
but it's going to come close to something that you
suggested before. Okay, all right, so you mentioned before, like
dude number one thing, if they announced in the new patch,
if they announced ten man rating, I'm so locked in,
Like that's what I want. Okay, as a tank and
as a ten manajoyer. How many tanks should be in
a ten man raid?

Speaker 3 (35:07):
Ooh, probably two?

Speaker 1 (35:10):
That is what it was historically.

Speaker 2 (35:12):
I mean that's what it was historically, But like I
don't know, there's two in a twenty man raid there
was two, and twenty five man raids there was usually two,
and like forty man raids, I mean there's a few
more but like, I don't know, I think if you're
gonna do ten man, something that's really interesting to me, Like,
why is Mythic Plus more fun for a lot of
tank players Because I think there's a couple of reasons.

(35:33):
Number one is you can't really outgear it. Like in Raid,
you just get to a point where you're way stronger
than the intended contents. The intended content is able to
be tanked on like day one of the patch, you know,
or by certain classes day one of the patch, and
then you get stronger, and that content doesn't get stronger.
In Mythic Plus, the mobs are hitting you every key
level and you just keep going U key level, so
you're you're you're more challenged as a tank. It's really

(35:53):
fun to like try to live, you know, that's the
whole bit. But in ten man raid, tanking in is
already so you know that they cook sometimes where tank
tank swaps are really cool. You know, I can think
of a few fights over the years we're like, man,
that's like something really unique and interesting that they did. Uh.
I feel like if they're going to do ten man raids,
it'd be way more interesting to actually have it be

(36:15):
one tanked instead of two and then really cook with
different kinds of ways to challenge that. I think there's like,
you know, the like de buffs maybe fall off after
a certain point, but you really need to learn how
to live the forty seconds of a fight when you
have four stacks of this and ads are respawning. And
I feel like it could be a mix of kind
of what mythic plus tanking and raid tanking feels like,
and it'd be an interesting way to like innovate that content.

Speaker 3 (36:38):
What about I thought, what about bringing back like main
tank and off tank where the actual off tanks. This
just does like way more different types of jobs, you know,
maybe like soaking bombs or Okay, I don't know, that's
hard to say, Like just like not your traditional tanks.

Speaker 2 (36:53):
I think that's outdated. Personally. I think if you're having
two tanks in a raid, I think it's good that
in today's there is not like a main tank in
an off tank. Well sometimes there is. Sometimes one of
you is like alpha and the other one is super Beta,
and like I always tank first and you're definitely the
main tankers.

Speaker 1 (37:09):
Yeah, Muggsy, I think I had threat for ten total
seconds on that boss.

Speaker 2 (37:13):
Yeah, so drad noss. Oh yeah, if you're a prop
palad in this tier, you are the fucking actually this
tier dorky. There was a main tank in an off
tank straight up, like like Paladin's just did not tank
the boss and you brought them on every fight to
do the most absurd shit you Like, watch a bit
of prop Paladin PUV with like on Muggsy where they
taunt the boss, get the gold thing and just sit
in immune like away from the boss for like a

(37:34):
long time. It's it's crazy.

Speaker 3 (37:35):
But is that good?

Speaker 1 (37:37):
I think it's bad.

Speaker 2 (37:38):
I think it's bad. I think it's like a clever
way to solve that only Paladins could really do this
tier a certain but like I think in general, tanking
is more fun when when both tanks share the responsibility
and are both challenged. That being said, there are not
a lot of bosses where that ends up being the case,
Like a lot of tank swaps could be. Oh, there's

(37:58):
one particularly really strong tank this year, and I take
an extra stack of this to make up for whatever
right the other tank tanks and execute so the warrior
can actually press execute more things like that. Like, I
think that's interesting, But I mean, some of the most
fun fun bosses I've ever tanked are always like both
tanks are how can we live this? We have to
problem solve how we can even make this work with

(38:20):
what we're playing right now, rather than like this guy
is the main tank and is doing all the hard
shit and this other guy's like just standing in the
corner with the gold bootste buff and I'm just like
sitting in a puddle in bubble. You know. That's like
basically off tank. That is what off tank means, you're
doing shit like that. I think that's something that's dyed
with the old game. When that existed too, tanks didn't
even have active mitigation, you know, like you didn't like

(38:44):
when cad Are and MOP. I think when they like
officially active mitigation as you know it now became a thing.
Only a few tanks had it before that, and that's
mainly when the main tank off tank thing started. And
I think primarily it's because like not all the tanks
could even really do it.

Speaker 1 (38:58):
Yeah, I do think if they made like if they
made ten men with only one tank, like there's a
decent chance that you would have DPS players taunting to
be a very common solution two different like bike mcanna.

Speaker 2 (39:13):
Am I cooked in thinking that that's kind of fun,
and that's something that's been going through the game for
a while, like like the whole like heart of the
wild Bear form tank for a little bit that when
was the last time you, guys on ironically saw someone
do that on purpose in a fight, you know, like
besides saving a pole or something like I I think,
I mean you've done this anyway, Like like you you

(39:33):
taunted on Tindrol. There's a ton of fights where like
you taunted to get some kind of specific interaction and
maybe maybe this this sounds like something where like I
would read the comments in the future and someone's like, bro,
that is so fucking stupid, Like this is purely like
some nostalgia, like only high level people would ever even
kind of understand or agree with this. But I actually

(39:53):
think stuff like that isn't bad. I also is this bad?
Speaking of tanking, this is in the realm of tank
like DPS tanking, Like you know how like in fights
you'd have a warlock tank, you would have like a
range that had to tank a specific mechanic. Could you
not replace the second tank role with spreading kind of

(40:14):
that off tank roll throughout the raid, either by taunting
or range tank and other things like that.

Speaker 3 (40:18):
I think that's the coolest shit I ever. Actually, I
really like the idea of just like some other I
don't like some like some warlock or rogue vet can
just like do a job outside of their traditional doing damage.

Speaker 1 (40:31):
I think it's cool, but I think it's like a
once per expansion thing to do on like a like
a mythic fight somewhere.

Speaker 2 (40:38):
Yeah, because if you did it all the time, then
it's like you have a ten man raid. There's almost
forty specs in this game, and and now two of
your raid spots are like guaranteed to be these two
really tankydps because there's all this off tank shit, and
like it has to be a roguer warlock, you know, well.

Speaker 3 (40:54):
It doesn't necessarily have to be like it was, just
to be something that's more applicable to multiple specs.

Speaker 1 (40:59):
They do it on on a fight by fight basis,
right where it's like, oh, like the last time we
did it was mythic gul Dan right, and there it's
literally like, oh, this mechanic wants you to have this
this class you know, tank it right, and hold the
threat because you have to like spell steal the buff
or something.

Speaker 2 (41:14):
Right, so well you did too, you had to spell
steal the buff. But also rogues. If you remember in
like the really long p. Two of Mythic gul Dan,
what was p. Three of Heroic is like they were
the ones eating all the soul stacks in the middle,
and they wore the faint, they wore the faint pants
and they were just spamming faint to heal themselves and
stuff like that. Honestly, that changed like grade design forever
because they kind of made it a point to have
that never happen again, where where like you bring rogues

(41:36):
specifically to do this exact thing they like in uh
Tombstar Garris, who did it briefly with all like the
soak stuff, but then it was just like basically gone
since the end of that expansion.

Speaker 1 (41:46):
Yeah, yeah, I don't know. I think I think it's
a it's a cool like gimmick that they haven't done
in a while, and I I'd be down to see
more of. Yeah.

Speaker 2 (41:55):
Yeah, I have another cook about like ten versus twenty man,
but I wonder if this would be like better for
I think I might just rip it. I was, okay,
so this you're gonna have to follow me a little
bit here. But I was thinking that I know, like people,
it totally makes sense you make a new game right now,
a new MMO like Raids are just not twenty players.

(42:18):
And it's more like you talk about Mythic Plus ters, like,
what do you like the most about Mythic Plus? Well,
I can just log it in kind of game. I
don't need to have a ton of social connections like
I can kind of just like load up my key
and someone will join it. It's available to be done
like that. And I was thinking about how you know,
when people in Classic Wow love to play this game,
they loved it for like the social aspect, and maybe
you people are usually averse. I know I am. I'm like,

(42:38):
I'm not going to join voicecom to some random people
in some group, you know, I usually need some kind
of incinivation or maybe I play with them in a
guild or something as what kind of sparks that? And
I think about all the attrition, especially for Mythic Plus players.
It's like, all right, rating is too much. I have
to commit to a schedule. You get to do all this.
I wonder if the reason Blizzard seems like they will
never move off that is they feel like if they

(43:00):
make rating mythegrating way more accessible, the group size is smaller,
you don't have to commit to as many schedules, and
they make it more like you can play whenever all
the time. I wonder if they're worried about that unraveling
the fabric of like social interaction in this game, and
they're basically keeping yeah exactly, They're keeping that in place,
and they are unwilling to ever move off it. Maybe

(43:21):
because that will because I think about it, if you could,
if if you could commit to rating just like you
do for Mythic Plus right now, where if you're playing
this game really without friends, and I think both of us,
all of us, I said, I mest to say, both
of you, like we have said that we would we
play this game if we did not have friends playing
it with us, And I think all of us instantly
were like, no way, you know, like that, like what

(43:44):
you playing it with friends or as much or as
prominently you wouldn't play it. But there's a bunch of
people who play this without really a ton of social
connections and make it work. I think almost exclusively mythic
plus players, And I wonder if Blizzard is kind of
scared of that. Like they they think this game and
they you know, this game is so much better with
friends that even though it is annoying to try to
make them in game, but once people do, they're happy

(44:06):
that they have friends in the game, and it makes
the game better. It like objectively increases their experience with
the game. That that is why guilds and so many
social interactions are created from the guild environment. And joining
a guild is annoying because you just have to apply
and do all the stuff. But like at the end
of the day, you may not want to do it,
but it does get you in that guild and you
do end up creating relationships with people, and that is

(44:28):
what like they're never willing to move off that as
long as Wow exists. What do you think about this theory?

Speaker 3 (44:33):
Yeah, I mean it's why a lot of us play
on molds right. In fact, didn't we kind of talk
about this last week to you? I was saying that
Blizzard is afraid to make the game more quote unquote
plug friendly because they want you guys to go out
there and to actually make meaningful social interactions, whether it's
just you know, encountering someone in the group and just

(44:54):
simple like hello, and then then all that, let's do
this route and let's do this cool gig bui, or
like actually getting on comms and figuring out how to
problem solve in the group.

Speaker 2 (45:07):
The players are there's so much friends.

Speaker 3 (45:09):
Yeah, the players just don't want to And I get
it too, right, Like sure, I mean I've been in
this situation before, right, Like back when I used to
pug keys, I didn't always have a group. It'd be
the most awkward shit ever. Like sometimes the reg of
a group leader would link of this chord and so
you join. There's like nobody else there. It's just you
and the guy. He goes like hey, and he's got
like the worst most dogs mic ever. Yeah, he's got

(45:32):
the most dogshit mike ever open mic. The entire time
there's like saying noise, baby crying in the background, maybe
his mom's yelling at him, and it's just like he's
coughing and sneezing into the mic. So if our two
or three people joined the group in comms afterwards, they
don't say shit. Nobody says anything. You wipe on the
first ball, people just leave nobody even like maybe the

(45:54):
guy he doesn't even speak English, and it's always like
an extremely awkward interaction. So I like, I get why
people are so adverse to this, especially for girls out
of here right, Like, I know a lot of girls
if they don't really want to be on comms because
like they could get really fucking weird. You know, I've
viitted these situations before. But at the end of the day,

(46:14):
like Blizzard does want us to actually play the game
with other players, right, Like, it doesn't have to be
to the extent of mythic rating. I do think mythic
rating is a little bit extreme. In fact, when I
saw you reacting to vi Shindig video, which is kind
of crazy, that video popped off. It popped off on
your YouTube, dude.

Speaker 2 (46:33):
Yeah, I actually really felt bad about that because I
only like uploading reactions to YouTube when it's like, okay,
this is just like maybe some people want to hear
my perspective, But whenever it threatens to get more views
than the original video, I actually feel like such a
piece of shit.

Speaker 3 (46:47):
I mean, I think it's good. I mean it gave
him more exposure. Like I'm sure he's happy about it too.
Oh yeah, saw my video like that kind of it's.

Speaker 2 (46:54):
Just murky though, Like it makes like if enough people
are watching my thing of it, it makes me feel
like my perspective and hearing the commentary is the reason
why they're watching it. And it's not cannibalizing views from
the other one, but I feel like part of it is.
And it's just as small. We don't have to litigate this,
but I just feel when I woke up and I
saw that video doing really well, I was like, fuck me,
it was a feeling of existential dread. It was not happiness,

(47:16):
I mean.

Speaker 3 (47:17):
But it just kind of goes to show that like
a lot of people actually really want to Like that's
kind of what I get took away from it. You know,
like a lot of people reacting to these videos strongly
is because a lot of people actually want to mythic grade.
But at the same time, like I'm looking at a
lot of these comments and people just like this is
why I don't mithic grade anymore. It's just like it's
too much like you have to as someone who's like
trying to enter cutting edge mythic grating, you have to

(47:40):
like apply for guilds, and then you need to interview
with this gdv's guilds, and then you have to show
up for two to three nights per week and you
have to be there for these specific times.

Speaker 2 (47:50):
Even if you're not in it.

Speaker 3 (47:51):
Yeah, even if you're noted. And it's just like it's
a lot to ask for it for many wild players,
especially if the ones who are getting older nowadays, like
a lot of Wold players are realistically in the forty Yeah, yeah,
god damn.

Speaker 2 (48:03):
We I mean, like, okay, but do you think this
whole like fabric of the community, this social stuff, like
do you think that would be not true? With ten
Man Reid You'd still have to find But maybe they're
just maybe they're.

Speaker 1 (48:13):
Just gonna cloc like M plus right where.

Speaker 2 (48:16):
Yeah you be mine. You could combine two Mythic plus teams,
just like people used to combine two raiding guilds together,
which definitely works every time.

Speaker 3 (48:22):
Well, the thing is like a lot of people have
at least one or two, maybe like three four other
friends that they play with, and then it's very easy
to just pug the rest much easier or like at
least have like another group of friends.

Speaker 1 (48:33):
When you think about what makes raid different from M plus, Like,
the number of people is definitely part of it, but
I think a lot of it is also, like the format, right,
the fact that with M plus you can just get
five people, you don't break a weekly thing, and you
take thirty minutes to do an attempt, and you can
just do as many as you want, versus a RAID
situation where like, imagine, okay, imagine if we had twenty
player M plus versus five player Raid with the raid

(48:55):
lockout working the way that it does right now, versus
the M plus working the way that it does right now,
Like which of those would be? I think a lot
of the friction does come from the things that wouldn't
get better, Like wouldn't change going from twenty to ten,
right the fact that you're on y.

Speaker 2 (49:10):
You had a mythic lockout with five people, that would
still be miserable. Yeah, yeah, it would, yeah, yeah.

Speaker 3 (49:16):
I mean it's not just the player size, of course,
there's definitely a whole lot more.

Speaker 1 (49:19):
The players is definitely a lot, but like, I don't
I think that the I think ten would still I
don't know if it's more than halfway from rage right
now to like M bluzs.

Speaker 3 (49:31):
Okay, So from my experience in losst Dark and what
I've heard in Final Fantasy fourteen, which are eight man raids,
it it actually becomes extremely puggable, even like extremely hard content,
like content that would rival some of the harder contents
in Wow. Right, Like that type of content does get
pugged because, like we were saying earlier, you can just

(49:52):
get a couple of friends and be and because if
there's no lockout, you can kind of just grab other
players and be able.

Speaker 2 (49:58):
To maybe and you find people that are decently as
progressed as you. You spend a few hours in there,
you get a little far right, Now, those are.

Speaker 3 (50:04):
More friends like that too. It's like, Okay, you know,
this guy's kind of cool. You can like you can
add them and you hit them up next time, or
like if all those types of connections are really meaningful.

Speaker 2 (50:13):
Is that what they're afraid of? Though, like you're saying,
like in these other games of smaller group sizes the
hardest content in the game because they are smaller group
sizes like equal or similar to like mythic early mythic difficulty,
they they become puggable where mythic difficulty does not the
later bosses, right, is that what they're afraid of? They
don't want they want some content in the game, the

(50:35):
apex of whatever they're like doing reward wise in the
game to be something you have to create social connections
to do to keep that social thing alive in the game. Like,
is that is that? Would that not be a reason?
Potentially why they don't want to do that is because
they don't want this stuff to be puggable intentionally they've
kind of said stuff like that in interviews, said that before, right, Yeah,

(50:55):
like an interviews he's almost word for word been like
wet like later mythic, we do not We want you
guys to find a guild to do this. And I
just wonder if that's the motivation, and that's the.

Speaker 3 (51:06):
Motivation, that their motivation, But are they going to.

Speaker 1 (51:09):
I mean, okay, the question is would the game lose
something if we lost bosses that are hard enough to
require a coordinated career? But I think the answer is yes, Like.

Speaker 3 (51:18):
Yes, those boss I mean would still require coordination, just
not requiring twenty players to coordinate. It would just require
ten players of coordinating thing that.

Speaker 1 (51:26):
You needed ten players to like do the level of
strategic coordination that you need for like last two bosses
of an average mythic rade like that. You couldn't realistically
like pugging those sorts of things, is I think not?

Speaker 2 (51:38):
Yeah, if you had ten man muggsy like you're you're
not pugging that even after all the nurse rate, I
feel like that's puggable.

Speaker 3 (51:44):
You think not. I mean, well, assuming they also remove
the lockouts.

Speaker 2 (51:48):
Well, I think it would be puggable if you met
with the same pug like over the course of like
a week and a half or two weeks. But then
at that point you're just a guilt if it was.

Speaker 1 (51:56):
One of those pugs where it's like this isn't really
a pug. It's like, well, there's like already five m
plus ers and we'd pick twenty people from it or
ten people.

Speaker 3 (52:02):
Like what if it's like half what if it's like
say five of the players are a static group, like
you have five friends and you're just pugging the rest
like you can still kind of just like all right,
you know, we've got sis, you know, like yeah, but
you just got to let that person know.

Speaker 1 (52:17):
I think there's just a level of coordination that would
not work for for any realistic definition of pug except
for maybe if you're pugging in the pool of like
the thousand best players in the region.

Speaker 3 (52:30):
Well, so hold on. So the way I see it
is like this, if you're trialing new players, aren't you
basically pugging new players, because like you're just getting new
players in that haven't progressed with you before, and you
just let them know of their assignments, and.

Speaker 2 (52:42):
I think the same thing they would end up being,
like like you running a PUG with similar people and
then trying new people over the course of a couple
of weeks for something that's really really hard is basically
operating exactly how a guild will operate, just without the
label of a guilt.

Speaker 3 (52:54):
You're just a guilt yeah, exactly. But I mean it's
just like you know, you're running with like maybe like
four or five of the same people. It's easier to
make a guild with the exactly.

Speaker 1 (53:01):
Yeah, that part is definitely true, like that there are
a lot of just the fewer people you have, the
easier it is to get them the other that's.

Speaker 2 (53:09):
I mean, dude, Like the main argument for ten mans,
I've always seen it, like main argument four and a
small one against it is the key to happiness in
WOW rating is having skill parody amongst your raid team
because like, and I think, dorky you you've you've said
this a lot before, where there are some bosses where
you're having so much fun, even if it's a lot

(53:29):
of polls, because I think the thing that makes rating
fun is getting good enough at a hard boss to
where you basically master every like thing that happens in
that fight. You're you're working towards a point of mastery
to where like you are so locked in, like you
know exactly what the fuck you're doing. At every point.
You can still make mistakes, but like their mistakes, you've
you've solved this thing right. And usually when people get upset,

(53:51):
and I know you have said this in raid is
when you get to a point where you have achieved
mastery of the fight. But because you are better than
the average skill parody or maybe better than your worst
player to where it's going to take twenty thirty, forty
or worst case scenario, like one hundred more poles for
a lot of these people or a few of these
people to actually achieve the same mastery you have. You
are going to be bored for those one hundred poles,

(54:12):
but you will not be bored up until the point
that it took you to get to that point, because
that's fun. That is the fun, and rating is achieving
that level of mastery, but with bad skill parody amongst
your group, meaning that there are people that are really
really good people that aren't as good you are. Basically
you were going to have that happen on every single
hard boss. It is unavoidable. But if you can find

(54:33):
and it sucks for the person who's at the lower
end too, because they're trying, you know, and they don't
never really get to achieve full mastery because they get
almost there and then the boss dies because you were
waiting on them, you know. But if you have a
guild with good skill parody, you are everyone's kind of
going through that, and then rating just becomes a fun
thing because you by the time you get to the
point where you've had all the fun with the boss,

(54:53):
it dies because everyone's that good or better, right, And
I think with ten minutes and it is objectively easier
to find ten people of a similar skill level than
it is twenty. I mean by a fucking like exponential
amount right easier, and that is the biggest argument. One
small one I have against it is I wonder how
much it would affect balance, So, like currently there's a

(55:15):
lot of balance concerns, mainly when you when I hear
people complain about balance, I immediately know they're a Mythic Plus
player because in Raid balance has been very, very good
for a long time. There's you know what to expect,
where it's like one class will be kind of better
at this thing, and like a few classes every tier
would be like pretty strong. Maybe some classes stink, but
like you could play everything, I mean Raid, by default

(55:37):
you want one of every respect except for DK for
some reason. So like by default you're kind of just
like in the Raid anyway, and you don't really care
about balance that much. But a mythic plus you're mad
if you're middle of the pack, right, you should be
okay if you're average, but you're you're you're not because
if you're not at like one of the top like
seven to eight specs in the game, which is an

(55:57):
extremely hard thing to do, you are not. You. Instead
of being able to log in and do a Mythic Plus,
you wait thirty minutes to get invited. That directly affects
your gameplay. That fucking sucks. That does not exist in
raid right, Okay, ten mans, Now instead of trying to
fit thirty seven specs into a twenty man, you are
trying to fit thirty seven specs into a ten man.

(56:18):
With how niche some classes are in PvE uh, A
few of those spots, I think, after you play this
scenario out for a year or two, are gonna be like,
you just kind of need a moon can in every
ten man. I'm just making up a few classes that
do like a specific thing really really well. You kind
of just need a rogue besides the whole like current.

Speaker 1 (56:37):
Situation is, Yeah, you'd like even talking about that, you're talking.

Speaker 2 (56:41):
About yeah, I was saying, like, I think in the
scenario where you're having a ten man raid, like the
current concept of raid bus would have to be completely
redesigned because your your comp would be completely defined by
those But let's just say even not even if you
remove raidbus, you're literally just looking at damage profiles and
your defensiveness, right, You're going to have them age every
time that's one thing's gone. Then you have two healers,

(57:01):
maybe one tank or two tanks and then you're talking
about five deps spots. I guaranteed two of them would
be like you have this class every fucking time, So, like,
would it be a bad thing that right now? If
you're really upset about Blizzard balance and you're constantly posting
about it, you're basically you are going to be a
mythic plus player because it obviously just the way the
game has made it affects you so much more if
you move that to also being a raid problem because

(57:24):
of the sheer amount of specs into a ten man,
is that is that a big negative or a potential
big negative?

Speaker 3 (57:29):
So I actually have a lot to say about the
whole balance situation Vispatch. Like I thought about this a lot, okay,
and I would say, like, the first problem is it's
the problem with mplus is infinitely scaling rightly, when you
have static difficulty, balance isn't as much of a concern
cause like say, keys cap that fifteen, right, If keys

(57:51):
cap to fifteen, people don't really care as much about
what metaspecs you're playing. It's really in the situation where
where m CKE's go higher and higher, and you can
do higher if you play better specs, Like say you're
doing eighteens right now, Well, if you just played full meta,
then you might have an easier time doing or getting

(58:13):
into groups to do an iteen. So like that's the
third first thing, I feel like it wouldn't be as
much of an issue even if it's like a time
man rating. And the second is a lot of the
reason why the meta happens is because wild players just
want to be able to copy strats I'm actually looking at.

(58:33):
I was looking at a leader board of m plus
just like the past few days, and I'm like, damn this,
this broom Master group is doing insanely well, this physical
godcom group. It actually made me really want to play
my broom Master myself. Like I've been thinking about maybe
just doing a broom Master adventure on stream for like
a few weeks or some shit, and I was like
watching fair runs and holy shit, these guys are insane.

(58:53):
By the way, but let me just like link one
of your streams.

Speaker 2 (58:58):
I love that's the case. So, by the way, I
love there are competing mythic plus comps at the highest
level that are not just like swapping out one class
for another. It's like a totally different playing.

Speaker 3 (59:06):
Yeah, they're playing an entire different cop like. It is
actually so cool. Yeah.

Speaker 2 (59:10):
If that could happen every season, that'd be so sick.

Speaker 3 (59:13):
Yeah. So this group, by the way, they've been timing
some of the highest keys in the world. We're doing
like twenty and twenty ones with Roomaster, Outlaw, Rogue, restl Shaman,
Arms Warrior, and Feral Druid, which is like just completely unorthodox. Right,
It's like literally none of the SPACs are a meta whatsoever.
But because they all mesh so well together that it

(59:33):
can do well. And so the beauty of this comp
is well, first of all, this guy's UI is complete
dog shit. He by dog shit, I mean it's like
very bare, right, Like he's using base name plates base
just like almost everything is like basey wye, right.

Speaker 2 (59:49):
A lot of people in our comment section would call
that based. Yeah, it's pretty based.

Speaker 3 (59:53):
It's like based in the dog shit Wait, but uh yeah,
based on what a quote based though, Yeah, exactly.

Speaker 2 (01:00:01):
It's only that.

Speaker 3 (01:00:02):
By the way, they're also not in comms. Oh that
is ridiculous, Yeah, exactly, very share just like baby. Yeah,
if you know, if you're not in voice comms or
just like type two your shover timing like twenties and
twenty one.

Speaker 2 (01:00:15):
Group full of junk rats and they're just fucking yeah exactly.

Speaker 3 (01:00:19):
It's a group full of junk rats typing the highest
of the world, and that is amazing. But like, so,
going back to the whole balance discussion, what I've noticed
in this season in particular, and I want to say
it's due to resilient. I know everyone's gonna get ragy
about the whole resilient. I'm just letting you guys right now,
I am not advocating against resilient. I'm just saying I

(01:00:39):
don't like the resilient, that's all. But uh, anyways, so
a lot of these groups that are doing higher keys,
they're in this yellow hell, right, I guess what hell is.
It's a League Legends phrase where you get stuck at
a certain rating because you you're led to believe that
everyone around you sucks and the only way you can

(01:01:00):
possibly progress is if you get lucky. But is getting stuck. Yeah,
people are getting stuck in this like eighteen key level
range wherever. They're just like trying to get higher but
they can't. And these guys are just copying strats from
the best teams in the world. Like literally, as soon
as people are doing some new strat right like some

(01:01:21):
crazy workshop jump skip where you like skip the pack
and you're skipping the r penalt of stuff, everyone's just
trying to copy that strat. And it's so much easier
to copy the strat when you're following the meta comp.
If you don't follow the meta comp, then people are like,
well to.

Speaker 2 (01:01:34):
Completely do a different things.

Speaker 1 (01:01:35):
Yeah, it's a self reinforcing thing, right where the metacomp
is good and it's maybe like five percent better or
something than doing some random stuff. But then you know
the good strats developed by the good players on the metacalp,
whereas you do not know the best way to like play.

Speaker 2 (01:01:52):
Yeah, I mean it's infinitely harder. I would say, that's
like that's way hard, like like executing something that something
else is figured out, but then also be the people
to figure out exactly how to make your comp work
is infinitely more difficult, so like way more respect I
think to what they're doing.

Speaker 3 (01:02:07):
That's crazy, Yeah, because like normally there'd be certain pulls
where you need a DK grip, and so because you
don't have a DK, well, sudden people are well we
just can't do this ungeon we don't have a DeKay
in the group, or like mind suit skips right, Like
in Cinderbrew, you want to mind suit skip one of
the packs, but if you don't have a priest in
your group, it's like, oh, well, we can't do this.
So people just can't like figure out stuff themselves wherever

(01:02:30):
it's like using envispod or maybe the druid can pull
away and do some kind of melt skip. There are
so many creative ways you can do these dungeons that
people just don't want to think about. And it's just
so much easier to just open up Yoda TV stream
and just copy whatever round they do and whatever strats
they do.

Speaker 2 (01:02:50):
Yeah, is it not worth mentioning that they're having way
more fun though? Yeah, definitely, Like like if you are
this is certainly true and raid, like if you're the
guild that like if Echo or us are on a
bus and I'll talk to like Roger after the tier,
and if it was a boss they just went to
and just copied our strat versus one where we were
pretty at the same point, and like they were also
able to problem solve it. They will innately love those
bosses a lot more because they got to go through

(01:03:13):
the like the problem solving processes, like the real if
you remove that, like most of our gilb wil quit
the game. Right. So what these people are doing is
they're like basically the only high key group besides the
very very top of the metacomp that is actually having
o mega fun because you have to keep trying things
to make your comp work with what these people are
trying to do.

Speaker 3 (01:03:34):
Like people, that's funny too, because like I've had I've
heard comments before in my stream saying how like oh,
like I'm so sick of how everyone's doing these like
new tech and skip and all that stuff. I'm like, wait,
but I mean that's like the fun part of doing umplus.
Like when you're doing um plus, just figuring out how
to do execute these crazy polls and doing these skips
and how to like do a crazy cool route is

(01:03:55):
really fun.

Speaker 2 (01:03:55):
But is that why you're saying resilient keys are good
because like resilient allows you to do this, No.

Speaker 1 (01:04:00):
Dorky doesn't like resilient keys.

Speaker 3 (01:04:02):
Yeah, Well, so it's both right, Like, on one hand,
it's kind of cool that like players can come up
with these crazy shrats and stuff. But on the other hand,
a lot of groups fat just don't know what they're doing,
are just pulling up whatever streamers are doing and trying
to mimic them when they like literally aren't playing with
the same tools, like if they're not coordinating the same

(01:04:22):
scs and stuff, like you would see if I'm going
into priory first pull and just pulling ten casters and
how to how are you do ten caster polls without
perfect coordinated secs. But because it's resilient, we just keep
doing it over and over and well pretty bad, like
eventually really get it.

Speaker 2 (01:04:36):
Couldn't you make the argument that, like, we all think
it's really really cool that this group exists for a
lot of reasons, but don't you think resilient keys might
be the reason that this group exists, Because when you
don't have resilient keys and you have the one shot
at this key, like we talked about the vortex pinnacle
you did in that TGP a couple of years ago,
We're like, that would have never been done on live
because you wouldn't have had enough attempts to actually get

(01:04:56):
that first poll right. It could only be done really
in resilient key faster or a TGP like practice fashion right,
where the whole the amount of problem solving that is
required to make this comp work is probably needed because, like,
think about how much easier it is to copy a
video and a comp from someone that you know have
done this and then just copy every step versus figure
out four different specs or five on how exactly to

(01:05:20):
make this work you without the resilient key resetting and
going again. Usually that's just it's just so much harder
that you may not ever begin, and you may.

Speaker 3 (01:05:31):
Before like I think you guys do specifically, but for
other vast majority of players, yeah.

Speaker 1 (01:05:38):
I mean you can't. You can never be if you're
playing with a five stack, you are never doing progression
keys that are resilient, right. Resilient keys are only definition.

Speaker 2 (01:05:46):
Unless unless one key is so hard that it's multiple
key levels below every other one.

Speaker 1 (01:05:51):
But you have to time that key to get resilient
to that level. Yeah, okay, w yeah, speaking which we
did get a which I think some of it was.
Some of it was the fact we let on it
last week. Some of it was also the fact that
Frank made the title and thumbnail the way he did,
But we got a decent amount of pushback on our

(01:06:13):
stances on resilient keys last week, which I don't know
if we want to talk about that anymore.

Speaker 2 (01:06:18):
Well, I definitely don't want to go into like a
full on resilient thing. I didn't actually see the thumbnail
in the title because he did.

Speaker 1 (01:06:25):
It was like a he was like people are selling
keys or selling tries or something like that.

Speaker 2 (01:06:30):
That there was like a yeah, I mean I on
stream the other day, like someone in my chat, I
was like, talk about resilient for a second, and they're like, yeah,
there was actually a bunch of really good comments on
your all's YouTube about resilient keys. I'm like, okay, I
want to go hear from the people. And then, I mean,
I know they didn't. I don't even remember that entire
We talked about it for a long time. I don't
remember exactly what they but I noticed I noticed a

(01:06:51):
few comments where like, these guys don't know what it's
like to play this game without friends or without a
bunch of really good people they can zone into a
key with. And now I don't want to make this
like antagonistic between us and the commentary. We love you guests,
keep watching the PARTTYC. But like, if I can just
say this is a little bit of a risk, maybe

(01:07:11):
Dratono should do this because he's more likable. But like,
it's just like when we are who we are, all
of us have acknowledged that we probably wouldn't play this
game if we didn't have it with our friends, and
we are in high level guilds. We have played the
game in a high level for a long time, so
we I hope we're not pretending to know what the

(01:07:33):
person who is like plugging fives without anyone on their
friends list is going through. Right, we can only speak
to but like, if you're listening to this podcast, you're
signing up for hearing takes from us three people, and
sometimes from and those people play the game a certain
way that may be totally different than you, and our
perspective sometimes tries to maybe include other things, but like

(01:07:54):
we can only try as hard as we can, you know,
like we don't experience it. So I just noticed a
few comments that were like, these guys are so out
of touch with this specific community. I'm like, yeah, Like
I mean, Dratos, I think more than anyone tries to
be a man of the people. But like hopefully we're
not pretending to like be some people are not.

Speaker 1 (01:08:14):
I think it's a fair definitely a fair thing to
try and remember. I do also I think the thing
with resilient keys that's so weird to me is like
the people that get the benefit that I in particular
am most concerned about, which is like the people who
do get to do their prog keys as resilient keys
are the people with friends, Like you don't get to
do that as your for your prog keys if you

(01:08:36):
can't get people to invite you to their resilient keys
that they don't need and you do need. So it's
like that particular downside which I think our take on
resilient keys is like there's there's a lot of downsides
and a lot of upsides, and it would be good
if they could If there are ways to take out
the downsides without taking out the upsides, they should look
at doing that. One. For instance, I think very low
hanging fruit would be just banning tip for invite in

(01:09:00):
the group binder like that that is a plague and
should be should be eliminated.

Speaker 2 (01:09:04):
How widespread is that. I was trying to get a
vibe from my chat, like if you were at that
key level and you're trying to do one key level
above years that you do not have every is resilient. Yet,
how many runs out of ten are you signing up
for where they're trying to make you pay them to
join make it up?

Speaker 1 (01:09:19):
I've seen like it's maybe like I've heard storty percent
of the keys in the group binder or something.

Speaker 2 (01:09:23):
Right now, but that's insane.

Speaker 1 (01:09:25):
I'm not sure. I'm like, gon, look.

Speaker 2 (01:09:26):
That is a plague. I thought I would have like
just randomly just trying.

Speaker 1 (01:09:30):
To get what key level you're talking about, like like plus.

Speaker 2 (01:09:32):
Eighteen keys, I don't know anything where this is happening,
Like is it more of a plague in fifteens and
sixteens than it is in eighteen?

Speaker 1 (01:09:40):
I think like fifteen, sixteen, seventeen, eighteen is the range
where this is the most plaguey.

Speaker 2 (01:09:45):
I mean, yeah, that's fucking weird. They should totally. I
don't think any of us gave the impression that was
a good thing, right, yeah, yeah.

Speaker 1 (01:09:50):
Exactly, And that's like that is a downside that has
come out come about because of resilient keys, and you
can fix it without killing resilient keys. But it is
a downside of the change that has been made right now.
So it's uh, I don't know, I get I feel
like there's just this internet wide phenomenon where if you
talk about a downside if something, people assume you are

(01:10:11):
against it writ large Yeah, yeah, it's just like that's
not the way that I want to talk about things, right, Like,
but I guess that's often how I mean, people hear it.

Speaker 2 (01:10:24):
If Frank hit a suggestive thumbnail and title, I'm sure
if that's actually the case, but like we've all seen
examples of like that will totally paint the public opinion
of what you're talking about there. I think the best
way to look at it is there are people clicking
on your video to go into the comments section before
they listen to a word of what you're saying. I'm
not gonna go into a big thing about it, but
the Preach video about him quitting Wow and chadow Lands

(01:10:46):
is literally the all time mess example of this. Uh.
But like then we have to own a little bit
of that, like you know, if we if if you,
if you are putting a title and a thumbnail to
get more people to click on your video, you also
have to live with the consequences the people are going
to do that exact thing. So so some of that,
you know, if we can.

Speaker 1 (01:11:04):
I'm sure some of it's from that, but I think
some of it is also people like legitimately listened and
responded that way.

Speaker 2 (01:11:10):
Yeah, from what I saw, it sounded like a lot
of people did listen to what we were saying. The
only ones is like, because okay, YouTube isn't like Twitter,
and that Twitter used to have when you clicked on
a post or a tweet, it would have like the
most reasonable responses at the top that the most of
it uploaded, and then like it got increasingly more degenerate
until the bottom. And now Twitter is made where when

(01:11:32):
you right when you click on a tweet, the most
divisive crazy shit is at the top, and then there's
extra degenerate stuff at the bottom. But like you have
to like scroll into the middle to middle bottom to
find reasonable regular people, which Twitter has increased vanishingly small everyday,
uh numbers of those people on it. But YouTube, generally
speaking has the best comments near the top. You don't

(01:11:53):
see like upvoted like shit posting at the top unless
it's like a funny thing. It's usually if you want
to see how the people are responding to your video
in large, the stuff at the top is going to
give you the best idea of what that is for sure,
And I noticed a few things at the top where
the general I wish I actually I should probably bring
up an example, but I looked at like two or
three on stream where it was just like somehow in

(01:12:15):
the title thumbnail or what we were saying, we definitely
so it's not your roll's fault for taking it this way,
like we gave you all the impression that like we
know how it works for people completely outside of our
perspective of what we would normally do. And I hope
that that we didn't do that, but I mean we
must have, right, because like the response was definitely like,

(01:12:36):
don't speak for us, or you guys don't understand anything
outside of you playing with your good players, which is like, yeah,
like we don't because that's what we do. And you
know that's that's that's the old potty see. We we would
love to it's hard to speak for everyone in the
wild community, and I hopefully we don't pretend to do that,
right because you can't.

Speaker 3 (01:12:54):
We're we're voicing our opinions right like these, yeah, exactly
the whole.

Speaker 1 (01:12:58):
These are objective fact takes.

Speaker 3 (01:13:01):
Yeah, yeah, these are base takes. I mean it kind
of depends on the community that you're hearing this from.
Two So, like I've seen some of the comments on
the Bench podcast by.

Speaker 1 (01:13:10):
The way, with oh god say some of the look.

Speaker 3 (01:13:13):
At his COVID, So respectfully, you guys are not the
target audience for Resilient Keys. Stop hating on the This
is to of the Bench, by the way. They are
serving the core and plus players who are pushing for
three k io who don't have a consistent group to
play with. And the funny part about this is you
don't even have resilient in three k io. Three k
io is like below Brazilian Rage.

Speaker 2 (01:13:35):
So if they're not even interacting with resilient.

Speaker 3 (01:13:37):
Keys, and this guy is saying, how like, oh like
this is not for you guys, it's for me. And
the ironic part is you literally don't even have resilient yet.

Speaker 2 (01:13:44):
Well okay. And then also there's forty five likes on
this comment, which means that yeah, like forty five people
read the first part and we're like basically agreeing with
the sentiment of you guys don't know what you're talking about,
but either didn't know or also misinformed as to what
they're saying is completely incorrect. Right, It just doesn't literally
does not apply to this person. It does apply to
the people that are talking about it on the podcast.

(01:14:04):
It's just one of those things where it struck that
nerve that you can strike sometimes where people who play
this game not as hardcore just get really fucking mad
at some take you have, what whatever, whatever, that that
nerve is got got struck with this, and I mean
it's possible that we certainly had something to do with that,
like something we said or titled thumbnail let that led

(01:14:26):
that to happen.

Speaker 3 (01:14:28):
I mean, I guess Resilient is one of those things
where it's like it feels good for players because it's
kind of like getting gear right, like the number go
up io, go up right. If they want to feel
good about being able to do these keys. Well, the
negativity that tied to it, well, I mean, there still

(01:14:48):
are negative parts of Resilient, but you know, I vive
just wanted to have an easier time in keys, and like,
I get it. You know, there's nothing wrong with It's
kind of like the same as how people enjoy doing
keys like Shadow Moon Bureau Ground Like I thought, I
keep complete dog shit, But I mean, hey, there are
a lot.

Speaker 2 (01:15:02):
Of people liked it because it was just the there's
a free key. Yeah, it just depends on what people
want from it, thik plus you want to be challenged
or do you want this thing you're doing to get
loot to give you loot easy?

Speaker 1 (01:15:12):
And like Mob Soles, for a lot of people speed.

Speaker 2 (01:15:14):
Yeah, that that's their motivation. Yeah, exactly. Mod Soles, like
Mob Souls is a very hard dungeon on higher keys
and very problematic. But for most people, they never experienced that,
they experienced doing the really fast thing to get artifact
power to make my guy bigger. Right, and then then
you grow the interaction with you and that dungeon is
extremely positive, is only positive, much more positive than every
other dungeon. So yeah, I mean that you're you're always

(01:15:36):
going to do that based on your own experiences.

Speaker 3 (01:15:38):
Yeah, And I mean there are a lot of people
who are getting boosted straight up to like plus eighteen
keys this season, which would have been unheard of in
previous seasons. In fact, I think the title range this
season is going to be insanely high because of resilience,
and you know, maybe a lot, like a lot of
people do enjoy that. But at the same time, there
are a lot of people who are against this idea
and notion that like they're going to run into some

(01:15:58):
absolute I al know, what's the best way of putting
in absolutely nice players in their eighteens.

Speaker 2 (01:16:10):
Are you guys going to do the Patreon?

Speaker 1 (01:16:12):
Yes? I'd love to, all right. This week's Patreon question
comes from anonymous and it says, Hi, potty c Squad,
I have a question about recruiting a twenty first man
outside the raid lead directly, rather than having a team
member grow into that role. My Guilt leadership has been
mentioning interest in having a twenty first for quite some
time now and done some trials of it. It sounds

(01:16:33):
like a great idea. On the surface. Our raid lead
does a very good job, but is also an individually
very skilled player that can't play to his own potential
while doing it. I'm sure that situation is frustrating for him.
We also have two to three more vocal raiders who
will back up raid lead a few mechanics, but not
much more than that. Even from the bench I, and
I'm aware this is probably a personal issue. Am unable
to go into a test raid run and give any

(01:16:54):
level of respect to an outside raid leader I've never
met before. It feels like that role is completely not
suitable for that when they need to immediately be a
leadership role whose voice is the one we hear the
most often. I think of pro sports where you may
just swap a coach at any time, but even then
that coach has experience and a reason to be there.
I struggle to accept that a player raid leading a
guild hundreds of world ranks behind us is actually going

(01:17:14):
to be beneficial for our prog and any player who's
at a higher level than us isn't joining our teams
twenty first when they can just stay with their current team,
who will happily accept that buff I imagine if Max
tried to bring in a successor as a raid lead
that wasn't a player at that level ever, could they
ever integrate? In Sure, Max hasn't played a character at
a world first killed in several tiers now, but isn't
the knowledge that he did it with the best of

(01:17:35):
them still part of the core respect? In his calls
of strategies. Am I just a change hater? Patios and
there's a there's Anna over the O there, so I'm
trying to pronounce that puddio.

Speaker 3 (01:17:45):
Wait real quick, so what guild ranks is to be
trying to recruit a twenty first mash?

Speaker 2 (01:17:51):
The whole premise of this is crazy. I didn't know.
I know, I know guilds did twenty first man, but
I didn't know that they try to recruit specifically twenty
or maybe they don't. And this, I mean, this person's
asking can you do this basically? And I short answer
is no, just straight up. The answer to this is no,
Like you can't. Like your raid leader of your guild
is like so entwined with the like personality in the

(01:18:14):
atmosphere of the guild that like any if any of
you who raid in a guild that has a prominent
raid leader, if you could imagine you go to your
next raid and your guild and someone you have never
met before that is not like this guy said, that
isn't extremely experienced, Like the coach analogy is like this
guy's done this for many years and knows exactly what
he's doing. He's won a championship or whatever, like you

(01:18:34):
end up recruiting someone who knows they're doing. Like, for example,
if I came in did your raid, you might be like, Okay,
maybe i'll listen to this person because he might know
what he's talking about, right, But like, you're not going
to he mentioned even in here, you're not going to
recruit someone to come down guild ranks to twenty first
man your guild in progression specifically, that is, maybe it's
someone's friend, but like, it's not a thing going back

(01:18:56):
to the original thing. Imagine a completely different person that
is not more more credible than your regular raid leader
raid leading. It would be fucking weird. It would be
such a different vibe.

Speaker 1 (01:19:08):
Uh.

Speaker 2 (01:19:09):
I think it's just a complete non starter. I was
trying to think of a business equivalent where like a
company doesn't hire a CEO from within, they recruit And
companies do this all the time where they they get
CEOs that have been CEO's other places, right because they
have that experience. This is not super relatable to that. Yeah,
I don't short answer, no, I don't think you can

(01:19:30):
do this. The the idea makes sense, Yeah, we have
a great I mean, why we do it at this
level is like I can be way more of a
raid leader when I'm not playing the game, and whoever's
playing the game in my place can Like if you
find someone as good, can do better than you because
you're just simply not using any of your band with
the raid lead. Right. But so the concept of wanting
a twenty first man purely for performance makes sense, but

(01:19:54):
it needs to be someone from within that you know,
like even me, Like if I wanted to raid and
we brought someone not from our guild to come raid lead,
Like there's so much that goes into raid leading, Like
it's not just like, oh, anyone can raid lead if
you just don't have to play the game. At the
same time, you could have a bunch of people trying
to be a twenty first man that doesn't really know
what goes into actually leading a group of people through
content that you just wouldn't even be effective at that.

(01:20:18):
So you need someone who's an effective aid leader, which
it sounds like you already have. They just want like
the slight benefit of being outside the raid, So no,
don't do it. Also at that it works for me
because like we're doing this at this level and we're winning,
and like I do whatever it takes to win. But
like for most people, being a twenty first man would
totally ruin your love for the game. You should not
want people to do that. It's some like weird top

(01:20:39):
level thing that came from extreme optimization that shouldn't like
ideally should not be copied except for extremely rare circumstances
where like you have someone who's a really great raid
leader that has been there before, that doesn't want to
play anymore but wants to show up and hang out
with the boys that actually lead. But like, outside of
that extremely rare and specific scenario that I know has

(01:21:00):
existed before, it's it's cooked. Don't do it. It's so
your guild will be slightly worse maybe, but like it's
just it's not worth it's not feasible.

Speaker 1 (01:21:09):
Yeah.

Speaker 3 (01:21:10):
I only have two anecdotes. One is back when I
rated in in the shadow Lands the Jailer tier, the
guild that I was with recruited a twenty first man
and wait.

Speaker 2 (01:21:22):
Wait wait so you were rating in a guild that
had a raid the.

Speaker 3 (01:21:25):
Year yeah, and they re created Yeah yeah, so they
they they intentionally recruited someone who was like there to
just twenty first man, and it actually didn't go well
at all. So like at first it was like it
was going okay, but people just didn't respect this guy,
Like they just didn't like the way he was calling stuff.
Like they they straight up just like are like who
the fuck is this guy kind of attitude and straight

(01:21:47):
up they had to like let him go. So that
was the first anecdot, and the second one is, I know, uh, drogo,
he actually coaches for other guilds. He's kind of like amercenary,
Like he just helps out these other guilds for like
Golden stuff where he'll like be there for like he's
a very dumb progression and he would go through these

(01:22:07):
other guilds and actually like help them with raid leading
and like let them know what they should be doing.
So that I guess was successful. I mean I wasn't
in these guilds, so I don't know what exactly it's
like for them, but they've had jruggle dobats for like
a couple of tears and they seemed to really enjoy
having that. So maybe if it's like somebody who is

(01:22:30):
actually qualified for a job, and I mean it's kind
of weird because in that situation, it's someone who has
already finished the raid. Yeah, and like you know, that's
not quite the same as having someone who's like there
to actively figure stuff out on the fly. So I
can't really.

Speaker 2 (01:22:48):
Say if you're yeah, like ire where you're used to
a raid leader earlier, right, and then that guy goes
away and now you have this new guy. Yeah, okay,
So first anecdote, Orky, you said, yeah, so, so part
of being an effective raid leader is having to be

(01:23:10):
the person that will have some confrontation, not being an asshole,
but like someone's doing something really wrong and it's because
they're doing it lazy, and you see that you need
to call that out for multiple reasons. But a short
way to say it while still in the confines of
the podcast is like people are going to talk about
it after raid behind this person's back if it's not
fucking addressed. So someone has to do it. You have

(01:23:31):
to do it, right. So, but what how do you
confront or address things in a raid that maybe are
not the easiest thing to do with a group of
people that do not know and have played with you
and respect you. It's nonsense, like you can't you can't
do that, Like, like, no one's gonna get criticized by
some person that you recruited from a lower ranked guild,
become raid lead your guild that you have never played

(01:23:52):
with before. They're not going to take that. Well. It
requires respect, both them respecting you and also them knowing
that you respect and that just that process had not happened,
It could not have happened yet. So you when you
started saying that anecdote, first of all, is fascinated because
you basically have experienced something that this person directly asked.

Speaker 3 (01:24:10):
Yeah, literally literally this situation.

Speaker 2 (01:24:12):
Yeah, I can't believe that, first of all. Second, it
is as soon as you started talking, I was like this,
I bet this is a fucking disaster because I just
can't I cannot imagine it going well at any guild
rank when they are coming from below your guild rank
and you do not know this person, and then above
the whole drogo thing. Yeah, if you can pay someone
to show up from a higher guild rank to help
you again, a more credible have done this before person,

(01:24:35):
that could work. And I'm but I just don't know
how many people are doing that. You know, who wants
to do that?

Speaker 1 (01:24:44):
Yeah, I think it's like the coach analogy there's just
not coaches and Wow, except for like a few people.
There's not like an ecosystem around it. People that do
it do it because they love their guild and that's
like always the reason pretty much. And then yeah, sometimes
like yeah, you could luck into it as a guild,
but I don't think you can. Uh, I don't think
you can plan for it. I think that you just

(01:25:05):
you need to assume that you're never going to be
able to recruit a twenty first and either decide you're
going to live without it, or you know, it gets
somebody to step up. But I don't think I don't
think there's really an alternative.

Speaker 2 (01:25:14):
Like, is there a person out there that doesn't play
this game at a high level, doesn't want to, but
like understands the game really smart and they specifically love
the strategy of Wow, and they don't like that you
just copy a race world first video And they're the
exact kind of person, which is good where like Late
and Farm, they're the person who comes up with that
new strat that is now better than what we did

(01:25:34):
because the parameters have changed. You have way more gear,
you've been turbo boosted, the boss has been nerve, you
have a scaling raid buff and they find it fun
to make the best strat for your specific guild, and
they're very talented at that. That person could be really
valuable to a lot of guilds and they would not
have even needed to play at that level. But you
would have to be so fucking smart to like actually

(01:25:57):
do that and have the experience without playing it that
level or even close to it yourself, you know. And
then that's completely removing the how you mesh with a
group of people and how you actually that's more of
a strategist rather than a raid leader. Those may not
be the same role, right, Like developing strategy and being
an effective raid leader. Can can can both be the
same person, and they can both be totally different, right,

(01:26:19):
different skill sets. You there's a lot more required. It
just sounds like something that like, and I'm just making
this up, like a thousand guilds in the world, just
any thousand, there's like one guild where this has happened
or potentially happened, because it just sounds so there's so
many things preventing it from being like a logical thing
you would do.

Speaker 3 (01:26:40):
I could see it working if it's somebody who grows
into the role over like over tears honestly, because I
mean you kind of just need that synergy between the
raid leader or like if a person calling stuff and
the raid and it's just kind.

Speaker 2 (01:26:57):
Of the same. Yeah, yeah, why do they care? They
don't know these people, they're not their friends.

Speaker 1 (01:27:02):
Yeah, you don't really get anything out of twenty first thing,
Yeah exact. I mean I guess you could if you
could become the twenty first of like a top ten
guild or something like, maybe there's some glory at that,
but like you know what, it's like, Oh, I.

Speaker 3 (01:27:14):
I how do you find someone like yeah, four.

Speaker 1 (01:27:16):
Days a week to raid lead a World one hundred
and twentieth guild and like I don't get to play
the game thinks you know, I don't really know these people,
but I get to have been their coach when they
finish the tier and then like what they like, get
me see afterwards or something like that. Like that doesn't
I don't know. I just it just doesn't seem like
there's really a value proposition that makes sense for the

(01:27:37):
person doing it unless they randomly happen to like love
twenty first thing, and those people are just I don't
know few and far between.

Speaker 3 (01:27:46):
Yeah, they would have to have some type of intensive,
like you would have to pay them or some shit.

Speaker 1 (01:27:50):
Yeah, yeah, that that could work, right, like if you
if there was money involved. That's probably part of the
reason why there are coaches and professional sports is because
you make money doing it.

Speaker 3 (01:27:57):
What It's kind of like the Drogo situation, right, like
you just got to recruit some money who is willing.

Speaker 1 (01:28:01):
To Yeah, yeah, so you find somebody from a better like, yeah,
you try and get them to MRK that that could
be the path. Yeah.

Speaker 2 (01:28:09):
There's another part of this at the bottom where they said,
imagine if Max tried to bring in a successor as
a regage that wasn't a player at that level? Ever,
could they ever integrate in I'm sure Max has played
a character in the World First killed in several tiers now,
but isn't that knowledge that he did it with the
best I'm still part of it, So that's that's another thing.
So that kind of feeds into itself. I could not
have been an effective raid leader at a World first

(01:28:31):
level had I not played the game at that level,
because by doing it as a player, you go through
a lot of individual problem solving that makes you learn
how to problem solve things in World of Warcraft, and
you could not have done that without being a player.
Part of it is that too, like like if I
if I have to like tell some people some real shit,
like again not being an asshole, but like addressing something
while someone is maybe reads a chat and they're being

(01:28:53):
flamed by one hundred thousand people and they're already emotionally
kind of on edge, and you have to address something
about the way they're playing. That's not easy to do
if they don't respect you as a player. There is
absolutely no way that that is going to go any
way other than terribly. It's just how It's just simply
how it is. But maybe now I've just raid led

(01:29:15):
as a twenty first man for so long that someone
could join the guild and have never played with me before,
which is actually plenty of people in this guild now,
and they've just known that I'm good at specifically this,
So maybe it doesn't matter how good of a player
I was because they that never interact with them, but
they know people who have played with me and stuff
like that. But I think the real answer to the
question is I never would have been in this position
and never would have been qualified for or been any
good at it had I not played at that level.

(01:29:37):
With the game being relatively recent.

Speaker 3 (01:29:41):
In general, I will say it is probably better to
get someone who can help with figuring out I mean,
basically doing all the officer duties. I know, when you
are reacting to the Shindig video, he was like showing
the whole spreadsheets and like, you know, people's cool downs

(01:30:03):
and stuff like. I feel like that would be more
effective to have somebody who can manage all that, like
figure out all the sigmens, et cetera. But again, do.

Speaker 2 (01:30:13):
Like what watching You're like watching a video and just like, dude,
who does that? By the way, I was still so
surprised from that from that video, Like who goes through
our kill video and not only does our movements and
our positionings and our like general raid ish cool downs
like rally and barrier and stuff, but like who goes
through and finds out exactly when we used combust and

(01:30:36):
and true shot And you know what I'm saying, Like
that's that's the part that's like that is so time consuming.

Speaker 3 (01:30:42):
Yeah, I mean I think a lot of people actually do,
but now I'm not sure. Like in the gills I've
been in at least if they have. I don't mean draws,
you guys, it's.

Speaker 2 (01:30:49):
On an individual level. Does your DH look at this person,
looks up this timings. It's not one person going on.

Speaker 1 (01:30:57):
We have like one person doing it for healer stuff.
And then I think beyond that is mostly just yeah,
everybody doing it. I think that's so.

Speaker 3 (01:31:05):
Do you have like set cool downs for like say
like Gally wakes ads or something and like.

Speaker 1 (01:31:12):
No, no, we like.

Speaker 3 (01:31:15):
Or some shit.

Speaker 1 (01:31:16):
We go in there and like, uh, most people have
planned a little bit in advance, and a lot of
that is like you you watch the POV of the
liquid player playing your back and just you know.

Speaker 2 (01:31:29):
I also don't think I don't think you actually should
do this, by the way, like I think most people
who play this game at a relatively competent level, like
early ish to mid mythic progression like you know how
to like like basically we approach every fight like you
go in and you use your dps CDs on cool
down and then for some reason that may not be
what you do, but there's a reason for that. But

(01:31:50):
the reason why we did that maybe we were holding
a CD for this because we need enough to get
through it. You get to the boss three weeks later
with way more eye level, you no longer have to
hold that cool down. And if you're just blind copying
where we used our CDs, you're kind of missing the
point right and you're not are you really losing anything
on your first poll? Just trying to rip an oncol down?
Like I mentioned this on the stream, he said, like,

(01:32:11):
I was surprised at this, Shindi guy, I'm surprised the
preparation we went in and we had all of these
cooldowns mapped, and I asked my chat, I'm like, wait,
like raid defensive cooldowns and they're no, like literally every
personal use and like offensive coold on usage, and I'm like,
that's crazy. We don't do that at all, Like that
resource does not exist for our players. That is all
a personal problem solving thing that all of them figure

(01:32:31):
out individually. And I was really surprised that people copy
that word for word, bar for bar.

Speaker 1 (01:32:37):
I don't think that's standard. I don't know, maybe it is, but.

Speaker 2 (01:32:40):
My chat was making it sound like it was. I
don't know what guild level that starts at, but in my.

Speaker 1 (01:32:44):
Guild, we don't. We definitely don't do like that degree
of it. We come in with a plan for healer CDs.
We have like a and that includes you know, AMZ
Darkness that kind of stuff like those. We have a
spot where those are planned to be used. But other
than that, people are if they're planning their own offensives,
it's on their own, you know, for cognizance or and
same with their personals as well. Like that's you know, well.

Speaker 3 (01:33:07):
You guys at least have like raid plans, right, like
like where everyone's going to position and uh beyond, like
what ads.

Speaker 1 (01:33:16):
We had one for Galleywicks, but like it's not like
I don't think we had one for Muggsy. For Muggsy.
It's just like you know, the week Aura and then
the note and like yeah, I guess, I guess. Thing
is like you default, we defaulted our note to just oh,
here's what Liquid's note was, right, let's start, let's start
by plugging in all of our same players as that, right,

(01:33:36):
and that, But then you you kind of do that
learning process of like oh that's why this is this way,
or like oh, we have an extra evokre so we
should do this instead or whatever right, Like that is
the process.

Speaker 2 (01:33:47):
I guess what you could do now, is you now
that like there's these note add ons where you like
create these little reminders for yourself. I wonder if that's
another thing people copy. They like go through and look
at the perspective of the like basically the role that
they're playing.

Speaker 3 (01:34:00):
Yeah, that's a large reason why it's copied. It is
because like it's very easier to just.

Speaker 1 (01:34:04):
Yeah, like I think a lot of people but we
don't even we don't mandate that in my guild or anything.
It's just like it's just I think a lot of
people will start to do Yeah, you just want to
you just default, like like you you know, coming into
you come into the Boss and your default is use
your CDs on CD. We come into the Boss and
our default is use our CDs when Liquid use their CDs, right,
because like both of those are just smart defaults given
what we both know.

Speaker 2 (01:34:25):
Yeah, someone someone's gone through the long period of time
honing whether that's the right decision or not, you could
probably trust it's a good place to start. Yeah.

Speaker 1 (01:34:32):
Yeah, And then like you know, obviously some some of
the time it's like, oh, well, our cop is different.
We shouldn't do this, or like, oh the boss has
been nerved for pushing a different time, we shouldn't do this, right,
but like it's better than starting with nothing.

Speaker 3 (01:34:42):
Yeah, it's also want a certain progression time, Like you
want time. You don't want to figure out all these
stuff in Raid. And I feel like a higher level
you play, the more personal figuring out there is. And
you know when you when you're at a little level,
it's like, well, can't really expect Timmy to just know
when to press parkskin, so just let him know when

(01:35:04):
he has to press it.

Speaker 2 (01:35:05):
Yeah, you know what. A very weird anecdote that might
be relevant to this that I can think of is
when we killed Drestagatha nilotha uh echo in like a
Razor World first conversation with Roger, I remember him saying, like,
the biggest mistake they made is one of their made trials,
Like watched our kill while they were killing rowden, and
they copied every single time of when we killed like

(01:35:30):
each worm or tentacle on that boss and and they
just their strat was okay, well they killed this in
sixteen polls, So we're just gonna like make sure all
this stuff dies at the same time, but we just
totally fucking yoloed the boss and like none of it
made sense. So he said, like they killed in seventy poles,
and he said the reason for that was most of
that time we were just trying to copy what you

(01:35:51):
guys did, but it made no sense. So we were
just like like we were just like just doing the
wrong thing. So I think you could kind of take
that from this, Like there's gonna be situation there's a
certain point in farm where if you just copy our
shit word for word, bar for bar, you're just going
to be doing something that doesn't make sense. You know,
you have to like kind of translate it to what
works for your guild. But I think it's a good

(01:36:13):
starting point though. But if you guys want to have fun,
by the way, figure that out for yourself. I don't know,
like how big of a deal is it, Like if
you're a demon hunter on the last boss, do you
really need to know like the exact every note that
was given. I don't know. I know you want to
kill bosses fast, and you care about your guild ranking
and you want to be prepared, and all of that
makes sense. It's just like the most fun thing in
this game is figuring out stuff and playing the game

(01:36:36):
at a high level, and by doing that, you're kind
of robbing yourself of the first part of that.

Speaker 3 (01:36:41):
Yeah. Well, so this kind of goes back to what
I was saying earlier with the whole M plus meta thing, right,
Like a lot of people just don't want to They
just want to copy. That's just kind of just wild
players in general. They just kind of want to know
what to do. They just give them the sauce, right, like,
let them know the build, let them know they're cool
down timings, let them know how they should be playing
for their class, or like what route they should be
doing all that. It's just kind of like the standard nowadays.

(01:37:03):
I don't know when this starts to becoming a thing.
Maybe it's always been in while, but it's much more
prevalent these days. And I mean you are right, like
a lot of times what's being done early in progression
is probably wrong. Anyone who plays at a really high
level knows this. When they're analyzing deps logs, like they'll

(01:37:23):
see if that like, oh, they're always popping cool downs
at this point, but deeper into the farm, when people
like figure out better timings. They actually do so much
more damage if they send at these other times instead.

Speaker 1 (01:37:36):
Yeah, if you do the prom everywhere, like it's there,
they're often optimized for gear and you know, pre nerves
and stuff that just don't make sense anymore. So you
should not continue to copy them. But you know, you
got this thing actually during farm where everybody's like, hey,
you know it's going to be annoying to to try
and relearn this. Let's just do it the wrong way
because that's how we used to do it, and like
that's still easier. So yeah, I don't know. I think

(01:37:58):
it's a good muscle though that guild should work on
is like if you can now make a push, you
should learn how to make that push, and like that's
sort of like a progression, you know, warm up during farm. Anyways,
a very long answer to a good question. Good luck
out there without your twenty first that is gonna be
it for us.

Speaker 2 (01:38:15):
Though this week, as soon as I saw the question,
I was like, oh, this they're asking about twenty first, man,
Like this is another like raid thing. It's not gonna
Its actually ended up being a pretty adjecting question that.

Speaker 1 (01:38:26):
I was allo surprised as I was reading it, I
was like, oh man, this is going to be a
bad question, but no, it was a good question.

Speaker 2 (01:38:30):
So oh Also shout out or sorry to civilian raid
leader who we very wrongly accused of posting a stupid
raid buff question like a year ago we were acting
that just never happened. So yeah, all.

Speaker 1 (01:38:43):
Good, we wrongly accused it. That's right, Yeah, me all equally.

Speaker 2 (01:38:48):
Yeah, all right, Later gabors

Speaker 1 (01:39:01):
Do

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Ep. 73 - We predicted the Future

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.css-14f5ked{margin:0;word-break:break-word;display:-webkit-box;-webkit-box-orient:vertical;box-orient:vertical;-webkit-line-clamp:2;overflow:hidden;}Ep. 73 - We predicted the Future