Ep. 74 - PATCH 11.2 ANNOUNCED - The PoddyC

Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:00):
Hey, welcome to episode seventy four of the POTTYC. Dark
Days for us here because Blizzard is cracking down on
us joining and then leaving dungeon groups. So if I'm
a little distracted during this episode is because I'm I'm
getting my last hurrah and I'm in the group finder
right now. I'm trying to just get to some dungeon groups,
get to the first boss, maybe the second, and then
cause a wipe and leave for old time's sake while

(00:22):
I still can.

Speaker 2 (00:24):
Yeah, we are no levers after aw them.

Speaker 1 (00:25):
That's right. Vicariously, what do you guys think of the Blizzard?
They're gonna take a swing at the levers in eleven
point two with a system that marks you as a lever.
That's the punishment. Scarlett letter, Yeah, in the group finder.
I actually think it's a really smart way, Like it's
a social problem and it's a social solution by putting
it in the group finder like that. The thing that

(00:48):
I'm a little bit worried about is so it has
to happen multiple times for you, like there's a pattern, right,
it's not just one instance of this. My question is
what percentage of leaving is done by people who do
it often enough that it's like a pattern that they
could easily get detected, because I think League had this
problem where the toxic behavior, once you cut out the

(01:11):
most toxic few percent, there was still a lot of
toxic behavior being done by people who aren't usually toxic.
But if you're just toxic one out of every ten,
one out of every twenty games, that's still often enough
that you run into it all the time as a player.
But then if we try to punish that, it's going
to have to be you know, strict enough that one
or two leaving incidents will have to be you know,

(01:33):
highly likely to get you that mark. So that's the
part that I personally, I'm a little bit worried about.
If that's true for a wow as well, what.

Speaker 3 (01:41):
Do you think, derk?

Speaker 2 (01:43):
Yeah, anyone who plays molbos know that this type of
system can usually lead to people being held hostage, you know,
the whole f F fifteen right or like you know
f F or I will troll or you know, like
be toxic just like some behavior that like people Basically,

(02:06):
if people want to be assholes, if they're gonna be
assoles regardless.

Speaker 3 (02:08):
Yeah, if you're going to vote to abandon and then
the vote doesn't go through. What's stopping that person from
just actually going afk, you know, and like they're breaking
your run in it either way.

Speaker 1 (02:19):
Yeah, at least the fact that you don't get punished
after one instance makes this a little bit less likely
to be because like f F or I a troll
or like you know, threatening to troll unless somebody else dodges.
Those kind of things are super effective because one bad
game you know already starts ramping you penalties in the league.

(02:41):
But if in Wow, you know, good players who are
nice and kind and angels and good citizens run into
a griefer, they can just leave because it'll be their
only leave on their on their record, right, So it
only the only time where it would be a problem
of other people griefing you and putting you in that
awkward position of like should I leave and take this
black mark on my name? Is like that can only

(03:02):
be a problem for you if it happens often enough,
because if it just happens once, they have no power
over you.

Speaker 2 (03:09):
Yeah, I would say the ever problem is if someone
just like needs to go right and they can't comfortably
leave the group. Yeah, so you know that happens.

Speaker 1 (03:21):
Like, you know what percentage of your keys does that happen?
And how many are you gonna have to leave? Like
if you leave one out of every ten keys, are
you going to get this mark on you? One out
of every fifteen, one of every five, Like what are
they going to calibrate this too? Because if it's like
one out of every ten, I mean, do you really
have to leave one out of every ten keys for
legit reasons? Not really, right? Not usually?

Speaker 3 (03:41):
I mean also like yeah, let's say one out of
ten keys, one and a twenty one out of fifty.
You thought you had time to do a key, but
it turns out or something came up, right, you know,
some emergency or something urgent you have to leave. You
can just type in the in the chat, like you know,
hey guys, I'm voting to disband, but actually something just
came up and I have to go, right, And then

(04:01):
like they just be like, well, I mean shit, that
guy has to go anywhere. He might just be bricked.
That's unlucky. That's now. The problem is that's kind of
hard to tell the difference between that and someone who's
just saying that. But they're just they just don't want
to be in the key anymore, right, you know, there's
nothing you can do against that. I still think it's
I mean, them doing something is better than nothing at all.
No one really likes actual levers. I don't think a

(04:21):
lot of innocent people are going to be punished with this,
but I could be proved wrong. And it's one of
those things where the theory of what Blizzard is trying
to do makes sense, but how it plays out in
practice you just never know, right, So interested to see
how it plays out. But I think it's better than
doing nothing.

Speaker 1 (04:35):
Yeah.

Speaker 2 (04:35):
Yeah, it is interesting because they have mentioned this. How
many patches ago was it? Because remember when they were
trying to ban leavers.

Speaker 1 (04:42):
It was like season one of this expansion, right.

Speaker 3 (04:45):
Yeah, which this doesn't affect, by the way, because that
was in Heroic Yeah. Even if it was in Mythic zero,
which is also another lever situation like this won't. This
is only in a mythic plus key where you put
in a keystone, so it wouldn't even affect those things. Yeah.

Speaker 2 (04:59):
I kind of just wonder, are like, why they need
to take this measure when they were already taking action
to begin with. But I mean I do like the
whole branding players with a scarlet letter or some type of.

Speaker 4 (05:14):
You.

Speaker 2 (05:14):
This person might be a problem to play with. And
I wonder if they can extend that. Yeah, yeah, like
I wonder if thinking I guess the net or two
some type of shadow band system.

Speaker 1 (05:26):
Yeah, or like this person's known patter when they sign
up to your raid, like they've got good parts.

Speaker 2 (05:30):
Yeah, yeah, you know.

Speaker 1 (05:31):
They're known patter. They get that mark on their on
their application.

Speaker 2 (05:35):
Or the opposite too, like this person's look great tank,
great person.

Speaker 1 (05:39):
This person's a mechanics oriented player like the or you
could do it like the honor system in league. I
guess that's a I don't know, I guess my thing
with this I I kind of think it's more likely
that this won't do enough rather than it doing too much.
I kind of think it's more likely that, like they're
gonna make it so not sensitive to avoid the you know,

(06:01):
abuse cases that might exist, that it just isn't actually
going to catch that high a percentage of toxic behavior,
especially if my theory is right that the toxic behavior
happens largely among players who aren't usually toxic and uh,
and then it's like it would be pretty hard to
mark those players without having a very you know, low

(06:21):
threshold for putting that mark on people.

Speaker 3 (06:24):
Yeah, you don't want to mark the people who didn't
do anything? Yeah, right, like that that's the at all came.
But to answer your question, dorky like why or at
least I think why why? Why would blizzerd do this?
They already said they were a banning leavers. Either that's
not a very effective way whatever, that it's hard for
them to find them and what they were doing before
wasn't good enough, or they're offloading the work. Right, They're like,

(06:45):
we can just let the community police themselves by putting
in this very simple thing, right, and then we don't
have to worry about trying to find exactly who's leaving
and who's not, because I bet there's a bunch of
false reports with that, you know, so I've met that,
like like them actually trying to do that. Didn't we
all respond when they were like we're gonna ban leavers
and we were kind of like, how the fuck are
they going to do that? Yeah, you know, like how
do you how do you know outside of like people

(07:05):
reporting people? But then that could be bad faith actors
to reporting, so like it's really really difficult. So they
they probably just saw this as probably a better solution
to that. My assumption would be like that wasn't very effective.

Speaker 1 (07:17):
Yeah, I think any system that's like automated has got
to be better than any rely on them to manually
ban people because that's just like season over season, their
passion for doing that is going to wax and way.
So having an automated system I think. I think it's
a step in a good direction. I don't know. I'm
cautiously optimistic that this is going to make things better,

(07:38):
but I'm somewhat pessimistic that it's not going to make
them a lot better. That's a that's my current take
on this, but I'm glad. I'm also glad that they're
doing something.

Speaker 2 (07:50):
Nope, agreed, Okay, let's.

Speaker 1 (07:52):
Move on to other eleven point two stuff. Do you
guys want to tackle the high speculation of a third
DH spec Oh.

Speaker 3 (08:03):
I'm fully on board. I don't even think it's seculation.
I think it's like money back guarantee.

Speaker 1 (08:06):
Money back guarantee. Yeah, it looks compelling. There's like a
void DH meta thing that's out so.

Speaker 2 (08:13):
I haven't looked at it. Why exactly are people speculating
like a raid boss, right.

Speaker 3 (08:17):
I might be missing a few things, but yeah, there's
a raid boss, which, by the way, has this like
really weird optional tag to it. But I have a
theory about what that is about too. So the boss
is a demon Hunter Council boss. There's three demon Hunters,
and one of them is just the most havoc havic
demon hunter. Their abilities are literally blade dance and other
havoc things. The other boss, the second boss, is a

(08:39):
Vengeance demon Hunter, which just has all the vengeance toolkit
just straight up. And then there's a third There's a
third demon Hunter that just has an entirely different toolkit
of cool looking mechanics, And it's like, Okay, that's that's
first of all. I think that alone is just like
I'm ninety percent sure that this is happening. Plus there's
a precedent for this, right, like they did this last expansion.

(09:01):
Then in the middle of a patch, not on the release,
they like kind of shadow dropped us speck right they
announced it. I don't remember when did they announce ag Was.

Speaker 1 (09:09):
It after it was after died? Right?

Speaker 3 (09:14):
It was after Sarkar had died okay, and then they
announced it to come out in the point five I
think it was at point seven one of the Okay,
so there's the point for that. Yeah, I'd be willing
to bet a ton that it's either when this boss dies,
specifically the Shadow Council boss, or when the end boss
dies or something like. That's going to be The new
hype announcement for eleven point five is there's a there's
a new demon Hunter speck uh. Also, the the boss

(09:39):
is listed as optional. There's a bunch of speculation going
on with that right now. Do you know anything more
about that than meat ratnose rather than.

Speaker 1 (09:46):
There's a like the Hall of Fame achievement has been
updated to require you to kill all the bosses now
to get it, except that it's well, it's actually all
it's got seven instances of killing the last boss in
the achievement right now, but there are eight bosses in
the So my guess is that you don't have to
kill that boss for Hall of Fame or anything.

Speaker 3 (10:05):
Okay, that that is not my guess. I although this
is all speculation because who the fuck knows, but until
they clarify it, but that is so strange to me,
that's to be clear, that's never happened before, so they
would just happen. They would just do that out of nowhere, right,
that's in Butcher. That didn't happen. You could you could
go kill Impered or Margoch, but you had to go
back and kill Butcher to like end the race and

(10:28):
also to get the achievement for Heimol. It included Butcher
and Rowden is like an extra mythic boss, totally separate thing.
So this has never happened before. They mentioned the boss
as optional. I heard a theory earlier that in the
DH discord. I don't know who someone could have made
this up, by the way, but it's the thing that
makes the most sense to me that it's going to

(10:48):
take a demon Hunter to summon this boss to make
this boss appear. And the reason it's listed or even
mentioned by Blizzard as optional is you would have to
go through like it's possible in a normal ten man
normal raid. There are groups that clear with normal and
Heroic being their main content, that don't have a demon Hunter.

(11:09):
So you need to have the ability to go to
the last boss to like without going to this boss
because you might not have a demon Hunter that can
summon it, right, you might want to look for it an
behind the group find or whatever, but they're just doing
some like crazy epic lure shit with that that requires
you to have a demon hunter too, and that is
why it's optional at all. But as far as my
assumption is, as far as mythic and the race is concerned,

(11:29):
like completing the raid once they actually update the achievement,
and also for the race, I imagine you're gonna have
to kill every boss and also the boss it drops
really op boots that like interact with the cloak. Yeah,
they're like bonusly like personal looted. It's not even very rare.
And it drops a regular tear piece like just like

(11:51):
it's shoulders or something, just like one of the tier
pieces just drops off this boss, which totally does not
look like what would happen on like an optional encounter.
I it needs to be clarified by Blizzard either way,
but I I am like very off of the idea
because it would just be so random and I don't
understand the logic at all with it. There's just randomly
an optional boss that isn't in the race or isn't

(12:13):
as part of the achievement. It's just't makes sense.

Speaker 2 (12:16):
I'm still of Grannis's opinion. I like, I don't actually know, ever,
but I assume it's also gonna be something where you
don't I mean, why else wouldn't be optional, right?

Speaker 3 (12:24):
We mostly we don't know that it's that they just
mentioned like the word optional somewhere, but I believe. Yeah,
but like that's there's no precedent for that ever existing,
Like it's like just Blizzard ripping that without any explanation.
And the reason I think maybe there isn't any yet,
or maybe why there won't be is it's somehow tied
to how this speck is going to get released, because

(12:45):
like they're obviously not going to talk about that, but
like the whole like we've released a raid and you
can getting to the end boss without having to kill
one of the bosses. That has happened, But but you
don't need to kill this boss to get the miss
thick achievement of killing all the bosses. A mythic that
that is completely that is never nothing like that has

(13:05):
ever existed. I think, why would that randomly happen? Right?
Like that's the part I can't get behind.

Speaker 2 (13:09):
Yeah, here's a question probably if it was optional, Are
you guys going to kill in the race the word first?

Speaker 3 (13:14):
Well that's so I started thinking about that earlier on stream,
and I basically like was racking my brain and I
ran through so many situations and I have no fucking
clue I am. Well, so number one, the people in
the race, like we have to support ourselves, so like
removing content is something we would not choose to do.
There's also regardless of like there's only like a couple
of guilds in the world that raid enough that could

(13:37):
even ever potentially win. Let's just say like four or
five or something like that. So like if those four
or five guilds were like, hey, it'd be great for
us if we had eight bosses of content instead of seven, right, Like,
let's all, it doesn't matter what order you killed them in,
but the race to world first, as the community deems,
it is going to be like, whoever kills these five bosses,
And yeah, maybe you'd risk some random world eighth guild

(13:57):
or something like going for the last boss instead of
killing this one, but like those guilds, yeah, there's no way,
So like, uh, you know that. That's That's what I
was like, so something like that. But there's no way
the top guilds would be like, you know what, you
don't have to kill this boss. We're just gonna remove
a boss from the race world first content this season,
and it's about rushing the last boss first. Why would
you do that intentionally as a business case. It's just

(14:19):
terrible not to mention fun. It's actually it'd be hard
to believe, but we actually find it really fun to
kill bosses, and with a bunch of people watching them
and stuff like that, you know, like like why would
you choose not to unless it was like unkillable or something.

Speaker 1 (14:32):
Yeah, my suspicion is it kind of doesn't really matter
too much. What like, even if everybody decided that they
didn't want that, it wasn't going to be mandatory to
kill it. It's still very likely that the same guild
that would kill all eight first, right, Like, there wouldn't
be there wouldn't be different guilds that got eight out
of eight versus killing the last boss first, because like,
after you killed the last boss from kill this one. Right.

Speaker 3 (14:54):
So maybe a piece of information that might be interesting
to you is when we have law a few races
or has still been in contention for winning them. There's
like a certain amount of time we can be at
this facility, and they they're like sometimes they're rescheduling our
flights when this ends, when we lose or win, and
like we've killed a boss after losing on the same day,
and then they're like, you're flying out tomorrow, Like we're

(15:17):
not changing those flights. So like, if you if you
don't kill this tonight, you're flying home. You don't raid
for two days from now, and you could potentially lose
if it mattered to you, like world second or whatever
because of this. So like, imagine all the race, all
the hype is to kill the last boss. They they're
like they would almost certainly fly us home before we
killed that last one, right if it was truly decided

(15:39):
that that one wasn't part of this.

Speaker 1 (15:42):
Yeah, but even in that case, like would that mean
nobody has killed it? That would have to be like
a butcher situation where it was so hard that like
you didn't have a track because this is it's gonna
be what like it's not the second last boss or
anything like that, right, Like it's in the middle of
the raid.

Speaker 3 (15:54):
It's in the middle of the raid.

Speaker 1 (15:55):
Yeah, so like presumably you know, I say, it's a
two week tier like usual, but this is probably a
boss that can die on with week one gear. So
like if you don't prog it, somebody else probably already
will have and you'll be able to come back with
more gear and do it in like twenty poles or something,
even if it's kind of a hard boss, right, like
it say Sprocket was the optional boss, which is very

(16:17):
early in the raid for that, right, I mean.

Speaker 3 (16:18):
It's the exact same spot in the raid technically as
where this boss is. So Sprockett is a great comparison.

Speaker 1 (16:24):
Which was also like a generationally hard boss. But say
you didn't kill Sprocket week one, which you didn't, but
week two you came in and you know, after Galiwick's
how long do you think it would take you to
go back and kill Sprocket Now that say twelve guilds
in the world had all done it and you have
their videos and stuffy.

Speaker 3 (16:43):
How many I think Another interesting thing is how many
guilds are so preconditioned now to just do the strat
and the thing that's been laid out for them. Who's
going to be the first guild that doesn't go to
the boss that we're on, and we have chose to
go to and look at our VOD and Strat decides
to be the guild that's going to problem solve and
go to this boss first, because kind of the first

(17:04):
guild that does that outside of the race is the
one that's gonna waste all their time, right, So it's
like it would be fun for you, but objectively you'd
take more time than everyone else because you have now
entered the problem solving process. So I think that's I
don't know if that matters. It's just a fascinating thing
to think about of, like who would actually do that,
what guild rank does it make sense to do that.

Speaker 1 (17:20):
It's also reasonably likely that it's just correct to kill
this boss even if it was optional, Like it would
have to be pretty hard to not be worth killing
given that it drops some pretty funny loote I guess,
you know, if the loot doesn't matter this tier, then
you know, maybe not.

Speaker 3 (17:35):
That's kind of interesting. This is like an okay, like
segue just in general, because like this is not relatable
or matters to anyone who's listening to this as far
as like how you'd interact with the raid. But imagine
it's a fifth boss. It takes eighty to one hundred pulls,
Like that's a lot of time. That is, like you'd
lose a day of progression on the end boss. Is

(17:56):
one potentially one kill of this boss on mythic going
to be worth eighty to one hundred progression polls of
the end boss. I can tell you the answer to
that is almost certainly no, uh, if you don't need
to kill it. But it depends on how hard it is, right,
like would we try it? Would would we do other
bosses and wait for someone to be the fact finder

(18:16):
of Like who wants to actually spend an hour to
figure out? How hard?

Speaker 1 (18:19):
To see? That would be kind of sick? Like I'm
just thinking about this from my perspective. There's a decent
chance if it actually was optional and like the race
guilds agreed it was optional. Which the reason you do
that is because like you don't trust each other, you know,
to if Blizzard says it's optional, and you don't trust
the other guys to not just go for the last boss, right,
like the you're just doing what Blizzard says, right if

(18:39):
they make the achievement to not kill it, for instance, right, like, uh,
presumably you'd be thinking about it, and maybe you know,
if they put if they if they insist that it's optional,
then they kind of can set the tone largely among
the guilds. Obviously you guys could agree differently, but like
you know, it's pretty easy for one guild to defect
from the others. And just I mean, we're going for

(19:01):
We're going for what Blizzard says.

Speaker 3 (19:02):
Is first, right, Yeah, yeah, I mean all this is interesting.
I just feel like, yeah, all it takes is Blizzard
making one post clarifying this obviously very confusing situation, and
they I mean, like for example, just like hey, add
the boss to the achievement and then it's like gig,
you know, it's like, yeah, it just solves everything, or
at least make it.

Speaker 1 (19:21):
But if they wanted to be optional, like that's what
optional means is that you don't have to do it, right, So.

Speaker 3 (19:25):
I'm like, I'm kind of okay it totally The loot
totally doesn't make sense except for the fact that it
has like personal alloted, probably the most OPI item in
the raid. I assume that drops off the boss, So
maybe that supports this argument, but like, is there a
world where they could really cook here? And like the
racial world first is just straight up seven bosses, but

(19:45):
that other boss is so fucking hard and like it
would it's they're not nerve in that shit, like it
would take us weeks, like people are gonna stop watching
and we will have fly flown home before realistically we
were ever going to killed this boss and they just
left it like that because why not, you know, like
now it drops regular basic base eye level, mythic tear shoulders,

(20:09):
like none of that supports this argument, you know, but
I don't know. I wonder if they could do some
maybe maybe the maybe the demon Hunter speck when this
boss dies on Mythic gets shadow dropped that fucking day
and then it just like random. I don't know they
could do They could do a lot of stuff, and
maybe that's why they're not clarifying. I just got home
today and this is all brand new information for me.

(20:30):
I haven't been around for the last two days. But like,
I'm surprised that Blizzard hasn't had to be like here's
how this is going to work, because it is it
is objectively very confusing.

Speaker 1 (20:39):
Dude, even if it was just Sprocket difficulty. If the
race world first guilds weren't doing it, then like a
bunch of non raceor world first gilds might decide to
just go for world first Brocket. Like like if because
Mike Guild we got World twelfth Sprocket, we killed it
the same week you guys did. We're basically on the
same level as you guys. Yeah, all intents and purposes,

(21:01):
And would we have gone for that instead of walking
straight past it to band it, especially if world first
was on the line. I I don't know, that'd be
kind of fun. That could be a kind of fun, Like.

Speaker 3 (21:12):
You know, I guess it depends on the boss. Some
boss are easier to figure out than others, but like
some ass would be so fun to be the guild
figuring it out because you never get a chance to
do that in this game, and that would be really cool.
But you're just like you're so you're just gonna have
dissenters within the guild, you know, Yeah, Like, hey, guys,
we have this video we could get to twenty percent
on this boss in one raid night that we have

(21:33):
a video that they've done all this work for us,
or we could be the one guild that's paving the
way on this boss. Do we value our time or
do we value fun?

Speaker 1 (21:41):
Yeah, because it almost your world rank at the end
of the year world ranks.

Speaker 3 (21:44):
So yeah, exactly. But you have because like, yeah, it's
probably unsurprising to a lot of people listening to this.
Killing bosses where you have to figure them out is
insanely harder than having to, uh, you know, just go
up and kill it with a video. So but it's
also the thing that makes us all this it's extremely fun.
We have a lot more fun than all of you
because we get to do this as well. But like,
it's not realistic that you ever get a chance it is.

Speaker 1 (22:08):
I wonder, I really, I'm curious what they're gonna do.

Speaker 3 (22:10):
I'm so curious. I don't I don't understand. I usually understand.
I don't understand, which makes me believe a lot of
conspiracy stuff.

Speaker 1 (22:18):
Imagine you just okay, imagine if you just if you're
a DH and you ever kill this boss, you can't
spec the new spec because you've betrayed it, right, and
so you can only play the new spec.

Speaker 3 (22:29):
I mean, what if you just need to kill this
boss on any difficulty to unlock the spec right, and
obviously la far normal. It's just like piss easy. So
like literally anyone can just join a group finder and
do it, or it becomes an aspirational goal. But then
they've never done anything like that, you know that that's
also just such a huge They're clearly doing something new here,

(22:49):
I think, unless I guess there is a world where
all this optional stuff gets cleared out somehow, there's just
some lore thing and then they just announce after the
race is over. Hey, by the way, there's this new
spec coming out kind of divog like, yeah, exactly because.

Speaker 1 (23:04):
A little bit like Sark had eben might uh kind
of mechanics and No zero was OG themed the legendary
that dropped them Stark, but like it wasn't directly tied
to OG just came out afterwards.

Speaker 2 (23:15):
Yeah, you know, it feels like we're over analyzing this. Yeah, but.

Speaker 3 (23:21):
It's great podcast content, so it doesn't matter. But we
are one hundred percent over analyzing this because we are
going off of nothing, like like nothing, and the only
thing we do know is that the only information we
have is very weird and confusing. So beyond nothing, we're
probably tricking ourselves.

Speaker 2 (23:37):
I do think it is cool, though, Like the idea
of an optional hard boss kind of like a Millennia
would be fucking awesome. But I think that's one of.

Speaker 1 (23:45):
The less likely things to do. But I agree it
would be.

Speaker 2 (23:47):
Yeah, would be the coolest.

Speaker 3 (23:48):
Yeah, it would be extremely cool, but extremely unlikely. Also
shadow dropping the speck unbelievably unlikely.

Speaker 1 (23:53):
Yeah.

Speaker 3 (23:54):
But but because like that's the exact kind of thing.
What has their emphasis been this whole expansion, Like let's
get people for these point five point seven patches. That
is like they've put so much effort into that. Imagine
them releasing a spec and it's not that like they're
totally going to do that. Also, there's gonna be a
third DH spec. That's sick.

Speaker 2 (24:10):
Yeah, right, was it going to be?

Speaker 3 (24:12):
It looks like well, I mean, just I was looking
at its abilities earlier, it looks I mean, it just
looks like it's going to be like a Melee. It's
just another Melee spec like Void. If they're not going
to give them two tank specs.

Speaker 2 (24:27):
In one class Bro Prece have two healer specs.

Speaker 3 (24:31):
There's no way that I I think the Melee Melee DPS, but.

Speaker 2 (24:36):
Does the ability to use like two handed acts too right?

Speaker 1 (24:39):
I think that was media post.

Speaker 3 (24:43):
It's just gonna it has like it has a blink
instead of fell rush, which is kind of fun. And
then uh yeah, I don't like someone said my stream
was like, do you think it's going to be support?
That's absolutely not Like there's no way, like this doesn't
even fit the fantasy of the Hunter at all. I
think Blizzard cares way too much about that for that
to be how it ends up. Also range like a

(25:04):
fully rangedpec. Also, now there's a bunch of classes in
this game that have multiple melee specs within that class.
That's not like an abnormal thing. I imagine that's what
they'll do.

Speaker 2 (25:13):
I think it needs to be a number TANKSPEC. We're
due for a number tank spec.

Speaker 1 (25:17):
I do think that it kind of explains why the
okay think if you think about that, I had this
cook the DH hero talent specs are kind of like blandish,
uninspired compared to the field, right, Like, compared to the
Hero talents, I would say the dh ones are aggressively mad.

Speaker 3 (25:39):
Like you think they would bring out a new hero talent.

Speaker 1 (25:41):
Well, they have to if they're making a new spec,
they need to like not just make ones right, and
they need to like adjust how ald Roci Reaver and
fels Guard overlap.

Speaker 3 (25:52):
No shot, I don't think, So.

Speaker 1 (25:54):
Okay, well, how how are they going to make a
new spec?

Speaker 3 (25:56):
Then? I don't I don't know, but maybe they just
give it Aldrocci re or in Fellscard. That also works.
But like the idea that they're gonna do a new
hero talent, the idea that like, oh, now is a
vengeed dema Hunter. You've been playing with these two hero
talents the whole expansion, but now you just lose one
of them because we have to create this triangle that
we've created with every other spec. I don't think there's
any way they've done that. Also, this patch you're gonna

(26:16):
have tear sets for specifically those two things, so it
would have to be specifically a next patch thing. I
just think that's so messy that, like you're losing a
hero talent, even if there's some that people don't necessarily
like and they're like, okay, I can lose that whatever.
I just think that's way too messy.

Speaker 1 (26:30):
I think like Fellscard for Havoc and al Drochi for Revengees.
Even though Aldrochi Revenges is good right now, I don't
think it's particularly like good gameplay. So and like, if
they don't do that, how they have to do something
for the hero talent for.

Speaker 3 (26:42):
The one do that, right, because then then that means
all three of them will have the new hero talent
if you just do what you just said.

Speaker 1 (26:50):
No, no, no, because you need to take one away from.

Speaker 3 (26:53):
Each one of those. But then the new spec wouldn't
be able.

Speaker 1 (26:56):
To have, right, Well, okay, so you could leave. You
could leave al Drocci or fels Guard to be the
Havoc Vengeance overlap one, and then one of them becomes
either Havoc or Vengeance plus the it's the only way
another new one that's for the right, So you can they're.

Speaker 3 (27:14):
Gonna make two new hero talents.

Speaker 1 (27:16):
They have to make u No, they make one.

Speaker 3 (27:17):
They have to make one, so Havoc or Vengeance one
of them doesn't get the new one and has to
keep both fels Guard and Aldrochi Reaver for this to
make sense.

Speaker 1 (27:26):
Unless you give Havoc and Vengeance the new one, and
you give and you.

Speaker 3 (27:30):
Don't give the new one to that.

Speaker 1 (27:31):
Oh yeah, that's true.

Speaker 3 (27:32):
So ain't no fucking words.

Speaker 1 (27:33):
It's almost certainly then going to be if they either
they do some weird stuff or they have to take
one of the hero talents away from one of the
existing SPACs.

Speaker 3 (27:42):
Yeah yeah, yeah, so it's again very again this we could,
by the way, we could, and I think we know
this could all be saying just absolute nonsense for the
past like ten to fifteen minutes, doesn't matter. It's still
very interesting and fun to speculate about it. And I
imagine just great podcast contents, exactly what podcasts are for
being exactly.

Speaker 1 (28:01):
The best part. Anytime you're making it up like this
on a podcast, you are running the risk of in
between us saying these inane sentences the podcast getting released,
Blizzard could just explain this stuff and this podcast becomes
so stupid. So hopefully, Frank, when whenever you're listening to this,
get this thing uploaded fast so that we reduce those chances.

Speaker 2 (28:23):
Well, I mean we have information, so it's not actually speculation.

Speaker 3 (28:26):
Yeah, I got accused of that multiple times today. Of course,
you know this thing, uh yeah, uh that was good.
There was also so the havoc thing, okay, uh, we
could talk about the tear sets a little bit, but
I'm interested in what you guys think of. So they're
reworking a few specs, one of which I know Dorky
has tried out, and Brewmaster and they said they were

(28:49):
going to rework Brewmaster in a holy but actually Frost
seems to be getting like significantly more like reworking type stuffs.
And also, like I think Shadow looks like it got
a bunch of a new stuff. Again, I think MM
had a bunch of their stuff moved around. I don't
know exactly which.

Speaker 1 (29:04):
One they probably killed spell Block, Yeah, yeah.

Speaker 3 (29:09):
So we have that to talk about. But also they
added a new empowerability, the second one since slicing wins,
and it's attached to breath of Sanderigosa. And I haven't
been around for the last two days to see people
like trying this on the PTR, but like I thought,
that was like literally the best use of empower that
you can possibly make in theory, Like if it ends
up being if people are listening to this, just so

(29:30):
before I give my take on it, Like what it
does is you can empower it to three and basically
it just has a thirty second breath, which is like
the most uptime of Breath per like just using the ability,
you can empower it to two and it takes forty
five seconds off the CD and it lasts a little
or not as long, but it can line up with
like a minute in fifteen second I think they were
minute and fifteen rotating recently. And then if you empower

(29:51):
it once, it only lasts like eight seconds, but it
takes seventy five seconds off the cool down, so it's
like a forty five second CD. And I think this
is like also you can move while empowering it, so
it's like not as annoying. I think this is like
perfect example. I'm so glad they didn't try to force
a bunch of empowerabilities in the game and they waited
to do it like pretty well because that I don't

(30:14):
I hope it plays out well. Maybe you don't even
use the spell, but like, there's so many fight situations
where it would totally make sense to use all three
of them in theory, and I really hope it plays
out that way. It could be so fun.

Speaker 2 (30:27):
Yeah, So I've played Breath for the past few expansions.
I've seen all iterations of it, like the Shadowlands one
where you play for literally two minute long breaths, and
the more recent iterations where it's like shorter but powerful
been infinite too. Yeah, No, I mean it was literally
infinite back in shadow Lands. I remember when I was
probably in when I was playing Frosty K and I

(30:48):
just had breath for of the entire fight. So it's
had its ebbs and flows. But I would say, I
don't know. I have mixed opinions about this whole empowered breath.
On one hand, it solves the issue of the class
feeling like it's too too much of his identity is
baked into breath. But on the other hand, it kind

(31:10):
of waters down breath. It just sort of becomes like
another cool down VETU press instead of that being your thing.
Does that make any sense?

Speaker 1 (31:22):
I think? So you still get the most value in
if you're using it on the full mode, right, if
you if you don't fall.

Speaker 2 (31:28):
Empowered Oh yes, and no, because it only caps at
thirty right like you can. Yeah, you get game and
make it even longer.

Speaker 1 (31:35):
You get fifteen seconds on a one fifteen CDC, right,
you get more breath per second by empower three in it.

Speaker 3 (31:42):
Yeah, I think the numbers are you get you have
twenty five percent breath up time assuming you use breath
on cool down by using the three empower, and you
have a fifteen percent up time on breath if you
use the one for example, which is like significant, right,
it's almost half the amount of breath uptime, but it
can line up with CDs either way. I think this
is boring and a bad use of empower. If this

(32:03):
becomes true, if you just slam it three every time,
I think that stinks. That's like a bad use of empower.
It's basically like like the evocre empower spells the one.
There are ones where there's a scenario where you would
use one, two, or three and that makes the empower
mechanic great, and then there are scenarios where you just
do one every time or three every time, And in
my opinion, anything that works like that with empower sucks

(32:24):
and it should not be an empowerability. So same thing
with DK. If you use it at one every time,
even though you get less uptime, but it just lines
up with your pillar or something every time, that's boring.
What would be really cool is like if you guys
ever played breath in a key too low situation where
you press breath on a pack and you fucking blast
it and then you just use your two minute cool
down and it didn't live like it would on a
higher key. Bro, you're slamming a one on that shit

(32:46):
every time you do like a little baby pack. You
don't want to hold your two minutes. You slam that shit.
You're in a raid, boss, and you know your two
minutes are coming up, but you're lusting in a minute
and a half, or you're lusting in a minute, and
you're like, man, I don't want to hold my my
two minute cool down for a minute. Okay, cool, my
CD's are up right now. I'm gonna do a little
baby breath with this pillar and I'm gonna actually have
it up with lust. There's scenarios where if you actually

(33:08):
use that too, and you were like kind of adapting
it as you progress a boss, as you get better
at a dungeon, and you're kind of improvising based on
what's happening in front of you, what level your key is,
stuff like that, and there's a scenario where you'd want
to use all three of them, which is proven to
have happened with some empower spells that are currently in
the game that, in my opinion, would be the most
fun version of breath that's existed, or at least the

(33:31):
best designed. That just sounds really fucking cool. Now, all
in theory, right, they could this could all be to
make total sense, like so many things that they've said
they were gonna do before and then it turns out
it just fucking stinks. Right, Maybe it's stinks, I don't know,
but it sounds like it's gonna be really cool.

Speaker 1 (33:47):
Yeah.

Speaker 2 (33:48):
Yeah, it's definitely gonna be one of those. It depends
on the types of fights and how it's designed.

Speaker 1 (33:53):
Yeah, I mean, I think the way that it should
work out best and the way that they've they are
trying to make this true by give the two minute
version the most bang for your buck is like the
sims should be pressing it on two minutes pretty much, right.
If the sims ever aren't pressing it on two minutes
because the lineups with your pillar are better than getting
more uptime of breath per second over an encounter, then

(34:14):
I think this will have failed. But as long as
the sims are pressing it on two minutes and then
you are adjusting based off of oh, this fight has
damage downtime, this fight has a damage, jamp lust is
coming up soon, this pack's going to die soon. All
of these things that you you know, might consider consider
about a fight or a dungeon. Then I think it's
a huge dub. I think it's actually would be like, yes,

(34:36):
they've made empower spells that you use at different numbers before,
but often that's you're kind of following like a guide, right,
and the guide is saying, hey, empower your flame breath
to two in this situation and four in this situation
or whatever. This would be a case of like the
wowhead guide won't really be able to tell you right.
It's like you'd have to go on fight by fight
or because it's not based on your speck, it's based
on this situation entirely. And like the you know, looking

(34:58):
ahead at the next three minute and figuring out where
you're gonna get the most bang for your buck, and
that I think would be super cool. Breath would still
have to be strong feeling, and I think there's definitely
some worry that breath is just gonna get kind of
like Dorky said, like water down.

Speaker 2 (35:11):
If they Yeah, that's my biggest.

Speaker 1 (35:13):
Packed low impact because inherently. This sounds incredibly skill testing,
and typically whenever a Blizzard makes something inherently skill testing,
they realize within zero to one patches that the good
Frosty K's are now doing twice as much damage as
the medium ones, and then they nerve it and they
take the day like they dumb down.

Speaker 3 (35:30):
Yeah, people feel bad because they have to play it.
It's really hard and they don't like it, you know,
all that stuff. But like, I think it's really hard
to tell because they're kind of overdoing Frostyk's entire resource
economy and that it just interacts with breath so directly
that it's just gonna be so hard to know what
breath even feels like to play.

Speaker 2 (35:48):
Yeah, and we're gonna live it would be like basically
respec if.

Speaker 1 (35:51):
You're sending a breath one or a breath to where
breath is going to feel pretty different because you don't
have to you know, squeeze is hard to get a
eight seconds of breath right, Like you just have to
not turbo grief your runic power, whereas with previous versions
of Breath, you always wanted every single bit of runic
power you could optimize out of it. But with this
system where they're capping how long it can last, especially

(36:12):
with the one and two empowers of it, it's gonna
feel different as well, which again, maybe it won't feel
like breath, where you're the minigame of making your breath
last as long as humanly possible is going to be gone.
So that might be a downside if you love that
part of old breath, which I can relate to that,
But I think this is going to add more cool
gameplay than it takes away.

Speaker 2 (36:31):
I do think the max rank breath should allow players
to last for as long as we can, and the
lower level ones should be like, it's not as good
to use, but in certain situations you're gonna want to
use it, right, Like if you're just if you're doing
like stakes and you're not gonna make full use of
your breath, you're just gonna want many breaths for every

(36:51):
set of ads for example. Like I think that would
be a good design.

Speaker 3 (36:54):
I think it's really really hard for them, and there's
a lot of stuff to support. But like I bet
it's infuriating to try to design breath with it ever
being potentially infinite and not knowing exactly how long good
versus medium versus bad players are going to be able
to keep it up and them capping it at a
long duration to where those thirty seconds will still be

(37:16):
fun and they can tune it because they know exactly
what it's going to be, right, they'll tune it for
you keeping it up for thirty seconds, but like keeping
it up for like a good player, if it was
theoretically infinite, could keep it up for like thirty six,
like the best rang ever you get a couple kicks
during it, you can keep it up for forty versus
like the bad player getting twenty. I think is like
kind of even though that is what we love about Breath.

(37:38):
That is what I've loved about Breath. That is also
the thing that has made it made it so polarizing,
right like that, you're directly tying the power of a
cool down to how good you are, which is not
you know, true with basically anything else in the game besides,
like Surrender was definitely like that as well, But I mean,
I guess everything is kind of like that. If you're good,
you're gonna do more damage, but like something directly related
to like how a cool down feels, because like I

(37:59):
you've ever played Breath. You feel fucking amazing When Breath
is up right, you're fucking owning. You're like fighting against
the clock, and then it's over and you're like, ah,
this is boring. Yeah right, And and the bad the
worst you are as a player, the more boring time
you have because the less you have it up. So
it's like it's compounding issue, right, No wonder people wanted
a Blit to be a build so bad because they
just wanted to get away from this. It was so stressful.

Speaker 1 (38:18):
Yeah. I think also if youre a Frosty came in,
it's really good news if your spec doesn't become the
primary PI and lust like scaler, which you would like
if there was a strong infinite breath that really indexed
a lot of your damage into it, that would that
would make you that spec that's like does super well
in those spots where you're you get everything stacked on

(38:40):
you and then you get nerve because of it. So
that exists right now with e Voka, right, yeah, sort of.
I mean, the their dragon range is captain how long
it can be extended. But yeah, getting PI in the
in the opener is is nine day compared to not
getting it.

Speaker 2 (38:54):
I mean, I just don't think it's a problem, Like
i'd much for ever they just give players of option
to play You'll Bled or Breath and just keep it
at that, because like, I don't think they should take
away something from the players who enjoy Breath and for
what it is, or like waterre it down just so
that more players can play it. You should just have options.

Speaker 1 (39:13):
It's fun.

Speaker 2 (39:14):
Yeah, I think, yeah, it'll be fun.

Speaker 3 (39:17):
I'm a Breath enjoyer for sure. But I mean, we're
gonna have these opinions, right, Like, have you ever met
an amazing shadow priest that liked that Surrender was removed? No,
because like they got the most out of that and
they fucking owned and it rewarded their skill expression. Anyone
who's great at Breath is gonna be like, man, I
wish Breath still allowed me to express my skill, and
it's it's certainly likely that this will have less of
that than the old version of Breath, right, But I

(39:38):
don't know if I'm a Blizzard designer and I've had
this like Breath thing going on forever, and you can
maybe find a way to have Breath still feel valuable
and good and hard for like the best players and
it's not causing this massive chasm between your players that
play the spec. I think that's something worth exploring. And
if you're like basically reworking the spec, it's like one
of the first things you're gonna look at. And it's
really unsurprising that they chose to really target because it

(40:00):
is extremely polarizing. Plus it's gonna be so hard to
tell about Breath because like low key Frosty K looks
like a completely different.

Speaker 2 (40:07):
Spec the rest.

Speaker 3 (40:09):
It's so hard to like, like, when I think of
Frosty K, I think of what like a remorseless winter
window in a pillar feels like outside of Breath. It's
the only thing I can get in my head when
I'm not playing Breath, like like in a blit window, right,
Like that's that's the only thing you can think of.
But like the speck is just different now, so like
you don't know how much this is going to matter,
which maybe even keeping it up for thirty seconds will

(40:30):
be hard. Who fucking knows, dude, Speaking of I'm so
glad they're changing.

Speaker 1 (40:33):
I always hated playing Frosty K and that moment you
get in the rotation where you're just like, man, I
really don't want to frost strike, but also I really
don't want to not frost strike. You know, you have to,
like you have to, but it feels icky, and that's
something that they really have targeted with this. So that's
something I'm really excited to see.

Speaker 3 (40:50):
Also, yeah, it's hard to tell right now because like
I asked my chat how frost is and I definitely
got the heavy vibes that like none of the numerical
tuning for any of this makes sense yet. Yeah, because
they were all like it's really bad. I'm like, what
do you mean it's really bad? Like which talent builds?
Like what are you trying? And they're like, I don't know.
It all sims really bad, and it like like you're

(41:11):
doing it like that's not really the point, like like
when you're redoing spec you should see the stuff that
should kind of work together. You can see some builds
and that they should synergize if you kind of know,
if you played Frosty K for a while. I haven't
done this myself, so you know, maybe this is impossible
to do, but that's seemed easy to do with the
new talent tries coming out initially, and like you should
see how it plays, like how does this feel? The numbers?

(41:32):
When you're reworking a spec, if you've been around for
the past couple years, there's usually a couple specs that
are reworked every patch. Everything is cooked, like stuff does
not make sense right away, like stuff doesn't need to.
I wouldn't try to make a build that's doing the
most damage right now, even though I think it's fair
to expect that you would want that because the patch
was seeming probably not super far away, so like you
would rather be closer to it fully functional than not.
But that's this is the exact kind of thing where

(41:53):
they miss a lot of numbers. I would just definitely
get the gameplay right and then they can make all
the all the numbers make sense, especially with how simple
it looks now. They only have to tune a few
few buttons, right, It's not like they're they definitely simplified it.

Speaker 2 (42:07):
Yeah, I will say this is an extremely ambitious patch
because they're doing a lot of reworks and the whole
tier sets too. There's gonna be a lot of balancing
required and they only have maybe like two months from now,
so I am a little bit worried about how much
they can get done in that time.

Speaker 3 (42:26):
Yeah, this patch does seem huge, right, Like I think
it's because the last time we had like I think
we learned earlier, Like usually tell me if I'm wrong.
When we get PTRs, aren't they normally a little less
fleshed out? Like I remember when we got the PTR
for this current season that we're in, Like it took
like three or four weeks for the Raid journal to
make any sense, Like the bosses were not even fully

(42:48):
Maybe it's a maybe it's a Christmas breakdiff because they
like actually take time off, which totally makes sense. M
i'd be less, but like we got that PTR and
it was so much less complete, like this time it
came out the bosses all like as far as I
can ntil, I haven't deeped dove it yet they make sense.
The loop looks like it's fully created and not like
placeholders shit, And I don't know. It seems like it

(43:09):
seems like we're three weeks farther in the PTR cycle
like DEV cycle by the time this release. Then I'm
used to right, which kind of implies that it's like
more ready, but that wouldn't be true with But maybe
that's why they were so ambitious. Maybe they were ahead
so they felt like, yo, we can have extra time
to cook. We were just gonna do on Holy Duk

(43:31):
and this, which is why it's in the wildcast. But
we actually ended up having a lot more time to
work on some other stuff, which would be a good thing.
But you're right, if they bid off more than they
could chew. You could feel that.

Speaker 2 (43:40):
At the at the beginning of the season, right, Yeah,
there's some drastic changes and if they don't give a balancing, right,
we're gonna have the first few weeks of some pretty
terribly balanced encounters or classes.

Speaker 3 (43:52):
Do you guys want to do? Although I will say
I feel like that is a fear that I express
every single patch, and I don't know if that ever
ends up backfually being realized. I think it has been
in the point five and point sevens those have definitely
even a Blizzard Zone admission has been like underprepared. But
like I feel like major patches, it's usually like this
thing's gonna be sope and this thing sucks, and like
it ends up usually all just being whatever and raid.

Speaker 1 (44:14):
I I just I find that how much we worry
about balance based on these sorts of things doesn't seem
to correlate all that much with how good the balance
actually is.

Speaker 3 (44:24):
Like in Mythic Plus it is yeah, like ad myth
but like we all know the Mythic plus issue. Like
my Mythic Plus, you being average should be fine, but
it means you take forty minutes to get invited instead
of instantly, so it objectively makes your game experience where
it's like, anytime mythic plusters complain about balance, they're valid
because that's just like it's just built for you to
feel terrible. But I feel like in Raid, it's just

(44:44):
it just it's always it's always fine.

Speaker 1 (44:47):
Yeah, you know, the things that are not fine are
a lot less of a big deal in Raid than
they are and M plus as well, Like relatively bad Raid,
balance is usually still totally It doesn't grief as many
people's experience as relatively bad and plas balance does M.

Speaker 3 (45:02):
Before we move on to tear sets, because we already
kind of talked about like breathstonder gos, So what do
you guys think about the DK raid.

Speaker 2 (45:08):
Buff h Yeah, yeah, that's exactly a whole M plus
Reid situation.

Speaker 3 (45:16):
Before we give takes on that I just want to
for anyone who hasn't read the notes that listens to us,
what they did is they removed a bombs limb. With
the stated goal of a bombslimb was sop that it
made single grip way like less impactful and it made
us intentionally made mobs that would be grippable immune. So
they just straight up removed a bombs limb. They kind

(45:37):
of reworked it for an holy and to be like
an AoE Army option, which is kind of fun, but
like generally it's just gone from the gripping thing that
you know, which alone, by the way, kind of sad.
It's really sick ability. But they said like, oh well,
this will be a way for us to do that.
It's gives DK will now design fights with more single
grippable stuff being relevant. And then they and then we'll

(45:58):
certainly have to discuss that because there's a lot of
issues at that. And then they also addressed ams either
were like the absorbed thing didn't seem to make any sense.
We're bringing it back to what it was originally with
like a two minute it used to be a two
minute twenty percent dr they nerved it to four minutes.
With a fifteen percent DR. But then they added a
talent which you'll almost certainly take that makes it a
three minute cool down fifteen percent DR, which is still

(46:21):
very good. That's that is like way in Raid specifically Raid,
I think this is probably a mythic plus nerve in
a lot of scenarios to what it was what it
used to be because of the reduced amount of players.
But in Raid, this is like probably it's easily the
best like utility, the raid damage defensive utility that any
non healer brings without question. But it's certainly a lot

(46:44):
worse than it was before. But before it was like
the best ability in the game. So like, I don't
know that it probably need to be nerve from what
it was before, But I don't know. You guys can
either go in either direction, either AMZ or GRIP. I
know I have a lot of thoughts, but I'm interested
to hear what you guys think.

Speaker 2 (46:58):
So first of all, they doubled down on DK's not
getting a rate buff. I think that's like the biggest
takeaway from this. They essentially made Grip as a raid buff.
It's like, okay, well, I mean, the whole idea behind
removing a bomb limb and nerfing AMS one. I guess

(47:18):
buffing AMZ and RAID is to make it so that like,
all right, now you're gonna want a DK specifically for grips,
and they can actually make grips impactful, which makes sense,
Like all of it, I actually makes sense. And they
said it was gonna happen in this new RAID coming up,
like it's gonna be notice about in a lot of fights.
I would say that's, for the most part, a good thing.

(47:38):
I just again, it's one of those things where it
sucks for M plus. A bomb limb was useful in
M plus and DK's still don't have the rate buff
AMZ is getting nerve in M plus.

Speaker 3 (47:49):
I didn't even think about the angle.

Speaker 2 (47:50):
Yeah, yeah, yeah, they're straight up just losing in M
plus while not getting a RAD buff and that sucks
really bad. But I mean, I guess it is what
it is. Right, they've already doubled down on the whole
we're not getting a raid bulb situation.

Speaker 3 (48:03):
I don't even think about that in Mythic Plus because like, yeah,
they're like AMZ is like objectively nerved in Mythic Plus. Right,
I'm pretty sure most times you brought you popped AMZ
and Mythic Plus, it did not get fully absorbed or
at least got most.

Speaker 2 (48:15):
It's very rare. Yeah.

Speaker 3 (48:16):
Yeah, so like you, so, Mythic Plus is just objectively
worse AMZ and they lose a bomb's limb is just
a huge mythic plus in quotes raid buff thing, but
right knows what about the raid actual raid raid buff
side of things.

Speaker 1 (48:28):
Yeah, So, I mean you could design fights such that
death grip is good. It's tough for me. Like the
thing that I'm a little bit worried about now is
Blood Dcay versus Don Holy in Frost because Blood k
still has Goorphein's grip uh like mass grip, and Blood
DKA has a shorter, cool down, longer range single grip.
So it's really hard for me to imagine you designing
a fight where death grip is important. But Blood Kay

(48:49):
isn't way better at doing the death grip jobs on
that fight than on Holy in Frost. So that's something
I'm I'm looking at. It is definitely going to be good, though,
if they actually make things that would be grippable grip,
I think to me, the most egregious example from liberation
of undermine is mugsy the rocketeers, those things not being grippable.
It's just like such a such a question mark to me,

(49:09):
and that one you can't even explain with like, oh,
a bomb lim would trivialize this, there's only one of
them out at a time, Like a bomb LIMB would
literally be worse than death Grip but at controlling those things.
So yeah, hopefully that philosophy switch is good. I could
see that being good for death Knights in RAID. I
think it's likely that we're going to move to blood
DK being a default tank option and still not seeing

(49:29):
default dpsdks in RAID. But you know, obviously that's that
is pending tuning, right Like DK always gets a spot
if the tuning is good. So I just I don't
think that this is necessarily going to accomplish the thing
they want of making DK have a good spot that
is likely to happen every tier without good tuning. I
think they just need to give it a raid buff
for that. So I really think they should still give

(49:50):
it a raid buff. I think it's not too late.

Speaker 3 (49:52):
I thought they did it. Like when I first read
the thing, I saw this massive paragraph talking about like,
I saw the words AMZ, I saw the words grip,
and I'm like, And then the very first thing it
says before the devnote paragraph is new talent increases haste
by two percent. I'm like, Oh, they get it. They
gave they gave DK a two percent raid wide haste buff.

(50:12):
They fucking they finally saw the light. And then randomly
it's only for them, and it just randomly they put
it at the very top, right above the dev note,
which was so confusing. So if they want a solution
to their problems, Blizzard, just make that raid wid gg.
It's over and you fixed it right. Yeah, it also
would be good for mythic cluss as well, but you

(50:34):
you hit the nail on the head. Part of my
job is to if there's a boss that requires grips,
it is my job to solve the most efficient way
to do that. And I'll tell you right now the
very first way we are going to approach any of
that is can we play two bloody keys? No question
it is. It used to be that their AMZ was
better for some reason. I'm glad that's no longer a
thing anymore. But I actually think with this change they

(50:57):
have actually in a way, they have increased the gap
that has existed between DPSDK and tank DK, which was
already a big problem. There was the problem of you
want a DK at all. That was a problem as well,
but within that, if you played DK, you know it's like,
why wouldn't we just bring a bloody game. They're just
twice as good at this, right. You haven't even seen
Gorphin's grasp outside of two bosses in the last couple

(51:20):
of years be used mass grip because a bombs limb
is the single solution to any time anything needs to
get gripped. It was such a good button, but they
both had it. So when we played I went back
and looked. When we played DKDPS a few times, it
was because you just needed one A bombs and or
you needed a certain amount of A bombs and that
came from both roles. So you could just bring a

(51:41):
DK DPS at the same time as you brought a
DK TANK. Now if A bombs removed and it's about
single grip, which is fine, right, but bloody K single
grip is I think almost you could argue twice as
good as DK DPS single grip. So they're right away
you have the enhanced problem, which you solved by the
way you why did shamans get a raid buff? Well,
there was a shaman every single time, so they do

(52:02):
have a rain buff, right, No, only enhance had it
for years.

Speaker 2 (52:06):
So what do they do?

Speaker 3 (52:07):
They gave them? Was it called sky fury?

Speaker 4 (52:08):
Right?

Speaker 3 (52:09):
A crazy good red buff that is really good? Okay, cool,
you solve the problem. Now you can bring any shaman great.
How is that not being applied to death knights?

Speaker 1 (52:16):
Right?

Speaker 3 (52:17):
Like they the thing you were stating to bring them
to the raid for is way better now. And they're
also running into another issue where they kind of have
an evokere raid buff. And what I mean by that
is evokres do have an hour long raid buff that
applies to everyone blessing of the Bronze. But that is
not in my opinion, that is not the reason that
at least I would ever bring in a vocre. All

(52:37):
of the reasons, and you do still bring in a
vocre because it turns out all the utility they have
is very very strong and having at least one of them.
But then interestingly enough where you can't bring two mages
and get double varcade intellect. The reason you bring in
a vocre is stackable, so you can bring multiple time dials,
multiple renewing blazes, multiple zephyrs and time spirals and all

(52:57):
this shit. Right. DKs are now like that, So if
grips are really good, you can now add a second
DK and you get basically double the raid buff value.
You get the second AMZ. Like most of DK's power
or all of it, is coming in things that you
can bring multiple of, right, And I find that to
be an interesting solution. It kind of works for vokers,
right I. Vokers are a proven model that, like, you
can solve a raid buff issue by not having to

(53:21):
give them an hour long thing, even though they literally
have one. It's just not why you bring them. But
it's really hard to do that. I just think I
think they're making their jobs so much harder than it
needs to be for the reason of, well, you don't
have to solve this nuanced raid buff problem with something
like an hour long raid buff. It's like you don't,
but like you really should, because it just fucking removes
the issue. Now that being said, let's say they did

(53:42):
that right now. Let's say DK's blood frost on Holy
they give a two percent hay buff to everyone in
the raid. Okay, you still would rather have that person
be a bloody K, right. I don't know how they
solve that problem because.

Speaker 2 (53:55):
Well, not necessarily right, Like what if it's like Vistier
for example, where blood k is just not as good
as you always anks.

Speaker 3 (54:02):
I mean, I mean, okay, but you have to remove
tuning them, right, Like you have to remove the argument
of tuning, because then you get said, well, why does
that matter of bloody k is better at this because
Frosted and Holy are super crazy and blood sucks. So
it's like, yeah, okay, but isn't the whole reason we've
gotten to this point?

Speaker 2 (54:14):
I mean, actually, I mean can we talk about can
we save that for the rest of the classes too,
Like why would you ever bring a Red Paladin? If
Holy Paladin then prop Paladin are generally better brought because,
like you know, Prop Paladin does have stalwoarding, and that's part.

Speaker 4 (54:29):
Of the reason why Salad is much more than that's
mainly just a prop Paladin thing. Yeah, because like you
could argue that blood case mastery, but like another healer
also that you would replace them with, also has like
a mastery type thing.

Speaker 3 (54:41):
But yeah, you're right. I mean there's there's other imbalances,
but not if they're going to make grips. They specifically
mentioned single grip. We want to make single grip in
broadin a single blood decay, if that is why you
want to bring them, is arguably worth two dpsdks. And
that's not even including the fact that a mass grip,
which again, if you guys play at a high level, you'll

(55:02):
know a lot of times you don't actually even play
mass grip even when you want to bring a blood
k mostly because a bombs exist. With a bombs removed,
mass grip infinitely gains value. By the way, uh, it
is going to be significantly better even if it's a
if they're making sing grips so important it's a panic
single grip every minute and a half, which has value alone,
not even gripping a bunch of things. So I mean

(55:23):
it's it's like arguably better than to dpsdk's as far
as at a concern a tuning aside, right, but we
want to get away from the tuning aside thing. Like
I don't know, and I don't really know how they
solve it. Do you nerve bloody K like a BLOODYK
grip is that that's a solution. Probably not.

Speaker 1 (55:37):
I think you should at least make dpsdks have the
same grip length and CD as DK.

Speaker 2 (55:42):
I can already see next week's PTR development notes. Bloody
K grip increased to thirty second cool down And yeah,
I think that's they are to be happy about it.

Speaker 3 (55:51):
And that's a bad change. Like I imagine this is a
PvP issue. Something tells me that, like dpsdk is having
a shorter grip in threes is just like, well, yeah, okay.

Speaker 1 (56:02):
You just nerve their damage in half and then give
them a hero talent that doubles their damage but makes
their grip nerved.

Speaker 3 (56:07):
Bang, they're heavy down. Yeah yeah, yeah, it's it's like
I don't, I don't like, we don't. This is a
nuanced problem. It requires a nuanced solutions, like because even
if you give them the default raid buff rate, it's
still Blood is just so much better. Not to mention
that if you're talking raids specifically, which we mentioned the
mythic plus issues, Blood is a historically amazing raid tank.

(56:30):
They're just great at rating and they got even better
today with Warriors losing spell block, So they're like you
know that that's something that and and everyone plays one too,
so you like it's just you just slot that in
and it's easy. And I think that's just going to
be the solution barring tuning. I just I just wish
they'd do you give deep depstk's mass grip. It's weird

(56:52):
because like mass grip, they'd have to put in the
class tree or they'd have to make it baseline.

Speaker 2 (56:56):
Because ok, okay, what about this. What if tank the
K keeps their short grip but they lose mass grip
and dk DPS gets mass grip.

Speaker 3 (57:06):
Yeah, wait, that is dorky. You're fucking cooking.

Speaker 2 (57:11):
That would be amazing for m plus too, Like imagine
your DKDPS having mass grip that is like so valuable.

Speaker 3 (57:18):
Yeah, I mean you could argue. I would, I mean
I would argue, and even by the way, they're not
going to do this, but like I would argue in
even most raid situations, like having a shorter single grip
if that's what they're focusing on versus having mass grip
at all, would most likely cancel each other out. Like
you'd find scenarios for both.

Speaker 1 (57:33):
Yeah, they'd be the same.

Speaker 3 (57:34):
That would actually low key fix this, but that would
just be so strange that that specifically is the fix. Like, oh,
by the way, bloody K, you you get this, like
ituld just feel bad to be a bloody K. I
also think this like nerves, just DK's versus other people,
certainly with the plus, but also in RAD like bro
A bombs was so cool and totally.

Speaker 2 (57:52):
Broken and also annoying too. The amount of times a
bomb them has Greek grief over all these years is
like way too up.

Speaker 1 (58:00):
We even had now the Brew Boss and Cinderbrew. First
time you go in there on a DK and you
hit a bomb limb and just grip the droplets into
the boss. That's a event that every DK has done
exactly once.

Speaker 3 (58:12):
Atlas fucking fat fingered a bombs I remember as it
was like an hour before we killed it and we
were on our best pull ever any fucking A bombs
for the first time ever in that phase and fucking
killed us by gripping up.

Speaker 2 (58:30):
It does no fucking damage to it is just one
of the muscle memory. Yeah.

Speaker 1 (58:35):
Yeah, I remember Ragalon as well. You'd press it and
just to grief the raid. Yeah, good times. I agree.
It's kind of sad to see it go, although I
do think the power that it brought was it is
just hard to design things to be grippable and not
make a bomb limbs super broken against them. So I

(58:56):
think taking it away is probably good for like making
the easier to design and balance.

Speaker 3 (59:02):
Yeah, we have that's yet to be seen. Yeah, exactly,
I think theoretically, I think you're right, Like, so another
way they could do this, and I don't think this
is a problem for the future because they'd forget about
this eventually, but they could design it this tier to
where single grip is good, and they mentioned like, we
don't need a million mobs spawning, so what would have
been a bombslimber mask grip is good, like specifically, single
grip is good. So in my mind, I just picture
a mob or two that need to die and they

(59:23):
spawn away from the boss, and it'd be really fucking
cool if we could grip them like all the boss
and then beat the shit out of them. That is
e And but if that only happens once a minute,
then blood DK and DPSDK grip is identical, right, because
you have the amount of grips to do both of
those things. But okay, if so, then that's like super
one dimensional. Then it's like, okay, so every time you

(59:44):
spawn a bunch of ads, you now they're not mass grippable,
and it's like okay, like I guess, okay, And then
later on are they like are they always going to
make it to where dps and tank dk grips are
identical in value? And even then mass grip still exists,
which like in reality, like if they ever spawn more
than two ads, mass group just gaps the other thing,
you know, so it's what do they do?

Speaker 1 (01:00:05):
This kind of reminds me. You remember when we talked
about Evoker range being a big issue for the spec
when it was first announced and going into Vault the Incarnates,
and then Blizzard just designed every fight in Vault the
Incarnate so that the range wasn't an issue and the
Evoker Movement suite was super valuable.

Speaker 3 (01:00:18):
Perfect analogy, Yes.

Speaker 1 (01:00:19):
And it's like, okay, well, clearly they can do this,
But then that's actually not a long term solution because
they were trying to do it that tier and they
were you know, it was a goal for them, and
that's just not something that is reliably going to happen
every tier. And then you got some fights like gnime
you or whatever and in a mirror just sill where
vokers are just in the trenches with their twenty five
yard range, or this tier even has a lot of
fights where evoker range feels very annoying. So it's yeah,

(01:00:42):
if their plan is to make this balanced by having
it be something that they just always think about and
designed perfectly every fight, that's great. But in addition to
limiting the design space, as you mentioned, it's also just
something that's very hard to sustain in tier over tier
because there's already so many variables that they're trying to
balance with these fights.

Speaker 3 (01:01:00):
Game so hard to tune. It's so hard. It's clearly
like fucking like this league, other games will just that
have been out forever that have infinite classes and stuff, Like,
You're already doing something that's impossible. Why make it that
much harder. Just just give in, man, give them a little,
give them a little.

Speaker 1 (01:01:15):
Something such a such a bait as well.

Speaker 3 (01:01:19):
Are you gonna have grippable ads on every single fight
ever where you don't want to sit a DK ever?
Are they going at this from the angle of well,
the important bosses will have one, so you want to
have one in to get them geared. That doesn't always
play out that way, you know, especially.

Speaker 1 (01:01:30):
If it's because you just you don't need to gear.

Speaker 3 (01:01:32):
Them no exactly you log on an all bloody k
rather than exactly you're right. Yeah.

Speaker 2 (01:01:38):
Part of the reason why the game is so hard
to balance is because they create all these problems for themselves,
which is why I'm really glad of making solutions like
removing a momb limb or removing spell block. I do
think the game has gone extremely bloated over the years,
and for them to take the stance of like, okay,
you know v's have been problematic, like let's just get
rid of them, I think that's the bed response. And

(01:02:01):
like even though like people haven't sad about right, Like,
it makes sense because if you give classes all these
cool abilities, like if you give them if you give
them spell block, it's like, wow, this is really nice
to have. But when you take it away, obviously it's
going to feel bad. But I think it's necessary evil,
especially with the whole spell block situation, which we can
talk about in a second.

Speaker 3 (01:02:19):
Yeah, oh yeah, let's just go into that, because that's
another like class change adjacent thing. What do you guys
thinking about it.

Speaker 2 (01:02:26):
Yeah, so the dev noe was not what I wanted
to hear. They said they removed it because it required
too much specialized to knowledge, which is like, yeah, I
mean that's kind of why you play the game, right,
I mean, like, can't you say the same about like
ams or what's that monk ability called diffuse magic and

(01:02:47):
it seems like many of our abilities, right yeah, yeah,
like you don't know exactly what you can yeah, or
like shadow melt hey, hey that's another topic could talk
about later too, Like we don't we don't know that
it's intended that you can shadow all this one boss
mechanic and just make it not do anything, but uh,
it is what it is, right, So I would say
it's good that spell block got removed because spell block
made broad Warrior way too binary. The class was either

(01:03:10):
unkillable if you could block the damage, Like if there's
blockable spells or blockable physical attacks, you literally took zero damage.
But outside of that, if there's like dot damage or
bleed damage or constant magic damage, that just like is
AOI and can't be spell blocked, you were fucked. You
had nothing you could have done as a broad Warrior.
So for them to remove spell block, and I mean

(01:03:36):
require them to do something different, right, Like they would
have to either readjust the broad warriors to actually be
able to survive these types of encounters without spell block,
or they would have to change of encounters to be
suitable to a warrior without spell block.

Speaker 1 (01:03:51):
Yeah, yeah, I think that's a fair Like if you're
read on this is oh man, it sucks that warriors
are going to die now because they're their magic defense
was like predicated on spell block. First of all, that
wasn't even true in Raid, but in M plus it
was sort of true. Although really an mplus, like you
had to survive the you know sixty six percent of
the time that spell block wasn't up right, so you did.
You did have to live outside of that. I think

(01:04:13):
it's also fair to be mad that Blizzard took away
spell block and they added in one of the most
like uninspired and awful looking talents ever with like you
have a phone chance just not take magic damage.

Speaker 3 (01:04:24):
You basically have four percent magic perry is what?

Speaker 1 (01:04:26):
Yeah, that that talent is like offensive, right, Like you
if you're good, you're you're reading that thing. You're just like, man, this.

Speaker 3 (01:04:34):
Is the word I was actually really interested when reading that,
cause like you could think of technically, with like a
bunch of damage events, having a four percent chance to
reduce all of the damage from something over a long
period of time is just a four percent magic passive
DR which isn't bad, But that's also like not how
magic damage is dealt to you, right, Like you usually
aren't taking massive dot as a tank, like massive magic

(01:04:56):
dot damage. That's like the dot damage you take, like
the way your health goes doing that is usual physical
it's like a bunch of auto attacks, but like magic
damage is usually fucking you. It's like one big hit
or it's like a bunch of casts and like you
getting one of them fully reduced is way worse than
like a four percent passive DR for example, specifically for magic.
I think for melee stuff like Perry ends up averaging

(01:05:18):
out because you're just getting hit so much, but it
just feels way worse because it's magic.

Speaker 1 (01:05:23):
Yeah, but yeah, that aside, I agree, like spell block
was not spell block was not healthy for warriors. It
just currently there is a worse thing that they've got
on on PTR, but they could they could do a
lot better than both that and spell block if.

Speaker 3 (01:05:36):
They have you played pro Warrior a doll? Can you
can even do content on PTR right now that's trying
to kill you?

Speaker 2 (01:05:43):
Not really? Yeah you was there.

Speaker 3 (01:05:46):
More things changed about prot Warriors possible that they're making.

Speaker 2 (01:05:48):
Oh yeah, they're very entire tree is changed, but it
doesn't really like address the problem.

Speaker 3 (01:05:52):
So I think we kind of have to I think
we have to push a lot of the major rework
stuff from like we just need to like do especially
as tanks this deep you can kind of hit a
dummy and get the vibe, you know, but like as
a tank, like unless you're doing content that's trying to
kill you, It's really really hard to see how good
or bad changes.

Speaker 2 (01:06:10):
Are I think about probab is it heavily depends on
the encounter. I mean just kind of rids me of
the whole add on situation. Like I've been saying, how
like it's good for Blizzard to be removing a lot
of these combat add ons, but obviously everyone doesn't trust
Blizzard to make for right decisions, and vincounters are still
going to be as awful. And it's kind of like
the same with proawary right now, right because like we
don't know what probably are gonna have to deal with

(01:06:31):
next season if it's anything like this season. I mean,
they are bringing back Priory, after all, you literally cannot
get past the first boss in Priory because it's just
like NonStop bleed damage. It's just not built for Pro
Warrior because probably would have actually been in a really
good dispatch, but the class was played in Raid a
lot for a very good reason. Like the class just
fucking owns right like it does a lot of the

(01:06:52):
image and it's pretty damn tanky. But when you come
across certain counters like the ones in you're just fucked.
There's nothing you can do about it. And the class
is just hard gated by the first boss and that's
not a good feeling.

Speaker 1 (01:07:09):
Yeah, so uh, I guess it's hopefully they'll land it
at a better spot than it is in now, and
I think taking away small Block is part of that.
But I also think that so far what they've been
doing is looking worse than or not better necessarily. Yeah.

Speaker 3 (01:07:26):
Some other good things though, just like minor class change stuff.
They before we get into your sets, they made killing
spree like control Oh god, it's so which is massive.

Speaker 1 (01:07:35):
W It's a reparolt. Yeah, you're just like like you
literally you anymore. You just press it and you just
are your lasting blasting and you spend all your combo points,
but you build them back up while it's channeling, and
you can move while doing it, and you can press
like some defensive and movement abilities while channeling it as well.

Speaker 2 (01:07:54):
So it's almost like Blade Store mix up.

Speaker 3 (01:07:56):
You're it's in front of you instead of around you. Yeah,
and it's yeah, I mean I think so. I think
he's right, right, that's.

Speaker 1 (01:08:05):
Yeah, it's God. What else is it like? It's not
really I think Reaperolt is the closest thing to it
if you played over one.

Speaker 2 (01:08:15):
Yeah, I see you're saying.

Speaker 1 (01:08:16):
Yeah, yeah, it's sick.

Speaker 3 (01:08:19):
Okay, I think that. What are you guys saying? The tier.

Speaker 1 (01:08:23):
Interesting? My suspicion is it's not going to be particularly
great gameplay in most cases, Like most of the set
bonuses I read, I've felt pretty uninspired by. There's like
five or ten that are super sick.

Speaker 3 (01:08:37):
Especially as a tank. Do you mean all of them are?
Like I thought the tank ones specifically are.

Speaker 1 (01:08:40):
Yeah, Well, because it's so hard to like most of
the ones that overlap tank versus DPS, it's like.

Speaker 3 (01:08:46):
They just made it for DPS.

Speaker 1 (01:08:47):
It's yeah, exactly, And there are a few where it's like,
oh they get There are a few where I looked
at it and it's like, oh, one of these is
a damage proc and the other one gives me a
bunch of haste or mastery or something like that, Like,
presumably that's gonna be the one that scales better into
harder content because that gives me a defensive value and
the other one doesn't.

Speaker 3 (01:09:02):
Well, tanks have always been so like the tear sets
for tanks are potentially so powerful that it defines the
tank you're playing in the patch more often than not. Right,
So maybe what they're thinking this is giving them a
lot of credit here is like if the tank ones
are just like, they give you a little bit of damage.
So basically the overall value of the tank tear set
is just you don't expect it to be super crazy

(01:09:24):
because they're all like really mid.

Speaker 1 (01:09:25):
Uh.

Speaker 3 (01:09:27):
Then maybe tank balance is easier to obtain because you
don't have to hit the rang lotto of your tear set.
But then then there's so many holes in that thinking
like okay, so let's make your tear set not fun
and cool and interesting like you've expected it to be.
So when you log in and get this new foreset,
you just don't care. Is that worth the balance? Like
probably not? That sucks, right, So I don't know. I

(01:09:48):
thought the tank ones were extremely underwhelming, but some of
them for DPS are fucking crazy.

Speaker 1 (01:09:52):
Like, uh, the Actually there's one tank one that's cool
and that's also a DPS one is the Paladin Hammer
that's gonna be That one's going to be super fun,
but a lot of them kind of so okay. Something
about Hero talents that I don't like is that it
makes your spec all about just pressing your big damage button.

Speaker 2 (01:10:12):
Right dude, exactly, yep, Like you think about.

Speaker 1 (01:10:13):
The demolished one for instance, right, Front Warrior is already
all of my damage comes from demolish. All of my
fun comes when I pressed demolish, making it so that
that's even more true, which is like the double is
basically just your demolished does more damage and it gives
you a buff afterwards that makes you do more damage,
and like that is moving the speck even further in
a direction I don't like, which is just based all

(01:10:35):
around that Hero talent button. So that to me, I
think is the is the part that I'm least excited
about it, just like I love hero talents that or
I love set bonuses that change my gameplay in a
fun and interesting way, And it doesn't seem like a
lot of these do that because a lot of them
just make my hero talent big damage button an even
bigger damage he button.

Speaker 2 (01:10:54):
That's exactly what I said when we talked about tank Thread.
I was saying, how too much of our classes damage
or capability comes from vise very specific things, which is
like viro talents, and it's going to be even more
so true like Al Drocki Vengesstein Hunter, for example, be
your tier set is literally just doubling the theory of
all Drockey damage. So I mean it's gonna be a

(01:11:16):
little bit more double actually, because the other part of
the tier set increases your physical damage by thirty percent.
So now you just have Fury of Al Drockey doing
like literally forty percent of your damage in ABI. So
how to how are you expected to get any agro
or do any remotely decent damage by just hitting buttons
like immolation Aura or soul Cleave or spirit bomb like
all those abilities are literally worthless now. It literally all

(01:11:37):
comes down to how big your hero talented abilities are,
which is cool in a sense, but it also just
creates such a problematic game design.

Speaker 1 (01:11:46):
Yeah, because just like there's not any gameplay that's based
around like, oh, when should I use my hero talent button? Right?
Like you think about spirit Bomb, there's a lot of
interesting game play about when should I press spirit bomb?

Speaker 3 (01:11:55):
Right?

Speaker 1 (01:11:56):
Most rotational abilities, that's true, as you can kind of
shift them up and down in priority list, But the
hero talent buttons are already all at a point where
it's like, oh, this button is lit up, I should
press it. So making it stronger with the set bonus
doesn't change the gameplay in any interesting way. It just
makes it even more correct to press it every time
it lights up.

Speaker 3 (01:12:13):
Yeah.

Speaker 2 (01:12:13):
Yeah, it doubles down their weaknesses too. On top of
your shrens.

Speaker 3 (01:12:17):
This is a little bit of a tangent. But what
did you guys think? So this is two tiers in
a row now where they have done something completely brand
new with tear sets, right like last year they did
the Like there's basically four tier sets and we've just
kind of slightly altered them for every class before I
asked by this one, I actually just in retrospect, what
did you guys think how last tier's tear sets played out?

Speaker 2 (01:12:39):
I would say largely awful.

Speaker 1 (01:12:42):
I think the Tank one definitely sucks. Like there were
a few tank ones where no, not really, there weren't
really any tank ones that I enjoyed, and I played
a lot of tank this season when I played my
range GPS classes, I did enjoy it, though, Like procking
Jackpots was actually fun. The MM one was fun enough
that there's making it baseline, although that's it was kind
of a weird interaction. It wasn't so much about the

(01:13:02):
jackpot thing. So yeah, I liked Jackpot. A couple of
the winning streaks were fun. Ratt Paley had a fun
one again as well. The luck of the draw sucked.
I think insurance kind of sucked as well.

Speaker 3 (01:13:14):
But overall, so overall we're worse than a regular tier set.

Speaker 1 (01:13:18):
But I think even though people called it like boring
and uninteresting or whatever and like low effort, I don't
think that was a fair criticism of doing it that way.
I actually think that it was a reasonably high amount
of effort to try and design, you know, set bonus
for every respect with the restriction that it had to
clue into you know, jackpot or Lucky, the Heart of
the Cards, whatever, luck of the draw. So yeah, I

(01:13:40):
think they landed on an unfortunate decision for luck of
the draw, in particular, winning Streak to a Lestri extent
insurance to a lestric extent Jackpot was cool. Doing something
interesting and different was cool. And that's part of the
reason why I don't want to be too critical about
the Hero Talent ones either. It's like, Okay, they're doing
something new with set bonuses, even if it doesn't work out.
I just like that they're doing something new. We've had

(01:14:01):
twenty eight tiers or however many thirty tiers it's thirty four,
thirty three tiers or something of raids and zep bonuses
at this point, doing new stuff with it, I'm always
I'm basically always going to be down for the first
time they try something new. If they ran back luck
of the Draw again, I would be very unhappy.

Speaker 2 (01:14:18):
So there's a bit of a tangent, but they really
need to fix bad interactions. My interaction with the tier
set this season is Boomkin's Procking Vertier set, which is
a mushroom proc randomly that'll just slow the mobs for
fifty percents. It'll randomly pull stuff, it'll randomly break CC.
It was just terrible, So like fat type of shit
needs to be fixed, or just like even random stuff

(01:14:40):
like arcane orbs because arcaine age is met of the
season and baclass is just non stop pulling stuff with
either shifting power or arcane orb and that is like
extremely infuriating. I just wish those types of interactions would
get addressed immediately, since it's like it's super impactful, nothing
worse than losing your dungeon run to some random bullshit

(01:15:03):
ninja polling. Yeah, in fact, like it's it's the thing
with the belt this that just came out last week
of a bell the charged bolts PROC actually just breaks
the c season in ninja polls and stuffing thing.

Speaker 3 (01:15:16):
Yeah, those are infuriating wipes because.

Speaker 2 (01:15:18):
It's just and they don't get fixed too. It's like, yeah,
that needs to be addressed.

Speaker 1 (01:15:22):
The charge bolts by nerving it by sixty two percent
or something, so that's not gonna be nobody's gonna wear
it anymore, Michigan.

Speaker 3 (01:15:28):
That's how you do it, right, there. That's that is
some that's some good ship.

Speaker 1 (01:15:31):
They're also they are changing the orb as well. But yeah,
I agree with you. Whenever stuff's like random ninja pulling stuff,
that is that, I wish that was a higher priority
of getting fixed as well.

Speaker 3 (01:15:40):
Yeah, it because it happens a lot.

Speaker 2 (01:15:42):
Yeah, yeah, it's part of your regular gameplay.

Speaker 3 (01:15:45):
One thing I noticed when reading this tier sets today
is like I would read one, I'm like, oh man,
that stinks, and then the next one within the same
spec was like, holy fuck, that owns and vice versa.
I read the first one that thing owns, the next
one and that's kind of whatever. And then I was
thinking we mentioned that they were going to do this,
Actually we thought they were they were gonna do this
in season one when we were talking about this before

(01:16:06):
the expansion, that like, oh dude, they're totally gonna do
like Hero talent tear sets. And they didn't do it initially,
they didn't do it last year, and they're finally doing it.
One thing I didn't when we talked about this before.
I never anticipated the fact that this now for the
first time ever. While yes, we are getting thirty nine
tier sets, it's also the first time where every spec

(01:16:27):
gets two chances at getting a good one. Yeah, and
I think that's really interesting. Like when I was reading them,
it's like you like before you just read your tearst
and you're like, man, that's it, but like now you
get like twice the chances of popping off or not
getting fucked, as long as you are okay with playing
both ear talents. I know for some classes, like you'd
rather play one than the other, or one is currently

(01:16:47):
better than the other.

Speaker 2 (01:16:48):
That's like Sandley then Rider right now, Like people want
to play Ryder bad, but Sanley is just so much better.

Speaker 3 (01:16:54):
Dude, Rider. The first time DKs are playing Rider and
it's meta. Did the ten second horse Deaths Advance thing
is the it's absolutely fucking insane.

Speaker 2 (01:17:01):
Yeah, it's it's so.

Speaker 3 (01:17:03):
Good to raid, Like, holy shit, it's good.

Speaker 1 (01:17:07):
Well, it's like gonna make your CDs.

Speaker 3 (01:17:08):
Dude, Mark, could you imagine Rider on the last boss
of this next raid where he's as big as fucking
storm Wind and his his his platform is just enormous.
I mean, he's so good. But uh yeah that they
Uh I just found that interesting that it seemed like.

Speaker 1 (01:17:23):
Because it is still only thirty nine bonuses, but now
every spec has a choice, So yeah, that is a cool,
unprecedented thing about doing it this way.

Speaker 3 (01:17:32):
There's no there's no worse feeling than like knowing your
tears stinks and it's not going anywhere, you know, and
it's just you're just you're just a bit less likely
for that to happen. Now.

Speaker 2 (01:17:40):
Yeah, it is harder to balance phil because there are
more combinations, Like how do you balance thirty nine specs
with two different which McCaulay hero talents each.

Speaker 3 (01:17:53):
I mean they were reality enough. You you go based
off of complaints, and people are just way less likely
to complain if one of them is great, like like
on there's a world where like some of the tear
bonuses are actually useless for a bunch of specs, but
you don't hear anyone typing about it because they're playing
the other one and it fucking slaps, so they don't care.

Speaker 1 (01:18:11):
Yeah. I mean, realistically, if you're Blizzard, you start off
by making sure all six mage combos are good, and
then you go by whoever for all the other ones?

Speaker 3 (01:18:20):
Did you read the frost and Fire the frost Fire one?
Holy fuck?

Speaker 1 (01:18:24):
Yeah? Igniting glacial spikes.

Speaker 3 (01:18:27):
Yeah, yeah, fire Made is shooting out glacial spikes every
time they Pyro and frost Mage has ignite, Like that's crazy,
Like that's just a it's cool, it's fucking crazy thematic
Like yeah, like they they they really cooked there, But
I don't know that I'm I'm I'm kind of optimistic
about it. I know, I I don't know if they're
gonna continue doing it, but I'm definitely I'm definitely a fan.

(01:18:47):
After reading them, I also think they made a lot
of like they they made more of like way broken
ones than normal, at least just upon reading it seemed
like there were more that were like holy fuck, that's crazy.
You usually want to like two of those a season.
Really I read eight of those today. The only thing
that's a problem. I think tanks got hit the hardest though,
Like they when I read the tank one, the average
tank one was like, Okay, you read the DPS spec

(01:19:10):
version of this that they're sharing it with, and it's
just some basic ass like you do more damage and
then they just gave that to tanks, but what tanks
are used to. Tanks can multi class, so like just
like right now you have two if you just play
one spec in the game. For example, you have two
chances of getting great tier every tier kind of tanks
have six chances of having insane tier because they'll just

(01:19:30):
play whatever tank is going crazy at that time. Right,
But now, like, what do tanks have to look forward
to with tier? Some like regurgitated DPS version that like
barely interacts with your spec and just does a little
bit of damage outside of like one of them. Like
that's fucking lame. I don't think it's worked out well
for tanks at all. The healers look like they have crazy,
fucking crazy ones, uh, and tanks don't seem that way

(01:19:53):
at all.

Speaker 1 (01:19:54):
Yeah, a lot of the tank ones are like lower
proc rate versions of the dep ones as well, which
like that looks like it's gonna be really uh un fun.
So definitely something got the short end of the stick here.

Speaker 3 (01:20:07):
But again, they need to add some dr to the
tank ones just baseline all of them. I know that's
opening up the like some of them are going to
be crazy and it can define the tank thing. But
I also think that is a that is a better
problem to have than tanks don't care about their tier,
Like they get a two and four set and it's
just like nothing matters. That's dumb. I don't know. I

(01:20:27):
think you'd take one being op every tier or two
rather than.

Speaker 2 (01:20:33):
Yeah, this is the first time we've had impactful tier
sets since like season three dragon Fly or some shit,
and yeah, like, like you said, a lot of the
tanks are just not that impactful. Yeah, but tom are
fucking awesome.

Speaker 4 (01:20:49):
All right?

Speaker 3 (01:20:49):
What else do we have? We have tier sets and
anything to cook on with, like the the cloak, got
the BFA cloak again? Is there anything there other than like, hey,
that's a thing.

Speaker 1 (01:21:02):
Do not use your last in our purchase on the
uh on the Sprocket longer cloak. That's UH. If you
were if you were thinking about maybe doing that, that's
now banned, do not do that.

Speaker 2 (01:21:11):
I don't think it really matters, is it.

Speaker 1 (01:21:13):
Well, you know, if you if you have like two
mediocre choices that you might carry into next season, pick
the other one. Now, don't pick the cloak because you're
definitely not wearing that cloak because you're wearing the artifact one.

Speaker 2 (01:21:27):
So what even is the cloak? I actually haven't really
looked into too much, Like does it even really do
anything special?

Speaker 1 (01:21:31):
Yeah?

Speaker 2 (01:21:32):
Or is it just something you grind you.

Speaker 1 (01:21:34):
So it's it's like war Bound, which is gonna be cool,
and then it has like an interaction. It has interactions
in the raid and in dungeons, which we don't know
what they are yet, and in keys somehow too, or
in in dolves also, which obviously.

Speaker 3 (01:21:51):
Yeah, I'm a fan of this. By the way, we
we've been asking, hey, you don't need to have expansions
defined by borrow power. That was an issue, but hey,
at the end of these patches, give us a little something.
Maybe at the end of this expansion, give us a
little something. Borrow Power had its issues, but it also
defined some of the best times to ever exist in
this game. Almost the majority of Legion, especially the end

(01:22:14):
the end of BFA, you can directly point to the
borrow power things they added to the game as a
major reason why those were some of the best times
to ever play World Warcraft. Them adding a little borrow
power cloak. Yeah, we're gonna lose it when we level
up the next expansion. That's true. That was part of
the downside, but hey, we can have like what is it,
what this comes out in next month? We don't know
how long it's going to be. What like like six

(01:22:34):
to eight months of going going on some crazy shit.
If the cloak is really cool, like I think they
should be doing stuff like this in the last patch.
That's my take.

Speaker 1 (01:22:43):
And making it so that it's a count bound like
fully is so good because a lot of these systems
have been something where like if you think about the
BFA cloak, that was a reason to not roll at
all was because that cloak existed, whereas this one is
going to be a reason to play an all because
you have a powerful cloak that you can just put
on start blasting. So I think that's gonna be really sick.

Speaker 2 (01:23:06):
My problem with all these recent grinds is they're all
so uninspiring. So like we got a belt, it's just
the dog shit proc doesn't really do anything. We got
the Vision and Chance, which again doesn't really do anything,
it's just a PROC. And we got Yeah, I want

(01:23:30):
something that actually has stub substance.

Speaker 1 (01:23:32):
It actually does so it has like brocks, And then
I think the way that it's the power is going
to work from it is that there will be like
boss mechanics that the flavor of them is that you're
using your cloak on them, like it's not actually an
extra like it's not an ability that the cloak gives you,
but it's like you have an extra action button on
a boss fight and that is from your cloak or

(01:23:54):
something like that, or like there's a mechanic that in
theory is because your cloak is giving the ability to
see you know, the ethereal realm or whatever it is,
which I think is kind of a I agree, it's
less cool than like Essences or corruption or any of
that stuff was, But to me, this is it's still
it's enough. There's enough exciting looking that I'm excited about it,

(01:24:18):
mostly the war.

Speaker 2 (01:24:18):
Yeah, personally, I just want someone like that alters your gameplay.

Speaker 1 (01:24:21):
Yeah, I agree, that would be the the ideal. Okay
and lieu of a Patreon question. This week we will
take a look at this Wowhead interview. Do you want
to do the first question of part one or part two?

Speaker 3 (01:24:35):
Well, Dorky was the one who brought it up. Which
one did you think was really interesting? Dorky?

Speaker 2 (01:24:38):
So one of them talks about tank threat, one of
them talks about how a season two dungeons are being designed.
The stop changes resilient keys needing on every item in LFG,
which we actually talked about on our podcast.

Speaker 3 (01:24:58):
Dude. One that I think is really interesting is that
what they say right away is like, Wowhead's very first
question is like mythic Galliwicks was a disappointment, huh basically,
and then their response was, well, basically outside of the
race world first, everyone thought the difficulty was fine. That's
like their Yeah, the media response, which is has been largely.

Speaker 2 (01:25:17):
Positive, and yeah, they've been Yeah.

Speaker 1 (01:25:21):
I I think that there's definitely true that Galliwicks double
the difficulty fights are going to be more popular than
Answer Act difficulty fights among the overwhelming majority of players.
I will dispute that everybody liked Galliwick's at least again
maybe just my guild is close enough to the the
high end that but like the experience of range players

(01:25:42):
just sitting there and actually doing nothing for the last
three minutes of the fight was not particularly satisfying for
the range players that I know most of. Like Phase
one was pretty fun, enjoyable I think for almost everybody,
and then the phase two melee experience is pretty good
and fight looked good. Yeah, so, and it's definitely I
think it definitely causes more damage to make fights too
hard than too easy, so it makes sense to error

(01:26:04):
on that side.

Speaker 3 (01:26:04):
It's just crazy from my perspective, Like what I hear
is like, okay, so that statement you just said I
completely agree with. By the way, like the majority of
the Mythic while rating scene would like a boss to
be closer to Galiwick than it was to Aance rec.
I've said those exact words after this raid, and people
got so mad at me, Like the chat, which is
mostly like the people who are still listening at that
point are just like race fans, right, and they're upset

(01:26:25):
because they're like, I didn't get to watch this cool thing.
But like I was like, you guys are who I'm
talking about.

Speaker 4 (01:26:29):
You.

Speaker 3 (01:26:29):
I'm talking about the people actually clearing the raid, And
I thought that that made sense. I don't know why.
I'm like just vindicating myself, but I said this before.

Speaker 2 (01:26:36):
Yeah, I mean, if a Blizzard devs agreed to with you,
I guess I must be right. So one of the
really rough answers was are there any plans to change
the way Mythic Lockout works? And they said, no plans
are announced and very happy with how it works. And
they said, what you pretty much said about the whole
lockout right, like they want communities to stay together and

(01:26:57):
how players should have social interactions amongst each other and
be tied to their group.

Speaker 3 (01:27:02):
So yeah, the way they yeah, it makes sense.

Speaker 2 (01:27:05):
I mean they did say they would love to hear feedback,
So I mean, as long as you guys are allowed
enough abouts for a whole mythic raid lockout situation, maybe vill.

Speaker 3 (01:27:14):
I mean they've been asked about it straight to their
face in interviews for like three years, Like I don't
think it's ever gonna change, because there's like what other
way they would need another way to very securely maintain
the social balance of wow, and like wanting you to
make those like they want you even though there's friction
to make those connections because they know their game is
better enjoyed like that, and that is what the mythic lockout,

(01:27:36):
among other things does, and that's clearly stated by them
why they're not getting rid of it. But it like
there's so many actual gameplay reasons why it turbo sucks
and lowers overall like involvement in mythic. So it's like
you're basically like, do you want more involvement in mythic
or do you want, like the entire social construct of
the game over years to potentially just evolve into people

(01:27:57):
solo cuing for things and not actually talking to people,
and blizzardsbably a lot more scared of that than they
are the negative consequences of the mythic lockout. It makes sense.

Speaker 1 (01:28:04):
Yeah, dude. The other thing in the part one of
the interview, the dead week is getting changed. You can
get a lot of Champion track w Yeah.

Speaker 3 (01:28:13):
I think that's we complained about that infinitely, right that,
Like that week just felt totally yea.

Speaker 1 (01:28:19):
And now I think they're they're striking the correct balance
of It's not nothing, but it's also not you know
the BFA week ones where you have to play sixteen
hours a day of eyes.

Speaker 3 (01:28:29):
We lock out mythic zeros, right, Like, the only people
who are going to potentially be really stressed out about
this are race World first raiders who have to do
a mythic zero two or fifteen plus times. Those people unrelatable.
Doesn't matter to a lot of people listening to this.
That is definitely gonna suck. Yeah, But the for the
average person, I think this is very good. You'll just
get a little bit of a two to three character

(01:28:50):
average person or less like that. You're talking just you
just have more stuff to do, more fun. You're gaining
that little carrot on the stick early on dred percent.

Speaker 1 (01:28:59):
Yes, that's as a huge w.

Speaker 3 (01:29:01):
What they say about resilient Uh, basically.

Speaker 1 (01:29:05):
They're not gonna they're not changing them. Yeah, for this season.

Speaker 3 (01:29:09):
I have a question, why do resilient keys not exist
from the beginning of mythic plus if they exist at twelve.

Speaker 1 (01:29:16):
It's a good question. Yeah. So I also am of
the opinion that they actually would probably work really well
for people below twelves. We got a lot of some
One of you guys got a lot of flak in
the comments for saying that like people who are three
k don't really interact with resilient which obviously it's not
technically true, like you do technically get resilient keys at
you know, twenty nine seventy or whatever, if you've done

(01:29:38):
all the keys equally. But it is also true that
if you're pushing twelves, you don't have resilient elevens to
fall back on, whereas once you were pushing higher than twelves,
that's when you actually get the benefit of having resilient
keys beneath you to fall back onto, right.

Speaker 2 (01:29:51):
Yeah, you don't really get until you finish it, basically.

Speaker 1 (01:29:53):
Yeah, exactly like you you'll technically get resilient keys obviously
if you're three K, but like you didn't progress with
resilient keys to three K except for your last few
keys maybe or if you were taching off somebody else
who had them.

Speaker 3 (01:30:02):
Right, they're gonna be fucking mad. Yeah, so I feel
like what you're saying is right, but they're gonna be
so mad.

Speaker 1 (01:30:10):
A lot of people actually the comments were like, but
you got it a three K. It's like, yeah, but
you don't, really, right, Like unless unless the main way
that you're using resilient keys is you earn the three
K at some point early in the season, then just
farm resilient twelves the rest of the season, which is
I'm sure there are people that do that and they're
just doing it for the gear and stuff and for
the fun.

Speaker 3 (01:30:26):
But even then, that argument we were making didn't even
involve saying that those people aren't we were. Yeah, that
whole situation I will never understand. But it's also okay,
I'm with thinking that just we're stupid and don't get it,
by the way, that's the result.

Speaker 1 (01:30:40):
It just it does strike me that the parts of
resilient keys that are super great the fact that it
takes some pressure off of you and it's uh, you
feel less stupid inviting less skilled friends or off meta specs.
It seems like that would go really hard at the
plus seven level and the plus.

Speaker 3 (01:30:57):
I just don't understand why it exists at it doesn't before.

Speaker 2 (01:31:01):
One reason I can see Blizzard not doing this is
because you're just going to see a whole lot less
keys below ten if that was the case, because I mean,
it's already happening. I don't know if you guys have seen,
but apparently over the last week the keys that were completed,
seventy percent of the keys completed were above ten, which
is just insane. It just means that like nobody's actually
doing low keys anymore. You know how if there's always

(01:31:22):
that whole theory that, like anything, majority of players are
doing low keys, do.

Speaker 3 (01:31:27):
You have anything to compare like a previous season. So
I'm thinking about it right now, like why would anyone
be doing keys this late into the season and hasn't
quit already? And it's like to farm gear for their vault.
I don't know why there'd be people pushing below ten now,
right because like you just yeah.

Speaker 2 (01:31:39):
The vision, there's just like a lot less people doing tens.
And I mean that's going to be even more true
if they were to add resilient. I mean, like, there's
no reason for you to ever go back down if
you've already completed like in eight.

Speaker 3 (01:31:52):
But they they responded to this though, they said, we
like resilient resilience chilln yeah.

Speaker 1 (01:31:57):
And I think one thing that so a the theory
that I've proposed is like, if resilience is good, why
don't we just make all keys resilient. But one thing
you would lose with that that they pointed out that
I do agree with is it is a big checkpoint
that feels good to get to, like earning resilient fourteens, fifteen, sixteens.
That's if you look at like stream titles, even in

(01:32:17):
the WOW category, it's like, oh my god, I just
got resilient eighteens or pushing for resilient fifteens right like
those that has added a huge amount of meaningful milestones
to M plus pushing. So I think that part's good.
I just do kind of think that they would go
crazy for for the lower key level audience.

Speaker 3 (01:32:33):
Also, sorry, I didn't mean no.

Speaker 1 (01:32:36):
I didn't have any more say. I just said, oh.

Speaker 3 (01:32:37):
Okay, yeah, thank god. But I just just to like
clear up our take on it. I think from we
are pro resilient. I think the people that were mad
at us thought we were like anti resilient. I think
we are pro resilient. And really our main drawback was
like people might be selling them.

Speaker 1 (01:32:54):
Right, which but like it's a small issue.

Speaker 3 (01:32:57):
It's a small issue. Yeah, we don't think the whole
thing should be changed for that. And and if and
if that has to happen for the overall benefit of
resilient to exist, that that that can happen, that could
be the case forever and it would be a slight downside,
but still overall positive. So we are we are pro.
We're on your side, basically. Yeah, we mean just the
same thing.

Speaker 1 (01:33:15):
We If you hear us talking about a negative of
a system, it's it doesn't mean.

Speaker 3 (01:33:20):
That it sounds like we've been kidnapped and we're currently
being held hostile.

Speaker 1 (01:33:25):
Yeah, but I've learned from from the comments as well
that we are the politicians of wow. And also what
we say is dangerous because Ian will do whatever we say.

Speaker 3 (01:33:34):
Yeah, that was a.

Speaker 2 (01:33:37):
Was like, you guys are not allowed to have your opinions.
This is not about your opinions. You guys are wow politicians.

Speaker 3 (01:33:42):
About what you guys are saying right now that I'm
mad at. It's it's I'm mad that you're rubbing shoulders
with Ian and what you might say or something like that.
It's like, so you're just mad, you just don't like us,
So why are you listening to this Like that drive
you insane.

Speaker 1 (01:33:58):
I just got to tell you, if you are ever
commenting on a YouTube video because you're worried that somebody's
opinion is bad, you are amplifying it. Like putting a
comment on a YouTube video is the single worst thing
you could ever do for making somebody's voice less heard.

Speaker 3 (01:34:10):
Dude, they're gonna be mad again three straight fucking weeks.

Speaker 1 (01:34:14):
Dude, we made it. We made it so deep in
the podcast this time that they might have tuned out
by now.

Speaker 2 (01:34:17):
Maybe yeah, maybe we were just engagement baiting. Honestly, Yeah
that's true.

Speaker 3 (01:34:21):
Well, dryofessed to go soon. I'm just trying to see
if there's any other absolute banger questions here, I don't think.

Speaker 1 (01:34:27):
So.

Speaker 3 (01:34:27):
It's like there's a couple very interesting like raid assignment
stuff that has like a cool answer, but like that's
I don't know, that's kind of like side side stuff.
The dungeon. Oh what about the do they have anything
interesting with like the dungeon difficulty?

Speaker 2 (01:34:41):
Yeah, they talked about of a whole dungeons getting disarmed
in season two and how people are having a lot
more fun. So how do they plan on continuing with
that approach, which I mean is actually a really important
question because of the whole add on removal situation, right,
Like if they're removing on the CD, are we gonna
make dungeons easier, We're gonna have mobs that won't spam

(01:35:01):
cast as much, because that is definitely a concern when
they're bringing back dungeons like Halls of Atonements and Gambit,
which are banger dungeons by the way. But yeah, they
could just dragon flightify them and make them completely terrible
to play.

Speaker 3 (01:35:18):
Yeah, I I something tells me that that's not Like
I'm glad that they could. You remember the one thing
I saw that they announced Halls of Atonement and I
was like, dude, could you imagine if they brought back
Halls of a Toment with Season one design philosophy and
what they would have done to that dungeon had they
brought it back then like Halls of We don't want
you to do any big poles ever, like whatever that
looks like version of that dungeon, it would have been

(01:35:40):
so bad.

Speaker 2 (01:35:42):
One thing that I do wish it would change is
true site also of the meld potion that's complete.

Speaker 3 (01:35:47):
We need to talk about the melt potion.

Speaker 2 (01:35:49):
Yeah, oh my god, that's a big fucking change.

Speaker 3 (01:35:51):
Well it's a big change. So I think it's good. Like,
obviously it's not the best solution to that. Like I
think a lot of people are like, we'd like to
play whatever race we want in our racials don't matter,
Like I'm in that camp for sure, but that they're
not going to do that, right, So, Like what they're
doing is, hey, if you you know, if you can't
be a night elf, here's an option. Obviously, if you're
a night elf, you can have this potion and shadow melt,

(01:36:12):
so you can potentially shadow meld multiple casts or stuff
like that. But it's still helping bridge the gap between
not being a night Elf and being one high end
players will probably still be night Elf in case you
can use it a second time, It's still just the
best thing. My solution is make shadow meld just not
work in dungeons, just like you do in Raid. Like
imagine in Raid if you if you just are a
raid designer and you're just sweating going into every Raid fight, Like,

(01:36:33):
oh man, I hope they don't make one of my
abilities completely not work because I'm shadow melding it. Yeah,
that would be insane, So like why does dungeons have
to deal with that? Just make it not happen. But
like I think what I came to the conclusion of
is they can't do that because they can't make it
different in a normal and a Mythic Plus. The reaction
between shadow meld and what's happening to you has to

(01:36:54):
be the same, And I think the LARPing night Elf
in a normal dungeon at the beginning of the season
wants to be able to shadow to not die as
an important part of Like you have shadow meld, you
should be able to use it at the normal level, right,
And it would be impossible for them in Mythic Plus
to make shadow mild not work, and then in normal
make it work, because otherwise wouldn't you just remove shadow
meld working rather than have this potion solution.

Speaker 2 (01:37:16):
So I'm on both camps personally, Like I think it's
really cool to have these like techy kind of potions.
I mean, as long as I don't get squalified for you, of.

Speaker 1 (01:37:25):
Course you are. Yeah, you like it. Next expansion when
you try and use this thing.

Speaker 2 (01:37:29):
Yeah, I fucked. Yeah, I mean I I really like
this type of stuff, right, Like I'm plus, it's all
about tech, it's all about just like coming up with
coolest strategies, and this amplifies that feeling. But I also
wish they would just allow players to just I don't know,
just like pick whatever Rachel's we want some shit, whatever
it is, because like I don't want to be a
stinking dwarf to half the time, but I'm just forced

(01:37:51):
to be a dwarf. And and I know when people get
mad about that, but like it is what it is,
right and never gonna they don't. They don't need to.
I get that, Like it's been in the game forever
and it's one of those like oh, like it's it's
a core part of Wow Fantasy RPG, YadA YadA ya.
But Blizzard has many changes that haven't made any sense

(01:38:11):
in the past, like cross faction, right, Like cross faction
was a massive barrier for them to break down, and
they went on and just broke fraction. Yeah, yeah, exactly.
And I think it's like some of these ideas are
just way too antiquated and they should.

Speaker 3 (01:38:29):
Just oh good, do something about it. Let's go, dude.
I ripped an antiquated in one of our It was
like a farm raid or progression rate. And I never
heard the fucking end of that. By the way, I
was like the oldest person that's ever existed for saying
that word ironic. I mean ironic, Well, that's what the
word means. It's because are you doing a bit No,

(01:38:55):
it's like anticated. It means old, right, yeah, but you
are old.

Speaker 1 (01:39:00):
For using a vocab word also, so it's like, but
it's ironic that the word.

Speaker 3 (01:39:03):
Oh I see, I see, it means old, like basically
shack and fired up had never heard that word before,
and it started becoming part of their vocabulary all the time,
purely just to make fun of me for saying it
in the first place.

Speaker 1 (01:39:14):
That is crazy, because I assume there are about four
million words they've never heard before, and they picked that one.

Speaker 3 (01:39:20):
That also penultimate is one I ripped one time, and
they absolutely love that one.

Speaker 1 (01:39:24):
That's a good word, that's a normal word.

Speaker 2 (01:39:26):
It's the best way to second to last. Boss.

Speaker 3 (01:39:29):
Yeah all right, fuck yeah, all right, that pod blow up.

Speaker 1 (01:39:35):
That's it.

Speaker 2 (01:39:36):
Bodias, remove racials. I'm not racist.

Speaker 3 (01:39:40):
A yeah, They're never gonna do it. Man. This is
the same reason they brought back like uh like buffs,
Like why did Druid get like Mark of the Wild
back when they because and they said in an interview,
it's like, well, when people used to play Druid and
they're logging back and wow, for the first time they
used to buff themselves while questing the Mark of the Wild,
and we want that to happen again. Like that is
why that button exists. That's why raid exists, because that

(01:40:01):
you know, uh, like so the whole like, oh, I'm
I play a shadow meld in two thousand and four.
I played a night oflf in two thousand and five.
I could shadow meld. Then wait, I log and I
can't shadow meld. I just select it from a from
a race, like a racial selector, Oh well, this is
this totally takes me out of it. And then they
like look at their horn flag in their room and
they're like, this is not the game they played when
they grew up, you know what I'm saying, Like, that's

(01:40:22):
that's the fear. That's why they'll never do it, I
don't think.

Speaker 2 (01:40:26):
Yeah.

Speaker 3 (01:40:28):
All right, sorry last second tangent, No goodbye, audios

Speaker 2 (01:40:31):
All rights Okay

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Ep. 74 - PATCH 11.2 ANNOUNCED

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.css-14f5ked{margin:0;word-break:break-word;display:-webkit-box;-webkit-box-orient:vertical;box-orient:vertical;-webkit-line-clamp:2;overflow:hidden;}Ep. 74 - PATCH 11.2 ANNOUNCED