Ep. 76 - they killed the fish?

Hello friends and enemies of the PoddyC Podcast. In this weeks episode we are discussing all the drama that is currently happening in the world. Mount drops, Fishes dying, DK changes, and much more - hope you enjoy!

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Episode Transcript

Speaker 1 (00:00):
Hey, welcome to episode seventy six of The Potty c
We are back. I've been a little The scheduling has
been a little bit tough on my end, So my
bad if we miss an episode last week or next
week or wherever it is because I've been on vacation.
Then next weekend I'm meeting up with guilties as well.
So that's what's been going on there. But a lot
of exciting things have been happening in World of Warcraft,

(00:21):
including people are getting legacy mounts five percent of the
time they kill old bosses instead of point five percent
of the time, thus invalidating years of accomplishments from hardcore
gamers such as ourselves.

Speaker 2 (00:34):
Dude, it's so dumb. I mean well, I mean I
guess before even talking about that, we at least I
acknowledge that no one is changing their mind, right. It
seems like like if you're someone who's like, wait, it
really sucks they're doing that, or I think it's cool,
like I've net, those are minds that aren't changing, you know,
but it's a I think it's good.

Speaker 3 (00:54):
Here's my thought.

Speaker 2 (00:55):
If you are or if you've got invincible five years
ago and it meant so much to you then that
you got it, and maybe you still write it every day, right,
But the moment of you chasing it and then getting it,
that is, that is what mattered, and that didn't change.
That happened, right there is the looking at it in
the way of like, oh, well, if I knew back

(01:15):
in twenty seventeen, I could have waited in eight years
and gotten it for free, you know, that would have.
But that's not that's not what happened, you know. So
now it's about like other people getting that feeling and
really wanting it and maybe have gotten really unlucky or
otherwise wanted to do it. I don't know. I saw
a lot of people tweeting that they were like excited
to log into Wow to get this thing that they
haven't gotten a while. So I thought for Blizzard it
was smart. I don't know. I'm just a fan. I

(01:39):
think it's cool.

Speaker 1 (01:40):
Yeah.

Speaker 3 (01:40):
Wrong, quick question, Are any of you guys collectors?

Speaker 1 (01:44):
I'm a little bit of one, although I'm kind of
burnt on Wow right now. Also I've been like a way.

Speaker 4 (01:49):
Necessarily Wow, just like a collector in general, like whatever
it be like, you know, yeah, right.

Speaker 2 (01:54):
I choose also while as well, I collected mounds for
a long time.

Speaker 1 (01:59):
Yeah, I like. I like getting the mounts and doing
the little I do some like I look at the
grinds basically and like if they're too annoying, Like I
haven't done dark views rep or a lot of the
undermine stuff this time around, But I'll do a lot
of the kind of medium, out of the way grinds
that they make each expansion to, Like I got veil
Strider and tie in and stuff, so I do a
lot of that. And I think I will log in

(02:21):
and do some mount farming. I just I've been away.
And then also I don't know, I sort of already
had a bunch of like log in the middle of
the patch to do horrific visions, log in the middle
of the patch to do delve Belt, which I actually
still need to do most of that, so I don't
but I think this is a big dub. I think
this actually, I think they should do this. They should
do more stuff like this and less stuff like the

(02:44):
Overcharged Delves thing and those kind of mid patch events.
I don't know if that's at.

Speaker 2 (02:48):
There's only so many of these type things they can
really do though, you know.

Speaker 4 (02:52):
Yeah, they can always events like this.

Speaker 2 (02:56):
Can you even think of something else like this that
isn't just this?

Speaker 4 (03:01):
It's like maybe like an alternative way to get all
the types of rewards.

Speaker 1 (03:06):
It's not all it's like a list of them pre
and I think it's pre dragonflight as well, which is you.

Speaker 2 (03:12):
Know, fair, But isn't it all the big ones.

Speaker 1 (03:16):
It's yeah, it's like it's fit as most of the
big ones. Yeah, if not all.

Speaker 4 (03:20):
Yeah, I mean I get it, like I understand the
discourse around it because I mean, personally, I don't really
give a shit because I don't collect stuff in wow.
I mean, I'm just not really a collective in general.
But I do understand that there's this whole sentiment of
wanting your reward to feel protected, you know, reserved, whatever

(03:46):
you might want to call it. And yeah, yeah, yeah,
I mean people can be kind of cringe about it,
for sure.

Speaker 3 (03:55):
I saw you linked that tweet that was one.

Speaker 1 (03:59):
Of my favorite threets ever, the frog wal show. Which
one is it? It's uh, it's the very private don't
talk about on stream channel that we're making an exception
for because this is right now it is harmless. Yeah,
but the it's the weak or that says laugh at
fake unearned mounts, and it automatically laughs at filthy casual
players with broad mounts, detecting if they if they earned
them during July twenty twenty five, And the best part

(04:22):
is this was this this week. Ord was imported by
USA Patriot.

Speaker 2 (04:27):
Yeah, yeah, that's a good bit, of course.

Speaker 1 (04:30):
It was a basic Yeah.

Speaker 3 (04:34):
This guy's name too, Garage god X laughs at.

Speaker 1 (04:37):
You, Yeah, garash god X is the character.

Speaker 2 (04:41):
I guess these mounts like kind of are like a
five percent drop chances, aren't you Like basically if you
want invincible, if you really want invincible, you're basically guaranteed
to get it right if it isn't this a whole month?

Speaker 1 (04:54):
Yeah, I mean you are, basically. I mean, if you
have enough characters, you're you're you're.

Speaker 2 (04:58):
Just big infinite. But what people used to do is,
like I mean, I think the reason saying had so
many maximble characters on an account was purely at one
point for Mount Farming, you could have sixty characters. They
don't need to be max level. They can be a
pretty low level and still go do the invincible farm.
You know, so, like it's really easy to go back
and do that. So I mean, right now you could
you could come up with, you know, a bunch of

(05:19):
five percent chances per week with four weeks. That's a
I mean, that's pretty crazy. Like Invincible has always been this.
I mean, I guess I'm singling that mount now. There's
plenty of them. Uh, but it's like really hard to
get thing because a lot of people didn't weren't playing
back then, and even people who were playing back then
weren't rating in a guild where they could get it.
You know, yeah, definitely rare.

Speaker 1 (05:41):
Yeah, I don't know. I mean, the rarity of the
mounts being part of the prestige is definitely the rare.
When as rarity goes down, right, then for some people,
the prestige goes down. But I don't know, I think,
I just there's so many great mounts in this game.
I think if people want to get them, even a
five percent chance, like that's a pretty low chance. You
have to do what lich King twenty times on average
to get it. Obviously, that's that's very doable. If you

(06:02):
have you know, a few alts, you can do it
this month, for sure, But it's still you know, we're
talking about hours of commitment to get this mount for
people that want it, like that's I don't know. I
feel like if people want a cool amount and they
want to log in and do that, that's I have
no problem as somebody who got Invincible under the old
drop chance to have people get it under under a
higher drop chance. I think. I think with you know,

(06:24):
thousands of mounts in the game, it's just I'm basically
never gonna have a problem with them reducing the scarcity
of any of the old ones because there are so
many cool ones, and I think it should just be
less of a barrier if somebody thinks one is cool,
or if somebody's trying to collect them, all should be easier.

Speaker 3 (06:41):
What if it's something like a rank one gladiator amounts,
should that also be given out or no?

Speaker 1 (06:47):
I think I'm fine with keeping those exclusive. Although it's
interesting because the PE ones, like PDE has all the
PVEE ones become eventually obtainable by collectors, but the PvP
ones don't.

Speaker 3 (07:00):
Why should those be exclusive? You're just curious?

Speaker 1 (07:03):
Yeah, I guess, Well, I'm not sure. I think it's fine.
I guess to have something be exclusive and cool for
people that do you know something, when you think about
something like PvP, right, like that is so brutal and
like awful of a thing to put yourself through that

(07:25):
if you don't also get like a permanently cool mount
behind it, I assume that no gladiators would continue to play.
I assume that's like the only string holding World of
Warcraft PvP still together. So I think we can make
an exception there.

Speaker 2 (07:38):
I think there's two different levels to it, because you
could also ask the inverse question of basically, after you know,
what is the rank one glad version of RAID, is
it getting world first? It's a little less than that, right,
But it's also.

Speaker 1 (07:49):
I think it's kind of similar to which gives you
a title but not a matter.

Speaker 2 (07:53):
Okay, So, like imagine if like the main like the
Galuoix Mount or Invincible or whatever, after Hall of Fame
is over, it was no longer obtainable. I think that
would be kind of weird, you know, But I mean,
let's just say that's the case. I would make it
the same as PV or PvP. But also, aren't those
two mounts not created the same, like for example, MIM's
head Invincible, the galu Wix Mount, the Raid mounts are

(08:17):
treated differently, right Like usually PvP, even ranked one mounts,
aren't they like recolors.

Speaker 1 (08:21):
There are some sick ones that they make exclusive and
then invariably they release a PvE obtainable versions soon after.
Like there was a sick shadow Lands one that was
an incredible gladiator a mount and then they made it
a very similar recolor of it, just with some less armor.
Was the one for Back from the Beyond from shadow Lands. Okay,
like retroactively, I think there are some It's like the

(08:45):
there's some Gladiators drakes that are pretty distinctive, but a
lot of the PvP mounts are you know that a
lot of pvpers are stuck in recolor hell with there's
some of the Vicious mounts where they basically release a
recolor every season and for you know, four seasons in
a row. That's the same thing, sort of like what
they did with Keystone Master mounts and last few expansions

(09:06):
that were they didn't actually do that this Timmerund as well.
This time around Keyston Master mounts have been getting like
sick and different. But yeah, there's definitely a lot of
TVP amounts that are you know, recolors of one kind
or another, but yeah, I don't know. I think the
GLAD amount one is interesting because I I my gut
would be to react with like, yeah, I guess people
should eventually be able to get those as well, But then,

(09:28):
unlike the PV E mounts, I personally don't earn those ones,
So I feel a little bit less comfortable making the
argument that I that other that you should be able
to get them, like I feel, I feel very comfortable
with the stuff that I get, saying like, yeah, I
don't care if this goes less exclusive, but I guess
it seems kind of like I shouldn't be able to
say that as easily about the PvP the GLAD stuff.

Speaker 2 (09:49):
Yeah, it was interesting because like I don't know why
it's any different, Like I'm saying, like why would RAID
ones be able to be brought back like that? It's like, well,
I guess, like the rank one GLAD is like this
period of time where you compete at a high level
and then you can get a high thing and you
get rewarded for it, And I guess that just isn't
what rate is though, because like you can just go
back and do those raids basically just at one point
they made the decision of, oh, if you didn't get
this malt, you can go back and farm it. But

(10:11):
you could apply that same logic to Rank one PvP mounts,
except how do you go back to an old season
to PvP? It would be the equivalent would be like
there's a vendor and after a certain amount of arena matches,
you can like pity by a.

Speaker 1 (10:24):
They have that with vicious saddles for like vicious mounts,
but not for the Rank one. Yeah, the Rank one
mounts each season, those ones are it's just the same
as it's the same as the Fame Slayer title, except
as a mountain instead of a title.

Speaker 2 (10:39):
I guess, I mean, I guess the answer is there
isn't a PV equivalent of a Rank one Glad mount.
There isn't a There isn't a mount you get for
killing a raid world first or in Hall of Fame.
There's one you get for cutting edge, which the bar
is significantly lower than Rank one glads equivalent. Right, so like,

(10:59):
if there's a there isn't a comparison.

Speaker 3 (11:01):
Well would that be cool though?

Speaker 4 (11:02):
Because I mean, like I do feel like there should
be something for and I'll say getting top ranked in
M plus or.

Speaker 2 (11:10):
It probably doesn't exist for the same reason there aren't
REALM first titles anymore, where enough people were mad that
weren't included that it outweighed how cool it was for
the small amount of people that actually got it.

Speaker 1 (11:24):
Yeah, I'm a big fan of aspirational rewards, but yeah,
there is a big trade off where like, the cooler
you make the reward and the smaller set of people
you award it to, the more people are feeling bad
about it instead of feeling good about it. Obviously, some
people like get pushed by that, right, like the existence
of an mplus title at point one percent, for instance,

(11:44):
If that didn't exist, there would be a lot less
people pushing high M plus, Right, that would be that
that is a big motivator for a lot of people.
And I think definitely like if you change that title
to a cool amount, that would become even more true. Right,
But then also the people who get barely miss it
are going to feel awful if it's something cooler than

(12:05):
a title. So I don't know, I guess I think
if I was Blizzard and I was at I got
the budget for another cool mount, I think I'd probably
just put one at like thirty five hundred something like
that for m plus rather than.

Speaker 4 (12:19):
Personally what did you sort?

Speaker 1 (12:23):
Oh the cashop? Yeah, yeah, yeah, I would bundle it
with with some traders tenders as well, and yeah, throw
that thing in the cash shop right away. I'd make
it a twelve month submount. That's a that's actually what
i'd do with it.

Speaker 4 (12:37):
Oh yeah, they got me with that one. I bought
the fucking cat, the cow, the little hoodie for it
to cost like a year sub just to get better.

Speaker 1 (12:46):
Technically, I think if you buy the twelve month sub once,
which you can buy with beanut balance, which you can
buy with tokens, then anytime you extend it, you can
extend it with tokens and you keep the status of
being a twelve month there wait, what the hell's mats forever? Yeah,
that's tech. I believe. I believe that word. I don't know.
I just I buy twelve months with my benup bone

(13:06):
balance every w twelve months, So that's what I do.
Uh okay, in I guess sad news. That immediately struck
me as sad, but I can definitely understand why they
did it. Breath Sandragosa, the empowerability that we spent like
ten minutes trying to figure out at like debating whether

(13:26):
it would be good and how to use it. They
have basically reverted that. They actually they made breath sort
of interesting where it's the it's the like you don't
extend it with spending RP anymore. You extend it by
just casting abilities, right they.

Speaker 2 (13:41):
In the game it's from spending killing machine PROCs on
a blaze or howling blasts with rhyme, which, by the way,
are the exact buttons you'd want to press in your pillar,
which is when you're going to use this anyway. Right,
So basically it's zero thinking. You press it for renew
power costs and it's just going to do damage over
a duration, and you're going to press buttons that you
would have pressed in anyway. So they basically just turned

(14:02):
Why it makes I agree with you, why it makes
me sad to is it just takes at least the
single coolest part of why I love playing Frosty k
just out of the game forever. I understand it was
really polarizing a lot of people didn't like it, but
speaking for me, which I feel comfortable doing. I absolutely
loved it, and it was very sad reading that it
was basically a non interactive button in terms of that,

(14:24):
so super sad. I mean it must have been shipped
to play the thing. I haven't played this version, and
I haven't played the version that they on the PTR
that they were originally changing it to, which was like
the bread like maybe the empower actually did feel like
shit to play. The vibe that I got from a
couple of people was it was more like there's just
still a lot of negative feedback that it was draining
nick power at all, and like basically that side one,

(14:44):
which is sad because.

Speaker 3 (14:46):
Yeah, vide is it just took it out.

Speaker 4 (14:48):
I don't I don't really understand the whole discourse about
its empower because like empower didn't really I mean, what
the people complained about were not exactly about empowers, is
more about like it's still breath with Sindra goals and
people just didn't want breath. Yeah, So yeah, I mean
it's gone and it's just gone out.

Speaker 2 (15:06):
Yeah, that's that is that. Some of the most fun
times ever playing Wow have been playing Frosty K and
if Breath was the reason, Like if Breath did not exist,
Like I just you you can make the argument that
this game can exist with really really easy specs like
a few are, and also there's really high master respects,
which there are, but is there room for a Strender

(15:27):
to Madness type thing to exist? And obviously was strender
to Madness they removed it, but Breath of Sindra Goso
is like probably the closest thing that they've had to
that where basically for you know, especially when it was permanent,
like you basically could keep it up forever, but only
if you played really well. There there was not really
anything else in the game that was punishing like that.
But also the upside was that high. It's it's it's yeah,

(15:51):
it's really sad, honestly, But I also get it because
I just I've seen it in my stream. How much,
if you're not on the same line of thinking that
I'm on right now, how much you hate breath is
equally mirrored with how much Oh yeah, I get it.

Speaker 4 (16:04):
It's funny because like, despite all of this oh we're
said about it being gone, there are actually a lot
of people who are very positive about this change.

Speaker 3 (16:12):
I've heard largely positive feedbacks.

Speaker 4 (16:15):
About like how all Frosty K is actually really fun
to play now, et cetera. Although I will say so
I did play frost Yk on PTR and I have
been playing frost DK this expansion, so like I.

Speaker 3 (16:26):
Have like a good idea of what it's like.

Speaker 4 (16:27):
And the class actually itself plays really well outside of
breath Now.

Speaker 3 (16:33):
I mean, breath is like it's not a cool down anymore,
so you.

Speaker 2 (16:40):
The rework.

Speaker 4 (16:40):
Yeah, the class itself actually plays really well on now.
You don't just spend on AoE frost striking, because frostriking
is like super fucking lame. You actually have an AOI
spender for both your ruins and ruinning power, like you're
actually using frost life.

Speaker 1 (16:57):
And that was always was weird about Frosty K. Was
like all your AoE damage came from like killing passively
and rhyme empowered. But like, yeah, not having an ao
spendor was was one of the differences that I think
is probably good to change.

Speaker 4 (17:13):
Yeah, yeah, yeah, and uh, not having to standing your
d D anymore. DND is just completely gone from the game.

Speaker 1 (17:20):
Standing in your blank is a mechanic that every if
that was removed.

Speaker 3 (17:25):
I think it's in some situations. Yeah, like I'm not.

Speaker 4 (17:28):
I'm not like I think saying we should completely remove
standing and ground ships, but at the very least it
should not be for Frosty K because it felt really
bad having D and D tied.

Speaker 2 (17:38):
So your specifically when you're not a tank and you
don't have control because a lot of the stand in
your own ship is tank related, right, it's like Paladin
stand your cons your dn D. Yeah yeah, right, so
like it's but anytime you've had that with like Honters,
with like wild spirits or or elemental shamans right with
their damages on the ground, any anytime that it's it's
so frustrating to have you not be in control old

(18:00):
the damage you're doing.

Speaker 1 (18:02):
Old firestorm where it lasted like a minute, not a minute,
but it lasted like fifteen seconds or something, and yeah,
you just had to hope that people keep stuff in it.

Speaker 4 (18:11):
But they also with this new talent, you play remorseless
winters like basically gone to I don't know, it's such
a different class like empower room up is a complete
different ability to it's really a completely different spec now,
but it actually plays quite well. Like your resources aren't
completely screwed like it was before, where you just largely
ignore your runing power. So I think on a pretty

(18:33):
good job.

Speaker 2 (18:34):
The changes outside of breath all looked really good. I
still think the breath thing is really sad though.

Speaker 1 (18:37):
Question, Yeah, could they still do like was the empower
thing badly received or was because could they still do
that with this version of breath and have that be
the the part that's like but what skill? Yeah?

Speaker 2 (18:54):
I didn't try it personally, so I don't know, but
I know, I know coming from people in my stream,
I couldn't really get a clusive answer. I mean, I
don't know how many people go on PTR to test
specs outside of people who it's like their job to
do that, but yeah, I would I would like to
know that you are you are right. I was about
how people's reaction was really positive to the change. I
was so baited because I came on after like a

(19:15):
day or I think, I like, these changes got posted
but I didn't see them, and I went live and
they were like, dude, you're gonna love the breath change,
and I'm like, this is the week after the empower changed,
so I'm like, oh man, they're still cooking. This is
gonna be amazing. My whole chat's pogging and then I
read it, and as I realized it, I just got
progressively more and more sad, and I was like, this
is not you guys baiting me, and it's like, no,
it's just it's just there's just no one. It's just

(19:37):
how some people feel about there's just breath. Breath is
just the enemy for them.

Speaker 1 (19:41):
Yeah, that's fair. I actually a kind of sadder about
the empower thing going away because I thought that was
a really cool cook so I but I know empower
can be awkward to play, so I I could see
that being maybe something that they actually just shouldn't use
a lot of because it is maybe maybe it's cool conceptually,
but it's like super clunky to play. I know, I
know empowers.

Speaker 2 (20:02):
I have tried it because because I could, actually I
wish I try. This doesn't sound annoying to do, Like
before you're going into breath anyway, that's like a big moment.
You could if you're empowering at once, which is where
you want to go fast, it's gonna be instant for
almost instant, and it's like if you're doing the long one,
maybe the long one, maybe the thirty second one just
felt like you were waiting. I could maybe see that,
but yeah, unfortunate. Well one of the cool an actual

(20:22):
cool empower idea, you know which, And if maybe if
you have really really cool empower ideas and it's still
not fun to use empower, maybe empower sucks. That's a
big way I look at it.

Speaker 4 (20:33):
So, I mean, I had this discussion on my stream too,
and I was saying, like, what is there to like
about this version of breath? It's a non interactive, it's
just a DPS bund you press, like, well, what do
people exactly like about this? And I never really got
a conclusive answer to it.

Speaker 2 (20:50):
The answer is that, at least from what I can tell,
why people like it is because it's not draining power anymore.
It's it's it's good conditioned by subtraction to them.

Speaker 4 (20:58):
Surely it could be like any other down right, or
just completely removed from the game entirely, because like, what
what does this provide to the class? Yeah is what
I'm like trying to argue, because I don't understand what
people could possibly like about this, aside from like, I
guess your characters are so cool. While I was like
shooting out Frost.

Speaker 1 (21:17):
Yeah, it's a, it's got a cool animation, so they
should keep it of Okay, other DK changes the So
a lot of people US included highlighted that like DPSDK
was just a worst version of blood DK when their
raid buff is uh is their grips right, So they

(21:38):
have reduced the CD of dpsdk grip now and I'm
not sure does this mean that now DPSDK and blood
DK have the same grip power except for mass scrips
still being yeah interesting?

Speaker 2 (21:51):
Yeah that okay, So there's multiple levels of this that
are interesting because I don't know if it was us
or like something I said on my stream, but I
was just like, the thing that makes the most sense
is just to DKs be able to grip, and like
the I think all of us can agree. The reason
that DPSDK has not had the same as blood K
so far is because of PvP. Like, if blood yks
have fifty second grid PP, that can't be the thing.
And then so I was like, why can't they just
do this but not have a b for PvP. There's

(22:13):
really not anything in the game that lets them do that,
and PvP you can change things with PvP talents, but
there are not PvE talents. There are only talents that
are shared between the two. There's no way to make
something specific like that. So I wondered if they could
just do it anyway, be like, you know what, we're
making a change, but just in PvP, it ain't happening. Yeah, right,
And then they actually did that, like the actual line
of tech says you know only does not work in

(22:36):
PvP deliberately after that, and I don't know if I've
ever seen that before, and it made me go back
to think about how Shadow Priests still have silence and
dispersion in their spectree because when they came out with
the talent trees, they weren't going to allow RMP, a
already dominant PvP comp for the Priest Healer to gain
dispersion and or silence in the class treet like literally

(22:57):
every other class in the game. So I wonder if
they can do something for pre beasts as well, where
they where they can do something like that, because I
feel like those those classes aren't being treated the same
or are suffering similar issues. I think this is the
biggest this is the biggest thing they need to change.
I know a lot of people and maybe still and
I would say validly, are like, that doesn't matter. We

(23:18):
still need an actual raid buff, and I'm with you right,
this was more important to fix than that though in
my opinion this let's say they did before this change.
Let's say Death Knights got a two percent hay buff
to the whole raid. Cool, You're still bringing blood Ka
every single time, so that doesn't solve the issue. This
needed to happen to solve the issue, and I do
believe it will in the good.

Speaker 1 (23:40):
How much do you think masscript is like something that
would matter for the DPS versus Blood d K comparison,
because I feel like masscript is it's strong, but I
think it's maybe a little bit over like I think it.
The short range on it is pretty killer for how
many fights it actually gets like that much value on

(24:02):
in any of those sides. It's pretty much fine to
use sigil chains as well, although using either a DK
or a DH tank is still a pretty big restriction.

Speaker 2 (24:11):
Yes, so I thought about this a lot and actually
talked about this earlier today, But I think it depends
on their design. Right. If you look historically, mass grip
has value, and it's really hard to look historically when
a bombs limb existed because that was mass grip like,
and almost every sent areo a bomb's limb was crazy
convenient you would have used mass grip instead. But they've

(24:34):
clearly stated, hey, guys, this is going to make sense
because we're going to design fights that make single grip
really valuable. Now in the short term, it's really easy
for them to do that. There's a couple of really
good single grips on hard bosses this year. One we
haven't seen yet on testing, which is why I know
a lot of people haven't like they're like, there is none,
but it's not on every boss and I'll get into
a warlock kind of equivalent to that later, but they

(24:58):
are u there's no scenario this tier where masscript would
be good right now. Right so in the short term,
don't think massacrit really matters at least on any relevant
fight or would really make a difference now maybe even
next tier that's still on fresh on their minds. I
think what's everyone's concerned about is that going to be
the case like two years from now. It's not future proof,
you know, it's eventually something's gonna fall through the wayside,

(25:19):
and that's not gonna make that work where they could
just simply not you can just give them a raid
buff in there in all the time.

Speaker 1 (25:25):
And it's yeah, like, is it good to be a
dek in a world where there's maybe one or two
fights a tier that grip is good on? Kind of
still no, because if your spec sucks outside of that,
you're just gonna only get played on those fights, right,
and like that's kind of stinky. And then also is
it good to be a guild without a dek oh? Man,

(25:46):
Like that's that would suck if they just make fights
every So I feel like this kind of like obviously
it's you know, you want to have access to everything
if you're a guild, but if they make grip super
good on a fight, that could be very different than
like missing a few percent from a raid buff, right,
if you're missing a vital grip on a fight.

Speaker 4 (26:01):
So yeah, it was just still doesn't solve the issue
of it being completely useless and n plus yeah.

Speaker 2 (26:08):
Yeah, plus the mythic plus got cooked in all of
this there. A bombs limb was great and mythic plus,
especially for blood ks uh, and then single grip obviously
good and mythic plus. But their AMZ is now worse
than it was a mythic plus, right, So like Mythic plus,
like DK in general, which raid buffs do matter, Mythic
plus has just gotten worse. And that's that's another angle

(26:29):
of this that I the I don't even know if
they've talked about or maybe they could be asked that
in interviews or something, because there's ways to fix it, right,
Like think about it like this, like tranquility does double
the healing in like a five man scenario, right, Like
why can't current AMZ since they like nerved it and
could they make AMZ more potent in a mythic plus
scenario right since they nerved the cool down of it

(26:49):
because of raid. Uh. I don't know, there's something you
could do there.

Speaker 4 (26:55):
Yeah, I mean like even for Bloody K it feels terrible,
like we're talking about just DPSDK for the most part
for Bloody K and that and plus I mean that
class has gone but short end of the stake for
since the beginning of Dragonflight.

Speaker 3 (27:08):
Yeah, and.

Speaker 4 (27:11):
I was actually gonna make a video talk about all
these issues with tanks right now. But man, like blood DKY,
it has been in such a bad state for M
plus it's actually so sad. In fact, it's so bad
that they got nerve coming into this patch. I don't
know like how much, how many people, how much people
are aware of that, but the class straight up just

(27:31):
functions worse with how they change the sand lane and
was it one death Bringer, yeah, the deaf Bringer and
the nerve to AMZ even nerve to a bomb limb.
I mean, the class just straight up like, why why
are we even playing Bloody K when literally any other
tank just performs way better?

Speaker 1 (27:48):
Yeah, yeah, blood K and M plus has always been
like like it feels very good on in weekly keys
and stuff to have a blood Kay, but then as
soon as you start trying to push at all to
higher than that, it's a it can be a really
frustrating tank to push on once the auto attacks get
really dangerous, and there's just really like a bomb limb

(28:09):
was a huge good reason to put up with that
and that's just now gone.

Speaker 2 (28:13):
So also, how hard is it to create tanks that
feel different mitigation wise just in the history of Wow
and you make them work in both modes, Like for example,
blood Kay is like the most fun like raid tank
of all time, right just because the way raids are made,
and it's a Mythic Plus where that like super high
scaling melee attack thing becomes an issue versus like them,

(28:37):
how do you fix do you fix that without making
them worse? And raid?

Speaker 1 (28:41):
Like?

Speaker 2 (28:41):
How important do you find how they play in raid
versus Mythic Plus's tanks specifically? I've always found that interesting.
I have a question for you too about like raid
buffs and raids. So what are the other specs? What
are the other classes that now are with the DK
where they have a raid buff but they don't really
they don't have a hour long raid buff that puts
them in the rais, but they are brought to raid

(29:02):
either really frequently or somewhat frequently, and they do not
have one like that, right, the only one. It's a voker,
a warlock right where some people who are listening to
this might be like, well, a voker does have a
sixty minute raid buff. It does, but that is not
the reason you would ever bring it to a raid.
It's just kind of like a flavor thing, or it's
just simply not good enough power wise to put them
in the raid every time. Okay, well, how many bosses

(29:26):
in a raid do you bring a warlock right because
they have that buff it's like probably every single one
and why and it's is it gateway? I would actually
say gateway is about as useful as death grip. Honestly,
they're usually for about as many fights in a tier
you feel like you really need death grip. They're about
as many fights where you feel like you really need Gateway.
Sometimes you use Gateway but you don't need it. It's
just like, Okay, this is kind of nice, but need

(29:47):
gateway and need grip very similar. But warlocks also have hellstones,
which are the best thing that they bring. Is something
you absolutely need in progression. It's super op. And then
what a lot of people would say is their ability
to like have wipe recovery or to summon people. And
if you don't have a warlock, you just kind of
waste time during the night, even though it doesn't really
those two things don't increase your singular chance of killing

(30:09):
a boss on any pool like hellstones would like an
actual I.

Speaker 4 (30:11):
Would argue, of those are actually the two most important
things for warlock, and in fact, I would say it's
so important that almost every raid, even pug heroic pug
normal would rather have a warlock in the very group
than say a having demonter or in general for chaos brand. Yeah,
because like, yeah, it's nice to have three percent more
magical damage, but you know what's nicer in that being

(30:31):
able to summon your raid, being able to wipe recovery.
And I mean, yeah, like Hulstone's a nice too, But
those two specifically are so big for pugs in particular.

Speaker 1 (30:41):
Like heroic progue you, Yeah, having a warlock is like
the most important thing by a lot.

Speaker 2 (30:48):
Yeah, and yeah, I think the way you differentiate those
two things is I look at it as like things
that are convenient to have for your group that save
you time, versus things that are like increasing your chance
of killing a boss, something that helps you in combat
in a raid buff, right, for example, like a Hayes
buff for your class couldn't compete with warlocks wipe ability,
but like our warlocks white recovery, but they are competing

(31:08):
with their gateways and their hellstones for example, like stuff
that'll help you in a fight. And then you have
a vokers who now, and let's be clear, Warlocks, I
think have been brought to every world first kill in
like there were times where we were thinking about sitting it,
or I think we sat it on Kurrog maybe I
think Kurrog World first, you sat Warlock after a bunch
of progressions, so one boss and like forever evokers were

(31:31):
sat last here on a fight. So like evokers are
making up their value with some combination of rescues and
zephyrs and uh time spirals and spatial paradox and if
you're an augivocre a bunch of other things. But like
that's that's how you're making your raid. Your things that
are stackable and really good. Now, all those things from

(31:51):
both of those specs are more useful. Death grip is
only usable in a specific fight when they make it
work for that and those things are applicable all the time.
And in those case is you still sit evocres Right,
So I just don't really understand why they're so hesitant,
Like what's the worst that could happen? Like, what is
the punish? What is the punish for DKs getting a

(32:13):
little haste? Buff who's in pain? Who who suffers? No one? Right,
no one suffers? Maybe, like like raid balance becomes a
little weird because certain classes skills hastes some weird shit
like that I don't know, but like, like, no one suffers.
What are we doing here? We've already You've already solved
this problem. You had this problem with enhance. You kind
of addressed the enhancy part of the problem with death

(32:33):
grip today, even though not fully because mass Gribts still
exists and from another class, mass grip still exists. I
don't know, man, I just don't. I don't understand. I
don't get it.

Speaker 1 (32:46):
Yeah, I agree. I think it's it's one of those
things where like I think there's just a stubbornness about
it at this point, and that's just the main thing
that's going on.

Speaker 4 (32:59):
That's true, I mean, and that is kind of the
Blizzard's a little bit right, and it's like the Wold
in our situation, viz. If you're just kind of stubborned
about like this is just how it is. I mean
the raid lockouts too.

Speaker 2 (33:13):
If you're going to give them, if you're going to
give them, okay, you have this utility that makes you
needed on raid fights, Okay, well, like how then give
them three times more of that shit so they're competitive
with warlocks and evocres, the only other classes to not
really have a rain buff like, and that sounds like
a harder thing to solve than just giving them a
fucking rain buff, you know, so like what are we

(33:35):
what are we doing here?

Speaker 1 (33:36):
Yeah, like if Ocre, it's one of those things where
iv Ocre is definitely in that space too, where except it,
but for the fact that they've almost always been good,
we would be complaining about this for Avocre too. Right,
It's just it hasn't actually mattered because they have been good.
The utilities that they have has been enough for them
to get like ninety percent of fights. It's just worth

(33:56):
having one, and so you can just kind of shorthand
that to them having a radiate buff. Same with Warlock.
But yeah, it's well it's been so p Yeah, that's
that's shit. There's always been.

Speaker 2 (34:05):
An Opevocre, Like imagine a scenario where like none of
the Evocre specs are really that great. You could see
an entire tier where you don't bring a single one,
and then you'd run into the same problem.

Speaker 1 (34:14):
And we were talking that's the thing, Like I think
it's bad design with a vocre, but they're getting away
with it, so it's not a big deal. But they're
not getting away with it with DK and I I
feel like they're just like trying to reinvent the wheel
here instead of doing the fix that one hundred percent
would guarantee that you would play a DK uh and
that would be that would be good, Like because we're
doing that with every other class in the game, Like

(34:36):
why is that not? Why can't why can't DK get that?

Speaker 2 (34:40):
I mean hunters kind of have something similar to right,
where Hunters were given a raid buff that has absolutely
zero value in mythic blass right, So like there's still
some issues with some of the really like more clever
rad I.

Speaker 4 (34:52):
Mean even in the raid how how good realistically is
the Hunter buff unsuitable it?

Speaker 1 (34:58):
Yeah, unless the fight is uh like you could sit
them on Mugsy for instance, progression if the like the
RAD buff isn't providing you value on that fight necessarily
once you're making the push. So there are some fights
where you could consider where the RAD buff is maybe
not getting all that much gas. I think bandit is
another like we both fights, right.

Speaker 2 (35:19):
We went back and looked at all of the bosses
that where that usually have damage you do the beginning,
not count towards the end, and almost every scenario that's
ever happened, you still wanted to get out of that
first phase early like Razagath for example, is exactly like that,
at least.

Speaker 1 (35:36):
During early progression all this like Sire. You know, by
the time you're killing Sire, you're stopping damage.

Speaker 2 (35:41):
Yeah, Sires like basically the only boss I can think of,
uh that would have had that not matter. But I
think the Hunter buff is actually closer than a lot
of them in terms of what they actually want. Like
in my opinion and what I think Blizzard thinks UH
is raid bus should be as good as they need
to be to guarantee each class one spot in a

(36:01):
RAID group. That's the angle they've gone, and it should
be no better than that. Right where you run into
the issue where they're a lot better than that. Then
they start impacting Mythic Plus in a big way, and
now that can determine a Mythic Plus comp like, for example,
Mythic Plus comp was so specific at one point they
nerved ARCNAE and elect and Chaos brand right, which made
them what still really good necessary in Raid. But those

(36:24):
individual tools mattered a lot less in picking five specs
to be in a Mythic Plus group. But they were
still good. Right, So if they ever nerve a raid
buff and it's putting you more in line with every
other class that you're competing for a spot with, but
they still guarantee your raid spot, isn't that a good thing?

Speaker 1 (36:39):
Yeah?

Speaker 2 (36:39):
Wouldn't you want that to happen to every spec? So
it's less about the raid buff and more about what
your class is doing, right, So, uh, who knows?

Speaker 3 (36:48):
Dure.

Speaker 4 (36:48):
It's actually still so crazy to me to think that
Chaos Brand and Arctents like were five percent. Yeah, like
what a year ago, maybe like a year and a
half ago. If that that is actually insane, I mean
is like right now it being three percent is still
pretty insane, but it being five percent back then was
absolutely absurd.

Speaker 1 (37:08):
Yeah, that was that was a completely unrealistic number for
the length of the game that it was. Yeah, okay,
other PZZR news. Do we want to talk about Bubbles
getting from Bloodkin? Actually think this was a huge dub.

(37:28):
Taking a mob that was just like not playable and
then taking it out of the dungeon Like that was
really good.

Speaker 4 (37:34):
In such like a thematic way too.

Speaker 1 (37:37):
Yeah, exactly, Like they gave it a cool cut scene
of getting killed dudea cuts.

Speaker 3 (37:42):
It is fucking awful.

Speaker 4 (37:43):
You guess see that that is like the most brutal
thing I've seen Blizzard do.

Speaker 3 (37:48):
It's been a very long time.

Speaker 1 (37:50):
Yeah, that there's Bubbles Junior hiding like in the.

Speaker 3 (37:53):
Yeah yeah, yeah, that's part of it too.

Speaker 4 (37:56):
So yeah, so I don't know how much people know
about this, but uh, yeah they killed Bubbles if they
had swamp face like straight up just slam him to
the ground and just toss him aside. He's just still
like convulsing on the floor, flopping around. And then after that,
like you go down to where Bubbles initially was and
Bubbles Junior is just sitting in his little his little

(38:18):
tunnel waiting for his dad.

Speaker 2 (38:19):
To come back to his origin story. He's gonna become Yeah.

Speaker 4 (38:22):
Yeah, he's probably gonna become a Raid boss and that's
gonna be so fucking sick. Yeah, where he was just
become a never Dungeon boss. But it would be so
sick if they just made him a Raid boss in
the future that has like similar mechanics and he's just
an actual villain.

Speaker 1 (38:38):
Yeah. Yeah, I'm really glad that. So, like it was
just weird that there was this Bob that was. It
kind of reminded me of like a Prideful Spawn or whatever,
where it's just like way harder than the rest of
the dungeon, and you know, randomly like you could do it,
I guess, and especially depending on the key level, you
could do it. But uh yeah, I guess besides nerving it,

(39:02):
this is definitely the next best thing they could do well.

Speaker 3 (39:04):
So, I mean, they've been struggling with this for a
while now.

Speaker 4 (39:06):
I don't understand what it is with Blizzard and mini
bosses and m plus, but mini bosses have been something
you try to skip almost all the time. There are
only like a whole scenarios where they're actually worth doing,
and it's like prior of the Sacred Frame when they
give fifty counts and they're not oppressively hard. But more

(39:27):
often than not, Blizzard just designs these mini bosses that
are insanely hard where you can't pull with other mobs
and they give complete dog should a counts, like like
in the Theater of Pain, theater of playing, you play
the first miniboss and then you try to skip too
mini bosses, otherwise you're losing a shit to time. In
vacat so I mean, I feel like that's something they
really need to address. Also, just like the ptr dungeons

(39:50):
in general, I don't know if you guys have touched
them at all, I assume not, but uh god damn
they Yeah, they're they're not in that good of a state.
Blizzard has like somehow made Priory of the Sacred Flame worse,
and just like them doubling down on mobs having to

(40:13):
spam cast abilities is so bad for how mplus plays
right now. It's just like, I don't I don't understand
how they're wanting people to pug these keys because like
when we're playing ptrk's, we're not really tryharding right, Like
we're not out here calling every kick and stop and
it is fucking miserable. I'm straight up in Arakara and

(40:33):
Priory trying to just test my character and it's unplayable.
How these mobs are just spam casting and we're just
fucking dying left and right.

Speaker 1 (40:45):
Yeah, I mean, they are making like some good changes
to some of them, right like, but I guess it's
just not not enough.

Speaker 3 (40:55):
Yeah.

Speaker 4 (40:55):
I mean, like you know, like Floodgate definitely had the
best changes them moving bubbles and they actually moved one
of the blood Warper packs too, so like you know,
actually have to do those. But aside from that, like
the rest undreds, I have straight up just been a downgrade.
Our car was fucking worse than before. Priory is just
as bad, if not worse.

Speaker 1 (41:14):
Priors were. Okay, Yeah, I I haven't played, I've been away,
but Priory is one where I thought that would be
hard to make that one worse because I thought.

Speaker 4 (41:22):
They would improve it for sure, Like I thought it
would be like, oh, you know, like these mobs are
bolting people down too much, like let's try to cut
down with this, but it just hasn't happened.

Speaker 2 (41:31):
Can I make a prediction, yes, that going into the season,
we're gonna be apprehensive about the new dungeon set, and
then it's gonna come out and it's going to be
slightly better than expected but need some changes. Then they're
gonna make some changes and then it'll be okay or good.

Speaker 3 (41:44):
That's what's gonna happen.

Speaker 4 (41:45):
Like that happens just like every Yeah, it just sucks
really bad, but it's like all right, you know, we
gotta love the players suffer like for the first month
and then like oh well, I guess this turned out
to be a problem, like that would fucking guessed.

Speaker 3 (41:58):
Yeah, yeah, why why exactly are we doing on on purpose?

Speaker 1 (42:02):
They're not?

Speaker 3 (42:05):
Okay?

Speaker 1 (42:07):
Uh yeah, yeah, yeah, I do know. I think M
plus has been like I think Priory was the only
dungeon that I felt negatively about this season overall.

Speaker 4 (42:20):
So, I mean, I don't personally dislike Priory, like I
do think it's a cool dungeon and it can be
fun to play, but the problem is, like, unless I'm
just giga try harding, it's a pretty awful experience. So
I guess demends on like how I'm playing with dungeon.
If I'm just like trying to pug and have fun
or if I'm just like fucking around on my class,

(42:40):
it's awful. But if I'm like actually tryharding, then it
could be enjoyable.

Speaker 1 (42:44):
M Yeah, I Priory is like that. It's the one
dungeon where I am kind of unexcited to zone into
that place.

Speaker 3 (42:53):
Yeah, I mean rightfully.

Speaker 2 (42:54):
So yeah, dude, I'm just so connected disconnected from it, like, dude,
like it's crazy. I I I mean, I obviously used
to do it a ton, did Mdi's did all these
stuff back to challenge modes, and last season I did
was like Dragonflight season two or three on dema Hunter,
which is really fun. And since then that's just like
the one part of my Wow experience, it just doesn't exist.

(43:18):
So I I struggled to have any not going to
give a lot of takes on it.

Speaker 1 (43:23):
Very fair, Yeah, okay, something that's not Wow related at
all that we can all give some uninformed takes on
if we want. Have you guys seen the stop Killing
Games initiative and the drama that's that's got up around it,
and then the the fact that it hit the the
like one million signatures mark over in the European Yeah,

(43:45):
I don't know whatever, they have some democracy or something
over there.

Speaker 3 (43:47):
It's weird.

Speaker 2 (43:48):
I have one question about that. Like obviously pirate software
is like a huge loser. It's just the why, what
what reasonable take could there be to be humanly oppose
a position of like, hey, we should you should. The
whole bit of stop killing games is to not when

(44:09):
games that are like made online, for example, and then
they die and the company stop supporting the servers, you
can no longer play those games anymore, and some people
paid for them. That's the bit they they are proposing
legislation I think specifically an EU to where games have
to create a contingency to have some kind of playable
offline version of a game, or uh, they don't do
that one of the two, which I kind of a

(44:29):
valiant like that's all positives, right, like who would be?
Who is like fuck that? Apparently Pirate Software is saying
fuck that. I cannot possibly imagine why, even to the
point where I know someone recently was like would you
be willing to sit down and have a conversation with
him about like why you disagree with some of these things?
And he's like, no, it's not worth it. Nothing will
come like like like what are what? What did do

(44:51):
you guys know more about it? Like why specifically does
he dislike that movement?

Speaker 1 (44:59):
I So, I think there's there's an argument that you
could make that's like, hey, this is gonna like kill
So I guess there's the publisher's side of it, which
is like, we want to be able to, you know,
kill games, not for the purpose of killing them, but

(45:19):
like because too expensive.

Speaker 2 (45:22):
If you have to create a contingency, it would it
would make us not make the game at all.

Speaker 1 (45:26):
Right, And like we want to be able to you know,
turn off, Like we want to be able to make
a game without then being obligated to support it forever.
The thing is, it's not like the the initiative is.
The basic idea is like you shouldn't be able to
buy a game and then have it, you know, stop existing,
which you currently can. I so you could not believe

(45:54):
the people making the initiative where they say like, hey,
we've written it such that you can you know, design
an online game, and then you don't like it's not
like you have to keep the servers up forever, right,
but you just have to release the software for so
that other people can run their own servers. That kind
of thing. Yeah, Yeah, I don't know. I I guess

(46:15):
is that or or if you're a greedy publisher, which
Pirosoftware obviously does some software publishing, so that might be it.
I kind of feel like, I don't know. I feel
like he's just sort of reflexively reacting to people backlashing
him by doubling down. I think that's the main thing
going on there, But I can't say I know for sure.

Speaker 4 (46:38):
What is parasoftware even blaming I haven't really kept up.

Speaker 1 (46:44):
Like that that this is he's he's rooting against this.

Speaker 2 (46:47):
Uh yeah, and then kind of I think the big
story is kind of ironically this movement was completely dead
in the water. Yeah, like it had it needed a
million signatures.

Speaker 3 (46:57):
Yeah, that's an insane number.

Speaker 2 (46:59):
But like they need an insane number of signatures for
I guess someone to consider this, and they were stuck
at like less than half of what they needed. They
needed like more than five hundred thousand more signatures with
thin a few days or something, which was it was dead.
And the reason this all came up is the guy
pronounced it dead. He like made some statement like this
is going to die, and then people's A big part

(47:20):
of this too, is people's just general dislike of pirate software.
Like he had like the classic thing where he just
basically just it all boiled down to the fact that
he just couldn't take accountability for something and then kept
doubling down on it. That was basically all that happened.
But then people just decided to hate that guy. I
hate him for a different reason. He he called Fired
Up a dipshit for the spell slinger thing, So unfortunately
I'm forced to hate him for the rest of my life.

(47:42):
But he he uh this because Pirate opposed this thing,
people saw that it was actually gonna die, and then
somehow found a way to get five hundred thousand more
signatures to keep it alive because of their dislike of
this guy, which is kind of legendary.

Speaker 1 (48:00):
Uh. That is that is It definitely was one of
those like streisand effect things right where him talking about
it is what made it become such a big thing.

Speaker 3 (48:11):
Yeah, part of it is part of.

Speaker 1 (48:12):
What made it get such a so much.

Speaker 3 (48:15):
I guess we gave it traction you Yeah.

Speaker 1 (48:20):
Yeah, I don't know. I guess I haven't like read
the full text of the proposal or anything like that.
So I do think it would be bad if it
were true that like people were obligated to But I
don't think that. Like again, I believe that there's not
it's not going to do any super bad stuff. I
think it's mostly just going to mean that publishers can't like.

Speaker 2 (48:41):
It.

Speaker 1 (48:41):
Publishers sometimes, I guess they're gonna make the decision that, like, hey,
releasing any of our proprietary like how to here's how
here's how to do a wild Star private server, right,
something like that. Like when you take down the wild
Star servers, if you then have to say, like, okay,
here's how you could run a wild Star private server,
maybe publishers are thinking, Okay, we're going to lose some
IP value or kind of thing when if we have

(49:01):
to do that, And like, I'm sort of sympathetic to that,
but I'm not as sympathetic to like, Hey, people buy games.
They spend a lot of money on games. If at
some point after they make that decision, it stops being supported,
I think they should be able to recoup some of
that by being able to keep, you know, try to
get access to like all of the bones of the
game to try and play with it.

Speaker 2 (49:21):
More So, I also feel like it depends on who
this is affecting, right, Like, so, so what made this
pop off? Was it was Ubasoft or was it it
was one of those companies had a game that they
just stopped supporting, but it was a major game. It
was an extremely what'd you say it was Crew the game? Crew?

Speaker 3 (49:43):
Yeah, a crew.

Speaker 2 (49:43):
You has some kind of racing game that had like
Super Turbo died or something, but a decent amount of
people still played it, uh, and they just couldn't log
into their game that they bought anymore because they shut
down all support for it. I need to get the
name of the company.

Speaker 3 (49:57):
Right, it was from ubies off of you it was Ubusoft.

Speaker 2 (50:02):
Yeah, yeah, ussov Okay, So like if you're Ubusoft. This
is where I maybe will contradict myself. I feel like
you should definitely have to have people have access to
games that they paid for. But I I don't know
if I would hold an indie game to the same
level of scrutiny personally, So maybe it's a little more

(50:26):
complicated than that.

Speaker 1 (50:28):
I think that is a fair take on it. Is
like there could be different, uh like levels of you know,
like basically, if your company is making fifty million dollars
or more or something in annual profits or revenue or
whatever it is, then more stringent stuff gets applied to

(50:49):
you under this.

Speaker 2 (50:50):
Dude, imagine a Blizzard did this.

Speaker 1 (50:52):
Yeah, I mean, if they ever said down, wow, I'd
like to have them have to put up the you know,
the source code or whatever. No.

Speaker 2 (51:00):
I mean, like imagine how mad people would be. Oh yeah,
like like doude, W'd be like rioting in the streets
because people already hate them. So much.

Speaker 1 (51:09):
Yeah.

Speaker 4 (51:10):
Yeah, apparently disasked to do with well, apparently Pate Software's
against this because apparently it's going to like kill all
live service games.

Speaker 1 (51:20):
Yeah.

Speaker 3 (51:21):
I don't I don't actually know the whole argument, but
that seems to be his.

Speaker 1 (51:26):
Uh.

Speaker 2 (51:27):
I mean, that would be a pretty strong argument if
it was true. I just don't know if that guy
knows what he's talking about.

Speaker 1 (51:31):
Unfortunately, Yeah, it's you know, given the this is one
of these things where it's like I haven't read this
the text of the legislation proposed or whatever, and so
I can't claim to really be an expert there, but
I am an expert a little bit on on the
world of warcraft stuff that I do know that he's
talked about some.

Speaker 4 (51:49):
Well, Pirate Software worked at Blizzards, so you know, I
believe everything has.

Speaker 1 (51:53):
I actually hadn't hurt. Is that true?

Speaker 2 (51:54):
Is that true? Yeah? Are you sure?

Speaker 3 (51:56):
Yeah? Yeah, his dad worked at Blizard too or some shit.

Speaker 2 (51:58):
Okay, is that any Is there any a source?

Speaker 1 (52:01):
Yeah, anywhere anywhere we can I've ever heard that before? Yeah, uh, okay.
Other topics that we've written down for our podcast here,
I think we've kind of gotten through everything that we
planned to talk about I guess Frank added, so you
guys can decide whether this was a good or bad.
Addition to the topic list, he added predictions for new

(52:24):
raid question mark, full cap, perhaps question mark.

Speaker 2 (52:27):
Oh, I mean, he said raid testing too. There's not
too much to go.

Speaker 1 (52:33):
I did.

Speaker 2 (52:33):
I did like a actual like a YouTube video where
I went over it. So I won't do all of that.
I will just say the second to last boss is
kind of cool. Has like a last phase that has
orbs that are rotating on a track that are pulling
sucking you in kai Veza style, while also having shipped
to dodge and a mythic they can't touch each other
and they also never go away in reverse direction. It's

(52:56):
it's definitely going to be at least a visual spectacle.
And they made like a like a Tetris boss like
they like another boss is just like completely unlike anything else.
There's that fractalt yeah practice, Yeah. There's like six lanes
and two times every set he puts out walls and
you have to choose where they go, and if any
of the walls get to six, you die, and then

(53:18):
you can put them there and clear them in order,
and then depending on which ones you clear, they do
different mechanics. It's pretty cool that it is cool, and
you know, I think people will like it. It's a
really short Enrage single target boss, which I think is cool.
The last one that they've really done kind of like
that is Butcher. Butcher was a four minute in Rage

(53:40):
uh and and that I don't think since then there
has been a single target boss that's been that short.
Other Butcher equivalents, there's like another like optional boss which
people considered an optional this raid, so some Butcher callbacks,
but it is going to be a fight where, like
no question, every time you get a mechanic, there's going
to be a marker on the ground and a week

(54:01):
or it tells you where to go. M like there
will be zero yolo ing or the fight would be terrible.
But also in a way, you know we talk about
there are week or bosses, like there are bosses where
what I mean by that is like a boss where
the week or is really frustrating and it defines the
way you're progressing the fight. There's going to be nothing.
It's so interesting on fract list, every time you move

(54:22):
it's going to be dictated by a week or basically.
But I don't think that's going to be a frustrating
mechanic because you don't have a very long amount of
time to deal with it, and the difficulty of the
fight is going to be purely throughput based. But that
is an interesting element to it, where it's a fight
where you're going to get a lot more go to
X marker things on your screen. But I don't think
it's going to be frustrating.

Speaker 3 (54:42):
What are the general vibes of this raide?

Speaker 2 (54:44):
What do you mean by that?

Speaker 1 (54:46):
Like?

Speaker 3 (54:46):
Positive, it's gonna be fun, it's gonna be cool.

Speaker 2 (54:49):
We haven't tested me in this fight. We do that
on Thursday and Friday. But just looking at it, it
seems I mean there's there's a couple of really cool
looking fights, you know what actually might be a theme.
I think this might be a raid more than normal
where I have a much higher opinion on it than
other people. Do you Guys remember living them the Boss
where like you had to kill those constructs and like

(55:11):
I'm like raving about how cool this boss is because
of how fun it was to like figure all the
shit out, But like when anyone else gets to the Boss,
you just fucking like plug and play kill exactly that
we killed bosses over real quick, zero thought about it,
move on to the next thing. Yeah, practless. I feel
like it's gonna be really really fun figuring out the
correct way to do that fight, and then when you
get to that boss, you're gonna know where to stand
and where to go, and that's gonna be less interesting.

(55:33):
I feel like if you look at the last phase
of Nexus Prince, you are our Nexus King, you are
going to look at that on stream and be like,
what the fuck is going on? How are they possibly
going to figure this out? And then we're going to
figure it out, and we're gonna have so much fun
figuring it out. And then you're gonna get to the
boss and you're gonna have markers down for where to
put every single orb and where to shoot your Star
Killer swings, and that level won't be there for that, right. So,

(55:57):
and there's there's more bosses like that in this raid
than others, but that doesn't necessarily mean they are going
to be bad. There are bosses where they're very plug
and play from a video and it's less and they're
still really fun and like really intense. So like that's
just something that. I think if you're talking about a
vibe or a theme that's different, I think there's a
lot more of that.

Speaker 4 (56:17):
Okay, Yeah, I mean personally, just looking at a raid,
this raid looks fucking sick.

Speaker 2 (56:24):
Yeah.

Speaker 4 (56:24):
I think this might be the raid I might vibe
the most with for pretty long time now, because like gallyways,
I know, I mean like last year, I know you
guys were like pretty hyped about how it looked, but
I was like, you know, I'm not really that into
goblins or like the whole casino theme, and all of

(56:45):
Dragonfly was a complete.

Speaker 3 (56:50):
Bullshit raid where it's like.

Speaker 4 (56:51):
All right, well we're finding some stupid little dragon And
I didn't really like how it felt from dragon Flight
all the way until now. So this might be like
the first rate I'm actually do you mean like vibe both, right,
because you know how we talked about like wanting an
epic boss fight and like wanting something similar to fucking

(57:12):
googled on or even like, uh, It's like even Seppuleker
was like pretty fucking cool. We just haven't had one
of those in a very long time, ye, at least
to me.

Speaker 2 (57:23):
Yeah, I definitely have a high opinion of the bosses.
But I just you could have a really high opinion
of the bosses going into testing and going into the raid,
and they could all be bad and the vice versa
could happen.

Speaker 3 (57:34):
It's really hair to tell, that is true.

Speaker 2 (57:37):
You could you could make a boss like next as Princess,
that's perfect on paper and it's great, and it's great
and testing and it's really fun to think about. And
then you get to the boss and you're ready to
kill it and it should have died, and then it
turns out we had to pull it one hundred more
times with one tank and that made the boss absolutely miserable,
you know, and then that that's a world first issue.
But that exact same kind of thing can happen for
you guys. We killed Scarn is a fucking great fight,

(57:58):
and then they just did the weirdest shit ever and
it became a terrible experience for everyone. You know. There's
so many little things like that can happen. They can
get a boss's health right or wrong in two percent
in either direction, and the boss is a total pushovers.
It's impossible and frustrating. Both of those are frustrating for
different reasons, you know what I mean. I remember how
much people shit on Guardian after sledge Fist was the

(58:19):
previous tier, and it was just basically because it was
too easy, you know, Like but then they could have
made Guardian too hard and peop would have hated it.
Like just pure number tuning matters so much, and there's
no way to know what that looks like, and so
you get close to know how good it's going to be.

Speaker 1 (58:32):
I do think though, that there is like there's a
ceiling for how cool a raid can be that can
be lowered by like the theme being off, you know, like,
and I think the ceiling is at one hundred percent
in this raid.

Speaker 2 (58:48):
Yeah, looks the way that, you know.

Speaker 1 (58:50):
Maybe, like I guess narrow Our Palace is maybe an
example where it's like that raid. I mean, I actually
quite like the theme of it, but it's it has
nothing on like this one in my opinion.

Speaker 4 (59:00):
Yeah, speaking of tuning, I don't know, because I've Kilda
with PTR tuning, but PTR tuning some dog.

Speaker 3 (59:07):
Shit right now.

Speaker 1 (59:08):
Yeah, that's all.

Speaker 3 (59:11):
A lot on their plate.

Speaker 4 (59:11):
Like I guess I was kind of expected because they're
making some massive changes to a lot of spects, but
my god, the tuning right now, is awful.

Speaker 1 (59:24):
And like the stuff's too hard way or is it.

Speaker 3 (59:26):
Like no, no no, like like some classes are some classes.

Speaker 2 (59:30):
Are like each other doing too much different than normal.

Speaker 1 (59:34):
But I've heard kid is like existing by the grace
of a bug, which is pretty funny.

Speaker 4 (59:39):
I don't know that's the thing too, Like I don't
know how many of these are like bugs. And it
just feels like we're so close to the patch to
hear it's been feeling this way for a while now.

Speaker 1 (59:50):
Hmm.

Speaker 2 (59:51):
I think I just who wants to put money on
all that stuff is going to be figured out by
when the rad comes out. I feel like it would
I would put my money on that. This This is
pretty pretty consistently is the case where tuning in class stuff,
especially since they've been doing the reworks right, like since
they've been saying like dragonflights, like since tound trees came
out and then subsequently every patch they had to massively

(01:00:13):
change multiple trees every patch, there's always a bunch of
stuff that is initially broken on PTR that always just
gets figured out.

Speaker 4 (01:00:19):
I'm not I would say more oft than it gets fixed,
like maybe a week or two into the patch.

Speaker 2 (01:00:26):
Like things like Mooncin doing all their damage from a
star starts bug. I don't think stuff like.

Speaker 4 (01:00:30):
That, Yeah, not to bad extent, but there's still been
many scenarios where some classes or just like something gets
extremely broken and it requires them a bit for it
to actually get fixed.

Speaker 2 (01:00:44):
Yeah, I mean there's things that have been bugged for you.
I mean when Walker's had like ten bugs with how
like clones and stuff worked for like millions of years.
So there's some stuff like that all the time. But
I feel like as far as like overall raid balance
is concerned, it's just like it's pretty frequently exactly the
same thing, like resingle every single patch with a few
classes are really good, some stink, and almost everything is

(01:01:04):
like really really good for raid.

Speaker 1 (01:01:07):
Dude. My favorite is when they when an old bug
gets like fixed and then gets reintroduced some somehow mysteriously,
like it comes back from some change they make. But
you brought up the talent reworks being something that has
changed the way that PTR testing has happened, which is
actually the topic of our Patreon question, so we can

(01:01:28):
go to that right now, which is from I Blow
Up Raids, and it says most talent reworks have been
widely praised for making it easier to get everything two
point talents becoming one points, et cetera. Talent trees that
haven't gotten reworked in a while feel comparatively clunky. Was
it a mistake that every talent rework makes bad trees
feel nice instead of making some of the good trees
worse so they align with the bad one?

Speaker 2 (01:01:49):
What a question? I like, keep going, keep going, keep going?

Speaker 1 (01:01:53):
Okay? Is it too easy to get everything you wanted?
The reworch trees? It feels good, but I'm not sure
if it's actually good design or good for the game.

Speaker 3 (01:02:00):
That is so fuck it is this guy's based I
blow up raids?

Speaker 2 (01:02:05):
I mean, so, there's two angles to this.

Speaker 3 (01:02:07):
Number One.

Speaker 2 (01:02:07):
If you're Blizzard and you're constantly never caught up on
what you need to be doing, you're always doing, you
have a priority list of what needs to be done
because you're never finished with your work. Certainly, lets these
people really hate their class shields make it better? Certainly
is higher up on the priority list. Then Hey, these
guy's tree is a little too good. Let's make it shit.
Right not to mention the community's reaction information like that,

(01:02:28):
even if it was the best thing to do for
the game. You reacting to people being mad at making
them happy is kind of if you think about it,
that's kind of what their job is like all the time.
So that's why that happens. But I do think you
are onto something where like I still feel like talentries
have been out for a while now and there's still
so many interesting Like when I look at a talentry,
I like love looking at a bunch of different options

(01:02:50):
and like, oh man, if you really want to do
a wee, like these two things are so impactful and
they're so cool and this is for Cleve, and like
you have so many options. But then that sits at
a direct opposition to what you actually want as a player,
which is you want your Cleve build to also be
your single target build and you want to change almost
no talents, so like you want variety, but if you

(01:03:13):
are the person that actually has a lot of variety,
your class sucks, yeah, because you want to just spec
all the AoE stuff and it just happens to be
your single target rotation too, and that and then you
just you own you're great at everything, right, You're the
prototypical mythic plus class or the class. That's that's so
stupid though it is, it's it's he's right, that's what
he's saying, Like you, the classes that have access to

(01:03:35):
all this stuff, like they they all kind of operate
the same way and there is less choice. It has
gone against what talent trees want. But also, like I
don't the only way to do that is to shitify
the good ones to where you actually have to make.

Speaker 4 (01:03:46):
I don't want to call it shitify, like I feel
like a better word for is just to add friction.
I guess maybe friction is a bit of a buzzword
everyone using nowadays, but like that really is what needs
to happen with these trees. I mean, I've been complaining
about this for a long time now. I've been saying
how the dragon Fly Tree has caused this whole quote
unquote making retail too far gone, because I mean, really

(01:04:09):
like all the problems that stem from all the problems
that we've been to complaining about stem from the dragon
Fly Talent Tree and all the reworks that they've done,
like mages of them getting their tree reworked back in
like season two or whatever it was, and them getting
ice cold and then getting mass barrier and then having
access to multiple ccs, and it's just like, it's ridiculous

(01:04:31):
that for a tree to be good, it's you can
basically pick up everything. You get all your good town points,
you get all your good defensive stuff, you get all
your utility, and like, yeah, I understand that people don't
want to choose between having to do away or single target.

Speaker 2 (01:04:48):
Or they they don't want to do that when other
classes don't. Right, that was their mistake. They when they
saw this happen at the beginning, they were like, wait,
these classes are sick. Wait, if you're an Arms Warrior,
you can't do anything without changing your whole tree. They
should have I'm my opinion, and I agree with you.
I think this is what you're saying. They should have
gone through. We should make classes feel more like Arms

(01:05:10):
Warrior and not make everything feel like a HAVOCDH where
you're just playing the same build all the time, because
like that is what makes you good. But if they're again,
if you're following the complaining, the people who are complaining
are the ones with those trees. The people who could
do that aren't complaining, So it totally makes sense they
went the direction they did but you are right that
it is turned talentries into like a frictionless or you're

(01:05:30):
just mad if you don't get everything. So now talentrees
are kind of inherently boring.

Speaker 1 (01:05:35):
Yeah, I it is like the more interesting your talent
tree is, the more kind of annoying it is to
actually play that spec, and the more that it's right
to tinker with your build, and the less true that
there's a cookie cutter build you can always use. The
more like that speck kind of sucks to be one
of the people playing because you just have to like

(01:05:56):
that experience of oh, man, I don't have this talent,
but I'm supposed to have for this dungeon or whatever
like that is something that you just don't have to
deal with if you always play the same build. So
it is a very interesting dichotomy there, and I don't
know if there's an answer to it. I kind of
feel like the answer to it is just choice nodes.
Like choice nodes give you both things where.

Speaker 4 (01:06:18):
We might as well just play the mop tree again, right,
Like the problem is and the kind of that's that's
been my thesis for this for a while, is like
the new talent system is not actually better than the
Mob Talent system was.

Speaker 1 (01:06:30):
It's just it's well, it's just it's better because they
are supporting it, whereas with MOP Talent Trees they just
left like six percent damage loss versus twenty percent damage
gain versus three percent damage game like that. That was
a row on the Warlock Talentry for its entire existence,
And like if they had just done this level of

(01:06:51):
support for the uh, the Mob Talentree system, I think
it would be just better.

Speaker 2 (01:06:56):
I don't know, well for us, Like the reason I
think the main reasons they did the Talentry was for leveling,
Like yeah, when you level, you got something every fifteen
levels versus now you're gain something every level, and that
for learning your class and that every point you get
when leveling that really matters to people. That was the
primary reason for all.

Speaker 1 (01:07:14):
It's also like more iconically Wow, I guess, so there's
definitely upsides to it, but like, yeah, for for us,
I think it is fair to say, like it's kind
of weird to like reverse engineer yourself back to the
Mob Talent trees, but that's what happens every time I tried,
and I think this question through.

Speaker 3 (01:07:31):
Yeah.

Speaker 4 (01:07:32):
Also, yeah, speaking of like frictionless. It feels like every
class just does damage of the same now too. I mean,
like not obviously, not every single class is the same,
but so many classes just do prow damage or do
funnel or whatever. It's something that I've noticed more and

(01:07:52):
more of, like whenever I'm doing ptrkes with different specs,
somehow just every spec in the game just blows away. Okay, again,
not every but I'm just saying this hyperbolically, but so
many specs just blow up that one mob. Like we'd
be doing a floodgate, for example, and there'd be that
one big mob in the pack. It would just get

(01:08:13):
completely destroyed, and every mob is every other mob is
still alive, because like that's just how a lot of
specs do damage nowadays. Seah, Like that's another complaint I
have to about just the direction of the game.

Speaker 1 (01:08:29):
All right, very interesting question. Definitely, It's one of the
ones where again I think the main thing is I'm
just I'm glad that they do these reworks and they
are redoing the talentares often, and you know, given that
there are a lot of specs that have nice frictionless talentaries,
I think everybody should have them. But yeah, maybe it
would be better if the default was a little bit

(01:08:50):
more friction, but I don't know. Maybe that maybe people
would be on average less happy with the game if
that was true. So either way, cool question, Thanks for
sending it in. Do do you guys have anything else
you want to talk about on this week's potty.

Speaker 2 (01:09:04):
C When do you guys think the rate's coming out,
or the season or the patch or any of that stuff.

Speaker 3 (01:09:11):
August is the like August twelfth, August twelfth.

Speaker 1 (01:09:15):
Or August twelfth? Is what you think for the Raider
of the Patch? Yeah?

Speaker 3 (01:09:20):
Oh, I guess we would have like a week of.

Speaker 1 (01:09:25):
And we know there's a heroic week with or a
champion track week as it were now.

Speaker 4 (01:09:32):
Yeah, I guess August twelfth for Patch, okay, would probably
make the most sense. Yeah, but it feels so early.
So that's why I don't know what I mean, that's
kind of what everyone's speculating.

Speaker 1 (01:09:44):
H Okay, that's gonna be.

Speaker 3 (01:09:52):
What about you guys, went when I don't know.

Speaker 1 (01:09:55):
August is? I think August twelfth, August nineteenth, August fifth.
I feel like it's gonn be one of those I
think the turbulent time ways had the patch as August fifth,
then the that would mean the raid ye.

Speaker 3 (01:10:06):
Fuck wait, that's mega early.

Speaker 2 (01:10:08):
Then that would be my guess.

Speaker 1 (01:10:09):
Yeah, yeah, I mean it means the PTR cycle is
going to be barely short, I guess by relative to
some but it's I think that a lot of them
have been on this fairly short cadence recently, so I
think it's definitely, uh, definitely likely.

Speaker 4 (01:10:26):
I'm just not used to it being that early because
I like, usually we PTR test for a while and
I'm still in PTR dungeons for like well number month.
But it does seem like if it's coming out next month,
that's pretty early.

Speaker 2 (01:10:42):
Mhm.

Speaker 1 (01:10:46):
Okay, that's it. That's the end of the body. Shout
out to people in the comment section. Love you guys.

Speaker 3 (01:10:54):
Yeah, I actually.

Speaker 1 (01:10:57):
Didn't read comments the last time, but I'm sure you
guys are behaving, so I'm sure that now.

Speaker 2 (01:11:00):
Gotta be happy.

Speaker 1 (01:11:01):
Yeah, you guys are having a good time. No controversial statements.
Everybody loves our takes on all all things. That's that's
that's what I believe. And see you next week by everybody.

Speaker 2 (01:11:20):
M