Ep. 78 - Midnight is coming... but with what?

Hello friends and enemies of the PoddyC Podcast. In this weeks episode we are discussing all things coming in midnight, as well as what needs to be added - because that's important! hope you enjoy!

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Episode Transcript

Speaker 1 (00:00):
Hey, welcome to episode eighty seven of The Body c
This week, we've got a new patch just on the horizon,
but just on the horizon of the horizon is Games Come,
where they're going to announce Midnight and do the cinematic
and everything and show us a lot about that, which
obviously we aren't gonna be able to talk about when
it actually is about to happen and when it does happen,

(00:21):
because we're going to be all busy with the new
patch and the race and stuff. So we figured we'd
start this week by talking a little bit about Midnight
and sort of what we think will be happening in
it versus what we think should slash, what we hope
will be happening in it. I think starting off with
like class design, talent, design, hero talents. So we got

(00:45):
obviously the huge talent we work in Dragonfly. Then we
got the Hero Talent system and boar within. So what can,
will or should they do next is the question which
I will start by posing to you, guys, what do
you think? What do you think will happen?

Speaker 2 (00:59):
For a minute, before even like trying to guess what,
let's just do you think they will? Like I know,
they're doing housing right, and that's this huge thing. I
think it's probably gonna end up being their main feature
of the expansion. Do we think that that means we
might get less on the like we're all expecting so
drag Do slated out right and and Dragonflight. We got

(01:20):
the new talent trees in this expansion, we got the
hero talents. They've all gotten better since they've come out,
but you know, they are what they are where we
played with them for a while. Are we going to
get something of that level in this next expansion? I
think the first question would be do you think that
housing is going to let them either get away with
or is taking so much effort that they won't do

(01:41):
something like that? They remember they said, you guys are
gonna have to lose a raid tier to get housing.
They said that for the longest time in defense of
like why they wouldn't do it, but also thinking about it.
Do those people have the same jobs, you know, like
people who are I mean the artists do. Like people
who are designing the art for the houses are the
same people. I assume that are like creating the art

(02:01):
for the raid and stuff like that, But that's not
true with talents. That's not true with making talent. I
think that the Talent Tree stuff is largely like class designers,
which I don't know why they would have anything to
do with houses. So I don't do you guys think
that we might not get something as big as those
two in the next expansion.

Speaker 3 (02:19):
So I would say, whenever it comes to a new expansion,
by far of the number one most important thing, no
matter what expansion it is, is how your class plays.
And I I just don't know what direction they go
from there, because so when they first introduced Hero Talents,
they mentioned not wanting like the Hero Talents to have

(02:41):
too much of an impact, right, I kind of vaguely
remember them saying something along the lines of that, like how.

Speaker 2 (02:46):
If we could get a quote. I'm actually yet don't
remember what they said, but I because remember before they
announced Hero Talents, we were like, okay, well, the whole
bit with talent trees was they were supposed to be evergreen.
But then we kind of all just assumed they were
going to just throw like an extra two rows of
talents at the bottom, which would make it exactly not evergreen.
It's like you're adding onto it, right, So then then

(03:08):
I guess Hero talents kind of were that with the
interesting spin that like you could choose between a couple
of them. That was I mean, that was basically the
I think the way they thought they could do that.

Speaker 3 (03:19):
Yeah, it wasn't supposed to change your gameplay too much,
right because like they already had the talentry, the dragon
play talentry, and if they were just to compound that
with Hero talents like suddenly adding multiple new abilities or
whatever it may be, that'll just be like too much
footo players, right, and that's something they wanted to avoid.

Speaker 1 (03:35):
Yeah, like very clearly when you look at the Hero talents,
they are not trying to add a lot to like
how many buttons you need? Right, most of them add
zero key binds to your your spec and some of
them add one. But like they do have a large
impact on the throughput of every spec, right if you
look at you know, yeah, exactly like that. Well, they'll

(03:58):
adjust like your build. But also it's definitely true that
if you look at it, it's like, you know, forty
percent to your damage or whatever is coming from your
Hero talentry or something at this point. But I'm not
sure that that goes against their goal or anything. I
think that I think those two like their goal could
be just have low not not add to like the
button blow to the game, even if they are impactful

(04:20):
in terms of how much you know you notice them
and how much of your damage they are.

Speaker 3 (04:26):
But that's what makes this so interesting, because like, where
do you even go from here? Are do you continue
adding to the classes like in Midlight you just give
players more talent points, extend the tree, or add a
number of difference like system On top of this, say
like I don't know a little bit, or do you
just do nothing with the classes? And I feel like

(04:47):
both directions kind of suck, right because like if you
do nothing, then if your class plays exactly the same
as how it does right now, Like imagine going through
a new expansion, That's that's one of the worst feelings, right,
Like you definitely want your class to be revitalized in
some way. At least That's how I've always felt whenever
it comes to the expansion. I mean like there used
to be a lot more drastic about this. I feel
like before Legion, you would always look forward to like

(05:08):
how exactly your class plays for the next expansion, But
ever since, I want to say BFA, maybe they started
to like make less and less changes to each class,
and most of the classes I play nowadays are like
very similar to what they played back in say BFA
with shadow Lands. But you can't really say the same
about like MOP like Boomkins, for example, if they changed

(05:28):
the Eclipse system multiple times and that class is like
drastically different.

Speaker 1 (05:35):
Yeah, I'm just not sure, Like I feel like they
can't just do another another big thing to classes next.
I feel like they're probably going to take at least
an expansion off of doing something like huge in this
in the scale of even Hero talents or especially the
Dragonfly talent rework, that just seems unrealistic to me, Like

(05:57):
I yeah, not just not because of housing or anything,
but just like I don't know, I feel like just
doing that every expansion, like how what what? Especially because
they're also doing so much work to keep rebalancing all
this stuff. I think. I don't know, I don't I
don't think. I think that if there's something, it'll be
like a small twist or evolution of the hero talents

(06:22):
like that kind of thing. Name.

Speaker 2 (06:23):
Yeah, I think they're definitely going to cook Hero talents
more maybe than the base Trees. Uh, you know, I
I guess maybe the question is, do you guys think
there needs to be stuff added like we we've talked
about recently where they they kind of you know, mob
talent Trees is kind of close to what you have now.
You have about like the same amount of decisions maybe,
but like why did they move away from that kind

(06:44):
of thing that actually made me think of Hearthstone. This
is gonna be kind You're gonna have to follow me
a little bit here. But did you guys play Hearthstone
when it came out or I guess past that point
I give you are either of you Hearstone enjoyers.

Speaker 1 (06:57):
Yeah? I played. I played a decent off mount over
the years.

Speaker 2 (07:01):
You said you didn't play it yourself, dorky.

Speaker 3 (07:03):
Yeah, that's actually one of the few Blizzard games I've
never played, which is kind of weird because I I've
played almost every other Blizzard game.

Speaker 2 (07:10):
Okay, I was really excited when Hartstone Classic initially came
out because I just remember I had a little nostalgia.
It was like an era on Twitch and everything. I
wasn't a streamer then, but I followed it and I
just loved the game, and it hadn't gotten like super
crazy yet. It was, you know, mostly a battle of
attrition and value, which I think is like when card
games are at their most fun. And then as the

(07:30):
game went on, it got, in my opinion, like a
lot more like RNG and just like the million things
are spawning a little bit harder to follow. And then
I remember when Classic came out and I was like, dude,
I'm like so looking forward to this because I wish
the game was always like this. I remember talking to
like a developer guy and he's like, it's weird. Sometimes
you need to change things just for the sake of change.
Like you could you could say that Harstone Classic when

(07:52):
that battle of value and attrition was the best thing
in the game, like that, that was the most fun.
But you can't keep it like that forever and keep
your game alive. You have to innovate, you have to
try new things. You have to you know, you have
to cook, as they say, And a lot of that
did lead to it feeling a lot different, but it
also would have been a worse decision to just keep
it like that forever, especially with the fact that you

(08:13):
can bring it back. So that I was thinking about
that more with talents, right, like like with Mob Talents
kind of being what they were, And we talked about like, yeah,
there's the leveling side of it, where like it feels
a lot better now than in Mob Talents, where you
can just like get every time you level up, you
get a thing which is like pretty pretty important to
like classic World of Warcrafts and I think just important
m mo's in general. It's a good feeling. It's something

(08:34):
that was bad about the Mob Trees, but we didn't
feel like at the endgame it really changed much. And
even them rebuilding everything just kind of introduced a lot
of problems. So like should they have done that in
the first place? And the answer is like you kind
of just have to cook and even if it doesn't work,
and they've been going through this cycle of like, you know,
making something in this game and it ends up being
pretty good years later. But it like takes a while

(08:55):
to do that. And I wonder how much far they
had a setback by just doing them out, like the
new Talent trees in general, and then going forward, how
much do you need to keep cooking before you maybe
cut bait? And I don't really think they can go back,
but like feel like it's complete. I don't know, like
like just going forward, if we got something like the
Dragonflight trees or the Hero talent something like that, every

(09:19):
expansion for the next just make it up four or
five expansions, right, can you even imagine what that looks
like compared to now? It's just so much iteration, Like
how much did they touch the mop trees from twenty
eleven to think twenty twelve whenever that came out, Like
until when did they Dragonflight twenty twenty something? How much

(09:40):
iteration was done to the mop talent trees? Honestly not
a lot, right, Like it was mostly the same thing
for like years, and in a way that was fine.
Some of the best expansions that ever existed and wow
existed during that time of like completely not touching those things, right,
But you know, I'm not arguing whether they should have
done it or not. But I don't know. That's what
I think, like going forward, word like does the do

(10:00):
you need to heavily invest in the talent trees? If
you're talking about dorky, the best thing to do is
to just play your character. I think for people like us,
you know, we don't represent all wild players, but absolutely
like class gameplay within like your role, Like how good
all the classes play is like everything to us? Right?
And is the game even in need of changing talents
from what they are right now or just continuing to

(10:22):
make whatever we have better?

Speaker 3 (10:25):
Well, so I don't think it necessarily needs to be
talentspen to change could be of our things, right, I
mean I first of all, like I completely agree, I
do think the game can't just your class just can't
play exactly the same from an expansions of expansion, I
do think there needs to be something that changes it up.
Like Lesion, for example, we had artifact weapons back completely
changed how your class play, and it was just like

(10:45):
a completely new system on top of that. But BEFA
came around and then there's like artifacts or not fact,
the artifacts went away and behave us the Azriites, and
eventually we got all those other stuff.

Speaker 1 (10:56):
Sure.

Speaker 2 (10:56):
Yeah, it's like expan expansion, different play styles because of
all these systems that were added into the game.

Speaker 3 (11:04):
Right yeah, And those systems were gameplay changing, right, Like,
it wasn't just something that gave your class ten percent
more damage or whatever it may be, right, Like, it
actually changed how your class functioned same with like Shadowlands,
we got Covenants that was like pretty drastic. Then Dragonfly
obviously we got the dragon Fly talentares and the Hero

(11:25):
talentares were like not as much of a change. Because
I have heard a lot of people say Warrefin does
feel like Dragonfly two point oh, which is you know,
kind of true, right, Like the game does feel largely
the same as what it was last expansion, And that's
why I'm like wondering what exactly will happen for next expansion.
Are they just gonna do maybe like more of like

(11:45):
a dragon Fly three point zero, or is it just
gonna be more of Warfin than like exact the same,
or are you just not gonna change anything at all? Yeah,
So I I have no idea what the right direction
is because it's like drinal set right, Like you can't
really compound systems on systems. That's just gonna create this
convoluted mess that we've been dealing with in retail. So

(12:07):
I don't know the exact answer. It's just something to
think about.

Speaker 1 (12:12):
Yeah, I don't know. My hot take is the mop
I guess we've talked about this before, but like I
kind of think after you look at it, the MOP
talent system was just like a better scaffolding for end
game than the Dragonflight one. But the thing that has
made the Dragonflight one I think better over the past

(12:33):
three years has been that they have actually like patched
it aggressively and they've been you know, tweaking, right Yeah, because,
like you said, a lot of the MOP ones stayed
the same for a lot of years. But there is
some tension between those two things, right Like, we talk
about there being these times where there's well designed classes
versus badly designed ones, And I think it's easier to
have a well designed class if you don't have to

(12:56):
touch it with balance patches every couple of months, right Like,
if if it has to keep changing, then it's also
hard for it to be like a you know, the
version or anything. Right It's like it's again, I'm not
I'm not arguing for one side or the other, and
I'm just saying like that there is a downside to
keeping things constant. I don't know, I guess to me,
the one thing I'm hopeful for in next expansion is,

(13:20):
I don't know, we've had to talk about borrowed power before,
and I know there's been like impactful and divisive borrowed
power systems. I would like to go back in that direction,
or at least to not do these like delve belts
and sources, circlets and these stupid like they're just powerful,

(13:41):
but they're just no fun or interestingness to them whatsoever.

Speaker 2 (13:46):
Nothing compared to like the essences and corruptions of the
borrowed power world.

Speaker 1 (13:50):
Yeah, so I would be I would like to try
that again next expansion with some because my problems with
those have usually just been that they've made the acquisitions
on those systems. But if they just didn't do that,
I think that could be. Yeah, that could be the vibe.

Speaker 2 (14:06):
Also, the thing that largely defined the borrowed Power era
of this game wasn't actually like what's the first thing
you think about, It's not the things that we really like.
It's not essences or corruption, right it is. It is
artifact and azraight power. It was the infinitely grindable thing
that you could do outside of content all the time.

(14:27):
I don't think that should come back, but I think
you could easily add a lot of those other things
without that, So I agree with you. Also, like the
wholely change in the way your class plays. I find
that to be kind of polarizing because like going into
certain patches, that's kind of what tear sets have done
in the past, and I think you've seen massive hidden misses,
like if your specific class it does change the way

(14:50):
you play, but it's not in the best way. Then
you're kind of like, I don't really like that concept,
you know, I kind of like the version of the
class that I play, and I know I can log
in and enjoy every patch. Like changing it all the
time is so like polarizing that I don't know if
I like that. And the thing that the Borrow Power
expansions did was it wasn't a one off, one tier
tier set thing. They were kind of like committing to

(15:11):
a play style for each spec at the beginning of
the expansion, and then you just kind of had to
make it work, you know, tier sets. If they get
just get one wrong tier set, they can kind of
just be like, I will like fix it next patch,
but for the player, you kind of fuck it up
for a whole season. But like why it was never
really controversial in those expansions is you couldn't let it
be bad, because you just can't let a class be
not have its bit be fun the whole expansion.

Speaker 1 (15:32):
Yeah, it's like here right right, Like there's no there's
no class except for Rogue that just has three hero
talents that are boring and suck all expansion.

Speaker 2 (15:39):
So yeah, yeah, yeah exactly. But the I don't know,
I think going down that line makes it so. Yeah,
it is different, but it's different in a way where
it's actually pretty fun and they have to make sure
that it's good. At least it seemed like the quality
was higher. I don't think you're wrong. Also dorky, Like
if you look at what it felt like to from

(16:00):
Legion to BFA or even BFA to Dragonflight, those were
all just like distinctly different. Dragon dude, going from BFA
to Dragonfly or uh sorry, Shadowlands. The Dragonflight was crazy
because you like the first time you're interacting with that
talent tree, you were able to pick things that were
on the same row and the mop talent trees for
like ten years for the first sign like that was
massively different. But you're right, the hero talents, in being

(16:22):
a little bit more passive, are also like kind of
innately less interesting, right, because at least expansion to expansion,
it does you saying it feels like dragon Flight two
point zero. I mean I feel like the War Within
is it is Dragonflight two point zero. Like if you
look at the way what expansions do, like Legion was
trying to do something totally different than BFA, BFA was
trying to do something totally different than shadow Lands, and

(16:42):
then Dragonflight was trying to do something totally different than Shadowlands, right,
but but the War Within is not trying to do
anything really differently than Dragonfly. They're like even word for
word saying, we're just building on what we did, right,
Like I imagine.

Speaker 1 (16:55):
The only place that changed is like the story, right,
but aside from that, there's it's it doesn't represent any
like the core gameplay. They're basically like, yeah, we like
what we did with Dragonflight.

Speaker 2 (17:04):
We're running a back Yeah. Not to mention this, we're
in the middle of a trilogy of expansions, are about
to be in the middle of it. You assume they're
going to try to do some hype ass shit during that,
and they mentioned Dragonflight in this expansion as like as
we're calling it. Dragon Flight two point zero is a
rebuilding expansion. The whole premise of rebuilding, whether it's in sports,
or I guess anything is you don't want to do

(17:26):
it forever. You're in a rebuild phase because you want
to end up getting everything at its baseline good, and
then you want to kind of grow from that, right
and move on and going back to doing what you
were doing or like improving in other ways. So I
guess maybe the question is, are we done building the
baseline of the game. We like completely rebuilt professions, we
rebuilt the talent trees. We uh, you know, everything they
did in the last two expansions, the UI major major emphasis, right, Like,

(17:50):
are we at the point where that is still being
worked on? But you know, we're not doing a dragon
Flight three point zero. I think all of us would
probably say we'd rather not have a dragon Flight three
point zero and rather them be a little bit more creative.

Speaker 3 (18:03):
Yeah, I mean, Dannals is right. It is definitely a
worry because one thing Blizzer has done a really good
job with this expansion in particular is balance. Like, regardless
of how much people complain and wind about god Comps
or whatever, maybe the balance has been better than almost
ever before. And I think that's largely due to the

(18:25):
class is just not changing too much, because like usually
what Blizzard does is they make it extremely hard for
themselves to balance this game. Like they've they've added so
many different factors to this game, whether it's like hero
talent or like tear sets and the types of different
damage profile, different types of cool downs. It just becomes
literally impossible to balance because you're changing shit all the time.

(18:48):
But if you keep things relatively the same, then it
becomes a much more manageable product. But at the same time, yeah,
I mean, like there's a whole fun concern. It's like
when you were saying how BFA two shadow Lands felt
really different, I really felt that. I remember playing shadow
Lands Beta and I remember getting so excited over just
everything that I was doing in shadow Lands, and like yeah,

(19:11):
I mean yeah, like shadow Lands sucked, right because like
everyone didn't like how shadow Lands played. But at the
same time, I just remember being like a blood decay
and light fade bloody can that was like that was
fucking sick, Like that was so fucking cool.

Speaker 2 (19:23):
I Mean the reason that people were mad was because
of how much they cooked, you know what I mean, Like, like,
no one's mad that you can't change covenants if all
the covenants weren't really fucking cool, and you wanted to
do that because they gave you a bunch of different
options that you didn't have previously.

Speaker 3 (19:39):
Yeah, but yeah, I mean if you just don't really
have that excitement anymore, if they don't really change classes
and there's like something for.

Speaker 2 (19:46):
You to like really look forward to.

Speaker 3 (19:48):
But that also time a question, would would it be
okay if they went back on certain classes, like went
back in class design, say like having the months of
for example, what if they just like went back to
Legion DH because that of it is like a form
of the Hunter that a lot of people were very
fond of, right or even like BFA Team Hunter for
some people, then the Mover or Rogues right like Rogues right now,

(20:10):
a lot of people miss.

Speaker 2 (20:12):
Unhappy that's a class that has been like kind of
felt like it hasn't been focused on a lot.

Speaker 3 (20:17):
Yeah, Like, would would that be bad for Blizzard to
go back on class design? Because with Mob Classic coming out,
it's a lot of people haven't talked about how like,
oh man, this class or bad class feels amazing to play,
Like how bad is it for Blizards to just go
back on some of these classes?

Speaker 2 (20:32):
I think, well that is also changing the game.

Speaker 1 (20:33):
Revert on anything is pretty much is is not never
something they would ever do. But I do think like
doing a redesign to try and recapture some of the
stuff that people liked about older versions of stuff is
definitely that's definitely allowed.

Speaker 2 (20:48):
I think they're constantly in a cycle of trying to
do that, right.

Speaker 1 (20:51):
Yeah, like that that is something they every every every patch.
They do that for Shadow Breeze. That hasn't worked yet,
but at some point it might.

Speaker 2 (21:00):
Yeah. I mean like I feel like they're constantly in
a like think about even Havoc Team Hunter, right like,
even within this whole Dragonfly Dragonflight two point zero saga,
we've gone from like bringing momentum back to basically killing
it just within two expansions. Now that's not bringing it
exactly back to like like Janto said, they're never going
to be like, you know what, Havoc was great in

(21:22):
Legion now with let's navigate getting them exactly back to
that point. I think it's always like a constant moving
target of like what are the pain points right now
and where can we be and probably some overall vision
of how it plays. But like they've They've done that
with a lot of with a lot of classes, and
even especially in Legion. What I loved about Havoc and
Legion was actually momentum bloodlet, which is something they just killed,

(21:43):
not the bloodlet. They have a bunch of, like you
know in quotes blood let talents that enable you to
like throw a wave in it matter and making it
free and all that stuff just happened when you Blaye dance.
But it's the uh, the momentum part, like they've decided
to kill the same thing with like a like like
Frosty k and in Legion was awesome too, but like
breath is dead forever now they've killed breath, And I

(22:06):
don't know if that's necessarily a bad thing for I mean,
I hate it, but Frosty ks might like it. I
just feel like class design is an ongoing process. I wonder,
I wonder, actually we should maybe even tell from our viewers,
Like I wonder what class the most or maybe group
of classes is, Like it's not nostalgia, and I can

(22:26):
explain to you why, but our class used to be
so much better and now it's bad, and I wish
they would go back to that. And they gave you know,
and it was like, if you had all of these
people vote, it would be like a widely seen opinion,
because I know there's like the high end of the
game and the low end of the game. Oftentimes don't
necessarily agree on those things, but you hear it repeated

(22:48):
so much in your stream chats that you just assume
the amount of people you hear from are like the
objectively correct one's breath is like a huge one there.
If I talk to my stream, everyone's a fan of breath.
But like, if you talk to you the average frosty
k that is not true. So, like I wonder, I
wonder what classes that would actually apply to you, because
so many are so different from what they Rogue.

Speaker 3 (23:06):
I think it's like rogue for the general public, havoc
for it depends on which generation.

Speaker 1 (23:13):
And Ferreal for the probably Like sure.

Speaker 2 (23:18):
Yeah, snapshotting, well, I mean Farrell's had one of the
only classes actually to have snapshot elements in their kit.
But yeah, I mean they were the class that had
the biggest dots that if you could snapshot them you
got the biggest benefit from it.

Speaker 3 (23:33):
Yeah, it definitely doesn't feel like a bleed speck nowadays,
it feels very much like bite oriented, bro. It's literally yeah,
it's just not nearly as one as what rake is.

Speaker 2 (23:42):
The rip is rupture and then your ferocious bite is
a vis and you just spam that shit. It's the same.
They made it the same spec because one of the
worst decisions they've made in a while.

Speaker 1 (23:51):
Here, here's my question is Okay, like obviously they have
to they have to do stuff ever expansion, right, Like
they have to. You can't just not do anything. Then
people will be like, what's the point why am I
buying this? Nothing has happened. I think that was a big,
a big like casual criticism or not casual, but like
medium investment player criticism of like wad right, was they
kind of didn't didn't do anything new that expansion, right?

(24:17):
Could they get away with doing that if they did
it in an expansion with housing and all this other stuff? Right, Like, okay,
you have silver Mon gets attacked or whatever we're assuming
maybe happens, and like you've got this big story stuff
going on, you're reworking some part of the world like that,
like you introduce player housing. Is all of that enough

(24:39):
to then not have to actually do something on the
order of like a big a hero talent size thing
to classes or do you still have to do that
or else people will call it, you know, a dead expansion.

Speaker 2 (24:52):
No, that's I.

Speaker 3 (24:53):
Mean, I think that's something that will like capture player's attention,
but it's not something that will keep players.

Speaker 2 (24:59):
Well. I I really wondered why the War Within didn't
pop off because I had this theory part of it
was dumb where it's just like you looked at that
graph they had from that one convention and it just
showed like the big spikes and it was basically like
every other expansion or every three, it's like people just
collectively have this feeling like, oh, it'd be cool if

(25:19):
I played a Wow expansion again, and you just kind
of need time away from it, kind of like an
AIRPG season. And I was like, Okay, it didn't really
pop off, And like I feel like now that we're
talking about this, it gives me a little bit of
clarity because like it was still like not entirely in
the COVID era, but still like retained a lot of
COVID Like I remember when we had Dragonfly talent trees
and everything like that beta cycle was crazy for viewership

(25:41):
because everyone was playing Shadowlands and COVID, and even though
that expansion went already in a lot of ways, they
were still paying attention to news, they were still invested,
and then going into War Within, it was like peak
investment right like right into a mirror. Still they had
the blizz com where the announced the worlds Soulsaga, and
the hype for the World's Soul Saga was like all
time high. You saw crazy numbers in season three, like

(26:04):
historic stuff, so that all that hype was there, and
then the War Within just didn't really catch on that much.
And I really wonder now part of what we care
about is like just the game plan. Who knows how
many people think just like us. But I'd like to
agree with what you said earlier to Urki about how
the most important thing is just how your class plays
and how interesting and maybe different it is. I wonder

(26:26):
if the fact that this was Dragonflight two point zero
was why the beginning of the World's Sol Saga didn't
like super pop off, because it's kind of the only
expansion maybe in Wow's history. I don't want to go
back too far, but certainly in the last ten years,
like just before Legion where from expansion to expansion, what
you were doing was not majorly different. Like here, talents

(26:46):
again were not majorly different from the talent trees we
had already or how you interacted with them. But like
every other expansion was just huge, you know, like massive.
Some of them didn't hit, you know, Legion to azrd
Armor didn't hit, but you know, BFA boks throughout It's
It's time. I wonder if really it was just the
collective feeling. Was this is just I've just that people

(27:06):
played the first two weeks, the first bit of season one,
and they're like, I've done this before, this isn't I
don't have these new crazy things going on. So yeah,
you guys have convinced me. I think it Blizzard's doing anything.
Rip some fucking let's go. Let's go back to borrow
power just exclusively without artifact power grinding. Uh, I'm down.
I think that I think the game needs to feel

(27:28):
different next expansion.

Speaker 1 (27:29):
My question is like, how many of the people that
look at war Within and are like, oh, this isn't
interesting or cool enough, how many of them would have
been sold if the story was more like appealing to them,
because you know, war Within had a story or whatever.
But like it sort of does this the same old
thing that Wow always does of like, oh there's a
new island, go explore the new island, and you know,

(27:52):
killed it, kill its detizens or whatever. Right, But if
it was like a wrath of the Lichking level, you know,
compelling story to people that have played some Warcraft three
and or people that like.

Speaker 2 (28:02):
Isn't that what they're trying to build up?

Speaker 1 (28:04):
I think so, yeah, But I think it didn't happen
in war Within, Like yeah, but maybe it doesn't miit worse.
So maybe if Midnight comes in and it has that
you know something, silver Moon is under attack or whatever,
you've got the elves everybody loves elves or whatever. And
also player housing is there, and also the classes are good,
even if they haven't changed too much more Within, I

(28:25):
wonder if those three things would connect with enough separate
sets of the audience, like each person, probably at least
one of those things sounds pretty great to everybody, even
if it's not all of them. I don't know, no,
you know, so.

Speaker 3 (28:42):
I thought about a little bit, and I think this
is why player housing wouldn't be enough because of delves.
I mean, maybe it could be completely wrong about us,
But I feel like Delves have been kind of a
failure of his expansion. Delves didn't really hit. I mean,
we don't even ever really talk about Dell's leak. Deves
are nice, right, Like, don't get me wrong. I know
a lot of people do Delves and they probably enjoy them,

(29:05):
but it really didn't hit with the mass audience. You know,
it's not something that kevit player is playing. The fact
that people don't even talk about Delves anymore is kind
of telling it. That's kind of how I see player
housing too, Like it's gonna be something that'll draw players
in and it'll be for sure good for the game,
but it's not something that would keep players playing.

Speaker 1 (29:24):
My suspicion is that Delves could succeed or fail and
would look pretty similar to us either way, Like.

Speaker 2 (29:32):
We, yeah, what do you mean?

Speaker 1 (29:34):
Like we saying that we aren't the people who are
gonna know if it's like, uh like if Monster Trucks
has a killer year or not, We're not the people
who are gonna know that, And like our friends aren't
gonna be the ones that such.

Speaker 3 (29:47):
Like we're not herevid how you know I'm not into
that I'm.

Speaker 1 (29:49):
Just I'm taking a while to guess here. If you're
if you're a monster truck dad, that you got me,
My analogy is going to crumble.

Speaker 2 (29:56):
You know.

Speaker 3 (29:56):
I mean, so we've said that a lot about Dells,
but like you know, I remember grossling, there was a
lot to then who is it for, right, because it's
there's definitely not been a whole lot of buzz around it.

Speaker 2 (30:06):
So yeah, it's like.

Speaker 1 (30:08):
Never watch World Warcraft twitch, Yeah, exactly, that's right.

Speaker 2 (30:11):
Yeah, but like how are we we We are no
more in touch with those people now than we were
a year ago. So like it's just the whole like
we're a streamer and trying to get consensus from the community.
But there's but you know, potentially this really massive part
of the community you don't really hear from. But you
also can never really confirm that you know, there's no
it's just kind of you just assume that it's there.

Speaker 1 (30:30):
But if on the other hand, if if this expansion
hasn't popped off in like the metrics, which I don't know,
I don't know if there's are there published like subscriber
numbers anywhere or anything that.

Speaker 2 (30:40):
They haven't done that for a couple of years. They
did it at that one convention where they rightly kind
of showed that, But no, I don't think, yeah, no,
it's another convention.

Speaker 1 (30:50):
Unless we get that. I guess there's kind of no
way to really test that hypothesis at all. We just
kind of have to guess and go off of the
one or two comments here that we all we can
say I hate him.

Speaker 2 (31:02):
Well maybe not all we can say, but we can
we can confidently speak for people that play the game
like us or for ourselves, and I think that at
least for us, delves were certainly I would say, a failure,
and not like most things where like, oh, they create
it and then two years later it gets better. That's true.
But I don't think even two years from now, any
of us are going to be like Dell Zone. I
think it's clearly was maybe never designed for us, certainly,

(31:25):
but even the part they I think did try to
design for or if there's any part of it that
was geared towards us, it was that little zek veer
final delve like they I believe they literally use the
words Mage Tower like challenge at the end of every
season you can look forward to, and I think that's
like definitely not hit so but who knows. Maybe, I

(31:47):
mean we'll be able to tell, I think going into
next expansion. If they're like heavily iterating on delves, I
think that kind of tells you that, like enough people
care about them, so it's not like Warfronts and where
they just instantly killed that shit, right they were like, Okay,
this didn't work. If they if they're like still heavy
cooking on dells and they announced the expansion, I would
assume that a lot of people are doing them and

(32:10):
are I mean, of course they're doing them. Like if
they're it's whether they like them, you know, because like
there's a reason for a community to do them, especially
ones that don't do a lot of keys or raid.
That's like kind of the point. But that depends whether
they actually actively like doing them or not. You know,
I don't know how they're getting that feedback. We never
hear from them. Maybe they do.

Speaker 3 (32:28):
I mean, one thing I do hear a lot is
they always talk about the rewards behind dellves, but not
necessarily the gameplay itself. It's always like, oh, yeah, delves
are great. You know, they actually give us a hero track,
glue or whatever, maybe, but it's never all the content
itself is like super fun and amazing. It's always just
the rewards.

Speaker 1 (32:45):
But basically I mean that that is important though, right,
like having a way without any friends, without being good
at the game to actually get.

Speaker 2 (32:52):
Do you think it is the thing.

Speaker 3 (32:54):
It also matters too, though, like for it to be
fun while you're reading the reward, you.

Speaker 1 (32:58):
Know, the of making it fun. There were versions of
Delves they could have made that would have been fun
or interesting for us, that would have resembled more you know,
the Mage Tower or even horrific visions, those kinds of things,
and that's not this I will say, from like reading
Reddit or Twitter or whatever, the biggest complaint that I've
seen about Delves from people that do them has seemed

(33:21):
to be that the underpin fight is too hard, like
the the the end boss under that sad.

Speaker 2 (33:28):
So that is fascinating, I think, Okay, that proves the
whole like the majority of people that delves are made
for people we never hear from. Because I was just saying,
and it seemed like you all agreed in consensus that
it wasn't really that good, and it's because it's not
challenging enough yeah, right, that's the that's that's our take,
and if the majority of the complaints are it's actually

(33:50):
too hard, just shows that, at least for the dell
of audience, we're just which we expected, We're just totally
not We don't get it.

Speaker 1 (33:57):
I've just searched on the Wow Reddit the word underpin,
sorted by relevance. The top one is why is question
mark question mark underpin so fucking ridiculous? The second one
is I've beat the underpin, but he's the most frustrating
encounter in the game. The third one is struggling with underpin,
save yourself some stress and do it as a blood decay.

(34:18):
It's easy, which that is actually very true. It's a
lot easier that way. Yeah. Yeah, I've done it on
a lot of different like on five, I've done it
as a DPS and then a few different tanks. Because
I have this thing where if there's a question in
my quest blog and it's annoying me, I like getting
rid of it and I need I need questlog space sometimes,
So I did that. Yeah. Yeah, that bothers me too,

(34:40):
and I don't want to have vandon it, so I
just go do it. And yeah, so it's like there
is a lot of uh, there are a lot of
complaining posts about it on the way I Reddit. So
that's my that's my hypothesis there.

Speaker 3 (35:01):
I'm gonna chat GBT this what is the consensus on delt.

Speaker 2 (35:06):
Random side note, I've never typed anything on purpose into
AI ever, Like you just said, all type this in
a chat GBT. I don't even know how you do that, bro, I.

Speaker 3 (35:14):
I've been using this so much this past week. I
never used this shit before, but like I started usually
visit budd.

Speaker 1 (35:20):
Do you see the things.

Speaker 3 (35:21):
That's complete nonsense sometimes so useful.

Speaker 1 (35:24):
Hey, the way that the AIS are working right now,
they're like super sickophants right where they like they're just like, wow,
that's so smart and insightful. I think you've really nailed it.
And then they, you know, they just always like hype
up whatever you said and agree with you, and there's.

Speaker 2 (35:39):
Like, dude, that's what I need a yes man, Yeah exactly.

Speaker 1 (35:42):
That's but it's like apparently doing a lot of damage
to some people, Like there are people that are basically
getting one shot by that, and.

Speaker 2 (35:48):
You know, yeah, of course getting a relationship.

Speaker 1 (35:49):
Advice or whatever into it, and then just like, oh yeah,
see it says I'm right about this divorce.

Speaker 2 (35:54):
Right to validate your terrible Yeah. No, I mean, if
you the only people I know that I see in
my daily life that that use AI are like Twitter users,
and they'll basically just see a very cut and dry
news article and then they can't actually read it or
reason or anything like that, and it's in the comments section.
They're like, at Grock, what does this mean? At Grock?
Is this true?

Speaker 1 (36:15):
Right?

Speaker 2 (36:15):
And then obviously, you know, so many people on Twitter
and all social media are just either willingly or unwillingly
in an echo chamber already and just getting their own
ideas validated and throwing out anything that makes them uncomfortable.
And if the AI is is doubling down on that,
like you know, you're so right, bro, you know what
I mean? Like that is actually I feel like that

(36:36):
could do serious well maybe serious long term damage. But
I don't know if it's long term, if it's damage
that hasn't already been done or isn't have been happening
for a while.

Speaker 3 (36:43):
But yeah, so here's what I've got. This sounds like
journals right now. Maybe drenals are just really right about everything.

Speaker 1 (36:48):
A lot. Maybe I'm just the human version of chat
GPT where I just come up with the thing that
sounds good to eat, to say to the most people.

Speaker 2 (36:55):
Yeah, the fence sitter, Yeah, exactly, what's to say though.

Speaker 3 (37:00):
Okay, overwhelming consensus is that you can read it.

Speaker 1 (37:03):
Your als read stuff. You can read that.

Speaker 2 (37:04):
Okay.

Speaker 3 (37:05):
Delves are a valuable and much needed addition to World
of Warcraft, especially for its large solo and small group
player base, So it's good. However, the execution has room
for improvement, particularly regarding rewards scaling for higher solo tier,
increase the mechanical depth, and refinements of difficulty scaling beyond.

Speaker 2 (37:24):
Just row numbers.

Speaker 3 (37:25):
Just like argually what we've said about THELM. Sorry, yeah, particularly.

Speaker 2 (37:31):
W clankers, they got it right, yeah, they That being said, though,
I imagine how AI works, at least where you're looking at
it right now, as they're like they scour the internet
and like and then they summarize, and I think the
majority of Delves stuff that sounds like people's take on Delves,
like before the expansion came out, like here's what theoretically
delves should be for the game, and it kind of

(37:52):
just said that and I think that's when the most
discourse happened, so that would heavily weigh the opinion of
of that. I'm not sure do we need an AI
to like wherever this this group of people that we
cannot interact with and they want totally different things out
of the game from us. I need an AI to
get in there wherever the fuck that is, and then
like summarize how they're feeling. That would be so fucking

(38:14):
helpful for us to summarize how they're feeling, because they're
just like this group of people we never see or
hear from.

Speaker 3 (38:22):
You'm asking what do more people think about Yes, think
about builds?

Speaker 1 (38:29):
I think yeah. I mean you're definitely right Max that
there was a set of people that decided they liked
delves before they ever.

Speaker 2 (38:35):
Played one, and then just by the concept.

Speaker 1 (38:38):
Yeah yeah, just because the concept sounded good. But I
think those people, if it had sucked, if it had
been like Warfronts level bad, would have turned on it.
At least most of them would have. Maybe maybe not
because maybe their rewards are there. I don't know.

Speaker 2 (38:50):
The little I remember hearing from those people was like
first season, when I remember vividly one day on stream
I was just like, yeah, guys, so Delves didn't hit
huh at the beginning of like season one, which was
probably when they were at their worst, and they were like, nah, dude,
I fuck with Delves. They're like, I totally get it.
This is I play like solo and it's like easier
to do than dungeons. And I was like, oh shit.

(39:13):
And I haven't talked about it since, but I remember
feeling pretty confident that they were all going to agree
with me, and they were like, no, actually, these are
nice dude.

Speaker 3 (39:21):
There's an official definition for the term mole people in
World of war Craft community. You general refers to players
who primarily engage with solo or very small group content,
often preferring to avoid but social pressures and complexities of
traditional endgame activities like raid and plus and structured. If
you'd this isn't derogatory within the community, but rather up
playful and sometimes self depreciating way to describe players who

(39:45):
burrow into less visible and more independent play styles.

Speaker 2 (39:49):
Well is that actually? I think that's what mole people
ended up meaning, But I don't think that was the
initial reason existing at all. Growl invented the term, right, Yeah,
I think so, so if I remember, it is people
who do not want to be challenged. It's like the
way that that just described it was just like like
I think what most people would refer to, and it's

(40:10):
a very subjective term, but like most people would refer
to as just a casual player, right, but I think
most people was like, under no circumstances do I want?
I like to play games and never be challenged ever,
which is not true of most casual players in my opinion.
Like I think some people want the challenge to just

(40:32):
be adequate to them, which is usually where there's friction
between hardcore players. But the idea that no one would
ever want any sink of challenge, like most people playing
a game like to get challenge at whatever level it
is that is comfortable for them, and then they overcome it.
Who knows well.

Speaker 1 (40:49):
Some discussions on the edit mentioned Potty c Allow podcast
using the term and also debate whether it's used derisively
or descriptively.

Speaker 2 (40:58):
Yeah, as we're doing right now, it knows.

Speaker 1 (41:01):
Yeah, I had thought that it originally. I thought his
original bit when talking about it was like, I don't
know any of these people. I don't know if they exist,
So they're kind of like like mole people in the Yeah,
there's people who've been living under the exactly like there
are people that have been invisible to me. But it's
nice because it's a great term because it does it
could mean any of those things or all of them.

(41:25):
The yeah, that's great, really genius.

Speaker 2 (41:30):
It didn't make the people as mad either. It became
a meme like specifically, I think civilian is something similar
to that, but specifically that term civilian has made people
so mad, Like you get there's been even podcast episodes
of US where we have just mentioned that word in
passing and it actually just dominated the comment section because
the perceived intent of that is to be extremely rude

(41:51):
or derogatory towards casuals. I think is like the general idea,
even though that's not really what that means. But we
were just civilian just as a as a that makes
the people not happy. It's a good word.

Speaker 1 (42:04):
Yeah, it's nice. It hits a couple of days because
then there you also got the like veterans coming in
being like mad about you know, use it a use
the word civilian.

Speaker 2 (42:13):
Oh, I haven't seen that.

Speaker 1 (42:14):
There was one. I saw one one comment that was
like Uh, that was from that perspective.

Speaker 3 (42:20):
Okay, So what is the best way of describing a
person who's a civilian, because I mean, if you call
them casuals, that's like derogatory. If you call them nubes,
that's theroatory.

Speaker 2 (42:29):
Why is casual derogatory?

Speaker 3 (42:32):
Well, because you know, for the longest time, it's like
you're either a real player or a hardcore player or
you're just like a filthy casual.

Speaker 2 (42:40):
It's definitely been a filthy The word filthy ads So yeah, sure,
but I mean, you know there's a reason why it
was filthy, right, I guess Like I'm just like like
if someone like I play some games casually, like I've
load up fucking Mario Kart on on the switch and
I'm not I'm not like jumping off walls like bro

(43:02):
the skill ceiling in that game is crazy, but I
can still enjoy just like playing it. I would definitely
say it because I can play other games not casually.
I'm playing that game casually. If someone just say you're
a casual Mario Kart I'd be like, you are right,
Like that is accurate. That is that is a that
is a true statement. If someone plays Wow for you
know a lot of even potentially a lot of time
a week. I guess this goes into how subjective the
term casual even is, because like there are casuals who

(43:24):
play the game a lot more than us, but they
don't rate at a high level or do dungeons at
a high level. They're just collecting and like they just
fucking love the game. Right, is that casual is casual
determined by how high level of you play or how
many hours you play? Right, There's multiple things there, But
like I think a lot of people that like don't
care about being good log in whenever, Like if you

(43:44):
called them a casual, that would just be like kind
of like an accurate description. I just don't know where
the negative connotation necessarily came from.

Speaker 1 (43:51):
Yeah, well, because that's some people mean it that way.
And then so if you say it and you don't
mean it that way and you mean something else in
your head, you're like, oh, man, what I should do
is I should invent a new term that means what
I'm actually trying to say. And then the problem is
people don't hear you explain what it means, and they
just hear you use the term, and then they think
in their head of what that probably means, and then
they you know, it also has a negative connotation to them,

(44:12):
and you can't escape it. You just have to define
it every time.

Speaker 3 (44:16):
Yeah, it's implied inferiority. That's why you're implying that someone
is just like worse than you at the game. And
if there's one thing that you can't talk about in
these types of games is you can't ever talk about
someone's skill level. You never want to just like bring
someone down because you're not as good.

Speaker 2 (44:32):
At the game.

Speaker 3 (44:33):
Now, it's like I've always said, it's completely fine to suck,
like there's no problem being bad at the game, But
like in World Warcraft, that's not okay. You know, it's
like it's part of your social tag, it's part of
your social score. If if you suck, you just have
a lower social score than anyone else.

Speaker 2 (44:48):
I guess I think that's really interesting to me. And
I've seen that what you just said confirmed a few times,
like one that I know that at least if you're
more knowledgeable about the subject, this is very obvious to you.
But it was just something like how I remember saying
something about like how the skill level ramps just crazy
high in the race as you go, and like higher

(45:09):
and higher guilds, or even just the basic sentiment that
like kind of on average, if you're in a higher
ranked guild, there's a you know, there's a chance that
you're better, not not in like maybe like rank sixty
to sixty one or even sixty to one hundred. And
there's the whole rate hour thing, but like generally speaking,
someone who's rating in a world five hundred gild versus
like a world top fifty, that the person world top
fifty is a lot more invested, spends a lot more time,

(45:29):
and then very naturally is just gonna end up being
better most of the time, right, spending more time Not
always true, but like generally true. And then I remember
talking about like the skill level at the top of
the race world first, and like what we do to
recruit and like how many people are able to play
at this level, And I remember just a few sentiments
from chat being like, bro, you're so full shit, Like
you don't know what you're talking about, Like so many

(45:49):
people could do what you do, it's just they don't
have the time, like they could. If they could, if
they could make your rate hours right now, they'd be
just as good. All of us are that good, right,
It's just a it's just you know, and like you
just can't explain to those people what it's actually like
because they've just already decided that like skill specifically is
such a touchy subject, even though it's totally reasonable to

(46:14):
not spend nearly as much time as all the degenerates
in my guild have been playing Wow all day every
day instead of going to college or getting a job
for like eight years, Like they should be better than
you because of that. It's not an insult to your
intelligence or anything like that. It's purely just time and uh,
you know, and I'm not even saying they're like superior
to you as a person, just like specifically at this

(46:36):
you would assume that they would that just you know,
the skill level can go crazy if you spend a
ton of time on it. But I think just you're
you're right in the skill level thing specifically is just
a really touchy subject, even if it would be totally
reasonable and logical that someone would be better than you
at something.

Speaker 3 (46:51):
I've seen that used as authority too, because whenever people
talk about content creators, I usually hear it's being brought up,
whether it's like, you know, the titles or preach or
asmen goal or whoever may be right, Like there's always
somebody who's like, all right, you know that guy. They
don't disregard their opinion because they suck, right, Like I've

(47:11):
heard that so many times. It's not about like whether
or not they're right or if they're like fine with
their opinion about certain topics. It's always just like, Okay,
they suck at the video game, therefore there's no point
in listening to them. And I like I've heard his
regarding so many different content creators. It doesn't even matter
who it is.

Speaker 2 (47:29):
Yeah, yeah, that's dumb too, because like I think the
majority of wild players in that description would suck using
that exact word. So wouldn't someone giving takes on the
game that as those people are describing them sucks whether
that's true or not. Wouldn't they actually be the person
representing the majority of the people's interest in a way

(47:50):
Like not really, but why would that immediately disqualify them
other than just being a purely elitist like can't think
any other way kind of thing.

Speaker 1 (48:00):
That is a good point, and that that's why we've
decided to go off the air. We've we've heard your
we've heard everybody's complaints that we're too you know, elitists
and play the game at too high a level to
actually have good takes on this, and that we agree,
we're we're hanging up, we're done here.

Speaker 2 (48:14):
Yeah, we're done. And then and then the comments would
say something like, I don't actually have an issue with
what you guys say on the podcast. It's the fact
that Blizzard people listen to you.

Speaker 1 (48:24):
Dude that comment like, it didn't it didn't one shot you,
but it came close.

Speaker 2 (48:28):
Yeah, it game close to one shotting me yet.

Speaker 1 (48:32):
Uh oh man. Yeah, I feel like there's there's to
go back to your point, Dorky about like people being
bad at Wow being used to discredit them. There's definitely
this thing where you sort of people there's sort of
a rather than people being good at some stuff and
bad at some stuff, or like knowledgeable in some areas
and you know, not as knowledgeable in others. There's sort

(48:55):
of this instinct that we have, especially on the Internet,
to sort of conflate it all together and be like, well,
this person knows what they're talking about on this, therefore
they probably know what they're talking about on everything, right,
and or like, oh, this person said one dumb thing,
or I've watched them play this video game and they
sucked at it. Therefore I can now ignore all of
their opinions on everything else and just like definitely not

(49:16):
how it works. But the fact that a lot of
people think that way makes saying somebody's bad at a
video game and insult at them right, because you're you're
a lot of people are going to hear that as well.
We should just never listen to this person on anything
because they can't be an authority because they suck at
the video game.

Speaker 2 (49:33):
Yeah, or that, Like, I think people have said that
in terms of developers too, They're like, oh, yeah, yeah, developers,
these guys fucking suck at the game. But like, I
think you could, and I'm sure there's probably plenty of
examples of this if we knew more people. But there's
people who are probably not good at actively playing a
game and just like have genuinely high gaming skill, but

(49:54):
are awesome at designing things and have probably created some
of the all of the classes you guys have loved
to played over many many years, and you don't actually
have to be good at playing them to make them.

Speaker 1 (50:04):
Yeah, yeah, and not to mention, not to mention. I
think the average player that says that would be shocked
by how many like high level players there are on
a lot of dev teams and how good a lot
of them actually are. But even then it's yeah, it's
definitely just not true that you have to be the
best player to be a good game designer, although there
is a type of personality that I think does lead

(50:27):
to like hubris in some game developers where the sort
of like thinks that there's no merit to being good
at games, and that I that I see sometimes from
like in posts from game designers that I disagree with
on a lot of stuff. So yeah, a little bit
of a little bit of truth to it.

Speaker 2 (50:46):
Maybe I'm sure there's been hubris with game designers, yeah,
like or there's people that's like another statement is like
devs don't play the game, they don't like their job.
I would like to think that like, if you, guys,
ever done a job and you genuinely are not super
passionate or vested in that thing, it would be so
hard for you to do a good job, and you
would actively be looking to quit, Like, I know, I
know that, Uh, there's probably been people that are just like, man,

(51:08):
I need the paycheck right now, and I'm so over this.
But like, I don't know if I would assume most
people at a job like that don't last very long,
because once you're kind of over something, you're over it.
Like basically the whole game that they don't even like
the game thing, it's kind of insane to assume that
they would continue sitting there working on it and not
go work at another game or do something else if
they genuinely didn't like the game that they were designing.

Speaker 3 (51:29):
This actually reminds me. Do you guys remember that this
was way back when the album four first came out
and they had I think it was like the people
who were in charge of art or whoever streaming like
live streaming gameplay. It was put on YouTube or some shit.
Oh yeah, got yes, they got shit on from the
YouTube comments. I did that YouTube.

Speaker 2 (51:49):
That was a dark day.

Speaker 3 (51:50):
Extremely disliked that one.

Speaker 2 (51:53):
Shot the fuck out of me, dorky. I actually totally
you just unlocked that memory for me. But I remember
watching that and watching the discourse of these two artists
play the game and they were they had no idea
how to play the game. Well for sure they were
like completely close, but why would you care? You you
exast stuff, But like the O, that was one of
the darkest. That was That was a day I was

(52:13):
ashamed and absolutely ashamed to be a gamer.

Speaker 3 (52:17):
God, I wass you go find it? Did they delete
my video? I don't remember.

Speaker 2 (52:20):
I think they did because of the backlash they were getting.
I remember something like that happened and it was or
I remember them saying that they weren't going to do
a lot more dev insight videos because of the reaction
to that, And I was just like, they're not wrong
for doing that, And I bet those people feel like shit.
And there's a I identify as a gamer and today
is one of those days where that feels pretty tough

(52:41):
because that is so shitty. Or or when like gamers
like don't like a voice actress in a video game
and send them death threats. Those are other days that
that's pretty brutal.

Speaker 1 (52:57):
Yeah, that's not our not our finest look as gamers.
Sometimes not our finest hour. Actually, most times, there's a
there's big Actually there's been some there's been some heartwarm
big cases of gamers in the general media, but I
would say much of the time that we sort of
break through into into actual non gamers faces. It's a

(53:20):
little bit, a little bit embarrassing.

Speaker 2 (53:23):
Yeah, I remember remember when we burst onto the scene
and Ninja did that New Year's Eve party.

Speaker 1 (53:29):
That was the high watermark for the culture.

Speaker 2 (53:31):
Yeah, yeah, that was when the world saw us coming.
Gamers were rising up, so we sent them our best Ninja.
That was great.

Speaker 1 (53:41):
Oh man, Okay, do you guys want to do patriarch question?
By any chance, didn't se where we're at?

Speaker 2 (53:48):
Yeah, yeah, I saw it.

Speaker 3 (53:50):
That was kind of interesting too, But we.

Speaker 2 (53:52):
Do that first.

Speaker 1 (53:53):
Okay, No, we could do your what did you see?

Speaker 3 (53:58):
So apparently an EU pug rating community clears eight out
of eight mythic liberation of on their mind. That's pretty hype.

Speaker 2 (54:08):
Wow, you were to poll counts to.

Speaker 3 (54:11):
Muggsy two hundred and twenty one.

Speaker 2 (54:12):
Holy okay, I'm first thing I'm gonna say now if
this is actually I mean, first of all, grats right,
this is okay. I already realized it's gonna sound like
I'm totally shitting all over this, but I chat they
were like, yeah, dude, were able to PUG six bosses
and like, oh, that's crazy, Like you just got it's like, yeah,
well it was like it was like sixteen people went

(54:33):
the same every week and we replaced like two or three.
And I was just like, so that's just like a guild, right,
But you're just calling it a like sixteen people showing
up every time and you're recruiting a few. It's definitely
different than like all rating guilds. That's much closer to
a guild than a PUG.

Speaker 1 (54:48):
I think I'm looking at their mother busy Kill and
their Galliwick's Kill and there's only like five of the
the same names.

Speaker 2 (55:00):
Like I think, take everything back, I think I think,
Uh well I didn't really I didn't. I just said
I that was that it would be less impressive. But
if they're if they're legit just fucking pugging.

Speaker 3 (55:08):
Wait, there's literally comment vets literally just max okay it is.
It says, how many players are you guys pugging each week?
If it's like ninety percent of players in the same
week and week, you're basically a guild, dude.

Speaker 2 (55:21):
I swear to god, I did not, Although I've had
this sentiment on my stream multiple times. So I yeah,
or I think it's also not uncommon to have that take.

Speaker 1 (55:30):
I think it's a good take, but I do I
actually think this is the rare case where it's not
that like, this is actually.

Speaker 2 (55:37):
Five people from the second to last boss to the
last boss is certainly within the realms of being called
a PUG, for sure. I think it might be that's crazy.
I just wonder I want to hear more about this.
I want to know if like they get the same
group for every boss and they kind of mostly keep
those people together, or if it's like every night they're
just like because I think that's the pug thing, right.
It's like, if you log on every single raid and

(55:59):
you're is, fifteen people are new, how the fuck can
you make any progression on Gallywick's is one thing, But
on a fight like Muggsy, that just sounds like that's
just never gonna work, especially if, like you know, the
jail people are changing like constantly. Healers, oh my god,
Like even just let's say you had four similarly skilled

(56:23):
healers show up to every single raid, which is probably
also not true for them. If you were doing this,
it's unlikely that that would be the case. Let's say
that's the case, wouldn't it still be so hard to Like,
you can be the same skill healer, but it might
take those healers an entire raid night to figure out
how to heal together and heal well. Right, Healing is
a group thing that it's about mixing and putting things

(56:44):
in the right spot, not just necessarily using all your
stuff on cool down. That would be a bad way
to heal. So, like, I think healing makes that really challenging.
You'd have to like rework that every night with different healers.
I mean, either way, I just want to I want
to hear more. I want to see like a documentary
about this, even though I'm sure there isn't one.

Speaker 1 (57:00):
Yeah, it's uh, like I would love to know how
you organize that. I agree. I think like if you're
at least keeping the same roster on a boss, it's easier.
But if you're if you're actually just coming in and
being like, okay, we're doing Galli progue today, here's a
new seventeen. People like, how do you actually have prague carryover?

(57:22):
But I think, you know, I guess it's like if
you have the raid leader, maybe a combination of like
you have a lot of gear this tear. Everybody has
the eighteen percent now gally, which kind of generationally low
organization requirement, right, Like you have to figure out the

(57:46):
overlap at the end of P one, and you have
to have you know, five bomb doers that know what
they're doing. But other than that, you can kind of
just not stand in the circles and kill the boss.
So maybe it's a combination of all of those things
that make it so that, like I guess my question is,
could you do this next tier or like in the
average tier, or is this is.

Speaker 2 (58:07):
The first time it's ever happened. Has this ever happened
before to our knowledge? I don't think so. I've never
seen a title someone pugged the m boss in any
tier like that just doesn't happen. Yeah, maybe, but like
so this is maybe the first time this has ever happened.
I would say your your instinct, I think is correct.
Where I bet this group's raid leader is a fucking

(58:29):
monstrous beast, because like, if there if there's anything that
keeps consistency from night to night with new people in
any numbers, is if the calls are very consistent and good,
especially on a boss that's like pretty mechanically easy like Galliwick's.
I think that is probably hard carrying and or would
be necessary for this to ever work, So I would

(58:52):
I would say that's pretty pretty likely.

Speaker 1 (58:56):
Yeah, very cool.

Speaker 2 (58:58):
Yeah, I'm glad. I'm glad you brought that up.

Speaker 1 (59:00):
All right, let's uh, let's maneuver on over to our
Patreon question this week, which comes from Mercutio, and it says, hello,
Potty C three. I was recently talking with a guild
member about how before Legion I was a demo Warlock Maine.
Since Wrath, ever since, I've only tanked and don't touch
the class due to it being completely ruined for me.

(59:21):
I hate Legion through current demo with my whole heart.
Have any of you ever experienced this where you had
a favorite class and overtime some updates just ruined it
for you?

Speaker 2 (59:29):
Dude?

Speaker 3 (59:29):
This is somehow relevant.

Speaker 1 (59:31):
Yeah, basically talk about yea and okay you guys. I
For me, it's like do I miss Ranged Survival Hunter?
Although new MM has moved a little bit in that
direction recently with the like lock and loads and stuff,
But yeah, I miss like free Legion Serve. But it's

(59:54):
not like I hate modern serve either. I just I'll
also miss the old one. I guess, like old assassination,
like pre what Shadowlands assassination or something. But it's not
like that different. It just felt better.

Speaker 3 (01:00:15):
I don't know, I'm sure like every person had has
this experience or m I.

Speaker 2 (01:00:24):
Have a pretty big one. It's not I mean I
have a few specs. It's like when everyone talks about
Feral with Runeve rerigination, but when Walker with Runeive rerigination
before they changed their mastery, and your mastery was how
strong your tiger I Brew was, and then you just
you like pooled all your shit into mastery pop Tiger
I Brew. At the very end of it got like

(01:00:46):
is it used to be like a baseline like sixty
percent damage increase with the mastery ruins shit, it would
go up to like two hundred percent. You'd pop it.
That would persist and then you get all of your
crit in haste back and you would just it was
fucking so broken. That's why they changed their mastery. That
was super fun. Obviously Farrell is a longtime Feral player,
and that was really fun. I would say tanking. I
still firmly believe that the most fun defensively tanking as

(01:01:11):
a whole has ever been was with Vengeance and MOP,
which often gets thrown in with the damage, and people
were just like, yeah, of course you liked tanking and
MOP because like you were topping meters and that's I mean,
that's certainly part of it. But if you're looking at
it purely from a livelord perspective, how much agency you
had over your survival, MOP is the best that that's

(01:01:33):
ever been. Honestly, it's not close. The even next expansion
tried to do this with a Resolve. They tried to
make it so, hey, let's do Vengeance without the attack
power increase, but purely base all their defensive healing and
absorbs off of how much damage they're taking. It's just
not attack power anymore.

Speaker 1 (01:01:51):
But it just did.

Speaker 2 (01:01:52):
It just wasn't the same, Like it just simply didn't
scale as well. It wasn't as op and maybe that
wasn't healthy for the game, but purely for that time time,
that was the most fun it was to play that
class because you just could not you could outplay any
other tank. If you were better than them, you would
either do more damage or be more unkillable. And they

(01:02:12):
all just like you're The gameplay of taking the initial
damage and finding a way to live and how powerful
you could get after that point was just the most
fun ever. And I don't think the game tanking has
ever felt like that sense.

Speaker 3 (01:02:26):
Yeah, I would say the same, like not Mob tanking,
because I didn't play Mob tanking. Kind of wish I
was playing Mob Classic.

Speaker 2 (01:02:32):
Kind of missing out, bro, if you're a tank and
you didn't play Mob when it was live, because like now,
like people are just so much better at the game anyway,
but like the skill difference in tanks back then was
just I mean, it was if you were a good player,
it just felt like you were playing like a new
game right when it comes out, like APEX or something,
and you're just shitting on the whole lobby every game.
That's just what tanking felt like if you were dude.

Speaker 3 (01:02:53):
I mean, then rewarding tanking in general is like something
that's missing from modern day tank. I just don't feel
like tanking is anywhere near as rewarding as it was
for quite a while now. And yeah, I mean there's
a lot of different versions of tanks that I've missed. Also,
like Legion Boomkin two. That one was a banger.

Speaker 2 (01:03:14):
Uh.

Speaker 3 (01:03:15):
I've played Elie Shaman a bit and Wad too, but
that was also a ton of fun. Yeah, there's a
bunch of classes I misro.

Speaker 2 (01:03:21):
Elie Shaman pretty much always has been I actually pretty
confidently say that Elie Shaman is the most well designed
fun class to play that has like very rarely been good.
You know, like if you just like change history and
some random niche ranged back, like let's just say moon
Can right, Like Moonkin is one that was like super
prompular for a long time. So a lot of people

(01:03:41):
have played it because it was good. There's a lot
of fottom rollers in this game. A lot of people
haven't actually played Elie because it's like basically never been
fottom uh. And I just think if you swapped those
two things, I think you would just have a ton
of Elie Shaman means right now. I just think it's
like one of the coolest designs they've ever had in
the game.

Speaker 3 (01:04:00):
You're muted, Yeah, you're hard muted, buddy, You're just talking
to yourself.

Speaker 1 (01:04:06):
I muted myself that I forgot that mute dude. I agree, though,
I think the there have been like three versions of
Ellie that have just been sick over the over the years, right, Like,
but man, what they've done with prim Wave recently, I
feel like that puts that s back in this list
for me of just like God, bring back, bring back
old Primordial Wave. The new one is just so not it.

Speaker 2 (01:04:26):
I mean, just the baseline gameplay of Ellie.

Speaker 1 (01:04:29):
Yeah, it's long as time has been.

Speaker 2 (01:04:31):
You're like doing this single target rotation. But man, if
you can throw this little flame shock on another target
and start getting some more Lava burst PROCs, that that gameplay,
just that basic gameplay is so smooth.

Speaker 3 (01:04:41):
Yeah, Lava Burst PROCs are so satisfying. I haven't played
Eli Shaman in expansions, so I have literally no idea
what it's like nowadays, but I assume it's not anywhere
near as heavy love love of bursts focus, right, I
haven't played in a.

Speaker 1 (01:04:57):
While, not as much as it used to be, although
not as little as it was like a year ago
or whatever. It depends. It also depends on if you're
playing Farsier or Stormbringer too. If you're playing Farsier, it's
more like Lava Bursity like you remember and Stormbringers more
not as Lava, Birsity or lightning e. Yeah.

Speaker 2 (01:05:21):
Yeah, I have a question for you guys at the
end of the little potty here, ok how you guys
feeling right now? You guys, how are you feeling as
a like a WOW player and a streamer. Are you
guys happy or you Like I could see this could
maybe even be kind of deep, like like, dorky, are
you doing this in like three or four years?

Speaker 3 (01:05:41):
I want to say yes.

Speaker 2 (01:05:44):
Good.

Speaker 3 (01:05:45):
I'm not a very plan ahead type of person. I'm
very much in the moments, but I want to say yes.

Speaker 2 (01:05:54):
I mean, as long as you're enjoying playing Wow, you'd
like to make content out of it and make money?
I mean that, Yeah, that makes sense. Okay.

Speaker 3 (01:06:02):
I want to say, like with Lesion Classic in the
near future, that's gonna be kind of hype. But aside
from that, like, I have no idea what to expect
in the near future.

Speaker 1 (01:06:13):
Dude, I don't even know if I'm gonna play the
Legion class like just none of the classics. I don't know.
Like you ask me if I liked this patch, Like, yeah,
I like this patch. Do I want to play it
for another month? No? Did I like seven? Point zero. Yeah,
the obviously had problems. I like some point one seven
point two. Yeah, would I want to play them for
another month even though it's been five years again?

Speaker 3 (01:06:34):
Is different?

Speaker 1 (01:06:35):
Yeah, I guess Yeah. For me, it's just like not
enough different. I don't know, it's it's like it's still
I still just can't really like like it's just not
new and I just want to play the new stuff.

Speaker 2 (01:06:46):
That's fair. But whenever I'm posed with the question of like,
am I gonna play this old expansion, I even when
I have nostalgia for and I loved playing the game then,
and I tell myself, yes, when that one comes out,
that specific one, I'm gonna do it. I've been proven
wrong like three times in a row now, and as
much as I loved it back then, I just look
at current retails just like a better version of that,

(01:07:08):
and the nostalgia doesn't win the gameplay.

Speaker 3 (01:07:11):
I'd say they just need the quality of life retail has.
Like if they can just bring all the quality of
life retail has into some of these classics, that would
be it for me because like so, like I I've
been following the mob Classic thing a little bit, I
haven't been playing myself. I mean, like I probably would
if it wasn't for a patch coming out literally in the.

Speaker 1 (01:07:29):
Yeah, but uh.

Speaker 3 (01:07:32):
Yeah, like just not having cross faction, not having like
cross realm, not having like all these things that retail
has added to the game, like ping too, Like why
is ping system not in the game, Like I feel
like all this stuff needs to be added to make
Classic actions and you know why right.

Speaker 2 (01:07:50):
Like I mean, okay, so I think the classic community
has come way back on the no changes thing. But
I think the no changes thing existing at any point
and how how strong of an opposition there were to
any changes. Blizzard is obviously very heasy, but I.

Speaker 3 (01:08:03):
Feels like it's only for Classic Classic. I don't feel
like that applies at all for the modern Classics.

Speaker 2 (01:08:09):
Maybe maybe they should do some surveys or something and
be like, hey, would you guys like this. I still
feel like maybe the average Classic player the reason why
they haven't done all of that. Also, maybe it's like
a framework thing, like maybe what makes the ping system
work now is because of something they added in a
later expansion that doesn't exist in Classic some coding shit, dude.

Speaker 1 (01:08:28):
I always remember the right after they did the auction
House update they like launched Classic or it was maybe
TVC or something, and the auction house like sucked and broke,
and I was just thinking, like, man, imagine being this
person who works at Bizzard and like just does one
of the people who just does all these great updates
to the game, and then everybody just like clamors to

(01:08:48):
go back to the old version of the game. And
so you relaunch the old version of the game that
has the thing you fixed, and then everybody's mad that
it's not fixed. In that versus of the kid, it's
just like, man, come on, okay, it's gotta be infury frustrated, yeah.

Speaker 2 (01:09:03):
Or or like being a developer and you're like, I
remember being actively involved in the decision we changed this,
and we added the group finder, and we did some
kind of quality of life change. I remember why we
did it, and we wish we would have done it
way before, and we tried to add it way before
and everyone got mad just because it wasn't the way
it was back then. That that kind of stuff has
to have keep kept them up at night.

Speaker 3 (01:09:22):
Yeah, I've been playing this other game. I haven't really
been playing while much, don't. It's called Terror Online. I'm
playing like a plastic private server, and I remember like the.

Speaker 1 (01:09:33):
Yeah, it's like the one with like like rolling around
and stuff. Is that is that that gamera?

Speaker 3 (01:09:39):
You have like active block and active block, active dodging,
eye framing and all of that stuff in an mmo,
And it's actually like so fucking fun, Like it's probably
the most fun tanking in any animal I've ever played.
But uh, yeah, so I've been playing that and I'm
just thinking, like, man, this game plays so well, but
there's also so many dogshit parts of the game that
I completely forgot about. And if they could just like

(01:10:01):
remove all the dog shouped parts, that's kind of like
how I see with Mob Classic, right, like just just
fucking just give us all the quality of life stuff
and just like not have all this cumbersome no cross faction,
no ping system, et cetera. And I feel like the
game would just be amazing to play.

Speaker 2 (01:10:17):
Just take out all the bad parts and make the
good parts better.

Speaker 1 (01:10:19):
Yeah.

Speaker 3 (01:10:20):
Well, the thing that they candle right, because like they
have all that retrospection and just years of development, right like,
so surely Blizzard could do something about the new Classics thing.

Speaker 2 (01:10:33):
Okay, well this is coming from the perspective of like
a retail player going back and playing Classic. Here's here's
my question to you, and maybe this will I'll gain
some insight here, But what do you think the reception is?
What do you think the Wowhead comment section looks like
on upcoming new Classic expansion and the title is Blizzard
adding retail ping system to this Classic expansion. What do

(01:10:55):
you think the responses to that?

Speaker 3 (01:10:58):
I want to say it can only be positive, but
you know, knowing those creatures, it's.

Speaker 2 (01:11:04):
The wild Head creatures.

Speaker 3 (01:11:06):
Yeah, but I mean it could like what could possibly
be negative about the pink system, right, Like I can
see if they decide to make decisions that were like
very divisive, but this is kind of just a resounding
w right.

Speaker 1 (01:11:18):
Yeah, I think I do think the Pink system would
be a fairly high approval rate thing. But I do
think there'd be a set of people that would complain
about any changes for sure.

Speaker 2 (01:11:26):
But yeah, and I think those people are why you
don't see more of that.

Speaker 1 (01:11:29):
Yeah, Welsto, the.

Speaker 3 (01:11:30):
Thing is class these classics already do that. They already
made a lot of changes. Like I think from like
raph litching onwards, they it's not actually Classic, like I heard.
I don't know what exactly if they've added, but stuff
like Heroic plus, Yeah, I.

Speaker 1 (01:11:44):
Mean the new changing the dungeons with the like Titan
ruined dungeons started in Wrath, and even just like deciding
what patch to play the balance on. They've they've been
like tweaking it in Mop and they didn't just run
you know, five point four for everybody or five point
two for everybody or anything. They've done like some mix
and matching. So yeah, it's definitely it's not like it's

(01:12:07):
not full no changes like it was before, but like
implementing and picking and choosing different retail features to put
in Classic, I don't think you can get any of
them above like sixty percent approval rate to put into Classic,
even if individually the amounts of people who would agree
we should take the good parts from retail and put
them into Classic is higher than that. I think any

(01:12:29):
any individual thing that you suggested to add, there'd be
a lot of people that be like, no, no, no,
not that one that's not the one I met.

Speaker 3 (01:12:37):
Yeah, maybe it's hard to say.

Speaker 1 (01:12:39):
But yeah, I'd love to see them try, though, I think,
you know, yeah, but also I'm not a classic player,
So I feel bad about like saying what i'd like
to see in classic because I'm not gonna play it anyways,
who cares.

Speaker 2 (01:12:51):
I have kind of take about wowhead because like wowhead
comments are pretty bad for most things. It seems like
the overall wowhead comment or as like a group of
people is not not a they're not happy you know
maybe uh wait, can you hear me right now? The
uh yeah? For some reason, Dranus's video like isn't catching it.

Speaker 1 (01:13:09):
Oh, that's fine, it's probably it's recorded on your end's recording.
It's recording on this I just wanted to make.

Speaker 2 (01:13:13):
Sure I wasn't like like lagging out. Did you guys
see the uh the like? Actually read the responses to
the uh scars are leaving post a few?

Speaker 1 (01:13:26):
Like when I first went up, I read a couple,
but I didn't read too many.

Speaker 2 (01:13:29):
Yeah, I'm gonna read it now again if I can,
just to double check before my take here. But I
remember it being pretty negative when I looked at it, like, uh,
this guy, I'm just trying to see if there's any

(01:13:50):
like this guy sucks angle because I remember I didn't
know if that was going to happen this time. But
I remember remember when Jeff Hamilton quit. Do you guys
remember the response to that?

Speaker 1 (01:14:02):
Yeah, that one was. The comments on that one were like,
we're we talking about it? Extremely toxic?

Speaker 2 (01:14:07):
Yeah yeah, And I we assumed that Scarzard would get
a more uh like a more positive reaction because he
had like more better pr within at least the high
end community. But I don't think the high end community
is necessarily on wowhead for him, so uh oh, definitely. Okay,

(01:14:29):
I remember reading some pretty uh shitty stuff, but I
think they may have they may have removed some of them,
which is really good.

Speaker 3 (01:14:37):
The hell censorship.

Speaker 2 (01:14:39):
I think that's good though. Yeah, that's actually what I
was gonna bring up because I remember from the Jeff
Hamilton thing. Okay, your wildhead, your job is to report
the news. So a Blizzard developer leaving his news, you're
gonna report the news. But if but if that ends
up meaning that it's like an avenue for the worst
people you know to go in the comment section and
say just absolutely terrible things that you know of affected

(01:15:00):
that person, Like I mean, even scars Aard mentioned like
how he hated so much, how like that was the
reaction that happened from that, Like, if your wowhead and
you're reporting the news and you see that that's the outcome,
I think you have to moderate your comment section better
because I think there's probably probably a universally acceptable opinion
that like that isn't okay, right, Like you're there to
report the news, but like your site turning into a

(01:15:21):
place for people to just like shit on this person
they don't know at all or have no idea really
what they worked on other than some like random wowhead
anecdotes which at least for him were like partially inaccurate.
I feel like you have to curate that to where
your website doesn't become a place to just hate people.
But it looks like they did that with scars Ards

(01:15:42):
because I remember reading more comments and I remember them being.

Speaker 1 (01:15:44):
Like, yeah, there's somebody in here has a comment that
said that's talking about how deleting their comment was a
bit much. So definitely there's been some there's been some
censorship on my on my free speech forum here. I
can't believe me they should.

Speaker 2 (01:15:57):
They should, I mean, I absolutely believe they should. Just
there's no way you should want like, did I be
so embarrassed if I owned that and I was like
reporting the news, which is my job, and then like
the people that are using my website or just using
it to spew hate about something they know nothing about,
I would just want to remove that part of that
for sure.

Speaker 3 (01:16:14):
I don't think there should be comments in general for
Wildhead News. Like I think it's fine to have comments
for like you a specific item descriptions and whatever. Maybe
you know how people like look up quests and there's
usually comments we dig into. But I feel like there
are reserved no purpose having comments in a wowhead article.

Speaker 1 (01:16:33):
I think.

Speaker 2 (01:16:34):
I don't know if I agree with that.

Speaker 3 (01:16:36):
I feel like we should discuss it in like elsewhere
like reddit or whatever.

Speaker 2 (01:16:39):
Maybe well why not have it? I mean, for one,
the reason they have it there is it like probably
builds engagement and makes them sell more ads and stuff,
so there's hundred percent why it exists. It's just like
I think maybe that take is because you know what
wowhead comments look like to work.

Speaker 3 (01:16:55):
Well, No, but I also feel like Wildhead comments or
Wildhead news should be as on buy as possible, and
it often is biased in some way because you know how,
like they usually clickbait titles with like saying shit like
all Boomkin is dead or whatever like stuff like that, right, Yeah,
but we.

Speaker 2 (01:17:10):
All do that on YouTube too.

Speaker 3 (01:17:12):
That's just like yeah, but I don't feel like that's well,
I think that's different between YouTube and news articles, right.
I feel like news articles.

Speaker 2 (01:17:18):
Holding it should be held to a higher standard.

Speaker 3 (01:17:20):
Yeah, exactly, And that's not quite the same as just
making content or discussing it about it on Reddit or Wow.

Speaker 2 (01:17:27):
Interesting money, whise it's the same thing. So I could
see their argument being because like, ye, the more people
who click on your thing, the more as you sell,
the more profitable your website is. And if you don't
do that, then maybe you've go out of business and
there is no wowhead, So there has to be I
could totally understand the perspective of them where it's like
they do that a little bit because they need to
drive viewership. As most newspapers and all kinds of forms

(01:17:48):
of like written literature anywhere like that, that has to exist.

Speaker 1 (01:17:51):
Yeah.

Speaker 3 (01:17:51):
I mean, I personally just never trust news just because
of how there's always some type of bias and it
needs authenticity, and I think that's like by far the
most important things.

Speaker 1 (01:18:01):
So yeah, I just get chatchypt to summer as it
for me exactly.

Speaker 2 (01:18:05):
Yeah, yeah, I would agree with you based on purely
what wowhead comments have become. Like, Like initially, I think
a place where news is happening and seeing people's initial
reaction to that news could be really interesting to me
to see how people are feeling as it differs from me.
I just think that specifically Wowhead Wowhead in general has
just somehow curated just on average, just the worst person,

(01:18:26):
you know is the comment or is the average comment
or on that website, because it's just purely just not
happy in their life, miserable, like just spewing hate as
soon as they read something extremely negative like that. That
just overwhelmingly those people love being there, right, I mean
that's what it turned out to be. Positive.

Speaker 3 (01:18:46):
I can't necessarily trust it, Like even if all the
wild comments were positive, like say it was the monk
changes for example, right, like the mistic touch changes, and
all the monks were like, Wow, this is amazing, this
is great, except it's not actually good, like it's not
good for the games though. I feel like it can
be hard to.

Speaker 2 (01:18:59):
Just well, yeah, but the comment section isn't a reflection
of Wowhead necessarily it definitely.

Speaker 3 (01:19:03):
Isn't, but it definitely has like some level of uh,
what's the word. Yeah, it creates a certain narrative.

Speaker 2 (01:19:17):
Maybe, Yeah, I just think like like what like, for example,
that really good video that guy made about why Mystic
Touch was bad and then they ended up reverting it,
Like that could have been put in the comment section
or separately put on YouTube that is like wowhead is
like almost no control over that, and you can get
that information across a rather than the wow forms. Or
I think the fact they have a comment section is
like totally fine.

Speaker 1 (01:19:36):
Yeah, I think that's just like if there are posts
about like, they should do what they've done here, which
is either heavily moderate the comment section or turn it
off entirely on posts where it's like divisive or about
about like if it's about like.

Speaker 3 (01:19:51):
That creates a message, So like I don't I also
don't like that if you like, if you're only disabling
it for certain like you don't know what I mean,
Like if you watching a certain YouTube video and come
to the you know, why are disabled?

Speaker 1 (01:20:02):
Yeah, but that's still better than like that's still good
dunk on Most of the time, that's a good decision. Yeah.

Speaker 2 (01:20:08):
I think like, like, if you know your comment section
is only going to be just the worst of the
worst people, why would you even create that forum.

Speaker 3 (01:20:15):
But that that's why I feel like it should just
always be disabled.

Speaker 1 (01:20:17):
Yeah, but like there's not there's not any danger of like,
oh man, the monk tuning post is out, like people
are gonna be typing, you know about how you know
a real person sucks in the comments here. I mean,
I guess there will be some people that typing those
things in the comment section, but like it's a lot
less bad than I think if you have a you know,
a post about a blizzard leaving or something like that. Like,

(01:20:38):
I think there's just much danger there.

Speaker 2 (01:20:40):
His take of like there just shouldn't be comment sections,
whether you could remove them from everywhere, like there's no
commentary anywhere. It's purely Actually, as streamers, we should do that.
There should be no written comments. All there can be
is streaming reactions. That's the only thing that's okay. Then
then I could I'm fucking on board with that, but
I've I feel like, uh yeah, I kind of get

(01:21:03):
what you're saying. I just feel like then it's like
who has the power who has the like obviously if
you were, if you are them, if you put yourselves
in their shoes, They're like, why should they let the
ad money go to the to the Twitter think pieces
on this and the YouTube ones when we could just
have them on our site and become more profitable, Like
they're never going to not do that.

Speaker 3 (01:21:24):
Yeah, I mean, I think Phil was still a gad
that revenue was just like there might be less engagement.
But at the same time, if Wildhead had a.

Speaker 2 (01:21:33):
A better.

Speaker 3 (01:21:38):
Actually I don't even know, because I mean, to be fair,
everyone does go on Wildhead regardless. It's kind of like
the goal to site, right.

Speaker 2 (01:21:43):
Yeah, they've they've they've successful everyone out. Yeah yeah, they
they killed MMO Champion, which used to have like competition
for them. They've become the place. If they were less divisive,
people would still click on it. But also, like, I
don't know, if you're in charge of making money and
no one besides three random podcasters are are like calling

(01:22:05):
you out for it, and you can get away with it,
and you can make a ton more money by people
clicking on your stuff, You're probably gonna do that, And
we're not random.

Speaker 1 (01:22:11):
Our brave official position is only we should be allowed
to do clickbait and comment farming and engagement banning.

Speaker 2 (01:22:17):
Yeah, I mean that is correct.

Speaker 1 (01:22:18):
Everybody else doing it is unethical.

Speaker 2 (01:22:21):
I do. I fucking feel you on the news becoming
biased and death much more recently just in general in
the world, I'd find that very frustrating.

Speaker 3 (01:22:31):
Yeah, like it's hard to actually get concrete information always. Yeah,
but yeah, I was gonna say the scars are thing too.
I mean, like, to be fair, even our YouTube comments
had people talking about like him leaving in a negative light,
So I don't think it's like just Wildhead. I think
large part is I would didn't like the state of
how Wow was at the time, whether it's like trinkets

(01:22:54):
or whatever, and they just like blame it on scars Are.

Speaker 2 (01:22:58):
I want to just also Claire by anything, I would
say Wowhead should do. We would also like if there's
any comments in our comments section that are purely not
constructive and are just hateful, should absolutely be removed every
single time. Yeah, no matter what they're about or who
they're about.

Speaker 1 (01:23:13):
Yeah, especially if they're about you know, a person instead
of a game thing or something.

Speaker 2 (01:23:18):
Yeah. Absolutely, Yeah. I mean you're also saying it's constructive.
Someone's saying like the game is bad. Yeah, Like that's
that's that is? Uh. I mean there can be obviously
more nuanced criticism than that, but that that is like
you can have that.

Speaker 1 (01:23:31):
Yeah, although when you're I'm not sure how coherent that
take it. Like I saw some of the takes that
were like basically when we're in our on our last podcast,
I read a couple of comments and there are people
that were like, yeah, I mean, just if the game
sucks for so many years, right, Like, there can't like
some of the people working on it have to be
kind of bad. But like you're writing a comment on
a YouTube video that's a podcast about this video game, Like,

(01:23:54):
clearly it can't be that bad of a game for
you to be consuming podcasts about it, right, Like it's
I don't know, I feel like the take that like, wow,
is a bad game is kind of a crazy take
to have if you are this like invested in it
at your.

Speaker 2 (01:24:11):
It's it's like the meme Steam review, right yeah, like
a ten thousand hours someone playing ten thousand hours and
they're like this game is terrible.

Speaker 3 (01:24:18):
I mean I think it's definitely more nuanced than that,
because like they are things to complain about, right, It's
not like we live in a perfect game, because like,
obviously if we're passionate about the game, there are certain
things we just don't like. In fact, I was gonna
talk about the dungeons this season, like, goddamn some of
the changes they've made to I like how relevance is,
but like, holy fuck, they've made some terrible changes to

(01:24:39):
some of these dungeons. I don't know if you guys
have seen, but they made Gambit and Halls of Atonement
to absolutely beloved Shadowlands dungeons into complete dogshit. It's it's
honestly kind of sad.

Speaker 2 (01:24:51):
Yeah.

Speaker 1 (01:24:52):
I saw the change to the fish sticks.

Speaker 3 (01:24:54):
Yeah, that was a very hot topic.

Speaker 1 (01:24:56):
Yeah. Really just uh, you can't like stop them anymore.
They just spawn.

Speaker 2 (01:25:01):
You have to kill them, yeah, Like like why, Yeah,
we don't want you guys to mass.

Speaker 1 (01:25:06):
Pull Yeah, and you know, we want we want we
want you to interact with these in the way like
we don't. Basically, like, there's a way of playing M
plus that has sort of been the dominant strategy over
the past years, which is an extreme amount of control
of the pack and like stopping them from doing their
important ability rather than dealing with their important abilities, and

(01:25:28):
Blizzard clearly doesn't like that, but also like every time
they try and change it to force us to deal
with stuff, we don't like it.

Speaker 2 (01:25:35):
So yeah, yeah, there's a never ending power struggle.

Speaker 3 (01:25:39):
Yeah yeah, and also a tollment too. It's insane. They
made the packs have like four different magic de buffs
that you have to dispel going out at once. There's
like a new dot vegals on the tank that makes
them take increased damage that has to be dispelled. There's
the curse Curse of Annihilation, which is what you would

(01:26:00):
think is a curse, so it should be decursed, except
they made into a magic dispel, so you have to
magic dispel that too. And then there's also a siphon
life from the Collectors, so there's like three different things
you have to dispel, like something that happens so fast
that you can't actually dispel more than one at a time.

Speaker 2 (01:26:19):
That's kind of fascinating to me, the concept of bringing
back a fan favorite dungeon and then for any reason
nerfing the part of it that made people like it.
It's like, why not just bring back a dungeon people
didn't really like and try to make their thing positive,
but like people kind of know what they're gonna get.
Oh am, I gonna play Methic plus this season, wait free,

(01:26:39):
holding underwater in the season, fucking log in like I'm
gonna play this season because of that. And then you
log in and your expectations are shut down because they
made the thing you remember being great as bad. That's
just like such an interesting decision, Like maybe maybe the
reality there is they don't actually know what makes those
things fun, or maybe there's the reality of they do know,

(01:26:59):
and it's most dungeons that are really fun have a
common I mean, the Gambit and Halls of a Toneman
are like two of the biggest mass pulled dungeons of
all time. So it's like it turns out mass pulling
stuff is really fun and that's what you want to do.
And then but then they have a general just aversion
to wanting to let you do that in the first place.
So there's always going to be that internal battles. They're

(01:27:20):
bringing back fan favorite dungeons, but then they actually don't
fundamentally like the thing that makes fan favorite dungeons fan favorites. Yeah,
I'm not sure what it is. Exactly.

Speaker 3 (01:27:31):
I don't know if it's just like they feel the
dungeons outdated or maybe if they have like a certain vision.

Speaker 1 (01:27:38):
Yeah, it's like even if a dungeon was popular and
enjoyed by players, they just they they want to make
make it the like modern version, right, like fit the
modern design philosophy and stuff. They don't want to just
like it's like how you can't just revert to Legion
DH or whatever. You can't just go back and do
BFA freehold.

Speaker 2 (01:27:58):
Although well, isn't there a recent designed philosophy in line
with what people want? Like, wasn't the changes they made
last season were like there's a lot less shit going on,
and like tanks aren't getting murdered every single pack, Like
why would Yeah I went back on that. Actually I
was about to say, like that, where what happened to that?

Speaker 1 (01:28:16):
Right?

Speaker 3 (01:28:17):
Are they?

Speaker 2 (01:28:17):
I don't know?

Speaker 3 (01:28:19):
Oh yeah, if I got the Wicked bolts are just
randomly builting players now too, So yeah, you also have
to deal with that.

Speaker 1 (01:28:26):
Yeah that's fun. I I uh, I did my first
plus twenty of the season yesterday, so I'm I'm mother load.

Speaker 2 (01:28:35):
Oh that's a classic.

Speaker 1 (01:28:36):
Yeah, the grease guns zapping people in the on the
first fall. That's fun.

Speaker 3 (01:28:42):
But yeah, so you're out here doing some pretty high
key so she actually played on them season.

Speaker 1 (01:28:45):
Yeah, I'm going for a quick, quick, cheeky eight key
title adventure. You see that works out?

Speaker 2 (01:28:51):
Yeah?

Speaker 3 (01:28:51):
Yeah, one of those people who actually just steals title
from legitimate players that were up.

Speaker 1 (01:28:56):
That's right, that's the look bad. The Invader's keys. You
got to use them. Somebody's got to use them's wealdd
oh man, not my resilius, of course, my guilties. That's yeah. Yeah,
well it works.

Speaker 2 (01:29:14):
All right. I think all right, I think we're good.

Speaker 1 (01:29:16):
Yeah.

Speaker 2 (01:29:16):
Nice.

Speaker 1 (01:29:16):
Well, we'll see you guys next week when we talk
about something about the new patch, probably because I guess
I guess when we record next week, we'll be right
before or a day of new patch or something, or
a couple of days before. Yeah, we'll see talk about
that or something. Let us know in the comments what
you're excited for at midnight, and don't forget to smash
that like and some button later.

Speaker 2 (01:29:37):
Gamers as patios