Episode Transcript
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Speaker 1 (00:02):
From wherever you are around the world, around the world.
Welcome to the Circle of Insight, a show that explores
the many facets of human behavior and the wonders of
the human mind. And now here's your host, doctor Carlos.
Speaker 2 (00:30):
Welcome back, folks. Today we have a great guest, doctor
Feggi Ostrovsky. It's fegg Y Ostrowsky is O S t r.
O sk Y. She's a professor of neuropsychology in the
head of the Laboratory of Neuropsychology and Psychophysiology at the
National Autonomous University of Mexico. She has published twenty five books,
(00:52):
six neuropsychological tests, and over two three and forty journal
articles and chapters and more to come. So today we're
going to be talking a lot about neuropsychology and criminal
behavior and all sorts of fashions. We'll be talking about
organized crime, we'll be talking about psychopaths. So you don't
want to miss this conversation. I think you're going to
enjoy it. Before we get started, to make sure to share, subscribe,
(01:12):
hit that like button. You know we'll like it. It's
not wasting no more time. Over to the show, doctor Ostrosky, Welcome.
Speaker 3 (01:18):
Thank you so much.
Speaker 2 (01:19):
Nice, thank you very much for being here. I mean,
I enjoyed the conversation just before the show. It was
a lot of fun. Now, I read your book on
Neuropsychology and Criminal Behavior, a great read, folks. You can
pick it up on Amazon dot com. And this is
something that fascinates That's why we have the podcast. That
fascinates a lot of people. They always want to know
what's going on. And I haven't seen too many books
(01:43):
in regards to neuropsychology and criminal behavior. I think the
last one, I can't remember how many years ago, is
three or four years ago. I think Adrian Rain he
had one big one for a while, fantastic. Yeah, I'm
not sure how long ago that was. I think he's
been growing another one. But either way, doctor Ostrotski, I
want to skip through a lot of the stuff and
(02:04):
go straight to more of the meat, as they call it,
because people want to know. But I enjoyed the conversation
we were having a minute ago about organized crime and
the mind. So Babe, tell us a little bit about
what you found. And I liked how you also accentuated
the fact that organized crime, they are very different types
of criminals involved in an organized crime, so tell us
(02:26):
a little bit about that.
Speaker 4 (02:27):
Well, yes, you know, I started this chance a little bit,
not a right chance, because I work in neuro psychology
and science. So in nineteen ninety four, the government just
called to my lab and said, do you know about
was a profile of a senior key.
Speaker 3 (02:46):
Here or somebody who kill a president?
Speaker 4 (02:48):
So I said, okay, you know, so I just went
to interview because they want to interview Maria Unto. He
was a guy who Quiaki, one of the presidents. He
was a candidate to the presidency.
Speaker 2 (03:04):
Of Mexico for Losio.
Speaker 4 (03:07):
That was my starting in nineteen ninety four, and they
called me in and I said, he said, yes, we
want to see if people make some nescyde testing. They
didn't know what no psych testing was, but they said
somebody told I said, you can do that because they
want to know if he acts by himself but he
(03:28):
was manipulated.
Speaker 3 (03:30):
What somebody, so nero psychology can.
Speaker 4 (03:33):
Tell you can tell you, he said, able to plan,
organize and sequence of crime, or he's just like a puppet.
Speaker 3 (03:42):
It's not that we are magicians, but we can do that.
Speaker 4 (03:45):
So that was my first I went there. I said, okay, go,
I felt like to the poster in the silence of
the lamp, you know, okay, So that was my first experience.
And then, you know, I interviewed him, but he didn't
want to work with me a lot. So meanwhile I
(04:06):
was saying, can you bring other criminals because I'm.
Speaker 3 (04:09):
Cure at his high security jail. So I interview a
lot of people like the guy who.
Speaker 4 (04:15):
Just to kidnap people who cut the ear, the ear
of his big teams and send the years.
Speaker 3 (04:24):
Said send me all the money. So that's how it start.
Speaker 2 (04:29):
You cut the years and sent it for ransom.
Speaker 4 (04:32):
It's for ransom, and I said, no, it was terrible.
His named he said, it's the cutting of the ears.
And he was very mail like he's still in jail,
and well to make the long starting short. So this
was my first In nineteen ninety four, I published some
(04:54):
papers regarding to what's the profile of somebody who is
like this kidnapper was able to cut the ears and
build a round some to somebody who's just not so
so so dangerous. But then they called me again and
they said, could you come in tell me about selial killers.
(05:17):
The head of the government Mexico Alexandri and Sema, and.
Speaker 3 (05:24):
I said, okay, so they had a serial killer who.
Speaker 4 (05:28):
Was killing old ladies. He said, can you come and
tell me about that?
Speaker 3 (05:34):
So okay, I'll go again. So I go there and
they had this case of.
Speaker 4 (05:40):
They were old ladies who were being killed, so they
didn't know what to look for, and they said could
you help us, which I think it was pretty advanced
that they called our professor at the university to do that.
Speaker 3 (05:53):
So I was involved.
Speaker 4 (05:55):
And then suddenly they didn't know it was a woman
or a guy, of you was a transsexual because a
big guy, and it was choking the old ladies and
there was no signs of that that the person will
get into the house, people will open the door or
(06:15):
she or he, so well, i'll to make the short story.
Speaker 3 (06:20):
Suddenly they caught that.
Speaker 4 (06:22):
They caught her and it was one of a bass
which are in writing the book about here. She was
accused of killing eighteen old ladies an attempt to kill
two others and she has like seven hundred and forty
six years in jail because in Mexico we didn't have
(06:43):
that penalty. So I went to see her and I
started her profile, which was really interesting because you know,
the Syria killer just kills something about them. It's just
not that one day she will be saying, what I'm
going to do there today, I'm gonna go and kill
old ladies, just like an avun fantasy in your mind.
Speaker 3 (07:07):
Because we have some experiences, and in this case.
Speaker 4 (07:11):
She was she lived with a woman who hate her
because the moment she was born, the father just took away.
So this woman could have a munication. The mother of
Juana came to Mexico. She was from Pachuca, came to
Mexico and then she just got involved with another guy
(07:33):
and then she hated When I was very you know
from Mexicans, it's like one ninety one eighty five.
Speaker 3 (07:42):
Maybe ters she was really old. So that's why.
Speaker 2 (07:46):
People high over sixteen, right.
Speaker 4 (07:51):
So that's so that's why they thought that it was
a guy and he had joined her, so they were
like transsectionals or something.
Speaker 3 (08:00):
But anyhow, so they taught her and she was in this.
Speaker 4 (08:07):
Environment where they don't like her. Her mother just create
her because she represents the father left her. So she
started to hate this woman. She she never was sent
to school because in Mexico, among the very low and
people women had to just make the kia, I think
the home.
Speaker 3 (08:27):
She would go to school, go to school, I'm going
to make tortillas.
Speaker 4 (08:32):
So she didn't have any other figure to protect her,
like a sto, like a teacher or somebody around. So
she started at thirteen years old. When she was three
years old, the mother went to have some alcohol.
Speaker 3 (08:50):
She was alcoholic with some.
Speaker 4 (08:52):
Guys, and she said, why don't I treat my daughter
for you for three services?
Speaker 3 (08:58):
Three and she said they said okay. So she left the.
Speaker 4 (09:03):
Girl and they break her and she had a son
one year after and they they just uh, they tied
her with ropes. That's very important because she used to
kill the old ladies with a rope, right, so uh,
(09:29):
you know, the story is terrible, but she she she
started to do that, and so it's.
Speaker 3 (09:39):
Like a story of sup here that just happened spontaneously.
You know, even if you.
Speaker 4 (09:44):
Talk about Ted Bondie that everyone else, she was like
sort of like that Ted Bonnie, but there was something
in her history. She has abnormal fantasies about just getting
rid of the mother who so she used to kill
old ladies because it represents her mother. But then she
has a double life. You know, she will take Mariachi's
(10:08):
you know, like the scene to my neighbor who was
an old lady and she called her mamita.
Speaker 3 (10:18):
So she hate old ladies. But then she has this.
Speaker 4 (10:24):
I know, and she was like a professional wrestler and
she Lazama.
Speaker 3 (10:32):
Then she lends you the science lady and she has.
Speaker 4 (10:37):
Her uniform and I have photos of her and uh
so she used to have all these oppressions working in
her wrestling and suddenly she just stopped doing your wrestling
because she was forty three years old. And that's when
she started to kill because that's abnormal. You start to
feel so yeah, right, And she was smart. She didn't
(11:02):
went to school. She know, didn't know how to write
her name or anything. But she just convinced so ladies
to let her team into the house and said, can
I help you with a cleaning bag? So they opened
the door for her. And if they mistreat her, then
she will chop them. She was not an organance crumb.
(11:26):
She will take some chords that she found there some nyelon.
Speaker 3 (11:33):
That's so yes.
Speaker 2 (11:37):
Let me ask you this, doctor Ostrowski, did you do
a PCL on her? Did you do the psychopathy checklist
on her.
Speaker 4 (11:42):
Oh of course, yeah, she has high levels on psychopathy.
Speaker 3 (11:47):
But usually what.
Speaker 4 (11:48):
I found is they have the most affected and emotional
scoring very high.
Speaker 3 (11:56):
It's not that they have a very antisocial store.
Speaker 4 (12:00):
Before I was telling you that I've seen a case
that it's really erasing that I cannot really talk about it, and.
Speaker 2 (12:08):
Uh, it happens.
Speaker 4 (12:12):
Because it's it's gonna be an ethnic series. But it's
just like he doesn't have any story of breaking the law,
but eight people, so he's a cannon ball. And that's
so I could interview him and I can have a
(12:34):
copy with him and not suspecting.
Speaker 3 (12:37):
I respect that he's affective.
Speaker 4 (12:40):
An emotional part is what's important, and I think that
take you know something.
Speaker 3 (12:44):
That I'm doing now. I'm just jumping into subjects, but it's.
Speaker 4 (12:49):
Connected because the question is the psychopath did you prevent it?
Speaker 3 (12:55):
Who are these people?
Speaker 4 (12:57):
And currently we know there's primary psychopathy where you have
these guys who have not many of the politicians that
we have for perfect life, no, and could use the
other people for their own purpose and you don't finance
history of views just like people who are manipulating other people.
Speaker 3 (13:20):
So there are two types of psychopricts.
Speaker 4 (13:23):
Those people who are like you don't find any history
of views or anything, but just just meet people and
well you can find some stories. But you know, like
many politicians and many people who work in finance who
steal the money. I'm not saying that everybody, my kids
(13:44):
work in finance and there, but it's just like that,
you take the money of poor people and you you
use it for your own purpose.
Speaker 2 (13:54):
But hey, what do you think are they scoring like
an eighteen or twenty for some of those the ones
who are working in finance instance that there are some
and are they scoring the lower numbers or no?
Speaker 4 (14:03):
That's like the successful psychopaths. You know, it's because they're
successful because they're going to jail, not because they're not
psychopaths and they are out and.
Speaker 3 (14:14):
There, Well we can talk.
Speaker 4 (14:17):
I don't want to get in politics because I think
it's a dangerous thing to get. But you know many
candidate and presidents that he will they will use the
people for their own purpose and that's that's that's successful psychobats,
and they will scored high in the psychopathy checklist of
(14:40):
hair with you know Robert Hare, it's like a fantastic
guy who started to systemize the analysis of psychobats. And well,
so that's the primary psychopaths, where they're cool, they don't
have high anxiety.
Speaker 3 (14:58):
Levels and they do all these terrible stuff.
Speaker 4 (15:01):
But there's the secondary psychobats, and the secondary psychobats. Phenotypically
they're the same. They look exactly the same, but the
cause of the psychopathy is different. Some looking and usually
if they have a history of abuse, like one Blaassa,
(15:22):
they have a history of abuse, they have high anxiety levels,
and it's a sole profile, but it's different, and the
difference is that you can try to treat them and
prevent them from happening.
Speaker 2 (15:38):
Doctor Ostrotski, did you see anything, because I've seen when
I stayed a lot of the serial killers they seem
to have neurological impairments, either from TBI, traumatic brain injuries
or prenatal exposure to environmental toxins anything. Did you see
any of that during your research? Right?
Speaker 3 (15:55):
You cannot, you know, it's like you cannot. In order
for need to study, I've been study more than three
hundred and forty criminal offenders.
Speaker 4 (16:04):
In high security jails and in uh in normal jails,
regular jails, and for me to study you can't. You
can have primary psycho but primary antisocial behavior or secretary.
And when we talk secondary, it's like you have like
brain tama, you have antis you have borderline personality, or
(16:28):
you have all the types that can explain your behave
like su very, depression calls a lot of wility and
aggression towards your partner.
Speaker 3 (16:39):
So in order or draw jougs abuse and cast But in.
Speaker 4 (16:44):
Order for me to study, I have to just check
that they don't have that as a primary factor.
Speaker 3 (16:51):
So I study.
Speaker 4 (16:53):
You know there are secondary because they secondary antisocial personality,
because you can treat that like cost like they have
epilepsy or the temporal love or whatever, and that's a
different treatment. So I worked with the really the primary
psychobats or the primary and social and that's why we're
(17:17):
talking about it.
Speaker 3 (17:18):
What's happening in the brain? What happened?
Speaker 2 (17:22):
Yeah, fascinating. Now that woman you mentioned earlier who was
strangling the elderly women were would you be able to
have coffee with her and not notice the difference or
would you notice it?
Speaker 3 (17:31):
Well, she has.
Speaker 4 (17:32):
A very special look. It was like when you see
the sights of the lump and then the co pa
insist and I don't want to bring movies into that
yet this like look just like she was like looking
at you and trust fascining you.
Speaker 3 (17:50):
And when she was talking about things, it was like
she was telling me about about the weather. You know,
there was no emotion on it. So the eye side,
you know, they said that I is a measure of
your heart or.
Speaker 4 (18:11):
Right.
Speaker 3 (18:12):
But the last guy that i'd seen, he didn't have.
The thing is that.
Speaker 4 (18:21):
I have another one who was also like he was
a poet. He will bring points to women's in cafes,
and he was good looking, and he will give you
like a white flower and just talk to you and
said could you write my point for like one dollar
(18:41):
orles and that and everybody and I couldn't have coffee
with him. And then they found him eating one of
her lovers.
Speaker 3 (18:55):
He was.
Speaker 2 (18:58):
So Yes, it sounds like some of the ones you've
interviewed already and talked to you seem to somehow compartmentalize
the different parts of their life, the killing part of it,
and just interacting with individuals in their life in a
normal fashion.
Speaker 3 (19:15):
Right.
Speaker 4 (19:15):
That's the fascinating fire about it, right start, Because you know,
when I interviewed Juan Alvadasa. She said, why are you here?
And then she confessed treatments, but you know, she really
and she said, I said the last one. I said,
is it bad? He said, yeah, it's not good. Why
(19:37):
is it bad?
Speaker 3 (19:38):
Because it's not good to take the life of anybody.
Speaker 4 (19:42):
You know. She has perfect the normal part, where's good
and where's that? But the effective connection is not there.
So maybe somebody just caught you out and you are
almost dying in your car because they did that, and
you want to.
Speaker 3 (19:58):
Kill that person.
Speaker 4 (20:00):
There are some uh readers, emotional univers that said, I'm
not going to kill them, But these guys don't get that.
It's just like a different brain organization where the cognitive
empathy is there. They know exactly what's right was wrong,
but the emotional empathy isn't.
Speaker 2 (20:22):
It's interesting that's a lot of that prefunnel cortex area,
as you know. And because I'm thinking in the top
of my head right now, did you do did you
do any testing at all just to see if their
prefunal cortex was compromised, Like did you do like test
switching or cards like they do for testing different parts of.
Speaker 3 (20:41):
The p I do technology.
Speaker 4 (20:44):
I do a lot of psychological but I take them
to do fMRI. We do tom fMRI structure up.
Speaker 2 (20:55):
Oh wow, they gave you a lot of battery.
Speaker 3 (20:58):
And that you know.
Speaker 4 (20:59):
The last reception that I'm doing and then I was
just mentioning to you is like in children who were abused,
these are terrible prices abuse sexually.
Speaker 3 (21:10):
Or with violence and all that.
Speaker 4 (21:14):
Because it's a very small sample, it's like fifteen children.
But I went to some houses where they keep them
because they took them away from their parents who like
TAGA files or whatever. And then we do a fright
before house their brain and their children who are beautiful physically.
(21:37):
You said, I'm going to take them to my house
and just rescue them.
Speaker 3 (21:41):
No, and they are in big trouble.
Speaker 4 (21:47):
Really have impulsive, lack of emotional realilation and all that.
And then we study the brain before and then we
make an intervention that told me to behavior of therapy
for or sexually abused children mainly, and it takes like
twenty or twenty four sessions.
Speaker 3 (22:07):
We didn't invent that.
Speaker 4 (22:08):
It's like a therapy psychology use. And so the question
was can we treat them? Can we change how the
brain organizations not just they get better and they're nicer people.
But the brain change. So we make structure on FM
right and emotional EFRAM right with paradigms that they just
(22:32):
see emotional. We check how the brain checks to your
emotional brains. Still you are so we're coming out.
Speaker 2 (22:41):
But what the adults did you interviewed? Did you do
the same thing with them? Too? Were able to?
Speaker 4 (22:46):
I have known a therapy, but I took like one
of barsa con bead the major of Mexico. I said,
this is a fantastic piece. Let's take it out of
jail and do a pet study. He said, I don't think,
I don't understand. I think what they're saying, but let's
take it out. So I took her to the U,
(23:07):
to the university, to the medical medical facility and we
did a pet starty and we.
Speaker 3 (23:14):
Did UH and we found how the.
Speaker 4 (23:18):
Left prefrontal cotec was hyperactive and it was it's not
a damage, it's just that it doesn't just manage your
control of process. And it's not just the brain. There's
a history and why the brain is like that. So
that's old question, you know, response to environment.
Speaker 2 (23:43):
Yeah, so hers was was a reduced volume and that
left side.
Speaker 4 (23:48):
It was hyperactivity. It's not just I didn't. It was
like a pet study. It's a positive of positive tomography.
And they introduced some contrast measure, so I had the measure,
so the left for frontal cortets, which I also checked
(24:11):
with mineral psychology. But it's very difficult to work in
the jelsystem.
Speaker 3 (24:16):
You know, you have to do which is terrible.
Speaker 4 (24:20):
So I don't work into digit. I don't go into
there because it's really demanding and then depending and to
get out. So that's why I started to work with
the children. But you were telling you were asking me
out about the organized spread. So I was also in.
Speaker 3 (24:38):
My lab and doing other stuff. And then they called me.
Speaker 4 (24:44):
Like the CIA of Mexico, which was the same, and
they said, can you have us to study.
Speaker 3 (24:51):
The organized crime.
Speaker 4 (24:53):
Yeah, so when you when you talk about organ and
so I went to I studied like one hundred and
twenty members of the organized plan who wearing jail system.
Speaker 3 (25:09):
It was fasting, you know, I.
Speaker 4 (25:11):
Went to different pigs details and when we talk about
organized cland you don't you have to talk about who
is the head of the cartel, but who is a king?
Pick the one with the citario that goes and keels,
and then who is the guy the guy who are
the police who they pay and he's corrupted. Police had
(25:34):
the security, and then you have the guys who.
Speaker 3 (25:38):
Just plant the seats and the.
Speaker 4 (25:43):
Amapo line, the Mariuba nine, all these things. So I
studied all those guys and it's like an article that
I published and I was telling you that Robert her
which I admire very much, and said, come on, I
saw your paper and I don't know, but can we
talk about it because you're applying that. I hope that
(26:03):
they checks to the different members of the dance. And
it's a difference. It's not the same thing that you're
a sitario. If you're you know, if you're the head
of the cartel like a chapel for example, or all
the guys, you also have a lot of psychoa.
Speaker 2 (26:25):
Did you see a lot of psychopathic traits there?
Speaker 4 (26:29):
Because you know, those guys start from nothing and they
go as sending.
Speaker 3 (26:33):
So in order to be the head of the organization,
you have to be but then you just like to
just send them to kill them. You don't do the
dirty work, but in the beginning to do.
Speaker 2 (26:50):
That's the interesting thing. People don't realize that. I remember
speaking of the agents and agents agents. You know, you
can have a guy walking in with a suit and
all of a sudden, he's a cartel and people don't
picture that.
Speaker 3 (27:05):
Oh, you can find a lot like Colombia.
Speaker 4 (27:09):
You know, the people were involved in cartels and it's
just like easy money and very fast money and there's
a lot of power. We have an issue here in
Mexico because your own people, you know, they they act
like if they wear cartail members. You know, they go
to this uh, to this disco, which is not a
(27:31):
discolled anthro we say in Mexico, and they right, so
they want to be them. You know, it's like they
have power. They have beautiful ladies and they want to
be like so they act like if they wear members.
Speaker 3 (27:49):
Of our hotel. It's interesting you identify with those figures
because they give you social mobility power.
Speaker 2 (27:59):
So it's a little bit like the US too. Some
youth will model after gang members and they'll listen to
the rap songs or whatever it is that they're listening to.
Speaker 4 (28:10):
Yeah, so the challenges are they really psychobats or are
they just pretending to be like psychobats? And I think
that in the psychology and our science if I love
to help in that society issue because you are not
taking you know, some of the people are not psychobuts.
(28:33):
It's interesting, So are they psychobats or not? In their psychobuts?
What you can do about?
Speaker 2 (28:40):
I know here in the US they estimate about eighty
percent of the population in the prison system is anti
social personality disorder, and then they say about twenty percent
of psychopath What do you think in Mexico? Do you
have any idea?
Speaker 3 (28:55):
Oh you made that study, Oh you did.
Speaker 4 (28:58):
Yes, So in my publications, you know you have like
people who were there in jail, you find there is
like twenty five percent of psychopathic the same thing jail system. Yes,
now all the people who are in jail are psychopaths
there like in the normal population it's one to three percent. O. Yeah, sure,
(29:22):
you know there are people around, but in jail it's
twenty five percent. And so so it's very important because
I don't know how is it in the United States.
Speaker 3 (29:34):
But in Mexico.
Speaker 4 (29:35):
The one who said this is a very dangerous guy
is a judge, and he judged the guy according to
the crime he completed.
Speaker 3 (29:45):
You know what, I'm saying, so it's not he can
use some nerrws.
Speaker 4 (29:50):
They don't do nervos projected to a guy or the
house or a person. Those are not well I'm not
into that. But so the job she's saying, Oh no,
he was the head of the cartel. He's very dangerous.
So they put it into a part of the jail
(30:11):
system where they just go out one hour and they
stay isolated twenty three.
Speaker 3 (30:17):
But that's wrong because I see he had, you know,
heads of the cartel who.
Speaker 4 (30:22):
Are not psychopaths, who are just like taking the opportunity.
Speaker 3 (30:27):
And I seemed just like really like he was forestealing
and he was the worst psychopice. So we need to
do some more testing.
Speaker 2 (30:38):
Yeah, that's the interesting things I know the US is
a lot of the judges and the judicial system is
starting to catch on. Ever since Laurence Steinberg when he
did a lot of the neurological studies and the valuability
of the adolescent brain. Once that got going with, the
judges started seeing things a little differently. That's a great
(30:59):
point too. But the psychopaths is here. Yeah, if you're
a psychopaths, they're going to put you away for a
very just like one.
Speaker 4 (31:06):
Right. You know, I think it's that it's like a
mixture of stuff about risk, family, risk factors, bring.
Speaker 3 (31:18):
Factors, and social issues.
Speaker 4 (31:21):
And you know, they said, oh, you're saying the same
thing that everybody.
Speaker 3 (31:24):
No, it's the interaction withween these viiables.
Speaker 4 (31:28):
Because for example, this last case that I cannot talk
a lot, but he had four brothers and one sister
and they're not cannibals and they have the sense style, right,
So what happened in this special case that make him
do this terrible.
Speaker 3 (31:46):
Stuff versus the brothers and sisters.
Speaker 4 (31:51):
And you know, I go and do preventive violence programs
into into like low low income cases. No, it's not
because there are a lot of black people there. There
are black people over the world, but there there are
a lot of stress and they have like a lot
of parents who work into alcolism.
Speaker 3 (32:10):
And all that.
Speaker 4 (32:11):
So I go in these programs and you know, they.
Speaker 3 (32:15):
Said, listen, doctor, I had a terrible life.
Speaker 4 (32:19):
They beat me, they do, and I'm not a killer,
So explain me why. And that's interesting, you know, they
challenge me, don't tell me that, let's stop.
Speaker 3 (32:31):
Is not only that.
Speaker 2 (32:34):
That's the interesting things I think society always wants the
one simple answer. And I always tell people life is
much more complicated and criminal behavior is very complicated. Like
you said, it's biopsychosocial, right.
Speaker 3 (32:46):
But it's a lot of factors.
Speaker 4 (32:49):
But I don't think that it's just like it's so
difficult that you cannot do anything. You can do something
and do prevented programs because I go to this program
I'm saying, I said, tell me, how.
Speaker 3 (33:03):
Do you take care of your child when he needs me?
Speaker 4 (33:07):
Kid?
Speaker 3 (33:08):
Oh, come on, I just put this in the floor.
He just knee down and I put.
Speaker 4 (33:14):
Him too, very very heavy rocks and I just put
them there so he will learn that he should do that.
Speaker 3 (33:23):
And I said, well, I'm going to tell you all
the stuff that you can do like that, so yes,
you know you can do something.
Speaker 2 (33:33):
No, it's absolutely true. And it's funny because every time
I when I've had gang uh, people who work in
the gang You're like one a friend of mine, he
worked thirty five years in LAPD for the gang unit.
He grew up in the in the area where there
were the gangs. He grew up with gangs, and I
always asked him the question, I said, why didn't you
join the gang because he said his cousins were gang members,
(33:55):
his close buddies were gang members. And he said, yo,
my dad, mom scared the hell out. They don't me,
don't ever do that. This is this is not life.
It's for you and I. You know, the discipline of
the house. And uh, it was one of these hear that.
That's I hear that all the time when I talk
to people who live in bad environments. And I said, well,
(34:15):
why didn't Actually I had a Green Beret last month
whose mom was had jumbstance abuse issues and she also
abused him. His dad left them. You started getting that
that already that similar background. And asked him, why didn't
you go to that route criminal route? And he said
I had a mentor.
Speaker 4 (34:35):
Right, that's you know when I tell you Kana, you
know the rady old Heller.
Speaker 3 (34:41):
She was never sent to school.
Speaker 4 (34:43):
There was nobody who You can have a friend, you
can have a psychology, you can have a teacher that
it's our rest to be here.
Speaker 3 (34:53):
So yes you can.
Speaker 4 (34:55):
But it's not only that. It's like high your brain function.
And for example, people are doing neuroscience. We want to
know not everybody who goes into this committypicable therapy. It
gets well. So why do people get well and not well?
But they get better? And it's related to your brain function.
(35:20):
If you have like if you're a silence, let's go
to resilence resultients. It's a capacity to overcome bad things.
So some people, if something bad happened to you, you're
a nit lab which is a part of your brain
that I need to send me that which of you,
Joseph Ledoux, which I is my friend?
Speaker 3 (35:40):
Like much I got into Mexico.
Speaker 4 (35:43):
And if you have a very hyperactive amitala, then it's
a you are not a good candidate to respond to
this therapy. So some people will just get.
Speaker 3 (35:59):
Really different, very bad because they lost their box.
Speaker 4 (36:03):
Oh and some people said, well that's okay, I lost
my little box and I don't get So it repents
how your system, your brain.
Speaker 3 (36:13):
System response to stress. So it's different. It's very interesting.
Speaker 2 (36:19):
It's very interesting. Have you seen have you seen any
work in trying to For instance, you have somebody who's
got an issue with you, a megula may not respond
well to CBT. Are they doing anything to try to
balance that out?
Speaker 3 (36:30):
Well, that's what we are trying to do, you know,
it's like, well not we a lot.
Speaker 4 (36:36):
Of people saying, okay, you have a very high so
you shouldn't go to twenty fourth sessions sessions of the CBT,
and we have to do another problem for you because
we know that that CBT is not working.
Speaker 3 (36:52):
From my thir fifteen sample, I have.
Speaker 4 (36:57):
Like eight children will response nobody are to but they
are much great their response very to stress.
Speaker 3 (37:05):
And all but seven were not too blood.
Speaker 2 (37:12):
Work.
Speaker 4 (37:12):
So we have tailwork to do how we can prevent
if the program is going.
Speaker 3 (37:17):
To work or if we have to do another.
Speaker 2 (37:20):
Program for the children. Fascinating, and I don't think I
haven't seen anything about medications working on them. I'm assuming
that hereance level is probably really good with psychopaths either well, it.
Speaker 4 (37:31):
Just depends if you are primary psychopaths, it's secondary psychobads.
And you know, some of these children they are confused
as attention that des orders and they said because they
don't concentrate, they go and they're hyperactive and they speed
on the other children and they're terrible and they the
(37:55):
psychiatrists will give him like Britain and strut therad or
some of these medications and that makes them worse because
they have high anxiety. What you need is another type
of medication. If you just upgrade the dopamentation system. Is
like if I give you like twenty five cops or toughing,
(38:17):
so you.
Speaker 3 (38:20):
No, well I don't know you, but.
Speaker 4 (38:24):
Now you have to treat them with all the type
of medication. So you lower down then site you ever
and not racing them site.
Speaker 2 (38:35):
Interesting. It's fascinating, especially having somebody from a different country
because I see the universality and a lot of these
things right, A lot of the causal factors are or
at least risk factors are universal. Amazing.
Speaker 4 (38:48):
You have a big issue here because we have like
we have light different back infome. You know, I don't
think that violence comes from poverty. You know, people think,
oh it just you know, it comes more for bad
income distribution when there are people who have everything and
(39:08):
people who don't have anything. And then really it's a
social trigger for all the other issues that we have.
Speaker 2 (39:17):
So forget what that's called in social psychology. Yeah, they
start comparing each other to different people. Yeah, you know
it's interesting too. I don't know if you've come across this.
I know we've got a few minutes left and we're
ready to wrap up and again folks talking to doctor
Feggi Ostrotski fe g g. Y Ostrotsky is os t
r os k Y. The book is Neuropsychology or Criminal Behavior.
(39:39):
Fascinating read doctor Ostrowski. You know, I've always wondered I
like to look at things multiple sides. It sounds like
you do as well. And I look at Japan and
I look at some of the other countries that at
a very low level of homicides, and I'm trying to
find out are there risk factors there at lower than ours?
What's going on? Have you seen anything? Oh?
Speaker 3 (40:01):
Yeah, you know.
Speaker 4 (40:02):
For example, it's like in Norway, in the Scandinagian they're
closing the jel systems because they're closing them. And it's
not because I said, oh, because they are like Scandinavia.
Speaker 3 (40:17):
No, they have a lot of.
Speaker 4 (40:18):
Immigrants, but they have a very nice social system of
rehabilitation in the people, so they teach them some skills,
and it's just like, but if your your mental set
is just like, let's put these terrible killers in jail
(40:38):
so they can broaden in jail, and we don't want
them to go out their backs off in society. So
that's your philosophy about what do we do with the
people who are in jail, how can we prevent it.
It's so, you know, there's a story that you have,
(40:59):
like a group of guys who live together and one
of the guys just get crazy and just break the
TV and just break the whole thing. And one of them,
so one of the guys who live with him said,
why don't we just kick them out.
Speaker 3 (41:13):
Of the house.
Speaker 4 (41:14):
We don't want to someone said, no, let's see what
happened to him and so and so you can have
different treatment for his behavior. So in Mexico, we're building lots.
Speaker 2 (41:28):
Of jails in the building building.
Speaker 3 (41:32):
You know, let's put them in jails. And I don't
think in the.
Speaker 4 (41:36):
United States they have a lot of preventive programs.
Speaker 3 (41:39):
And that's why you about.
Speaker 4 (41:41):
You know, they go in jails and they're like difficult
and uh.
Speaker 3 (41:46):
And then you go out. If you go out, you
go to the.
Speaker 4 (41:49):
Same environment and you don't have friends, you don't have
it's a primogenic environment and that doesn't help to get
so these standing up places, they don't theirselfs. They're closing
the jail system. And so I think it's an interesting lecture,
(42:10):
you know, a lesson not lecture.
Speaker 2 (42:12):
And one of these days maybe we'll have to do
is bring in some other forensic psychologist from around the
world and have a panel.
Speaker 4 (42:20):
But it's the philosophy of what do you do with
people who if somebody kill.
Speaker 3 (42:25):
Somebody of your family and if you like him, or they.
Speaker 4 (42:28):
Kidnap you and they called your ear, you don't want
him to go back into society, like you said, let
him just brought them in jail.
Speaker 3 (42:40):
And maybe that philosophy is not the.
Speaker 4 (42:42):
Right one because there are sixty percent of the people
who are getting jail and who get liberated, they will
go back into the jel system and getting worse.
Speaker 2 (42:54):
Is that the same for you in Mexico as well?
There's citizen right, right.
Speaker 4 (42:58):
We went the same y sixty percent or the people
who for meet crimes, they will go back and the
worst crimes.
Speaker 2 (43:06):
And is it the same in Mexico because I know
here they say about five to eight percent of the
criminals commit about sixty to fifty five percent of the crimes.
But the same as you are you finding that the
same as Mexico?
Speaker 4 (43:19):
Right? You know, it's just like maybe they just like
people who can just they just catch them, fort them,
but yes they're Yes.
Speaker 3 (43:28):
You can check them. And as I told you, I've seen.
Speaker 4 (43:31):
People who are like in these high security jails who
the judge said, this is the worst guy. And then
I interviewed some people who wear robbers and they said,
he's going out next week. Said my god. He said
were psychopaths that I've seen in my life. And I
didn't say anything because you know, I thought they're going
(43:52):
to liberate him. And they said, oh, you're not going
out of jail because you know the plumpy girl that
came and interview that you.
Speaker 3 (44:02):
Tell people.
Speaker 4 (44:04):
You know what I'm saying, I'm not getting into that system.
I was like allowed to study them. And he was
a drug dealer. He the mother will bring drugs into
the JEL system and he was going out and he
will do the worst thing ever and he.
Speaker 3 (44:25):
Was therefore Party Farne, you don't want to.
Speaker 4 (44:31):
So the thing is that you have to have people
who know about what psychopathy, what can we do, how
you organize the JAEL system and how can you recuperate?
And it's not just like giving because I don't know
how it. But in Mexico they teach them how to
do art and you know and do little boxes and
(44:54):
they are terrible.
Speaker 3 (44:56):
You will never buy that little art or boxes.
Speaker 4 (44:59):
You have to teach them as special skills and to
teach him emotional out of control where they go out
so they wouldn't kill, you know, everybody. So it's more
than just giving them skills.
Speaker 2 (45:13):
Yeah, it's interesting. I think I just spoke to I
think you might know doctor Bullington. It sounds he was
the guy. What he is the guy he's a professor,
he's a teacher, but he's a doctorate in education, I think.
But he's the one who teaches chess and he's been
working with chess in the prison systems. Because it's interesting
when we had the conversation, a lot of the skill
(45:34):
set that you need for chess requires the pre frontal
cortex because you need to be able to have working memory.
You have to control your impulses, your emotion regulation on
your playing, so you have a planning and anticipating all
this stuff. And it was interesting because he says they're
finding some success in the prison systems with the individual's
behaving better, so that, yeah, it's kind of interesting how
(45:55):
that would work.
Speaker 4 (45:58):
You know, I can see them Merrita but you need
more more than that, just an emotional the relation. Because
there's a study of this great chess player. She was
from Poland and she was like that great start and
they make this functional Mari and she just like, in
order to be so successful, he used the face area
(46:21):
of your brain that tech patterns and that's how she
was of good because you know she saw the patterns
and immediate you want. But that's the only skill that
you had. She didn't have any great queue or anything
like that. So I think that's a very small part.
You have to change the family setting, the social setting,
(46:43):
and the skills of outdoor revelation and I meaning applied
to go back.
Speaker 2 (46:52):
That's true too, a lot of work, doctor Estrowsky. I
don't think we're going to solve it today, even though
I can keep you here for another four hours. We
could talk all day, really fascinating stuff. Do you have
any websites or anything you want to send people to her?
Speaker 4 (47:04):
Well, well, I have my it's feggiosky at it's my
lap veg at the university to so they can.
Speaker 3 (47:16):
Check some of the pla there, and then I have
tweeter that I don't.
Speaker 2 (47:23):
I don't blame you I'm very easy. Yeah, it sounds
like you're doing great work again. Folks, is doctor Feggi Ostrotski.
It's f E d G y O S t r
O s k Y. I highly recommend the book Neuropsychology
Criminal Behavior check out. If you type in her name
of Google, you'll find out all the rest of her studies.
Doctor Strotski, thank you so much for doing this.
Speaker 3 (47:44):
Real nice to talk to you.
Speaker 2 (47:46):
Thank you everyone for listening. Make sure to share a
subscribe What that I like? Butdon you know what we're saying?
We like it.
From wherever you are around the world, around the world.
Welcome to the Circle of Insight, a show that explores
the many facets of human behavior and the wonders of
the human mind. And now here's your host, doctor Carlos.
Speaker 2 (00:30):
Welcome back, folks. Today we have a great guest, doctor
Feggi Ostrovsky. It's fegg Y Ostrowsky is O S t r.
O sk Y. She's a professor of neuropsychology in the
head of the Laboratory of Neuropsychology and Psychophysiology at the
National Autonomous University of Mexico. She has published twenty five books,
(00:52):
six neuropsychological tests, and over two three and forty journal
articles and chapters and more to come. So today we're
going to be talking a lot about neuropsychology and criminal
behavior and all sorts of fashions. We'll be talking about
organized crime, we'll be talking about psychopaths. So you don't
want to miss this conversation. I think you're going to
enjoy it. Before we get started, to make sure to share, subscribe,
(01:12):
hit that like button. You know we'll like it. It's
not wasting no more time. Over to the show, doctor Ostrosky, Welcome.
Speaker 3 (01:18):
Thank you so much.
Speaker 2 (01:19):
Nice, thank you very much for being here. I mean,
I enjoyed the conversation just before the show. It was
a lot of fun. Now, I read your book on
Neuropsychology and Criminal Behavior, a great read, folks. You can
pick it up on Amazon dot com. And this is
something that fascinates That's why we have the podcast. That
fascinates a lot of people. They always want to know
what's going on. And I haven't seen too many books
(01:43):
in regards to neuropsychology and criminal behavior. I think the
last one, I can't remember how many years ago, is
three or four years ago. I think Adrian Rain he
had one big one for a while, fantastic. Yeah, I'm
not sure how long ago that was. I think he's
been growing another one. But either way, doctor Ostrotski, I
want to skip through a lot of the stuff and
(02:04):
go straight to more of the meat, as they call it,
because people want to know. But I enjoyed the conversation
we were having a minute ago about organized crime and
the mind. So Babe, tell us a little bit about
what you found. And I liked how you also accentuated
the fact that organized crime, they are very different types
of criminals involved in an organized crime, so tell us
(02:26):
a little bit about that.
Speaker 4 (02:27):
Well, yes, you know, I started this chance a little bit,
not a right chance, because I work in neuro psychology
and science. So in nineteen ninety four, the government just
called to my lab and said, do you know about
was a profile of a senior key.
Speaker 3 (02:46):
Here or somebody who kill a president?
Speaker 4 (02:48):
So I said, okay, you know, so I just went
to interview because they want to interview Maria Unto. He
was a guy who Quiaki, one of the presidents. He
was a candidate to the presidency.
Speaker 2 (03:04):
Of Mexico for Losio.
Speaker 4 (03:07):
That was my starting in nineteen ninety four, and they
called me in and I said, he said, yes, we
want to see if people make some nescyde testing. They
didn't know what no psych testing was, but they said
somebody told I said, you can do that because they
want to know if he acts by himself but he
(03:28):
was manipulated.
Speaker 3 (03:30):
What somebody, so nero psychology can.
Speaker 4 (03:33):
Tell you can tell you, he said, able to plan,
organize and sequence of crime, or he's just like a puppet.
Speaker 3 (03:42):
It's not that we are magicians, but we can do that.
Speaker 4 (03:45):
So that was my first I went there. I said, okay, go,
I felt like to the poster in the silence of
the lamp, you know, okay, So that was my first experience.
And then, you know, I interviewed him, but he didn't
want to work with me a lot. So meanwhile I
(04:06):
was saying, can you bring other criminals because I'm.
Speaker 3 (04:09):
Cure at his high security jail. So I interview a
lot of people like the guy who.
Speaker 4 (04:15):
Just to kidnap people who cut the ear, the ear
of his big teams and send the years.
Speaker 3 (04:24):
Said send me all the money. So that's how it start.
Speaker 2 (04:29):
You cut the years and sent it for ransom.
Speaker 4 (04:32):
It's for ransom, and I said, no, it was terrible.
His named he said, it's the cutting of the ears.
And he was very mail like he's still in jail,
and well to make the long starting short. So this
was my first In nineteen ninety four, I published some
(04:54):
papers regarding to what's the profile of somebody who is
like this kidnapper was able to cut the ears and
build a round some to somebody who's just not so
so so dangerous. But then they called me again and
they said, could you come in tell me about selial killers.
(05:17):
The head of the government Mexico Alexandri and Sema, and.
Speaker 3 (05:24):
I said, okay, so they had a serial killer who.
Speaker 4 (05:28):
Was killing old ladies. He said, can you come and
tell me about that?
Speaker 3 (05:34):
So okay, I'll go again. So I go there and
they had this case of.
Speaker 4 (05:40):
They were old ladies who were being killed, so they
didn't know what to look for, and they said could
you help us, which I think it was pretty advanced
that they called our professor at the university to do that.
Speaker 3 (05:53):
So I was involved.
Speaker 4 (05:55):
And then suddenly they didn't know it was a woman
or a guy, of you was a transsexual because a
big guy, and it was choking the old ladies and
there was no signs of that that the person will
get into the house, people will open the door or
(06:15):
she or he, so well, i'll to make the short story.
Speaker 3 (06:20):
Suddenly they caught that.
Speaker 4 (06:22):
They caught her and it was one of a bass
which are in writing the book about here. She was
accused of killing eighteen old ladies an attempt to kill
two others and she has like seven hundred and forty
six years in jail because in Mexico we didn't have
(06:43):
that penalty. So I went to see her and I
started her profile, which was really interesting because you know,
the Syria killer just kills something about them. It's just
not that one day she will be saying, what I'm
going to do there today, I'm gonna go and kill
old ladies, just like an avun fantasy in your mind.
Speaker 3 (07:07):
Because we have some experiences, and in this case.
Speaker 4 (07:11):
She was she lived with a woman who hate her
because the moment she was born, the father just took away.
So this woman could have a munication. The mother of
Juana came to Mexico. She was from Pachuca, came to
Mexico and then she just got involved with another guy
(07:33):
and then she hated When I was very you know
from Mexicans, it's like one ninety one eighty five.
Speaker 3 (07:42):
Maybe ters she was really old. So that's why.
Speaker 2 (07:46):
People high over sixteen, right.
Speaker 4 (07:51):
So that's so that's why they thought that it was
a guy and he had joined her, so they were
like transsectionals or something.
Speaker 3 (08:00):
But anyhow, so they taught her and she was in this.
Speaker 4 (08:07):
Environment where they don't like her. Her mother just create
her because she represents the father left her. So she
started to hate this woman. She she never was sent
to school because in Mexico, among the very low and
people women had to just make the kia, I think
the home.
Speaker 3 (08:27):
She would go to school, go to school, I'm going
to make tortillas.
Speaker 4 (08:32):
So she didn't have any other figure to protect her,
like a sto, like a teacher or somebody around. So
she started at thirteen years old. When she was three
years old, the mother went to have some alcohol.
Speaker 3 (08:50):
She was alcoholic with some.
Speaker 4 (08:52):
Guys, and she said, why don't I treat my daughter
for you for three services?
Speaker 3 (08:58):
Three and she said they said okay. So she left the.
Speaker 4 (09:03):
Girl and they break her and she had a son
one year after and they they just uh, they tied
her with ropes. That's very important because she used to
kill the old ladies with a rope, right, so uh,
(09:29):
you know, the story is terrible, but she she she
started to do that, and so it's.
Speaker 3 (09:39):
Like a story of sup here that just happened spontaneously.
You know, even if you.
Speaker 4 (09:44):
Talk about Ted Bondie that everyone else, she was like
sort of like that Ted Bonnie, but there was something
in her history. She has abnormal fantasies about just getting
rid of the mother who so she used to kill
old ladies because it represents her mother. But then she
has a double life. You know, she will take Mariachi's
(10:08):
you know, like the scene to my neighbor who was
an old lady and she called her mamita.
Speaker 3 (10:18):
So she hate old ladies. But then she has this.
Speaker 4 (10:24):
I know, and she was like a professional wrestler and
she Lazama.
Speaker 3 (10:32):
Then she lends you the science lady and she has.
Speaker 4 (10:37):
Her uniform and I have photos of her and uh
so she used to have all these oppressions working in
her wrestling and suddenly she just stopped doing your wrestling
because she was forty three years old. And that's when
she started to kill because that's abnormal. You start to
feel so yeah, right, And she was smart. She didn't
(11:02):
went to school. She know, didn't know how to write
her name or anything. But she just convinced so ladies
to let her team into the house and said, can
I help you with a cleaning bag? So they opened
the door for her. And if they mistreat her, then
she will chop them. She was not an organance crumb.
(11:26):
She will take some chords that she found there some nyelon.
Speaker 3 (11:33):
That's so yes.
Speaker 2 (11:37):
Let me ask you this, doctor Ostrowski, did you do
a PCL on her? Did you do the psychopathy checklist
on her.
Speaker 4 (11:42):
Oh of course, yeah, she has high levels on psychopathy.
Speaker 3 (11:47):
But usually what.
Speaker 4 (11:48):
I found is they have the most affected and emotional
scoring very high.
Speaker 3 (11:56):
It's not that they have a very antisocial store.
Speaker 4 (12:00):
Before I was telling you that I've seen a case
that it's really erasing that I cannot really talk about it, and.
Speaker 2 (12:08):
Uh, it happens.
Speaker 4 (12:12):
Because it's it's gonna be an ethnic series. But it's
just like he doesn't have any story of breaking the law,
but eight people, so he's a cannon ball. And that's
so I could interview him and I can have a
(12:34):
copy with him and not suspecting.
Speaker 3 (12:37):
I respect that he's affective.
Speaker 4 (12:40):
An emotional part is what's important, and I think that
take you know something.
Speaker 3 (12:44):
That I'm doing now. I'm just jumping into subjects, but it's.
Speaker 4 (12:49):
Connected because the question is the psychopath did you prevent it?
Speaker 3 (12:55):
Who are these people?
Speaker 4 (12:57):
And currently we know there's primary psychopathy where you have
these guys who have not many of the politicians that
we have for perfect life, no, and could use the
other people for their own purpose and you don't finance
history of views just like people who are manipulating other people.
Speaker 3 (13:20):
So there are two types of psychopricts.
Speaker 4 (13:23):
Those people who are like you don't find any history
of views or anything, but just just meet people and
well you can find some stories. But you know, like
many politicians and many people who work in finance who
steal the money. I'm not saying that everybody, my kids
(13:44):
work in finance and there, but it's just like that,
you take the money of poor people and you you
use it for your own purpose.
Speaker 2 (13:54):
But hey, what do you think are they scoring like
an eighteen or twenty for some of those the ones
who are working in finance instance that there are some
and are they scoring the lower numbers or no?
Speaker 4 (14:03):
That's like the successful psychopaths. You know, it's because they're
successful because they're going to jail, not because they're not
psychopaths and they are out and.
Speaker 3 (14:14):
There, Well we can talk.
Speaker 4 (14:17):
I don't want to get in politics because I think
it's a dangerous thing to get. But you know many
candidate and presidents that he will they will use the
people for their own purpose and that's that's that's successful psychobats,
and they will scored high in the psychopathy checklist of
(14:40):
hair with you know Robert Hare, it's like a fantastic
guy who started to systemize the analysis of psychobats. And well,
so that's the primary psychopaths, where they're cool, they don't
have high anxiety.
Speaker 3 (14:58):
Levels and they do all these terrible stuff.
Speaker 4 (15:01):
But there's the secondary psychobats, and the secondary psychobats. Phenotypically
they're the same. They look exactly the same, but the
cause of the psychopathy is different. Some looking and usually
if they have a history of abuse, like one Blaassa,
(15:22):
they have a history of abuse, they have high anxiety levels,
and it's a sole profile, but it's different, and the
difference is that you can try to treat them and
prevent them from happening.
Speaker 2 (15:38):
Doctor Ostrotski, did you see anything, because I've seen when
I stayed a lot of the serial killers they seem
to have neurological impairments, either from TBI, traumatic brain injuries
or prenatal exposure to environmental toxins anything. Did you see
any of that during your research? Right?
Speaker 3 (15:55):
You cannot, you know, it's like you cannot. In order
for need to study, I've been study more than three
hundred and forty criminal offenders.
Speaker 4 (16:04):
In high security jails and in uh in normal jails,
regular jails, and for me to study you can't. You
can have primary psycho but primary antisocial behavior or secretary.
And when we talk secondary, it's like you have like
brain tama, you have antis you have borderline personality, or
(16:28):
you have all the types that can explain your behave
like su very, depression calls a lot of wility and
aggression towards your partner.
Speaker 3 (16:39):
So in order or draw jougs abuse and cast But in.
Speaker 4 (16:44):
Order for me to study, I have to just check
that they don't have that as a primary factor.
Speaker 3 (16:51):
So I study.
Speaker 4 (16:53):
You know there are secondary because they secondary antisocial personality,
because you can treat that like cost like they have
epilepsy or the temporal love or whatever, and that's a
different treatment. So I worked with the really the primary
psychobats or the primary and social and that's why we're
(17:17):
talking about it.
Speaker 3 (17:18):
What's happening in the brain? What happened?
Speaker 2 (17:22):
Yeah, fascinating. Now that woman you mentioned earlier who was
strangling the elderly women were would you be able to
have coffee with her and not notice the difference or
would you notice it?
Speaker 3 (17:31):
Well, she has.
Speaker 4 (17:32):
A very special look. It was like when you see
the sights of the lump and then the co pa
insist and I don't want to bring movies into that
yet this like look just like she was like looking
at you and trust fascining you.
Speaker 3 (17:50):
And when she was talking about things, it was like
she was telling me about about the weather. You know,
there was no emotion on it. So the eye side,
you know, they said that I is a measure of
your heart or.
Speaker 4 (18:11):
Right.
Speaker 3 (18:12):
But the last guy that i'd seen, he didn't have.
The thing is that.
Speaker 4 (18:21):
I have another one who was also like he was
a poet. He will bring points to women's in cafes,
and he was good looking, and he will give you
like a white flower and just talk to you and
said could you write my point for like one dollar
(18:41):
orles and that and everybody and I couldn't have coffee
with him. And then they found him eating one of
her lovers.
Speaker 3 (18:55):
He was.
Speaker 2 (18:58):
So Yes, it sounds like some of the ones you've
interviewed already and talked to you seem to somehow compartmentalize
the different parts of their life, the killing part of it,
and just interacting with individuals in their life in a
normal fashion.
Speaker 3 (19:15):
Right.
Speaker 4 (19:15):
That's the fascinating fire about it, right start, Because you know,
when I interviewed Juan Alvadasa. She said, why are you here?
And then she confessed treatments, but you know, she really
and she said, I said the last one. I said,
is it bad? He said, yeah, it's not good. Why
(19:37):
is it bad?
Speaker 3 (19:38):
Because it's not good to take the life of anybody.
Speaker 4 (19:42):
You know. She has perfect the normal part, where's good
and where's that? But the effective connection is not there.
So maybe somebody just caught you out and you are
almost dying in your car because they did that, and
you want to.
Speaker 3 (19:58):
Kill that person.
Speaker 4 (20:00):
There are some uh readers, emotional univers that said, I'm
not going to kill them, But these guys don't get that.
It's just like a different brain organization where the cognitive
empathy is there. They know exactly what's right was wrong,
but the emotional empathy isn't.
Speaker 2 (20:22):
It's interesting that's a lot of that prefunnel cortex area,
as you know. And because I'm thinking in the top
of my head right now, did you do did you
do any testing at all just to see if their
prefunal cortex was compromised, Like did you do like test
switching or cards like they do for testing different parts of.
Speaker 3 (20:41):
The p I do technology.
Speaker 4 (20:44):
I do a lot of psychological but I take them
to do fMRI. We do tom fMRI structure up.
Speaker 2 (20:55):
Oh wow, they gave you a lot of battery.
Speaker 3 (20:58):
And that you know.
Speaker 4 (20:59):
The last reception that I'm doing and then I was
just mentioning to you is like in children who were abused,
these are terrible prices abuse sexually.
Speaker 3 (21:10):
Or with violence and all that.
Speaker 4 (21:14):
Because it's a very small sample, it's like fifteen children.
But I went to some houses where they keep them
because they took them away from their parents who like
TAGA files or whatever. And then we do a fright
before house their brain and their children who are beautiful physically.
(21:37):
You said, I'm going to take them to my house
and just rescue them.
Speaker 3 (21:41):
No, and they are in big trouble.
Speaker 4 (21:47):
Really have impulsive, lack of emotional realilation and all that.
And then we study the brain before and then we
make an intervention that told me to behavior of therapy
for or sexually abused children mainly, and it takes like
twenty or twenty four sessions.
Speaker 3 (22:07):
We didn't invent that.
Speaker 4 (22:08):
It's like a therapy psychology use. And so the question
was can we treat them? Can we change how the
brain organizations not just they get better and they're nicer people.
But the brain change. So we make structure on FM
right and emotional EFRAM right with paradigms that they just
(22:32):
see emotional. We check how the brain checks to your
emotional brains. Still you are so we're coming out.
Speaker 2 (22:41):
But what the adults did you interviewed? Did you do
the same thing with them? Too? Were able to?
Speaker 4 (22:46):
I have known a therapy, but I took like one
of barsa con bead the major of Mexico. I said,
this is a fantastic piece. Let's take it out of
jail and do a pet study. He said, I don't think,
I don't understand. I think what they're saying, but let's
take it out. So I took her to the U,
(23:07):
to the university, to the medical medical facility and we
did a pet starty and we.
Speaker 3 (23:14):
Did UH and we found how the.
Speaker 4 (23:18):
Left prefrontal cotec was hyperactive and it was it's not
a damage, it's just that it doesn't just manage your
control of process. And it's not just the brain. There's
a history and why the brain is like that. So
that's old question, you know, response to environment.
Speaker 2 (23:43):
Yeah, so hers was was a reduced volume and that
left side.
Speaker 4 (23:48):
It was hyperactivity. It's not just I didn't. It was
like a pet study. It's a positive of positive tomography.
And they introduced some contrast measure, so I had the measure,
so the left for frontal cortets, which I also checked
(24:11):
with mineral psychology. But it's very difficult to work in
the jelsystem.
Speaker 3 (24:16):
You know, you have to do which is terrible.
Speaker 4 (24:20):
So I don't work into digit. I don't go into
there because it's really demanding and then depending and to
get out. So that's why I started to work with
the children. But you were telling you were asking me
out about the organized spread. So I was also in.
Speaker 3 (24:38):
My lab and doing other stuff. And then they called me.
Speaker 4 (24:44):
Like the CIA of Mexico, which was the same, and
they said, can you have us to study.
Speaker 3 (24:51):
The organized crime.
Speaker 4 (24:53):
Yeah, so when you when you talk about organ and
so I went to I studied like one hundred and
twenty members of the organized plan who wearing jail system.
Speaker 3 (25:09):
It was fasting, you know, I.
Speaker 4 (25:11):
Went to different pigs details and when we talk about
organized cland you don't you have to talk about who
is the head of the cartel, but who is a king?
Pick the one with the citario that goes and keels,
and then who is the guy the guy who are
the police who they pay and he's corrupted. Police had
(25:34):
the security, and then you have the guys who.
Speaker 3 (25:38):
Just plant the seats and the.
Speaker 4 (25:43):
Amapo line, the Mariuba nine, all these things. So I
studied all those guys and it's like an article that
I published and I was telling you that Robert her
which I admire very much, and said, come on, I
saw your paper and I don't know, but can we
talk about it because you're applying that. I hope that
(26:03):
they checks to the different members of the dance. And
it's a difference. It's not the same thing that you're
a sitario. If you're you know, if you're the head
of the cartel like a chapel for example, or all
the guys, you also have a lot of psychoa.
Speaker 2 (26:25):
Did you see a lot of psychopathic traits there?
Speaker 4 (26:29):
Because you know, those guys start from nothing and they
go as sending.
Speaker 3 (26:33):
So in order to be the head of the organization,
you have to be but then you just like to
just send them to kill them. You don't do the
dirty work, but in the beginning to do.
Speaker 2 (26:50):
That's the interesting thing. People don't realize that. I remember
speaking of the agents and agents agents. You know, you
can have a guy walking in with a suit and
all of a sudden, he's a cartel and people don't
picture that.
Speaker 3 (27:05):
Oh, you can find a lot like Colombia.
Speaker 4 (27:09):
You know, the people were involved in cartels and it's
just like easy money and very fast money and there's
a lot of power. We have an issue here in
Mexico because your own people, you know, they they act
like if they wear cartail members. You know, they go
to this uh, to this disco, which is not a
(27:31):
discolled anthro we say in Mexico, and they right, so
they want to be them. You know, it's like they
have power. They have beautiful ladies and they want to
be like so they act like if they wear members.
Speaker 3 (27:49):
Of our hotel. It's interesting you identify with those figures
because they give you social mobility power.
Speaker 2 (27:59):
So it's a little bit like the US too. Some
youth will model after gang members and they'll listen to
the rap songs or whatever it is that they're listening to.
Speaker 4 (28:10):
Yeah, so the challenges are they really psychobats or are
they just pretending to be like psychobats? And I think
that in the psychology and our science if I love
to help in that society issue because you are not
taking you know, some of the people are not psychobuts.
(28:33):
It's interesting, So are they psychobats or not? In their psychobuts?
What you can do about?
Speaker 2 (28:40):
I know here in the US they estimate about eighty
percent of the population in the prison system is anti
social personality disorder, and then they say about twenty percent
of psychopath What do you think in Mexico? Do you
have any idea?
Speaker 3 (28:55):
Oh you made that study, Oh you did.
Speaker 4 (28:58):
Yes, So in my publications, you know you have like
people who were there in jail, you find there is
like twenty five percent of psychopathic the same thing jail system. Yes,
now all the people who are in jail are psychopaths
there like in the normal population it's one to three percent. O. Yeah, sure,
(29:22):
you know there are people around, but in jail it's
twenty five percent. And so so it's very important because
I don't know how is it in the United States.
Speaker 3 (29:34):
But in Mexico.
Speaker 4 (29:35):
The one who said this is a very dangerous guy
is a judge, and he judged the guy according to
the crime he completed.
Speaker 3 (29:45):
You know what, I'm saying, so it's not he can
use some nerrws.
Speaker 4 (29:50):
They don't do nervos projected to a guy or the
house or a person. Those are not well I'm not
into that. But so the job she's saying, Oh no,
he was the head of the cartel. He's very dangerous.
So they put it into a part of the jail
(30:11):
system where they just go out one hour and they
stay isolated twenty three.
Speaker 3 (30:17):
But that's wrong because I see he had, you know,
heads of the cartel who.
Speaker 4 (30:22):
Are not psychopaths, who are just like taking the opportunity.
Speaker 3 (30:27):
And I seemed just like really like he was forestealing
and he was the worst psychopice. So we need to
do some more testing.
Speaker 2 (30:38):
Yeah, that's the interesting things I know the US is
a lot of the judges and the judicial system is
starting to catch on. Ever since Laurence Steinberg when he
did a lot of the neurological studies and the valuability
of the adolescent brain. Once that got going with, the
judges started seeing things a little differently. That's a great
(30:59):
point too. But the psychopaths is here. Yeah, if you're
a psychopaths, they're going to put you away for a
very just like one.
Speaker 4 (31:06):
Right. You know, I think it's that it's like a
mixture of stuff about risk, family, risk factors, bring.
Speaker 3 (31:18):
Factors, and social issues.
Speaker 4 (31:21):
And you know, they said, oh, you're saying the same
thing that everybody.
Speaker 3 (31:24):
No, it's the interaction withween these viiables.
Speaker 4 (31:28):
Because for example, this last case that I cannot talk
a lot, but he had four brothers and one sister
and they're not cannibals and they have the sense style, right,
So what happened in this special case that make him
do this terrible.
Speaker 3 (31:46):
Stuff versus the brothers and sisters.
Speaker 4 (31:51):
And you know, I go and do preventive violence programs
into into like low low income cases. No, it's not
because there are a lot of black people there. There
are black people over the world, but there there are
a lot of stress and they have like a lot
of parents who work into alcolism.
Speaker 3 (32:10):
And all that.
Speaker 4 (32:11):
So I go in these programs and you know, they.
Speaker 3 (32:15):
Said, listen, doctor, I had a terrible life.
Speaker 4 (32:19):
They beat me, they do, and I'm not a killer,
So explain me why. And that's interesting, you know, they
challenge me, don't tell me that, let's stop.
Speaker 3 (32:31):
Is not only that.
Speaker 2 (32:34):
That's the interesting things I think society always wants the
one simple answer. And I always tell people life is
much more complicated and criminal behavior is very complicated. Like
you said, it's biopsychosocial, right.
Speaker 3 (32:46):
But it's a lot of factors.
Speaker 4 (32:49):
But I don't think that it's just like it's so
difficult that you cannot do anything. You can do something
and do prevented programs because I go to this program
I'm saying, I said, tell me, how.
Speaker 3 (33:03):
Do you take care of your child when he needs me?
Speaker 4 (33:07):
Kid?
Speaker 3 (33:08):
Oh, come on, I just put this in the floor.
He just knee down and I put.
Speaker 4 (33:14):
Him too, very very heavy rocks and I just put
them there so he will learn that he should do that.
Speaker 3 (33:23):
And I said, well, I'm going to tell you all
the stuff that you can do like that, so yes,
you know you can do something.
Speaker 2 (33:33):
No, it's absolutely true. And it's funny because every time
I when I've had gang uh, people who work in
the gang You're like one a friend of mine, he
worked thirty five years in LAPD for the gang unit.
He grew up in the in the area where there
were the gangs. He grew up with gangs, and I
always asked him the question, I said, why didn't you
join the gang because he said his cousins were gang members,
(33:55):
his close buddies were gang members. And he said, yo,
my dad, mom scared the hell out. They don't me,
don't ever do that. This is this is not life.
It's for you and I. You know, the discipline of
the house. And uh, it was one of these hear that.
That's I hear that all the time when I talk
to people who live in bad environments. And I said, well,
(34:15):
why didn't Actually I had a Green Beret last month
whose mom was had jumbstance abuse issues and she also
abused him. His dad left them. You started getting that
that already that similar background. And asked him, why didn't
you go to that route criminal route? And he said
I had a mentor.
Speaker 4 (34:35):
Right, that's you know when I tell you Kana, you
know the rady old Heller.
Speaker 3 (34:41):
She was never sent to school.
Speaker 4 (34:43):
There was nobody who You can have a friend, you
can have a psychology, you can have a teacher that
it's our rest to be here.
Speaker 3 (34:53):
So yes you can.
Speaker 4 (34:55):
But it's not only that. It's like high your brain function.
And for example, people are doing neuroscience. We want to
know not everybody who goes into this committypicable therapy. It
gets well. So why do people get well and not well?
But they get better? And it's related to your brain function.
(35:20):
If you have like if you're a silence, let's go
to resilence resultients. It's a capacity to overcome bad things.
So some people, if something bad happened to you, you're
a nit lab which is a part of your brain
that I need to send me that which of you,
Joseph Ledoux, which I is my friend?
Speaker 3 (35:40):
Like much I got into Mexico.
Speaker 4 (35:43):
And if you have a very hyperactive amitala, then it's
a you are not a good candidate to respond to
this therapy. So some people will just get.
Speaker 3 (35:59):
Really different, very bad because they lost their box.
Speaker 4 (36:03):
Oh and some people said, well that's okay, I lost
my little box and I don't get So it repents
how your system, your brain.
Speaker 3 (36:13):
System response to stress. So it's different. It's very interesting.
Speaker 2 (36:19):
It's very interesting. Have you seen have you seen any
work in trying to For instance, you have somebody who's
got an issue with you, a megula may not respond
well to CBT. Are they doing anything to try to
balance that out?
Speaker 3 (36:30):
Well, that's what we are trying to do, you know,
it's like, well not we a lot.
Speaker 4 (36:36):
Of people saying, okay, you have a very high so
you shouldn't go to twenty fourth sessions sessions of the CBT,
and we have to do another problem for you because
we know that that CBT is not working.
Speaker 3 (36:52):
From my thir fifteen sample, I have.
Speaker 4 (36:57):
Like eight children will response nobody are to but they
are much great their response very to stress.
Speaker 3 (37:05):
And all but seven were not too blood.
Speaker 2 (37:12):
Work.
Speaker 4 (37:12):
So we have tailwork to do how we can prevent
if the program is going.
Speaker 3 (37:17):
To work or if we have to do another.
Speaker 2 (37:20):
Program for the children. Fascinating, and I don't think I
haven't seen anything about medications working on them. I'm assuming
that hereance level is probably really good with psychopaths either well, it.
Speaker 4 (37:31):
Just depends if you are primary psychopaths, it's secondary psychobads.
And you know, some of these children they are confused
as attention that des orders and they said because they
don't concentrate, they go and they're hyperactive and they speed
on the other children and they're terrible and they the
(37:55):
psychiatrists will give him like Britain and strut therad or
some of these medications and that makes them worse because
they have high anxiety. What you need is another type
of medication. If you just upgrade the dopamentation system. Is
like if I give you like twenty five cops or toughing,
(38:17):
so you.
Speaker 3 (38:20):
No, well I don't know you, but.
Speaker 4 (38:24):
Now you have to treat them with all the type
of medication. So you lower down then site you ever
and not racing them site.
Speaker 2 (38:35):
Interesting. It's fascinating, especially having somebody from a different country
because I see the universality and a lot of these
things right, A lot of the causal factors are or
at least risk factors are universal. Amazing.
Speaker 4 (38:48):
You have a big issue here because we have like
we have light different back infome. You know, I don't
think that violence comes from poverty. You know, people think,
oh it just you know, it comes more for bad
income distribution when there are people who have everything and
(39:08):
people who don't have anything. And then really it's a
social trigger for all the other issues that we have.
Speaker 2 (39:17):
So forget what that's called in social psychology. Yeah, they
start comparing each other to different people. Yeah, you know
it's interesting too. I don't know if you've come across this.
I know we've got a few minutes left and we're
ready to wrap up and again folks talking to doctor
Feggi Ostrotski fe g g. Y Ostrotsky is os t
r os k Y. The book is Neuropsychology or Criminal Behavior.
(39:39):
Fascinating read doctor Ostrowski. You know, I've always wondered I
like to look at things multiple sides. It sounds like
you do as well. And I look at Japan and
I look at some of the other countries that at
a very low level of homicides, and I'm trying to
find out are there risk factors there at lower than ours?
What's going on? Have you seen anything? Oh?
Speaker 3 (40:01):
Yeah, you know.
Speaker 4 (40:02):
For example, it's like in Norway, in the Scandinagian they're
closing the jel systems because they're closing them. And it's
not because I said, oh, because they are like Scandinavia.
Speaker 3 (40:17):
No, they have a lot of.
Speaker 4 (40:18):
Immigrants, but they have a very nice social system of
rehabilitation in the people, so they teach them some skills,
and it's just like, but if your your mental set
is just like, let's put these terrible killers in jail
(40:38):
so they can broaden in jail, and we don't want
them to go out their backs off in society. So
that's your philosophy about what do we do with the
people who are in jail, how can we prevent it.
It's so, you know, there's a story that you have,
(40:59):
like a group of guys who live together and one
of the guys just get crazy and just break the
TV and just break the whole thing. And one of them,
so one of the guys who live with him said,
why don't we just kick them out.
Speaker 3 (41:13):
Of the house.
Speaker 4 (41:14):
We don't want to someone said, no, let's see what
happened to him and so and so you can have
different treatment for his behavior. So in Mexico, we're building lots.
Speaker 2 (41:28):
Of jails in the building building.
Speaker 3 (41:32):
You know, let's put them in jails. And I don't
think in the.
Speaker 4 (41:36):
United States they have a lot of preventive programs.
Speaker 3 (41:39):
And that's why you about.
Speaker 4 (41:41):
You know, they go in jails and they're like difficult
and uh.
Speaker 3 (41:46):
And then you go out. If you go out, you
go to the.
Speaker 4 (41:49):
Same environment and you don't have friends, you don't have
it's a primogenic environment and that doesn't help to get
so these standing up places, they don't theirselfs. They're closing
the jail system. And so I think it's an interesting lecture,
(42:10):
you know, a lesson not lecture.
Speaker 2 (42:12):
And one of these days maybe we'll have to do
is bring in some other forensic psychologist from around the
world and have a panel.
Speaker 4 (42:20):
But it's the philosophy of what do you do with
people who if somebody kill.
Speaker 3 (42:25):
Somebody of your family and if you like him, or they.
Speaker 4 (42:28):
Kidnap you and they called your ear, you don't want
him to go back into society, like you said, let
him just brought them in jail.
Speaker 3 (42:40):
And maybe that philosophy is not the.
Speaker 4 (42:42):
Right one because there are sixty percent of the people
who are getting jail and who get liberated, they will
go back into the jel system and getting worse.
Speaker 2 (42:54):
Is that the same for you in Mexico as well?
There's citizen right, right.
Speaker 4 (42:58):
We went the same y sixty percent or the people
who for meet crimes, they will go back and the
worst crimes.
Speaker 2 (43:06):
And is it the same in Mexico because I know
here they say about five to eight percent of the
criminals commit about sixty to fifty five percent of the crimes.
But the same as you are you finding that the
same as Mexico?
Speaker 4 (43:19):
Right? You know, it's just like maybe they just like
people who can just they just catch them, fort them,
but yes they're Yes.
Speaker 3 (43:28):
You can check them. And as I told you, I've seen.
Speaker 4 (43:31):
People who are like in these high security jails who
the judge said, this is the worst guy. And then
I interviewed some people who wear robbers and they said,
he's going out next week. Said my god. He said
were psychopaths that I've seen in my life. And I
didn't say anything because you know, I thought they're going
(43:52):
to liberate him. And they said, oh, you're not going
out of jail because you know the plumpy girl that
came and interview that you.
Speaker 3 (44:02):
Tell people.
Speaker 4 (44:04):
You know what I'm saying, I'm not getting into that system.
I was like allowed to study them. And he was
a drug dealer. He the mother will bring drugs into
the JEL system and he was going out and he
will do the worst thing ever and he.
Speaker 3 (44:25):
Was therefore Party Farne, you don't want to.
Speaker 4 (44:31):
So the thing is that you have to have people
who know about what psychopathy, what can we do, how
you organize the JAEL system and how can you recuperate?
And it's not just like giving because I don't know
how it. But in Mexico they teach them how to
do art and you know and do little boxes and
(44:54):
they are terrible.
Speaker 3 (44:56):
You will never buy that little art or boxes.
Speaker 4 (44:59):
You have to teach them as special skills and to
teach him emotional out of control where they go out
so they wouldn't kill, you know, everybody. So it's more
than just giving them skills.
Speaker 2 (45:13):
Yeah, it's interesting. I think I just spoke to I
think you might know doctor Bullington. It sounds he was
the guy. What he is the guy he's a professor,
he's a teacher, but he's a doctorate in education, I think.
But he's the one who teaches chess and he's been
working with chess in the prison systems. Because it's interesting
when we had the conversation, a lot of the skill
(45:34):
set that you need for chess requires the pre frontal
cortex because you need to be able to have working memory.
You have to control your impulses, your emotion regulation on
your playing, so you have a planning and anticipating all
this stuff. And it was interesting because he says they're
finding some success in the prison systems with the individual's
behaving better, so that, yeah, it's kind of interesting how
(45:55):
that would work.
Speaker 4 (45:58):
You know, I can see them Merrita but you need
more more than that, just an emotional the relation. Because
there's a study of this great chess player. She was
from Poland and she was like that great start and
they make this functional Mari and she just like, in
order to be so successful, he used the face area
(46:21):
of your brain that tech patterns and that's how she
was of good because you know she saw the patterns
and immediate you want. But that's the only skill that
you had. She didn't have any great queue or anything
like that. So I think that's a very small part.
You have to change the family setting, the social setting,
(46:43):
and the skills of outdoor revelation and I meaning applied
to go back.
Speaker 2 (46:52):
That's true too, a lot of work, doctor Estrowsky. I
don't think we're going to solve it today, even though
I can keep you here for another four hours. We
could talk all day, really fascinating stuff. Do you have
any websites or anything you want to send people to her?
Speaker 4 (47:04):
Well, well, I have my it's feggiosky at it's my
lap veg at the university to so they can.
Speaker 3 (47:16):
Check some of the pla there, and then I have
tweeter that I don't.
Speaker 2 (47:23):
I don't blame you I'm very easy. Yeah, it sounds
like you're doing great work again. Folks, is doctor Feggi Ostrotski.
It's f E d G y O S t r
O s k Y. I highly recommend the book Neuropsychology
Criminal Behavior check out. If you type in her name
of Google, you'll find out all the rest of her studies.
Doctor Strotski, thank you so much for doing this.
Speaker 3 (47:44):
Real nice to talk to you.
Speaker 2 (47:46):
Thank you everyone for listening. Make sure to share a
subscribe What that I like? Butdon you know what we're saying?
We like it.
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