INSIDE THE MIND OF THE PSYCHOPATH

Episode Transcript

(00:02):
Welcome to the Psychopath Podcast, apodcast that discusses everything about psychopathy. Here's
your host, doctor Carlos parting us. Today we're going to be exploring the

(00:30):
psychopath next door. That's right,we have with us doctor James Fallon.
He wrote the wonderful book The PsychopathInside, a Neurosciences personal journey into the
Dark side of the Brain. DoctorFallon is a professor of psychiatry and Human
Behavior at the University of California,Irvine. He's also an award winning neuroscientist
at the University of California Irvine aswell. So let's welcome home to the

(00:52):
circle, doctor Fallon, and welcometo the Circle, sir. College's good
to be here. Excellent. Thisis a fascinating topic we continue to discuss.
It seems everywhere in the media there'salways some mention of a psychopath.
The first thing I want to getout of the way some people that understand
can get a real reality check.Or is ninety percent of the population a
psychopath or is it one percent?What's going on here? About one percent

(01:15):
would be categorical cycle paths. Thatis, if you add up all of
the traits that are associated with cyclopaths. They get a score that's an arbitrary
score, but it's on the RobertHair test, which goes from zero to
forty. It's like twenty eight tothirty or above. That would be a
categorical psychopath. But there are peopleall over who have traits. They may

(01:38):
score a five or a ten,many people zero. They have no non
psychopathy at all. So it's notlike we all have it, but a
lot of people are, you know, borderline or near that. So what's
not a spectrum? Interesting? Well, there you go, because I know
that sometimes we have this what dothey call it behavioral economics, They call
it availability bias. I think themore you see it over and over again,

(02:00):
you think everybody's a psychopath. So, okay, we got that cleared
up. Now they think about yourbook. We've had other professors on talking
about psychopathy, and one of thethings that I liked about yours is you
took a different ang. Oh,you look at the neurological side of it.
So I guess the first question isare there any neurological differences between a
psychopath and a non psychopath? Well, there are more psychiatric traits than neurological,

(02:23):
but it's brain, so we'll sayit's neurological. You know, we'll
put those together, and there arethese various traits that almost everybody can agree
on, most psychologists and psychiatrists,even though there's no official thing that's accepted
as a psychopath or a sociopath.The term sociopath was gotten rid of in

(02:43):
nineteen sixty eight. But the traitsare there, and the question is how
do you put together the traits tocome up with something that's unique and different
than other personality disorders or you know, other sorts of neurological disorders. And
so that's where the argument is.But the traits that are involved are accepted

(03:05):
as being real traits and their personalitytraits to an extreme. Okay, so
you know, we all have asense of empathy, but the type of
empathy we have is different between us, right, And so what most people
want in a personal relationship, amate, family, extended family, they

(03:28):
want what's called emotional empathy. Whenthey're feeling what other people are feeling,
they know what you're feeling and theyfeel it inside themselves. That's called emotional
empathy. The other kind of empathy, it's broken down several ways, but
these two breakdowns are very useful.It's called cognitive empathy, and psychopaths can
have cognitive empathy. That is,they know what you're feeling, they don't

(03:52):
feel it themselves, and of coursethey can use this against you. It's
not like they don't understand what itis, but they do. Does not
resonate, so it doesn't really meananything to them. They understand it though.
But people with cognitive empathy psychopaths.But anybody who has this, maybe
somebody who does a lot of charitywork. They love all the children of
the world, they want to savethe world, and those kinds of people

(04:15):
like Gandhi and mother Teresa Nelson Mandela, of people like that certainly had cognitive
empathy. But if you listen totheir family and books written by their family
members, you didn't want to beclose to them. If you listen to
Nelson Mandela's daughter talking during the memorial, you know it's basically he's a great
man. He was, but youdon't want to be his daughter. And

(04:35):
the idea is not that he's abusive, but he's not maybe not connecting well.
The thing that people miss is thatemotional empathy. But that same person
can really care about the world andit's those people that they could do great
works. Yeah, a lot ofgreat stuff. And these are people we
really admire. But you don't usuallyget everything. You know. A lot

(04:56):
of these things are based on genetics, and when you get once set a
genetics, you get a whole setof these traits, but they're usually what
you don't get are things that arealso desirable. You get one or the
other. And I'll just give youan example. There there's one growth factor
in the brain. It's called bd NF. One form of BDNF.

(05:17):
If you get that gives you agreat memory. People with have great memory,
but they also have a lot ofanxiety. People with the other form
of this, the other alleal combinationof b DNF, they have really kind
of crummy memories. It's not sogood. But they're really mellow. These
are the people that you might thinkare like stoned all the time. They're

(05:38):
not stoned. The just mellow andthey okay, I forgot to do that.
You know, it's like come secumsideand so you know it's a normal
thing, right, So a lotof these things are are normal. But
if you take somebody and a keytrait is this lack of emotional empathy for
a psychopath, and you put itin with other traits, which is a

(05:58):
very extreme amount of manipulation. Sothey're cunning, they're manipulating. They're kind
of always on the make, notnecessarily to kill you or sex with you
or you know, take your money, but they they want you, they
want you in their world. It'sthe big cons it's a con artist,
right, and so the con artistwho they're con artists. You know,

(06:19):
if you're if you're a salesman,you're supposed to be manipulative. Everybody knows
that. So if it's in thecontext of your job, it doesn't count
as psychopathy because everybody knows you say, oh that, you know that salesman
exaggerated to me. You know thatterrible come on, you know you're in
the world, you know, soa lot of these things don't count because
it's just really part of what youdo. And everybody's supposed to know this

(06:40):
if you've been on the planet atall. But if you're you know,
if you're you know, if you'rea minister and you have that and you're
manipulative and it's a con well,imagine being that where you're a religious person
and do that, well, youcould say to yourself, I'm doing it
for their own good. You know, then it becomes questionable. I'm not
telling you the truth, I'm manipulatingyou, but I'm going to do it

(07:02):
for your own good. This iswhere the slope gets slippery. Right.
Let me ask you a quick questionhere. I hate to break a train
of five and you're entering the dangerzone now. But so do they rationalize
it? Sure? And are theygetting something out of it? One could
rationalize it, and in fact,to a psychopath, they don't care.
They simply don't care. If they'rerationalizing it. It's just part of the

(07:24):
kind. It just wouldn't It wouldn'tthe idea of feeling embarrassed or put it
being getting stressed, underlying or manipulating, And they don't get it. They
don't do that. So to askthem that, it's just they kind of
laugh inside it because it's not partof it. You know, once you
start feeling bad for what you do, if you feel you know, your
moral reason says I'm not going todo this, but I want to get

(07:46):
that from that person. That's notpsychopathy. A psychopath really doesn't care,
and they will do all those manipulationsand it doesn't register as a moral issue
at all. I'm just knowing JimJones here. Well, well, yeah,
the thing is there are a lotof people who seem to have it.
Now, he seemed to be apsychopath, and he's got a lot

(08:07):
of the traits, but unless youreally test them psychiatrically, it's very difficult
to say, because that part that'sa game, that part that they really
believe, that takes some while toanalyze. So it's easy to say that
person's a psychopath, and that person'sa psychopath. But sometimes they have other
disorders, right, and other sortsof motivations, and that's not psychopathy.

(08:31):
If you look at some of thedictators, some of them have what is
called intermittent explosive disorder. And peoplewho you think are psychopaths, they have
there all of a sudden, theyare a wild rampage. That's not psychopathy.
Also, people might say, well, the psychopaths they've seen maybe in
TV and film, are always sadistic, bloodthirsty, and sadism has almost nothing

(08:56):
to do with psychopathy. Many psychopathsare not at all. But we think
that, you know, we thinkthat is so it's not sadism, because
sadism is its own thing, andthere's a brain circuit that's associated with that.
Okay, So if you if youso, if you go to this
lack of remorse, lack of moralreasoning, you don't care about other people.

(09:18):
You look at other people as objectscompletely, as objects, objects to
use for your own fund or foryour own use. And that's really how
they are. Now you probably knowpeople who do that all the time.
I got a couple of pumps inmy head. Yeah, but they may
not have all the traits to bea full blown psychopath, but they may
have psychopath that traits. We'll giveyou another one. See, there are

(09:41):
these neative the second factor. There'stwo main factors for psychopathy. One is
a factor one. One is factortwo. And a lot of people are
familiar with the Robert Hare test,and that was mostly designed to test criminals,
you know, adult adolescent criminal firstmales and that females. That's a

(10:01):
criminal population. If you look atthe original view of psychopathy from Cleckley,
who wrote a book on it inthe nineteen forties and kept revising it,
that's more than was done in apsychiatric population. And there there's less of
this emphasis on criminality and anti socialbehavior, so that those are factor two

(10:24):
traits, and that's it's called impulsiveantisociality in this sort of aggressive narcissism.
It used to be malignant narcissism.And those are really negative traits that are
associated as antisocial personality disorder ASPD alot in common with those and also criminality.

(10:45):
But the factor one those traits aremore what are called the pro social
traits a pro social psychopath and thosetraits they're pro social in that they allow
people to navigate through society. It'sit's it's adaptive. It's it's a positive
adaptive thing, so they can manipulatetheir way through society without seeming or being

(11:07):
pernicious, you know, without beingable per se But it also is pro
social because there's a lot of charminvolved, and so this charming sort of
aspect to it and charisma. Youknow somebody that walks into the room and
they got that light around them.Well, some of those people are psychopaths.

(11:28):
But the thing is, and here'shere's a key thing. If you
look at the average voter, right, the average voter, uh looks at
that trait it's called fearless dominance.Now, fearless dominance is the first trait
in one of the psychopathy tests calledthe PPI Psychopathy Personality Inventory that's used in
the normal population, not just youknow, criminals. And fearless dominance is

(11:50):
that swagger that person walks into theroom. They got that light around,
a confident, a glib in doingmanagement to see it. And they they're
not they cut. There's so studiedthat they may not be slick. You
know when I said that, heyyou do a mass, I give me
fight, you know all that stuff. They are better than that. You
like them, and so people tendto like them. They you know,

(12:11):
Charlie Manson has this and even peoplewhen they look at when he seems a
little bit charming, that's it.It's whole fearless dominance. And it were
fearless and they could dominate. Theyalways looking to dominate the person they're with
or the group they're with. Wouldyou say Putin has that characteristic or oh
yeah, yeah, okay, yeah, he's kind of him Yeah, sure,
you know he has that and he'sand he's he's got the whole macho

(12:31):
thing going. But you know thatin a way, he's like a throwback
to eighteenth century Czarist Russia, youknow, where they always say the Assaris
police, and they all had that. And because I probably because of the
the sort of long history in Russiaof being beaten down all the time as
a society, they have this learnedhelplessness as a group. And they they

(12:54):
seem to like that kind of leadermore than other people do because he's a
guy that's gonna fight for you.He's a guy that's going to knock down
Genghis Khan. He's going to fightfor you, and we like him.
We like that he's got to he'svirile, probably as a sex with a
lot of women. He can bebeat people down. They you know,
some societies like that because they reallyfeel abused as a society, right,

(13:16):
so they like these tough guys thatare in our society, which is more
genteel in Western European and you knowAmerican North American society, it's more genteel.
That's got to be for us toaccept. It has to be tempered.
But the presidents of the United Stateswho have this, if you look
at them, the high level ofthe psychopathic trade called fearless dominance, that

(13:39):
full psychopathy just that trait. TeddyRoosevelt right at the top, FDR JFK
and the people who we consider leaders, so people that it's correlated with leadership.
So the people we vote for tendto have this high level of psychopathy.
So we're selecting psycho path leaders.Ready to ask, Yeah, I

(14:01):
mean so, in a way,it's a good thing, it's pro social,
but when they act, they gooverboard on it, and then we
don't like it all of a sudden, you know, when they lie and
we don't like it. We'd likewhen they lie to save us, but
we don't like it when they lieand it harms us. Hello. My
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(14:22):
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(15:09):
one one zero six zero seven formore information. Let me ask you this.
That's an interesting concept and I didn'tknow we're hitting this way the dangers
on again. What are we lookingfor when we vote for these people because
they have the fearless dominance? Arewe looking because we want that trade ourselves
or is it because of a paternalistickind of It depends on the personality type,

(15:33):
probably the person of the voter.And most people if you look at
it, you know Myers Briggs suretype Okay, well Myers Briggs terms.
Most people are these sps and sjas, and those people tend to like these
the swagger and the you know,tough guys sps. Are they the kind
of people work with their hands,athletes, things like that. They can

(15:54):
appreciate a tough guy and that kindof leadership. They want Pete Carroll up
until the list game. They wantPete Carroll, who's tough guy. But
it's smooth enough and everything, youknow, and uh, and so most
people like that, people who arefor this Myers Briggs type of analysis because
it's accessible, right, Myers Briggsis accessible regular personality theory. It's got

(16:17):
everybody scratching their heads, but it'suseful for this. So people are intuitive
thinkers, the nt people people likeyou and me. We tend not to
fall for that. We want athinker. We want to intellectually want somebody
who's fair and everything, and thoseare that's the libertarian streak and people and
they tend not to vote for thesepretty boys or these people who are have

(16:37):
all this charm and even though youknow it's bs in part people are intuitive,
you know, thinkers are not impressedby it, and they don't they
don't vote for that type of people. So they're in other parties for example,
yeah, so they're war Yeah.And so in the people who are
an s, the touchy feelies,it's whoever seems like, we're such a
nice guy. He could be myson, it could be my father,

(17:00):
such as sweet my brother, andso people fall for these traits and the
ability to project that as a leader. Depending on the business year and if
it's politics. Uh it matters,So you want to be sweet enough,
but be tough and an appeal touh, you know, those other traits
and not necessarily being an intuitive thinker, which is to most people boring.

(17:22):
It's the you know, it's thescientist, the writer and everything. It's
like it's a whole hum type ofperson. So most people tend not to
be elected, so we choose thesebigger than life. Oftentimes megalomaniacs people are
narcissistic. It looks like confidence,it's leadership. Has that a main characteristic
because we're looking kind of we're lookingat the psychopath and the general population.

(17:45):
We've done other shows with the criminalsand all that, but so do they
have to have that megalomaniac kind ofpersonality in the general population? Is that
like, well, the yeah,for a psychopath, it's narcissism. They
all have a level of narcissism,and in what would be a megalomania,
they know it's true and good andright, you don't very confident of it.
You know, there's a type ofnarcissist who is a narcissist because they

(18:07):
don't believe they're all that hot.But there's a narcissist who really believes they're
hot and you want that convincing person, and that trait is more along the
psychopathic spectrum that that positive narcissism.It's believable because most people can read,
if they really care, they canread people. They have tells. When
somebody really believes that they've got thegoods, they know what's right. You

(18:30):
can tell that they're confident, soat least you know that they're not bling.
Doesn't mean they're right, but youknow, you know that they're not
lying. So people like that.It's is it comorbidity then with narcissism,
Yeah, yeah, I definitely,yeah, Yeah, there's comorbidity with them.
Interesting anything else that it plays alongwith that, Well, there are
many of these with narcissism. They'renot with the psychopathies. I don't psychoplist,

(18:51):
it's out of there. They kindof have antisocial personality, but it's
not really the psychopathy. So isthere anything else, Well, they're behavioral
things. They tend to have alot of short term relationships. Somebody's married
four times. Just because you're marriedfour times doesn't mean that you're psychopath.
But you find a psychopath they havea lot of transit relationships. Now there

(19:15):
are other types that do also,the people who either love you or hate
you. They go back and forth. Borderline personality types, right, I
mean, those are very dangerous people. And that's a group that also murders
at a high rate. But they'renot psychopaths, but they share they're co
morbid like you're saying, and so. But those are the basic traits.

(19:36):
So usually there's a lot of sexualpromiscuity and psychopaths the transit jobs in transit
and jobs and everything. But theones that are really successful, the ones
that get are not in prison bythe time they're teens in the early twenties
because a lot of them call it. But the smart ones who have not
been beaten up, you know,they don't have other brain damage and really

(19:59):
can navigate. Who are smart andknow how to they know how to modulate
their behaviors, and they know whatpeople believe and want to believe, and
they will modify their behavior very cleverly, so they'll suppress those kind of bs
things and just play you know,they learn what people are thinking. They're
very good at reading your mind andyour emotions and then mirroring that and playing

(20:21):
off it. That's they're very goodat it, the smart ones. The
other ones. A lot of fullbone psychopaths are you know, they are
drug abuse, alcohol, that's beenbeaten up, they got brain damage,
they're goofballs. You know, theycan't really organize their behavior long enough to
hold the job. Say so,it's not necessarily they can't hold the job.

(20:41):
But a lot of them who arepsychopaths have these other sorts of damage
because of the trouble they've gotten intobecause they were beaten as a two year
old by their father or uncle orsomebody. And so, you know,
no one of these things will makeyou a psychopath. They're the common traits.
But so the DSM four it's it'sit's like a it's almost like a

(21:04):
field guide, like a tax taxonomicfield guide. And you're looking at something
flying around. You say, it'sgot wings, right, it's got wings,
and it trips a little bit,makes the noise, and it eats
other things and it flies and everything. It's a bird. He said,
well, no, you didn't.There's not enough definition there. It was
a moth or a back, youknow. And so there's ways of mixing
all these functions and the anatomy withwings and being able to fly and making

(21:27):
tripping noises and everything, and youend up with the wrong diagnosis A great
example. Yeah, So that's oneof the problems is as a taxonomic guide,
it can fail, and that's whyit's still not accepted as a thing
officially in DSM five. Now,this one, I know because you're you
just look at the no the neurologicaldifferences. If you talk the neurological differences

(21:48):
of a psychopath, did you seeanything there's anything different than the prefront or
coordtex. There is anything different thereon migdoor the ones you know. I
happened to just come into this bymistake, really partially by mistake. For
years, from the early nineties onward, my colleagues would ask me to look
at pet scans positive on a missiontomography scans. A lot of people use

(22:14):
fMRIs now instead of pets skin.Pet scans are a little bit more expensive,
but they're primo in terms of thequality what they can tell you.
And they were asking me to lookat pet scans and it turns out that
it's like really bad killers, murders, serial killers. And I was looking
at them over the years, butit wasn't until about two thousand and five,
two thousand and six that I gota whole bunch of these, and
then looking at all of these murders, I asked, the people who sent

(22:37):
them to me, don't tell mewho they are. Mix them with normal
scans, mix them with schizophrenics,depression. So I don't know. I
don't you know as a scientist,You know what I know is that,
well, here's a murder. Tellus what you see. Because even scientists
we'd like to make up stories.You can't help me like narratives. Human
mind loves a story, and ifyou know going in what it is,
then you make up the story.Even if you fight, it's something that

(23:00):
you fight, and you get intoa little magical thinking about things, unless
it's done blindly. When I didthat, and I analyzed all these over
months, a pattern popped out.So even though all of these the people
who were a kind of murder,they had very similar damage, but they
had extra damage. You could tellsomebody who was head over the head or

(23:21):
something. But if you looked atthe common core, what was common to
all of them. What they hadwas their limbic system, they're so called
social brain or emotional brain, wasturned off and that's the part of the
brain. It makes a big loopin your brain like this from the side.
It's called the limbic loop. Yeah, it's like a c and it

(23:44):
starts out connected to the orbital cortexand venture medial prefrontal cortex, which is
just the cortex above the eyes.It's that part of the prefrontel lobe.
It's at the bottom and toward themidline, and that's the part of the
frontal lobe that inhibits behavior. Andtherefore we mostly think of morality is things
you don't do. You know,to be a moral person. They don't

(24:06):
say do you do good? Worksfor most people is did you do anything
bad? Because we tended to findmorality it was a good person way,
they may not do anything. Youknow, it's kind of an it's like
being a virgin who doesn't care aboutsex, you know what what so what
and so yeah, there has tobe some skin in the game, so
to speak, for it to count. And so uh, you know,
we usually think of morality as inhibitingbehavior, but if you look at it

(24:29):
more, there's there's more to it. But in this case, it's inhibiting
behavior, and therefore it's associated withmorality and moral reasoning, you know.
So so it's that little you know, it's that little a little guy or
girl in your head that's going,that's not a nice thing to do,
you know, And that's usually associatedwith this orbital cortex. And then it
continues on into this what's called singulatecortex, which used to be called a

(24:53):
fornicuet gyrus for some reason, andthat was gotten rid of years ago except
in some matter schools. And thatsingulate gyrus is that that's the border between
your neocortex kind of your thinking incold cognition, all the parts of your
cortex connect with it, and thenthat connects with this emotional brain. So

(25:15):
it's the window to the emotional brain. And it kind of is the area
that chooses well from day to day. As you're looking down at this,
you may be looking for an errorin your notes, or looking for something
to focus on when you're asking aquestion. You may be thinking of your
own family, and it may bean emotional thing that's a different part of
this singular cortex switching around, okay. And then and then that continues into

(25:38):
the hippocampal area where that works withthe amigdala for emotional memory. And then
the amignal itself, which is peoplewould say it's kind of like your id
it dry, you know, eatingthree f's, it's it's it's what is
it? Well, it's fear andfeeding and sexual reproduction. So and and
that's where a number of things occur. But they drive very fundamental behaviors that

(26:03):
we need to exist as a person, you know, and as a species.
So it's very very important species wise. But the thing is these two
areas, this orbital cortex and theamygdala, they inhibit each other, so
they're always in the check and balance. So they inhibit. They're supposed to
be in balance. It's a yinyang thing in balance. And then it's

(26:25):
the normal person, you know,the normal person or you know, the
average moral person, that person undercertain circumstances that are socially and morally okay,
if you will, they will kill. Right. Killing is not an

(26:45):
evil thing by itself. If somebodyis attacking your child, you're going to
kill your child, it's not immoralto kill that person. Sure to defend
it. You know, there's atime and a place for everything. And
this is like a biblical thing,right, And this is something that goes
back thousands a year. Is knowledgeand wisdom that all these things are.
You know, they're neither good norbad, but they have to be done
at the right time. And that'show we define morality. And if you

(27:07):
do it by the rules, thenwe call it ethics. So that balance
between the orbital venturemedian prefront cortex andthe amigdala it allows one to do things
at the appropriate time. It's appropriatetime to have sex, appropriate time to
eat. For me, it's likeall day long. But you know,

(27:30):
we have an innate knowledge of morality. You don't have to be told growing
up that it's immortal to kill yourown species. Right in many things,
like the innateness of language, it'snot things you have to teach. But
in people whose orbital cortex never developedin utero or in early life, they
have no sense of what morality is. There's almost like a blind person who

(27:51):
never saw. There are blind peoplewho lose sight when they're ten years old,
but they remember blue and red.Somebody who loses their orbital cortex either
because of a tremendous amount of geneticsuppression of that or more likely epigenetic suppression
those genes that are associated with thesebehaviors when they're locked in for your life

(28:12):
because of early abuse or abandonment.You know, from the time of birth
for two or three years, avery sensitive time. That's when you know,
your frontal up is opened up tothe world, and so the social
brain. As a child, ifyou come out and you see love,
you'll probably be a loving person whenyou grow up. And so how your

(28:34):
genes may be modified because you haveyour genes, but what's turned on and
off, that's your epigenum. Butif you're abused or abandoned, it's a
hostile world and it probably sets yourbrain, that social brain in order for
your own survival to be hostile.And you grow up when you're you know,
a teenager or an adult as avery hostile person. So psychopaths,

(28:55):
yeah, they have. Yeah,And so what they have is almost all
of them and everyone I've ever youknow, studied or looked at that they
all had early abuse or abandonment andmany lost you know, very early on
one parent and the abuse by theother parent. Almost everyone you're gonna watch
out, you know, even inTed Bundy's case. Once you look deeper,
we'll say, I know everything wasnormal, but when you really look

(29:18):
deeper, you see the abuse,and you know some aunt will say this
and some friend will say that's butthey'll protect each other, you'll protect your
tormentor it's like a Stockholm effect fromsome of them. I read his biography.
Yeah he was. He wasn't thatprotected at the end. They No,
No, not at the end.But so, but they all have
this this early abuse and probably sowe don't know for sure because there's not

(29:41):
enough been analyzed. So it's stilla theory that there's a certain group of
genes that are associated with traits andwe kind of know that, but how
those are put together and changed byearly abuse at a certain time effects a
brain pattern of this social brain intoan abnormal sort of response. And then

(30:03):
when a person grows up in allthese areas of the brain mature as a
right after adolessent, you've got apsychopath. Any one of those things is
not enough. It's like those threethings have to be brought together. The
brain pattern, the circuitry, whichcould be changed in utero, it could
be primed in uterol, the setof genes that affect these behaviors, and

(30:25):
then early abuse or abandonment. It'slike a three legged stool, and those
three things happening interacting early on inlife that seems to be the trigger.
Those are the ones that can createthese seconds. Yeah, now this is
now, we've got only up twominutes left. But this is the criminal
psychopath or anybody who falls into apsychopathic Well, all these cycle paths that

(30:45):
have been looked at, criminal andnon criminal look like they have this basic
pattern of the brain, that partof the brain turned off, and they
can have other sorts of problems.But there really haven't been a lot of
genetic analyzes done on these people.So a lot of this is still theory.
It's what we can put together,patch together into a theory now.

(31:06):
But you know, not too manypeople, not too many groups, want
to spend a whole lot of moneyfinding out about these guys. They want
them dead, and so it's hardto really do research, even though it's
so important for us to learn frombullying that mayhem in our streets, in
our society for terrorists, and youknow, that are really becoming important,
you know, seeing what triggers that. Because not every kid is vulnerable.

(31:29):
There's maybe only a quarter of thekids are genetically vulnerable to this early abuse
that will really become a psychopath.Others they may be angry more like a
sociopath. They're not genetically essentially apsychopath, but they may have a chip
on their shoulder, somebody may haveabused them, and they're going to get
even with the world. And soa lot of people who carry out awful

(31:51):
acts may not be psychopaths at all, but they're mad people and they haven't
got along well and they're getting evenwith the world. So there's a logic
to that. And I think wehave to understand this, not just to
understand bullying the schools and the familyand what happens in our streets, but
it's gonna be a big deal inthe next five, ten fifty years.
I completely agree. I hope youfound that as exciting as I did.

(32:14):
That was amazing stuff. Thank youso much, doctor Fallon for joining us
today on the circle. Here's thebook once again, The Psychopath Inside Inside.
You definitely want to get the bookright here, you can get it,
doctor Fallon. Thank you once again, Thank you everybody for joining us.
Remember our moto is simple. Whereverthere's psychology involved, even in the
psychopath's mind, we're there. Seeyou next time, everyone