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May 14, 2025 • 60 mins
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The Last of Us S2 E5 | Feel Her Love

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Transcript

Episode Transcript

Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:05):
Hey everyone, welcome back to the podcast. We are here
breaking down the last of us Season two, episode five,
Feel Her Love. I'm your host, Tamara, and I'm glad
you've hit the play button today. We have a lot
to talk about. Please follow us on your favorite social
media platforms. The link to find both me and Lisa
are in the show notes. We're all over the place.

(00:26):
We just click around. If you like what you hear,
hit that subscribe button. You won't want to miss a
single episode as we journey through this season, joining me
as show co host Lisa. Welcome back, Lisa.

Speaker 2 (00:37):
Hey Tamara, Hey everyone. My name is Lisa Orban. I
am an author. I am also the founder of Indies
United publishing house, and I love all things pop culture.

Speaker 1 (00:46):
Okay, so if you're new to the podcast, we are
laid back in our few style, right, Lisa.

Speaker 2 (00:50):
Oh, absolutely, Tamor. This is a conversation, not a dissertation.

Speaker 1 (00:54):
Right. No scene by scene breakdowns here. We jump around
in a huge boiler alert for everything through yesterday episode.
The only spoilers you won't find here are from the game,
as we didn't play it.

Speaker 2 (01:05):
It did not, but my boyfriend's telling me things.

Speaker 1 (01:10):
If it's in the future, keep it to yourself.

Speaker 2 (01:15):
I am gonna say one thing about this from from
the video games m hm, because we know they have
a story art going on with the season, uh, and
they are going to follow it to the end. But
the thing of it is is apparently there are four
primary endings that they can choose from.

Speaker 1 (01:33):
Mm hmmm.

Speaker 2 (01:34):
So even if you played the video games, we still
have nobody has any idea except for the writers, how
which ending or they're going to pick to finalize this
mm hmm.

Speaker 1 (01:47):
Interesting. Okay, well, I'm curious to see. So if you
know how both endings are, do you know what they are?

Speaker 2 (01:54):
I know the four endings?

Speaker 1 (01:55):
Oh, four endings? Okay, hmmm. Do you have a guest
with telling us you have a guess already?

Speaker 2 (02:02):
You know? I don't know, because here's the thing. Any
of the endings that you pick, they all have consequences.
Nobody gets an absolute happy ending in this series.

Speaker 1 (02:13):
As it shouldn't.

Speaker 2 (02:15):
As it shouldn't. Honestly, I would probably be more upset
if it if it gave everyone a happy ending and
tied it up in a bow.

Speaker 1 (02:21):
Mm hmm.

Speaker 2 (02:23):
But they all have equal plausibility. With the way this
is going right now. So any of the four endings
I could see, and I don't know that I would
be any more disappointed in any of them.

Speaker 1 (02:33):
M Okay, interesting, Well how'd you think about What did
you think about this episode?

Speaker 2 (02:42):
I should say that I thought it was interesting?

Speaker 1 (02:47):
Okay, is that good or bad?

Speaker 2 (02:49):
It's good. I mean I did enjoy the the I
did enjoy this episode. I kind of the part of
it that I kinda, I kind of liked was so
last episode we got to see how bad the military
guys could be to the religious people mm hmm. And
this this week, we got to see how bad the

(03:10):
religious people could be to the military guys. So we've
got this so we now we can really see that.
I mean, this is both sides are doing horrific things
to each other.

Speaker 1 (03:25):
Yeah, I mean we kind of got a hint of
that last time, but it's really hit home this Dad.

Speaker 2 (03:33):
We're seeing the the extremes on both sides. So this
isn't a this this isn't a one sided conflict. And
and and and I was obviously very wrong because when
we were first introduced to this group, the way that
they were talking and acting, I thought that they were
a little more Yeah, and but what they were saying

(03:56):
and doing did kind of indicate that they were. But
now we can see that, I mean, any adherence to
any philosophy to the extreme ends up with bad things.
And that's and it doesn't really matter what it is.
Any extreme is bad, and we're seeing that on a

(04:18):
secular side, in a religious side. Both sides have decided
to go with their worst angels and go at each other,
and neither side is willing to give ground to the other.
And honestly, I don't even know what they're fighting over,
because the world is a really empty place right now,

(04:39):
so they could everyone could just all move on.

Speaker 1 (04:42):
And as of now, they have not shared with us
what the reason is, so I don't know if it
even really matters at this point. I guess they're fighting
and that's it. I guess it would be nice to
know a little bit of history there, but I don't
think we're going to get it. We have what two
episodes left, right.

Speaker 2 (05:02):
I think this is more of a hat Fields versus
McCoy situation. You know, where the conflict has been gone
on for so long, it has become so generational. How
it started and why it started no longer matters. What
only matters is that the conflict continues and one side.

(05:25):
Each side obviously believes that they can quote unquote win.
But what that win prize is I don't think anyone
could define at this point.

Speaker 1 (05:35):
Yeah, well, someone's gonna go down. I think at the
end of the season, I hope, or maybe they're just
strong enough on both sides that they'll just continue on
even after Ellie reaches her goal. You know, maybe it'll continue.
Who knows.

Speaker 2 (05:51):
Well. We also have the added element now that the
spores in certain situation and locations are now airborne.

Speaker 1 (06:00):
Yeah, and so that takes the risk to a whole
new level than it was before, because if it gets
out into in the world at large, that's bad, very.

Speaker 2 (06:13):
Bad, very bad. Yeah, And I mean I guess, well,
if it did, we'd find out if there were a
few more immune people. I mean, statistically speaking, Ellie is
the one they know about, but that doesn't mean that
she's the only one.

Speaker 1 (06:30):
Yeah, I agree. I mean, if it can happen once,
it can happen twice or three times.

Speaker 2 (06:35):
And I'm not saying that, I'm not saying that there'd
be you know, dozens and dozens of them, but it
is possible that Ellie is not the only one. It's
just the only one they know about. Uh, because almost
with with any disease, there's there's always going to be

(06:59):
somebody that is resistant for whatever reason, you know, just
roll of the genetic dice, someone wins.

Speaker 1 (07:07):
Yeah hmm.

Speaker 2 (07:10):
But then again, the unfortunate thing is is while it
does protect her from being turned, it doesn't protect her
from being mauled exactly.

Speaker 1 (07:22):
Like, which was I guess the whole Okay, so the
scene where you know, she decides to, I guess, save
Dina and she was gonna draw the you know, the
smart ones away. Yeah, you can get bit a bunch
of times, but you could still die from your injuries exactly.

(07:43):
So girl, without her friend coming at the last minute
to rescue him, they both would be dead, right period.

Speaker 2 (07:53):
Right, and even and Elliett admitted that they were going
great until they weren't.

Speaker 1 (07:59):
Till they weren't. Yeah, until they weren't. And I honestly,
she wasn't gonna admit it until he kind of like
barked at her, until what you know, he had to
like put her on the spot. She wasn't gonna just oh,
thank you for coming no, hell no, He's pushed her
into admitting that they were fucked pretty much.

Speaker 2 (08:17):
Yeah, oh yeah, you know, and I love that until
we weren't. Yeah, it was fine until yeah, and you know,
and really the risk that they both took, So it
wasn't just Ellie at this point, but it was also Dina,
because Ellie was willing to turn around.

Speaker 1 (08:39):
M hm.

Speaker 2 (08:40):
She had that realization, what are we doing?

Speaker 1 (08:42):
Mm hm.

Speaker 2 (08:44):
You know, we can we have a baby on the way,
we can turn around. We can turn around right now.
And I think she would have at that point, she
would have turned around without regret.

Speaker 1 (08:56):
See, I don't think that's what she meant. I think, Dina,
you can turn around. I will continue.

Speaker 2 (09:03):
Maybe, and you might be right on that, but I
think at that you know, at that point, she was
willing to make that you know, that concession. M hm.
Dina was the one that said no and told her
story and and she's like, and I would have gone
to the ends of the earth to avenge my to

(09:24):
avenge them if I had not killed them.

Speaker 1 (09:25):
So I get.

Speaker 2 (09:26):
Yeah, And I think that that reinforced to Ellie, all Right,
I'm doing the right thing, or maybe not the right thing,
but I'm doing my thing.

Speaker 1 (09:36):
Yeah, I think it gave her, you know, a little
bit of backup. Like you said, it's reinforced that it
may not be the best thing, but it's going to
be the right thing for her and it's going to
make her be able to move on after she's done this. Right, So,
I don't know, we'll see. I she's so risky, you

(09:58):
know what I'm saying, Like, she takes so much many risks,
which Dina points out right, she calls it crazy and
she's like, you're a risk taker. You do wild things,
but that's who you are. And again it was even
brought up before when I think Tommy says that Allie
and Joel are two sides of the same coin. Essentially,

(10:18):
they're both that way, right. So, I don't know, maybe
or not she's Ford.

Speaker 2 (10:26):
Right, I don't think. I don't think Joel turned her
into the person she is, but I think he helped
define the person that she is. She was already a
risk taker. We knew this before she ever got fit,
before she ever met Joel. With her backstory, she was

(10:47):
a risk taker. You know, she was sneaking out of
the school, she was doing things that she knew she
wasn't supposed to do. She was going to place and
she knew she wasn't supposed to go. Yeah, and she
was bringing other people with her, Yeah, she yes. So.
So Ellie being this way is not because of Joel.

(11:08):
It's despite of Joel. He helped hone her abilities to
make her a better predator, so to speak, but he
did not turn her into one.

Speaker 1 (11:21):
No, he did not. She was already that way, which
is honestly probably why they jelled so hard, you know,
like exactly like it is with like you know you're
gonna find someone like you.

Speaker 2 (11:33):
Right, Joel and Ellie found within the other person a
reflection of themselves that they could relate to. And I
think both of them had, in the larger scheme of things,
had often found it very hard to connect and relate
to people. For that reason, Joel had been very much
a loner, and as much as she brought other people

(11:55):
with her, she had still been very much a loner.
But the two of them together they didn't have, you know,
they found that connection with each other. They could see
that reflection of themselves, of themselves and the other person,
and that made I think that's what that that is
what formed the basis of their relationship.

Speaker 1 (12:16):
Yeah, yeah, and them being that way was also the
thing that broke down their relationship to as we're gonna
see soon what happened exactly, because as we found out,
you know, toward the end of this episode, and we
did speculate she knew what happened. Yeah, Ellie knew.

Speaker 2 (12:39):
And that was part of the break between the two
of them, what was causing.

Speaker 1 (12:44):
Right, So now eventually, you know, hopefully we get to
see exactly how she found out what happened and what
was the trigger for the relationship kind of falling apart.
And that's the implication. Well, it seems like that's what
we're going to get how this episode ended, right. I
think next week we're gonna get probably mostly flashback, I hope.

Speaker 2 (13:07):
Right. I watched the previews for next week, and and
it was all about her and Joel and you know,
their relationship. So and you and I had had wondered
if we were going to see Joel anymore, and you
and I had both said probably not, and we were wrong.

Speaker 1 (13:24):
Yeah, he gets one more episode, and I think I'm
pretty sure he's done after that, though, I mean, we
need to know the history, and I get while we're
gonna see him and hopefully it hits the way they want,
it's a hit for us. Yeah, I hope it's good.
I think it could be. They've been doing a good
job so far.

Speaker 2 (13:43):
So yeah, they have and and they've been They've done
a good job with the balance of things, I think, so, uh, I.

Speaker 1 (13:52):
Know, they almost got me, they almost got me. So
when they were in that I guess theater or whatever,
and Ellie goes to the auditorium and finds the guitar.
The instantly thing, the instant thing I was thinking was
please God, not another fucking song. Please not another song.
And then she sits down, it starts playing. I'm like, no,

(14:12):
and then she stops. I'm like, thank god. I'm like,
we already got like, I understand what she's doing. I
understand what they're doing. But they were smart to cut
it short. We already got her singing. We are there
was no one in front of her. We didn't need
to see her singing another song, so they cut it.
Thank goodness, because I was gonna talk so much smack
if they had her sing another freaking whole song on

(14:34):
this show.

Speaker 2 (14:35):
Well, and I think part of that was so we've
had the acknowledgement that Ellie is she's the violent, reckless one,
but we also very much saw Dina being the methodical planner.
And she said as much, No, this is this is
not your thing. You cannot help me. You go do

(14:57):
you right now? You go off, and you know, will
need you later for the violent stuff. I'm going to
do the planning stuff, and and and so they you know,
I did kind of like that because without the violence,
Ellie was kind of lost, you know, without the the
need for immediate action. She was just I think that

(15:18):
was part of it. She was just kind of aimlessly
wandering through this building, going, I don't know what to
do with myself, you know, I have nothing to kill,
you know what I.

Speaker 1 (15:27):
Mean, just kind of walking around, investigating things, just burning time,
while you know, Dina figures it out right.

Speaker 2 (15:35):
And I think that was you know, so they each
they each have their role, I guess in this relationship,
and and they do actually compliment each other pretty nicely.
And if you go back to season one, Joel's girlfriend,
I can't remember her name right now, but she was
like that. She was their planner. She was the methodical one.
She was you know, she wasn't the risk taker. That

(15:58):
was Joel, and they worked well to you know, they
did really well together because of that. And you can
kind of see now this reflection with Dina and and
and Ellie, you know, is in a reflection like that relationship.
So there's a lot of symmetry going on.

Speaker 1 (16:15):
Yeah, I think also to kind of add to that,
you know, Dina seems like the caretaker of Ellie, right,
not just the organizer, but the caretaker of her. And actually,
for for once, I guess that role flips. It flips
for a moment when you know, Ellie decides I'm just

(16:36):
gonna save you. Do what I say. Like, they don't
even argue, you know, when they're in that you know
room with all those infected, She's like, go in there,
shut the shut the gate. You know, I could be bitten.
You know, Dina Dina man questions, she just did what
she was told right right.

Speaker 2 (16:56):
Well, and you can kind of see that their roles
do kind of flip back and forth again. When it
comes to the planning and the uh putting together of things,
you know, that's Dina, Dina plans and but when it
comes to acting, you know that that's Ellie Ellie is

(17:18):
the instigator. She is you know, she is the protagonist,
and she's the one that will step forward for that.
And it's not that Ellie. It's not that Dina can't
be violent, because obviously she can be. You know, when
she was eight years old, she killed the soldier and
she's like, and he had surprise in his eyes, you
know that this eight year old kid shot him. And

(17:42):
so again it's not that Dina doesn't have the capacity
towards violence, but she she is not as predisposed to
it as say Ellie is.

Speaker 1 (17:51):
Well, you know, they each have their strengths, right, right,
and I think Ellie can also just like you said,
Dina has a you know, can do two things and once,
so can Ellie. And I think she has the capability
to plan and to be kind of thoughtful. But she
doesn't have to win. Dina's there, and vice versa. You know,
when you know, miss strong arm over here can take

(18:13):
care of it. I don't have to do it, So
I'm gonna let her do it.

Speaker 2 (18:15):
Right, And they do actually compliment each other very well,
and I think that's part of why they have gotten
along so very well, because they both have their strengths
and they both know what the other's weaknesses is and
they can both work within that because one person's weakness
is another person's strength. And in every relationship, you can't

(18:37):
all be the same thing, or all you'll do is fight.
You have to have you have to have that complimentary
and they do compliment each other pretty well. And I
think part of the reason why Dina and the one
guy could not stay together is because they were too similar.
They were both planners, they were both methodical, they were

(18:58):
both careful, they were both you know, they were both
the same person essentially.

Speaker 1 (19:03):
Well. Jesse definitely is a rule follower, that's for sure. Yeah,
so yeah, I could see that. I could see that
being maybe why she's not as attracted to him, and
but she was attracted enough to get pregnant by him.

Speaker 2 (19:19):
But she also said that, you know, part of her
the excitement of Ellie, you know, the the unpredictability is
something that she very much likes about Ellie. And you know,
when when she's with what's his name, it's very predicted.
She knows what's gonna happen. It's very predictable. It's very reliable,

(19:40):
and reliable and predictable can be very boring.

Speaker 1 (19:43):
You know, it can't get boring. That's why some people
like the bad boys, right or bad girls in this case,
it's fun. But guess what that gets old sometimes?

Speaker 2 (19:54):
So and which is again why she I think there's
been this back and forth, you know, and why she
goes back to him and leaves him and goes back
to him and leaves him. And you know, we all,
we all at times need stability and comfort and consistency,
and at other times we need excitement and you know, danger,

(20:17):
just to you know, spice things up a little bit. Yeah,
and so, yeah, I could see where there would have
been some confusion for her since she likes both boys
and girls, and they both were giving her something she needed.

Speaker 1 (20:33):
So I mean, do you think and I'm right at
the border, I'm right at right on the line of
thinking it's too much? Do you think the relationship stuff
is kind of almost too much? I've seen some reviews
where people are really being critical of all the looks

(20:54):
and the fawning and the you know, I love you,
and it's like, you know, this is almost too much
for some people. And I think right now they're riding
the line. They're really close.

Speaker 2 (21:07):
It's I'm not saying it too much, because I mean,
think about it. Every time you've ever been in a
brand new relationship, you know, especially if it's going really well,
you tend to make the people around you who are
in more established relationships naus.

Speaker 1 (21:25):
Yeah, like y'all make me sick. Get out of here
right for me?

Speaker 2 (21:30):
You know, you know, you're with the person you've been
with many for say a decade, and you're watching someone
who's been with someone for two weeks.

Speaker 1 (21:38):
Yeah, and they're.

Speaker 2 (21:39):
All lovey dovey, and you know, the eyes and everything
else because it's new and it's shiny, and it gives
you the you know, you get the little butterflies, and
you know, the brain chemistry is there, yeah, and that's
how humans are wired. And you're with the person you've
been with for ten years, going, damn, they just make
me sick. We were like that, you know.

Speaker 1 (21:59):
But this is the thing though, See to me, I'd
like to categorize things a little bit. And so you
know how sometimes when something is, you know, a thriller apocalyptic,
sometimes people throw a romance on that, and sometimes they don't.
I'm just wondering, how close are we for this to
become a romance is a subgenre on this show.

Speaker 2 (22:21):
I think I do know that Dina and Ellie's relationship
does follow the video game.

Speaker 1 (22:29):
Okay, which I don't know what's in store for them.
But you know, as I said last week, I feel
like now that she's found this love, it might be
taken from her. So but I don't know if that's
for a fact, because I don't know what's going to
happen in the game.

Speaker 2 (22:44):
But and like I said, I don't know exactly how
they end, and I don't know exactly the options because
again I didn't investigate, but I do know that there
are four there are four basic endings, and there are
some sub endings that can also happen because it's a

(23:04):
video game and they give you options. And and my
boyfriend is the type of person who will play the
game to get all of the endings and all the
side quests and get all of the little things. So
he didn't he just casually drops things. But like I said,

(23:27):
because there are so many endings and ways that this
could play out, because the you know it, the game
is you know, I choose your own adventure type thing,
and so I, even knowing what I know, still doesn't
tell me how where this will go, because there are
still multiple off ramps where we're.

Speaker 1 (23:47):
Going, right. Well, I'm curious to see what they end
up with, because literally, if the next episode is mostly flashback,
I'm not gonna say the whole thing is splashback. I
didn't watch the preview, so I just kind of watched
the show, watch the after, you know, the little after
with the showrunners and directors and this stuff like that.

(24:09):
But I did not go any further. So I'm assuming
it's at least mostly fat flashback. If not, all that
means we have the finale left, right, so there's not
a lot of time to get this sorted.

Speaker 2 (24:25):
Well, I mean, we do know for as much as
she cares about Dina, and she knows Dina is injured. Okay,
she still chose she had the option to go find Dina.
She knows where Dina's head headed, and she could have
ended that way. Yeah, but she chose to go after
Annie or not Annie.

Speaker 1 (24:46):
Abby. Yeah, Abby, which we knew because they just got finished.
You know, Dina just got finished hyping her up to
I understand what you're doing, right, and we she just said, oh,
she's just got a knee injury. She's fine. She probably
just said it's fine. They got right. She has to
trust that Jesse got her out right. She doesn't know.

Speaker 2 (25:10):
She doesn't know. And and again, you know, she had
she had a choice to make, and she could have
chosen to go make sure that Dina was okay and
make a better plan. But instead she's like, I'm here,
you know.

Speaker 1 (25:27):
Yeah, She's like, I'm right here, it's right there. I
might as well just go take care of this, all right.

Speaker 2 (25:33):
And you know, and again I think she was also
afraid that if she went back, and if if Dina
was hurt worse than she thought, or that between Dina
and Jessie trying to talk her out of doing this
after the hype up speech. She made a choice, and
the choice was she She chose revenge over love.

Speaker 1 (25:55):
She did, And I guess we're going to see how
that works out for her, because she has also done
something we've never seen her do. We've seen her shoot people,
you know. But she also kind of turns into this
when she finds what's the girl's name? What was the
girl's name? If she was saying for yeah something, whatever

(26:16):
her name was, she was, you know, in the infirmary
and when she finds her, Yeah, the one who held
her down. She finds her. Of course, they go through
this little chase, run and chase game. They end up
on the sub levels. They end up on B two
or whatever. I know. She's like, did I though? And

(26:41):
she's like, Oh no, you're You're the person they're talking about.
You're a veil. I'm like, oh god. But Ellie turns
a corner when she picks up a metal object and
continues to bash this woman's legging. Yeah, yeah, essentially, but
she did not well we didn't see her go for
the head after that, right, So that Joel got pretty

(27:04):
much abused completely. It wasn't just his leg. They went
for all parts of his body. At the end, Rabbie
just took him out. So we don't know how far
Ellie went with this girl, but the fact that she
had it in her again, I say this the same
way I said it about Abby. What's in you where
you can just beat on someone like that? Has Ellie

(27:28):
turned a corner? You know what I'm saying? Has she changed?
Will she change after doing something so violent?

Speaker 2 (27:35):
Yeah? Because up to this point Ellie had while again
she has been violent, has never been cruel, right, she
has been violent to protect herself, to protect someone that
she cares about, to you know, save something. It's always
been for a greater purpose so to speak. We've never

(27:58):
seen her just torture anyone. Yeah, and you know, so
she should fit in with Seattle really well right now,
because that seems to be everyone's thing there. And she
was even when she was watching the Ludights go after

(28:21):
the soldier and hang him and you know, disembottel him.
She was disturbed by this. Ellie was you can see
it in her face. She was not impressed. But when
given the option to do this to someone else to
get the information she needed, she didn't hesitate.

Speaker 1 (28:42):
She did not. So I really do wonder if that's
going to change her character out. I mean, because how
can you do that, even though you think you're doing
it for the right reasons, You literally do that to
someone and then what you wake up the next day like, oh,
I'm good. I mean, that cannot not affect you unless
something is wrong with you.

Speaker 2 (29:02):
And and I think part of it too was even them.
What what really gave her that that that egged her on,
I think was when she did confront Zoe you know
upstairs before the chase. M m. First Ellie played on

(29:24):
her emotions. Oh that was cruel I still have nightmares,
blah blah blah blah. But then she's like he deserved it,
and taunted her and she threw the I think it
was acid or something. It was some kind of cleaning agent.

Speaker 1 (29:43):
Yeah, that was The girl's name is Nora, not Zoe,
No Noura. Okay, like no Roberts, like Roberts.

Speaker 2 (29:54):
And you know, so she she as soon as she
did that, by first playing on on the the cruelty
of the situation and then saying he deserved this, and
then the the whole chase thing and everything else. I
think it just it primed Ellie. I I don't know

(30:17):
that she would have tortured her otherwise, because her other
option was if you tell me where you know where
Abby is, I'll give you a clean death, right, which
probably at that point would have been a really good option, yeah,

(30:38):
because she could see that that that this was not
gonna this was gonna be a living death for her
for forever. So if Ellie had offered her a clean death,
you know, that would have been the more, the more
humane way to try and get the information, but instead she's.

Speaker 1 (30:55):
At this point. I don't know if it would have
mattered to Nora because she had in hail the sport.
She knew she was gonna die regardless.

Speaker 2 (31:03):
Right, But there's a difference between a living death and
a clean death.

Speaker 1 (31:09):
That's true. And that kind of even goes back to
what we were saying with Abby, like, yes, you know
your dad was killed, but he wasn't mutilated. He was
shot and it was done. And if do come and
do this to Joel, and I agree with what Tina
was saying, no matter what he did, that kind of
death was not warranted. Like what they did to him

(31:31):
was not right. If you want to fair exchange, just
shoot him and be done.

Speaker 2 (31:35):
With it, right. And I know this sounds terrible, but
I think if if Abby had found Joel and it
had just shot him in the head and been done
with it, I don't know that Ellie would have had
quite the lust for vengeance that she does right now.
It wasn't just his death, it was the manner in

(31:58):
which he died, cruelty, and and the and and the
pain and the suffering in which he died, and she
watched it. If Abby had shot him in the head
and they were gone by the time Ellie got there.
I don't know that she would have had quite the

(32:19):
h this level of vengeance, right, uh, because she was
aware of what Joel had done, right, So, I think
it was more the manner in which he died that
that that that has that has egged her on. It
wasn't just his death.

Speaker 1 (32:40):
Which almost well, I almost feel like she knew when
she came came across these people that she probably would
do that to them, just because like, this is what
you did to Joel, Right, So I almost think going
into that there was not even in a pause to say, well,

(33:01):
should I torture her for information? It's I don't give
a fuck. I'm going to get you and you're gonna
feel it.

Speaker 2 (33:09):
I think, you know, the opportunity presented her itself, and
she took it. Yeah, under difference, I don't know. You know,
if if she had just given Abby up, she wouldn't
have had a reason to and I don't know that
she would have let her live, But I don't think
she would have tortured in that.

Speaker 1 (33:26):
No, I agree. I think had she like let's say
Norah turned around and saw her and she confronted her,
she just like you said, just gave up the information.
She probably would have shot her and walked away. I
do believe that. But being that we're here where we are,
I have no problem beating you. That's what she's saying now.

(33:46):
Got ultimately goes back to my original question. Do you
think that will change her personality at all? Do you
think Ellie will be different because she's now cross that.

Speaker 2 (34:02):
I think she's going to be different. Yes, how I've
I don't know. Again, it's not that Joel was above
torturing people, because he did m hmm. But I think,
I mean, I don't think it will lessen her feelings

(34:25):
towards Dina. I don't think it will. Some thing's some
fundamental things about her will not change. But I do
think it will change her.

Speaker 1 (34:35):
Yeah, Because like I think about how Joel changed as
a character. Right, So, when his daughter died, he became
very brooding, very you know, I mean, his personality changed
when his daughter died, and his personality kind of changed
a little bit. When he took Ellie under his wing,
it changed again, right, Right, So I think that two

(35:00):
things can be true. I think she could have a
different she could be more dark, more brooding, more everything,
and still feel the same way about Dina and their kid, right, so,
but yeah, she could be different.

Speaker 2 (35:15):
Right and because I mean, the two things don't.

Speaker 1 (35:17):
Have to know we'll have to see what happened if
we get to see that or not, or if it's
going to be such a rush to the finish line,
we won't get to notice it, you know, immediately.

Speaker 2 (35:28):
And I kind of have a feeling, Okay, I am
going to say I'm going to predict that Dina does
make it, but I think that whole aftermath is going
to be next season.

Speaker 1 (35:41):
Mm hmm.

Speaker 2 (35:43):
I don't know. I'm kind of wondering if they're going
to leave it so that we don't know whether or
not Dina made it. I think we will find a
resolution on whether or not she finds Abby and what
she does to Abbey.

Speaker 1 (36:01):
Yeah, I think that. I agree with you. I think
Abby will be confronted in the finale. We will know
what happens to her.

Speaker 2 (36:10):
Yeah.

Speaker 1 (36:10):
I do think she'll know if Dina is safe, because
she is gonna run into Tommy. You know, Tommy's out there,
so she's gonna run into him eventually. Maybe they would
have crossed. She would have crossed. He would have crossed
back with Jesse and Dina again. Maybe not. I don't know,
But I don't know if we'll actually see Dina anymore

(36:31):
in this season. But we may or we may not,
because she does have an injury, so she's down, right,
it wouldn't be surprising to me if we didn't physically
see her anymore this season. But we heard, Okay, she's fine,
she's in the auditorium or whatever.

Speaker 2 (36:48):
They're on their way back, right, they went and got
the horse, another on their way back home whatever. Because
essentially at this point, Dina's part of this conflict is over. Yeah,
she's injured to the point where she would not be helpful.

Speaker 1 (37:08):
Yeah, she'd be a big distraction, she.

Speaker 2 (37:12):
Would be a liability. Yeah. But and so yeah, I
think we're gonna have flashbacks, and I think we're gonna
find out how Ellie found out, because that that closing
scene was Joel coming in and her in her room
and waking up with a happy face to see him,

(37:34):
So this would be prior to their falling out.

Speaker 1 (37:39):
Yeah. Oh, that's gonna be so bad to watch. I'm
gonna be like, oh my gosh, I feel so bad
for him. I do feel bad for him because he's
gonna have to confess what he did, and yeah, that
was what he did was wrong, but I still think
it was right. Just like in contrast, I think the

(38:00):
sergeant at the beginning of this episode also did was
what was right, but differently. So. I did hear some
conversations today about comparing Joel and Sergeant Park, right, and
I think though ultimately, at its core, their situations were
different because so when the sergeant's son said, it's in

(38:25):
the air, you know, steal us in right, The fact
is she knew her son was dead right when he
said that the sports were in him. There was no
sense in saving him because he was dead. He could
not be saved, so she did what he asked. On
the flip side with Joel, again, we talked about this

(38:45):
early in the season. There was no guarantee. It's not
like he took everyone's hope away because there's no guarantee.
We don't even know if these doctors could have figured
it out. Right, So I think Joel saving Allie is
a little bit different the sacrifice of Sergeant Park not
saving her son.

Speaker 2 (39:04):
And I agree with you, because she knew that even
if she had helped him get out of there. There
was no son to say because he was walking dead exactly,
and by the time he made it up to the
top of the stairs, even if he had made it

(39:24):
that far, may not have been human anymore. Because we
don't know how fast the spores work. We know it's
fairly quick because the one, uh, I want to call
her Zoe now because I called her Zoe once and
now she's Zoe.

Speaker 1 (39:42):
Oh, Laura, Nora.

Speaker 2 (39:46):
We know that Nora is, I mean, because they haven't
been downstairs for very long, and Nora is She's not
in good shape. She can't even she can't even stand
up at this point, right, So we know that it's
even he had made it to the top of the stairs.
By the even walking through the door would not have
saved him. Even if they had bathed him in alcohol,

(40:08):
it would not have saved him.

Speaker 1 (40:10):
No, it wouldn't have you know, there was zero chance.

Speaker 2 (40:14):
So his mother making that choice, the sergeant making that choice,
was not She wasn't condemning her son to death, right
she did. She was honoring his last wishes. And that
is very different than what Joel did saving Ellie. Because

(40:36):
there was one hundred percent certainty that Ellie would die
from this procedure. There was only a chance, and we
don't even know what chance that was because they were
very cryptic about it and they were not sharing, and
they were not you know, They're just like, this is
going to give us a chance. Well, what kind of chance?
I mean, there's a ninety nine percent chance or a

(40:58):
one percent chance or somewhere in between, because there's a
big difference and what kind of chance we're talking about.
So one hundred percent sure Ellie was going to die,
we don't know what the odds of them actually being
able to do anything with that, right, So you know,
there is a difference.

Speaker 1 (41:18):
Yeah, And that's why I disagree with some of the
people I've seen saying that, you know, so the sergeant
was right and Joel was wrong or whatever. I'm like you,
it's like comparing apples to oranges, Like, yeah, they're they're
both fruite, but the circumstances were very different. You cannot
say that Joel was wrong like I couldn't anyway.

Speaker 2 (41:38):
I mean, if they had said we know for one
hundred percent certainty that we can save everyone by this
one death, and it will be hard and it is
it's not right. But you know, the needs of the
many outweigh the needs of the few, all right, if

(42:01):
there was a certainty, or if they had said we
are ninety nine percent sure, or we're even ninety percent
sure that this is going to work and we can
save all of humanity and we can get rid of
all the spores that I think Joel may have made
a different choice, but all they gave him was uncertainty.

(42:23):
We think this might work, if you know. So it
was ifs and maybes and we're not sures. And that
is a lot to ask someone to allow the death
of a child that you have become very very close
to for a possibility. And she had become she had

(42:43):
taken the place of his dead daughter, yes, and he
had lost her in He wasn't willing to give up
another daughter on a remote possibility. And I don't know
that any parent would.

Speaker 1 (43:00):
Yeah, because it's a child. And also another difference is
the sergeant sudden Leon is an adults, right, He's not
a child.

Speaker 2 (43:08):
He's not a child, and he was making a choice.

Speaker 1 (43:10):
Yeah, so it's very different. I'm like, you guys, shut up.
You're wrong.

Speaker 2 (43:18):
As a parent. If someone told me that maybe the
death of my child might result in maybe possibly could
be something good.

Speaker 1 (43:28):
I would tell them, no, yeah, I mean somewhere right. Negative.

Speaker 2 (43:34):
That's a negative, ghost writer, that's a negative. And I
don't know of any any rational parent that would make
that choice, and we would never feel good about it
if we did, unless you're a sociopath, you know. So yeah, again,
these are very different choices.

Speaker 1 (43:57):
Which ultimately, yeah, which ultimately I think, you know, again,
to go back to that scene at the end where
Ellie was talking to Nora, you know, right before, you know,
after Nora kind of spilled her guts about what your dad,
you know, what Joel did, She's like, I know, and
she's like, I don't, you know, basically, I'm fine with it,
you know. I think, you know, she might have been

(44:19):
really upset with him for a time, but as she
starts to get perspective on it, she probably understands what
Joel did and accepts it and she's fine with it.

Speaker 2 (44:31):
I mean, and I do believe part of that, because
she even said that they were working through it, and
I think if given more time, the two of them
would have resumed their relationship. If they had had the
time to do so, but I think Ellie was her too,

(44:53):
that he had kept it from her and that she
hadn't been told the truth. And there was probably a
lot of mixed feelings because she didn't realize that for
her to for this cure to be created, she would
have to die, because they never said that to her,
you know. They made it seem like they were just
going to draw some blood or some tissue samples or

(45:14):
something like that and they needed a lab to process it,
not that this was going to require her death, and
they knew that all along, but never lied, you know.
And and I'm sure there was some you know, the
fact that through this entire chain of events, everyone ended

(45:35):
up lying to Ellie and that was probably hard for
her to she was processing all that m M, you know,
and and there was no one else that she could
take it out on Excepttional, and there was no one
else that she could tell except Joel, you know. So
that that probably added to their conflict, is that she

(45:58):
has these big feelings and yet can't process him any
other way because there's no one else that she can
share it with. M H. So, yeah, I could see
where But again, I do believe if it had been
given more time than two of them would have worked
things out.

Speaker 1 (46:18):
Yeah, I agree, because obviously, at least a spark person,
you know, she would have gotten over her feelings eventually
and they would have been cool. But that happened, which
is unfortunate.

Speaker 2 (46:32):
Well, Andres and we know that she would have gotten
over it too, just from the simple fact that she
knows who killed Joel, and she even knows why they
killed Joel, and she is aware of what Joel did.
So the fact that she is still wanting to go
after to avenge him means that she she was ultimately

(46:55):
okay with Joel's decision.

Speaker 1 (46:57):
Right exactly. So I guess we'll see how that ends.
I feel like we're gonna get this fight or something
with her and Abby. I think it's like a blood bath,
and both of them like they might not make it.

Speaker 2 (47:17):
Well, I'm also wondering this. Okay, So we know that
Ellie is in a basement that is covered in spores,
all right, and well, it doesn't affect her at all.
Obviously she's fine. M she is basically at this point
walking death.

Speaker 1 (47:34):
Oh what if she comes out and it's on her
clothes or what.

Speaker 2 (47:37):
I'm saying, it's going to be. It has to be.
It's not like she's again. She won't turn, but it
doesn't mean she's you know, it's not like she has
a force field around her or anything. Right, it means
that it is in her hair and in her clothes
and on her skin. And you know, she is literally
walking death right now to anyone who would encounter her.

Speaker 1 (48:01):
I'm like, touch me if you want to happens.

Speaker 2 (48:06):
Oh my gosh, yeah she is. She is the plague.
She's not gonna get it, but that doesn't mean she
can't pass it to anyone else. And I don't see
her going, Oh, before I go after on my revenge tour,
I'm going to wash my clothes and take a good shower.
I don't see that happening.

Speaker 1 (48:24):
Honestly, she's probably not even gonna think about it. She's
gonna run her ass out of there onto the next
thing and probably won't even think about it until she
sees things happening, right, like, oh shit, is that me?

Speaker 2 (48:40):
Am?

Speaker 1 (48:40):
I doing it?

Speaker 2 (48:41):
Yeah? And we do know that it's very fairly quick,
and we don't know how. We know that the spores
are living under what is for them probably ideal circumstances.
It is dark, it is damp, you know, so on
and so forth. So once she's out of that environment,
we don't know how well the spores will continue, you survive.

(49:01):
They may end up dying as soon as I don't
know if she gets.

Speaker 1 (49:04):
A starry.

Speaker 2 (49:07):
We don't know.

Speaker 1 (49:10):
But uh oh what uh uh? I don't hear you.

Speaker 2 (49:24):
You don't hear me? I can I mean, I'm still
got the little circle around me. Hello hmm, So can

(49:52):
you hear me now?

Speaker 1 (49:56):
M hm uh uh grow you're back, Oh, you're back.
I don't know what happened. Okay, So the last thing
I heard was it is dark, it is damp.

Speaker 2 (50:14):
Oh, it's ideal conditions for these spores to to populate in.
We don't know how the spores are going to react
once they get into an unideal situation where there is
sunlight and fresh air. So I mean, it's possible that
she will be deadly for a while. It's also possible
with a good sun sunlight bath, it might kill all

(50:35):
the spores. We don't know.

Speaker 1 (50:36):
M hmm. Yeah. I guess we'll have to see, and
I guess it'll be interesting to see if the writers
or director whoever even decides to focus on that or not,
or if they're even going to show it, because you're
all with limited time, they could just brush over it.

Speaker 2 (50:55):
Well, in the video game, they actually do have spores
that are in the air, and that's you know, makes
it much more just difficult to avoid. So, you know,
at this point, she she is manifesting the spores from
the game, and it's very very possible that again, she

(51:15):
comes out of there and she infects the first couple
of people that she's you know, she encounters until they
end up dying off because the conditions aren't good for
him anymore.

Speaker 1 (51:26):
But then that would open this other option. So if
that happens and then Ellie is aware of what's happening,
then she's gonna wonder if it's even safe for her
to go back to her people.

Speaker 2 (51:37):
Right, there's that as well.

Speaker 1 (51:42):
She might have to stay away from them.

Speaker 2 (51:44):
Well, but if it's just the spores, but then again,
she's also breathed them in m so and she can
see where they were breathing out the spores, so she
might end up doing the same thing for a while.

Speaker 1 (51:59):
Yeah, how do you know when it's gone? How do
you know when it's fully dissipated?

Speaker 2 (52:04):
Go up to people you don't like, it stays in
their face.

Speaker 1 (52:09):
I mean, there's that. I guess you could do that.

Speaker 2 (52:12):
I don't know. I mean really, that's all I have,
just going up and finding people I don't like.

Speaker 1 (52:18):
Yeah, Hi, oh you're still alive. Okay, I must be
good now, I'm good. Wow.

Speaker 2 (52:28):
I guess now I have to still kill you. But
you know, no, I know I'm safe.

Speaker 1 (52:33):
Yeah.

Speaker 2 (52:33):
So so, yeah, Ellie is probably very unsafe to be
here around right now, which is kind of sad because
we also know that Joel's brother is looking for Yes.

Speaker 1 (52:47):
Oh no, she better not kill Tommy by accident. That
will sucked.

Speaker 2 (52:54):
Now before Tobby Finzer, It's possible she'll know whether or
not that she's dangerous, and she could say, you know,
don't come near me, right, you can't come near me.
I'm not safe, And he is aware that she is immune,
so you know, yeah.

Speaker 1 (53:14):
M well, I don't know. I'm really curious to see
what's next. I'm excited it's just a couple episodes left,
like today's. Yesterday's episode was so short, it's only forty
five minutes.

Speaker 2 (53:25):
Yeah, I did notice that.

Speaker 1 (53:29):
Yeah, I wonder if the next ones would be longer.

Speaker 2 (53:32):
I don't know. Yeah, because when it ended, I'm like,
well that was kind of abrupt.

Speaker 1 (53:36):
Yeah, like that was fast because it was short.

Speaker 2 (53:40):
I'm like, wow, I really did though. I did. Walking
watching her walk through that underground and seeing these people,
you know, and and then going in you know, she
was like watching it was like watching death walk you

(54:04):
know what I mean. Everyone else is suffering. Everyone else's
is you know, having you know, shutters and convulsing and
coughing and everything else, and she's fine and walking with determination.
You know, she's just in that moment. To me, Ellie

(54:27):
was has probably been the most terrifying that we've ever
seen her.

Speaker 1 (54:30):
Oh, I would agree. That was something to see for sure. Actually,
all those spores and stuff on the wall, all the
all the things, all the people like being like I
guess held into the wall. That was so creepy, like
it looked wild. That scene, that whole scene in that
basement was just something to see. It just and she's

(54:54):
walking through it. You're right, you can see the spores
in the air, and it's just she's just there.

Speaker 2 (55:00):
Right and in the red lighting. Yeah, yeah, I mean
she you know, she was death made manifest at that point.

Speaker 1 (55:09):
Yeah, visually, it was very stunning. Actually, I was surprised
when she turned the power on. I'm like, why is
it light red?

Speaker 2 (55:15):
They have regular lights emergency power. Yeah, red lights take
less energy.

Speaker 1 (55:22):
I'm like, that's definitely a statement. They definitely did that
by design. So it looked Yeah, it was visually like, wow,
it was impactful, I think yeah.

Speaker 2 (55:33):
And and when Noel saw her walking, you know, I mean,
with the with a steady step and no coughing and
no discomfort, you could see already that she was confused.
And and then she had that. When she had that realization,

(55:53):
it was partly shocked, partly fear, some amazement. You're her, right,
but under those circumstances, it's not ideal, right because and
and Noel has to know that no matter what she

(56:14):
says at this point, whether she gives up Abby or not,
obviously you know Ellie is not going to stop.

Speaker 1 (56:24):
And she gives her up. You think she gives her up,
or you think she dies or turns or whatever without
giving her up. I don't know.

Speaker 2 (56:33):
Ultimately, I don't think it will matter in the end.
I mean, it will make things more expedient for Ellie.
But obviously, at this point Ellie is determined. She's she's
not going to go back and to dat it at
this point, she's she's not straying from the course she is.

(56:54):
She is on her path now and and this is it.
So getting Noel to give up Abby just move things
moves things along faster for her to find her. So
I think, since we only have really one more episode,

(57:15):
not this next one because it's mostly gonna be flashback,
I think that that she will give her up just
because it will make it faster for Ellie to find her,
since we don't have like two or three more episodes
for her to go searching.

Speaker 1 (57:32):
Yeah, I agree, because she doesn't have a lot of time,
and that place is big. She could be anywhere, right exactly.
So very interesting. Yeah, this was a good episode. They're
doing pretty good five for five so far.

Speaker 2 (57:48):
You know, it's it's been I have really enjoyed this.
I was kind of giggling last night because first I
watched The Last of Us and then I watched Walking Dead,
Dead City. I'm just like, oh, you know, look at
a tale of two apocalypses.

Speaker 1 (58:06):
Yeah, with very different approaches, with.

Speaker 2 (58:11):
Very different approaches. So it was I don't normally watch
them back to back like that. Uh So it was
just kind of it was kind of funny. But yeah,
I think they I think the writers and with the
Last of Us, they're they're doing a good job. I
really think they are.

Speaker 1 (58:32):
Yeah, I you know, I hate to compare because again
it's apple Stone Wrange just kind of thing. But I
dare say this is a better show than Dead City.
I know that's controversial, but that's how I'm feeling right
now today, you know, I.

Speaker 2 (58:48):
Mean, they are, they are very different. I would I
would say toe to toe first season of Walking Dead
to this pretty on par mm hmm, you know. But again,
they especially when they ran out of source material Walking Dead,
they just kind of spiraled. And and I do like

(59:09):
the fact that on this show they're like, no, we
have we have this set arc and we're going to
follow it and then we're done.

Speaker 1 (59:16):
Right, And it's always smart in my opinion, that's smart.

Speaker 2 (59:22):
For shows like this. It's it's better because that way
you can plan the beginning, the middle, and then the end,
and and that shows that are planned like that generally
give you a better ending.

Speaker 1 (59:36):
Yeah, instead of just trying to write and write and
write and ride the bike into the wheels fall off
kind of thing.

Speaker 2 (59:42):
M hm, so hm, you know, and and I've watched
you know, Babylon five would be a great example of
this because it ran for I think, with seven seasons,
but everything had been plotted out from beginning to end,
so the ending was was the ending that he had
planned when he wrote the first episode, So everything made

(01:00:04):
sense towards the end because it had a defined beginning, middle,
and end. So you know, even if it's only you know,
if it's ten season or two seasons or even one season,
if you have a defined beginning, middle, and end, it's
always better than the open ended. Let's take this for
all it's worth forever.

Speaker 1 (01:00:22):
Yeah, I agree. Okay, I think that's all I have
for this episode. What about you?

Speaker 2 (01:00:31):
I think so too.

Speaker 1 (01:00:32):
Yeah, this has been a great conversation. Thank you all
for listening to the entire episode. We appreciate you for
doing that. Don't forget to like, share, subscribe all that
good stuff because we'll be back again next week and
you want to get the notification. So that's it. You guys,
will see you guys next time. Take care of yourselves.

Speaker 2 (01:00:51):
By bye.
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