Episode Transcript
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Speaker 1 (00:02):
For KCAA ten fifty AM, NBC News Radio and Express
one of six point five FM. It looks like In
and Out Burgers is expanding once again. Lindsay Snyder, the
granddaughter of In and Out's founder Harry and Ester Snyder,
announced that she and the company's headquarters are moving to Franklin, Tennessee. Currently,
In and Out Burgers has restaurants in California, Nevada, Arizona, Utah, Texas, Oregon,
(00:27):
and Colorado. Despite the move, Snyder made it clear that
In and Out isn't abandoning its roots. Earlier this year,
the company announced it will shift its official corporate headquarters
back to Balden Park, where the chain was born in
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(00:48):
for growth, and the company's supply chain from its Texas
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Speaker 2 (00:54):
Move over.
Speaker 1 (00:55):
Whitecastle, In and Out Burgers is come into town. The
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(01:19):
set for August sixth. Whether in the Ilana Empire will
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Speaker 5 (06:02):
Casey a a.
Speaker 12 (06:19):
Well up, loll back down, Noah, loll back down. You
can stand up at the gates of hell Bota loll
back down, no stand mckground won't be turned around.
Speaker 13 (06:44):
Can I'll keep this world from dragging me down. Gonna
stand my gram Hannah Loom back down.
Speaker 6 (06:56):
Alright, alright, Good evening, San Bernardino. Good evening, world. Welcome
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(07:20):
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(07:43):
Be rational, be incisive, be reasonable. There would be no
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(08:07):
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Just call that number and you'll get the information how
to do it, all right, ladies and gentlemen. About nineteen
sixty five, a song came along which is reminiscent. They say,
(09:08):
history doesn't necessarily repeat itself, but it rhymes. And here's
a little bit of a rhyme from nineteen sixty five
that I think is applicable to this situation today.
Speaker 15 (09:29):
The Eastern world. It is exploding violence, flaring bullets loading
you're old enough to kill but not for voting. You
don't believe in war boards that gun your children, and
even that Jordan River has body is floating.
Speaker 6 (09:49):
But you tell me.
Speaker 16 (09:53):
An old and old again, my friends, why you don't
believe we're on the eve of destruction?
Speaker 17 (10:10):
Don't you understand what I'm trying to say? Can't you
feel the fears I'm feeling the day. If the button
is pushed, there's no running away, There'll be no one
to save.
Speaker 5 (10:24):
Will the world in a grave?
Speaker 17 (10:26):
Take a look around you boy, it's bound to carry
a boy. And you tell me over and over again,
my friend, I you don't believe we're on the eve
of destruction. Yeah, my blood's so mad, feels like coaggulating.
(10:59):
I'm sitting here just contemplayton.
Speaker 15 (11:04):
I can't with the truth.
Speaker 17 (11:05):
It knows no regulation, handful of senators don't pass legislation,
and marches alone can't bring in a creation when human
respect is this center of graydon this whole crazy world
is just too frustrating. Nania.
Speaker 16 (11:25):
Tell me over again, my friend, I.
Speaker 17 (11:32):
You don't believe we're on the eve of destructure? Think
of all the hate there is in Red China. Then
(11:52):
take a look around to some Alabama. You may leave
here for four days in stie place, but when you return,
it's the same old place, the founding of the drums,
the friend and disgrace me. You can bury your dead,
but don't leave a trace. Ain't your next don neighbor,
(12:15):
But don't forget to say grace.
Speaker 2 (12:17):
And tell me, and over over and over again, my friend,
you don't believe we're on the eve of destruction.
Speaker 17 (12:32):
No, no, you don't believe we're on the ev of destruction.
Speaker 6 (12:46):
And there we are, and here we are, fifty or
more years later, and I think that history was echoing
to us. Oh tonight, ladies, and John, I'm proud to
have on my show a very courageous man of men.
(13:07):
I've known for some time, Rabbi Hillo Cone. And you
might want to take it a look at Rabbi Cohne's
Facebook page if you haven't already. And what drew me
to it was his posting from a day or so ago,
and it says I've signed an open letter along with
(13:29):
over one thousand of my rabbinic and cantorial colleagues that
conveys my position and beliefs. The letter reads, the Jewish
people face a grave moral crisis threatening the very basis
of Judaism is the ethical voice that it's been since
the age of Israel's prophets. We cannot remain silent in
confronting it. As rabbis are Jewish leaders from across the world,
(13:54):
including the state of Israel. We're deeply committed to the
well being of the Jewish people. They go on to
talk about. He goes on to talk about the many
and remarkable achievements of Israel and extolling Israel and understand
its prioritization and protecting the lives of its soldiers and
(14:17):
its people in the ongoing battle against Amas. And we
mourn the loss of every soldier's life. But then it
says we cannot but we cannot condone the mass killings
of civilians, including a great many women, children and elderly,
or the use of starvation as a weapon of war.
(14:38):
We cannot keep silent. In another paragraph, I'm not going
to read the entire statement, but essentially it's an alarm clock.
So I'd like to turn it over to our guests.
Rabbi Khan, what is your belief about the state of
the relationship with the israel Is doing in the Gaza area,
(15:06):
and is it or is it not very close or
becoming acts of genocide? Sir well, I.
Speaker 18 (15:18):
Don't want to get into the meaning of genocide right
at the moment, except to say, you know, there are
words that take on kind of different power over a
period of time, and people invoke those words, sometimes somewhat recklessly.
But for instance, in America, there were people who were
(15:39):
referred to as slave masters. Well they were maybe employers.
So it's a matter of what we do with terminology.
Let's get to that perhaps a little bit later. But
I think one needs to understand first of all, the
existence of Israel, how it came into being, why it
(15:59):
came into being, and where it stands today. And before
I get into that, I'd really like to say that,
you know, there's a lot of propaganda that circulates in
all realms of life today, and certainly it affects the
(16:19):
situation in the Middle East. I often said after the
events of October seventh, twenty twenty three, in which Camas
attacked and killed you know, a couple thousand, almost a
couple of thousand Israelis that if one were in power,
(16:43):
and this goes anywhere in the world, and one wanted
to keep one's power for a variety of reasons. One
of the best ways to do that is to be
involved in a war. I must say that with I
would not say due respect, but my concern about the
(17:08):
actions of Benjamin Natanyahu, the Prime Minister of Israel, and
those were in his coalition that allow him to remain
in power being involved in a war. And this in
no way justifies what Kramas did. I had a feeling
(17:30):
at the time that with Israel's very sophisticated intelligence service,
it would have made sense to know that they had
people in the Ramas camp keeping track of things and
probably let Nittanyahu know about that, and he decided to
(17:52):
ignore it because if he was challenged, he would not
only lose his position, but he would have to face
the corruption charges that endangered his whole life. He was
accused of and it was facing severe corruption charges. And
(18:17):
one way to, you know, stay in power at a
time is to get involved in a call. And I
think that the conflict in no way justifies what Kamas did.
It made me wonder, first of all, how did Israel's
very sophisticated intelligence, probably secondary to that of the United
(18:40):
States and maybe even surpassing that of the United States
in some ways. How did that elude him? I don't
think it did. And I think that those who were
in his very very right wing people who I have
no patience for whatsoever, that they have to take some
(19:02):
of the blame for what has happened since then. That's
a very very dangerous kind of a point of view,
but I think it has some merit.
Speaker 6 (19:11):
Let me ask you this, Rabbi, And in no way
can it justify the acts of a moss in their
invasion of Israel, I mean, the kidnapping of babies, the
mutilation of human beings. The concertgers, Yeah, completely innocent. They
(19:32):
didn't know if these people were israelis Americans or what.
In fact, they did take some Americans that I can't
imagine what kind of people still act like that, taking
hostages and hacking up people at any rate. Can you
give us a brief history of the creation of Israel,
(19:57):
maybe going back to you know, modern times, not going
back to biblical times, but in modern times, how did
we get in a situation where we have these two
warring parties fighting over the same land.
Speaker 18 (20:10):
Well, first of all, I think one has to start
with the fact that in November of nineteen forty seven,
the United Nations, of which Nations were a member, came
up and approved of a partition plan, and that was
accepted to have a Jewish state, Arab state, and so on,
(20:30):
and that was rejected even though it was passed by
a vast majority of the United Nations, by the seven
Arab nations that surrounded Israel, surrounded Palestine that became Israel,
and then the expiration of the British mandate in nineteen
forty eight gave rise to the declaration of Independence of Israel.
(20:55):
Much of that has to do with what we might
refer to as Zionism, and that's a term that has
been distorted, misunderstood, and in many ways bantered around these
days very recklessly modern Zionism, and I shared this with
(21:16):
the Congregation not a number of years ago. Modern Zionism
began in eighteen ninety seven when Theodore Hertzel, who was
a Viennese journalist and had been an assimilated Jew, had
his Jewish consciousness tweaked by what was then an infamous trial,
(21:39):
the Dreyfus Trial in Paris, and he came to realize
that Jews would only be spared further defamation and oppression
if they were able to achieve normalcy. And he also
came to understand that in the real world, a people,
not a religion, a pull was treated normally only if
(22:04):
it had some sort of sovereignty, if it had a
national identity. And out of that came the modern Zionist movement,
and one of Herzel's predecessors, Moses Hess, articulated that quite
clearly when he said that homelessness was the heart of
(22:25):
the Jewish problem, and he argued that Jews needed to
lead a normal national existence without soil. A man sinks
to the status of a parasite feeding on others. And
Hertzel and those he brought together in Basel, Switzerland about
(22:47):
one hundred and now twenty years ago eighteen ninety seven,
agreed with that. It happens that I grew up in
a Zionist home. My parents and my sister and I
were refugees from Nazi Germany. My father was a prominent
figure of the Zionist movement in Germany, which then became,
(23:12):
along with other Jewish movements, target of the Nazis. And
at the time it was just this kind of a
footnote at the time my sister was born, two years
before I was born, my parents had every intention of
going to Palestine and named my sister Aviva because they
(23:33):
were going to settle in the great Jewish city of
Tel Aviv. It happened that my father delayed our move
to out of Germany as long as he could, and
then we finally left in nineteen thirty nine and became
to the United States, though members of our family had
(23:56):
gone to Palestine a few years earlier. And I say
that is because I was raised in. The songs that
I was raised on as a toddler, as a child
were the songs of what we call the Heklutz movement,
the Jewish pioneer movement in Palestine that created a socialist
(24:20):
economy called kibwut siem collective settlements. It was a pattern
for a more modern civilization. And what we know is
that Israel had succeeded over the years in creating that
kind of society. I don't want to get into much
(24:40):
of that, but Zionism has been misdistorted in many ways,
and I can talk a little bit later about some
definitions of what Zionism means.
Speaker 2 (24:52):
For me.
Speaker 18 (24:52):
I don't apologize at all for being a Zionist. I
reject those who call themselves Zionists who are betraying fundamental
Jewish and humane rights.
Speaker 6 (25:09):
Robert, let me ask you, how did we how did well?
The aftermath of World War Two? Numerous displaced persons, mostly Jews,
with their homes destroyed, nowhere to go, some of them
actually on board ships trying to immigrate into the United States.
(25:35):
The United States, for all of our talk about loving
those refugees, would not allow them to land.
Speaker 18 (25:44):
Let me correct that you said post World War two.
It came just prior to World War Two, okay. And
I think the ship that you're talking about im intently
was this as a Saint Louis, which had nine hundred
and some Jewish passengers who had intended to land in
Florida and make the new life for themselves in the
(26:07):
United States. They were sent to Cuba and turned back
because at that time, don't forget, America was harboring nationalists,
that was the mindset, and wanted no part of invasions.
And what's interesting about that is that the US the
(26:30):
Saint Louis left Germany in the middle of May of
nineteen thirty nine, and the same time. The day that
it left, another ship left Rotterdam called the SS Stottendom.
My parents, my sister and I were on that ship
and we were able to come to the United States,
(26:53):
but only after we were somehow miraculously made our way
into what was then an American quota system. America. Didn't
matter if you were Jewish or not, whether you were
being persecuted or not. There was a number, a given
number of Germans, let's say, who could come to the
(27:17):
United States. Didn't matter. You could be Adolf Eichmann, you
could be you know, Himmler. But so we were able
miraculously to come to the United States. That was prior
to World War Two. And then after World War two,
then the doors opened for people who had survived the
(27:38):
Holocaust and were in displaced persons camps, number them family
members who came here.
Speaker 6 (27:46):
So after the British Mandate in forty eight forty eight,
numerous displaced Jews settled in what was then called Palestine,
in which they called Israel.
Speaker 18 (28:00):
Well, some of them, some of them had a lot
of them had come earlier during the war, had in
a sense maybe illegally immigrated there. Because the British Mandate
didn't allow them and had to work. Maybe if some
people have maybe read Leon Juris's classic book Exodus, in
which he talks about that.
Speaker 6 (28:22):
How long did or was there ever any peace between
the Palestinians and the Israelis after the establishment of the
state of Israel.
Speaker 18 (28:33):
Well, it depended where you were. For example, there was
in Haifa, which is great port city in Israel, there
was a wonderful interchange between I don't I'll refer them
Arabs and Jews, though Arabs could have been Christian Arabs,
Muslim Arabs. But let's say Arabs and Jews. It might
(28:58):
be interesting for people to note the very term anti
Semitism literally would mean one is anti Jewish and Arab,
because Arabs were Semites too right, and people sometimes forget that.
But that term has been locked into being anti Jewish.
But so there was cooperation. There were some Jews, a
(29:23):
minority of Orthodox Jews, who felt that their right to
the land and the boundaries of the land had been
determined biblically. I discard that, and that's nice faith, but
that's not how countries run in the world. The boundaries
(29:44):
were set by the United Nations, and unfortunately the Seven
Arab nations. When Israel was established in May fourteenth of
nineteen forty eight, they all launched an attacked and somehow,
I don't like to use the through a miracle, you know, haphazardly,
(30:06):
but Israel one that wore and we're able to continue
to establish their government.
Speaker 6 (30:14):
Before we take a caller, we have a caller online waiting.
It's almost it's almost an intractable position where both the
Israelis and the Muslims believe that they're in a land
that was given to them exclusively by God, the same God,
(30:36):
the same land, but God gave it twice, depending on
whose version you want to believe. And I think that's
part of the problem that we have here. Let's let's
go to line one to our scholar Phillis Phyllis, Are
you with us, Phillis, what's on your mind tonight?
Speaker 16 (30:57):
Well that.
Speaker 19 (31:03):
Going back to who is land? Oh it is or was?
Speaker 10 (31:13):
Uh?
Speaker 19 (31:15):
My understanding is that the Palestinians didn't until because what
we call now Palestine Isi was part of Syria. Is
that crud?
Speaker 18 (31:36):
You'll have to repeat that question.
Speaker 6 (31:37):
She's saying, there's her understanding, Rabbi, that the Palestinians really
didn't exist because at that time the land you're saying,
the land that they presently occupy in Gaza Phyllis well
was part of Syria. Yeah, did Did the Palestinian people exist?
Speaker 18 (31:58):
No, not by and there were Palestinian people, There was
no actual government, Palestinian government, Yes, the Palestinian You know.
First of all, a few hundred thousand Arabs lived in
what became the state of Israel, and then there were
the neighbors in Jordan, Syria and so on. But conflict
(32:21):
arose between the new State of Israel and those Arab states.
But the real question is, you know, we use the
term in America when we refer to our Native Americans
as the indigenous people. Both Arabs and Jews are indigenous
(32:43):
to that land. And I must say it's just as
another footnote. You know, when the Zionist movement, modern Zionist
movement developed in under Theodore Hertzel the end of the
eighteen nineties so on, there were a number of attempts
to award the Jewish people, this is prior to the Holocaust,
(33:06):
with land somewhere else where they could have their own sovereignty.
One of them was Uganda, and there were others, you know,
but there was an emotional tie. Some could call it
a religious tie. Let's call it an emotional tie to
that land, which was always known as the Holy Land,
(33:29):
holy because it was the place where the patriarchs and
matriarchs of the Jewish people, going back to the time
I won't say of Abraham, but the Abrahamic period. That
was the land to which they came from neighboring lands
and settled there. And there has been a Jewish presence
(33:53):
in that land now for the last four thousand years.
Speaker 6 (33:56):
Let me clarify a little bit. By Abrahamic religion, Abraham
you mean the what the Jews call the Torah, the
first five books of the Bible, Genesis, Exodus, Leviticus, Numbers,
and Deuteronomy, and what the Christians called the Old Testament,
the oldest part of the Old Testament, and what the
(34:17):
Uh Muslims also believe that they are descended from the
tribe of Abraham. So here we are all three Abrahamic religions,
h all all espousing peace is our central uh philosophy
(34:39):
and killing one another. Yeah, phyllis Uh Does that clarify
anything for you? What do you think?
Speaker 19 (34:47):
Well, you know, I'm looking at a quote huh al
Asad that said to Yasi Arifod, never forget, there's no
(35:08):
such thing as a Palestinian people. There's no Palestinian entity.
Palestine is an an integral part of Syria. So when
and this is like nineteen thirty six, well, no, that's
the later. But when the greatst Government proposed that that
(35:33):
part of Syria should be divided into Jewish Palestine and
Arab Palestine, that's the way it started, respects my understanding
of it.
Speaker 18 (35:48):
It really should not matter. Excuse me, Phyllis, It really
should not matter whether there was a group of people Palestinian.
The fact is that there arose in the neighboring country
and neighboring Israel, people who began to call themselves Palestinians
and wanted the establishment of a Palestinian state. That they
(36:11):
were entitled to do that. It would have been maybe
handier if they would have used some different name, but
they used that, you know, and because they refused, of
course to accept the legitimacy of Israel as a state, right.
Speaker 15 (36:29):
Right.
Speaker 18 (36:31):
And I must say that there have been radical Palestinians,
and there have been radical Ziatists. There have been people
who have just not abided by one of the things
(36:53):
the values taught to them in their faiths. For Jews Judaism,
but for Christian and Muslims, you know, it doesn't matter.
And what you might be also find interesting is that
Israel itself, the state of Israel, is made up today
of you know, seven eight million Jews. Out of that number,
(37:16):
I would say four to five million are what we
were call secularists. Are they do not abide by any
religion other than Judaism, but the Jewish religion is not
as central to their life as the Jewish culture, Jewish history,
Jewish peoplehood.
Speaker 6 (37:38):
Yes, Phyllis, does that clarify things for you?
Speaker 18 (37:46):
Yeah, well, maybe I'm confused.
Speaker 6 (37:49):
Or maybe confused as well. Thank you, phillisph thank you
so much for calling and we appreciate your participation. Thank
you very much. Well, let's get on to a little
bit more of the difficult situation tonight. And I want
(38:12):
to talk I'm going to use the G word. I'm
going to talk about genocide, okay, and genocide is the
and I'm reading the United Nations definition, the genocide is
a deliberate and systematic destruction of a national, ethnic, racial,
(38:35):
or religious group in whole or in part, as defined
by the United Nations Convention on Genocide. This definition includes
acts like killing causing serious bodily or mental harm, deliberately
inflicting conditions of life, calculated to bring about physical destruction,
(38:57):
imposing measures to prevent births, or forcibly transferring children of
the group. That's a complex definition, but let's look at
the elements of the offense, as we lawyers like to say,
the components of it. One, there has to be an
(39:18):
intent to destroy. The key element is whether the act
or accused of genocide has a specific intent to destroy you,
in whole or in part a protected group. The Convention
outlines four protected groups ethnical, racial, or religious groups. The
(39:41):
acts of genocide include acts like killing causing serious bodily
injury or mental harm, deliberate infliction of conditions of life,
calculated to bring about physical destruction, measures intended to prevent bursts,
and forcibly transferring children. So that's the legal definition of genocide.
(40:05):
And if we take a look at, you know, such
stalwarts for Israel, as Senator Bernie Sanders, a ju quite obviously,
who has now come out and said that he slammed
Israeli Prime Minister Benjamin not in Yahoo for denying the
(40:28):
food crisis in Gaza. Quote, he is a disgusting liar,
Sanders said Tuesday night during an appearance on CNN's The
Source with Caitlin Collins. Israel had a right to defend
itself from the terrible Hamas attack. But I think everybody
understands that in the last one and a half years
(40:50):
they have been waging a brutal, horrific, almost unprecedented type
of war, not just against Hamas but against the Palestinian people.
The Vermonts are at it. The Israeli military said Saturday
it would resume air drops in the Gaza strip. Quite frankly, folks,
I saw air drops. I had airdrop food dropped to
(41:14):
me while we were in Vietnam. It's an extremely inefficient
way to drop food, even to United States Marines who
have the ability to go out and pick it up
in the field with the enemy there. The Palestinians, if
that doesn't land in their area, are not going to
be able to pick it up. If the parachute doesn't open,
(41:37):
it bursts, it lands in the wrong place, it can
land and hurt and kill people. I mean parachuting in
food might make a good optic, but it is not
a way to alleviate anything.
Speaker 18 (41:51):
Let me say this, the term genocide really came to
the forefront when we talk about what Knots tried to do.
That term then has been applied at various places around
the world. The Israel has at various times been called
(42:14):
in the United Nations in apartheid state. It's been called
a genocidal state. You know all these It's been called racist.
Just you know, people toss these terms around. That does
not in any way mean that Israel what it has
done and is doing is right. I'm talking about the
(42:36):
government of Israel, but it would be better not to
use those terms. But I want to share with you
your definition that you gave is good. But there's an
organization which I have received communications with them for the
last twenty thirty years. It's made up of Jews and Arabs,
(42:57):
primarily Jews in Israel. It's called bit Selam, and they
just came out with something that I received two days
ago called our genocide an executive summary. This is why
basically primarily Israeli's and here's what they say, an examination
(43:17):
of Israel's policy in the Gaza Strip and its horrific outcomes,
together with statements by senior Israeli politicians and military commanders
about the goals of the attack, leads to the unequivocal
conconclusion that Israel is taking coordinated, deliberate action to destroy
(43:43):
Palestinian society in the Gaza Strip. In other words, Israel
is committing genocide against the Palestinians in the Gaza Strip.
And then it goes on to define it, and I
think that this well, you read the United Nations definition
says the term genocide this is by the group at Selim,
(44:05):
which is basically a Jewish Arab group in Israel, and
they have support of in Israel. The term genocide refers
to as socio historical and political phenomenon that has occurred
throughout human history. Since the UN Convention on the Prevention
(44:26):
and Punishment of the Crime of Genocide was signed in
nineteen forty eight and came into force in nineteen fifty one.
Genocide has also been recognized as one of the gravest
crimes in international law, involving acts committed with intent to
(44:46):
destroy and holar in part a national, ethnic, racial, or
religious group. I'm going to stop for a moment, say
we could point to groups in America white supremacists who
could be fall into that category perpetrating genocide. Let me
go on. Genocide is carried out through multiple and parallel
(45:10):
practices over time, with mass physical killing being only one
of them. Destroying living conditions, sometimes in concentration zones or camps,
systemically trying to prevent births, widespread sexual violence against group members,
(45:31):
or their mass expulsion can all be and have been
throughout history among the means used by states or ruling
authorities to destroy ethnic, national, racial, religious, and other groups. Accordingly,
genocidal acts are various actions intended to bring about the
(45:54):
destruction of a distinct group as part of a deliberate,
coordinated effort by a ruling authority. Both morally and legally,
genocide cannot be justified under any circumstance, including as an
act of self defense. If you read that carefully, you
(46:15):
could point to times in the history of the United
States when the indigenous population was subjected to exactly that kind.
Speaker 6 (46:26):
Of treatment that was called wounded k me.
Speaker 18 (46:29):
Yes, right, but you might say that it probably could
have better been called uh destroyed life.
Speaker 6 (46:40):
And as a result, I mean we can go back
into into indigenous genocide here for a long time. But
let's apparently we have somebody with a contrary point of view,
and well, I'm sure I must I must say it
pains me to see the people of Israel, the Jews
(47:03):
of Israel, which I have always supported, acting the same
way that Hitler in the Nazis nearly the same way,
by ghetto wising and starving and deliberately killing outrageous Palestinians.
Speaker 18 (47:19):
It's unconscionable and from my point of view, it is
a flagrant violation of Jewish teaching. They may call themselves,
you know, observant, Orthodox, whatever it is, but it is
a total disgrace and it's not Jewish.
Speaker 6 (47:42):
Let's take let's take a caller. We have Tim online too, Tim,
what's on your mind tonight?
Speaker 3 (47:52):
Good evening, Ellen, and Rabbi Cohn.
Speaker 18 (47:55):
Hello, Tim.
Speaker 3 (47:57):
I'm appalled and disgusted with the actions of mister Nettan Yahoo. However,
I think that it's all too easy to focus on
without who, at least in recent times, started the war,
(48:19):
Who was responsible for killing a thousand Jews? And I
think a lot of people I don't think that retaliation
is justified and think that these two neighboring lands should
treat each other with kindness and respect. And I just
(48:44):
think that we can't view the unfortunate starvation of Palestinians
and the problems in the Palestinian area without keeping in
mind how unthinkable and how tragic it was that Israel
was invaded, the attacks in an almost unthinkable manner in
(49:08):
a thousand Israelis and numerous hostages or families have been
forever affected by that.
Speaker 6 (49:17):
Tim, let me ask you this, what do you think
about the demonstrations in Israel today by Israelis who are
standing there demanding an end to the starvation, an end
to the oppression of the Palestinian people, without regard to
return to the hostages. Those are israel Israeli Jews. Don't
(49:43):
you think we ought to listen to their voices.
Speaker 9 (49:45):
I think.
Speaker 18 (49:47):
The numbers today are that's seventy percent of Israelis disagree
with what their government is doing. That's a pretty large percentage.
And I am very close members of my family are
out in protest two three nights a week, protesting what
their government is doing.
Speaker 6 (50:08):
Tim. Uh, We've got kind of a poor connection with
you here. Uh. We dropped. We we dropped, we dropped.
Your call Tim, If you call back in, UH, We'll
get you on. I'd be interested in uh what you
think of the UH situation? Is it? Is it possible
(50:28):
to be uh pro ISRAELI?
Speaker 5 (50:32):
Uh?
Speaker 6 (50:33):
Yet UH believes that the treatment of the Palestinians Uh
is unjustified. Okay, we still don't have Tim back. If
you'll call, If you'll call in, I'd like to hear
his position on whether or not somehow what Hamas did,
all those horrible things that we know they did, how
(50:56):
that just how that? Okay? Tim? Uh? If you can
hear me now, I'd like to hear your your opinion
on no matter how bad, no matter how badly that
Hamas acted, that it's gone way too far now and
that's not a justify. That's not to justify what Hamas did,
but the reaction has just been way over the top
(51:20):
and in violation.
Speaker 18 (51:21):
Before Tim, Before Tim, before you answer, I would like
to suggest that people read a book that came out
a few years ago. I think it's called The Olive Branch,
and it's about ways in which Arabs were Palestinians, but
Arabs living on what is called the West Bank were attacked,
(51:43):
their homes were destroyed, their olive fields were cut down
by people who said they were doing this in the
name of Judaism. You know, there are maps today that
refer to those the West Bank and Gaza as a
Judea in Scenaria, and they justify that saying because that
(52:06):
was the Biblical terminology. Well, I refer to them as
the West Bank and Gaza. They're not in places determined
by the Bible. But I just wanted to make you
suggest that all I think it's called The Olibriant. It's
a very moving book, Tim. Go ahead, Tim, Tim, what
do you think?
Speaker 20 (52:27):
Thank you for that, Rabbi. I will look forward to
reading that book. In response to Allen's question, of course
they should be listened to. I don't agree with any
of the continued policies of NET and Yahoo, But what
concerns me is the anti Semitism that arises from from
(52:47):
people that are talking about genocide without keeping in mind
how this started, why this started. And you can disagree
with NET and Yahoo. You can certainly demand that the
killing stop, but I think there's so much anti semitism
on college campuses and throughout America and the world as
(53:09):
a result of in what in Netanyahu's mind is retaliation.
You know, it's not. It's not just a campaign that
started out of hatred of a particular ethnic group or religion.
Speaker 14 (53:27):
It's it.
Speaker 20 (53:30):
Some response is justified. The question is how much and
when should it stop? And I think the three of
us are in agreement it should stop, but not at
the cost of Israel's survival and reputation.
Speaker 18 (53:47):
Well, I agree. You know, things that have to stop
today are hostages need to be returned. There has to
be diplomacy to bring about peaceful relationships. You know, if
somebody would have told me thirty years ago that there
would be peace accords between Israel and Egypt, you know,
(54:10):
but I remember seeing that on the White House lawn.
You know, Monochambagen and Nasser is striking a peace accord,
or Yasuk Rabin and the Arafat. Well, you know, diplomacy
is something that needs to guard guide our world today,
not warfare, not violence, and certainly not starvation. That's as
(54:38):
unreligious as anything can be.
Speaker 20 (54:42):
More people have died in the name of religion in
the world history than any other cause.
Speaker 6 (54:46):
Right, Rabbi, Is it possible to be anti Zionist and
not be anti Semitic.
Speaker 18 (55:00):
I believe it is. I would say that while I
am a Zionist and proud to be one, I am
anti right wing Zionism that has distorted the Zionist movement.
If I can just take a moment to share with you,
there are three things that I suggested are statements of definition,
(55:23):
and I'll be very brief. First, a Zionist, to me
is one who is committed to the existence and survival
of the State of Israel, and who translates that commitment
into tangible acts promoting that survival. Two, a Zionist is
one who takes the principles of the Declaration of Independence
(55:46):
of Israel seriously. That moment when David Ben Gurion read
to the world the principles on which the new Jewish
State would rest was a moment of commitment. There was
a particular way in which the founders of the Jewish
State hoped it would develop. That included the total respect
(56:07):
for religious sites, the holy places of Christians and Moslems
as well as Jews. It included total freedom and equality
of opportunity for the Arab minority, and included total freedom
of religion. And Third, as Zionist is one who lives
in Israel or in the diaspora who sees Israel as
(56:30):
the place where prophetic ideals can be put to work
in a realistic setting. And that's what I've been to
Israel many, many times, and one of the things that
always strikes me. It has the potential of being a
place where true justice and equality are practiced, and it's
(56:54):
a good model for the world. It's not providing that
model today.
Speaker 6 (57:00):
Be a flowering of democracy in the Middle East. Rabbi
who's responsible for being on the Let's talk about who
the right wing are? Is it the ultra Orthodox jew?
Speaker 18 (57:13):
Yes? Yes?
Speaker 6 (57:14):
And they also are exempt from military service, are they not?
Speaker 18 (57:20):
Men? Are if they are students of Jewish literature and
so on, they are exempt. They're trying to change that,
but that has not gone through, and that, you know,
angers the majority of Israelis. They say, why should why
should we go in? Why should our sons and daughters
go in in Israel? Both are subscribed, both are drafted
(57:45):
men and women. Why are those people exempt? Well, you know,
when Israel was established in nineteen forty eight, David Ben Gurion,
the very very wise and great man, you know, he said,
let me just turn over certain areas to quote that
religious group, so we don't have to bother with them,
(58:06):
so that, for example, marriage in Israel to Jews, that's
civil marriage, is not possible only under the aegis of
the religious group. So you know, I love America because
America theoretically has separation of church and state. It would
be great if Israel had separation of church and state.
Speaker 6 (58:30):
And had peace among all the people that lived there.
It's a beautiful place. The Israelis and the Palestinians to
some extent, have made it green. They've done amazing things
to make their other otherwise previously dry lands fertile. What
(58:54):
a wonderful place it would be if they could share
their holy sites and and finally learn to live together.
Ladies and gentlemen. I want to thank you for Rabbi
Hella Comb for joining us tonight, and our callers, Phyllis
and Tim. Thank you very much for calling in.
Speaker 18 (59:14):
Thanks Allan for creating this.
Speaker 6 (59:17):
Thank you, thank you Rabbi for being so brave as
to come in here and explain the situation to us.
I want to thank the Democratic Luncheon Club of sam
Bernardina for their sponsorship and anybody else who wishes to
sponsor this show please call the Democratic Luncheon Club. We
can arrange that. This is Alan Bartman for the Reformers
saying good night.
Speaker 13 (59:38):
Me Down on.
Speaker 7 (59:41):
My back Down.
Speaker 11 (59:49):
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Just call that number and you'll get the information how
to do it, all right, ladies and gentlemen. About nineteen
sixty five, a song came along which is reminiscent. They say,
(09:08):
history doesn't necessarily repeat itself, but it rhymes. And here's
a little bit of a rhyme from nineteen sixty five
that I think is applicable to this situation today.
Speaker 15 (09:29):
The Eastern world. It is exploding violence, flaring bullets loading
you're old enough to kill but not for voting. You
don't believe in war boards that gun your children, and
even that Jordan River has body is floating.
Speaker 6 (09:49):
But you tell me.
Speaker 16 (09:53):
An old and old again, my friends, why you don't
believe we're on the eve of destruction?
Speaker 17 (10:10):
Don't you understand what I'm trying to say? Can't you
feel the fears I'm feeling the day. If the button
is pushed, there's no running away, There'll be no one
to save.
Speaker 5 (10:24):
Will the world in a grave?
Speaker 17 (10:26):
Take a look around you boy, it's bound to carry
a boy. And you tell me over and over again,
my friend, I you don't believe we're on the eve
of destruction. Yeah, my blood's so mad, feels like coaggulating.
(10:59):
I'm sitting here just contemplayton.
Speaker 15 (11:04):
I can't with the truth.
Speaker 17 (11:05):
It knows no regulation, handful of senators don't pass legislation,
and marches alone can't bring in a creation when human
respect is this center of graydon this whole crazy world
is just too frustrating. Nania.
Speaker 16 (11:25):
Tell me over again, my friend, I.
Speaker 17 (11:32):
You don't believe we're on the eve of destructure? Think
of all the hate there is in Red China. Then
(11:52):
take a look around to some Alabama. You may leave
here for four days in stie place, but when you return,
it's the same old place, the founding of the drums,
the friend and disgrace me. You can bury your dead,
but don't leave a trace. Ain't your next don neighbor,
(12:15):
But don't forget to say grace.
Speaker 2 (12:17):
And tell me, and over over and over again, my friend,
you don't believe we're on the eve of destruction.
Speaker 17 (12:32):
No, no, you don't believe we're on the ev of destruction.
Speaker 6 (12:46):
And there we are, and here we are, fifty or
more years later, and I think that history was echoing
to us. Oh tonight, ladies, and John, I'm proud to
have on my show a very courageous man of men.
(13:07):
I've known for some time, Rabbi Hillo Cone. And you
might want to take it a look at Rabbi Cohne's
Facebook page if you haven't already. And what drew me
to it was his posting from a day or so ago,
and it says I've signed an open letter along with
(13:29):
over one thousand of my rabbinic and cantorial colleagues that
conveys my position and beliefs. The letter reads, the Jewish
people face a grave moral crisis threatening the very basis
of Judaism is the ethical voice that it's been since
the age of Israel's prophets. We cannot remain silent in
confronting it. As rabbis are Jewish leaders from across the world,
(13:54):
including the state of Israel. We're deeply committed to the
well being of the Jewish people. They go on to
talk about. He goes on to talk about the many
and remarkable achievements of Israel and extolling Israel and understand
its prioritization and protecting the lives of its soldiers and
(14:17):
its people in the ongoing battle against Amas. And we
mourn the loss of every soldier's life. But then it
says we cannot but we cannot condone the mass killings
of civilians, including a great many women, children and elderly,
or the use of starvation as a weapon of war.
(14:38):
We cannot keep silent. In another paragraph, I'm not going
to read the entire statement, but essentially it's an alarm clock.
So I'd like to turn it over to our guests.
Rabbi Khan, what is your belief about the state of
the relationship with the israel Is doing in the Gaza area,
(15:06):
and is it or is it not very close or
becoming acts of genocide? Sir well, I.
Speaker 18 (15:18):
Don't want to get into the meaning of genocide right
at the moment, except to say, you know, there are
words that take on kind of different power over a
period of time, and people invoke those words, sometimes somewhat recklessly.
But for instance, in America, there were people who were
(15:39):
referred to as slave masters. Well they were maybe employers.
So it's a matter of what we do with terminology.
Let's get to that perhaps a little bit later. But
I think one needs to understand first of all, the
existence of Israel, how it came into being, why it
(15:59):
came into being, and where it stands today. And before
I get into that, I'd really like to say that,
you know, there's a lot of propaganda that circulates in
all realms of life today, and certainly it affects the
(16:19):
situation in the Middle East. I often said after the
events of October seventh, twenty twenty three, in which Camas
attacked and killed you know, a couple thousand, almost a
couple of thousand Israelis that if one were in power,
(16:43):
and this goes anywhere in the world, and one wanted
to keep one's power for a variety of reasons. One
of the best ways to do that is to be
involved in a war. I must say that with I
would not say due respect, but my concern about the
(17:08):
actions of Benjamin Natanyahu, the Prime Minister of Israel, and
those were in his coalition that allow him to remain
in power being involved in a war. And this in
no way justifies what Kramas did. I had a feeling
(17:30):
at the time that with Israel's very sophisticated intelligence service,
it would have made sense to know that they had
people in the Ramas camp keeping track of things and
probably let Nittanyahu know about that, and he decided to
(17:52):
ignore it because if he was challenged, he would not
only lose his position, but he would have to face
the corruption charges that endangered his whole life. He was
accused of and it was facing severe corruption charges. And
(18:17):
one way to, you know, stay in power at a
time is to get involved in a call. And I
think that the conflict in no way justifies what Kamas did.
It made me wonder, first of all, how did Israel's
very sophisticated intelligence, probably secondary to that of the United
(18:40):
States and maybe even surpassing that of the United States
in some ways. How did that elude him? I don't
think it did. And I think that those who were
in his very very right wing people who I have
no patience for whatsoever, that they have to take some
(19:02):
of the blame for what has happened since then. That's
a very very dangerous kind of a point of view,
but I think it has some merit.
Speaker 6 (19:11):
Let me ask you this, Rabbi, And in no way
can it justify the acts of a moss in their
invasion of Israel, I mean, the kidnapping of babies, the
mutilation of human beings. The concertgers, Yeah, completely innocent. They
(19:32):
didn't know if these people were israelis Americans or what.
In fact, they did take some Americans that I can't
imagine what kind of people still act like that, taking
hostages and hacking up people at any rate. Can you
give us a brief history of the creation of Israel,
(19:57):
maybe going back to you know, modern times, not going
back to biblical times, but in modern times, how did
we get in a situation where we have these two
warring parties fighting over the same land.
Speaker 18 (20:10):
Well, first of all, I think one has to start
with the fact that in November of nineteen forty seven,
the United Nations, of which Nations were a member, came
up and approved of a partition plan, and that was
accepted to have a Jewish state, Arab state, and so on,
(20:30):
and that was rejected even though it was passed by
a vast majority of the United Nations, by the seven
Arab nations that surrounded Israel, surrounded Palestine that became Israel,
and then the expiration of the British mandate in nineteen
forty eight gave rise to the declaration of Independence of Israel.
(20:55):
Much of that has to do with what we might
refer to as Zionism, and that's a term that has
been distorted, misunderstood, and in many ways bantered around these
days very recklessly modern Zionism, and I shared this with
(21:16):
the Congregation not a number of years ago. Modern Zionism
began in eighteen ninety seven when Theodore Hertzel, who was
a Viennese journalist and had been an assimilated Jew, had
his Jewish consciousness tweaked by what was then an infamous trial,
(21:39):
the Dreyfus Trial in Paris, and he came to realize
that Jews would only be spared further defamation and oppression
if they were able to achieve normalcy. And he also
came to understand that in the real world, a people,
not a religion, a pull was treated normally only if
(22:04):
it had some sort of sovereignty, if it had a
national identity. And out of that came the modern Zionist movement,
and one of Herzel's predecessors, Moses Hess, articulated that quite
clearly when he said that homelessness was the heart of
(22:25):
the Jewish problem, and he argued that Jews needed to
lead a normal national existence without soil. A man sinks
to the status of a parasite feeding on others. And
Hertzel and those he brought together in Basel, Switzerland about
(22:47):
one hundred and now twenty years ago eighteen ninety seven,
agreed with that. It happens that I grew up in
a Zionist home. My parents and my sister and I
were refugees from Nazi Germany. My father was a prominent
figure of the Zionist movement in Germany, which then became,
(23:12):
along with other Jewish movements, target of the Nazis. And
at the time it was just this kind of a
footnote at the time my sister was born, two years
before I was born, my parents had every intention of
going to Palestine and named my sister Aviva because they
(23:33):
were going to settle in the great Jewish city of
Tel Aviv. It happened that my father delayed our move
to out of Germany as long as he could, and
then we finally left in nineteen thirty nine and became
to the United States, though members of our family had
(23:56):
gone to Palestine a few years earlier. And I say
that is because I was raised in. The songs that
I was raised on as a toddler, as a child
were the songs of what we call the Heklutz movement,
the Jewish pioneer movement in Palestine that created a socialist
(24:20):
economy called kibwut siem collective settlements. It was a pattern
for a more modern civilization. And what we know is
that Israel had succeeded over the years in creating that
kind of society. I don't want to get into much
(24:40):
of that, but Zionism has been misdistorted in many ways,
and I can talk a little bit later about some
definitions of what Zionism means.
Speaker 2 (24:52):
For me.
Speaker 18 (24:52):
I don't apologize at all for being a Zionist. I
reject those who call themselves Zionists who are betraying fundamental
Jewish and humane rights.
Speaker 6 (25:09):
Robert, let me ask you, how did we how did well?
The aftermath of World War Two? Numerous displaced persons, mostly Jews,
with their homes destroyed, nowhere to go, some of them
actually on board ships trying to immigrate into the United States.
(25:35):
The United States, for all of our talk about loving
those refugees, would not allow them to land.
Speaker 18 (25:44):
Let me correct that you said post World War two.
It came just prior to World War Two, okay. And
I think the ship that you're talking about im intently
was this as a Saint Louis, which had nine hundred
and some Jewish passengers who had intended to land in
Florida and make the new life for themselves in the
(26:07):
United States. They were sent to Cuba and turned back
because at that time, don't forget, America was harboring nationalists,
that was the mindset, and wanted no part of invasions.
And what's interesting about that is that the US the
(26:30):
Saint Louis left Germany in the middle of May of
nineteen thirty nine, and the same time. The day that
it left, another ship left Rotterdam called the SS Stottendom.
My parents, my sister and I were on that ship
and we were able to come to the United States,
(26:53):
but only after we were somehow miraculously made our way
into what was then an American quota system. America. Didn't
matter if you were Jewish or not, whether you were
being persecuted or not. There was a number, a given
number of Germans, let's say, who could come to the
(27:17):
United States. Didn't matter. You could be Adolf Eichmann, you
could be you know, Himmler. But so we were able
miraculously to come to the United States. That was prior
to World War Two. And then after World War two,
then the doors opened for people who had survived the
(27:38):
Holocaust and were in displaced persons camps, number them family
members who came here.
Speaker 6 (27:46):
So after the British Mandate in forty eight forty eight,
numerous displaced Jews settled in what was then called Palestine,
in which they called Israel.
Speaker 18 (28:00):
Well, some of them, some of them had a lot
of them had come earlier during the war, had in
a sense maybe illegally immigrated there. Because the British Mandate
didn't allow them and had to work. Maybe if some
people have maybe read Leon Juris's classic book Exodus, in
which he talks about that.
Speaker 6 (28:22):
How long did or was there ever any peace between
the Palestinians and the Israelis after the establishment of the
state of Israel.
Speaker 18 (28:33):
Well, it depended where you were. For example, there was
in Haifa, which is great port city in Israel, there
was a wonderful interchange between I don't I'll refer them
Arabs and Jews, though Arabs could have been Christian Arabs,
Muslim Arabs. But let's say Arabs and Jews. It might
(28:58):
be interesting for people to note the very term anti
Semitism literally would mean one is anti Jewish and Arab,
because Arabs were Semites too right, and people sometimes forget that.
But that term has been locked into being anti Jewish.
But so there was cooperation. There were some Jews, a
(29:23):
minority of Orthodox Jews, who felt that their right to
the land and the boundaries of the land had been
determined biblically. I discard that, and that's nice faith, but
that's not how countries run in the world. The boundaries
(29:44):
were set by the United Nations, and unfortunately the Seven
Arab nations. When Israel was established in May fourteenth of
nineteen forty eight, they all launched an attacked and somehow,
I don't like to use the through a miracle, you know, haphazardly,
(30:06):
but Israel one that wore and we're able to continue
to establish their government.
Speaker 6 (30:14):
Before we take a caller, we have a caller online waiting.
It's almost it's almost an intractable position where both the
Israelis and the Muslims believe that they're in a land
that was given to them exclusively by God, the same God,
(30:36):
the same land, but God gave it twice, depending on
whose version you want to believe. And I think that's
part of the problem that we have here. Let's let's
go to line one to our scholar Phillis Phyllis, Are
you with us, Phillis, what's on your mind tonight?
Speaker 16 (30:57):
Well that.
Speaker 19 (31:03):
Going back to who is land? Oh it is or was?
Speaker 10 (31:13):
Uh?
Speaker 19 (31:15):
My understanding is that the Palestinians didn't until because what
we call now Palestine Isi was part of Syria. Is
that crud?
Speaker 18 (31:36):
You'll have to repeat that question.
Speaker 6 (31:37):
She's saying, there's her understanding, Rabbi, that the Palestinians really
didn't exist because at that time the land you're saying,
the land that they presently occupy in Gaza Phyllis well
was part of Syria. Yeah, did Did the Palestinian people exist?
Speaker 18 (31:58):
No, not by and there were Palestinian people, There was
no actual government, Palestinian government, Yes, the Palestinian You know.
First of all, a few hundred thousand Arabs lived in
what became the state of Israel, and then there were
the neighbors in Jordan, Syria and so on. But conflict
(32:21):
arose between the new State of Israel and those Arab states.
But the real question is, you know, we use the
term in America when we refer to our Native Americans
as the indigenous people. Both Arabs and Jews are indigenous
(32:43):
to that land. And I must say it's just as
another footnote. You know, when the Zionist movement, modern Zionist
movement developed in under Theodore Hertzel the end of the
eighteen nineties so on, there were a number of attempts
to award the Jewish people, this is prior to the Holocaust,
(33:06):
with land somewhere else where they could have their own sovereignty.
One of them was Uganda, and there were others, you know,
but there was an emotional tie. Some could call it
a religious tie. Let's call it an emotional tie to
that land, which was always known as the Holy Land,
(33:29):
holy because it was the place where the patriarchs and
matriarchs of the Jewish people, going back to the time
I won't say of Abraham, but the Abrahamic period. That
was the land to which they came from neighboring lands
and settled there. And there has been a Jewish presence
(33:53):
in that land now for the last four thousand years.
Speaker 6 (33:56):
Let me clarify a little bit. By Abrahamic religion, Abraham
you mean the what the Jews call the Torah, the
first five books of the Bible, Genesis, Exodus, Leviticus, Numbers,
and Deuteronomy, and what the Christians called the Old Testament,
the oldest part of the Old Testament, and what the
(34:17):
Uh Muslims also believe that they are descended from the
tribe of Abraham. So here we are all three Abrahamic religions,
h all all espousing peace is our central uh philosophy
(34:39):
and killing one another. Yeah, phyllis Uh Does that clarify
anything for you? What do you think?
Speaker 19 (34:47):
Well, you know, I'm looking at a quote huh al
Asad that said to Yasi Arifod, never forget, there's no
(35:08):
such thing as a Palestinian people. There's no Palestinian entity.
Palestine is an an integral part of Syria. So when
and this is like nineteen thirty six, well, no, that's
the later. But when the greatst Government proposed that that
(35:33):
part of Syria should be divided into Jewish Palestine and
Arab Palestine, that's the way it started, respects my understanding
of it.
Speaker 18 (35:48):
It really should not matter. Excuse me, Phyllis, It really
should not matter whether there was a group of people Palestinian.
The fact is that there arose in the neighboring country
and neighboring Israel, people who began to call themselves Palestinians
and wanted the establishment of a Palestinian state. That they
(36:11):
were entitled to do that. It would have been maybe
handier if they would have used some different name, but
they used that, you know, and because they refused, of
course to accept the legitimacy of Israel as a state, right.
Speaker 15 (36:29):
Right.
Speaker 18 (36:31):
And I must say that there have been radical Palestinians,
and there have been radical Ziatists. There have been people
who have just not abided by one of the things
(36:53):
the values taught to them in their faiths. For Jews Judaism,
but for Christian and Muslims, you know, it doesn't matter.
And what you might be also find interesting is that
Israel itself, the state of Israel, is made up today
of you know, seven eight million Jews. Out of that number,
(37:16):
I would say four to five million are what we
were call secularists. Are they do not abide by any
religion other than Judaism, but the Jewish religion is not
as central to their life as the Jewish culture, Jewish history,
Jewish peoplehood.
Speaker 6 (37:38):
Yes, Phyllis, does that clarify things for you?
Speaker 18 (37:46):
Yeah, well, maybe I'm confused.
Speaker 6 (37:49):
Or maybe confused as well. Thank you, phillisph thank you
so much for calling and we appreciate your participation. Thank
you very much. Well, let's get on to a little
bit more of the difficult situation tonight. And I want
(38:12):
to talk I'm going to use the G word. I'm
going to talk about genocide, okay, and genocide is the
and I'm reading the United Nations definition, the genocide is
a deliberate and systematic destruction of a national, ethnic, racial,
(38:35):
or religious group in whole or in part, as defined
by the United Nations Convention on Genocide. This definition includes
acts like killing causing serious bodily or mental harm, deliberately
inflicting conditions of life, calculated to bring about physical destruction,
(38:57):
imposing measures to prevent births, or forcibly transferring children of
the group. That's a complex definition, but let's look at
the elements of the offense, as we lawyers like to say,
the components of it. One, there has to be an
(39:18):
intent to destroy. The key element is whether the act
or accused of genocide has a specific intent to destroy you,
in whole or in part a protected group. The Convention
outlines four protected groups ethnical, racial, or religious groups. The
(39:41):
acts of genocide include acts like killing causing serious bodily
injury or mental harm, deliberate infliction of conditions of life,
calculated to bring about physical destruction, measures intended to prevent bursts,
and forcibly transferring children. So that's the legal definition of genocide.
(40:05):
And if we take a look at, you know, such
stalwarts for Israel, as Senator Bernie Sanders, a ju quite obviously,
who has now come out and said that he slammed
Israeli Prime Minister Benjamin not in Yahoo for denying the
(40:28):
food crisis in Gaza. Quote, he is a disgusting liar,
Sanders said Tuesday night during an appearance on CNN's The
Source with Caitlin Collins. Israel had a right to defend
itself from the terrible Hamas attack. But I think everybody
understands that in the last one and a half years
(40:50):
they have been waging a brutal, horrific, almost unprecedented type
of war, not just against Hamas but against the Palestinian people.
The Vermonts are at it. The Israeli military said Saturday
it would resume air drops in the Gaza strip. Quite frankly, folks,
I saw air drops. I had airdrop food dropped to
(41:14):
me while we were in Vietnam. It's an extremely inefficient
way to drop food, even to United States Marines who
have the ability to go out and pick it up
in the field with the enemy there. The Palestinians, if
that doesn't land in their area, are not going to
be able to pick it up. If the parachute doesn't open,
(41:37):
it bursts, it lands in the wrong place, it can
land and hurt and kill people. I mean parachuting in
food might make a good optic, but it is not
a way to alleviate anything.
Speaker 18 (41:51):
Let me say this, the term genocide really came to
the forefront when we talk about what Knots tried to do.
That term then has been applied at various places around
the world. The Israel has at various times been called
(42:14):
in the United Nations in apartheid state. It's been called
a genocidal state. You know all these It's been called racist.
Just you know, people toss these terms around. That does
not in any way mean that Israel what it has
done and is doing is right. I'm talking about the
(42:36):
government of Israel, but it would be better not to
use those terms. But I want to share with you
your definition that you gave is good. But there's an
organization which I have received communications with them for the
last twenty thirty years. It's made up of Jews and Arabs,
(42:57):
primarily Jews in Israel. It's called bit Selam, and they
just came out with something that I received two days
ago called our genocide an executive summary. This is why
basically primarily Israeli's and here's what they say, an examination
(43:17):
of Israel's policy in the Gaza Strip and its horrific outcomes,
together with statements by senior Israeli politicians and military commanders
about the goals of the attack, leads to the unequivocal
conconclusion that Israel is taking coordinated, deliberate action to destroy
(43:43):
Palestinian society in the Gaza Strip. In other words, Israel
is committing genocide against the Palestinians in the Gaza Strip.
And then it goes on to define it, and I
think that this well, you read the United Nations definition
says the term genocide this is by the group at Selim,
(44:05):
which is basically a Jewish Arab group in Israel, and
they have support of in Israel. The term genocide refers
to as socio historical and political phenomenon that has occurred
throughout human history. Since the UN Convention on the Prevention
(44:26):
and Punishment of the Crime of Genocide was signed in
nineteen forty eight and came into force in nineteen fifty one.
Genocide has also been recognized as one of the gravest
crimes in international law, involving acts committed with intent to
(44:46):
destroy and holar in part a national, ethnic, racial, or
religious group. I'm going to stop for a moment, say
we could point to groups in America white supremacists who
could be fall into that category perpetrating genocide. Let me
go on. Genocide is carried out through multiple and parallel
(45:10):
practices over time, with mass physical killing being only one
of them. Destroying living conditions, sometimes in concentration zones or camps,
systemically trying to prevent births, widespread sexual violence against group members,
(45:31):
or their mass expulsion can all be and have been
throughout history among the means used by states or ruling
authorities to destroy ethnic, national, racial, religious, and other groups. Accordingly,
genocidal acts are various actions intended to bring about the
(45:54):
destruction of a distinct group as part of a deliberate,
coordinated effort by a ruling authority. Both morally and legally,
genocide cannot be justified under any circumstance, including as an
act of self defense. If you read that carefully, you
(46:15):
could point to times in the history of the United
States when the indigenous population was subjected to exactly that kind.
Speaker 6 (46:26):
Of treatment that was called wounded k me.
Speaker 18 (46:29):
Yes, right, but you might say that it probably could
have better been called uh destroyed life.
Speaker 6 (46:40):
And as a result, I mean we can go back
into into indigenous genocide here for a long time. But
let's apparently we have somebody with a contrary point of view,
and well, I'm sure I must I must say it
pains me to see the people of Israel, the Jews
(47:03):
of Israel, which I have always supported, acting the same
way that Hitler in the Nazis nearly the same way,
by ghetto wising and starving and deliberately killing outrageous Palestinians.
Speaker 18 (47:19):
It's unconscionable and from my point of view, it is
a flagrant violation of Jewish teaching. They may call themselves,
you know, observant, Orthodox, whatever it is, but it is
a total disgrace and it's not Jewish.
Speaker 6 (47:42):
Let's take let's take a caller. We have Tim online too, Tim,
what's on your mind tonight?
Speaker 3 (47:52):
Good evening, Ellen, and Rabbi Cohn.
Speaker 18 (47:55):
Hello, Tim.
Speaker 3 (47:57):
I'm appalled and disgusted with the actions of mister Nettan Yahoo. However,
I think that it's all too easy to focus on
without who, at least in recent times, started the war,
(48:19):
Who was responsible for killing a thousand Jews? And I
think a lot of people I don't think that retaliation
is justified and think that these two neighboring lands should
treat each other with kindness and respect. And I just
(48:44):
think that we can't view the unfortunate starvation of Palestinians
and the problems in the Palestinian area without keeping in
mind how unthinkable and how tragic it was that Israel
was invaded, the attacks in an almost unthinkable manner in
(49:08):
a thousand Israelis and numerous hostages or families have been
forever affected by that.
Speaker 6 (49:17):
Tim, let me ask you this, what do you think
about the demonstrations in Israel today by Israelis who are
standing there demanding an end to the starvation, an end
to the oppression of the Palestinian people, without regard to
return to the hostages. Those are israel Israeli Jews. Don't
(49:43):
you think we ought to listen to their voices.
Speaker 9 (49:45):
I think.
Speaker 18 (49:47):
The numbers today are that's seventy percent of Israelis disagree
with what their government is doing. That's a pretty large percentage.
And I am very close members of my family are
out in protest two three nights a week, protesting what
their government is doing.
Speaker 6 (50:08):
Tim. Uh, We've got kind of a poor connection with
you here. Uh. We dropped. We we dropped, we dropped.
Your call Tim, If you call back in, UH, We'll
get you on. I'd be interested in uh what you
think of the UH situation? Is it? Is it possible
(50:28):
to be uh pro ISRAELI?
Speaker 5 (50:32):
Uh?
Speaker 6 (50:33):
Yet UH believes that the treatment of the Palestinians Uh
is unjustified. Okay, we still don't have Tim back. If
you'll call, If you'll call in, I'd like to hear
his position on whether or not somehow what Hamas did,
all those horrible things that we know they did, how
(50:56):
that just how that? Okay? Tim? Uh? If you can
hear me now, I'd like to hear your your opinion
on no matter how bad, no matter how badly that
Hamas acted, that it's gone way too far now and
that's not a justify. That's not to justify what Hamas did,
but the reaction has just been way over the top
(51:20):
and in violation.
Speaker 18 (51:21):
Before Tim, Before Tim, before you answer, I would like
to suggest that people read a book that came out
a few years ago. I think it's called The Olive Branch,
and it's about ways in which Arabs were Palestinians, but
Arabs living on what is called the West Bank were attacked,
(51:43):
their homes were destroyed, their olive fields were cut down
by people who said they were doing this in the
name of Judaism. You know, there are maps today that
refer to those the West Bank and Gaza as a
Judea in Scenaria, and they justify that saying because that
(52:06):
was the Biblical terminology. Well, I refer to them as
the West Bank and Gaza. They're not in places determined
by the Bible. But I just wanted to make you
suggest that all I think it's called The Olibriant. It's
a very moving book, Tim. Go ahead, Tim, Tim, what
do you think?
Speaker 20 (52:27):
Thank you for that, Rabbi. I will look forward to
reading that book. In response to Allen's question, of course
they should be listened to. I don't agree with any
of the continued policies of NET and Yahoo, But what
concerns me is the anti Semitism that arises from from
(52:47):
people that are talking about genocide without keeping in mind
how this started, why this started. And you can disagree
with NET and Yahoo. You can certainly demand that the
killing stop, but I think there's so much anti semitism
on college campuses and throughout America and the world as
(53:09):
a result of in what in Netanyahu's mind is retaliation.
You know, it's not. It's not just a campaign that
started out of hatred of a particular ethnic group or religion.
Speaker 14 (53:27):
It's it.
Speaker 20 (53:30):
Some response is justified. The question is how much and
when should it stop? And I think the three of
us are in agreement it should stop, but not at
the cost of Israel's survival and reputation.
Speaker 18 (53:47):
Well, I agree. You know, things that have to stop
today are hostages need to be returned. There has to
be diplomacy to bring about peaceful relationships. You know, if
somebody would have told me thirty years ago that there
would be peace accords between Israel and Egypt, you know,
(54:10):
but I remember seeing that on the White House lawn.
You know, Monochambagen and Nasser is striking a peace accord,
or Yasuk Rabin and the Arafat. Well, you know, diplomacy
is something that needs to guard guide our world today,
not warfare, not violence, and certainly not starvation. That's as
(54:38):
unreligious as anything can be.
Speaker 20 (54:42):
More people have died in the name of religion in
the world history than any other cause.
Speaker 6 (54:46):
Right, Rabbi, Is it possible to be anti Zionist and
not be anti Semitic.
Speaker 18 (55:00):
I believe it is. I would say that while I
am a Zionist and proud to be one, I am
anti right wing Zionism that has distorted the Zionist movement.
If I can just take a moment to share with you,
there are three things that I suggested are statements of definition,
(55:23):
and I'll be very brief. First, a Zionist, to me
is one who is committed to the existence and survival
of the State of Israel, and who translates that commitment
into tangible acts promoting that survival. Two, a Zionist is
one who takes the principles of the Declaration of Independence
(55:46):
of Israel seriously. That moment when David Ben Gurion read
to the world the principles on which the new Jewish
State would rest was a moment of commitment. There was
a particular way in which the founders of the Jewish
State hoped it would develop. That included the total respect
(56:07):
for religious sites, the holy places of Christians and Moslems
as well as Jews. It included total freedom and equality
of opportunity for the Arab minority, and included total freedom
of religion. And Third, as Zionist is one who lives
in Israel or in the diaspora who sees Israel as
(56:30):
the place where prophetic ideals can be put to work
in a realistic setting. And that's what I've been to
Israel many, many times, and one of the things that
always strikes me. It has the potential of being a
place where true justice and equality are practiced, and it's
(56:54):
a good model for the world. It's not providing that
model today.
Speaker 6 (57:00):
Be a flowering of democracy in the Middle East. Rabbi
who's responsible for being on the Let's talk about who
the right wing are? Is it the ultra Orthodox jew?
Speaker 18 (57:13):
Yes? Yes?
Speaker 6 (57:14):
And they also are exempt from military service, are they not?
Speaker 18 (57:20):
Men? Are if they are students of Jewish literature and
so on, they are exempt. They're trying to change that,
but that has not gone through, and that, you know,
angers the majority of Israelis. They say, why should why
should we go in? Why should our sons and daughters
go in in Israel? Both are subscribed, both are drafted
(57:45):
men and women. Why are those people exempt? Well, you know,
when Israel was established in nineteen forty eight, David Ben Gurion,
the very very wise and great man, you know, he said,
let me just turn over certain areas to quote that
religious group, so we don't have to bother with them,
(58:06):
so that, for example, marriage in Israel to Jews, that's
civil marriage, is not possible only under the aegis of
the religious group. So you know, I love America because
America theoretically has separation of church and state. It would
be great if Israel had separation of church and state.
Speaker 6 (58:30):
And had peace among all the people that lived there.
It's a beautiful place. The Israelis and the Palestinians to
some extent, have made it green. They've done amazing things
to make their other otherwise previously dry lands fertile. What
(58:54):
a wonderful place it would be if they could share
their holy sites and and finally learn to live together.
Ladies and gentlemen. I want to thank you for Rabbi
Hella Comb for joining us tonight, and our callers, Phyllis
and Tim. Thank you very much for calling in.
Speaker 18 (59:14):
Thanks Allan for creating this.
Speaker 6 (59:17):
Thank you, thank you Rabbi for being so brave as
to come in here and explain the situation to us.
I want to thank the Democratic Luncheon Club of sam
Bernardina for their sponsorship and anybody else who wishes to
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My back Down.
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