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Speaker 1 (00:00):
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Org, ABC News Radio. I'm Brian Schuk. The FBI is
getting involved in the fight between Texas Democrats and Republicans
over congressional redistricting. Texas Republican Governor Greg Abbott confirmed the
(00:33):
FBI as tracking Downhouse Democrats who fled the state to
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All states have very broad authority. This is recognized by
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President Trump says Russian President Putin would like to meet
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As a Friday deadline for Russia to start ceasefire talks approaches,
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(01:17):
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(01:39):
returning to Arlington National Cemetery.
Speaker 3 (01:42):
It's part of an effort by the Trump administration to
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(02:03):
ten million dollars to restore. I'm Chris Kragio.
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Three of the five soldiers shot at Fort Stewart in
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The Redlands Theater Festival presents their fifty third season, located
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Speaker 5 (06:06):
Oh bad, damn.
Speaker 10 (06:09):
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Just call that number and you'll get the information how
to do it, All right, ladies and gentlemen. About nineteen
sixty five, a song came along which is reminiscent. They say,
(08:20):
history doesn't necessarily repeat itself, but it rhymes. And here's
a little bit of a rhyme from nineteen sixty five
that I think is applicable to this situation today.
Speaker 12 (08:41):
The Eastern world. It is exploding violence, flaring bullets loading.
You're old enough to kill, but not for voting.
Speaker 10 (08:54):
You don't believe in more.
Speaker 12 (08:56):
Board's that gun, you child, and even that Jordan river
as body is floating.
Speaker 13 (09:02):
But you tell me and over and over again, my friend, I,
you don't believe we're on the eve of destruction.
Speaker 12 (09:23):
Don't you understand what I'm trying to say?
Speaker 10 (09:27):
And catch you feel the.
Speaker 12 (09:28):
Fears I'm feeling the day if the button is pushed,
there's no running away, There'll be no one to save.
Speaker 14 (09:37):
Will the world in a grave?
Speaker 12 (09:39):
Take a look around, your boy, it's bound this carrier, boy,
And you tell me.
Speaker 13 (09:46):
And over over again, my friend, I, you don't believe
we're on the deed of destruction.
Speaker 12 (10:07):
Yeah, my blood so mad. It was like coagulating. I'm
sitting here just contemplating.
Speaker 13 (10:16):
I can't with the truth. It knows no.
Speaker 12 (10:19):
Regulation, handful of senators don't pass legislation, and marches alone
can't bring in a creation when human respect is this
center of graydon This whole crazy world is just too frustrating.
Speaker 13 (10:36):
And you tell me over over again, my friend, I
don't believe we're on the evolved destructure.
Speaker 12 (11:01):
Think of all the hate there is in Red China.
Then take a look around to some Alabama. You may
leave here for four days in space, but when you return,
it's the same old place, the founding of the drones,
the bred and disgrace me. You can bury your dead,
(11:23):
but don't.
Speaker 2 (11:24):
Leave a trace.
Speaker 12 (11:25):
Hate your next dark neighbor, but don't forget to say
grace and tell me.
Speaker 7 (11:32):
Over and over over and.
Speaker 13 (11:35):
Over again, my friend, you don't believe we're on the
eve of destruction.
Speaker 12 (11:45):
No, n you don't believe we're on the eve of destruction.
Speaker 10 (11:59):
And there were we are, and here we are fifty
or more years later, and I think that history was
echoing to us. Oh tonight, ladies and gentlemen, I'm proud
to have on my show a very courageous man of man.
(12:20):
I've known for some time, Rabbi Hillo Kne, And you
might want to take a look at Rabbi Kne's Facebook
page if you haven't already. And what drew me to
it was his posting from a day or so ago,
and it says I've signed an open letter along with
(12:41):
over one thousand of my rabbinic and cantorial colleagues that
conveys my position and beliefs. The letter reads, the Jewish
people face a grave moral crisis threatening the very basis
of Judaism is the ethical voice that it's been since
the age of Israel's prophets. We cannot remain silent in
confronting it. As rabbis of Jewish leaders from across the world,
(13:07):
including the state of Israel, We're deeply committed to the
well being of the Jewish people. They go on to
talk about. He goes on to talk about the many
and remarkable achievements of Israel and extolling Israel and understand
its prioritization in protecting the lives of its soldiers and
(13:30):
its people in the ongoing battle against Aamaas, and we
mourn the loss of every soldier's life. But then it
says we cannot but we cannot condone the mass killings
of civilians, including a great many women, children and elderly,
or the use of starvation as a weapon of war.
(13:50):
We cannot keep silent. In another paragraph, I'm not going
to read the entire statement, but essentially it's an alarm clock.
So I'd like to turn it over to our guests.
Rabbi con what is your belief about the state of
the relationship, what the Israel is.
Speaker 14 (14:15):
Doing in the Gaza area, and.
Speaker 10 (14:22):
Is it or is it not very close or becoming
acts of genocide?
Speaker 15 (14:29):
Sir well, I don't want to get into the meaning
of genocide right at the moment, except to say, you know,
there are words that take on kind of different power
over a period of time, and people invoke those words,
sometimes somewhat recklessly. But for instance, in America, there were
(14:51):
people who were referred to as slave masters. Well they
were maybe employers. So it's a matter of what we
do with terminology. Let's get to that perhaps a little
bit later. But I think one needs to understand first
of all, the existence of Israel, how it came into being,
(15:12):
why it came into being, and where it stands today.
And before I get into that, I'd really like to
say that, you know, there's a lot of propaganda that
circulates in all realms of life today, and certainly it
affects the situation in the Middle East. I often said
(15:38):
after the events of October seventh, twenty twenty three, in
which AMAS attacked and killed you know, a couple thousand,
almost a couple thousand Israelis that if one were in power,
and this goes anywhere in the world, and one wanted
(15:59):
to keep one's power for a variety of reasons. One
of the best ways to do that is to be
involved in a war. I must say that with I
would not say due respect, but my concern about the
(16:21):
actions of Benjamin Natanyahu, Prime Minister of Israel, and those
who were in his coalition that allow him to remain
in power being involved in a war. And this in
no way justifies what Kamas did. I had a feeling
(16:43):
at the time that with Israel's very sophisticated intelligence service,
it would have made sense to know that they had
people in the Hamas camp keeping track of things and
probably let Nitanyahu know about that, and he decided to
(17:05):
ignore it because if he was challenged, he would not
only lose his position, but he would have to face
the corruption charges that endangered his.
Speaker 10 (17:21):
Whole life.
Speaker 15 (17:23):
He was accused of and it was facing severe corruption
charges And one way to, you know, stay in power
at a time is to get involved in all and
I think that the conflict in no way justifies what
Kamas did. It made me wonder, first of all, how
(17:46):
did Israel's very sophisticated intelligence, probably secondary to that of
the United States and maybe even surpassing that of the
United States in some ways? How did that elude him?
I don't think it did. And I think that those
who were in his very very right wing people who
(18:08):
I have no patience for whatsoever, that they have to
take some of the blame for what has happened since then.
That's a very very dangerous kind of point of view,
but I think it has some merit.
Speaker 10 (18:23):
Let me ask you this, Rabbi, And in no way
can it justify the acts of a moss and their
invasion of Israel, I mean, the kidnapping of babies, the
mutilation of human beings concertgoers. Yeah, completely innocent. They didn't
(18:45):
know if these people were Israeli's Americans or what. In fact,
they did take some Americans that I can't imagine what
kind of people still act like that, taking hostages and
hacking up people at any rate. Can you give us
a brief history of the creation of Israel, maybe going
(19:10):
back to modern times, not going back to biblical times,
but in modern times, how did we get in a
situation where we have these two warring parties fighting over
the same lamp.
Speaker 15 (19:22):
Well, first of all, I think one has to start
with the fact that in November of nineteen forty seven,
the United Nations, of which Nations were a member, came
up and approved of a partition plan, and that was
accepted to have a Jewish Arab state and so on,
(19:43):
and that was rejected even though it was passed by
a vast majority of the United Nations, by the seven
Arab nations that surrounded Israel, surrounded Palestine that became Israel,
and then the expiration of the British mandate in nineteen
forty eight gave rise to the declaration of Independence of Israel.
(20:07):
Much of that has to do with what we might
refer to as Zionism, and that's a term that has
been distorted, misunderstood, and in many ways bantered around these
days very recklessly modern Zionism, and I shared this with
(20:29):
the Congregation not a number of years ago. Modern Zionism
began in eighteen ninety seven when Theodore Hertzel, who was
a Viennese journalist and had an assimilated Jew, had his
Jewish consciousness tweaked by what was then an infamous trial,
(20:51):
the Dreyfus Trial in Paris, and he came to realize
that Jews would only be spared further down information and
oppression if they were able to achieve normalcy. And he
also came to understand that in the real world, a people,
not a religion. A people was treated normally only if
(21:17):
it had some sort of sovereignty, if it had a
national identity. And out of that came the modern Zionist movement,
and one of Hertzel's predecessors, Moses Hess, articulated that quite
clearly when he said that homelessness was the heart of
(21:38):
the Jewish problem, and he argued that Jews needed to
lead a normal national existence without soil. A man sinks
to the status of a parasite feeding on others. And
Hertzel and those he brought together in Basel, Switzerland about
(22:00):
one hundred and now twenty years ago eighteen ninety seven,
agreed with that. It happens that I grew up in
a Zionist home. My parents and my sister and I
were refugees from Nazi Germany. My father was a prominent
figure of the Zionist movement in Germany, which then became,
(22:25):
along with other Jewish movements, target of the Nazis. And
at the time, it's just this kind of a footnote.
At the time, my sister was born two years before
I was born. My parents had every intention of going
to Palestine and named my sister Aviva because they were
(22:46):
going to settle in the great Jewish city of Tel Aviv.
It happened that my father delayed our move to out
of Germany as long as he could, and then we
finally left in nineteen thirty nine and became to the
United States, though members of our family had gone to
(23:09):
Palestine a few years earlier. And I say this because
I was raised in. The songs that I was raised
on as a toddler as a child were the songs
of what we call the Heklutz movement, the Jewish pioneer
movement in Palestine that created a socialist economy called kibwut
(23:34):
siem collective settlements. It was a pattern for a more
modern civilization. And what we know is that Israel had
succeeded over the years in creating that kind of society.
I don't want to get into much of that, but
Zionism has been misdistorted in many ways, and I can
(23:59):
talk a little bit later about some definitions of what
Zionism means to me. I don't apologize at all for
being a Zionist. I reject those who call themselves Zionists,
who are betraying fundamental Jewish and humane rights.
Speaker 10 (24:22):
Robert, let me ask you, how did we how did
well the aftermath of World War Two? Numerous displaced persons,
mostly Jews, with their homes destroyed, nowhere to go, some
of them actually on board ships trying to immigrate into
(24:46):
the United States. The United States, for all of our
talk about loving those refugees, would not allow them to land.
Speaker 15 (24:57):
Let me correct that you said post World War TI too,
it became just prior to World War Two. And I
think the ship that you're talking about in intantly was
this SS Saint Louis, which had nine hundred and some
Jewish passengers who had intended to land in Florida and
(25:18):
make the new life for themselves in the United States.
They were sent to Cuba and turned back because at
that time, don't forget, America was harboring nationalists, that was
the mindset, and wanted no part of invasions. And what's
(25:39):
interesting about that is that the US the Saint Louis
left Germany in the middle of May of nineteen thirty nine,
and at the same time the day that it left,
another ship left Rotterdam. Called the ss Stottendom. My parents,
(26:00):
my sister and I were on that ship and we
were able to come to the United States, but only
after we were somehow miraculously made our way into the
what was then an American quota system. America. Didn't matter
if you were Jewish or not, whether you were being
(26:21):
persecuted or not. There was a number, a given number
of Germans, let's say, who could come to the United States.
Didn't matter. You could be Adolf Heichmann, you could be
you know, Himmler. But so we were able miraculously to
come to the United States. That was prior to World
(26:43):
War Two. And then after World War two, then the
doors opened for people who had survived the Holocaust and
were in displaced persons camps, number them family members who
came here.
Speaker 10 (26:58):
So after the British mandate in forty eight, in forty eight,
numerous displaced Jews settled in what was then called Palestine,
in which they called Israel.
Speaker 15 (27:13):
Well, some of them, some of them had a lot
of them had come earlier during the war, had in
a sense maybe illegally immigrated there because the British Mandate
didn't allow them and had to work. Maybe if some
people have maybe read leon Uris's classic book Exodus, in
which he talks about that.
Speaker 10 (27:35):
How long did or was there ever any peace between
the Palestinians and the Israelis after the establishment of the
state of Israel.
Speaker 15 (27:45):
Well, it depended where you were. For example, there was
in Haifa, which is great port city in Israel, there
was a wonderful interchange between our for them Arabs and Jews.
Though Arabs could have been Christian Arabs Muslim Arabs, but
(28:06):
let's say Arabs and Jews. It might be interesting for
people to note the very term anti Semitism literally would
mean one is anti Jewish and Arab, because Arabs were
Semites too, right, and people sometimes forget that. But that
term has been, you know, locked into being anti Jewish.
(28:28):
But so there was cooperation. There were some Jews, a
minority of Orthodox Jews, who felt that their right to
the land and the boundaries of the land had been
determined biblically. I discard that, and that's nice faith, but
(28:53):
that's not how countries run in the world. The boundaries
were set by the United Nations and unfortunately the Seven
Arab Nations. When Israel was established in May fourteenth of
nineteen forty eight, they all launched an attack and somehow,
(29:13):
I don't like to use the term miracle, you know, haphazardly,
but Israel won that war and we're able to continue
to establish their government.
Speaker 10 (29:27):
Before we take a caller, we have a caller online waiting.
It's almost it's almost an intractable position where both the
Israelis and the Muslims believe that they're in a land
that was given to them exclusively by God, the same God,
(29:49):
the same land, but God gave it twice, depending on
whose version you want to believe, And I think that's
part of the problem that we have here. Let's go
to line one to our collar, Phyllis, Phyllis. Are you
with us, yes, Phillis. What's on your mind tonight?
Speaker 16 (30:09):
Well, it's interesting that going back to who is land?
Oh it is or wash? My understanding is that the
(30:32):
Palestinians didn't exist until because what we call now Palestine
is was part of Helia. Is that correct?
Speaker 15 (30:49):
You'll have to repeat that question.
Speaker 10 (30:50):
You're saying, there's her understanding, Rabbi, that the Palestinians really
didn't exist because at that time the land you're saying,
the land that they presently occupy in Gaza Phyllis was
part of Syria. Did the Palestinian people exist.
Speaker 15 (31:11):
No, not by and there were Palestinian people, there was
no actual government, Palestinian government, yes, the Palestinian you know.
First of all, a few hundred thousand Arabs lived in
what became the state of Israel, and then there were
the neighbors in Jordan, Syria and so on. But conflict
(31:34):
arose between the new State of Israel and those Arab states.
But the real question is, you know, we use the
term in America when we refer to our Native Americans
as the indigenous people. Both Arabs and Jews are indigenous
(31:56):
to that land. And I must say it's just as
another foot know. You know, when the Zionist movement, modern
Zionist movement developed in under Theodore Hertzel the end of
the eighteen nineties so on, there were a number of
attempts to award the Jewish people, this is prior to
(32:17):
the Holocaust, with land somewhere else where they could have
their own sovereignty. One of them was Uganda, and there
were others, and you know, but there was an emotional tie,
some could call it a religious tie. Let's call it
an emotional tie to that land, which was always known
(32:39):
as the Holy Land, holy because it was the place
where the patriarchs and matriarchs of the Jewish people, going
back to the time I won't say of Abraham, but
the Abrahamic period, that was the land to which they
came from neighboring lands and settled there. And there has
(33:04):
been a Jewish presence in that land now for the
last four thousand years.
Speaker 10 (33:09):
Let me clarify a little bit. By Abrahamic religions, Abraham
you mean what the Jews call the Torah, the first
five books of the Bible, Genesis, Exodus, Leviticus, Numbers, and Deuteronomy,
and what the Christians called the Old Testament, the oldest
part of the Old Testament, and what the Muslims also
(33:33):
believe that they are descended from the tribe of Abraham.
So here we are, all three Abrahamic religions, all espousing
peace is our central philosophy and killing one another. Yeah, Phyllis,
(33:56):
does that clarify anything for you? What do you think?
Speaker 16 (33:59):
Well, you know, I'm looking at a quotation. It was
ant find it.
Speaker 14 (34:08):
It was.
Speaker 16 (34:10):
Cos al Asad that said to yasi Arafad never forget,
there's no such thing as a Palestinian people. There's no
Palestinian entity. Palestine is an is an integral part of Syria.
(34:34):
So when and this is like nineteen thirty six, well
that's later. But when the greats Settlement proposed that that
part of Syrias could be divided into Jewish Palestine and
Arab Palestine, that's the way it started, respects my understanding.
Speaker 15 (34:59):
Of it, it really should not matter, excuse me, Fellows,
It really should not matter whether there was a group
of people Palestinians. The fact is that there arose in
the neighboring country and neighboring Israel, people who began to
call themselves Palestinians and wanted the establishment of a Palestinian state.
(35:23):
That they were entitled to do that. It would have
been maybe handier if they would have used some different name,
but they used that, you know, and because they refused,
of course to accept the legitimacy of Israel as a state, right.
Speaker 17 (35:42):
Right.
Speaker 15 (35:44):
And I must say that there have been radical Palestinians,
and there have been radical Ziatists. There have been people
who have of just not abided by one of the
(36:05):
things the values taught to them. In their faiths for
Jews Judaism, but for Christians and Muslims, you know, it
doesn't matter. And what you might be also find interesting
is that Israel itself, the state of Israel, is made
up today of you know, seven eight million Jews. Out
(36:27):
of that number, I would say four to five million
are what we were call secularists. They are not. They
are they do not abide by any religion other than Judaism.
But the Jewish religion is not as central to their
life as the Jewish culture, Jewish history, Jewish peoplehood.
Speaker 14 (36:51):
Yes, Phillis, does that clarify things for you? Yeah, you
have confused.
Speaker 10 (37:02):
Or maybe confused as well. Thank you, philosopher. Thank you
so much for calling, and we appreciate your participation. Thank
you very much. Well, let's get on to a little
bit more of the difficult situation tonight. And I want
(37:25):
to talk I'm going to use the G word. I'm
going to talk about genocide, okay, and genocide is the
and I'm reading the United Nations definition, the genocide is
a deliberate and systematic destruction of a national, ethnic, racial,
(37:47):
or religious group in whole or in part, As defined
by the United Nations Convention on Genocide. This definition includes
acts like killing causing serious bodily or mental harm, deliberately
inflicting conditions of life calculated to bring about physical destruction,
(38:10):
imposing measures to prevent births, or forcibly transferring children to
the group. You know, that's a complex definition, but let's
look at the elements of the offense, as we lawyers
like to say, the components of it. One, there has
to be an intent to destroy. The key element is
(38:35):
whether the act or accused of genocide has a specific
intent to destroy you, in whole or in part a
protected group. The Convention outlines four protected groups, national, ethnical, racial,
or religious groups. The acts of genocide include acts like
(38:57):
killing causing serious bodily injury or mental harm, deliberate infliction
of conditions of life calculated to bring about physical destruction,
measures intended to prevent bursts, and forcibly transferring children. So
that's the legal definition of genocide. And if we take
(39:19):
a look at you know, such stalwarts for Israel as
Senator Bernie Sanders, a ju quite obviously, who has now
come out and said that he's slammed Israeli Prime Minister
Benjamin Notton, Yahoo for denying the food crisis in Gaza. Quote.
(39:45):
He is a disgusting liar, Sanders said Tuesday night during
an appearance on CNN's The Source with Caitlin Collins. Israel
had a right to defend itself from the terrible Hamas attack.
But I think everybody understands that in the last one
and a half years they have been waging a brutal, horrific,
(40:05):
almost unprecedented type of war, not just against a moss
but against the Palestinian people. The Vermont senator added. The
Israeli military said Saturday it would resume air drops in
the Gaza strip quite frankly, folks, I saw air drops.
I had air drop food dropped to me while we
(40:28):
were in Vietnam. It's an extremely inefficient way to drop food,
even to United States Marines who have the ability to
go out and pick it up in the field with
the enemy there. The Palestinians, if that doesn't land in
their area, are not going to be able to pick
it up. If the parachute doesn't open, it bursts, it
(40:51):
lands in the wrong place, it can land and hurt
and kill people. I mean, parachuting in food make a
good optic, but it's not a way to alleviate anything.
Speaker 15 (41:04):
Let me say this, the term genocide really came to
the forefront when we talk about what Nazism has tried
to do. That term then has been applied at various
places around the world. The Israel has at various times
(41:26):
been called in the United Nations in apartheid state, It's
been called a genocidal state, you know, all these It's
been called racist just you know, people toss these terms around.
That does not in any way mean that Israel what
it has done and is doing is right. I'm talking
(41:49):
about the government of Israel, but it would be better
not to use those terms. But I want to share
with you your definition that you gave is good. But
there is an organization which I have received communications with
them for the last twenty thirty years. It's made up
of Jews and Arabs, and primarily Jews in Israel. It's
(42:12):
called Bitselum, and they just came out with something that
I received two days ago called our genocide an executive summary.
This is why basically primarily Israeli's and here's what they say,
an examination of Israel's policy in the Gaza strip and
(42:35):
its horrific outcomes, together with statements by senior Israeli politicians
and military commanders about the goals of the attack, leads
to the unequivocal conconclusion that Israel is taking coordinated, deliberate
action to destroy Palestinian society in the Gaza Strip. In
(43:00):
other words, Israel is committing genocide against the Palestinians in
the Gaza Strip. Then it goes on to define it,
and I think that this well, you read the United
Nations definition says the term genocide this is by the
group at Selim, which is basically a Jewish Arab group
(43:22):
in Israel, and they have support in Israel. The term
genocide refers to as socio historical and political phenomenon that
has occurred throughout human history. Since the UN Convention on
the Prevention and Punishment of the Crime of Genocide was
(43:43):
signed in nineteen forty eight and came into force in
nineteen fifty one. Genocide has also been recognized as one
of the gravest crimes in international law, involving acts committed
with intent to destroy and holar in part a national, ethnic, racial,
(44:05):
or religious group. I'm going to stop for a moment
and say we could point to groups in America white
supremacists who could be fall into that category perpetrating genocide.
Speaker 1 (44:18):
Let me go on.
Speaker 15 (44:19):
Genocide is carried out through multiple and parallel practices over time,
with mass physical killing being only one of them. Destroying
living conditions, sometimes in concentration zones or camps systemically trying
to prevent births, widespread sexual violence against group members, or
(44:44):
their mass expulsion can all be and have been throughout
history among the means used by states or ruling authorities
to destroy ethnic, national, racial, religious, and other groups. Accordingly,
genocidal acts are various actions intended to bring about the
(45:07):
destruction of a distinct group as part of a deliberate,
coordinated effort by a ruling authority. Both morally and legally,
genocide cannot be justified under any circumstance, including as an
act of self defense. If you read that carefully, you
(45:28):
could point to times in the history of the United
States when the indigenous population was subjected to exactly that
kind of treatment.
Speaker 10 (45:39):
That was called wounded me.
Speaker 15 (45:42):
Yes, right, but you might say that it probably could
have better been called destroyed life.
Speaker 10 (45:53):
And as a result, I mean, we can go back
into indigenous genocide here for a long time. But let's
apparently we have somebody with a contrary point of view,
and I'm sure I must I must say it pains
me to see the people of Israel, the Jews of Israel,
(46:16):
which I have always supported, acting the same way that
Hitler in the Nazis nearly the same way, by ghetto
wising and starving and deliberately killing outrageous Palistinians.
Speaker 15 (46:32):
It's unconscionable and from my point of view, it is
a flagrant violation of Jewish teaching. They may call themselves,
you know, observant, Orthodox, whatever it is, but it is
a total disgrace and it's not Jewish.
Speaker 10 (46:55):
Let's take let's take a caller. We have Tim online too, Tim,
what's on your mind tonight?
Speaker 17 (47:05):
Good evening, Ellen, and Rabbi Cohn.
Speaker 15 (47:08):
Hello Tim.
Speaker 17 (47:10):
I'm apart from disgusted with the actions of mister Nett
and Yahoo, however, I think that it's all too easy.
Speaker 18 (47:22):
To focus on without.
Speaker 17 (47:28):
Who, at least in recent times, started the war, Who
was responsible for killing a thousand Jews? And I think
a lot of people I don't think that retaliation is
justified and thinks that these two neighboring lands should treat
(47:50):
each other with kindness and respect. And I just think
that we can't you the unfortunate starvation of Palestinians and
the problems in the Palestinian area without keeping in mind
(48:10):
how unthinkable and how tragic it was that Israel was
invaded the attacks in an almost unthinkable manner in a
thousands Israelis and numerous hostages in their families have been
forever affected by that.
Speaker 10 (48:30):
Tim, let me ask you this, what do you think
about the demonstrations in Israel today by Israelis who are
standing there demanding an end to the starvation, an end
to the oppression of the Palestinian people, without regard to
return to the hostages. Those are Israeli Israeli Jews. Don't
(48:56):
you think we ought to listen to their voices.
Speaker 15 (48:58):
I think the numbers today are that seventy percent of
Israelis disagree with what their government is doing. That's a
pretty large percentage. And I very close members of my
family are out in protests two three nights a week
protesting what their government is doing.
Speaker 10 (49:21):
Tim, We've got kind of a poor connection with you here. Uh.
We dropped, we dropped, We dropped Your call, Tim, if
you call back in. We'll get you on. I'd be
interested in what you think of the situation. Is it
is it possible to be pro Israeli yet believes that
(49:48):
the treatment of the Palestinians is unjustified? Okay, we still
don't have Tim back. If you'll call, if you'll call in,
I'd like to hear his position on whether or not
somehow what Hamas did, all those horrible things that we
know they did, How that just how that? Okay? Tim Uh,
(50:13):
if you can hear me now, I'd like to hear
your your opinion on no matter how bad, no matter
how badly that Hamas acted, that it's gone way too
far now and that's not a justify. That's not to
justify what Hamas did, but the reaction has just been
way over the top and in violation.
Speaker 15 (50:34):
Before Tim, Before Tim, before you answer, I would like
to suggest that people read a book that came out
a few years ago. I think it's called The Olive Branch,
and it's about ways in which Arabs were Palestinians, but
Arabs living on what it's called the West Bank were attacked,
(50:56):
their homes were destroyed, their olive fields were cut down
by people who said they were doing this in the
name of Judaism. You know, there are maps today that
refer to those the West Bank and Gaza as a
Judea in Samaria, and they justify that saying because that
(51:19):
was the Biblical terminology. Well, I refer to them as
the West Bank and Gaza. They're not places determined by
the Bible. But I just wanted to make it suggest
that all I think it's called The Olibriant. It's a
very moving book. Go ahead, Tim, Tim, what do you think?
Speaker 18 (51:40):
Thank you for that. I will look forward to reading
that book. In response to Allen's question, of course they
should be listened to. I don't agree with any of
the continued policies of met and Yahoo. But what concerns
me is the anti Semitism that arises from from people
(52:01):
that are talking about genocide without keeping in mind how
this started, why this started. And you can disagree with
net and Yahoo. You can certainly demand that the killing stop,
but I think there's so much anti semitism on college
campuses and throughout America and the world as a result
(52:24):
of what, in Netanyahu's mind is retaliation. You know, it's
it's not just a campaign that started out of hatred
of a particular ethnic group or religion. It's it's it.
Some response is justified. The question is how much and
(52:49):
when should it stop? And I think the three of
us are in agreement it should stop, but not at
the cost of Israel's survival and reputation.
Speaker 15 (53:00):
Well, I agree. You know, things that have to stop
today are hostages need to be returned. There has to
be diplomacy to bring about peaceful relationships. You know, if
somebody would have told me thirty years ago that there
would be peace accords between Israel and Egypt, you know,
(53:23):
but I remember seeing that on the White House lawn.
You know Menacham began and Naser is striking a peace accord,
or Yasuk Rabin and the Arafat. Well, you know, diplomacy
is something that needs to guard guide our world today,
not warfare, not violence, and certainly not starvation that seemed
(53:51):
as unreligious as anything can be.
Speaker 18 (53:55):
More people have died in the name of religion in
the world history than any other cause.
Speaker 10 (54:00):
Right, Rabbi. Is it possible to be anti Zionist and
not be anti Semitic? I believe it is.
Speaker 15 (54:15):
I would say that while I am a Zionist and
proud to be one. I am anti right wing Zionism
that has distorted the Zionist movement. If I can just
take a moment to share with you, there are are
three things that I suggested are statements of definition, and
(54:36):
I'll be very brief. First, a Zionist to me is
one who is committed to the existence and survival of
the State of Israel, and who translates that commitment into
tangible acts promoting that survival. Two, a Zionist is one
who takes the principles of the Declaration of Independence of
(55:00):
Israel seriously. That moment when David Ben Gurion read to
the world the principles on which the new Jewish State
would rest was a moment of commitment. There was a
particular way in which the founders of the Jewish State
hoped it would develop. That included the total respect for
(55:20):
religious sites, the holy places of Christians and Moslems as
well as Jews. It included total freedom and equality of
opportunity for the Arab minority, and included total freedom of religion.
And Third, as Zionists, is one who lives in Israel
or in the diaspora who sees Israel as the place
(55:44):
where prophetic ideals can be put to work in a
realistic setting. And that's what I've been Israel many, many times,
and one of the things that always strikes me. It
has the potential of being a place where true justice
and equality are practiced, and it's a good model for
(56:08):
the world. It's not providing that model today.
Speaker 10 (56:12):
Wouldn't that be a flowering of democracy in the Middle East?
Rabbi who's responsible for being on the Let's talk about
who the right wing are? Is it the ultra orthodox Jews?
Speaker 15 (56:26):
Yes?
Speaker 10 (56:26):
Yes? And they also are exempt from military service, are
they not?
Speaker 14 (56:33):
Men?
Speaker 15 (56:33):
Are if they are students of Jewish literature and so on,
they are exempt. They're trying to change that, but that
has not gone through, and that, you know, angers the
majority of Israelis. They say, why should our why should
we go in? Why should our sons and daughters go in?
In Israel? Both are subscribed, both are drafted men and women.
(57:00):
Why are those people exempt? Well, you know, when Israel
was established in nineteen forty eight, David Ben Gurion, the
very very wise and great man, you know, he said,
let me just turn over certain areas to quote that
religious group, so we don't have to bother with them,
so that, for example, marriage in Israel to Jews, that's
(57:25):
civil marriage, is not possible only under the aegis of
the religious group. So you know, I love America because
America theoretically has separation of church and state. It would
be great if Israel had separation of church and.
Speaker 10 (57:41):
State and had peace among all the people that lived there. Right,
it's a beautiful place. The Israelis and the Palestinians to
some extent, have made it green. They've done amazing things
to make their other otherwise previously dry lands fertile. What
(58:07):
a wonderful place it would be if they could share
their holy sites and and finally learn learn to live together.
Ladies and gentlemen. I want to thank you for Rabbi
Hella Comb for joining us tonight, and our callers, Phillis
and Tim. Thank you very much for calling in. Thanks
(58:28):
Alan for creating this. Thank you, thank you Rabbi for
being so brave as to come in here and explain
the situation to us. I want to thank the Democratic
Luncheon Club of sam Bernardina for their sponsorship, and anybody
else who wishes to sponsor this show, please call the
Democratic luncheon club. We can arrange that this is Alan
Bartleman for the reformers saying good night.
Speaker 13 (58:51):
Me down on.
Speaker 2 (58:54):
My back, down.
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Org, ABC News Radio. I'm Brian Schuk. The FBI is
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(00:33):
FBI as tracking Downhouse Democrats who fled the state to
stop a vote on GOP led redistricting efforts. Meantime, Senator
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Speaker 3 (00:45):
All states have very broad authority. This is recognized by
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Speaker 2 (00:54):
President Trump says Russian President Putin would like to meet
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As a Friday deadline for Russia to start ceasefire talks approaches,
Trump told reporters it's not necessary for Putin to meet
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(01:17):
is honoring nearly one hundred past Purple Heart recipients. Trump
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veterans who gave their Purple Heart medals to the President
following the assassination attempt on his life last year. A
Confederate memorial that was removed in twenty twenty three is
(01:39):
returning to Arlington National Cemetery.
Speaker 3 (01:42):
It's part of an effort by the Trump administration to
bring back statues that honor the Confederacy. The Reconciliation Monument
features a bronze statue of a woman standing on a
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of slavery underneath her. The monument was initially debuted in
nineteen fourteen by Confederate veteran Moses Ezekiel. It'll cost nearly
(02:03):
ten million dollars to restore. I'm Chris Kragio.
Speaker 2 (02:06):
Three of the five soldiers shot at Fort Stewart in
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Speaker 4 (02:16):
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Speaker 9 (05:34):
The Redlands Theater Festival presents their fifty third season, located
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Speaker 5 (06:06):
Oh bad, damn.
Speaker 10 (06:09):
All right, all right, Good evening, San Bernardino. Good evening, world.
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Just call that number and you'll get the information how
to do it, All right, ladies and gentlemen. About nineteen
sixty five, a song came along which is reminiscent. They say,
(08:20):
history doesn't necessarily repeat itself, but it rhymes. And here's
a little bit of a rhyme from nineteen sixty five
that I think is applicable to this situation today.
Speaker 12 (08:41):
The Eastern world. It is exploding violence, flaring bullets loading.
You're old enough to kill, but not for voting.
Speaker 10 (08:54):
You don't believe in more.
Speaker 12 (08:56):
Board's that gun, you child, and even that Jordan river
as body is floating.
Speaker 13 (09:02):
But you tell me and over and over again, my friend, I,
you don't believe we're on the eve of destruction.
Speaker 12 (09:23):
Don't you understand what I'm trying to say?
Speaker 10 (09:27):
And catch you feel the.
Speaker 12 (09:28):
Fears I'm feeling the day if the button is pushed,
there's no running away, There'll be no one to save.
Speaker 14 (09:37):
Will the world in a grave?
Speaker 12 (09:39):
Take a look around, your boy, it's bound this carrier, boy,
And you tell me.
Speaker 13 (09:46):
And over over again, my friend, I, you don't believe
we're on the deed of destruction.
Speaker 12 (10:07):
Yeah, my blood so mad. It was like coagulating. I'm
sitting here just contemplating.
Speaker 13 (10:16):
I can't with the truth. It knows no.
Speaker 12 (10:19):
Regulation, handful of senators don't pass legislation, and marches alone
can't bring in a creation when human respect is this
center of graydon This whole crazy world is just too frustrating.
Speaker 13 (10:36):
And you tell me over over again, my friend, I
don't believe we're on the evolved destructure.
Speaker 12 (11:01):
Think of all the hate there is in Red China.
Then take a look around to some Alabama. You may
leave here for four days in space, but when you return,
it's the same old place, the founding of the drones,
the bred and disgrace me. You can bury your dead,
(11:23):
but don't.
Speaker 2 (11:24):
Leave a trace.
Speaker 12 (11:25):
Hate your next dark neighbor, but don't forget to say
grace and tell me.
Speaker 7 (11:32):
Over and over over and.
Speaker 13 (11:35):
Over again, my friend, you don't believe we're on the
eve of destruction.
Speaker 12 (11:45):
No, n you don't believe we're on the eve of destruction.
Speaker 10 (11:59):
And there were we are, and here we are fifty
or more years later, and I think that history was
echoing to us. Oh tonight, ladies and gentlemen, I'm proud
to have on my show a very courageous man of man.
(12:20):
I've known for some time, Rabbi Hillo Kne, And you
might want to take a look at Rabbi Kne's Facebook
page if you haven't already. And what drew me to
it was his posting from a day or so ago,
and it says I've signed an open letter along with
(12:41):
over one thousand of my rabbinic and cantorial colleagues that
conveys my position and beliefs. The letter reads, the Jewish
people face a grave moral crisis threatening the very basis
of Judaism is the ethical voice that it's been since
the age of Israel's prophets. We cannot remain silent in
confronting it. As rabbis of Jewish leaders from across the world,
(13:07):
including the state of Israel, We're deeply committed to the
well being of the Jewish people. They go on to
talk about. He goes on to talk about the many
and remarkable achievements of Israel and extolling Israel and understand
its prioritization in protecting the lives of its soldiers and
(13:30):
its people in the ongoing battle against Aamaas, and we
mourn the loss of every soldier's life. But then it
says we cannot but we cannot condone the mass killings
of civilians, including a great many women, children and elderly,
or the use of starvation as a weapon of war.
(13:50):
We cannot keep silent. In another paragraph, I'm not going
to read the entire statement, but essentially it's an alarm clock.
So I'd like to turn it over to our guests.
Rabbi con what is your belief about the state of
the relationship, what the Israel is.
Speaker 14 (14:15):
Doing in the Gaza area, and.
Speaker 10 (14:22):
Is it or is it not very close or becoming
acts of genocide?
Speaker 15 (14:29):
Sir well, I don't want to get into the meaning
of genocide right at the moment, except to say, you know,
there are words that take on kind of different power
over a period of time, and people invoke those words,
sometimes somewhat recklessly. But for instance, in America, there were
(14:51):
people who were referred to as slave masters. Well they
were maybe employers. So it's a matter of what we
do with terminology. Let's get to that perhaps a little
bit later. But I think one needs to understand first
of all, the existence of Israel, how it came into being,
(15:12):
why it came into being, and where it stands today.
And before I get into that, I'd really like to
say that, you know, there's a lot of propaganda that
circulates in all realms of life today, and certainly it
affects the situation in the Middle East. I often said
(15:38):
after the events of October seventh, twenty twenty three, in
which AMAS attacked and killed you know, a couple thousand,
almost a couple thousand Israelis that if one were in power,
and this goes anywhere in the world, and one wanted
(15:59):
to keep one's power for a variety of reasons. One
of the best ways to do that is to be
involved in a war. I must say that with I
would not say due respect, but my concern about the
(16:21):
actions of Benjamin Natanyahu, Prime Minister of Israel, and those
who were in his coalition that allow him to remain
in power being involved in a war. And this in
no way justifies what Kamas did. I had a feeling
(16:43):
at the time that with Israel's very sophisticated intelligence service,
it would have made sense to know that they had
people in the Hamas camp keeping track of things and
probably let Nitanyahu know about that, and he decided to
(17:05):
ignore it because if he was challenged, he would not
only lose his position, but he would have to face
the corruption charges that endangered his.
Speaker 10 (17:21):
Whole life.
Speaker 15 (17:23):
He was accused of and it was facing severe corruption
charges And one way to, you know, stay in power
at a time is to get involved in all and
I think that the conflict in no way justifies what
Kamas did. It made me wonder, first of all, how
(17:46):
did Israel's very sophisticated intelligence, probably secondary to that of
the United States and maybe even surpassing that of the
United States in some ways? How did that elude him?
I don't think it did. And I think that those
who were in his very very right wing people who
(18:08):
I have no patience for whatsoever, that they have to
take some of the blame for what has happened since then.
That's a very very dangerous kind of point of view,
but I think it has some merit.
Speaker 10 (18:23):
Let me ask you this, Rabbi, And in no way
can it justify the acts of a moss and their
invasion of Israel, I mean, the kidnapping of babies, the
mutilation of human beings concertgoers. Yeah, completely innocent. They didn't
(18:45):
know if these people were Israeli's Americans or what. In fact,
they did take some Americans that I can't imagine what
kind of people still act like that, taking hostages and
hacking up people at any rate. Can you give us
a brief history of the creation of Israel, maybe going
(19:10):
back to modern times, not going back to biblical times,
but in modern times, how did we get in a
situation where we have these two warring parties fighting over
the same lamp.
Speaker 15 (19:22):
Well, first of all, I think one has to start
with the fact that in November of nineteen forty seven,
the United Nations, of which Nations were a member, came
up and approved of a partition plan, and that was
accepted to have a Jewish Arab state and so on,
(19:43):
and that was rejected even though it was passed by
a vast majority of the United Nations, by the seven
Arab nations that surrounded Israel, surrounded Palestine that became Israel,
and then the expiration of the British mandate in nineteen
forty eight gave rise to the declaration of Independence of Israel.
(20:07):
Much of that has to do with what we might
refer to as Zionism, and that's a term that has
been distorted, misunderstood, and in many ways bantered around these
days very recklessly modern Zionism, and I shared this with
(20:29):
the Congregation not a number of years ago. Modern Zionism
began in eighteen ninety seven when Theodore Hertzel, who was
a Viennese journalist and had an assimilated Jew, had his
Jewish consciousness tweaked by what was then an infamous trial,
(20:51):
the Dreyfus Trial in Paris, and he came to realize
that Jews would only be spared further down information and
oppression if they were able to achieve normalcy. And he
also came to understand that in the real world, a people,
not a religion. A people was treated normally only if
(21:17):
it had some sort of sovereignty, if it had a
national identity. And out of that came the modern Zionist movement,
and one of Hertzel's predecessors, Moses Hess, articulated that quite
clearly when he said that homelessness was the heart of
(21:38):
the Jewish problem, and he argued that Jews needed to
lead a normal national existence without soil. A man sinks
to the status of a parasite feeding on others. And
Hertzel and those he brought together in Basel, Switzerland about
(22:00):
one hundred and now twenty years ago eighteen ninety seven,
agreed with that. It happens that I grew up in
a Zionist home. My parents and my sister and I
were refugees from Nazi Germany. My father was a prominent
figure of the Zionist movement in Germany, which then became,
(22:25):
along with other Jewish movements, target of the Nazis. And
at the time, it's just this kind of a footnote.
At the time, my sister was born two years before
I was born. My parents had every intention of going
to Palestine and named my sister Aviva because they were
(22:46):
going to settle in the great Jewish city of Tel Aviv.
It happened that my father delayed our move to out
of Germany as long as he could, and then we
finally left in nineteen thirty nine and became to the
United States, though members of our family had gone to
(23:09):
Palestine a few years earlier. And I say this because
I was raised in. The songs that I was raised
on as a toddler as a child were the songs
of what we call the Heklutz movement, the Jewish pioneer
movement in Palestine that created a socialist economy called kibwut
(23:34):
siem collective settlements. It was a pattern for a more
modern civilization. And what we know is that Israel had
succeeded over the years in creating that kind of society.
I don't want to get into much of that, but
Zionism has been misdistorted in many ways, and I can
(23:59):
talk a little bit later about some definitions of what
Zionism means to me. I don't apologize at all for
being a Zionist. I reject those who call themselves Zionists,
who are betraying fundamental Jewish and humane rights.
Speaker 10 (24:22):
Robert, let me ask you, how did we how did
well the aftermath of World War Two? Numerous displaced persons,
mostly Jews, with their homes destroyed, nowhere to go, some
of them actually on board ships trying to immigrate into
(24:46):
the United States. The United States, for all of our
talk about loving those refugees, would not allow them to land.
Speaker 15 (24:57):
Let me correct that you said post World War TI too,
it became just prior to World War Two. And I
think the ship that you're talking about in intantly was
this SS Saint Louis, which had nine hundred and some
Jewish passengers who had intended to land in Florida and
(25:18):
make the new life for themselves in the United States.
They were sent to Cuba and turned back because at
that time, don't forget, America was harboring nationalists, that was
the mindset, and wanted no part of invasions. And what's
(25:39):
interesting about that is that the US the Saint Louis
left Germany in the middle of May of nineteen thirty nine,
and at the same time the day that it left,
another ship left Rotterdam. Called the ss Stottendom. My parents,
(26:00):
my sister and I were on that ship and we
were able to come to the United States, but only
after we were somehow miraculously made our way into the
what was then an American quota system. America. Didn't matter
if you were Jewish or not, whether you were being
(26:21):
persecuted or not. There was a number, a given number
of Germans, let's say, who could come to the United States.
Didn't matter. You could be Adolf Heichmann, you could be
you know, Himmler. But so we were able miraculously to
come to the United States. That was prior to World
(26:43):
War Two. And then after World War two, then the
doors opened for people who had survived the Holocaust and
were in displaced persons camps, number them family members who
came here.
Speaker 10 (26:58):
So after the British mandate in forty eight, in forty eight,
numerous displaced Jews settled in what was then called Palestine,
in which they called Israel.
Speaker 15 (27:13):
Well, some of them, some of them had a lot
of them had come earlier during the war, had in
a sense maybe illegally immigrated there because the British Mandate
didn't allow them and had to work. Maybe if some
people have maybe read leon Uris's classic book Exodus, in
which he talks about that.
Speaker 10 (27:35):
How long did or was there ever any peace between
the Palestinians and the Israelis after the establishment of the
state of Israel.
Speaker 15 (27:45):
Well, it depended where you were. For example, there was
in Haifa, which is great port city in Israel, there
was a wonderful interchange between our for them Arabs and Jews.
Though Arabs could have been Christian Arabs Muslim Arabs, but
(28:06):
let's say Arabs and Jews. It might be interesting for
people to note the very term anti Semitism literally would
mean one is anti Jewish and Arab, because Arabs were
Semites too, right, and people sometimes forget that. But that
term has been, you know, locked into being anti Jewish.
(28:28):
But so there was cooperation. There were some Jews, a
minority of Orthodox Jews, who felt that their right to
the land and the boundaries of the land had been
determined biblically. I discard that, and that's nice faith, but
(28:53):
that's not how countries run in the world. The boundaries
were set by the United Nations and unfortunately the Seven
Arab Nations. When Israel was established in May fourteenth of
nineteen forty eight, they all launched an attack and somehow,
(29:13):
I don't like to use the term miracle, you know, haphazardly,
but Israel won that war and we're able to continue
to establish their government.
Speaker 10 (29:27):
Before we take a caller, we have a caller online waiting.
It's almost it's almost an intractable position where both the
Israelis and the Muslims believe that they're in a land
that was given to them exclusively by God, the same God,
(29:49):
the same land, but God gave it twice, depending on
whose version you want to believe, And I think that's
part of the problem that we have here. Let's go
to line one to our collar, Phyllis, Phyllis. Are you
with us, yes, Phillis. What's on your mind tonight?
Speaker 16 (30:09):
Well, it's interesting that going back to who is land?
Oh it is or wash? My understanding is that the
(30:32):
Palestinians didn't exist until because what we call now Palestine
is was part of Helia. Is that correct?
Speaker 15 (30:49):
You'll have to repeat that question.
Speaker 10 (30:50):
You're saying, there's her understanding, Rabbi, that the Palestinians really
didn't exist because at that time the land you're saying,
the land that they presently occupy in Gaza Phyllis was
part of Syria. Did the Palestinian people exist.
Speaker 15 (31:11):
No, not by and there were Palestinian people, there was
no actual government, Palestinian government, yes, the Palestinian you know.
First of all, a few hundred thousand Arabs lived in
what became the state of Israel, and then there were
the neighbors in Jordan, Syria and so on. But conflict
(31:34):
arose between the new State of Israel and those Arab states.
But the real question is, you know, we use the
term in America when we refer to our Native Americans
as the indigenous people. Both Arabs and Jews are indigenous
(31:56):
to that land. And I must say it's just as
another foot know. You know, when the Zionist movement, modern
Zionist movement developed in under Theodore Hertzel the end of
the eighteen nineties so on, there were a number of
attempts to award the Jewish people, this is prior to
(32:17):
the Holocaust, with land somewhere else where they could have
their own sovereignty. One of them was Uganda, and there
were others, and you know, but there was an emotional tie,
some could call it a religious tie. Let's call it
an emotional tie to that land, which was always known
(32:39):
as the Holy Land, holy because it was the place
where the patriarchs and matriarchs of the Jewish people, going
back to the time I won't say of Abraham, but
the Abrahamic period, that was the land to which they
came from neighboring lands and settled there. And there has
(33:04):
been a Jewish presence in that land now for the
last four thousand years.
Speaker 10 (33:09):
Let me clarify a little bit. By Abrahamic religions, Abraham
you mean what the Jews call the Torah, the first
five books of the Bible, Genesis, Exodus, Leviticus, Numbers, and Deuteronomy,
and what the Christians called the Old Testament, the oldest
part of the Old Testament, and what the Muslims also
(33:33):
believe that they are descended from the tribe of Abraham.
So here we are, all three Abrahamic religions, all espousing
peace is our central philosophy and killing one another. Yeah, Phyllis,
(33:56):
does that clarify anything for you? What do you think?
Speaker 16 (33:59):
Well, you know, I'm looking at a quotation. It was
ant find it.
Speaker 14 (34:08):
It was.
Speaker 16 (34:10):
Cos al Asad that said to yasi Arafad never forget,
there's no such thing as a Palestinian people. There's no
Palestinian entity. Palestine is an is an integral part of Syria.
(34:34):
So when and this is like nineteen thirty six, well
that's later. But when the greats Settlement proposed that that
part of Syrias could be divided into Jewish Palestine and
Arab Palestine, that's the way it started, respects my understanding.
Speaker 15 (34:59):
Of it, it really should not matter, excuse me, Fellows,
It really should not matter whether there was a group
of people Palestinians. The fact is that there arose in
the neighboring country and neighboring Israel, people who began to
call themselves Palestinians and wanted the establishment of a Palestinian state.
(35:23):
That they were entitled to do that. It would have
been maybe handier if they would have used some different name,
but they used that, you know, and because they refused,
of course to accept the legitimacy of Israel as a state, right.
Speaker 17 (35:42):
Right.
Speaker 15 (35:44):
And I must say that there have been radical Palestinians,
and there have been radical Ziatists. There have been people
who have of just not abided by one of the
(36:05):
things the values taught to them. In their faiths for
Jews Judaism, but for Christians and Muslims, you know, it
doesn't matter. And what you might be also find interesting
is that Israel itself, the state of Israel, is made
up today of you know, seven eight million Jews. Out
(36:27):
of that number, I would say four to five million
are what we were call secularists. They are not. They
are they do not abide by any religion other than Judaism.
But the Jewish religion is not as central to their
life as the Jewish culture, Jewish history, Jewish peoplehood.
Speaker 14 (36:51):
Yes, Phillis, does that clarify things for you? Yeah, you
have confused.
Speaker 10 (37:02):
Or maybe confused as well. Thank you, philosopher. Thank you
so much for calling, and we appreciate your participation. Thank
you very much. Well, let's get on to a little
bit more of the difficult situation tonight. And I want
(37:25):
to talk I'm going to use the G word. I'm
going to talk about genocide, okay, and genocide is the
and I'm reading the United Nations definition, the genocide is
a deliberate and systematic destruction of a national, ethnic, racial,
(37:47):
or religious group in whole or in part, As defined
by the United Nations Convention on Genocide. This definition includes
acts like killing causing serious bodily or mental harm, deliberately
inflicting conditions of life calculated to bring about physical destruction,
(38:10):
imposing measures to prevent births, or forcibly transferring children to
the group. You know, that's a complex definition, but let's
look at the elements of the offense, as we lawyers
like to say, the components of it. One, there has
to be an intent to destroy. The key element is
(38:35):
whether the act or accused of genocide has a specific
intent to destroy you, in whole or in part a
protected group. The Convention outlines four protected groups, national, ethnical, racial,
or religious groups. The acts of genocide include acts like
(38:57):
killing causing serious bodily injury or mental harm, deliberate infliction
of conditions of life calculated to bring about physical destruction,
measures intended to prevent bursts, and forcibly transferring children. So
that's the legal definition of genocide. And if we take
(39:19):
a look at you know, such stalwarts for Israel as
Senator Bernie Sanders, a ju quite obviously, who has now
come out and said that he's slammed Israeli Prime Minister
Benjamin Notton, Yahoo for denying the food crisis in Gaza. Quote.
(39:45):
He is a disgusting liar, Sanders said Tuesday night during
an appearance on CNN's The Source with Caitlin Collins. Israel
had a right to defend itself from the terrible Hamas attack.
But I think everybody understands that in the last one
and a half years they have been waging a brutal, horrific,
(40:05):
almost unprecedented type of war, not just against a moss
but against the Palestinian people. The Vermont senator added. The
Israeli military said Saturday it would resume air drops in
the Gaza strip quite frankly, folks, I saw air drops.
I had air drop food dropped to me while we
(40:28):
were in Vietnam. It's an extremely inefficient way to drop food,
even to United States Marines who have the ability to
go out and pick it up in the field with
the enemy there. The Palestinians, if that doesn't land in
their area, are not going to be able to pick
it up. If the parachute doesn't open, it bursts, it
(40:51):
lands in the wrong place, it can land and hurt
and kill people. I mean, parachuting in food make a
good optic, but it's not a way to alleviate anything.
Speaker 15 (41:04):
Let me say this, the term genocide really came to
the forefront when we talk about what Nazism has tried
to do. That term then has been applied at various
places around the world. The Israel has at various times
(41:26):
been called in the United Nations in apartheid state, It's
been called a genocidal state, you know, all these It's
been called racist just you know, people toss these terms around.
That does not in any way mean that Israel what
it has done and is doing is right. I'm talking
(41:49):
about the government of Israel, but it would be better
not to use those terms. But I want to share
with you your definition that you gave is good. But
there is an organization which I have received communications with
them for the last twenty thirty years. It's made up
of Jews and Arabs, and primarily Jews in Israel. It's
(42:12):
called Bitselum, and they just came out with something that
I received two days ago called our genocide an executive summary.
This is why basically primarily Israeli's and here's what they say,
an examination of Israel's policy in the Gaza strip and
(42:35):
its horrific outcomes, together with statements by senior Israeli politicians
and military commanders about the goals of the attack, leads
to the unequivocal conconclusion that Israel is taking coordinated, deliberate
action to destroy Palestinian society in the Gaza Strip. In
(43:00):
other words, Israel is committing genocide against the Palestinians in
the Gaza Strip. Then it goes on to define it,
and I think that this well, you read the United
Nations definition says the term genocide this is by the
group at Selim, which is basically a Jewish Arab group
(43:22):
in Israel, and they have support in Israel. The term
genocide refers to as socio historical and political phenomenon that
has occurred throughout human history. Since the UN Convention on
the Prevention and Punishment of the Crime of Genocide was
(43:43):
signed in nineteen forty eight and came into force in
nineteen fifty one. Genocide has also been recognized as one
of the gravest crimes in international law, involving acts committed
with intent to destroy and holar in part a national, ethnic, racial,
(44:05):
or religious group. I'm going to stop for a moment
and say we could point to groups in America white
supremacists who could be fall into that category perpetrating genocide.
Speaker 1 (44:18):
Let me go on.
Speaker 15 (44:19):
Genocide is carried out through multiple and parallel practices over time,
with mass physical killing being only one of them. Destroying
living conditions, sometimes in concentration zones or camps systemically trying
to prevent births, widespread sexual violence against group members, or
(44:44):
their mass expulsion can all be and have been throughout
history among the means used by states or ruling authorities
to destroy ethnic, national, racial, religious, and other groups. Accordingly,
genocidal acts are various actions intended to bring about the
(45:07):
destruction of a distinct group as part of a deliberate,
coordinated effort by a ruling authority. Both morally and legally,
genocide cannot be justified under any circumstance, including as an
act of self defense. If you read that carefully, you
(45:28):
could point to times in the history of the United
States when the indigenous population was subjected to exactly that
kind of treatment.
Speaker 10 (45:39):
That was called wounded me.
Speaker 15 (45:42):
Yes, right, but you might say that it probably could
have better been called destroyed life.
Speaker 10 (45:53):
And as a result, I mean, we can go back
into indigenous genocide here for a long time. But let's
apparently we have somebody with a contrary point of view,
and I'm sure I must I must say it pains
me to see the people of Israel, the Jews of Israel,
(46:16):
which I have always supported, acting the same way that
Hitler in the Nazis nearly the same way, by ghetto
wising and starving and deliberately killing outrageous Palistinians.
Speaker 15 (46:32):
It's unconscionable and from my point of view, it is
a flagrant violation of Jewish teaching. They may call themselves,
you know, observant, Orthodox, whatever it is, but it is
a total disgrace and it's not Jewish.
Speaker 10 (46:55):
Let's take let's take a caller. We have Tim online too, Tim,
what's on your mind tonight?
Speaker 17 (47:05):
Good evening, Ellen, and Rabbi Cohn.
Speaker 15 (47:08):
Hello Tim.
Speaker 17 (47:10):
I'm apart from disgusted with the actions of mister Nett
and Yahoo, however, I think that it's all too easy.
Speaker 18 (47:22):
To focus on without.
Speaker 17 (47:28):
Who, at least in recent times, started the war, Who
was responsible for killing a thousand Jews? And I think
a lot of people I don't think that retaliation is
justified and thinks that these two neighboring lands should treat
(47:50):
each other with kindness and respect. And I just think
that we can't you the unfortunate starvation of Palestinians and
the problems in the Palestinian area without keeping in mind
(48:10):
how unthinkable and how tragic it was that Israel was
invaded the attacks in an almost unthinkable manner in a
thousands Israelis and numerous hostages in their families have been
forever affected by that.
Speaker 10 (48:30):
Tim, let me ask you this, what do you think
about the demonstrations in Israel today by Israelis who are
standing there demanding an end to the starvation, an end
to the oppression of the Palestinian people, without regard to
return to the hostages. Those are Israeli Israeli Jews. Don't
(48:56):
you think we ought to listen to their voices.
Speaker 15 (48:58):
I think the numbers today are that seventy percent of
Israelis disagree with what their government is doing. That's a
pretty large percentage. And I very close members of my
family are out in protests two three nights a week
protesting what their government is doing.
Speaker 10 (49:21):
Tim, We've got kind of a poor connection with you here. Uh.
We dropped, we dropped, We dropped Your call, Tim, if
you call back in. We'll get you on. I'd be
interested in what you think of the situation. Is it
is it possible to be pro Israeli yet believes that
(49:48):
the treatment of the Palestinians is unjustified? Okay, we still
don't have Tim back. If you'll call, if you'll call in,
I'd like to hear his position on whether or not
somehow what Hamas did, all those horrible things that we
know they did, How that just how that? Okay? Tim Uh,
(50:13):
if you can hear me now, I'd like to hear
your your opinion on no matter how bad, no matter
how badly that Hamas acted, that it's gone way too
far now and that's not a justify. That's not to
justify what Hamas did, but the reaction has just been
way over the top and in violation.
Speaker 15 (50:34):
Before Tim, Before Tim, before you answer, I would like
to suggest that people read a book that came out
a few years ago. I think it's called The Olive Branch,
and it's about ways in which Arabs were Palestinians, but
Arabs living on what it's called the West Bank were attacked,
(50:56):
their homes were destroyed, their olive fields were cut down
by people who said they were doing this in the
name of Judaism. You know, there are maps today that
refer to those the West Bank and Gaza as a
Judea in Samaria, and they justify that saying because that
(51:19):
was the Biblical terminology. Well, I refer to them as
the West Bank and Gaza. They're not places determined by
the Bible. But I just wanted to make it suggest
that all I think it's called The Olibriant. It's a
very moving book. Go ahead, Tim, Tim, what do you think?
Speaker 18 (51:40):
Thank you for that. I will look forward to reading
that book. In response to Allen's question, of course they
should be listened to. I don't agree with any of
the continued policies of met and Yahoo. But what concerns
me is the anti Semitism that arises from from people
(52:01):
that are talking about genocide without keeping in mind how
this started, why this started. And you can disagree with
net and Yahoo. You can certainly demand that the killing stop,
but I think there's so much anti semitism on college
campuses and throughout America and the world as a result
(52:24):
of what, in Netanyahu's mind is retaliation. You know, it's
it's not just a campaign that started out of hatred
of a particular ethnic group or religion. It's it's it.
Some response is justified. The question is how much and
(52:49):
when should it stop? And I think the three of
us are in agreement it should stop, but not at
the cost of Israel's survival and reputation.
Speaker 15 (53:00):
Well, I agree. You know, things that have to stop
today are hostages need to be returned. There has to
be diplomacy to bring about peaceful relationships. You know, if
somebody would have told me thirty years ago that there
would be peace accords between Israel and Egypt, you know,
(53:23):
but I remember seeing that on the White House lawn.
You know Menacham began and Naser is striking a peace accord,
or Yasuk Rabin and the Arafat. Well, you know, diplomacy
is something that needs to guard guide our world today,
not warfare, not violence, and certainly not starvation that seemed
(53:51):
as unreligious as anything can be.
Speaker 18 (53:55):
More people have died in the name of religion in
the world history than any other cause.
Speaker 10 (54:00):
Right, Rabbi. Is it possible to be anti Zionist and
not be anti Semitic? I believe it is.
Speaker 15 (54:15):
I would say that while I am a Zionist and
proud to be one. I am anti right wing Zionism
that has distorted the Zionist movement. If I can just
take a moment to share with you, there are are
three things that I suggested are statements of definition, and
(54:36):
I'll be very brief. First, a Zionist to me is
one who is committed to the existence and survival of
the State of Israel, and who translates that commitment into
tangible acts promoting that survival. Two, a Zionist is one
who takes the principles of the Declaration of Independence of
(55:00):
Israel seriously. That moment when David Ben Gurion read to
the world the principles on which the new Jewish State
would rest was a moment of commitment. There was a
particular way in which the founders of the Jewish State
hoped it would develop. That included the total respect for
(55:20):
religious sites, the holy places of Christians and Moslems as
well as Jews. It included total freedom and equality of
opportunity for the Arab minority, and included total freedom of religion.
And Third, as Zionists, is one who lives in Israel
or in the diaspora who sees Israel as the place
(55:44):
where prophetic ideals can be put to work in a
realistic setting. And that's what I've been Israel many, many times,
and one of the things that always strikes me. It
has the potential of being a place where true justice
and equality are practiced, and it's a good model for
(56:08):
the world. It's not providing that model today.
Speaker 10 (56:12):
Wouldn't that be a flowering of democracy in the Middle East?
Rabbi who's responsible for being on the Let's talk about
who the right wing are? Is it the ultra orthodox Jews?
Speaker 15 (56:26):
Yes?
Speaker 10 (56:26):
Yes? And they also are exempt from military service, are
they not?
Speaker 14 (56:33):
Men?
Speaker 15 (56:33):
Are if they are students of Jewish literature and so on,
they are exempt. They're trying to change that, but that
has not gone through, and that, you know, angers the
majority of Israelis. They say, why should our why should
we go in? Why should our sons and daughters go in?
In Israel? Both are subscribed, both are drafted men and women.
(57:00):
Why are those people exempt? Well, you know, when Israel
was established in nineteen forty eight, David Ben Gurion, the
very very wise and great man, you know, he said,
let me just turn over certain areas to quote that
religious group, so we don't have to bother with them,
so that, for example, marriage in Israel to Jews, that's
(57:25):
civil marriage, is not possible only under the aegis of
the religious group. So you know, I love America because
America theoretically has separation of church and state. It would
be great if Israel had separation of church and.
Speaker 10 (57:41):
State and had peace among all the people that lived there. Right,
it's a beautiful place. The Israelis and the Palestinians to
some extent, have made it green. They've done amazing things
to make their other otherwise previously dry lands fertile. What
(58:07):
a wonderful place it would be if they could share
their holy sites and and finally learn learn to live together.
Ladies and gentlemen. I want to thank you for Rabbi
Hella Comb for joining us tonight, and our callers, Phillis
and Tim. Thank you very much for calling in. Thanks
(58:28):
Alan for creating this. Thank you, thank you Rabbi for
being so brave as to come in here and explain
the situation to us. I want to thank the Democratic
Luncheon Club of sam Bernardina for their sponsorship, and anybody
else who wishes to sponsor this show, please call the
Democratic luncheon club. We can arrange that this is Alan
Bartleman for the reformers saying good night.
Speaker 13 (58:51):
Me down on.
Speaker 2 (58:54):
My back, down.
Speaker 8 (59:01):
To Hebot Club's original pure POWD Drgo. Super Tea helps
build red corpusoles in the blood, which carry oxygen to
organs and cells. Our organs and cells need oxygen to
regenerate themselves. The immune system needs oxygen to develop, and
cancer dies in oxygen. So the T is great for
healthy people because it helps build the immune system, and
it can truly be miraculous for someone fting a potentially
(59:22):
life threatening disease due to an infection, diabetes, or cancer.
The TA is also organic and naturally caffeine free. A
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which includes shipping. To order, please visit to Hebot club
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(59:45):
to Hebot club dot com or call us at eight
one eight six one zero eight zero eight eight Monday
through Saturday nine am to five pm California time. That's
eight one eight six one zero eight zero eight eight
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Speaker 1 (01:00:04):
NBC News on k c A A Lomel sponsored by
Teamsters Local nineteen thirty two
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