August 19, 2025 • 42 mins
Part One is Live! Greg Burdulis on Monastic Life, Mindfulness & the Power of Presence In this first half of our two-part conversation, Greg Burdulis—former monk, speaker, and mindfulness mentor—shares what led him to spend seven years in silence and how that time reshaped his understanding of life, suffering, and joy.
We talk about:
-Life as a Monk
-Why mindfulness isn’t about escaping pain
-The beauty of ordinary moments
-How to begin again—no matter your past
Greg’s wisdom is raw, grounding, and full of soul. Tune in for a conversation that invites you to slow down, breathe deep, and connect to what’s real.
Watch Greg’s TED Talk: https://www.ted.com/talks/greg_burdulis_the_power_of_presence
Connect on LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/gregburdulis
http://gregburdulis.com/
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:00):
Welcome to the Rewrite, a podcast about divorce, choice and
new beginnings. I'm your host Wendy Sloan, former TV producer,
mom of two and one sweet golden retriever. This is
a space for real talk about the moments that break us,
the choices that define us, and the power we have
to begin again. You'll hear personal stories, heartfelt insights, and
(00:22):
honest conversations about healing relationships and reclaiming your life one
choice at a time. I'll be joined by experts in divorce, finance,
mental health, wellness and more and everything you need to
support your next chapter. The most powerful chapters might be
the ones you write next. Let's begin your rewrite together.
This episode is brought to in part by the Needle
(00:44):
Kuda Law Firm guidance that moves lives forward.
Speaker 2 (00:47):
Welcome to the Rewrite.
Speaker 1 (00:48):
I'm your host Landy Sloan and what an extraordinary guest
I have today. He is a speaker, facilitator, and mindful
mentor with an extraordinary path. After leaving a successful career
and spending seven years as a Buddhist monk, including time
and silent retreat, he returned to the modern life to
help others bridge the gap between spiritual insight and everyday experience.
(01:09):
Through mindfulness, somatic practices, and trauma and form work, he
guides people through deep personal transformation, especially during life's less
uncertain moments. His grounded wisdom offers powerful invitation to pause, reconnect,
and begin again.
Speaker 2 (01:26):
I am truly honored to welcome to my show.
Speaker 1 (01:29):
Greg Burdulis, and I only smile and laugh during that
because I see his smiling face and his presence is
so calming to me.
Speaker 3 (01:37):
Welcome, Wendy, Thank you so much, thank you for your
beautiful introduction.
Speaker 2 (01:44):
Oh my god, just hearing your voice and talking to
you and what you did right before we started this
interview grounded me.
Speaker 3 (01:54):
Yeah, what did we do just before we started this interview?
Speaker 1 (01:58):
Oh, put our hand on our hearts and then our
other hands on it and breathe deeply so we could
feel it.
Speaker 2 (02:07):
We could feel our hands moving.
Speaker 3 (02:09):
Now, what's the result of that? Calm, peaceful, pretty simple,
pretty quick. Huh m hmm. Yeah, yeah, so good to
know that we have that option. And it does matter
(02:29):
who we're doing that kind of activity with, So there's
a quality of resonance that goes between the two people.
But you experiencing that once with me means that you
have a little more availability to do it on your own. Okay, great, hooray.
Speaker 2 (02:52):
I love that everyone should do that.
Speaker 1 (02:55):
So what an incredible journey you've been on, your going
on For those of us that don't know what is
a buddhistman, You've spent seven years doing that, including time and.
Speaker 2 (03:07):
Silent retreat, and I want to know about that time
as well. What led you to that?
Speaker 3 (03:14):
Well, let me start from with the last question first,
what led me to that depression and suffering led me
to intensive meditation practice. There's lots of story to get
to the depression and suffering, and if that's interesting, perhaps
(03:38):
later we can go there. But to get to answering
your question specifically, the suffering and depression were so vast
and profound that medicine, like western medicine, didn't help much.
(03:58):
Therapy didn't help much. There needed to be a massive
shift in my world. And it not my external world,
because my external world was lovely. I was teaching about
creativity using the Artist's Way, teaching with Julia Cameron. I
(04:22):
was training as a chaplain. I was dancing with a
low flying trapeze dance troup had a girlfriend, and yet
inside I was dying, so something needed to shift. As
doing the chaplaincy work, I'd be with people that were
(04:44):
this was in the hospital, I'd be with people that
were dying, and after the patient died and the family left,
I'd stay with the body because death was something that
was not very familiar to me, and it was I
was curious about it, and I hadn't seen human bodies
(05:09):
that were corpses, and so I'd stay with that body
for a while. And it became so clear that sooner
or later, this body's going to be just like that body,
in the sense of no longer breathing, no longer responsive,
no longer engaging with the world. So between now and then,
(05:32):
what's important. That's a very simple question, and there was
no clear answer. But there was a sense of get
thee to a monastery, kind of like get thee to
a nunnery, but a little different. And so I had
very little to lose. There was nothing in the US
(05:55):
that was feeding me internally, so to take off and
explore different countries, different cultures, and find a place that
my whole system could settle and begin to do the
inner work of healing. I didn't know what that meant,
(06:18):
but it was something that I was looking for. And
when I was living in India and had an audience
with His Holiness the Dali Lama, and he said, the
most important thing is to transform your mind. I knew
(06:38):
for me, wham, it's like all the parts of the galvanized.
And I said, yes, that's what I need to do.
How and where? Well, how it's pretty simple, at least
according to his Holiness. That was to learn meditation. And
I was happy, ready eager to do that. I just
didn't know where. That very day I met a woman
(07:02):
who had ordained in the Terravada Buddhist tradition in Burma,
and when I told her about what I wanted, she said, oh,
Burma is the place for what you're talking about. That
is the place to go.
Speaker 4 (07:15):
I said, okay, I'll go to Burma. Where is it.
It's fortunately not that far away. In fact, it has.
Speaker 3 (07:26):
A border with India. And once I got to Burma
and I settled into meditation practice, I realized, Yeah, this
is the work for me. This is what needs to happen.
Intense observation allowing the mind and its patterns to reveal
(07:47):
themselves to awareness, and I could see aspects of my
past and aspects of my present moment behavior that was unfruitful, unskillful,
causing suffering to who to me. And I remember one
(08:10):
day in particular, realizing, oh my god, there is so
much negativity in my mind. I can see this mind
judging people I don't even know who they are.
Speaker 2 (08:22):
Wow.
Speaker 3 (08:24):
And it was the first time that I could see
that as a pattern, as an activity, not who I am,
but as a behavior. And it was the first time
that I realized doesn't have to be this way. And
the training that proceeded and followed actually was a furthering
(08:49):
of that capacity to witness what's happening, what's happening mentally,
what's happening emotionally, what's happening physically, what's happening around me,
and all of that can be radically different than what's
happening in the stories of my mind about how poor
(09:09):
me I'm getting. This is actually a teacher who helps
with this. I go to a teacher relatively early in
the monastic practice, and I say, I can't sit still
without there being so much pain in my legs and hips.
I have to move, and I can't do walking meditation
(09:32):
without being assailed by thoughts and interruptions and distractions. And
I have diarrhea again. And the teacher, by the way,
she's a woman, and it's rare to be with a
woman teacher in Burma. And I remember going to this
interview thinking, oh, thank goodness, I'll be with someone who's
(09:55):
kind and sweet like my mother. Well she was definitely kind,
but she was not sweet, and she was not like
my mother because when she heard me say diarrhea again,
she said, what do you call this mental state you're in?
And I said mental state, it's the truth and she said,
(10:20):
I call it self pity. Oh my god, wham. I
felt slapped to the wall. This was not how my
mama would have responded. She would have said, oh, poor baby,
what can we do to the hells? And it was
(10:42):
as though I was nailed to the wall, but not quite,
because I was slithering down that wall, dripping to the floor.
And by the time I got to the floor, I realized,
my gosh, she is right. This is self pity. I'd
never read. I recognized it before. I'm not saying it
(11:03):
wasn't part of my life. I'm not saying it wasn't familiar.
I'm saying I didn't recognize it, and she helped me
recognize self pity for the first time. And since then,
the amount of self pity in my life is it's
radically reduced, radically reduced. I don't I don't know that
(11:27):
I notice it at all anymore, but it's a helpful
thing for me to be able to notice that particular
dynamic because it fosters more suffering. So there's an example
of why do this kind of practice and what was
(11:51):
actually supportive of me for seven years because when I
was first asked how long do you intend to be
a monk? I said ten months, And then those ten
months came and I realized I'm barely started on this path,
and it ended up being seven years. And the reason
(12:13):
that I came back was because my father was dying.
We can get to that later if that's important. But
to finish answering the question about what is a Buddhist monk,
it's someone who takes vows of well, actually there's two
hundred some vows for a monk, three hundred for a nun.
(12:37):
There's an example of a kind of misogyny there, but
we'll get we can talk more about that, if that's interesting,
But for now, two hundred vows for a monk who
is endeavoring to live a life that is skillful for
himself and for others. And in the Terravaden tradition of Buddhism,
(13:05):
which was the tradition I was in, that ordination is temporary.
You can leave any time and go back to regular life.
In fact, there are many Burmese men that would once
a year take the robes for ten days and then
return to their life as a husband and a father
(13:28):
and as a merchant. So I wanted to be able
to leave that process if that was necessary as a monk,
instead of promising or at least aspiring to be a
monk for the rest of my life, as shows up
in other traditions, like the tradition of His Holiness the
(13:51):
Dali Lama, for example.
Speaker 1 (13:53):
Do you think that if your father wasn't dying, you
would have stayed longer?
Speaker 3 (13:59):
You know that I'd like that question. There was already
some sense of wanting to offer to my people the
(14:19):
West what I was learning and benefiting from as a monk,
and it hadn't congealed into an actual impulse, but it
was something that I was considering, So I think that
(14:41):
sooner or later I would have left the monastery even
if he wasn't dying. And part of the reason for
that was there's growing clarity that the domain of the heart,
particularly in romance and intimacy, was something that was undeveloped
from and there's a lot of learning there for me,
(15:05):
a lot of learning, and it wasn't going to happen
as a monk. Different learning would, but not that, and
I knew that I I wanted to grow and learn
in that area too, which continues to this day because
(15:26):
after a while I did find someone and we've been
married for ten years now.
Speaker 2 (15:33):
That's amazing. And you found someone when you were.
Speaker 3 (15:36):
Fifty yeah, yeah.
Speaker 1 (15:40):
Right, So I want to touch on We're going to
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Speaker 2 (15:46):
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Greg Burdullis. He's a speaker, facilitator and mindful mentor with
an extraordinary path. Okay, so you met, you met your
(17:22):
you met when you were fifty, or you started dating
when you were fifty.
Speaker 3 (17:27):
I think we started dating when I was fifty. Okay, yeah,
I think we we married like five ish years later.
Speaker 2 (17:39):
So you fulfilled that part that was you felt was missing.
Speaker 3 (17:42):
Yeah, well, let me shift that language a little bit.
That part is being fulfilled. That is an ongoing process
being married. It's sort of like the beginning of an
intense learning experience, the beginning well, actually no, the beginning
starts even before that. But there's a commitment. The marriage
(18:05):
is a commitment to maintain that path and honor the
other and myself and the relationship. And we don't really
know what that means. It's something that is discovered through
the day to day life, which continues.
Speaker 2 (18:30):
It continues.
Speaker 1 (18:32):
Let's go back to the meditation and why meditation is
so important and for people that have a hard time
meditating that can't be still in their bodies, in their
minds and their heads.
Speaker 3 (18:49):
Okay, so first of all, let's acknowledge that being still
is its own process, and it doesn't mean that meditation
is not possible or that that person is not able
to meditate. One of the advantages to meditation for a
(19:14):
person that is hyperactive mentally and physically is that that
level of activity can occlude the simple joy of seeing
a blue sky, listening to a cardinal sing, observing the
(19:37):
smile of a child licking her popsicle. And this is
to me, at least this is really important, is to
be able to touch into the beauty of life as
brief moments, as glimpses, as glimmers of beauty or profundity
(20:05):
or mystery of it. I know that when my mind
is busy with other things perseveration or rumination, there is
so much that is good that I miss. So the
(20:31):
hard the difficulty of missing the good is that there
tends to become this overly weighted attention to what is negative,
what is painful, what is hard, what is not working.
And it's easy then to foment negative emotions like shame
(20:52):
on me, or blame on somebody else, or self pity.
And the problem here in this situation is that there's
diminishing capacity to be connected to what is beautiful, what
is nurturing, what is offering a sense not escape as
(21:19):
much as a sense of blossoming. And so for the
people that were describing that are hyperactive mentally and physically,
this is one of my concerns for them is that
they miss this other dimension of life that is, at
(21:40):
least for me, it has a quality of a vitamin
and it has the quality of good sleep like it
is supportive to all the rest of my life. Okay,
so that's part one. Part two is how to interact
with a busy mine mind or a body that can't
(22:02):
sit still. Well. This is where one on one guidance
and connection with the other person would help me know
how to invite some sense of a broader awareness that
(22:25):
is noticing the mental activity without getting drawn into it,
a broader, deeper awareness that is noticing the restlessness of
the body or the impulse to keep on being physically active,
and not necessarily get drawn into it such that we
(22:47):
get locked into either of those modes. So, in this case,
awareness is sort of a key to being able to
be bigger than either of those dimensions of one's present
moment experience.
Speaker 1 (23:07):
Let's talk about building self love, self care, finding You
talked a little bit about this just before finding Delight
in Small Things, and I love that you said it's
even just like watching watching a cardinal sing or the
little things? Yeah, okay, why why they're so important?
Speaker 3 (23:30):
Before I answer that, I'd love to hear your response to.
Speaker 2 (23:34):
That, why it's so important?
Speaker 3 (23:36):
Oh?
Speaker 2 (23:37):
Well? For me?
Speaker 1 (23:39):
Yeah, I slowed down. I learned to slow down in
my life because I don't want to miss anything. And
sometimes I felt like I was going and going and going,
and then I miss a lot of things, just the
beauty and little things. And I feel like slowing down
(24:00):
in my life made me a lot happier and more
content and more peaceful and more calm.
Speaker 3 (24:09):
More content, more peaceful, more calm.
Speaker 1 (24:13):
But I thought I always was, But I was always
running and running and running, and I didn't take time
for the simple things.
Speaker 2 (24:24):
That we could miss.
Speaker 3 (24:25):
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (24:26):
Yeah, And so I always say, now I'm living my
best life. Why am I living my best life? Because
I'm living my life like maybe that there's not a
tomorrow every day?
Speaker 3 (24:40):
Wow? Wow? Does it make sense to you that one
day there will not be a tomorrow?
Speaker 1 (24:51):
I feel like I have at least thirty good summers left.
Maybe yeah, I think about that sometimes.
Speaker 3 (25:00):
Is that morbid for you? Is it depressing? Or does
it energize this orientation of live my best now while
I can?
Speaker 2 (25:09):
It energizes me me too, Me too. That's why that's
why we connect. And it didn't. It didn't take me
long to get there. You know, I was in my life.
Speaker 1 (25:26):
I was so focused on raising my kids and taking
care of my kids and everything else, which is part
of life, part of my life's journey. And then they
were settled in, you know, thriving and then like my time,
and then that's when it all began.
Speaker 2 (25:44):
It just began. I don't even remember when it.
Speaker 3 (25:46):
Just I I'm a little surprised, and I wonder why
you didn't collapse into the empty nest as some people
do when their roles are gone. Who are they? What
(26:08):
do they do? They don't know and their life gets
smaller and smaller.
Speaker 1 (26:12):
I didn't collasp because they still come home, because we're
still so connected, and because I talk to them all
the time, because I see them a lot, and because
they I'm involved in their life and they're involved in
my life.
Speaker 2 (26:28):
So I think that's why it never felt like.
Speaker 1 (26:32):
Even when they start their jobs like oh, they're just
at college still, and you know, I visited them at
college and then they went.
Speaker 2 (26:39):
On too the real world.
Speaker 1 (26:40):
And you know, my son was you know, in another
state for a couple of years, and I just sayid, oh,
he's still in college.
Speaker 2 (26:45):
But I still saw him, and I always I never
felt not connected to them. So I think that's and
I still don't.
Speaker 3 (26:52):
Yeah, somewhere in there, you got divorced. Where did that happen?
Speaker 2 (26:59):
In the now? This is all about me.
Speaker 1 (27:01):
This is the way way I got divorced in two
thousand and eight, long time ago.
Speaker 3 (27:06):
Oh okay, So is that part of when you started
rewriting your life.
Speaker 2 (27:16):
It's a very good question.
Speaker 1 (27:18):
I I think I think I've rewritten my life several times. Yeah,
definitely rewrote it then, because we started our own traditions
and our own journey. And then when they went to
you know, when they went to college, started that again.
(27:39):
Then I lost my dad, and then that was another journey.
Speaker 2 (27:45):
That was another rewrite, not having my dad. Yeah, back
forward then you know, years later, and then I lost
my mom.
Speaker 1 (27:53):
So there was a bunch of rewrites then, even when
my kids went off to work and I moved, and
that's when my real rewright is.
Speaker 2 (28:06):
In the process right now, which is living my best.
Speaker 3 (28:11):
Life, and that includes this podcast.
Speaker 1 (28:15):
That includes making a difference, yes, and trying to share
with people that there is choice, which is my podcast
as well, divorce choice and new beginnings. And there's new
beginnings whether it's two point oh, three point zero or
four point zero, and there's always there's always sun on
(28:35):
the other side, no matter how hard it is. And
which leads me to what I wanted to talk about
as well, and you and I talked about this before
this interview, is we have to face the difficult times,
and it's important to face the difficult times. Can you
(28:56):
speak on that and why it's important.
Speaker 3 (29:06):
Well, the Buddha said a statement that is often translated
as life is suffering and there's other ways two access
what he meant, and one way to talk about it
(29:26):
is that life includes inevitable unwanted experience. Let's pretend that's true.
Let's pretend the Buddha is right. Okay, So if there's
unwanted experience, if that's inevitable, if there's no avoiding unwanted experience,
(29:53):
then what's the best way to interact with that or
to deal with that. Now. There's lots and lots of
different forms of response to that. One is avoidance and
numbing out or getting drunk enough that it doesn't matter.
(30:16):
One another is becoming so preoccupied with other things like
gambling or porn. There's lots and lots of ways to
respond to the ongoing difficulties of life that, from my perspective,
are not fruitful, are not skillful, are not helpful to
(30:39):
you or to the people around you. Well, okay, so
it seems easy enough to acknowledge that there are poor
ways of responding or unskillful ways. What are the skillful possibilities?
Here's one that just delights me in its orientation because
(31:05):
it is able to find the positive possibility that is
inherent within the difficulty, as if that difficulty were an
opportunity to learn and grow. Now, that very orientation has
(31:25):
a positive perspective underneath the difficulty. So the power that
becomes available to us when we're willing to see that
(31:47):
this thing that is hard for me right now is
not some sort of condemnation or some evidence that I'm
wrong or bad or stupid, or I'm not doing life right. Instead,
it is a possible way to develop inner strength and fortitude.
(32:13):
There's a description of there's a line in a poem
from a Burmese monk that goes something like this, all
beings experience difficulty, the enlightened ones are not perturbed. So
(32:34):
in that sense, in that message, the enlightened ones also
experience difficulty. But the enlightened ones are kind of like
the cat and the dog. They don't seem like they
are perturbed by their difficulties. Yes, something is hard or
painful or difficult, but they're not blaming, shaming, complaint or
(33:02):
being overwhelmed. So how can I do that? And to
what extent can I help others do that? So before
I go on to what I can do for others,
I need to be able to do this myself, have
(33:23):
internal direct experience and there's a sense of fortitude or
endurance that seems a way to be able to deal
(33:44):
with difficulty such that I don't get overwhelmed, I don't
get harmed, hurt maybe harmed no. So finding that distinction
and finding the ways for me to be able to
(34:04):
endure difficulty without sliding into a negative mind state that
I call training in my life. And I think that's
what a lot of the result of doing intensive meditation
practice offers me the opportunity to reframe, or to use
(34:27):
Wendy's language, rewrite, rewrite my moment by moment experience. Let
me see if there's anything to add to what I've
said there, Yeah, there is. Let's assume, remember, we're going
to assume that the voodoo's right, that there are going
(34:48):
to be unwanted experiences no matter what, and it could
be aging, sickness and death. Like we don't get to
avoid those, so unwonted experiences will arise. Will that cause
suffering or not? That, to me is a hugely important question.
(35:13):
And for a human being to recognize that, wow, they
have some choice here, they have some influence to steer
themselves away from suffering, that is amazing to me. Here's
one of the reasons that it's amazing. It's not only
for that single person. Have you when have you heard
(35:35):
this phrase, hurt people, hurt people. M hm hmm. I
love that phrase. Hurt people, hurt people.
Speaker 2 (35:44):
Hurt people, hurt people.
Speaker 1 (35:47):
Right, Nikes, when you slow it down and you say it,
hurt people, hurt people.
Speaker 3 (35:56):
Sure, yeah, yeah, yeah, So let's not hurt people. And
that includes being in a state that is not hurt,
is not harmed, is more and more benevolent, kind, generous, patient, humorous,
(36:19):
and by the way, a person who's living those qualities,
that is a beautiful life.
Speaker 1 (36:29):
Yes, I agree, so much to talk about, so much
more to talk about. This is very very important, and
I know this is very very important to you, the
importance of mindfulness. How it's different from meditation, what it
(36:50):
really is. I know that's huge for you.
Speaker 3 (36:58):
It is it is. Yeah, So what is mindfulness? It's
the individual being aware of what's happening in the here
and now. That simple sentence is it's accurate, but it's
(37:27):
quite insipid. It's relatively weak to try to refer to
what mindfulness is and the benefits of mindfulness. So there
are other people who will talk about other dimensions of mindfulness.
For example, it's non judgmental, like it doesn't judge what
(37:52):
is coming into awareness, and it doesn't preclude some things
and say yes to something and no to others. There's
another dimension to this awareness that others have added. And
it makes sense to me to add the word loving
(38:14):
before the word awareness, because there's an inherent welcoming at
that dimension of awareness, that capacity to be awake, and
I want to contrast awake with sleeping, like what we
(38:37):
do at night, but I also want to contrast it
with a kind of dreaming that happens at night, where
we're fully engaged in the dream, completely believing that there's
a tiger chasing us, or there's Pod Thai street food
available right outside the window, or there's a tidal wave
(38:59):
on its way. A wake could include recognizing, oh my gosh,
those are mental processes that have nothing to do with actuality.
The same is true with rumination and perseveration, getting so
(39:24):
anxious about something that's actually not here now. So awake
means noticing that that is what's happening, and the anxiety
of that particular process begins quite quickly to dissolve when
there's a clear realization that's not actually happening now, and
(39:48):
there's more capacity to be with what is happening. So
I want to clarify that the word mindfulness, at least
in the way that I'm defining it, includes the individual
who is being mindful, because there's another dimension of this
(40:11):
practice that goes deeper than the individual him or herself
that's practicing mindfulness, and that is awareness itself that is
not narrowed or constricted into a little me and my
(40:31):
story and my history and my gender, my address. There's
the capacity for mindfulness to deepen into awareness where those
dimensions of me as a person are no longer the
identity of who I think I am. And at that
(40:58):
deeper level of awareness, there is a quality of freedom
that recognizes that there are things that come and go
through that field of awareness and none of them are me.
There's liberation down that path.
Speaker 1 (41:17):
This is a perfect spot for us to wrap up
the first part of our two part talk. On the
second part of our podcast with You, we're going to
take a deeper dive into meditation. This has been such
a deeply centering experience, and I look forward to what's
to come next on the next episode with You. Nito
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(41:38):
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three five five seven nine five zero zero
Welcome to the Rewrite, a podcast about divorce, choice and
new beginnings. I'm your host Wendy Sloan, former TV producer,
mom of two and one sweet golden retriever. This is
a space for real talk about the moments that break us,
the choices that define us, and the power we have
to begin again. You'll hear personal stories, heartfelt insights, and
(00:22):
honest conversations about healing relationships and reclaiming your life one
choice at a time. I'll be joined by experts in divorce, finance,
mental health, wellness and more and everything you need to
support your next chapter. The most powerful chapters might be
the ones you write next. Let's begin your rewrite together.
This episode is brought to in part by the Needle
(00:44):
Kuda Law Firm guidance that moves lives forward.
Speaker 2 (00:47):
Welcome to the Rewrite.
Speaker 1 (00:48):
I'm your host Landy Sloan and what an extraordinary guest
I have today. He is a speaker, facilitator, and mindful
mentor with an extraordinary path. After leaving a successful career
and spending seven years as a Buddhist monk, including time
and silent retreat, he returned to the modern life to
help others bridge the gap between spiritual insight and everyday experience.
(01:09):
Through mindfulness, somatic practices, and trauma and form work, he
guides people through deep personal transformation, especially during life's less
uncertain moments. His grounded wisdom offers powerful invitation to pause, reconnect,
and begin again.
Speaker 2 (01:26):
I am truly honored to welcome to my show.
Speaker 1 (01:29):
Greg Burdulis, and I only smile and laugh during that
because I see his smiling face and his presence is
so calming to me.
Speaker 3 (01:37):
Welcome, Wendy, Thank you so much, thank you for your
beautiful introduction.
Speaker 2 (01:44):
Oh my god, just hearing your voice and talking to
you and what you did right before we started this
interview grounded me.
Speaker 3 (01:54):
Yeah, what did we do just before we started this interview?
Speaker 1 (01:58):
Oh, put our hand on our hearts and then our
other hands on it and breathe deeply so we could
feel it.
Speaker 2 (02:07):
We could feel our hands moving.
Speaker 3 (02:09):
Now, what's the result of that? Calm, peaceful, pretty simple,
pretty quick. Huh m hmm. Yeah, yeah, so good to
know that we have that option. And it does matter
(02:29):
who we're doing that kind of activity with, So there's
a quality of resonance that goes between the two people.
But you experiencing that once with me means that you
have a little more availability to do it on your own. Okay, great, hooray.
Speaker 2 (02:52):
I love that everyone should do that.
Speaker 1 (02:55):
So what an incredible journey you've been on, your going
on For those of us that don't know what is
a buddhistman, You've spent seven years doing that, including time and.
Speaker 2 (03:07):
Silent retreat, and I want to know about that time
as well. What led you to that?
Speaker 3 (03:14):
Well, let me start from with the last question first,
what led me to that depression and suffering led me
to intensive meditation practice. There's lots of story to get
to the depression and suffering, and if that's interesting, perhaps
(03:38):
later we can go there. But to get to answering
your question specifically, the suffering and depression were so vast
and profound that medicine, like western medicine, didn't help much.
(03:58):
Therapy didn't help much. There needed to be a massive
shift in my world. And it not my external world,
because my external world was lovely. I was teaching about
creativity using the Artist's Way, teaching with Julia Cameron. I
(04:22):
was training as a chaplain. I was dancing with a
low flying trapeze dance troup had a girlfriend, and yet
inside I was dying, so something needed to shift. As
doing the chaplaincy work, I'd be with people that were
(04:44):
this was in the hospital, I'd be with people that
were dying, and after the patient died and the family left,
I'd stay with the body because death was something that
was not very familiar to me, and it was I
was curious about it, and I hadn't seen human bodies
(05:09):
that were corpses, and so I'd stay with that body
for a while. And it became so clear that sooner
or later, this body's going to be just like that body,
in the sense of no longer breathing, no longer responsive,
no longer engaging with the world. So between now and then,
(05:32):
what's important. That's a very simple question, and there was
no clear answer. But there was a sense of get
thee to a monastery, kind of like get thee to
a nunnery, but a little different. And so I had
very little to lose. There was nothing in the US
(05:55):
that was feeding me internally, so to take off and
explore different countries, different cultures, and find a place that
my whole system could settle and begin to do the
inner work of healing. I didn't know what that meant,
(06:18):
but it was something that I was looking for. And
when I was living in India and had an audience
with His Holiness the Dali Lama, and he said, the
most important thing is to transform your mind. I knew
(06:38):
for me, wham, it's like all the parts of the galvanized.
And I said, yes, that's what I need to do.
How and where? Well, how it's pretty simple, at least
according to his Holiness. That was to learn meditation. And
I was happy, ready eager to do that. I just
didn't know where. That very day I met a woman
(07:02):
who had ordained in the Terravada Buddhist tradition in Burma,
and when I told her about what I wanted, she said, oh,
Burma is the place for what you're talking about. That
is the place to go.
Speaker 4 (07:15):
I said, okay, I'll go to Burma. Where is it.
It's fortunately not that far away. In fact, it has.
Speaker 3 (07:26):
A border with India. And once I got to Burma
and I settled into meditation practice, I realized, Yeah, this
is the work for me. This is what needs to happen.
Intense observation allowing the mind and its patterns to reveal
(07:47):
themselves to awareness, and I could see aspects of my
past and aspects of my present moment behavior that was unfruitful, unskillful,
causing suffering to who to me. And I remember one
(08:10):
day in particular, realizing, oh my god, there is so
much negativity in my mind. I can see this mind
judging people I don't even know who they are.
Speaker 2 (08:22):
Wow.
Speaker 3 (08:24):
And it was the first time that I could see
that as a pattern, as an activity, not who I am,
but as a behavior. And it was the first time
that I realized doesn't have to be this way. And
the training that proceeded and followed actually was a furthering
(08:49):
of that capacity to witness what's happening, what's happening mentally,
what's happening emotionally, what's happening physically, what's happening around me,
and all of that can be radically different than what's
happening in the stories of my mind about how poor
(09:09):
me I'm getting. This is actually a teacher who helps
with this. I go to a teacher relatively early in
the monastic practice, and I say, I can't sit still
without there being so much pain in my legs and hips.
I have to move, and I can't do walking meditation
(09:32):
without being assailed by thoughts and interruptions and distractions. And
I have diarrhea again. And the teacher, by the way,
she's a woman, and it's rare to be with a
woman teacher in Burma. And I remember going to this
interview thinking, oh, thank goodness, I'll be with someone who's
(09:55):
kind and sweet like my mother. Well she was definitely kind,
but she was not sweet, and she was not like
my mother because when she heard me say diarrhea again,
she said, what do you call this mental state you're in?
And I said mental state, it's the truth and she said,
(10:20):
I call it self pity. Oh my god, wham. I
felt slapped to the wall. This was not how my
mama would have responded. She would have said, oh, poor baby,
what can we do to the hells? And it was
(10:42):
as though I was nailed to the wall, but not quite,
because I was slithering down that wall, dripping to the floor.
And by the time I got to the floor, I realized,
my gosh, she is right. This is self pity. I'd
never read. I recognized it before. I'm not saying it
(11:03):
wasn't part of my life. I'm not saying it wasn't familiar.
I'm saying I didn't recognize it, and she helped me
recognize self pity for the first time. And since then,
the amount of self pity in my life is it's
radically reduced, radically reduced. I don't I don't know that
(11:27):
I notice it at all anymore, but it's a helpful
thing for me to be able to notice that particular
dynamic because it fosters more suffering. So there's an example
of why do this kind of practice and what was
(11:51):
actually supportive of me for seven years because when I
was first asked how long do you intend to be
a monk? I said ten months, And then those ten
months came and I realized I'm barely started on this path,
and it ended up being seven years. And the reason
(12:13):
that I came back was because my father was dying.
We can get to that later if that's important. But
to finish answering the question about what is a Buddhist monk,
it's someone who takes vows of well, actually there's two
hundred some vows for a monk, three hundred for a nun.
(12:37):
There's an example of a kind of misogyny there, but
we'll get we can talk more about that, if that's interesting,
But for now, two hundred vows for a monk who
is endeavoring to live a life that is skillful for
himself and for others. And in the Terravaden tradition of Buddhism,
(13:05):
which was the tradition I was in, that ordination is temporary.
You can leave any time and go back to regular life.
In fact, there are many Burmese men that would once
a year take the robes for ten days and then
return to their life as a husband and a father
(13:28):
and as a merchant. So I wanted to be able
to leave that process if that was necessary as a monk,
instead of promising or at least aspiring to be a
monk for the rest of my life, as shows up
in other traditions, like the tradition of His Holiness the
(13:51):
Dali Lama, for example.
Speaker 1 (13:53):
Do you think that if your father wasn't dying, you
would have stayed longer?
Speaker 3 (13:59):
You know that I'd like that question. There was already
some sense of wanting to offer to my people the
(14:19):
West what I was learning and benefiting from as a monk,
and it hadn't congealed into an actual impulse, but it
was something that I was considering, So I think that
(14:41):
sooner or later I would have left the monastery even
if he wasn't dying. And part of the reason for
that was there's growing clarity that the domain of the heart,
particularly in romance and intimacy, was something that was undeveloped
from and there's a lot of learning there for me,
(15:05):
a lot of learning, and it wasn't going to happen
as a monk. Different learning would, but not that, and
I knew that I I wanted to grow and learn
in that area too, which continues to this day because
(15:26):
after a while I did find someone and we've been
married for ten years now.
Speaker 2 (15:33):
That's amazing. And you found someone when you were.
Speaker 3 (15:36):
Fifty yeah, yeah.
Speaker 1 (15:40):
Right, So I want to touch on We're going to
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Speaker 2 (15:46):
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an extraordinary path. Okay, so you met, you met your
(17:22):
you met when you were fifty, or you started dating
when you were fifty.
Speaker 3 (17:27):
I think we started dating when I was fifty. Okay, yeah,
I think we we married like five ish years later.
Speaker 2 (17:39):
So you fulfilled that part that was you felt was missing.
Speaker 3 (17:42):
Yeah, well, let me shift that language a little bit.
That part is being fulfilled. That is an ongoing process
being married. It's sort of like the beginning of an
intense learning experience, the beginning well, actually no, the beginning
starts even before that. But there's a commitment. The marriage
(18:05):
is a commitment to maintain that path and honor the
other and myself and the relationship. And we don't really
know what that means. It's something that is discovered through
the day to day life, which continues.
Speaker 2 (18:30):
It continues.
Speaker 1 (18:32):
Let's go back to the meditation and why meditation is
so important and for people that have a hard time
meditating that can't be still in their bodies, in their
minds and their heads.
Speaker 3 (18:49):
Okay, so first of all, let's acknowledge that being still
is its own process, and it doesn't mean that meditation
is not possible or that that person is not able
to meditate. One of the advantages to meditation for a
(19:14):
person that is hyperactive mentally and physically is that that
level of activity can occlude the simple joy of seeing
a blue sky, listening to a cardinal sing, observing the
(19:37):
smile of a child licking her popsicle. And this is
to me, at least this is really important, is to
be able to touch into the beauty of life as
brief moments, as glimpses, as glimmers of beauty or profundity
(20:05):
or mystery of it. I know that when my mind
is busy with other things perseveration or rumination, there is
so much that is good that I miss. So the
(20:31):
hard the difficulty of missing the good is that there
tends to become this overly weighted attention to what is negative,
what is painful, what is hard, what is not working.
And it's easy then to foment negative emotions like shame
(20:52):
on me, or blame on somebody else, or self pity.
And the problem here in this situation is that there's
diminishing capacity to be connected to what is beautiful, what
is nurturing, what is offering a sense not escape as
(21:19):
much as a sense of blossoming. And so for the
people that were describing that are hyperactive mentally and physically,
this is one of my concerns for them is that
they miss this other dimension of life that is, at
(21:40):
least for me, it has a quality of a vitamin
and it has the quality of good sleep like it
is supportive to all the rest of my life. Okay,
so that's part one. Part two is how to interact
with a busy mine mind or a body that can't
(22:02):
sit still. Well. This is where one on one guidance
and connection with the other person would help me know
how to invite some sense of a broader awareness that
(22:25):
is noticing the mental activity without getting drawn into it,
a broader, deeper awareness that is noticing the restlessness of
the body or the impulse to keep on being physically active,
and not necessarily get drawn into it such that we
(22:47):
get locked into either of those modes. So, in this case,
awareness is sort of a key to being able to
be bigger than either of those dimensions of one's present
moment experience.
Speaker 1 (23:07):
Let's talk about building self love, self care, finding You
talked a little bit about this just before finding Delight
in Small Things, and I love that you said it's
even just like watching watching a cardinal sing or the
little things? Yeah, okay, why why they're so important?
Speaker 3 (23:30):
Before I answer that, I'd love to hear your response to.
Speaker 2 (23:34):
That, why it's so important?
Speaker 3 (23:36):
Oh?
Speaker 2 (23:37):
Well? For me?
Speaker 1 (23:39):
Yeah, I slowed down. I learned to slow down in
my life because I don't want to miss anything. And
sometimes I felt like I was going and going and going,
and then I miss a lot of things, just the
beauty and little things. And I feel like slowing down
(24:00):
in my life made me a lot happier and more
content and more peaceful and more calm.
Speaker 3 (24:09):
More content, more peaceful, more calm.
Speaker 1 (24:13):
But I thought I always was, But I was always
running and running and running, and I didn't take time
for the simple things.
Speaker 2 (24:24):
That we could miss.
Speaker 3 (24:25):
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (24:26):
Yeah, And so I always say, now I'm living my
best life. Why am I living my best life? Because
I'm living my life like maybe that there's not a
tomorrow every day?
Speaker 3 (24:40):
Wow? Wow? Does it make sense to you that one
day there will not be a tomorrow?
Speaker 1 (24:51):
I feel like I have at least thirty good summers left.
Maybe yeah, I think about that sometimes.
Speaker 3 (25:00):
Is that morbid for you? Is it depressing? Or does
it energize this orientation of live my best now while
I can?
Speaker 2 (25:09):
It energizes me me too, Me too. That's why that's
why we connect. And it didn't. It didn't take me
long to get there. You know, I was in my life.
Speaker 1 (25:26):
I was so focused on raising my kids and taking
care of my kids and everything else, which is part
of life, part of my life's journey. And then they
were settled in, you know, thriving and then like my time,
and then that's when it all began.
Speaker 2 (25:44):
It just began. I don't even remember when it.
Speaker 3 (25:46):
Just I I'm a little surprised, and I wonder why
you didn't collapse into the empty nest as some people
do when their roles are gone. Who are they? What
(26:08):
do they do? They don't know and their life gets
smaller and smaller.
Speaker 1 (26:12):
I didn't collasp because they still come home, because we're
still so connected, and because I talk to them all
the time, because I see them a lot, and because
they I'm involved in their life and they're involved in
my life.
Speaker 2 (26:28):
So I think that's why it never felt like.
Speaker 1 (26:32):
Even when they start their jobs like oh, they're just
at college still, and you know, I visited them at
college and then they went.
Speaker 2 (26:39):
On too the real world.
Speaker 1 (26:40):
And you know, my son was you know, in another
state for a couple of years, and I just sayid, oh,
he's still in college.
Speaker 2 (26:45):
But I still saw him, and I always I never
felt not connected to them. So I think that's and
I still don't.
Speaker 3 (26:52):
Yeah, somewhere in there, you got divorced. Where did that happen?
Speaker 2 (26:59):
In the now? This is all about me.
Speaker 1 (27:01):
This is the way way I got divorced in two
thousand and eight, long time ago.
Speaker 3 (27:06):
Oh okay, So is that part of when you started
rewriting your life.
Speaker 2 (27:16):
It's a very good question.
Speaker 1 (27:18):
I I think I think I've rewritten my life several times. Yeah,
definitely rewrote it then, because we started our own traditions
and our own journey. And then when they went to
you know, when they went to college, started that again.
(27:39):
Then I lost my dad, and then that was another journey.
Speaker 2 (27:45):
That was another rewrite, not having my dad. Yeah, back
forward then you know, years later, and then I lost
my mom.
Speaker 1 (27:53):
So there was a bunch of rewrites then, even when
my kids went off to work and I moved, and
that's when my real rewright is.
Speaker 2 (28:06):
In the process right now, which is living my best.
Speaker 3 (28:11):
Life, and that includes this podcast.
Speaker 1 (28:15):
That includes making a difference, yes, and trying to share
with people that there is choice, which is my podcast
as well, divorce choice and new beginnings. And there's new
beginnings whether it's two point oh, three point zero or
four point zero, and there's always there's always sun on
(28:35):
the other side, no matter how hard it is. And
which leads me to what I wanted to talk about
as well, and you and I talked about this before
this interview, is we have to face the difficult times,
and it's important to face the difficult times. Can you
(28:56):
speak on that and why it's important.
Speaker 3 (29:06):
Well, the Buddha said a statement that is often translated
as life is suffering and there's other ways two access
what he meant, and one way to talk about it
(29:26):
is that life includes inevitable unwanted experience. Let's pretend that's true.
Let's pretend the Buddha is right. Okay, So if there's
unwanted experience, if that's inevitable, if there's no avoiding unwanted experience,
(29:53):
then what's the best way to interact with that or
to deal with that. Now. There's lots and lots of
different forms of response to that. One is avoidance and
numbing out or getting drunk enough that it doesn't matter.
(30:16):
One another is becoming so preoccupied with other things like
gambling or porn. There's lots and lots of ways to
respond to the ongoing difficulties of life that, from my perspective,
are not fruitful, are not skillful, are not helpful to
(30:39):
you or to the people around you. Well, okay, so
it seems easy enough to acknowledge that there are poor
ways of responding or unskillful ways. What are the skillful possibilities?
Here's one that just delights me in its orientation because
(31:05):
it is able to find the positive possibility that is
inherent within the difficulty, as if that difficulty were an
opportunity to learn and grow. Now, that very orientation has
(31:25):
a positive perspective underneath the difficulty. So the power that
becomes available to us when we're willing to see that
(31:47):
this thing that is hard for me right now is
not some sort of condemnation or some evidence that I'm
wrong or bad or stupid, or I'm not doing life right. Instead,
it is a possible way to develop inner strength and fortitude.
(32:13):
There's a description of there's a line in a poem
from a Burmese monk that goes something like this, all
beings experience difficulty, the enlightened ones are not perturbed. So
(32:34):
in that sense, in that message, the enlightened ones also
experience difficulty. But the enlightened ones are kind of like
the cat and the dog. They don't seem like they
are perturbed by their difficulties. Yes, something is hard or
painful or difficult, but they're not blaming, shaming, complaint or
(33:02):
being overwhelmed. So how can I do that? And to
what extent can I help others do that? So before
I go on to what I can do for others,
I need to be able to do this myself, have
(33:23):
internal direct experience and there's a sense of fortitude or
endurance that seems a way to be able to deal
(33:44):
with difficulty such that I don't get overwhelmed, I don't
get harmed, hurt maybe harmed no. So finding that distinction
and finding the ways for me to be able to
(34:04):
endure difficulty without sliding into a negative mind state that
I call training in my life. And I think that's
what a lot of the result of doing intensive meditation
practice offers me the opportunity to reframe, or to use
(34:27):
Wendy's language, rewrite, rewrite my moment by moment experience. Let
me see if there's anything to add to what I've
said there, Yeah, there is. Let's assume, remember, we're going
to assume that the voodoo's right, that there are going
(34:48):
to be unwanted experiences no matter what, and it could
be aging, sickness and death. Like we don't get to
avoid those, so unwonted experiences will arise. Will that cause
suffering or not? That, to me is a hugely important question.
(35:13):
And for a human being to recognize that, wow, they
have some choice here, they have some influence to steer
themselves away from suffering, that is amazing to me. Here's
one of the reasons that it's amazing. It's not only
for that single person. Have you when have you heard
(35:35):
this phrase, hurt people, hurt people. M hm hmm. I
love that phrase. Hurt people, hurt people.
Speaker 2 (35:44):
Hurt people, hurt people.
Speaker 1 (35:47):
Right, Nikes, when you slow it down and you say it,
hurt people, hurt people.
Speaker 3 (35:56):
Sure, yeah, yeah, yeah, So let's not hurt people. And
that includes being in a state that is not hurt,
is not harmed, is more and more benevolent, kind, generous, patient, humorous,
(36:19):
and by the way, a person who's living those qualities,
that is a beautiful life.
Speaker 1 (36:29):
Yes, I agree, so much to talk about, so much
more to talk about. This is very very important, and
I know this is very very important to you, the
importance of mindfulness. How it's different from meditation, what it
(36:50):
really is. I know that's huge for you.
Speaker 3 (36:58):
It is it is. Yeah, So what is mindfulness? It's
the individual being aware of what's happening in the here
and now. That simple sentence is it's accurate, but it's
(37:27):
quite insipid. It's relatively weak to try to refer to
what mindfulness is and the benefits of mindfulness. So there
are other people who will talk about other dimensions of mindfulness.
For example, it's non judgmental, like it doesn't judge what
(37:52):
is coming into awareness, and it doesn't preclude some things
and say yes to something and no to others. There's
another dimension to this awareness that others have added. And
it makes sense to me to add the word loving
(38:14):
before the word awareness, because there's an inherent welcoming at
that dimension of awareness, that capacity to be awake, and
I want to contrast awake with sleeping, like what we
(38:37):
do at night, but I also want to contrast it
with a kind of dreaming that happens at night, where
we're fully engaged in the dream, completely believing that there's
a tiger chasing us, or there's Pod Thai street food
available right outside the window, or there's a tidal wave
(38:59):
on its way. A wake could include recognizing, oh my gosh,
those are mental processes that have nothing to do with actuality.
The same is true with rumination and perseveration, getting so
(39:24):
anxious about something that's actually not here now. So awake
means noticing that that is what's happening, and the anxiety
of that particular process begins quite quickly to dissolve when
there's a clear realization that's not actually happening now, and
(39:48):
there's more capacity to be with what is happening. So
I want to clarify that the word mindfulness, at least
in the way that I'm defining it, includes the individual
who is being mindful, because there's another dimension of this
(40:11):
practice that goes deeper than the individual him or herself
that's practicing mindfulness, and that is awareness itself that is
not narrowed or constricted into a little me and my
(40:31):
story and my history and my gender, my address. There's
the capacity for mindfulness to deepen into awareness where those
dimensions of me as a person are no longer the
identity of who I think I am. And at that
(40:58):
deeper level of awareness, there is a quality of freedom
that recognizes that there are things that come and go
through that field of awareness and none of them are me.
There's liberation down that path.
Speaker 1 (41:17):
This is a perfect spot for us to wrap up
the first part of our two part talk. On the
second part of our podcast with You, we're going to
take a deeper dive into meditation. This has been such
a deeply centering experience, and I look forward to what's
to come next on the next episode with You. Nito
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(41:38):
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