The ESPN.com College Football writer on his podcast about the disappearance of CFB head coach Paul Wolfe's mother Dolores, Is Bill Belichick really this year's Coach Prime (?) + more
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Speaker 1 (00:01):
You were listening to the Sean O'Connell Show for the
Murdoch Hyundai Studio of ESPN seven hundred and ninety two
to one a half m.
Speaker 2 (00:19):
John O'Connell Show continues here on a Monday. We welcome
Kyle vonnagera ESPN staff writer.
Speaker 3 (00:27):
Kyle, welcome back to the show. How are you?
Speaker 4 (00:29):
I'm doing good man, How are you doing?
Speaker 3 (00:31):
All right?
Speaker 2 (00:32):
The Finding Dolores podcast and UH investigation.
Speaker 3 (00:38):
It's really interesting for me to follow along here.
Speaker 2 (00:41):
How did this become a thing that you decided you
wanted to put so much time, effort, energy into.
Speaker 4 (00:49):
Yeah, no, thanks for asking about it. It's it's it's
a it's a long story. It's kind of a wild story.
But the short version is that you know, back in
twenty twenty might call it and I call it. Adam
Rittenberg and I stumbled stumbled onto this story about what
happened to Paul Wolf growing up. Paul was the coach
of Washington State for a few years. He's now the
head coach at cal Pauly. And so we wrote this
(01:11):
big story that published in twenty twenty one. We spent
about ten months reporting it. But when we got to
the finish line. We just knew that there was so
much more to what happened that we weren't able to
get into for an ESPN audience, And so over the
last several years, we kept pursuing at it, picking away
at it, you know, found a good home for it
(01:32):
as a true crime podcast, and then went back to
the drawing board and reported it out from start to finish. Again,
we're happy to have to be starting to release for
three episodes. In the third episode, It's a Wild One,
it was released this morning.
Speaker 2 (01:45):
Are you a true crime podcast type enthusiast? Is this
something that has always been you know, as a fan,
I guess, before you decided to get into it yourself.
Speaker 4 (01:56):
Yeah, And I think so. I mean I've always It's
not like I'm listening to him all the time, but
when a compelling one kind of comes my way, I
certainly can get addicted. And I think more than just
like true crime, it's really just podcast storytelling in general
over a series, right, If you have a story that
can be told over a few episodes and something that's compelling,
you can get really invested in any sort of audio
(02:19):
documentary like that. I think it's a really entertaining form
of storytelling and something that I was always hopeful to
take a stab at. So with this one, it just
so happened that we ended up with a good story
that had a lot of potential in front of us,
and so we decided to move forward and turn it
into something really really comprehensive.
Speaker 2 (02:39):
Well cool, I recommend everyone go and check out what
you can of the the you said, episode three just
came out the Finding Dolores podcast.
Speaker 4 (02:50):
Yeah, so the podcast the full name is The Unforgotten
and it's season three and the name of our season
is Finding Dolores Wolf. So any of your podcasts as
to search for the Unforgotten Finding Doris wolfsh pop up
right there. I've been kind of posting it on it
on social media as well. Show it should be pretty
easy to find, uh, with a with a couple couple
(03:10):
keyword searches.
Speaker 2 (03:11):
All right, let's talk a little college football. I mean,
just scrolling down in your Twitter and the uh. I
don't know why my brain didn't do this already, but
the the equivalent of Bill Belichick going to North Carolina
and Bill Walsh going back to Stanford obviously is something
that you've touched on with ESPN and and it makes
(03:33):
total sense. And there's some great quotes about how you know,
even other coaches were in awe of a coach like
that coming back to the college football game. And I
was curious earlier in the summer whether or not Belichick
was going to be like this year's Dion Sanders because
of all the relationships stuff that was happening, and who
knows what.
Speaker 3 (03:52):
It's going to look like.
Speaker 2 (03:54):
How are we going to treat this story of one
of the all time great, maybe the all time great
head coach in NFL history, now testing out his hand
at the college football level. Are we going to be
as fascinated by him and by that as we were
last year and two years ago with Dion.
Speaker 4 (04:13):
I think it's going to be. I mean, it's a
good comp right. I think it's a comp between Bill
Walsh going back and the Dionne Sanders thing, right, because
it's the parallels with Walsh or you know Walsh in
ninety three when he went back to Stanford, and this
is a long story that I the re quarter of
the summer was that he was, you know, the pre
eminent football mind, the permanent living college football or a
(04:34):
football mind across the board. Right. He the installed a
dynasty in San Francisco with the forty nine ers, coached
the best quarterback at the time, Joe Montana, right, and
then accomplished everything there was to do, and then went
back to college where he was just viewed as this
kind of celebrity football genius. And you know a lot
of that applies to Bill Belichick of course, right. And
(04:55):
then of course it's a different era. You know, college
football is different, you know media is different, and so
you kind of blend that with Dion, this larger than
life figure coming back to college two years ago. We're
going to see some of both with Belichick, I think,
and I think he doesn't have the you know, the
flashy personality that Dion did, but he but what he
(05:17):
has is the just the bona fides as a coach, Right,
all the Super Bowl titles, everything of these accomplished on
that front, and so people are now going to question, Okay,
how does that how does that translate to the college level.
Dion's different. It was really how does his personality translate?
And what does having you know, an A list celebrity
in that seat do for a program? And we've seen
you know the impact that he has had over the
(05:38):
last couple of years. So I'm curious to see how
this plays out with Belichick. I know a lot of
people will be paying attention to North Carolina who wouldn't
have cared even a little bit about the Tar Heels
that if he wasn't if he wasn't the coach.
Speaker 2 (05:52):
As you're well aware, we're in Salt Lake City, so
we're focusing mostly on the Big Twelve Conference and specifically
the University of Utah. And depending on you know, your
favorite place, your favorite list, your favorite writer, you know,
the Big Twelve, it's some combination of there's going to
be a lot of parody and there's four or five
or six teams that could win the conference this year.
(06:13):
How do you handicap the Big Twelve and Utah's place
in that picture.
Speaker 4 (06:19):
It's it's a really interesting conversation, right because it like
five or six is the conversation now and five or
six was the conversation last year. But none of those
teams ended up being.
Speaker 3 (06:29):
The wrong five or six.
Speaker 4 (06:30):
Yeah, yeah, you know, so it's like, look, every wont
to say it was picked up, believe to come in
the last place in the conference. Last year and goes
on to win the conference, shows well in the playoffs.
I mean, BUYU was was down on that lest they
were competitive to the end. I don't think you know,
Iowa State was highly projected going into last year. Maybe
maybe they were a little bit higher than the other two,
but like you understand what I'm saying, and so, yeah, well,
(06:52):
the I think it's like it makes sense of why
the five six teams are in the spotlight now. But
I think the lesson is the right, Like, this is
a really even conference to begin with, just resources wise,
and then on top of that, you've also just got
this weird free agency dynamic that really changes how you
prepare for a college football season. No one really knows
(07:13):
anything anymore. It was always hard to project college football
in a way, right, there was a formula returning starters,
last year's success, coaching success, all those things. But now
these rosters are basically starting over. And so I think
that's compelling in that way because look, as good as
we think, you know, Texas Tech might be or Baylor
(07:34):
or Arizona State, you know, we won't really have a
great sense until probably the end of September.
Speaker 3 (07:42):
If then, right, because yeah, exactly.
Speaker 4 (07:45):
That's exactly right, because.
Speaker 2 (07:46):
Everyone beats everyone in these conferences sometimes. And you know,
you and I have both spent a lot of time
covering PAC twelve sports, and there's a new PAC twelve,
but the original, you know, the sort of legacy brands
in the PAC twelve conference are all scattered to the
wind acc Big ten. Some landed in the Big twelve,
(08:08):
and that conference was plagued by its own parody. That
conference was plagued by being thick through the middle and
not having the elite blue blood brands also be elite
blue blood competitors in the final years, notwithstanding that Washington
run to a national championship when it had already been
decided that the PAC twelve was gonna die. Basically, but
(08:31):
I have this you know, traumatic memory that is getting
stirred up again where everyone's just like, if everyone is
great in your conference, then nobody is. And the national
conversation around the PAC twelve for like five years was
just like, ah, well have fun out there, guys, We're
not going to watch because there's no great team. It
(08:52):
feels like the Big twelve is headed down that path
or is firmly in the middle of that path.
Speaker 3 (08:57):
Right now.
Speaker 4 (08:59):
Yeah, there's some strong parallels there, But what I'll say is,
like the main difference now and why it's not as
big an issue for the Big twelve is like, as
the PAC twelve was dealing with that, it was a
four team playoff, right, and so there was the best
team was going to be outside of the national conversation
because they didn't factor into the Top four playoff discussion.
Now because there is access for the Big twelve champion regardless, right,
(09:22):
I mean, you could drum up the scenario where they
wouldn't get in, but like on ninety nine percent of
the time the Big with under the current format, the
Big four champion would go to the playoffs, right, And
so as long as your your conference champion is relevant
in the playoff discussion, which it will be, right, I
still think that Booy's the conference in a way that
the PAC twelve didn't have. Like if the twelve team
(09:44):
format existed, you know, back you know, at the start
of the four team era, I don't think the PAC
twelve would have been as irrelevant as it became because
he still would have been in the playoff every year
and there would have been a reason nationally to pay
attention to the race because it factored into what would
happened at the end of the year. And so for me,
that was always such a contributing factor into like notoriety
(10:06):
of that PAC twelve is that the fourteen playoff just
completely sabotaged the PAC twelve in a way that it
really boosted the ACC. Right, the AEC was a terrible
conference for much of that time, but they had clems in,
you know, keeping them relevant year after year when they
were at the peak of their powers. You had Florida State,
you know, give them a nice bump. And that just
didn't happen for the PAC twelve in the same way.
(10:29):
And so yeah, I wouldn't be as concerned now about
the Big twelve not factoring in nationally as the PAC
twelve did, just because those factors are so much different.
Speaker 2 (10:38):
Kyle Bona gerz my guest here on the show O'Connell Show,
talking all things college football. As we head into the
twenty twenty five season, the playoff inclusiveness conversation is happening again,
you know, twenty four and twenty eighteen models. I guess
being floated around more likely scenario seems to be like
a sixteen team model, a lot of disagreement over all
(11:00):
automatic bids and things like that. So your point is
well made that the four team model was problematic for
the Pac twelve and for the Big twelve in some
of those years as well, and now a twelve team
model that solved the problem last year. For a lot
of these conferences and a lot of these access points
we're only going to get to hang on to.
Speaker 3 (11:19):
It seems like for a couple of years.
Speaker 2 (11:21):
What is the most likely outcome for you when it
comes to an expanded college football playoff and the Big
Ten and the SEC having so much power in that
decision making process.
Speaker 4 (11:33):
Yeah, I think the look at the guiding light is
probably just small incremental changes and so I mean that's
just been how college sports is always operated, right, So
we saw I go from two to four to twelve,
So I think sixteen is probably the next likely step.
How they do the you know, how they determine who's
in the field. I think there's obviously a number of
(11:54):
ways that could still go, but I think sixteen is possible.
And I just look at you look at CEA. They're
at twenty four, right, So there's already a model that
the NCAA uses to determine a champion in football that's
larger than sixteen, and it's a model that has worked
out really well for that level. And I think what
we're going to see is, look as the as the
playoff grows, it's going to continue to devalue the bowl games, right.
(12:18):
And so you know, if you're the thirteenth team now,
like your bowl game probably didn't seem as important because
you thought you were going to be in the playoffs,
And that'll be the case when you're the seventeen team
and there's six a sixteen team playoff, right, And that's
going to keep trickling down and devalue all all the
balls outside of the outside of the playoff system. And
so I think eventually there's just going to be more
(12:40):
an appetite to grow. And look if it gets to
twenty four or twenty eight or whatever, Like I'm watching
all those games in college football, fans are watching all
those games too, and so I eventually just money is
going to rule the day. I think the ratings will
kind of guide everyone in where to and where to go,
and whether that's good or bad or somewhere in between.
You is obviously up for individual interpretation, but I think
(13:01):
that's probably how this is going to play out.
Speaker 2 (13:05):
How many must watch players are there in college football
right now? Where you just the team is what it is,
but there's a player that you're like, I need to
see what he's going to do this year.
Speaker 3 (13:15):
Your number is.
Speaker 2 (13:16):
Probably larger than a lot of casual fans, or maybe
it's smaller because you know, it becomes a job for you.
But how many must watch players are there?
Speaker 4 (13:26):
Yeah, I'm probably not the best person for that question, honestly,
Like I'm very team oriented, and whatever the national headlines are,
it's going to dictate kind of where I'm watching. Look,
arch Manning right now, is he is the interesting player
in college football? You know, we have illicitious and like
top top hundred players in the country. That'll kind of
kind of goes over all of that stuff that will
(13:48):
help me guide stuff. But like right now, like I'm
so team focused that like it's it's for me, it's
not even about watching players. So that's a bad answer,
But I'm just I'm not the right person for for
for watching football that way.
Speaker 3 (14:01):
I've asked a couple of people this question today.
Speaker 2 (14:03):
In the big picture, you know, the NCAA is trying
to stay relevant in the world of college football, and
they're handing out sanctions, and they handed out some more
sanctions to the University of Michigan in the sign stealing situation.
And you know, there's a lot of literature out there
right now about how Jim Harbaugh is like the most
(14:25):
pedalized cheater in the history of college sports and whatnot.
But you look at you know, Michigan undeniable college football
blue blood, and yes they get slapped with something, But
are we looking at that are other teams that are
in similar situations, looking at what has happened through this
whole process, to the Michigan reputation, to the individuals involved,
(14:49):
to you know, the podcasts and the Netflix specials released.
Is there enough meat on the bone to say, gosh, guys,
you can't get away with it. And when you don't
get away with it, it's just not good for your
football program. Or is everyone looking at this and being like, eh,
you know what, they got to pay like twenty million
dollars in penalties, but they got a national championship out
of it, so worth it.
Speaker 4 (15:11):
Yeah, So I think it's like, what is the what
is the end result, right, you know, Michigan has a
national title, and basically any sort of punishment that comes
with a national title, like if they didn't take it away,
you got to live the experience. I think just about
every Michigan fani will be like, hey, we're fine with
how this play that we would if it played out
the same way again, would you rather have the cheating
and the national title or no cheating and no national title?
(15:35):
How many people you know are honestly picking no national
title with the cheating scandal, like you know, we're without it, right.
I just don't think it. I just don't think people
care enough about it. It's like, yes, it was cheating,
but it's also look, it's science feeling and it's bad
and they shouldn't do it. But it's not some egregious
you know. Uh so something that just is undefensible, like
(15:58):
cheating has been by our sport. It's for as long
as they as long as they've existed, and it will
be the case moving forward. But you know, I think
most problem most programs are probably in the same spot
where if you can get away with it, or you
can achieve something great, it's it's probably worth it. Certainly
the punishment and the you know, the puishment of Nansy
double A, all the bad prey, all the bad publicity.
(16:22):
It was all worth it for Michigan to get where
they ended up. And then look, Jim Harbuck goes off
from the Sunset, goes to the NFL and is rewarded
with a big new deal there and now he's trying
to win a Super Bowl.
Speaker 2 (16:32):
All right, unfair question before I let you go. Last
year we had Indiana surprise a lot of people. Arizona
State won the conference, as you already stated, when they
were thought to be one of the worst or the
worst in the conference. Is there a team out there
that you're like, God, they're going to surprise everyone this year?
Speaker 4 (16:53):
Yeah, so this probably, I mean, this kind of answers
your question, but they probably won't surprise a lot of people.
The team that I'm really interested in right now is
Texas Tech, and that's just because they, like you've we've
all seen the numbers, right Like, there's been rumors that
it's as much as forty million dollars spent on that roster,
and so they wouldn't supply it shouldn't surprise anyone if
they're good. But I am curious from the standpoint of, like,
(17:14):
what does forty million dollars get you? Right, it's let's
let's let's let's see how direct a correlation there will
be between having that big of an off season in
the transfer portal and recruiting using that using that oil
money to build a winner. And if it works, I
think you'll see other teams try to follow with similar
formula and just really do everything they can to go
(17:36):
for it in a single year.
Speaker 2 (17:40):
Yeah, I'm hoping that it doesn't work, but I'm a
little bit worried that it might. So we'll see Texas
Tech on the Utah football schedule, will be paying close attention,
We'll be reading everything you write, and I really do
hope that we all get a chance to keep listening
to the story of mister That's it's crazy that we're
(18:00):
going to see Paul wolf in excuse me, in week
two for the University of Utah on their football schedule,
you know, while we're listening to this podcast.
Speaker 4 (18:11):
No, I think what it does too is like a
lot of people under like know Paul Wolfe for his
tenure at Washington State where they just didn't win a
lot of games, but I think when you have this
added context about what he went through as a kid,
his mother what missing when he was twelve years old
and they didn't identify her remains for forty one years
after that, Like it really like will help understand who
(18:31):
he is as a person. Really a great guy, really
a great man. It should be motivating for a lot
of people, and I think it really the the contrast
of what you learned in the podcast versus what you
may have already thought about him will really shape shape
your feelings for sure.
Speaker 2 (18:45):
The Unforgotten Finding Dolores Wolf. Check it out and read
everything that Kyle Bonagera writes for ESPN.
Speaker 3 (18:52):
Thanks KYLEI thanks
You were listening to the Sean O'Connell Show for the
Murdoch Hyundai Studio of ESPN seven hundred and ninety two
to one a half m.
Speaker 2 (00:19):
John O'Connell Show continues here on a Monday. We welcome
Kyle vonnagera ESPN staff writer.
Speaker 3 (00:27):
Kyle, welcome back to the show. How are you?
Speaker 4 (00:29):
I'm doing good man, How are you doing?
Speaker 3 (00:31):
All right?
Speaker 2 (00:32):
The Finding Dolores podcast and UH investigation.
Speaker 3 (00:38):
It's really interesting for me to follow along here.
Speaker 2 (00:41):
How did this become a thing that you decided you
wanted to put so much time, effort, energy into.
Speaker 4 (00:49):
Yeah, no, thanks for asking about it. It's it's it's
a it's a long story. It's kind of a wild story.
But the short version is that you know, back in
twenty twenty might call it and I call it. Adam
Rittenberg and I stumbled stumbled onto this story about what
happened to Paul Wolf growing up. Paul was the coach
of Washington State for a few years. He's now the
head coach at cal Pauly. And so we wrote this
(01:11):
big story that published in twenty twenty one. We spent
about ten months reporting it. But when we got to
the finish line. We just knew that there was so
much more to what happened that we weren't able to
get into for an ESPN audience, And so over the
last several years, we kept pursuing at it, picking away
at it, you know, found a good home for it
(01:32):
as a true crime podcast, and then went back to
the drawing board and reported it out from start to finish. Again,
we're happy to have to be starting to release for
three episodes. In the third episode, It's a Wild One,
it was released this morning.
Speaker 2 (01:45):
Are you a true crime podcast type enthusiast? Is this
something that has always been you know, as a fan,
I guess, before you decided to get into it yourself.
Speaker 4 (01:56):
Yeah, And I think so. I mean I've always It's
not like I'm listening to him all the time, but
when a compelling one kind of comes my way, I
certainly can get addicted. And I think more than just
like true crime, it's really just podcast storytelling in general
over a series, right, If you have a story that
can be told over a few episodes and something that's compelling,
you can get really invested in any sort of audio
(02:19):
documentary like that. I think it's a really entertaining form
of storytelling and something that I was always hopeful to
take a stab at. So with this one, it just
so happened that we ended up with a good story
that had a lot of potential in front of us,
and so we decided to move forward and turn it
into something really really comprehensive.
Speaker 2 (02:39):
Well cool, I recommend everyone go and check out what
you can of the the you said, episode three just
came out the Finding Dolores podcast.
Speaker 4 (02:50):
Yeah, so the podcast the full name is The Unforgotten
and it's season three and the name of our season
is Finding Dolores Wolf. So any of your podcasts as
to search for the Unforgotten Finding Doris wolfsh pop up
right there. I've been kind of posting it on it
on social media as well. Show it should be pretty
easy to find, uh, with a with a couple couple
(03:10):
keyword searches.
Speaker 2 (03:11):
All right, let's talk a little college football. I mean,
just scrolling down in your Twitter and the uh. I
don't know why my brain didn't do this already, but
the the equivalent of Bill Belichick going to North Carolina
and Bill Walsh going back to Stanford obviously is something
that you've touched on with ESPN and and it makes
(03:33):
total sense. And there's some great quotes about how you know,
even other coaches were in awe of a coach like
that coming back to the college football game. And I
was curious earlier in the summer whether or not Belichick
was going to be like this year's Dion Sanders because
of all the relationships stuff that was happening, and who
knows what.
Speaker 3 (03:52):
It's going to look like.
Speaker 2 (03:54):
How are we going to treat this story of one
of the all time great, maybe the all time great
head coach in NFL history, now testing out his hand
at the college football level. Are we going to be
as fascinated by him and by that as we were
last year and two years ago with Dion.
Speaker 4 (04:13):
I think it's going to be. I mean, it's a
good comp right. I think it's a comp between Bill
Walsh going back and the Dionne Sanders thing, right, because
it's the parallels with Walsh or you know Walsh in
ninety three when he went back to Stanford, and this
is a long story that I the re quarter of
the summer was that he was, you know, the pre
eminent football mind, the permanent living college football or a
(04:34):
football mind across the board. Right. He the installed a
dynasty in San Francisco with the forty nine ers, coached
the best quarterback at the time, Joe Montana, right, and
then accomplished everything there was to do, and then went
back to college where he was just viewed as this
kind of celebrity football genius. And you know a lot
of that applies to Bill Belichick of course, right. And
(04:55):
then of course it's a different era. You know, college
football is different, you know media is different, and so
you kind of blend that with Dion, this larger than
life figure coming back to college two years ago. We're
going to see some of both with Belichick, I think,
and I think he doesn't have the you know, the
flashy personality that Dion did, but he but what he
(05:17):
has is the just the bona fides as a coach, Right,
all the Super Bowl titles, everything of these accomplished on
that front, and so people are now going to question, Okay,
how does that how does that translate to the college level.
Dion's different. It was really how does his personality translate?
And what does having you know, an A list celebrity
in that seat do for a program? And we've seen
you know the impact that he has had over the
(05:38):
last couple of years. So I'm curious to see how
this plays out with Belichick. I know a lot of
people will be paying attention to North Carolina who wouldn't
have cared even a little bit about the Tar Heels
that if he wasn't if he wasn't the coach.
Speaker 2 (05:52):
As you're well aware, we're in Salt Lake City, so
we're focusing mostly on the Big Twelve Conference and specifically
the University of Utah. And depending on you know, your
favorite place, your favorite list, your favorite writer, you know,
the Big Twelve, it's some combination of there's going to
be a lot of parody and there's four or five
or six teams that could win the conference this year.
(06:13):
How do you handicap the Big Twelve and Utah's place
in that picture.
Speaker 4 (06:19):
It's it's a really interesting conversation, right because it like
five or six is the conversation now and five or
six was the conversation last year. But none of those
teams ended up being.
Speaker 3 (06:29):
The wrong five or six.
Speaker 4 (06:30):
Yeah, yeah, you know, so it's like, look, every wont
to say it was picked up, believe to come in
the last place in the conference. Last year and goes
on to win the conference, shows well in the playoffs.
I mean, BUYU was was down on that lest they
were competitive to the end. I don't think you know,
Iowa State was highly projected going into last year. Maybe
maybe they were a little bit higher than the other two,
but like you understand what I'm saying, and so, yeah, well,
(06:52):
the I think it's like it makes sense of why
the five six teams are in the spotlight now. But
I think the lesson is the right, Like, this is
a really even conference to begin with, just resources wise,
and then on top of that, you've also just got
this weird free agency dynamic that really changes how you
prepare for a college football season. No one really knows
(07:13):
anything anymore. It was always hard to project college football
in a way, right, there was a formula returning starters,
last year's success, coaching success, all those things. But now
these rosters are basically starting over. And so I think
that's compelling in that way because look, as good as
we think, you know, Texas Tech might be or Baylor
(07:34):
or Arizona State, you know, we won't really have a
great sense until probably the end of September.
Speaker 3 (07:42):
If then, right, because yeah, exactly.
Speaker 4 (07:45):
That's exactly right, because.
Speaker 2 (07:46):
Everyone beats everyone in these conferences sometimes. And you know,
you and I have both spent a lot of time
covering PAC twelve sports, and there's a new PAC twelve,
but the original, you know, the sort of legacy brands
in the PAC twelve conference are all scattered to the
wind acc Big ten. Some landed in the Big twelve,
(08:08):
and that conference was plagued by its own parody. That
conference was plagued by being thick through the middle and
not having the elite blue blood brands also be elite
blue blood competitors in the final years, notwithstanding that Washington
run to a national championship when it had already been
decided that the PAC twelve was gonna die. Basically, but
(08:31):
I have this you know, traumatic memory that is getting
stirred up again where everyone's just like, if everyone is
great in your conference, then nobody is. And the national
conversation around the PAC twelve for like five years was
just like, ah, well have fun out there, guys, We're
not going to watch because there's no great team. It
(08:52):
feels like the Big twelve is headed down that path
or is firmly in the middle of that path.
Speaker 3 (08:57):
Right now.
Speaker 4 (08:59):
Yeah, there's some strong parallels there, But what I'll say is,
like the main difference now and why it's not as
big an issue for the Big twelve is like, as
the PAC twelve was dealing with that, it was a
four team playoff, right, and so there was the best
team was going to be outside of the national conversation
because they didn't factor into the Top four playoff discussion.
Now because there is access for the Big twelve champion regardless, right,
(09:22):
I mean, you could drum up the scenario where they
wouldn't get in, but like on ninety nine percent of
the time the Big with under the current format, the
Big four champion would go to the playoffs, right, And
so as long as your your conference champion is relevant
in the playoff discussion, which it will be, right, I
still think that Booy's the conference in a way that
the PAC twelve didn't have. Like if the twelve team
(09:44):
format existed, you know, back you know, at the start
of the four team era, I don't think the PAC
twelve would have been as irrelevant as it became because
he still would have been in the playoff every year
and there would have been a reason nationally to pay
attention to the race because it factored into what would
happened at the end of the year. And so for me,
that was always such a contributing factor into like notoriety
(10:06):
of that PAC twelve is that the fourteen playoff just
completely sabotaged the PAC twelve in a way that it
really boosted the ACC. Right, the AEC was a terrible
conference for much of that time, but they had clems in,
you know, keeping them relevant year after year when they
were at the peak of their powers. You had Florida State,
you know, give them a nice bump. And that just
didn't happen for the PAC twelve in the same way.
(10:29):
And so yeah, I wouldn't be as concerned now about
the Big twelve not factoring in nationally as the PAC
twelve did, just because those factors are so much different.
Speaker 2 (10:38):
Kyle Bona gerz my guest here on the show O'Connell Show,
talking all things college football. As we head into the
twenty twenty five season, the playoff inclusiveness conversation is happening again,
you know, twenty four and twenty eighteen models. I guess
being floated around more likely scenario seems to be like
a sixteen team model, a lot of disagreement over all
(11:00):
automatic bids and things like that. So your point is
well made that the four team model was problematic for
the Pac twelve and for the Big twelve in some
of those years as well, and now a twelve team
model that solved the problem last year. For a lot
of these conferences and a lot of these access points
we're only going to get to hang on to.
Speaker 3 (11:19):
It seems like for a couple of years.
Speaker 2 (11:21):
What is the most likely outcome for you when it
comes to an expanded college football playoff and the Big
Ten and the SEC having so much power in that
decision making process.
Speaker 4 (11:33):
Yeah, I think the look at the guiding light is
probably just small incremental changes and so I mean that's
just been how college sports is always operated, right, So
we saw I go from two to four to twelve,
So I think sixteen is probably the next likely step.
How they do the you know, how they determine who's
in the field. I think there's obviously a number of
(11:54):
ways that could still go, but I think sixteen is possible.
And I just look at you look at CEA. They're
at twenty four, right, So there's already a model that
the NCAA uses to determine a champion in football that's
larger than sixteen, and it's a model that has worked
out really well for that level. And I think what
we're going to see is, look as the as the
playoff grows, it's going to continue to devalue the bowl games, right.
(12:18):
And so you know, if you're the thirteenth team now,
like your bowl game probably didn't seem as important because
you thought you were going to be in the playoffs,
And that'll be the case when you're the seventeen team
and there's six a sixteen team playoff, right, And that's
going to keep trickling down and devalue all all the
balls outside of the outside of the playoff system. And
so I think eventually there's just going to be more
(12:40):
an appetite to grow. And look if it gets to
twenty four or twenty eight or whatever, Like I'm watching
all those games in college football, fans are watching all
those games too, and so I eventually just money is
going to rule the day. I think the ratings will
kind of guide everyone in where to and where to go,
and whether that's good or bad or somewhere in between.
You is obviously up for individual interpretation, but I think
(13:01):
that's probably how this is going to play out.
Speaker 2 (13:05):
How many must watch players are there in college football
right now? Where you just the team is what it is,
but there's a player that you're like, I need to
see what he's going to do this year.
Speaker 3 (13:15):
Your number is.
Speaker 2 (13:16):
Probably larger than a lot of casual fans, or maybe
it's smaller because you know, it becomes a job for you.
But how many must watch players are there?
Speaker 4 (13:26):
Yeah, I'm probably not the best person for that question, honestly,
Like I'm very team oriented, and whatever the national headlines are,
it's going to dictate kind of where I'm watching. Look,
arch Manning right now, is he is the interesting player
in college football? You know, we have illicitious and like
top top hundred players in the country. That'll kind of
kind of goes over all of that stuff that will
(13:48):
help me guide stuff. But like right now, like I'm
so team focused that like it's it's for me, it's
not even about watching players. So that's a bad answer,
But I'm just I'm not the right person for for
for watching football that way.
Speaker 3 (14:01):
I've asked a couple of people this question today.
Speaker 2 (14:03):
In the big picture, you know, the NCAA is trying
to stay relevant in the world of college football, and
they're handing out sanctions, and they handed out some more
sanctions to the University of Michigan in the sign stealing situation.
And you know, there's a lot of literature out there
right now about how Jim Harbaugh is like the most
(14:25):
pedalized cheater in the history of college sports and whatnot.
But you look at you know, Michigan undeniable college football
blue blood, and yes they get slapped with something, But
are we looking at that are other teams that are
in similar situations, looking at what has happened through this
whole process, to the Michigan reputation, to the individuals involved,
(14:49):
to you know, the podcasts and the Netflix specials released.
Is there enough meat on the bone to say, gosh, guys,
you can't get away with it. And when you don't
get away with it, it's just not good for your
football program. Or is everyone looking at this and being like, eh,
you know what, they got to pay like twenty million
dollars in penalties, but they got a national championship out
of it, so worth it.
Speaker 4 (15:11):
Yeah, So I think it's like, what is the what
is the end result, right, you know, Michigan has a
national title, and basically any sort of punishment that comes
with a national title, like if they didn't take it away,
you got to live the experience. I think just about
every Michigan fani will be like, hey, we're fine with
how this play that we would if it played out
the same way again, would you rather have the cheating
and the national title or no cheating and no national title?
(15:35):
How many people you know are honestly picking no national
title with the cheating scandal, like you know, we're without it, right.
I just don't think it. I just don't think people
care enough about it. It's like, yes, it was cheating,
but it's also look, it's science feeling and it's bad
and they shouldn't do it. But it's not some egregious
you know. Uh so something that just is undefensible, like
(15:58):
cheating has been by our sport. It's for as long
as they as long as they've existed, and it will
be the case moving forward. But you know, I think
most problem most programs are probably in the same spot
where if you can get away with it, or you
can achieve something great, it's it's probably worth it. Certainly
the punishment and the you know, the puishment of Nansy
double A, all the bad prey, all the bad publicity.
(16:22):
It was all worth it for Michigan to get where
they ended up. And then look, Jim Harbuck goes off
from the Sunset, goes to the NFL and is rewarded
with a big new deal there and now he's trying
to win a Super Bowl.
Speaker 2 (16:32):
All right, unfair question before I let you go. Last
year we had Indiana surprise a lot of people. Arizona
State won the conference, as you already stated, when they
were thought to be one of the worst or the
worst in the conference. Is there a team out there
that you're like, God, they're going to surprise everyone this year?
Speaker 4 (16:53):
Yeah, so this probably, I mean, this kind of answers
your question, but they probably won't surprise a lot of people.
The team that I'm really interested in right now is
Texas Tech, and that's just because they, like you've we've
all seen the numbers, right Like, there's been rumors that
it's as much as forty million dollars spent on that roster,
and so they wouldn't supply it shouldn't surprise anyone if
they're good. But I am curious from the standpoint of, like,
(17:14):
what does forty million dollars get you? Right, it's let's
let's let's let's see how direct a correlation there will
be between having that big of an off season in
the transfer portal and recruiting using that using that oil
money to build a winner. And if it works, I
think you'll see other teams try to follow with similar
formula and just really do everything they can to go
(17:36):
for it in a single year.
Speaker 2 (17:40):
Yeah, I'm hoping that it doesn't work, but I'm a
little bit worried that it might. So we'll see Texas
Tech on the Utah football schedule, will be paying close attention,
We'll be reading everything you write, and I really do
hope that we all get a chance to keep listening
to the story of mister That's it's crazy that we're
(18:00):
going to see Paul wolf in excuse me, in week
two for the University of Utah on their football schedule,
you know, while we're listening to this podcast.
Speaker 4 (18:11):
No, I think what it does too is like a
lot of people under like know Paul Wolfe for his
tenure at Washington State where they just didn't win a
lot of games, but I think when you have this
added context about what he went through as a kid,
his mother what missing when he was twelve years old
and they didn't identify her remains for forty one years
after that, Like it really like will help understand who
(18:31):
he is as a person. Really a great guy, really
a great man. It should be motivating for a lot
of people, and I think it really the the contrast
of what you learned in the podcast versus what you
may have already thought about him will really shape shape
your feelings for sure.
Speaker 2 (18:45):
The Unforgotten Finding Dolores Wolf. Check it out and read
everything that Kyle Bonagera writes for ESPN.
Speaker 3 (18:52):
Thanks KYLEI thanks
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