July 9, 2025 • 11 mins
Did NASA really invent your car tires in space? 🚀 In this episode, we uncover the fascinating truth behind the myth that modern tire technology was born on the Moon. Learn how NASA and Goodyear teamed up during the Apollo missions to develop revolutionary tire designs for the Lunar Roving Vehicle—and how those innovations transformed everyday driving on Earth.🔧 Discover how space-age materials, mesh designs, and durability testing in extreme lunar conditions led to:
- Advanced tread patterns for better traction
- Long-lasting, puncture-resistant tires
- Run-flat technology used in today's vehicles
Mark as Played
Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:00):
Okay, think about this for a second. Your car tires.
You rely on them every single day, right, there are
these incredibly complex bits of engineering keeping you safe on
the road. But have you ever like actually wondered where
they came from? Because there's this story, this really persistent
idea that the modern car tire, you know, the super
(00:20):
durable ones with all the fancy treads, that they were
actually invented by NASA, like up in space and then
brought down here for us. And honestly, it's a really
compelling story, isn't it. I mean, the thought that your
tires might have some kind of uh, moon roving DNA
that's pretty cool. It sort of makes sense too, you figure,
space pushes technology to the limit. So today on this
(00:40):
deeep dig, that's exactly what we're gonna do. We're gonna
journey into that whole area of kind of peel back
the layers and figure out what the real story is.
And I gotta tell you the truth behind it. It's
actually even more interesting, more insightful than the myth.
Speaker 2 (00:51):
It really is, that idea of space tick just appearing
on Earth think crafts people, and you know, there's a
grain of truth there that feeds it. There absolutely was
this ground break making collaboration, NASA working hand in hand
with companies good Year, for example, during the Apollo missions.
That partnership definitely led to some incredible breakthroughs. But the
key thing to understand, and this is where it gets fascinating,
(01:12):
is that it wasn't like this suddenly invented the modern
tire fully formed.
Speaker 3 (01:16):
On the Moon.
Speaker 2 (01:17):
It was more of a profound evolution, an acceleration really
of engineering thinking that absolutely transformed hire tech back here
on Earth. And understanding that difference, it tells you a
lot about how big innovations actually happen, less Eureka and
more pushing boundaries and really extreme situations.
Speaker 1 (01:34):
Okay, right, so let's just dive straight into that. Let's
tackle that common belief head on for you listening, do
the tires on your car actually come from the Moon,
Because the story lots of us have heard is that, Yeah,
the high durability, the complex treads, maybe even run flat
tech all dreamed up by NASA for the Moon missions
and then just boom handed over for our cars sound
(01:55):
almost like a movie plot.
Speaker 3 (01:56):
And you could see how that story took route. That
collaboration between NASA and companies like Goodyear. It was real,
it was intense, and it was very public. During Apollo,
people saw these amazing lunar rovers, the moon buggies doing
incredible things up there. So it's kind of natural to
connect the dots, right, You see this amazing space tech,
then you see tires getting better back home.
Speaker 1 (02:17):
Yeah.
Speaker 3 (02:17):
But while Apollo absolutely spurred huge leaps in material science
and design and engineering methods, the idea that the tire
itself was invented in space, that's just not accurate. It was,
like I said, in evolution, really powerful fast track development
forced by the unique challenges of space, not a totally
new invention starting from zero.
Speaker 1 (02:35):
Okay, So if not invented there, what's the real link?
What actually happened to get that? We need to go
back to this massive engineering problem NASA face. They needed
a vehicle, right that could actually drive around on the Moon.
We're talking about the lunar Roguan vehicle, the LRV, the
Moon buggy, and just try to picture that environment. It's
a vacuum, no air, no roads obviously, and crucially absolutely
(02:57):
zero chance of calling roadside assistance for a flat I mean,
these are missions where failure wasn't just an inconvenience, It
could be well fatal exactly.
Speaker 3 (03:06):
So the engineer said this fundamental question, how on Earth,
or rather off Earth, do you design something for that
an environment so hostile, so alien. The LRV tires needed
to handle conditions that are just well mine bending. Think
about it, gravity, that's only one sixth the verts driving
over sharp, jagged rocks and through this deep, powdery moondust
they call it regless. It's incredibly abrasive stuff. And then
(03:27):
the temperatures swings from what minus two hundred and eighty
degrees fahnheit and the lunar night up to plus two
hundred and sixty degrees fahahite in the day, just insane.
Your normal rubber tire forget it. It would either freeze
solid and shatter or melt into goo.
Speaker 1 (03:40):
Right, it just wouldn't work. So that's where Goodyear came
in with this really clever solution. And this is where
it gets wild because what they developed for the LRV
it looked nothing like a car tire, nothing at all.
It was this unique airless mesh design made out of
get this zinc coated piano wire seriously like from a
piano wire mesh gave it flexibility, incredible strength, and amazing durability,
(04:04):
all without needing any air inside. So yeah, they weren't
inventing the kind of radial tire we used today, the
ones with belts under the tread. This was something else, entirely,
a totally specialized adaptation for a completely alien world, almost
like a different species of wheel.
Speaker 3 (04:17):
You know, that's a great way to put it. And
what's key is how they had to completely rethink design principles.
They couldn't just tweak existing ideas. They had to innovate
because their requirements were so extreme. First, it had to
be incredibly lightweight. Every single ounce counts when you're launching
something into space. Launch costs are astronomical literally. Then it
needed absolutely uncompromising traction, not on smooth pavement but on
(04:41):
loose dust, uneven ground, sharp rocks, and finally, sheer durability.
It had to resist punctures, tears, degradation. Failure just wasn't
an option up there. So even though this mesh tire
doesn't look like your road tire, the process of creating it,
of solving those impossible problems that laid this crucial groundwork
for new ways of thinking about materials about structure, about
(05:02):
how a wheel interacts with the surface without relying on
air pressure. That shift in perspective was enormous.
Speaker 1 (05:07):
It's still kind of hard to wrap your head around though.
Zinc coated piano wire. It sounds more like, I don't know,
something cobbled together in a sci fi movie than a
serious piece of engineering for NASA. How did they even
land on that specific material.
Speaker 3 (05:19):
Well, that really speaks to the whole mindset of the
Apollo program, doesn't it. They were literally designing for the unknown.
The engineers basically started from scratch. What are the absolute
must have properties for something to move on the Moon.
It needed to be flexible to mold to the ground
for grip. It needed to be strong, incredibly strong against
punctures from those sharp lunar rocks, and it had to
(05:42):
survive those temperature swings. Rubber was immediately out, so they
looked elsewhere. What materials have incredible tensile strength, are resilient
but still flexible. Piano wire surprisingly fit. The bill is
designed to withstand huge tension, and it can be woven
into a mesh that has both strength and give. It
wasn't about making a better rubber tire. It was about
inventing a whole new kind of wheel system that could
(06:03):
actually function in that impossible environment.
Speaker 1 (06:06):
Okay, okay, that makes more sense. The genius was in
ditching the old assumptions entirely. But let's bring this back
down to earth for you listening. So what does all
this actually mean for your car driving around today? You're
definitely not rolling on tiana wire. How does this super
specialized airless wire mesh moon wheel have any real connection
to the tires you rely on every day.
Speaker 3 (06:27):
Ah, that's the crucial link. That's the trickle down effect.
While you absolutely won't find those specific wire tires on
your car. The engineering breakthroughs, the problem solving techniques, and
maybe most importantly, the mindset shift that came out of
that intense space work that had a direct, very real
impact back here. The moon basically acted as the ultimate
(06:48):
most extreme test lab imaginable. It forced innovations and conceptual
jumps that then filtered down into the tires we use
every day, making them better faster than they might have
otherwise developed.
Speaker 1 (06:57):
Right, So let's break that down. First up, advanced trad design.
You mentioned the lunar surface was this mix of dust
and rocks, super unpredictable.
Speaker 3 (07:05):
Exactly that wire mesh, even though it was airless, it
still had to flex and grip that surface incredibly well.
It forced engineers to really really analyze how any flexible
structure makes contact with the ground, how it distributes load,
how it maximizes grip on varied terrain.
Speaker 1 (07:23):
So studying how that wire mesh deformed and gripped.
Speaker 3 (07:27):
Uh huh, that deep dive into the physics of contact
directly influenced how they designed the complex rubber tread patterns
we see now. They took those principles learn from figuring
out the wire mesh on lunar dust and apply them
to rubber on asphalt, gravel, rain Snow, it wasn't about
copying the wire itself, but about understanding the fundamental principles
(07:47):
of traction and stability, how to make rubber bite into
the road much more effectively under all sorts of conditions.
Speaker 1 (07:53):
Okay, that makes sense. And second, you mentioned high durability materials.
Speaker 3 (07:57):
Yeah, this is a big one. The hunt for materials
that could survive space vacuum, the radiation those insane temperature
swings led to major advances in polymer science, in composites,
in reinforcing materials.
Speaker 1 (08:08):
Things that wouldn't break down or fail under extreme.
Speaker 3 (08:11):
Stress, precisely, and that research directly benefited tire manufacturing back
on Earth. Advanced polymers, stronger synthetic rubbers, better reinforcing cords.
Much of that comes from knowledge gained or accelerated by
the Space program's demands. That's a key reason why your
tires today last so much longer, resist punctures better, and
(08:31):
handle temperature changes far more effectively than tires from say,
fifty years ago. The lessons in resilience learned in space
translated directly to more robust tires for your car.
Speaker 1 (08:42):
And then the third one, run flat tire technology. This
feels like a really direct conceptual link.
Speaker 3 (08:47):
It absolutely is. Think about the core problem on the Moon.
You cannot have a flat tire stop the mission. You
need self reliance, that absolute need for a wheel that
keeps working even if compromised without air, without needing immediate repair.
That mindset directly paved the way for developing run flat
tires for cars. Obviously, today's run flats use reinforced rubber
(09:08):
side walls, not wire mesh, but the fundamental concept is
the same. Keep going safely after a puncture.
Speaker 1 (09:13):
Right, you get a puncture, but you can still drive
maybe fifty miles or so to get help instead of
being stranded on the side of the road.
Speaker 3 (09:20):
Exactly. It's a huge safety improvement, and that ability to
drive away from a flat that has a clear conceptual
lineage right back to ensuring the astronauts could keep roving
on the Moon no matter what.
Speaker 1 (09:32):
So, putting it all together, it's clear the Moon missions
were this incredible catalyst. Right. They didn't hand us the
modern tire on a plate, but they threw down these
impossible challenges.
Speaker 3 (09:43):
Challenges that forced engineers to think way outside the box,
to push materials and designs to their absolute.
Speaker 1 (09:50):
Limits and solving those problems, problems that they'd never encounter
just designing for Earth roads generated all this new knowledge,
these new principles.
Speaker 3 (09:57):
Which then came back down to Earth and dramatically accelerated
the evolution of the tires we all depend on. It
really was about reimagining what was possible under extreme duress.
Speaker 1 (10:06):
So as we wrap up this deep dive, the main
takeaway is pretty clear, isn't it. Tires weren't invented in space.
That part's the myth. But human ingenuity our drive to
explore and overcome obstacles that absolutely reached space. We tackled
these unbelievable challenges, pushed engineering to its edge, and the
insights we gained from that they genuinely made our lives
(10:26):
back here on Earth safer, easier, more reliable. It's not
just a tech story. It's really a testament to human
creativity and those unexpected benefits that come from aiming high.
Speaker 3 (10:38):
It really is, and it makes you wonder, doesn't it?
What other big challenges? Maybe things happening right now in
fields that seem totally unrelated medicine, computing, material science. What
hidden connections are being forged? How might breakthroughs in one
area be quietly shaping the everyday technologies around us, the
things we take for granted, in ways we won't even
realize for years to come. It's kind of exciting to
(10:58):
think about looking for those three.
Speaker 1 (11:00):
Absolutely, it's all about spotting those unexpected connections, those aha moments. Well,
thank you so much for joining us on this deep
dive today. If you enjoyed figuring out the real story
behind your tires, definitely hit that subscribe button for this channel.
We've got plenty more fascinating topics coming your way that
you won't want to miss. And hey, if you're curious
(11:21):
for more surprising insights right now, why not browse through
some of our previous deep dives. There's bound to be
something else that sparks your curiosity. Until next time, keep
questioning and keep exploring.
Okay, think about this for a second. Your car tires.
You rely on them every single day, right, there are
these incredibly complex bits of engineering keeping you safe on
the road. But have you ever like actually wondered where
they came from? Because there's this story, this really persistent
idea that the modern car tire, you know, the super
(00:20):
durable ones with all the fancy treads, that they were
actually invented by NASA, like up in space and then
brought down here for us. And honestly, it's a really
compelling story, isn't it. I mean, the thought that your
tires might have some kind of uh, moon roving DNA
that's pretty cool. It sort of makes sense too, you figure,
space pushes technology to the limit. So today on this
(00:40):
deeep dig, that's exactly what we're gonna do. We're gonna
journey into that whole area of kind of peel back
the layers and figure out what the real story is.
And I gotta tell you the truth behind it. It's
actually even more interesting, more insightful than the myth.
Speaker 2 (00:51):
It really is, that idea of space tick just appearing
on Earth think crafts people, and you know, there's a
grain of truth there that feeds it. There absolutely was
this ground break making collaboration, NASA working hand in hand
with companies good Year, for example, during the Apollo missions.
That partnership definitely led to some incredible breakthroughs. But the
key thing to understand, and this is where it gets fascinating,
(01:12):
is that it wasn't like this suddenly invented the modern
tire fully formed.
Speaker 3 (01:16):
On the Moon.
Speaker 2 (01:17):
It was more of a profound evolution, an acceleration really
of engineering thinking that absolutely transformed hire tech back here
on Earth. And understanding that difference, it tells you a
lot about how big innovations actually happen, less Eureka and
more pushing boundaries and really extreme situations.
Speaker 1 (01:34):
Okay, right, so let's just dive straight into that. Let's
tackle that common belief head on for you listening, do
the tires on your car actually come from the Moon,
Because the story lots of us have heard is that, Yeah,
the high durability, the complex treads, maybe even run flat
tech all dreamed up by NASA for the Moon missions
and then just boom handed over for our cars sound
(01:55):
almost like a movie plot.
Speaker 3 (01:56):
And you could see how that story took route. That
collaboration between NASA and companies like Goodyear. It was real,
it was intense, and it was very public. During Apollo,
people saw these amazing lunar rovers, the moon buggies doing
incredible things up there. So it's kind of natural to
connect the dots, right, You see this amazing space tech,
then you see tires getting better back home.
Speaker 1 (02:17):
Yeah.
Speaker 3 (02:17):
But while Apollo absolutely spurred huge leaps in material science
and design and engineering methods, the idea that the tire
itself was invented in space, that's just not accurate. It was,
like I said, in evolution, really powerful fast track development
forced by the unique challenges of space, not a totally
new invention starting from zero.
Speaker 1 (02:35):
Okay, So if not invented there, what's the real link?
What actually happened to get that? We need to go
back to this massive engineering problem NASA face. They needed
a vehicle, right that could actually drive around on the Moon.
We're talking about the lunar Roguan vehicle, the LRV, the
Moon buggy, and just try to picture that environment. It's
a vacuum, no air, no roads obviously, and crucially absolutely
(02:57):
zero chance of calling roadside assistance for a flat I mean,
these are missions where failure wasn't just an inconvenience, It
could be well fatal exactly.
Speaker 3 (03:06):
So the engineer said this fundamental question, how on Earth,
or rather off Earth, do you design something for that
an environment so hostile, so alien. The LRV tires needed
to handle conditions that are just well mine bending. Think
about it, gravity, that's only one sixth the verts driving
over sharp, jagged rocks and through this deep, powdery moondust
they call it regless. It's incredibly abrasive stuff. And then
(03:27):
the temperatures swings from what minus two hundred and eighty
degrees fahnheit and the lunar night up to plus two
hundred and sixty degrees fahahite in the day, just insane.
Your normal rubber tire forget it. It would either freeze
solid and shatter or melt into goo.
Speaker 1 (03:40):
Right, it just wouldn't work. So that's where Goodyear came
in with this really clever solution. And this is where
it gets wild because what they developed for the LRV
it looked nothing like a car tire, nothing at all.
It was this unique airless mesh design made out of
get this zinc coated piano wire seriously like from a
piano wire mesh gave it flexibility, incredible strength, and amazing durability,
(04:04):
all without needing any air inside. So yeah, they weren't
inventing the kind of radial tire we used today, the
ones with belts under the tread. This was something else, entirely,
a totally specialized adaptation for a completely alien world, almost
like a different species of wheel.
Speaker 3 (04:17):
You know, that's a great way to put it. And
what's key is how they had to completely rethink design principles.
They couldn't just tweak existing ideas. They had to innovate
because their requirements were so extreme. First, it had to
be incredibly lightweight. Every single ounce counts when you're launching
something into space. Launch costs are astronomical literally. Then it
needed absolutely uncompromising traction, not on smooth pavement but on
(04:41):
loose dust, uneven ground, sharp rocks, and finally, sheer durability.
It had to resist punctures, tears, degradation. Failure just wasn't
an option up there. So even though this mesh tire
doesn't look like your road tire, the process of creating it,
of solving those impossible problems that laid this crucial groundwork
for new ways of thinking about materials about structure, about
(05:02):
how a wheel interacts with the surface without relying on
air pressure. That shift in perspective was enormous.
Speaker 1 (05:07):
It's still kind of hard to wrap your head around though.
Zinc coated piano wire. It sounds more like, I don't know,
something cobbled together in a sci fi movie than a
serious piece of engineering for NASA. How did they even
land on that specific material.
Speaker 3 (05:19):
Well, that really speaks to the whole mindset of the
Apollo program, doesn't it. They were literally designing for the unknown.
The engineers basically started from scratch. What are the absolute
must have properties for something to move on the Moon.
It needed to be flexible to mold to the ground
for grip. It needed to be strong, incredibly strong against
punctures from those sharp lunar rocks, and it had to
(05:42):
survive those temperature swings. Rubber was immediately out, so they
looked elsewhere. What materials have incredible tensile strength, are resilient
but still flexible. Piano wire surprisingly fit. The bill is
designed to withstand huge tension, and it can be woven
into a mesh that has both strength and give. It
wasn't about making a better rubber tire. It was about
inventing a whole new kind of wheel system that could
(06:03):
actually function in that impossible environment.
Speaker 1 (06:06):
Okay, okay, that makes more sense. The genius was in
ditching the old assumptions entirely. But let's bring this back
down to earth for you listening. So what does all
this actually mean for your car driving around today? You're
definitely not rolling on tiana wire. How does this super
specialized airless wire mesh moon wheel have any real connection
to the tires you rely on every day.
Speaker 3 (06:27):
Ah, that's the crucial link. That's the trickle down effect.
While you absolutely won't find those specific wire tires on
your car. The engineering breakthroughs, the problem solving techniques, and
maybe most importantly, the mindset shift that came out of
that intense space work that had a direct, very real
impact back here. The moon basically acted as the ultimate
(06:48):
most extreme test lab imaginable. It forced innovations and conceptual
jumps that then filtered down into the tires we use
every day, making them better faster than they might have
otherwise developed.
Speaker 1 (06:57):
Right, So let's break that down. First up, advanced trad design.
You mentioned the lunar surface was this mix of dust
and rocks, super unpredictable.
Speaker 3 (07:05):
Exactly that wire mesh, even though it was airless, it
still had to flex and grip that surface incredibly well.
It forced engineers to really really analyze how any flexible
structure makes contact with the ground, how it distributes load,
how it maximizes grip on varied terrain.
Speaker 1 (07:23):
So studying how that wire mesh deformed and gripped.
Speaker 3 (07:27):
Uh huh, that deep dive into the physics of contact
directly influenced how they designed the complex rubber tread patterns
we see now. They took those principles learn from figuring
out the wire mesh on lunar dust and apply them
to rubber on asphalt, gravel, rain Snow, it wasn't about
copying the wire itself, but about understanding the fundamental principles
(07:47):
of traction and stability, how to make rubber bite into
the road much more effectively under all sorts of conditions.
Speaker 1 (07:53):
Okay, that makes sense. And second, you mentioned high durability materials.
Speaker 3 (07:57):
Yeah, this is a big one. The hunt for materials
that could survive space vacuum, the radiation those insane temperature
swings led to major advances in polymer science, in composites,
in reinforcing materials.
Speaker 1 (08:08):
Things that wouldn't break down or fail under extreme.
Speaker 3 (08:11):
Stress, precisely, and that research directly benefited tire manufacturing back
on Earth. Advanced polymers, stronger synthetic rubbers, better reinforcing cords.
Much of that comes from knowledge gained or accelerated by
the Space program's demands. That's a key reason why your
tires today last so much longer, resist punctures better, and
(08:31):
handle temperature changes far more effectively than tires from say,
fifty years ago. The lessons in resilience learned in space
translated directly to more robust tires for your car.
Speaker 1 (08:42):
And then the third one, run flat tire technology. This
feels like a really direct conceptual link.
Speaker 3 (08:47):
It absolutely is. Think about the core problem on the Moon.
You cannot have a flat tire stop the mission. You
need self reliance, that absolute need for a wheel that
keeps working even if compromised without air, without needing immediate repair.
That mindset directly paved the way for developing run flat
tires for cars. Obviously, today's run flats use reinforced rubber
(09:08):
side walls, not wire mesh, but the fundamental concept is
the same. Keep going safely after a puncture.
Speaker 1 (09:13):
Right, you get a puncture, but you can still drive
maybe fifty miles or so to get help instead of
being stranded on the side of the road.
Speaker 3 (09:20):
Exactly. It's a huge safety improvement, and that ability to
drive away from a flat that has a clear conceptual
lineage right back to ensuring the astronauts could keep roving
on the Moon no matter what.
Speaker 1 (09:32):
So, putting it all together, it's clear the Moon missions
were this incredible catalyst. Right. They didn't hand us the
modern tire on a plate, but they threw down these
impossible challenges.
Speaker 3 (09:43):
Challenges that forced engineers to think way outside the box,
to push materials and designs to their absolute.
Speaker 1 (09:50):
Limits and solving those problems, problems that they'd never encounter
just designing for Earth roads generated all this new knowledge,
these new principles.
Speaker 3 (09:57):
Which then came back down to Earth and dramatically accelerated
the evolution of the tires we all depend on. It
really was about reimagining what was possible under extreme duress.
Speaker 1 (10:06):
So as we wrap up this deep dive, the main
takeaway is pretty clear, isn't it. Tires weren't invented in space.
That part's the myth. But human ingenuity our drive to
explore and overcome obstacles that absolutely reached space. We tackled
these unbelievable challenges, pushed engineering to its edge, and the
insights we gained from that they genuinely made our lives
(10:26):
back here on Earth safer, easier, more reliable. It's not
just a tech story. It's really a testament to human
creativity and those unexpected benefits that come from aiming high.
Speaker 3 (10:38):
It really is, and it makes you wonder, doesn't it?
What other big challenges? Maybe things happening right now in
fields that seem totally unrelated medicine, computing, material science. What
hidden connections are being forged? How might breakthroughs in one
area be quietly shaping the everyday technologies around us, the
things we take for granted, in ways we won't even
realize for years to come. It's kind of exciting to
(10:58):
think about looking for those three.
Speaker 1 (11:00):
Absolutely, it's all about spotting those unexpected connections, those aha moments. Well,
thank you so much for joining us on this deep
dive today. If you enjoyed figuring out the real story
behind your tires, definitely hit that subscribe button for this channel.
We've got plenty more fascinating topics coming your way that
you won't want to miss. And hey, if you're curious
(11:21):
for more surprising insights right now, why not browse through
some of our previous deep dives. There's bound to be
something else that sparks your curiosity. Until next time, keep
questioning and keep exploring.
Popular Podcasts
Stuff You Should Know
If you've ever wanted to know about champagne, satanism, the Stonewall Uprising, chaos theory, LSD, El Nino, true crime and Rosa Parks, then look no further. Josh and Chuck have you covered.
Dateline NBC
Current and classic episodes, featuring compelling true-crime mysteries, powerful documentaries and in-depth investigations. Follow now to get the latest episodes of Dateline NBC completely free, or subscribe to Dateline Premium for ad-free listening and exclusive bonus content: DatelinePremium.com
New Heights with Jason & Travis Kelce
Football’s funniest family duo — Jason Kelce of the Philadelphia Eagles and Travis Kelce of the Kansas City Chiefs — team up to provide next-level access to life in the league as it unfolds. The two brothers and Super Bowl champions drop weekly insights about the weekly slate of games and share their INSIDE perspectives on trending NFL news and sports headlines. They also endlessly rag on each other as brothers do, chat the latest in pop culture and welcome some very popular and well-known friends to chat with them. Check out new episodes every Wednesday. Follow New Heights on the Wondery App, YouTube or wherever you get your podcasts. You can listen to new episodes early and ad-free, and get exclusive content on Wondery+. Join Wondery+ in the Wondery App, Apple Podcasts or Spotify. And join our new membership for a unique fan experience by going to the New Heights YouTube channel now!