Bringing the Noise & the Numbers with Chuck D

Episode Transcript
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(00:02):
Hello, and good afternoon, goodmorning, good night. I have a
wonderful, wonderful guest with me today, my hero. Yeah, Chuck D,
Chuck D. Thank you for joiningme on this great day. I
mean we were talking off camera abouta lot of things, but or I

(00:22):
sure want to have it on camera. And I'm looking at your your your
background with all of the books andyeah, but stop your hero, my
hero for a very long time.We go back in my family to the
sixties, honoring and saluting all ofyour your prowess and and your stance and

(00:46):
your perseverance most of all too.Yeah, yeah, awesome. Hey tell
me your book, The History ofof hip Hop. Tell us a little
bit about that book. The Historyof hip Hop was was born out of
the radio show that I've been doingfor thirteen years, which works like sixty

(01:07):
Minutes does, with news as asome of all parts, a lot of
contributors add up to two hours.It's called and You Don't Stop. And
I years ago started an internetwork calledRap Station where it has ten station channels
and the flagship shows And You Don'tStop, and we get very thorough and
concise about what hip hop is orwhat hip hop ain't and we nailed it,

(01:30):
and we pretty much nail the facts. So that was a segment that
we had that actually, you know, just was a segment every week.
It's really every day that told afactory about rap music and hip hop because
there's a lot of mythology out there, as you well know, and what
we want to do is, likethe facts clarify and when you back up

(01:53):
the facts with something that's evident andpeople could see in a line too,
they stopped spreading that mythology like thebarbershop is cool, but also the barbershop
got a lot of yeast popping offin it too. So these are facts.
And we took what used to bea radio thing and says these brothers
up from Montreal, Big Up theMount Reel, du Gepman and Ron Maskell.

(02:16):
They had years and years of scriptsfor their radio part, and I
said, well, why don't wemake a book out of it? So
that's how that came to be.I just curated it. Well for for
my audience, can you tell mewhen did it start? When did hip
hop start? When did rap start? Because I have some other ideas of

(02:36):
when it started back with lou Rawlsback and yeah, way back in those
days with jazz cats, and soI think, you know, well,
let's get to the fact. Rapmusic and hip hop are two different things.
Hip Hop is the definition of theculture of the disenfranchise being in black

(02:57):
folks. And you know, likeTracy, your family line, our family
line, you trace it back ahundred years. We couldn't just talk.
We had to come up with code. We had to come up and express
ourselves through different type of ways.So we expressed ourselves through Him's music,
maybe even chance while we were working. So we expressed ourselves. This area

(03:20):
of creativity has always been Black folk. That the term for the term of
creativity since about nineteen seventy three wouldbe hip hop. It happens to being
voice music, execution, dance,artwork. Those are the elements of hip
hop mc in DJ and graffiti,breakdancing. That's stuck creativity. Rap music

(03:42):
is not a rap. Music isnot a music. It's a vocal on
top of music. So the thingabout it, it's like you got talking,
you got singing rappers in between.And you know, Gil Scott Herron
is in the middle, he's onthe beat. James Brown is in the
middle of rapping. He could singAlso he could just talk and he could
also do the thing in the middle. There's only three vocal applications. You

(04:05):
can do talking, singing, andsomething in between. And that's what that's
where the rapp is because it's alittle bit of both. It could go
this way or that way, andsaying that rap would disappear, and I
know you've been hearing a three wishthis rap would go away? That's his
ludicrous and saying, I wonder whenthese singing records are gonna stop. So

(04:28):
his rapp is on top of themusic. The musics are already been defined
big jazz, be it blues,be it rhythm and blues, which his
soul. You know. So whenyou ever put a vocal on top of
music, it's called the process ofoverdubbing, you know. That's why in
Jamaica they had dub plates, becausedub plates so the DJs could talk on

(04:49):
top of it. So just thinkingAmerican nage version with the founders of hip
hop in the hip hop way,the DJ's Africa Bambid a cool Hurt Graham.
That's the flash. You talk ontop of the instrumentals, or you
make an instrumental, and that's thesame process of overdubbing. Just like if
you go into any radio place andthey got a you know, back in

(05:12):
the day, you would have aFrankie Crocker do his stick. You'll do
his style on top of an instrumentaland you can hear him and the instrumental
underneath him. But I would sayit is if somebody had to pick the
first rap record, I think theundisputed first rap record as we know it

(05:34):
meaning the rhythm meaning meaning the fourthfourth beats as we know it would be
pig meet Markham, Here come tojudge, Here come the judge. Yeah,
Markham, Yeah, yeah, yehear you the court this week.
I'm just about ready to do mything that don't want to no tricks,
no alibis, you know, andthey'll tell you another trip out that is

(05:59):
that on that record? Many Rippertonis on it, oh wow, because
they were doing a lot of theshows back then out of the Regal Theater
in Chicago, and she she was, and back then she was with Rotary
Connection, right exactly. Okay,but really the first the first hip hop,

(06:23):
I mean, the first rap recordundisputedly could be nineteen sixty eight produced
by my good friend and uh,you know a guy fa the mentor of
mine, Jane Barge. He producedit. Marris Jennings on the drum.
Many rippertons in the middle, soI take two orders to bear please.
He's the voice in the middle ofthat. And you know comedians had rapped

(06:47):
always in their vernacular, said MorrisJennis. Morris Jennis was the drama for
Ramson Lewis exactly. Yes, yeah, he passed away some years ago,
and he's another on of mine andGina Barge, my good friend who's the
daughter of Gene Barge, introduced meto all the chess guys. You know

(07:08):
Lewis Saddafield, who also was theinfluence for Earth Winding Fire. Yeah,
Pete Cozy who also played with myguitar, and Miles Yes, yes,
So all this is interlocked. Andso although I have the tag of rap
music, what we are music collectors, music lovers and aficionado's, especially of

(07:30):
black music, and all the namesthat contributed to black music that are obscured
it and passed over, and werefused to let that happen. Yeah,
I remember Pete and Pete Coach Leeand Miles Davis in two May, all
of those guys came to my homeand stayed with me. In Seattle.

(07:55):
We were putting on a jazz concertfor Miles at the Paramountain Northwest in Seattle.
Wow. And unto me was backthen, I don't want to eat
any meat, so you gotta makesure that I have a a vegan vegetarian

(08:15):
dish. And I had this Cadillac, this Cadillac that I had pimped out
like music. You had the musicwith it. I had the Cadillac pimped
out like super Fly. And MichaelHenderson loved that car. Between him and
Kareem, those were the two peoplethat loved that car. I hated that

(08:37):
car, really hated it because whathappened was when I was in Seattle,
I would get stopped by the policeand they were like, just search my
car and make it seems as ifI was a drug dealer and the car
looked like a super Fly. Wow. Me and Charlie Scott, once we
got into the league, we said, man, we want to get us

(08:58):
a cadigy. We want to freakit out and nothing but trouble. No,
I'm going to ask you as manyquestions that you're gonna ask me.
This this tape gonna be rolling.I mean, you know you did to
the way. I'm representing the Nickfan TV. You know young Cat over
there runs, you know, thegrowing Nick legion of podcasters. And they

(09:20):
went up to the CP, thefriend, the fanchise, and we got
to say and once the Nick,always a Knick, always in Knick.
Yeah. Yeah, So I'm gonnabe asking you as many questions too,
man, But big up become aNick fan? What what happened? How
did you you just from Long Islandbecause you had the nets? My mother,

(09:41):
my mother and father from one hundredand fifty first three in Harlow.
Okay, okay, my dad youknow Nick fan sister fifties. You know.
So I first became aware of mydad following the Knicks in sixty seven,
sixty eight. Wow, and um, that's how I've been a Knick
fan. So I was telling youthis is another week. I said,

(10:05):
the day you got traded to theKnicks, I hung it on my bedroom
wall. It was up there foryears until the wall came down. You
know. So I wish I wouldask a picture of it, man,
But I drew you back back.I think I sent you part of your
documentary my artwork I did at thattime. Yes, beautiful. And I

(10:26):
did a piece of artwork on yourhands. Yeah yeah, so it called
I called it the Hands of Haywood. So yeah, you're very very significant
part of my life. Especially whenyou became a nick. I was like,
whoa, this is this is heaven. Man. Yeah, they brought
me in. That was a bigtrade. That was a big deal back

(10:48):
then. They brought me in toreplace They brought me into replace Dave Debuscha,
uh, Jerry Lucas and Willis Reid, they all had retired and I
was like, and so I wasthere with Phil Jackson and Bill Bradley.

(11:09):
Bill Bradley was writing his memoirs andI'm rumored with him and I'm like,
wait a minute, I'm just starting, man. And the same thing with
Phil. Phil was sitting under RedHorseman trying to learn house to coach.
He was learning all the tricks ofthe trade, and it was it was
a very interesting time. And uhboy, I mean playing with Arl Munroe

(11:33):
because he had hurt his foot andso we would always walk around and talk
about, hey man, you needto see miss Rudolph. Because Richard Pryor
had the album out about you know, you gotta you gotta see miss Rudolph
and put your foot in, putyour foot in this piss then and the
monkey come out. And so hegot tired in here and that right,

(11:58):
he got tired. Yeah yeah,And so Wald Frazier and I were being
there stretching, and and then Istood on my head and one of the
photographers like, that's why we shot. I got that shot, like that's
what I'm saying. I'm standing onmy head in a yoga pose. And

(12:18):
the press got it and said that'swhy we're losing. Heywood is standing on
his head. See, they ain'tgot nothing else to say. They especially
like now, I mean, youknow, oh tell me, man,
it's like, all right, thegame is an hour and change, right,
it's a game, all right.We love the game. Yeah,

(12:39):
but I've never seen a time whereyou need like five hundred analysts for one
game. Man. It's like,I mean to me and football it got
crazy when you see like one footballgame. But how many analysts do you
need? Man? Yeah? Yeah, we get I'm making up stories.
Yeah I know, but that's themarketing. That's the the era we live

(13:01):
in. You know. Um,I wonder why another Nick player can't get
a job, and that's Mark Jackson. I can't figure this out. I
know he said some things, butthis was years ago, and I was
talking with another friend about the Knicksand about Mark Jackson, and I often

(13:26):
thought that he would have been agreat coach for the Knicks. Every time
the Knicks make a pick that makessense, like like drafting him, it
made sense. Um, it wouldhave made sense that you never trade Patrick
Ewing and yet you at least givehim a front office job. It would
have made sense to make one ofMark Jackson or Patrick Ewing the coach after

(13:50):
being assistant coaches. Well, wasan assistant coach for about five hundred years,
five hundred years Blue the ball man. It's like how long? How
long does a cat have to doassistant coaching before they get the coach or
they get tossing jobs around to aselect few. Me. I don't care.

(14:11):
I can attack the NBA because Iain't got no skin in the game,
you know what I mean. I'lldo your job with them. It's
a job, you know. Butwe got enough of a problem with rap
music and hip hop and cats,you know, odon and killing and talking
about it and stuff like that.So I don't have a lot of nerve
to be talking about what it isorganized and what seems to always at least

(14:33):
attempt to do the right thing.So, but sometimes you do scratch your
head and say, well, damn, this is you know, this is
this, this makes so much sense. And I don't use the word black
ball. I use white ball.A victim of white ball, Yeah,
I use white ball. And putsomebody back on the heels. And why
do you got to talk about araise? Yeah, hey, let me

(14:58):
let me step over to to hiphop again or to hip am I saying
it properly hip hop or rap oryou called on hip hop? Rap is
a part of it. You know, it's it's it's all good. It's
all good. Kendrick, you askedme the question about hip hop. Trust

(15:18):
me, I'll take it. Boomuntangle it handed back like this that.
Uh yeah, Kendrick Lamar right.I saw. I've been listening to his
music. He just came out witha new album. Uh. He has
been working with Cassimy Washington. Heworks he watched works with a lot of

(15:43):
young people and older Well, thisis a jazz cat that he works with.
The saxophonist It makes sense because youknow, a jazz cat is truly
um foundational. They're rooted and thenexploratory and they're not afraid to take chances

(16:04):
to go somewhere. And that's whatKendrick Lamar takes in his vocal execution.
And then he knows that the pressureis always on him to not do the
lowest, easy hanging fruit, sohe has to strive to be great.
And when you ask for that position, you got to come up and do
something and not try to It's ajazz cat goes out in there and don't

(16:27):
try to please. I mean,if you're not on my skill, if
you ain't able to receive on theskill that I give that I put my
time in, you could just reverseyour ass to take your ass home because
I ain't change it, and yougotta have a little bit of that.
I think in hip hop and rapmusic to further it to where it's long

(16:51):
lasting. I think it's easy topick low hanging fruit in anything or whether
sports and say, oh, you'rejust training yourself, just your three point
shoot. You don't dribble, youdon't do nothing else. That's how you
train yourself because you see the bag. Well, I think in hip hop,
it's easy to just see the bagand talk about what is already in

(17:11):
the air, But sometimes you haveto be watchful because the things that's put
in the air that you're plucking downbecause add not only to your in your
people's demise, but you'll never geta shot anyway might get shot, and
you don't never get a shot.So Kendrick Lamar is that other dude.
He strives to take chances and tobe great, and he knows he's talking

(17:36):
to a lot of ears that areopen but easy and just as quick to
close. So he's on attack toalways be great. So I dig that
at him. Who are some ofthe other young hip hoppers that you listen
to at this time? Well,I curate tens of thousands of tens of
hundreds of songs on rap stations,So every month I put out the job

(18:00):
fifty So you know, consequence substantial. You know you got people like and
you know women like Amy True forthe UK and Eugen Black Rock from South
Africa. Women are thirty percent ofhip hop and rap music. But you
gotta call you gotta, you gottaput in the international picture in rap music
and hip hop. Whenever you justare USAID or American noize. You limit

(18:26):
what rap music is doing anyway,obviously if it's been around fifty years,
Yes, the world and caught up. When somebody goes to look at basketball
and they wander and scratching their headon Luca, don't you think the same
thing happened in rap, especially whenand you know, uh, when cats
is when cats, when you're internationally, cats is spitting four or five languages.

(18:51):
Yes, rappers are linguistic boom boomboom. So I know cats man
who are super rappers. But peopleUnited States only know what they're fed,
so they're not popping through the regularmedia because the media here, when it
comes down in our culture is traditionallylazy. So if you're in front of
a cat and he's spent in threelanguages, and like you're battling or you're

(19:15):
going back and forth, and hespent three language at you, you limited
with the half English that you gothere, saying the same words over and
over. You're not winning. Ifit's a competition, if you want attention,
you're not winning unless you unless you'redoing something stupid. That's why I'm
trying to limit people that are saying, well, your performance has got to
be on stage on record for theart's sake, because off stage, if

(19:41):
you this ninety eight percent of atime, that's a whole other thing.
We know criminal cats, man,who don't wrap it. You know what
I'm saying. Those cats, Thosecats do the dirty for real and set
out to do the dirty. Sothey need a different conversation. When you
pretend to be that understand the circumstances, people are gonna go and based on

(20:03):
your leadership, on your voice.But when you're facing it, bro,
it's a sticky path. So wetry to say, listen, honest with
yourself, okay, your owner towhat you think. At least I go
by this mantra. I'm an ownerto what I think and I'm a slave
to what I say. So alot of things what I think i'd be
like, Man, I ain't saying. I'm not saying all. I want

(20:26):
to hear what you what you gottasay, O, G I want to
now you don't want to hear whatI gotta say on that one you figure
out ask me for some advice.What about some of the other hip hoppers
like KRS one. I love hisstuff. Yeah, I think I think
that if wrapped in hip hop hashad something that has has beliaguered it,

(20:52):
I think it's a destruction of thecollectives. Okay, no more team ball,
no more team game. It wasit was a beauty when you have
a team of producers and a teamof of mcs, a team of DJs,
all collaborate and even performance was panoramic. Not everybody could be the top.
Dude, you got the upfront,you know, just like when you

(21:15):
look at any band in the rockworld, everybody do ain't on the one.
At the same time, everybody gotto give each other space. The
Rector companies in the nineties, itbehooved them that they take the one person
market that get rid of the restof the collective because it may contract contracts
easier to not only negotiate, butin our case negotiate, so so you

(21:41):
gotta negotiations and it's easy to satisfyone person to shave the rest. And
this just seller as product. Butwhat it makes it makes for bad product
when you come out and have toyou know, show and present, present
it, only the cream will riseto the top. I don't think ain't
hip popping rap music per se isa one, one man and one woman's

(22:04):
game. Yeah, I think it'sa it's a it's a collective. It
like when you look at Miles Davis. You got looking at Miles Davis.
You're looking at Miles Davison. Whateverassemble he put around him so he stand
out. He's in the front.But James Brown, James Brown and the
Jabs, George Clinton in Parliament,Funkadelli, you know, Lionel Richie and

(22:27):
the Commodorees. It's like, butwhen it's down to one person, when
the quiet has kept, they stillcollab they still collect. It just doesn't
come out in the marketing presentation thatthis was a group effort, you know.
And they a lot of artists today. They collaborate any you know,

(22:49):
they collaborate each other. They collaborhim and Droves. So what we do
at Rap Station we clarify that.We said, oh, yeah, this
this record right he features Okay,this is Ace up Rock featuring doc Ice
featuring Yasim Bay you know what I'msaying, Um featuring Rod Digger, And

(23:11):
we bring out each individual and collectthem into the force that made direct produced
by We really go into the intothe credits of what a song and a
presentation is and say this is notan individual thing. If we know,
when it flows to the top,it becomes oh yeah, this person's doing
that. That person Kanye and StevieWonder and all that. But I you

(23:36):
know, I don't think that thatone person does it. Yeah, well,
speaking of one person, what whatis your relationship with Flavor, Flav
M, Terminator X and Professor GriffThose are my brothers. Yeah, my

(23:56):
brothers and being through thick and thin. Dude. You know, we played
twenty nine years in a row countries, one hundred and sixteen tours, and
it was no there's no other joylike playing together when you're in sync.
And I'm the leader of the particularsituation. But I don't look at myself

(24:21):
as being the person that always wantedto be out front. However I have
to be. You know, fortwenty nine years, I was the glue
that everybody convened. And Flavor's numbertwo, So you know, I mean
I'm at this stage state and ageand state in time at sixty two one.

(24:42):
You know, I like during theone big event and then getting back
to our home basis. But Flavor, you know, it's like he's got
to agree to that, and theneverybody else will follow. I mean,
he's like Mickeyagger, I'm Keith Richardsor vice versa. So maybe one day
he'll come around. He you know, does he have some issues with people

(25:04):
in the band? Yeah, hopefully. You know me. I don't keep
no issues because to me, it'sit's it's easy. I pick up the
mic let it go. I don'tlook at any differences. But you can't
get in the middle of differences thatpeople might have with each other, and
I leave it alone. In thepast, I would fix it. I

(25:26):
don't fix it no more. SoI told Flavor, I said, when
you feel ready, you want toget Mick Jagger, paper and out there,
and you want to wait for theright one. I'm down, down.
I like I like playing stadiums.Don't get me wrong, I like
playing stadiums. I'm just not goingto play five dates in a row and

(25:48):
do the vans too, and wakeup and wake up calls in the mornings
and stuff like that, and beit, you know, and being like
you know, cold arenas and stufflike that. I think that was a
that was a good time, verymemorable, and waking up in the bottom
of a blunk and being stopped byEast German police on your way to Berlin.
All that is memorable, and booksand documentaries before that. But I

(26:11):
think on this on out. Youknow, Minister Farrakon once said to me
in nineteen ninety five, after weplayed the Houston Astrodome the Black Family Day.
He said, listen, man,what's gonna appear to be like Fire's
gonna be ice? And what's gonnaappear to be like ice? Gonna be
like fire? Your best bet justbuilt protegees, And ever since he said

(26:32):
that, I've built rap station.I try to do things with labels.
I try, but it's all beenon my own dime and stuff like that.
So I've always been independent, whichis a blessing and the curse because
most of the people that people hearabout have a corporate partner. They have
they have incorporations, and I don'tadmonish that, but that's why, you

(26:56):
know, you need muscle and powerbehind going into the mark place trying to
make artists bigger or making it seembigger. So maybe I'll consider that the
next couple of years to find acorporate partner. But you have to have
a respect for the art and mostof all, you got to have a
respect for black people. Because alot of people say I love hip hop.
I said, well you love blackpeople, and I'll be waiting.

(27:19):
I'll be waiting for the next one. Be like, but what's that got
to do with it? Here wego, Here we go. Yeah,
if you love what comes out ofme more than yeah, it's to hell.
I mean, that's what makes theworld. That's what should make the
world go around. That's what makesculture a wonderful thing. It unites us

(27:41):
and the human spirit and our similaritiesand not aside the differences. That's also
what sports add its best does.Now, so all the differences are we
are human beings. Human being.Governments like to split divide the same thing.
They are a corporate state of mind, whether it's capitalists or even when
they say it's like half ass,you know, socialism. But they like

(28:04):
to cut up, divide, categorize, give you a race. Yeah you're
right, you're black, you're white. Yeah, you know, that's what
governments do. Governments like to putyou in boxes. But culture makes your
humanity breathe out a little bit.If you can, if you can,
if you can follow that and andsay they with sports beginning. You're supposed

(28:26):
to come in as equal. You'renot all born equal. Everybody got their
different whatever they bring to the table. But you know, at the end
of it, it's like, youknow what, I shared something with you
with winning loss and with joy andhey, and this was a game,
but it's a fact similar in agood way to how we should look at

(28:47):
life that you know, we gottalive here together. Why not enjoy the
fruits of life while we got it? Yeah? Really, Uh, tell
me about the young cats that areplaying that are out now, that are
what's going on with all of thethe guys are getting murdered. Well,

(29:14):
those are those are society issues thatseriously need a lot more than what records
or entertainment industry. Yeah, onceupon a time it could be a message
to a lot of ears that didn'thear it. But we're talking thirty years
ago, and that was like aband aid or call to help. But

(29:38):
you're talking that was nineteen eighties.That's the nineteen nineties. And the big
differences between the nineteen eighties and ninetiesand twenty twenty two, twenty three is
that you have a lot of peoplewho will here back then who are gone
today and a lot of people whohave been born since. So this is
why you have to look at waysto diffuse or destroy systemic racism, because

(30:03):
it stays around, like stinking yourclothes, you know what I'm saying.
Yeah, the stinking your clothes carriesover even if the body is gone.
So it's always a continual work inprogress. But if somebody keeps like putting
skunks in the room, but youhit on it earlier, excuse me,

(30:27):
Yeah, you hit on it earlierabout guys singing and and and and rapping
about a lifestyle that they don't knowanything about or living. And so somebody
in the streets say, well,you know you're talking about popping off.
Somebody, let me pop you off. So, because I see a lot

(30:47):
of death lately, and I'm tryingto understand it as a as a father,
as you know, and as aperson who is now transforming myself over
to the hip hop world, right, I'm trying to understand that what seemed
What goes with that, well,discrimination, hate, prejudice, bias over

(31:11):
a long period of time, disenfranchisement, lack of opportunity or lack of Really
there's not so much the lack ofopportunities, but the lack of a connection
to recognize things out of there thatthey might not be able to see,
but need that community communication to seethose things. That adds up to a
snowball and mental illness. Put someother things that came that net were unprecedented

(31:37):
in our in our lifeline, alifetime, like a pandemic. Oh yeah,
y'all stay in the house for likea year. Trust these electronics to
be your only way out. Andthe same thing that you look to the
electronics, you're gonna probably get fromthe electronics that even might make you feel
less than what you think that youare. So you're gonna live all this

(31:57):
and you're gonna dance all these thingsin your mind, and then we're gonna
let everybody go. It's like whatwe experiencing now, the level of mental
illness in this country. I've neverseen the level of mental illness in this
country the way it is right now, of course my sixty two years.

(32:20):
Because it's other factors that have comein. I think was the saving grace
for us ayers and the reason Idon't say Americans because it's audacious to say
that the only Americans are here inthe lower forty eight United States of America
mean that you totally disregard sent youAmericans, many of them are here as

(32:45):
workers, that you kind of disregard that the Caribbean, Canada, and
South America they are all Americans.In the minute that we get off saying
oh yeah, we American kids andstuff like that. I try to tell
a person in the United States andsaid, listen you when you say it,

(33:06):
disenfranchise yourself. You got this arrogancegoing on because you totally disregarded the
aspor You say stupid shit like ohthey over there overseas, like over what
seas? You know they overseas overthere? Oh, I ain't been an
Africa sol they don't care nothing aboutus, And I'm a yeah, So,
so come up with this African rhetoricof this hate that you don't even

(33:30):
know and you sound just like thetypical USAA that's a disputing and stuff against
you. And here I tell younow, I'll get them in shape.
I say, listen, first ofall, especially if I'm anywhere else except
for New York. I said,yo, you know when the New Yorker
walks in the room, right,they're like, yeah, yeah, they
full of a New York ship theywear in New York on their head,
they wear in New York. They'regoing around. I'm from New York Country,

(33:52):
ass boy, you know just thatNew York. Then I said,
you know how, you know howthat feels right because you're like, oh
yo, man, lower that NewNew York. It'shing me man, You
all here right? I said,that's the way the rest of the world
feels. When you start wearing aUnited States of America, you're a black
face because we all a black planet. The planet is already a planet of

(34:13):
color. It's not your whiteness runninganything. It's the mind that they say,
like this is pure and everybody elseis contaminated with color. It's really
the other way around. But weain't bragging about our melanin. Were just
sex saying instead of you're thinking we'rethe worst in the world. That really,
seriously, we got stay in powerwith this. We can't help it
was who we are. But whenwe give in this to this American non

(34:37):
state of mind, they call itradicalized. No, it's not radicalized.
What's going on with these shooting justbeing americanized. So a speaking of the
shooting Buffalo and a matter of factit crept up into the news. It

(34:57):
wasn't like bam, oh you knowthis is gonna anything like Yeah, the
country is suffering through mental illness becauseit's awesome. It's stuck on it's stuck
on its americanisms. That's why themental illness is festering for people of color.
I said, you got to getout of this hot box mentally that
there's people in the world have had. They've gotten through diseases, they've gotten

(35:21):
through poverty that we've never seen here. They figure out how to climb into
life as a collective even though theygot all the tools and all the toys.
Is going on, but they figureit out. If you can't figure
it out, you gotta kind Yougotta gadget who's a super computer on your
hip. Expand yourself to the restof the world. You might get a

(35:42):
quicker answer. You might even geta quicker answer from from Dan Winnipeg and
Toronto. Then you might get outof the Troy in Chicago or Evansville.
So to the point I'm saying isthat the music when it goes outside the
box a little bit, when itreaches into the past. Because the Internet
made the Internet has made or cyberspaceor what Zuckerberg says. It's the metaverse,

(36:10):
right it past president in future isthe same line. Now, it's
no, that's back in the dayand that's the future. And we live
in now. People live in thepast president future at the same time,
and it's on the screen. Youknow, people call today, whether they're
young or old, the's screen ages. Well, speaking of mental health,

(36:35):
you know, I came out yearsago with my issues with substitue abuse.
But what helped me to get throughthat whole process is that I got acquainted
with the psychologist and I was ableto deal with my mental health and mental
issues now for like for all ofthese years. And I was just talking

(37:00):
with my young daughter, Shakira,who is a doctor, who is a
She has her own private practice andshe works with the NBA Players Association on
mental health. She's a psychologist.Unbelievable that we have not touched upon that

(37:21):
as black people and as all people. You know, other people who go
seek help, but we as blackpeople, we don't seem to latch onto
that. We latch onto all theother bad influences, but we never look
at pointment. You know, letme check my mental health you know,
because I want to make sure thatI got my wellness and check because mental

(37:43):
wellness is the wellness that you need. You know, you speak on that
in terms of like hip hop.I mean, because I've seen guys who
I think should get some help,but I don't know. All I know
is that you're a wonderful example oncom perseverance and the fact that you're here

(38:07):
and you have such a storied everythingbehind you and you persevere to be stronger
than anything and many of us nowis a testament to mentor in physical wellness.
I mean you, I mean whenpeople look at your story and here

(38:30):
all the great things that you're doingnow, and then the fight for so
many others who have struggled and fightfor them too, that should be revered
and honor and and and that's wherea lot of our attention and focus should
be. But those that have perseveredand able to point to people who are

(38:51):
professional in areas say go this personright there. They know, listen,
don't don't get into this. Youyou mentally you think that you could challenge
it doctor, Which is the craziestshit I've ever heard, Like, like
the other day, like somebody goton online you can't go to online.
You can't go online on social mediaand come out of there thinking that you

(39:12):
can pull something from it. Umfrom looking at a debate with a person
that hasn't known anything, it hasn'texperienced anything, chatting against a person who's
not only experienced but well endowed inthat subject, Like arguing online with Kevin
Durant's stupid when we talk about basketballthat's about it's dumb. And saying I'm

(39:36):
gonna argue with a with a witha with a world surgeon about cutting on
people about people, it's the samething. It's like, oh yeah,
I don't think the VACS is doingthis and all that. You know,
you cannot freestyle knowledge. This painin knowledge because you got to take the
time the process. People that saythey read books, I said, you

(39:59):
read in the book or you oryou thumbing through a book. It's one
thing to thumb through the book,get the captions, get you know,
underline some stuff. When you reada book and digest it and then process
it in the doing of being something, It's like eating fish where you know
you eat you eat the fish,where you toss the bones away because you

(40:21):
don't know what to do with thebones anyway, some people write, I
know what to do with the bones, but you don't. So you got
to go and when you got toread, the most important thing about reading
is comprehension. And I'm telling youthere's some books out there that I have
to I would have to read eighttimes before I get it. So you
got to go to a person's ableto say, oh, yeah, this

(40:42):
is what that book is saying,Yeah, I'm good at that, and
I say, well, I ain'tgood at that. I thought I read
that book. I thought we readthe same book. Say yeah, we
read the same book, but Icomprehended it and you didn't. So when
we get to these online or offlineconversations with people who have PhDs and that
subject without of course official PhDs,like, man, don't get in an

(41:07):
argument with that street cat. Thatcat got a PhD and thuggery. Don't
get in the middle of that man. That cat does that matter of fact,
he might not be looking at hislifeline like you look at your lifeline.
He bobably say you know what I'mI'm doing a one and done.
Man. I'm gonna be like,but this is what I do. Don't

(41:28):
get in the middle of that mix, that cat knows what they're doing and
that thing. But you know,online, I guess you could put an
avatar and you can act like youanybody and anything. Yeah, And so
what I'm saying a long story short, the gun fair. But you know,
it's a different thing when somebody getsin a fight back in the day

(41:51):
and they end up being in nineteensixty one, Like, you know,
I thought that dude, man,I knocked him out. I got knocked
on my ass. But we're goodtoday, you know what I'm saying.
Good people and the guns and thedrugs were poured in the black communities in
the late seventies, in the midseventies in New York and LA specifically,
the gamers knew how they was goingto game the community. The gamers knew

(42:16):
that the powers that be knew howthey was gonna game it. We're gonna
come in there nice and we're gonnaend heavy, and we're gonna wipe out
the eighties and then some people gonnacome through it, but most ain't is
poured in So these things did comefrom us. They like, we're gonna
pour guns and we're gonna pour drugsin there, and just split them all

(42:37):
apart. We haven't rebounded as apeople from that. You know, you
had to doctor King symbolic murder insixty eight, and then you had the
wiping us out during R and Band R and B is Reagan and Bush
and that whole period wiped us outto the point that new seeds had to

(42:59):
grow. But they grew separate.They grew separately and individually. You only
can go up with so much.These are not our faults. They were
bestowed upon us. Man. Theyseparated the news or the great old gs
and and and the young people.So where the young people keep looking at
young people for leadership. That's thecraziest shit ever. Hey, you know,

(43:22):
you know in other countries, getthe old g sys then they're eighty
five years old and everybody okay,okay, then we're gonna see what we
could do with this. So thedaspecause saved us when we pay attention to
it. Yeah. I was justsent this information by Terrell Harris. Uh
Tobias Harris's father. Oh yeah,yeah he was. He was looking at

(43:46):
the top twenty NBA players that areunder the Spencer Hayward rule, and the
league is not going to and theNBA and the Players Association seem like they
just do not want to put myname on my ruling. They will put
anything else on day first, theycall it the hardship. Then they call

(44:09):
it what's the next one? Well, anyway, all the way up to
one and don and they never sayit's the Spenser Hayward rule. So he
was showing me the salaries. Allright, here we go with the top
twenty salaries. Steph Curry. It'smaking forty five million, forty eect basically

(44:30):
forty six million a year. Johnwall Is knocking out forty five million a
year, Broke is forty forty fourmillion a year, and all on and
on, no idea who I amand what I did in terms of fighting

(44:51):
this case all the way to theSupreme Court so they could come in early
and make this kind of money.Deep man, I I you know,
I think it's fear of too muchinformation for the ticket holder. And I
don't think you know, I thinkas radical as Adam Silver started. Yeah,

(45:14):
eventually, the powers that be it'sstill the old Boys network and they're
gonna corral you and to be areally conservative conservative because it has something to
do with the wealth of the audiencepaying their high ticket prices and not being

(45:35):
bothered with all that. Listen,we're trying to go forward. We're trying
to go into twenty twenty five.Man, we can't be talking about sixty
eight. But if they don't don'tsell no jerseys, then don't dons,
don't do no tributes and all that. Man, just go forward, you
know. And this is why Ithought that they try to throw game at
at ice Cubes Big Three because iceQue took players that were already marketed by

(46:04):
the NBA that the NBA said,well, we can't do not with them.
We ain't gonna hide them, butyou know, they could be a
coach in the G League for forfor this much whatever. And Q and
his business partner said, we're gonnatake these names have been spent on and
marketed and that's in the NBA willcontinue to do that. So I just

(46:24):
think that they they they getting aquagmire saying we got to watch what we
how we brand things because it couldspin away from us. And we need
that. We need to control thenarrative um and and the narrative in the
narrative in the NBA. As faras a fan point of view from the

(46:50):
outside looking in. Was tried toreduce as much footage of any NBA before
nineteen ninety exactly. You know,I say, it's like before we see
it. That's why I posted onmy Twitter and you was playing with the
Washington Bullets. That incredible when theywere all all announcements, you be Brown,

(47:13):
I'm still announcing today, you know, yes, exactly. And Brent
Musburg all these guys is like SpencerHaywood with the Washington Bullets. We thought
it was over and done and heis taking it to the Celtics and lave
Burg and I posted and showed youknow you doing the quote unquote euro step

(47:37):
right because because I had just cameback from playing in Venice because of the
Lakers, and they are doing thisseries right now, winning time. But
what happened was the players and theowners and the NBA executives said, you
can't stay in America. We wantto send you to Venice, Italy.

(48:00):
And I played there for that yearand I came back to the Washington Wizards.
So I'm doing a eural step andeverybody's trying to figure out what the
heck is he doing. And thereferee couldn't call it because they were like,
it was so good, it looksso beautiful, we can't call this.
And so the young players were lookingat my footage that that you posted

(48:24):
and that I had posted that wasmy last year in basketball. They were
like, whoa, this guy couldplay in our era. I was like,
yeah, I was way ahead ofthe game. Yeah, because I
was nineteen when I when I cameinto the league, it was the MVP.
But it's just the game caught up. Yeah, you got one of

(48:45):
those Forest Gump stories. I gota Forrest Gump story. Got a Forrest
Gump story. Yeah, look perishingyour co coach arm at Detroit, the
high school coach, one of thegreatest one, Will Robinson, the first
Black to coach in NC two ADivision one history junior college. Yeahlympics with

(49:07):
with with um, you know JohnCarlins and Thomas Thomas Smith. Yeah,
ABABA. When the ABA was shuttingdown, they were saying, we need
somebody, we need a gimmick toattract the players, and they signed this
nineteen year old out of college andall of a sudden, Julius Irvin,

(49:27):
George Gervin, Moses Malone, GeorgeMcGinnis, which was this bad dude favorite.
And they don't talk about Ginnis enough. Man, they don't talk about
the big George. But we talkedabout guys amen, Charles McGinnis. Yeah,
George McGinnis, my gosh, yeah, yo, man, that those

(49:49):
all you guys. Man. It'slike listen, man, people like talking
today like, oh man, youjust a fan boy. You damn right,
I'm a fan boy. It's helped. And let me tell you,
I'm a time from to me thegreatest father in the world, my dad.
It was just unbelievable, right,you and him share the same birthday,
by the way, twenty second butyeah, man, but he said,

(50:14):
you know what it's it's it's admirablethat you look at especially other black
men are trying to make it,and you know you always give that saluting
props and that that's good. AndI'm your dad, and I know I'm
I know, I'm at the topof the pots a yeah, everybody else's
way diallas for a second and third, but you give props what props due,

(50:35):
and and of course our mothers andour sisters and wives and all that
and daughters. But he was thefirst and same man whenever you see a
black man, a black father outthere, you give them some props,
man, because men don't get enoughfor that. And as hard as hell,
and and and and a little bitfrom areas they leaf Slee suspect Will

(50:55):
Will Will Will be good Calma.So but yeah, with in Time my
favorite show. And you know what, I don't you know, I look
at any movie or any biopic ina different way. Man. I ain't
taking none of it all home,or I believe all this. I'm a
reader of the people, you know. So to me, it was it

(51:16):
locked in as entertainment on some thingsthat I kind of read about, knew,
and it was entertaining to me.And it showed character. It showed
a lot of different things. AndI don't get into the whole thing of
I understand why somebody said, oh, man, that ain't me, But

(51:37):
that's that's movies, man, that'sHollywood movie. I didn't it about me.
I'd be like, you know what, that ain't me, but cool.
I didn't say that ain't me.I said it is, man.
It was me four to two yearsago. And look where I am today,
you know, stronger than ever,stronger than ever, you know,
going back to one other thing.We were talking abou George McGinnis, Julius

(52:00):
Irving and Iceman and all of thoseguys from the ABA who transformed and went
into the NBA and changed the gamethere as well. But uh, what
ice Cube has done with the withthe Big Three, he has brought all
of those guys, those Hall offamers as backass coaches. Yes, and

(52:21):
I think he made doctor and theDoctor is out basketball hero because I'm from
the same hometown Roosevelt long Alland whenhe made Doctor Jay like the Commissioner,
I mean, you know, andyou know Ice Cube his name and Doctor
Dre they named off of Doctor Jand Ice Gerber. You know that.

(52:43):
Yeah, that's where they got theirnicknames. They because, I mean,
because we had to look at atblack athletes as you know, as our
role models to at least name ourselves. So yeah, Doctor Gray, Doctor
J and you know ice Cube offGeorge Gervin. I told that to uh
uh mister Gervin and the es andstarts smiling like, oh man, you

(53:07):
know, oh man another Detroit Yeah, yep, yeah, yeah, he
man, wow, yeah. Butyou your brothers man were our energy man,
like like the seventies was kind ofyou know, was a battleground period
for for for being able to seeyou know, damn okay, that's a

(53:29):
black person on TV. And Itell you all the time, especially these
you two kids New Gen's. Isaid, if you want to know how
the United States of America was,watch a sporting event from nineteen ninety on
back. Yes, and you ain'tseeing no black people advertising nothing nothing.

(53:49):
I mean it said oj was flyingthrough airports and I mean Bill Cosby OJM.
And you know what what society,society did to them too, So
the blood, oh my gosh,yeah, you know what I'm saying.
So, you know, a lotof times when I see a lot of
things out there. I know,I write songs, I know I do

(54:12):
artwork, but I'm an owner towhat I think and saying to what I
say, and some things I'll betelling to say, you don't want to
hear me tell you what I think. So let's try to figure out how
we could go forward with this thing, make a great path and try to
do the coon by y'all humanity,Because if I start telling you what I
think, you better get some shields. Hey, I drive. I tell

(54:38):
people we can always do business,but but I ain't gonna be doing I
ain't gonna be hop hop scotching,reaching up for the lowest hanging fruit or
whatever. I'm cool with my twothousand and eight um Acura until they tell
you you can't drive it no morebecause it's a fossil fuel bird field problem.

(55:00):
Charged gass gas gonna be eleven dollarsa gallon, So now I can't
keep my car for thirty years.I wear sneakers from thirty years ago because
I just washed them and they rushedthem put them back on. You could
just hold your excuse me? Whatwas your brand? Which one did you

(55:21):
like most? Rundy m C saidmy Adidas, And when my Adidas made
a limited sneaker deal with with run, I was like, so I wear
anything, okay. And the thingabout it, it's like I always thought
when rapped in the eighty eighties andnineties, they should have made sneaker deals
for some rappers because Rundy Run DMCso more Adidas than anybody on the dead,

(55:45):
more than any player, and theydidn't make them know. They didn't
make Run DMC no sneaker deal thatwas worth anything. They're getting the money.
That's why when Nike had Michael Jordan'sthe guy that made Michael Jordan work,
not not court wise, because yeah, yeah, I mean Michael Jordan

(56:05):
incredible basketball player, but we alwayshad incredible basketball players, we always But
what made Michael Jordan hip and kickover other than the game exactly Mike Lee.
So hip hop. Spike Lee tookhip hop and attached it to Michael
Jordan. Not e did Strike Leetake hip hop? Spike Lee attached Brooklyn

(56:27):
hip hop to Michael Jordan. PutBrooklyn on Michael Jordan in nineteen eighty six
is bananas. That's what happened.That's why ed Jordan the king something because
the hipness of hip hop inadvertently toa dude that was public is saying,
I don't really follow this hip hopshit. Yeah but Mike, not for

(56:52):
you by Spike Dog for real Andjust like you know, Spike, Spike,
if it wasn't for fight the powerand do the right thing, well
but kidding me, we yeah,we big, but putting out stuff with
a movie, right, with amovie, man fight the power, fight
the power, fight the power anddo the right thing eight hundred times.

(57:14):
So when people talk about fight thepowers that I was not we would not
alone. We salute Spike Lee fromhelp making that happen. Same thing with
Nike and Ed Jordan and that becomingan empire. It's because Spike Lee made
it happened Nike. Look, Nikeexisted before Michael and yeah, I was

(57:34):
the first player to wear the shootfor Nike and uh I had the deal
that and when a time they talkedabout what magic had that deal, But
it was my deal that that startedthat whole Nike UH run with players.
I was the first player to signwith Nike and I had a pretty good
deal, but my agent couldn't figureout how to get his ten percent out

(57:59):
of the deal. So he hada power. He had the power of
attorney letter. So he sold mystock and you know what the stock would
be like today? Game man,So what do you so? Obviously this
was the nineteen seventy three what's thiswhat I'm saying? Obviously you feel good

(58:22):
about the evolution of game the money, the business. Um, same thing
with me. If I still atlook at I look at rappers that you
know in the beginning, we're playingold arenas, going traveling in vans,
ended up in the Mourne and gottaget up to go from the Morine Catt

(58:43):
his commercial flight, switching through Houstonto get the Austin and stuff like that,
to catch the seven o'clock show,and stuff like that. Same thing
with the NBA at that time,way back, commercial jets and stuff like
that, the folding the seat,right, you know, but go ahead,
But you know, so I getit, the evolution of things.

(59:07):
When a cat just makes a mixtapeor might not make an album at all,
but they're catching a private jet toa special function and they might give
a half ass show because they mightbe like kind of nodding out and shit
like that. Right, I getthat, and and and then and then
the cost of what I mean,the price of the gig. They're probably

(59:28):
taken home like you know, midsix figures or whatever. I get that.
That's evolution. And I'm happy tobe part of the pioneering revolution.
Really not the pioneering, but thatsect, that little next phase when you're
ramping up. I'm part of thatwhole thing. I get it. But
when they when they try to devalue, not so much mean when they when

(59:54):
you devalue, my peers, you'retaking the road away. That's why myself
and Curtis Blow and others. Andthis is for the power of the energy
of Curtis Blow who who recently hada heart transplant. Oh my gosh.
We helped create the Hip Hop Alliance, which is hip hop's first union.

(01:00:15):
Yes, and it ties together withSAG after of being the first union of
hip hop workers, artists, personneland stuff like that, where we work
very diligently and the results of itwill only become from the totality of all
of the voices that demand that inthis industry over the last forty nine years

(01:00:40):
of unofficially that grown things have tohappen. This ain't an adolescent music and
we know that the business of hiphop and rap music is the business that
wants to consider Like, okay,y'all ain't getting under this money. But
when you speak under behalf of anartist that might have health issues, their

(01:01:06):
family doesn't know exactly anything about theircontracts or what's due to them. They
need clarification. You have to tellthe seeds because the same the same personnel,
it's somewhere in the middle of themixed way in the back, the
same guys that was there or theirfamily was dead forty years ago, somewhere
there in the mix right now underanother job description or ownership description. That's

(01:01:34):
that's why we talk about owners inthe NFL and the NBA. They're the
same guys. They pissed in thesame urinals, so they have to be
a bit just like politicians. Onetime I went to and it testified in
DC, and they had this sideversus that side. We was testifying for

(01:01:55):
MP three technology versus the R,I, A A, the major record
labels. And I was talking toa man just recently deceased R and hatched
and he was one of the senator, Yes, sir, and you know
it was going on in the roomand all. But they had a journe

(01:02:15):
for a break in the same dudethat they were arguing and pissing at the
same store. That's the same storetalking about like, yeah, well,
how's Mary doing well? You knowshe's all writing, you know, and
Chad is going to school right now, but he's got to bring his grades
up. We had a barbecue lastweek. I'll catch you. And then
they go back out in the inthe rock and Democratic Republicans is going at

(01:02:39):
each other and we in the middle. It was like, so I'm like
you all, everybody all in thesame bowler, supman, all that.
So you got to stand by yourstance and just say listen, you know
this is the point of view.This needs help here, and we're gonna
knock on all heads and all doorsto make some of these changes. The
problem is is that you got toeliminate the out by building a collective so

(01:03:01):
where you just contribute a little bit, but it doesn't burn you and your
personal time out right. Speaking ofCurtis Blow, remember basketball, of course
made it. He made it foryou guys, I know he did.
Curtis Blow. My god, it'sbeautiful. I wished him luck with this

(01:03:22):
hard transplant because we had one ofour famous Hall of famers who recently had
a hard transplant, made Archer Ballyour home. Yes really yeah, this
is his second year, I think, but this transplant, oh man.
And before he had his transplant,he was on a wait list because we

(01:03:43):
didn't have health insurance the retired players. We didn't have the health insurance that
could help him get that transplant inEarl Munroe and some of the other guys
who needed hip transplants and stuff likethat. So at that time I was
the chairman of the board for theNBA Retired Players. I went to Lebron

(01:04:03):
and Steph Curry and Chris Paul andthose guys and said, man, is
it any way possible we can helpus out have a minor role in terms
of the health insurance you guys have. Uh, can we just have a
little bit of what you have?And they went into the room and stayed

(01:04:24):
in for fifteen minutes and came outsaid, no, you can't have a
minor We're gonna have. You're gonnahave the same health insurance that we have.
And they dropped sixteen million a yearfor all of us to have this
health insurance so we are able totake care of our players and our families.
It's just an awesome thing. Butthey never talk about those those things

(01:04:46):
that they have done for the retiredplayers. They just day because you know,
it's all about the marketing. Yeah, you got you got guys like
Chris Paul, especially Lebron and thosetwo together the day different cats. Man,
they like they cut out of theseventies and and yes, exactly exactly.

(01:05:06):
And I say that the agents andthe managers, and even I would
say the commissioner. They get shakyon, you know, not not to
say they they're like I'm looking fromthe outside there, not to say that
they opposed to it, but they'rebetween it. They're between the United States

(01:05:28):
of American audience of suppliers. Withinthat demographic, there's animosities, and the
animosities come like, look at thisnegro. This negro ain't even on my
team. That some of the animositiesout there, they'd be. They're ball
fans and NBA fans that maybe througha lalla and some of these animosities are

(01:05:51):
passed down and when they see somethingon TV and they misconstrue it as arrogance,
which could be also sometimes it's easyor you kinda have arrogance to play
and rap music and hip hop.I kind of see the arrogance. I
kind of see somebody that looks ata video all their young life, their

(01:06:14):
father got laid off for the jobin Ohio, and they having a rough
time, come up and they seesomebody with a block of money throwing it
at a camera in a video andthey keep watching the video over and over
again. And then after a while, you know, who knows their girlfriend
that's going with the black guy andall that who knows how these these these

(01:06:34):
little animals built up without explanation thatyou know, I mean, you ain't
no different yet that this is whathappened this person they got the issues too.
So without this communication, they justthink that these people and they start
counting their money and then be likesaying, well, I'm mad at that?

(01:06:56):
Are you mad at? That's thatprofession man. So yeah, that's
one of the one of the thingsthat I think will happen in rap music
and hip hop because the contributors overthe last fifty years, there's a serious
set of issues. I recently sawto how Doctor Jay has tried to do
that for eight from a ABA playerstoo. You know, yeah, well

(01:07:18):
that is one of the processes thatwe need to get the health insurance for
the ABA guys because of the factthat these guys don't have a pension,
they don't have anything. They justwipe them out off the map for all
the contributions they did for the forbasketball and so we were looking at a

(01:07:41):
number of like I think it's aboutone point four million per year. If
we can get these guys health insuranceand a pension, a little small pension,
and god, I see players likedropping that kind of money at a
strip club where the yeah things.My thing is like this. It's like

(01:08:04):
when the real situation comes up andyou can't do nothing about or nobody wants
to do anything about it, thenI don't want to hear. I don't
want to read the sports pages rightand read about somebody's six sixty eight million
dollars per year contract. Me.I want to read did my team win?

(01:08:25):
What are we doing? Players haveas a coach? You know,
I don't. I don't. Idon't want to read money. I ain't
making let that let them have anymoney. But I think that the sports
writers had so much animosity, evenlike back in your day. I think
the sports writers had so much animosityor the money that you report to make.

(01:08:45):
They just kept saying more than Spencer, Hey, what's points rebounds?
What he means his team is spirit? Well, he talk about his money,
money America. I want to talkabout these players money. What does
what does somebody else's money got todo with the damn game? Now?
I know people get into like,well now people are like, oh,

(01:09:05):
well, I don't know if they'regoing over the cap in the luxury tax
and all all that for real.I mean, I mean nothing to me.
Man, that's state money. Theyhave money, state money, and
I fought hard for them to getthat money. I went all the way
to the Supreme Court. So thatmoney. The only money that's important to

(01:09:31):
me is the money I spend onwatching the game. Jersey Support subscriptions.
You know what I'm saying, Yes, somebody else's money. When they keep
putting it out there, I'm tellingyou, when you see a black man,
when they keep talking about the money, it builds animosity in the United

(01:09:51):
States of America. Wow, itbuilds animosity the nervous negro making this money
when I working on life. Youdon't say that about that doctor that's saving
your life. You don't kill money. You know, I played golf with
them. Excuse me, I said, I played golf with them, and

(01:10:13):
they're telling me how much of moneythey are making on surgeries and all of
you know, like their particular expertiseas a medical expert. Yeah, So
that that's to me, that allthat plays in into the United States of
America, the mental illness, thebuilding an animosity is a lack of proper

(01:10:35):
communication, the lack of perspective,the lack of saying well, this person
is a great person. Oh yeah, but I heard that they that they
at their money up and they hada drug problem, or they had you
know, they had a mistake thatyou know, they hit something on the
road and the person accidentally got It'slike, so that's the narrative of the

(01:10:56):
whole story. So you would takeall the good story, tossed him to
the side, and give me thisone thing because you can roll and sell
it. Yeah. Well no.I was recently at a concert with baby
Face and I just watching them perform. So I had people coming up to
me with they had their beer andthey had the alcohol, and they were

(01:11:17):
looking at me and saying, youknow, are you all right? Son?
Are you all right? And Iwas like, what are you talking
about? Am I all right?They're looking at me and he says,
well, you know, I justwatched you. You're you're seeing and when
a time I said, this wasforty two years ago. It's so weird.

(01:11:41):
I was sitting there. I'm like, whoa, wait a minute,
Harris, and you're drunk and you'retelling me, am I all right?
I was like, whoa, ButI understand I didn't. I didn't.
I didn't I didn't not go off, Big got the Wooden Harris. We
have the wood See Harris, Mandidn't I mean did it? Man?

(01:12:04):
That guy is probably going to winsome awards. He was like he was
Spencer. Yeah, you know what, I know, Adam Silver was shaken.
But we definitely can't call it theSpencer Haywood rule. Now, the

(01:12:25):
hardest thing in any structure is namedsomething after black person. It's hardest.
Now I have the only Supreme Courtrule that is not named after me.
Row versus Wade, Brown versus theBoard of Education. You go through all
of the rules, but when itgets to Haywood versus the NBA, don't

(01:12:47):
say anything about it now. Now, now, I'm gonna tell you another
thing that that that I've known inmy years, that that the United Remember,
I ain't gonna say Americans. Thehardest thing for you as as to
get by, and this is crossgenerational and hopefully we get to that plateau.

(01:13:08):
It's very difficult for a US airto sit and get instruction and learn
from a black voice and black persondirectly without no middle person between. This
seems to just be this oil andwater thing going on where sometimes you know,
I'll go to somebody said, we'rethe last time friends of mine,

(01:13:29):
We're the last time you set yourass down and just listen to a black
person teach you something to get theinternet? What book you read? Since
you ask? Because I mean,yeah, I'll tell my mom and father
right right, my mind souls socalled smart ass self right had a nerd
to be trying to talk to mymom. I'm like, well, I
heard that in nineteen forty eight,harm too hallom, that this happened and

(01:13:56):
all that, And then they lookat you like, yeah, some of
that is true, but this iswhat happened, and this is the truth
on that, not the person Iread, who was that one person that
rode the bing stuff? No,this is what happened. We got that
as in every trick in trade inthe United States of America going forward into

(01:14:18):
the third decade or the twenty firstcentury, it's very, very important that
we stay at the steering wheel orthe narrative, you know, like Isaiah
Thomas always says, we got tobe at the steering wheel because when the
transitioning of elders happened, that storygone, man, God, and it

(01:14:39):
trusts the digital aids. You knowwhy, because the digital age. It
would be like three card money inNew York. Man, It's like,
now you see it. Now youtrying to find it. Now you went
under the clam. There it is, baby, And meanwhile you up there
looking at you, all naive lookingat and somebody pickpocket in you and then
you like that one and they pickup the clam and ain't nothing underneath it,
right and everybody, Yo, thatis digital information, three card money

(01:15:08):
on it. Okay, yeah,yeah, you're watching this or you're reading
the headline of social media's gonna teachyou about yourself boom under the clam.
No you don't see it. Iwas there a second ago. I just
read it. Something took it down. Yeah, so hey, limb,
let's wrap it up. But let'stalk a little bit about basketball. Yeah,

(01:15:29):
I talk a little bit that Iknow. Okay, you know a
lot about basketball. I see youon TNT, but that's that's inadvertently as
a fan. Do you know meas a person. Every time I used
to see somebody not from the gametalk about the game on TV, I'll
be like, get you off thegame? Do you think playing no ball?
What are you talking for? Everytime they asked me a sports question,

(01:15:53):
I'm like, I don't need tobe I'm just in the fans seat.
I don't need to be talking.There's so many people in this game
that need to be talking. Wehave but Chuck, you know, and
all that you pay a manage andall that. I just like to be
a contributor to the fan. Butwhen I'm asked, and I'm asked such
my honorable people I've been a fanof, then I do my best to

(01:16:14):
give an answer that won't just soundso fanatical. Okay, So with the
upcoming playoffs, you have the Celticsand the Heat. Break it down in
your opinion, what's going to happenin that series? And let's just take
the first game and see what willhappen. I know you might you know

(01:16:36):
the Celtics, you know we nix. You know how that is we have.
I don't like twenty nine teams.I don't like none of them people,
But I picked Surrogan. As aNick fan, you learn to pick,
you know, surrogant teams, right, and then you have and then
you feel for the players, andthen you feel for the betterment of people

(01:16:59):
who have contributed game and people whoare coming into the game, and you
want the integrity of the game tobe upheld. Um I like he made
Odoka yo man that that brother turnedit. We gotta give salute to knee
Along because whatever him you know Nialong and is his wife his lady.

(01:17:27):
If that's helped, I think,you know, let's drama. You got
there, and that's probably helped himand helped the court up the team and
then they realize that backs up againstthe wall and that team got together.
Man got together, and they gottogether. You know what, let's pull
in, you know what, pullin some familiar heads, bring Al Horford
back. Have Maybe Al Horford isin the conversation and looking at Tatum and

(01:17:51):
Brown as like, look, cats, you guys are the leaders. Marcus
smart, that energy, those fourdudes, and you got Billiams, Now,
yeah they got Williams and and theand the guys has contributed. But
those four dudes and then you stillgot like Brad Stevens in the back as
the GM. Yes, we probablynot you know, doing the heavy lifting.

(01:18:15):
I think the familiarity is one ofthese things where the NBA has moved
people around so much that where doyou find a familiar core of four to
five people that say we were herebefore and close. Now we regrouped and
we kind of we're gonna, we'regonna, we're gonna snatch this thing.

(01:18:36):
We you know, I think thatfourth court. And then then then you
got the life of Riley and Igo back to the old days. But
you know, the life of Rileyand but the Knicks, to me,
I always thought, you know,other than while growing up with Reddy Holstman,

(01:18:58):
I thought, pat Riley, it'sthe greatest thing that ever happened in
the New York Knicks as far asa coaching. You know, in the
modern era, a lot of NewYork Knicks hated that. By said,
you hated it because you loved himso much. When he was here,
they gave a thousand percent. Everysingle one of them Nick ball players was
cut. Now I'm just saying,I don't know if that makes it a

(01:19:19):
ballotball player or not. But wheneveryou see a ball player on the court
and they ain't cut and they anathlete at twenty two, I'm like,
and pat Riley ain't allowing nobody toget on that Miami Heat uniform uncut and
out of the sheet. So whenyou look at a guy like Jimmy Butler.

(01:19:40):
They just looked like they got morestamina. They just like they like,
they like, they look like theycould do the thirteenth, fourteenth or
fifteenth round of boxing. They don'teven do that in boxing no more.
I don't know why, but youknow UNC back in the day, a
short tangent for a second when youwatch the heavyweight fight and you know round
thirteen fourteen fifteen was coming up,that's what made super champions. Like,

(01:20:03):
that's why Muhammad Ali you could neversleep on them. I don't even know
if you have Muhammad Ali and ErnieShavers when you got that fight, but
that was a great one. SoI'm saying in analogy that thirteen fourteen fifteenth
round is like NBA playoffs when itgets down to the last bit and Spostra

(01:20:27):
and pat Riley's thing. And I'mnot even talking about the players. I'm
saying the players on top of this. Who sang the song it came up
hard? That was Marvin Gay,Yeah right, yeah, Well, I

(01:20:48):
mean he could play two more yearsafter this game in a row, and
in a row like like he couldkeep on playing because they looked like not
only are they hungry, but theregiment is just different from any other NBA
team. And I think they camein prepared for this eighty two game season,

(01:21:09):
where I think a lot of peopleforgot that this eighty two is gonna
seem very difficult. They're gonna seemlong as hell. And you know,
you know, y'all had to playlike fifteen twenty years of eighty two game
seasons in a row, and thedn'tbelieve in days off, days off,

(01:21:33):
no rest. But that Jimmy Butler, you know, he came up through
Tyler or the Tyler Junior College inTexas and then home to Marquette, and
he had to fight his way through. He's tough. He is a tough
player. And so is that Bamout of bio. I mean, they

(01:21:53):
look like Kyle lariy, Kyle KyleLari. Every time I look at Jimmy
Butler looked like he got a pieceof meat in his mouth and you good
luck with trying to snatch it outof his mouth, his mouth. And
then and then in the West,Um, you know, I was a
big fan of rooting for Chris Paulto get it, you know I was,

(01:22:17):
But you know, I mean,you know, to me as a
fan, whenever things come down toa game seven and then all professionals,
anything can happen, and I'm notand I think as fans and it's important,
um um as fans, I thinkpeople get carried away with trying to

(01:22:39):
judge players, and I just thinkthese professional athletes are so far at the
top of their field that I thinkthat a lot of them. Everybody has
a same unbelievable talent. So sometimesit's if you know, you come down
to one game, anything can happen, and anybody could could kick your ass.

(01:23:00):
Everybody. There ain't no players thatsuck. I don't believe. In
fact, they ain't no player that'ssucking. The G League. I think
the G League. Now hear mytheory on this, I think the G
League is a better investment for ateam than the NCAA's right now. Oh,
it is a much better investment becauseyou get a chance to work that
product, get that product ready.And I'm not saying as a product,

(01:23:21):
as as a player, but ahuman, but that product is prepared.
And you can also take a playerthat is having a struggle in the NBA
and say why don't I take youdown to the G League for a while.
And let you get your sea legsback and come come back up.
Oh, it's a it's a seriousinvestment because I think, all right,

(01:23:44):
the draft is happening today. Sonow you got to look at eighteen to
twenty one year old young players,and I'm like saying, they who only
played against young players an aau Balla couple of years ago, versus somebody
who's twenty five. They already mighthave been like a top draft pick but

(01:24:09):
didn't stick on a team. Howis that player over at twenty five?
I don't get it. I mean, how is that player over and done
at twenty five? And you're gonnawe don't have Look, I tell people
all time, then ain't a SpencerHaywood in the draft coming out. They
ain't a Lebron James coming out,a new out sender Karee Map, dude

(01:24:30):
Jabal coming out, So meaning thateverybody's got this level of talent. But
I don't I don't understand is thething. I don't understand. I don't
understand how a player can't get betterfrom twenty one to twenty five. But
you think that player from nineteen totwenty one is all that you can that

(01:24:51):
you can bet On. I don'tget that. I don't get that.
In music, of course, peoplethink it's like, oh yeah, the
new artist is always gonna better,and I'm not fucking oh no, even
I think that artist is gonna ain'tgonna find himself today thirty five. Right
then they ain't gonna be part ofpopular music. They ain't gonna make you

(01:25:11):
know, you know, you knowpeople. I mean, that's a different
thing. Man, musician, youget better. But art and commerce are
two different things. So I talkedto artists. I don't talk commerce basketball
and athletics. I don't get thisthing where twenty seven year old is considered

(01:25:32):
too old, too old, Idon't get that. I don't get that.
Man could be the salary, thesalary caps, and the way that
they look at a young player comingin. You you have a rookie uh
salary as opposed to a guy that'stwenty five, twenty six. He has

(01:25:54):
a guaranteed amount. So the businessof basketball just say, well, he's
over and done. Let me bringup the young guy because I'm paying him
like a third or a lot less. Yeah, I get that. From
a structured thing, as a fanthing, yeah, you know that is

(01:26:16):
this is probably why you know.I haven't seen my team win and you
ain't got nothing to do with it. But I haven't seen my team win
a championship since I was not onceI was thirteen and now I'm sixty two.
So but I still love my teamand I love everybody contribute to the
team. Here's a question I alwayswanted to ask you. I was happy

(01:26:43):
when Spencer Haywood was a New YorkNick, and I thought we could have
built around that. But I thinkthat we the Knicks overdid it where I'm
a big Bob McAdoo fan, butbig fan like you over there and be
over there because we want to competeagainst that. As a fan, I
just think they loaded too much,and I saw the Knicks make the same
mistake thirty years later. I makethe same comparison. We were good with

(01:27:06):
the Maori Start of Mine, andthen we got Carmelo, So now you
got two stars. Where we weregood with Stout of Mind. We were
good with Spencer Haywood. Yeah,mat you was a king but yet cool.
But we're good with Hey. We'llgab two gab two sons. At
the same time time, we weregood with Start of Mind and then we

(01:27:29):
got Carmelo. No, no,Carmelo. But to me, Carmelo is
a Hall of Famer, just likeyou know macadoo. But I just thought
that, you know, and thenand then we had fun look at I
used to be a fan on theoutside to keep Buffalo in the conversation.
I thought that broke up the wholefranchise in Buffalo. The league did a
disjustice to a bad one because wehad like three We had Lonnie Shelton,

(01:27:57):
myself, and Bob McAdoo. We'reall playing the same position. So that
was kind of weird. But okay, let's go back to your pick with
the West Dallas or the Warriors Phoenix. It'd be interested in the way to

(01:28:25):
me, and to me, Imean, I was only winning for Phoenix
because of my man Eddie Johnson.You wanted to see him get a chip,
you know, Eddie Johnson and JustinTermany announced all NBA serious radio,
and so yeah, I was rootingfor for Damn Um and also Chris Paul.
But I got no sympathy for theWarriors. They got they they full

(01:28:50):
belly fool, they belly fool,but they're hungry. They're hungry, and
Dallas as much as I'm as muchas I'm like, but maybe I'm winning
for Reggie Bullock and Frank Millikiller whowas Knicks last year, and so I'm
rooting for them. And then Lucais it's nasty. He's just nasty.

(01:29:16):
Like, he's just nasty. Man. It's like, you gotta and I
know you you played and saw allthat same type of energy during Live Bird
error. Yeah, I'm sure theperson looking at Live Bird like, well,
he's slow, he can't jump.How do you know what is going

(01:29:39):
on? That's the same thing thattoday, the same principle with Luca.
But I tell you, man,this guy is a serious baller. I
mean I love his game. Uh, I don't know. My picks would
be. I want to see Bostonand Dollars in the playoff because I want

(01:30:01):
to see new Blood. I wantto say yeah or new look up the
NBA. So yeah, I'll leaveit at that. I know it hurts
me as a Nick fan and sayany of these teams. I got my
Nick Fan TV thing on that ifanybody comes out and and does this,

(01:30:23):
Boston, Boston want Boston to takeit. Yeah, kills It's killing me,
especially since we beat Boston in thefirst game with a long and Susan
and everybody was. Everybody said,we're gonna and all that. But I

(01:30:43):
I but you know what Udoka asas the coach, I want to see
him get it. Yeah, Iwant to see him out of everybody,
I'm gonna go for because he washe was getting a lot of heat,
man, and and I like thatpersevery not a lot of heat in mid
season. Uh yeah yeah, yeahyeah, not Miami heat, but he

(01:31:09):
was getting heat. All right,Bro, I thank you so much for
this great day, taking this youknow, your time out to spend it
with me. I just love you. Didn't you didn't say you didn't say
you know you got that call?We like, Chuck, get your ass
on. This is a Spencer Heywardrule nephew. Bro, come on,

(01:31:36):
get in here. I thank youso much, Bro, and thank you
for your time, thank you foryour conversation, thank you for being a
friend, and I love you.Thank you for a hero friend. I
always salute you. People could goto r STV app dot com and pull

(01:31:56):
down the Rap Station app. That'swhere we go and curate the art form
and you know, and there's alwaysgreat things that we salute you on special
songs, videos and stuff like that. It was a honor to do your
voice over years ago in your documentary. And anytime you need me, just
have it. Okay. What aboutyour book? Where can they? Where

(01:32:17):
can you pick up your book?On hip hop? I think it a
good Amazon. I got four orfive books out they get Just look up
Chuck D and book and either gonnabe Chuck D or Charles Schumer. Okay,
all right, bro, Change theworld James vikin never Ever The Saved.

(01:32:40):
This is a change. Change theworld, James again, never Ever
The Saved. This is a Changeproduced by Heartcast Media

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