Episode Transcript
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The scripture says that God is necessary and we are not, and that God is the authority upon which we know things.
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[Music]
Hello and welcome to another episode of the Stand Up Dude podcast. I'm Stewart White,
one of your hosts, along with Tim Bisagno. Oh, you're saying okay. Thank you.
Thank you. You're correct. Yes. It is your name. It is how you say it.
Yes, it's been a minute since I've had that name, but thank you for helping.
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Yeah. Because I get stumped with that part often. You do. Sometimes I forget my own name.
So, well, Tim, today we want to get right into it because we have a guest in studio with us. His name is Kevin
Kookogey. He is an entertainment lawyer and business executive with 32 years of experience.
Over more than three decades, he has represented hundreds of recording artists,
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publishers, songwriters, producers, churches, festivals, merchandisers, touring companies,
and independent labels. That's a lot of stuff. I'm just going to jump right in there and say that's
a lot of things. Kevin has also represented the collateral business interests and ventures of his
music industry clients, including ownership and development of real estate, restaurants,
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aircraft, yachts, professional fundraising companies, and certain franchise models. Kevin
co-founded Telepromped LLC, Marketing and Management Company, organized to support the career of
Mutemath, who I really like. Earthsuit?
Earthsuit? AKA Mutemath. Okay. Okay. It was Earthsuit first. Earthsuit first.
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Earthsuit ended. And Mutemath was like the second. We're almost forgot he was here because this
thing does. Don't interrupt me while I'm introducing you. Sorry.
So Mutemath, which was an act that you had the privilege of managing for 14 years,
and then Kevin has written a number of books, is a public speaker and co-host of a weekly podcast,
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leads a monthly Bible study and teaches lectures on Christian apologetics, and the political
duty of the people of God. Kevin spent a year on national television and other media following his
testimony in front of House Ways and Means Committee on June 4, 2013, after successfully defending
himself against viewpoint discrimination by the IRS, which resulted in a consent decree binding
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the IRS from further discrimination. That's very impressive. Yes it is. Kevin and his wife, Bonnie,
have been married for 33 years. They have six children and at last counter, expecting their
third grandchild, which you said. Still expecting. Yes. A couple of weeks from now. I don't know when
when this will air, but maybe maybe we'll have a third grandchild. You may have a third grandchild
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by the time this airs. Well, Kevin, after all that, welcome to the show. Yeah. Thank you. I,
bios are funny, right? I mean, you want to tell someone about yourself, but you would never describe
yourself in that way. And as you were saying that when you lose their pack and a lot, it's just
choke. Yeah. When you use the word collateral, I'm like, ah, that's a lawyer word. Sorry. I was more,
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in fact, I said you too. I said, you don't have to use it all, right? Just give yourself an
outline of who I am. It sounds a little funny, but lawyers use lawyer words is good. I thought it was
a great word actually, but, but as I hope that conveys lawyers, only my way of feeding my family and
making a living. I have so many other interests and things that I do that I don't get paid for
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that I think are more at the heart. Not that I don't love what I do and I've been blessed to be
able to feed my family as an entertainment lawyer. I often say, if not a real lawyer, I'm an
entertainment lawyer. But my heart is driven by these things that are more on the outer circles or
outer edges of what my law practice is. Well, we would love to dig into some of those things today.
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And today we we wanted to talk with you about, as you mentioned in your bio there, apologetics,
and more importantly, the importance of apologetics for Christian men. So let's dive into that.
Did you have anything you wanted to add to that? No, not really other than other than what's written on
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on the bio. He's a great man. He's a cool guy that loves Jesus. He serves his family flawlessly.
I don't know about flawlessly. That's a heavy burden to do that.
And I might not my wife will watch you since I'm sorry. I can't stand here. Where was the
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edit there? But one of my favorite things that I other than everything I just said is that my,
I've got two sons. They're 22 and 26. And they want to hang out with Kevin. And all of my sons
friends that are guys that are all in their 20s, they want to hang out with Kevin. Because he
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represents solidity, rectumistrance, truth with grace, and he's a solid guy. And they just kind of
can't get enough. So for that reason, tell you the truth, Kevin, is why I wanted to have you here.
Just because I trust my, I trust my sons and I trust their 20 something friends. And they think
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you're amazing. And I'm just can't wait to hear from you today. Well, that's it's an honor,
obviously. And it was an honor to teach your sons, right? That's how we first met. I think by
nine years ago, Tim, in a Paul, a, general class actually was the subject matter. And so,
I don't have words to add to that. I hope I can, I hope I can carry about a fraction of what you just
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said, otherwise people get the wrong idea. But on the subject of apologetics, let me first say,
because I know we've only got 45 minutes, maybe at most, we could never cover the subject matter
adequately. Right? All we can do is kind of hit on some of the high points. And, and it's important for
me to, I think the way to delve into this topic and, and perhaps we can come back at another time and
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have a follow up, or if you find people having questions, and they want to ask you questions,
you want to direct them to me and I can go other, you know, other ways answer them. Because the topic
of apologetics, Christian apologetics is something that people study for four years at school, post
graduate. I've been interested in the topic for all of my life, but have probably studied it very
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seriously for about the last 15 years. So how could we possibly boil it down to 45 minutes? Yeah,
yeah, yeah. What is apologetics? So let's define our terms, right? True story, when my second oldest
daughter was working as a high school or teenager to local establishment in the national area,
she was reading CS Lewis's mere Christianity, which is one of the most famous and well-known
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a Christian apologetics works. And on her break, she would read that book and an adult who was not
a believer came to her and said, "Oh, what are you reading?" And she said, "Oh, CS Lewis." And he
didn't know who CS Lewis was. And as she was explaining to him who CS Lewis was and what CS Lewis
was known for, he said, "Oh, so you mean you Christians are apologizing?" She was stunned that
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that's actually what he believed, but no, we are not apologizing for her face. Faith, the Greek word
"apology" means to make a defense, right? And that's what we're doing. We're making a defense
of our faith. That's, it's really important to understand that now. Which makes perfect sense being
a defense lawyer? But I'm an entertainment lawyer. Not a real lawyer. You're defending your client.
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So it makes perfect sense that this would be in your lane. Sometimes I have to defend my clients.
Sometimes that's when it gets ugly, right? Sometimes you have to be the bad guy for your clients.
But the Christian apologetic is rooted. I think most Christians know this verse, which is
1 Peter 315, always be prepared to give an answer to anyone who asks you to give a reason for
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the hope that you have. But do this with gentleness and respect. Now, I will say that a lot of Christian
apologists and Christians in general misunderstand the scope of that verse. It's really important at
the outset that we distinguish between giving an answer to someone who wants an answer versus giving
an answer to someone who is not interested in all in hearing from you. Someone who is shouting you
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down, someone who is ridiculing you. And I think the weakness of a lot of modern Christian apologists and
how they, one of the ways they go, of course, is they try to take 1 Peter 315 and apply it in a
situation where the other side has no interest in hearing this. It's important because the question
is, well, then what do we do about those people who are trying to shout us down who are really just
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being belligerent and not interested in a rational, debater discussion? Well, the truth is we
can't do anything apologetically. We can pray for them and we're called to pray for them, right? We
can care for them. We can witness by our lives and our actions. But apologetically, we shouldn't waste
our time or efforts like throwing pearls before swine. So it's really important to distinguish that.
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By the way, I could start rolling down this. I want to be sensitive to your questions, but I've got
a lot of things. Let me say this. Whatever we accomplish today, I would like to at least accomplish
the structure. I think it's important to understand the framework of Christian apologetics.
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And you may be surprised that I disagree with the method that a lot of Christian apologists use
and why it's ineffective ultimately to an unbeliever. And I think it's important that we...
To an unbeliever, unbeliever. Why Christian apologists sometimes miss the mark to unbelievers because
they're taking an approach which I think is not as faithful as the approach that I'm going to
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recommend. Not my approach, by the way. Sure. Okay. Awesome way to hear it. Well, so as this show is
mainly targeting men of a certain age group, why would apologetics be important to them specifically?
Apologetics is actually important to everyone, right? When we go to verse Peter 3, 15, the verse that I
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quoted and referenced, notice that it doesn't say pastors always be prepared to give an answer.
It doesn't even say men always be prepared versus women. Always be prepared to give an answer.
It's an admonition to all Christians. Now, because the man is the head of the family and has a
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responsibility as a Christian, then it particularly falls upon the man to lead in this effort to
teach the way to do it. But apologetics falls to every single Christian has the responsibility
to do apologetics. Man, that's so powerful. So with young men and their faith, like we have
listeners who some would say their believers and then some would say that they're not. But when it
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comes to apologetics, it's not just the unbelievers that we're trying to target. It's like you're saying
the believer needs it just as much. This is something that reinforces their faith.
Yes. And here's where one of the benchmarks or the foundation of structural points I wanted to
discuss is important. A lot of Christian apologists, strangely to me, because when you read the
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Bible, it tells us very clearly about the nature of man. But they take man upon his own description
of who he is. So when a man comes and says, I want to believe in God, but I just don't see enough
evidence for it. Well, the scriptures tell us very plainly that that's foolishness. The scriptures
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say that only the wicked say there is no God. The scriptures also say that unbelief is foolish.
There's no such thing as innocent unbelief. In fact, Romans 1, 18 through 21, people suppress the truth
in unrighteousness. Or the NIV says, by their wickedness, why? Since what may be known about God is
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plain to them because God has made it plain to them. Now, if you read the King James, it talks about God,
the reason it's plain to them is because God made us. He manifests himself in us and in the world around
us. Those are the two. And so he goes on to say that people are without excuse. So the first step in
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doing the apologetic process is making sure that we know the unbeliever better than the unbeliever
knows himself. There is no such thing as innocent unbelief. That really stuck out when you say that
a second ago. Yeah, the scriptures tell us that all of us are sinful. And we're without excuse.
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World view changing of a Christian evangelist. Yes, because if you take the unbeliever according
to his interpretation of himself, then you are already abandoning the authority of God. You're
already saying, no God, what you say about man is not the starting point. I'm going to take what this
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man is telling me about his views as being the starting point. Now, it's important to understand that
this isn't always done consciously. The unbeliever doesn't always vociferously claim, I am rebelling
against God. It becomes part and parcel. There's a subconscious rebellion that goes on as well. But it's
important for us as a polygist to start with the fact that God says that unbelief is without excuse.
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And as we'll unroll here in our discussion today, I'm going to show you that everyone believes in God.
Knowledge of God is inescapable. The difference between the believer and the unbeliever is that while
the believer gives thanks and glory to God for revealing himself and all things to us, the unbeliever
persists in pretending that there is no God. That is so powerful because yeah, you're right. If you
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engage with someone in the same way when we start it out, let's define our terms. Let's define our
positions first. Let's define you will encounter somebody who will claim, my objections are objectively
true because I've never seen or I've never whatever, but your claim then is, the scripture says the
opposite. The scripture says you see the evidence of God all around you, even though we have whatever
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in different things. Yeah, it's just as important. Yeah, and I think that's something that gets
frequently left aside is that believers say, oh, I can see God in nature and the glory of the creation,
which is true. But God made us. And if we believe what the scriptures say about who God is, what is
the nature of God? God is perfect. He's necessary. He is indispensable. He's all powerful and all-knowing.
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Then you can't say that God would create something in his image that does not know him.
So if you believe that an unbeliever does not know God, then you are actually saying something
about your view of God. You're saying that God is not great enough to be able to create something.
Oh, I made a mistake. I've created something that couldn't possibly know me. There's no
set, the scriptures tell us over and over again. Unbelief is inexcusable. Unbelief is wicked. It's
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rebellious, right? That's what separates us from God. Yeah. I can remember being a child and
I was raised in a Christian home. So I had the concept of God presented to me. But probably before
I even really understood that, I had the awareness then to go, I didn't exist. And then I did something
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created me. So that logically goes back. I don't know how old I was, four years old. But I'm like,
so then who created all of this, who created everything else? Where did that come from? How did that
work? And it was like obvious to me, even then, something had to create this. This didn't come from
nothing. So I think that even reveals like that the truth of God is still there. The creation
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testifies to it. And in your heart itself testifies like something made me. I'm different than the
animals and different than the rest of creation. But I don't necessarily have the full explanation
for what that is. But it is there. By the way, one comment follow up on what you said. It is also
important, by the way, that when we are engaging the apologetic process that we are not just,
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I'm not advocating for the general concept of a God, small G. I'm also, I'd be happy to debate
somebody who tries to claim that the Hindu God or the Muslim God or universalists, I'll reject that
as easily as any other unbelief. When we defend what we believe, when we provide a defense,
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we are defending a very particular God. And that is the triune God of the Scriptures.
Yes. That is very important. Very important.
Why is that part so important? So if I go down this road, I'm going to get to my conclusion,
maybe a few steps faster than we need to. Should we put a pin in that?
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Yeah. Let's definitely come back to that because that's a really good question and I have the answer.
But I want to get there step by step. Yes, please. So we've kind of touched on this a little bit
starting out. But what are the main objections that you would encounter, especially when it comes to
Christianity and men, but when you're talking to them, what are the things they throw out? You kind
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of mentioned the one in the beginning, but what are the other ones and how do you overcome them?
Well, let me give you a prologue to that by saying that our duty is also, and this is part of the
objection, I'm not persuaded. That's not our duty. Our duty is to prove the Scripture say that
we are to prove what is true. Let me give you an illustration of proof. Exactly.
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Persuading is the job of the Holy Spirit. Only God can change hearts. It's not our job. It's not
within our capacity. Our job is to prove. Now, this happens in court all the time and people never
think twice about it. The jury or the judge, if it's a bench trial, they go through all the evidence,
they come to the conclusion and they render a verdict. The verdict is based on proof.
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Right? Now that we don't in our judicial system do we allow the criminal or the convicted criminal to
say, "Well, I'm sorry. I don't accept your evidence. Therefore, the case gets thrown out."
I could go now. It doesn't matter that the person is not persuaded. That is in God's hands.
Sometimes they're persuaded. Sometimes they're not but our job. So we must never measure our success
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as a polygist by who's persuaded and who's not, because then we start to get into the business
of the Holy Spirit and which causes us to change the message, to morph the message, and continue
to stay on what is true. We try to say, "Well, maybe if I tone it down a little bit, maybe if I kind of
cut off the edges of what scriptures, maybe if I add to scripture, all you're doing is appealing
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again to man-centered apologists, which is, "Oh, he really is just innocent in his unbelief,
and I need to change my message." No, no, no. Scriptures don't say that. That's powerful.
Okay. Okay. So that's one of the objections. I'm not persuaded. Yeah, I'm not persuaded. Okay.
So what would be another one as you're thinking of it, that men in particular?
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Yeah, I don't know if it's men in particular. I really, to be honest, I didn't think about your
questions in terms of men in particular, but just objections in general. Well, you've seen them,
right? Some of the most popular objections to believing in God. Let's even talk about the existence
of God again. Talk about a very particular God, but when people say, "I don't believe in God," we
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usually hear it like this. "If God is good," as the Christians say, "How come so much bad is
happened?" Yeah. Everybody served them. And we take that premise and go, "Oh, okay." There's three
simple ways that I always teach my students to answer that question. Number one is, "If God,
this particular God of the Scriptures did not exist, A) how do you account for asking that question?
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And I'll come back and take this part. B) how do you know what is good and bad? And C) on what basis do
you proceed upon the expectation that things should be good? Okay. What was the first one?
First one is, how do you account for asking the question? How do you account for understanding? Okay,
so this gets into the, and I do want to go back and take the steps because if I jump ahead,
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it could confuse. But that objection, in fact, let's put a pin in that and go back to the prior.
It's really important that we understand, and I want to be respectful of our time, but I think if
we don't lay these foundations, then the questions you ask, I fear that I'll answer them in a way which
may confuse. Okay. I feel like I've got to go back to A, B, and C and some of your questions are
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leading to X, Y, and Z. So, one of the mistakes that Christian apologists make, and it's this aim to
prove to the world, or sometimes to persuade who Jesus is, that Jesus Christ is God, that He's Lord.
And a lot of the emphasis is, especially in modern times, is proving the resurrection.
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We have an abundance of evidence now proving not only Jesus' existence and all the literature
about it, but proving His resurrection. The problem with trying to use the resurrection to an
unbeliever is that the unbeliever already rejects a supernatural worldview. Yeah. Right. And Jesus
tells us that in Scripture, after Jesus was resurrected, the Scriptures say, when He's talking with
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them, people who had seen Him on the cross, they'd seen Him before the cross, they saw Him die, buried,
and now they saw Him alive in front of them. What does Scripture say? Many believed some doubted.
Right. We go backwards from that. The rich man in Lazarus, the story of the rich man in Lazarus,
right? When the rich man dies, Jesus tells us in this parable, he's in hell and he recognizes, oh,
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everything they were telling me is indeed true. He's becoming an empiricist now.
Suddenly, he realizes, there's heaven. I'm in hell. There's this great chasm between heaven and hell.
And he says, Father Abraham, please go back and tell my brothers and sisters and my family that
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it is real. And what does Jesus say that Abraham says to Him? No, they have Moses and the prophets.
They have the Word of God that have been telling us. And He goes on to say, and even if a man were
raised from the dead, they wouldn't believe it. What does this prove? It proves that facts do not
speak for themselves. It's a very important concept in Christian apologetics. And many Christians
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get off the mark because they want to go facts, facts, facts, facts. Facts are always interpreted
according to the worldview of the person that's observing them. I'm going to give you three
examples. Number one, and your sons would know this because I used to give this in class. Imagine
that we're standing out on the west coast looking out in the Pacific Ocean beautiful night and we see
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a ship. Let's say it's an oil tanker going toward the horizon. And as we were talking about it,
so we're seeing the same ship and there's no question that we're watching the same thing. And let's
assume for this analogy that there's nothing else on the ocean with insight. We watch as that ship
gets smaller and smaller and smaller and smaller and eventually it disappears. So what has happened
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to that ship? Well, the answer depends on what our ultimate convictions are about the shape of
the earth. If I believe that the earth is round, then I have no fear that that ship has disappeared
because it's going to... Yes, it's going maybe to Hawaii, maybe it's going to Australia, who knows?
But if I believe the earth is flat, then I become very concerned that that ship has fallen off the earth.
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But we've both observed the same thing. So we can't possibly say that those facts speak for
themselves. No, those facts are interpreted according to our ultimate convictions. Now, that doesn't
mean our ultimate convictions change what is true. What is true was always true. That's what I love.
Francis Shavitz said that truth is always true. But what it's important is for us, the only way that we're
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going to see things as they really are is to believe what is true. If we believe something in his
false, we will never discover the truth. Only when you believe what is true can you see things as
they really are. In this context, only when you believe that the earth is round, can you really see
and understand what's just happened. But the fact that you believe it was round or believe it
is fat has nothing to do with what actually happened, right? That's truth. That's ultimate. Okay,
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give you two more important examples to prove that facts do not speak for themselves.
Let's say, because everybody has certain beliefs about things, let's say for this analogy that you
believe that all gods, small G, are immortal and that Apollo, Greek God, is a God. Okay. Now imagine
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that you see Apollo die in battle. What has happened? Yeah, where else do you got wrecked? Well,
you've got to make a decision, right? You could either say, well, you didn't really know what's
God. Either Apollo wasn't a God or... All gods can die. Yeah, all gods are not immortal. But the
important question is, how do you come to that decision? It has nothing to do with what you just saw.
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You have made a pre-conviction. You have a precondition in your heart that tells you,
because you're choosing at that point based on your observation. One person might say,
all gods are not immortal. The other person might say, no, no, no, Apollo wasn't a God, but that
doesn't matter. The point is that how you come to that conclusion has nothing to do with the facts
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that has to do with what you believe. They can be one more example. Okay. Do you ever go
either whether it's a canoe or a... If you're... Those long-skulling, the little... Yeah,
sculling or just paddling in a fishing boat or something. Okay. Assuming it's a nice day and the water's
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not murky. When you stick your paddle in the water, what do you see? Little waves. Well, with regard to
the paddle itself. Dispersement. Oh, it bends. The lake goes underwater. Does it really bend? No. How do you
know that? It's perverted. That is the word. So you pull it out of the water and it's straight.
You put it in the water and it's bent. You pull it out of the water and it's straight. Okay.
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So what this tells you and what this tells me and everyone is that your interpretation of that
event doesn't have to do with what you're seeing. Because if it based upon what you're seeing,
then what you're going to tell me is, well, paddles when they put in the water, they bend,
and when you pull them out, they're straight. But your preconditioned heart, your mind, your convictions
tell you because you know them based on other things that know this is still straight even though
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my eyes, this event, this fact is telling me it's bent. I know better otherwise. We do this all the
time in life. This is why at the root of apologetics, we must recognize that it is a conflict of
worldviews and that's where we're going to get to your question. Okay. It's not a cut. You cannot
argue. It's a fool's errand to try to argue facts outside of the Christian worldview. Facts are
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amazing because they all testify and give glory to God. But if you're talking to an unbeliever
who does not accept the supernatural God of the Bible, they're going to come up with the justification,
for example, for the resurrection. Well, that's just an unusual event and we'll figure it out in time.
I mean, this started at the time of Jesus' resurrection. Many believe some doubt it. There's no point in
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going to an unbeliever who already tells us that he does not accept the Bible to be the word of God
to try to use facts. Okay. Then what are we left with? We're left with this worldview. Right? What
is a worldview? It's important to define our terms. So a worldview in short is a network. It's not
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just one belief because nobody can have just one belief. It's a network of presuppositions that are
not verifiable by empirical evidence. They're not verifiable by natural science. But rather,
it is the tool in terms of which you view all of those events. It's the tool with which you come to
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understand or interpret or organize all of your events and experiences and things of that nature.
Just like we do with the paddle. Just like people do with the resurrection. Just like we do with
looking at the ship going off the horizon or determining is Apollo a God or was he not immortal.
All of those things are determined by your worldview. So the question.
Like the glasses. This is your worldview and when you put it on your scene. Anything through that.
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Everything comes to an end. The worldview doesn't come from facts and empiricism. It doesn't come
from circumstances. The worldview is a precondition. Only when your worldview is the Christian
worldview can you make sense of anything. So this is a point claim. I like that. I want to lay it out
for you and then we can get into your questions. People say, "Okay, what do we do now with conflicting
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worldviews?" And some apologists just stop there and they say, "Well, he has a natural worldview
and I have a supernatural worldview." He doesn't believe the God of the Bible and I believe the God of
Bible. Therefore the conversation ends and think, "No." Because the person who's an unbeliever,
which by the way, all unbelief falls into one category. The Christian worldview, this is why,
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by the way, to do apologetics effectively. You do not need to be a master in Hinduism,
universalism, Buddhism. You don't need to be. It's important to know those things because you need
to understand their arguments. But when it boils down to it, the reason that apologetics becomes
plain and simple from the scriptural standpoint is because the scripture says that God is necessary
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and we are not and that God is the authority upon which we know things. This is the Garden of Eden's
sin was not that Adam and Eve took the fruit from the tree. It was the step before that when they said,
"Let me reflect on my own authority whether or not what God said was true." God says, "Don't
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pick from the fruit in the middle of the garden." So the snake comes up and says, "Did God really say?"
The sin was when Adam and Eve said, "Hmm, let me think about it." For my point of view, they should have
said, "Mr. Snake God has declared not to do this." So the question is, the question of how we know
God needs to be answered, "Do we know it on God's declaration or do we know it based on our own
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interpretation and our own observation?" As soon as you go to that, my own interpretation and my
own observation, then you're putting yourself above God and you're making yourself the measure of
all things rather than scripture says, "God is the measure of all things." Here's where it leads.
The reason that we can say with confidence over and over again to anybody who opposes the gospel
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that the Christian worldview is the only worldview and that the God of the Bible is real
is that without, unless God is who He says He is in scripture, unless the world is what God tells us
it is in scripture, unless the nature of reality is as God defines it in scripture, unless man is
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what man God describes him, unless the nature of truth itself is how God defines it, then we
couldn't know anything. The Christian worldview is the precondition to the intelligibility of
all experience. This is what the Christian and I'll explain what it means. The Christian worldview
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is the precondition to the intelligibility of all experience. Socrates sought to make the scriptures
sought to make the scriptures comply with or satisfy or subject it to the test of his reason.
When the reality is Jesus Christ and the word of God is the precondition for the intelligible use of
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Socrates' reason. Socrates can't even use reason. When you ask an unbeliever, the unbeliever will say,
"So my position is the unbeliever knows God whether he admits it or not." The unbeliever says,
"And we go on to say, and you couldn't know anything without the God of the Bible, without the God of
the Bible being true." The unbeliever says, "That's bananas because I am a scientist and I reject God
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and they go on and they tell you about all the things that they know." Well, the Christian
apology shouldn't ever get into a bay of tit for tat. You should say, "Absolutely. You do know
every one of those things and what you know is God." That was like Paul when he spoke to you.
Exactly. This is started with that. I'm so glad you brought that up. So in Athens,
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in Acts 17, and this is why it's the most faithful approach to Christian apologetics.
But some people misunderstand this. So I think it's important that we discuss it. When Paul went to
the, he was speaking both to the Jews and to the Greeks, to the church and the Unchurch. He was
talking to everybody. But as he's waiting to get his opportunity to speak, he walks around and he
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says, "I notice that you're worshiping an unknown God." Now, why is that important? Because he goes on
to completely dispel their myth. He says, "You worship an unknown God, but in reality you exist
according to the real God." You live in the Christian worldview while rejecting and pretending
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it doesn't. And he goes on to say, "In Christ we live and move and have our being." He quotes their
poets. But he's proving the fact that if you take the position that God is not at the back of everything
that you're doing, it's as foolish as a man saying, as a man breathing and saying, "I object to the
existence of error and oxygen." You cannot object to the existence of error and oxygen while breathing it.
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Or here's another example. It's like a grandchild being hoisted up into her father's lap to slap him on
the face. If God were not the foundation in holding the unbeliever, the unbeliever wouldn't have the
ability to object to God in the first place. So one of the objections of the world,
respect your original question, is I love football. Are you guys football fans? Have you noticed in the
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last five years in particular, it's been going on a sports for 25 years, but in five years in particular,
the focus on analytics is now public. It used to be just in the general manager's office.
Yeah. Baseballs over the top. Yeah. Okay. Annelid and yet there's such a pride in the sports industry
about we are gods. We don't need God. We're relying upon science, right? Science tells us there's a
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78% chance that on this next play, they're going to score a touchdown. The different players on the
team, they're also, they got the whole script of who's that's, you know, not just ladies, but they're
analytics right here. And the coaches, whether or not to go for a two-point conversion in certain
circumstances or to go for extra point, well, the analytics tell us. And there's such, there's such pride in
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that. The funny thing is, is that science with its real science depends upon regularity of natural
order. It depends upon this notion of cause and effect. It also depends upon the past, resembling
the present and the future telling, looking like that. Right? Okay. These are all Christian concepts.
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This, this is from the God who created everything and ordained it all according to his own purpose.
Right? And for his glory, we have an answer for it. We say that's the non-believer says, no, that's
just how it is. Well, that's not an answer, right? That it begs the question, why is it that way?
They use logic. They come up with scientific laws, which are taking, making generalization at a
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specific event, is repeated over a certain amount of time, and you come up with the law. The operate
and demand that we speak rationally, yet they say that everything was chaos and everything we came
from, you know, primordial blobs and we just came into existence, you know, happenstance.
Yeah. Well, if that were the case, then you cannot account for demanding that I answer you rationally.
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You cannot even account for language being the same. We, for language to make sense, you have to
say, well, today, when I use the word today, it has to mean the same thing tomorrow, or we lose all
ability to know anything. Well, these concepts are easy for a Christian to explain because God created
all things and holds them together according to the counsel of his will. The world says they pretend,
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they say, nope, that didn't come from God. I can't tell you where it came from. And by the way,
because if it did come from God, I might have to believe in them and be accountable to him. That's what that
means. That's exactly what that's all about. I don't want to be accountable to God therefore. But
the reason, so we call this, it's proving the gospel, proving the truth of the scriptures and the
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existence of this one particular God of the Bible through the impossibility of the contrary.
We do it in courts again all the time. Most people don't understand or they don't pause to reflect.
Very rarely do you have a smoking gun in a legal case. Usually cases are decided based on circumstantial
evidence. So the guy was dead and there's blood coming out of a wound and we saw that he got hit by
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38 special. Joe, we know, was in that house on Wednesday. The guy was found dead on Thursday. Joe
has a 38 special and he's minus one bullet in the chamber. You could put together effects. And
people are convicted all the time. We do, we must do the same thing when we come to the Bible.
There is nothing wrong with use. In fact, it's foolish again to try to use material smoking gun
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evidence because a person who doesn't operate in a Christian worldview is going to reject it out
of hand anyway and say, well, I'll come up with a reason for that. But circumstantial evidence is
without God, you couldn't know anything because you don't have any, you can't account. Does the world
operate that way? Of course they do. But what they, what they can't do is they can't account for why
they do it. Why do they use logic? Why do they demand rationally? Why do they demand morality?
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Why do they demand that we use the same language? Why do they have these arguments? The very
fact that we're arguing presupposes, distinctions between your position and my position.
And that one of us is right. These are all Christian principles upon which the entire, and why did
God do it? God did it for our good. He wanted us to know him. That's what John 17 says. This is
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eternal life to know the one true God and his son Jesus whom he sent. That's so important to know God.
Yeah, to know him. This very particular God. Sorry, I'm getting excited. I could just like
you all on. You're good. There's a joke that's often used, I've heard in sermon illustrations, but it
kind of illustrates what you're saying. And it's scientists come to God and they say, "Hey, we've
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been able to prove that we don't need you anymore and we can create man on our own." And so that
he God says, "Okay, well let's do a contest, you know, just to prove it." And they, God gets down and
he gets in the dirt and he creates a man out of the dirt, breathes life into him. Boom, man is made.
And then the scientists go, "It's easy." So they get down into the dirt and they start doing it,
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and God goes, "Hold on, hold on, get your own dirt." And it's really what you're saying. It's the same
point. It's the same point. You know, they're all, "Oh, well, we just assume that this is mine, but it's
not." They're exactly right. That's cool, man. That exactly confirms the point that we're talking
about with breathing, using God's air, right? Or giving us light. It is, yeah, you've got to start with
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your own dirt. And they always do that. They always cheat. They steal from our worldview in order to
rebel and reject the worldview, which is God's and God's look. Knowledge of God is inescapable.
Remember, the only difference between the believer and the unbeliever is that the believer gives
glory to God and thanks him for that. The unbeliever pretends that he has no knowledge of God.
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So what I'm here and you say is it's so important to overcome objections. This is sort of the
biggest piece that you must overcome first and be good at spotting. It's a structural, yes.
Because once you do, you can argue and I don't mean argue in a negative way. Yeah, fighting kind of.
You can debate with people who are presuming they want to have the debate, honestly. You can have
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those discussions with such confidence because it applies to every situation. The other benefit,
by the way. And don't let me forget, I do have, I want to talk about one more objection that we always
get. That's important to address. Did we hit the four corner things? Well, I'm getting most
of the structure down. Okay, good. But there's an important objection that you must know that will help
you. But the reason it's important is because you can go into any conversation with confidence and
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plus it allows you to listen. The best way to have an apologetic discussion is you can ask the
unbeliever what do they believe? And you don't have to change anything they believe. You keep asking
them questions and eventually they're going to give you enough rope to hang them figuratively
speaking because they will tell you things that are inconsistent. They will say that, oh my scientists
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and I reject God. And I say, well, then if you're a scientist who's researching cure for cancer,
why would you even go into the lab unless you knew that God had created this order and that cause and
effect exists? My worldview tells me why we can depend on the future looking like the past and why
cause and effect or something we can rely on. But you who claim that God doesn't exist and that
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the God of the Bible is not true, you have no basis for accounting and proceeding on that. You may
as well not go to the lab. You must rely on these presuppositions that there is truth, there is order
or else you wouldn't go into the that you couldn't go into. You couldn't walk out with any premises.
Right. Yeah. So they're cheating at that point. So here's one objection that Christians get and also
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don't know how to handle and that is, well, let me start it by asserting, in order to believe the
word of God, you also have to presuppose that it is the word of God. And the first thing that the
non-Christian says, well, that's circular reasoning. You're presupposing that the Bible's word of God,
of course you're going to conclude that Jesus is God. Well, you ever watch Finneeson Furb?
(43:11):
Yes. Remember that. So it's one of my favorite cartoons. I never watched it until I was an adult.
I know. My kids, my kids watched it, but I didn't know they were watching. I didn't pay attention to it,
but I had a friend who introduced me to it through his young daughter one morning. She was watching and
like, what is this? So you know, when Finnees, he would make these contraptions and people would always
(43:34):
come to him and say, I remember the roller coaster one. He built this giant roller coaster and they
come and they say to him, well, aren't you too young to be building this big roller coaster? And what
does he always say? What is his young? No, he says, why yes? Yes, I am. Yes, he's the same answer. We
must give when people say, Christian, you're, you're employing circular reasoning. Why yes? Yes, we are.
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Everyone employ circular reasoning. The unbeliever starts with the premise that he is the measure of
all things, that he is the one who must subject the scripture to the test of his reason. And then,
of course, he goes to scriptures and says, aha, it doesn't prove that God exists. So he starts with the
premise that he is the measure of all things and he ends with the conclusion that he's the measure of
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all things. Everybody reasons in a circle, we must never shy away from admitting that the differences,
not all circles are intelligible and not all circles are true. Only the one that tells us again,
since the Christian worldview is the precondition to the intelligibility of anything without God of
the Bible, we couldn't know anything. Not to get too far off that track, but like I think an example would
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be for the age of the earth and evolution and stuff, the circle they'll use is, well, we know those
rocks are this old because we find fossils in there that are this old and we know those fossils are
that old because the rocks are that old. So it's like, but no one ever goes, wait a minute, how do we know
either one of them are that old? Well, we will radio carbon dating or something. Well, how do we know
(45:06):
that's accurate? Has anybody been able to go back that far? So there's circles where it's like,
well, it seems good. Yeah, I guess that seems true, but that doesn't necessarily mean it is.
And I'm glad you brought that up because I'm not going to get into it, but I taught a class once
called embarrassing the evolutionists. So if you ever want to have a discussion just about that
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lane of Christian apologetics, I'd love to do it. Yeah, we'd love to. I love to. Okay, so one of the things
we wanted to do is give men tips, guidance, how they can engage the Christian worldview in their
environments, but also I think even more importantly developing a Christian worldview. I think one
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goes and feeds the other. So how can they really develop that Christian worldview and not just
make presumptions like maybe the rest of the world does and interrogate them? It's really important
question and it's it's disappointing that in the Christian church that this is not the answer, but
I'll point to the old song which has incredible spiritual depth, but I know you'll know it.
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Jesus loves me this I know for the Bible tells me so. Now that sounds childish and we think of when
we were five years old singing that in church group or teaching it to our children, but no
truer theology exists than that. If men are and anybody but in specific to men, the leaders of the
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family are to become the leaders that Christ wants them to be. They have to spend time with Christ.
Yeah. And Christ exists in the word of God, right? The word of God is alive and active, sharper than
any double edged sword. It penetrates even to dividing soul and spirit, joints and marrow. It judges
the thoughts and attitudes of the heart. Nothing in all creation is hidden from its sight. Everything is
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uncovered and laid bare before the eyes of him to whom we must give account, right? Hebrews four.
That is the essence. There is no substitute for spending time in the word. Does that mean that we don't
need teachers? We absolutely need good teachers of the word. Just like the Ethiopian Unic, right?
He's like, "Tell me, I'm reading this and I..." Yes, I love that. And the favorite part is that I don't
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hear a lot of people mention is that he said, "Baptize me." And he was in a desert and there
have to be water. The timing of all of it that has the cross and the timing. And it's just so,
I love that story. So many pieces are so beautiful. Absolutely. All within it, which proves again
that God holds everything together according to the counsel as well. And it's a simple answer,
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but it is the most important answer, time in the word, understanding the word. In our modern
society, the biggest temptation is, I don't have time for the word. But that is such a lie. If we don't
start with the word, we'll let me go back to the lab example we talked about with cancer. A lot of
people's objections will be, "Well, Christianity doesn't..." Or the Bible doesn't talk about this,
(48:09):
right? And they'll name something specific. Well, it is true that the Bible may not talk about
everything. It doesn't talk about football, it doesn't talk about analytics, it doesn't talk about
cancer. But the Bible, although it may not talk about everything, it speaks to everything.
Yes. Absolutely. And so when we go into the lab, we go into the lab with a knowledge of who is God.
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How do we know who God is? What is the nature and character of God in the world around us?
And we take those principles into the lab and so we can depend upon them. God does it for our good.
That's why Christians should be the best scientists that ever exist because we know why these things
are the way they are. And we have the biggest reason to advocate for further research in advance
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because we know, "Well, God has ordered this world this way. We expect that these things are going
to happen." So if we change this, what will happen? The scientific method, Christians should be
the biggest champions of it. Sometimes they shy away and think, "Oh, I don't know how to answer
the scientist." Yeah. Bologna. The more deeper that you go, the more true that it gets, which is
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that's the unshakable, beautiful piece of truth and starting with the premise and the world view
of the scriptural, the principles and all that it represents where the war between science and faith,
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like the people think they have to do this when they're really just
"Oh, well." The deeper you go, the stronger it gets instead of the weaker.
It's not only that, science rests upon the foundation of faith. If you do not have faith,
in Christ, you cannot account for the scientific method. You may as well not try that process because
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it doesn't make any sense. Again, you're cheating if you're an unbeliever because you're using a
process and a system that depends upon the regularity of the natural world, cause and effect, the past
resembling the future. All of those things, science makes no sense. That's why the first scientist
were Christians. Yeah, they were all artists, the whole thing. Yeah, they didn't have glory. Because the
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assumption you have to make is if God made this, then He designed it. And if there's a design,
there's a designer. If there's a design, there's systems, there's methods, there's all different
types of mechanisms put into place that have no other explanation apart from this. But if there
isn't, then your eye should just pop out of your head or whatever, at least chaos should
(50:50):
ensue. And this very conversation we're having would make no sense. Right. You ask me a question. And
if we're not operating according to the Christian worldview, the unbeliever says, why do I believe that
the scriptures of the word of God, I could say, Google the God, read Black Green, Pokey, I'm
need to go home. And he can't object to my answer. Yeah. That bananas crazy answer. I just gave
(51:11):
he can't object to on his worldview. Now he'll object to it. But he's objecting to it based on our
worldview. Yeah. Yeah. I mean, the very idea evolution itself, the idea that information assembled
itself to made sense. Yeah. Yeah. No, no. So I hope I've not. Reckless. Yes. I hope I've not taken
the oxygen out of the room because when I get excited about when truth is, you ask me whether I could
(51:35):
be on this podcast. And I thought, well, I need to think about that. Let me push it to January.
And then I look to your question. Like, oh, I talk about stuff all the time. So now I come in and
I dominate your time. No, no, no, no, no, please, I mean, it's so deep and rich that are honestly for
real. I'm not the. I'm not drinking from the fire. I'm just telling you that it's so deep and rich.
(51:57):
I don't believe that you'll be able to turn away that our listeners, how could you turn that off?
I made it so all in and and and beautiful and truthful and hard, but easy. It's just it's it's great.
And I'm I would love to have you back. I'm honored. Yeah, man. So I've two questions. One is you
(52:26):
you asked some two question. One is the how? And I believe for our viewers and his answer was
spending time with God in order to know the creator. You need to spend time with him and you need to read
his word. What was the what was the second? Did you have a second question there? Because I thought
they were. Yeah, it was how can men, but then also like what advice do you have for men who
(52:50):
who want to go deeper into that? Like they want to be able to even find mentors or or mentor
others at the risk of having people contact me. I would love to give out your phone number. No,
but not so much that, but through you. That's what I've done my whole life, right? I talk about the
things that I do for a living and then the things I do because I love to do it. It's as you can tell,
(53:16):
it kind of pours out of me. Yeah. This is this is my heart. This is who I am. Yeah. I feel an
obligation. There are there are ways to do it and suggestions. I'd love to. I'm not the answer to
people's problems. That's why I started with the word, right? And I'm not the answer to it. But to
be honest, it's kind of a lonely journey because I have found a lot of Christian apologists.
(53:40):
What's the word? There's I don't want to undercut the amazing work that many Christians
apologists have done, but I think there's a big gap in the approach because you always get to the
unbeliever who says, well, that's an easy one to answer because I don't accept that you know,
miracles and supernatural are true. We'll figure out an answer for it. And the Christian has no
(54:01):
answer for that who doesn't do it from this worldview versus worldview concept. But you need to find
the I mean, there are there are a few people out there. They they tend to get misunderstood. So I
I hesitate to name them by name because then people will read something about the person rather than
reading what the person is really written. And I'm always a little bit reluctant to to talk about that.
(54:24):
But I believe that it's scriptural. That's why I'm glad you brought up acts and Paul's approach with
the Athens in Athens with the Greeks and the Jews because the Bible is our manual. And I would be
happy to help unearth some of that if somebody has questions. I have a feeling they will. Thank you.
How do they do that? If they if they could contact you, we can forward and forward them to me that way,
(54:50):
I'm able to get through them and then you got it. It's it's not too. One of the reasons I would do it
that way is then I'll be able to select, oh, I'm going to contact this person directly. Some I might
say I can give you really short answer other persons. I might say, you know what, I'm going to open up
a dialogue with it. So email us at dudes@standupdude.com. Okay. Doods@standupdude.com.
(55:13):
So, Gali, did you hit all you said you wanted to hit the ABCD? No, really, no, really. Did you did you do that?
So there's one more thing that you can do. Okay, let me let's hear it. Yeah, so this isn't this isn't
the structural. I think we covered all the structural. Okay. The the other objection that people frequently
(55:38):
give. Yeah. And you see this one online a lot and I roll my eyes and laugh. They say, oh, you Christians,
you believe in this fairy in a sky because you think he makes everything all better. Right? And some
Christians are like, I don't know how to answer that question. Well, first of all, my first answer is
the reason you don't believe in God is because you also are afraid of judgment and you want to try to,
(56:00):
you know, squish that down. So yeah, postpartum to put into some other area of life, right? But the other
answer is if I were really making up a fairy tale God, why would I come up with the God of Scripture?
Why wouldn't I pick Santa Claus? Yeah, Santa Claus is a lot easier, right? Doesn't demand anything of me.
Usually doesn't keep his promises. Like if Santa says you're going to get switches and you're stocking
(56:21):
and then you still get good things anyway. It's like what was that? Yeah. So it's kind of
preposterous to suggest that we believe in this, you know, fairy in a sky. No, no, I wouldn't choose
this God because this God demands my everything and only Jesus Christ can accomplish that everything.
Oh, man, I'm completely dependent upon God. And that's what men don't want to do. Right? Men want to
(56:43):
be the answer. Men want to be a ton of independence. It's the sin from the Garden of Eden. Yeah. Yeah.
And that is powerful stuff. Kevin, I hope we can have you back again. Like you said, we just
scratched the surface on a lot of these questions and there's so much more here. But I truly believe that
apologetics, not for the sake of being smart, knowing arguments, all that kind of stuff is very
(57:09):
critical and you kind of alluded to this earlier that many in the Christian faith don't really have
a great understanding of it. Right. And it's not just because that's where the nerdy Christians go.
It should be something that just like you would if you were married, you know as much as you can
about your spouse because you love them. And we want to know the God who created us. We want to know
(57:33):
Christ. And as Paul said, like to know Christ and preach him and preach him crucified. Like we can't
truly say we love him if we're like, but I don't want to know about you. That's too much. So I'm
convicted in that. I want to see more of that. I believe that is something that the men who are
watching and listening want as well and need. So we will pass on that information as far as if you
(58:00):
reach out to us how you can get a hold of Kevin. And one more thing. Yeah, go for it.
I think in it ties to the beginning when I said we can't cover it all. The other thing is that
the apologetic journey is different depending on the person with whom you're dealing.
Sometimes it can be a two, three, four, five, 10 year process. And it's incremental. Yeah, we
(58:22):
mustn't be impatient with that. Other times a person becomes a believer in a very short time.
Again, that's all in God's timing. And I think our tendency and my tendency, I'll confess,
is to want to tell the person everything I know in that first meeting. Because everything is
interconnected. I'm like, oh, I can't do it because I get anxious. I think, well, maybe they'll walk
(58:42):
away and I'll never have another shot at speaking with them again. But then that's just me not trusting
that no God has this person on journey. I was to give them that little nugget. And if they never
come back, then that was the only nugget I was supposed to have that dialogue. So don't, my
encouragement to your audience would be don't feel the burden or the pressure to have to get it all
done at once because that's where relational people and relationships don't happen that quickly.
(59:05):
Yeah, I appreciate it. Go ahead. Yeah, I was going to say for those that
have resonated and probably hated part of what you've said. Also couldn't help but love it because
the truth spoke to their heart and balanced with you can't do it all at once. Like you just said,
(59:26):
for those though that have been touched and they want to take at least that first step,
we have ways where they can do that on our site. But would you help the ones that are still listening
that want to just like I want to at least take that first step of knowing Jesus, of knowing my creator,
(59:50):
calling him king and the boss of my life today. So you're going to make me cry like this.
Would you cry or so don't do so. So am I. So would you take them those there that are leaning on that
door right now? Yeah, again, we have to go to the scriptures. Jesus says that he is,
(01:00:15):
when you talk about the door, he says, I am the door, right? I'm the way, the truth, the life, I'm the door.
And by the way, that's not a physical door he's talking about, right? He's talking figuratively.
If a Christian is looking for where do I start because the Bible is big and sometimes scary for
someone who's not a believer, right? Book of John is always a fantastic place to start because it's
(01:00:41):
very historical nature. It ties it back to creation because in the beginning was the word and the word
was with God and the word was God. It's pretty true. All things were made without him, nothing was made
that has been made. In him was life and that life is the light of all mankind. The importance of that
(01:01:02):
apologetically, which is part of our, part of our gospel message because if you don't know who God is,
just like the Greeks and the Jews and Athens, you can't worship a God you don't know in truth.
That a lot of people boil that down to thinking in their lives, oh yeah, God,
God created all physical things that I see. He created people, he created mountains and streams.
(01:01:27):
No, God creates all events, God's in charge of everything. It doesn't say God just created the
empirical tangible things that you see. God is in charge of all events. That means whether you've
had terrible events or good events, the worst thing a pastor can say when someone loses a loved one
and a pastor goes to the hospital and performs the hard work, the worst thing a pastor can say is,
(01:01:50):
well God didn't intend for this to happen. Because then what are you saying about God that there's
some things outside of God's sovereign control? No, the proper answer is we don't know why God would
allow this to happen. But what we do know is that God is sovereignly in control of all of this.
Yeah. Maybe cry. Go ahead. But we know from Scripture too that all things work together for good.
(01:02:19):
I mean Romans 8, 28. That's the answer that we need to give to people who are suffering,
not that God couldn't have known or intended for this. It's that no. We don't understand God.
Remember Isaiah 558 says, God's thoughts are higher than our thoughts, right? Neither are our ways,
God's ways. So for us to think that we understand or that we have to understand all of it, no.
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But God makes clear enough everything we need to know for our salvation. He reveals to us. He
softens our hearts so that we might believe, right? Even that faith is given to us by God.
So if God is calling a person who's listening to this, the hound of heaven will not be denied.
If he's called you, he will achieve his destiny. Amen.
Amen. So any answer your question? Yeah. Yes. If you guys would like to take that first step with us,
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you can go to standupdo.com and you'll see the flow. It's very easy to find.
And we will tell you the gospel again as you've heard it today. And you can make a decision to follow him.
And you will be given four or five or six opportunities to select different growth paths.
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And we ask that you would take that step right now. Let me pray for you. Lord Jesus, for those that
have been touched, Jesus asked that they couldn't be stopped, Lord, from making a decision to follow you,
to trust you. God, just to deny the old man and begin to step now into the new man, Lord,
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of the Holy Spirit in their life. Lord, may you give them a new walk, new words, new life.
And so we praise you, Lord, in Jesus' name. And thank you for the incredible defense and
apologetics and the hermeneutics and the epistemology, the entire defense, Lord Jesus,
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of the faith that was offered here, that truth was lifted up. And God, I just thank you for
the work of this man. I thank you for the blessing, Jesus, of the Holy Spirit.
I said to you, continue to touch this podcast to reach many Lord that you're calling and bringing
them to you. Lord, in Jesus' name, I pray in Jesus' name. Amen. Amen. Amen.
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Amen. Kevin, thank you for being here with us. Oh, thanks for having me. We'll definitely have you.
Talk from my heart. Have you again. Thanks again, guys, for watching. This has been Stand Up Dude
Podcast. You can tune in next time where we will tackle subjects that relate to men. And
you can find more out on our website, www.StandupDude.com. And if you go to www.StandupDude.com/podcast,
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you can listen to more episodes. And there's a little tab there that you can click that will allow you
to leave us a voice message. If we find it interesting and you would like it to be on the show, we will
feature it in a future episode. Do it. So love you guys. Thank you. And tune in next time.
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