A conversation with PDS Ninja Alan Keane - PBNO 9 - The Talent Equation Podcast

Episode Transcript
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Speaker 1 (00:00):
Hi everyone, Stewart here before we get into today's podcast,
I wonder if I can ask you to do me
a favor. I'm hoping that I can get the podcast
to grow to a wider audience. But further it goes,
the more people that it can impact. I often get
letters of messages on social media from many of the
listeners who often talk to me about the impact it's
had on them and the people that they work with.
Sometimes that impact goes as far as family members and

(00:23):
relationships that you hold. I'm hoping that I can get
that message out call wider audience.

Speaker 2 (00:27):
Now.

Speaker 1 (00:27):
Obviously, the more people that listen, the more impact the
show can have, but also the more people that subscribe
and download, then that helps me to invest in the
show and put out more content. As you know, my
podcasting of late's been a little bit sporadic, say the least,
and that's partly due to the fact that I've just
been struggling with capacity. Now I'm hoping to be able
to enlist some help so that I can improve the
quality and improve the amount of podcasts I put out there.

(00:49):
But I can only do that with your help. To
please share it far and wide, you know, use social
media if you want to use your networks through WhatsApp
or other messaging channels that you use, or even if
you're face to pay with people, conferences, seminars, those sorts
of places, let them know about it, encourage them to
sign up and listen. Now, I've got loads of ideas
for a new ways to take the show. I want
to bring on new co hosts other than the world

(01:10):
famous Flow the Dog. I want to do some live
streamed episodes that people can interact with and do Q
and as live Q and a's, and I'm also thinking
about doing live podcasts from conferences as well as bringing
on some big name guests. But I can only do
that with your support. Every single subscription is a massive benefit. Now,
if you want to go a bit further than that,
then there is a Patreon page, and if you go

(01:30):
to the Patreon page, there's opportunities for you to buy
me the equivalent of a cup of coffee. If you're
are to do then that's amazing and that's massively supportive,
but it's not essential. The main thing is if you
could just take the time to share it on your
social media channels or share the episode with somebody that
you know and if you find some value in it,
then pass it on to others and pay it forward.
And if you can do that, I'd be enormously grateful.

(01:53):
Thanks in advance via support.

Speaker 3 (01:56):
Welcome to the Town and Equation podcast. If you are
passionate about helping young people join leash their potential and
want to find ways to do that better, then you've
come to the right place. The Talent Equation podcast seeks
to answer the important questions facing parents, coaches, and talent

(02:16):
developers as they try to help young people become the
best they can be. This is a series of unscripted,
unpolished conversations between people at the razor's edge of the
talent community who are prepared to share their knowledge, experiences
and challenges in an effort to help others get better faster. Listen, reflect,

(02:38):
and don't forget to join the discussion at the Talent
Equation dot co dot UK.

Speaker 4 (02:44):
Enjoy the show, well, welcome again.

Speaker 5 (02:58):
This could be an episode with no Stuart hasn't changed
his hair style. It could be with Stuart arriving, or
it could just be Alan Keene and myself. So welcome Alan.
First guest of the performances of behavior on an outcome
interestingly low. Obviously you were mentioned on the previous episode
because it was you that requested the discussion about the

(03:20):
ecodynamics and how it sits within you know, the Mark
Bennett madness, so to speak.

Speaker 2 (03:25):
So welcome, Thank you, Mark, much appreciated. You've actually, God,
you've set the bar pretty low with the first one
putting me on as a guest. I can think of
a hundred other people you'd have got a lot more
value from. But let's crack on anyway. But I have
to say before we go, it's very enjoyable listening to
you too, because I know yourself and Stuart very well.

(03:46):
I've had the privilege of you supporting my coaching growth
for many years, and Stuart's an incredibly knowledgeable guy. I
couldn't think of two people I'd listened to on a
Monday morning Tuesday morning walking the dogs. So thanks for
what you guys are doing with sharing this podcast. It's
been very rich, so fur thanks. Alan.

Speaker 5 (04:04):
It's always that case of getting it out there so
people can just recognize, actually it's not you need to
do it this way. It's just thoughtfulness in variables and
behaviors and leisure and performance in business and sport and
more what that looks like in a texture base more
than the pine in the sky chats that we often

(04:24):
hear on podcasts, which is going, yeah, what's it look
like in my world? Is we want to share what
the world looks like. And that's why you're a great guest.

Speaker 2 (04:31):
Alan.

Speaker 5 (04:33):
What did you take from that last episode because I
know it was through you requesting to Stuart that we
had a discussion about ecodynamics and how it fits in
PDS needs centered. Obviously, you're someone that you know, I've
known for years and I was lucky enough to support
you many years ago to from your beginnings in that

(04:53):
journey of exploration and to who you are today. Is
you work and correct me if I'm wrong than anything.
So you work in a competitive performance environment within basketball,
within your coaching, within seasons and in caps, and you've
been doing that. How how long have you been doing that?
Actually either an assistant coach or a head coach within

(05:17):
league and obviously the international teams that you work with.

Speaker 2 (05:22):
Yeah, wow, you're taking me back. Mark two thousand and
nine would have been my first year involved with the
national team, and I've been with the national team at
various age groups right through to the senior level at
the Commonwealth Games in twenty eighteen. Since two thousand and nine,
there's coming somewhere. I'll be working with the Great Britain
under twenty teams at the European Championship. So all in all,
I think, you know, minus Covid, I probably coached fifteen

(05:43):
European Championships from under sixteen right through to under twenty
and had a couple of World Cup qualifying winners with
the senior gb team and then the Commonweld Games with
the England senior national team. Prior to that, I've been
coaching mat I mean, someone asked me Mark, how long've
been coaching? I don't know. I feel like it just emerged,
and it probably emerged when I was a teenager. I

(06:04):
look back on certain moments when I was, you know,
in high school and taking on younger teams as a
high school student, myself helping out the be teacher. So
how long I've been coaching, I don't know, but I
do I'm very clear on how long I've been coaching
more with more intentionality. That's very clear to me. And
you know you were pretty much part of that journey.
You were part of that ignition. And I want to

(06:25):
pick up one thing you said, there are moments ago
you were supporting me. You know, quite a few years ago.
You actually still support me today, You're just not as
present the podcasts I listened to. I'll go back and
listen to audio recordings between you and I that we
shared in yately Manor High School twenty thirteen, Coaching the
England and the sixteen because there's some fundamental principles there

(06:48):
that will never leave my coaching mark. So even though
we're not currently working together, you're still mentoring me informally
without knowingnut. But going back to the podcast that you
and Stuart did, you asked to answer your question about ecodynamics.
I found it fascinating. I find all your recordings fascinating
because you guys asked the questions and you have the
conversations that not many people are asking or having. And

(07:11):
what gripped me from that episode was there wasn't there
wasn't necessarily a lack of alignment, but you could argue
there wasn't an alignment with thought and ideas around it,
and there was a sharing and an acceptance of what
was being shared as well. But we can dig into
that a little bit more as we go, but definitely
captivating for all the right reasons.

Speaker 5 (07:30):
Well, welcome, Stewart. We basically Alan has just shared his
little the many decades because he's no longer twenty one
with his involved in basketball and coaching, and I just
we just initiated the conversation about the last episode that
Alan requested you, Stuart to have that as a subject

(07:51):
in one of the episodes. So it was just now
reflecting on what he took from that conversation from his
point of view as an active coach, and we haven't
we haven't got into that yet, but that's where we are.

Speaker 6 (08:04):
Sorry for sorry to be delayed.

Speaker 1 (08:05):
I was I was actually just supporting a member of
staff using all of my PDS skills who they're having
a real difficult time with a couple of bits and
pieces related to the workplace. So it was really appropriate
for me to dive out. But I hope you appreciate
that I needed to probably prioritize that in the first instance.

Speaker 5 (08:25):
I will say, Alan, the last bit you've just said that,
I'm gonna look at that because there's a little sentage
put in there that could could be our promotional for
the whole chapters there and about you know, what is
it we do in that? And I think what's really refreshing,
and no doubt what happened during this conversation is that

(08:46):
Stewart and I can happily disagree because we've got a
long enough relationship where we don't have to tread carefully
as a guest as sometimes you might have to with
a podcast guest. In these conversations, we can actually just
get stuck into it. And I think we've got enough experience.
And this is why this is going to be so frustrating,
is real world examples of what ideals do not work

(09:08):
in reality and what fundamentals do. But how difficult it
is to embed that within your own coaching behavior in
live judgment in order to impact on the athletes, and
how tough that is, which I would say, out of
all the people I've mentored over the decades, you're definitely
in the top five allan of people that will take

(09:28):
feedback direct and reflect on it without barrier and look
at it. Because you are a spane you use it
all the time within your conversations where you steal things,
but I don't see it as stealing things I see
it as you enhancing yourself by the interpretation of the
experiences or the data you see here and learn for yourself.

(09:49):
But that's what growth mindset should be. That's what great
coaching should be. So it was always easy to mentor
you because I could be direct and you're always asking
enough specific questions. After the first year, the detail of
your inquisitiveness made it easy for me to provide you
with solutions or go well, hang on, let's look at

(10:09):
these options, or have you thought about this? So you're
quite easy to mentor Alan because of the person you are,
which is easy. But again, sometimes I quite like mentoring
people that aren't as joyous and easy to mentor as you,
because I need to continue my skills as well as
a mentor. And if I get if every person is

(10:31):
Alan Keen, I'm not developing my craft. And that leads
into you as a coach. Is If you had every
athlete that turned up growth mindset live this performance, attitude
and behaviors every single time, you wouldn't have to do
much coaching, would you. It would be back to the
technical tactical. Your craft is coaching the light and shade

(10:51):
in between, right.

Speaker 2 (10:54):
Yeah, you know there's a lot being said there, Mark,
but I'm going to go back to something you said
in the first ten seconds of that is what I
like about your podcast, So you and Stuart, you guys,
it's very ecological dynamics based if you think about it,
because you're talking about reality. You're not fabricating stuff, you're

(11:15):
not prescribing stuff. Mark. You have an opinion, Stewart has
an opinion, and you discuss and share the disparity between that.
That's what I really liked about the last podcast. I
didn't leave that podcast going, ah, this is the way
to do it. It actually left me thinking. It actually
left me more questions than answers if that was new
to me. And that's a good space to be. And

(11:36):
as a coach, you know, Simon and I my colleague,
we asked the question a lot. Have you got one
year's experience or two years experience or one year's experience
repeated twenty times, and that can become compliancy. What I
enjoy about your discussions are there's a lot of disparity
sometimes between what you say, but there's an acceptance of
what each other's thoughts are and then there's a rich

(11:58):
discussion off the back of it. But Mark, you're right.
If every player came through the door and there was
no challenge associated with that, I wouldn't be in coaching.
If there was one way to do this and that
was the only way, every single time, I wouldn't be
a coach. I'd find something else that challenged me, that
stimulated me, that offered me the challenges that coaching offers me,

(12:19):
which is why I love it and why I've taken
so many different opportunities that have been challenging for you
to be on the court with me, Mark looking over
my shoulder and year one was challenging, but I embraced
it because I liked it. I could see the benefit.

Speaker 5 (12:33):
You know.

Speaker 2 (12:33):
I got Simon Turner breeding Downmineck asking me the most
diverse range of questions anyone could ask somebody. And it
drives me insane, but I love it, and I'm driving
home trying to figure it out, and I'm waking up
the next day and I'm trying to figure it out.
So if we found a solution to coaching. When we
find the solution, I'm out. I'll go find something else
to do. So again, your conversations are very rich with that,

(12:57):
I love listening to you two guys each week, do more?
You guys should be doing more.

Speaker 5 (13:02):
I've got two points from that. Then I'm gonna be
a bit more quiet and let's do it. Throw his
inquisitiveness at you.

Speaker 6 (13:10):
Or with you?

Speaker 1 (13:11):
Uh?

Speaker 5 (13:12):
Two points. I know a lot of people do at
the end, but I think it's really important to do
this at the beginning. Is could you share your relationship
with Simon and the business that you've put together that
you're working for.

Speaker 6 (13:21):
Sure?

Speaker 2 (13:21):
Sure, sure, Simon Simon Turner in full name. You know,
he created Movement Sports, you know, but he brought me
and he offered me an opportunity to come on board.
We co owned the company and effectively, Mark just SIMP
in its most simplistic form. We are two coaches trying

(13:42):
to help other coaches, is what we're trying to do.
And we're offering other coaches the opportunity to to be
in a space where you will ask yourself, what do
you do, why do you do it? And is there
a better way to do it? And then and then
exploring that space. We're now starting to in the past

(14:03):
couple of years, we're started to move towards working federations
we're doing a wonderful project with Basketball Learning for the
past two years. It's called the One Seed Over Project,
and it's just for female coaches only who may not
who may have felt they didn't have a voice in
the room when it came to you know, progression and
coaching and opportunities. And then we're doing other stuff with
members around the world from US high schools, US colleges.

(14:25):
We're doing a membership where we just support their journey,
and their journey is very diverse. The rage is so wide.
But I want to say this mark. We're not coming
at coaches or people or organizations saying we have the answers.
What we are saying is we have deeper rooted questions
that you may not have been asked before, and we
create spaces where where it's messy and city and we

(14:46):
sit in the mud and we try to find our
way out and probe and support each other. So, in
simplistic terms, we're two coaches who've gone on a journey,
have been supported by people like yourself and others who've
learned from our experience to reflect of practice, and we're
offering that space to coaches who may not have dipped
their toe the water of that space, and that's where

(15:07):
it's it's where real growth has taking place. Every time
I work with a coach, Mark and Stuart, I don't
know how you feel about this, but every time I
work with a new coach, I get a lot out
of it myself. There's a lot of learning that I
get back from that process because it's again, you're back
to the challenge. You know that everyone has different challenges,
which is why there's no absolutes. I feel as much

(15:29):
as I am, and we'll get into it. I guess
as much as I'm an eco dynamic advocate, I don't
think there is any absolutes. And I'm going to pause
there because I'm sure that might take us in a direction.
Stuart's already smiling. I know, I know I'm in trouble.

Speaker 5 (15:44):
Well, I think that's That was the second point out
the two before I be more quiet? Is what was
your raw takeaway from that last episode that you initiated
through repressing.

Speaker 2 (15:56):
Well, actually, my raw takeaway Mark was much as I
enjoyed the ecodynamics conversation, and you know you're both your
views and that the thing that from memory, the thing
that had most gravity with me was you discussing pre agreements.
Would you guys had a wonderful conversation about Warren Gatling
and that interview he did was incredible, really rich. Every

(16:17):
coach would listened to. It was a less than humbleness
and honestly with self. But you spoke a lot in
that that episode around forming alignment with an understanding. It
shared understanding as to what the objectives were going forward,
whether it's performance directors, whether it's club owners, whether it's

(16:39):
a business manager, whether it's a head teacher, Like what
does success look like? And is everybody clear on that?
That for me was had the biggest gravity because the
other stuff, I'm probably listening to it a lot, and
I'm and I'm immersed in it a lot. That took
me back and that was a good reminder for me, actually, Mark,
even though I think I do it without thinking about
it now, I'm probably in that space because you've influenced

(17:01):
me a lot down through the years and I think
I do it naturally. But it's a good reminder just
in case, you know, I don't remember to do that
with the next adventure I go on, for example. So
that had the biggest gravity for being honest.

Speaker 5 (17:13):
I still remember that first coaching session we had Alan.

Speaker 2 (17:17):
I do too, Mark, I do too, because it was
all new to me and I thought, this guy is
just too much. He's intense, this is incredible. But I
could see, I could you could feel the richness of like,
I'm going to go on a journey here with this
guy and you know it's it's going to be supportive.
But yeah, I remember it well. To Mark in Lampton

(17:38):
High School in West London.

Speaker 5 (17:41):
Yes, yes, over to you Stewart. I don't know if
you want him to share that story or move on
to something different.

Speaker 6 (17:49):
We might circle back to it.

Speaker 1 (17:52):
The uh yeah, just so just a couple of thoughts really,
and we'll probably circle this because this would add it's
an interesting one. I want to definitely come back to
Simon and I met yesterday. I don't know whether we've
got you've had a chance to talk to him about that. Alan,
we got together on zoom just because you know, I

(18:13):
reached out to him following that. I mean, I don't
know if you guys, while I was aware you were
talking about that amazing clip that you guys shared of
Simon essentially kind of questioning you Alan around your state
and bringing you back to where you got to have
you guys covered that before I got here, No, because

(18:35):
the one thing I said to him yesterday was like
I I was blown away by that because I for me,
it said so much about and I know I sort
of commented on it a little bit, but I probably
didn't give it justice.

Speaker 6 (18:49):
I didn't have time.

Speaker 1 (18:50):
But it said so much about you as a practitioner,
as a head coach, and how your drive for excellence
is so so on display where you know, you'd clearly
created a dynamic with your assistant coach, which is and

(19:12):
I know lots of assistant coaches who basically are there
to you know, carry the bibs and the balls and
the cones and do all the other stuff that their
head coach doesn't want to do. But you, your relationship
is very different, clearly, and you've clearly spent time in
a pre agreement type sense of talking about what your

(19:32):
relationship ought to be and to see an assistant coach
you know essentially you know, put that point of challenge
into you and you to sort of take it on
board so kind of you know, readily and recognizing that
you needed to reset and or you know, and all
those sorts of things. I just thought to myself, I

(19:56):
don't think I've ever seen that before. I might have
seen it live a couple of times, maybe I can't
remember it. If I have, I've never seen it put
out in public in a social media space like that,
and it probably happens, but I don't think I've ever
seen it. And I don't know whether it's because head
coaches generally speaking, don't like being that vulnerable or whatever

(20:17):
it is. But for me, there was so it was
such a rick what is it? You know, thirty seconds
a minute clip, but it was so rich in talking
about that interaction between two coaches and clarity of roles
and the power that an assistant coach can have for
a head coach. So I wanted to maybe just start
there before we sort of rip off into some other spaces.

Speaker 5 (20:39):
Sure.

Speaker 2 (20:39):
Well, for me, it's very easy sture because I've entered
a space, the coaching space, with the desire to be
the best coach I can possibly be. I don't care
the level I've got to a stage in my career.
I don't care if I'm an NBA coach, if I
never make it to an NBA coach, if I'm a
British coach, at national team coach, at club coach in Scotland.

(21:00):
That drive for like you know, highest level high For me,
the highest level is the guys I'm coaching in front
of me right now today, and I approach that no
different So the club team I coach in Scotland, only
two of those guys are getting paid. I approach that
the same way as I approach the national team in
the summer at the European Championship where winning really matters

(21:22):
because of funding and right and rankings and everything else.
Because at the core of me, Stuart is I'm trying
to be the best coach I can possibly be and
I can't do this alone. And any coach who thinks
they can't do it alone is probably suffering in silence.
And I don't want to go down the rabbit hole
judging others, but I can't do this alone. So and

(21:42):
Mark Bennett's breathing over my shoulder, and I'm conscious of
what he's thinking about me, and I'm trying to whether,
whether I admit it or not, I'm trying to impress
him with a practice plan in my delivery, or whether
Simon Turner tells me at halftime in the game, or
asks me, are you at coaching the way you want
to coach right now? Or if a player challenges me,

(22:03):
I'm all in. Give me as much as you want,
because if it's going to help me be better in
the next moment I'm coaching, then I'm gonna I'm letting
it in now. I'm human just like everybody else. So
if there is a judgment being made, then you know
I'm not absolved from feeling a way about these judgments.
I just see the value and the benefit of allowing others.

(22:26):
And I don't believe, Stuart. I strongly believe that no
coach should work alone. And I think a lot of
coaches are working in isolation. And I want to talk.
I'll expand on that if you don't mind, and I'm talking.
I'm not talking about coaches who are just the coach.
There's no assistance, there's no TM, there's no there's no
sports science. I've worked with and been around coaches who've

(22:48):
had a wide range of support staff. And I use
the word support lightly, but that head coach has worked
in isolation. I've been an assistant coach in the performance
the main where the head coach has worked in isolation,
and that's by choice. And I feel sorry for that
coach because you're effectively getting in the way of your
own growth, your own learning, your own development. Yet they're

(23:09):
fighting to the nail to be the best coach they
can be. It's like a swimmer who doesn't know how
to swim it. Effectively, you're just fighting the water when
there's an easier way to do it if you allowed
somebody to show you. So for me at this stage,
Stuart's very easy to allow Simon to do that, whether
we agree it, pre agreed, not agree it. I would
listen you know now who you listen to. Obviously, there's

(23:32):
there's judgments to be made there who you're going to
listen to. So obviously, at a certain level of relationships
important then perceive the value for sure. But yeah, it's
not difficult. I don't find that difficult. I welcome it.
I need it. I think I actually need it. If
I'm being honest, I think I need it.

Speaker 6 (23:49):
Yeah, I mean interestingly I am. Yeah, and that comes true.

Speaker 1 (23:55):
You know you could see how much you valued it
whilst it was you know, you could see actually in
the particular, you can see that you know that there's
that moment of realization and that kind of that little
minute microsecond of real of sort of reappraial happening.

Speaker 6 (24:11):
But then there also then that second moment of their of.

Speaker 1 (24:15):
Going, oh man, that's so valuable, and then almost that
that moment of appreciation and that moment of But but
I guess the bit the comment for me about it
was how that is to see? I mean, I, like
I said, I don't think I've ever seen that kind
of relationship in action, and I've seen seen a few

(24:36):
of these environments and I don't but you never see
it publicly. And I think again, you know, there's a
part of me that wishes the coaching world would be
more open with sharing their craft, if you like, and
you know, kind of the engage.

Speaker 6 (24:50):
As far as that's concerned.

Speaker 2 (24:52):
Why do you think that is? Stuart? Can I ask
you why you think that is? That coaches are not
and not necessarily publicly putting it out there. But we
I think three of us have worked with enough coaches
to know that there is a resistance to allowing others
to influence and allow people in to support their head coach.
I'm talking about their head coach in particular, that person

(25:14):
has a source of power because of that title and
so on. Why do you think that is?

Speaker 1 (25:18):
I don't know, And I've reflected on this for a
long time because I remember distinctly when I was part
of the Talent Pathway coaching community within in gb Hockey,
and I was running one of their talent academies, and
you know, it's sort of first time I'd really had
a role like that. I'm really kind of keen. I

(25:42):
was very excited about about it, not just because of
the fact that I was working, you know, with some
of the some of the better players in the country,
but partly because I knew I was going to be
amongst the community people we could learn from each other.
And I remember distinctly and at one time we were
all going to get together. We'd all traveled over the
country to be together, and we were given sort of
a task prior to the arrival where we would do

(26:06):
a short presentation on an aspect of our craft or
our philosophy and share it with others and have that
almost peer review moment. And on the day and I've
spent time preparing it and putting it together, and on
the day.

Speaker 6 (26:22):
We're told that we weren't going to do that.

Speaker 1 (26:24):
Exercise because a few people felt really uncomfortable sharing in
that way.

Speaker 6 (26:29):
I remember being like.

Speaker 1 (26:29):
Really crestfall and disappointed that we were all not getting
the opportunity. I mean, some people could opt out if
they were if they wanted to, but it didn't mean
the rest of us, who you know, couldn't get the
opportunity to learn from our peers. But I noticed that
coaches seem reluctant to engage with their peers, and they

(26:49):
seem reluctant to receive feedback, whether it's positive. Well, I
think they were always were quite happy to get positive
but reluctant to get critical feed back or something where
someone's pointing out something that they may not be aware of.
And this applies when you're a coach developer as well.
I think the coach development mark spoken about coach development

(27:11):
and coach development community seems.

Speaker 6 (27:15):
I don't know.

Speaker 1 (27:15):
Sometimes it seems like it's afraid to or those who
deploy coach developers seem afraid for those coach developers to
be direct and to be clear and to you know,
engage in that way, you know, and all that sort
of stuff. It's almost like you've got to be very

(27:36):
very soft around the edges for fear of you know,
the coach feeling threatened or destabilized or something along those lines.
And my view is I always think a mark of professional,
a professional or someone in high performances, they know, similar
to you, they're thirsty, they're hungry for information and they're
going to get it from any source they can. And

(27:56):
in the high performance environment as well, you know, you
really want that kind of that kind of sort of
robust challenge. And if I'm totally honest with you, my
suspicion is, and this is the that I had with
conversation I had with Phil Kearney or Cartfield Carney from
Limerick University, which is that so many coaches, I think

(28:18):
are operating from what he referred to as a bundle
of beliefs, and those beliefs aren't necessarily that stable. And
I think very few coaches have a really strong stable
basis upon which to.

Speaker 6 (28:36):
You know, sort of build their craft, you know.

Speaker 1 (28:38):
And I feel fortunate that, you know, I've had the
opportunity like you to work with Mark, which has given
my craft much much more stability. So if I'm ever
challenged or I'm ever critiqued, and I have been. I've
got a very stronger rationale for my practice and my
craft and the basis of my craft, and I don't

(28:59):
think everybody else has that. I think it's more fragile,
and as a result of that, I think they feel
more vulnerable and more you know, they feel probably more
challenged by critique, and therefore it's that's one of the
reasons why I think maybe they're less willing to you know,
when you say I'm working in isolation, they're walling themselves

(29:21):
off from the possibility of that kind of critique.

Speaker 6 (29:24):
I don't know, it's just a speculation, but that's just my.

Speaker 2 (29:29):
I'll just add one more pointed from a personal perspective,
Like you know, we're always looking for competitive advantages when
you coach teams and players. We're trying to find ways
to win the game, to be the best we can
be fulfilled potential competitive advantages. So what's my competitive advantage?
If learning is not my competitive advantage as a coach

(29:50):
when I'm going up against other coaches in from other
countries Serbia, Spain, wherever, local teams when we're playing week in,
week out, I if what's my competitive advantage because I'm
a competitor. As a coach, I'm a competitor work. I'm
competing with the players. We are competing together. We're helping
each other. They're helping me as much as I'm helping them.

(30:12):
So for me, I see learning as my competitive advantage,
whereas some of the players I coach will see their
skill set, their shooting ability, their aleticism could be their
competitive advantage. So going back taking a strengths based approach,
I'm very clear what my strengths are. My strengths are.
I'm a learner, and I want and I'm a sponge
like Mark described me a month ago, and I want

(30:32):
to keep I want to double down on my strengths.
I don't know my weaknesses are. Like often get asked
when I go on these courses, and let's not be arrogant.
Please don't see this as arrogance. I just want to
put that out there. But I get asked a lot
when I go on these courts courses. Now that I've
been coaching X amount of time, Oh, what you want
to focus on? What you want to improve upon? And

(30:53):
I struggle to say what I want to get better?
And I can tell you very clearly what I want
to double down on my strengths are. I can tell
you what strengths are and how I want to get
them even stronger. It was a wonderful saying, Stuart Mark,
that a player said to me years ago, I'll never
forget it and actually came over from Australia played with
a club team, and he said, make your strengths so
strong that they forgive your weakness. Make your strengths so

(31:16):
strong that they forgive you for your weaknesses. And I
think that's a wonderful perspective on how I feel about,
you know, taking a strength based approach to what we do,
including myself in with my coaching, and my strength is
I'm a continuous learner and I want to keep building
that Mark, go for it.

Speaker 5 (31:34):
Well, there's a few elements there going back to that
first question, but starting with a reply to what you've
just said there is you're you're in a position now
where you've had so many years of you challenging yourself
within you know, am I doing this right? Am I
doing this wrong? How do I need to get better?

(31:54):
What are they doing that's become natural to you now
and so your perspective on having someone to support and
challenge you. That is more objective, less emotionally involved. If
you like within winning and losing is an enhancement, is
an edge. Now, that's a perspective different many head coaches
won't have. I've had to challenge why that is the

(32:17):
element you asked, Stuart, and if I was to use
some c's, and it's a combination of these culture, confidence
and credibility with ego and that those together are where
I see the barriers, because you're absolutely right, Stuart, and
in not seeing that often is one of the work

(32:40):
on I pretty much, maybe apart from once or twice
when I've gone into organizations, is getting the assistant coaches
to be confident enough to disagree with a head coach
at those times to provide solutions whether the head coach
is not seeing it in those moments, and doing it
when it's needed in the heat to the moments, not

(33:01):
just when coach is in a good mood, and building
a level of acceptance within the coaches and say actually,
if you are confident in what you do, then open
your door to the feedback of your assistant coaches. Now,
where the credibility comes in is that head coach needs
to see credibility in the person that's providing the information.
Because there's no credibility, then they're less likely to under

(33:23):
the pressure moments to absorb it in the way we
need to and not just dismiss it. But we're going
back to that culture point of culture is one of
those abuse words so often. I know we've mentioned other
episodes that people just throw it out there, but the
reality is culture is behaviors. Well, it's not just behaviors
of the athletes. It's behaviors. And it's not just coach
to athletes, it's it's athlete to coach, and coach to

(33:44):
coach and manager. Even a cleaner that's you know, cleaning
the clothing, whatever it may be. Is have we got
an environment now where actually I have credibility or what
you work, I'm going out my way if I'm a
new head coach to find out about you, find out

(34:05):
about your strengths, how you see the world, and if
you're seeing it different than me in a conflict way,
then let's align. If you're seeing it different to me
from a different angle, let's keep hold of that because
that's what I need. And then let's build a dialogue
in practice where I, as a head coach when I'm struggling,
will open the door to the assistant coaches. So now

(34:26):
they go, oh, you're inviting me for an opinion in
these tough moments. Okay, now I'm going to give it,
because if you don't open that door, head coach, I
can see you now getting wound up, noid, frustrated, or
making poor judgment now because you're an emotional state, whatever
it may be. There's no way I'm going to challenge
you right now, coach. And I've seen too often where
that is become the norm. Now you think about it

(34:48):
as well, how many years has that head coach been
an assistant coach or a player? Often and all they've
known as a head coach is a head coach must
have the answers. The assistant coach should never challenge a
head coach and whisper in the ear because that's a
sign of disrespect. So that's the paradigm shift. And no, no, no, no.
If we're a team, what does a team need to

(35:08):
do to be successful and effective? What are our roles
or our permissions? But have we cultivated an environment where
when we we do that at that time without fear
knowing actually this is the right time to do it,
not I know I should do it. I know when
you're in a good mood, head coach, you've told me
I could, But there's no way I'm going to do
it now because I know your reaction is going to
be and it's not going to be a good one,

(35:29):
So I won't honor my part of the agreement. And
for me, that's where I think those seeds fit together.

Speaker 2 (35:37):
I think that it's really interesting Mark talking about cultivating
an environment. You know, if you start, I'm very biased, guys,
and I'll be very open and honest the market institut,
you'll know a market and aligned to the needs centered approach.
I think a person centered approach to what we do.
And if you're truly taking a person centered approach to
what we do, it's not just the players. If you're
a team coach. I'm speaking about players because our coaching

(35:59):
teams obviously, but the same with the crossholl range of sports.
But if you're putting the person at the center of
what you're going to do, then you need to do
a bit of work you need to do. And by
the way, sorry, before I get into what I think
needs to be done. As a head coach, that also
includes your support staff. It's not just the players. It
also includes your assistant coaches, your physio or your team manager,

(36:22):
your S and C, your performance director. All right there,
we're all We're all influencers on these players who are
going to perform. So if we're taking a person centered
approach or a needs centered approach with what we're going
to do, then how do you do you go about
and if you do, then how you do it Understanding
the needs and the motivations of these people. So understanding

(36:45):
the needs and motivations of your players critically important. Otherwise
you're just the paysetter. Otherwise you're just going to go
down and your because even at the club level pro level,
like the pro teams I've been with have been have
been made up of rookie twenty two year old players
who've come out of college and still living the life
of a sixteen year old in many ways. And on

(37:07):
the same team, you've got a thirty two year old
who's got three kids and you know, and has all
the life responsibilities that we have even at our age,
for example. So you've got two very different people in
terms of life demands in your team, in your environment,
and if you don't take time to understand their motivations,

(37:28):
their needs, their challenges, then there's a strong possibility you're
not going to get the best out of them, which
your coaching method or your way of coaching. Now, if
we take the same principle, same concept and apply to
the assistant coach, which you've been talking about, Mark as
a head coach, do we clearly know and understand and
have done some work to get that information and data

(37:50):
around what are the needs and motivations of our assistant coaches?
Because if we do that, we will take a different
approach to how we cultivate the environment. That's a true
needs centered approach, that's a true person sent to the approach.
And to do that, you have there's a concept in
caring coaching called motivational displacement. Colin Cronin, who you probably

(38:10):
both know very well, one of the tenants of care
and coaching, there's three, there's four main ones. One of
them is motivational displacement. It means you, basically, as a coach,
displace leave your motivations behind for what you're doing, and
you serve the needs and the motivations of the people
in front of you. I think that's a great place

(38:32):
to start, whether you're a pro colle Now there'll be
pro coaches listening to this thing and that's absolutely rubbish,
and I get it, I understand, but I would challenge
them to say, let's dig a bit deeper into that
space before you cast some judgment, and you might find
that actually, this could be a very useful direction to go. Now,
there's a lot in there, Mark, I can see you're

(38:53):
ready to respond to that, so I'll pause there.

Speaker 5 (38:57):
Well, there is, there's probably two hours worth just in
great text you said there.

Speaker 2 (39:01):
I'd say, well, there won't be two hours because I've
missed my train.

Speaker 5 (39:05):
Yeah. So going backwards and your what you've said starting
with the last point than working to the first point.
The last point you said there is where you say
some coaches may disagree. They disagree because they missed the
key word you said in there. You didn't say the
athletes once you said the athletes needs. Now, what often
we don't spend time is getting athletes to understand the

(39:28):
difference between their wants and their needs aligned to the
need centered approach, aligned to person and player within role,
within the team on and off court where it would be,
but also what you do when you leave. So let's
understand the needs. Because we can agree the needs and
I can support you in the needs, but I need
to understand your perception of that between your once and

(39:51):
your needs. So yes, if we can align both, fantastic,
but which should trump which? And that sometimes takes time
with a lot of our fleets and indeed assistant coaches.
So I think that's an important part because I don't
think as another coach i've worked with, when we start
to get into the roots, that anyone disagrees with it
and go, oh, that's where the problem is.

Speaker 3 (40:11):
Mark.

Speaker 5 (40:11):
I'm thinking about this is what you should be doing,
and they're thinking, no, this is what I want. And
I've never had the conversation because the conversation has only
been more a disciplinary element when you are not giving
me what I expect, and then it becomes a bit
of a back and forth. I think what you're very
good at, Alan is whether you do it consciously. I
think you do, and it's I think I'm not sure.

(40:33):
Is what you do is you develop the environment to
provide clarity and expectations from day one, but you don't
just mention it in a preseason. You keep it alive
every single week. And I think that is a defining difference.
Not a lot of people talk about that. I think
is a great strength of a great a manager, a coach,

(40:55):
doesn't matter who it is a parent. Is if we
agree things at the beginning with expectations, eliminating that gray,
understand your role and your value within that role, and
if there is gray, let's be clear and we may
not have the answer now, but let's spend weeks and
months identifying the answers which we may not be able
to answer straight away, and then let's honor it. But
let's keep it alive. And what I think you do

(41:16):
very well is you do the part of the beginning
that expectation. But I think what you do very well
above many coaches is you keep that alive during the
season and I think that's the very important element.

Speaker 2 (41:29):
Yeah, and that's a hard part as well. Mark. This
is not easy, you know, and it's difficult to do.
But like everything and anything, when you do something so often,
it just becomes your way of being, it's who it
becomes part of who you are, and it's no longer hard.
The hard part is like anything else, anything else we
do that's new in our worlds, it's that persistence. It's

(41:53):
having that support to keep going. Maybe I wouldn't have
kept who knows, Mark, if you were around me for
about five years and a consistent basis. You know, I
had face to face support from you, you know, throughout
the year, probably a five year, continuous basis, I would say,
and who knows. Without that support, maybe I wouldn't have
got over that line. Maybe I would. I don't know,

(42:14):
but I do know it contributed to helping me to
be coming. That's how I coach now. Mark. If I
walked away from a job, guys, I don't mind saying
it openly, a very lucrative coaching position eighteen months ago,
and I walked away from it because it did the
way they were doing stuff and there's nothing wrong it.
There was just a lack of alignment to my values
and beliefs around how things should be done in a
performance environment. So I made the decision to walk away

(42:36):
after three months instead of dragging it out any longer.
Because I'm very clear what I value in coaching and
how to interact, work, communicate, cooperate and be interdependent with
a group of players. I have a way that I
believe in strongly, and if there's a lack of alignment,
then I had to make a difficult decision and walk away.
So I got to that space mark because of support,

(42:57):
for sure. But it's now just come a way of
being within my coaching, you know, and it's maybe I
do do it now without thinking. But there was a
point where for a period of time where that wasn't easy.
It was challenging. It took a lot of energy, a
lot of effort. But it's not taking any a lot
of energy and effort anymore.

Speaker 5 (43:15):
If i'm which is what Stuart and I spoke about
on other episodes, I'll add one more Stuart, then over
to you. Is the other ant you discussed there, which
I think is very critical that in particularly in the
performance areas of business and sport, is I always look
at building spider webs to make sure everyone has a
spider web. So what I mean by that is every

(43:37):
single person will have their own spider web where they're
in the middle of their web. They're a spider in
the middle, and then they literally draw it. Okay, So
who do I share or receive direct data from data
being words, product, whatever it may be. And once I've
developed that, who is then secondary? Where does that go?

(43:58):
But once I get the primary is, I do my
macro webs and I say, okay, so who are the
people that needs to connect to eliminate any funnels within
that spider's web? These three, okay, these two? Who needs
to know? Okay? Once I've done that, then I need
to say, right, I need to go out to each
one of my directs, especially those high impact ones in
those micros, and say to them, how I'm sharing the

(44:20):
data with you, whatever language you want to use, How
is it? Is it fit for purpose? Is there anything
I can do better? Then they share with Okay, yeah,
it's great, or actually this could be better. Okay, let's
agree that. Then you ask them to do the same
to you. So now that they're asking you the same question,
and so actually I think it's great, or an example

(44:40):
might be. And we see this in a lot of
sports and businesses where I'm getting like twenty thirty emails
a week as a player, and honestly, you want me
to reply to them within three days unless you say urgent,
I'm struggling to even find them with all my other emails,
So can we come up with a better solution for
me to me more succes and what you want back

(45:01):
from me? And a come on one I've used with
many as we put a live Google document on which
will have all the weekly you know, home and away,
the training plan. That's a live dock everyone sees. So
then it's just a WhatsApp group or slack whatever they use,
live dock updated. Everyone can go to that one reference
point and then they agree okay on midday on Monday.

(45:23):
Anything additional is one email and it goes out there.
If there's any other email, it will only be through
urgent of that we haven't for seen or controlled, and
all of a sudden, now we're saying, okay, now I
understand that that allows me to be more successful for you,
but actually that allows you to be more successful back.
So that's an example of that spider web to eliminate

(45:44):
all the funnels. And it goes back to your point, Alan,
when you talk about the physio, the S and C,
the performance director, which is huge. Sometimes they're not aligned
or understand what is the head coach doing. They just
want results. They're not understanding where we are has that
been agreed on expectations, going back to the point with
Gatlin as an example, So I think they were my
texture standouts from that that short period of conversation you

(46:08):
shared their Stuart, sorry, Alan, stere over to.

Speaker 1 (46:12):
You know, it's almost pick up something you said there
because I think it's an area that is interesting and
it's it links to something said earlier on as well.
So you you talked recently about just a second ago,
about how you were in an environment that you left

(46:34):
even though it had significant economic benefits to you, because
of a misalignment between your values, your principles, how you
think things should be done, and so you decided to
remove yourself from that environment, which is again, you know,
testament I think to your commitment to your craft and
your approach and your excellence.

Speaker 6 (46:56):
And in the show as well, you.

Speaker 1 (46:58):
Talked about there being which this word absolutes and there
being no absolutes.

Speaker 6 (47:04):
So I've heard this before. It's a criticism that's been
leveled at me.

Speaker 1 (47:09):
When I advocate for a particular approach or advocate for
particular ways of doing things, I often get the response
from certain quarters that you know, I'm being absolutist, and
that often the thing leveled at me is the only
thing that's absolute is that there are no absolutes, which

(47:31):
is an absolute, which is sort of a bit circular
and weird, but anywhere I quite often get that leveled
at me.

Speaker 6 (47:37):
And I don't agree. I think there are absolutes. I
think we all have them.

Speaker 1 (47:41):
I just don't think we're always ready to accept that
we have them. And you've just described them, really, which
is to say, actually, there are certain things for me
in terms of my values that are non negotiables. They're absolute,
and I'm unwilling to compromise on those. And if I

(48:01):
can't ensure that an environment fits with that value set,
I'm going to remove myself from that environment.

Speaker 6 (48:08):
And you decided to do all that.

Speaker 1 (48:10):
And this sort of stems to something I was talking
to Simon about yesterday, which is, as as you both know,
I'm you know, really.

Speaker 6 (48:19):
Interested and spend a.

Speaker 1 (48:20):
Lot of time studying and thinking about coaching ethics, and
I think coaches face into hundreds of ethical dilemmas on
a daily, weekly basis, And this question of absolute comes
up because whenever you look into some of a lot
of the kind of ethical conversations, one of the sort
of almost central conversations is this notion of is there

(48:43):
an objective morality.

Speaker 6 (48:45):
Or a subjective morality in the Just to summarize what.

Speaker 1 (48:48):
I mean by those two quick two things very quickly,
somebody who believes in a subjective a subjective morality would
say that morality right and wrong is a is content
xual and it's defined by moments, so very much aligned
to that sort of it depends mentality. Whereas somebody who's

(49:08):
more morally sorry, someone is more objectively moral, would say, no,
there are some things that are just right.

Speaker 6 (49:16):
And wrong, black and white. You just can't move back
from those sorts of things.

Speaker 1 (49:20):
And then there's degrees of gray, and Mark always talks
about removing the gray and being clear and being clear
around what it is that we're aiming for and what
we're sort of committing to, and then being pretty rigorous
and relentless in the pursuit of those things. And I'm
much more of an objective I'm much well, not entirely,

(49:43):
but I lean much closer towards the objective morality way
of thinking, because in my mind, like you, I think
that there are certain things that from a values perspective,
that I can't let go of and I'm not going
to ex somebody coming along to me and saying, well,

(50:05):
you need to accept that because this is just you know,
the way of the world, and you know it depends
and I'm good, no, no, no, no, sorry, we have to
draw the line somewhere. We have to say no, I'm sorry,
that's just unacceptable. Bringing back, bringing us back to the language.
And I'm just interested in your view really because I

(50:27):
actually think it we'd be better off as a as
a craft, as a as a profession. Coaching and coaching
is not yet a profession, but it could be, and
if we were to make it a profession, we'd need
to be clear about what our boundaries are, you know.
And you look at other professions like the medical profession,
real clarity as to what you know, what what is acceptable,

(50:47):
what is unacceptable behavior amongst the medical profession wide world.
You're dealing with people's lives, and I think we are,
Like you go back to your point, I think coaching
is part of the care profession world. And you know
why I'm attracted to you know, Colin's work and and
and all that sort of stuff, you know, So for
me and on Nego, you know, there's there are plenty
of non negotiables in my world, and I'm accused of

(51:09):
being evangelical. I'm accused of being you know, what's the word,
you know, espousing rhetoric or being dogmatic and all that
sort of stuff.

Speaker 6 (51:18):
And in some respects I take that.

Speaker 1 (51:20):
As a as a as the greatest compliment, because in
my mind there are certain things that I'm just not
prepared to bend on.

Speaker 6 (51:29):
So anyway I just be thought is to get your
reflections on that.

Speaker 2 (51:32):
Really, Yeah, well, well there's a lot. I mean, Stewart,
that's there's so many different directions to go there. But
I'll try to keep it anchored to coaching because I
think this gets challenging because if we start to talk
about from a philosophical point of view or just I

(51:53):
believe in this way of doing things, I don't believe
that necessarily carries over into other domains or may not
carry over into another domain. So for example, the medical industry, like, okay,
we're dealing with people and medicine and health, so there's

(52:13):
probably well, my fort in laws are retired doctor, so
I don't want to he's in the next room. Actually,
I don't want to hear me talking about the medical industry,
so I'll open up the can of worms there. But
I think it's very different when you're talking about people
in coaching who have different needs and motivations to be
there versus somebody that's going to see a doctor for
a prescription or requirement for something now. So I'm not

(52:36):
sure I feel the same way Stuart about being you know,
a bit more tighter on how we should do things
in the coaching domain, because I think there's different needs
and motivations for the people in that where we go
into a doctor surgery, we all have the same need motivation.
I need the cure, I need the medicine to cure
this illness potentially potentially. I like I said, I'm trying

(52:56):
to stay out of that space. I'm trying to root
myself back into the coaching world. So the language is
critically important. I agree. I think that's where a lot
of the gray area does exist interpretation of what we say,
and it's a bit like the arc of distortion. Very often,
when you hear coach two coaches talking and you're the
third person removed, You're going you're actually talking about the

(53:18):
same thing, You're just not understanding each other's language, you know,
intention versus outcome kind of thing. I think that happens
a lot if I'm being honest and the coaching domain,
especially on social media, where you can't explain your points
a bit more thoroughly and be challenged and being a
bit more clearer. But for me, Stuart, I can display
to you here what I believe is an effective way

(53:43):
to coach that I have taken on and I think
it encompasses both worlds. When I listened to you and
Mark last week, I'm going, yeah, I can get on
board of that. Yeah, I can get on board with that. Oh,
they're they're weaved. It's just a matter of which one
we're going to pull out, which tool I'm going to
pull out at this moment based on a calculated education
judgment of what's needed in this moment. So, for example,

(54:05):
I went on a seven year journey Stuart, around self
regulated learning, eight years deep dive studied professional doctorate around
self regulated learning, where I had to take a team
myself at teams on a journey of planning, monitoring, evaluating,
adapting and adapting being the key part of that. But

(54:25):
we all had to have an aligned and shared understanding
of what the plan is to go forward, how we're
going to monitor it, how we're going to evaluate it,
and then how we will adapt it if necessary. And
if that's an absolute, then that's my absolute. But that's
an absolute that says adaptability is at the core, in
the central of this. But we're adapting to what's going

(54:47):
on in front of us. We're adapting to reality. Which
is why actually I have a at the moment a
bit of a battle between expectations, because I think expectations
can become a debilitator of progress because when you don't
meet those expectations, what do people generally do? They get upset,
they get annoyed. Well, actually, no, let's accept that this

(55:08):
is the reality. Let's go back to the plan. Let's
let's let's adapt that plan and move forward with a
shared understanding and alignment on this is how we're going
to do it next time. So adaptability is huge, and
I don't and I think there's a bit of a
contradiction there. There's an absolute way to do something, and
that's something is to be adaptable and respond to your environment.

(55:30):
You know, there's there's a huge contradictions there. So I
think we should just stop talking about absolutes and actually
start talking about the people in front of us that
we're coaching, and actually start talking more about, well, what's
a really good way to find out their needs and
their motivations? Right, there's their needs and motivations. Can I
get on board with how have I got the skill

(55:51):
set to support these people on this journey for their
needs and motivations? Or do I need to bring in
a Mark Bennett? Do I need to bring into Stuart Armstrong?
Do I need that's care by the way in coaching,
put your hand up saying I don't have the skill
set to do this. I got to bring somebody else
in to help support with this. So I know, I'm
very aware of the battles, and I'm very aware of
the social media battles, and it's just the I will

(56:13):
never enter into those battles ever, because I don't think
they give me enough space to explain or validate my
beliefs and values around how coaching is most effectively done.

Speaker 5 (56:28):
That's your texture, Alan, And it's interesting because Stuart, do
you remember back in the day when you popped up
with par as an acronym?

Speaker 2 (56:40):
Yeah?

Speaker 6 (56:41):
I do you blame me that's brought it back, so, which.

Speaker 5 (56:45):
Totally aligned to what you guys are using within your business. Alan,
And do you remember what your stood for Stuart.

Speaker 6 (56:54):
No, you're gonna have to remind me.

Speaker 5 (56:58):
It was plan action review. Oh that's right, Yeah, it's
golf part So and again it's that point of we
set expectations based on the data we have at the time,
where we go, well, if we apply, you know, with
the right state, with our capability, our combination capability, and
commit to the choices, we can expect to get here somewhere,

(57:20):
then you have an experience and it might be that's
a blip, We need a few more. It might be no,
that's enough of experience to go. Actually, our expectations were
wrong because did we commit yes, did we do the
best of what we had yes? Did we get anywhere
near expectations? No? Okay, it was just our expectations wrong.
But we're doing great. Okay, let's just review that now
and it can be the same the other way. But
that's that point about texture, because what we're saying is

(57:42):
we want clarity of purpose and goal. Do we all
understand what that is and what we need to do?
Do we understand our roles within that great show me
load of pressure up. That's the safety of practice in
a sporty context. And then we go right to go
for it, and all of a sudden, now we have
a an uncontrollable which is an umpire referee and an opposition,

(58:04):
and all of a sudden, they're giving us something that
we didn't deal with or didn't have the capability to
deal with, because they're higher capability than the opposition we
could put on ourselves. The umpires reading the game very
differently and inconsistently than we had. How we now managing
that in the moment, not after the match, not two
days later we watch a video. How we managing that

(58:26):
in the moment. Back to that adaptability Stewart, and that
may be as simple as building smart sim players of
any sport to understand this umpire referee is reading that
rule interpretation this way. Guys, we need to adapt. I'm
not going to keep doing the same thing as goo
You're wrong, umpire, You'll keep calling me umpire, you're wrong.

(58:48):
I've got to be going Hang on a minute. If
they're reading it this, what can I do? Can I
influence an umpire or winning hearts and minds. Stuart Hooper
and Rugby Bath Rugby was a mastrat, winning the hearts
and minds of the umpire referees in games because he
respected me. You know, I'm I could have a chat
with you at the end of this match, and I'm
going to I'm gonna share with you. I thought that

(59:08):
was a real tough game. We going to get up
for a coffee or just sharing that. And he knew
he would see over the years that referee again. And
when a referee saw Stewart again, what association that referee
had with Stuart a positive one. So the opportunity of
dialogue in a match was so much easier. It wasn't
how this guy's giving me hassle, I'm blocking any conversation.

(59:30):
So that's an example of texture and adaptability expectation. But again,
if we don't have the skills of adaptability, if we
don't have the skills of I won't mention him Stewart,
But we both know a golf coach that had great commitment,
but that was always late to every single masterclass, every
single venue, every single morning coffee was you could guarantee

(59:55):
who's going to be late. Alan did he commit to
getting there. Absolutely was he husiastic when he got there. Absolutely,
So it wasn't a commitment issue. What was it. It
was a time management and understanding the logistics of traffic issue.
So he was committing, but he was leaving house at
the wrong time every single because it's SAT and I
said an hour and a half, so he go, it's

(01:00:15):
an hour and a half. I'm going to leave an
hour and a half. And he was always late. So
that's I think that's a funny example, but that's an
example of Right, we're looking at an athlete. Now we're
understanding their needs. Let's scan their capability. Let's put them
under pressure. Let's look at the combinations. Where are their strengths,
Where are their limitations? Do they know them?

Speaker 6 (01:00:34):
Where?

Speaker 5 (01:00:34):
We need to get them to recognize it because they're
unlikely to grow to the needs. Okay, great, now that's
where they are. Right, Let's build and adapt every simple
time as a match in a practice. It might take
eight weeks, two three months to build a capability of
output in this athlete, but I'm going to do it.
Looping back to your point, Alan and Stewart is there

(01:00:56):
will be times where you like you did, Alan, We'll
decide this environment is not right for me. It's right
for them, it's not right for me. So I'm going
to go somewhere else Because I can't change the environment.
I've attempted to influence it, but not at the level
now where I can. So I'm going to move now.
That's that's a strength to do. And I think some people,

(01:01:16):
especially in business, may not have the courage to find
another job, pay the bills, et cetera. So I know
there's barriers to that. But also sometimes we as a
coach need to have that conversation with an athlete to
say you may not be right for this team. Back
to that point of change, to coach, change the coach,
change the athlete.

Speaker 3 (01:01:36):
Or change.

Speaker 5 (01:01:37):
I've done everything I can to enhance you, to align
you to what we agree and what this environment looks like.
With all the effort I'm putting in, assistant coaches and
putting in other athletes are putting in with you, you're
not changing. There's a barrier here. So maybe you're just
right for another team, but maybe you're not right for

(01:01:57):
this team. And that's sometimes again a die logue coaches
need to have. But have they developed an environment where
an athlete can say, yeah, this just isn't right for me.
But I've done everything I can, but it's just it's
not right. I need to find somewhere else. And again
that's not saying you're wrong, you're a bad athlete. It's
just saying, Okay, now, we have a lot of athletes,

(01:02:19):
and I know you've seen them. Alan, there was a
young player who was in your GB I think it
was GB or England team where he was a new player.
Came in, he capability low, but in the camp when
you were selecting, he showed attitude and commitment and work
rate beyond anybody else on the team. And there was
a thought about dropping this guy, and you had conversations

(01:02:42):
around dinner. I can see you recalling it now where
you were actually going, well, hang on, let's look at it.
And I remember you when some of the assistant goes going,
now we need to get rid of him. So hang
on a minute. Let's just have a look at what
he's been doing since he's been here. How many years
experience has he got nowhere near as much as the others? Okay,
but what has he improved here? Massively? So it's improved

(01:03:02):
in a couple of days a minute. What's his actually
been like, what's it been like in his communication? His
work right is to do the extras phenomenal best in
the team. Okay, well, I think we need to keep him,
and I remember you did keep him, and I think
he became quite a successful athlete. Do you remember that play?

Speaker 7 (01:03:17):
I yes, yes, I think that's a great example of
you looking at behaviors, environments and investing in someone that
may not share in the capability.

Speaker 1 (01:03:30):
Yeah.

Speaker 2 (01:03:31):
I'll give a similar story, Mark, because it's it's more powerful. Actually,
when you came in and we did some work in
the school I was teaching it in Southwest London. We
did a six month project supporting the teachers, influencing the influencers.
We called it where you and I went in and
supported an English maths and science teacher and a member
of the senior leadership team who was a history teacher
as well at the time. And you know, we worked

(01:03:53):
with some interesting characters, didn't we Some really some really
fun guys who didn't want to be in school, you know,
high school, age and city London school. And I remember that,
you know, you had a conversation with a group of
them and these were you know, these were on the
cusp of being removed from from secondary education into other

(01:04:13):
educational institutions and probably being cast to the wolves, sadly
some of them. And I remember you saying to a
group of them that you this is not your true self.
You're you're now just become your I'm butchering that. I'm
going to go for a mark and correct with jumping
if you want. But you said something along the lines

(01:04:35):
of this is not the true version of you. You
are now displaying behaviors that have been influenced by your
current environment. So you're not actually true. This is not
a true reflection of who you are and your potential.
So you're not achieving your own excellence. And I remember
that session and the penny dropping. I'm looking at their
faces now. I coached these young men for four or

(01:04:57):
five years. They were GCSE a level at the time.
They've been in the school since year seven, and I
knew them really what you could see the penny dropping. Oh,
hang on a second, So my environment has me behaving
a certain way, and I have control over this. I
have a choice. And it was the same with me
around that selection of that player. I was hang on

(01:05:19):
a second, I have a choice here to look beyond
what's staring me in the face and go, let's see
what sits behind when I pull the curtain back, what's
behind the curtain? Okay, behavior outstanding learning ability to show
that quick learner took everything on board, reflective, clearly, gone
back to hotel room, reflective of what we've done and
the day, come back and try to apply the next
day intentionality around what they're doing. So thoughtful and they've

(01:05:43):
only been doing this two years, which is four years
less than everybody else. Can you imagine what he's going
to be like in four years as a gbunder twenty
or a GB senior player. Right, we're hanging on to
that player with that data. Now, we're hanging on We're
not making a snapshot judgment because of what's just happening
in front of us. Why now, in comparison to others,
we're looking at potential and not outcomes. Now, so I'm

(01:06:06):
very rich more than me at that time.

Speaker 6 (01:06:07):
Mark.

Speaker 5 (01:06:08):
Now, Now what you shared there, I think it loops
back again to even the ecodynamics and great coaching managing.
Is that point of that data was there? That data
was there as much as someone saying how fast or
accurate can they dribble the ball left and right hand
or they're actually if they're passing or being in the
right space to receive their match IQ. That data was there,

(01:06:30):
but many times people would be blinded to even spend
time one looking for the data and then using that
data to inform an opinion on someone. So what you
did there was you highlighted and raised awareness to data
that others may not have even thought about that informed
their decision of that individual. And I think that's another

(01:06:51):
important factor.

Speaker 2 (01:06:53):
Stuart, hugely, hugely important, Stuart, can I can I pull
you in here and just go back a little bit
around ecodynamics and that form of being as a coach,
let's say, the environment of how you facilitate the environment
for people to learn and grow and develop. So I'm
in that space. I'm a strong advocate of that I have.

(01:07:13):
I'm slowly working with our coaches at our club right
now where I've got full agency over what we do.
We own the facility and we can it's a playground
for many different things. In coaching is really fun, a
lot of fun from the youngest age to the senior age,
and they're really enjoying the CLA approach. So I've introduced them,
you know, to CLA and that form of coaching as

(01:07:36):
a method. So I was just having this conversation with
Sign before you jumped on, the person, the environment, the context,
the task, all that stuff and what sits behind that
is a lot of questions probing, not necessarily what's the
opposite directive? Tell tell teal instructional pay setting. If you

(01:08:00):
can keep up, good, If you can't keep up, but
you're off with you, we'll keep We'll run with the
ones who can keep up with the pay setting approachable coach.
So I was just having this conversation with Mark before
you jumped on, about where I sit in that space
with the hats I wear so in this so in
our practice facility or with the Great Britain national team
and the training camps very much taken on a CLA

(01:08:23):
approach where they have you know, repetition without repetition, game
representative task design and all that and and so on.
And I believe in that form of learning and development
or learning in development as as some have said. But
you know, I was saying to Mark, there's times where

(01:08:43):
if I stay in that space and I don't and
there's been times where that way of coaching, that way
of being is not effective in certain spaces. And an
example of one of those spaces, and this is where
I think ecodynamics is probably misunderstood and misrepresented. I'm interested

(01:09:07):
in your perspective under shore. If it's a minute to
go and we're playing Spain, I'll give you a real
life example. We're playing Latvia in a relegation game. Division A,
Division B huge thing for British basketball. We're trying to
stay in Division A as much as we can. It's
like Premiership Championship football, all right, And there's a minute

(01:09:29):
to go, and we were up ten, We're now down one,
and I noticing confidence is low, self efficacy is low.
I've got to call the time out here to stop
the bleeding and try to take back control of the
game in our favor, momentum back in our favor. In
those moments, the players looked at me and were like,
tell us what to do, Like, we don't have the

(01:09:53):
capacity to think what's the best thing to do any question.
I felt in that moment, with the experience I've had
to that point, it doesn't matter how good I am
and how skilled I am at questioning and having a
range of effective questions for all different moments. In that moment,
they needed me to tell them what to do, so
there would be task cohesion as a starting point. As

(01:10:16):
a starting point, so we're in tell mode in that
moment in that timeout. Now, when they come out of
the timeout and we go to execute this tactic and
the defense shifts and makes a change which disables that tactic,
the work with the CLA approach I've taken on in

(01:10:38):
the two months leading up to that moment kicks into
gear and they have to adapt and adjust to what's
going on in front of them. So I went along
a sliding scale with them in that game for example
of ask, discuss, involve, nudge, guide, tell. But when they

(01:10:59):
went back under court, the TEW tactic we decided upon
was challenged and they had to adapt and adjust to
what was happening in front of them. So this is
the space I live in around coaching methods. Yet if
people ask me what kind of coach? What do you advocate?
I'm very clear on what I advocate, But I'm also

(01:11:21):
very clear on what the environment has asked of me
as a coach. With the methods I've chosen. What does that?
What's your thoughts around that? If that's if that makes.

Speaker 1 (01:11:30):
Sense, Yeah, there's a few thoughts. There could be a
long winded answer, and I'm not known for my brevity,
so I'll do my best.

Speaker 6 (01:11:41):
But two things. So, I think often.

Speaker 1 (01:11:46):
When people ask me these questions, you're talking at the
you're talking at the scale of method, like what would
I what should I do? And there's a people work
under an assumption that if you're a coach operating within
a let's call it any you know, the ecological approach,
or that as a framework is your framework towards learning

(01:12:09):
and human human advancement, that there are certain things that
are off the table, like you don't do certain things,
you're not allowed to do certain things if you work
as an ecological practitioner. And that isn't the case at all,
But I think people are misconstrued that partly because of

(01:12:31):
the way that these things are discussed, and also I
think partly because some people who are apt to critic
sort of criticized the ecological it likes to sort of
straw man it in that way. In that way, you know,
so if you're an ecological practitioner, then you're saying we
can't do this, And one of the examples of that
would be, for example, instruction, and the ecological approach views

(01:12:55):
instruction as just another form of constraint in the same
way a question would be, and the constraints are used
for and constraintor used for particular purposes. Now, the ecological
practitioner would probably then tend to use instruction as a
means by which to draw attention towards a particular aspect

(01:13:20):
of the solution space, in order to draw the player's
attention to that so that they become clear on what
the problem and the solution is and maybe that they've
just lost sight of that.

Speaker 2 (01:13:34):
Right.

Speaker 6 (01:13:34):
It's not the only way you do it, though.

Speaker 1 (01:13:35):
Sometimes it's about you're using instruction as a way to
give them clarity as to the way they're going to
self organized, because they still as you just described that,
they're still self organized. You gave them an instruction and
a framework to operate within, but your training modality had
meant that they knew full well there was going to
be adaptation within that.

Speaker 6 (01:13:54):
There weren't going to be slaves to it.

Speaker 1 (01:13:57):
And that's why you're different, Because a lot of other
coaches would expect you to be a slave to it
because perfect execution of the intended play is the only
way to get success.

Speaker 6 (01:14:08):
And they're rationale.

Speaker 1 (01:14:09):
For a failure of the intended play would be that
the execution was imperfect, and you're actually not operating in
that respect. You're actually designing imperfection and adaptation to other things.

Speaker 6 (01:14:24):
You're designing that in it's a feature, not a bug.

Speaker 1 (01:14:28):
Now, where the confusion often gets is that the ecological
approach is it's a description of human adaptation within the
dynamics of movements operating at a different scale, different scale
of analysis.

Speaker 6 (01:14:44):
And what it's saying is is that human beings.

Speaker 1 (01:14:48):
And all organisms for that matter, well, sorry, there is
a misapprehension around how humans learn. And the misapprehension is,
and this comes from a traditional approach, that what humans
are doing is they're take information from their surroundings, they're
processing it in their brains and turning that into movement patterns.

Speaker 6 (01:15:06):
An the ecological approach.

Speaker 1 (01:15:07):
Is basically saying that's there's an alternative explanation, that that
might be one explanation, but there is an alternative. And
the alternative explanation, which is more parsimonious and makes more
sense to me anyway, is the humans aren't doing that
at all. They're not creating representations in their brain and
then recreating them into movements. What they're doing is they're

(01:15:28):
just directly perceiving their environment online all the time, and
it's just it's it's in a constant state of go.
And actually, the more you can attune a group of
people towards that specifying information in an environment, the more
able they are to adapt. And so when you're in
your learning space, you're going to design that world which

(01:15:49):
is going to be free of lots of direct instruction,
because the more direct instruction you put into that environment,
the less they're going to attune to the informational properties
and the variables within the environment.

Speaker 6 (01:15:59):
So that's scale of analysis.

Speaker 1 (01:16:01):
It's really saying, this is how we think about human
adaptation and learning.

Speaker 6 (01:16:05):
Now.

Speaker 1 (01:16:05):
In the moment, human adaptation might require you from a
need centered perspective, might require you to act in a
certain way because you're constrained by time their ability to
take on informational variables. But your fundamental basis for what
it is that you give them will be based on
the idea that whatever you give them is just going

(01:16:26):
to be a framework that they're going to need to
adapt within, and a lot of other traditional coaches, working
under the previous misapprehension, would say, I'm going to put
an information code into this group of individuals and they're
going to have to then turn that into mental representation
and execute it perfectly, and only perfect execution will achieve
the goal we're looking for. And fundamentally, that is an

(01:16:47):
error in the ecological perspective.

Speaker 2 (01:16:50):
And I think, like the last point there, Mark, and
then excuse me, how that you jump in, Mark? I
think the last point there you made sure it's very
powerful because I think it's in that space that people
get frustrated coaches, players because the expectation is unrealistic and
they can't accept the reality of the outcome. And then

(01:17:11):
it's and then the blame game kicks in, And now
we're talking about harm associated with coaching, and now we're
talking about coaching having a negative impact on humans, on
people who are having bad experiences, and anybody having a
bad experience is not performing at their best. And the
other factor there is we're taking agency away from human
beings who have a voice and a choice around everything

(01:17:31):
they do in their life. Why would we not enable
empower influence them to have a voice and the choice
in the sports they're performing. I mean, I just don't
get it. As a coach, I stand on the sideline. Mark,
you had this conversation years ago. What I see in
what they see are two different things. The angle is
completely different. So for not involving them in the process

(01:17:53):
to make a choice and have agency over micro's second moments,
We're just like, what's our expectation is built upon? So fragile, Mark,
go for it. Sorry, buddy, I know you were going on.

Speaker 5 (01:18:05):
I'm mindful of time, but I just wanted to do
a full loop back from what Stuart's just said and
ecodynamics and what I said to those young people at
the school, and it was a fact of you are
not a product of the environment. You're a product of
your interpretation of the environment. And if you choose how
people tell you who you are at the moment, you're

(01:18:28):
allowing people that don't know do know you to tell
you who you are. They don't know who you are,
But I think you've lost sight of knowing who you
are and what you're capable of. So explore that because
that's where the magic happens.

Speaker 2 (01:18:42):
And that's back to the skill of the teacher to
be able to facilitate that. That's back to the skill
of the coach to facilitate that. And I'll guys, I'll
have to jump, but I'd like to end on this
with a statement if you don't mind, well, actually, the
skill of a coach is actually knowing self. What's my
ability to pursue take people on the journey to grow, develop,

(01:19:04):
enhance whatever their needs are. And am I open enough
to go? Actually that Mark Bennett, Yeah, I can reach
out to him, and or that Stuart Armstrong or that
Simon Turner or whoever it is. I can reach out
to them and go, Actually, I'm not very good in
this space. Do you have twenty minutes? Or is there
a course I can do? Or is there resources out there?

Speaker 6 (01:19:22):
Like?

Speaker 2 (01:19:22):
This is why I say going back to learning being
the competitive advantage I feel I have because I'm self
assured in my position to go. I don't have all
the answers, but I'm going to research and find out
people who are skilled in that space, and I'm going
to try to pick their brain and take from them
as much as I possibly can, and then find a
way to make it my own so I can actually
carry forward. I think that's the most important message. Mark,

(01:19:46):
it's not necessarily I think, just to wrap this point up.
Just to wrap this point up, Mark, I'm going back
to the self awareness factor. If the coach is not
starting from a place of being self aware around their
sk what's the culture's skill set Forget the players you're coaching,
Turn the camera on yourself as a coach. Do a

(01:20:06):
deep dive analysis of yourself and your self skills, and
start to identify the gaps that are going to hold
you back from helping the people reach the potential that
you're working with. That's got to be the first step.
And that's never the first step when you enter into coaching.
I've yet to meet a coach that took that that's
their first step.

Speaker 5 (01:20:22):
They took well, you know how tough it's been for
me to get coaches. Go film yourself managers, absolutely, because
you've got to established not what you think you are,
the reality of who you are and what you do.
I think that's one point that's critical. I think the
second and last point, Alan is we use a word,
we use it on other episodes, but what you do
is you as everyone should do, is you see ways

(01:20:44):
to enhance what you already do or change what you
already do because you see that as that's something you
need to enhance. What some coaches that don't have that
mindset is they feel if I show I need help,
that's showing that I know good. I'm a poor coach.
So that's just a paradigm shift in no, no, no, no,
what am I asking for athletes? Well, let me just

(01:21:07):
do that? Because when I do that, what am I
expect to them? I'm going to be in a far
better place. There won't be fear there. I will enhance myself,
I'll enjoy it, I'll be less stressed, and I'll be
better for it. It's just a mentality shift, isn't it.

Speaker 2 (01:21:21):
Yeah, Well, you're doing it disservice to your players. I
will say this, if you tell me that you don't
have time to grow and invest in yourself as a
coach and stop coaching, stop coaching, because you're doing it
disservice to the people you're coaching. Whether you're a volunteer
coach and I get the time restraints, but if you're
not going to go on a journey to any degree
small degree, big degree, doesn't have to not huge commitments here,

(01:21:42):
but just commit to self development for the benefit of
the people you're coaching, because you're doing it disservice if
you're not grown as a coach, but yet you're trying
to grow the people you're coaching. It's ironic really.

Speaker 5 (01:21:53):
Link to you, Stuart where obviously we've got the coach
Keen fourteen. What's your website.

Speaker 6 (01:22:01):
The Talent Equation dot co dot UK.

Speaker 1 (01:22:04):
Yeah, stuff on their blogs going up there regularly, podcast
going up there regularly.

Speaker 6 (01:22:10):
Yeah.

Speaker 5 (01:22:11):
And Alan, where's the Obviously you've got your social media,
but where is your website for your business to help
support coaches?

Speaker 2 (01:22:21):
Thanks? Mark, It's Movements Sports dot com. That's mv mtsports
dot com short for Movements right.

Speaker 5 (01:22:32):
I know we're both aligned, so it's not people thinking,
Hang on a minute, why is Mark promoting Alan's business?
Because isn't he doing the same as Marks as well?
We are aligned the same, but actually how we do
it is very differently and there is no competition there.
It's just equal ways to choose one that's going to
enhance you, or choose both. It's going to harch you. There,
there's no competition there in a negative way.

Speaker 2 (01:22:52):
Absolutely, I would say we complement each other, Mark, and
I'll be always I'll always put it out there as
well and be open and transparent that you were huge,
hugely influential and continue to be with my coaching. And
like I said to you, I think before Stuart jumped on,
you've still influenced my coaching. Your podcast episodes are still
influencing my coaching, Stuart, both of you. So yeah, we

(01:23:13):
compliment each other, Marcus, how I would put it, our businesses,
we compliment each other.

Speaker 5 (01:23:18):
Thanks to your time, Alan, really appreciate it. This will
be a great episode. First guest, you've set a high bar.
Whether you don't like admitting it or not, this is
loads of stuff in this conversation.

Speaker 2 (01:23:30):
I appreciate it. Guys, Thank you, folloys, and really appreciate
the episodes. You don't keep them rolling.

Speaker 5 (01:23:34):
Cheers, Thank you, see you later.

Speaker 3 (01:23:39):
Thanks for listening to the Talent Equation podcast. If you
like the show, then please consider supporting it by leaving
a review on your favorite podcast player, telling your friends
about it, or even becoming a hero and show your
appreciation by becoming a patron. Just head over to the
Talent Equation dot co dot uk and click on the
becoming a Patron puddy at the top of the page.

Speaker 5 (01:24:02):
You

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A conversation with PDS Ninja Alan Keane - PBNO 9

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.css-14f5ked{margin:0;word-break:break-word;display:-webkit-box;-webkit-box-orient:vertical;box-orient:vertical;-webkit-line-clamp:2;overflow:hidden;}A conversation with PDS Ninja Alan Keane - PBNO 9