"I don't coach trampolining...I help people explore movement on a bouncy surface" - a conversationDanny Hatcher - The Talent Equation Podcast

Episode Transcript
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Speaker 1 (00:00):
Hi everyone, Stewart here before we get into today's podcast,
I wonder if I can ask you to do me
a favor. I'm hoping that I can get the podcast
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the more people that it can impact. I often get
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had on them and the people that they work with.
Sometimes that impact goes as far as family members and

(00:23):
relationships that you hold. I'm hoping that I can get
that message out call wider audience. Now. Obviously, the more
people that listen, the more impact the show can have,
but also the more people that subscribe and download, then
that helps me to invest in the show and put
out more content. As you know, my podcasting of late's
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partly due to the fact that I've just been struggling

(00:43):
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(01:04):
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(01:26):
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(01:46):
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Speaker 2 (01:55):
Welcome to the Town Equation Podcast.

Speaker 3 (02:00):
If you are passionate about helping young people to unleash
their potential and want to find ways to do that better,
then you've come to the right place. The Talent Equation
podcast seeks to answer the important questions facing parents, coaches,
and talent developers as they try to help young people
become the best they can be. This is a series

(02:21):
of unscripted, unpolished conversations between people at the razor's edge
of the talent community who are prepared to share their knowledge, experiences,
and challenges in an effort to help others get better faster. Listen, reflect,
and don't forget to join the discussion at the Talent
Equation dot co dot UK.

Speaker 4 (02:43):
Enjoy the show.

Speaker 1 (02:58):
We'll have to look back to me and throwing and
back and forth, which is all entirely my fault as usual.
The very patient and I'm very excited to talk to
actually Danny Hatcher. This is a long time coming. I
can't believe that. Well, we've just been just before we've
even started talking, we've had I've discovered that I've actually

(03:22):
consumed your content previously on an entirely separate subject and
not realized it was you. And then subsequently, through a
mutual friend Adam Hannover at Eastbourne Boxing, we've been put
in touch and I've started watching your content on YouTube
and we've been like, why have I never met this
Why have I never met this guy? Firstly, why have
I never seen his content before? Because absolutely amazing. But anyway, Danny, welcome,

(03:46):
Thank you.

Speaker 4 (03:47):
I will take the praise. I don't I don't often
like compliments, but I would take those. Yeah, it's good
to be here. I mean I've I've listened to your
podcast for years. I think I've put that in the
email when I reached out. I've been listening since an undergrad.
Since since then, I mean I graduated undergrad, I did
my postgrad, and I've been debating about doing a PhD
for the last four years. So yeah, it's been a

(04:10):
long time listening and the great conversations. So yeah, happy
to be here.

Speaker 1 (04:14):
Well, we have something in common because I'm someone who
did a postgrad and then and then we was going
to do the PhD and never got to the PhD
and thought, I'll come back to the PhD, and what
thirty odd years later, still going to come back to
that PhD. I hope you're in the longest by anyway,

(04:36):
I mean, and you've got some great content I won't
necessarily get you to talk about because your story is
a really good one, and a lot of the stuff
about your journey and coaching and all of those things
is really really, really fascinating, and you've got a great
video that really goes into it. But you know, if
you wouldn't mind doing that sort of like kind of
that short background story and then we can we can
get people to go and have a look at the

(04:57):
full story, you know, because I think you're doing much
more justice obviously in that video, and I would highly
recommend anybody going to see that. It's an absolutely brilliant,
very open and very transparent kind of way of sort
of describing the journey that you went on. But if
you can give us the short version, that'd be brilliant.

Speaker 4 (05:13):
Yeah, it's kind of interesting. Since I started the sport Trampoline,
I've actually told my story multiple times in different ways,
some for articles, some for videos, some in podcasts. So
I should be practiced at this, but I'm sure i'll
mess up. So very briefly, for context, I grew up
half deaf ear infections when I was younger, so going

(05:34):
through school, going through all of life, been half deaf
on my right side. The main issue for me was
that I wasn't deaf enough, which I know sounds a
bit odd. Throughout school so I didn't get any support.
So when teachers turn around to write on the board,
for example, I can't lit read because obviously I can't
see their face. So I struggled to hear things in class,

(05:54):
similar things with people sitting next to me, if they're
making noise or tapping their pen, it was distracting. It's
hard for me to isolate what people were saying, so
I had to find different strategies and work around communication struggles.
And in primary school I was okay at it. Secondary
school is much much harder because you're going all over
the place. So some people that recognize that you struggle

(06:17):
with hearing, so some of my friends in primary school
they sort of stopped tapping. Secondary school, there's different people,
different seeking plans, different rooms, teachers, so all the way
through the school and sport. I sort of struggled with
that a bit. But I've always been interested in sport
ever since I can remember, I've been doing some sort
of sport, various sports, gymnastics, football, handball, rugby, athletics, swimming, scouting,

(06:42):
so all the outdoor activities canoeing, kayaking, climbing, archery, everything,
and team sports I enjoyed, but obviously with communication struggled
a little bit. When you've got the coaches shouting from
the sidelines, with the wind blowing my ear, I have
no idea what the shouting at me. I sort of
just not smiled and run around and hope I'm doing
the right thing. But trampolaine was the individual sport that

(07:06):
I latched on too, I guess you would say, because one,
it's an individual sports, so I don't have to worry
about communication. I just stop when the coach wants to
tell me something. But also I'm a bit of a
not necessarily adrenaline junkie. But I like the feeling of
exploring the not necessarily unknown. But the feeling of weightlessness,

(07:27):
the feeling of all that was a bit dangerous. That
was fun. When I was younger, and it still is.
I'm twenty eight almost and I still like throwing myself
around doing somersaults. So yeah, so trampline now is my
main sport. But in twenty twenty so I graduated my
master's degree in twenty twenty. One of the reasons I
didn't do a PhD because the world shut down. I

(07:48):
lost my eyesight and my right eye in twenty twenty.
I literally I woke up and I couldn't see, which
adds another barrier action capacities. I'm sure we'll talk about
those later, but yeah, action capacities, capabilities, whichever word you
want to use. There was diminished so half their half blind,
both right side, which impeded my ability to play football.
I was playing football on adults, but I like misjudged

(08:11):
the depth of the ball when the balls go going
over my head. I remember the last interaction I had
in a eleven ssided football game. I was playing in defense,
sanning on halfway line. Goalkeeper kicks the ball and I'm thinking, oh,
I've got to go forwards. So I moved two steps forwards,
and then I realized, actually, no, I need to step backwards,
so I step backwards. Then I realized, actually, no, I
did need to go forwards, but the player has run
into my blind spot, so I run straight into the player.

(08:33):
They carry on running, I fall over, the ball bounces
over my head and then just run straight through on
guard and I'm like, I can't do this way too frustrating.
So yeah, So after that, I decided in twenty twenty
three that I'm going to focus on coaching because I've
done my end graduate degree in coaching postgraduate degree in coaching,
so I'm going to coach and somewhat stars aligned. There

(08:57):
was a facility next to me where I did my degree.
The Eastbourne campus moved to Farmer, which meant the facility
was being taken over by I think it's Wave Leisure
and South Downs Health and well Being something like that.
And it was the facility that had height and storage,
which trampoline is hard to get the height available plus storage,

(09:18):
and I thought, you know what, instead of being a
coach adding one more coach to a setup that's currently
available around me, I'm just going to start a new one.
So I did. I created Eastbourne Trampoline, which has now
been running for about a month. Obviously, all of the
admin stuff has been going on for a while, but
sessions have been running for about four weeks now. Well

(09:40):
it'll be four weeks on Friday. So yeah, I think
that that covers a lot of broad brushstrokes.

Speaker 1 (09:47):
But yeah, there's a lot of places to go.

Speaker 5 (09:53):
One of the things I was interested in, though, so.

Speaker 1 (09:59):
You were on a as you were learning to coach.
You did you do an undergraduate degree in coaching or
did you start even earlier than that?

Speaker 4 (10:07):
So depending on how you define coaching. I started helping
in activities when I was in Scouts, So I was
helping activities in Scouts. I'ms like eleven, twelve years old.
Then I started helping my sister's football team when I'm
like fourteen fifteen, because I wanted to be a pee teacher.
But when I saw the curriculum, the degree curriculum for

(10:28):
pee teacher, I decided that's not quite the way I
wanted to go. So I did a sports coaching undergraduate degree,
and my head of course was very focused on psychology.
They've done a PhD in psychology, so it's it wasn't
cones and whistles, it was I mean, I learned about
the constraints led approach in year one.

Speaker 1 (10:49):
Now, if I remember directly as well through watching your video,
you tell a story about how learning about the conflints
led approach and ecological psychology ecological dynamic was a bit
of a savior for you in terms of kind of
reconceptualizing your own experiences within sport and the prestrations that

(11:12):
you'd had, also.

Speaker 5 (11:14):
Some of the prestations in the early stages of coaching.

Speaker 1 (11:16):
And then how learning more about that meant that you
had a I don't know, an epiphany and awakening that
was I guess useful, not just in the world of coaching,
but in the rest of your life.

Speaker 5 (11:29):
I might have overdone that.

Speaker 4 (11:30):
But yeah, no, no, no, that's that's accurate. So I'm an
open book. I'm quite happy to have any conversation. So
if you want to ask a question, ask a question.
In my second year of undergraduate degree, i'd moved out
of home for second year into town and at that point,
so I lost three members of my family at the

(11:50):
end of college of sixth forms. So it's like sixteen
seventeen years old or three members of family. Didn't deal
with that very well. First year of undergrad I struggled, obviously,
being half deaf. I didn't do the clubbing thing because
communication is impossible, Like you can't lip read when you're drunk,
and when people are drunk their lips don't move the
way they're meant to anyway, So yeah, I just have
no chance. Plus black lights flash or black room flashing lights. Yeah,

(12:12):
just no chance. So I was very isolated first year
and second year from other personal situations plus everything that's
built up. Beachy Head, which is a cliff close to
me in Eastbourne is where like a lot of people
jump off and they say goodbye, and the cliff became
my friend. And through the second year of undergrad I

(12:34):
realized that a lot of the philosophy that we were
being taught during my coaching degree was it was telling
me the same things that I'd been told all the
way through school. Everyone's unique, everyone's different. But it actually
gave me a point, a reason, at a purpose as to
why I was a little bit different. I mean, everyone's
different anyway. But it's not that I was doing things wrong.

(12:57):
It was just I was looking at the problems in
different ways, so I was tuning to different information. It's
the words I would use now, but I was looking
I was finding solutions to problems that the teachers who
were telling me were wrong, but there wasn't an actual
reason why they were wrong apart from that's not what
they wanted me to do. And that's what I struggled with.
Going through my degree. I recognized, actually, the problem isn't

(13:19):
with me. I'm not the problem for coming up with
these solutions that these teachers, these coaches, these people don't want.
They are actually the ones with the problem because they
don't like my solution. Why they don't like my solution,
I don't know. But I can't deal with that until
I asked. And that's what I started to do in
my second year, which I still do gets me in
trouble sometimes, but I ask a lot of questions because

(13:43):
if I come up with a solution that wasn't intended,
I want to know why it's not the intended solution.

Speaker 5 (13:51):
Yeah.

Speaker 1 (13:54):
What I find interesting about that is, so would you
say then that whatever it was in you know, in
your kind of upbringing and through the challenges that you'd
faith and you know the um beneath in the chromatic
experiences and everything else, you go through this process of

(14:15):
kind of like looking for meaning and reappraisal.

Speaker 3 (14:20):
And.

Speaker 1 (14:22):
You also are struggling. You know, you're struggling academically because
you've got a perspective that you feel, really feel quite
convicted by, and you know, really maps on with I
guess a worldview about who you are and how you
operate within the world. And you've got a load of
other individuals with a different set of facts perhaps or

(14:47):
a different set of theories, and you're kind of immediately
kind of grinding against those and that's obviously a major struggle.
But at some stage stage you have, I guess the
awakening that a lot of people have, and I include
myself in this, which is, you know what I was

(15:08):
right all along? So what was gnawing away inside me?
That just felt all kind of like like icky turns out.
So again, you know, I might I don't want to
be putting words in your lab but I when I
was listening to your story, I felt like I needed
to ask you that question. Is that sort of how
it transpired? Or is there a bit more to it?

Speaker 5 (15:29):
Yes?

Speaker 4 (15:30):
In a way, so my head, of course, Jim Wallace,
he's got a book which I've got in front of
me somewhere becoming a sports coach is the name of it.
But he wrote that book and it was published. During
my undergrad he used to say all the time, are
you going to take the red pill? The matrix analogy
used it all the time, take the red pill, take
the red pill, et cetera. And to be honest the

(15:50):
whole all the way through it. The first year, I
was like, Jim, I have no idea what you're talking about,
Like what you want about the red pill stuff doesn't
make any sense. But during my second year, when I
was going through this stuggles, and I started to recognize, actually,
if I start asking these questions, what is really going on?
Is it me that's wrong? Or is it then that's wrong?
And the more I started asking questions, the more I

(16:11):
actually ended up doing tutorials with Jim and speaking with
Jim outside of lecture time, and it was a collection
of my own experiences and a collection of the conversation
I had with him that it was sort of like
it wasn't I took the red pill solved. It was
sort of like I guess, dissolving dissolving in me over
like a couple of months, Like I took the pill,

(16:32):
I was like, Okay, let's ask these questions. And then
it eventually, after a couple of months, I sort of
recognized more and more these situations where hmm, I think
I'm right and you're wrong, and that's where the evidence
I started I went. I mean, I still do, went
heavily into research. I don't.

Speaker 5 (16:52):
I don't.

Speaker 4 (16:53):
When I was younger, I didn't talk. I was I
was very late in talking. My nan used to say
that he's always thinking, he's he's just thinking about the
right answer. And it's because I didn't want to be wrong,
partly because of my hearing. If I mis hear something,
I'm wrong and then I look silly. But I don't
like being wrong. And now when I say something, I
say something deliberately. There is a reason, there's a rational.

(17:13):
The science is the evidence behind what it is that
I'm saying. And asking these questions made me realize that
actually I need a rational as to why it is
that I'm right. I can't just say I'm right and
then you're wrong. I need a reason. And that's where
it moved from the constraints led approach to ecological psychology,
because during my degree, Jim's not going to talk about

(17:33):
ecological psychology to these people that still don't accept that
this is a view that's different from normal, So who
is using constraints? But I went, I want to go further,
I want to dig deeper. And that's where ecological psychology done,
a systems theory, and theoretical physics ended up coming into
this because that's where you end up going if you
go deep enough. So yeah, it was it was a long, yeah,

(17:57):
long process.

Speaker 5 (17:59):
I like that.

Speaker 1 (17:59):
And the idea of the pill dissolving inside you over
a period of time and potentially getting through the blood dream,
I really like that.

Speaker 5 (18:08):
Notping.

Speaker 1 (18:10):
There's an obvious question I need to ask as well,
which is obviously with losing your sight and the story
you told about, you know, the judgment of the ball.
Did that give you a particular insight and have you
subsequently come across research around the idea of perception action
that that particular impairment has sort of helped you to

(18:34):
understand in a slightly different way.

Speaker 4 (18:38):
It certainly helped me explore visual impairment more because instead
of it being very theoretical on an abstract, I have
an experience, like a lived experience of visual impairment. But
that's only my lived experience of visual impairment, because obviously
there are lots of different types and styles and constraints
of the type of impairment, whether it's narrow or broad,

(18:59):
or like blackout blind, or if it's just blurred, if
it's right side, left side, both eyes, etc. So it's
certainly given me a deeper understanding from my experience. But
when it comes to understanding the theoretical research and the
discussions about vision impairment, I don't think perception and action,
like my understanding of perception and action applied in practice

(19:20):
is really altered that much. But I do relate more
with those that do have visual impairments similar to those
with impairments.

Speaker 1 (19:29):
When I was listening to that story, you reminded me
of I don't know whether I was coaching this team
or not, I would probably player coaching this team. Particularly,
we used to have a player called Richard Higgs. Was
brilliant athlete. You know, he could really mate and he
used to play right back and he could just motor.

(19:51):
But every so often in the game he gets a
path made to him and he just miss it, and
no one could quite work out why because it's like
really quite skilled and all those sort of things, and
it was sort of a bit puzzling. And then after
a period of time we discovered that it couldn't see
out of his left eye, so the ball coming from

(20:12):
the left hand side and he couldn't see out with
left eye, so we switched him to left back, so
Ye had his right eye closest to the ball. Became
a world be to. But you never mentioned it to anybody.

Speaker 4 (20:26):
So it's interesting you said that I'm I'm right footed.
I'm right side dominant, so right handed, right footed. I
always played left back. I chose to play left back
and defense. I played in defense because then I could
I could see the play and I could roughly hear
what was going on. But what I found most of
the time when I was defending when I was younger,
is I was running back towards the goal. And if
I'm running back towards the goal and I'm playing right back,

(20:48):
obviously now my right ear, which is my deft, it
is close to the rest of my defenders and my goalkeeper,
so if they're shouting pass or man on, I can't
hear it. If I played right back, if I play
left back and I turn round to defense and I
can hear, so I actually chose to play left back
even though I was right footed, which confused everyone going forward.
I couldn't hear what the defenders were saying. But most

(21:10):
of the time when you're going forward, you're kicking the
ball down the line or to a forward player, so
it wasn't that much of an issue. So that was
that was my choice to play left back, even though
I was right footed.

Speaker 1 (21:22):
It uh well, So, I mean a good example I
think of, you know, adaptation. You know, I've talked a
lot on the show, as you know, about being born
with physical impairments lower limp, physical impairments, and how that
created adaptations in me that I think he gave me
kind of an appreciation of the game and the game

(21:43):
sense because I had to use that as a mechanism
to sort of make up for the lack of athleticism.
And I think that's the more I think about it,
there's more the more I talk to people about so
there's usually the often similar stories, and I think that's
often the journey people go on. It's probably one of
the reasons why you know, ecological dynamics kind of appeals.
It's that notion of adaptation into environments, and you know,

(22:05):
if you've had a lived experience of that, that becomes
quite powerful and it very much resonates in terms of
what you're doing in trampolining though. So you've essentially you've
taken the very brave step of embarking on making coaching
your career. You've taken on a facility you're a month

(22:25):
in and you're going to have people developing and bouncing
and all of that sort of stuff. I mean, that
is that is some undertaking. I am extrict well, I'm
partly envious and also partly what's the word, like, I
guess sort of I guess I'm fearful in some respects

(22:48):
because that's such a big thing to do, Like, you know.

Speaker 4 (22:52):
For clarity, So I don't own the facility. I'm still
renting the space because it's a multi sports court, just
because I know some people abroad I've spoken with other
trampoline coaches, they think facility or a gym is a
dedicated center, which in the UK is very rare. Even
the dedicated centers that are around for gymnastics and trampline

(23:12):
are really sort of just rented warehouses most of them,
or rented facilities. From schools or multi sports facilities. But yeah,
so it's certainly scary. And trampoline equipment is far more
expensive than football equipment, as you can imagine. I mean
the so for context Olympic trampolines, they start around four

(23:34):
and a half thousand thousand and they go up to
about nine and a half thousand for the trampoline. Then
you've got the safety equipment on the end, so you're
looking at about fourteen thousand for one trampoline setup. We've
got four. So I'll let you do the mats.

Speaker 1 (23:48):
On that you if you reminded me actually of again
why I think this is brave, right, So that's the
other word I have is admiration. That's not just admiration.
But you remind me of my wife who's just started
a business in the wellness space and she's created she's
had her own purpose built facility and she's got lots

(24:09):
of different spaces, but she's got lots of equipment purchase.

Speaker 5 (24:12):
And yes, you're.

Speaker 1 (24:14):
Tens of thousands of pounds down before you've even opened
the doors, which is a scary proposition.

Speaker 5 (24:19):
Right.

Speaker 4 (24:20):
Yeah, we've run three sessions three days, because we've got
sessions throughout that hours. But yeah, so three days, Day
four will be Friday, and I missed the third day
because I was in La.

Speaker 5 (24:35):
Anyway.

Speaker 1 (24:36):
So one of the things that I think is really
interesting is so you know, you, I think would describe
yourself as a practitioner who is ecologically influenced, you know,
and red pill taker, et cetera. Now, one of the
interesting things about individual sports is I think people can

(25:01):
generally understand that around the idea of ecological adaptation or
you know, environmental adaptation and constraints in team dynamics. But
obviously when it's an individual sport, people, I think small
begin to struggle to understand how you apply you know,
notions of skill acquisition and human development using straight to

(25:22):
that approach nonlinear pedagogy, et cetera, et cetera.

Speaker 5 (25:25):
I'd love to.

Speaker 1 (25:26):
Learn more about your practice and you know, how you've
honed your craft and all that stuff.

Speaker 4 (25:34):
I mean, to start with it, it's not easy for
I probably need to lay some sort of like background
understanding of trampoline, because trampoline, when I said, some people
think trampoline is garden trampoline. Some people think trampoline is
Olympic trampoline. But then you also have trampoline from a
rehab and therapy perspective, So it's I treat trampoline not

(25:58):
as a sport, which it throws a lot of trampoline
coaches away from me, like, well it is. It's an
Olympic sport. It's been competed since, like the Sydney Games
in twenty twenty. I see trampoline as a bouncy surface.
So the way I would describe East One trampoline is
I encourage individuals to explore movement on a bouncy surface,
whether that's an Olympic trampoline, a full four bed, six

(26:21):
four bed, a half inch bed, they're just different types
of like webbing, bouncy or not bouncy, different frames, different springs.
It's a bouncy surface. At the end of the day.
The movements that you can do on a trampoline, when
looked at it from the Olympic sports perspective, are very

(26:42):
I guess you'd say technique orientated. There are certain ways
that you do the thing to get high scores in competition.
The example that I use the most is a seat landing.
Everyone knows where a seat drop or seat landing is
most of the time you land on your bum, you
get back to your feet. But in Olympic trampolane a
seat landing, your legs are straight, your knees are pointing

(27:04):
to the ceiling, your toes are pointed, your hands are
by your size, your fingers are facing forwards, and your
back is up straight ish, and you're facing forwards. And
you go from a straight position into that seat landing position,
and you come back out to the to your feet again,
and you're pushing your hips forwards and all the bio
mechanics is how they coach it. But the way I

(27:27):
coach it is can you land on your bum and
get back to your feet? I don't really care how
they land on their bum because they will then figure
it out. And this is what I've done coaching individuals
of all shapes, sizes, sizes, ages, abilities, And instead of

(27:48):
so my approach, instead of putting them in the position
of the seat landing and saying land in that position,
I just asked them, can you land on your bum
and get back to your feet? Of course they make
mistakes to start with. They'll be leaning forwards, leaning backwards,
some will put their hands in the air, some will
put their arms out to the side. Some will cross
their legs because it feels more comfortable, but sometimes they

(28:09):
do it and you think, how in the world did
you do that? You should not have been able to
get back defeat like that, but they can, and that
for me is more exciting for trampoline because I'm wearing
the teacher. Actually, now, freestyle trampline, there's the garden trampolinists
do stuff that the Olympic trampolinists don't do. They would
never even think about doing because it doesn't make sense

(28:32):
and competition and it's not judged, so they wouldn't even
do those skills. They don't have names for some of
those skills. But the freestyles will do it because it
looks fun, it looks cool, Let's give it a go.
I'm not asking individuals to do quads, quints, sixtuples, sextuples
off of Cody's that No One insurance is a pain
in the bump for trampoline, so that wouldn't be possible.

(28:54):
But two, they're not physically ready to do that. But
instead of me, as the coach, saying you can't do
these skills, I ask them, can you try and do
this thing? Most people won't go on Champlaine and try
and do a double because they've recognized they can't do
a single. No, I'm talking flips it but traditional coaches
will say no flips. Why say no flips? That immediately

(29:19):
adds something in for most people to say, oh, I'm
not allowed to do that? Why not? And for me
as the individual when I was younger, I would ask,
well why not? Now I want to try and do
the thing. We at East One Trampoline. We haven't said
no flips to anyone, and the only people that have
tried to flip are the ones that have either done
it before and are comfortable doing it most of the
time it's not defeat, or the ones that have developed

(29:42):
and are learning to that point. So I don't add rules.
I don't add guidelines and constraints unless it's needed, unless
it's required. So when I get individuals coming in, I
give them a problem to solve, and when they solve
the problem, I then look at that and go, Okay,
how would I want that to be developed in some way?

(30:02):
If they want to compete, maybe we need to keep
it straight. If they don't want to compete, well can
we do it in a different shape? That no Olympic
trampolinist would do. Can we do in a touch shape,
a shadow shape, a pike shape, legs opposite directions. I
asked them, can you make a shape in the air,
not can you make a tuck, a pike or a straddle.
Some of them say, I'm going to make a ball
in the air. Now, the traditional coach would look at

(30:22):
that and go, that's a touch jump. But it might
not be a touch jump because their back isn't up
straight and they're all curled over. The ball curled over
like a ball. So the techniques that traditional coaches would
go through, which I'm doing, the coaching courses at the moment,
which they coach techniques the right way to coach these skills,
I'm not interested in that. And the other coach I'm

(30:45):
working with at the moment is struggling. I guess I
would say to come to GRIPS with this, because they
want the list of moves, they want the directory, the
glossary of skills. But seat landing is one skill. Seat
landing with bent legs is a different skill. But that's
not a skill that will be coached because it's not
part of the library. So yeah, there's there's a lot

(31:06):
of information. Now I'm going to stop to see if
you have any questions.

Speaker 1 (31:10):
Well, I love the nottion right from the start point.
I love the open of exploring movements on a bouncy thurpist.
If you put a human being on a bouncy thurpist,
they will bounce on it because it's inherently fun. And
it's a really like why the kids bounced on bed right,
you know, and ruined the springs on people's mattresses. It's

(31:30):
just fun, right, and and so I love the notion
first and foremost that the starting point isn't we're going
to learn this repertoire of skills because every one of
you five year olds here is one of you five
year old here is going to be an Olympic could
be an Olympic champion. So we're going to start teaching them.

Speaker 5 (31:51):
It makes me.

Speaker 1 (31:51):
It reminds me of debates I've had with people within
the aquatics world in quite import or decision making roles
around why do we learn the formal Olympic strokes when
we do learn to swim, Why don't we just learn
having amazing time in water that will not only enable

(32:11):
you to develop water confidence, but one day maybe save
your life. No, we learn twenty five meter this and
twenty five meter that, and this, that and the other.
And the reason is fundamentally the performance narrative that one
of these kids might be Michael Phelps.

Speaker 5 (32:25):
Well, I just think it's the.

Speaker 1 (32:26):
Wrong way to consider it, right, And so I love
the notion just as a reflection that you know, you're
looking at it through the lens of what is it
that's enjoyable about this experience from the get go, and
how can we use that as our starting point and
from there enable people to explore the various ways they

(32:48):
can move on this bouncy surface. What does it afford
them to use you know, our lingo?

Speaker 4 (32:54):
Yeah, yeah, and what So this is something that some
of the coaches are starting to recognized because I've been
coaching at a different club while I do my qualifications
and the rest of it, because British gymnastics is a
pain in the bum for pieces of paper, but I've
been coaching at another club and so a skill called
the swivel hips that's again one of those names in

(33:17):
trampoline that you need to know, which I don't describe
it as a swivel hips I would describe it as
land on your bum face the other way, land on
your bum and then face it well, stand back up again,
which is what it is. Seat landing after us, the
seat landing to feet. Traditionally, the way that it is
coached is you do your seat landing in your proper
seat landing position, and then you do your seat landing

(33:39):
to feet and making sure it's straight, and then you
do your seat learning to feet, and then the half
twist has to be straight, and you do all of
these progressions and then eventually you get to the seat
landing straight and you're looking like a straight jump in
the middle as a snapshot, and then you go back
down to the seat and that's what's drilled your You're
drilled in the seat seat to feet, seat, half twist
of feet seat, half his defeat seat, and then half

(34:01):
twist a seat. And it's just it drives me nuts
because if you say to someone, can you Andrew Obama
face the other way in landing your Obama again? They
will they will try and figure it out. Most of
the time they'll go around sideways, so they'll bring their
legs around sideways or rather than bringing them underneath them,
so what I do is they say, okay, well can
you do three in a row? So can you do seat?

(34:23):
Half the seat, half the seat? And they'll struggle and
figure it and they'll eventually work it out. Can you
do four? Can you do five? Can we get to ten?
And when they get to ten, the first two or
three is pretty straight because in order to keep going
you have to be efficient with the twist. So I
haven't told them you need to be straight. They figure

(34:45):
it out. Oh, it's easier. I put my legs under
my body rather than round. And I've got a girl
that I've been coaching now. She's profoundly deaf, so I
guess that's another thing I coach profoundly deaf people trampoline
the sign language. That's an interesting topic. But yeah, so
she came to me and she could do she could
land on a bump, get back to feat Just now

(35:05):
she's doing ten go see half to see ten times
and the first four looks like a competition. Ready swubble hips.
But I haven't told her anything about keep your legs straight,
point your toes, put your arms straight, any of the
biomechanical things that traditional coaches were told on her. I've
just said, can you get to ten? That was it.

(35:26):
But she's developed those skills from the task that I've
given out the problem that I've given at, which to
me proves it works, proves this coaching works. See, I
can see you're smiling.

Speaker 1 (35:40):
Yeah, because a couple of things there. The first thing
to say is the good news, Well, they might not
be good news for you because you're a little bit
late to the party, but the good news for others
or for you in your progression through coaching qualifications is
that a good friend of mine is the head of

(36:00):
Learning and Development of British Gymnastics, and not only it's
only been there about a year and he is one
of the most pioneering individual that I've had the pleasure
of working alongside and with, and is working hard on
bringing about a quite significant cultural change to coach education

(36:21):
in gymnastics. So sadly it might not it might not
impact quite at the time when you're looking for but
things are changing. So as you go through an ongoing
journey of learning within the sport, hopefully you're going to
see some changes coming in which would be really beneficial.

Speaker 5 (36:38):
So hopefully that's a good thing.

Speaker 1 (36:40):
You think I was just thinking. Just reflecting on though,
is when you said about this notion of working with
profoundly deaf participant, So is that a bit of a
special becoming a bit of a specialism, which is working
with they call them para athletes. They're not necessarily parathletes
because they're eight, right, But the point is, you know

(37:01):
kids with different kinds of impairments, particularly you know, audible visual,
those kinds of things. Are you is that going to
be a specialism of yours or has it just become
so because you have the lived experience that means that
you can resonate with these individuals.

Speaker 4 (37:19):
So I was asked this by someone from sport ed recently. Actually,
and the way I would explain the situation is because
ecological dynamics looks at the organism environment relationship, and I'm
creating problems. It doesn't matter who the individual is, what
their constraints are. They can still do the thing. So

(37:41):
it doesn't matter if they are hearing impaired, visually impaired,
or I've got individuals at least one trampoline that have
other I guess you'd categorize them as neurodiversities. I'm not
a fan of the term, but autism, ADHD, dyspraxia, and
they all still problem solve they are all learning. One

(38:02):
of the individuals that I've worked with has, according to parents,
struggle to focus. They can't focus or pay attention. They
don't listen, and I asked them to do I asked them,
can you land on your back and get back to
your feet? And they were doing that problem for about
half an hour, and their responsible adult said to me,

(38:24):
I've never seen them focus ever like this before. I
didn't tell them to do anything. I gave them a
problem that they wanted to solve, and then they tried
to solve it. So I'm not focusing in on specific individuals.
If anything, I'm doing the opposite. I'm making it as
broad as I can and making the problems as accessible

(38:45):
as possible so people can try and solve themselves. Granted,
working with profoundly deaf individuals does mean I need to
develop my own skills for communication purposes, and that working
with that individual came about me being engaged in the community,
in the deaf community locally. To me, I've been in
there for about six months ish, but that's me wanting

(39:10):
to learn more about how I can make the problems accessible,
not working on focused on the individual themselves. Like I'm
not marketing to an individual. It's just me developing my skills.
As I developed as a coach, my expertise grows and
so my ability to work with wide arranging individuals increases.

(39:31):
Hopefully that makes sense.

Speaker 1 (39:32):
Oh, Cloly, And I mean I think what you said
about you know, ecological dynamics looks at organism, environment hack
and it doesn't look at the movement that you must teach,
you know.

Speaker 5 (39:49):
So I think about.

Speaker 1 (39:53):
Coaches that have been brought up through this approach where
you know, you must teach the techniques in this way
to this group, and then they're faced with somebody, you know,
and that is all based on able bodied individual you know,

(40:14):
with you know, a full sensory repertoire. Right, it still
doesn't work for most of them. But anyway, you know,
we're still perseverly in for memories. And yet so you say, right, well,
ecological psychology, ecological times comes in it from an entirely
different perspective.

Speaker 5 (40:29):
Right.

Speaker 1 (40:29):
The other way, which is to say, let's consider the
individuals and let's explore what their movement repertoire looks like.
Given this set of circumstances and constraints right now for me.
And I've said this, and I sometimes think that I'm
I am, well, I'm definitely biased.

Speaker 5 (40:48):
I'm obviously biased, right But.

Speaker 1 (40:52):
In the work though that I've been doing both, you know,
in this beer and also in my what was until
Eily my day job, looking at inclusion, equality, diversity within
the world of sport ysical activity, and in particular through
coaching practice. You know, I've been an advocate for this

(41:13):
way of thinking about coaching and coach education because I
think it's fundamentally more inclusive. It's more inclusive for coaches
who have their own impairments, it's more inclusive for participants
because you're starting from an entirely different perspective from the
get go.

Speaker 4 (41:32):
I think an example that I'm thinking about right now,
I'm trying to work out how to explain this. So
the club that I was at there there was an
individual that turned up. They turned up with two carers.
They weren't entirely nonverbal, but the words that they used
didn't relate to the context of the conversation at all,
so it was very difficult to communicate. But they responded

(41:54):
to their names and this is in trampling. They were
at the trampoline scenario with another coach and all they
did was jump on the trampoline. They didn't do any
recognized skills because the coach couldn't coach them. I spoken
with the coaches. They just couldn't coach them. They couldn't
get the person to do it because they were trying
to tell them to do something, and this person was

(42:16):
just jumping around, not on the cross. By the way,
they liked the sound of the springs, so they did
traditionally what every coach would say, stay on the cross.
They avoided it like yeah. So they did the opposite
of what you were expecting them to do and didn't
pay attention to instructions. I worked with them with this
individual for about a month. The first session, it was

(42:37):
just understanding what the individual wanted to do, and what
I noticed is they would look so they spun around,
sometimes half turns, quarters falls. They could do two full
twists in one jump, which some people can't even do,
but this person could do this. And they looked at
me standing next to the trampoline when they got round

(42:58):
to that point, and then they carried on. So what
I decided to do in the second session is when
they were looking at me, I raised my leg and
touch my knee just with one and I did that
every time they sort of spun around. They saw me.
After three or four spins in this second session, they
copied me. So they copied me. They just started tapping

(43:19):
the top of their knee with so they're bending their knee.
I thought, okay, let's try and jump. So I mean,
I look pretty silly. I'm standing on the floor doing
essentially a touch jump on the floor. Every time this
person sort of spins round and sees me, everyone else
is looking at me confused, and then the person on
the trampoline does a touch jump and they are copying

(43:40):
what I'm doing. Fast forward a couple of other weeks.
They're doing star jumps, shaddle jumps, They're touching their head,
they're clapping in front of them because they can't they
can't put their arms above their heads, so they're clapping
in front of their face, again copying me. So that's
how I'm I wouldn't say I'm coaching traditionally any skills,

(44:01):
but they're exploring the movement, and that to me is
development because they're developing those skills, and they started doing
tuck jumps, shout of jumps as you'd recognize them, what more,
star as you'd recognize them by themselves. So instead of
just jumping from corner to corner, now they're doing some
other movements.

Speaker 5 (44:19):
Now.

Speaker 4 (44:19):
Haven't worked with them since, but that was exciting, and
some of the kids that I was working with as well,
they were they saw me doing that, and the last
session I worked with them, the kids were trying to
help this person on the tramplane do some other skills.
So the kids recognized what I was doing. I was
copying that because they saw what was going on. To me,

(44:40):
that's because the approach that I'm taking is different from
what the traditional coaches were trying to do instead of
giving instructions and using what the individual can see.

Speaker 1 (44:50):
So, I mean, that's an amazing story. And what I've
immediately thought of when you telling that was how you said,
I'm not coaching them traditionally. Definitely not coaching them traditionally
because the coach who would coach them traditionally couldn't because

(45:15):
the debt of parameters that they've been given, which is
really narrow, do not equip them for that particular that
particular individual. But what I really like is you we
don't know what that individual's action capacities are. They're not
able to articulate that necessarily in this particular case, and

(45:36):
you wouldn't necessarily know anyway, you know, Like all these
kids are different. They've all got different levels of maturation, confidence,
different experiences. They're perceiving the world in different ways. They've
got different ways of understanding their body in space because
of how they are anthropometrically made up. And only they
can can kind of tell or can show show an

(45:59):
tell you what their action capacities are. So I think
what I've heard, what I've heard from your story is
what you're doing is you're observing and then you're placing
a task via you know, a visual communication mechanism, which
is essentially, I'm going to do a movement. Can you
do that movement? That's the question you're posing to a
certain extent seeing if that invitation you know, it's an

(46:22):
invitation to action, isn't it. The invitation's taken up. The
invitation was taken up. That's interesting. Now we're getting some
information from the individual. It's purely visual at this point. Okay,
let's do something else and create a different task. And
what we're seeing is an individual growing in confidence and
exploring their action capacities on the bouncy surface, and over
a period of time that would develop. Now you didn't

(46:43):
You couldn't have done that any other way with that individual.

Speaker 4 (46:48):
No, I guess another example of coaching that I've experienced
over the I mean this is all within like a month,
well two months. So one of the profoundly deaf individuals
that I've worked with, they when I first saw them.
For those unfamiliar with the deaf community, obviously they can't hear,

(47:09):
so they are often quite shy, especially children that are
quite shy to engage. And when I first met this person,
they were hiding behind their mum, understandably, and it was
very much sort of nod every time the coach, the
traditional coach that I was working, so I was doing
sort of like a bit of an interpreter job. I
was new to sign language at this point BSL, but

(47:31):
I knew some traditional coach says something deaf person tries
to lip read and they go do understand and they
would say, oh yeah, yeah, Well they would nod and smile,
and after a couple of goes. I could see that
they had no idea what the coach was saying, so
I asked them do you understand? And she's like yes,
And I was like, no, do you really understand I

(47:52):
didn't say this, I'm signing this, And she's sort of
like shaking her head whilst trying to smile, So like, okay, no,
she doesn't understand, And over time we now have this
relationship where she can say I didn't get that, I
don't understand that. She feels confident enough to say I
don't understand that, can you explain that to me? And

(48:13):
I've actually heard this person's voice, and a deaf person
normally doesn't speak because they can't hear their voice a
donut and how loud it is or anything like that.
So over about a month and a half, I've one
improved the individual's abilities like confidence to just say no,
I don't understand, can you explain that?

Speaker 5 (48:32):
Again?

Speaker 4 (48:33):
Two to communicate with other people. So they're now actually talking,
well communicating via tex So they're writing a message on
the phone and then another person that's in the session
is writing a message on the phone. So they're communicating
with other people in the session, which is making friends,
which that to me, I'm like amazing. But also they
are confident enough to talk to me a hearing well

(48:56):
half hearing person, so that person just threw me. Letting
them explore movement and make mistakes has built up their
personal confidence because I'm not focused on you need to
get your feet in the right place, you need to
land in the middle. And I don't care as I
don't care what they're doing on the trampoline as long
as it's safe, which they are safe. But they're developing

(49:17):
personal confidence. So I'm not coaching the sport and coaching
the person, if that makes sense.

Speaker 1 (49:23):
Yeah, yeah, yeah, one hundred percent. And there's lots of
courses that you can do, you know, like the UK
coaching have got coaching the person.

Speaker 5 (49:31):
In front of you.

Speaker 1 (49:31):
And you made me think, actually, I don't know if
you know this. It's interesting. So Activity Alliance, which is
that you used to be called the English Federation of
Disability Sport an alliance of federated organizations that sort of
essentially look at a different impairment and they run a

(49:55):
course they wont of course, I think it was called
the Inclusive Activity Program Memory.

Speaker 5 (50:02):
I shouldn't know. I did won't it anyway, but.

Speaker 1 (50:07):
They And on that course, interestingly enough, is the STEP framework,
So essentially the constraints of space, task, equipment, and people,
and that apparently has been embedded within inclusive and adapted
physical activity for decades. So the constraints led approach has
been embedded within a kind of disability spot and adaptive

(50:33):
physical activity by necessity, and yet has never fully transit
well until relatively recently, has not really translated into mainstream
sport visical activity orb it is still not embedded. But well,
I think what you're the stories you're telling is about
how every individual different, whether they've got what you might

(50:57):
call a formal disability or not, They've all got different
action capacities. I've got really short legs and a really
long body and you know, and all those sorts of
things that creates different action capacities for me. I could
do particular gymnastics movements that other friends of mine at
university couldn't do, but they could run like the wind
and I couldn't. So we had lots of different things

(51:19):
and that. But so again, you know, so thinking through
if it, if it's good for community of individuals who've
got specific needs and in order to enable those needs,
we use a framework like the constrict led approaches, a
mechanism to create adaptive forms of activity and help them
explore through physical activity for themselves. Why would that not

(51:40):
be appropriate for everybody? It's the kind of genuinely the
tide that rises all both get my soapbox a bit there.

Speaker 4 (51:49):
Well, it's so. This is one of the things that
I've struggled with when I communicate with some of the coaches,
particularly in Tamplain, is when I say constraint, most of
them say they use those. I'm like, well, yes, you
do use those, because all coaching uses constraints to some extent.
It's what you're doing with the constraints and why you've

(52:09):
put the constraint in there in the first place, which
goes back to what I mentioned earlier about the other
coach I'm working with. They want a list, they want
a directory, or they want so thing thats they can
tick off to say we've done this skill, done it
to what extent to a zero deduction from a judge
or a three deduction from a judge, or a well
actually you just did it in a different way. When

(52:31):
do you tick it off? So the cards that I'm
currently using. These the problems that I'm giving out I
created very very basic. I just got a piece of paper,
laminated it and cut it out, so we've got like
small laminated cars for the trampolines. The kids can read
it and the parents can also read it and say, oh,

(52:51):
have you tried this? And don't remind me another story
which I'll tell you in a second. But the constraints
that are used instead of adding constraints because I need
to coach this skill, like the level one that I'm
doing at the moment for British Gymnastics, is said, okay,
you do this skill in the first ten minutes, this skill,
in the second ten minutes this skill and the third.

(53:12):
What I did with one of the one of the
groups is I asked them, can you do one a
landing a body landing half twist to a body landing,
so that could be bum half twist, a front front
half twist, bum seat like bum half twister back whatever.
Adding that half twist makes them have to figure out

(53:33):
where the half twist goes, and so for people listening
this may be difficult to try and visualize. But if
you're landing on your bum and you do a half twist,
you can roll over to your front or to half
twist back. You actually have to rotate forwards and half
twister back, so it's not just the half twist, but

(53:53):
you have to have rotation and they've got to figure
that out. And while I was doing when I had
this set up a seat roller, which is a categorized
skill is seat landing, full twist the seat landing or
land on your bum full tist, land and your bum.
And this task that I set up land body landing,

(54:14):
half twist body landing, someone accidentally did a seat roller,
which is a skill I'm technically not qualified to coach,
but the other coach in the room is, so insurance
were covered, but they accidentally did a very difficult skill
trying to explore something completely different, which to me shows
that when you add the constraints, you're actually restricting other

(54:37):
movements that may actually be harder. So a better skill
in trampolaine is constrained because you're coaching this easier skill,
which I don't think transfers to team dynamics as well.
That for me, when I look at traditional coaches and trampoline,
I'm thinking, well, are you actually blocking the talent to

(55:00):
the potential, whatever word you want to put there for
those individuals by coaching traditionally and not letting them explore
what comes naturally I use that word sparingly, but what
what they feel like they want to do. So, yeah,
seat full twist a seat rather than seat half tist
a front. I mean it's a progression skill. But I

(55:20):
didn't have to tell them, okay, now do a half twist.
But they just they just did it, and that to
me was exciting to see with.

Speaker 5 (55:30):
And the.

Speaker 1 (55:36):
What I was thinking about when you said that is
use the word naturally organically instinctively it emerged. If emerged,
there you go emerging self organized. So the constraint created
the self organization, albeit sometimes self organization goes beyond what
you think it might not natural. With used to use

(55:57):
that word again, you said there was another story going
to tell me you pique my interest?

Speaker 4 (56:02):
Yes, so I was one of the individuals I was
working with with these cards. They they struggle with following
instructions and they struggle with like doing things outside of
the time. So homework, for example, is not something that

(56:23):
they do. And once you've set them a task, they
will do the task. And because these tasks were open,
there were lots of different ways to complete them. The
parent of the individual actually said to me they started
coming up with solutions on the way home, so they

(56:44):
were voluntarily doing homework for the next session, which is
something they just don't do. And that to me shows
that it wasn't that they were doing the skill wrong,
like you've done the task wrong, you haven't completed it.
They did complete it, but they wanted to complete it
again in a different way, and they were they were

(57:05):
coming up with solutions to the skills that I hadn't
thought about as well. So not only have I got
this person doing something that they don't like doing normally,
but they're also working on the sport outside of training hours,
so they're interested. They're engaged in the activity, which for
me is lifelong activity. If you're going to get someone involved,

(57:27):
you want to you want them engaged outside. And that
I didn't ask them to do that. I didn't require
them to do that. It wasn't set. They chose to
do it, which for me is huge. I can't imagine
anyone at school going, I'm going to voluntarily do my
maths homework. Maybe some people will, but I don't know

(57:48):
many people that would, so for me, that was another
big sort of flag that says, I think I'm I'm
going along a good path.

Speaker 1 (58:00):
Interestingly, I think they might do their maths I work
voluntarily if their math teacher was a teacher who was
more say task led, created a problem that was maybe
just beyond their capability, and they were like, oh, I'm
really interested and I'm curious and I want to try
and solve that problem. But unfortunately it's not all that

(58:20):
way of it.

Speaker 4 (58:21):
Yeah, sadly, I agree. I agree. I think if if
teachers were to be more exploratory and allowed problem solving outside,
then then maybe a bit more. But I think the
school system has a lot of constraints that restrict teachers'
ability to be effective in education.

Speaker 1 (58:39):
A one hundred percent degree different, different conversation. Something else
you said earlier on that I think is I think
it's really interesting and h and by and by the way,
remind me to introduce you to fantastic look called Jack Roll, who,
funnily enough, I uh with with this week. He came

(59:02):
into the session at my club. So Zach runs the
coaching lab and then if you come across his stuff,
their cards that basically you give out to athletes and
they've got different kind of challenges and these sorts of things,
and it creates connection and all those sorts of things.

Speaker 5 (59:18):
I'll put me in touch with him because.

Speaker 1 (59:20):
It may be there's a collaboration there with some cards
specifically for prampolining, particularly with.

Speaker 5 (59:26):
Some of the audience groups that you're working with.

Speaker 4 (59:28):
But well, just look in, I've got some boxing coaching
cards next to me.

Speaker 5 (59:32):
So ah, there you go.

Speaker 1 (59:34):
Yeah, I think they've been yeah, and I've done similar things,
so yeah, it's a useful you know, from a task perspective.
I think it's a useful way, isn't it your point
earlier about constraints as well, By the way, I don't
use constraints. Everybody uses constraints, they just don't know that
they do. An instruction is constraints, you know. Verbal feedback
is a form of constraint. Everything is, even just the

(59:57):
way you raise your eyebrowsers a constraint sometimes to my
cost over a period of time. Going back to this
notion of a bouncy surface, so you said at the
start of this obviously maxive financial outlay to put the
amazing bits of kit in place. But given there's lots
of have you explored different types of bouncy surface as

(01:00:19):
a mechanism by which, for example, to enable people to
explore the movements, but maybe in a safer way or
with different kind of rebound properties.

Speaker 4 (01:00:30):
Yeah, I mean so with trampoline, you've got pushing mats,
which are small rectangular mats, so if you put those
on the trampoline, it cushions the trampoline. Then there's also
the big crash mats or end deck mats, and if
you put that on, it cushions it again. And when
you're doing skills, the pushing mats can of course then
be pushed in which adjusts the trampoline bounced the way

(01:00:51):
that it reacts. So we use those. All trampoline coaches
will use those to some extent. But there's there's other
types of trampolines that could be used. It's just a
case of finding space to store them. I would love
to have lots of different types of trampolines. Freestyle trampoline
uses what's called a five square, so it's a square

(01:01:11):
instead of a rectangle, and it's bigger and it's going
to get to In trampoline, you've got different feelings of
trampoline beds, so some of them can feel soggy. Essentially
you get more time in the trampoline. It's normally when
they're more used. Some of them can feel hard or stiff,
which is normally when they're brand new, and it's a
very quick rebound, so it reduces the time. So the

(01:01:36):
buancy surface. Because of the way trampolines are always shift
that they're always changing. If you were to go to
a competition, you'll have a different trampoline to the ones
you train at. Maybe you compete on a hard bed,
but you train on a soft bed because the ones
that you're training on are being used more. So the
surface is always being adjusted by the trampline themselves and

(01:01:57):
for those that are more attuned to the way the
trampolines react, actually the heat of the trampoline impacts the
reaction of the springs and the bed, which is why
in the Olympics they can they I think take time
to like let the trampline cool down or heat up
for appropriate jumping, but most individuals won't feel the difference.
So the Eastbourne trampoline we have what's called a four

(01:02:19):
four trampoline and then three six floors. But having asked
everyone that's been so far, no one apart from myself
could tell the difference between the four fours and the
six floors. I asked them which one's the bouncy one,
and everyone pointed at different tramplines.

Speaker 1 (01:02:36):
Yes, I was thinking as well, like one of the
things you see a lot of playparks nowadays is like
a trampoline sunk into the floor.

Speaker 5 (01:02:46):
It's just get on that straight away and they're they're bouncing.

Speaker 1 (01:02:49):
But I was also thinking about like whether and again
this is the constraints you probably have in terms of,
you know, what's expected and also what manufacturers make because
what's the market for. But you know, I was thinking
about like trampets. You know, which people traditionally use for vaulting,
don't they because it's a bit easier and all those

(01:03:10):
sorts of things, But like what utility could a trampet have?
And I know at the moment, most tramp I don't
know about whether they can be leveled off, and they can,
so you could bounce on a trampet.

Speaker 4 (01:03:22):
So I've got When I went to Barcelona recently for
the Freestyle World Championships, Freestyle Trampoline World Championships. I met
someone that's from so to Sili and they were out
there scouting for well, sort of scouting for individuals, and
I was talking with them about some of the shows
that they do. And obviously they have tramplines opposite each
other like put up as if there were two walls
and they jump between the two. Then you've got tumble tracks,

(01:03:43):
bounced tracks, or you've got like air mats across the floor,
whether it's a big square first a cheerleading or gymnastics,
or long tumble tracks for multiple tumbles, X shapes tumble tracks,
so all of those sort of bouncy surfaces is what
I would love to explore. The insurance is one big hurdle,
and then facility space is the other one. I guess

(01:04:04):
my long term goal, as it were, is to have
a dedicated facility. There are a few around in Europe,
a couple called Bounce Lab where they have like three
five square trampolines like six or seven Olympic trampolines, and
then some butterfly trampolines which you see in the circus,
and then some other air tracks and things. So there's

(01:04:26):
lots of facilities around for just bouncing on. But they're not.
They're not coach led, so there's no problems. It's just
go have fun, which it's not bad. It's just if
someone doesn't know what to do, there's no one really
assisting them as to where to go what they could
try and do. And that's one of the biggest I

(01:04:48):
guess limitations I found when people originally start on the trampline,
apart from the obvious things they've seen, I touch my
knees and keep my legs straight, turn half, turn full
land of my bam, landm front of my back. When
you say, can you do a half twist between these
or fur twists between these, or rotate forwards a quarter
or backwards a quarter those sorts of ideas, unless they've

(01:05:11):
been exposed to in some way, doesn't seem to come. Yeah.
People don't tend to explore those things unless they they've
seen it or they've been asked in some way to
explore it.

Speaker 1 (01:05:26):
Yeah, I can understand that. So if Ernest and Corelli
freestyle trampolining is different from Olympic trampolining in the sense
that Olympic trampolining has very sex moves that must be
performed in a particular way, whereas freestyle trampolining it's a
bit more like breakdown breakdowns breakdowns on a bounty surface
is or is that oversimplifying?

Speaker 4 (01:05:49):
Yeah, I think I think that's that's pretty accurate. I
mean a traditional In a traditional trampoline routine, you will
do ten skills, ten recognized skills which will be in
recognized shit i e. Tuckpike or a straight and most
of the time you will see forward somersaults with a
half twist or a one and a half twist or
a two and a half because if you do it
without it, it's called a blind landing, so a last

(01:06:11):
bit of the somersaut, you can't actually see the trampoline,
so you'll normally see, for example, way half out, so
two front somersaults with a half twist to start and
then to stay in the middle and to keep high
because there are two other metrics using competition. You then
go backwards, so maybe you do a double back somersault
or a half twist in to a double front somersault
half twist out, so half in half backwards rotation, so

(01:06:32):
backwards will be no twist or full twist or double
twist to avoid the blind landing, and it will be
ten skills. Most of them won't be to front or
to back because you want to keep your height. You
want to be as high as you can, because time
to flight is one of those schools. In freestyle trampoline,
you'll see between three and five skills, and you can

(01:06:52):
land wherever you want, however you want, whether that's on
your face, on your side, on your front, on your knees.
I saw some really odd hands and these positioning as
well in the World Champs. And in traditional it's half
twist or full twist. In freestyle you can quarter, you
can one and a quarter. You can wherever you want.

(01:07:15):
And because of the difficulty score in traditional, you won't
really see a quad because it doesn't make sense where
the way the difficulty in execution works. In freestyle, if
you don't see a quad, they wouldn't be competing. Like
a triple is expected. You're expected to do at least
a triple, then quads. Something else, which again separates these

(01:07:37):
is in traditional you have to twist one way. So
if I twist left, so left shoulder go back, right,
shoorlder going forwards, I twist left all of those ten
skills has to be left. In freestyle, you can twist left,
then twist right. And what you've actually seen, what you
saw this year is what was called a full unful full.
So they did three backs summersaults and three full twists,

(01:07:59):
a full two in the first, in the second and
in the third. But the first four twist was going left,
the second one was going right, so they changed twisting
direction midsummersaults and they went back left. So they changed
twisting direction twice. In traditional you're not allowed to do
that once, let alone twice, so you just wouldn't see
those skills at all. Ever, it's one it's not allowed,

(01:08:20):
and two it wouldn't make sense because of the the
way that the competition is judged. So freestyle trampoline looks
drastically different from traditional, and the names of the skills
are also completely different because they're all over the place.
They come up with the names of the skills sometimes
like the full unfulfall. That was the first time we've
seen it, so that's why it's called it. In traditional

(01:08:40):
they have baranis and fullbacks and rudies and yeah.

Speaker 5 (01:08:46):
What.

Speaker 1 (01:08:48):
How do you change twisting direction in mid air?

Speaker 4 (01:08:53):
That is a great question. I personally have never tried
it because I've always been coached traditionally. I I have
a video on my phone and I've watched it back
and forth and I've seen it. Basically, to twist, you
have to be on off axis, so you have to
put an arm up somewhere, or twist your shoulder back,
or do do something. There's some way that you twist.

(01:09:15):
If you just jump out, you need to initiate the
twist in some way, whether that's from the trampoline or
from you moving your body someway. When you're twisting. In
order to twist the other way, obviously you need to stop.
So when you watch the skill, he starts off twisting
with well, he moves his left arm back and he
keeps his right arm out, and then to stop, he well,

(01:09:36):
he brings his arm back towards his body. To stop,
he basically spreads his body out as big as he
can to slow the rotation down and then whips his
right arm back. So he stopped it by going big
and whipped his right arm back to start twistling the
other way. And then he's brought his arms in to
speak himself up and then to stop, he's opened his
arms out again and then put his left arm back.

(01:09:57):
So he's figured out how to do all this on
his god trampoline at home. Some of the freestyl has
worked out how to do a full unfull before. And
it looks different because they all twist slightly differently, whether
they're using their legs, their knees, their their feet, their arms,
their shoulders. Some of them use their hips so the
cat twists twisting. Some of them do it straight off

(01:10:18):
the trampoline to start with and then use their arms.
It's it always looks different, but any traditional coach would
look at it and go, that's messy. That's horrible because
there's not nice straight lines that you can judge. But
it's a movement that you just wouldn't see unless they're
doing this arms legs all over the place. Looks a
bit messy, but if you know what they're doing, it

(01:10:39):
looks extremely impressive.

Speaker 1 (01:10:41):
I'm interested to know if you are aware of whether
any individuals have kind of started out in a freestyle mode,
which sounds to me to be more exploratory, more self organized,
more peer to self taught, that kind of thing.

Speaker 5 (01:11:04):
Yeah, exactly.

Speaker 1 (01:11:05):
Yeah, it feels very similar like a lot of freestyle
sports are who have then successfully transferred into the is
it called artistics, it's just trampoline, just tapolining into what
we call traditional trampolining.

Speaker 5 (01:11:20):
Has that worked?

Speaker 1 (01:11:21):
Has that ever happened?

Speaker 5 (01:11:22):
Or the other way?

Speaker 4 (01:11:24):
The other way? A lot? Oh, okay, it's the other way.
So most freestyle trampolinists will never go to traditional part
too many foot rules, constraints, restrictions pointed toes. I mean,
you've got where liotard freestyle, you can what you want freestyle.
They are wearing like necklaces and earrings. In traditional you've
got wear litard and whites, which like plight trousers with

(01:11:46):
white socks can't be black socks, and you can't wear
any earrings. Yet, no freestyler will go to traditional, or
none that I know of anyway, but there are quite
a lot of traditional that go to freestyle because in
traditional trampoline, from my understanding of my experience, most most
people retire at like fourteen fifteen, They just stop for

(01:12:11):
various reasons. And I assume, so I'm gonna talk about
Ernest because most people that are into freestyle tramplin will
be familiar with Ernest he's the first person that did
nine summersaults in one jump, which is insane. He had
assist from other people jumping on the trampline, but he's
from traditional trampline. He started in traditional trampline at a

(01:12:31):
traditional club doing skills, but he was restricted by the
British Gymnastics. You can't do this skill because the coach
isn't insured or you're not safe enough to do these skills,
And like many others in freestyle, he basically said, okay,
I've got my garden trampoline instead. Then so he did,
and he wasn't let back into traditional for various reasons,

(01:12:55):
so he just followed freestyle. And so two of the
five finalists in the World Championships were from traditional and
went to freestyle because they wanted to do things that
you couldn't do in traditional, because there were too many
constraints in traditional, not necessarily the way the coaches were coaching,
but the way the competition encouraged the coaches to coach. Right,

(01:13:20):
in traditional champlaine, you've got four scores height, so higher
you jump, better the score. The more in the middle,
the better the score. The harder the routine, the better
the score, and then execution by judges, which if even
in traditional, good luck understanding what the judges scores are.
But those four scores mean that if you're doing a skill,

(01:13:40):
for example, say you're going to do a triple a
triple into a front landing and then you're going to
do a quad cody, that's not going to be high
because you've got a lot of the motion. The force
is going to rotate, so your time of flight score
is going to go down, which in a competition doesn't
make sense, especially as the next couple of skills will
also be lower. So the competition constrains the skills and

(01:14:05):
explosion of movement that individuals can do, which is why
freestyle competition is judged through difficulty and through creativity, which
is essentially a very flexible execution score.

Speaker 1 (01:14:22):
I mean, I love, I mean, I can kind of
see why you're not narrowing yourself necessarily to saying I'm
only doing freestyle amone in traditional because obviously you're developing
the capabilities to go either route if if an athlete
chooses to. But obviously the approach lends it the exploratory
approach lends itself to a kind of more freestyle world orbit.

(01:14:44):
I think the skills can be developed in both and
on that subject, we instead of wanted to really dig
into this a little.

Speaker 5 (01:14:50):
Bit, which was.

Speaker 1 (01:14:52):
I watched with you know fascination, Bryany Page's gold medal
at Paris and and she said in her interview afterwards
it might be the next day, and I think I
think it was her penultimate gill or you know, repertoire.

(01:15:13):
She she kind of felt that it wasn't quite right,
so it didn't set up for the final one, so
she had a much more difficult final one like planned.
But because of what happened, she adjusted and adapted and
did something slightly simpler and then like made it you know,

(01:15:35):
kind of perfect, which fundamentally gave her the kind of
score that she got and then you know, brought to
the gold. Now, I obviously, because I'm looking at that
with my worldview lens on and my ecological lens on,
what I heard was, here is an individual who has
developed a has developed a repertoire, but is enabled and

(01:16:02):
has enough attunement to where they are in time and
space and where they are in relation to the trampoline
itself to then make decisions in the moment whilst you know,
kind of twisting and revolving to be able to determine
the actions that they're going to take. And that, for
me is a highly skilled and highly adaptable athlete. And

(01:16:25):
I wonder how many of the athletes have that capability
I've given the ability to make those those decisions.

Speaker 4 (01:16:34):
I mean, a lot of trampoline iss that I've spoken
to I'm familiar with in the traditional world, at least
when they've got a routine that that is the routine
that they do, and a lot of them because that's
all that they train. If something goes wrong, you'll often
see people just stop elither stop the routine, or they'll
try and do a skill that from that position would

(01:16:57):
not work and they just crash. Crashes a term shues
and trampolininge a lot they would crash or bail out
because they haven't explored other opportunities for the routine. And
whereas in the freestyle world, I asked some of the
guys this, so I said me with my traditional hat set, oh, so,
what what's your routine or what's your combo for tomorrow?

(01:17:18):
And all of them, without fail said I'm going to
do this. I was like, but that's one. Oh, you'll
figure it out. I'll figure it out. What my traditional
head goes, right, this is my routine. If this doesn't work,
I'm going to replace this one with this skill, or
I'm going to have like a backup plan. They just
figure it out. They'll they'll throw one or two big

(01:17:40):
skills at the start and work out the rest afterwards.
And that to me is just at the time was
mind blowing. I was like, what do you mean, figure
it out? You're your compete. But that's how they how
they view exploring movement on a trampoline. They know roughly
what they're going to do when they're going to do it,
but some of them just decide, you know what, I'm
going to do this now. And one of the skills

(01:18:02):
that I saw in the semi finals of the men's
no one had ever seen it before, and it only
emerged because of the way that they landed one of
the skills. They landed one of the skills that was
meant to be to front so they could do a
Cody so front going backflip from front landing. Instead of
landing on the front, they didn't twist enough so they
landed on their side, so instead of rotating backwards, they

(01:18:22):
flung themselves round sort of like a it's called a
bowl or a washing machine sort of skill. So their
legs went round in a circle, almost making a circle,
which a bowl movement came from a cody, which one
you wouldn't try and do that. It just emerged because
that's what he felt like doing at that time. You're like, okay, Now,

(01:18:45):
in traditional Champlaine, that wouldn't happen because one you wouldn't
be you wouldn't be allowed to do the skill and
the routine would be terminated. But also you'd have a
prepared bail skill. And I imagine because I think Briani
was doing a miller at the end and did a
full four or something. I can't remember exactly, but essentially

(01:19:06):
it's a very similar skill, just reducing the twists. So
in traditional because you're limited with that library, that dictionary
of skills, there's not as many opportunities to do things
like you can't repeat the same skill, for example, So
if she had done the same skill at the end
as she did somewhere in the middle, she wouldn't have
got the difficulty for that skill, so she's immediately restricted

(01:19:26):
with what skills you can actually do, and when you're
familiar with trampoline, you know, okay, I've only actually got
the choice of doing these two skills right here, or
these three skills. Most people aren't going to throw a
harder skill if they're messing up, so it'll be the
simpler one. For example, for me, if I don't land
a barani correctly for a double back, I'm going to
do a single. If I've already done a single in
a straight in a pike in a touch shape, then

(01:19:48):
I'm going to have to try and do something else.
So I would have to add a half twist or
something if I don't have the double back, or I
just fucking hope.

Speaker 5 (01:19:58):
But interesting you made me think of some.

Speaker 1 (01:20:01):
Research that Keith David has done in diving, talking about
when you mentioned how traditionally when trampolinists are practicing and
if they get the movement wrong, they bail out and
crash or they do whatever. So in this research in diving,

(01:20:24):
obviously lots of parallel Often what would happen is springboard diving.
It was springboard diving the divers in their practicing when
they're practicing, if they got the board takeoff wrong, they
would just abort the dive. And so what the ecological
practitioners did was say, actually, that's a constraint, which is

(01:20:46):
you're not allowed to abort the dive. And it's based
on this idea that they'll you have to be able
to perform a dive without a perfect takeoff. So why
would you be only practicing for the perfect takeoff that
It strikes me there's some similarities here, which is, if
you were bought, don't get me wrong, if you're completely wrong,
I suppose you have to abort the safety. Right, that's

(01:21:09):
a safe crash, Yeah, a safe crash. But in general,
the principle should be to try and land and continue
with something else in principle.

Speaker 4 (01:21:21):
Right, yeah, yeah. This is one of the restrictions that
I've seen, partly because of health and safety that came
into trampoline, but also because of the way coaches coach
is when you're drilled these skills. So to share some
experience of my training, I was when I was doing somersault.
I can still do somersaults, but when I was being
taught somersaults, I would do from the cross three or

(01:21:42):
four bounces. I do an arm set, so put my
arms down and land with my arms up, and they're
going to do a tup back somersault. And I would
drill that until I have the perfect ideal technique. But
in a routine, if that's skill too, and I land
slightly forwards from the cross, well, if I do that exact,
that exact movement, I'm now going to from just in
front of the cross two miles behind it, I'm gonna

(01:22:03):
have to adjust my body. But if I haven't trained
or practiced slight in front of or behind, or slightly
left or right of the cross, my routine's going to
look a mess, which it did after two or three somersaults,
and having only trained individual somersaults, it looks a mess.
Which is why when I'm developing routines at the moment
with individuals, I'm not encouraging them to work from the cross.

(01:22:28):
I just want them to link skills. I don't care
if you're going from side to side wherever. Just get
used to linking those skills. And one of the things
that my mum when she was trampling when she was younger,
if you went traveled forwards in a front somersault, for example,
instead of telling, instead of the coach telling her, no,
you need to stay on the cross. They would ask

(01:22:50):
her to move forwards, and obviously if she then moves
forwards whilst having already started in front, she could fall off.
So she recognizes, oh, I need to not go forward much,
and if she still goes forwards, the coaches on move
forwards and you could eventually get to the point where
your toes are starting right on the edge of the trampline.
Their coach is saying right now to a front somersault,
and you're like, okay, I'm going to smack my hips

(01:23:11):
backwards so that I don't fall off. And that's the
constraint the coach was added. Health and safety came in
and said you can't do that. So it's frowned upon
by a lot of people. But trying to use that,
say from the HD line, which is a line just
behind the cross, instead of stay on the cross, and
it's trying to use the trampoline differently with a constraint.

(01:23:34):
I guess you could say, rather than just this verbal
instruction of stay.

Speaker 1 (01:23:38):
In the middle, make me think that learning trampoline training
trampoline need to have more markings on them to act
as the place you know to Again, I'm thinking of
equipment constraints immediately so that you can do that but
within the bounds of safety.

Speaker 4 (01:23:56):
So something that I've explored briefly. I've only been doing
a few bitter times and it's hard to do my
own thing with other coaches in charge is putting soft
toys on the trampline and saying avoid the soft toys
because as you jump, they're going to jump. And it's
not a technique, it's not a skill. It's their awareness

(01:24:18):
of the trampoline and how to move around the trampoline
dodging these things something that I've used and I've actually
seen used in Portugal quite a lot. I did. I
went to an international and training camp out in Portugal
a couple of months ago, which I've been to as
an athlete before, but I went as a coach and
I spoke to a lot of coaches and they use
skipping ropes, so they ask people to skip on a trampoline. Obviously,
skipping on the floor you get a rhythm. On a

(01:24:39):
tramplane you're jumping, so the higher you jump, the slower
you need to push the rope or you instead of
going one rotation you do two and you have to
make that decision. And they use skipping ropes like actually
skipping on a trampoline to build up rhythm and familiarity
with the trampoline to start with. I thought, oh my god,
they're gonna like fall over there and I whip their legs.

(01:25:01):
They're gonna No, no, it just doesn't happen if you
hit your leg. You just let go of the rope,
which I realized as soon as I've tried it and like, oh,
that was silly. I shouldn't have done that. You just
let go. And having spoken to all of the coaches
that use it, there was only one person that said
that they had one accident with the skipping rope, and
that's because the person was trying to do something moving

(01:25:21):
forwards with the skipping rope, and it wasn't the skipping
rope's fault. It was just after they'd landed, they then
decided to jump forwards. Like, that's not the skipping ropes
ropes problem. That's the person thinking, oh, yeah, I'm going
to be funny and do a flip onto the end
deck and miss the end deck. So the skipping rope,
even though it looks dangerous, and scary. It's not. And

(01:25:44):
it encourages exploration of this rhythm on a trampoline, and
you can do it with routines as well with skills.
But I tried it, and as a traditional trampolineist, it's
so boring. I'm going to talk.

Speaker 5 (01:25:57):
About it quick.

Speaker 1 (01:26:06):
So I have even more admiration because not only are
you embarking on this kind of journey of you know,
working full time in the coaching space and doing so
in a rented facility with significant financial outlay in order
to get yourself started, You're also doing it using an

(01:26:28):
approach that is completely alien to the culture of the sport.
You're like a challenge, don't you.

Speaker 4 (01:26:37):
You could say that, yes, yeah, I think I I
mean this is this is something that I'm I don't
know whether I want to say I'm proud about it,
but I don't think there is another trampoline I don't
want to I don't like the word club because I
don't think East One Trampoline is a club because we
don't focus on competition. But I'm going to say club.

(01:26:59):
I don't say that Eastporn Trampoline Club. The club that
we've got has a culture or vibe like any other
and that was something that Adam said in the first session.
So Adam actually came to East Porn Trampoline to talk
to me about using trampoline potentially for the boxes for
strength and conditioning, which I've used trampolines before, putting a

(01:27:19):
mat on it, and running on a trampoline with a
mat on it is extremely tiring because obviously a trampoline
isn't a floor, so you have to try harder. And
he turned up with his kids, and his kids had
a go in the free trial, and at the end
of it, I think it was it was the biggest
compliment he could have given me, was he said, I
like the vibe like it wasn't It wasn't a oh,

(01:27:42):
the coaches are in charge, or there's loads of rules here,
or you need to be safe, or this competition or
just jump about and mess around. The vibe was inclusive,
it was engaging, and because of the oddness weirdness of
everything else that's going on, it doesn't feel like a
sports club an organized sports card. It is organized, of course,

(01:28:05):
but it doesn't feel like it. And one of the
other tools that I'm playing around with is a traditionally
extreme performance tool. It's a time of flight machine you're
using in competition. What's your time of flight for this
ten bounce routine? That's your score? Okay, can we get.

Speaker 5 (01:28:21):
A high higher?

Speaker 4 (01:28:23):
I've gone forget about all of that, obviously. What's the
highest you can jump?

Speaker 5 (01:28:28):
That?

Speaker 4 (01:28:28):
That's what most of the most of the boys that
I've experience when they get in a champlaine. Can I
jump really high? Okay, well, here's the actual number. I'm
not interested in telling them. Okay, you need to keep straight,
you need to wait for the depression of the trampoline.
You Benjani's and swing your arms up in front of you,
and make sure. I don't tell them how to jump high.
I just show them the number and say, okay, that
one was lower. Sometimes they feel like it's higher because

(01:28:49):
they were in the air longer, but they went from
the back of the trampoline to the front of the trapline,
so it wasn't up, it was more forwards. And the
number helps them explore going higher. And something I'm gonna
I guess tell us secret as it were, something that
I'm working with the developer of or developers of the device.
It's called a veriflight machine. Is the ability to have

(01:29:11):
accumulated time, so you know, you get like a cycle
the distance or run the distance to Paris or wherever.
It's like a fundraising thing. When trampoline, those don't really
exist because you can't measure accumulated time of flight. But
with this device you can at the moment it stops
at idle, but you can. So what that allows me

(01:29:33):
and us to do is then say, okay, as a team,
we are going to try and jump to the moon.
And again it brings in something that's a community led.
It's fun, but everyone can do it. It doesn't matter
whether you're jumping like half a meter off the trampoline
or six meters off the trampoline. You're still adding to that.
So it's everyone jumping up high. And again it's just

(01:29:56):
exploring movement and use it a performance tool for a
inclusive recreational purpose. Is again one of those I wouldn't
say groundbreaking, but like breaking breaking traditions, breaking rules, breaking expectations.

Speaker 1 (01:30:15):
I mean, and I love that. And you talk about
playing around, I mean it sounds to me as well.

Speaker 5 (01:30:22):
You talk about the vibes and very playful, and.

Speaker 1 (01:30:26):
I feel like you're very much aligned to the campaign
that's running at the moment called Play Their Way, very
much driven by this idea of bringing playback to young people. Danny,
I could talk to you for hours. I'm constrained by time.
I've got a club committee meeting to attend, which I
really don't want to do, but anyway, I'm going to

(01:30:46):
go along anyway, because in my capacity as club chair
one has these.

Speaker 5 (01:30:51):
Kinds of duties.

Speaker 1 (01:30:54):
Time to be honest, no, and you know, I definitely
would love to do a probably love to do a
follow up. I'd love to see how your journey is
and how you're going and all those sorts of things.
Some people might be interested to reach out. I wouldn't
be surprised, and they might also want to consume me content.
So give me all your particulars so that they can
find out where you are.

Speaker 4 (01:31:13):
I mean, I try to make things as simple as
I can. So my name is Danny Hatcher, and I
am Danny Hatcher everywhere, whether that's on Twitter or x
whichever you prefer, Facebook, Instagram, YouTube. The other channel that
I have, which you mentioned is Danny talks Tech. You
should be able to find it on the Danny Hatchet
channel anyway. So yeah, and then obviously Eastbourne Trampline is online.

(01:31:35):
You can search me up on the Internet. I was
going to say Google, but you might being it or y'aho.
It's so the Internet.

Speaker 1 (01:31:44):
That's been a fascinating conversation and I've thoroughly enjoyed it.
I'm glad we could make it happen, and thank you
for your perseverance dealing with my scheduling issue, and absolutely
all the best for the future with the club. It
sounds like it's going to be really good fun.

Speaker 4 (01:31:58):
Yes, well it is good fun and hopefully it continues
being fun.

Speaker 5 (01:32:03):
Okay, brilliant, appreciate it. Thank you.

Speaker 2 (01:32:10):
Thanks for listening to the Talent Equation podcast. If you
like the show, then please consider supporting it by leaving
a review on your favorite podcast player, telling your friends
about it, or even becoming a hero and show your
appreciation by becoming a patron. Just head over to the
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"I don't coach trampolining...I help people explore movement on a bouncy surface" - a conversationDanny Hatcher

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.css-14f5ked{margin:0;word-break:break-word;display:-webkit-box;-webkit-box-orient:vertical;box-orient:vertical;-webkit-line-clamp:2;overflow:hidden;}"I don't coach trampolining...I help people explore movement on a bouncy surface" - a conversationDanny Hatcher