"Kindness is infectious, we never know what kind of impact we can have on another person" - a conversation withTroy Urdahl

Troy Urdahl is an award winning high school athletic director, a hall of fame coach and a college professor with more than twenty years experience in leadership and coaching. He is now an accomplished author of a fantastic book called 'Chasing Influence' which uses storytelling as a means to put forward lessons about leadership. 

Troy shares his journey from a sports-filled childhood to advocating for multi-sport participation, and delves into the philosophy of coaching with an emphasis on 'why' we coach and building life skills through sports. We talk about the balance between high expectations and support, the power of resilience, and the significance of 'soft skills' in coaching. Additionally, discover concepts like the Finnish notion of 'Sisu' (which roughly translates into 'never giving up'), allyship in sports and Troy's thoughts on the universal value of creating a culture that prioritises relationships over winning.

Hope you enjoy. 

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Episode Transcript

Speaker 1 (00:00):
Hi everyone, Stewart here before we get into today's podcast,
I wonder if I can ask you to do me
a favor. I'm hoping that I can get the podcast
to grow to a wider audience. But further it goes,
the more people that it can impact. I often get
letters of messages on social media from many of the
listeners who often talk to me about the impact it's
had on them and the people that they work with.
Sometimes that impact goes as far as family members and

(00:23):
relationships that you hold. I'm hoping that I can get
that message out call wider audience. Now. Obviously, the more
people that listen, the more impact the show can have,
but also the more people that subscribe and download, then
that helps me to invest in the show and put
out more content. As you know, my podcasting of late's
been a little bit sporadic, say the least, and that's
partly due to the fact that I've just been struggling

(00:43):
with capacity. Now I'm hoping to be able to enlist
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(01:04):
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the Dog. I want to do some live streamed episodes
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(01:26):
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(01:46):
you know and if you find some value in it,
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Thanks in advance via support.

Speaker 2 (01:55):
Welcome to the Town Equation Podcast.

Speaker 3 (02:00):
If you are passionate about helping young people to unleash
their potential and want to find ways to do that better,
then you've come to the right place. The Talent Equation
podcast seeks to answer the important questions facing parents, coaches,
and talent developers as they try to help young people
become the best they can be. This is a series

(02:21):
of unscripted, unpolished conversations between people at the razor's edge
of the talent community who are prepared to share their knowledge, experiences,
and challenges in an effort to help others get better faster. Listen, reflect,
and don't forget to join the discussion at the Talent
Equation dot co dot UK.

Speaker 2 (02:43):
Enjoy the show.

Speaker 1 (02:57):
Well, once again I start the podcast recording with an
apology because again my guest has been very patient with
my scheduling challenges, but delighted to be joined by Troy Erdahl. Well,
we've just been going through the pronunciation of that maybe
we'll even talk about where it comes from. But Troy,
glad to have you here. I'm glad we're having a conversation,

(03:20):
and it'd be great to maybe just tell me your story,
tell me how you got involved in this whole game
in the first place.

Speaker 2 (03:28):
Yeah, it's great to be with you. Thanks for the opportunity.
Sports have been an enormous part of my life ever
since I was a child. My grandfather's a Hall of
Fame teacher coach. My father's a Hall of Fame teacher coach.
So whether I ever wanted to get involved in sports
or not, it was probably preordained that I would be

(03:48):
involved in some way. I'm the youngest of three boys,
and it's how we spent our time as kids, and
I think how we did that looks very different than
kids today. I grew up in the middle of farm country,
in the middle of Minnesota and the States. Right across
a dirt road was a cornfield, and we spent our
days playing. I was lucky enough in high school to

(04:11):
play three sports. I was a football, hockey, baseball guy
in American football, and then in college I was able
to play the same sports. I think it was in
college when I realized, you know, I love sports, I
love education. I still have a passion for history, and

(04:35):
it made total sense that I would continue doing that,
and so pursued an education in teaching and coaching and
was lucky enough to find a wonderful mentor and coach
who took me on as a young head coach, and
have been a high school baseball coach for the last
twenty five years. Along the way, some different job changes

(04:56):
within the same building, but I'm the activities director now
and I've been the activities director for the last twenty years.
That means I helped coordinate all of our coaches and
all of our programs. Through doing that, I've had some
wonderful experiences, and usually it's been from raising my hand.
Just by volunteering and putting myself out there. I've been

(05:18):
able to serve in a number of different capacities for
some of our local and national organizations. I was able
to have been able to coach internationally, and I was
able to write a book about coaching and leadership. So
it really has defined and then redefined and continues to
sharpen who I am and the life I live as

(05:40):
a person and as a leader.

Speaker 1 (05:43):
Well I've really I've really enjoyed the book, and I'm
definitely keen to talk about it a little bit. But
before we get into that, I was interested that you're
one of the few athletes that managed to stay multipot
through school and into college. Like normally you have to specialize,
don't you.

Speaker 2 (06:04):
It's becoming the norm without questions, becoming the norm, and
I don't. I don't think that's a good norm. Uh.
It's the way it is.

Speaker 1 (06:13):
Uh.

Speaker 2 (06:13):
And and I think that it's a mouse service to
our youth and to our to our kids and athletes, uh,
and to our coaches to push a single sport or
a single program. I think we're seeing more injuries because
of it. I think we're seeing a reduction in athleticism,
and I actually think that we're seeing a lesser or

(06:37):
poorer quality of play because of it. We just have
less less people participating now, and that's that's I think,
creating a wider gap between the elite, the best of
the best, and then the average. I think that gap
continues to grow in large part because of specialization.

Speaker 1 (06:55):
Mm hmm. Also, you mentioned that you're an activity director.
How many coaches and all fats do you have under
your card.

Speaker 2 (07:08):
We're a pretty mid sized public high school where I'm
coming from, and so we're about seven hundred, seven hundred
and fifty students in grades nine through twelve, so pretty
mid sized, but we offer about as many programs as
most larger schools would. And so in our instance, between

(07:28):
paid and volunteer coaches, we're probably around seventy five to
eighty something like that, and then probably about two thirds
of that would be paid staff. So aroun on fifty
paid staff.

Speaker 1 (07:43):
Members, and then how many sports are you offering?

Speaker 2 (07:47):
Twenty seven sport programs?

Speaker 1 (07:52):
Just amazing, I have to say, Like it never ceases
to amaze me. I like love hearing about kind of
the way sports organized in the US. You know, our
schools just don't have anything like that. Kind of Okay,
that's not quite true. The private ones be paying would

(08:13):
be they'd have more like that kind of level of straffing,
but certainly not in the In the public school, it's
generally speaking done by the teachers who are doing stuff
sort of out of school hours to speak. But yeah, amazing,
I mean activity.

Speaker 2 (08:28):
It's a wonderful model. It's a wonderful model.

Speaker 1 (08:30):
Activity director sounds like the best job in the world.

Speaker 2 (08:34):
I actually use that line. I do say that that
it is the best job in the world. And I
say that about coaching too. When it's done right, When
it's done right, it is. It can also be the
most difficult and frustrating job in the world. But when
you have your priority straight and when you are operating

(08:54):
from from purpose, and when things are going well, it
is the greatest job in the world.

Speaker 1 (09:01):
Tell me that. That's an interesting conversation, I think, and
I think one of the things that people struggle with
the most. I struggle with this a little bit as
a kind of you know, I'm the managing director of
a community sports club or a single sport club, and
I've got what have I got now, fifteen twenty coaches
that have under my kind of umbrella. Some of them

(09:23):
are lead coaches, not all of them necessarily have the
same philosophy, and sometimes that can be a little bit challenging.
How do you deal with that sort of diversity And
not say diversity is wrong, by the way, but sometimes,
you know, sometimes things can be misaligned, shall we say, culturally,
and then that can be a little bit destabilizing. So

(09:44):
how do you deal with that kind of dynamic.

Speaker 2 (09:47):
There's a lot of angles on that question. It's a
really good question, and it's in fairness, probably where much
of my career's work has been, because what you're talking
about is also culture. I think it all begins with
understanding our why and knowing our purpose and why we're coaching.
I think that's where it begins and why we exist.

(10:09):
I mentioned a second ago the advantage of the system
that the States has, and when I say the advantage,
there are certainly there's certainly some difficulties as well. But
one advantage, without question, is that we're tied to an
educational mission of a school. Therefore, our programs in my view,
and I'm not saying that this is viewed the same

(10:30):
way everywhere. In my view, our teaching and learning just
like a classroom, and that our coaches are teachers and
that our athletes are learners. And when you approach it
that way and when your purpose in my case, my purpose,
why I show up every day and the job I
do is to make the world a better place through sports,
because I truly believe that if we do it right,

(10:51):
we can make the world a better place through sports.
And I do that by working alongside others to fulfill
their purpose, because then I can't do it alone, right,
That would silly. None of us can do it alone.
And so it's about building that culture about what we
do prioritize and what is most significant and what is
most important to us. I think if we don't ask
that question and if we don't have that conversation, the

(11:13):
fill in the blank answer becomes winning. And for me,
it's so much more than that. As coaches were the
most competitive people in the world. We want to win
so badly, but that has to that could be a start,
That can't be an end. That can't be an end.
So when you talk about goals, winning is always going

(11:34):
to be there. But when you talk about why we
exist and what our function is and what our purpose is,
it needs to be something deeper and something greater. And
so collectively, our school and our coaches work to capture
the heart of every one of our athletes. That's what
they do. They want to capture the heart. And when
I say that, they're teaching the life skills of hard work, empathy, attitude, respect,

(11:55):
and teamwork that spills heart. But they're also focused on
the relationship because they know that the impact that they
have on their athletes probably isn't going to be seen
for years or even decades. And as we talk about
the critical mass, you know, we want to coach all
one hundred percent. We don't just want that ninety seven

(12:15):
percent who aren't going to go play a college sport
or go play professionally. And we don't want just that
three percent that we're trying to connect with and build
that relationship and ultimately build the life skills that are
going to help them for the rest of their life
because we're connected to teaching and learning.

Speaker 1 (12:31):
I love the acronym het. Did I miss that in
the book? Is that in the book?

Speaker 2 (12:36):
Yeah, it's in there.

Speaker 1 (12:36):
Yep, I think I did.

Speaker 2 (12:39):
There's a lot in there. Yep, there's a lot in there.

Speaker 1 (12:42):
I thought i'd seen it. And is that just something
that you came up with? Is it a school credo
or is it just something that you've lived by?

Speaker 2 (12:50):
All of it? All of it?

Speaker 1 (12:52):
Okay, yep.

Speaker 2 (12:53):
That is our collective purpose. So as a school we
embrace that. As a matter of fact, I probably have
a nice shirt somewhere right around here that all of
our staff has that has that logo on it to
capture the heart of all of our participants. Certainly as
a leader. It's something that you need to live and model,
and it's something I connect very personally with and it's

(13:15):
something I think that has changed in me and I've
learned over time maybe it's become more intentionality or more
purposeful the understanding. And I think that's the pedagogical change
in coaching that we've seen throughout generations, and we still
see relics of it today, but I think now in
twenty twenty four, we understand and realize that we need

(13:37):
to have relationships with our athletes, and we need to
have connections with our athletes, and our athletes want that.
So whether the coach wants it or not, it's what
what our athletes want.

Speaker 1 (13:50):
That love that. Well, we've already segued into the book,
which is great and actually the place I was going
to start with this notion of finding you why So
obviously one thing to like actually about the book is
and I'm going to shamelessly like plagiarize the life out
of these You start in every chapter with a really
nice quote. You obviously got one from Carl Rodgers. Here.

(14:10):
A good life is a process of the state of
being it is a direction, not a destination. So I
really like that and I think it sets up this
notion of finding you Why But before I delve into
the specific chapters, just talk to me about the genesis
of the book and kind of what was your driver
for creating it and what are your hopes for it

(14:31):
in terms of I think you probably had an audience
in mind, so I'd be interested in hearing about that.

Speaker 2 (14:37):
I never signed it right the book. I never thought
I went. However, for the twenty years that I've served
as an activities director, we've always been very intentional about
using life lessons to learn through sport, and so we've
done weekly lessons where as the activists director, I would
work with our coaches, and our coaches would work with

(14:59):
their athletes about specific themes and lessons to learn from. So,
without really knowing it, over the course of twenty years,
I was building a pretty extensive library of lessons. And
it was when I was sitting. When I was sitting
it kind of when COVID had that lapse, I don't

(15:20):
know if laps is the right word, but when we
were finally able to travel again, when the lockdowns started
to let up, a little bit my family took. We
were really excited to take a trip together, and we
went to Mexico and it was on the beaches of
Mexico where I got this idea of Wow, if I
had the right transformational coach, I could start weaving these

(15:45):
stories together. And then as I was reading another book,
I was reminded that a mentoring figure of mine had
actually batted against Satchel Page when he was younger, and
so the legendary Negro League player and then Major League
Baseball player Satchel Page, he had played against him, and
I thought, well, he has a really neat story. Maybe
if I take a fictionalized version of him, he could

(16:07):
be that transformational coach that carries that's the thread that
carries the story through. Well, lo and behold. I end
up getting quarantined in Mexico. So I got COVID somewhere
along the way in that week, and I got stuck
in a hotel room without my family. They were clear,
they didn't they didn't test positive, and so they went

(16:28):
home and I spent a week outlining what it could
look like and what it could become. In the end,
you know, I couldn't be happier with the product, and
what I was trying to do ultimately is sport. And
so many mentoring and caring figures have given so much
to me in my life. If in just some small

(16:49):
way I could give back, it was going to be
a success and happy to say, Like I just got
a cardon mail yesterday from someone I don't know about
the impact that the book had on him and his coaching,
that all by itself is success for me.

Speaker 1 (17:07):
Yeah. I mean, you can tell it's written like that,
And that's one of the things I was going to say,
is the method of essentially using storytelling or parable as
a way of getting across the message. You know, that's
the way humans have learned through the MILLENNIU So in

(17:28):
lots of ways, that's what makes it so engaging. It
made it difficult for me with my ADHD because I
couldn't like, I didn't know where to start first. So
I read the book like I always read any book
if I'm honest, which is I jump around a little bit.
So if You've spent hours and hours crafting this lovely
narrative thread and I've ruined it by jumping around, I
do apologize, but nonetheless I still.

Speaker 2 (17:50):
Well and I think that's the question that you ask.
I think that's part of the answer is we have
a lot of technical coaching and leadership books. There's a
lot out there on that. It is a narrative version
of telling the story of how a caring person can
change the lives of others. It's also a book for

(18:11):
anyone who's interested about leading self. And so in terms
of narrowing down the target audience, it's actually a hard
question for me because I think anyone who wishes to
make a positive difference in the life of another person
would benefit from it. I also think anyone who enjoys history,
who enjoys stories, who enjoys parables, would would find value

(18:34):
in it and would be entertained by its story. And
so you know, it's as transformation of coaching to build
champions for life. It certainly is and does have a
coaching target, probably is the main target, but it's much
broader than that, and that. I have a eighty year
old former colleague that's coming in later to grab a

(18:55):
dozen copies that she's going to sell at her craft Fare,
just to do because she loved it so much. I
have a former athlete who is fourteen years old who
sent me a text message how much how much he
enjoyed the stories. So from you know, teenagers to seniors.
That has been the part that has really been heartwarming
for me is that's connected with a wide range of audience.

Speaker 1 (19:18):
Well, I mean to be honest, it's one of the
things I really liked about it, and I almost think
it's one of those books that you you want to
recommend to anybody starting out in their journey of coaching
because a lot of the stories really speak to the
impact that coaches or people in coaching roles can have
on others. So if you wanted to it's almost like

(19:40):
a recruitment manual, like if anyone was sort of should
I become a coach? Read this, I'm definitely going to
become a coach.

Speaker 2 (19:48):
And it's built on the life skills that you can
teach and learn through sport. That's what the chapter organization
is is exactly that. And when I talked before about
why we get into this and ultimately what are we
trying to do, there's certainly elements of competition into it,
but Stuart, you're right, like for a new coach or
for someone revisiting why they are coaching, it's great to

(20:13):
sharpen that or that blade of man. Am I lucky?
I have the greatest job in the world. There's that
fantastic Billy Graham quote that one coach will positively influence
more people in the lifetime than the average person will
in one year. The average coach will positively influence more

(20:34):
people in one year than the average person will in
the lifetime. The amount of impact that we can make
through coaching is pretty awesome. And so that was part
of it. And if someone has changed through their coaching
by reading it, like I said that, that was the.

Speaker 1 (20:49):
Hope that love that. So I started with finding you Why?
So we just circle back to that one. Obviously, you know,
there's been a lot said about finding you Why. With
the success and positive and popularity of Simon Sinek is
something I talk about a lot. The question I actually
ask whenever I'm in front of a group of coaches

(21:09):
of any size is why do you coach the way
you coach? Sometimes clarified as why do you do what
you do the way that you do it? But I
actually do think it's an important question, and it's amazing
to me that actually, how few people have ever really
fully kind of examined their why. Very often they just
go towards, oh, I do it because this is how

(21:33):
somebody else did it and I'm following their footsteps, or
this is how somebody did it and I didn't like
it if I'm doing something else, but never really fully
examined it from their own purpose perspective. So just if
you wouldn't mind, let's start there, because I think there's
so much we get unpacked.

Speaker 2 (21:46):
Well in the foundational book for me in my leadership
and coaching journey was Joe Ermans Inside Out Coaching, And
I've been really lucky to have Joe as a mentor
of mine and I've been able to work very closely
with him on the number of trainings at the national
level UH and Inside Out Coaching Irman, and Joe is
nice enough to write the forward to my book as well.

Speaker 1 (22:09):
UH.

Speaker 2 (22:09):
He asks why do you coach? Why do you coach
the way you do? How does it feel to be
coached by you? And then how do you define success?
Those are they seem so simple? They are one sentence
questions that that we use in interviews. So if I'm
interviewing a new coach, those are the question Those are

(22:30):
four of the questions that I'll use and to your point, Stuart,
lots of times people can talk around it like they
can they can talk around it, but have a real
hard time getting rates to it and answering it and
understanding that why we coach the way we do is
influenced usually by our past experiences, and some of that

(22:52):
is really a subconscious level that we can, through reflection,
begin to understand. I think for anyone watching or listening
who has gone through this before, they'll know exactly what
I'm saying. If you've ever had that moment of oh
my goodness, I was just my mother, or I was
just my father, or in the coaching world, I just
did what coach blank did. Sometimes that's good. Sometimes it's bad,

(23:16):
and for all of us to have the wherewithal and
knowledge to know, you know, if it is bad, okay,
let's do something different. Let's maybe even pause and start over.
Because if it's an experience that we didn't appreciate, enjoy,
or wasn't helpful or useful, or didn't build into us,
it's not an experience or it's not a behavior that
we should be replicating or repeating. For me, how it

(23:38):
feels to be coached by me. I think it's all
about I think we need both high expectations and accountability,
and we need high care and high support. And I
think this is where many coaches get tripped up. We
have so many coaches who are all about expectations and
accountability and they just live on that side of the continuum.

(24:01):
And then increasingly, and I think this is a positive change,
we're getting more care and support into coaching. But you
need both. It's not one or the other. If you're
just if you're just caring and just supportive, and it's
tough to say just because that's a good thing to
be caring and support. But if that's all you focus on,
you're a nice coach. If you are only expectations and accountability,

(24:23):
you're just coaching angry or you're just coaching mean. And
so our athletes need to know that we are going
to push them to the greatest levels and heights that
we possibly can, and we're going to be pushing them
every step of the way, but every time they need
that care and support and help to get there, that
their coach will be there for them. And so you know,
I've had the great opportunity to think a lot about
those significant and important questions, and I encourage every coach

(24:46):
they should have good answers, and they should be able
to know what they're why is why they coach the
way they do, how it feels to be coached by them,
and ultimately what will success look like for you?

Speaker 1 (24:57):
Yeah, I mean that's something that I think is so
kind of impactful for so many that examination. Like you say,
I actually like those are the questions. That's another element
that I haven't thought about. What does it feel like
to be coached by you? That's a profound question I've

(25:18):
been I just think in my early days, like if
I had to come for an interview with you and
you'd ask me those questions, how would I have answered them?
I'm not sure.

Speaker 2 (25:27):
My son is a twelfth grader, he's a senior, and
he's considering playing college sports, and he's trying to find
that right fit. He won't be playing he's not a
Division one athlete, but he's a nice athlete who is
looking to play at the next level culture considering it.
When he's been connecting with coaches. I'm so proud of

(25:47):
him for this. That's actually a question that he's asked
college coaches who have been doing it for decades, like
how does it feel to be coached by you? And
it's amazing how difficult it is for some coaches who
have been doing it for decade, I mean career coaches
to answer that question. And it's been really interesting to
see him ask it and then the answers he gets

(26:09):
and he's not trying to trip him up. He means it.
I mean, it's not a guy yeah or anything like that.
He really wants to know in a part that's the
culture he's grown up. And they're like, if I'm coming here,
what's it going to feel like to be coached by you?
How will that feel? And I think that's an important
question to ask.

Speaker 1 (26:25):
Love that. I love that. Also, I like what you
talked about about this idea, you know, the high expectations
and accountability and high support. He reminded me guest out
on the podcast Must of the SOAKA who has a
research framework about that about you know, the creation of
a kind of a positive and thriving environment. And that's
exactly what he talks about the idea of high high challenge,

(26:45):
high support, and often it's about whenever it's about high expectations,
high support, high challenge, surry, high expectations, high accountability, high talent.
But this isn't there. That's when nowadays you're seeing athlete struggle.
You're seeing athlete, you know, kind of essentially kicking back,

(27:09):
pushing back, and and kind of challenging back, if you like,
to a certain extent. And there's almost a reappraisal going on.
But it's not a reappraisal. Really. What it's saying is
is that actually coaches, like you say, coaches who were
just about meanness, that they're going to find themselves having
a harder and harder time getting performances from athletes who

(27:30):
nowadays I think deserve and demand more.

Speaker 2 (27:34):
Absolutely so. True. Yep, it's not. It's not a one
or the other. It's both.

Speaker 1 (27:40):
No. So there's a lovely little story that I got
immediately jumped. So I'm jumping around a little bit, but
about resilience a little path flat right. I don't know
if you remember this story. I mean I bookmarked it
because I thought it was really funny. I kind of
kind of like reading it because it again, it's like
a little parabel. Parable don't know whether you want to

(28:00):
tell it or you want me to read it for you,
but go you go tell it for me because it's great.

Speaker 2 (28:04):
It's one of my favorites too. And it comes it
actually comes from a cartoon, and so originally it comes
from an image. And a traveler is walking down the
path and comes across a wise stage and there's a
fork in the road, and the traveler asks the sage
which way to success? Like this wise person. The one

(28:25):
question that he gets to ask is the traveler whears success.
He's looking for success, and the sage points. Traveler walks
down the path. There's a loud noise, a lot of commotion.
The haggard traveler comes back and says, I think there's
a problem here. You pointed this way, I went that way,
and I just got I'll beat up doing it. You

(28:48):
know which way to success? And the why stage points
the same direction again, and so a little bit questioning,
the traveler goes down the path again and there are
loud noise and a loud splat in the in the
you know, the traveler it's even a more dramatic experience

(29:09):
of getting beat up and pounded up and comes back
to the stage again and says, look, you're supposed to
know everything. And I just asked you which way to
success and you pointed that way I want to know. Now,
tell me where a success in the stage just to
look back and said, same direction, just a little past splat.

(29:29):
And I think that's a great story for what all
of us go through in life.

Speaker 1 (29:34):
Yeah, I mean I really liked it because I mean,
I'm definitely going to have to use that but that
notion that too often we can experience difficulty and challenge
and recoil from it, when in actual fact, what we
also need to do is to lean into it on

(29:58):
the basis that so you usually some growth that comes
from that. You reminded me by the way of I
was very fortunate to me Professor Carol dweck One organized
a conference over here and we managed to get her
to be our keynote speaker. And I mean she much.
She can't be any she can't be more than five
feet tall, and you know, first saw her and was like,

(30:20):
oh my god, and I'm going to send her into
this room of you know, kind of like you know,
hard faced rugby players. How's this going to go? And
of course he's an absolute rock star, isn't she? And
she said something similar, which was this idea of he said,
nobody comes home funny, amazing struggle today, and like the

(30:42):
whole room went silent. There's something just really profound being said.
And I remember, like I said, it stuck with me,
you know, I told that story several times. But it's
a similar message I suppose, isn't it, which is the
struggle is where the growth comes from.

Speaker 2 (30:58):
And I'm I'm here finish. So my mother's one hundred
percent finish. And the Finns very proud people. They embody
this concept of se Sue and they sometimes privatize it.
But as a as a half in I feel like
I'm qualified to tell it. It doesn't have a great
English translation, but it ties into this idea of grit

(31:21):
and resilience. See Sue is that unrelenting determination, grit will
in the face of insurmountable odds, that they will never
ever ever give up, no matter what it is. And
we saw this play out in the Winter War of
World War Two, where the outnumbered Finns were able to

(31:44):
take on the Russians of the Soviet Union and one
of the most powerful militaries in the world, and just
on skis and through se Sue were able to defend
their country, and so they embody that concept. And I
have a sign in my office that says see Sue,
and for me it's above my door because it's a
reminder of always sometimes saying no can be so easy,

(32:08):
but find the harder yes, like find a way to
get it done. Don't Giving up's easy. Not giving up
is the hard part is I think a lot of
people have that flipped, you know, So not giving up
is really where the work comes in. Anyone can give up, right,
and so for us to train ourselves and train others

(32:30):
and the body that that notion idea of csu that
it's gonna take more than that and they have the
unending guts and strength to carry on.

Speaker 1 (32:40):
I love that seeing that Seasoo, that's great. The movie
by the same name as a World War two movie,
I think, by the same name. It's pretty gory, but similar,
I think, And now I realize why it's called because
the whole message is perseverance and determinating bite insurmountable odds.

Speaker 2 (32:56):
Yep.

Speaker 1 (32:59):
Love that. Where to next? So now this is something
that I was really drawn to because I think this
notion of is really important. So You've got a particular
chapter where you talk about allyeship, and I think this
is a really important element that I'm really interested in.

(33:21):
So I am buying to practice allyship in a lot
of different domains with a lot of the work that
I do with particularly with some marginalized or underrepresented groups,
and to try and do as much as I can
to be an ally sometimes in very difficult circumstances. I
don't mind telling you I love this notion, so I

(33:42):
wouldn't wonder if I could get you to expand on that.

Speaker 2 (33:45):
Yeah, for better or worse, society has reflected sport so often,
and so we've seen, you know, we've seen humanity as
worse in sport, and we've I think also seen humanity
at its finest in sport. You know, you think back
to some of the most galvanizing moments in American history

(34:09):
for sure, Posts ninety eleven. If you remember at that time,
as President Bush coming out to throw the first pitch
at the Yankees game, I mean that was an emotional
moment that decades later people still get choked up about
as the reaction and him showing at that moment a

(34:29):
country that we will be strong and we will be resilient.
Not all of our stories are that wonderful. And in
the case of like major League Baseball not having through
gentlemen's agreements, not allowing black players, some of the best
players in the world access to the game simply because
of the color of their skin. And so I think

(34:51):
back to the platform that we have through sports, we
can teach some of the most significant and most important
lessons about how we can be greater contributors to the
world and how we a more micro level work with
the people next to us and work with them at
the human level. That much of the stories from the book,
many of them, and I call it historical fiction or

(35:11):
narrative nonfiction a lot of times because the lessons are real,
and many of them have been flipped around or twisted
or changed in small ways, so it's not necessarily a
biography or straight nonfiction. In the case of Allyship, it's
where I did learn to work with people that didn't

(35:34):
look like me. It's where I did see the first
real examples of terrible, awful over racism. And one of
the stories that I was there for that I tell
in the book is when a very good friend of
mine had someone from another dugout. He happened to be

(35:54):
hispanic and dissent and someone yelled him to go back
to the canning factory. And that has stuck with me
for the rest of my life, that that a happens
in sport. And then part of it, and we cover
this in the book, is it almost became a fight
on the on the field at that point, But we
never really talked about that. You know, there was never

(36:16):
really any type of debrief on that and how terrible
and awful that was. Now, I'm thankful that my teammate
and all of that team were there to defend and
support their friend in that time, but you know, there
are so many Unfortunately, I'm guessing for many people listening,

(36:40):
they roll back their tapes of really bad moments that
happened through sport. And so when I talk about the
power of sport, in the significance of sport, it can
be good or bad, and really it's about the leader
and the coach in terms of the direction it goes.
And that's the significance of us as leaders and coaches

(37:01):
to make sure that we're taking the opportunity that we
are learning about with others and that we are embracing
and supporting no matter what someone looks like, what their
preference is, or any other way that the world might
define them. That they're a teammate, and as teammates, we
have an obligation to support and respect each other, and

(37:23):
they'll extend that to the other team as well. And
we can learn that lesson so powerfully through sport. When
I talk about the difference between the classroom environment and
a sport environment, we can talk about it all day
long in the classroom. You can practice it in sport.
And I think that's where where sports is so important
to society is we can practice these really important, significant

(37:45):
things sometimes without even knowing it.

Speaker 1 (37:49):
I mean, I think it's a really important area and
I'm glad you touched on it because a lot of
people would have been afraid to, you know, because it
can be a bit of a toxic sort of subject,
can't it. But it's one that you're talking about, and
I don't think enough people are talking about it. And
I actually think from a coaching perspective, it's an area
that you know, would challenge many coaches, like what do

(38:11):
you do in that circumstance? How do you handle the fallout?
How do you deal with the time, at the raw
emotion at the time and the impact that that has,
and how do you then deal and support the individuals
that are affected, because it wouldn't just necessarily be that
individual that's affected, it would also be the people around
them that are affected. And again that's a really important thing.

(38:35):
And you reminded me when you were talking about sport
being neither good nor bad. Everyone assumes, and you know,
the general thesis of the book is about the power
of sport and that the opportunities that provide and the
lessons it can teach, and the way that coaches can
play the role in that. And I think that's a
really powerful message. But as we know, the reverse can

(38:57):
very easily be true. You may have heard of a
guy called John Amachi. He was probably one of the
first British basketballers whoever played in the NBA, and he's
now become a I don't even know quite how to
describe him. He's he's he's got his own kind of
like performance consultancy and he talks a lot about not

(39:20):
just sport. Actually he works in a lot of bigs
and he's become a very very outspoken advocate on things
like racism, looks a lot about inclusion and allyship and
all these notions, but he says a lot actually about
how he challenges those of us who work in the
sports space who loved to buy into the sort of
positive narrative around sport. Says, you know, like sport is neutral,

(39:41):
neither good nor bad in its in and of itself.
It's the people and what they do in it that
makes it either a positive or negative experience. And that's
where the notion of allyship comes in.

Speaker 2 (39:53):
There's research that supports there, obviously, in research shows that
the farther along in sport you get, the more morally
corrupt it becomes. So the higher levels you get, the
more issues of ethics and morals we face. And so
you know that's part of the problem. The longer that
you're in sport, the more potential you have to be
exposed to some of the ugly negative sides that have

(40:17):
and can exist.

Speaker 1 (40:19):
Yeah, yeah, I'm totally with you on that. Right next
to this chapter is this notion of taking off the dirt.
I'm really interested in this area. You tell a story
about John Kidwell quite like this one. So tell me
the story of John Kidswell. If you wouldn't mind.

Speaker 2 (40:36):
Yeah, And he's that guy that isn't the star athlete,
but he was that one that lifts up others around him.
And I think that's one of the most important life
skills that any of us can possibly possibly have. And
as we talk about the numbers, you know, beyond adolescents,
whatever percentage go on to play a next level, it's
you know, probably below five percent or something like that.

(40:58):
I think one of the greatest skills that we see
is your ability. It's one thing to lift yourself up
and to make yourself great. It's a wonderful life skill.
All of us should work on that each and every day.
But if you can lift five, ten, fifteen people up,
those are the people that go on to be CEOs,
and those are the people that go on to lead
nonprofits and to really make their mark in the world.

(41:20):
And I think you get to practice that through sport.
The shake of Off story is a great one because
Tids is at in the mound as he's listening to
coach tell this bizarre story that pictures struggling can't seem
to find the strike zone for the life of them,
and he asks if he's heard the story about the
donkey and the well, and it's the old parable of

(41:42):
the donkey gets stuck in the well, and the neighbors
come over and they start shoveling dirt on top of
it because it's an old donkey and it's really too bad,
but there's no way of getting the donkey out, and
so it's time to send a donkey out to pasture
in a figurative sense. And so they're shoveling the dirt
on and the donkey just starts stepping up and shaking
off the dirt, and then eventually they fill the well

(42:03):
with dirt and the donkey jumps out and he's renewed, right,
he's saved. And it's another wonderful example and story for
all of us about sometimes just shaking it off. That
the only one in the world that gets to influence
our attitude and our mood is ourself. Now, we have
all kinds of external factors coming at us all the time,

(42:23):
and I might throw our spouse in there to our
spouse can probably affect our mood, but we have all
these external factors coming at us. It's what we allow
to affect us. Easier said than done. And anyone who's Yeah,
and anyone who's lived knows that it's easier said than done.
But it's a great grounding mechanism of you know, especially

(42:44):
in our relationships with others. If if someone's annoying us
or bothering us, or we have a hard time working
with someone else, one, we should always be striving to
improve that. But two, if that is the case, if
they really bug you, why would you ever give them
the power to make your day bad? And I think
that's a great coaching lesson too, because coaches deal with

(43:06):
a lot of different parent issues, even sometimes some athletes
or league issues, whatever it may be. Don't let someone
else wreck your day. Sometimes we just need to step
up and shake it off.

Speaker 1 (43:18):
Yeah. I mean it's again this sort of notion of
agency and having over how you respond to those external stimulus.
You don't have to be a victim to those external stimulus.
You can use your responses, and one of those is
to just go yeah, whatever, move on.

Speaker 2 (43:39):
You mentioned duek before and as you tack mindset. I
think you're spot on Stuart that I think one issue
that we're facing in the world today is we continue
to teach our youth what the world has against them.
How the world is holding them down and in many
ways we're teaching a deficit mindset rather than an asset mindset,
and how lucky we are to be living in this

(44:02):
time in the world where truly you can make anything
of yourself, You can do anything you want. You do
have the world at your fingertips if you choose to
take advantage. That doesn't mean it's going to be easy.
There's like, there's gonna be challenges, there's gonna be problems
along the way. But I think we're teaching too many
kids about why they're being held down rather than why

(44:23):
they have the opportunity to be lifted up.

Speaker 1 (44:27):
And to sort of extend that, I agree that. I
also think that this slight mis message as well around
like goes back to your point around sort of how
do you identify success and also what the expectations are.
So again, I think one of the challenges high expectation

(44:48):
and high accountabilities doesn't always have to be mean problem
with it though, is that an individual if they know
that this high expectations but they're not given the right support,
then that can have a detrim and to effect because
you know, yeah, let's say you achieve something great and
you get the adulation and praise and all those sorts
of things, and then the next thing is you fail. Well,

(45:09):
what X Work showed is that they'll you'll you'll like,
wither away from that, then you won't want to go
lean into it again. Whereas if the conversation is the
growth mindset, conversation is this notion around actually the failure
is where the growth is coming from. And actually by
leaning into that and learning and developing, we're going to
get better. That's the message that I love about REX

(45:32):
Work is the idea that those around other individuals and
the kind of language we use and the articulation. You know,
it can be as simple as you must you did
well there. That must be because you're smart fixed or
you did well there, you must have worked hard at it.
Growth is hugely powerful, and being aware of that and

(45:57):
understanding how your language creates an environment where people are
either going to lean in to struggle and challenge all
or shy away from it really critical.

Speaker 2 (46:08):
Yeah, you use that word environment, which is so powerful
because I think it's the significance and importance of all
of us establishing that foundation, the foundation of growth of
care and support. If others understand that's who you are
and that's your real self, and that's your foundation. Then
those moments of holding someone accountable or having high expectations

(46:32):
are viewed as great coaching or it's viewed as great
leadership because coach cares about me, he's really pushing me
to be better. If you don't have that foundation, that's
I think where you go wrong and where the message
that is delivered is not the message that's received.

Speaker 1 (46:48):
No, I mean it's really important. Now we talked about
having and shaking it off. You also talk about a
mop and bucket attitude, and when I saw that, I thought, ah,
I think I might know where they're coming from. But yeah,
tell me more about that one.

Speaker 2 (47:04):
Dave Thomas was the founder of Wendy's and he talked
about the importance of having a mop bucket attitude or
an MBA, and so as we talk about advanced degrees,
Dave Thomas did not have an advanced degree, but he
always said he had his MBA and his NBA really
was in about example and effort. That he wasn't afraid

(47:28):
to do whatever work was required to get done, and
part of that was setting the example. If a floor
need to be mopped. Dave Thomas, billionaire would be willing
to grab the mop bucket and to do the work himself.
And I think it also helped ground him and who
he was, where he came from, and that no work,
that no one is too good for any work. And

(47:50):
it's a wonderful leadership story and coaching story for all
of us. Like we can pick up the balls, that's okay,
you know, we can rake the field, or we can
cut the grass, whatever it might be, that no work
is beneath us as a leader, and to set that example.
And the other part of it is don't ever let

(48:13):
effort get in the way of your goals and purpose. Right,
that's something we can control, is that. Then that's how
I define hard work. Hard work is not letting effort
ever get in the way of our success or goals.
And who knows what kind of ripple effect that had
just by other employees seeing the owner of the franchise,
Dave Thomas grabbing the mop bucket and mopping the floor.

(48:34):
That sends a pretty powerful message.

Speaker 1 (48:39):
As a leadership thing. When I read that, he made
me think of there's another book and then if you've
come across it by a die called James Kerr or legacy,
Yeah about it, fantastic. The New Zealand all blacks, and
they have this notion of sleeping the shed yep, and
they actually physically go through the practice of ensuring that
they're changing room is left clean before they leave. And

(49:02):
it is a and the fundamental message behind the group
mentality and the culture that they have is no one
is too good to clean up after themselves.

Speaker 2 (49:12):
And so many leaders and we see this a lot
with with teenagers with adolescence too, that they have it
all wrong, they have it flipped. They think that once
they assume a leadership role, or once they become a captain,
that means that they're now the king of the hill.
They're at the top of the mountain and that's now
their job to be served and everyone else does their bidding,

(49:35):
they bark out commands and everyone else does it. When
actually what leadership is, and I think this is the
greatest mindset shift that we can give our youth in
terms of leadership, is that leadership is about serving others.
It's not about being served. And when I work with
when I work with our students and with our captains,
if there's nothing else that I get across to them,
it's exactly that, because I think that's how we transform

(49:58):
leadership into the future is getting leaders, coaches, student athletes,
captains to understand that leadership is not about being served.
It's actually the opposite. It's now our turn to serve others.
And I think that's a powerful point that you make.

Speaker 1 (50:13):
Yeah, I like this notion as well. I don't want
to go all the way through the book, but there's
a lot in here, and there's still plenty for people
to get that. Don't worry about we're going to go
through it all. But you talked about kindness taking care
of others, this notion of blacking kindness. I was taken

(50:34):
by that notion, So, yeah, tell me more about that.

Speaker 2 (50:38):
Kindness is infectious, right, and we never know we'll have
an impact that we're having on another person that day,
just through our simple words and simple actions. And so
in this example of farm, someone watching a farmer work
in Thailand and is using a water buffalo, and the

(50:58):
water buffalo is pulling the plow through the rice fields
and out of nowhere, the farmer jumps off the plow
and starts splashing water onto this water buffalo and it
just makes that water. You can just see the tension
and the release leave the water buffalo and how much

(51:19):
that animal appreciates just splashing the kindness on the water
on a hot summer day, just to take the time
and stop and splash water. And it's a wonderful metaphor
for all of us about how we can splash water
on others to brighten their day and to make their day.
And sometimes it's just being mindful of that. You know,
we go through life so busy and so hurried. If

(51:42):
we can just stop for a moment and take advantage
to compliment someone, to open a door for someone, and
can trigger that butterfly effect that who knows where it ends,
it continues out and it expands and brightens other people's days.

Speaker 1 (51:57):
Yeah, I mean, I think that's the again. You know,
it can to easily be lost, aren't it. Very small acts,
you know, can make such a difference. And the random
acts of kindness they talk about, don't they, and they
go a long way. And it's like you say, it

(52:18):
can be the smallest thing. Funnily enough, because obviously your
book's about influence. So where my mind went when you
did this, Because I'm currently doing a core through a
platform that I'm working with, which is about influence, and
the note is the open of reci property. And the

(52:38):
guy who created the core, he actually created it for
the financial industry, financial advisors, but it's applied obviously not
to different spaces. And when I first met him, he
gave me a little coin and it was like, I said, oh,
what's this voice. That's a little present, And I said, oh,
it's great. That'd be like a little golf marker for me.

(53:00):
And I took it away. I've got it on my
side table, and I'm like, I didn't really know why
I did it. And then I started doing his course afterwards,
and I'm like, ah, now I know why I did it.
And it's this notion of recips I give you a
little thing, it doesn't matter what it is, but I've
just given you something, an act of kindness or a
little gift or a little quote or something, you know,
a cookie, whatever it might be. And that little gift

(53:21):
is a kind of a way of putting kindness into
the world, not on the basis that it necessarily needs
to come back to you, but the principle of reciprocity
is such that actually the more you put out, sometimes
that stuff does come back to you. And if you
don't put it out, don't expect it to come back
to you.

Speaker 2 (53:39):
Yeah. I caught the boomerang effect, right. You throw someone spiral,
you'll go to spiral back, or the idea of a
boomerang coming back to you. And I think it's probably
on both sides too. If we talkt about self fulfilling prophecies,
if we treat people poorly, we'll live up to the
expectation that they have of us. Two fundamental attribution eire.

(54:01):
But being nice to people doesn't cost anything. And there's
a wonderful Pair Bryant story in the book about exactly that,
And that's the moral stories. It doesn't cost anything to
be nice, and we never know what kind of dividends
it's paying, and I would suggest that none of us
are doing it for that reason. But it is like
a boomerang that that being kind and giving to others

(54:23):
is something that gives back to us. And I think
you see that over and over in coaching and in leadership,
and it's something that is cumulative, it builds over time.

Speaker 1 (54:36):
Yeah, there's a lot we could talk about. I don't
necessarily go through all of it. But if you had
a kind of almost like a key method that you
wanted or you were you know, kind of a message
that you were hoping that somebody would go away from
reading the book, what would be your hope and you know,

(54:57):
kind of what impact you think it might have.

Speaker 2 (55:00):
Yeah, And so it's all stories of leadership, coaching, and teamwork.
And I think most of us fit into that category
of somewhere like relationships and connections with others and the
ability to successfully work with others. There's that piece, and
then there's also the how we lead ourself. And I
know that through my own work, when I started to

(55:21):
understand and uncover my why and my purpose as a
leader and as a coach, that that gave me more
clarity and how I lived my life. And so it
became so much more than leadership and coaching for me.
It made me a better coworker, It made me a
better spouse, a better husband, a better father, a better son,

(55:45):
a better brother. And I think that just comes from
really getting clarity about who we are and what we're
all about. And you said this earlier, Stuart, that like
that doesn't I'm not looking for millions of dollars. I'm
not looking for worldwide fame is being comfortable and understanding
of where we are and what's most important to us.

(56:09):
And for me, that comes down to making a positive
difference in the lives of others and the relationships I hold.
If in those areas, I'm successful. If I have good, strong,
loving relationships and I'm able to make a positive difference
on the lives of others, it's a life well lived.
And that's what I hope everyone has the opportunity to

(56:30):
reflect on as they read the book, is what will
be your legacy and what do you want accomplished with
this one chance we get? And it's never too late
to think about that, you know. I think sometimes we
get stuck and are past and thinking about yesterday. We're
so fortunate to wake up each day with a new
chance and to have a new opportunity to define that

(56:51):
day in the next, and that we should take advantage
of it.

Speaker 1 (56:55):
Yeah, I mean, I love that pretty powerful. I do
think the books as I was going through it, I
do do think that, you know, you talk about it
being leadership, coaching and teamwork, but you know, it's a
bit more like a life manual in some respect. Isn't
it be a in there that can can could resonate

(57:17):
with lots of different experiences.

Speaker 2 (57:19):
Yeah, the box that we want to check for what
genre it is doesn't really exist. And there have been
times were actually on self help. I've checked, you know,
if self help certainly fits the bill. Yeah.

Speaker 1 (57:34):
Hey, listen, I mentioned earlier before we started recording that
there was every chance that the family would come home
from school and working places like that. So I have
I can hear the noise, and I've just realized that
there is dad taxi to be to be done stuba
as I call it, so I probably need to Yeah,

(57:58):
I don't get paid, but anyway, there you go, so
they pay me back.

Speaker 2 (58:02):
In there in their Yeah, in different ways.

Speaker 1 (58:09):
Listen. I've loved having you on. I think it's been great.
I do. I'm really appreciative that you send me a
copy of the book, and I've really enjoyed it. Actually,
I've got more to get through. It's actually been really
useful on lots of levels as well. My wife's opened
a new business and you know, it's been really difficult,
really challenging. And I said, I have a little read

(58:30):
of this story, and like what I love is is
like they're quite short story so they've got little messages.
And the thing I like about that is that you know,
you can give that to somebody and it's not necessarily
like to heavy lifting, but they Okay, I get it,
I get where you're coming from. There's something we can
talk about like it.

Speaker 2 (58:45):
Well, thank you and then thanks for the conversation. It's
been wonderful to connect and I think we're swimming up
the same stream of trying to make a positive difference
with this platform. So thanks for the time.

Speaker 1 (58:56):
Well, it's definitely been nice as well. I mean sometimes
I go down the scale acquisition rabbit whole, as you know,
so it's sometimes nice to come out of that and
actually to talk more about the kind of the human
to human stuff that's actually probably more important than Yes,
we've all got to develop skill and we need to
learn more about that. But it's important to also remember
that we're trying to connect with people. So I really
appreciate you coming on and having a conversation with me

(59:18):
about this all about it.

Speaker 2 (59:19):
That might be a great summary takeaway point too, is
just like we have all kinds of access and opportunities
for the hard skills of sport, right, all kinds of
there's clinics that are everywhere in my experiences, it's the
saft side and saft skills of sport that really defines
who are coaches and what difference they make.

Speaker 1 (59:36):
Yeah, listen, I love I love what you're doing, and
I wish you all success with the book and also
with your continued success as an athletics director. I think there's,
like I said, I mean, I'm just bewildered by that construct.
You know, you have a setup that's bigger than some
governing bodies in this in this country, which is crazy.
But anyway, Yeah, and I look forward to next one

(01:00:00):
because I can imagine there's a next one. Now you've
done this first one, you probably thought as you were
writing it, never again. But now you've done it, you're
probably thinking, oh, maybe I will do another one.

Speaker 2 (01:00:09):
Well, once the idea is struck, so I'm sure I'll
get the bug. Yep. But that's that's the key to
any book. It's what, what's the topic, what's the idea?

Speaker 1 (01:00:16):
Before I forget, I can imagine people might be interested
in reaching out. I know there's a chasing in chasing
Dot Storry, datingda influence dot com website. But is there
another route for them to reach out to you if
they wanted to talk more about it, or you know,
maybe ask you to come and do some speaking ye know,
if that's something you do, but I think you should.

Speaker 2 (01:00:37):
Yeah. Absolutely. I would love to hear from people and
they can reach out to me. The probably the easiest
quickest way is just my Gmail Troy art All at
gmail dot com. So t R O Y you are
d A h L at gmail dot com. UH be
happy to hear from any feedback they have or if
there's any way I can help. That's why that's why

(01:00:58):
I do this is if I have the opportunity to help,
I'd love to do that.

Speaker 1 (01:01:01):
Amazing boy, had been great to dat to you and
Ulla Beck.

Speaker 2 (01:01:06):
Thank you.

Speaker 3 (01:01:11):
Thanks for listening to the Talent Equation podcast. If you
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