"Leadership is a practice...not a position" - a conversation with Hayley Lever - The Talent Equation Podcast

Episode Transcript
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Speaker 1 (00:01):
Welcome to the Talent Equation Podcast. If you are passionate
about helping young people join leash their potential and want
to find ways to do that better, then you've come
to the right place. The Talent Equation podcast seeks to
answer the important questions facing parents, coaches, and talent developers

(00:22):
as they try to help young people become the best
they can be. This is a series of unscripted, unpolished
conversations between people at the razor's edge of the talent
community who are prepared to share their knowledge, experiences, and
challenges in an effort to help others get better faster. Listen, reflect,

(00:43):
and don't forget to join the discussion at the Talent
Equation dot co dot UK. Enjoy the show.

Speaker 2 (01:13):
So here is an overdue phrase that I sorry, an
over you phrase that I often use on this podcast,
which is to say that this guest is overdue. But
if there is ever a guest that is overdue, then
this is one. Because I can't tell you how excited
I am to welcome Hailey Lever to the podcast, because

(01:35):
I mean, there's an awful lot of a lot of
ways that I could introduce you, but I will want
to one of the things I would say to begin
with is that you're probably one of the people who,
in my meandering journey throughout my career has had one
of you probably don't realize this, probably had one of
the biggest influences on the way I conduct myself in
the world of sport, physical activity, the world of work, leadership,

(01:55):
and all those sorts of things, just just through pure observation, listening, hearing,
watching your public communications. So I'm really delighted to have
you on, Hailey.

Speaker 3 (02:06):
Welcome.

Speaker 4 (02:07):
Wow, that's a very nice way to be welcomed. Yeah,
I'm quite Yeah, that's that means a lot, and I
was unaware, So thank you. It's really really, really great
to be here.

Speaker 2 (02:20):
Well no, no, no, it's the pleasures or mine. But it's
just by way of a starting starting point. You've been busy,
you've been writing. We had a conversation I don't remember
how long ago it was now, maybe two years ago,
maybe even three years ago, and we discussed this particular
project I seem to remember. And now it's reality because

(02:42):
you actually you're about to publish, or you have published
by the time this podcast comes out, a book all
about leadership, which we're going to talk about. But I
wonder if you wouldn't wouldn't mind, just like, maybe just
give your story, your plotted history, if you like, around
your journey into this world, how we come to know
each other, et cetera, et cetera.

Speaker 4 (03:04):
Yeah, So just I guess in brief, I grew up
in Coventry and I was had the absolute you benefit
of some brilliant, brilliant people teachers, youth workers and the
like who opened all sorts of sort of possibilities in
my world through through coaching and leading sport. Actually so

(03:27):
few teachers, youth workers and people who struddled you know,
teaching and coaching and round clubs in our community. And
then and through that I one I found a love
of sport, physical activity, movement, what do you want to
call it? But also absolutely there's a line from there

(03:49):
through to my first work experience, ended up working in
sports development in the late nineties and through to a career.
So the ideas of working mostly you know, in one
way or another in the space office activity sport increasingly
over recent the last decade around addressing inactivity and inequalities

(04:14):
is being the core focus of that, with brief forays
into other things like local government policy and so on.
And I guess throughout that whole journey which we can
get into and which I talked about in the book,
people and their role in really unlocking something in me
which is not which wasn't inevitable given where I grew up,

(04:43):
who I grew up with, the family history and background
and environment that was growing up in. And it is
absolutely down to key individuals at certain sliding doors moments
in my life that have ended up with me involved
in this as a curer and then taken me through
to where I am now, which is as the chief
executive of the Active Partnership in Greater Manchester, leading Great

(05:06):
Manster moving for last eight or so years in a
couple of slightly varying roles running with somebody. I rejoined
a running club and I went out with them last
night and in the last five minutes of the run,
going upper hill, this woman who I've never met before
asked me, so, what do you do then? And firstly

(05:26):
I was like, I'll tell you when I get to
the top a hill, and then I did that, which
was in the last five minutes that takes us get
back to the end. How am I going to sum
this up. And so I did something which I've never
done before, and my daughters have challenged me on, is
that I never introduced myself by my role title. So

(05:47):
I did what I've been promising them I will do,
which is, first of all, said I'm the chief executive
of a charity that's focused on tappling in activity and
then equalities across Greater Manchester, and then explained a little
bit more because people then go, oh right, so do
you run activities in care homes then or whatever? You know,
people to focus in on the thing what that means
to them and like what matters to them. So how

(06:10):
you describe the role which is leading this movement for
movement across the whole city region of three million people
and contributing to the national kind of direction and increasingly
international learning and development as well, is not easy to
convey in a five minute end of run chats. But
actually she got it. So I've obviously been practicing, you know,

(06:33):
long enough and genuinely, I think and it is relevant
to the book as well as recognizing that journey from
growing up in Potter's Green Coventry to having a role
that I have. And she said to me well, it
sounds like you've got a passion job, and I'm like
you absolutely spot on, I have. I love it every
single day. And what bloody privilege that is, you know,

(06:56):
to have a job that you can't wait to do
every day and you actually have to hold yourself back
from start work in the morning, which is certainly how
it is now the kids have all left home and
have only got me in the job to be responsible
for and then literally have to hold myself back from
starting And that's just incredible. Like to have that in
a career, Yeah.

Speaker 2 (07:16):
One hundred percent, and it comes through actually, and I
will I will talk to you about that as we go,
because there's quite a lot I didn't know, which is
really interesting. One thing that you sort of brought brought
to life for me is actually the difficulty sometimes of
explaining your job. My father in law actually, during his

(07:39):
the speech at my wedding described my job as a hobby.
So it sounds more like a hobby. It works in sports.
It sounds like you worked a hobby and you can
never quite a lot of people couldn't quite grasp it.
And I, like you stopped using my title today, So
I'm head of coaching at Sports England Topty where we
know each other from, and people would often say to me, oh, yeah,

(07:59):
so so which teams do you coach? Then it don't
quite work like that, it's about policy, and then it
gets really boring and you think why I didn't just
so then I changed it and said, yeah, no, I
work for a national agency that and you know, and
my focus is on helping the people who provide coaching
sessions to other people do it better, and then people
get it.

Speaker 4 (08:20):
Yeah, that's exactly what I did. I went, yeah, well,
it's actually a lot about strategy and policy and influence.
And then it's like some really dull so, yeah, it
is the conundrum, but yeah, it'd be interesting. I wish
i'd sort of recorded over the years all the different
ways of tried to describe the role, because actually the
role and the way you play it changes, doesn't it

(08:41):
over your career as well? And the whole approach has
changed from where I started. But how amazing as well.
I think I used to be a little bit resistant
to people thinking my job was a hobby and that oh,
how brilliant, it must be great to work in sport,
like how cool? And I used to be a little bit,
a bit grumpy about that a bit. No, it's a

(09:02):
real job. It's like really important and really hard. Actually
you need to understand that. And it's not just done
every day, and it is and it is hard and challenging.
But the one thing, you know, I've got three daughters,
and all I really want for them in terms of
their careers and their work is to find the thing,
you know, something that really sort of is a passion

(09:25):
thing for them, you know, like it's that's become more
and more important to me kind of convey a sense
to them of like it is entirely possible to do
meaningful work that has real value in the world that
you can can't wait to get up and do every day.
Like how brilliant is that?

Speaker 2 (09:40):
I think that's one of the potentially biggest strengths of
support and physical activity as a as a sector, if
you like, because or as a potential career. Because I've
got a I've got an eight shoe soon to be
eighteen year old boy who is following the path. Nothing
I could do to convince him otherwise, and he's just

(10:02):
about to finish he's doing college and he's just doing
sports science diploma, and he's sort of thinking about what
he's going to do, and he's got lots of different
avenues that he's following already. But one of the things
I know that he attracks him to it, and I
think this would also be one of our potential strengths
when it comes to, you know, next generation of young

(10:23):
people and careers, is that you are doing something that
you're just massively passionate about, and like you say, you know,
you have to hold yourself back from doing it almost
in some respects, And so I think that's a real
opportunity actually when it comes to, you know, young people
considering their careers because as you know now, you know,
can be have so many options available to them, but
at the same time are also looking, i think, very

(10:47):
often for things that give them purpose, give them meaning,
which is a central feature of what you talk about
in the book. So there's lots of segues here. But
I do think that's a really good opportunity that's presenting itself,
and I'm kind of looking forward to seeing where he
goes and also how young people enter the industry.

Speaker 4 (11:03):
I think that's the other thing that comes to mind.
There is probably about a year ago, I was being
an interviewed by Andy King for the Convenience Podcast, and
I said something in the interview, which was then not
coming out to after Christmas that I agonized over and
I ruminated over over the Christmas period because I'd said
in that and I'm going to say again as probably

(11:25):
this will be a test of how anxious to get
about it this time. But I talked about my dad
and about how he how work was for him, you know,
and as I was growing up what I observed in
his relationship with work and the conditions and the culture
and you know, this sort of as a lorry driver
and his and I was, And I guess there's something
about part of why, like creating the right culture and

(11:50):
conditions for work is so important to me is because
I saw what it was like when it wasn't great
and when leaders, you know, people and the boss if
you didn't create the conditions for that. And the other
bit that excites me about the next generation of you know,
about children and the next generation, is that not just

(12:11):
about finding work that is meaningful and purposeful and that
they can enjoy, but the absolute focus, like it is
entirely possible to create cultures and conditions that people can
thrive at work, and just how powerful that is to
unlock people's potential. And I'm already seeing it in the
roles that they have had, where you realize that they've

(12:33):
learned just by being around you over the years. What
really matters when it comes to the culture of work
and the system that you're operating within, and when that's
good and when it's not, and what you do about it.
And that's yeah, that's also something that holds a lot
of potential. I think we understand so much more about

(12:55):
how to get the best out of people in the
thing that they love doing.

Speaker 2 (13:01):
That's genuinely one of the reasons why I was so
keen to talk to you, because I'm such a passionate
believer about that, and that's one of the things that
this podcast exists to do.

Speaker 3 (13:11):
I originally set it up because.

Speaker 2 (13:14):
You know, I'd worked within the industry for a while
and I was working in sort of talent development type roles,
coach development type roles, and one of the things that
I found, I found like podcasts helped me a lot
because but they were all sort of unrelated to sport. Necessarily,
it was to do with leadership and management and those
sorts of things, and I was sort of translating the lessons.

(13:36):
And then but within the sports space, well, I've sort
of observed in my career weirdly is you mentioned about
the sort of almost like feeling like you'd have to
take it seriously. So when people sort of to me
belittle it by saying to you, probably through jealousy, oh,

(13:56):
it feels like a hobby or it feels like that's
a fun thing to do, and you want to say
to them, no, it's a serious it's a serious job.
It's a proper job. Like I used to get like
that as well. But also I've worked in lots of
organizations where you know, you had to wear like a
suit and a tie, and I think it was all
because they wanted to create the So when I started,
I was in a tracksuit. Why because I was out
doing stuff all the time, working as a local authority

(14:17):
sports development off. But then you people, you look at
you in your tracksuit. You're having a great time, aren't you, you know,
whilst everybody else is wearing a suit of time. And
then what I noticed is lots of aspects of the
sports world changed and they had to wear a suit
of tie and everything else, and it's like, well, that's
not physical activity, it's at all. And what I've noticed
since is recently is like more and more now it's
all about wearing trainers and things that are going to

(14:37):
make enable you to be active through your working day.
You definitely were one of a bit of a pioneer
as far as that's concerned. I would say you probably
don't even notice, but it definitely I remember going to
meet your team and how that was the kind of normal,
normal thing, and there was me and my shoes, thinking
why am I doing that? But it's really weird. And
I'm using that as a very small example of how

(15:02):
quite a lot of my career has almost felt as
if we were trying to be really taken really seriously.
Sport was had to be tasted seriously. It's not a sideline. No,
we're really serious and we're making big impacts on society
and everything else, which we were, but it was felt
like we had to talk in a certain way. And
then we haven't changed that in actual fact, in many

(15:24):
ways by becoming more I guess what's the word I'm
trying to find by almost embracing movement of physical activity
in our day to day work life. We've more authentically
now begun to be able to talk about the impacts
of physical activity can have on health and other social

(15:46):
challenges and all those sorts of things. And I felt
like that was you came at it like that really authentically,
and it's something that I have I took away, which
is this idea of you're don't have to pretend to
be something else to be taken seriously, either as a
leader or as a group of people. The actual fact
authenticity is probably the biggest thing that you need to embrace. Anyway,

(16:09):
it's a bit of a long winded way just asking
you to respond to that.

Speaker 4 (16:12):
Really no, I'm just so enjoying this already from the
point of view of that journey that you've described about
you know, the sector, you know, the profession, the sports
development profession. You know, it resonates so strongly, and I
can remember key moments along the way about I think

(16:33):
about Belcharten back in the around two thousand in Derbyshire,
you know, working really really hard with others around us,
or professionalization of the work because it is serious work
and it does really matter, and you know, there was
a lot of work done to give it pility and

(16:53):
GRAVI and for sure some of that meant that we
joined in with culture norms, workplace cultural norms to fit
so that if you were hosted in a local authority
or we're going to meetings with serious people in suits,
you joined in, you know, that sort of cultural assimilation,
I guess in order to be taken seriously, because if

(17:14):
you were the only person in a truck suit around
the table or a fleece or whatever it was, you know,
with Derbyshire and Peat Park Sport Creation Forum logo on it,
everyone else from the County Council and the Peak District
National Park Authority were in suits and shoes. You didn't.
You didn't kind of have the legitimacy in the room

(17:35):
in those kinds of rooms. And I guess I think
what we've found. You know, when I met a greater
Manchester and the whole Active Souls kind of movement started.
It came out of you know, Rachel Allen and the
NHS team that was part of really kind of expressing
which is a lot of way a lot of good
change happens, isn't it Getting really cheesed off actually with

(17:56):
having to change, you know, carry trainers across town, you know,
come in, yeah, sort of come in trainers, change the shoes,
put the high heels on, and put her other shoes
on the desk. And it wasn't because anyone had told
her she needed to do that. It was just the norm.
We worked in the Mayor's office and the NHS office
in on Oxford Road and everybody, you know, the uniform

(18:16):
of that place was quite traditional officeware. And so Rachel's
like courage to speak up, encouragement from a couple of
us around her to write it down, write a blog.
Brilliant little moment when I think it was Jane Pilkerton,
one of the directors, like put the blog on Andy
Burnham's desk and went, you need to read this. He

(18:37):
then Andy then went send out a mandate and a
message the entire organization to say, you're allowed to wear
trainers to work if if it helps you to be
active in the workday. And then there, you know, loads
of things that followed, and I've written about this. Weren't
going to all the detail now, but the whole like
little micro cosms you as you explained it, that's a
microcosm of movement building, and that has to come from

(19:00):
first of all, I think resistance and a kicking against something,
to then to then you know, making a case of change.
And then the way that it sort of rippled out
was just quite phenomenal. You know. I ended up doing
a ted X talk around it in Oldham and then
the and then there was some pushback against it because

(19:22):
there some people like that, well what about this? What
about this? You know, and and now there are people
who like it became got to the point where people
who had apologized to me for wearing shoes if if
I met them at a meeting and they're like, oh,
listen here, we haven't got a chain off. There's loads
of unintended consequences of that. And then COVID and that
kind of accelerated. I think some of this stuff and

(19:44):
what's really interesting in it, and this is again a
microcosm of the whole kind of question of value and
what makes change happen and how do you know? Because
there's the dress code you know around Great Manchester, but
also beyond the actual partnership networks and other like, people
do dress really differently. Now sometimes it's really explicit invitation,

(20:05):
like the actual partnerships Chairs and sheifos X get together
last week. It was part of the pack to encourage
people to work shoes they can move in. And sometimes
you look and you think, well, I wonder if that
has anything to do with this, And you know, you
can't draw the line of sight from Rachel Allen complaining
at her desk in twenty eighteen through to all the

(20:27):
outcomes and all the emergent value that's come out and
the change in what people wear. There was an asset
I think Assex did an advert around desk, you know,
get away from your desk and all this and then
you could back to involved in Greater Manster. Somebody's sister
in law works for them and comms you know, and

(20:48):
you think that maybe there is a connection, but I
guess what, you know, What's what brings me a lot
of joy is just observing the change and not really
caring too much about where it came from or what
the driver, but it was. Is it in a better
place than we used to be? You know? Are people
able to have walking meetings and be active around their

(21:09):
working day and get the physical, mental health benefits and
creativity and productivity that come from that. Yes, like we're
miles away from where we were eight years ago. Have
I played a part in that? Yes, I'm pretty sure
I have, and that's brilliant. But I don't need to
know how necessarily. I just enjoy the fact that it's
changed and that's pretty awesome and it didn't cost a

(21:31):
penny and there's no grant reporting to go with it.

Speaker 2 (21:38):
Ah, I'm going to resist the temptation to follow that rap.
We Yeah, I mean, just just to like wrap that
a bit. The interesting thing you mentioned there was you
talked earlier about the idea of how possible it is
to create an environment where people feel that they can

(22:01):
bring their authentic self to work and thrive. And one
of the indicators of that, I would argue, is an
individual's willingness to say I'd like to change this, and
that's not and that's in my career, that's not normal.
Like more often than not, it's around about you know,

(22:23):
like you say, assimilation or going along with various things.
That's how you progress. And to create an environment where
an individual felt, you know, comfortable enough and not just
comfortable enough, probably you know, actively encouraged to say, isn't
this a bit daft? Is for me as an indicator

(22:45):
then of a cultural environment where people are now actively
participating in the creation of their working environment, which then
means that they're going to have a better opportunity to
descrive within that. So and then, like you say, there
are ripple effects, but even in just your world, I
feel like that should that's a really strong symbol of

(23:08):
the culture that and therefore, to a certain extent, it's
good segue a strong sort of message behind what you
talk about around your approach to leadership. I mean, I
assume seeing that to a certain extent brings a smile
to your face when it came through as a blog

(23:28):
or whatever it was, because you're like, aha, things are
starting to work.

Speaker 3 (23:31):
This is what we're hoping for. Perhaps yeah, yeah, And you.

Speaker 4 (23:35):
Know, genuinely it matters to me, Like I was just
smiling to thinking in my bathroom where no one else
really goes. I've got a few things around on the wall.
There's a poem that the team wrote my fiftieth birthday
and a thing that my friend wrote my fortieth birthday,
which is like, this is what we see, this is
why you know, this is what you mean to us.

(23:56):
And I hide it in the bathroom because hide thing
was actually said on it. And this has to be
on the WAF at least a year and not in
the bathroom stars put it in the bathroom for ten years.
I think that's fair enough. But Rachel Allen going back
there is the reason for this. Rachel get me a
card when she left the NHS and Great Manchester to
go and work in the cancer team, and exactly that

(24:19):
in the card which is in my bathroom because it
means a lot to me. Is what she said is
what you just said there, which is about the way
that we work together. And I wasn't her line manager
or anything. You know, it was like a blended team.
But she was assigned to work with me on the
GEM moving as a program manager from the Population Health team.
And what she wrote in that card just like really

(24:39):
crystallize what you're saying there about how you create the
conditions in which she could be herself, She could say
what she wanted to say. She was unlocked potential in
her That meant sadly, as often the case, she goes
off and gets a brilliant job in cancer services and

(24:59):
you know that the relationship that's there with her that
goes back you know, it didn't work together for a
massive amount of time, but she's made a massive difference
on me and vice versa. And it's that reciprocal thing,
isn't it of honest, authentic like feedback loops as well,

(25:20):
Because when someone gives you a card that says this
is what matters to me when we work together, you know,
that's something you need to keep in your approach and
grow and that's awesome. Yeah, so yeah, really important.

Speaker 2 (25:35):
I mean again, that's the sort of thing that I
feel really passionately about.

Speaker 3 (25:41):
The reason I do is because.

Speaker 2 (25:44):
I see in certainly the world of sport and the
world of sports coaching, and I think we've definitely seen
this more recently, sadly, is there is a real misunderstanding
around what a performance culture is and what I is
and I've seen it perpetuated over a lot of periods
of time. Is that leaders in performance environments and I'm

(26:09):
going to use coaches in this case because it tends
to be who my audience is. The assumption is that
you need to make things difficult and tough, and we
need to use words like resilience and robustness and all
these sorts of this sort of language, and actually, you know,

(26:30):
you're advocating for almost the opposite. Now that's not to
say that the environment people don't like work really hard
and don't perform really well, but you don't have to
have an environment that evokes the idea of you know, well,
you can either hack it here or you can't sort
of thing. And that's what a performance culture is all about,

(26:52):
to the point where people are like almost feel as
if that they're they just have to exist or survive
within that environment.

Speaker 3 (27:00):
And this is how it is.

Speaker 2 (27:00):
And I've worked in many environments like that in my career,
and so I guess if there's a sort of central
thesis of this podcast, it's about helping practitioners or leaders
of any kind. And we're going to talk about how
you define leaderships absolut you love your definition leadership. It's
how we can support them to sort of see that
there's actually alternative. There's an alternative here. There's an alternative

(27:23):
mode that you can explore where people are playing and
don't have to feel as in fear actually.

Speaker 3 (27:30):
To bring their best.

Speaker 2 (27:31):
And it's actually weirdly, I don't know how to describe it.
It's kind of rare and it's looked on with a
degree of skepticism by quite a lot of people in
a lot of aspects of the sporting world. I really
don't quite know how to address that. But yeah, so
you know you live and breathe this like I know
you do. I've seen You've seen it in action. I've

(27:52):
spoken to people who work for you and they talk
about it with very strong passion. You get advocacy like that,
you get people writing things about it.

Speaker 3 (28:00):
You know, it's it's really interesting.

Speaker 2 (28:03):
Let me before we don't do it because the dangerous
will have a lovely conversation and never talk about stuff
in the book, and I've made lots of references to it,
But just talk to me a little bit about how
you you said of you, how you're defining leadership from
the get go, and then let's start to unpick some
of the other elements that bring that bring that about.

Speaker 4 (28:24):
Yeah, and I'm going to grab a hold of because
I was something that was really making as what we
were saying now, so I'll make it relevant to the
question you're actually asking, because it's about accountability and so leadership.
The moment that came to mind is when the pea
teacher Shirley, who I write about in the book, who

(28:48):
also ran the community basketball club in our school, which
had its sort of facilities open and the events part
of community education being in the commentary, and the youth
worker Vicki, who also was a PE teacher who you
know and had these dual roles in our community, pulled
me into the PEA office when I was about what'll

(29:08):
be now year eight because I got into trouble and
got sense to the unit, which was what happened to
you if you're naughty in our school, and they gave
it to me both barrels, you know, and it was
a thing about accountability, and I was really hacked off
because I was like, well, loads of people in my

(29:29):
class were doing that. Why are you pulling me into
the PE office and having a different conversation with me?
And they didn't say it in these in this way
that in that moment, which because you can understand why,
but basically what I understand the true is they knew
I could do better than that, be different to that,
and carve a different path. And I was probably a
bit before in a rage moment where I was about

(29:51):
to go off the rails, and they pulled me in
and they so for all they created a culture of
nurturing thriving, you know, both in school and in their roles,
they also were ready to have the difficult conversation. And
I think that's that came to mind when you were talking,
because it's not about living in fear or threats. It's

(30:13):
about knowing that you are valued and supported as an
individual and that you will be taken to task and
how to account when you don't need expectations. And I
think that's the kind of sweet spot to be in. So, yeah,
what was your actual question. I think it was relevant
because it goes back to the beginning. Leadership that was
it wasn't it, And that is leadership that is like candid, caring,

(30:35):
challenging leadership in that case from a pe teacher and
youth worker. But the leadership to me, and there's a
little bit a right about in the book, which is
a little exchange that was having with Scott and Stephen
at the time around Scott Hart is like absolute loathing
of the word leadership. And we've argued about it for
ten years because, like I, I see leadership differently and

(30:58):
Steven's offering in to ease a continual argument was, well,
how about we redefine, you know, and we redefine leadership
and we actually really explicitly describe the alternative paradigm around leadership,
which is what we know to be true. And it's
liberating and sort of if you recognize that everyone's a

(31:19):
leader in our organization or in my community or you know,
in a school, in wherever, in society, we all lead
at times in different ways. So it's not like a
trite sort of like strap line to everyone's a leader.
It's a really deep understanding and recognition for me that
leadership happens in micro moments of every day in conversations,

(31:42):
and that that is what we're trying to nurture and
grow here, which is really fundamental to the work. You know,
if you're trying to grow a movement for movement, then
you need to unlock contribution, participation, and leadership in every
bit of our system in every community across Greater Manister.

(32:02):
And in order to do that, like with integrity, you
have to know deeply know that there is leadership is
a trade in every single person. And my dad still,
you know, last week taught me something about leadership because
he although he has never been in a leadership role.
As a lorry driver, he held a mirror up to something

(32:25):
that I was talking about, and we had a little exchange,
and I took what he was telling me, and then
I've learned something from it, and now that's leadership. So yeah,
I don't know if that's where your question was intended
to go, but I think that there are models of leadership,
aren't there, and all sorts of books written about it
and whatever. But I think for me, it sort of

(32:47):
goes back to the point you made earlier about authenticity
and if we just stripped out some of that noise
and allowed ourselves to be human and pat back into
the source, if you like, in terms of who we
are as human beings. I think it comes very naturally
to people to lead if we're not holding back or
putting barriers in our own way. And I have to

(33:10):
see this a lot, have seen it a lot of
my career, people stepping back, not speaking up. This happened yesterday,
somebody saying I don't think that needs to be said
in this room, or who am I to say it anyway?
You know what I mean? Like it happens in micro
moments where people hold themselves back from the leadership that's

(33:31):
actually needed in the world, whereas other people who see
themselves as a leader, who own that as identity, have
positional power and authority, occupy the space. And what I'm
trying to do is unlock, you know, particularly in those
people who don't see themselves as leaders. That potential for

(33:52):
change is huge if we were to do that, including
children in sports clubs, you know, to go back to
the sporting example.

Speaker 2 (34:00):
Yeah, you capture it really well in a there's a
line that I just took a took away, which was
the you said, like, leadership is a practice, not a position,
And I think that's really important in the sense that
it's required to be inhabited, you know, in all of us.
You don't have to have like you say, You don't

(34:20):
have to have positional power or hierarchy in order to
be deemed leader like you say. You know, you can
be a leader within your family, within your community, within
a group of friends. You know, and leadership is not
is not and this is There's a few things.

Speaker 3 (34:37):
There's a few.

Speaker 2 (34:37):
Phrases that I learned from you, and these are almost
like mantras that I think you use as a way
to help people. I guess they're like clever reminders that
people can use as a way of help them navigate
through difficulty and challenge. And like one of them that
I use all the time is laying the road as

(35:01):
we walk together. And the reason I like that is
because it speaks to me about how I see leadership,
which is I'm not in front, I'm not behind, We're alongside,
but I don't necessarily know the way, but I know
that together we'll find a way. And so that I've
loved that man for ever since I heard it, and

(35:22):
I've held on to it all the time. Probably you
will have had it heard on this podcast in the
two hundred and forty episodes that I've done several times.
You probably will have a royalty or something. But my
point being is that and I that really resonates in
terms of just your opener around how you see leadership
when you use a really great quote from Grene Brown,

(35:44):
which I really like, which I was just going to
read because I've got it over you on screen says,
I define a leader as anyone who takes responsibility for
finding the potential in people and processes, and who has
the courage to develop, develop, that potential that should that
would be that if I'd read that previously, I'd have
had that as my tagline for the Flipping podcast. But yeah,
that just brings it to life perfectly.

Speaker 4 (36:04):
Yeah, she's brilliant Brene Brown. She's brilliant with words, but
there's such a depth of you know, like data and
evidence and in her work. But the I actually think
that lay in the road as we traveled together the
first time I heard that phrase. I think. So from
giving credit to the right person here would be Andrew
Danton and Andrew Harrison and Scott Harley did a piece

(36:25):
of evaluation for us in twenty eighteen and they went
around and I've been reading the conscripts of these interviews recently.
They went round and interviewed key people in the Great
Master System to kind of take stop quite early days
of the GEM moving the first sort of year of
might be being imposed, small piece of evaluation to just
observe like what's happening, what's changing, what's going on? And

(36:50):
out of that that series of interviews, tiny budget, by
the way, like minuscule budget, came these pointers for leadership
practice and we and this really matters, like we turned
them into a set of like infographics and cards and
use them. You know, we use them still now, like
we've tested them out as to like whether they're still

(37:11):
fit for purpose and tweaked tiny bits of language, but
not much actually, so they stood the test of time
really well. And that was one of They were sort
of organized into kind of a series and then there
were sub headings underneath each one. But they come from
the evidence. They come from the interviews and the transcripts
and the kind of pattern spotting across what people were

(37:31):
saying about the work and how it was developing and
what they were observing. And we called them the Pointers
for Leadership Practice and matter. In fact, I used two
of them on a slide with the UK Sport yesterday
because they really still FAMI got a lot of value
in them. Yeah, we use them in all sorts of

(37:53):
different ways. But I think that laying the road as
we travel together is either it came out of those
or Andrew already knew that phrase from somewhere else and
used it to kind of really kind of encapsulate what
people were saying about something really important and the nature
of the emergence of a new way of working that

(38:15):
was about actually if the evidence says that that's what
you need to do. Then it could be quite instructuralised
in like resisting the temptation or the pressure to put
everything into a business case, a prince to project plan,
you know, because there was a lot of that anxiety

(38:36):
and this is well, what is this, like, what we're
going to do? Where's the business case? What's the reternal investment?
Back then, and those pointers for leadership practice and the
early emerging evidence that were such powerful tools for me
to go, well, hang on a minute, the evidence says
you've got to lay the roads to travel together. So
let's make that principle and stop Talia to write a

(38:57):
prince to project plan because that would just get us
what we've always gotten. So, you know, they were really
really important, Like what's the word to resist some of
the pressures?

Speaker 2 (39:15):
And this goes back to something you said earlier on
which was about this idea of movement building and the
need for movement building. If we are going to try
and build from the bottom, then there should be some resistance.
It is an act of resistance in some ways. It
is a way of challenging norms, challenging you know, kind
of prevailing ways of being, and starting with ourselves, we're

(39:38):
going to hold ourselves accountable to a set of ways
of being. I use this a lot in the world
of coaching, which is to swarm. I always think of
it as a little bit like with a team sport
environment that we're going to. We've got a little tribe,
and we need to clarify for ourselves how we want
our tribe to be, how we want to be within

(39:59):
our tribe, because the minute somebody does something that doesn't
fit with that, then that has the danger of breaking
the fabric. So we have to get everyone to agree
to the idea that this is the way we're going
to work together, or we're going to try and be
our best together, and we have to hold other accountable
to those ideas. And then those become powerful because what

(40:22):
they're doing is they then start to challenge other cultural
norms and and then break through them. So like music
to my ears, to hint to hear that you know
that one of the things that it brought about a
resistance to was the need necessarily for business cases or
Prince D project plans or project initiation documents, because they
become normalized artifacts of Again this sort of prevailing business

(40:44):
culture that you know that the seriousness we had to
take to it, and there are alternatives, there are different
ways of different ways of thinking about it.

Speaker 3 (40:51):
So I love that.

Speaker 2 (40:53):
I love the fact that it became a real thing
and it helped you with that kind of process of
let's actually start to unpick stuff because I imagine, tell
me if I'm wrong, that that probably then began to
then because that's the sort of stuff you do to
any but if you're a grant making organization, then that's
the sort of thing you do to the people who
are wanting to get the funding to do some good
things in their community or in the world. Okay, well,

(41:15):
we're going to put a load of artifacts related to
seriousness in front of you, and if you get through
all of that, then we might be able to give
you some of that stuff. That stuff I find really
difficult to get to grips with. I mean, I'm in
dangerous territory now, so you know, I don't know.

Speaker 4 (41:33):
There's a brilliant story and it's told it himself on
multiple occasions. Tim Hollinsworth came to visit as early Doors
in his role and we went to Glodip and maged Hussaying,
who does amazing community based work as a leader in
his community, said to Tim, you know, Tim's like I
want looking for advice and what's what's needed and all

(41:53):
of that. And Madge said to him basically onlines of,
you know, for your fifty grand or whatever it was,
we've had to produce all of this, and now we're
not asking you to demonstrate the return the you know,
the two hundred grands worth of work that we've done
in this community. We haven't asked you to, you know,
to report back to us for your contribution. So that
kind of thing. And it's basically sort of paraphrase in

(42:14):
it all, so don't hold me to it. But his
point was and the lasting sort of phrase that Tim
then repeated in multiple places about Magid, saying, don't try
to make us more like you like. We're doing all
of this, you know, in a very organic, human, relational
like emergent way. Didn't use those words, but that's what
they're doing in the community. That's what I do in

(42:34):
our community here. And it comes into like conflict and
dissonance when when you're forced to work in ways that
the system has created to relieve its own anxieties about
return on investment or whatever. And you know, and I
experienced this as a community volunteer and as a trustee
where I live. It's a really challenging and interesting like

(42:56):
have to walk when you are to bring the best
of that to around assurance, accountability and everything to a
community organization without stifling it and drowning it in bureaucracy
and red tape. And that's a really interesting space about
when community leadership professional professional invercom is like formal leadership

(43:19):
come together, which we've experienced like all over the work
in GM Moving and all over my career, but not
so consciously. I feel very conscious of it in GM
Moving because we've got a certain principles and ways of
working around working alongside community leaders and formal leaders working
alongside each other. Differently, what that actually takes in practice

(43:40):
is tough stock, you know, and especially when you create
the conditions rightly so for people to tell you when
it's not and then you know, when people speak truth
to power in that sense in all sorts of whether
that's in my team or whether it's between the community
and the kind of formal leadership is you know that

(44:02):
you are inevitably going to disappoint them because you won't
be able to go as far as some people want you.
And I'm sortain while he's talked about this on podcasts,
you know that like that feeling of like knowing you
can't change things enough for where you want to get
to and governance and processes being you know, this is

(44:23):
evidence from you know, eight years of evaluation in GA
moving the the enabler or barrier to change. That is
most resistance changes around governance and processes, and that is
where people are repeatedly having to find ways to work
around things or you know, like the dismantling of sort
of those barriers is really really hard. And so you know,

(44:47):
when we are distributing grants or investing in communities, you know,
trying to do that differently with with real integrity is
you know, we've moved a long way in the last
few years, but we've there's so much further you could go.

Speaker 2 (45:02):
Yeah, I think that's for me probably one of the
biggest challenges, one of the biggest leadership challenges that a
lot of people face is that you know, on the
one hand, you're you know, you're you're desperately trying you know,
Tim did say that, you know, and I have to say,
you know, as sort of again leadership figures. He's another

(45:24):
one who you know, having spent eight years within Sport England,
you know, I spent you know, a decent amount of
time either with or listening to him, and he captured
an awful lot of what you talk about. But it's
so interesting how as much intent, as much he would

(45:46):
have repeated that almost weekly, don't make us like you,
don't make us like you. But how difficult it is
for people to get past themselves, if that makes sense,
when there's so many I'm going to use this word artifact,
there's so many artifacts that exist within that seem you
can't take those down, can't take that off the walls

(46:08):
that's there. We have to do that that's impossible to break.
And there's a lack of willingness to even embrace the
change that's required. I'm massively in danger of going completely
off piece. But there's a bit there is something about that,
like and I'm really interested to know about like, because
that's where the dip goes to drivens with the sort

(46:29):
of the theory of leadership and leadership only being about
how you behave with others and how you interact to
then actually beginning to physically break some of the culturally
resilient practices, processes, and beliefs that underpin them. In many
cases they're myths, and actually working systematically to.

Speaker 3 (46:50):
Break through those.

Speaker 2 (46:51):
I mean you, I sense that you've had some success
with that, and it's probably not necessarily been.

Speaker 3 (46:56):
Driven by you. It's been driven by the team saying
why why is this? Why is this? Like that? Why
do we wear shoes? Those kinds of things.

Speaker 2 (47:03):
You know, it's the smallest things that then lead to
the bigger breakthroughs, isn't it.

Speaker 4 (47:07):
Yeah? Yeah, yeah, And I could I should write another
book which is like just all the little all the
things that people have come what hang on a minute,
why we do that? Because they are and again and
you know, these moments like the kind of heartsink moments
And at the same time they're exciting moments when somebody
has the courage to question some entrenched belief, mindset, practice

(47:30):
process And I now I observe it for what it is,
which is actual gift. Like it's a gift. It's so powerful,
and I think I feel I do feel quite liberated
these days in the sense of like when you know
that conflict and tension is a gift and isn't is

(47:54):
a and like is a driver for meaningful change. And
you've got a culture in which people are prepared to
ask the difficult questions. And I am honest, allow myself
to be honest with people. And I can think of
multiple examples just from this year being really candid with

(48:15):
people about that point about you know, I'm probably not
going to be able to go as far as you
want with this, or I will fall short in your
eyes on this, but I'm going to try anyway, like
I will. I think when I've got I've got to
the point now where I'll just say it like, and
that is that is one of the things that I
think holds a lot of potential in it because a

(48:38):
lot of the time, when we can't take that thing
down and you can't get rid of that thing or whatever,
I think it's what we probably could have been saying
is I'm too scared to try, and I probably fail
and I might get sacked over it, or I might
end up in court. You know, these are actually the
things that are going through your head when you hold accountable.
You know, when you're responsible accountable things. I've actually just

(49:00):
being honest about that I think is important. For a
long time, there's this separation, I think between the kind
of highest levels of leadership in organizations and then the
people doing the work and a lack of transparency. And
something we've been working on as an execut team this

(49:22):
year is walking a slightly different line between keeping some
of the drama and fear and risk and concern out
of the way of the team so they can get
on and thrive and do their job and love it
and do brilliant work, versus sharing a little bit more
with people so they understand. And that's a really interesting

(49:45):
And there's moments where you think like I would be
in too discreet and protective here, or I'm being you know,
I'm being honest enough about what's holding me back here,
or I'm pretending it's something else, even to myself, And
they're just really interesting, like questions to ask yourself, I think.

(50:06):
And I don't know if this is partly age and
stage of career and the fact that not really got
so much to lose. I'm not trying to prove myself
or carve out a career for myself anymore. Maybe there's
just something about the stage of life where I'm prepared
to be a bit more like that. Or maybe it's
actually because we've got loads and loads of evidence that

(50:27):
demonstrates how important that is and how you're not going
to make meaningful structure or systemic change without it, or
a bit of both, probably you know then, And I
do think I was smiling when you were talking, because
I was talking about this in this UK sport thing yesterday,
and afterwards I thought I was a bit negative there
and a bit like I was talking about how bloody
difficult it is and how you've got to dig keep

(50:49):
digging in like the need for grit and tenacity, and
you know it is it's like hard. It is hard work.
And whilst I have made lots of progress and there's
loads of examples where I can say it was worth
it and it's changed things and and it and it
feels really satisfying, it's the daily act of resistance this work,

(51:12):
and that is it takes a lot of energy and
and there have been times, for all sorts of reasons
over years where I've just said I don't know if
I can have got it in me to keep doing this,
you know, and it would just be easier to go
with the flow, wouldn't it than to go against the
grain sometimes. But maybe part of writing and part of

(51:34):
making stuff so explicit and visible is too subconsciously like, so,
I haven't got a choice to just go with the flow,
because you know, if you're known, if you're known for
in greater Manister doing things differently as the strap line goes,

(51:55):
and you know how to account for it by the
communities that you're there to serve and work alongside, then
you've got to be in that wholeheartedly, aren't you. You're
either all in with that and you hold yourself to
account for it every day, or you probably quit and
go and get an easier job in a different place.

Speaker 2 (52:16):
So, yeah, you made me think of as a great
line in the film the film The Hunt for Red October,
where Sean Connery, who plays this Russian sub submarine captain,
talks about how when Cortes came to the New World,
he burnt his ships so that his officers would be
more motivated. Not saying that you've done that quite but

(52:39):
to a certain extent, you have burnt your ships a
little bit, haven't you, Because you've basically said been very
open with your immediate team members, explicitly open with individuals,
and been prepared to share. This is where I first
learned about what you were doing and shared with others
how you're operating, what you're doing, the under the ugly

(53:01):
underbelly of it all and the difficulty and the challenge,
and you're holding yourself. You're being very honest and holds
are very accountable to those you serve, to the point
where if you didn't then live that immediately, people would
would sort of smell imposta, wouldn't they In some mess
It's quite a useful constraint to place around your own

(53:22):
environment to maintain your honesty to the you know what
it is that you espouse and what it is your
firmly believe, because it's easy to fall out of it
when things get tough.

Speaker 4 (53:32):
Yeah, you just sort of bury it high. Yeah, one
hundred percent. And you know, when you start to talking
about submarines and for October, I think, and there's also
something about holding it or lightly like this isn't a
war zone, you know, and it is joyful work and
it is you know, the passion projects and all the
stuff we're talking about the beginning and it is, and

(53:52):
it is deeply difficult, you know, systemic cultural change work,
and it's fascinating and I love it for what it
teaches me as well. And like so this, I wouldn't
want it to come across like it's all just really hard,
graft and miserable, because it's not, you know, it's it's
full of joy. And I also privately reflect on, you know,

(54:12):
when those feedback leaps. Somebody somewhere else in the country
sent me a message the other week that just said,
I've just been over here, and you know, I just
needed to know that the leadership over there is different
and that's because of you. And I'm like, we dont
really know what you're talking about, but thanks, And I
guess that's the thing, Like I do know that anybody

(54:32):
who is prepared to operate like this and with a
level of vulnerability that that takes is a part of
the change that's needed in the world. And this speaks
I suppose a bit like the Mary Porter stuff in
the book, which you very generously let me use and share,
because I think she encapitulated it really really well, is

(54:53):
that we need a different way of you know, working,
being leading, and the more people that are prepared to
be vulnerable going in with that, the better for me
because I'm you know, I'm not going to feel so
lonely and isolated in it. And it's powerful, like, you know,

(55:13):
one of the things that Greater Manchester the draw to
Greater Manchester and they're doing things differently, and the public
service reform principles that really guided the sort of gave
me a like a rule, you know, if there's a
set of reform principles that Greater Manchester systems signed up to,
that we then poured into gy and moving and poured

(55:34):
into the local delivery pilot principles and it morphed them
into a set of co investment principles that gives you
some different artifacts, you know. And I don't think I
could have cultivated my own leadership in this last eight
years without the sort of air cover if you like,
and instruction if you like, a greater Monster and the

(55:57):
mayor and other key people senior leaders and our system
to both like inspire you to work that way. But
there were some really pivotal moments in my first year
in role where where the feedback came where people saying
you're doing things differently in a way that others in
Greater Manchester could actually learn from, because I sort of
took it all as permission to do things differently, assuming

(56:21):
that everybody in great Manster was also like, well on
with this already. But actually it was I hadn't realized.
It was quite near the beginning of the journey movement,
the greater Old Evolution sort of journey, and the room
was learning, like what does it take. I'm still and
we still are like learning how to go deeper in

(56:43):
that commitment that set out in those reform principles very
early on. So I think in a particular moment in time,
particular context and conditions particular of that place has enabled
me probably a safer space to kind of become the
sort of leader that I need to be. And it's

(57:05):
still every day practice. And yeah, what I.

Speaker 2 (57:10):
Take from that, and what I love about that is
that sort of this is the essence, I guess, to
a certain extent of systems leadership.

Speaker 3 (57:19):
And again I want to do want to delve into
that a bit.

Speaker 2 (57:21):
But you your recognition that the environment forwarded to you
by others around you enabled you to be the best
version of yourself, which then enabled others in your immediate
purview to be the best versions of themselves, which in

(57:41):
turn led them to be the best versions of themselves
with the others that they were working seeking to work
and engage with.

Speaker 3 (57:47):
And how it's nested. And I guess that often, I think.

Speaker 2 (57:51):
Is something that people lose sight of, which is that
the assumption is that you can say to a group
of people, or we like you to be like this,
We'd like you to lead like this, And have had
this experience several times. You know, here's a set of
principles and ideas and without recognizing the immediate environment that
that individual operates. And some of that environment is led

(58:13):
by other people, but some of that environment is led
by as I said earlier, you know culturally, culturally resilient processes.
It's like, well, okay, I'm going to be this person here, yes,
operating in this like massively constraining machine. That's like an
and that's like a kind of that's like a you know,
an experiment in futility. And people find the they're great

(58:37):
against it so much to the point where they actually
feel like I've just run out of energy, and they
either leave or they burn out, or they do whatever
it is. So I think that's a really important insight.
How you can only you're only as effective as you
are as a leader by virtue of how others create
an environment that affords you that possibility.

Speaker 4 (59:00):
Yeah, and I would extend that to I was thinking
back to the second MoU with Sport England. The first
MoU was quite quickly constructed with a small number of
people around the devolution arrangements, and the second MoU was
was people in a room talking equally about the what
and the how and the which then was just I

(59:20):
think before the United Movement and the phrase of the
revolution of the How, and that the conversation that Tim
and I had over the years was always how's how's
the revolution of the how going? Because you know, if
your funders, if your key unders In our case, NHS
great Manster combined authority in Sport England in that nested,
sort of layered way. If you're coming into constant conflict

(59:45):
and dissonance, you know, and there's a dissonance between those
principles and extents which you're living them out in practice,
or your ability to live them out in practice is
constrained by the operating environment of your funders and the
way that they need you to measure and evaluate, for example,
or your line manager or your chair. So one of
the stories I told yesterday, sorry I'm always talking about.

(01:00:06):
The thing I was doing the day before was around
my key performance indicators with Mike, my chair, and that
being around you know, the evolution of those, And the
one I was sharing yesterday was around the key performance
indicator was about it was around integrity. It was you know,
Mike's challenged me the year before last was he wanted

(01:00:27):
he wanted my metric to be around effing, annoying integrity,
which was a brilliant moments which just one made me
really laugh. But also what an amazing key performance indicator
to be like pushing for, which is because because the
reason it's so important it's one of integrity is one
of our organizational values. But the more you live that

(01:00:50):
out goes to what you were saying earlier about communities
or whatever. The more you live that out in practice,
the more the closer you're going to get towards the game.
So in terms of my role and contribution to this work,
that's that's a bar set. Isn't it to be that
tenacious with your integrity that it becomes a bit f
an annoying because it's like, you're not going to get
away with pudgeing this or working around this. You've got

(01:01:13):
to keep dismantling and cutting through what a great KPI
two things?

Speaker 2 (01:01:19):
How do you get a KPI like that? I need
to find myself a chair or someone who's going to
work that with me. Secondly, that's another thing that I'm
going to stamp. This led me to else that you
talk about in the book around leadership, which is this
notion of and it resonated with me, and I think
it's partly where you know, I probably felt this sense
of connection over the years, is this notion of positive disruption.

(01:01:40):
So I once had somebody say to me it was
kind of a learning and development individual within an organization
I was working with. You said to me, you're a
positive disruptor, and I was like, or a disruptive innovator
might have been the language I used. Either way, I
can't remember. I remember it sitting with me, and I
initially felt a little bit taken in a back and

(01:02:01):
the most positive way, and then I came to like
wear it as a bit of a badge of honor.
Talk to me a little bit about how that manifests
for you.

Speaker 4 (01:02:12):
Well, I just think it's fascinating, isn't it that the
cultural norm of a myth that's built up around the
word disruption is negative, is assumed to be a negative thing,
when actually there are so many norms holding things in
place in terms of inequalities and you know, inequity that
we that your instinctive reaction to being called a disruptor,

(01:02:35):
even though it had a tag of positive next to it,
was like, oh, hand on a minute, I'm not sure
I want to be called disrupted when actually what is
needed is disruption. And I think that's sort of you know,
that's really important. And to have a chair and a
board who are deeply committed to you know, systemic change

(01:02:58):
and understand and I've got you know, we could talk
about the role of you know, of boards and that
whole journey. If you've thought about our career and sort
of like governance of the work over the last thirty
years and the way our expectations and asks of trustees
or boards has changed over that time. I think that's

(01:03:19):
a really significant thing that gets overlooked sometimes because they
are you know, my chair and my trustees if I'm
leading a charity, are either creating the conditions for us
to do what we need to do or they're or
they're actively holding us back from it. And that that's

(01:03:40):
an interesting little, you know, sort of observation. I think
from as we've got our board meeting tomorrow, you know
that I'm just thinking about the role because as we've
been talking, various people have come to my mind about
the different ways in which they have enabled and supported
and count sword and you know, guided me in this

(01:04:03):
work and challenge and really challenged me as well. Yeah,
that's there's a lot. Yeah, there's a lot about who
creates the conditions and how they create their conditions for
actually live this stuff out in practice, and.

Speaker 2 (01:04:20):
A lot of people and I certainly the reason I
think I probably bristled with the notion of being named
as a disruptor.

Speaker 3 (01:04:28):
Was because.

Speaker 2 (01:04:32):
I associated it with being career limiting because of most
of the environments that I'd been into up to that
point where it genuinely was career limiting. There was no
advantage to it didn't seem like there was much of
an advantage to actually doing things differently on your occasion.
Getting a few things wrong because you're doing it differently,
which comes with the territory that never seemed to get

(01:04:55):
you anywhere. The people who seemed to do well were
the people who kind of stayed within the boundaries or
you know, stayed within the book and did the job
kind of as it was mapped, and therefore, you know,
never really got anything wrong, and therefore they just seem
to do okay. And then and maybe this is just

(01:05:17):
my personal petty jealousy as to how my careers turned out.

Speaker 3 (01:05:19):
I don't know, there's just.

Speaker 2 (01:05:20):
That I never I've just it just really that's why
it sort of jumped out at me, because it felt,
you know, it felt to me like, well, it's definitely
I've come now to work like if if it is
going to be career limiting, that isn't a career I
necessarily want to be in, or I'll find different ways.
But you know, I've definitely found that there's more to

(01:05:40):
be gained by positive disruption, and I'm going to really
lay on the positive not the disruption piece, because in
the past I perhaps have just been a bit disruptive,
and now I understand the difference between the two. It
was always from a good place but not always necessarily
in the right way. But my point being is is
that I feel like act those people who are in

(01:06:01):
leadership roles who actively embrace positive disruption, I just think
it's very few and far between, certainly in my experience.

Speaker 4 (01:06:16):
So yes, a little bit of me like a bit sick,
I'm thinking about all those moments where because it does
speaks to me, which is when you're the leader of
an organization and you cultivating the conditions for people to
speak up and be and challenge and you know, there's

(01:06:40):
two things I was just trying to explain to somebody
yesterday about there's a there's a difference between like I'm
just gonna put on in the two difficult box because
I know we can't change those systems and processes because
I've been trying to change change with thirty years and
got nowhere. Or there's or there's at its best. I

(01:07:02):
think the conversation that I was thinking about yesterday, which
I won't name explicitly, but it's about where somebody is
being really courageous and challenging me and or asking for
something that needs that they believe needs to happen at
its best, I would take the time to be and

(01:07:22):
be courageous enough to be open and transparent about some
of the other things that I might be holding as
the leader of the organization in that moment. That might
be something around my legal responsibility is the Charities Commission,
you know, the law, the boards view of the world,
or what they're prepared to do, not whatever. So at
its best, it's an open and transparent conversation about the

(01:07:48):
need for change, being able to be honest that I
agree with you on a personal level, Like if I
can share my personal view on something to go, you know,
I'm we're in the same space, but this is what
I'm holding, like accountability wise, that might get in the
way of what we can or can't do or do
or don't decide to do. And then and then the

(01:08:11):
honesty about my own fears and anxieties, and that might
be downe toying. I just haven't got the headspace or
the time or the energy just right now. It's not
the most important thing. There's so much going on in
that like interaction that can be felt. If you're not
open enough about it, it can be just felt as
like you're just sort of pushing somebody away or you're

(01:08:31):
ignoring what they're asking for or you're minimizing their concern,
and it can be a gulf. There can be like
a gulf between the senior leadership and the either the
community person or the people in my team who are
actively pushing for change. But sometimes it is about their
lack of knowledge, insight, understanding, wisdom, experience as well, like

(01:08:53):
and you know, I've been working with that quite a
lot this year in different ways, like trying to understand
the nature of the inflict, closing the gap in understanding
on all sides of something, and then going right. So
given all of that, like how do we want to
what can what's within our sphere control and influence and
what do we want to actually put our energy into

(01:09:13):
to shift this? But that all takes a lot of
time and energy in itself, doesn't it Like it's And
that's where the tenacity and the integrity comes in, which
is I'm not just going to not reply to your
email or I'm not just going to brush you aside
when you've come to talk to me about this thing,
because it really matters to you and it really matters

(01:09:34):
to the work. So yeah, I think I wouldn't say
I probably wouldn't, in summary, use the word positive disruptor.
I wouldn't use it to describe somebody because I think
it is loaded with judgment. I'll ponder, like, what's the

(01:09:56):
there's other terms that could be used that people might
embrace more wholeheartedly and want to own as part of
their identity, because I do think, you know, courageous innovator
might have been a better phrase for you off the
top of my head. And there definitely is something in

(01:10:19):
what you've said, the kind of honest reflection of like
was I always was sometimes just being disruptive because actually
that's what I find hard. Like if someone's just being
disruptive and shouty and you know, opinionated without any real constructing,
constructive sort of engagement in the bigger picture or the

(01:10:41):
other drivers, then they're just it's noise. And it's very
easy to do that without the constructive, like contribution side
of it.

Speaker 3 (01:10:52):
Yeah.

Speaker 2 (01:10:54):
Yeah, it's interesting though, because I think what you talk
to what you speak to, And I think this is
just reflecting on this based on some things I did
on the weekend which I'm not overly happy with. You know,
when things weren't going very well in a game and
my behaviors shifted, and my interactions with a couple of players,

(01:11:20):
probably one of which was most didn't necessarily manifest particularly well.

Speaker 3 (01:11:26):
And I think it's interesting because, uhh, this notion of.

Speaker 2 (01:11:36):
Whether whether you describe it as just disruption or not,
but what you were speaking to there, for me was
this idea.

Speaker 3 (01:11:42):
Of you are.

Speaker 2 (01:11:46):
You're meeting people halfway, So what you're saying to them
is you're I know, you are doing your absolute best.
You're looking people in the eye, and sometimes it feels
as if you're having to almost like defend the interfence
or you're having to apologize because there's something you can't
you can't you can't meet them where they're at, to

(01:12:08):
use another phrase, or help them to achieve what is
what is they want to achieve within their own world
and community and immediacy for reasons that don't seem like
that they should exist. They feel wrong, they feel against
the sort of prevailing culture that we're trying to operate within.
And then that lends Sometimes two are very difficult, I
think sometimes quite difficult ethical decision. It goes back to

(01:12:29):
your point about you know, do you you know need
to sometimes be the individual who says, look, the stuff
I can't really let you know that you need to
understand that I I these are the barriers or do
you are you more open and more transparent and say, look,

(01:12:50):
this is the game we're playing here, these are the
rules we have to play by. There's some of these
things that we can we can play around with, but
majority of it is it's like it's like this or
go to jail and being open about that kind of
thing and being meeting people and saying, look, how can
we try and get as far as we can towards
what you're trying to achieve within the boundaries of the

(01:13:12):
constraints that we operate within. And all of these dynamics
are always constraints based the big thesis of the podcast
as well, talking about constraints and how we can utilize
constraints to empower rather than necessarily just to always feel
as if they're stopping us doing things. And so you
made me think about that a little bit because I
was sort of thinking to myself, you know, maybe I
need to be a little bit more transparent about what

(01:13:33):
I'm holding. What I was holding at the time was anxiety, stress,
lots of fear, loss of control, and that manifested in
some ways of being that I'm not particularly proud of,
and I'll probably talk to people about over the next
couple of days. So useful, thank you for that. You
really made me think about that. But equally, this notion

(01:13:53):
of the how much we give is something that I
wrestle with quite a bit.

Speaker 4 (01:14:00):
Yeah, and there are absolutely it's like that I would
always stand by which I'm not going to share everything
with you because it's not right too, or it's not
you know, safe to or whatever that is being honest
about it. So sometimes it is a case, say, there's
other things going on here, I can't share the detail
of them with you, but you need to know that

(01:14:21):
is the line you have to walk sometimes. And then
if you've got trust and respecting each other, people will
absolutely understand, you know, have the maturity and the kind
of you to understand that. But I think so much
about like the more we can be explicit, even if

(01:14:42):
the being explicit is like the sun that I can't
tell you here, rather than just assuming that people understand
that or even thinking that way. And I just the
other thing I love just to I love the fact
that because you you know, like you were saying about
me earlier. You make very visible through a podcast and
through all the stuff you're doing, the kind kind of
like coaching environment and the kind of team environments that

(01:15:02):
you are striving for I'm working on and practicing yourself.
And then when you fall and the fear the number
of times I have hesitated to click publish on a
blog over the years because the fear is, if I
write about this, I will fall short about I will
fall short in it myself tomorrow. And you know, and
so that if I've said, if I've published something that

(01:15:26):
describes the world I want to see and how I
want to be, I have to sit with that discomfort
of just knowing that I am going to fail quite
you know, that can be short. So like there's a
real vulnerability in that because if you're being a bit
of a crap coach on whatever, that the what I fear,
and it's never happened, by the way, is then people

(01:15:47):
love in stones like you because when you say you're like,
you know, that's the fear, isn't it. Like publishing a book,
publishing a blog, doing a podcast, is that you lay
yourself open to criticism and attack because you can never
live up to all this stuff yourself.

Speaker 3 (01:16:03):
That's what I like though.

Speaker 2 (01:16:04):
And this is, by the way, I'm not just saying
this because you're on my podcast and I know we've
got a little bit of time pressure now, but I'm
not just saying this on the podcast.

Speaker 3 (01:16:11):
It's the best leadership book I've ever read.

Speaker 2 (01:16:15):
There's just so much in it, and it's one of
those where I'm going to have to watch it or
not watch it read it again because what I love though,
in particular, is how real and practical it is. So yes,
you're talking about concepts, ideas, theories, all those sorts of things,
but they're very real. They're grounded in reality, they're grounded
in who you are and your own biography, and it's

(01:16:39):
you know, it's very much sort of your way of
doing things. And what I love about that is is
and this is one of the reasons that people can't
throw stones is is that. And this is where I
like where you go, which is you say, leaderships of practice.
So it's not something that you're going to be, not
something you're going to have every single time and nail
it down. It's something you're just going to aspire to,
something you're always going to try and be better at
it's a process of kind of self actualized almost in

(01:17:00):
those ways that that is riddled with error mistakes, and
that's actually part of the journey. And you're very explicit
about that in how you articulate the way in which
you think about and approach the app and the practice
of leadership. And so for me, that's the biggest and
strongest thing that came through. And how can you throw

(01:17:22):
stones at someone who just goes out there and says,
I'm just trying to get better at.

Speaker 4 (01:17:24):
This, honestly, Like, there's a whole other conversation we could
have about the absolute like pain of writing a book
and publishing it. And it has We've clicked published and
Amazon are just reviewing it and seeing if it's any
good and then it should be out tomorrow. Decide with

(01:17:46):
my board meeting, which is just quite serendipity really because
again the board and you know, the mic and people
around that table have atively helped me overcome my own
resifference to change around this. Like it's been such a
fascinating process. It means a lot to me that you've gone,

(01:18:09):
there's there's value in this, because there's so many times
on the process where you start to think is this
even work, like is this even telling people something that
they don't already know? Or is it even not worthwhile
because you get so tired of looking at it, and
you know, in the kind of editing process. But so
the process of writing a book, I know I am

(01:18:30):
going on to I will part way through the second book,
which hopefully will be less painful than this one has been,
because I have had to do so much work in
coaching to in order to reach tomorrow, like honestly, so
different to blogs as well, like we'd like fascinating. So
there's a whole book to be written about how to

(01:18:50):
write a book and how to get out of your
own way and to the point where you know, I
had to meet when it became more of an organizational
thing a couple of months ago, when the marketing team
got in and basically the people who are going to
turn the cogs on creating an account and doing all
the like stuff on rubbish to get it over the line.

(01:19:11):
And I was honest again and there was a moment
of absolute clarity and this strategic comms like meeting with
our marketing team where Andrew said to me, well, what
is it going to take for us to now get
this over the line. And I said, honestly, you just
need to take get me out of the way now
that time, hands be on my back, moved me to
one side, and get on with it, because I will
put the brakes on this repeatedly if you let me.

(01:19:33):
You stay involved at this point because the fear is
just huge.

Speaker 1 (01:19:37):
And then.

Speaker 4 (01:19:39):
And then Beth went, and then there was another stuff,
and then Beth went, well, let me read it, and
then she took it away and read it and came
back and went, it's bloody brilliant. Get over yourself. We're
getting on and publishing it now. I was like, ah,
you know, and so you saying that it's worth doing
is so valuable to me because it's it's so I'm

(01:20:05):
doing it again.

Speaker 2 (01:20:07):
Well, two things. I'm really glad that you over, you
went through the struggle and overcame. And secondly, I'm glad
that number two is in the way because it means
we can have another conversation like this. So uh yeah, no,
sorry that I could. There's so many more things that
we could have talked about. And I'm as usual, I've
gone off from different directions. But and I know that
you've got people to meet and see. I want to

(01:20:30):
just say I really appreciate you spending the time with
me to talk about it. I really appreciate you sending
me an advanced copy. There is so much that I'm
going to take away already have taken away. And yeah,
thank you once again.

Speaker 4 (01:20:44):
Thank you. Absolutely loved it. Let's let's do it again.

Speaker 1 (01:20:53):
Thanks for listening to the Talent Equation podcast. If you
like the show, then please consider supporting it by leaving
a review on your favorite podcast player, telling your friends
about it, or even becoming a hero and show your
appreciation by becoming a patron. Just head over to the
Talentequation dot co dot uk and click on the becoming
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"Leadership is a practice...not a position" - a conversation with Hayley Lever

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.css-14f5ked{margin:0;word-break:break-word;display:-webkit-box;-webkit-box-orient:vertical;box-orient:vertical;-webkit-line-clamp:2;overflow:hidden;}"Leadership is a practice...not a position" - a conversation with Hayley Lever