"Menschenfenger" - exploring the way that Germany approaches coach development - a conversation with Jonathan Harding - The Talent Equation Podcast

Episode Transcript
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Speaker 1 (00:01):
Welcome to the Talent Equation Podcast. If you are passionate
about helping young people join leash their potential and want
to find ways to do that better, then you've come
to the right place. The Talent Equation Podcast seeks to
answer the important questions facing parents, coaches, and talent developers

(00:22):
as they try to help young people become the best
they can be. This is a series of unscripted, unpolished
conversations between people at the razor's edge of the talent
community who are prepared to share their knowledge, experiences and
challenges in an effort to help others get better faster. Listen, reflect,

(00:43):
and don't forget to join the discussion at the Talent
Equation dot co dot uk.

Speaker 2 (00:49):
Enjoy the show.

Speaker 3 (01:06):
Well, I'm delighted to welcome Jonathan Harding to the Talent
Equation Podcast. Jonathan welcome, Sure, Thank you so much having me.

Speaker 4 (01:14):
It's great to be here.

Speaker 3 (01:14):
Oh, fantastic, fantastic, I am.

Speaker 4 (01:17):
We reached out.

Speaker 3 (01:18):
I reached out to you on Twitter to connect because
I've read your book, which is fantastic, which is called
mench Beyond the Cones And obviously as soon as I
saw you know the subtitle being beyond the Cones. I
was immediately hooked in and I got into the book
and you know, it's all about coaching in Germany and
really really interesting. But before we jump into the book,

(01:40):
because it's there's so much to get into there, I
wonder if you wouldn't mind just kind of telling telling
the audience a little bit about you and your journey
in football and also in terms of what you do
on a day to day basis.

Speaker 4 (01:52):
Yeah. Absolutely, Well, I'm a freelance sports journalist who focuses
specializes in German football. I've been covering German football ever
since I university. I studied Germany University. I've spent a
lot of time in Germany and German speaking countries throughout
my life. So the language has always been something that's
been very close to me, which is part of the
reason why the chapters are named the way that they

(02:14):
are with German words. I was very fortunate to have
that connection with language from an early age because I
think it left such a big impact on made it
shilli the impact on me as an individual. And Yeah,
once I finished university, I got an internship in Munich.
I worked down there doing some translation work for Bunzigi
clubs doing some social media work down there, and then

(02:36):
around the twenty fourteen World Cup, just beforehand, I got
an opportunity to do some freelancing for Germany's international broadcaster,
which is the W which made me move up a
little bit further north towards Cologne, and that's why I'm
based now, and I do a lot of freelance work.
I've done some work for publications in the UK as well,

(02:58):
you know Fourth for two and the likes, but my
focus has always been on German football. And yeah, about
two and a half three years ago, I took up
on myself to write this book and I wanted to
shed a bit more light on coaches and on human
beings because I felt like football was neglecting that aspect
and not talking about humans enough. And yeah, here I

(03:18):
am today fortunate enough to speak to you about it,
so thank you.

Speaker 3 (03:22):
Well, I mean, the fascinating thing from my perspective was well,
and the first question I was I was going to
ask you, really was what made you write a book
about coaching and coaches? Because it's not as if you know,
ordinarily most books in football are written usually about footballers
or or you know, if they are written about coaches,

(03:42):
it's usually from the perspective of the coach as you know,
in a particular role, for example in a club, and
their success stories, and it's usually that kind of behind.

Speaker 4 (03:51):
The scenes thing.

Speaker 3 (03:52):
But you've gone foot broader than that. You've looked at,
you know, kind of coaching full stop in general, as
well as coach aspects of co development, how coaches are learning,
and all those sorts of things were softly, absolutely fascinating
from my perspective. But I was assuming that I might
be like an audience of one, and so I just
made you go in that direction.

Speaker 4 (04:11):
No, I think it was just I felt like that
wasn't enough conversation around the coach. You know, you're right
to point out that a lot of football publications and
media focused on players themselves, but you know, ultimately we
don't talk about coaches very often outside of the win
or loss column or the hired or fired column. And

(04:31):
I think there's a lot of ground there that needs
to be covered because ultimately, these are the individuals that
are in charge of these players and these people that
these persons development. You know, you can't escape that, and
I think we need to have a little bit more
time and focus and appreciation for the work that these
coaches put in, you know, whether that's a head coach

(04:53):
or members of a coaching staff. I felt there was
a need to do that. I felt from a German perspective,
you know. I read Living on the Volcano Michael Cavin,
and I thought it was such a great book and
insight into the struggles of coaches in the UK. And
I thought it's strange. You know, Germany won the World
Up in twenty fourteen. A lot of people look at
Germany is having sort of the blueprint for coaching in
many regards and for football generally, and yet nobody's really

(05:16):
talking about that. So it was the combination of those
two things that sort of kicked me into action, if
you like. And then, you know, it took me a
long time to travel around the UK and Germany to
get the stories, I suppose, but also just to speak
to the people that knew more than I did. And
I was able to share those stories and to shed

(05:36):
some light on how many things a coach must consider
when it comes to doing their job. And I don't
just mean, you know, setting up a team for Saturday.
I mean, you know, approaching, being hired, being fired, how
to handle training, how to handling the media. There's just
so many things that a coach needs to deal with,
and I didn't feel like enough enough time was spent

(05:58):
considering that or talking about them.

Speaker 3 (06:00):
And I think that's one of the brilliant things for me,
is it really does shed a light on that, and
I think I think that's that's missing, in my opinion,
in a lot of narratives about coaching, it's sort of
assumed that first and foremost it's about, you know, kind
of buying the best players, and then almost everything else

(06:22):
sort of takes care of itself. But and I know
that's not necessarily true because people do, I think, generally
understand that the coach, you know, plays an important role. However,
I don't think people have fully understood what goes into
the development of a really high quality coach, and also
the scale and complexity of the role, particularly nowadays.

Speaker 4 (06:44):
Correct absolutely, and you know, having the opportunity to understand
and listen to people go into the details of that
complexity was kind of mind blowing. You know, even as
a as a journalist who's been in and around football
for quite a few years. You don't always get that
greater understanding. Clubs can be quite closed off about that,
and I can understand why. But having the opportunity to

(07:05):
speak to some people who are open and willing to
tell me about the complexity of some of those things,
it really does make you think and reassess, because if
you consider that, then the way that you view a
game on Saturday completely changes, and I think then your
assessment of coaching would have to change. You know. Actually,
I think a lot of coaches need to take that

(07:25):
into consideration. I Mean, I'm always say I'm not a coach.
I'm not here sitting here telling coaches what to do.
But from the experiences that I had writing this book
and from what the coaches who I spoke to told me,
it certainly seems to be a case of there needs
to be a greater sense of I'm not going to
assess or evaluate my week based on the result on Saturday,
because ultimately, you know, I could have had a great

(07:47):
week and we would have lost on Saturday and everything
is now rubbish because we lost on Saturday. Well, and
that's completely wrong. You know, we may have had a
terrible week and one on Saturday, and everyone's pattering me
on the back. So you know, the way that you
assessed that as a coach needs to change. But I
think also, as you say in your right to point
this out, we on the outside, you know, whether we're
fans or journalists or whoever, we also need to consider

(08:09):
that those two things are very different.

Speaker 3 (08:12):
Now, just as a starting point, actually, I mean you
call the book Mensch, and that really I mean it's
I think it's literally page one you explain what why
it's called Mensch, and what the and what the what
that's an abbreviated reference to. I'm not going to well,
I was going to try. I did the se German, right,
So I was going to try and go, you know,

(08:33):
kind of what ment stands for or what it's an abreviate.
So I'm going to go for it. Mentioned Fanger, Is
that any anywhere near close?

Speaker 4 (08:41):
Mentioned? Yeah? Not bad, not bad.

Speaker 3 (08:45):
So just explain a bit about what what that means
and then what their reference because that really captured me.
That description of or that way of capturing a coach's role,
I think is quite different from I think how some
people would perceive a coach, but certainly coaching in Germany,
which has probably an unfair reputation in a particular way.
But yeah, explain that a bit more for me.

Speaker 4 (09:07):
Well mentioned in itself is a German word for human
or you know, person, But it's also a word that
can be used in German when you're aggravated, you know,
you would say oh mens you know, okay, sort of frustrated,
you know, in a way that in English we would say,
oh man, come on, you know. So it's actually funny
that it has that level. And in Yiddish it actually

(09:28):
means a good person, a person of high standing quality
sort of thing. So there are so many levels to
the word, but it actually works so well on its own.
And obviously this book is really about getting into the
essence of what it is to be a coach based
on human values, so that's why the word works so
well for me. And mentioned Fenger is someone who you know,

(09:51):
you believe in and that you would run through walls for,
you know, and that's really at the core extension of mensh.
You know. It's something that I think is such a
valuable trait for coaches to have. The Openkrop is the
obvious example for that. People who you hear about players
who play in his teams who are always willing to
say that they would run through walls for him. It
doesn't have to be that way. There are many ways

(10:13):
for a coach to motivate you as a player. But
listening two people doing the research for this book, listening
to people tell me about those traits, it was really
obvious to me that you cannot. I mean, in some cases,
I think you can't help it, but I think in
most cases you cannot be successful as a head coach
unless you are someone who is able to captivate a room.

(10:36):
And I mean that as a collective, but also in
the sense I understand the individual needs of every single
member of this twenty five man squad, but I am
also able to bring those individual needs together to form
a strong collective. And if those individuals respect and follow you,
then you are obviously someone who is worth believing in

(10:56):
and running through wallsville, you know. Proverbally speaking, That's really
what was at the core of it. And that's not
a uniquely German trait. But the beauty of the German
language is that these words can sometimes have such poetic meaning.
I sometimes think that English is missing that in some respects.
I mean, take Leidenschaft, which is the first chapter. Liden

(11:18):
Shaft is the German word for passion, and yet half
of that word leiden is to suffer. That is the
verb for to suffer. So actually, anyone who's a football
fan or a sports fan would obviously agree that if
you are passionate about something, aka supporting a team, there
is a degree of suffering in that passion. And I
think that's the same for coaching, that's the same for playing.

(11:40):
So there are some wonderful aspects of the German language
that I felt like I couldn't ignore, and that's why
they're included in the book, and that's part of the
reason why the book is called.

Speaker 3 (11:49):
Mention Well, and that's why I think that was one
of the things that really captured me was actually the
beauty and like you say, almost the poetry of mentioned Wenger,
because it, you know, literally translated, you know, as you
as you point out, it's like, you know, human catcher
or people catture and something about that, not not in
a I mean I think to some people it might
evoke the idea of you know, some sort of some

(12:11):
sort of dark, you know, villain that's scooping up people
but it's that what that's exactly kind of how I
suppose many of the people who've come on the podcast
we I think probably conceive of coaching in this way.
It's a way of catching, you know, the essence of
another human being and enabling them and supporting them on
a journey of developments and and that it really grabbed

(12:35):
me that just right from the start, this idea of
conceiving of coaching in that way, because I think a
lot of people see coaching as quite a technocratic type
of pursuit. You know, it's very much about what you
do on the pitch, and it's very much about the
kind of you know that the you know, it'll be
about the analysis stuff. I mean, you do go into
analysis of the analysis side of things, but it's very

(12:55):
much about that what I would call the hardware side,
you know, very much the on pitch side, or the
physical sign whereas you're you're really capturing there with that
or I think what's being captured by that word, and
a lot of what you're talking about is very much
the human piece, which is a story that's not told
very well or very often, and is I think a
really missing narrative in a lot of a lot of

(13:16):
stuff we talk about amongst coaches, we'll talk about it
all the time, but in the popular narrative, we're not.
It's almost as if, yeah, yeah, that's the pink and
fluffy stuff. We really want to get into the hardware
because that's really where it is all happening. And I
think that's a really nice way, Like you say that,
the poetry of that, that that capturing of what I
believe the coaching coaching experience should be like is is

(13:37):
really nice.

Speaker 4 (13:38):
Yeah, it's important that you mentioned that because I think
it's true that the modern, you know, broader perception of
that it doesn't exist, and we need to do more
to re engage people and that, you know, to make
sure that they're aware of that, because I think it's
too easy to forget that coaches or players or anyone
involved in professional football is not is a human being.

(13:59):
It's too easy to forget that, you know, all of
the things that you endure in your life as an
individual are not too dissimilar from someone who is on
a professional stage in that situation. The only difference is
the pressure, expectation, and obviously the finance. But that's affecting
them but they're still enduring some of the same things
that you are. You may have a really tough day
at work, you may have a really tough week in

(14:19):
your life, and yet you have the privacy sometimes to
deal with that without everybody focusing on you. And yet,
as a professional athlete or as a coach, whatever it is,
whether you're the player or the coach, if you have
the same issues in the same situation, you've got the
whole world looking at you, and you know, there's this
feeling of, oh, well, there's not enough room here for
me to be open and honest and to be a
human in this situation. Well that needs to change. I think,

(14:42):
you know, to be a good coach, you know, is
one of the coaches actually said this to me. To
be a good coaches to be who I am, or
is to be a coaches to be who I am
as a human being. And I think some coaches will
probably say that that's not how they've approached the profession.
But I would argue that the best coaches in the
world at the moment are the truest representations of themselves

(15:02):
as human beings one hundred percent.

Speaker 3 (15:05):
And I think again, I think that's something that I think,
you know, I think I've heard a lot of people
get a bit frustrated by amongst you know, kind of
like coaching peers, if you like, you know, for example,
you know, you see images of say, for example, Guardiola,
you know, kind of still sort of instructing on the sideline,
or or still talking to somebody like Raheem Sterling, you know,

(15:27):
moments after they've you know, just won a major trophy
about areas of improvements, and there's this sort of sense that, oh, yes,
here he is this great teacher, this person who's you know,
constantly providing instruction and new knowledge. But what what they
don't realize is the level of connection and the level
of the strength of relationship that one must have with

(15:48):
a player like someone like Raheem Sterling to be able
to do that in that moment, and for that person
to be an absolutely active recipient, as opposed to someone saying,
hang on, coach, let me go and celebrate. You know,
we just want a big trophy here, and they're missing
they're missing those kind of key ingredients. It's really important.

Speaker 4 (16:06):
Yeah, I mean, you couldn't do that if you if
you didn't have that relationship with the player. You wouldn't
be able to sit them down or even you know,
straight after such an intense level of performance, say that
was brilliant. We just won. You've reached the pinnacle. But
I want you to work on this, this and this,
and you have to be able to have a relationship
between some you know, otherwise you wouldn't be able to

(16:26):
do that. You know, and as you say, you wouldn't
be able to broach someone on that subject. And I
was fortunate enough in the work for this book to
be able to speak to a lot of people who
were able to shed light on that process and the
number of challenges that coaches have to face in that
situation and the things they have to adapt to. And
I think one of the things that is so difficult
for coaches in the modern era is handling the power shift.

(16:47):
I think there's a lot of power now with players,
and if they're not getting played or they don't feel
comfortable in a situation, then they're able to force a move,
or they're able to speak to their agent and try
and you know, navigate or create situation that works in
their favor. I think that affects coaching. I think that
affects atmosphere and I think that affects relationships. I think
that makes life far harder for a coach, and it

(17:08):
takes a human response. I think in order to convince
a player that perhaps a move to another club for
a high amount of money, for a two hundred percent
increase in their wages is not worth it, because maybe
there's a human aspect there that doesn't work. And I
think that's a conversation that you would need to have,
and that's the one you can only really have if
you have a strong relationship. Countering these forces and the

(17:31):
shifting power in football now is one of the reasons
that having strong relationships and understanding human values is so important,
because otherwise coaches are going to be under even more
pressure and they're going to struggle even more because if
you can't sit down with the player and say, look,
I know that you want to make this move. I
know that forty million is a lot of money. I
know you've always wanted to play in that league, but

(17:51):
you don't know that culture. You can't speak that language.
Is your family going to be happy there? Are you
going to be happy here? Give me one more year
in this team. We've got something special here. You obviously
feel at home. Speak the language here. You know, you'll
be more mature, you'll be ready for it. You can
have that conversation at any time, but it is probably
going to be more effective if you have a relationship

(18:11):
with a player who truly understands you and who respects you.
So again, you know, without the human values in the game,
it's almost impossible, I think, to be successful or to
build something. You know, Urgenklops work at Liverpool. Even before
he won the Champions League, he had already won for
me in the sense that he had connected with the
community again. He had got Liverpool fans talking about and
supporting their team like they hadn't done in the last

(18:33):
five ten years. He got youth players into the first team.
He got players that were never ever looking like they
were going to be anything suddenly believing in themselves and
reaching unbelievable levels of confidence. And what he was able
to do I think is, you know, obviously the football
improvements made in the end the right people in place
tactically and analytically, but he was able to connect on
a human level, both of the community and the team,

(18:54):
and that was the difference. And eventually he wants something
which is not a surprise.

Speaker 3 (18:58):
And people make a lot about just toking about Klop.
People make a lot about, you know, kind of for example,
his sideline antics, so to speak. But I just think
that's a genuinely honest representation of who he is again
as a human being. You know, you talk about the
passion he he you know, he lives and breathes that
kind of passionate intensity, and that comes out in a

(19:21):
myriad of ways, sometimes by him, you know, going berserk
on the sideline, and sometimes by him you know, walking
around and looking after players in a in a really
nurturing kind of way. You see all You see all
aspects very much, very visibly, don't you.

Speaker 4 (19:36):
Yeah. I mean that's what makes him him. And he's
always been charismatic. He's always been someone who's been very
open with his with his approach to coaching. And that's
one of the reasons why I think I was keen
to have him as the quote of the last chapter,
because I think it's important that we don't just focus
on the end result. Because he's never focused on the
end result. I mean, he says at the end, or
I put at the end this quote, in all departments

(19:56):
of life, including your job. If only the best counts,
an effort doesn't care, then life is shipped. And quite honestly,
he's right because you can't only assess victory in the
form of points or trophies. And that's what I mean
about him already having won. What is a sports team?
What is a football team?

Speaker 3 (20:16):
It is?

Speaker 4 (20:16):
It is a sports team reflecting the values of a community,
theoretically right, and young Klopp has managed to re ignite
those values in that community. And I don't I mean,
I've spoken to Liverpool fans who say, you know, before
he came, I didn't realize how bad a fan I was,
And look at what he's done for that community. And

(20:37):
then you ask the players. I mean vergel bad Dyke,
I mean he the way that he talks about Youngen Klopp,
Andy Robinson, the development that he has taken as an individual.
These are all just small examples. And that's not to
say that all German coaches are like Youngen Klopp, obviously not,
or to say that all coaches should approach the same
the same method as Youngen Klopp, because actually it only

(20:59):
works for him because so charismatic, and that's how it
works for him. There is a way that a quiet coach.
Chris Houghton, one of my favorite coaches, was very successful.
He is the complete opposite in many ways. Right, There
are many ways to be successful, but you have to
be true to yourself. And what I like about him is, yes,
his emotion and the way that he's open and honest
about it. But I think he's also recognized that emotion

(21:23):
is important. And I think if we were all a
little bit more open and honest, then we would be
a little bit more sensitive to certain things. And I
think it's better to be sensitive than insensitive, because who
wants to be insensitive? But I think there's a certain
level of emotional control that needs to be applied. And
I think will be the first to say that there
was some situations, particularly when he was dormant coach, when

(21:45):
it might have been best if he was able to
control his emotions. I mean, this isn't football, but Roger Federer,
I think only ever became the greatest tennis player, one
of the greatest tennis players of all time because he
was able to control his emotions. When he first started out,
he was an extremely emotional player. Those are important moments,
and it's not to say that those emotions are not

(22:05):
of any value. As you say, it's important that people
are who they are and that they're honest to themselves,
but it does need to be a certain element of
control and recognizing that, and that's also something you know,
that's part of character development. That's part of learning, it's
part of growing, and that's part of growing as a
human being. I mean, that's another question for itself. One
of the things talking to the coaches in this book,
I don't know whether enough of that is being done

(22:26):
in the professional game for coaches and for players. There's
certainly enough player development, but is their room there for
character development? I think so.

Speaker 3 (22:34):
Well, Interestingly, I was talking to somebody who was I
talking to somebody has on the podcast a couple of
weeks ago actually, where they were talking about how in
many of the of the major NFL franchises, Patriots, particularly
character development, they actually have character coaches in specific roles.
And so for me, I think that is an area

(22:57):
that I mean, I think it used to be feel
by the you know, in inverted commers, let's call it
the sports psychologists. Well, the greatest coaches are sports psychologists.
They might not have the badge or the official title
of sports psychologists, but they absolutely are because they can
tap into human motivation in a way that a sports psychologist,

(23:21):
in my opinion, unless they're really embedded within the team,
really struggle to do. And I mean there have been
examples of people who perform the role of sports psychologists.
The best example I can think of is someone like
Gilbert and Noka. So Gilbert and Noka within the All Blacks,
he wasn't necessarily there officially as a sports psychologist. I

(23:41):
kin't of remember what his title was. However, he was
almost like the glue because what he did was he
forged the connection between between the players and the coaching
staff and he was always able to tap into the
sort of what was going on within the squad and
then help the coaches to ensure that they can connect
most effectively with the group as well. So he was almost,

(24:03):
like I call him, like a coach whisperer. And it's
a unique role that isn't often used. And I think
these roles in the NFL are similar in the sense
that they're partly there for the players, but they're not
there for the players in isolation of the coaches. They're
there to act as a support for the coaches to
help the coaches to develop the players as well. Absolutely,

(24:24):
it's kind of a unique role that doesn't sort of exist,
but I can see a lot more of that kind
of role emerging within, you know, kind of sports franchises
as we go forward, and I think.

Speaker 4 (24:34):
It's important that does happen. You know, I don't think
we need more coaches because I think there are enough
coaches at the moment, certainly enough coaches who are not
being given opportunities, and that's concerning in itself. We don't
need more sports psychologists because there are plenty of qualified
sports psychologists who are needed at football clubs, who are
already in place, who are there to do the things
that they are qualified to do. Yeah, the reason, and

(24:56):
I stress that, is that what we really need is
someone who is there not to talk about the sport,
because actually the problem lies in the ego that comes
with coaches who arrive at coaching staffs and they consider
themselves to be perhaps a little bit more educated or
intelligent than the head coach, and then you have classes
and then it's difficult. You need someone to arrive at

(25:17):
the situation and say, look, I am not here to
talk about the football. That is your job. I am
here to develop the character of these individuals so that
they don't get neglected as human beings. And I think
if someone you're right to point out the NFL so
many teams, so many teams do that in character development.
They call it player development over there was sometimes which
is a bit confusing because for us, player development would
actually just be player development, but character development is something

(25:38):
that is For me, it's a shock that that isn't
really a consideration in professional football. But like you say,
I do think it's going to have to change in
the future because you can't expect the head coach to
do so many things. I mean, that was one of
the things that one of the coaches told me. He
thinks that in the future, we're going to have a
head coach for Saturdays and a head coach for Wednesdays,

(26:00):
going to have one who's going to develop the young
players and one who's going to get the results on Saturday.
Because at the moment, the list of tasks that the
head coach is expected to perform is continually growing, and
to expect one man or one woman to do that
is absolutely outrageous. Of course, they're a staff to help them.
But ultimately no one ever talks about staff. Everybody only

(26:20):
ever talks about the head coach and they are the
one who They're the ones who are always you know,
the first to go when the problem arises.

Speaker 3 (26:26):
So I definitely think that's an area that's overlooked, you know,
is the role of a head coach. So I think traditionally, certainly,
say in England, I think the idea of that, you know,
the manager so to speak, which is we would be
called a head coach in any other in any other part,
any other part of the world, but the manager is
seen as sort of you know, the all knowing oracle

(26:46):
who you know, you know, transfers go through them, and
this exactly well that those days are over. I think,
like you say that the head coach now, in my
view it has to be kind of a master delegator
and a master manager because you're having to. I mean
a lot of the work that happens in elite sport
now through UK Sport is about actually helping coaches to

(27:07):
understand managing multidisciplinary teams. Absolutely, nutrition, psychology, physiotherapy, physical development,
strength and conditioning, all those things to have to work
together to support the development of the athlete. And I
think a lot of coaches sort of go, oh, well,
that's just their job. They can fix them or they
can develop them, and then you just deliver me the

(27:27):
best athlete possible and I'll take it from there. It's
got to be much more integrated than that, because otherwise
you find that the gears grind against each other and
it doesn't quite work.

Speaker 4 (27:37):
Yeah, definitely, and you need that unison otherwise you're going
to end up with more division. And that's the last
thing you need in a club environment. In an environment
that's supposed to be tighten it is division. And if
you don't create that unity, then it's actually harder to
achieve goals because you're all pulling on the same rope
but in completely different directions.

Speaker 3 (27:59):
So one area just wanted to just pick upop I
mean firstly, I mean just to sort of circle back
to this starting point here. That was a surprise for me,
I have to say, And it's probably and it just
probably flags up stereotypes and prejudice. I mean, I spend
quite a bit of time I used to work in golf,
and I spent a bit of time working over in Germany,
and one of the things that was quite fascinated by
just some cultural differences. So for example, if you go

(28:20):
on a if you play in a standard sort of
golf day and you have the nearest the pin competition
in the UK, you know, you get a flag, you
stick it in and you write your name on it
and everything's good. But if you do the same in Germany,
there's a tape measure because they want to know not
just who won, but how far away they were in
meters and centimeters, you know, absolutely, And for me I
sort of took that as a little bit of you know,
that's interesting piece of German culture, you know. And there's

(28:43):
a famous story about, you know, Bernard Langer, who recently
won the city the Senior British Open at the ripe
old age of I think, excuse you, the fifty nine
or sixty nine and for the fourth time, no less.
And there's a famous story about him and his caddy
once asking their partners what was the yardage from this
sprinkler head and the opposing caddy said, oh, it's one

(29:03):
eight nine And apparently Langer's caddy and Langer in unison said,
is that from the front of the sprinkle ahead or
from the back. Now, Okay, so these are all stereotypical
stories about you know, kind of how exacting, you know,
Germans can be, and how precise they want to be,
and you know they're you know, engineering and all.

Speaker 4 (29:22):
That sort of stuff.

Speaker 3 (29:23):
So my assumption was that this book was going to
be really technocratic in nature. But it's not, and so
I was quite surprised by that. I just was interested
in your reflections on that yourself.

Speaker 4 (29:32):
Yeah, I mean, I've lived in Germany for quite a while,
and German people were always interesting to assess, especially from
a foreign perspective. Or are no longer really consider myself
foreign because I've been here for so long. But there
is certainly an obsession. It's hard to make wide, sort
of wide statements about society in general, but especially from

(29:53):
my experience in football. I mean, Frank talks about it.
Frank Vomot used to be the head coach of all
the coaches at the DFB. He talks about it at
the end and he says, you know, I think of
chapter two. He said, so, you know, I think we're
a bit too obsessed in Germany with this, you know,
driving forward. We need a little bit more of the
French les affair, and I think there is certainly a

(30:13):
degree of that. I certainly feel like this expectation sometimes
in Germany is is too harsh. Yeah, and I think
that's not unfair to say it's a difficult one. You know,
You've got a bear in mind that in Germany you
can study largely for free or for not very much

(30:35):
money for a long time. You can get a master's
or a PhD. A lot of young people studying until
they're early or mid thirties. So it does generate a
different kind of environment to a society in which young
people are straight into the workplace. And if people don't
want to study, there are opportunities for them to take
up a trade or a profession, so they are certainly

(30:59):
catered for.

Speaker 2 (31:00):
Well.

Speaker 4 (31:01):
I don't know whether Germans as a whole, Yeah, it's difficult.
I certainly have experience living in the country of meeting
people who, on the whole, I would say, more often
than not, are more interested in being extremely accurate. Yes,
who would live up to that stereotype of well it's

(31:21):
one hundred and eighty five point three centimeters, not just
nearly two. Yeah, stuff like that I have experienced, and
I guess in football, the reflection is that there is
sometimes an obsession with the theory and the concern is
that the practice is sometimes different. I mean, franklinmo does

(31:41):
talk about that when he was coaching nagosmen at the
Coaching Academy, when he was getting his top licensees Fusvallera,
which is, you know, the top license, and he did
talk about how nargosmen sometimes, but when he was first
starting out, would have really good ideas from the theory,
but with some time struggle to recognize that they had

(32:02):
to be applied differently in practice, because obviously you're dealing
with human beings and the numbers and the movements on
the paper are not always going to be the same,
and you have to consider factors that you will not
have been able to consider when you were considering them
in theory. So I think that there is an element
of that. Obviously, there was some criticism in recent years

(32:22):
about Germany creating this generation of laptop coaches, you know,
coaches that were only ever focused on the numbers or
the analysis, and I don't think that's necessarily fair. Based
on my experience of talking to the people who are
involved in coaching the coaches at the top level. It
certainly seems like a lot is being done to develop
the soft skills in coaches, so they understand how to

(32:43):
be in a boardroom, how to deal with an interview,
how to deal with players. Excuse me, there certainly seems
to be a lot that's being done to develop that
human aspect. The question is, of course, you know whether
that translates. I think it does, and I think that's
reflected in the fact that there are a number of
German coaches now coaching in England. You look at the

(33:04):
respect that was given to the work being done by
people like Daniel Farker or Daniel Stendel who were working
at youth level in Germany and now have first team
jobs in the UK. And not just that, but I've
done great work. Daniel Farker getting Norwich Route promoted, it's
unbelievable and he did it his way. Daniel Stender did

(33:25):
great work with Barnsley to get them promoted to the Championship.
And I think that's because youth football in Germany is
of a higher level and it's certainly recognized and it's respected,
and I don't think there's too much of a difference
between coaching and the first team and the second team
here compared to the UK. But I also think, as
I say, the recognition and respect is different. So if

(33:46):
you do three hundred games or two hundred games at
youth level here, there is a certain level that you
have an extreme amount of experience as a coach. It's
not just disregarded, Oh you've never coached the first team,
You've never you know, there is a certain level of consideration.
And I, obviously I haven't lived in the UK for
a while, I certainly don't feel that that is a
consideration that is given in the UK. Or you coach
the youth level where you've not really done it with

(34:07):
the big boys, So I think there's a certain distance.
Then there's a difference that I think is a little
bit concerning. Just in my experience of speaking to these coaches,
that was something that really stood out. And in terms of,
you know, whether Germans are anal about certain specifications or not.
I think the way in which football has developed in

(34:31):
this country in recent years, there's been a strong focus
on tactics. Yeah, that's why a lot of players now
are capable of playing in so many different formations. But
That is also the reason the players like Jaden Sancho
have come to Germany, because those are the exact players
that are missing from Germany because the downside of focusing
so much on tactics is that you remove individualism from

(34:54):
your coaching, and that is problematic. So it's not a
perfect approach. But I do think that you know, there
are siderations there for the human as well.

Speaker 3 (35:02):
I think, yeah, I mean I suppose. I mean I
was being a little bit tongue in cheek when I
was talking about culture, but I suppose I think that
where I was trying, where I was driving at was
my expectation in terms of because you know, you tell
the story through the eyes of the people that you've
spoken to, you know, so you're and you're very and
one of the things the things great by the book actually,

(35:23):
and you mentioned this before, you know, because because you
don't necessarily have a coaching background yourself, you've been very
true I think to what they what they've said and
what they've represented. And I mean, if I'd have written it,
I'd have obviously had a bias and a lens, you know,
and you've got loud and clear whereas you've you know,
you've been very true to that. But you see, what
was interesting was just know kind of you're speaking for them,

(35:44):
if you like, you're you're interpreting whatever they're saying or
reporting saying, and what was coming out to me, the
messages that were coming out were were different from the
ones that I expected. Now one things. There are a
few areas though that I think are really really interesting.
One of the areas I do want to get into
is what's happening with you mentioned youth, you know, the

(36:04):
youth development, what's happening with youth competition, which I'll come
back to because it's definitely a really interesting thing because
I think it would surprise some people as well. But
just talking about just a couple of things there. So firstly,
you mentioned and it's one of in one of the
early chapters, the you know how how the German sort
of coaching system has been set up with their top

(36:24):
coaching badge being the football era. You know, it's a
football teacher, isn't It's translation and and the way that's
structured and the level of expectation in terms of learning
and how you know, and the amount of time it
takes in purely you know, kind of learning hours if
you like eight hundred hours. And I'm thinking to myself

(36:48):
and you even make reference to the equivalence is say
in the UK in terms of the number of hours.
And that's not to decry either either. But what I'm
trying to say is is that the expectation in terms
of to achieve an elite standard or an elite standing
amongst your coaching peers, requires a genuine dedication and commitment

(37:10):
to learning and your sort of craft. You know, it's
it's a full on, you know, almost like a it's
a PhD in coaching, I would say, or at the
very least it's a master's degree in coaching. Now over
here with work that you know, I worked in have
been working in coach development coach education for quite a
long time. And under the the UK Coaching Certificate, the

(37:31):
aspiration was that, you know, the highest level would be
a Level four and that should be the equivalent of
a post graduate qualification master's level qualification. Well, my experience
certainly of some of those level fours, of them, they're
pretty good, but there was no way I would consider
them to be postgraduate level qualification. This is a different
level of expectation around commitment to ongoing learning and education

(37:53):
and the way it's structured. Actually, interestingly enough, it's probably
less structured than I assumed it would be. It's structured,
but it's got far more flex within it to enable
different coaches who are in different pathways and journeys I
suppose to be able to progress within. It was a
really really interesting insight to the thinking behind what it

(38:17):
takes and I think this definitely lends to I think
some of Germany's cultural heritage around how much they value education.
Would that be right?

Speaker 4 (38:27):
Yeah, I think that's fair enough to say the value
of education and the value of qualification is extremely high
in this country. I think a lot of people I
know have a minimum of a master's and that is
already a board that, you know, a standard that is
incredibly intimidating in some respects. But you know, there are

(38:49):
number of factors that need to be considered. A lot
of people in the UK don't have a master's because
they can't afford it. That's also something that's to be considered.
That's the advantage of having three higher education in this country.
But yes, there is a desire to be extremely well qualified,
and that is something that is then reflected in football
in Germany as well, and I asked Frank about that,
and I said, you know, right about this in the book,
I said, eight hundred hours. This is a phenomenal amount

(39:11):
of time to be spending, you know, compared to other countries.
He said, Look, you a for sets the minimum, you know,
and some countries can only reach that minimum based on
financi or facilities. And that's fine, you know, and that's
different for every country. I said, but why do you
guys said it so high? I said, Hey, we're Germany.
If we're going to do something, we do it right. Yeah,
And that is absolutely the epitome of the point he wants.

(39:31):
And they want to create a coach who has every
single opportunity explored and who comes out of the experience
fully qualified to be able to tackle as much as
they can, because they also recognize that it's not possible
for them to know everything to tackle everything that they
can in a professional football setting at the moment that
they get the chance to coach a first team or

(39:53):
even coaching the youth team. I mean, one of the
things that really blew my mind was that they practice
interview scenarios and they practice how to handle a team
in certain situations. I mean, one of the coaches that
went through this course ended up doing well in an
interview situation in real life because he had prepped and
they had done the role play of sitting down and

(40:14):
interviewing for the job, and you have to practice and
understand the ethos and the mantra of the club that
you were applying for and convince them that you are
the right coach to carry that club forward based on
their philosophy. Now, that was something that really interested me.
That means that that is being practiced. That's a brilliant
skill to practice, because if you think about that, that's
something that's not linear in terms of education. It's not

(40:36):
just let's learn how to do for fourth two. That's
learning how to understand how to be in an interview
situation and how to reflect the club's philosophies. Or there
was another situation where for example, okay, it's what February, lads,
Let's pretend that you're going to take over Shawka. Now,
how would you finish out the season? What changes would
you make? You know, you're you're putting coaches in realistic situations,

(40:59):
even if they're old play situations for their potential careers
when it comes around, so they are in many ways
prepared for situations that comes around that come around in
the future. Obviously, a lot of the theory is something
that you know, you can only know whether it works
when you put it into practice on the training field.
And I'm sure most coaches will say, yeah, you can
read all the books you want, you can watch all
the film that you want, but it doesn't really you know,

(41:20):
you don't really get a feel for it until you're
actually out on the on the field with the players themselves,
and you can get a grip with the training session itself.
But yeah, the level of detail I think is a
reflection of the way in which work is done. It's
done fully, it's done properly, it's done to the absolute
highest level. And there's certainly there are obvious positives to that.

(41:44):
But then negative is as Frank said, that sometimes that
can create a slightly damaging culture of well, we've got
to be the best, We've got to do more. You've
got to do more, you've got to do more. And
you know, one of the issues is that if you
don't create room for the human to make mistakes and
to learn and to grow. Then you know that can
be troubling. I think what Frank was saying on the

(42:06):
course that they do well with is that there's room
for them to make mistakes, but they have to recognize
every decision that they make has a positive and negative impact.
And what Frank was really good at telling me was
that he was saying, I don't walk in there and
say this is wrong and this is right. I give
you the option and you and if you say to me, oh,

(42:27):
should how did I handle that situation? Well, you know,
you kind of just spoke to one player when you
had everyone listening. Or should I bring the group together? Well,
if you bring the group together, then you'll break up
the training session and you'll lose the rhythm. So you
give them both sides and they have to decide for themselves,
which I think is a much better way of learning
than just saying, well, do this or do that? You know,
because you ultimately put the onus on the coach. So

(42:50):
I mean, the level of detail it didn't necessarily surprise
me because, as I say, I've been fortunate enough to
live here for a while, and that's certainly something that
I've seen reflected in my job in the way that
people approach many professions. But it is a testament to
the level of of graft as you said, you know
that they put into the job.

Speaker 3 (43:10):
And it really that that was also a real interest
to me was how much Yes, obviously there's a there's
a there's a significant theoretical component, but there's also the
application side of this as well, and a big part
of it is the actual you know, kind of almost
like you know, semi real or real scenarios where that

(43:31):
you know, the coaches are kind of given almost like
real time feedback based on how they've acted in certain ways.
And again this is something that you know, kind of
working on here really is I think a lot of
coach education across different sports has been very much focused
on you know, kind of you learn the knowledge you know,

(43:52):
but you don't necessarily learn the application. And so for me,
I think the application bit is as important, if not
more more important really than the no good knowing stuff
if you can't actually apply it.

Speaker 4 (44:03):
Uh.

Speaker 3 (44:04):
And so that almost that procedural knowledge element really being
a big part of the way this works, and that
I mean that that's just almost like invaluable and I
feel like like this novice coaches need more of that
because they're the ones at the coal face with the
kids making all the mistakes, with all the parents and
all the difference. It feels to me like saving it
for these elite, this elite few is fine. But I mean,

(44:27):
I think one of the and it's one of the
things I think the FAG done brilliantly on actually in fairness,
is they've actually put this army of mentors out there
working at the grass roots, helping coaches with real life
problems and it's unheard of, unseen difficult work evenings, weekends, Sundays,
all that sort of stuff. But for me, I think
that's that's really going to bear through in future years,
hopefully in from the perspective of the quality of coaching,

(44:48):
but also in in you know, kind of the experiences
that the kids have.

Speaker 4 (44:51):
And that's one of the things that one of the
coaches told me that they thought was really impressive that
England had done. But you know, one of the reasons
that England are able to do that is the money,
and you know, Germany and not able to roll out
such an internationally spread mentoring system or not sorry, internationally
on a national scale. They can't spread that out because
the money isn't there to do that. And I think

(45:13):
that's a fortuitous situation that England finds themselves in, and
I'm glad that they're putting that money in the right
situations to provide that mentorship, because, as you say, the
most important thing is making sure that the coaches are
being nurtured and helped on the job. Rather than just
go here where you're in the classroom and now you
can go out and you know, practice and good luck
with it. You know, you also need to be guided

(45:33):
and helped through the situation when you're practicing it for real.
I think Germany does a good job of doing the
best that they can with that situation, but obviously there's
always run for improvement in those areas.

Speaker 3 (45:44):
Yeah, And I think interestingly, I totally agree. I think
if I was advising the German football authorities on some
of their coach development systems, and I'd apply and I'd
apply this to kind of any governing body. Really is
I think one of the also one of the things
that's been missing from kind of coach development is that

(46:06):
I think coaches learn to be coaches, but they don't
learn to support other coaches. So for me, you know,
when I became, say a level three coach, there's like
a responsibility within the club that you're going to guide
and nurture others. But the problem is that's actually really
quite difficult. It's far more difficult than coaching the kids,
it really is. And so actually I think that should
be built into learning as you become a more senior coach,

(46:28):
that you're learning to support all the coaches and this
almost developing a culture of you know, kind of calling
up or helping the people who are starting through their
journey is a culture that we probably need to bring
into sport. It certainly something we're trying to do over
here in England.

Speaker 4 (46:41):
Yeah, I mean it's and it's something that is probably
the greatest challenge for coaches moving forward, because managing your staff,
as you say, is actually probably more taxing because all
the players in your team are looking up to you
and they know that you ultimately hold the key to
their future, so that they're already fairly attentive to you,
and they're already focused on what you want to do

(47:02):
and they want to play. But the staff, these people
are already qualified in their positions and of course they
know that they need to work with you, but they're
not as dependent on you as the players in many respects,
so handling them is a completely different task in itself.
And you know, one of the reasons that I think
Ralph Hasenhuld is such a good coach, and I do

(47:23):
talk about this in the book, is that Helmer Gross,
who is one of the coaches that I was able
to speak to when he was at Leipsis who was
basically Ralph Rannick's number one advisor. He told me that
one of the reasons that Hasenhuter was so successful at
Leipsism and why I think he's doing such a good
job at Southampton is that he is brilliant at managing
a staff. He is really good at bringing that team

(47:43):
together and recognizing, as you say, that actually managing a
group of adults is probably more taxing and difficult than
it is managing a group of young players. And that
is partly I believe, based on the experience I've had
from the people I've spoken to, Because egos play a
far bigger role in a coaching staff sometimes than they
do in a playing squad, and you have to be

(48:06):
careful as a head coach to make sure that the
focus is on the football, you know, it's not about
the coach doing well for himself or the coaches coming
out and saying, yeah, we had a terrible season, but
you know what, I did a good job, you know.
And that's a problematic environment if you were let that fester,
or you let that create, or you end up with

(48:29):
those people, you know, and as a head coach, you
need to be strong enough to create that kind of
environment that's positive going forward. But it is a big challenge.
And that's why I said earlier that I think in
the future you're going to have the size of staff
is only going to grow, in my opinion, because I
think the needs of players and of coaches themselves will
only continue to grow and you need more people around

(48:49):
to provide levels of support, and that's going to make
that job all the more challenging. You know, You've got
to really be good at micromanaging people.

Speaker 3 (48:57):
I'm glad that you brought up Southampton actually, because I
was really fortunate to be invited to do some work
with the Southampton Academy. It's a really extensive network of
coaches and I mean, one of the things that really
impressed me was. I mean, that is a dedicated group
of individuals who are really committed to, you know, kind

(49:20):
of improving. And I mean Southampton, I suppose perhaps is
probably better known for its production of players perhaps than
it is for its you know, kind of exploits on
the field, so to speak. And when I was there,
we we spent some time in the in the kind
of what you call about the academy canteen. I mean,
calling it a canteen probably is not quite the right

(49:41):
way to describe it, because it's better than better than
most restaurants I've been in. But on the wall was
all of the names of kind of what you might
call Southampton graduates from their academy. Some had gone on
to other clubs et cetera, et cetera, and some, you know,
some stellar names. And I said to this group, because

(50:01):
we were talking about all different things, and I said
to them, that's your trophy cabinet right there. And what
was interesting was I think they didn't perhaps look at
it that way, because you know, I said, you guys,
this is it, you know, this is look at that.
I mean, I'm not sure there's many other academies out
there who can could probably do that you know, this
is these are the players that's been produced by this academy,

(50:21):
who will have all gone on to have professional contracts
or whatever it might be. And you know, so in
terms of the way they measure themselves, I mean, and
it was at a time just before in fact, I think, yeah,
so when I went in there, I think asset hul
has just been appointed, maybe a week before. Yeah, so

(50:41):
there was a changing of the guards, so to speak,
and clearly the academy itself was I think it felt
to me anyway, that there'd been a period of them
really feeling quite undervalued and being just somewhere else. I mean,
to the point where they couldn't walk in certain areas,
you know, they couldn't walk through certain areas where either
players or coaches might be. They had to go the

(51:02):
academy staff had to go a different route to Yeah,
I know, very odd. It felt really strange anyway, but
I mean, and yeah, I could sort of tell nobody
was saying anything, but I could sort of tell it
wasn't particularly popular. I'm pretty certain that won't be the case.
But I heard their academy manager say it's almost one
of the first things that Ralph said to the group,
and he said he wants to be called Ralph first

(51:23):
and foremost. Ralph said to the group, he says, we've
got we My focus is on you guys, right, because
you are the future at this club and bringing the
young players through is a key priority of mine now.
And we've seen it. We've seen young players starting to
come into the team and all of a sudden, Southampton's
performances are improved.

Speaker 4 (51:42):
Now.

Speaker 3 (51:42):
The fantastic thing about this for me, and I think
Southampton lost their lost sight of this. In my view,
they were one of the few clubs in the Premiership
who had a particular playing philosophy and a particular philosophy
about player development, and they hired head coaches aligned to
that philosophy. I think they lost sight of that in
in an attempt to kind of in the league. Yeah,

(52:03):
exactly right, and so they and I think they've come
back to that with the appointment of Ralph, who I'm
now going to just call Ralphie because he I think
epitomizes some of that philosophy, that idea about player development.
And I was really pleased to read that in the
book actually, because I think a lot of people maybe
wouldn't see that, but he genuinely has what I call
almost that kind of that that fairy dust if you like,

(52:25):
he connects with people. He'd immediately made an impression on
this academy. You could visit, you could I could almost
physically feel the difference in this group. They felt enthused, motivated,
excited by their roles again, opportunities to create and innovate.
Was really really interesting.

Speaker 4 (52:39):
Yeah, I mean I was really happy when as got
the opportunity because I always thought that he was a
coach that was destined for more. I mean, when he
was at Leipsis there was there were even rumors that
he was going to go to buy and obviously, you know,
he used to play for the second team there, and
I thought he might be the right kind of guy
to deal with that because he was so focused on

(53:00):
the individual. But I'm actually glad he ended up where
he ended up because it's an opportunity for him to
really get back to focusing on the coach coaching side
of the job. And I think at bigger clubs like
Leipsterci're Buying, there's a lot of noise and a lot
of expectation around being a head coach. Or being a
manager that you don't get when you coach a team
like Southampton. And I mean that with no disrespect obviously,

(53:21):
but you know, it's just a different type of coaching.
I'm not surprised that, you know, you felt that that
was different. I feel like the focus on youth football
and the development of players coming through academies in Germany
is obvious. It's always been obvious, and I think that's
been the case since they made that decision after the
horrendous two thousand European Championships, where they decided to make,

(53:47):
you know, basically nationwide changes to their academy structure and
forced Spunezigger teams to have academies, and it created a
generation that ultimately ended in the twenty fourteen World Cup victory.
And that was the plan, and it was part of
a long term vision and development and young players were
brought through. And obviously now it's very interesting to see
how Germany is going to move forward and start all

(54:07):
over again basically, but if you do that, then you
also generate a culture or a generation of coaches who
have coached at that academy level and therefore probably coached
the players that end up playing in the first team
with the same coaches later on further down the line,
and therefore the expectations are the same. Yeah, what you
end up and I called this generation generation why, because

(54:28):
they end up always asking you why you're doing certain
exercises rather than just doing them for the sake of
doing them. And what you've got at the moment in Germany,
at least in my experience, is that you've got a
generation of players who are not happy just doing exercises.
They need to understand the value of them, they need
to understand why they're doing them. And I'm sure that
that's the same or it's increasingly the same in England

(54:49):
that certainly get the feelings in the way that god
Southgate was talking during the World Cup last year about
the way that English players had certainly started to be
more vocal and more interested in in training exercises and
the purpose of drills. You know, that generates a much
healthier environment because if you generate that, then you put
the onus on the player and it's not just I'm

(55:10):
the coach, I tell you what to do. It's an
environment where you can both have a conversation in the
discussion and the player itself themselves might end up saying,
you know what, coach, I think we might if we
change this here and we and we double up at
the front post. I think that might be more effective.
And then the coach is in a position, because it's
cultivated that relationship to say, ah, that's a good idea,
you know, and that's a healthier environment to be in.

(55:31):
Then I think we should do this. And because I'm
the coach, I'm going to say so. One of the
most interesting things I got told on that reflection was
when I was talking to the head of video analysis
was then the assistant manager at labor Cuz who's now
at Leipsig, and he was saying, look, when I explained
to players and I need you to make this run
on this exercise, I need you to run to the

(55:52):
front post from a corner. You know. Players immediate response,
if there are this generation, we well, well, why tell
me why? And if you if you know that he's
going to say that, then you don't even need to
do that or have that part of the conversation. You
can say, look, run to the front post, because you're
going to drag a man out of space and you're
going to leave a whole space in the six yard
area where we're more likely to score because the man

(56:13):
behind you, who's your teammate, is going to be free
for a header, and that's why I want you to
make the run. Therefore, he doesn't even need to ask
you why, because you've already explained it to him. And
if he asks you why, then you know that that's
the reason you need to give him. But if you
generate a generation and that's what Germany has done, or
at least up until twenty fourteen, twenty sixteen, of players
who were curious and wanted to know and needed explanation,

(56:36):
and then obviously changes coaching and changes the environment, and
I think it's much more as much healthier because it's
much more give and take rather than just give give give.

Speaker 3 (56:44):
Well, also for me, I mean, one of the most
important things about that as well is I mean I
think it by the way I mean, I think I
think you're absolutely right about generation why, and people talk
about generation why quite a bit. However, I think it's
always been the case in the sense that if you
want people to be, you know, kind of motivated by
something and genuinely sort of committed to something, this this

(57:06):
idea that they're just going to do it because you've
told them to and they're just then, you know, compliant
to an instruction is I think based on a very
old school notion of what coaching was, which was based
on a kind of military conception around this ana of
almost automaticity and drilling. Now that was designed back in
the day because the theory was, you know, you want

(57:28):
you want soldiers who are going to respond to instructions
instantaneously so that so that they can carry out orders,
et cetera, et cetera. But that was based on the
idea of you know, we had very very little time
for you know, we didn't really have a professional military.
Now in the professional military, they've even got done away
with that because they've recognized that you don't want a
group of soldiers who only respond to orders, because what

(57:49):
happens if the people give in the orders. A soldiers
still have to make decisions under under fire, you know,
in in in life and death situations, and they can
save each other by doing so. So I think I
think a lot of people have now begun to realize,
but I think it's been slow in some sports for sure,
that this idea of do this because I said, really,

(58:09):
isn't isn't very good. Secondly, and I think this is
an important point around what you were saying about Garath
South Kate as well, is you absolutely want players to
be looking at the game in that way because you've
got active participants who are actually actively solving problems right
there in the moment. They have a perspective that you
probably can't, so they'll add value to whatever it is
that you you you know, they'll see it in a

(58:30):
different way. But also it then means in a game
they might do something similar because they see something happening
minutes a minute. Very rarely does a even a set piece,
because it get delivered exactly how it should be delivered.
And so therefore you want people to be able to
make a small adaptation because oh this is a better
option right here, right now, and you get those little
moments where you know, something happens that no one quite expected,

(58:53):
but it ends up with a really positive result.

Speaker 4 (58:56):
Yeah. Yeah, And you're right to point out that perspective
as you needque as a player, because you can't have
that as a coach. And one of the dangers of
course that former players who end up becoming coaches then
think that they already know how that works, and then
the way that they partake in giving advice or you know,
giving coaching tips is dangerous because they then only really

(59:18):
regurgitate what they learned as a player, and that's not
necessarily the most effective way to coach, excuse me. And
you know, if you do that, then you negate the
opportunity or you remove the opportunity to really understand a
different perspective, and the player's perspective there is very very unique.
I would say that, yes, I agree that you know,

(59:40):
this is probably the generation why it's probably been around
longer than we consider it and just because it's got
a label now, I think it's different. But I think
a key moment for Germany was certainly the turn of
the millennium, and I think a lot of what was
going into German football before was the old fashioned values
that ironically that England spent a lot time building their

(01:00:01):
national team off. Well, if you fight hard enough and
you really want it and you're passionate, will get through,
you know. And I think those values, I think now
people realize that every single changing room in the world
has those values hanging on the wall and you differentiate
yourself from that. You have to do far more than say,
come on, lads, show me that you really want it.

(01:00:21):
Where's the passion. You know, there's got to be a
lot more in your game plan and your halftime team
talk than that, and recognizing that, I think is one
of the reasons that the changes were put in place
at the start of the new millennium. And then you know,
ultimately you end up with this generation who are more curious. Obviously,
I think since humans have been around, you're more likely
to get them to do something if they understand the

(01:00:43):
reasons why they're doing it in the first place. I
think in football there was certainly that environment, as you said,
of you know, I'm the commander, and if I tell
you what to do, then you will do it, you know,
a bit like a head master, old school headmaster. You
know this is the way and these are the rules.
And I think think the way that that's changed and
those rules have been not bent, but they've become more

(01:01:05):
malleable is a real positive for football, because you know,
you need different perspectives, you need people to be open,
you need fewer egos, and you know, if you have
all of those things you're more likely to be able
to bring a team together and realize something and create
something special.

Speaker 3 (01:01:22):
Now that that takes me onto something nicely actually that
I really wanted to touch on as well, which is
you've got two chapters in the book with the same
title air Finder.

Speaker 4 (01:01:30):
Is that right correct?

Speaker 3 (01:01:32):
Our innovator is is the translation?

Speaker 4 (01:01:34):
Now?

Speaker 3 (01:01:34):
One of the one of the areas talk about you
took quite a lot about sort of analysis, but it's
it's coming at analysis from a different perspective, which is
the use of analysis as a means by which to
evaluate players, but evaluating players in a way that I
haven't hadn't heard of before, which was around the idea
of and it speaks to what we've just been talking
about about kind of players who are active problem solvers,

(01:01:55):
and it speaks to how it was in there's the
use of this analysis now to look at how players
are able to utilize space effectively and get into positions
that would be able to create attacking opportunities. I can't
quite remember how you describe it, but that just can
you just talk me through that one a little bit

(01:02:17):
as well, because that's really interesting.

Speaker 4 (01:02:19):
Yeah, I mean, the best example of that is someone
like navigator. I mean, that's the reason that Livesis signed
him because they recognized that he was able to move
and get into spaces that other people couldn't. And that's
the reason that they were so amazed that nobody in
France had picked him up, because when they looked at
the film, they were sort of confused that nobody had
turned around and said, well, hold on, guys, this guy

(01:02:39):
is able to drive forward and get into space that
no one else is. Why is no one else in
France picking up on this midfielder? And yeah, I mean
when you look at the value, obviously you come back
to analysis and you know there's a difference between too
many numbers and getting bogged down in the analysis of
a player and the technical side of things. But have

(01:03:00):
a you know, they're pretty specific, and you know, in
these two chapters and A Finder basically focused on Ralph
Frannick in the first one, who really, for for all
of the criticisms that are out there about him, he
was a very important coach in the in the development
and the culture of German coaching and the way that
it's moved forward. And in the second one, you know,
we talk about el mcgross who's the coach, who's basically

(01:03:23):
his number two and who's best advised him. And what
you're what you're able to see hopefully in the two
chapters together is the way in which analysis is evolving
in Germany. I mean, Haffenaim are another club that have
great analysis for supported by SAP. They have great technical

(01:03:45):
utilities there and facilities that are able to enhance their
their assessment. Obviously, finance makes it plays a big role,
and you know there are some controversial reasons behind Lepstis
and Hoff and i Am having the abilities and the
opportunities that they have. But if you look at players
who are able to create and get into space, the

(01:04:10):
way that you play football is really important in your
analysis of players. So Lipstish played very high pressing, very
very intense football. And the reason that Lipstis were interested
in looking at players like Forsburg or like Joseph Poulsen
or Navigator is because they recognized not only that they
were good at getting into space, but another thing that
they analyze is their ability to sprint or their ability

(01:04:33):
to surge forward. And they were assessing really minute sections.
I mean with Forsburg when they were looking him at
Malmo they were like, Wow, he's got some work to
do here, and if we could get him to do
this and this and this. So they sort of see
certain elements of players that they feel they can work on,
and then if there's enough they're based on the philosophy
that the club is pursuing, then they'll obviously do their

(01:04:55):
best to recruit them. But the thing that got me
the most wasn't necessarily just the the view of space,
but it was their ability and their potential. I saw
bro Freennick speak at one of the coaching conferences that
I was at, and his formula was, if you took
natural born talent and if you looked at them on

(01:05:16):
a scale of one to ten. For example, if you
took natural born talent and you added it to acquired skill,
so the skill that you developed as a player, and
you timed it by your mentality, that would give you competence,
that would give you your overall ability as a player. And
what he was saying was, it makes more sense for
me to sign someone like Yusuf Parson than it does

(01:05:38):
to sign someone who's already perhaps a more finished product.
Because he used this formula when he assessed him. He said, look,
when we bought Parson, he was a five out of
ten for natural born talent. He was a six for
acquired skill, so again, you know, pretty average, but his
mentality was a ten. He was willing to develop, he

(01:05:58):
was so involved in the and that means his confidence
is one hundred and ten. Now you do the maths
on this and you change it around, and your mentality
is a four. Even if your ability and your acquired
skill is higher, it's not going to give you as
much end product. Now, of course, you know, you have
to take this with a pinch of salt. Ralph Frannick
is obviously going to say that his players and the
players that he's recruited are great and he's done a

(01:06:20):
great job and their mentality is always wonderful. But I
think that the logic of this formula is very applicable
for German clubs and just for clubs generally who are
looking to match their philosophies with their recruitment. You know,
and you have to have extremely specific people in place

(01:06:41):
to come up with plans of analysis. Is this player
good at scoring goals? Yes? But is it the right
type of goal for us? How do we play football?
We cross the ball a lot. He's good in the air,
his second touch is good, he's good in the six
yard books. Let's look at these. Let's analyze this situation.
Is he determined? Does he apply that? Does? The other
mentality is the injury prone? Yep? And I'm sure that

(01:07:04):
football clubs do this. But the very specific nature of
the insight that I was able to see about the
way that lives certainly to approach some of their transfers,
was very intriguing because it's an assessment not just of
their ability, but their future, their potential, and their human
traits in terms of you know, determination and character. And

(01:07:24):
I thought that was very telling.

Speaker 3 (01:07:26):
Yeah, I mean, I do you know what I was
going to ask you about that, because that really, I mean,
that's one of my folded down pages and with notes
on it.

Speaker 4 (01:07:35):
So that.

Speaker 3 (01:07:38):
Equation is really interesting. I mean, the reason the talent
equation is called the talent equation is because I have
a very similar equation of thinking about this idea of
talent and talent development, which is I see talent as
I mean, interestingly, the equation works slightly differently, but so
I see talent as being ability, whether that's natural ability

(01:08:01):
or acquired ability. And that's very different from different people.
But it's ability multiplied by what I call the internal factors.
But that's what you could call that mentality, and that's
in brackets, and then that's in urns multiplied by the
environments that they're either developed within or the environments that
they have had experiences within, and all the other bits

(01:08:21):
and pieces like parents and school and club and all
those sorts of areas and all those things need to
be aligned, and all that's done over time. So it
spoke to that quite a bit, and what I was
really interested in was the way it put a huge
waiting on the mentality. Interestingly, I've always said the same thing.
So I've always said, right, generally speaking, if you get
a young product who's got ability and the mentality, well

(01:08:45):
that's like the golden egg right over them up straight away.
The problem is it's rarely that the two things come
together imbalanced. And in general, we generally when we're looking
in evaluating talent, we look at the ability bits because
a bit that's easy to see. Really look at the
mentality side. And yet he's flipped it and he said

(01:09:05):
the mentality bit's more important. And I would agree with
that because it's far harder, I think, to take someone
with ability and to then really work on their mentality.
It's not impossible, not at all. And if you're a really,
really skilled operator, you can do that. However, if you
had I've had a choice between two players, and one
had loads of ability and bit bit weaker on the mentality,

(01:09:28):
but one had mega mentality and a bit weaker on
the on the ability for the mentality one because with
the right mentality you can kind of help somebody nurture
and develop their own abilities, and then the sort of
sky is the limit and and so for me, that
sort of it really it sort of spoke to that
way of thinking. I think, yeah, it's so true, and
I think a lot of players and the same is
true of coaches, and the same is true of coaches.

(01:09:49):
If you have the mentality that you can tackle the
you know, you can not anything, but you know you're
strong enough and you've got those values in place, that's
going to stand you and better said, to succeed than
if you suddenly have all of the practice and all
of the theory and all of the knowledge in your mind,
you know, and mentality, especially now determination the ability to
endure I think you can.

Speaker 4 (01:10:10):
See it across all sports. You know, people who make
it to the NFL, the things that the amount of
tests and hurdles that many of those athletes have had
to overcome to even get to a team is phenomenal,
you know, and then the number of player players who
play in America that you have to come all the

(01:10:31):
way down through all of those hoops to be able
to have a chance if you have the mentality. You
can bet your bottom dollar that most players who make
it in that league have an incredible mentality because of
all the adversity that they probably had to come through
to make it. And I think most coaches would say
they would rather have eleven players who have an incredible mentality.
I mean to Desco, who is unfortunately no longer Shafa

(01:10:51):
as coach, but Dominica Deesco does talk about that, and
I quote him in the book, and he would rather
have a team full of players who are strong mentally
than eleven super talented players because he knows and as
you rightly point out, it's perhaps easier to develop a
group of players who are super mentally strong and determined

(01:11:13):
than it is to develop a group of really talented
players who you know, couldn't be too bothered about turning
up on time to training.

Speaker 3 (01:11:21):
It's interesting, isn't it. How what I've found that's really
interesting and something that's been really interesting to me in
working in sort of in an around elite sport, was
how overlooked that is because I think the I mean
I call them fool's gold. So those like you know,
hyper able individuals, but you know clearly very fragile in

(01:11:43):
terms of and mentality, works on a lots of different
ways as well. I mean, you know a couple of
researchers over here have done some lots and lots of
work around, as they call it, the psychological characteristics of
development Excellent developing excellence on your McNamara are based over
in at a University of Central Lancashire, and there's been
various things written about this. You can talk about grit,
you can talk about growth, mindset, all these sorts of things.

(01:12:05):
They manifest themselves in lots of different ways. Not only
is it performance, but it's also the it's sort of
the off the pitch side. It's how you choose to
live your life, how the choices you make day to day.
You know, the decisions you make in terms of how
you decide to fuel your body, how you decide to rest,
how you decide to commit. And it's that that you know,
that the act of being a professional athlete. But what's

(01:12:25):
really interesting to me is how how overlooked that is
in professional sports and lots of different professional sports. A
good friend of mine is a performance coach, so you know,
he he covers aspects about psychology, but he talks about
all sorts of aspects that you could you could call
him a life coach if you like a lot of
professional sportsmen, particularly quite a few professional footballers. And he's

(01:12:48):
worked with Joe Hart in the past, and Joe Hart,
you know, this is not not giving away any secrets
Joe Hart's been in public with. He says, the football
is the easy bit. It's the others.

Speaker 4 (01:12:58):
It's all the.

Speaker 3 (01:12:58):
Other stuff that you know, yeah, have to be It's
the training, it's the dealing with the coaches. It's getting
the most out of the coaches. And the simple story,
you know is often you know, the player comes in,
the coach comes in and they don't quite gel, and
then a performance of the player goes down and it's
about the player having It's as much about the player
having the tools to be able to engage the coach
as it is about the coach having the tools to

(01:13:20):
be able to engage the player. Now, ideally it needs
to work both ways, because really a coach is there
to get performance out of the athlete. But at the
same time, I think it's for the athlete to also
understand that they need to think about the way they
can best engage and if they don't engage with that individual, then,
needless to say, that's going to create a tension that
you know. So it's quite an interesting insight as to

(01:13:43):
how that mentality piece is so often overlooked.

Speaker 4 (01:13:46):
Yeah, and I find it hard to believe as well
that you know, somehow we don't consider determination or the
basically the way that that individual's live their life as
a human being. We don't consider that to be a
as much value of oh, well, they were at an
academy for this long and you know, actually, I think
we need to put a little bit more weight and
take a little bit more time to recognize what has

(01:14:08):
happened in this person's life and how have they got
to this point, particularly from a player's perspective, you know,
And I think that's something that in the professional game
really does need to be addressed because you're talking about
players who, potentially, by the time that they make their
first team debut, maybe their nineteen twenty, they've been in
academies for ten years, maybe eight years. I mean, that

(01:14:29):
is a brutal life and it's really difficult, and you've
got to have someone in place who during, you know,
preferably during the entire process, helps them regain some level
of normality in their growing up as an adult basically
or when they reach that stage that is able to

(01:14:49):
keep their feet on the ground, because, as you say,
the football is the part that they enjoy the most,
is probably the bit that comes easy. But everything else
they need someone there to help them. And you know,
that doesn't necessarily need to be an agent, doesn't necessarily
need to be someone who has already got an interest
or a different agenda. It needs to be someone who
is genuinely interested in helping the individual be the best

(01:15:12):
version of themselves. And that I think is something that
football clubs could do, could do better with, but that
is something that they will have to make a change
in the future.

Speaker 3 (01:15:23):
So I'm mindful as much as I'd love to keep
keep driven into that conversation because I personal interest. I
do want to just segue back to something I mentioned earlier,
which was about the changes that are being made around
youth football in Germany and kind of really interesting how
again this is and I think this is really quite

(01:15:44):
quite exciting and also quite interesting, how driven by research,
driven by you know kind of you know, a university,
you know, making studies of you know, the experiences, et cetera,
et cetera, and how that's now brought about some fairly
wide ranging changes which have been almost totally accepted by

(01:16:06):
the German football authorities. As I understand it, it was
a fairly recent announcement I saw you put on Twitter.

Speaker 4 (01:16:12):
Yeah, I mean I wrote about it last month, and
recently the DFB have realized and accepted that the way
that they've been coaching at youth level has not really
been not really been ideal, and it's the reason that
a lot of controversy was surrounding the fact that Leroy
signed it was admitted from the World Cup squad. I
personally don't have a problem with him being admitted because
Julian Brown was taken in his place, and I think
Julian Brandt offers a lot of positives, but there's a

(01:16:35):
certain level of Premier League bias in the way that
Signay's omission was covered. Obviously, with Prayers playing in the
Premier League, they're obviously the greatest thing, you know, slow spread,
so it's always difficult. But I think Signa's a mission
was also slightly intriguing because he is such an individual
player who is capable of doing something that not many

(01:16:56):
players in Germany who are German are capable of doing,
and that is beating players in one on one situations
and having that something special basically, you know, doing something
special in the special situation. And that's why I think
moving forward he will ironically be probably the most important
player in the Germany team along with say Snabry, because
there are two examples of players who are really capable

(01:17:17):
of doing something special in a one on one situation.
And the reason that that's important comes all the way
down to youth level. And I was at coaching conference
where I heard Professor matiirs Lachman talk about this, and
it's basically his idea that he has continued from Horst
to Vine, who was the original creator of this years
and years ago. And it's this idea called Fanino, which

(01:17:40):
is basically to radically change the way that young people
at a youth level I would say sort of under
seven eight nines. The specifics are in the book, but
also online and in the article that I recently posted
about the updates. Where you stop people stop kids playing
full size games, basically you stop them playing You basically

(01:18:01):
see them play in two teams of three where they
try and attack and defend two goals. The goals are
about two meters by one meter on a much smaller pitch,
so theoretically you could put eight of these pitches on
one full sized pitch. The reason for doing this is
quite clear and it sort of blew my mind when
I first heard him talk about it at the moment,

(01:18:24):
if you think about the way that young football is
being structured, and I think this also applies to England,
because I'm quite concerned about the way that young kids
are being taken into academies in England with this professionalization
from such a young age. I'm really struggling with that
because you sell the wrong idea to kids. You know,
these kids are so desperate to be professional footballers, and
at the age of eight you're already giving them the

(01:18:45):
full tracksuit and the team photo, and you're making them
feel like they're already on ten grand a week and
that they're you know, raheem sterling and the making. And
that's very problematic because they're selling the false stream because
not every single one of those kids can be a
professional footballer. It's just the way that it's going to be.
And actually, you remove the fun out of the experience
of the child. And if we're taking fun away from children,
there's an extremely dangerous road to go down. So what

(01:19:08):
you should do, and I think this is what My
Tears is putting forward in such a brilliant way, is
return the fun. So if you take away the current
format of the game, which really is a problematic because
the pitches are too big and the goals are too big,
and the games are too long, and as a player,
you rarely touch the ball and you're playing in positions
that you're not really familiar with. And I'm sure anyone

(01:19:29):
who's played football can remember when they were seven or eight,
they spend a lot of time running after the ball.
I don't know how many touches you really had. You
probably didn't score that many goals. Unless you're playing up front,
it's not a particularly enjoyable experience. But what Fanimio does,
and it's because it's three on three and there are
four goals. You're trying to defend two, and you're trying
to score into and you can only score outside a
certain area. You get way more touches. Everybody gets an

(01:19:53):
opportunity to be far more involved in the game. There
are three balls waiting for you on the sideline, so
once a goal is scored, you just restart from there
and if there's you know, you don't play in league competitions,
so that there's no coach bias here. There's no need
for the coach to do well. So you can say, yeah,
I got my under nines promoted, and you know, look
how brilliant I am. The focus is on the kids,

(01:20:13):
and the kids are able to have fun. You take
the coaching side out of it in terms of their ego,
and you put the coaching side in by giving these
kids the time to have more touches. They get more
involved in the game. They have a much better understanding
of space because the pitch is smaller. They don't you
don't need to worry about you know, defending so much,
it's more about movement and understanding how people move around you.

(01:20:34):
There's always a sub and whenever you score, I think
one of your players comes off. And so there's a
continuous rotation, which means that there are not players who
are literally coming on a Saturday and sitting and spending
forty five minutes on a bench, which would be the
case in a normal game. And what you do, and
you know, there are lots of more details, and I
don't want to spend too many times too much time
talking about them because you need to get bogged down

(01:20:55):
in them. But basically, what you do is you just
create far more fun and pivotally. You give the children
the opportunity to do what every child wants to do
at that age, and that is score goals. And really,
if we can all remember how young we were and
how much we love the sport back then before it
became more serious. If you do that on a subliminal level,
you are already improving their technical ability and you are

(01:21:18):
come full circling the conversation, creating more leroy sanes because
you are creating players who are much more confident in
one on one situations. Because you forced them to be
in a format that is predominantly focused on fun. So
what materials Docoment has put forward is and it's great
to see that the DFB is rolling out the next
stage of their pilot and they pretty much accepted most
of his suggestions. Is that this is going to be

(01:21:40):
start to be tested on a county basis now, particularly
in buying in Bavaria where they've been doing it for
a while. And really, if you he said something really
important and I thought this was sort of really telling.
Is the problem is that, you know, you need to
stop saying, oh, well, we're all world champions. You know,

(01:22:02):
we've won the World Cup. Now it's not really about
whether Germany will win the World Cup, because if that's
your focus, then that's the problem. It's about how many
ten ye roles can we get in Germany to be
fully involved in joining football, because if you do that,
you create a much larger potential foundation, you know, a
basis of players that eventually are going to make their

(01:22:24):
way up the hurdles as it were, through the game,
and you know, stand a much better chance of doing
well in a professional setting or when they finally do
play on a big pitch and when they do play
in a full sized game with eleven and eleven, I
think that's a much better way to approach it. You know,
there'll be people who criticize the fact that there's no

(01:22:44):
goalkeeper coaching because there's no goalies. Yeah, well there's a
separate set of coaching for that, and obviously, you know,
there are ways to accommodate. It's not that there's one
fixed format for me, Fanina, there are lots of different
ways to go around it. But you're effectively equippy skills
kids with the skills that they need to play at
the absolute next level. And if you do that, then
the talent pool is bigger, and if you do that,

(01:23:04):
then the likelihood of more players ending up at the
elite level is much higher. So it's a system I totally,
you know, was totally in love with when I heard
him talk about it, and I'm delighted that it's being
implemented and it has been for a while at some
club levels, and there's just so many positives really, you

(01:23:24):
you know, returning the fund to the game for the
kids is the biggest thing for me, really makes such
a difference.

Speaker 3 (01:23:31):
It really resonated with me on a lot of different levels,
I mean, not least of which is a field hockey coach.
Horse Line was a field hockey coach of course. Yeah,
and it's ironic that hasn't really been taken up Nina
hasn't really been taken up in in hockey. Yes, we're playing.
I mean I've been advocating a little for quite a while.
We do have a format in field hockey over here

(01:23:52):
in England which is called quick sticks, which is a
four v four to two goal game similar idea, okay,
but tradition, tradition dictates and eight year olds play on
a quarter pitch for growing across the pitch in full
size goals and they play seven aside and what happens
is there's fourteen players and there's sticks flying in at

(01:24:16):
a ball and then the ball pops out and then
somebody runs away and scores, and that that happens for
about seven minutes. There's not a lot of ball touches.
So I've been advocating something similar to f Nino, and
I definitely and do it a lot in in kind
of the sort of game the training games that we play.
One of the things I really like about it and
what it really spoke to me about was how in

(01:24:40):
Germany they've sort of seems to me anyway, they've embraced
a more kind of games based approach, which has been
quite popular in different different parts of the world, and
certainly the FA and a number of the other major
sports have including including GB hockey, have definitely embraced a
more game based approach. Actually looking at well, let's create

(01:25:00):
a little game. Let's create a game form where the
learning is taking place because of the game form, because
the game form is designed to allow it. So you
don't have to go, right, here's training where you're going
to get loads of touch of the ball. Here's a
game where you're not going to get as many touches
of the ball. It's like, well, actually, let's just do
the training. Let's make the game a bit like what
we might do with training, so that it's actually a
better experience and also allowing the development to happen naturally

(01:25:25):
and more organically, so it's sort of allowing the skills
to emerge because the game form demands it of the athletes,
as opposed to you know, for example, like my little
boys just start playing football last year. He's playing nine
v nine and he's ten and you know, ninety nine.
On these pitches, some of the goalies can't kick the
ball far enough exactly, you know, and they can be pressed.

(01:25:45):
So actually the game isn't particularly good game. There's hardly
any and he can anyone exactly well. He learned quite
quickly because he wasn't particularly technically a deck because he
only just started playing. But actually the best way for
him to perform was to tackle. So he's like the
tackle monster in the game because he gets prayed for
tackling and he's prepared to do so. So he gets
stuck in the tackles and everyone goes great. But that's
kind of his main job now, So he's not really

(01:26:06):
developing any technical capability the tackler, although I'm being a
bit unfair, he is. He is developing, and he has
developed quite quite a lot with no input from me, clearly,
you know, because what do I know anyway? What's really
but what's fascinating is this podcast in particular, is very,
very committed to the idea that if we can create
the right kind of environment for a young person that's

(01:26:28):
based on their developmental needs, but most importantly based on
their engagement and fun and enjoyment and opportunities to express
without adults coming in telling them what to do exactly,
and not only like you say, and I'm so glad
you said this. Yes, not only are we going to
get them really excited in huson wanting to have, you know,
kind of a lifelong affiliation with that activity, but they

(01:26:52):
actually get better as well.

Speaker 4 (01:26:56):
And that's the beauty of it. And and I think
that you talk about games there, that's that's one of
the best things about it. You know that the idea
would be that there would just be tournaments that you
would turn up and you would go to a certain
city and then you play tournaments in that day, and
that'll be it. If you take away the league structure,
then you also take away this obsession and focus with
winning and as you say, this division between training and matches.

(01:27:17):
And so yeah, if we can if we can return
the fun in a way that effectively also creates an
environment in which they will come out of it with
a greater skill set than before, then it seems to
me that there's almost no downside to it, you know,
because that's that's the best way to do it. And

(01:27:41):
you know, if you if you can have a coaching
situation where once you've explained the game, you almost don't
need to do anything, so you're no longer interjecting as
a coach or can constantly saying, Okay, guys, we need
to do this again, or can we set the back
four up again? Or you know. And at a younger level,
it's so important, I think to let these children just play,

(01:28:04):
just discover, dribble more, score goals, celebrate those moments, get
used to being in space and moving around. And the
interesting thing is you can do this drill with twelve
year olds. You can do this drill with fifteen year olds,
and I saw it in practice, even fourteen year olds
from academies, they sometimes struggle with that drill. Yeah, and
that's what the beauty of it. There's so many different

(01:28:25):
forms of it that you can apply with goalies, not
with goalies, slightly bigger, slightly smaller, fewer goals, more touches.
But the base foundation of this drill is built around
having kids just enjoy the game. And ironically, if you
let them do that for a few years, by the
time they're ready to play in a bigger skill set,
they will be so technically sound in terms of having

(01:28:48):
confidence on the ball, much better control. And also they'll
just enjoy football more. And I think, you know, there's
a real danger, as I was talking about earlier, of
pushing kids into this ironment of well, you know, you're
in a professional academy now, you know, you play for
Manchester City for example. You know, you got the track
suit and you're in the end of it. You know,
here's the photo and here's You've got a big, big,

(01:29:10):
busy schedule, you know, and if you don't play well enough,
you're out and there's no guarantee. And the pressure that
that also puts on parents, and how do you handle
that with your children? How are you supposed to tell
an eight year old, oh, you know, you know, I
don't know what to say. They're so desperate to become
a professional footballer. They don't play every Saturday. They're coming
home to you and they're like, dad, you know, I
just want to play. I just want to have that opportunity.

(01:29:31):
Why doesn't the coach pick me? You know? And the
coach is just there so that he can make sure
that he wins and he does well and it looks
good on his TV. You know, this is just an example,
but that's not helping anybody, you know, and that's why
I think it's so wonderful about this, this approach, and
I'm so it's ironic that it took a dramatic failing
on the biggest stage for Germany and by that obviously

(01:29:54):
me in Russia last year for them to make this
change at youth level, because you know, this has been
advocating for this for a number of years, and it's
amazing that our project that started I think it was
twenty twelve, I think it was when he first did
it in his town, in a local town with fifty
six kids, is now being rolled out on a national basis.

(01:30:15):
You know, it's credit to him for pursuing it and
believing in it, but it's it's perhaps a bit of
a shame that it took Germany's Federal Association Football Association
so long to recognize the error of their youth coaching,
and that it was because of a first team error

(01:30:37):
on the biggest stage that they decided to make changes.
I mean, I'm glad the changes have been made, but
there's a case to be made that they should have
been should have been introduced early.

Speaker 3 (01:30:46):
It's often the way isn't it. They say that necessity
is the mother of invention, Yes, and also that often,
you know, in order to create the you know, create
the kind of catalyst for change, you need some kind
of catastrophic failure in order to bring about it. And
often it's a shame because you'd hope that people might
have the foresight. But too often, I think in these

(01:31:08):
kinds of environments, you know, particularly on national level, you know,
there's this whole idea of it it's not broke, you know,
if it's not broken, don't fix fix it.

Speaker 4 (01:31:14):
Germany really suffered from that. They really suffered from that
on a national scale. The worst thing they did was
twenty fourteen. They won the World Cup and they thought
that was it. They did not make the changes. And
I go into detail about this to the book, and
I am pretty ruthless and I'm pretty blunt, but that's
because I was fortunate enough to be around them during
the twenty eighteen competition, and I've watched them for a
number of years. I just was so frustrated. They kept

(01:31:35):
saying one thing, you know, we're at the peak where
we're here with the blueprint, were the best, and they
did nothing and true quality, true the best teams in
the world, Teams like the All Blacks when they reached
the top, they do not even acknowledge it. They are
so far from recognizing at the top that they are
already focusing on how to stay there. And Germany did
not do that and paid the price. And you know,

(01:31:57):
now they've got to start.

Speaker 3 (01:31:58):
Again because everybody else is going to try and on.
Everyone's going to do to level their level best to
you know, to overcome, you know, and they'll look at, Okay,
what's what what can we see that they've done there? Right,
we're gonna we're going to emulate that and all that
sort of stuff, you know, and probably it's a yeah,
I mean, it's we could go we could go on,
but it's it's it's a really good it's a good
lesson though in many ways, isn't it around you know,
kind of innovative development, developmental cultures, whether they are academies,

(01:32:21):
whether they are national associations, or whether it's just a
little club or it's just a coach working with a
group of players. You know, this idea that once we've
achieved a goal, that's kind of it will just carry on.
It just doesn't work that way. We're always looking to
strive to find that little little moment of improvement that
little horse brung the edge. See I definitely it's gone in.

(01:32:43):
It's definitely gone in.

Speaker 4 (01:32:44):
It's all coming back to.

Speaker 3 (01:32:47):
Jonathan. Listen, I'm gonna be mindful of your time. And
as fascinating as the conversation has been been, I I
highly recommend anybody to go out and get it. There's
some there's there's genuinely some you know, there's a there's
a low of insights. It's a I'm going to say
it's a it's a it's a two reader.

Speaker 4 (01:33:03):
For me.

Speaker 3 (01:33:04):
I've had to go back and yes, there's that. Oh yeah,
that is because I really want and it's a bit
of a I went through it quite quickly and then
I'm like, oh no, I've got to get back into
that because of some real good detail in there that
I want to want to be able to pull out.
So highly recommend it to anybody. If people are interested
in maybe I don't know, reaching out to you or
getting in touch, or you know, maybe they want we

(01:33:25):
need to come and speak at a conference. It often happens.
How can they get in touch?

Speaker 4 (01:33:28):
Is it?

Speaker 3 (01:33:28):
What's the best.

Speaker 4 (01:33:29):
Way the best way. I'm on Twitter most of the time.
John blogs sixty six, so yeah, feel free to drop
me a line on there. If you want to email
me then JRJ. Dot Harding at gmail dot com. But yeah,
I mean, please feel free to get in touch. And
just really grateful for the opportunity to share the insights

(01:33:49):
of the coaches I've spoken to and to be able
to talk about to talk about this with someone who's
so qualified and so smart, so I appreciate it. Well.

Speaker 3 (01:33:59):
I always say the podcast is only as good as
the guests, So thank you for contributing to this one,
and I wish you all the best, and I hope,
I hope the book goes fantastically well because it's a
really useful and fascinating insight into, in my opinion, where
coaching needs to go more and I think it really

(01:34:21):
adds to and it's going to really support many of
the messages that a lot of us in the community
have been trying to advocate for some time.

Speaker 4 (01:34:27):
Well, I really appreciate that to it. Thank you very much.
I hope it goes well as well.

Speaker 2 (01:34:39):
Thanks for listening to the Talent Equation podcast. If you
like the show, then please consider supporting it by leaving
a review on your favorite podcast player, telling your friends
about it, or even becoming a hero and show your
appreciation by becoming a patron. Just head over to the
Talent Equation dot co dot uk and click on the
becoming a Patron pud at the top of the page.

Speaker 3 (01:35:01):
So there you have it. Fantastic conversation. Really enjoyed it, Jonathan,
Thanks so much for coming on the show. Really really
interesting conversation. And actually thanks so much for writing the book.
Really found it absolutely fascinating. As I said, As I
said in the podcast three Takeaways from Me to share
with everybody. The starting point is the title mention finger

(01:35:24):
a human capture, not a human capture in terms of
some sort of pantomime villain, but the idea of being
able to capture another individual, another person, and be able
to you know, kind of work and engage them in
that way. That idea of engagement is so key, and
I think the idea of working in that way, I

(01:35:45):
really like that term. The other one for me is
this this conceptualization around you know, generation why and working
with different generations and being prepared to engage with them
and explain why we're we're involved in certain exercises rather
than them just following blindly along with you know, the
instructions that we provide or the activities that we provide.

(01:36:07):
And then and then obviously there's lots of stuff around
the transformation that's happening within German German football focusing much
more into a kind of a games based model, if
you like, which is obviously of real interest to me.
But I just a quote that really I wrote down
that I think is worth sharing with everybody. This idea
of the fire you want to light in others must
burn inside you. It just came just really resonated with me,

(01:36:29):
actually because I thought to myself, yeah, that's that's definitely
something that I need to hold close in terms of
making sure that you know my passion and my engagement
really translates onto the players. An obvious thing, really, but
sometimes you need to be reminded of the obvious things.
I hope you enjoyed the conversation. I certainly did. Lots

(01:36:50):
of takeaway. I'll be discussing the book actually with with
some members of the Conclave over the next over the
coming months. Then, CLAVI is a group of individuals like mine,
individuals who want to come together to learn from each other,
and I facilitate and prompt it. If you want to
get involved, then the way to do that is to
become a Patreon supporter. There's a particular level that you

(01:37:13):
can do that, and you can join in now. If
you can't join the Conclave, that's fine, not a problem.
But any support that you can provide will be really
greatly appreciated because it helps keep the podcast running because
the costs seem to increase with changes to bandwidth and
hosting costs and all those sorts of things, so I'd
be appreciative. You can become a supporter for the price

(01:37:35):
of a cup of coffee or even two cups of coffee,
or you can get involved in the Conclave and then
become an active learner as well. Entirely up to you,
but it'd be great to have you on board and
be part of the community. In the meantime, have a
great week of coaching, and remember ditch those drills.

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"Menschenfenger" - exploring the way that Germany approaches coach development - a conversation with Jonathan Harding

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.css-14f5ked{margin:0;word-break:break-word;display:-webkit-box;-webkit-box-orient:vertical;box-orient:vertical;-webkit-line-clamp:2;overflow:hidden;}"Menschenfenger" - exploring the way that Germany approaches coach development - a conversation with Jonathan Harding