November 13, 2024 • 52 mins
A new collaboration between Mark Bennett MBE and Stuart Armstrong that looks at topical news items and explore how they impact people in sport, education, business and life through the lens of the PDS philosophy and the principles of Ecological Dynamics.
Mark and I got cut off by our recording software crashing but we thought we would publish the rough cut anyway!
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Mark and I got cut off by our recording software crashing but we thought we would publish the rough cut anyway!
Become a supporter of this podcast: https://www.spreaker.com/podcast/the-talent-equation-podcast--2186775/support.
Mark as Played
Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:00):
Right then.
Speaker 2 (00:02):
Exciting new project, a new collaboration. One of the benefits
of me now working outside of sort of a formal
employment structure, I suppose is we're able to reconnect with people.
And the good news is that I've been able to
reconnect with a massive influence on my career, life, parenting, relationships, coach, coaching.
Speaker 1 (00:34):
So this is a new.
Speaker 2 (00:38):
Series I suppose that Marke and I are embarking on
which we have loosely entitled, but maybe we haven't loosely
We're going to stick with it, which is it depends
or does it where we're going to unpick many of
the areas sort of underpinning performance coaching, coach to development,
(01:01):
people development, things like you know, management, all those sorts
of things, just but really reinvestigating some of the dynamics
and bringing to life some of the dynamics around working
working using the PDS framework and also just how we
can then graph that on from a practical perspective and
(01:22):
its applications. Anyway, Mark, welcome, and I'm excited.
Speaker 3 (01:30):
We could say twenty plus years in the making, couldn't
we really in the golf those decades ago?
Speaker 1 (01:41):
Yeah, we could, we could.
Speaker 2 (01:42):
It's the collaboration that every that that there's been meant
to be but has never actually materialized, right, So that
we've got a number of things to talk about. But
I guess just the starting point, I suppose maybe if
I just say to you, like where the sort of
genesis of this idea has come from, because it is
(02:04):
a little bit not entirely your brain child, but it's
certainly something that you know you've conceived of, and then
we can then sort of do that sort of intro
and then we can lead into sort of our subject
matter for the day.
Speaker 3 (02:15):
Yes, So in essence, obviously you and I have known
each other for decades now from the golf and through
the journey of your different roles. The challenge has always
been is you've been employed by an organization and with
that come responsibility in certain filters and also time and commitment.
So when when I found out you left to go freelance,
(02:40):
I just thought, well, this is a great opportunity. I've
been on your podcast I think equaling amount of times
unless someone's trumped me now, But the challenge with the
podcasts are it's a one off and obviously you have
many different guests. So I thought, now we're in that position.
We've got so much experience of challenges but also solutions
(03:04):
in business in the sport world is to have and
I know we said we'll start our fortnightly, then we
can see where we go. Something that links, something that
sinks something. We can have some fundamental headings to guide
us through, to allow us to discuss things in the news,
discuss things that through your own journey, Stuart, which we
(03:24):
talk about in the members earlier, which numbers area which
we're going to, but also some real tangible tools for
performance coaches, athletes, managers, performance directors, business, but also then
for the community coach, business manager, organizer. So each couple
of weeks we've got something that connects to the last
it's not just a one off. And also having an
(03:46):
opportunity for people to listen to this comment and ask questions,
and then the following fortnite actually we can answer those
key questions and potentially shuffle the content to have that
as discussion for the next two weeks and also linked
with elements in the news. So for me, I thought
it was a great opportunity to have a flow and
(04:07):
the whole point of all the passion I have in
people development, and I know with yourself is not a
one off hit. It's what can we do where someone
can go somewhere and say when I listen to that,
I mean they're going to come away with questions. I
can research, come out with some strategies that is going
to I can commit to and explore, or actually just
connect me back to the real world, connect me back
(04:29):
to actually somebody gets it. Somebody is living my nightmare
or living my dream, which we know within management and
coaching we get a mix of those each week.
Speaker 2 (04:41):
Yeah, And I think, from my perspective, it's an opportunity
I think to revisit some of the areas. And I
guess selfishly to a certain extent, I guess I'm playing
the role as the role of learner in some respects
because as much as I've been a student and disciple
(05:02):
of much of you know, your your approach, teaching, et cetera,
et cetera, and applied it, one of the things that
I'm aware of is that I've I guess, I've sort
of never really been able to fully kind of integrate.
So we've often joked in the past that you know,
(05:24):
you know, I'm if I had a karate belt, a
PDS karate belt, where would I be? You know, am
I a yellow belt or a brown belt or wherever
it is? And I guess this is a journey for
me to sort of finally, I guess, achieve try and
achieve my black belt by revisiting to a certain extent,
sort of many of the principles, most of which I
may have forgotten because I've sort of dipped in and
out and dipped in and out.
Speaker 1 (05:45):
So this is a deep dive for me, and so.
Speaker 2 (05:47):
I'm going to be asking many of the kind of
I guess, the stupid questions and revisiting some of those things,
but equally trying as well to maybe graph those on
to sort of different contexts that I operate with in
and sort of talk about what application might be in
some of these different contexts. And we do intend as
much as we'd be talking about the sports context, we'll
also be talking about a business context. We'll be talking
(06:11):
about maybe educational environments. We'll be talking about you know,
kind of adult to adult learning scenarios and all of
those different dimensions as well. So you know, because obviously
much of that is stuff I did on a day
to day basis, So it's probably worth just mentioning that
there's a you know, I guess I'm a bit of
a guinea pig on the journey as far as it
is concerned.
Speaker 3 (06:33):
And that's linking into one of the elements we're going
to do is obviously you've the members area, which is
my one hundred and fifty plus hours of resources. Now
you've actually started to go through the full journey starting
intotorial one. So each of the fortnights we're going to
actually and that's when people may see that haven't. The
challenge at Mark is to actually go through and psydeka,
(06:54):
what have you learned there? What are you doing with
what you've learned, and actually share your challenges and difficulties
of the applying new skill thinking in a different way
when everything is pulling you back to your old way.
So I think that's going to be really useful as
a step journey. Okay, what have you done with what
you've learned? You know, and where are the obstacles and
(07:14):
you know what's resonated with you. I think that can
help connect a lot of people. But as you say,
apart from this verse one, which obviously we're explaining it
we can really get stuck in straight away. You know
what is it we're talking about this this session. What's tangible?
Where the real world challenges? And I think where we
I think we'll sink quite well, because in general, if
(07:35):
we if we looked at it, Okay, what's the big
difference between you and I is you're in the big
picture philosophy, design, development pathway. So many decades experienced within
that at the high level, whereas I've been, although obviously
I connect with a lot of that, a lot of
my work is on the shop floor with the performance director,
(07:57):
with the head coach, with the senior boss, dealing with
the day to day challenges of implementing change within an organization.
So I think coming together you can share that big picture,
we can lick the tangibles, and then I can really
come into well, here's a here's a common challenge, but
here's some strategies and solutions or actually sometimes it isn't
one off answer. Sometimes is look, you got to You've
(08:19):
got to walk through the mud to come out the
other end. It is not going to look nice for
maybe months before you get to the outcomes you're looking for.
Speaker 2 (08:28):
Yeah, and that also reminded me of something as well,
which is that we're very much working in the open here,
and this is an exploration. The other dimension to this
as well is one of the things that we've talked
about doing a little bit is yes, mapping onto different
(08:49):
context and environments. But also, you know, my journey with
PDS has been one where you know, it's been a
companion to me very much like if you think of
the outrigger on an outrigger canoe. You know, it's the
sort of thing that keeps the stability. But at the
same time, you know where the directions that I've been
paddling in have taken me in different directions. So of
(09:11):
course one of the areas that I've become extremely kind
of I've got very focused on and you know, just
done a lot of personal discovery and have been utilizing
in application is this area of ecological dynamics and sort
of the impact of that from a perspective of developing
(09:33):
skill learning, learning and development and all those sorts of areas.
And I suppose this is partly going to be an
expiration of where we can see where the kind of
the interfaces and the overlap is. I actually think there
is lots and I actually think that PDS offers a
really strong foundation. It was probably the one of the
(09:57):
things that helped me have a jumping off point into
the world of ecological dynamics, because it meant I reconceptualized learning,
I reconceptualized human performance and all those sorts of things,
and it was probably a real grounding in placing humans
at the center of the learning experience, or the learner
at the center of the experience, whether that's coach, athlete,
or whoever, which then made it very easy for me
(10:18):
to sort of graft onto ideas around things like ecological dynamics,
which is again very much a sort of human centered,
environment centered thing. So there's an intention to try and
sort of map those two things together.
Speaker 1 (10:32):
The final thing, I'd say as well.
Speaker 2 (10:34):
Format wise, obviously we're recording this one and probably the
first few just to get used to new platforms and
different ways of doing things. But the platform we're using
is has a feature that will enable us to do
some stuff live, so it may be that periodically down
the track we do these as live streams as a
bit of a kind of lunch and learn type of thing,
because we intend to try and record at the same
(10:54):
time each week roughly lunchtime, which will enable them people
to interact. So after they heard two or three of
the sessions, it may be the questions emerging and they
can kind of join us and be part of the conversation,
you know, from the live stream perspective, which would be
going out by various different social channels.
Speaker 3 (11:13):
And that links back to the title, really doesn't it,
which was a bit of a cheeky one but kind
of resonated in a humorous way. Is from from my side,
I think, and this is where we can be raw
here because we're not employed by anybody ourselves, is I think.
And I know we've had discussions about it, and I've
had discussions from people that almost have become other sides,
(11:36):
you know, are you them or are you us? Kind
of thing as opposed to that we're all together. It's
just breaking down the barriers, and I think of understanding.
So a success for me during this as well would
be anything, whether it's ecological dynamics or any coaching styles,
irrelevant philosophies, is we make it in a way where
people can understand. But what does that look like in
(11:58):
my world? How can I understand it? How can I
synergize it and how do I understand? A lot of
this is down to judgment once you're making informed choices
linked to That's why I call my work is need
CENTERCE is LinkedIn, well, where's your lighthouse? So it's not
about getting success in this next ten minutes or hour.
It may be getting success in six months, But what
(12:19):
do you need to do now? Now you know what
your outcome end state is? And I think that's where
if we can break those barriers down where somebody isn't
an academic and I know you and I are not academics,
is someone could say, oh, I now know what that means,
and I know now how I can add that to
what I already do. And could it be now I'm
seeing things in a different way, I may change more
(12:40):
because now I understand it better.
Speaker 2 (12:44):
Yeah, that's that's definitely, definitely true, and it's probably worth mentioning.
You know that from a methodological perspective, we're fairly agnostic,
you know, so if somebody is a particular devotee of
a particular delivery method, that's fine. You know, that's not
necessarily the point of this. The point is I have
my own sort of I guess sort of theoretical and
(13:04):
philosophical underpinnings that basically are which are central to my practice.
But PDS is entirely compatible with that. There is no
there's no kind of dilemma, or if there is, then
actually that's something we need to like unpick and have
a conversation about and see whether that there is incompatibilities
or whether that whether that actually grafts on or not.
Speaker 3 (13:27):
One shall I share our titles that we may change
because we're organic, but we're sticking with at the moment
for every two weeks. Obviously, this one's a bit of
a lengthier intro. So we have gone for and I'm
not sure if your technology we have a screenshot this
in Stuart or not within this once the record, but
we have the first bit is any element from the
(13:50):
news that we're can discuss relevant that's hits social media,
that's caused a bit of a disagreement or a highlighted element.
An example might be when the the manager of football
is asked to leave and now they're looking for a
new recruit as opposed to finding one earlier. Those type discussions.
Then we're going to go into a members area highlights,
so you're going through the journey Stewart, So this will
(14:12):
be great because you're going through with the coach. I
am an active coach and this is a journey I'm
going through, so we can discuss certain chapters, something you
may not understand, something you're finding difficult, or something you've
now committed to, so it's a journey. Then we're going
to talk about a performance tip, so we're going to
discuss something that's relevant to the elite performance, whether that's
in business or sport. And then we're going to have
(14:35):
a community tip, so that is more something that is
more for grassroots or in a community type situation where
we're saying, actually, you know, we haven't got the high
performance attitudes, but actually we struggle with engagement. Whether it
may be we can share a tip there. And then
the last bit is just what's coming up, so looking
forward to what we're going to do or what's coming
up in the next a few weeks. Within the first element,
(14:58):
we're also on that intro, we're going to look at
answering the questions that you guys listening may put in
and when we're live, obviously we can do that dynamically
and actually some of your questions may impact the performance
and the community tips when we plan ahead. So the
more feedback you give us, the more we can make
(15:19):
this as valuable to you listening or watching as we can.
If we want to make it real, we want to
make it actually there's things you can take away and
when you've finished, it's going to have an impact on
your behaviors, even in your thinking, your action, or your exploration.
That that is success for us.
Speaker 2 (15:37):
There you go, that's that's definitely it. I'm just going
to put this onto the ticker so that people can
see what our format is going to be. It's going
to scroll across the screen in you course show it
should come through. There you go, things you've seen in
the news, how this relates to elements of BDS, some
top tips related stuff, and then some questions from the
(15:58):
audience going forward? Summary or have I oversimplified?
Speaker 1 (16:02):
Yeah?
Speaker 2 (16:03):
We like simple, great, so as we So okay, well
start us off, then, Mark, let's get let's get into
the weeds.
Speaker 3 (16:14):
So you did share a link with me? Do you
want to start with that?
Speaker 1 (16:21):
Well?
Speaker 2 (16:21):
Yes, So my first starting point, I suppose was as
I was exploring various different things, there was a link
that I saw from an ex Olympian and speaker called
kath Bishop, and this was on LinkedIn who had done
(16:46):
a post and it was in response to a post
from an organization that I got to know a little
bit when I was at Sport England actually called the
True Athlete Project, and the True Athlete Project very much
as sort of calling for change in particularly high performance sport,
but I think also across sport, and I actually had
(17:07):
one of their founders, a guy called Lawrence Casso Halsted,
who was an ex Olympic fencer who had written a
book called The True Athlete Project Book. And in the
book there was a lot of stuff about talking about
a different set of ideals around sport that were different
from the traditional ones which are around you know, things
(17:28):
like hard work and dedication and commitment and sacrifice and
these sorts of things, and they were going for something
that was much more about flourishing and you know kind
of people exploring. And then so they posted this notion
of this idea of what does winning well look like?
And then Bishop had sort of shared that and was
talking about the way that sport was almostgoing undergoing a
(17:50):
little bit of a reappraisal and needs to go through
a bit of a reappraisal as it begins to explore,
you know, how we can work together. And the bit
that I was particularly interested in and obviously relates to
our subject matter, is if we talk about this notion
of winning well, which might be oxymoronic, but anyway, we
(18:13):
can explore that in itself. There's this whole idea and
one of the ideas of sort of working from a
values led perspective, which I think is similar to the
needs led perspective, but we can explore the differences. But
one of the things I talk about is the idea
of having coaches that are and our quote this, that
are aligned and connected to the holistic vision and their
(18:34):
role as social change makers. Now, I think that maps
on really closely and it resonates very very strongly with
a lot of the ideas. But I think it begs
a question. It begs a question of how does one
do that? Because one of the things that we know
is there is I think a lot of cultural problems
(18:56):
within the world of coaching and coach education and coach
development that don't necessarily connect the dots as far as
what does it take to be, you know, to go
from just a broad, glib statement to something that's actually
practical and real and actually manifests on the ground. This
(19:16):
idea that you know, being aligned and connected to the
holistic vision and their role as social change makers. I mean,
the very notion of a holistic vision. I am not
sure that exists in many contexts, and I would say
that your experiences of working across the entire gamut of
sort of environments elites for community, sport, schools, business contexts,
(19:43):
I would argue that probably and you can tell me
if I'm wrong here. One of the things I imagine
you would see is common is that this notion of
being aligned and connected to this so called holistic vision,
there isn't a holistic vision, and therefore how can you
be aligned and connected to So that's actually probably one
of the underpinnings anyway. So that's kind of our opener. Really,
(20:04):
it's an interesting thought process. It was something that's I
think very relevant for the moment in time around. I
think sport itself in particular is going through this cultural reappraisal.
What is the purpose of sport? What is the role
of sport in society? And rather than thinking, you know,
what ways can we get more people doing sport. What
we're actually saying is how can we make sport relevant
(20:27):
to people and make it mean something.
Speaker 1 (20:29):
For them in their wider lives.
Speaker 2 (20:32):
And that's just an interesting challenge I think for the
sports sector, and I think definitely maps on I note
to much a lot of your teachings.
Speaker 3 (20:39):
I think the biggest challenge is if I use just
that saying yes but so that pretty much covers nine
to nine point nine percent of people that in a
room at the beginning of a season or a business
organization where they're going, right, this is who we want
to be, they say it, but there's caveats the butt.
So in sports as an exile, yes, you know, we're
(21:01):
really going to work on developing people, but we still
need to win. So as soon as you hear the
butt we still need to win that two things jump
out at me. One is, well, why do you think
they're different? Because we can't guarantee winning unless you're somebody
that can buy the best athletes in et cetera. And
you know, the stuff that none of us really can
do is thinking they're different, thinking that if we don't
(21:26):
develop software and hardware in people in interdependency, unless for
some extreme and maybe a sport I've never worked with,
and I've worked with over thirty that actually is so individual.
You don't even have anyone with you. I mean everyone's
got from shooting to gold. There are people around you
that help you perform, but it's the interdependency of understanding. Okay,
(21:47):
So it's not about a philosophy, it's not about a
you know, are we going to do this? It's actually
saying you know that. I call it the lighthouse. But
if we're saying there's a governing body or an organization saying, right,
if we say this is who we are, what success
look like, what success look like this year, and what
success looked like for the next five, ten years, and
(22:08):
once we know what the success looks like, and not
just big pictures, what that look like for the cleaner,
what would that look like for the people that cleans
the uniforms, the players, the coaches, the managers, the accountant,
the treasurer. You know, this is if we're saying to behaviors,
we can't have contradictions in here. But then are we
saying are we prepared once we know what that looks
(22:30):
like to look within ourselves and identify what are my
daily behaviors I need within my role? What do they
look like? And we put the UA's against and what
would be unacceptable, acceptable, exceptional? What do I need to
be better at or continue to do with any data
pass to somebody else above me, left or right below me?
That could be accountant, a manager, a player, a parent,
(22:53):
doesn't matter. So then what I've got to do is say, well,
I need to spend time now to understand if I'm
passing data and when I say to information interaction, whether
that's for an email or voice or product. Is what
I'm saying, is I need to understand when you receive
information from me, is it useful? Do you understand it?
And is it fit for purpose? Let me understand so
(23:15):
I can empathize your challenges and your needs and when
they do it the other way round. Okay, So when
I'm past it, i'm receiving information, I want the person
that's sending it to ask me the same questions. So
now I'm saying, Okay, now I recognize who I need
to be aligned to that lighthouse. Now I recognize how
I need to interact better and the obstacles to break
down to anyone I'm interacting with interdependently. It's the same
(23:39):
for athletes on a picture of court. Once I understand that,
we say, okay, so what are the changes we need
to make. Now here's where the difficult part happens. We
need to prioritize it, so we're not going to change
everything straight away. But what is the number one? Once
I know the number one, I explicitly impact that as
a work on that trumps everything else, barring safety, so
(24:00):
long as it's aligned to the lighthouse. And then we
share with everyone of influence, this is what I need
to change. This is why, this is what it looks like.
These are the permissions I'm giving you. So if I'm not,
you can say this to me and I'm giving you
permission to do that. And these are the what if
So if this happened, you can do this. If this happens,
I'm going to let you know here. I know, even
(24:20):
with our brief interaction of setting this up, we had
that agreement where we say, okay, so let's agree to
reply to each other in this amount of time. If
we say we're going to do something, we commit to
it within the date and timeline. If we don't, as
soon as we know out of our control, we let
the other person know and then we honor these elements.
So until we do that, and then we say, right,
how long is it going to take to change? That's
(24:42):
a pie in the sky. So we say, let's review
in four weeks. So each week, I mean, I put
loads of adherence frameworks and we could talk about that
word at Stuart, but the frameworks that allow us to
commit to what we said we're going to do, and
the support around that itself and others. So there's lots
of things to allow to keep it top of our head.
But that's a brief level of the level of commitment
(25:05):
we need to support change, and we can't compromise and say,
hang on, we lost this week. Oh no, no, I
need to go back to the instruction or to tell
you or doing what we need to do the quick fix,
because a quick fix will just be a barrier to
the change we've now agreed we need to make. And
they're normally three four year plan Stewart, they're not normally
(25:25):
a season plan. And if you look at the great
teams in the world, you can look at Formula one,
you look at premiership football, rugby, hockey, NBA, No one's
at the top forever. But what there are is you
see this growth of change. I would say of look
at potentially at Williams F one in the next three years.
You watch how they will develop, I believe based on
(25:46):
the personalities of bringing in and the work they're doing.
So what we've got to understand is to stay at
the top is very rare. But what we also need
to say is generally it takes three four years to
build the culture and the behaviors we need within the
people we have and then recruit the right people in
and know who that is and how do I assess
that not on an interview, and also have the courage
(26:08):
to say, I use that old saying Stuart, change the
coach or change the coach to say, if I'm doing
everything I can, once we're agreeing in this organization, the
change the behaviors I know you need to make and
you're still not deciding to make them, then I'm going
to move you on. Either find the right job for
you that fits your role, or just say thanks, but
(26:29):
you're not for us, and have the courage to do that,
but don't compromise what you've now said. Whether we call
it philosophy or away, it doesn't matter. That's a level
of due diligence and clarity we need with everyone of
influence from the beginning, and that patience to develop and
discover and then the commitment cycle of reviewing every four
weeks and not changing it because of an outcome. And
(26:51):
that's why generally businesses and sports do not make the
change they need. And you see in top sports you
and business often it's or just fire the coach, the
manager and get someone else in and hopefully that's the answer.
And generally it's not generally that there's a bit of
luck involved. If that you're going to ripple and then
it dips again. But generally it's the people who are recruiting.
(27:11):
The people of influence at the very top need to
understand what we've just discussed here and understand. Am I
willing to do it? Am I willing to commit to it?
Am I willing to share this shareholders? Stakeholders, Look, we're
looking at a three year change plan, but this is
what you're likely to see, so maybe a dip in outcome,
but these are the performance markers I can share with you,
and behaviors in judgment, decision making, that I can review
(27:35):
with you every eight weeks whatever we agree, so you
can see we're on the right path. And that's a
snapshot Stewart of why those discussions are often not successful
in application.
Speaker 1 (27:48):
So there's a lot to unpack there.
Speaker 2 (27:52):
One of the things I was just going to start on, though,
is I think the point you make is a really
interesting one. It's one that I've talked about a lot
for which is this notion of you know.
Speaker 1 (28:02):
They just say fire the coach.
Speaker 2 (28:03):
I think I think in elite context that's probably true,
which the assumption is that just a change of leadership
will magically fix what might be actually sort of systemic
cultural problems within the organizations hierarchy. And I've noticed something
about elite sport organizations, which is the ones that seem
to have sustainable success. And by the way, success is
(28:26):
a relative measure because of sometimes you have sports organizations
that they, you know, not getting relegated might be success
because of the resources that they've got and what have you,
or you know, whatever it might be, or you know,
at a particular performance level. So but interestingly, and I
think that so I think the ones that have success
(28:47):
are the ones that I think have a sort of
a philosophical and a cultural framework that's sort of embedded
within the organization. And what they tend to do is
they'll recruit leaders who map onto that philosophical for all,
that sort of ideological framework, rather than assume that the
(29:08):
leader will bring a new way of operating in and
magically transform the organization. And by the way, those leaders
aren't those coaches aren't necessarily like the leaders of the
whole organization. What they are are you know, they're talismanic
and they have a role to play, but they can't
necessarily run the rest of the business. And so that's
a major challenge. But lower down when it comes to
(29:30):
sort of like pathways and practitioners coaches in this case
working in pathways, what I've noticed is almost sort of
the opposite, which is organizations they're quite happy to have
they develop athlete curricula or development frameworks or talent development
(29:50):
frameworks or whatever it might be, and they in the
best cases use those talent development frameworks as a mechanism
by which to determ demine whether an individual should enter
a talent pathway, progress in a talent pathway, or be
essentially removed from the talent pathway, de selected or not
(30:12):
selected into the next round or the next phase, or
whatever it might be. So they have a very clear
expectation on athlete in terms of what's required to be
in the system, and they obviously have to make those
decisions because they can't have there's a limited space and
they can't resource all the athletes that they would want
to as much as they'd like to. But when it
(30:32):
comes to coaches, there's nothing like the same rigor, so
they don't even necessarily ask the coaches to adhere to
the talent development pathway and to work within that curriculum
framework to a certain extent, often leave the coaches to
their own devices to sort of do whatever it is
that they want, which is interesting. They don't necessarily recruit
(30:56):
those coaches based on their how well versed they are
in that framework and the curricula that they've developed and
the sort of culture of that and how what that
means from a behavioral standpoint. They don't necessarily create, you know,
kind of a job description person specification that you would
recruit against that maps against that, and they don't have
(31:17):
a clear idea of what the behavior's skills knowledge for
an individual would be in order to be able to
perform these various roles within the tealentpathway. And these people
have enormous sway over the futures of you know, young
individuals who are exploring and progressing within this sort of domain,
(31:38):
and there and can, as a result of that, act
in ways which aren't aligned to the organization's goals, and
then that creates conflict difficulty, it can sometimes be quite
harmful from an athlete perspective.
Speaker 3 (31:54):
And so.
Speaker 2 (31:56):
This notion of having this articulation of what a practitioner
should act, how they should act, how they should be,
how they should go about their work, it doesn't exist.
And as a result of that, because it doesn't exist,
if there is sometimes a requirement for removal or for
(32:19):
a conversation that is difficult because that individual isn't necessarily
aligned philosophically with the wider aspirations of the organization, those
are avoided and therefore those individuals don't necessarily have the
change the coach or change the coach conversations that could
exist because of a real lack of clarity of expectation.
(32:39):
And so, going back to that sort of framing that
you're putting, there is that One of the things I
think about PDS is we just get clear on what's expected,
you know, And I think we ask coaches to do
this with athletes, about being clear of expectation, and we
actually ask the athlete to be clear about their own expectations.
I'm getting into the thing of it, but we can
come back to this, be clear about what their own
expectations for themselves are as a starting point. We don't
(33:03):
really do that with practitioners. It's almost like we're afraid
to because I don't know why, but they tend to be.
So we don't seem to be holding coaches and practitioners
to the same holding them accountable to standards, even standards
they've established for themselves, in the same way we are
with athletes. So we deselect athletes very readily. We don't
deselect coaches if those coaches are not acting in accordance
(33:24):
with agreed sets of parameters, largely because those parameters don't
always exist.
Speaker 3 (33:30):
As if there's so much to unpick there and I'm
not going to be able to pick all of it.
But going back to the very initially when you start
that conversation is yes, capability is massive, but what people
need to understand how to measure individual capability and not
have pine a sky false expectations of that results biased.
So that's one element that understanding your outcome will be
(33:53):
based on your capability, But do you know the capability
within each person and importantly self, do you know the
source any breakdown of capability and then interventions and support
to support that change, which is where my action review
process helps in business and sport. The other elements that
you're talking about there is that that element of words
to action. So I know it's used often in Formula
(34:16):
one within their bosses. But that point of right, you've
said you're going to do it, and I know it's
big with in PDS. It has been through the beginning
is show me, don't tell me. Show me. And this
is a point you made which is huge and I
see this so often in football academies, in business at
community level is once we agree we're going to do something,
(34:37):
and you're the person who's the influence of those people
underneath you and next to you're on above, and you've
agreed permissions and you've made sure there's clarity there. You've
eliminated the gray which most people do not do is
then you have to follow through if someone is unacceptable
based on what they said they were going to do,
based on their capability. And this is where it falls
down because, as you say, in business and in sport
(35:00):
unity organization schools, what often happens is people go away
and they get caught up in their normal work and
they're back to what they normally do and then they
slip up. Now sometimes it's just forgotten, which is fair
because it's new. So you put in interventions that aren't aggressive,
but there's an intervention strategy of reflection. And often it's
because they've said they're going to do it, but they're
(35:21):
so used to not committing to any of these initiatives
because there's a new one in two weeks that they
go there's no point because you'll just come up with
something else in two weeks and what's the next fad fashion,
So they don't commit to it because I don't believe
in the change. We've done it all before. Oh we've
tried everything, and they've accepted their mediocrity of where they
are and they're not willing to change because they don't
(35:42):
believe that it's going to be sustainable. So this is
where when we set this up, we've got to make
sure that people setting up are willing to commit to
the ugly of people aggressing and be confident to know
how can I manage my state? What intervention have I've
got to have that conversation and be confident when we
lead the conversation that it's not an ugly walk away.
(36:05):
Actually we've agreed something. They are keeping ownership. I am
not micromanaging them, but we're doing it early enough so
it doesn't start to get to a point where it's
lost now and then we have an emotional interaction with them,
which again you're at a loss there. So I think
back to the change is we need to know what
it looks like. Everyone needs to buy into the value.
(36:27):
They don't have to like it, but buy into the value,
put some years around it, within self role and others.
What does that actually look like? And the problem with
philosophy often is it's a bit pie in the sky,
but what does that look like to us? What does
that look like to you and us? And our interaction
agreed er missions. But then the biggest challenges committing to it.
I don't think I would say the most successful of
(36:48):
it was easiest for me, I'd say is Ebo Soccer Stewart,
which you've seen their videos as plenty in the members area.
I'd say they were They've been the best that can
in to change. There's been obstacles, you know, there's sometimes
I regressed a bit, sometimes it's forgot, but actually one
check and they're back on it. I'd say most organizations.
(37:09):
My biggest challenge is people don't commit to what they
say they're going to and people leave it in the organization.
They leave it and then they wait for me to
come and go, oh, Mark, well, you know we've had
an issue and so we'll remind me what we agreed
for you being a manager and a mentor. Yeah, but
I was a bit uncomfortable. You know, he's a strong personality.
He she's been there for years. Says well, if you
don't have that intervention, you're now not honoring what you agree.
(37:32):
So now you're the one that's unacceptable. And it's building
that confidence to do it, but also it's knowing how
to do it, having a framework that makes it easy
for you to go right. I've got a strategy now,
and I'm going to do it early, and then I'm
going to scan for the change. So I've used that
in a sports context of an intervention. Imagine on a
picture of court and you've just pulled a player over
(37:55):
an athlete, or a timeout. As a group, you've agreed something,
or you've whatever it may be, and then you go
out again. What often happens is the coach then is
looking for the play. They're looking for what's happening next,
But what they're not looking for is hang on, we've
just agreed, we're going to do this. Let me scan
for are you committing to what we agreed, and not
look for other stuff. Not get caught up in scanning
(38:17):
the rest. And if it's a no, we're looking for
as anyone else spotted it. That's where our rule of
three comes in. Is a peer itself? Have they regulated?
If not as a peer, no, Now I need to
choose an intervention because now we're not committing to what
we said. So the intervention again using ARP. So it's
this cycle of we know. The high probability is is
(38:39):
once we agree something as an organizational change, it won't
go swimmingly. It will not commit to action. There will
be dips, people will forget it, will regress it will
go back. So it's being ready for that and know
what interventions are going in place to reduce it. But
then what interventions about got in place, so when it
does happen, I've got the strategy and I will commit
to the stratus relentlessly, patiently for months and years, not
(39:04):
for a couple of weeks. And again we're going back
into that point of we're understanding personalities, especially with strong ones.
Sometimes people will avoid those conversations, but actually it would
be unacceptable to avoid it if it's pre agreed. If
we don't pre agree it, then it becomes very difficult.
But if we pre agreed it with that person, then
it becomes a lot easier. And that's that pre agreement
(39:27):
of clarity we talked about, Stuart.
Speaker 1 (39:31):
Yeah, I mean again, what's to unpick there.
Speaker 2 (39:34):
And we're touching on some things that we're probably going
to get into much more detail about a little bit
later on in future conversations, particularly things when we start
to talk about interventions like all of three or arp
of various things like that. One other thing I wanted
to just pick with you a little bit was in
your sort of opening monologue, you talked about this notion
of yes, But I'm want to circle back to that
(39:57):
because I think that's that's probably the you said. I
think you've said something like ninety nine percent of people
say something to you along those lines.
Speaker 1 (40:06):
Yes, But and that really kind of stuck with me
because I think that is.
Speaker 2 (40:16):
Speak to this point about a journey of change, you know, like,
what do we want change? When do we want it
after an appropriate period of reflection and when everything's right
in terms of our world. Well that's the point, isn't it.
People are often very very keen to bring about change,
but very very unwilling to do what it takes to
(40:40):
bring the change about. And I'll hold my hand up.
You know, I'm as guilty as anybody you know embarking
on this journey. You know, you absolutely live the philosophy,
and it's in every time philosophy, not some time philosophy,
and it's you know, let's establish the kind of rules
of engagement, so to speak, from the game go, you know,
(41:01):
and honoring those rules, you know, is hard for somebody
like me that has a fairly chaotic, well a more
chaotic lifestyle than I would like. So in many ways
I can totally resonate with that and I'm empathetic to.
Speaker 1 (41:18):
It, but.
Speaker 2 (41:20):
I also see the value of making the commitment, and
so the act of making the commitment is sort of
the thing. And then the follow through, and that's the
bit that I think is lacking in the vast majority
of organizations that you know you operate within, is you
have strategy, you have all these goals, you have these aspirations,
(41:40):
and then there is a real lack of follow through.
There's a lack of rigor there's a lack of discipline
that's required in order to follow through on the change process,
and so what you get is what you referred to,
which is regression. Now, the best thing about this is
that we can we deal with regression, and we deal
(42:01):
with it relentlessly in a firm and friendly way. But
it doesn't mean we don't deal with it. And that's
been the biggest problem, as I think everybody's so kind
to each other and prepared to let each other off
the hook, and actually that then becomes the worst thing
you can do for somebody else who's on a journey
(42:21):
of change. And this is something that you really taught me,
and it's actually been hugely beneficial. And again I'm now
reflecting and thinking this is an area I need to
get back to. But even in parenting, this idea that
with my children, you know, they say I really, I
really want to do this, and you go, or I
really or I'm going to do this, like, you know,
(42:43):
can we get a dog?
Speaker 1 (42:44):
Yes?
Speaker 3 (42:45):
Okay?
Speaker 2 (42:46):
Are you going to you know, make sure that you
feed and clean and take for walks and this, that
and the other. Of course, I am does it happen? No,
who's felt that?
Speaker 1 (42:57):
Well?
Speaker 2 (42:57):
I did not follow through on the statements that the
children made about what they said they were going to do.
Speaker 1 (43:05):
Instead, I took the easy way out and did it myself.
Speaker 3 (43:07):
Because let's go, let's texturize this. So let's stick with
the I want to get a dog. So you said there,
let some pick. So I'm not saying this is you Stu.
Let some pick. So Daddy, I want a dog. I'm
not your son, by the way, we're just playing that.
And Daddy says, oh, yes, but you need to feed, walk,
(43:28):
you know, and washing them. I say, oh, yes, I
will do that. This is the same as when we
first did that decade ago, the PDS coaching course where
you've got to go. We're going right I'm going to
practice five times a week before I see you. That's
the same exact kid going, oh, yeah, i'll walk so great,
So get your diary out. Then what do you mean, Well,
everyone's got a dire on a phone, kidder or you
might Okay, so you need to walk them before school
(43:51):
if we're going to do the walk, So what time
do you normally get up now to be ready in
the car or on the bike walking the school by
this time? Great? So therefore, how long does it take
to go for a walk with the dog? Oh, I'm
not sure where the dog walks. Oh, I'm not sure. Okay,
well we need to find that out. So let's find
that out. If they don't go and find that out,
(44:11):
there's no dog. So now they go and find that out.
And this is that patience and relent. Let's come back
and go all right, I've got to walk. It's trying
to show me Google maps. Great, So how long will
that take? So remember you've got to get you've got
to get ready first lead on the dog. Bang and
if it's a new dog might be pulling, etc. Oh,
it's going to take about forty five minutes, dad, Oh,
and picking up the poo. Where's the poo bag's going
(44:33):
to go in the bins? You know where the poo
bins are? Great, So we come back, So it's forty
five minutes. Who's feeding the dog? You said you were
going to feed the dog? Oh? Yeah, yeah, so who's
paying for that? Then?
Speaker 1 (44:42):
Oh?
Speaker 3 (44:43):
Is daddy paying for that? Okay? Great? So if you're
doing it, then how long is it going to take?
The feed? So so what's important? If they're feeding the dog,
I've got to make sure they vent to the bowl
and there's water afterwards. I can't leave and just throw
the food down. Okay, So now we're looking at ninety
minutes with calculated that it's ninety minutes more before you
go to school. So that means you're getting up at
(45:04):
seven normally. Now that means you need to get up
at five thirty every day Monday to Friday. So now
now we're taking the dream and we're making it real.
So now you've got a kid that might be going well,
(45:25):
I didn't think when I said yeah, I didn't realize
the level of detail and the timing that's going to
impact on my time. Oh maybe not want a dog
that much? So well, fine, but you let me know.
You let me know. Once we get to a point,
you go, right, I'm ready to commit to that. Now.
(45:45):
Once we get to the window where we've gone through
all that and you go, right now, Dad, I'm ready
to commit to remind me what you're ready to commit to?
They tell us again, Great, what if you don't what
permission are you giving me? If you don't do what
you said you're going to do? What? Well, I need
to support you and I need to honor you. But
it would be no good if you do it for
the first week and the second week you're going, oh, sorry,
(46:07):
I got up late, Dad, Can you do it? Because
that's not what we agreed. So if that happens, what
permission you're given me? Where's the impact of that? Okay? Well,
no PlayStation for Saturday? So that week, if you miss
a day for the whole Saturday, there's no game station
if that's something for them or okay, so whatever's relevant
(46:29):
obviously you know, etc. But what we've got to do is,
before we get to the yes and walk off, it's
all about, right, let's what does that actually look like?
What does that mean to you? What changes do you
need to make? Look at your schedule. Now, are you
ready to commit to that for how long? Sixteen seventeen
years if you get in a dog, maybe twenty years,
(46:51):
not just pupping now that adult dog training, et cetera,
et cetera. So that little thing where you've got a
kid saying dad can have a dog. You're going to
walk to them? Oh, yes, dad, feed them? Yes that
can you see the textual difference of raising awareness to well,
let's look at that right now before we get to
the agreement of dad says yes.
Speaker 2 (47:11):
Yeah, I mean one hundred percent. That resonates enormously with me.
And actually, the reason I started laughing is because obviously
so much of that brought to life for me, the
kinds of conversations that either did or didn't happen or
needed to happen. And yeah, and sometimes actually, by the way,
(47:36):
going back to your point about you know, is there
no PlayStation or is there this, that and the other?
What happens if they don't It's like you said, it's
agreeing with them. What the consequences of not following through are?
You know, it doesn't always have to be severe as
severe as a consequence as that it could. It could
just be you know, that they've got to then, yeah,
(47:58):
or or they've got a make up the time somewhere
else with a different role or something else that's got
to be done. But I'm using dog as an example,
like you know, I mean it's it doesn't have to
be as extreme as that, but yeah, I mean that
that whole idea of you know, anybody who says I
want to make a commitment to something, this notion that
(48:19):
you've put there, and actually this is something that I've
been real you really you introduced me years ago to
the grow model. I think it's Simon Whitmore created the
grow model, and I've sort of taken it a little
bit further.
Speaker 1 (48:28):
And called it now, call it the growth model, because
I had do.
Speaker 3 (48:32):
You remember I put an S on the end of grow.
Speaker 1 (48:35):
Remember that you did? Yeah?
Speaker 2 (48:38):
And that was strategy, wasn't it? S? So for those
who aren't versed in grow, goal reality options, way forward
or will and and then you had strategy I had.
I went for goal reality options, way forward, time bound
and help who can help you? Because I found that
(48:59):
people off the need to identify who will help them
on that journey. And that sort of speaks a little
bit to the agreement that you would find with the
person who would make that move forward.
Speaker 1 (49:10):
Right and then but with with.
Speaker 2 (49:12):
With grow and this notion of reality. That's the biggest thing,
the strongest thing, the most powerful element. Is anybody says
I want to do this or I want to achieve that,
and and that is purely and simply a wish or
a dream until you've explored the realities of what it
will take to achieve that dream in whatever time frame.
(49:36):
And when you go through that reality process with people,
they then begin to think about, Okay, well is this realist?
Is this a realistic goal? A? Do I really want it? B?
If I do really want it, maybe I have to
reframe my timeframes. Maybe I have to reframe, you know,
kind of how it's going to materialize for me. Maybe
(49:57):
I'm going to have to reframe the the energy that
it's going to require, and all those sorts of things.
Speaker 3 (50:03):
You know.
Speaker 2 (50:03):
So and I find so much people's aspirations are just
so so far removed from their actual reality that even
just that process of exploring what that means for them
in reality is enormously powerful, because no one's ever done that.
Speaker 3 (50:23):
And we're back to that final point. You've just mentioned there, Stuart,
we've got two options. I'm sure there's variance of the two,
but the two options is is, once someone said, right,
I want to achieve this, I want to get here,
we get into that detailing, Okay, what's that going to take?
For how long? Let's look at the logistics of that.
So what we and often it's a lot of sacrifice.
Often it's if this is important to you, what do
(50:44):
you need to change? Sometimes it's not sacrificing not seeing
your friends going no, I prefer to do this, but
you've got to say, you know, where is it for
how long? Now? Often the other option that we haven't
discussed is that point of now they're looking at it
says no, honestly in reality. Now you've pulled me back
to reality. For all my excitement like preseason teams and businesses,
(51:05):
we're going to do this the vision right reality time
are you willing to connect to And then when you
say no, I said, okay, so let's look at resetting
the goal. Because if we reset the goal, then oh
that's achievable. So it might take years later. Or what
we're doing is we're preventing false expectations and I do
this with a lot of coaches, and this is sliding
(51:27):
into something slightly different, but a lot of coaches get
caught up in a performance and the result they want
to see in a live match, whether that's five six
year olds playing or elite performers, and their expectation is
so pine, a sky faalse, something they've never seen on
the pitch in practice under pressure. And also we can't
replicate the opposition skills. They just expect it because they've
(51:49):
done a few drills, a few games and they go
and all of a sudden, now they're getting annoyed, wound up,
and then after the match really frustrated because well, we
didn't win or we didn't perform, And he's saying, well,
when are they ever performed at the level of your expectation?
So could it be you're setting a bar that the
athletes are not ready for yet. And then we're looking
at where's the source of the breakdown? Well, let's invest
(52:11):
there patiently, relentlessly. So often it's once we get that
reality and take the not to shut down enthusiasm, but
to add realism to commitment, which is the discipline between
disciline and motivation is understanding. Sometimes we need to adjust
the bar. But it's got to be a mutual dialogue.
It can't be an autocratic I'm telling you this is
where the quality of the dialogue comes in.
Speaker 2 (52:34):
Yes, this is This is a very very good, welcome
reminder for many of the principles that have regressed in
my own life.
Right then.
Speaker 2 (00:02):
Exciting new project, a new collaboration. One of the benefits
of me now working outside of sort of a formal
employment structure, I suppose is we're able to reconnect with people.
And the good news is that I've been able to
reconnect with a massive influence on my career, life, parenting, relationships, coach, coaching.
Speaker 1 (00:34):
So this is a new.
Speaker 2 (00:38):
Series I suppose that Marke and I are embarking on
which we have loosely entitled, but maybe we haven't loosely
We're going to stick with it, which is it depends
or does it where we're going to unpick many of
the areas sort of underpinning performance coaching, coach to development,
(01:01):
people development, things like you know, management, all those sorts
of things, just but really reinvestigating some of the dynamics
and bringing to life some of the dynamics around working
working using the PDS framework and also just how we
can then graph that on from a practical perspective and
(01:22):
its applications. Anyway, Mark, welcome, and I'm excited.
Speaker 3 (01:30):
We could say twenty plus years in the making, couldn't
we really in the golf those decades ago?
Speaker 1 (01:41):
Yeah, we could, we could.
Speaker 2 (01:42):
It's the collaboration that every that that there's been meant
to be but has never actually materialized, right, So that
we've got a number of things to talk about. But
I guess just the starting point, I suppose maybe if
I just say to you, like where the sort of
genesis of this idea has come from, because it is
(02:04):
a little bit not entirely your brain child, but it's
certainly something that you know you've conceived of, and then
we can then sort of do that sort of intro
and then we can lead into sort of our subject
matter for the day.
Speaker 3 (02:15):
Yes, So in essence, obviously you and I have known
each other for decades now from the golf and through
the journey of your different roles. The challenge has always
been is you've been employed by an organization and with
that come responsibility in certain filters and also time and commitment.
So when when I found out you left to go freelance,
(02:40):
I just thought, well, this is a great opportunity. I've
been on your podcast I think equaling amount of times
unless someone's trumped me now, But the challenge with the
podcasts are it's a one off and obviously you have
many different guests. So I thought, now we're in that position.
We've got so much experience of challenges but also solutions
(03:04):
in business in the sport world is to have and
I know we said we'll start our fortnightly, then we
can see where we go. Something that links, something that
sinks something. We can have some fundamental headings to guide
us through, to allow us to discuss things in the news,
discuss things that through your own journey, Stuart, which we
(03:24):
talk about in the members earlier, which numbers area which
we're going to, but also some real tangible tools for
performance coaches, athletes, managers, performance directors, business, but also then
for the community coach, business manager, organizer. So each couple
of weeks we've got something that connects to the last
it's not just a one off. And also having an
(03:46):
opportunity for people to listen to this comment and ask questions,
and then the following fortnite actually we can answer those
key questions and potentially shuffle the content to have that
as discussion for the next two weeks and also linked
with elements in the news. So for me, I thought
it was a great opportunity to have a flow and
(04:07):
the whole point of all the passion I have in
people development, and I know with yourself is not a
one off hit. It's what can we do where someone
can go somewhere and say when I listen to that,
I mean they're going to come away with questions. I
can research, come out with some strategies that is going
to I can commit to and explore, or actually just
connect me back to the real world, connect me back
(04:29):
to actually somebody gets it. Somebody is living my nightmare
or living my dream, which we know within management and
coaching we get a mix of those each week.
Speaker 2 (04:41):
Yeah, And I think, from my perspective, it's an opportunity
I think to revisit some of the areas. And I
guess selfishly to a certain extent, I guess I'm playing
the role as the role of learner in some respects
because as much as I've been a student and disciple
(05:02):
of much of you know, your your approach, teaching, et cetera,
et cetera, and applied it, one of the things that
I'm aware of is that I've I guess, I've sort
of never really been able to fully kind of integrate.
So we've often joked in the past that you know,
(05:24):
you know, I'm if I had a karate belt, a
PDS karate belt, where would I be? You know, am
I a yellow belt or a brown belt or wherever
it is? And I guess this is a journey for
me to sort of finally, I guess, achieve try and
achieve my black belt by revisiting to a certain extent,
sort of many of the principles, most of which I
may have forgotten because I've sort of dipped in and
out and dipped in and out.
Speaker 1 (05:45):
So this is a deep dive for me, and so.
Speaker 2 (05:47):
I'm going to be asking many of the kind of
I guess, the stupid questions and revisiting some of those things,
but equally trying as well to maybe graph those on
to sort of different contexts that I operate with in
and sort of talk about what application might be in
some of these different contexts. And we do intend as
much as we'd be talking about the sports context, we'll
also be talking about a business context. We'll be talking
(06:11):
about maybe educational environments. We'll be talking about you know,
kind of adult to adult learning scenarios and all of
those different dimensions as well. So you know, because obviously
much of that is stuff I did on a day
to day basis, So it's probably worth just mentioning that
there's a you know, I guess I'm a bit of
a guinea pig on the journey as far as it
is concerned.
Speaker 3 (06:33):
And that's linking into one of the elements we're going
to do is obviously you've the members area, which is
my one hundred and fifty plus hours of resources. Now
you've actually started to go through the full journey starting
intotorial one. So each of the fortnights we're going to
actually and that's when people may see that haven't. The
challenge at Mark is to actually go through and psydeka,
(06:54):
what have you learned there? What are you doing with
what you've learned, and actually share your challenges and difficulties
of the applying new skill thinking in a different way
when everything is pulling you back to your old way.
So I think that's going to be really useful as
a step journey. Okay, what have you done with what
you've learned? You know, and where are the obstacles and
(07:14):
you know what's resonated with you. I think that can
help connect a lot of people. But as you say,
apart from this verse one, which obviously we're explaining it
we can really get stuck in straight away. You know
what is it we're talking about this this session. What's tangible?
Where the real world challenges? And I think where we
I think we'll sink quite well, because in general, if
(07:35):
we if we looked at it, Okay, what's the big
difference between you and I is you're in the big
picture philosophy, design, development pathway. So many decades experienced within
that at the high level, whereas I've been, although obviously
I connect with a lot of that, a lot of
my work is on the shop floor with the performance director,
(07:57):
with the head coach, with the senior boss, dealing with
the day to day challenges of implementing change within an organization.
So I think coming together you can share that big picture,
we can lick the tangibles, and then I can really
come into well, here's a here's a common challenge, but
here's some strategies and solutions or actually sometimes it isn't
one off answer. Sometimes is look, you got to You've
(08:19):
got to walk through the mud to come out the
other end. It is not going to look nice for
maybe months before you get to the outcomes you're looking for.
Speaker 2 (08:28):
Yeah, and that also reminded me of something as well,
which is that we're very much working in the open here,
and this is an exploration. The other dimension to this
as well is one of the things that we've talked
about doing a little bit is yes, mapping onto different
(08:49):
context and environments. But also, you know, my journey with
PDS has been one where you know, it's been a
companion to me very much like if you think of
the outrigger on an outrigger canoe. You know, it's the
sort of thing that keeps the stability. But at the
same time, you know where the directions that I've been
paddling in have taken me in different directions. So of
(09:11):
course one of the areas that I've become extremely kind
of I've got very focused on and you know, just
done a lot of personal discovery and have been utilizing
in application is this area of ecological dynamics and sort
of the impact of that from a perspective of developing
(09:33):
skill learning, learning and development and all those sorts of areas.
And I suppose this is partly going to be an
expiration of where we can see where the kind of
the interfaces and the overlap is. I actually think there
is lots and I actually think that PDS offers a
really strong foundation. It was probably the one of the
(09:57):
things that helped me have a jumping off point into
the world of ecological dynamics, because it meant I reconceptualized learning,
I reconceptualized human performance and all those sorts of things,
and it was probably a real grounding in placing humans
at the center of the learning experience, or the learner
at the center of the experience, whether that's coach, athlete,
or whoever, which then made it very easy for me
(10:18):
to sort of graft onto ideas around things like ecological dynamics,
which is again very much a sort of human centered,
environment centered thing. So there's an intention to try and
sort of map those two things together.
Speaker 1 (10:32):
The final thing, I'd say as well.
Speaker 2 (10:34):
Format wise, obviously we're recording this one and probably the
first few just to get used to new platforms and
different ways of doing things. But the platform we're using
is has a feature that will enable us to do
some stuff live, so it may be that periodically down
the track we do these as live streams as a
bit of a kind of lunch and learn type of thing,
because we intend to try and record at the same
(10:54):
time each week roughly lunchtime, which will enable them people
to interact. So after they heard two or three of
the sessions, it may be the questions emerging and they
can kind of join us and be part of the conversation,
you know, from the live stream perspective, which would be
going out by various different social channels.
Speaker 3 (11:13):
And that links back to the title, really doesn't it,
which was a bit of a cheeky one but kind
of resonated in a humorous way. Is from from my side,
I think, and this is where we can be raw
here because we're not employed by anybody ourselves, is I think.
And I know we've had discussions about it, and I've
had discussions from people that almost have become other sides,
(11:36):
you know, are you them or are you us? Kind
of thing as opposed to that we're all together. It's
just breaking down the barriers, and I think of understanding.
So a success for me during this as well would
be anything, whether it's ecological dynamics or any coaching styles,
irrelevant philosophies, is we make it in a way where
people can understand. But what does that look like in
(11:58):
my world? How can I understand it? How can I
synergize it and how do I understand? A lot of
this is down to judgment once you're making informed choices
linked to That's why I call my work is need
CENTERCE is LinkedIn, well, where's your lighthouse? So it's not
about getting success in this next ten minutes or hour.
It may be getting success in six months, But what
(12:19):
do you need to do now? Now you know what
your outcome end state is? And I think that's where
if we can break those barriers down where somebody isn't
an academic and I know you and I are not academics,
is someone could say, oh, I now know what that means,
and I know now how I can add that to
what I already do. And could it be now I'm
seeing things in a different way, I may change more
(12:40):
because now I understand it better.
Speaker 2 (12:44):
Yeah, that's that's definitely, definitely true, and it's probably worth mentioning.
You know that from a methodological perspective, we're fairly agnostic,
you know, so if somebody is a particular devotee of
a particular delivery method, that's fine. You know, that's not
necessarily the point of this. The point is I have
my own sort of I guess sort of theoretical and
(13:04):
philosophical underpinnings that basically are which are central to my practice.
But PDS is entirely compatible with that. There is no
there's no kind of dilemma, or if there is, then
actually that's something we need to like unpick and have
a conversation about and see whether that there is incompatibilities
or whether that whether that actually grafts on or not.
Speaker 3 (13:27):
One shall I share our titles that we may change
because we're organic, but we're sticking with at the moment
for every two weeks. Obviously, this one's a bit of
a lengthier intro. So we have gone for and I'm
not sure if your technology we have a screenshot this
in Stuart or not within this once the record, but
we have the first bit is any element from the
(13:50):
news that we're can discuss relevant that's hits social media,
that's caused a bit of a disagreement or a highlighted element.
An example might be when the the manager of football
is asked to leave and now they're looking for a
new recruit as opposed to finding one earlier. Those type discussions.
Then we're going to go into a members area highlights,
so you're going through the journey Stewart, So this will
(14:12):
be great because you're going through with the coach. I
am an active coach and this is a journey I'm
going through, so we can discuss certain chapters, something you
may not understand, something you're finding difficult, or something you've
now committed to, so it's a journey. Then we're going
to talk about a performance tip, so we're going to
discuss something that's relevant to the elite performance, whether that's
in business or sport. And then we're going to have
(14:35):
a community tip, so that is more something that is
more for grassroots or in a community type situation where
we're saying, actually, you know, we haven't got the high
performance attitudes, but actually we struggle with engagement. Whether it
may be we can share a tip there. And then
the last bit is just what's coming up, so looking
forward to what we're going to do or what's coming
up in the next a few weeks. Within the first element,
(14:58):
we're also on that intro, we're going to look at
answering the questions that you guys listening may put in
and when we're live, obviously we can do that dynamically
and actually some of your questions may impact the performance
and the community tips when we plan ahead. So the
more feedback you give us, the more we can make
(15:19):
this as valuable to you listening or watching as we can.
If we want to make it real, we want to
make it actually there's things you can take away and
when you've finished, it's going to have an impact on
your behaviors, even in your thinking, your action, or your exploration.
That that is success for us.
Speaker 2 (15:37):
There you go, that's that's definitely it. I'm just going
to put this onto the ticker so that people can
see what our format is going to be. It's going
to scroll across the screen in you course show it
should come through. There you go, things you've seen in
the news, how this relates to elements of BDS, some
top tips related stuff, and then some questions from the
(15:58):
audience going forward? Summary or have I oversimplified?
Speaker 1 (16:02):
Yeah?
Speaker 2 (16:03):
We like simple, great, so as we So okay, well
start us off, then, Mark, let's get let's get into
the weeds.
Speaker 3 (16:14):
So you did share a link with me? Do you
want to start with that?
Speaker 1 (16:21):
Well?
Speaker 2 (16:21):
Yes, So my first starting point, I suppose was as
I was exploring various different things, there was a link
that I saw from an ex Olympian and speaker called
kath Bishop, and this was on LinkedIn who had done
(16:46):
a post and it was in response to a post
from an organization that I got to know a little
bit when I was at Sport England actually called the
True Athlete Project, and the True Athlete Project very much
as sort of calling for change in particularly high performance sport,
but I think also across sport, and I actually had
(17:07):
one of their founders, a guy called Lawrence Casso Halsted,
who was an ex Olympic fencer who had written a
book called The True Athlete Project Book. And in the
book there was a lot of stuff about talking about
a different set of ideals around sport that were different
from the traditional ones which are around you know, things
(17:28):
like hard work and dedication and commitment and sacrifice and
these sorts of things, and they were going for something
that was much more about flourishing and you know kind
of people exploring. And then so they posted this notion
of this idea of what does winning well look like?
And then Bishop had sort of shared that and was
talking about the way that sport was almostgoing undergoing a
(17:50):
little bit of a reappraisal and needs to go through
a bit of a reappraisal as it begins to explore,
you know, how we can work together. And the bit
that I was particularly interested in and obviously relates to
our subject matter, is if we talk about this notion
of winning well, which might be oxymoronic, but anyway, we
(18:13):
can explore that in itself. There's this whole idea and
one of the ideas of sort of working from a
values led perspective, which I think is similar to the
needs led perspective, but we can explore the differences. But
one of the things I talk about is the idea
of having coaches that are and our quote this, that
are aligned and connected to the holistic vision and their
(18:34):
role as social change makers. Now, I think that maps
on really closely and it resonates very very strongly with
a lot of the ideas. But I think it begs
a question. It begs a question of how does one
do that? Because one of the things that we know
is there is I think a lot of cultural problems
(18:56):
within the world of coaching and coach education and coach
development that don't necessarily connect the dots as far as
what does it take to be, you know, to go
from just a broad, glib statement to something that's actually
practical and real and actually manifests on the ground. This
(19:16):
idea that you know, being aligned and connected to the
holistic vision and their role as social change makers. I mean,
the very notion of a holistic vision. I am not
sure that exists in many contexts, and I would say
that your experiences of working across the entire gamut of
sort of environments elites for community, sport, schools, business contexts,
(19:43):
I would argue that probably and you can tell me
if I'm wrong here. One of the things I imagine
you would see is common is that this notion of
being aligned and connected to this so called holistic vision,
there isn't a holistic vision, and therefore how can you
be aligned and connected to So that's actually probably one
of the underpinnings anyway. So that's kind of our opener. Really,
(20:04):
it's an interesting thought process. It was something that's I
think very relevant for the moment in time around. I
think sport itself in particular is going through this cultural reappraisal.
What is the purpose of sport? What is the role
of sport in society? And rather than thinking, you know,
what ways can we get more people doing sport. What
we're actually saying is how can we make sport relevant
(20:27):
to people and make it mean something.
Speaker 1 (20:29):
For them in their wider lives.
Speaker 2 (20:32):
And that's just an interesting challenge I think for the
sports sector, and I think definitely maps on I note
to much a lot of your teachings.
Speaker 3 (20:39):
I think the biggest challenge is if I use just
that saying yes but so that pretty much covers nine
to nine point nine percent of people that in a
room at the beginning of a season or a business
organization where they're going, right, this is who we want
to be, they say it, but there's caveats the butt.
So in sports as an exile, yes, you know, we're
(21:01):
really going to work on developing people, but we still
need to win. So as soon as you hear the
butt we still need to win that two things jump
out at me. One is, well, why do you think
they're different? Because we can't guarantee winning unless you're somebody
that can buy the best athletes in et cetera. And
you know, the stuff that none of us really can
do is thinking they're different, thinking that if we don't
(21:26):
develop software and hardware in people in interdependency, unless for
some extreme and maybe a sport I've never worked with,
and I've worked with over thirty that actually is so individual.
You don't even have anyone with you. I mean everyone's
got from shooting to gold. There are people around you
that help you perform, but it's the interdependency of understanding. Okay,
(21:47):
So it's not about a philosophy, it's not about a
you know, are we going to do this? It's actually
saying you know that. I call it the lighthouse. But
if we're saying there's a governing body or an organization saying, right,
if we say this is who we are, what success
look like, what success look like this year, and what
success looked like for the next five, ten years, and
(22:08):
once we know what the success looks like, and not
just big pictures, what that look like for the cleaner,
what would that look like for the people that cleans
the uniforms, the players, the coaches, the managers, the accountant,
the treasurer. You know, this is if we're saying to behaviors,
we can't have contradictions in here. But then are we
saying are we prepared once we know what that looks
(22:30):
like to look within ourselves and identify what are my
daily behaviors I need within my role? What do they
look like? And we put the UA's against and what
would be unacceptable, acceptable, exceptional? What do I need to
be better at or continue to do with any data
pass to somebody else above me, left or right below me?
That could be accountant, a manager, a player, a parent,
(22:53):
doesn't matter. So then what I've got to do is say, well,
I need to spend time now to understand if I'm
passing data and when I say to information interaction, whether
that's for an email or voice or product. Is what
I'm saying, is I need to understand when you receive
information from me, is it useful? Do you understand it?
And is it fit for purpose? Let me understand so
(23:15):
I can empathize your challenges and your needs and when
they do it the other way round. Okay, So when
I'm past it, i'm receiving information, I want the person
that's sending it to ask me the same questions. So
now I'm saying, Okay, now I recognize who I need
to be aligned to that lighthouse. Now I recognize how
I need to interact better and the obstacles to break
down to anyone I'm interacting with interdependently. It's the same
(23:39):
for athletes on a picture of court. Once I understand that,
we say, okay, so what are the changes we need
to make. Now here's where the difficult part happens. We
need to prioritize it, so we're not going to change
everything straight away. But what is the number one? Once
I know the number one, I explicitly impact that as
a work on that trumps everything else, barring safety, so
(24:00):
long as it's aligned to the lighthouse. And then we
share with everyone of influence, this is what I need
to change. This is why, this is what it looks like.
These are the permissions I'm giving you. So if I'm not,
you can say this to me and I'm giving you
permission to do that. And these are the what if
So if this happened, you can do this. If this happens,
I'm going to let you know here. I know, even
(24:20):
with our brief interaction of setting this up, we had
that agreement where we say, okay, so let's agree to
reply to each other in this amount of time. If
we say we're going to do something, we commit to
it within the date and timeline. If we don't, as
soon as we know out of our control, we let
the other person know and then we honor these elements.
So until we do that, and then we say, right,
how long is it going to take to change? That's
(24:42):
a pie in the sky. So we say, let's review
in four weeks. So each week, I mean, I put
loads of adherence frameworks and we could talk about that
word at Stuart, but the frameworks that allow us to
commit to what we said we're going to do, and
the support around that itself and others. So there's lots
of things to allow to keep it top of our head.
But that's a brief level of the level of commitment
(25:05):
we need to support change, and we can't compromise and say,
hang on, we lost this week. Oh no, no, I
need to go back to the instruction or to tell
you or doing what we need to do the quick fix,
because a quick fix will just be a barrier to
the change we've now agreed we need to make. And
they're normally three four year plan Stewart, they're not normally
(25:25):
a season plan. And if you look at the great
teams in the world, you can look at Formula one,
you look at premiership football, rugby, hockey, NBA, No one's
at the top forever. But what there are is you
see this growth of change. I would say of look
at potentially at Williams F one in the next three years.
You watch how they will develop, I believe based on
(25:46):
the personalities of bringing in and the work they're doing.
So what we've got to understand is to stay at
the top is very rare. But what we also need
to say is generally it takes three four years to
build the culture and the behaviors we need within the
people we have and then recruit the right people in
and know who that is and how do I assess
that not on an interview, and also have the courage
(26:08):
to say, I use that old saying Stuart, change the
coach or change the coach to say, if I'm doing
everything I can, once we're agreeing in this organization, the
change the behaviors I know you need to make and
you're still not deciding to make them, then I'm going
to move you on. Either find the right job for
you that fits your role, or just say thanks, but
(26:29):
you're not for us, and have the courage to do that,
but don't compromise what you've now said. Whether we call
it philosophy or away, it doesn't matter. That's a level
of due diligence and clarity we need with everyone of
influence from the beginning, and that patience to develop and
discover and then the commitment cycle of reviewing every four
weeks and not changing it because of an outcome. And
(26:51):
that's why generally businesses and sports do not make the
change they need. And you see in top sports you
and business often it's or just fire the coach, the
manager and get someone else in and hopefully that's the answer.
And generally it's not generally that there's a bit of
luck involved. If that you're going to ripple and then
it dips again. But generally it's the people who are recruiting.
(27:11):
The people of influence at the very top need to
understand what we've just discussed here and understand. Am I
willing to do it? Am I willing to commit to it?
Am I willing to share this shareholders? Stakeholders, Look, we're
looking at a three year change plan, but this is
what you're likely to see, so maybe a dip in outcome,
but these are the performance markers I can share with you,
and behaviors in judgment, decision making, that I can review
(27:35):
with you every eight weeks whatever we agree, so you
can see we're on the right path. And that's a
snapshot Stewart of why those discussions are often not successful
in application.
Speaker 1 (27:48):
So there's a lot to unpack there.
Speaker 2 (27:52):
One of the things I was just going to start on, though,
is I think the point you make is a really
interesting one. It's one that I've talked about a lot
for which is this notion of you know.
Speaker 1 (28:02):
They just say fire the coach.
Speaker 2 (28:03):
I think I think in elite context that's probably true,
which the assumption is that just a change of leadership
will magically fix what might be actually sort of systemic
cultural problems within the organizations hierarchy. And I've noticed something
about elite sport organizations, which is the ones that seem
to have sustainable success. And by the way, success is
(28:26):
a relative measure because of sometimes you have sports organizations
that they, you know, not getting relegated might be success
because of the resources that they've got and what have you,
or you know, whatever it might be, or you know,
at a particular performance level. So but interestingly, and I
think that so I think the ones that have success
(28:47):
are the ones that I think have a sort of
a philosophical and a cultural framework that's sort of embedded
within the organization. And what they tend to do is
they'll recruit leaders who map onto that philosophical for all,
that sort of ideological framework, rather than assume that the
(29:08):
leader will bring a new way of operating in and
magically transform the organization. And by the way, those leaders
aren't those coaches aren't necessarily like the leaders of the
whole organization. What they are are you know, they're talismanic
and they have a role to play, but they can't
necessarily run the rest of the business. And so that's
a major challenge. But lower down when it comes to
(29:30):
sort of like pathways and practitioners coaches in this case
working in pathways, what I've noticed is almost sort of
the opposite, which is organizations they're quite happy to have
they develop athlete curricula or development frameworks or talent development
(29:50):
frameworks or whatever it might be, and they in the
best cases use those talent development frameworks as a mechanism
by which to determ demine whether an individual should enter
a talent pathway, progress in a talent pathway, or be
essentially removed from the talent pathway, de selected or not
(30:12):
selected into the next round or the next phase, or
whatever it might be. So they have a very clear
expectation on athlete in terms of what's required to be
in the system, and they obviously have to make those
decisions because they can't have there's a limited space and
they can't resource all the athletes that they would want
to as much as they'd like to. But when it
(30:32):
comes to coaches, there's nothing like the same rigor, so
they don't even necessarily ask the coaches to adhere to
the talent development pathway and to work within that curriculum
framework to a certain extent, often leave the coaches to
their own devices to sort of do whatever it is
that they want, which is interesting. They don't necessarily recruit
(30:56):
those coaches based on their how well versed they are
in that framework and the curricula that they've developed and
the sort of culture of that and how what that
means from a behavioral standpoint. They don't necessarily create, you know,
kind of a job description person specification that you would
recruit against that maps against that, and they don't have
(31:17):
a clear idea of what the behavior's skills knowledge for
an individual would be in order to be able to
perform these various roles within the tealentpathway. And these people
have enormous sway over the futures of you know, young
individuals who are exploring and progressing within this sort of domain,
(31:38):
and there and can, as a result of that, act
in ways which aren't aligned to the organization's goals, and
then that creates conflict difficulty, it can sometimes be quite
harmful from an athlete perspective.
Speaker 3 (31:54):
And so.
Speaker 2 (31:56):
This notion of having this articulation of what a practitioner
should act, how they should act, how they should be,
how they should go about their work, it doesn't exist.
And as a result of that, because it doesn't exist,
if there is sometimes a requirement for removal or for
(32:19):
a conversation that is difficult because that individual isn't necessarily
aligned philosophically with the wider aspirations of the organization, those
are avoided and therefore those individuals don't necessarily have the
change the coach or change the coach conversations that could
exist because of a real lack of clarity of expectation.
(32:39):
And so, going back to that sort of framing that
you're putting, there is that One of the things I
think about PDS is we just get clear on what's expected,
you know, And I think we ask coaches to do
this with athletes, about being clear of expectation, and we
actually ask the athlete to be clear about their own expectations.
I'm getting into the thing of it, but we can
come back to this, be clear about what their own
expectations for themselves are as a starting point. We don't
(33:03):
really do that with practitioners. It's almost like we're afraid
to because I don't know why, but they tend to be.
So we don't seem to be holding coaches and practitioners
to the same holding them accountable to standards, even standards
they've established for themselves, in the same way we are
with athletes. So we deselect athletes very readily. We don't
deselect coaches if those coaches are not acting in accordance
(33:24):
with agreed sets of parameters, largely because those parameters don't
always exist.
Speaker 3 (33:30):
As if there's so much to unpick there and I'm
not going to be able to pick all of it.
But going back to the very initially when you start
that conversation is yes, capability is massive, but what people
need to understand how to measure individual capability and not
have pine a sky false expectations of that results biased.
So that's one element that understanding your outcome will be
(33:53):
based on your capability, But do you know the capability
within each person and importantly self, do you know the
source any breakdown of capability and then interventions and support
to support that change, which is where my action review
process helps in business and sport. The other elements that
you're talking about there is that that element of words
to action. So I know it's used often in Formula
(34:16):
one within their bosses. But that point of right, you've
said you're going to do it, and I know it's
big with in PDS. It has been through the beginning
is show me, don't tell me. Show me. And this
is a point you made which is huge and I
see this so often in football academies, in business at
community level is once we agree we're going to do something,
(34:37):
and you're the person who's the influence of those people
underneath you and next to you're on above, and you've
agreed permissions and you've made sure there's clarity there. You've
eliminated the gray which most people do not do is
then you have to follow through if someone is unacceptable
based on what they said they were going to do,
based on their capability. And this is where it falls
down because, as you say, in business and in sport
(35:00):
unity organization schools, what often happens is people go away
and they get caught up in their normal work and
they're back to what they normally do and then they
slip up. Now sometimes it's just forgotten, which is fair
because it's new. So you put in interventions that aren't aggressive,
but there's an intervention strategy of reflection. And often it's
because they've said they're going to do it, but they're
(35:21):
so used to not committing to any of these initiatives
because there's a new one in two weeks that they
go there's no point because you'll just come up with
something else in two weeks and what's the next fad fashion,
So they don't commit to it because I don't believe
in the change. We've done it all before. Oh we've
tried everything, and they've accepted their mediocrity of where they
are and they're not willing to change because they don't
(35:42):
believe that it's going to be sustainable. So this is
where when we set this up, we've got to make
sure that people setting up are willing to commit to
the ugly of people aggressing and be confident to know
how can I manage my state? What intervention have I've
got to have that conversation and be confident when we
lead the conversation that it's not an ugly walk away.
(36:05):
Actually we've agreed something. They are keeping ownership. I am
not micromanaging them, but we're doing it early enough so
it doesn't start to get to a point where it's
lost now and then we have an emotional interaction with them,
which again you're at a loss there. So I think
back to the change is we need to know what
it looks like. Everyone needs to buy into the value.
(36:27):
They don't have to like it, but buy into the value,
put some years around it, within self role and others.
What does that actually look like? And the problem with
philosophy often is it's a bit pie in the sky,
but what does that look like to us? What does
that look like to you and us? And our interaction
agreed er missions. But then the biggest challenges committing to it.
I don't think I would say the most successful of
(36:48):
it was easiest for me, I'd say is Ebo Soccer Stewart,
which you've seen their videos as plenty in the members area.
I'd say they were They've been the best that can
in to change. There's been obstacles, you know, there's sometimes
I regressed a bit, sometimes it's forgot, but actually one
check and they're back on it. I'd say most organizations.
(37:09):
My biggest challenge is people don't commit to what they
say they're going to and people leave it in the organization.
They leave it and then they wait for me to
come and go, oh, Mark, well, you know we've had
an issue and so we'll remind me what we agreed
for you being a manager and a mentor. Yeah, but
I was a bit uncomfortable. You know, he's a strong personality.
He she's been there for years. Says well, if you
don't have that intervention, you're now not honoring what you agree.
(37:32):
So now you're the one that's unacceptable. And it's building
that confidence to do it, but also it's knowing how
to do it, having a framework that makes it easy
for you to go right. I've got a strategy now,
and I'm going to do it early, and then I'm
going to scan for the change. So I've used that
in a sports context of an intervention. Imagine on a
picture of court and you've just pulled a player over
(37:55):
an athlete, or a timeout. As a group, you've agreed something,
or you've whatever it may be, and then you go
out again. What often happens is the coach then is
looking for the play. They're looking for what's happening next,
But what they're not looking for is hang on, we've
just agreed, we're going to do this. Let me scan
for are you committing to what we agreed, and not
look for other stuff. Not get caught up in scanning
(38:17):
the rest. And if it's a no, we're looking for
as anyone else spotted it. That's where our rule of
three comes in. Is a peer itself? Have they regulated?
If not as a peer, no, Now I need to
choose an intervention because now we're not committing to what
we said. So the intervention again using ARP. So it's
this cycle of we know. The high probability is is
(38:39):
once we agree something as an organizational change, it won't
go swimmingly. It will not commit to action. There will
be dips, people will forget it, will regress it will
go back. So it's being ready for that and know
what interventions are going in place to reduce it. But
then what interventions about got in place, so when it
does happen, I've got the strategy and I will commit
to the stratus relentlessly, patiently for months and years, not
(39:04):
for a couple of weeks. And again we're going back
into that point of we're understanding personalities, especially with strong ones.
Sometimes people will avoid those conversations, but actually it would
be unacceptable to avoid it if it's pre agreed. If
we don't pre agree it, then it becomes very difficult.
But if we pre agreed it with that person, then
it becomes a lot easier. And that's that pre agreement
(39:27):
of clarity we talked about, Stuart.
Speaker 1 (39:31):
Yeah, I mean again, what's to unpick there.
Speaker 2 (39:34):
And we're touching on some things that we're probably going
to get into much more detail about a little bit
later on in future conversations, particularly things when we start
to talk about interventions like all of three or arp
of various things like that. One other thing I wanted
to just pick with you a little bit was in
your sort of opening monologue, you talked about this notion
of yes, But I'm want to circle back to that
(39:57):
because I think that's that's probably the you said. I
think you've said something like ninety nine percent of people
say something to you along those lines.
Speaker 1 (40:06):
Yes, But and that really kind of stuck with me
because I think that is.
Speaker 2 (40:16):
Speak to this point about a journey of change, you know, like,
what do we want change? When do we want it
after an appropriate period of reflection and when everything's right
in terms of our world. Well that's the point, isn't it.
People are often very very keen to bring about change,
but very very unwilling to do what it takes to
(40:40):
bring the change about. And I'll hold my hand up.
You know, I'm as guilty as anybody you know embarking
on this journey. You know, you absolutely live the philosophy,
and it's in every time philosophy, not some time philosophy,
and it's you know, let's establish the kind of rules
of engagement, so to speak, from the game go, you know,
(41:01):
and honoring those rules, you know, is hard for somebody
like me that has a fairly chaotic, well a more
chaotic lifestyle than I would like. So in many ways
I can totally resonate with that and I'm empathetic to.
Speaker 1 (41:18):
It, but.
Speaker 2 (41:20):
I also see the value of making the commitment, and
so the act of making the commitment is sort of
the thing. And then the follow through, and that's the
bit that I think is lacking in the vast majority
of organizations that you know you operate within, is you
have strategy, you have all these goals, you have these aspirations,
(41:40):
and then there is a real lack of follow through.
There's a lack of rigor there's a lack of discipline
that's required in order to follow through on the change process,
and so what you get is what you referred to,
which is regression. Now, the best thing about this is
that we can we deal with regression, and we deal
(42:01):
with it relentlessly in a firm and friendly way. But
it doesn't mean we don't deal with it. And that's
been the biggest problem, as I think everybody's so kind
to each other and prepared to let each other off
the hook, and actually that then becomes the worst thing
you can do for somebody else who's on a journey
(42:21):
of change. And this is something that you really taught me,
and it's actually been hugely beneficial. And again I'm now
reflecting and thinking this is an area I need to
get back to. But even in parenting, this idea that
with my children, you know, they say I really, I
really want to do this, and you go, or I
really or I'm going to do this, like, you know,
(42:43):
can we get a dog?
Speaker 1 (42:44):
Yes?
Speaker 3 (42:45):
Okay?
Speaker 2 (42:46):
Are you going to you know, make sure that you
feed and clean and take for walks and this, that
and the other. Of course, I am does it happen? No,
who's felt that?
Speaker 1 (42:57):
Well?
Speaker 2 (42:57):
I did not follow through on the statements that the
children made about what they said they were going to do.
Speaker 1 (43:05):
Instead, I took the easy way out and did it myself.
Speaker 3 (43:07):
Because let's go, let's texturize this. So let's stick with
the I want to get a dog. So you said there,
let some pick. So I'm not saying this is you Stu.
Let some pick. So Daddy, I want a dog. I'm
not your son, by the way, we're just playing that.
And Daddy says, oh, yes, but you need to feed, walk,
(43:28):
you know, and washing them. I say, oh, yes, I
will do that. This is the same as when we
first did that decade ago, the PDS coaching course where
you've got to go. We're going right I'm going to
practice five times a week before I see you. That's
the same exact kid going, oh, yeah, i'll walk so great,
So get your diary out. Then what do you mean, Well,
everyone's got a dire on a phone, kidder or you
might Okay, so you need to walk them before school
(43:51):
if we're going to do the walk, So what time
do you normally get up now to be ready in
the car or on the bike walking the school by
this time? Great? So therefore, how long does it take
to go for a walk with the dog? Oh, I'm
not sure where the dog walks. Oh, I'm not sure. Okay,
well we need to find that out. So let's find
that out. If they don't go and find that out,
(44:11):
there's no dog. So now they go and find that out.
And this is that patience and relent. Let's come back
and go all right, I've got to walk. It's trying
to show me Google maps. Great, So how long will
that take? So remember you've got to get you've got
to get ready first lead on the dog. Bang and
if it's a new dog might be pulling, etc. Oh,
it's going to take about forty five minutes, dad, Oh,
and picking up the poo. Where's the poo bag's going
(44:33):
to go in the bins? You know where the poo
bins are? Great, So we come back, So it's forty
five minutes. Who's feeding the dog? You said you were
going to feed the dog? Oh? Yeah, yeah, so who's
paying for that? Then?
Speaker 1 (44:42):
Oh?
Speaker 3 (44:43):
Is daddy paying for that? Okay? Great? So if you're
doing it, then how long is it going to take?
The feed? So so what's important? If they're feeding the dog,
I've got to make sure they vent to the bowl
and there's water afterwards. I can't leave and just throw
the food down. Okay, So now we're looking at ninety
minutes with calculated that it's ninety minutes more before you
go to school. So that means you're getting up at
(45:04):
seven normally. Now that means you need to get up
at five thirty every day Monday to Friday. So now
now we're taking the dream and we're making it real.
So now you've got a kid that might be going well,
(45:25):
I didn't think when I said yeah, I didn't realize
the level of detail and the timing that's going to
impact on my time. Oh maybe not want a dog
that much? So well, fine, but you let me know.
You let me know. Once we get to a point,
you go, right, I'm ready to commit to that. Now.
(45:45):
Once we get to the window where we've gone through
all that and you go, right now, Dad, I'm ready
to commit to remind me what you're ready to commit to?
They tell us again, Great, what if you don't what
permission are you giving me? If you don't do what
you said you're going to do? What? Well, I need
to support you and I need to honor you. But
it would be no good if you do it for
the first week and the second week you're going, oh, sorry,
(46:07):
I got up late, Dad, Can you do it? Because
that's not what we agreed. So if that happens, what
permission you're given me? Where's the impact of that? Okay? Well,
no PlayStation for Saturday? So that week, if you miss
a day for the whole Saturday, there's no game station
if that's something for them or okay, so whatever's relevant
(46:29):
obviously you know, etc. But what we've got to do is,
before we get to the yes and walk off, it's
all about, right, let's what does that actually look like?
What does that mean to you? What changes do you
need to make? Look at your schedule. Now, are you
ready to commit to that for how long? Sixteen seventeen
years if you get in a dog, maybe twenty years,
(46:51):
not just pupping now that adult dog training, et cetera,
et cetera. So that little thing where you've got a
kid saying dad can have a dog. You're going to
walk to them? Oh, yes, dad, feed them? Yes that
can you see the textual difference of raising awareness to well,
let's look at that right now before we get to
the agreement of dad says yes.
Speaker 2 (47:11):
Yeah, I mean one hundred percent. That resonates enormously with me.
And actually, the reason I started laughing is because obviously
so much of that brought to life for me, the
kinds of conversations that either did or didn't happen or
needed to happen. And yeah, and sometimes actually, by the way,
(47:36):
going back to your point about you know, is there
no PlayStation or is there this, that and the other?
What happens if they don't It's like you said, it's
agreeing with them. What the consequences of not following through are?
You know, it doesn't always have to be severe as
severe as a consequence as that it could. It could
just be you know, that they've got to then, yeah,
(47:58):
or or they've got a make up the time somewhere
else with a different role or something else that's got
to be done. But I'm using dog as an example,
like you know, I mean it's it doesn't have to
be as extreme as that, but yeah, I mean that
that whole idea of you know, anybody who says I
want to make a commitment to something, this notion that
(48:19):
you've put there, and actually this is something that I've
been real you really you introduced me years ago to
the grow model. I think it's Simon Whitmore created the
grow model, and I've sort of taken it a little
bit further.
Speaker 1 (48:28):
And called it now, call it the growth model, because
I had do.
Speaker 3 (48:32):
You remember I put an S on the end of grow.
Speaker 1 (48:35):
Remember that you did? Yeah?
Speaker 2 (48:38):
And that was strategy, wasn't it? S? So for those
who aren't versed in grow, goal reality options, way forward
or will and and then you had strategy I had.
I went for goal reality options, way forward, time bound
and help who can help you? Because I found that
(48:59):
people off the need to identify who will help them
on that journey. And that sort of speaks a little
bit to the agreement that you would find with the
person who would make that move forward.
Speaker 1 (49:10):
Right and then but with with.
Speaker 2 (49:12):
With grow and this notion of reality. That's the biggest thing,
the strongest thing, the most powerful element. Is anybody says
I want to do this or I want to achieve that,
and and that is purely and simply a wish or
a dream until you've explored the realities of what it
will take to achieve that dream in whatever time frame.
(49:36):
And when you go through that reality process with people,
they then begin to think about, Okay, well is this realist?
Is this a realistic goal? A? Do I really want it? B?
If I do really want it, maybe I have to
reframe my timeframes. Maybe I have to reframe, you know,
kind of how it's going to materialize for me. Maybe
(49:57):
I'm going to have to reframe the the energy that
it's going to require, and all those sorts of things.
Speaker 3 (50:03):
You know.
Speaker 2 (50:03):
So and I find so much people's aspirations are just
so so far removed from their actual reality that even
just that process of exploring what that means for them
in reality is enormously powerful, because no one's ever done that.
Speaker 3 (50:23):
And we're back to that final point. You've just mentioned there, Stuart,
we've got two options. I'm sure there's variance of the two,
but the two options is is, once someone said, right,
I want to achieve this, I want to get here,
we get into that detailing, Okay, what's that going to take?
For how long? Let's look at the logistics of that.
So what we and often it's a lot of sacrifice.
Often it's if this is important to you, what do
(50:44):
you need to change? Sometimes it's not sacrificing not seeing
your friends going no, I prefer to do this, but
you've got to say, you know, where is it for
how long? Now? Often the other option that we haven't
discussed is that point of now they're looking at it
says no, honestly in reality. Now you've pulled me back
to reality. For all my excitement like preseason teams and businesses,
(51:05):
we're going to do this the vision right reality time
are you willing to connect to And then when you
say no, I said, okay, so let's look at resetting
the goal. Because if we reset the goal, then oh
that's achievable. So it might take years later. Or what
we're doing is we're preventing false expectations and I do
this with a lot of coaches, and this is sliding
(51:27):
into something slightly different, but a lot of coaches get
caught up in a performance and the result they want
to see in a live match, whether that's five six
year olds playing or elite performers, and their expectation is
so pine, a sky faalse, something they've never seen on
the pitch in practice under pressure. And also we can't
replicate the opposition skills. They just expect it because they've
(51:49):
done a few drills, a few games and they go
and all of a sudden, now they're getting annoyed, wound up,
and then after the match really frustrated because well, we
didn't win or we didn't perform, And he's saying, well,
when are they ever performed at the level of your expectation?
So could it be you're setting a bar that the
athletes are not ready for yet. And then we're looking
at where's the source of the breakdown? Well, let's invest
(52:11):
there patiently, relentlessly. So often it's once we get that
reality and take the not to shut down enthusiasm, but
to add realism to commitment, which is the discipline between
disciline and motivation is understanding. Sometimes we need to adjust
the bar. But it's got to be a mutual dialogue.
It can't be an autocratic I'm telling you this is
where the quality of the dialogue comes in.
Speaker 2 (52:34):
Yes, this is This is a very very good, welcome
reminder for many of the principles that have regressed in
my own life.
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