The quiet secret of performance... 'ARP' - PBNO Episode 5

Mark shares the PDS Action Review process and we discuss how coaches and leaders an use it to review performance but also how it is used for athletes, employees, etc can use it to self review.

This then becomes a foundational aspect of the way that organisations communicate leading to a shared dialogue about performance that becomes part of the normal fabric of organisational life.

To enter our competition to win 1 to 1 coaching with Mark. Subscribe to Mark’s website - pdscoaching.com Subcribe to our youtube channel and type 'Count me in' in the comments before next episode on 22nd January.

Become a supporter of this podcast: https://www.spreaker.com/podcast/the-talent-equation-podcast--2186775/support.

Episode Transcript

Speaker 1 (00:00):
Hi everyone, Stewart here before we get into today's podcast,
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Sometimes that impact goes as far as family members and

(00:23):
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(00:43):
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(01:04):
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(01:26):
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(01:46):
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Speaker 2 (01:56):
Welcome to the Townent Equation Podcast. If you are passionate
about helping young people to leash their potential and want
to find ways to do that better, then you've come
to the right place. The Talent Equation podcast seeks to
answer the important questions facing parents, coaches, and talent developers

(02:17):
as they try to help young people become the best
they can be. This is a series of unscripted, unpolished
conversations between people at the razor's edge of the talent
community who are prepared to share their knowledge, experiences and
challenges in an effort to help others get better faster. Listen, reflect,

(02:38):
and don't forget to join the discussion at the Talent
Equation dot co dot UK.

Speaker 3 (02:44):
Enjoy the show.

Speaker 1 (03:01):
All right, Then, twenty twenty five is here.

Speaker 3 (03:03):
Happy new year, Mark yes humbug Stuart, Yes, happily humbugging?

Speaker 1 (03:12):
Well this I mean twenty twenty five is the year
of collaborations and this was the first cab off the rank.
So I'm very excited. I'm coming out of coming out
of the blocks hard, you know, trying to hit that
sort of first forty meters you know, and trying to
see if I can't get ahead and stay ahead. But yeah,
I'm definitely re energized and refreshed having had a little

(03:34):
bit of time off, albeit not a lot, but enough,
you know, just to sort of re energize. We need
to do a one to one PDS on me around
wait fitness health, so that's another conversation for another day.
But yes, we I definitely need to focus on that.

(03:57):
But anyway, how are you? And I'm looking for to
our conversation today and you can tell me how you
are and then you could you could introduce our conversation topic.

Speaker 3 (04:06):
So I'm awesome. I planned my rest day around the
day the gym closed, and the rest was business as usual.
Nothing really changes for me. I you know, live with purpose,
do what I enjoy doing, put real intensity and purpose
into what I'm doing, and that's what recharges my batteries.
So yeah, all all good my end. I'm actually Sunday,

(04:29):
I'm off to porch Gul to work with Edge Golf
College again with their students, so there for a week
and using the PDS upskilling them. Second visit, so we'll
be building on interdependence. First visit was independence. So we're
building the rull of three, the ARP which links us
beautifully into this and how we load pressure using ARP

(04:50):
to set where our capability limits are and then know
how to stretch them so that that will be for
them next week. So excited to get stuck in with
them again.

Speaker 1 (05:00):
So ARP introduces to this concept of ARP.

Speaker 3 (05:03):
So the ARP stands for the Action review Process. Now,
this has been an evolution over decades. I remember when
we went on the training with me, you did. I
don't know how long ago, now, was it fifteen years ago?
Maybe maybe something like that. Crazy, This wasn't this wasn't
in the frame as it is now, So I call

(05:25):
it the action review process. However, if you're listening and
you don't know the PDS language yet, and you haven't
involved yourself in the principles, then this is live decision
making for an athlete, a person, a manager, irrelevant of
who you are, whether you're in the five grade, the police, military,
doesn't matter. But also it's a way to analyze post action. Also,

(05:52):
so for you itself in choice, execution, judgment post, but
also for an athlete live in the moment, whether that's
a golf player, football rugby player, and a business manager
if they're saying I'm not sure why that person did that,
instead of telling them what they did wrong and how
to put it right, or ask twenty questions and getting

(06:12):
nothing back, there's a framework that we've all shared that
allows me to understand where the source of an issue
was to help me support them in their growth without
micromanaging them, but also recognize whether the success came from.
So for me, it's a game changer in the whole
of PDS. It runs through it similar to the rule
of three, where it's a framework you build from, but

(06:35):
the action review process is the game change in what
we want of people. We want people to be able
to be confident and confident in making good judgment live
on their own and in a collaboration, but also be
able to live review and conclude, not waiting till afterwards
to watch a video or have a chat with coach
or someone else or manager. In the moment, can I

(06:57):
review my choice and execution so I can that live
and that for me is the biggest in between this
and traditional coaching.

Speaker 1 (07:07):
So there's a lot to this, and I know it's
going to take us a little while to unpack it.
But there's three things that you talked about there, which
was the sort of prior to action, post action, and inaction.
We'll probably unpick those a little bit, but I could

(07:28):
see initially I was thinking, oh, yeah, there's elements of
this that I'll do in the pre and there's elements
of this I'll do in the post, albeit not as
tightly and succinctly as you've articulated them. So there was
a really good reminder for me around some of those
elements and sort of reflecting on my own process and
the elements that I would use within my own process.

(07:50):
The bit that I was really interested about was the inaction,
and we can probably come onto that a little bit
later on, but maybe if you just go through the
stages and the steps, and then I can just chime
in on some of the I guess, minor modifications that
perhaps I've taken to ARP because in my context it
works for me in a particular way. Still keeping the framework,

(08:13):
you know, honest to the framework, but just doing things
little hacks and shortcuts, perhaps I know you probably looked
like that, but they just work for me in my context.

Speaker 3 (08:20):
Well, what we do is I challenge you on them, Stewart,
in relation to the situation, to identify what you need
to add and what you need to take away, because
in my opinion, there's nothing needs to add, nothing should
be taken away. But then it's down to the context
of your interpretation of each of the stages, which is
the important element. I could throw this up on the

(08:43):
screen with this crazy technology. If it works, let's commit.
So wow, check that out. So that looks crazy, I know,
bear with us in the members area. This is broken
down so it won't just be one massive slide. I
delve in to each singular element, then put them all
together and then show how they fit within everything else.

(09:04):
But just for the purpose of this, I'm just going
to run through it in a simple way. So the
green on the left, the first four boxes are your
decision making boxes. The gray or silver that's the fifth
and sixth box you'll see there is your actual execution
the action. Then the next two boxes on the right,

(09:25):
the last two is your live evaluation reviewing, And that's
the main elements. But there is a process of closure
without overthinking, and then be present again to what's next.
So if I just went through the first force, you're
on the decision making in a very simple, clean way

(09:46):
and see how they all relate and see how they
all impact each other. So if you're watching this, then
you're a coach. If you're watching this a parent, an athlete,
someone in business, a school teacher, makes no difference. Contextualize
this to situation in your life as they go through it.
So first element is always state. So when I talk
about state, is the mood, the state the emotional point

(10:12):
at the moment, So be aware of it and manage
it to be acceptable. And the reason why I say
that is if you're an athlete on a pitch, on
a court wherever you may be in golf, and you
are still thinking about you've just missed or conceded or
a bad shot, whatever it may be, the chances are
your state is not effective, is not acceptable. Now, if

(10:34):
your state's unacceptable, that's going to impact every single one
of the decision makers stages after that, And that's why
that's number one. First. When that's acceptable and we can
get acceptable, we go then into scanning. And when I
use scanning. It's about collating data. So if you're an

(10:58):
accountant on a screen, you've got four five elements open
and you're thinking, hang on a minute, how's my state present?
That's minimize these three? It's this one I'm on Now
I'm scanning. I'm looking up for all the relevant data
on a screen. For a football or a rugby player,
basketball player, that is now scanning for the important relative data.
So if you're outside a wheather could be a consideration,

(11:21):
but particularly where your players are at base level, where
the opposition is at base level, where the pitch, court
side edges are, where there's space, where there's opportunity threats.
Once you get skilled at this, you'll be able to
start spotting more texture. Golf player would be you know,
where's the ball, where's the surrounding, where's the rough, where's
the hazards, where's the wind coming from those? Just so

(11:44):
it's just a data capture and you're not making decisions
at this point, you're just collating the data. Now important
for a manager or a boss is this is where
we need to understand. Hang on, before I make judgment,
have isolated all the data? Have I made a good
information capture? Before I start making judgment or decisions. So

(12:06):
once we've done that, the next element is looking at
all the options. And when I talk about all the options,
it's about actually understanding what are all my options without
dismissing one before I've even started. And if you've ever
played golf, one of the biggest problems with players in
golf is they're already deciding what option they're going to
choose before they've actually looked at the data. And this

(12:29):
is where people can really go for the crazy shots
and they muck up and there is negative spiral. So
the options as right, what are all the options now?
The next one is where I see a lot of
people trip up. In business, in sport, in education, coaching,
management is identifying the influencers are variable. So if you
think about it, options is identifying all of them. The

(12:52):
influencers now are how we eliminate options. Well, it's not
that because of this, It's not that because of this,
It's not that because of this. Okay, I'm left with
one or two, which is the one based on my capability,
and it's a team the best capability of us, in
confidence comes up. I'm choosing this one. So it's that
understanding of not cutting one of those shorts. So once

(13:13):
we get to that point, now we've got a choice.
We can start with confidence without doubt. We can start
putting intention and intensity into which moves into the execution.
So that's the decision making phase, Stuart.

Speaker 1 (13:30):
Right, keep going through and then I'll circle back to
all of it, and then and then we can start
off and pick some of this.

Speaker 3 (13:36):
Okay, so we cannot. Is a really simple rule that
you can teach anyone in management, in business and teaching
in sport is you don't commit unless you've decided mentally
you're going to commit. And what I mean by that is,
do not have two ideas in your head or do
not have fear of failure in your head when you've
decided an option. The whole point of the veriable influences

(13:59):
is to get to a point go this is the
right option based on needs centered which again listen to
the Christmas episode and we really delve into that side
of things. Right right now, this is it. Once I've
made that, I back myself, I back myself with intention,
of clarity of purpose, and I go for it. And
that's the we're looking at. If I use I'm using

(14:21):
a word in here, as you'll see tactical technical. That's
basically the The technical will be just that movement action
you're going to do. The tactical would be okay, So
what are the options? What's the strategy we're going to use? So,
in essence, you've decided on a strategy, and then you're
going to execute it, which is those two boxes, and
it's executing without doubt, without fear, without limiting beliefs. Well

(14:44):
I might not do this, Well I'll give it a try.
None of that nonsense. I'm committing to this. This is
what it is, and I'm going for it to give
yourself your best chance of success based on your present capability. Now,
once you've done that, the first question we ask ourselves
before we have earned the right to review is did
I commit? Now, this is another area I spend hours

(15:07):
with my clients to it, going into all levels, is
understanding what commitment actually means. And we may talk about
on this, but we could do a whole episode on
what commitment actually means. So if the answer is have
I committed, the answers no, I haven't earned the right
to review choice execution because the conclusion is next time commit.
There's no point in reviewing something you haven't committed to.

(15:29):
It's a waste of energy and time and it's not
given you useful data. So if the answers, yes, I've committed,
then I review separately, how was the choice, how was
the execution? From that, you're going to get to a
conclusion of next time I And it might be I'm
made in the same again, or it's that next time

(15:51):
if that situation comes up, I'm going to do this,
or next time we if it's a team dynamic, so
easy example is if it's in basketball's any of these
on the picture of the court. Now, if it's the
next time, we, I need to make sure I effectively
communicate next time we so we understand next situation, these
are the adjustments, or we're nailing it. Let's do that

(16:14):
again next time. So there's a team collective now in training,
we need to practice what words are we going to
use where the people can hear that and understand what
does that mean to them and what are they going
to do next time. That's another potential episode on its own.
So once I've done that, I've had closure. I don't
have to think about it. It's not still in my head.
It's done. Then I revolve around to write what's next,

(16:36):
and that's just about being present again. It's right, it's done.
I'm now again state scanning, and I'm on it again.
I'm present again. So that in a simple version, is
the cycle, if you like Stuart.

Speaker 1 (16:52):
So obviously in a game like golf, there's a time
dimension to this, you know, so there can be a
period of time between action i e. Shot, whatever it
might be, and so obviously the time in which you
can go through this process, whether you're doing it yourself
or with another like a caddy or someone, obviously takes

(17:13):
bit of time. In a management context or a leadership context, again,
you've probably got some time between the evaluation of the situation,
the choice of action, the action, and then the review
process that might last over a even a week in
some cases, you know, depending on the nature of the task.

(17:33):
But obviously in a dynamic context, like say a team game,
which is the one I operate in, this is a
much more fluid process. It's not as so, although obviously
you've presented it separately, I know that from a in
terms of its implementation in a live dynamic context, you

(17:54):
recognize that it's not as if you're going to go
through each process sequentially in a really rigid linear way.
It's got much more dynamism in terms of it's applicated,
which is what I was referring to earlier on.

Speaker 3 (18:04):
Yeah, now let's break that down. If we go back
to the golf and the management for golf in particular,
and I know from your experience in golf, where golf
is hyper load is in pre shot routine. Where it's
very poor is post shot routine. So what's important for
golfers is that when they get to this cycle and

(18:24):
if I put up another little slide, if we go
the right direction, here is the same process, but it's
you see it in a cycle manner from a coaching
point of view. So again we could get into that later.
But if we go back here, imagine that is a slide.
Now what we need to do. Think of a golf player.
What we don't want them to do is be walking

(18:45):
down the course without concluding. What we want them to
do is once I've completed the swing, they will know
whether they commit it or not. Want it's simple, you know,
if it's a yes, and if it there's doubt, the
chances are it's a no, and then we just getting
into literally while they're putting their club back in a bag,
they're going and doing the reviewing choice execution if they'ven't

(19:07):
the right and then it's done. Now they can walk
down and have normal discussions. But what's really important in
the golfer is what some golfers do is if they
have high expectations and then this shot is not to
their expectations, if we talk about it like that, what
they'll do is they'll still be taught thinking about it

(19:28):
for the walk down, and that could put them in
a negative spiral. So it's really important to get the closure.
If we look at that management again and we look
at that in all realms of management, there will be
times when this has to be fast in the moment.
There will be times, as you say, where you say, right,
let's collate that data. I'm going to do my little
hot review on it, and I get all my corporates

(19:52):
to do that. In that moment. It might be a
little voice message or a little note, and then I
do a cold review, which may be on my own
or with the team, and it's in that moment, that
cold of you where we can share right, what do
we think from that? So a lot of it contextually
if we think about it in life, if we can
look at this and go, actually, like you say, it's
a new skill. So if we relate that back to

(20:14):
golf or anything else, and golf's a great example of
this is to learn a swing. There's so many elements
to a swing, right, stut, crazy amount of elements. And
if you just said, right, we're going to learn it
all in the day, it's never going to happen, and
it takes years and years and years. Now, if we
look at this, this is if we relate that to

(20:35):
a golf swing, think of this as a golf swing
is initially it's going to be a bit clunky, and
there's ways we can integrate this within even live sports
and business and in the golf. What we're saying, we're
in a learning phase. Now. This is a focus to
learn this and it may be clunky. Some people will go,
I love this bit, love this part. I'm struggling with
this bit. And we can talk in a bit about

(20:56):
how a coach or a manager can use this to
identify where an athlete or an employer he is struggling.
But what we're doing is we're saying, look, let's spend
explicit time in learning this, and once we start to
learn it, it starts to become natural. And as you've seen
in the members area, there's videos of young kids doing
this on a pitch and it looks so flowing. It's

(21:18):
so flowing because the coaches put in explicit time. So
we are going to learn the ARP and get the
value of it and spend sessions just learning it with
no pressure, as if it's a software skill that we
talked about in previous episodes. So then it becomes I've
got to a point now, Stuart and I. In fact,
we had a review chat with one of my clients

(21:39):
in America and every single one of the coaches said,
I don't remember how I coached before this mark and
because now this is my natural way of scanning, thinking
and doing reflecting, because now it's I can't not do it,
if that makes sense. But initially it was a horrendously clunky,
and they identified where they were struggling, they identified where

(22:00):
actually they're not as good as they thought they were
in certain elements of this. Even as a coach point
of view.

Speaker 1 (22:08):
Yeah, So part of the reason I part of the
reason I was asking this question in terms of my
context is obviously, as you know, I'm an ecological practitioner,
but I incorporate PDS into my ecological practice. So if
you like, I'm practicing EPDs, and obviously one of the

(22:31):
things I do is I don't always utilize an explicit
framework like this. So the way I do this is
that I will build it into the athlete vocabulary so
that they are and I know this is something we're
going to go on to but you very much advocate

(22:52):
that the athlete or the employee or whoever it is
that you're leading on a journey of change, that they
begin to learn and adopt this and it becomes theirs
more than it becomes hours. So obviously it works with
coaches and works in a coach development context as well.
So if you were developing somebody, a manager, a leader,

(23:13):
a coach of any kind, they can use this review
to reflect on their own their own practice and their
own behavior. And actually that in a coaching session, that's
really good to do because you've got the planning phase
and the decision making phase, you've got the execution phase,
you've got the review phase, and this that and the other.
But one of the things that you'll find when it
comes to the athletes is that if the athletes own this,

(23:34):
so they're managing state, they're doing their own scanning live
in the moment, in the action, in the dynamic consider
they're constantly referring to options and communicating options to each other.
They're making live choices, they're committing for periods of time.
In a training session, often you work in like a
five minutes shift, and then you come back and do
a bit of review. You then have a very brief

(23:54):
moment for some review or even live review in the
activity and in the game. So this process becomes really
stick and sometimes you're going from a review back to
a back straight to a choice because the state and
scanning bits already had taken care of and you know
that they're doing that. You can see that it's observing
in this and the other, so you're going straight from
review to choice review to choice review sto. And then

(24:15):
you go back, oh, states drop, let's come back to that,
and you make them aware of that. So there's sort
of a dynamic flow to this that well, certainly for me,
that's how I kind of often execute this because they're playing,
they're doing it, and we haven't always got the time
for me to necessarily stop things. So you know, that's
kind of what I what I was sort of referring to,
I suppose.

Speaker 3 (24:35):
So let's let's delve into that, because that's interesting take,
and it's a common take. Is well, there's a few
so many elements to from what you've just said there.
So the first bit, let's start with whatever style of
coaching you're into, you can still use this. If someone says,
I'm still I love drills, I need to tell them

(24:57):
you can still use.

Speaker 1 (24:58):
They don't exist to you know, surely they don't exist.

Speaker 3 (25:00):
In a spectrum of somewhere light and shade. And you
may have a coach goes, I never ever want to
say anything or give anyone an answer or anything. You
can still use this. But the important part is we
explicit teach this to everybody. This is not hidden, This
is not something just the coaches use. The whole impact

(25:22):
of PDS is everything's explicit. So what we do is
we say, let's share this, because that's play Devil's advocate.
With what you've said there of how you would use it, Stuart,
we don't know. We might see them scanning, but we
don't know what options have identified. All the time we
see them committing to a choice. The problem with that

(25:44):
is if I'm evolving someone in needs centered past where
they are now, we may have somebody that continues to
choose a similar choice and it may be successful, but
actually it's limited if we want to grow their game
if we look in that in the fought, in context
or anywhere and makes a lot of decisions. So remember

(26:04):
we did a podcast on your normal podcast channel and
you asked me, could you share how many interventions you've got?
And I think I shared seven or eleven interventions for
a coach without stopping play. And this is where this
comes in. So if we think of an example, now
plays going on, I don't want to stop playing as
much as I can. I want the play to be

(26:24):
going with athletes making decisions. So what I do then
is I'm now looking and I'm thinking, I think that
person scanned. I could see their heads moving around. Interesting,
why did they make that choice? Even if it came
off or not not interested, I'm interested in why they
made the choice. I don't know now I'm guessing. So
what I do is I just shouted that player over

(26:45):
is one of the interventions, and I just go, can
you just review what happened over there and immediately that
athletes should be Now they may mistake, but they'll certainly
be going for right. This is what I saw. These
were the options identified, and this is why I chose
that one, and I wouldn't change a thing. I'd do
it again now by them saying this is what I
saw as a coach without having to ask anything, I'm

(27:07):
now listening and think, oh, you've missed something, you didn't
see something, or yeah, you've seen it. All these were
the options I identified. The players said that, and now
I'm thinking, yeah, they're the options, or ah, you didn't
even see that as an option, So that may be
a match IQ issue because the scanning was good, but
identifying that as an option, or they've identified the options,

(27:28):
but then to go, this is why I chose that
we look at influencers. It's quite clear that's where their
match IQ is missing. That's where they're struggling. Because you're
now listening that and think that's not good judgment. I
can see where I need to support you. So then
the coach can make a judgment on which interventions are use.
Now they know whether the source of the athletes strugglers

(27:51):
or limitation within growing their game. So this is where
it can be used really well. Now you could just
go right, I'm seeing something else, sure, shout the name
because this has been trained and pre agree Sarah, and
then Sarah just goes right option and the right choice
and we haven't even pulled them over. Now, if you're going, yeah,
I love that, I agree, or next time I'm going

(28:12):
to go earlier on the right and they're still running
past that's all and you go great, or you're thinking
not sure, then you could call them over and go
can you just talk me through it? And then they
would go through this process and you go, oh, it's
this is where the breakdown is. This is where it
is same token stu it. If someone's doing something pickly
well and they're always down on themselves, use the same process,

(28:33):
go can you just talk me through up and there
and go oh and you know, just taught me through it. Well,
this is what I saw. These were the options. This
is why I chose that. Yeah, I committed to it,
Yeah I executed okay, and yeah I wouldn't change a thing.
And now now you can go positive enforcement. I said,
I agree with what you said apart from how you
said it. I thought that was fantastic. See what you've

(28:56):
changed there, See why what difference app made when you
made that choice and commit. So I love what you
did there. Can you see the difference. So then we're
helping those athletes that are always looking for the negative,
always looking for the process, but actually we're not taking over.
We're still getting them to think through it. So can
you see the subtleties how you could break this down

(29:18):
and use it in more ways than just a group
stood there stopping playing talking for it.

Speaker 1 (29:24):
Yeah, exactly. And there's something in the in the members
area that I picked up on what there's a really
really good video of this. You have a there's a
point of view camera of a player playing. They clearly
got like a GoPro on and you hear them speaking
to their teammates and using the RP live. So they're

(29:45):
asking their teammates to review live and it doesn't take it,
you know, it's it's just a method of communication. And
then they're just feeding back to each other all the
time about the various things going on and the level
of communication. And I think they might be like ten
eleven something like that. And the level of communication is,
in my opinion, pretty unprecedented because generally speaking, what you

(30:07):
see with coaching is that you know, young people are
unwilling to communicate to each other often and a lot
of the time it's because they haven't got a framework,
and they also haven't recognized that it becomes an expectation
because there's a framework to do it. That means that
you don't have to have conflict and ego and all
of those sorts of things getting in the way. It's
just a normalized process with a framework to use, and

(30:29):
everybody expects that that's the way it's going to be done.
It's really quite powerful.

Speaker 3 (30:34):
And that's linking now to how this fits into the
rule of three because we've discussed before that great point
you've made their stupid We've discussed rule of three, and
what you've shared there is rule of two, and this
is again what we want to build because a lot
of teams, even the senior teams I've worked with, one
of the challenges coaches have is and in business, is

(30:56):
some people don't like feedback from their peers. They say
it as a finding fault so we need a paradigm
shift in okay, what is success for us? Okay, so
who have you got around you to help you be successful?
That when they reach out to you, it's for them
to understand how they can help you be better next time.
So they may have done a pass or remove, or
a decision you thought I wasn't ready for that, or

(31:18):
it may be you've missed something there, let me help
you identify it. But it's still using a player first,
player last in that principle of you've heard there. You
haven't got players shouting and telling you need to go
there next time, because in essence, that's a bit like
coach telling an athlete where they need to go this time.
That's not really helping that athlete learn. For context is okay,
so what why do I? Where are the options? But

(31:41):
actually by using this in that player first, player last,
even or a peer to peer the balls, now we
know we've got a second of player. They can still
scan off ball, but now there's a level of dialogue,
that swift of quality and a languisy understand that can
get them to get to the conclusion in a collaborative,
sessful way. And also you'll see other videos now, I

(32:03):
don't know if you've got them to yet, Stewart, where
people do this at rule of one. So literally, if
they've recognized that actually they did something exceptionally well, you'll
see them recognize that show. Or if they feel actually
they made the wrong choice and reflection, you'll see them
put a hand up and say what the choice should
have been. So they won't share the problem. They'll share

(32:25):
the next time solution so their teammates can hear that
and go great, love that. I don't even have to
ask you. I know now you know next time, which
is a serious confidence builder important to connect with Stuart
as well. Those videos that you're watching in the members area,
they are not set up. They are from raw recordings
of normal training sessions. These aren't oh let's you say this,

(32:46):
I say that, and that's EVO Soccer, EBA, Rugby and Sheffield.
You want to see the senior teams now that are
moving up the leagues, that are now in professional leagues
and it's phenomenal. But it's phenomenal because they're starting that
with their seven eight year old kids and building this
in to become natural process of thinking in and outside

(33:07):
the sport.

Speaker 1 (33:10):
Yeah, I mean, so it's interesting because what you're doing
here is the sort of the human dynamics element. So
it's a framework to enable the human dynamics. So obviously
the ecological approach is about the environment and it's about
picking up it about being aware of the sources of
information available that will help us to be able to

(33:31):
guide action and coordinate action. But you still need to
coordinate that. You still need to verbalize that to individuals
because if somebody observes, for example, that the opposition are
doing something or mobilizing in a particular way, you have
to be able to react to that. And it's the
same in a business context. You know, if you notice,
for example, that a colleague is doing something that you

(33:54):
know might be detrimental or something along those lines, you've
got to find the way of engaging with that. You know,
even though that they might be they might be one
hundred percent think that they're doing the right thing. One
question I had for you though, Oh and by the way, yeah,
and in those videos, it's really obvious to me that
that communication and the method of communication is really impactful,
and like you say, it does build a lot of confidence. Now,

(34:17):
the one bit that's interesting to me, though, is it
does take a while. I imagine if I've found this
to be true to build the kind of culture where
people accept this readily. And I'm thinking about some of
the workplaces that I consult to where in actual fact,
there is quite a significant amount of animosity, there's quite

(34:39):
a significant amount of competitiveness, and that's driven by some
of the economic imperatives built in bonus systems and things
like that, where people don't readily communicate with each other
because they see that as an opportunity cost. You know,
if I communicate something to somebody else and it helps
them do their job better, that's a potential loss to me. Now,
you could argue that there are some downsides to having
those kinds bonus systems that make people be combative against

(35:02):
each other and competitive. However, if that's the way the
business works and that's what's been successful for that business,
you're not necessarily going to want to change that. What
we're going to try and do is change the human
dynamics within it. And there's a lot of other competitive
environments in a sporting context that are similar. So I
wonder if you could just expand on this notion of
how you look at some of those cultural dynamics and

(35:24):
still embed these ideas and bring them in.

Speaker 3 (35:28):
Well, let's start with the obvious is that if you're
changing culture, changing culture stems by changing the way people
see and think about things and changing their behavior or
stems from that. So any culture change is tough. Any
culture change takes some really effective and robust, adherent strategies

(35:51):
to support and embed the change. And that's most of
my work is embedding the support for change. The behavioral change.
All these do is aligned to. And if you go
back even to the episodes we've covered already, we've talked
about what excellence actually is. We've talked about what the
lights house and successes. We've talked about being selfish and
self less and understanding what that means and how as

(36:15):
managers and leaders we need to be the role models
of that. We need to be self aware and accurate
in our self awareness of where our work ons are
and literally project that to the people we're working with
to be the role models in reality, but also understand
if our parameters of what success is, our measures are

(36:37):
making people only independent and not interdependent, our measured success
that we're promoting as carrots are ineffective to drive the
behaviors that we want to build the culture we need.
So I do a lot of work with businesses and sport,
more businesses because I think some, although elite brought, there

(37:00):
are some drives to be top of the table. You know,
the money, etc. The media hype, hire and fire, But
particularly in businesses, they're so caught up on traditional or
how can I get my manager or submanager to work hard. Well,
let's give a bonus if they get so many sales
or they do this. But what they're not being smart
about is go, well, what type team do you want

(37:23):
to build? And when they look at that, so to go.
So do your bonuses and incentives aligned to the type
behavior you want to flourish in your organization. If they don't,
you need to change them without eliminating them. But are
they fit for purpose? And this is where I get
to know they're not mark but we're not sure of
what is and that's when we have to go through
that journey. And again it's human change. I'd say the

(37:46):
toughest crowd for me has been some schools I've gone
into where I think it's the toughest dynamic to change.
In sports, in schools. Would you have an idea of
why there's so much tougher than professional sports or community
sports or business where there's a bit of a perfect

(38:09):
storm in challenges in schools.

Speaker 1 (38:13):
So parental explanation and parental expectation and the need for results.

Speaker 3 (38:19):
Well both of those. Yes, what I've noticed is the
big difference where challenge kannico. If you're in business or
you're in elite sport, use those two for example. It
is results driven at some way. Now we can go, well,
what are the facilitates of that? We go, I'm paying
you to get results, so therefore, hey, you don't get

(38:41):
the results, and either train you up or get rid
of you or move you somewhere else. Same as in sport.
In community the coaches a lot there aren't doing it
for the money, but actually their community club is based
on people turning up, volunteering players, kids, parents to drop
their kids off and the kids keep coming back school.
You're paid apart from a few schools. You're still paid

(39:05):
even if you don't win championships or cups. But the
kids turn up because they have to turn up. It's
not like voluntary. So when you're looking at that for
a teacher for someone extern or like crazy Mark or
anyone to come in that often, like traditional in business,
and we've spoke about already, is someone might come in
for a training day and go that was really interesting,

(39:27):
and I might do a little bit, but I forget
about it in three weeks, Oh what was that we did?
So they'll stay in their comfort zones. But obviously, when
you got someone like me coming in, and obviously there's
many versions of me around the world as well, we're
saying no, no, no, if we're coming in, why are
we coming in? And if we're running some delivery, we
need to go, well, if we're seeing a value on it,
how we're going to embed it. Let's put support structure

(39:47):
in place, let's agree what you're going to commit to,
and then I hold them accountable. But often you'll find
in some of those situations people won't commit to what
they say, and then then becomes discomfort because if you
look at the parameters, the parameters, well, I'm still being paid,
the kids are still turning up hey, you know, so

(40:11):
that is as constraints of where are we what is
success can be a little bit mixed up in some schools.
Now you will have teachers in schools and some schools
that are all over this, and they go and this
is fantastic. But you'll also have somewhere you're going, well, no,
I'm fine as I am, so why don't it or not?

(40:32):
But I'm not going to do anything, And then I
can quite happily come up with the excuse why I
haven't done it or committed to it, and then oh,
it didn't work, but did you commit to it? Well yeah,
but no, blah blah blah. So if you're looking at
it as the most difficult environments to build the culture
and the change, i'd say that particular area i'd say
is the toughest in my experience, out of all the

(40:54):
areas I've worked in.

Speaker 1 (40:57):
It's interesting you mentioned that. So the philosopher in me,
now you know, looks at it, looks at that and
sees that as a whole series of misaligned incentives. So
you've got individuals who, for example, have a vested interest
in maintaining the status quo, and they also have very

(41:18):
little incentive to improve because actually, if you know, why
would they, because you know, there's not really any reason
to do that apart from, you know, the need to
get results. So you can imagine organized you know, if
it was an organization that wasn't particularly getting results, they
might be interested. But organizations that are traditionally doing that,

(41:39):
why would they. The other thing I was thinking about
when you were saying that, as well, is is that
there this is a particular type of school that you're
referring to. I'm assuming they're always outwardly talking about well
being athlete well being, but I've noticed in some of
my conversations with some of similar sort of invite where

(42:01):
there seems to be a big misalignment between their outward
projections of what they're all about in terms of athlete
well being or student well being and holistic development and
all those sorts of things. And then practice because the practice.
Because this circle's just right back to episode one, this
notion of winning well because I think what we're talking
about here, whether it's business school, club, whatever it is,

(42:22):
is whenever the focus becomes purely and simply about outcome,
this is why performance is a behavior on outcome. When
it becomes about outcome, you start to see all of
these different sort of maladaptive behaviors emerging. And you know,
this goes right back to some of the performance realm
where the focus just becomes on, you know, kind of
winning the medal or the cup or the shield or

(42:43):
the whatever it is, and the behavior of the humans changes.
And I see this in community sport as well. You know,
the minute it's about a shield or a cup or
a tournament, all of a sudden, the behaviors of adults,
whether it's coach or spectator or parents, they all change.
And it's funny how those environments do foster certain behaviors,
and I could understand why those cultural challenges. The bit

(43:04):
I took away from what you were saying there was
you mentioned the rule of three, and just to sort
of do a quick teach back on the rule of
three in case people don't know how you know are
coming to this late. You know, the rule of three
is basically I see that as like an ownership framework
where the first level, the rule of one is where
you know you're the athlete is self reviewing, self identifying,

(43:26):
and acknowledging that they've sort of moved away from the
agreed set of parameters that we've established around how they're
going to behave and how they're going to act and
the things they're going to do the tasks they're going
to perform. The second one is when the peer notices
and asks the other individual to review what they're doing
and miss that. And the other that's rule of two
and rule of three is then when the leader, coach, teacher,

(43:47):
whoever the facilitator is begins to step in to remind
the individuals about their responsibilities or whether they're there are
in the state that they were looking for and they
delivering against those sorts of parameters that have been pre agreed.
So that's the rule of three. But that's a tool
that's a building block. The ARP is a building block.

(44:08):
And the bit that I just took away from what
you were saying there is that these tools, whether it's uaes,
rule of three, ARP, all these sorts of things are
building blocks that then aggregate up to a change of culture.
So you don't necessarily need the culture to be right
to embed these ideas. What you do is you begin
to embed these ideas and then the culture dynamically shifts

(44:31):
in a direction, hopefully in a more positive direction than
the one you're currently in.

Speaker 3 (44:35):
Yeah, one hundred percent. These are facilitators to optimum performance
and wellness. If you think about it. We've just talked
about the action review there. The rule of one itself
is living that action review process towards your purpose, your
lighthouse based on your needs from getting up in the

(44:56):
bed in the morning to you know, whatever you're doing,
the choices you're making in life, interacting with certain people,
same process, working through rule of two. Now we're saying, okay,
now I'm doing one, but now how can I help
my peers. Well, again, the action view press is going
to help you understand as opposed to just telp people.
What to do is I need to understand why you're

(45:17):
thinking and what you're doing that way, and now I
can support you. Or you're killing yourself. You're actually doing
really well. Let me share with you why. And then
that rule of three is at all times they can
all reach out for help if they can't fix it
from two and one and three, So that three is actually, no,
you're not self managing, I need to intervene, or you're

(45:39):
struggling to find a solution. Let me put an intervention
in without taking over. That's going to help you raise
your awareness to provide the solution on the journey. So
that organic mass is the facilitators to driving the behaviors
to building the culture. And this is where I think
years ago through it and we chatted. I don't I
remember we had I think it was BB and O Golf.

(46:01):
I think Wayne, it was the first golf chat that
introduced us, I believe through BB and O and then
through to you all those years ago. And when we
first had the chat. One of the things that you
really connected with and you said that you liked is
the fact of what you're doing is you're building a
framework that glues everything together to allow people to enhance themselves.

(46:28):
And you know, if you simplified it, that's what it is.
It's about saying no, no, not keep driving. These markers
are the markers fit for purpose, but the facilitator markers
our behaviors. So do we know how to invest in
them to give people the support and the clarity that
they need and challenge to build the very behaviors that
allow them to be effective. And then if it's a

(46:50):
team organization in business, in anything, how do we know
to build that interdependency. So we're not building just funnels.
We're building it, but we're building it from the bottom
and the top. At the same time, we're not saying
it's top down, We're not saying its bottom up. We
go no, we all start together. This is inclusive journey,
and the principles will use and we're going to commit

(47:11):
them to them together and share our vulnerability together, irrelevant
of the hierarchy we're in, and that's when it becomes
very powerful.

Speaker 1 (47:21):
Yeah, And at that point about hierarchy is a really
important one, because that's one of the things I really
really like about this is that because you're investing a
lot of you're giving, not giving. You're supporting your athlete,
peer employee with the tools to self review and to

(47:45):
manage their own kind of journey of development, and we're
pre agreeing what that looks like, and we're doing all
those sorts of things. The level of ownership is just
through the roof, and from a management perspective or a
leadership perspective coaching perspective, what you find happens is you

(48:06):
have just way, way less stress. So it's an investment initially,
because becoming more familiar with this approach and then enabling
others to become more familiar with the approach does take some time,
and it takes an investment, and I think that's where
probably a lot of people fall down, but what it
pays you back is just off the scale because you're

(48:29):
no longer firefighting, you're no longer having to manage all
these different situations and deal with all these conflict points
and having to step in all the time and go,
you know, we've said this before, why isn't this happening?
And all those sorts of things. You don't have to
get like that. You get a situation where the athletes, employees,

(48:50):
individuals are constantly they're doing it themselves to a certain extent,
and then you're just nudging and guiding and reminding and
sometimes then taking it in a slight, a different direction,
or or you know, go on all those sorts of things.
And so from a kind of day to day operational perspective,
your life just becomes a whole lot easier. And then

(49:12):
you can focus on the things that you need to
focus on, which is direction, which is strategy, which is
observing things and seeing what's going on and then putting
the communication in it. So I think a lot of practitioners,
leaders and all that sort of stuff, they're so busy
solving problems on the day to day, and I see
this on a daily basis in a number of the

(49:33):
places that I'm consulting to, and they're so busy solving
problems that they never really get the opportunity to think
about direction and so what they're And then the reason
that's really dangerous in a business context is you're then
at the mercy of the winds of change. So if
there's a shift in you know, the kind of the

(49:54):
business landscape because suppliers change, or there's a supply chain problem,
or one of your work providers, for example, decides they're
not gonna what you could usually see is you could
have spotted that ahead of time, and it hits you,
and then you're in reaction mode, and then you're in
panic mode, and then you might have to look at
layoffs or whatever. It might be. Happens all the time.

(50:15):
Same thing happens in a sport concept. You're on the sideline.
Sometimes something different happens the team that the team you're
playing does something differently, and you're powerless to change it
because the group can't self adapt. Live in the moment,
and you start shouting instructions and making substitutions and you
do all these different things. It's too late. It's already begun,

(50:35):
you know. So these things are so powerful in terms
of being able to manage performance, have groups of individuals
working to a common purpose, self evaluating, constantly reviewing, peer support,
driving improvement. And it means then that the organization becomes really,
really resilient to these wins of change, you know, whether

(50:55):
it's a sporting context or a business context.

Speaker 3 (50:59):
And that's where the solution based approach, in a preventative way,
not a cure way, comes in. So so many managers
contact me initially when I go, I having competence, and
sometimes I use that word, sometimes I don't. With certain individuals,
I'm spending a lot of time doing their job for them.
But when you start scanning, okay, well, how are you

(51:19):
managing that person that they've now built a limited belief
in that department or that person. So what we're not doing,
we're not doing preventive work. We'll go, actually, well, what
structures have you put in a way to help them
make good judgment? What confidence have you given them in
their permissions? And what torreadly be given them where they
can quantify what they did and why they did. So

(51:40):
now you've got this stretch where okay, yeah, micromanaging now,
and I can't just step away because I'm not confident too. Okay,
so how do you know how to make those steps
and still be on in the confidence and building theirs?
They go, Hey, Boss, trust me now, and not, well,
there's no point in me making a decision because Boss
is just going to rip me apart. So I won't
make decisions. Boss, tell me what you want me to do?

(52:00):
And now the vicious cycle is there, So things like these.
There's elements we haven't shared yet that I'm sure we'll
share as we go. But fundamentally, I put these in
early on and they never change. That's a beauty. They're timeless.
But what you'll find is you can use them in
so many areas. An example would be in business when
you have a weekly catch up meeting. Instead of going

(52:21):
around the room and you know, a guys to the
front asking a lot of questions, we can just go
department and they can work using the actual review process.
Share right, okay, so I can quantify and qualify why
you came to these decisions. These are the influencers. These
are elements we don't know. We need your support and
influencers could be budget, seasonal time frames, risk reward in business.

(52:43):
So now the boss can go, Actually, now you share
that with me. Now have a better understanding of what
you're dealing with in the department. Thank you. Okay, let
me add this or let me share this information. Great. Thanks,
Now I've got that boss. This is our direction. This
is my suggestion of a sudden there's real texture to
get into the point really quick. And for me, I

(53:04):
think that the biggest game changer in the action review
process for a coach, for a business, a leader, a manager,
department manager is for them and captains on a pitch
or court in players is so identify the source of
where the breakdown is and put an intervention in that
isn't taking over. The intervention is filling the gap to

(53:25):
allow them now to connect to the next stage. And
this is what the action review process does. So well,
we're not guessing why was there a problem? Great example
leaving an elite sport international level. Can't mention teams, but
I'd say with three of the last international teams I
worked with, the issues they had was a coach was
looking at the outcome. They were seeing a constant like

(53:47):
the defense line was being broken or someone was scoring
So what they did was they said, actually, they don't
know this tactic, so we're going to spend more time
on this tactic. It was a defensive tactic, mid field, whatever,
mid court. But actually when I asked them, well, what's
the sauce? So you're saying the tactics not working, the

(54:08):
opposition is breaking you down. Where is the source? And
they couldn't answer it. Okay, let's use the action review process.
Put the video up. Okay, where are you seeing? What
questions have you asked these players on one to one videos?
And when they've recorded the video of the one to
one it's pretty much the coach being dominant. They might
have asked a question, but then they're directing an yes,

(54:28):
great athlete, but see this. See this as opposed to
saying talk to me about that. Taught me for it
now and the athlete actually saying on that one to
one video right at the time, this is what I saw.
I'm seeing something different on the video now because it's
from a different angle, but at the time, this is
what I saw. These were the options identifying and this
is why I went for that. Now the coach has

(54:48):
got data they never had, or they go ah, Okay,
so it's this. It may be oh, I didn't realize
that six foot tall person was stood to your left
and you didn't see our winger free the I can
see it, or I've still in the stand. I can
see it. So there's many variables that this allows people
to grow with. And what we're not doing is we're
not taking the ownership away from the athlete, that manager,

(55:10):
that department. What we're saying is, as you still own this.
I'm the guide now of the big vision. I can
support the gaps, but let me explore and find out
where the gaps are. So now I can support you
in them or direct you to where you can self
manage and fix those gaps. But also when you're self critical,
I can get you to identify what the things you're

(55:32):
doing so well that you may have missed that you
haven't realized you're doing so much better just because you
haven't seen an outcome performance yet, but actually look at
what you're doing better now it's going to come.

Speaker 1 (55:43):
Remember one of your clients working internationally using the action
review process and discovered through the action review process with
the athlete. I remember him saying this distinctly in the room.
I had this like horrible sinking feeling in my stomach
because I realized he doesn't understand the tactic. Yeah, he

(56:08):
hadn't seen it because he doesn't understand the tactic. And
it was only through the action review because all of
it yeah, question, yeah, yeah, get it, yeah yeah yeah,
all that sort of stuff, and then it came to
the action and it's doing something completely different. Couldn't understand why,
and the action review was they just perceived the information
an entirely different way. So the communication had been made,
but the person hadn't learned. And so that was the

(56:31):
action review process. And that's the power of it is
you know you're because it's a genuine two way dialogue.
And it's not just a question of passive athlete going yes, boss, yes, boss,
I know what you're saying, because they're afraid of if
they say no, they'll look silly and they'll get de
selected or whatever it might be. The action review process
actually surfaces important information and insights that then leader, manager,

(56:53):
coach can use to then adjust the strategy, the tactics
and then enable that individual to perform. And fundament wasn't
that individual's fault that they weren't performing you know, classically
people go, well, that's an error, that's a system error. No, no, no,
that was that was an error on behalf of.

Speaker 4 (57:09):
The coach who hadn't ensured that the individual understood their
role in the system in these situations, because systems only
work if the people who are executing them actually what's going.

Speaker 3 (57:20):
On there, And that example is no o the other
coaches spotted it. They were still looking at blame. They
were still looking to do this again and again. And
it was only you know, when we went through this
with that coach and then he looked back at the
same video goes, oh my god, the light bulb went off, goes,
this is what I've been doing. No wonder the point.
I mean, that was a great example where it was

(57:41):
an international match and that very element lost them the match,
that one thing, and everyone's now on blame as opposed
to or hang on a minute where it was the
source of that. Because sometimes you'll just lose a game
and there's no one's fault. It's just one of those things.
But if you can identify, actually, that's something I need
to do better as a just not doing more tactics,

(58:01):
it's not doing more drills, it's not doing more technical
on this element. There's an understanding issue that I didn't
give the athlete athletes the freedom and the pressure load
in not in short term recall, but in game situation
to test where the weak links were. Now I've got data,

(58:22):
so now I can build that. But actually I need
them to know how to quantify and qualify the choices
and execution are making not think what does coach want
to hear? Now? Not listening to coach checking up another
video on the board. Same as in business and management managers,
I've seen real lose it because I go, I've told
you already in this situation you need to do that,

(58:43):
and it's black and white and so clear to the
boss's head, and the person's thinking there and go okay, yeah, yeah, yeah,
and they're walking out and go I still don't agree,
or I still don't understand it.

Speaker 1 (58:54):
Or actually I am doing I don't know how to
do it.

Speaker 3 (58:57):
Yeah skill, Yeah, they think sometimes they think they're doing it,
but because we've not taught them the variables, they're just going, well,
boss wants me to do this. But what they haven't
understood is, well, hang on, there's some options here. What's
influencing your choice. I have no idea because the boss
just sells me to do this. Okay, Well, this is
where that we link it. So let's share with you

(59:19):
and understanding of the influencers to allow you to make
the choice. And let me give permission these choices you
can make without me. If it comes to this choice,
just give me a heads up, a quick phone call.
I'm in this situation. Use the action review process. M
I want to make this choice. You said to check
with your first. You're okay with that, boss, Yes, I'm
okay with that. Lay it down the line. You can
do all of them. You don't need to check with me.

(59:40):
And that's that sliding scale of ownership we talk about.

Speaker 1 (59:44):
Yeah, and there's there's an important point there which is
and this is something to probably pick up on. We
don't even touched this. Pick up on it in the
next probably the next episode, which is about actually talking
through the what ifs, you know, because actually you might
agree to a course of action, but in the dynamics
of you know, day to day business life, day to

(01:00:06):
day sporting matches, whatever it might be, things change, and
so you have to work through what some of those
parameters are and what the what ifs are. You don't
want individuals having to always refer to the boss and
make the decision. But again there may be times when
that is appropriate because this is a brand new situation.
But generally speaking, if you've worked through the what ifs,
you've got a really empowered employee and empowered athlete who's

(01:00:28):
making decision line you know what they're doing, have a
real clarity, they can really perform, and if they're looking
to the sideline or they're ringing up or asking for
questions and going upstairs to see what does the boss say,
then you know that's not really a person who's can
make live decisions. It's not a really efficient or effective workforce.
What if the boss isn't there, does everything grow into
a halt. So these are problems that some people exist.

(01:00:50):
The other thing is just going to quickly say and
I think this is this is something that's really important.
Is a lot of what you talked about there around
you know, people asking for permission, so to speak, and
those dynamics and people agreeing and nodding because they're fearful
of suggesting that they don't understand because it would make
them look like they're not competent enough, and they might

(01:01:13):
either get de selected or fired or put on a
performance review program or whatever that might be. And that's
a lot about psychological safety, and a lot spoken about
psychological safety, particularly in a sports world, and this idea
of creating a culture with psychological safety, it's a bit
of a nebulous idea. But I also think when the
fact that we talk about psychological safety is for me

(01:01:36):
a really strong indicator of the fact that there is
a problem within an environment and within a culture. And
often the problem isn't necessarily because people are evil or
mean or like they just haven't got a framework to

(01:01:57):
communicate with individuals enables them to be empowered and to
have a robust and well, you know, a kind of
a decent dialogue around how we need to solve these
different problems. People don't feel empowered, they don't feel like
they've got, you know, the right to have those sorts
of conversations to say openly, actually i'm not sure about that.

(01:02:19):
Just explain that again for me, or I'm not sure
about that, or what happens if this situation having oh okay, so,
and if you've got that kind of genuine open dialogue
so those individuals are beginning to sort of like self manage,
self direct, self organized under constraints, which is a big
part of an ecological approach, and where there's lots of synergy.
If you've got that, you've got a really really like

(01:02:40):
high performing team, high performing individual athletes, higherforming individuals within organizations,
high performing business, and those people they feel whatever psychologically
safe means because you've built this dialogue framework, You've given
people the tools to have that conversation, You've been clear
about expectations, you've set the uaes, You've been really honest

(01:03:04):
with each other about what you expect, what they expect
from you, what you expect from them. That's where psychological
safety comes from. It comes from these ingredients and tools, frameworks,
methods for communication. It's not an idea that you go in, right,
We're going to do some psychological safety workshop today, or
it's just not that right. So I just want to
say performance cultures are based on some of these fundamental

(01:03:25):
basics and building blocks. And I'm saying performance in any context.
It can be performance in a really small community context,
it can be can performance in a higher context. And actually,
I've got a really difficult conversation this evening where some
people in my community club, recreational people who are really
unhappy with some decisions that have been made, and some
of that's because there hasn't been this sort of dialogue

(01:03:48):
in place. And I'm going to be using some of
this when I go into that really tough steelcage death
match of a meeting this evening with a load of meaning,
well meaning volunteers.

Speaker 3 (01:03:57):
There's some critical markers in what you've just said there,
and some texture elements as well. The first one, the
critical marker is if you're the boss or the one
that's managing that scenario, you've got to honor. So if
someone says, Coach, you don't understand this, or Boss, no,
I'm still not sure you can't, then just go, well,

(01:04:20):
you just need to do this. You've got to now
honor your part. And the beauty of it is is
when there's texture. Initially, if someone says, hmm, I've never
said to the boss in the meeting, I don't quite
agree with that boss, or I'm not sure about that,
and now this is the first time I'm going to
say it, that boss needs to go. I need it

(01:04:40):
on them. I need to be my excellence right now.
So the first time someone does it, that boss has
to be going, okay, well let's talk through it. What
don't you understand? Or talk me through what you're seeing.
So now they can use the action a bit. Well,
this is what i'm seeing, this is what we're working with.
These are the only options I'm seeing. Here's the problem
with those options, here's the impactors. So this is why

(01:05:03):
in that situation, I'm preferring this one. So now the
boss is going, right, you're owning this, but you give
me something to really have a discussion about that I
may not even been aware of because you're the specialist
and an error. I'm just a big picture here. The
detail you're going to have I may not have. The
text you would be is when someone the boss is
going everyone clear, and someone doesn't isn't clear, then they're

(01:05:27):
proactive in that so they go I think I'm clear, boss,
or I'm not sure? Can I work a scenario through
with you? And then they use the action review says right,
this is a situation. Let me take you through how
I'm seeing it, and they use the action review process
and then you go, okay, are you seeing any the
different boss or I'm missing something so straight away. Now

(01:05:50):
they're being proactive in sharing the data to help the
clarity process. And I think the third element for that
is it's something I still need to get better at
is and I have improved, but I'm still on a
mission to get better. Is. There's often are going to
organizations and they'll go, yeah, we're transparent, Mark, yet you
can challenge me. Yet if we don't, you know, agree,

(01:06:11):
we're not sure, we'll asking. I'm as you know, my
deliver is all about interaction and going come on, challenge me.
I'm good, Fine, you know what do you think? But
there's still times when people are still not being honest
with me. They're going, yeah, I've got it, Yeah, we're
up for this. This is great, and then they're wandering
away and they're not doing it. But one of the
reason I'm doing is they weren't seeing a value of it,

(01:06:34):
or they just felt, oh, you were a bit coming on,
a bit too strong. Then Mark, this is too much
for me on this process. So it's it's difficult because
you can't always read the room from first impact, you know,
first intervention, because some people put on her face, you know,
especially new etc. So sometimes It takes time before you've

(01:06:57):
gone right, I'm stepping away now, I'm scanning. Okay, the
behaviors aren't allied to what with the greed? Now we
have that firm, fair and friendly conversation to explore in
an inquisitive way. Okay, what were the barriers? You know?
Remind me what we agreed, not in a telling off way,
but what's prevented it? Now? You know? Was it me?
Did I not sell it well enough? Was it a

(01:07:19):
lack of understanding? You know, where there are things obstacles
that you weren't aware of. Did you reach out when
you saw an obscle like we agreed, you know, let's
find out what it is. This is not a telling off,
it's an exploration right now, and still at that point
some people still won't be honest. You'll get more, but
sometimes it takes me longer. So I need to find

(01:07:40):
a way to accelerate that. And it may be I can't.
It may be, you know, there's so many dynamics and
I'm not with them. Twenty four to seven, I'm still
a stranger coming in that. It does take that time
before people go, oh, I can say what I think
and no one's gonna think bad of me, or no
one's going to be in a huff for the next week,
or not speak to me, which happens in some of

(01:08:01):
the environments I'm going into. People literally hate each other
but they're working the same department and everyone knows, but
no one's dealing with it.

Speaker 1 (01:08:10):
Yeah, yeah, yeah. And also remember there's people who've got
that sort of cognitive dissonance where you know, on a
conceptual level, yes, yes, yes, yes, yes, brought in, but
then their own sort of personality is such that they
just can't follow through and they require quite a lot
of work because they have to change who they are.

(01:08:32):
But I'm conscious we're up on time, and this I
think is a part two because you've just alluded to.
I think one of the things I found most powerful
in the latest module was there's a particular slide with
a loads of different questions that you can ask. I
think they're really useful, and I think we should come
onto that. So I think we're probably going to do
ARP Part two in the next episode because I think

(01:08:53):
some of those dynamics are interesting from us to one pick. Right,
So before we wrap before Christmas, you promised that what
I promised but you announced that there was a we
were doing a big kind of giveaway competition. Remind everybody
of what that involves, and then I'll and then we

(01:09:14):
can tell everybody how they can enter.

Speaker 3 (01:09:17):
So we had this is going to chance my recall
on what percentages they were now, but the first prize
that we will pull out of the hat on our
next chat in two weeks time is a free one
to one zoom with me on any area of performance
mentoring that you'd like, business, education, sport, makes no difference.

(01:09:39):
Plus that person, it was either ninety or ninety five
percent off the members area. Do you remember which one
it was?

Speaker 1 (01:09:46):
Yeah, I'll put it up in the transfer, okay.

Speaker 3 (01:09:48):
And then the runners up will get a I believe
it was seventy five percent off the members area. And
so long as you stay a member, you get that
for life. It's not like you just get that for
the first year. That's you're stuck with that unless you
decide to not stay a member anymore. So the things
you need to do in order to get an opportunity,

(01:10:09):
and obviously this is going to be far easier to
win than the IMA's house that I've never won so far,
and I do my ten pounds a month. I'm still
hopeful that you never know is you need to do
three elements. So first is subscribe to this YouTube channel
if you haven't already, and subscribe to my website Bdscoaching

(01:10:29):
dot com. And then there's another element, Stuart, and what
is it they need to type into underneath this and
the comments.

Speaker 1 (01:10:39):
I'm just going to put it up on the screen.
Now go with me. Here you go. So you need
to subscribe my website pdioscation dot com and subscribe to
YouTube channel and type count me in in the comments below,
and we're going to announce the winning on the next show,
which will be the twenty second of January.

Speaker 3 (01:10:56):
Yes, and as you see when you're listening through this,
the over one hundreds, I don't think there is another resource.
And every member that's been on there, it's given feedback,
is another resource. That's the level of depth that this
members areas when it comes to need centered coach and
when it comes to the software to enhance you as
a manager, a leader, a teacher and a coach and

(01:11:18):
even develop great decision makers and teams. So I am
not selling it well enough, I've been told, but get
inside there explore it, but it is years and years
of resources and support. Where are you sed to it?
In just the action review process chapter, which I think
it's got sixteen lessons in it, which is just one
of many.

Speaker 1 (01:11:38):
Yeah, so I've got about halfway through, i think, in
the time since the last episode into this episode. Some
of them are not quite nice. They're punchy and short,
and you can get into them. And there's some videos,
and I think the videos are really powerful. They really
bring it to life and you can really see how
it works. And for me, you know, practically and also

(01:11:59):
being relatively visual in my kind of learning outlook, I
really it really was useful to them to see the
theory of it actually applied in context. And there's a
really nice one that really jumps out of me, which
is where the coach has the players doing their action
review on his performance and then him self reviewing, And

(01:12:21):
I mean that's just one of the most powerful things
I've seen, and from a kind of play their way,
children's rights, children's voice perspective, it's a really really good
model of how coaches can create that brilliant, dynamic environment
with their athletes.

Speaker 3 (01:12:36):
And that's a big shout out to Ego soccer that's
been living this now and they're global, But all of
those videos are raw footage of actual training sessions and matches.
They are not set up for the purpose of the
membership thereer, so that is real. They are real kids,
real coaches living there every single week, and which is
what culture is about, right, It's about living it.

Speaker 1 (01:12:59):
Mark joy to really enjoyed this one. I've enjoyed working
through the sessions during my downtime and my my, what
would we What we pre agreed as acceptable was for
me to just go through less than one, but I
tried to strive for exceptional and went into sort of
six lessons I think with comments under each one, which

(01:13:19):
is which would be pretty good. So we're making progress,
but I do still need to finish those off, and
I do want to come back in our next episode
to do a little bit of a recap on where
we've got to with those with that, because there's definitely
some of the bits and pieces of nuggets that I
want to be able to draw out for people. I
think you're really useful.

Speaker 3 (01:13:37):
Awesome, Thanks Jet, She'll see by.

Speaker 2 (01:13:48):
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