"We coach like we train ballet dancers - but tennis is an MMA fight" - a conversation with Steve Whelan - The Talent Equation Podcast

Episode Transcript
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Speaker 1 (00:00):
Hi everyone, Stewart here before we get into today's podcast,
I wonder if I can ask you to do me
a favor. I'm hoping that I can get the podcast
to grow to a wider audience. But further it goes,
the more people that it can impact. I often get
letters of messages on social media from many of the
listeners who often talk to me about the impact it's
had on them and the people that they work with.
Sometimes that impact goes as far as family members and

(00:23):
relationships that you hold. I'm hoping that I can get
that message out call wider audience.

Speaker 2 (00:27):
Now.

Speaker 1 (00:27):
Obviously, the more people that listen, the more impact the
show can have, but also the more people that subscribe
and download, then that helps me to invest in the
show and put out more content. As you know, my
podcasting of late's been a little bit sporadic, say the least,
and that's partly due to the fact that I've just
been struggling with capacity. Now I'm hoping to be able
to enlist some help so that I can improve the
quality and improve the amount of podcasts I put out there.

(00:49):
But I can only do that with your help. To
please share it far and wide, you know, use social
media if you want to use your networks through WhatsApp
or other messaging channels that you use, or even if
you're face to pay with people, conferences, seminars, those sorts
of places, let them know about it, encourage them to
sign up and listen. Now, I've got loads of ideas
for a new ways to take the show. I want
to bring on new co hosts other than the world

(01:10):
famous Flow the Dog. I want to do some live
streamed episodes that people can interact with and do Q
and as live Q and a's, and I'm also thinking
about doing live podcasts from conferences as well as bringing
on some big name guests. But I can only do
that with your support. Every single subscription is a massive benefit. Now,
if you want to go a bit further than that,
then there is a Patreon page, and if you go

(01:30):
to the Patreon page, there's opportunities for you to buy
me the equivalent of a cup of coffee. If you're
are to do then that's amazing and that's massively supportive,
but it's not essential. The main thing is if you
could just take the time to share it on your
social media channels or share the episode with somebody that
you know and if you find some value in it,
then pass it on to others and pay it forward.
And if you can do that, I'd be enormously grateful.

(01:53):
Thanks in advance via support.

Speaker 3 (01:56):
Welcome to the Townent Equation Podcast. If you are passionate
about helping young people to leash their potential and want
to find ways to do that better, then you've come
to the right place. The Talent Equation podcast seeks to
answer the important questions facing parents, coaches, and talent developers

(02:17):
as they try to help young people become the best
they can be. This is a series of unscripted, unpolished
conversations between people at the razor's edge of the talent
community who are prepared to share their knowledge, experiences and
challenges in an effort to help others get better faster. Listen, reflect,

(02:38):
and don't forget to join the discussion at the Talent
Equation dot co dot UK. Enjoy the show.

Speaker 1 (03:03):
All right then, really looking forward to this one. Steve
When and welcome to Talent.

Speaker 4 (03:09):
A glazing Stuart. Thank you.

Speaker 5 (03:11):
I'm guessing you get this all the time, but I'm
a massive fan, so this is a bit surreal talking
to you this morning.

Speaker 4 (03:16):
My friend.

Speaker 5 (03:17):
I feel like I've known you for years and my
year for the past four or five years in the
car journeys.

Speaker 4 (03:23):
So if I if you.

Speaker 5 (03:25):
Get the feel like I know you, it's yeah, it's
it's pretty much true. But yeah, huge, thanks for inviting
me on, and yeah, great privilege.

Speaker 1 (03:34):
Well I'm well, I'm delighted to have you on because,
as I said before we started recording, you're blazing a
trail and you know you're out there at least, and
so you're talking about alternative pedagogical approaches and you're doing
so I can imagine getting a fair amount of pushback
and flat because I certainly have over my years. But

(03:55):
there's more we jump into all of that. Tell us
you tell me your story a little bit. You know,
it was your background and how you got into this game,
and why you coach and why you coach the way
you coach. That's kind of the question I ask everybody
who comes on the show more or less. So, yeah,
tell me the background.

Speaker 4 (04:12):
It's bother me.

Speaker 5 (04:13):
It's quite a nonlinear process because I didn't play tennis
growing up. I played football, and I played football to
a decent level, and I just played tennis with mates
and played tennis in the off season and obviously around
Wimbledon time, and I got into tennis sort of little
back door. I did a work experience placement at the

(04:34):
leisure center when I was sixteen, and the general manager
took a liking to me and he asked if i'd
be a multi sports coach for the summer camp. And
I agreed, obviously because I needed the money. It was
I was sixteen, I had no money at the time,
and they had tennis on and when they said which
coach wants to take tennis, no one put the hand up.
Because I grew up from Berkenhead, and Berkenhead just over

(04:56):
the road from over the water from Liverpool. Nine percent
of kids played football, and because it was a local
authority laser center, no one played tennis because even sort
of back again, like no one really played tennis. It
was seen as a bit of a posh sport in
my area. So I put my hand up to the yeah,
I'll take it. I can play a little bit of tennis.
I know roughly the rules of the games and stuff,

(05:19):
and the kids loved it. And we didn't do anything
sort of unique. We just played the game. We just
played matches, and I just replicated the stuff that I
did with my friends over the years, and the leisure
center manager got feedback that I was really good, and
he said, well, we'll pay for your level for us
was the DCA, I think back then, and we'll link

(05:40):
you up with the tennis center down the road and
you can go and shadow some tennis coaches. And yeah,
I was off and running. So it was a complete
backdoor route because most coaches who I work with or
see an education now, they're all players or they've all
played the game to a various decent level. And then
there's just me us football, all scruffy kid from barking Head,

(06:02):
sort of walking on the court and saying them a
tennis coach show. It was a bit of a backdoor entry,
to be honest.

Speaker 1 (06:11):
Exactly what you're talking about. My parents are from Birkenhead,
so I spent a lot of a lot of my
child childhood in and around Prenton and flatter Bridge, in
all those areas. But obviously my dad was a Mersey pilot,
so we moved over to North Wales like a lot
of people from that area, did you know, because it

(06:32):
was a bit a bit up and coming at that point,
wasn't it. Yes, I'm a plastic scouster really anyway, Okay,
so now this is interesting. I'm curious about this because
so you've got no preconceptions about what coaching looks like,
necessarily because you haven't gone through that whole journey of expecting,

(06:52):
you know, there to be a basket and balls and
someone to and you practice and hit and all that stuff,
which was normalized stuff. So you didn't have any of
those reconceptions. You just came at it from a basically
like a street sort of street experience and then went
from there.

Speaker 5 (07:08):
Yeah, And to be honest, when I got into coaching,
it made no sense because I grew up playing the
game and just playing tournaments from my mates, and we
never did drills. We never stood there, went you know what,
I'm going to feed you ten ten spores? Can you
hit them back? It was right, I'm playing you. This
is a semi final of Wimbledon.

Speaker 4 (07:29):
Let's play.

Speaker 5 (07:30):
And when I went into coaching and coach education, I
remember my first day on the course, say, institutor, it's
just how you really coach, because it was Okay, we
need to isolate the skill. We're going to basket feed
to develop the technique, and I was like, this is
so alien to me. And of course I had all
the comments of my technique wasn't correct and I needed

(07:51):
to improve my playing standard. And I was really lucky
to be fair though, because the tutor on the course,
Joe Hagen, she ended up being a good friend of mine.
She said to me, listen, you're not player, but you
don't need to be a player.

Speaker 4 (08:02):
You need to be a good coach.

Speaker 5 (08:04):
So what you say your communication, your coaches are your lens,
work on that rather than your game. And but other
coaches around me saying no, you've got to improve beforehand, and
yourself's not that good and people are going to make
fun of you.

Speaker 4 (08:18):
But Joe said to me, I forget.

Speaker 5 (08:19):
All the noise like you are, well, I'm going to
hire a tennis coach or educated tennis coach, make your
coaching really strong, and sort of I sort of jumped
in that way, but yeah, there was no sort of
I had no previous knowledge. And I know you've said
it on the podcast before. Most coaches coach the way
they do because that's how they were coached. Was I
went in completely fresh, but then the peer pressure around

(08:41):
me was quite severe because I went into a tennis
into with six seven national coaches and they were all
basket feeding and shouting and intensity and perfect technique. And
then yeah, the street tennis coach there was was sort
of doing even back then, I was doing game based
stuff because, like I said, the technical stuff one, I
didn't have the technical knowledge at that time either, so

(09:03):
I just may sort of do what I had a
knowledge I had at all. This is how you win
tennis points, this is how you play the game kind
of thing. So, yeah, it was an interesting start, to
be fair.

Speaker 2 (09:16):
The thing as well.

Speaker 1 (09:16):
It is just when you think about that, like that
point sort of ones when you think about the constraints,
So you're constrained by what what is perceived to be
a lack of knowledge, are you lack of technical knowledge
which affords an alternative paradigm around coaching the game work
backwards from the game. And this is the irony, isn't
it is that you would have had so many people

(09:37):
over the years because it was the dominant sort of
skill acquisition paradigm, you know, kind of looking down their
noses saying, oh, you don't really know what you're doing.

Speaker 2 (09:45):
This is the white way.

Speaker 1 (09:46):
To build skill, you have to develop you know, isolated
techniques in these in theig ways and then you build
that way.

Speaker 2 (09:52):
And the reality being, of.

Speaker 1 (09:54):
Course that all along there was this alternative sort of
research paradigm that very few people are we're exposed to
why because it's not what people are exposed to. And
that's the frustration I have very often when people again
sniffily say things like it depends, Yeah, if it depends,
And if it is about using professional judgment, then it's

(10:16):
got to be based on you've been given a good
degree of understanding all the varying difference skill acquisition approaches
in order to make an effective.

Speaker 2 (10:24):
Pre professional judgment. But very few people have.

Speaker 1 (10:27):
They've either been given because of their educational systems, which
are predominantly dominate the one thing they've given that, or
that's what's around them. Let you say, the peer group pressure.
So whether you whether you like it, takes an awful
lot to resist that.

Speaker 2 (10:40):
You know, either you've got.

Speaker 1 (10:41):
To you've got to really believe in your beliefs, or
or you've just got to sort of say, well, actually
I think I like it this way, and this is
all you get some people around you giving you support
and say no, keep doing what you're doing.

Speaker 2 (10:51):
It's all right.

Speaker 1 (10:52):
You know you're on the right lines this. If you
don't have those causes, people you just conform, don't youse,
it's natural. How did you resist conforming by the way,
or did you go through a process of conforming and
then break away again once you'd sort of experienced both sides.

Speaker 5 (11:06):
It was interesting because when I first started, I was
just giving in the sessions noone else wanted. And what
was really interesting I developed some players. So my players
started within county championships and then it was a case
of oh, maybe he does He's onto something here. But
once I started getting some success with players, I was

(11:27):
then pushed towards more of a traditional model because every
time my players would go to a national government body camp,
the feedback will come back, or the technique's not good enough,
the serve isn't where it should be. The forehand grip
needs to change. So I find myself falling in line
because I felt my players were being let down by

(11:48):
me a little bit. So for eighteen years there was
always this battle in my mind of this is what
I'm going after, but this is what the national government
body want from the players, and obviously, once they go
to the camps and get the reports, the parents then
go to me, well, you need to work on that
technique because that's what the national governed body, national.

Speaker 4 (12:06):
Coach is saying.

Speaker 5 (12:07):
So for eighteen years I had this constant battle on
my head of what I perceived coaching and what I
was being told coaching was. And it came to a
head in twenty nineteen and I was going to walk
away from coaching because the stress levels were just so
high from working in that landscape of the player pathway.

Speaker 4 (12:27):
And there was a real sort of defining moment.

Speaker 5 (12:30):
I was working with a young player and we're working
on their serve because obviously their report from a national
camp was the serve wasn't good enough. And we spent
i'd say six to eight weeks working on this serve,
really technical, really isolated, and after six to eight weeks
it looked really good.

Speaker 4 (12:48):
So we decided to put them into a tournament.

Speaker 5 (12:50):
I would go to the tournament with the parents to
see how the serve were towed up under match conditions.
And we get there to the tournament and me and
the parents are sitting at the side and we're all
nudging each other because we're really excited, and the players
really excited.

Speaker 4 (13:05):
He's put all this work in. He wins the spin.

Speaker 5 (13:09):
And he elects to serve, and we're all smile at
each other, go and this is going to be good.
We've put a lot of work in here, a lot
of hours. Throws the ball up, hits the net, throws
the ball up, double fault, hits freedable faults in the room.
And then it's I'm looking at the parents and they're
looking at me. Am I going, oh, no, what have

(13:31):
we done? And I drove home from that tournament and sorry.
He lost the match. He literally couldn't get the serving,
and if he got the serving, he just sort of
tapped it in and it was killed side. And I
drove home from the match, and I did what I
think most coaches do.

Speaker 4 (13:45):
I blamed the player.

Speaker 5 (13:47):
He couldn't hold up under pressure, all that hard work.
He didn't try hard enough. And at the time lockdown happened,
so we had some time to reflect, and I was
thinking about myself for that point, and I was gonna
walk away from it because I just had enough by
that point. Okay, it's not the technical stuff, because I'm
quite good at technique. I've done lots of stuff on

(14:07):
bio mechanics. It's not the tactics, it's not just mental.
The physical must be the mental stuff. So I thought
that the player was just mentally weak, and I thought, well,
as I've got some time over over the next couple
of months, I'll do an online psychology course. I did
this online psychology course, and it was horrendous. It was

(14:30):
so bad because they were giving me these phrases that
I didn't understand because I'm not academic whatsoever. And I'd
spend more time writing down these phrases and then going
on YouTube and just searching the phrases and trying to
get some context and video form. And what happened was
I was writing down some notes off the video and

(14:50):
a video also played by Rick Shuttleworth, and it was
just playing in the background and he was mentioning stuff
like learning through through playing the game and just thhinkled
constraints and if we can strain things, and I was like,
that almost sounds like how I grew up, because I
grew up playing games, and I learned how to play

(15:12):
tennis playing games.

Speaker 4 (15:14):
And that was the turning point. And it was a
case of.

Speaker 5 (15:18):
Okay, one, I feel really let down because no one's
ever mentioned constraints to me in eighteen years of coach education.
No one's even mentioned this, this sort of different approach whatsoever.
And that's when I started to go back towards a
play based model of coaching. So a bit of a
long story, but that's sort of. It was like eighteen

(15:40):
years of fall in line, then having that breaking point
and that very random video playing on YouTube that started
me on this new journey in his new path.

Speaker 1 (15:52):
Wow, there's so much to talk about as far as
that's concerned. Just second to prep pause, So so so
much to talk about there. In particular, there's a notion
that I think this must happen all the time. So

(16:13):
as you know, I worked in golf for a long time,
and the same things happen all the.

Speaker 2 (16:17):
Time in golf, where.

Speaker 1 (16:21):
Players who didn't necessarily have the opportunity to have quite
have that much coaching, or if they did, it was
sort of infrequent, fairly stuff. I mean, golf's quite technical
as well, and be well, it's pretty It seems to
individual sports tend to lend themselves to this sort of
technique way of doing things. Obviously, the dynamics of team games,
people are sort of I guess for the think that

(16:41):
you know, they understand there's going to be a bit
more chaos. But when it's an individual sport, even an
individual sport with an opponent, it tends to be that
everything gets minute guy doesn't it, and everyone gets really
super analyzed anyway. But one thing I noticed was like
the kids would go to the national camps and the
national coaches would like, you know, to scratch their chins
and then be like, oh no, wait, techniques is not

(17:01):
quite right. And it again through this whole thing of
looking at human performance through the technical lens and the aesthetics,
and so it's not necessarily even looking at like the
performance like you know, is this particular techniques you know?

(17:24):
Or is it particular skill? Is it performing? Is it delivering?
Is it achieving the goals of the individual. It's more
that it doesn't look right, or it's or it might
also be that you know, it needs to Maybe it's
not that it's a technical issue.

Speaker 2 (17:39):
It's more that we.

Speaker 1 (17:40):
Need to enable the individual to maybe improve their repertoire
or develop more power or whatever. It might be fine,
but talk about it in those terms. Talk about it
in terms of the outcome. It needs to generate the
game outcome. It needs to generate, not that it needs
to technically be better, like visually technically be better. It

(18:00):
needs to perform matter. And it's really strange to me
how that's so like, that's so hard to break. People
are so crapped by that thinking and then the effect
it has on both a player and I mean just
imagine like you had a bit more knowledge, right, or
you happen to stumble across some knowledge. But how many
people are out there going with the same thing. Eighteen

(18:23):
years of argumentation in your brain about what needs to
be performed and what needs to be delivered. It's like,
that's so stressful.

Speaker 4 (18:33):
Yeah it is.

Speaker 5 (18:33):
And even quite recently, sort of eighteen months ago, I
had the same issue where a player went to a
regional camp and his service action was a bit like
a cricket ball, so his elbow was relatively straight. It
wasn't the classic ninety degrees that it should be, apparently,
And he got this report back from the regional coach
and as parents were going crazy saying you need to

(18:55):
fix it, replied to parents as well, he's winning matches,
like he's he's getting serves in, he's winning first serve points.
He's successful now, and this player was nine at the time,
and like, we don't know how he's going to develop,
like when he hits pub his action is going to

(19:17):
change massively anyway, Like we don't know what type of
body he's going to have in three or four years.
And I fed that back to the regional coach, and
the regional coach at the time, yes, but all the
players around.

Speaker 4 (19:31):
Him have that elbow bend.

Speaker 5 (19:33):
And I was like, that's probably not the best sort
of context to use, because again, like you said, there,
he's winning, he's performing with that quote unquote action. And
I remember quoting back to the regional coach was well
back in eighteen the late eighteen hundreds, someone served over
armed for the first time and everyone said that was

(19:54):
weird and it will never catch on. Now I'm not
saying a bowling action will catch on, but you can't
look it's something and go that's not It just doesn't
look right. If like you said, there, you're getting the performance.
And later on, when he does develop and he goes
through puberty, then okay, it might change anyway, but it

(20:14):
still happens till today, where again the LTA released something
recently about how they look for talent or or play
a pathway and the first thing that on the board
is technical technical base and it's like wow, like this
is twenty twenty five and there's so much stuff out
there to show that again, these kids are changing day

(20:35):
by day, like we have no idea what that player
is going to look like next week, never mind in
four or five years. So it's it's still that traditional
tennis a bit like golf. You're saying that it is
a way of playing that's more effective.

Speaker 4 (20:49):
It's crazy.

Speaker 1 (20:51):
What's really interesting, though, is whenever you read the biographies
of the greats or you know, those who've been one
of the things they nearly always talk about is a
childhood full of experimental play, similar to what you talked about,
you know, those pickup games almost. I mean, you know,
you're you're sort of tennis upbringing similar to mine. I

(21:13):
was that kid that you know, Wimbledon came on the
telly and there I was, you know, at our tennis
courts at the you know, they were pretty ramshackle up
at the school, but you could be on there were
free and you could be on them, and you know
it took a bit of work to get the next
level and this that and the other, but it was
like I'm taking on all comers. Never never thought about
playing doubles. You never saw it. It was always singles, and

(21:33):
I would play from nine in the morning, you know,
sometime till nine at night. You know, you'd be dragging
me off. But it was just some of the best times.

Speaker 2 (21:43):
Just you know, when you get.

Speaker 1 (21:44):
A good game against a good, good opponent and you're
having a proper ding dong.

Speaker 2 (21:48):
It was the best.

Speaker 1 (21:49):
And probably similar to you, you know, I had different problems,
probably with my approach.

Speaker 2 (21:55):
And this that and the other.

Speaker 1 (21:56):
You know, I had a falling apart beyond board Book
of Tennis by my bed, you know, which gave me
some ideas about the way I was going to play
and all that sort of stuff.

Speaker 2 (22:05):
Never developed. The double handed back end.

Speaker 1 (22:07):
Always wanted that classical, classical, beautiful, flowing, single handed topspin
back I've never quite never quite got that as good
as it could be. Not got too bad, but that
whole kind of play. And you know, I believe if
I had the redulse, if I had the resources, but
I got rated. I tried to get rated at one stage,

(22:27):
and I got rated, But you couldn't play. I couldn't
get to tournament's com parents couldn't take me the working.
But if I reckon, if I could have got on
to the sort of circuit, so to speak, I reckon,
I would have done all right. Because I was a
good match player, I'd find a way to win. I
could kind of beat anybody once I worked out what
their s friends and weaknesses were, and then i'd have

(22:47):
a strategy to beat anybody. I could serve and volley,
I could chip and charge. I could play from the baseline.
I could love, I could play that, I could do
all sorts of different ways to play. Why because you
have to do, don't you.

Speaker 2 (22:58):
So?

Speaker 1 (22:58):
It just it's just faster to me that you're right, Like,
how is it? Let you say, it's twenty twenty five.
Why can't we open our minds to some different ways
of thinking and operating?

Speaker 5 (23:09):
And that's a scary thing now for me in this space,
because I look at my players and the amount of
structured tennis they play. There's nothing unstructured no more. They're
just having coaching upon coaching upon coaching and all those
skills that you developed and I developed playing with our friends.
These kids aren't getting the opportunity because again, I see
it on a daily basis where you might be doing

(23:30):
a session, you pour off a drop shot and it
goes in, but then the coach is telling you know,
it's wrong because we're not working on drop shot today,
we're working on the forehand cross and like, nob, you
just hit an amazing shot because you've seen the opportunity
for the drop shot. But then these kids are getting
told no, it's wrong because that's not what we're working on.
And that happens on a daily basis, And I'm thinking, like,

(23:50):
it's interesting because tennis coach w always known that our
players now are poor problem solvers and decision makers, and then.

Speaker 4 (23:57):
You watch the normal lesson.

Speaker 5 (24:01):
They're not making decisions, they're not solving problems because they're
just hitting the ball over and over again, and a
bit like yourself, like if I play a match today,
I'll probably find a way to win. And that's the
way I coach my players. Like tennis is relatively simple.
Just put the ball in a position where your opponent
can't get it back. How you achieve that doesn't really matter.
But it's but like kids now, like most of my players,

(24:23):
they don't play any tennis with their friends. It's always
a coach or a parent on the side of the
court telling them how to play. And we wonder why
tennis again. Coaches say tennis players are poor problem solvers
and decision makers because we're not allowing them to have
the freedom to express themselves or find solutions themselves.

Speaker 1 (24:42):
Yeah, and actually, I think it's one of the funnest,
the most fun aspects of sport. We To me, it
always has been anyway, like working out the game, working
out the strategy, working out the ways to play. That's
the things that I find really enjoyable. And maybe that's
because I didn't have access to somebody teaching me technique.

(25:04):
You know, all I had was me and but I
and that's like my natural way of being around anything.
By the way, is I want to work it out.
And if I find I've got an issue, I'll try
and find a solution to it. I'll dig around and
look for right, oh, got problem, Let's find a way
around that, and then look around for different ideas that

(25:25):
are going to help me with my problem. That certain
can be a problem sometimes because you get information you
do need. But fundamentally, like that's kind of the way
I believe humans learn best. You know, you discover something
that's problematic, therefore it has meaning, and there you go
and look for some solutions, and because it's got meaning,

(25:47):
it's really it really resonates, and then it's something that
you've found and you've and you know and you've been
able to to bring whereas so much technically talking to
no I was listening to Marian Davis's podcast You've Come
Across the River Tiger podcast.

Speaker 4 (26:02):
Yes it's really good.

Speaker 2 (26:03):
Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Speaker 1 (26:05):
And I know she's obviously focused on adventure sport and
the questrian, but there's so much transferability. But the latest
one about the order hypothesis, I sent her a message
afterwards just to say, oh, it's really interesting because one
of the things that you've talked about in there with repetition,
and people I think associate repetition with skill, but the
problem is most of the repetition is meaningless because you're

(26:25):
being taught something that somebody else thinks you're going to need.
Whereas if you're doing something that's got meaning either because
it's got an immediate game performance outcome associated with it,
or it's got meaning because you've said to someone I've
discovered this issue. Then immediately it's just so then what
you're then doing is you're repeating meaningful experiences. So repetition

(26:50):
is about, yes, you do need to do repetition, but
you need to do a repetition of meaningful experiences, not
just repetition of actions that have very little meaning. And
so that's for me why they're sort of a model
that you know, obviously we ascribed to is such a
powerful way of experiencing sport physical activity developments, but for anybody.

Speaker 4 (27:12):
Yeah, I meant it to some really good points.

Speaker 5 (27:14):
And I said that that podcast is really good and
I've shared it around a few coaches as well. I
think it's just given the kids opportunities to explore. And
we did an interest experiment, I guess with an underaight
group a few months back. It was the last week
of term, which is our competition week generally where they
play matches. I said to my co coach, well, let's
do something a bit different. So what you're going to do,

(27:36):
because you knows I'm a bit out there with my stuff,
I said, well, let's us say to the kids go
and do what you want.

Speaker 4 (27:42):
The courts are.

Speaker 5 (27:43):
Set up, there's the balls, you got, lines, you got
but and he looked at me like I was crazy. Well,
let us see what they come up with, Stuart. They
all went out and played tennis. They all went out
and played matches, and they had serves and they had
returns and what was really interesting, and I know you've

(28:03):
mentioned this before on the podcast, but if one player
was winning quite a lot, they adapted their own rules.
So it's like, well, I can have two bounces now
and you can only have one, or I'm allowed to touches.
And granted, they have done a little bit of work
with me, so I've shown them some stuff they can do.
But none of them went out and went can we
hit fifty four hands cross court? They all went out

(28:25):
with the opportunity to go and play. And I think sometimes,
and I've mentioned this a lot of coaches, we forget
that these are children.

Speaker 4 (28:36):
They're not professional players.

Speaker 5 (28:38):
And one of the biggest disconnects I think in tennis
is you look at a clip of a professional player
and they'll be drilling.

Speaker 4 (28:44):
Get wimbled in because.

Speaker 5 (28:45):
That's what they're doing in a tournament and they'll look
at and Alcoraz and go, oh, yeah, well Carl Loss
is doing that, So I'll do that with little eight
year old Stewart on a Wednesday night because that's what
the best player in the world's doing. It's a completely
different world and it's a different context as well. But
from my experience, again, kids just want to play. They
just want to go out and explore, like me and

(29:06):
you did their own game. And it was interesting that
session because the parents weren't happy. I'm like, well, we're
paying you to we're paying you to tell them how
to play, and so well not really like the kids
are allowing us to see them how they play, and
they've had the most fun they've had all time because
they were given the freedom and we were there to
make sure you were safe and you weren't doing anything

(29:27):
too crazy. But the parents weren't too happy, but the
kids loved it. And I'm like, well, that's what means
the most to me is if the kids love it, great.
If you don't like it as a parent, then that's
your problem. It's not really my problem. But yeah, I
just thought that was an interesting experiment that we did,
and yeah, it just shows the power to play.

Speaker 1 (29:45):
And so on that subject. So parents are expectation. I
hear this a lot.

Speaker 2 (29:51):
So anybody who has kind of.

Speaker 1 (29:57):
A bought into or adopted, uh, you know, kind of
a non linear pedagogical approach, they they.

Speaker 2 (30:07):
Come across this.

Speaker 1 (30:08):
The parents have an expectation of what they think good
totally should look like mm hm. And they then sometimes
will either you know, challenge and say, hang on a second,
this isn't what I'm paying for, or they'll say although
they've taken somewhere else where, they get something that they imagine,

(30:30):
they look like, how do you go about addressing that?
Because I think actually one of the things that more
and more nonlinear practitioners need to do is to almost
have the the rationale that we all use so that
we can convey that to other people. So it seems
like it's a core skill to be a nonlinear practition

(30:50):
there is to have your your rationale ready.

Speaker 5 (30:55):
It's yeah, it's it's a really I've been probably my
biggest battle over the past four years since I've gone
down this journey of like parents will always say to me, oh,
the kids love your sessions, but when you're gonna work
on technique or yes, it's great what you're doing. It's
great that you're just playing games. But we'll look at
do you other coach next year? And they look like

(31:16):
they're working really hard. On the forehand, they look the
intense and the coach is really shouty.

Speaker 4 (31:22):
Where's your lessons are fun?

Speaker 5 (31:24):
You're not really saying that much and you're not really shouting,
and the players talking a lot, or so my child's
talking a lot, and you're.

Speaker 4 (31:31):
The sort of asking questions.

Speaker 5 (31:34):
And it came to like I've lost a few players
over it at the start because I almost had not
the arrogance, but I went, well, this how I'm coaching,
and this is the reason why I'm coaching it. And
after I lost the sort of the second player to it,
I actually developed a little document and it just says
Steve's ways of working, and it was about what's expected

(31:56):
of me, what my role is. So I'm going to
create problems, the player's jobs solve to find solutions.

Speaker 4 (32:03):
I'm going to ask questions.

Speaker 5 (32:04):
And guide and just put what my role is, what
a lesson might look like, what the player's role is
in that session. So the player's job is to find
solutionstive and have a voice, and their job is to
ask questions as well. And I put in there what
the expectations were and sort of your job is to
understand that this is a process and it may not

(32:28):
look like coaching. And then I put in what a
standard lesson looks like, so or warm up is competitive.
It's start of a serve and returning and play points.
And our practices will sometimes not look like tennis with
some crazy rules and we have two touches. We're playing
in a bigger space than normal, but that's why we're
trying and develop skill. So I have that document now

(32:50):
which I send out to any new parent, and that's
help massively because when parents asked the question, I say, well,
you know how we work. Had that agreement at the start,
so you bought into it.

Speaker 4 (33:02):
There and then, and it's the trust process.

Speaker 5 (33:08):
It's quite interesting now since I've had that document in place,
I've not really had many parents challenge me because I've
almost set out my stall at the start. But you're right,
I think it's important to have that out front and
center because I am an outlier. I work in a
group of eight coaches and I'm the only one who
really as a constraint led approach. Really the rest are
all again not saying it's the right or wrong way,

(33:29):
but all very traditional. So I am under liver bit
of pressure when I'm on those courts next to him,
but the parents buy into it and the way I
sort of open up to the parents with it as well.
I can teach Stuart a forehand. I can teach him
how to hit a forehand absolutely fine, or I teach
him how to use that forehand under pressure, problem, solve decision,

(33:51):
make resilience and he's going to have some fun with it.
So it's like a blue or red pill, like the matrix.
Do you want the perfect forehand or do you want
these las life skills? And it's something I think tennis
doesn't do too well, Like we are coaching life skills
like tennis, like as you know, as complaining yourself. It's
a constant, dynamic movement environment that you've got to really

(34:13):
solve problems and make decisions, and sometimes you make bad
decisions and that hurts, and then you've got to have
the resilience to bounce back. And they're the conversations that
I have with parents now at the start, before I
even started working on court with the player, because if
the parents don't buy into that from day one, it's
going to end up in a in a sort of
disagreement down the line. And you're right, the parents will

(34:34):
just go on to what they think is right and
move on to a different coach.

Speaker 1 (34:41):
You maybe think of something there that's really interesting. One
of the things I really like about some of the
Netflix documentaries you get now that sort of take you
behind the scenes, try to survive. And there's a golf
called Full Swing, and I think it's great points is
that tennis want. One of the things you really see,
to your point about life skills, you really get is

(35:02):
these players, you know that to a certain extent, and
the tennis is the easy bit. It's the everything else. Yeah,
And the ones who really become like serial winners or
serial are the ones who can withstand the partake and

(35:22):
emotional roller coaster that comes with playing an individual sport
that is so exacting, so obviously physically demanding, but also
it's that it's the emotional ups and downs that determine
the outcomes and matches. Really, yes, obviously you've got to
execute points, but you see, you see players don't they
get into the pits of despair and either fight back

(35:45):
or don't, and then they have to deal with the
ramifications and all those sorts of things. And that is
an important component, I think for young people to experience.
And if all you're doing is you know, really quite sanitized,
relatively low stress, you know, kind of rinse and repeat

(36:07):
style technical activities, even if they're a little bit more
representative because you've got the dynamics of the hittings that
and the other, but you're not getting that having to
sort of pick yourself off the ball and hit a
slice backhand with the balls right down by your feet

(36:27):
at a time when you're you know, a breakdown and
looking like you're gonna lose the match like that. That's
what you need to experience, and that doesn't happen. It's
just too sanitized, and I think we're robbing actually in
many ways. That's one of the brilliant things about the game,
you know, is you find out things about yourself, you know,

(36:49):
you understand Like I remember when I again, I'm going
back to my childhood, but my avatar was Michael Chang.
See it was a game up like you wun't necessary
really the best, you know, I mean, he was pretty athletic.

Speaker 2 (37:03):
He just never gave up. He ran everything down.

Speaker 1 (37:06):
He was my avatar because I just love that about
him and because that's something that I aspired to that, right,
So I became that gritty scrappy you know, never say
Die had a warrior type, and that definitely transposed into
other aspects of my life, certainly the gritty scrappy beer.

Speaker 2 (37:27):
But yeah, I mean it's just you know, so I.

Speaker 1 (37:31):
Do think you make it such a good point that
people probably I haven't necessarily appreciated as much. Is that,
you know, sort of the ecological approach that's baked in,
that's like a feature. You need that there otherwise you're
not developing the proper representative earning design experiences. Yeah, it's
a really good point.

Speaker 5 (37:49):
And you see that a lot within tennis. Like I've
not got the stats in front of me, but the
amount of kids who play tennis so I have coaching
in tennis is quite high. It's in millions every month
of kids who play matches. You're looking at a couple
of thousand and for me, and I've said this before
when I've I've talked online tennis coaching, we're almost teaching ballet.

(38:11):
We're teaching these perfect moves in sequence, and then we
send these kids to a tennis match, had to mixed
martial arts fight, and they go into this arena and
they haven't got the skills and they haven't they're not
used to it, and their opponents in their face and
they're trying to beat them. And because they've never had
that in training. It's like, I'll never doing that again.

(38:34):
I'm one and done. I'm playing one tennis tournament, never
playing again. I'm going to go back to the safety
of tennis coaching, where there's no consequences, where everything's sort
of like you said before, low stress. And I'm not
saying my lessons are these mixed martial arts fights, but
we create it and they are losing constantly. In tennis,

(38:57):
you lose about forty nine percent points if you win
a match. And when I see these players who are
in less representative programs, when they go to matches, when
they make one error, they blow up. They blow up
because they've been told how great they are, and they
they practice and such isolation that they never miss. But

(39:18):
when they miss in competition, in deal with it, and
that's where you get the tears and the racket abuse.
It's well, the coach has given you the skills to
cope in that mixed martial arts arena. You're a great
ballet dancer, like you've got great moves, but that's not
the sport. Like I've mentioned before, like tennis is a
one on one racket combat. Like I'm trying to beat you.

(39:41):
I'm not trying to play tennis with you. I'm playing
tennis against you. And the vast majority of tennis lessons,
it's all working together, and like you mentioned a few times,
it's just how to hit the perfect shot. For me,
it has a relatively simple put the ball in a
place where you opponent can't get it back, like you
were saying. But when you play tennis, grow up, find
a way to win. And that way might be un orthodox,

(40:04):
but that's the reality of the game. And that's why
our tennis competition numbers are so low, because people go
to lessons and they don't actually compete. And this has
resonated quite a lot of me because my daughters have
both played girls football now and my youngest daughter started
playing this year and she's been to let's say, twelve practices,

(40:26):
she's played twelve matches. She goes practice on a Wednesday,
plays a match on a Saturday. There's kids who will
have fifty sixty tennis lessons and never play a match,
and it's like, why you haven't tennis coaching? And I
had it recently with my county team, whereas one the
parents were not happy that the player wasn't selected, and
I said, well, if you look at match's plaie this year,

(40:48):
you've only played a handful of matches. Yeah, but we
haven't coaching. Our coach has said that we're not ready
to play matches yet. And I was like, well, why
you haven't coaching if you're not playing matches. It just
doesn't make sense to me, Like it's almost like a
boxer who trained really hard in gym and never fights.

Speaker 4 (41:05):
But that's the.

Speaker 5 (41:06):
Culture that we have, especially well in tennis in general.
It's tennis is coaching now. It's not the sport that
we grew up playing because coaches are so dominant in
that space.

Speaker 1 (41:19):
You're right, though, I've seen this as well with quite
a lot of adults who have tennis lessons. They never
saw you to you know what I say. You two
only relatively recently stopped, but I was playing you know,
competitive tennis, you know quite a lot, and I came
back to it in later life, and I really like

(41:40):
the competitive tennis. The recreational tennis, you know, the sort
of roll up stuff I'm not as much of a
fan of because sometimes you end up in these sort
of meaningless past eight games. And actually I like playing
a you know, a sort of good good level, getting again,
getting those good matches, you know where you're you know,
you're finding a way to win. There's nothing nothing better
for me than when you're playing against you guys who

(42:00):
are probably a bit better than you and you find
this strategic solution to beat them.

Speaker 2 (42:04):
It's like nothing better anyway.

Speaker 1 (42:10):
So but yeah, what I was going to say was
that I think I've seen adults doing this. It's like
a workout, isn't it. They're basically paying for personal tech,
personal tennis training, and all they do is rally and
they get a good sweat on and they could have
asked brilliant that was right.

Speaker 2 (42:24):
So it's basically fitness, isn't it.

Speaker 1 (42:26):
And I do think a lot of saying that I
love that at that that thing you said there though,
that you know they basically they're getting taught ballet, but
actually tennis is an mma bounce, isn't it It is?
And like you're right, you're you're finding the thing that works.
You know, whether it's likely, say, you know, whether it's
it's striking isn't working, we're going to grappling, or we're
going to submissions or you know, or something like that.

Speaker 2 (42:48):
You know, it's if you're finding the thing that's gonna get.

Speaker 1 (42:51):
And actually the best I think are the ones who
are the most adaptable, not just the ones we pound
and pound away and hope for the best.

Speaker 5 (43:01):
Yeah, And I said, that's what makes tennis unique because
it there's so many different ways to play the game,
and we have lots of games, and also we have
different court surfaces and stuff like that. It's such an
adaptable game and even sort of like different conditions like
one minute you're playing at sunny and the rain comes,
like you've got to change how you play, You've got
to adapt. And the scoring systems completely unique. And I

(43:23):
say to a lot of my players, like you will
serve definitely forty love up, then love forty down. You
will move differently because the environment has changed, the score
has changed. And I get the point about competition, And
a lot of people say to me, yeah, but competition's scary.

Speaker 4 (43:40):
Are scary to play competitions?

Speaker 5 (43:42):
But I've got it from your podcast or a different podcast,
but a great analogy. Well, you're not born with a
fee of spiders. Like I've got a nine year old.
If he sees a spider, you'll pick it up. But
until someone says, no, that's really scary, do not pick
that spider up. He's intrigued by it, he's he's sort
of he's interested in it. And I think we do

(44:03):
the same in tennis. We say our competition's scurry. You
need at least twenty lessons before you can play a match,
and then we build it up and then we have
that massive disconnect, and then it does become a scaring
it does become that mixed.

Speaker 4 (44:14):
Martial arts fight that the players aren't ready for.

Speaker 5 (44:18):
Was my opinion that the first lesson you have with me,
the first thing we're doing is playing a match, because
I need to know how you play it in a
tennis match, and that might be in the service boxes,
it might be.

Speaker 4 (44:28):
With a slower ball, but it's going to be at
your level.

Speaker 5 (44:31):
But I need to see how you play whereas most
coaches first lesson I will do fourhand today without even
seeing it in context. And it's and then and then
we wonder why we have that massive disconnect from the
coaching to the game. And I don't know what other
sports you have a better insight than me, but it's
in tennis. And I think that's why certain racket sports

(44:52):
like pick a ball and paddle we're losing go our
tennis players to that Why because you can just pick
it up and play it. No coaching yet, having that's
coming in, but just go and play. But all pickaball
and paddle is are just different forms of tennis.

Speaker 4 (45:10):
It's crazy.

Speaker 1 (45:12):
There was a I've often thought this if there was
a recreational form of tennis that was accessible to everybody else.

Speaker 2 (45:18):
But basically you just you just put the serve out
of it, and.

Speaker 1 (45:21):
You've basically played under armed under armed tennis or a
game that's often played, isn't It is basically like a
rallying game, you know, three three, three times over the net,
and then we start playing the point, you know, which
is a classic sort of warm up activity with an
under armed serve. But the serve, I think is it's
probably the barriers for a lot of people because obviously
it's a difficult action, isn't it. And it's so it's

(45:42):
so kind of a cute i e. It doesn't go
in point, doesn't happen, whereas if you're under arming it,
you know, in the rough vicinity of the area, and
then off we go, then we you know, we play.

Speaker 2 (45:54):
And it's interesting that.

Speaker 1 (45:56):
I I've often thought that to make ten it's more appealing,
you might want to offer, you know, a genuine recreational
match format that doesn't involve the os. But I know
that's going to be semi sacrilegious to suggest these sorts
of things.

Speaker 2 (46:11):
Removed really important elements.

Speaker 1 (46:13):
Or the other one is, you know, just one serve,
so everyone has to slow their serve down basically they
start with a second serve, so again it makes it
more appealing. Or bigger service boxes. You know, it wouldn't
be difficult, would it for every every tennis court to
come with the bigger service box, like put on the lines.
Like lots of sports do this, by the way, you know,

(46:33):
like so for example, field hockey they change the rules
where you had to whenever you had a free kick
around or a free hit around the outside of the
circle you had to be five yards, so they put
five yard hashmarks. So every pitch then had to have
these five yard hashmark put onto the court, onto the
pitch surface, which obviously takes a little bit of time
for its way through, but anyone can do that. And actually,

(46:56):
in my mind, I mean, I imagine your court surface
is full of lines and stuff already on. Isn't it
where you can create different spaces and shapes and court
sizes and all those sorts of things, Because that's the
sort of natural thing for a constraint to their practitioner too,
isn't it.

Speaker 4 (47:11):
Well, it's true.

Speaker 5 (47:12):
And what I say to my player is, whether it
be adults or kids, is it's not wimbleding baseline like,
let's bring you father in.

Speaker 4 (47:20):
Let's make that and I did.

Speaker 5 (47:22):
I did some doubles sessions yes day with club players
and they were struggling to get the serve in. Okay,
tram lines are in on the serf, So I put
a little yellow mark on the service lines so you've
got a bigger space. You just open that field of perception,
and guess what, all the serves winning because they felt
a bit of more of the safety net with a
bigger space. And that's the beauty of the way of

(47:42):
the constraint lead approach, Like you just manipulate something to
change the behavior of the player, and people could push
back say yeah, but in the real game that doesn't happen.
You've got to get it in the box. And my
pushback there as well, I'm just developing the skill first,
because when they go into a real game, they know
that service box are smaller.

Speaker 4 (48:01):
Therefore, hopefully they'll now adapt and change.

Speaker 5 (48:04):
And like within all my lessons, I'm constantly changing the
barriers or the boundaries of the court, like we're playing
on big court, smaller courts. And one thing that I
would say is all my players are quite adaptable. They
can play in various different court sizes. Again because it's
not it's not hot on training, it's it's our space

(48:25):
to explore and develop different skills and having Sometimes tennis
is too regimented of well you're an adults, you can't
play with the slow ball.

Speaker 4 (48:35):
They're just for kids.

Speaker 5 (48:37):
And if you look at pickleball, pickleball is virtually what
we call red tennis. It's a smaller court, slow smaller rackets.
It's the exact same game without the overarm serve, like
you said. And adults love it why because it's smaller,
it's social. You've got lots of rallies and dinking and
donkin with it. Ll they don't really play pickleballs, don't know,
so don't kill me pickleballers. But it's just it's just

(49:01):
a smaller version of tennis. And it's interesting because all
the national government bodies around the world now are panicking
and they're cover these great ideas of their alternatives to pickleball.
And like you've already got it. It's called tennis smaller.

Speaker 4 (49:15):
Court, which you've already got.

Speaker 5 (49:16):
You've had that for twenty years, like short tennis was
around before that, even I started playing tennis. And it's
it's mad because again with a traditional view, it's that's
the court. You have to learn how to play in
that court, whereas me and you will see it. No,
that's just a space, and we can manipulate that space
to suit the needs.

Speaker 4 (49:33):
To play in that moment.

Speaker 1 (49:36):
Yeah, yeah, it's it's interesting because I've seen obviously some
of your posts, and one of the big reason I
knew that was because whenever I see a photo that
you posted, it's never the court. It's always cots within
courts within courts.

Speaker 4 (49:52):
Yeah, it's just it's just changing.

Speaker 5 (49:54):
It's just changing those boundaries and something like I took
from Rob Gray, like it's probably the easiest constraint to
use because it's a visual rather than sort of rule
basic and straight. And again, the players sort of buy
into it as well, because sometimes I players struggling, Okay,
we'll make it a little bit easier for the player,
or if the player needs to develop a bigger swing,
I'll just make the court bigger and just give them
more space to open that racket up.

Speaker 4 (50:16):
And the players really buy into it.

Speaker 5 (50:18):
And I think a big part of it that I,
like I mentioned before, is making sure the parents understand
what I'm doing, because sometimes they'll look those court shapes
and go, what on earth is going on? But I'll
explain some of Listen, working on Stuart's swing, it too short.
We are trying to make the swing bigger, So I'm
going to make the space bigger so he's.

Speaker 4 (50:35):
Got more rooms to explore that.

Speaker 5 (50:37):
That and then the parents go, okay, that's great then,
but yeah, it is normally courts within courts within courts.

Speaker 1 (50:45):
He may He made me think about my double's partner.
He struggled for ages with his second serve in particular,
but his survey just dump.

Speaker 2 (50:56):
It in the net all the time. Quite decent. It's
quite decent server.

Speaker 1 (51:00):
And he had some lessons and they were always talking
about ball toss and then he became one of these
people you know, who were four or five ball tosses before.
We actually it's a serve because it wasn't in exactly
the right place. But we did some work on it
because obviously, you know, it was causing us some headaches.
So we got to, you know, got together. I said, look,
let's you're just a bit of exploration. And what's interesting is,
isn't it? And I'm just thinking about this. So individual sports,

(51:24):
generally speaking, the focus of attention that the coach brings
to the player is usually really quite close. So it
tends to be something that the person is doing in
their movements that we work towards, that we work to
try and improve ball toss or whatever. It might be
the way we're throwing our get over whenever it is.

Speaker 2 (51:44):
And I don't work like that at all.

Speaker 1 (51:46):
I always, you know, being ecologically minded, I always think
about Okay, what is it that we're going to do,
and what what are the cues in the environment that
we should look to two help an individual see the
problem through a different lens.

Speaker 2 (52:05):
So, so, what's the problem.

Speaker 1 (52:06):
The problem is we're hitting way too many balls into
the net. Okay, So I created a task which was
I said, right, I'm going to create a space that's
about two yards at the end of the service box,
and I must say that you have to hit the
ball into that area, not into the service box, into
the area two yards beyond.

Speaker 2 (52:27):
The service line.

Speaker 1 (52:29):
You hit the ball into the service box, you have
failed in the task, and boom, right, He then hit
a ten serves into the service box, like beautiful serve,
right into the corners, and he was absolutely cockerhop and
I went, yes, but you failed in the task because
the tact was beyond the service box. And then we

(52:53):
then he started to do that, and then what we
started to do is so then he got it beyond
the service box, even though he was happy that it
was coming in, and said, no, you've got to go
beyond the service box. They had a little bit of
differential learning because we basically I just kind of create
a calibration. You now know how to hit it beyond
the service box, so now you can hit it into
the service box and know the difference. And it was

(53:14):
in one session, and it was and obviously I'm not
just saying to himself up, but it was transformative for
him because he could see the problem differently.

Speaker 2 (53:24):
It wasn't something he was doing here.

Speaker 1 (53:27):
He wasn't actually paying attention to where the ball needed
to go.

Speaker 2 (53:31):
So do a voltas I's still dump it into the net.

Speaker 1 (53:33):
He was now he had a target point and essentially
a in the scientific language they talk about a dismal
focus of attention, but a focus of attention where am
I trying to get the ball too? And actually then
he had a framework to actually work out. And what
he actually found was it actually helped him to think
about hitting the ball slightly long because more often than in.

(53:56):
And then we also worked out that he but if
he was to error, erroring long was always a million
miles better than error in shorts. And so actually, yes, okay,
you missed the odd serve. Of course you would, right,
but it would be you know, it would only be
by a tiny amount, and it would only be just
beyond and it just completely transformed his tennis experience, you know,

(54:18):
to the point where he was getting so frustrated he
was thinking, I'm letting you down. I think I should
give up, or whatever it is. And then all of
a sudden, now he's becomes this you know, really quite
you know, quite powerful server, but with a lot more joy,
purely because we just looked at the problem through a
different lens, and like, I mean, that's a really natural
way of doing it for me.

Speaker 2 (54:36):
But it's really interesting, isn't it.

Speaker 1 (54:37):
How all of his other stuff up to that point
had all been about something he was doing with his
body or his ball toss that really, in actual facts,
didn't have very much bearing at all on where the
ball went.

Speaker 4 (54:48):
I think you've misedter trick, Matt. I think you could
be a tennis coach. That's pretty good.

Speaker 5 (54:53):
And it's interesting because I did something similar yesterday with
those adults were they had to serve past the service line,
so they had to go between the service line and
baseline because what was happening was they were just slowing
the racket down because they were scared and missing. So
a bit like your friends, like, oh, it's second serve,
so I'll just go.

Speaker 4 (55:11):
Slower, and I was like, well, if you go slower,
you're going to get tense. It's going to drop into net.

Speaker 5 (55:17):
Okay, second serve, you can go past the service line
and just free them up. And then what starts to
happen now is they start to play around their ball
toss so you can strike it more in front, and
they're starting to work out to not push the ball
but strike the ball and through an ecological lens like
you did the you just create the environment for them
to explore. Whereas the vast majority of tennis coaches, if

(55:37):
I went to a tennis lesson, said I need to
work on my serve, it's well the ball toss has
to be here, And I'm like, well, no, two ball tosses,
rather be the same. Like and I said to the
group yesterday it was a two hour session, and I said,
your ball toss would be different at the start the
session to the end.

Speaker 4 (55:53):
Because you're going to get tired.

Speaker 5 (55:55):
Your ball toss would be different, like I'm meant to
before the score. So a bit like you, okay, well,
don't focus on how you're doing it, focus on what
you're trying to achieve and look at the impact on
the returner, like, don't just focus on what you're doing.
And it goes back to the classic book of in
a game of tennis, like that internal focus just makes

(56:15):
effances up. So get that external focus. And I think
sometimes as tennis coaches, I've been guilty in the past.
We just give players lots of fluff and useless information
because we believe that's what tennis coaches is supposed to do.
We're supposed to tell you where the ball toss should be,
and we're supposed to tell you where the elbow position
should be on the serve. And all that does is

(56:37):
just cause conflict within the player because, like you said,
the amount of times I see players throw the ball
up and catching I'm like, why are you catching it? Oh,
it's not in the right place. And I'm like, well,
you don't know if it's in the right place until
you hit it. Like you need feedback, you need information
to realize, like you did with your friend, to recalibrate,
so my general can straighten my players.

Speaker 4 (57:00):
Dot.

Speaker 5 (57:00):
If you throw that ball up, you have to hit it.
You have to hit it, and then you can work
out whether or not it was quote unquote in the
right place. But I think that's what it goes back
to we're saying before. But my stress as a traditional coach,
I'm so much more relaxed now as an ecological coach.
I don't feel the stress of constantly finding answers. It's

(57:22):
just more freeing from me because I'll say to my face,
I haven't got the answer, but together, we're going to
work it out, Like, let's work it out together, because
I can't just give you a stock answer. And I
say this on cod dcaching as well when I educate coaches.
We need to stop reaching for in the case of
emergency handbook. So if Stuart's foehands breaking down, we'll grab

(57:45):
the handbook out and we'll go through our little flow diagram. Okay,
that's the problem. Forget that. Let's just look at what
the issue is and work it out together. And for me,
that's just more empowered and freeing for me, like I'm
less dressed about it because it's exciting as well, your
explorers and not very doble. I am anyway in my

(58:06):
nature and like being creative, like you mentioned before, creating
the courts within courts, and sometimes I get it wrong.
Sometimes I will set something up and it's a disaster,
and the old it would have been really annoyed and
I would have drove home thinking I'm a rubbish coach.
Was now I'm like, I'm glad I had that experience
because I knew I took it a little bit too

(58:26):
far and the week halfter that I'll come in and
I'll change it a little bit. And it's interesting because
there's been a few times when I've said to my players, oh,
I'm sorry, I've got that wrong, and I'm like, what,
I'm sorry, Like I've completely got the wrong end there, like,
let's try something different, And that sort of allows them
to make mistakes as well, because if I'm being vulnerable

(58:48):
and saying I got it wrong and I'm the expert,
it allows them to get things wrong as well. And
I think that that just gives me a different lens
within my coaching.

Speaker 1 (59:00):
What I really like about what you just said? There
is and again this is again I think a feature.
Again I might be biased, but when I am definitely biased.
But I think a feature of the ecological approach is
that you you're you're treating each individual as an individual,

(59:23):
and you're not desiring a cookie cutter approach to say right,
everyone's going to do this.

Speaker 2 (59:26):
Everyone's going to do this. These are the these are
the things that everybody must have.

Speaker 1 (59:30):
What you're saying is is that you know, you're somebody
who's got a particular approach to learning. You're somebody who's
got a particular approach. You know, you've got certain physical attributes,
You've got certain capabilities. You see, I need to learn
more about how you see the world. I need to
learn more about the way you solve problems in order

(59:51):
for me to find the best the best way to support.

Speaker 2 (59:55):
You on your learning journey.

Speaker 1 (59:57):
And I I generally want to stay in the space
where the learner is central. Well, you know, the person
I'm working with is central to the learning process as
much as a human be can. It doesn't mean I
don't ever come out of that from time to time,
because you constrain by time or pressure or whatever it is,
and might might share something, share an idea or a
way of thinking, or a resource or a tool or

(01:00:20):
something along those lines. But in general, I'm always trying.
I mean, and some players do get a bit frustrated
with that because they kind of just want the quick,
give me the quick, give me a quick And I'm
reluctant to do that, perhaps a bit too reluctant. Sometimes
there are times when they're really suffering, actually, and I
probably ought to, you know, be a bit more empathetic
and alleviate the suffering.

Speaker 2 (01:00:40):
You know. I quite like the struggle.

Speaker 1 (01:00:42):
The struggle is where the growth happens, isn't it, you know,
And so I don't mind that. But there's some times, kid,
they're actually not struggling. There's suffering now, right, Okay, let's
let's throw you a life rapped a little bit, and
let's help you come back and.

Speaker 2 (01:00:53):
All that sort of stuff.

Speaker 1 (01:00:54):
And I'm probably a little bit guilty sometimes of not
doing that because and the reason is I've done it
in the past.

Speaker 2 (01:01:00):
So many times I've robbed I've.

Speaker 1 (01:01:02):
Robbed people of like brilliant moments of learning because I
was too quick to step in with my knowledge and
impose it on them. So, if I'm anything, I'm over
court perhaps in wanting to step in with an idea
or a framework. But interestingly, this is where I think
working in different sports is really useful. I genuinely believe

(01:01:23):
that if you're well versed in principles of the ecological approach,
you can pretty much turn your hand to anything, like
you don't need technical knowledge, Well you don't. In fact,
it's better not to have technical knowledge because you're forced
to look elsewhere.

Speaker 2 (01:01:39):
You know.

Speaker 1 (01:01:40):
So, and I genuinely and I've done this before, you know,
I can I do workshops in different sports. You know
that I've got literally no experience of and just create
like what I think to be fair or what feedack
I get is quite meaningful. I mean I never thought
about it. Quite meaningful learning experience for somebody. And you've
got no technical knowledge what whoever of this activity? No, no, no,

(01:02:01):
I'm just thinking about what are the kind of fundamental
elements of this activity and what is required as a learner.

Speaker 2 (01:02:10):
To be able to explore through it.

Speaker 1 (01:02:11):
Okay, let's design a space and then what we'll do
it will adapt within it together and see where we
get to. And I'm sometimes fascinated by the stuff that
comes up. You know, it's like wow, blind me, that's great.
It came from nowhere, you know, and to like you say,
I'm an explorer.

Speaker 2 (01:02:28):
I like that.

Speaker 1 (01:02:29):
But I can also understand why some other people find
that extremely destabilizing and scary, to be that open minded
to possibility. They need to go in with a clear
idea of what they're going to do, because if they don't.
But but I also wonder how many people are out
there who have never been given the opportunity to be
explorative as a coach, and I think, like, it's so impoverished,

(01:02:52):
and it must I don't know, I just I feel
That's why I feel so passionate about wanting to share
the idea, because at least then it gives people an
opportun unity to say, oh, maybe there's something in this
that I could give, I could try, because so many
people are just like you say, that's going through life
rinse and repeat, rinse and repeat, rinse and repeat. I mean,
it's like being on an assembly line, but you it

(01:03:16):
doesn't make any sense to me.

Speaker 5 (01:03:19):
There's there's so much in there that resonates for me.
And I think going back to those first eighteen years,
which I called the tough years, I would plan I'd
the lesson minute by a minute. Every lesson would be planned,
what I'm going to do for warm up, what I'm
gonna do for my practice, And what really frustrated me
was what you might not react positively to their first game.

(01:03:42):
And then I'd blame you for being not focused and
you're lazy and you need to do this, and it's stressed. Again,
goes back to the whole stress. It used to stress
me out because I couldn't work out why Stuart couldn't
perform these very simple actions and how you couldn't follow
my lesson plan. When I started going down the ecological route,

(01:04:03):
I stopped planning lessons and I'd probably have an intention,
but for the first I would say the first eight months,
I would drive to the tennis center worried because I
had nothing planned. So for eighteen years I'd go with
my lesson plans and there'll be in my bag if
I needed them. And now I'm going with no idea,
and I'd be so nervous and so anxious, and what

(01:04:25):
if it goes wrong? How do I know what I'm
going to do next?

Speaker 4 (01:04:29):
Was tonight?

Speaker 5 (01:04:30):
When I go to work, I've got an intention with
the player what we're going to explore, and then the
player is going to take me on the journey. And
what I found really fascinating now, especially when players work
with me for a couple of months, they will start
changing the constraints and I may say, well, let's try
having this size court, and I'll go, no, can we

(01:04:51):
try it this way? Or can I have an extra
touch theore or can I win an extra couple of
bonus points for that? I'm like, I love that ida.
I didn't even think of that idea. And to me,
that's that's what coaching is. And I call it coaching
in the moment, Like I'll go to work tonight, they'll
be an intention what we're going to go after, but
I have no idea what that lesson's going to look like.

(01:05:12):
And sometimes it goes well and sometimes it doesn't go
so well. But that's the fun part. And that's what
I think has given me the energy for coaching again,
because every single session is different and I have no
idea where it's going to go. And I look at
the coaches in and around me, and they'll be delivering
the same lesson the whole week, whether it be an
eight year old or an eighteen year old. It's the

(01:05:34):
same lesson over and over and again, rinse and repeat,
rinse and repeat. And I was that coach many years ago,
and it's not fun and it's stressful, and you just
get annoyed all the time at the players and now
it's a case of, well, I'm not really in charge
of my lessons, which I know sounds quite crazy. If
my players are in charge, I'm just there to help

(01:05:54):
and guide them. And it just gives me a new
lease of coaching. And I'm so much more relaxed now,
and I love my job.

Speaker 4 (01:06:01):
Was four or five.

Speaker 5 (01:06:02):
Years ago, I couldn't think of anything worse than going
to work.

Speaker 2 (01:06:08):
Yeah, I mean again, you know that's that's so powerful.

Speaker 1 (01:06:11):
And I do wonder how many people are out there.
It resonates with me as well. I mean I was
that annoyed my coaching for a good period of time,
you know, and I'm coaching adults at you know, national
league level, and my coaching was full of conflict all
the time, you know, just sessions that were just you know, anger,

(01:06:35):
and you know, phone call after phone call after sessions
apologizing to people or talking through you know what we've
just experienced. And yeah, for so much frustration and so
much you know kind of and and now I'm just
I'm a totally different human, you know, totally different character.
You know, I'm not saying I don't have the odd

(01:06:57):
moments of frustration and this that and the other but
generally speaking, yeah, hopefully different. Just give me any simple example. Actually,
yesterday I was watching my boy play. He was playing
for the county in two games, and got put in
a sort of slightly unfamiliar position for him. Then the
center of his fields forward, and he just for some

(01:07:18):
reason decided every time he got the ball, he was
just going to go on a maybe dribble.

Speaker 2 (01:07:23):
Uh.

Speaker 1 (01:07:23):
And he's quite skillful, and he could beat a couple
of players and this, that and the other, but he's
not he's not necessarily going to beat tired.

Speaker 2 (01:07:29):
He's not messy, right.

Speaker 1 (01:07:30):
I probably thinks he is that, And at one time
in my life I probably would have like gone, you know,
probably made some sort of quite you know, like stop
doing that. And instead I just bode my time hoping
that he would see the lights and actually start to think, ooh,
maybe I need to do it in a slightly different way.

Speaker 2 (01:07:52):
And then he did.

Speaker 1 (01:07:52):
He got the ball, he released it, he's got good
he's got good vision, released it, and he sent a
fifty yard ball through to somebody. Then goes in and
had a chance, And all I said.

Speaker 2 (01:08:03):
Was great, release, brilliant. Do more of that.

Speaker 1 (01:08:07):
That's the only time I kind of got vocal in
the in the thing, But it was because I thought
to myself, right, yeah, the way you're going to add
value to the boys experience seventeen now is is to
just catchually being good and reinforce. And I wouldn't have
thought like that previously because I'd have been on correction mode.
I'd have had my deficit detectives, you know, and I'd

(01:08:28):
have been right correct, correct, correct, as opposed to having
strengths lenses on which of the Stephen Rollnick and going right,
let's talk about when you do the good things and
reinforce that. And then he goes on and does about
two to three more of those kinds of things right now,
starts to cook. So yeah, it's just it's a sort
of different mindset and it changes who you are as

(01:08:49):
a human. And like you say, it's like it's so
kind of empowering, And I love what you said. Actually,
where my mind went when you were talking about sort
of them being in charge is a good friend of
mine now is working in motorsport. He was talking about
being he's talking about rally driving, like being the code driver,
isn't it. You know, you're you're sort of you've got
the pace notes, so to speak, and you say, oh,

(01:09:11):
crest here, like you know, just all those sorts of
things you're you're not the one.

Speaker 2 (01:09:15):
You haven't got the steering wheel.

Speaker 1 (01:09:17):
They've got the steering wheel once their journey, and they
can crash, and they can go in the right space,
and they can go quick or slower, whatever it might be,
and you're there as a co driver giving them the
support they need to be able to do it as
well as they can.

Speaker 2 (01:09:31):
I really like that.

Speaker 1 (01:09:33):
Notion of coaching the alongside, guide by the side type
sort of idea, and.

Speaker 5 (01:09:40):
It really takes a lot of pressure off me as
a coach because I mentioned before on the podcast, but
like for many years people seeing me as having all
the answers, I'm more often or not, I didn't have
the answer. I had a stock answer, I had something
that might have worked. Whereas now, like I've mentioned before,
in a case of well, let's find out, let's find
a way of making this more successful. And I like

(01:10:01):
the story with your son because like that powerful sort
of positive reinforcements is huge because again I'll do the
same with my players. Like you may make four or
five errors and then you'll have a moment of brilliance.

Speaker 4 (01:10:15):
Stewart.

Speaker 5 (01:10:16):
I really like that intention and really like what you
did with that. And you'll see the difference in the
body language. The head cupter, shoulders come up, the smile
will come out. And then if I compare that to
four or five years ago, I would have been having
a go at you in that first eraror I wouldn't
have let the ford the fire errors cone before you
had that moment of clarity. I would have been quick
to jump in because that's what I perceived my job

(01:10:37):
as been, and a lot of that was brought in
through education, but also my peers around me, because that's
what all your other coaches were doing and that's what
my perception of coaching was. And I mentioned before, once
I started down this route of ecological dynamics, it was
like I was frustrated that no one has ever shown
me this before, and no one's ever presented to me,
and I thought it was new, And then when you

(01:10:59):
look back and Gibson was in the seventie it has
been round way before I was born. And for someone
who works in coach education, it has never been presented
to me as did you know there's an alternative method here.
It's not just the information process and there's there's an
alternative way, and a lot of my early posts, I
think a bit like just were quite argumentative and tennis

(01:11:20):
coaches are killing the industry and stuff like that, and
but that for me was born out of frustration of
I've been not lied to. Probably may be maybe a
bit too strong, but I wasn't given the opportunity or
wasn't allowed to see this different method, and it's completely
changed how I coach, And you're right, it's completely changed

(01:11:41):
me as a person, Like even when I'm outside of tennis,
I'm much more patient and relaxed, and I see the
world a little bit differently. And that was almost hidden
away from me, which I think brought out a lot
of frustration and still does in some of my posts.
And some of my posts people think I am a
little bit conflicting, but it's it's a case of well,

(01:12:03):
I've been through the journey of the traditional coach. I
know what the effect is on me first and foremost,
and the effect on the players, and it's not all
that positive. Was this alternative approach, I'm much happier and
I guaranteef you speak to many of my players are
much happier and relaxed as well.

Speaker 4 (01:12:20):
And it's it's just, yeah, it's.

Speaker 5 (01:12:21):
Having that we talk about empowerment of players, but empowers
coaches as well.

Speaker 1 (01:12:27):
I mean again, I think it's important points. And I've
spoken to so many people over the years of similar stories.
You know, you know, I was, you know, close to
the end, so you found something else. It's all us
through desperation. You find other things, don't you, And then
then you're on a different journey and all those.

Speaker 2 (01:12:42):
Sorts of things.

Speaker 1 (01:12:43):
And you're right at this point about newness is such an
interesting area because as similarly, you know, everyone thinks.

Speaker 2 (01:12:49):
Are called yeah, oh wow.

Speaker 1 (01:12:51):
This is so it's not new in the sense that,
like you say, the ideas and thinking have been around
a long time, quite quite new as a research space
in sport when you were, let's say, but it's nearly
because no one's ever been proad Well, here's the thing.
It is provided to coaches, but only at later levels.

(01:13:15):
So it's often seen as something that we're only going
to give it to you. We're going this stuff to
you when you built your foundation, and I think that's wrong.
I actually think that's a very patriarchal, if you like,
or sort of parent child way of thinking about human education.

(01:13:35):
I actually believe that we should, at a much earlier
stage in education for coaches, we should provide a choice
architecture around like you know, Okay, so let's say that
the jury's out right, so there's no actual size of
the consensus that one's better than the other. And I've
got my own view, but let's say there is right
not enough support, Okay, at the very least present the

(01:13:58):
various alternatives, present them all, because I do think actually
there is a I think that this approach suits certain
personality types or certain people who have a certain way
of wanting to experience the world. Like I do know that,
for example, there are some people obviously who lend themselves

(01:14:20):
to quite process orientated occupations, and so I actually think
that the very sort of procedural and technical approach to
coaching appeals to some people. And I wouldn't want to
take that away from somebody if that's what they feel
really comfortable with.

Speaker 2 (01:14:38):
But for other people out there, you.

Speaker 1 (01:14:40):
Know, who are you know kind of generally I was
always I grew up with you know, my mother was
loved the dramatic arts and stuff like that, and my
brother went on to be you know, an a trained
actor and an acting teacher and this that and the other.

Speaker 2 (01:14:53):
So there's sort of that space.

Speaker 1 (01:14:54):
The sort of creative artistic world was always kind of
part of my upbringing. Play exploration, had a lot of
freedom as a child. So of course I'm going to
be let I'm going to be led towards those sorts
of approaches to learning, and they feel more natural to me,
but I understand other people would want something that's more
prescribed and you know, and given much more narrow parameters.

(01:15:17):
Fair enough, not a problem. Probably there's no choice. You
can given one option, really, you know, or the dominant
paradigm in education and the wider world looks like that,
and we tend to just gravitate towards that and think
that's the normal lives approach. So this is still seen
as being, you know, the ecological approach is still at
the moment seen as being something that's a bit radical,

(01:15:38):
a bit out there, you know, and anybody who ascribes
to it is a little bit you know, what's the
word I'm looking for, you know, a little bit on
the edge and all that sort of stuff, and I
don't think it is at all. I think this is
a very normal way of learning. It's a very natural
way of learning. It's how most people probably learned before
we had coaches with technical models. This is how you know,

(01:16:01):
anybody became good at anything, and so I believe it's
been with us for thousands of years. We just we've
almost like technicalized our way out of it, and now
we're sort of almost coming back to this naturalized.

Speaker 2 (01:16:16):
Way of learning.

Speaker 1 (01:16:18):
So yeah, it's it's just just sorry, a little bit
of a ramble there, but it's interesting, how you know.
I do believe it's really important to be able to
find it, and it's ethically important, you know, because if
you don't provide, like you didn't, you shouldn't have gone
through eighteen years of suffering. You'd have been offered this
much earlier in your career. You'd have been a much
happier coach. What's earlier in your career?

Speaker 5 (01:16:38):
Yeah, yeah, And there's so much resonator with media because
obviously work in coach education, so I deliver coach ed
for the national government body and qualifications workshops and stuff,
So I see that coach's journey from level one to
level five and you're right. And Provin Betten was on
your podcast and he said the same, like he got
to US five and then he'd learned what skill acquisition was,

(01:16:58):
which is crazy to me. And I think within tennis
we've almost got back to front. I think when you're
at the top end of the game working with professional players,
those buy mechanical principles and the technique that could make
the one percent difference like an.

Speaker 4 (01:17:12):
F one driver.

Speaker 5 (01:17:13):
When you're working with a group of eight year olds,
that technical knowledge is useless because what you need to
be when you're working with the lower levels or the
grassroot levels, is a really good environment designer. So when
we're going through this coach education journey, when we're starting off,
for the coaches should be more about practice design, like
how can we design these creative fun and spaces where

(01:17:34):
players can be creative like we talked about. And then
if you want to go towards the top end of
the game, that's when you really need to know your
buying mechanical and your professional standards. And I think the
problem is that's that's not as fancy for a lot
of tennis coaches, Like a lot of tennis want the
technical information because they think they need it. And I

(01:17:55):
went to a coach's conference last year, was a high
performance conference, and I'm sitting there some really great speakers,
top level coaches, international coaches, but the coaches around me,
and this is no knock on them, but they're all
grassroot coaches. So I'm like, what what knowledge are you
going to take back to your club tonight? And you're

(01:18:15):
working with your over seventy fives from this session apart
from getting them all there and standing in a perfect
trophy position, which is irrelevant to them, And I think
that's the biggest sort of disconnect. And I told you
a little story of before you start of press recording.
I'm currently working on a Level three which is our
Coach Award, and the coaches are taught obviously a model

(01:18:39):
based coaching of a traditional model, and it's it's quite
a lot of information for these coaches to take in
and when they deliver their sessions, there's a lot of
conflict in them. They don't quite know what to go after,
they don't quite know what to work on, and it's
it's a lot of information. When I did the Constraint
Lead Approach module there there's only ninety minutes, but I

(01:19:01):
basically explained the three types of constraints we can manipulate
the task environment and a player. The task is the
easiest one as a coach to manipulate. We start off
of a problem a bit like your friend before maybe
slowing down the racket on second serves. I gave them
a few examples of how I would manipulate it, and
I sent them off, Okay, go off, come over a problem,

(01:19:23):
finger some constraints.

Speaker 4 (01:19:25):
When they came back.

Speaker 5 (01:19:26):
In and showed it was really good, they came up
with some really great creative ideas of how to improve
technique via constraints. And what was really interesting when they
went back to the traditional model, they weren't that creative.
They couldn't think of anything. So what they fell back
on was their prior knowledge and they almost were just

(01:19:49):
coaching what they knew, not what they were seeing. If
I'm making any sense here, and for me, that was
like a light board moment as a coach. Educators like
well always sometimes over constraining our coaches with models and
frameworks and technical models and tactical models. Should we not
just maybe like we talk about my players, Let's just
have an intention and then allow these coaches to come

(01:20:11):
up with ideas. And these are new coaches, they're not
very experienced coaches, but they can design task constraints given
the opportunities to three with the whole notion of you
need experience first, they need a little bit of guidance,
but I think a bit like a player like we
were talking about, they just need the space to actually

(01:20:32):
be creative and not told oh, that's wrong or you
can't do that because that's not how we coach. Well,
there's no right or wrong way to coach, Like you
said before, there's more efficient, effective ways, and I think
that's where and I loved your whole series on coach
education is broken, and I get coachescations tough and it's
hard to be a national government body. But I think
sometimes we're over educating these coaches. I don't think they

(01:20:55):
need to know half the stuff that we teach them
on these courses. We just need to teach them, Okay,
what as a good environment look like, how can and
what the players need and want now? And I think
more often than not, I've done lots of rants online
on this. We're teaching play it. We're almost future proof
and players. So we're looking at again us an example
of the kid before well at the age of twelve

(01:21:16):
is so needs to look like this. So if we
work on it like this now, it will transition to that.
But my argument is he might not be playing at twelve,
you might give up, you might quit. So why not
begin to use Mark Bennett? Why not just give him
sort of what he needs today, make the best of
what he has today in the moment. I think that's
where coach education gets it wrong a little bit. It's

(01:21:37):
almost we need to give these frameworks. I'm not so
sure we do. That's just my opinion.

Speaker 1 (01:21:45):
I do agree, and I again, I like to say
I've talked about this quite a lot, but I think
we and because we do that, we actually marginalize a
lot of people from entering hope. We make it, We
make it too, We just overkill it and people are

(01:22:08):
put off by it, and we over academiize it.

Speaker 2 (01:22:11):
It's it's not even a word, but I've just made
it up, you know.

Speaker 1 (01:22:14):
And actually what we should be thinking about in the
early stage is saying, well, if we were serious about it,
you know, let's think about what is it the participants
are looking for? You know, and I know it's a
balance between needs and wants, but in many ways, you know,
let's say you can't you can't develop a kid.

Speaker 2 (01:22:30):
It doesn't turn up.

Speaker 1 (01:22:32):
So let's make it an experience that they're going to
find really enjoyable, meaningful, you know, developmentally appropriate, and all
those sorts of things. And then once we've got them
into the idea of this is a game that they
love and they enjoy it and they can't wait for,
then we can start to start to support how they get,

(01:22:54):
how how they might want to improve once they're going
on that developmental journey and they're making some investments and
all those sorts of things. But we were working at
it the other way around, you know, the idea of
you know, oh, actually we've got to make the early
stages of sport like school. It's teaching and it's instruction,
and it's about repetition, and it's about like basically doing
your sporting timestables. Why would anyone do that. It's just

(01:23:19):
not I mean, so it genuinely makes no sense. And
everyone keeps talking about, oh, we need to take a
much more player centered, applete centered, child centered, customer centered approach.
You know, we have all this insight about what people
are looking for, but then you know, fundamentally we end
up in this horrible situation where it just doesn't work
out like we wanted to work it out.

Speaker 2 (01:23:38):
We wonder why.

Speaker 4 (01:23:41):
It's mad.

Speaker 5 (01:23:41):
And I say to coaches all the time, you have
to understand, these kids between nine and three o'clock have
been told what to do, when to do, how to
do it, so when they come to your session at four,
they don't want the same Like we have to be
creating environment, we have fun and explore. And I'm just
resonating with me as you were talking. I was at
a club give a week and I was watching the session,

(01:24:03):
and the coach, to be fair, is doing what the
right things to teaching athletic skill, throwing and catching, jumping
through hoops, jump through hurdles, and all that stuff. Three
times in the session the players go to get their rackets,
and three times the coach says, don't need them yet.
And I'm like, these kids want to play tennis, and
I get the physical, literary developments and stuff, but these

(01:24:25):
kids are coming once a week, so let's just play tennis.

Speaker 4 (01:24:28):
Let's just play a form of tennis.

Speaker 5 (01:24:29):
Whether that'll be with balloons or smaller courts, bigger courts,
but these kids want to play tennis, and more often
than not, we're teaching them skills that they don't even need.
Like I said before, they might not be playing in
five years. And my being with all ages and I
work on a player pathway, my number one goal is
to make these kids fall in love with the game.
Let them fall in love with tennis, and hopefully they'll

(01:24:52):
still be playing tennis in twenty years time. But if
it's a bit like you say now, if it's like school,
they're not going to stay around that long. And I've
had this issue before, like I've had successful players, but
of my players aren't playing the game no more. And
that's on me generally because I probably haven't given them

(01:25:12):
the love of the sport to keep them minute. Hopefully, now,
in twenty years time, ninety percent of my players will
stay playing tennis and only ten percent aren't. And I
just think the role of the coach has warped. You
mentioned there about education. I'm not an educator as a coach,
and like you said, there a great example, I'm just
a co pilot. I'm just there to facilitate. Hopefully, getting

(01:25:35):
kids involved in the sport, and I don't know what
it's like in other sports, so I think tennis has
gone down the rabbit hole of coaching is the main
part of tennis. Now we're losing the elements of the sport.

Speaker 4 (01:25:46):
That's my ranch. Stewart.

Speaker 1 (01:25:47):
Sorry, good way to wrap it up. Don't even get
me started on physical literacy. Good god, listen. Great having
you on, and I mean the stuff you're putting out
there brilliant, and you know, please keep doing it, even
if it is a bit competive. You know me, I

(01:26:09):
don't mind a bit a combative war on drills and
all that, as I think it's just the way of
creating a bit of reappraisal. So many people have got
in touch with me saying it was war and drills
that got me into this, just you know, just listening
to that one, you know. And it's partly because it's
called war on drills. I think it gets shared and
it's a bit of outrage and you know how the
algorithms work, and when you actually listen to it, it's
not quite that. But it's a bit click baita I suppose,

(01:26:32):
But that's partly because I want a bit like you.
I'm so passionate about it, and I believe that so
many people have well, I think kids are getting let down,
coaches are getting let down, and therefore, you know, we
need to keep sharing this stuff. So the fact that
you know, you're blazing the trail in tennis, and I
know that people out there who work who think like you.
You know, I think there's a growing community of tennis
coaches who are probably brought into this idea and slowly,

(01:26:54):
slowly they're growing it and you're doing some of that.

Speaker 2 (01:26:56):
So more power to you.

Speaker 1 (01:26:58):
What's the best way for people to get in touch
if they're interested or curious, or they've got questions or
they want to know more.

Speaker 5 (01:27:05):
Yeah, they can check out more Productive on Instagram. So
my Tennis Coaching on Instagram, on my website is my
tennis Coaching dot com, and they're more more than happy
to have conversations and stuff and the coaches. But I
just want to say a huge thank you to you
because your podcast has been a huge part of my
learning and development. And it's been many times when I've

(01:27:25):
been disheartened and not too sure if I'm doing the
right thing, and I put the podcast on and listen
to you and other coaches and you're all going through
a similar things to me, so it just helps keep
me in check as well, and like, okay, I am
on the right path for me my journey, but the
podcast has been a massive influence on me. So I
just want to say huge thanks and really appreciate the

(01:27:48):
invitation having me on and hopefully it was a good chat.

Speaker 1 (01:27:52):
It was really good chat, and I'm really we could
do it. And as you know, we have the Guild
of Ecological Explorers, which is the learning that convene, and
tonight's being like one's been hijacked by Raphael said, who's
basically do the Grappling Masterclass or something like that, Grappling
the Guild Grappling, I.

Speaker 2 (01:28:12):
Think we're calling it.

Speaker 1 (01:28:13):
So we're going to be focusing in on the whole
world of BGJ and wrestling and all that sort of stuff,
having a bit of a discussion and debate.

Speaker 2 (01:28:20):
There should be fun looking forward to that. And yeah,
and that's why I set that up.

Speaker 1 (01:28:26):
To be honest, you know, because I knew there were
lots of people out there who felt like they were
a bit alone on their own and wanted to try
and create a group, and actually what's quite nice actually
having the dynamics of different sports and learning about the
challenges in different sports contexts, but also then learning from
other sports about what can be taken away.

Speaker 2 (01:28:43):
So it's yeah, quite dynamic. Hey, listen, I really appreciate
what you on.

Speaker 5 (01:28:47):
Sorry, sorry on that note, I am part of the guild,
and I would, honestly, and I'm not just say next
time on the podcast, I would encourage coaches because it
is just a nice resource to have and to to
watch the WhatsApp groups and see the engagement and just
sharing ideas and challenging. I get lots from it. I
know I've not been to a live recording next I'm
always coaching. I need to make sure I get these

(01:29:09):
some time off. But but it's great, and like I've
just sort of similar in the tennis community, because that's
one of the downside, especially in tennis coaching. It's so
lonely but isolating, and I think I've found a lot
of solace in your guild. So again, thank you so
much for that.

Speaker 1 (01:29:24):
No, no, no, no, Well people are saying that that's yeah
exactly like I said, that's that's what it's what it's
there for. And it's not organized or structured. I think
some people have been put off. They think we're going
to all these high intensity gogical people. Know, it's very
softly assembled, very emergent, very much led by the group.

Speaker 2 (01:29:45):
And we just sort of go where the energy is
and all that sort of stuff. Listen, great to have
you on.

Speaker 1 (01:29:49):
I've got to run, but look forward to seeing your
continued content output. And at one stage when I go
back to the the Homeland, maybe we could get the
balls out and you can take me through my paces.

Speaker 2 (01:30:06):
Maybe even we'll put the video camera on it. That
might be fun.

Speaker 4 (01:30:09):
Absolutely, Thanks you Wippy.

Speaker 3 (01:30:16):
Thanks for listening to the Talent Equation podcast. If you
like the show, then please consider supporting it by leaving
a review on your favorite podcast player, telling your friends
about it, or even becoming a hero and show your
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"We coach like we train ballet dancers - but tennis is an MMA fight" - a conversation with Steve Whelan

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.css-14f5ked{margin:0;word-break:break-word;display:-webkit-box;-webkit-box-orient:vertical;box-orient:vertical;-webkit-line-clamp:2;overflow:hidden;}"We coach like we train ballet dancers - but tennis is an MMA fight" - a conversation with Steve Whelan