From Special Forces to the 160th SOAR | Nick O'Kelly | Ep. 362 - The Team House

Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:02):
Special Operations Cobert oh Spionage The Team House with your
hosts Jack Murphy and David Park.

Speaker 2 (00:22):
Hey, guys, welcome to episode three hundred and sixty two
of the podcast. Ah sorry, I just had to mute something.
Episode three hundred and sixty two of The Team House.
I'm Jack here with Dave and our guest on tonight's
show is nic O'Kelly. Nick served in Special Forces and
first Group in Okinawa, deployed to the Philippines, went to

(00:43):
flight school, served in third Combat Aviation Brigade, deployed Afghanistan,
went and assessed for one sixtieth Special Operations Aviation. You
were a Blackhawk guy, didn't direct apployment, and then got
medically retired and now run a financial planning firm. And
you have a book called Stigma coming out October twenty first.

Speaker 3 (01:05):
So that's the thumbnail sketch. Nailed it, Yeah, nailed it.
Thanks for coming in. Yeah, yeah, I know, Thanks for having.

Speaker 4 (01:13):
Me, Thanks for coming up to It's always it's always
fun to have people in the studio.

Speaker 3 (01:16):
I agree, it's a lot better environment, it's a lot
more fun, Yeah for sure.

Speaker 2 (01:21):
So yeah, Nick, I mean the question we typically ask
our guests. First, is their origin story, if you want
to tell us a little bit about kind of like
your upbringing and how that took you towards the military.

Speaker 3 (01:31):
Yeah, So grew up in western Washington, Seattle area. Ish
pretty traditional family, right, like nothing crazy. I didn't have
like a traumatic childhood or anything. Family is six so,
four siblings living in the suburbs of Seattle. And then
I did the traditional like went to college because that

(01:52):
was the right thing to do route, but found myself
drinking my way out of college very quickly after about
a year. You have a good time. Yeah, So I
like got the freedom out of high school and just
went hard in college, and like it was one of
those things where like I wouldn't go to class for
a week and then I'm like, eh, I don't think
it's worth going now. I think I missed too much.

(02:12):
So long story short, I dropped out of college after
a year and a half, went back home, worked for
my dad for a year. He owned like a car magazine,
and really was just partying and doing nothing with my life.
So fortunately in college I did RTC, so I had
like some exposure to the army and kind of what
it was, so That's what led me to be like, okay,

(02:35):
I should probably do something. Let's look at the military.
I initially went to the Marines and they told me, basically,
we can't guarantee your job, can't guarantee your rems. So
if you enlist, that's fine, but we don't you don't
know what you're gonna do. So I was like, no,
I don't want to do that. So went over to
the Army recruiter and he showed me the SF recruiting

(02:56):
video and I was like, hell, yeah, that's those bad
thing I've ever seen. Yeah, so let's go what do
I need to do? And yeah, signed the dott A
Line eighteen X ray and then shipped off for Basic
in July twenty ten.

Speaker 4 (03:10):
So did you know anything about Special Forces or special
operations at all prior to that?

Speaker 3 (03:14):
Not really, I mean other than like the movies, Yeah,
you know, nothing, Like I wasn't the kid that was
like I want to go do this, you know. I
didn't have that like I want to go be a
groom Bret or go be a Navy seal. Now. I
just was like that sounds really cool, sounds really hard,
so let's try it.

Speaker 4 (03:28):
I think I think that for like athletic guys, it's
like they they you know, therefore shows the PJ or CCT,
the Navy shows the seals, the Army shows the ranger.

Speaker 3 (03:38):
Of stuff, and they know that a lot of those
guys are going to wash out.

Speaker 4 (03:41):
Yeah, like they're going to go you know, be the
you know the deck cans, you know. Yeah, most is
made sort of the you know the gun seconds, yeah,
you know.

Speaker 3 (03:52):
But yeah, that's that's great.

Speaker 4 (03:53):
So what did you did you do any training prior
to going to s FAS or prior to going to
basic and everything.

Speaker 3 (04:00):
Yeah, so I was because of RTC. I knew kind
of the standards, right, like the PT tests and stuff,
So I knew what I needed to work on. So
I was already a pretty good runner. That obviously goes
so far when you're enlist. So I had the running
background and that was the biggest thing that I think
like made me succeed and do well throughout the whole

(04:22):
entire pipeline was just the running background. But yeah, so training,
but not like I didn't follow like a specific program.
It was more just like all right, let's go sweat
my ass off every day and yeah, yeah, getting get
in good shape.

Speaker 4 (04:35):
Yeah, it's it's always interesting me too, because like there's
such a culture and we've had like do on you know,
like there's such a culture around you know, kids like
psyching themselves up for uh, for whatever selection is they're
going to, and then other guys who are just like Okay,
I'll I'm mena, let's try this, and they just do it. Yeah,

(04:57):
you know, And you know, I think obviously fitness in
shape and condition are a part of it, but there's
also just like the intent of I'm.

Speaker 3 (05:07):
Just going to do this. Yeah. And I also I
didn't mention, but during my childhood, like my mom was,
she was hard, like she was a drill sergeant at home.
Basically I was the kid if I got like a
B plus, it was like what happened? Would you do wrong?
Not like good John?

Speaker 5 (05:22):
You know.

Speaker 3 (05:23):
So I always had those high standards that were just
ingrained with me, and I think that like helped a
lot throughout the whole thing.

Speaker 2 (05:30):
So twenty ten, you're coming into the military. Tell us
a little bit about like the eighteen X ray experience.

Speaker 3 (05:36):
Oh yeah, all right, so it had I will say
like it had more from like the early two thousand
days because I heard horror stories from back then where
they just miserable, right, And I think by now, by
the time I was going through, there were enough cadre
that were eighteen X rays that they had a little
more sympathy. Right. Yeah, it wasn't like it wasn't like

(05:58):
what are we doing with this eighteen xt reprader? Right?
They were like, Okay, now I'm an atwen X ray.
It's that kind of you know, mutual respect a little bit.
But I will say like X rays have such a
leg up compared to somebody just coming from the regular
Army as far as like selection, right, because you go
to Sopsey right before, so you have three weeks where

(06:18):
you're basically working out twice a day, sleeping like ten
hours a day, and just eating protein and getting ready
for selection. You know, they teach you land as you
already have kind of a pre selection course built in.
Big Army doesn't get that, right, they exactly. So we
have so we show up to selection kind of already
and you hear all the G two through the pipeline

(06:39):
right through the guys that are ahead of you, So
you already kind of have an idea of like what
you need to do to be successful. So I do
think the X ray program like is good in that regard. Now,
I will say like when you get later in the
course like SUT and stuff like that, that's when being
an X ray sucks because leadership experience and stuff like
that was not was not something that we had ever

(07:01):
done before. So I was just like, how am I
supposed to tell this E six ranger? You know what
to do when I'm an EAT three you know what
I mean? With no combat, no no experience or anything.
So so it's good and bad. I guess what was
that like? Working with you know, a bunch of salty
characters from the Big Army that come in there. There
was there was hidden miss Some of them were really cool,

(07:22):
like some of them were really down to earth. And
I also think it like depended on what type of
X ray you were, you know, because there were some
X rays that just kind of had it coming and
didn't you know they were cocky. Yeah, shouldn't have been,
you know. So I do think that played a factor.
I tried to stay humble throughout it, so I never
got too much. Yeah. Yeah, I was kind of trying
to be the great man, so I didn't get too

(07:42):
much ship from the hardened war vets, you know, yeah.

Speaker 4 (07:47):
Two tens, So there there were probably quite a few
combats for sure going through that.

Speaker 3 (07:51):
Yeah, for sure, yep. And what MS did you get assigned? Charlie? Okay?
So I was originally gonna be a Bravo and then
there was another guy going to OK and fortunately he
wanted Charlie or excuse me, he wanted Bravo and I
wanted Charlie. So we were able to do a hot
swap in the so he already knew he was going
to OK or no, good, good point. He we had

(08:13):
our languageurs already because language was first. Yeah, that's what
it was. So we both had Asian languages. That's what
it was. Good point. Good point, because we didn't find
out till yeah, until stage after sage. Actually, yeah, yeah,
that's that's cool. What what what is the.

Speaker 4 (08:29):
Like?

Speaker 3 (08:30):
What was the language?

Speaker 4 (08:31):
So they give you guys like the D lab or
whatever it is, and then how long is the language
course for because it's.

Speaker 3 (08:37):
A shorter course. It was six months when I went through,
So yeah, I did Korean. It was six months. Is
the goal like one one or yeah, Gold's one one?
Which yeah, I feel like after six months one one
is not hard to Yeah, there's plenty of time. I disagree.
Maybe it depends on the language. It might depend on
the person too. I was a hardhead.

Speaker 2 (09:00):
So Charlie, Uh, any fun stories you want to tell
about going through the Charlie Course or Robin Sage or
anything before we move on.

Speaker 3 (09:08):
So I got two stories that I'll tell, Okay. One
of them was me being a dumbass and almost getting
kicked out of the Q course. So so here I
am this. I think I was twenty two. Yeah, I
was twenty two at the time, so twenty two years old.
We're going through the Q course, crushing it, crushing it,
you know, as well as you can. And we were

(09:31):
going out on weeknights, right like, and just showing up
at five six am for no worries, right, everything's fine.
One night we go out and we were out till
like three am, and I think we had to catch
a five am bus for the Charlie Course, and my
alarm goes off or no, not even my alarm. I
get like my phone's just going crazy and a buddy's

(09:52):
calling me like, dude, where the hell are you? And
I literally just woke up and I'm like, shit, he's
like the buses here, like you probably have like two minutes, dude,
and so throw my stuff on real quick. Paul asked
down to the bus and I kid you not, like
the bus doors were closing when I was running up
to it. Knocked on the door and luckily the bus

(10:12):
drivers of civilian, so it's not like Cadria there. But
I barely made it. And you know, they read like
I would have probably been kicked out of the course
or at least recycled at a minimum. So like, yeah,
the just shoe string, you know, metric for meeting the
standard out there at the Q course. You know.

Speaker 2 (10:33):
The worst thing they I think they did for us
was when we started having night classes in language school.
Because you're in class from like one or two in
the afternoon to like six or seven o'clock at.

Speaker 3 (10:45):
Night, and then you can go out drinking all night.
You don't have to be into one in the afternoon. Yeah.

Speaker 2 (10:51):
Yeah, we were hitting it pretty hard. That's brutal. That's
like the pilot life that was. That was not a
good idea of them to do that. Yeah, yeah, that's
why I did.

Speaker 3 (10:59):
Not a lot of self selection.

Speaker 2 (11:00):
Yeah, why why I maybe didn't do so good on
the language proficiency test. Yeah, don't let a bunch of
young twenty year old's hard charge and sleep in every day.
That's not not a recipe for success. And what's the second?

Speaker 3 (11:13):
Oh yeah, second story? So this one was actually in
Robin Sage. So I met my wife at the Q course.
Really we could that's a funny story too. But I
met my wife at the Q course and I got
engaged before Sage and we were literally getting married the
day after I graduated the Q course. So in Sage,
our g chief and the locals or whatever set up

(11:35):
a scenario where we went and played poker with the locals,
and there was this young chick there that her job
was to seduce one of us, try to seduce one
of us, and of course I had to be the
freaking sacrificial lamb, and you know, she was going at
me hard, and I was just like what do I do?
Like I'm literally engaged in the real world, you know,

(11:56):
and like, but I it's you know, it's Sage. She
was supposed to play the part, and I'm just like,
how do I navigate this situation? And I ended up
kind of like lightly stiff arming, you know, enough to
be like respectful, but like be like, guys, help me
out here, Like I need some help, I need to curve.
I need somebody to step in and help out. And fortunately,

(12:17):
like I don't know if they just sensed that I
was like extremely uncomfortable with it or something, but it
did back off. But man, that could have been like
that was one of those moral dilemmas. Who was like
toling her garter, be like literally like leaning over my shoulder,
you know, and like putting her stuff on me. And
I'm just like, all right, I just got engaged. You

(12:37):
know this is not good. You went through a fun
Robin sage. Yeah, I mean that was one day, so
I mean, are you sure that was not on Liberty? Yeah?

Speaker 5 (12:46):
I know.

Speaker 4 (12:47):
Those story about your wife though. Can we save that
for a bonus segment for our patrion Vider? Yeah, okay, great,
try to describers.

Speaker 3 (13:00):
Hey, if you're not subscribing to our patron you should
wings down the description. It's gonna be salacious, that's right.
I And so, by the grace of God, graduate the
Q course get married the day after yep. And now
you guys are bags and baggage going towed Japan. Yeah,
and my wife was in RTC at East Carolina University,

(13:24):
so I was marrying up she was. I was yeah
obviously at E five when I graduated, but she was
commissioning like six months after I graduated. So it's one
of those things that we were like, we gotta get
married before you're in the army, you know, just to
avoid that conflict and everything. But the other curve ball
was like there was no position for her to go
to Okinawa. She was a signal officer, So it's like, shit,

(13:47):
are we going to be like separated by you know,
worlds right when we get married for a while. Fortunately,
and you know how the army works, if you know somebody,
it helps. So her dad was a forward colonel at
West Point and he was able to literally call HRC
and get orders like the next day, Like we tried
all the avenues first, right and nothing just crickets. And

(14:10):
then literally she's like, Dad, I don't know what else
to do. Can you make a phone call next day?
Shit orders? I was like a kidding me. But the
crazy thing is like they had a slot for her
out there, like she slipt stepped in and was a
platoon leader, and it was actual like an M too slot.
So it's like, why are you guys you know whatever, bureaucracy,
but but yeah, worked, it's the military, right And how'd

(14:34):
you like Gokinawa? I loved it for the short period
that I was there. I mean we were honestly like,
I was probably tdy more than I was on island.
But now it was really cool.

Speaker 4 (14:45):
Uh.

Speaker 3 (14:46):
We I showed up to my team at a or
my company at an interesting point though, because they were
they were in Afghanistan when I got there. So I
was basically showed up with like six other X rays
and we were reard. You remember day fielding. Yeah, yeah,
so me and Dave showed up at the same time. Okay,
so we were weird d and then the company lost

(15:07):
a guy while we were literally like right when we
got there, and so when they came back, man, we
were just these X rays, no experience, and I think
the majority of us were X rays, if not all
of us, so no experience or anything, you know, very green,
and we were not treated well, like, we were not
accepted right away. It was very much like the we

(15:28):
got our click, you guys stayed in your lane, shut
up you know, do what you're told, which is expected
to some extent, right, but I feel like it was
definitely like magnified by all that, just like the twenty
eleven twelve. Yeah, so it'd been twenty twelve, Okay, yep, yeah,
so so yeah, I got in a company. I mean
they yeah, they had a pretty brutal deployment. So so

(15:49):
we just had a lot of I would say imposter syndrome,
you know, because we didn't know anything. You know, we
thought we were cool and then we got there and
we got humbled real quick. Sure, but hey, guys, it's Jack.
I want to tell you guys about the sponsor for
today's show. It's Mando. Mando makes a whole series of
male grooming products. They are unique and not There are

(16:10):
a deodorant that you can use all over your body
on armpits if you like, but also wherever else you
may deem necessary. And I have been using these products
for about three months now. I've been using the body
wash it's Bourbon Leather. I've been using their bar of soap,
which I really enjoyed, and also their deodorant. And so

(16:33):
I exercise a lot and get very sweaty, so I
need a deodorant that's going to do the job, and
Mando has come through for me. You know. The body
wash was great. I actually used all of that, need
to reorder some more. The bar of soap is also
very cool.

Speaker 2 (16:47):
It was very very smooth actually, so I hope you
guys will go and check them out. They have a
starter kit that's up there, and they have a special
deal for Team House viewers.

Speaker 3 (16:58):
So there's arter pack is perfect for new customers.

Speaker 2 (17:01):
It comes with a solid stick deodorant, cream tube deodorant,
two free products of your choice like mini body wash
and deodorant wipes, and free shipping. As a special offer
for listeners, new customers get five dollars off of starter
pack with our exclusive code that equates to over forty
percent off your starter pack. Use code Teamhouse at Shopmando

(17:22):
dot com. That's s H O P M A N
d O dot com. Please support our show and tell
them we sent you Smell fresher, stay dryer and boost
your confidence from head to toe with Mando.

Speaker 3 (17:37):
But after I would say two trips with the team,
that's when it finally started to integrate. And where were
those trips to the first one was to Nepal and
second one was Philippines, so they were those were just
chase its though, So those weren't cool. Yeah, what's said
for people who joint combined exercise training? So basically okay,

(17:58):
so it's basically where you're training with a another country's
military training you your training that is supposed to be.
It's not necessarily a combat the point, right exactly.

Speaker 4 (18:07):
Yeah, it's more there's like a POI more like foreign
Internal defense exact stuff.

Speaker 3 (18:14):
Was your team were they Merman or sky Kings or
you know what? What what kind of team was? We
were a mountain team. You were mountain to that transition
that transition to a mobility team, which I don't know
what that means, that just means, but you know what.
You know what was cool though, was at Nepal we
got to do every space camp because we had a

(18:34):
two week I think period white Space on the front
end of the trip and we were like, yeah, let's good,
do it like and got per DM and everything. You know.
It was high outsitude training and what the base camp for? Ah,
can you explain that? Yeah? So so every space camp
you you fly out of excuse me, katman do which

(18:58):
is like the big city in the poul and then
you fly to a town called Lukla, which is if
you look it up on YouTube, it's actually like the
most dangerous airport in the world. It's insane landing there.
It's like a super short runway and it's slanted up
so that the aircraft have time to decelerate like before
they hit the wall, so it's it's pretty nuts if

(19:19):
you watch the videos. So flew into there, and I
think that's at around nine thousand feet. So you start
at Lucla and then it's ten days up to every
space camp you end up. I think base camp is
around eighteen thousand. So you make stops along the way
and you have we had two shurpas with us, so

(19:39):
it was two odios that did it. So it was
about twenty guys and two shurpas and it was a blast,
like it was. It was one of those things that
once in a lifetime opportunity to for sure, you know.
And I think the most amazing thing is the the
Nepalese people that live there, like just incredible. Man, you'll
be it. You'll be like six teen thousand feet at

(20:00):
like the second stop before base camp, and there's pool
tables and like full bars and like somebody carried that
stuff up like on their back. You know, it's just nuts.
I remember I went to the Annapurna base camp. We
did that too.

Speaker 2 (20:14):
Yeah, so you know that, you know that exact walk
through that valley, did it in the summer. And one
thing I'll never forget is the porters, Like you said,
they someone has to carry that stuff up there, and
the porters carrying the things on their back with you know,
it goes from their head.

Speaker 3 (20:27):
Yeah, the band and then they're carrying on their back
the way they did a thousand years ago, I'm sure. Yeah,
but now they're on the trail playing Candy Crush on
their smartphone. I'll never forget that. No, that's a good point.
I literally skype my wife from like the stop before
every space camp. I was like, how's their internet up here?
You know, like somebody put in the infrastructure. It's pretty wild. Yeah,
it is today's world, absolutely. Yeah.

Speaker 2 (20:47):
I think they use a lot of hydro electric in
some of those villages now, and they've connected the villages
with the suspension bridges the footbridge.

Speaker 3 (20:55):
Yeah, that's right, which are crazy, especially when you run
into like their ox maybe I don't know, but you
run into like packs of like ox in or whatever
they are. I'm probably butchering that. Yeah, they'll be they'll
we'll be like on the bridge and that you see
them coming on the other side and you're like, we
have to get off this bridge. Yeah, we're about to

(21:15):
get you. Get me nostalgic. I love Nepole. Had a
really good time over there, really cool experience.

Speaker 2 (21:21):
Did uh was there any force protection issues? Like I
remember one. Another funny thing was driving around over there.
They always wanted to put me in the front seat
because we want the maoists to see that we're driving
a white guy around. The reason being is that they
do care about tourism and they don't want to scare
away tourists, so they figure we'll put a white guy
in the front seat and they won't put rocks through

(21:43):
the windshield.

Speaker 3 (21:44):
That's interesting. I never even thought about that. I don't
remember that specifically, but that you bring up the driving.
The driving over there is insane, like some of those
mountain rivers. Yeah, where they're doing like you got like
half a wheelhir Yeah, like that's death right, Yeah, dude
out there chalking it like at the last minute. It's
like they just do it every days, say man, yeah,

(22:06):
and so that the.

Speaker 2 (22:09):
Presumably somewhere along this j set, you guys had actual
work to do. Yeah, we work with We worked with
the Nepalese Rangers.

Speaker 5 (22:16):
Yeah.

Speaker 3 (22:16):
Yeah, so's it was cool And that was my first Jason.
So it's an awesome experience. Just what was it like
working with those guys? They were the language barrier was vast,
like there was no English speaking and the unlike the
Philippines and stuff like that, where they're you know, pretty prominent,
so the language barrier is definitely there. So we had
to really interpreter a lot. But it was good. I

(22:38):
I definitely no matter who, no matter who, interpreter is
hard to say, yeah, but no, it was a it
was a really good experience. They were they were definitely
I don't want to like fastardize this, but they weren't
as competent as I would have expected. I guess for
like a special operation, right, I'd say it was. But

(23:03):
at the same time that was good for us, especially
on a first jasion, because it allowed us to really
like learn how to teach right and really learn how
to be that SF guy instead of working with a
more competent right exactly where it's almost like here peer
to peer, you know. So it allowed us to be
to get into that role. Really, anything else you want

(23:25):
to tell us about Nepal, I think that's it.

Speaker 4 (23:29):
What about the PI, So the p I that first trip,
I'm trying to remember the first trip.

Speaker 3 (23:36):
Nothing significant happened. We worked with the rangers actually on
that trip, Tonge Scout Rangers. They were awesome, man, the
Filipino Army. They were like our little brothers there. Amazing. Yeah,
and they liked the NBA like no one else's business.
It is bizarre. But now that trip was really good.

(23:57):
We kind of had a that was kind of a
cush trip to some extent, like we stayed in hotel
that no. Our OEFP was mexcitse Yeah, so the sixth
month was excite, but that one was actually I don't
even remember the location, to be honest, but no, that
one was good. Actually, I do have one story from

(24:19):
that that I can remember. So I'm an eighteen Charlie
and I'm teaching time fuse and we're just doing like
single blocks of C four with time fuse hooked up
to it. I don't remember whatever, two minute time fuse,
three minute time fee something. And we had like six
blocks laid out like spread up, spread apart in this
open field, right and we get our safe distance and

(24:42):
we put off the time fuse and we go back
to the safe distance and everything's going fine for the
first four blocks, so it's like five four three two
one bang, you know, We're all good. And then the
fifth block, nothing happens, and I'm like, shit, what is happening?
And at the same time, we see like a lit
old brush fire on the side. So it was like

(25:02):
an open field with like big brush on the side
of it. So we see a brush fire starting on
the side and we still have two live blocks, so
we can't do anything right, and this fire starts spreading
like pretty pretty rapidly, and I'm like shit, like this
is you know, this is my second trip as a Charlie.
I'm just like, oh God, like what do we do?
I wanted to go out there, but I can't because

(25:23):
there's live C four out there. So the six block
actually went off. So the six block went off, so
now there's a fifth block that's still just out there,
and I was like, all right. I talked to my
team start and I'm like, dude, we got to do
something like this. This is about to burn down the
jungle in the Philippines. So we gave it a couple

(25:44):
of minutes I think it was like three minutes or something,
which felt like an eternity. And then at that three
minute mark, me and him went down there, kind of
got like a distance look, you know, very like very
cautiously approaching it. But we saw that the time fuse
had gotten cut from that fourth charge, so it projected
and cut that fourth time fuse before it could have

(26:06):
hit the C four. So went out there, cut the
time fuse really close to the sea four grabbed, you know,
obviously the block was fine, and then literally like thirty
or forty Philippine scout rangers and us rushed down and
just start taking pig branches and throwing down and trying
to get tack this fire out. And it was a
good probably fifteen minute process. That's next time, have them

(26:29):
pie into a ring made, right, Yeah, right, right? I know,
so lessons learned? Right? And how I want to ask
you a question because you know, you get this trip
to an Apoli.

Speaker 4 (26:39):
Did this trip to the Philippines while the GI Watt
is still you know, active or Afghanistan.

Speaker 3 (26:44):
Particularly, How did you like, was there any sort of
stigma about that? How did you feel about that?

Speaker 4 (26:53):
Yeah?

Speaker 3 (26:54):
Good question, There was for sure, especially when I buddies
who went to fifth group and third group and were
already deployed, you know, And I'm just like man like.
I don't get me wrong, I enjoyed everything I did
in OKI, and I loved it. But we definitely, or
at least I felt that one one had that, like
you know, the party group and the you guys don't

(27:14):
do real stuff group, you know, because we were doing
jasits and so yes, absolutely, I definitely felt that.

Speaker 4 (27:20):
And for you personally, even though you were having a
great time and you were doing you were doing the
SF job.

Speaker 3 (27:27):
Sure, did you feel like you were missing out? Yes?
Yeah I did for sure. And because you do all
this training right right, I'm just like ready to go
and you wanted want to use it, Yeah, you want
to do the job. So yeah I did, especially because
we our company just deployed Afghanistan. We just missed it,

(27:47):
you know. So it's like and OKI in one one
you don't It's not like a normal rotation like other
groups where you're you know, in a year or a
year and a half, you're going to go. So it
was like, damn, just kind of just miss yeah, like
a couple of years or whatever. So yeah, for sure,
I definitely felt that tell us about the second pump
to the Philippines then, Yeah, So the second one was

(28:11):
a it was a we were working with the law
enforcement there, so the Filipino DA oh okay, yeah, so
it wasn't. It wasn't necessarily military so is that the
police force special action for so they were involved, but
the our primary was the DA. It was the p

(28:31):
d A okay, yeah, p DA DA or something. So
we actually worked at their schoolhouse and we but it
it was treated pretty much like a normal Jason, Like
we did the same shooting pois and demo pois and
medical pois. So it wasn't it wasn't too out of
the ordinary other than who we were working with. But

(28:52):
that was a I mean, I don't remember anything dramatic
or crazy happening in that one, to be honest. It
was just it was a good trip, though, I do that.

Speaker 2 (29:01):
And so when did the ideas start to occur to
you that you were interested in putting in your flight packet.

Speaker 3 (29:07):
Yeah, good question. So when my so OEFP was our
we did a six month rotation to the Philippines after
all of those Philippines trips, so I spent a lot
of time there, and my son was actually born right
before that trip, so I literally like said good luck
and I'm out. And it was like, I think three
weeks after he was born, I was off to the Philippines.

(29:30):
So the nextus of it, and I didn't mention this before,
was I looked into a program called high school to
flight school before I even went eighteen X ray And
that's essentially where you can if you have credentials, right,
if you're like a pilot already or something, you can
go straight into the army and become a warrant and
go fly. So I already had that in the back

(29:52):
of my mind that I kind of had the aviation
bug that I wanted to do it. And with that
deployment and with kind of I don't want to tuck.
I hope this comes out right. Like my wife did
not deal well with me being gone all the time, sure, right,
so she got really stressed out. People don't get married
to be single, true, Yeah, toochet so, and she was

(30:15):
active duty, she had a baby at home, colic baby, right,
so it was a lot of just stress that was
weighing on her. So I kind of I kind of
saw the writing on the wall that like if I
stay in this job and I'm constantly gone all the time,
like I'm kind of putting her through hell to some extent,
you know. So, so I'd looked to the other options,
and I aviation was the thing that I was like, Okay,

(30:35):
this is going to not only accelerate my career pay wise, right,
but it's also going to give me a tangible skill
that if I want to get out, I can fly,
you know. So those are the biggest factors that went
into it. And then during that OEFP deployment was when
I would drop my.

Speaker 2 (30:50):
Flight packet, yeah and tell us then a little bit
about that process of you know, presumably your packet gets
approved and now you're going to flight school.

Speaker 3 (31:00):
Yeah, so it's a pretty comprehensive packet. You do resume,
you do letters of recommendation, the whole kind of traditional
military packet, I guess if you will, and then it
goes in front of a selection board. So there's a
selection board at Fort Rucker that basically goes through all
the candidates and says yes or no, we're gonna give

(31:22):
you a chance to come to flight school or not. Fortunately,
I was obviously selected and got the opportunity. I do
think a lot of it was because of the letters recommendation,
well and probably being an SFKU and I'm sure helped
a lot. But yeah, that's that's kind of how it works.
So and then once you find out you're selected, then

(31:42):
you just play the waiting game and wait for order.
Star Rucker, Fort Rucker, Yeah, good old Fort. Yeah. And
how did flight school go for you? I think we've
talked to a couple one sixtieth pilots about flight school
and you're like going through conventional military training, right, Yeah,
So dude, it was a culture shock to the core

(32:04):
for me. So I was expecting this. I had this
like opinion that in aviation everybody's on a first name basis.
You know, you can grow out your hair, super chill. Yeah,
So I had that false expectation going into it. I
get to four record and you take off your staff
sergeant rank and you put on this stupid like snowbird

(32:26):
rank is what they call it. It's like a WC whatever. Yeah,
basically signaling to everybody that you're a new bid. Yeah
you're the FNG so. So first though, before even flight school,
you go to Warrnan Officer Candidate School, which is, in
my opinion, the stupidest army course. It's changed now, thank god,

(32:47):
but it was not a gentleman's course. It was like
a mini basic training where you you have no phones
or anything for like five weeks. And dude, I'm telling you,
they basically are trying to do basic training over again
in a five week period, which is really.

Speaker 4 (33:00):
Weird because like it's not basic training and it's not
like Offster Canadas, right right, Like you're taking people have
already been in ye who are now you.

Speaker 3 (33:10):
Know, in this really unique world and you're ye triging
them like their boots right exactly. And it was it
was like one of those things where you had to
have your clothes perfectly dressed, right dress and like label
them and like all these just stupid things that you
had to do to get through. It was honestly like
one of those even like how many pots of coffee

(33:31):
can you, like warrant how many course light skinny exactly?
How late can you be for this fore a minute?
Exactly how many cigarettes can you put out in you know,
five seconds? Yeah, So that was like, so that was
just dumb. It was one of those things you just
had to get through. I ended up being like the
cadet commander or whatever you call it for that, which
was actually cool because the last two weeks of it,

(33:55):
I got my own office with my cold sergeant major
and he was a former one sixtieth guy, not a pilot,
but he was going to flight school. So we got
a TV to ourselves, we got a coffee maker, and
we got to go to like Walmart and stuff off base.
So you got the real warrant. Yeah, so we got

(34:15):
the real Yeah. I think that's where it was exactly
if you excel, then you can get.

Speaker 4 (34:20):
The taste of it.

Speaker 3 (34:21):
So so yeah, that was But honestly, that of course
was just a checking the boy and then getting into
flight school. So I was the second flight school class
that flew the new lakotas that ELU. So that also
came with some stigmas of like, you're not a real
pilot training this right, because because it's not the way

(34:42):
we did it in the old days. We went through
the first easy course. Yeah, exactly, didn't have to go
up with both ways anymore. So, but that was a
really cool experience. The Lakota is for anybody that doesn't know,
it's just a little more advanced than the old trainer.
So it has a glass cockpit, which means like digital
and autopilot systems, has a full hydraulics and everything like that.

(35:05):
So it's almost, in my opinion, it's a better training
aircraft for where armaviators are going, right, because we're going
into these advanced airframes that have these systems. So it
allowed us to learn how to use the systems. Still,
we learned how to fly, right, We still like were
they turned off the systems so you learned how to fly.
But but yeah, it was a good It was an

(35:26):
easier transition because of that to the black Hawk.

Speaker 5 (35:29):
Hey guys, our show is sponsored by ghost Bed. Check
them out please to make awesome mattresses, awesome pillows, awesome betting.
Ghostpread provides high quality, is super comfortable, award winning mattresses
crafted in the US and Canada. Did you know that
sixty percent of US adults report being too hot when
they're trying to sleep? That's me, I'm a sweaty little baby.

(35:50):
That's why we designed all of our products with cooling
features so you stay comfortable and asleep all night long.
Pair any of our mattresses with ghost beds winning adjustable
base and get the ultimate sleep experience. GHO Spared Rules
the family owned business sixty thousand plus five star reviews.
They have sleep experts on staff with twenty plus years

(36:11):
of experience. If you have any questions, you can hit
them up and ask them, you know, maybe what kind
of mattresses work for you. Twenty plus year warranty that's
two times the industry standard. Free shipping and returns on mattresses.
Most of the products ship out within twenty four hours.
They have in house customer support and sleep actress sleep
experts chilling in Plantation, Florida. It rules It's the best.

(36:35):
They give you one hundred and one night's risk free
to make sure that these beds are right for you.
If you don't like it after one hundred and one nights,
you could send it back full refund. When you purchase
a ghost bed mattress, you're comfort guaranteed. I'm reading it
right now, and it's capital letters guaranteed. Okay, they do
the right thing and they're a great company. If you're

(36:56):
not sure which ghost bed's right for you, like I
said before, you could take You could take their mattress
quiz online, or you can give a call to one
of their sleep experts and they'll help you with exactly
what you possibly could need, what works for you, and
what doesn't. And the best news about this is Teamhouse
listeners and viewers. You get an extra ten percent off
sitewide for a limited time. You just go to goosped

(37:19):
dot com slash house and use the code house at checkout.

Speaker 3 (37:22):
One more time.

Speaker 5 (37:23):
That's go sped dot com slash house with the code
house ho u se at checkout for an extra ten
percent off site wide. I want to thank go sped
for their continued support. I want to thank all the
fans that listen and watch for their continued support. Without you, guys,
we are nothing. So thank you for supporting the show,

(37:44):
and thank you for supporting the companies that help support
the show. Go sped dot com slash house for ten
percent off, made in the US, made in Canada. Shout
out to our brothers in Canada. They rock. Check them out.
I love ghost Sped thanks guys.

Speaker 3 (38:01):
But in flight school, so since I had the improper
expectations right, and I was expecting to be treated with
respect and all this stuff, that's when I started down
the mental health rout. So my daughter was born when
I was in flight school, and I did not want

(38:23):
to take paternity leave because if you get recycled, who
knows how long you could be just sitting on hold
to go into the next class. So I didn't take
paternity leave, and I was just going, going, going, And
my wife is just God bless her, She's just dealing
with everything right while I'm just trying to succeed in
flight school. And looking back on it now, I can

(38:46):
see why it happened, right, because I was just stressing
myself out to the max. But one day in class,
we were just learning about the black Hawk engine, nothing crazy,
and I just got hit with this random, suicidal thought
and came out of nowhere. And it was the problem
for me was that I wasn't able to just be like, huh,

(39:06):
that's weird, right and let it go. I like obsessed
over it, like I was like, why the hell did
this happen? I've never been through this. I don't know
how to react to it and how the hell do
I fix this? Right? And that just reinforce this like
endless thought, you know, and obviously I didn't know it.
That's probably like you doubled down on how hard you're
working exactly. Yeah. So and that's that's a good point

(39:29):
because it lasted for a long time, Like it lasted
for a good five years, and I kept trying to
just succeed my way out of it, right, you know,
which I think is a blessing, you know, because because
I didn't, you know, I didn't take my life and
I didn't get to that point because I did have
a purpose. But at the same time, like I also

(39:51):
didn't give myself the space to like actually figure out
what was going on. So you weren't seeking out any
like formal mental health treatment at this time. So I
did one time. So there was one day where I
was leaving leaving class from flight school and driving home
and I was I was scared to go home because

(40:12):
of you know, I was just scared.

Speaker 4 (40:14):
It was going to happen that night. Was it like
an ideation? It was, it was like a vision, like
I literally like visualize it. Yeah, did I wanted to
revivify this. No, No, you're okay.

Speaker 5 (40:28):
So what was this for?

Speaker 3 (40:29):
Like I like.

Speaker 4 (40:33):
This would like I just wanted to be over, like
like this would be just be it just be like
so easy, like so easy to just like so and
whatever I'm feeling.

Speaker 3 (40:44):
Yes, that, And I literally saw myself. So it was
always worse when I was laying in bed, which is
pretty universal, but I had my pistol in my fingerprint
safe next to my bed, and I literally saw myself
like do it. Obviously like you don't see yourself die,
but like I saw myself do it. And it was

(41:07):
that vision kept coming up in my head and it
was to the point where it was like I can't
escape this thought right right, like so yeah, to your point,
it was like like it's just not going to go away.
It's it's going to be like this forever and and
and you.

Speaker 4 (41:22):
Know, it's one of those things I think, like any
sort of like uh, those recursive thoughts once you sink
into it, you know, if you can't just like let
it go right like once you sink into it, did
it just yeah?

Speaker 5 (41:35):
Yeah?

Speaker 3 (41:35):
And it started it started becoming like every situation too,
like if I was driving even with my family. It
was terrifying because I was like, we're driving over a
bridge and I'm just like I could do it right, right,
you know, and it was just they would just keep
attacking me. So but I went to the chaplain that
day because I was like, I can't go home, like

(41:56):
I have to go talk to somebody. So I went
to the chaplain, told him what was going on, kind
of poured my heart out to him, and he took
me to Behavioral Health while I'm in flight school at
Fort Rutger. So, yeah, you were scared, right, I was terrified.
I didn't want to go to behavior right.

Speaker 4 (42:10):
That's why I went to right because isn't there like
a myth that if you go to the chaplain, he's
not going to tell anything.

Speaker 3 (42:16):
That's what I thought, right, And that's I didn't like
look into it before, but I just thought so. And
apparently because he told me that he's like obligated if
I say, like I have self harmed thoughts or whatever,
he's obligated to take me. So literally, I had to
get in his car and go to behavioral Health with him.
That terrified, it was so scary, and filled out this
stupid suicide questionnaire, right, it was like it was basically

(42:39):
assessing like your seriousness, how serious you are? Did you
lie on it? So I didn't have to, fortunately, because
the questionnaire was like there's a couple of questions. It
was like, do you have thoughts of suicide? Yes? Like
do you have thoughts of harming others? No? Do you
have a plan to do it? No? Because I didn't
really right, but I didn't wasn't like I'm gonna go

(43:00):
do this right, And then do you want to do
it was another example of the question and I was like, no,
you know, I don't want this. That's just happening to me.
I wouldn't be talking. Yeah, exactly. So so I filled
that out and then the lady takes me back in
the room and I kid, you know, she just has
the clipboard that I filled out, and she just reads
it to me, just reads my answers, and at the

(43:20):
end of it, her synopsis was, well, I think this
is something temporary that you're going through, so I'm going
to let you continue training, basically kind of the comeback
if you need us right well, and I was like,
thank god, though too right, it's a blessing in disguise,
But at the time, I was like, are you freaking kidding?
Like this was a cry for help, right, and you're

(43:41):
just going to throw me out to the wolves. So
that kind of like solidified that, like, all right, I'm
not going to behavior a hole, like I am freaking
fixing this on that and I'm not definitely not going
to chat. So that solidified. Yeah, right, I know, dude,
like that was supposed to be the same. Yeah, exactly,
so me and God right exactly. Yeah, Honestly, I was
hoping the chaplain would just be like, come see me

(44:03):
once a week.

Speaker 2 (44:04):
It's it's the same with a licensed psychologist if you say,
I'm gonna like yeah, But.

Speaker 3 (44:09):
Chaplains are supposed to be like that's supposed to be
like sacred. Yeah, And I think they even like advertise
that to something I have an open door.

Speaker 4 (44:18):
I think they allow it to kind of self perpetuate.
You know, they might like push it along. But you're
not safe, right, And when I say you're not safe, like, obviously,
chaplains should report it, obviously if they think that somebody
is in duress or you know, a threat to themselves.

(44:39):
But but the thing is that like whether it's a
veteran who's worried about red flag laws or somebody on
active duty who is worried about getting pulled from their
unit or whatever, flight.

Speaker 3 (44:52):
School or whatever like.

Speaker 4 (44:54):
There have to and there have to be ways for
people to address these things like sound off, right, There
have to be ways for people to address these things.

Speaker 3 (45:04):
That where they feel safe that they're not going to
be punished for it exactly. And that's that's kind of
my whole like stigma thing, right, and that's what my
book's about. It's, yeah, like we have to break that
because so many dudes, and you guys probably see it
more than I do, but so many guys are still

(45:24):
making that decision right and still ending it all because,
in my opinion, because they don't feel safe or don't
feel like they can go get the help.

Speaker 4 (45:32):
And I think the military has proven itself even until
today and Jack probably knows more about this than I do,
that they can't be trusted.

Speaker 3 (45:41):
Like if you go for help many times that.

Speaker 2 (45:45):
Will there are protections, but there's a very specific way,
and I think it's actually the behavior health clinic at
the hospital, like the TMC on Post. If you go
in there and say I'm having a mental health crisis,
there are some protections in place for you, but if
you go to anywhere else, if you go to your
first sergeant, you go to the company commander, you go

(46:05):
to the chaplain, they can not always, but they can
totally fuck you. Which I'm not saying they're all out
to get you. A lot of them will do the
right thing and get you the help you need. But historically, yeah,
there are guys that totally.

Speaker 3 (46:19):
Yeah, I mean if if like if.

Speaker 4 (46:22):
They want to get somebody off their books because they
don't you want it to be a black man.

Speaker 2 (46:27):
I mean, I don't know if I don't know if
they still had it when you were around. I mean,
but when I was in the army, I mean there
was like a strong social shaming aspect of it that
somebody who's somebody who said I'm having suicidal thoughts had
to wear a road guard vest and escorted around by
two soldiers at all times.

Speaker 3 (46:43):
Yes, And one thing that that reminds me of thirtieth AG, Like, yeah,
so thirtieth AG for the audience is like your first
day in the Army. Like when you're in processing to
go to basic training, you go to thirtieth AG. The
worst place in North yeahplace ever just purgatory. But I
just remember distinctly remember there being this like there was

(47:05):
like a quad, right, like an open quad, and then
there was a balcony or whatever you want to call it,
a railing, and there were soldiers up there that were
pulled from training and had their shoelaces taken away because
they were suicidal, and the drill sergeants talked shit about them, right,
like if you fuck up, you're gonna end up like them.
And that's that's the day that everybody learned, like, all right,

(47:26):
if you have health problems, you don't talk right, like,
you keep your mouth shut and you just freaking drive on.

Speaker 4 (47:32):
So so you go to behavioral health. She gives you
kind of the you know, clean Dell health. Do you
tell your wife about this?

Speaker 3 (47:39):
Yeah? So that Yeah, so my wife picked me up
actually because I didn't want the chap on to drive
me back my wife. My wife was pissed, like she
was mad at me because I went there instead of
talking to her first, more pissed that like she didn't
know right, and then in this right, yeah, oh absolutely absolutely,

(48:02):
So that's how she found out. Well, actually I misspoke,
so she found out before this. Okay, but she thought
it was a one time thing. And how she found out,
which is also a messed up. I told her, hey, babe,
I need you to go in our safe, take apart

(48:22):
my gun and hide the components from me. That's how
she found out because I was just I couldn't go
to bed with my gun right there available, So that's
how she initially found out. And then I think this
was a couple weeks later when I went to the chaplain.
That's when she came, and she was pissed because we
hadn't talked about it since then. It was just kind

(48:43):
of one of those things that I don't think she
knew how to deal with it right, and then obviously
I didn't know how to deal with it. So yeah,
she was mad. She was mad one because she knew
the repercression, she knew what could happen. And she was
also mad that I even had to go to be
because she like she knew that I went to the

(49:04):
chaplain first, so she was mad about that aspect too,
that I got forced to go there. So so it's twofold. Yeah,
So what what happened the next day at work at
cool I can't even remember to be honest, it was
a blur. But but did they do me say anything
to you? No, No, nothing happened.

Speaker 5 (49:20):
You know.

Speaker 3 (49:20):
What's interesting is I didn't hear a squeak about that,
and I didn't even know it was in my medical
records until I was getting out of the army and
I like reviewed everything and I was like, huh, there
actually is a note in there about that. Because I
was in my mind, I was like, man, that really happened.

Speaker 2 (49:38):
Yeah, yeah, well but it sounds like the chaplain did
maintain its confidence, so I think that's probably what happened.

Speaker 3 (49:43):
Did he ever check on you though?

Speaker 4 (49:44):
Now the chaplain ever came out gave you like a
starburst and said, hey, how are you doing?

Speaker 3 (49:51):
No crazy? That is kind of crazy pocket Bible. Yeah,
I think he just I think he just took the
clinician's word for it, maybe, you know, and and trusted
me to come back if I needed to. I don't know,
So I'm trying to give them the benefit of doubt.

Speaker 4 (50:04):
But that's kind of because generally chaplains are really they're
like ned Flanders, right, Yeah, for sure, you know, like
a lot of chaplains are like that.

Speaker 3 (50:14):
You know, I remember you had this two years ago. Yeah.

Speaker 2 (50:19):
I remember a few chaplains that were like fire and Brimstone,
like ranger, Jesus wants you to kill America's enemies.

Speaker 4 (50:25):
Yeah, but they were also but I mean we had
one of those. But he was also like, you know,
he would come and check.

Speaker 3 (50:32):
On Yeah you care. I wonder if it was like
one of those things that Rutgers just such a big
trade off. Yeah, you know.

Speaker 2 (50:39):
Yeah, he was just like, so, you're dealing with some
pretty significant stressors in life, and at the same time
you get assigned a third combat aviation brigade.

Speaker 3 (50:49):
What was that experience like when you hit the ground there. Yeah,
so I actually yeah, so Third Comment Aviation Brigade was
cool because I wanted to go there, like I wanted Savannah.
It was my first choice because they were deploying soon,
so they were going to Afghanistan. Because it's a new pilot,
like flight hours is everything. So the faster you can

(51:10):
get progressed and get to pilot and command, which is
when you're like in charge of the aircraft, the better
for your career. So it was good, but it was
very much not big boy rules like I expected. Kind of,
like I said, the warrant officers in aviation end up
being kind of the the people that do all the

(51:32):
details and stuff because the crew chiefs, they enlisted guys
are busy like maintaining the aircraft so that all falls
in the warrant officers the right yeah, or they're doing
flight schedules, you know what I mean. So it was like,
so the warrant officers, one dude will be in charge
of like I was the goggle custodian, so I was
in charge of inventorying, maintaining that all the MVG's one
guy will be the supply sergeant for the company, like

(51:54):
as a warrant officer and still having to fly. So
there's a lot of like extra duties they have to do.
So I think the the short answer is I wasn't
happy with my choice to go aviation initially and even
through Afghanistan, Like I just wasn't happy with it. The
long answer was like, at the same time, it's cool.
It's still cool, like playing helicopters and progressing through that

(52:17):
and stuff like that.

Speaker 4 (52:17):
So you know, one of the things that up to
this point that I appreciate about your story is like
a lot of times people associate like a lot of
the mental health stuff and whatnot with like this really
severe posh aumatic stress it's really chizing event and all
this stuff. But it doesn't like it doesn't have to
be connected to them like it can just it can
be stressors, you know, you know the way we perceive ourselves,

(52:41):
the way you know, what the standards were holding ourselves
to whatever is. But it can come from anywhere at
any time, Yeah, for sure. And it's a testament to that.

Speaker 3 (52:50):
And this is not to brag by any means, Okay,
but you see all these high performing guys like end
up taking their lives right and everybody's like what happened? Like,
how could that happen to him? I thought he had
his life altogether right, and he did on the outside,
and that's kind of what I was, right, Like I
ended up graduating of this the distinguished on a graduate
in my flight school class through all that, you know,

(53:12):
even when dealing with all that, like so that just
shows like that you can mask it. And it's it's
fairly easy to mask it, to be honest, Like you
just kind of stuff it down and keep going and
deal with it on your own. That's kind of why
I want to say that is because like there's a
lot of people out there that are very high performing

(53:32):
and they fall into this trap and real common with
the soft guys, Like like one friend of mine used
to say, you know it's being functionally fucked up. Yeah,
you know that It's true your high performing, but your
internal world is just total turmoil.

Speaker 4 (53:45):
And I think I think that for a lot of
especially soft guys, I think that there is a lot
of miscorrelation with post traumatic stress, and that I think
so to stuff. I think that I think there is
post traumatic stress, but I don't I assily I think
that the post traumatic stress is what leads to it's
there's so many other.

Speaker 3 (54:05):
Things I agree, especially with the guy's transitioning right, yes,
because they're going so hard and then the noise stops
and they're like what do I do? Like who am
I you know?

Speaker 4 (54:14):
With with your process of going through do you you know,
did you ever were able to put the finger on
sort of what the trigger aspect or the balance aspect.

Speaker 3 (54:24):
Of it was for you? Kind of So I just
looked at looking back, I can look at like the
stressors that were leading up to it, right, So, like
my transition from SF me not being happy with my
aviation decision, the grind to flight school, and then my
daughter being born, her not sleeping, you know, so sleep
was all jacked up. My wife was also stressed out.

(54:46):
So it was a lot of like compounding factors that
just kind of landed at the same time and led
to it. But the weird thing is there was no
like slow lead up, right, Like, it wasn't like I
was just like, ah, life sucks, you know, it's just
like boom, dude, they field and told the same story. Yeah, exactly. Yeah,
So that that was the most bizarre thing because I
did not I had never dealt with anything before, you know,

(55:09):
like that, so I had no idea.

Speaker 4 (55:10):
Well, you know, and I think you know, like you know,
they talk about the twenty two a day and twenty
three a day, but also if you look at men
at a certain age or whatever that they're you know
that their statistics is much So it's not just the veteran.
It's not just the combat veteran. It's not just the
soft but it's definitely a very male oriented like you know,

(55:34):
whether it's we feel like we're not living up or
we feel disillusion whatever it is, whatever combination.

Speaker 3 (55:41):
Yes, I feel like we just take on so much, right,
and we feel like we just we have to we
just have to push through. Notter what Yeah, I think
so too. Very interesting. Yeah, so your missus must have
been thrilled when you got deployed to Afghanistan.

Speaker 5 (55:55):
Yeah.

Speaker 3 (55:56):
Fortunately by this time she was out of the army. Okay,
So it was better she was out of the army,
we were stable in Savannah. Like, she didn't have the stress.
She she was a signal officer and she hated the army.
She hated her job, like it was just one of
those things that she was just like, get me out
of here. I can't wait to get out. So stress
was mitigated by that a lot. And the kids weren't

(56:18):
babies anymore, so they were it was a little better.
Yeah know, like so yeah, it was it was more
tolerable for her. Honestly, I probably had a worse time
than she did during that nine months because I was
still dealing with the crap. So you were a black
Hawk guy, black Hawk pilot. What was the Afghanistan deployment
like very frustrating?

Speaker 4 (56:38):
Yeah?

Speaker 3 (56:38):
Yeah, because seventeen eighteen, ok. Yeah, so flight school was
twenty fifteen to twenty seventeen and then Afghana was seventeen eighteen.
Very frustrating because as a like former SF dude, I
wanted to do the cool stuff, get after it. I
wanted to bring people to X. I wanted to you know,

(56:58):
be doing the missions. And ninety five percent of our
flying was acid trash, just moving people from the string routes.
Whether it was day or night, it didn't matter it
was And when we did get a mission that was supporting,
like an SF team or something, the senior guys would
take it and none of the junior guys got to

(57:19):
go on it. So it was one of those things
where I was like cool, Like how am I going
to learn if I don't get the chance. So by
the end of that deployment, apparently I had a thing
with ended of deployments and changing careers, but I dropped
my one sixtieth packet because I was like, I am
getting out of the army or I'm going to the
one sixtieth Like I didn't sign up to be a
pilot to go fly right in land driver. Yeah, Like

(57:43):
that's not what I wanted to do. So at the
end of that deployment, I finally that was the blessing
of the deployment though, is I got a lot of hours,
so I got I went far ahead of my peers,
like so in the matter of a year, I was
able to drop my one sixtieth packet, which they do
have minimum requirements for hours, so it's five hundred hours.

(58:05):
Five hundred hours and piloting command, so you have to
be a piloting command and have five hundred flight hours
at least when I assessed, that's what it was. So
I hit that at probably the month seventh mark of
my deployment, and I was I dropped it right away,
got my letters, wreck and everything, and then by the
end of that deployment, I had an invitation to go assess,
so I got back in June twenty eighteen and then

(58:26):
August I assessed, So it was like it was perfect
because I was in nine month deployment shape, you know,
going into assessments and what was assessment like for you?
It was definitely hard, mostly because I was still dealing
with this crap, so I was at this point it
was I was having these like physical Dizzey spells, So

(58:47):
the depression had morphed into these Dizzey spells, which I
didn't know what they were at the time, but they're
panic attacks, which I didn't know, so I was dealing
with that. So that part was tough. And then assessment
is one of those things where it's meant for you
to feel like you're failing the whole time, so you don't.
I don't think anybody goes to it and it's like, yeah,
I crush that right right, So but it was it

(59:11):
was also at the same time, as hard as it was,
it was a good insight into the regiment and into
how professional and next level they are, because I, to
be honest, I was feeling pretty confident in my ability
to fly and my ability to brief and plan because
I had just come off the deployment and a lot
of like repetition, and I get to the assessment and

(59:33):
you have to put together brief and stuff, and I
got torn apart in that brief, like just annihilated, and
so many questions that they asked me I just had
no answer for. I didn't even know what they were
talking about some of the times, and that was just
kind of like, Okay, this is the big league, so
like this is where I want to be type of thing.

(59:54):
So so yeah, it specially it was definitely hard, more
mentally and just you're just sleep deprived and having to
do a bunch of things, so more mentally challenging than physically.
The physical stuff was. It wasn't bad. It was like
pet tests and stuff like that. So I feel like
you should. Were you surprised to learn that you survived

(01:00:14):
that panel? That board? Have you heard about that? Yeah?
So so the one sixtieth you're talking about the end
of assessment? Yeah, yeah, so the one sixtieth board at
the end of assessment. This is uh, I can't give
too much away, but what I've heard and what I
know now is that if you crush the assessment, they're

(01:00:37):
going to be dicks to you, like they're just going
to tear you apart and zere you react. Right, It's
kind of their last view. It's kind of their last
view of like, all right, let's tear him down and
let's see what he does. And so I get through
with my board and I was shaking the whole time. Actually,
an interesting point is you have to talk to the
site during one point in assessment, and I was still

(01:00:59):
hiding everything, and during my assessment, I was like shaking
and he called me out on my board and he said,
you look extremely anxious right now. And I've played it off.
And I was like, I mean, I am, sir, this
is a lot of pressure, you know what I mean,
Like I played it off, but like at the same time,
I was like, shit, he sees right through me, you know.
So I leave the board. It's like I think it

(01:01:21):
was an hour long board. I leave it. I go
in this waiting room. It seems like forever they you know,
it's where they you know, get their counsel together and
say whether you made it or not. And I come
back report back to the room. And when I walk
in there's a paper sign handwritten it said no go.
I was like, you know, like all his freaking work.

(01:01:42):
So I walk in and stand at attention and the
president of the board I think it was the DCO.
So it's not the regim medical commander but the guy
below him, and he was like, mister Kelly, like, I
appreciate you coming. You know, you put your good, good
foot forward. We want you to go back to your
unit and then come back here in grape Tune in January.

(01:02:05):
And I was like wait a second, Like I mean
I passed you know, and like then everybody started clapping
and stuff, So yeah, I know, I was like, yeah, yeah,
roller coaster. Can you imagine somebody who like spasses out
at that moment.

Speaker 2 (01:02:26):
I heard a story about a gentleman at the board
for Delta Force selection who picked up the folding chair
and wung it at the board members.

Speaker 3 (01:02:35):
Whoa, because he's just like fucking with the.

Speaker 2 (01:02:39):
SF guy, right and at a certain point, like I
can't take that all right, dude, Yeah.

Speaker 3 (01:02:44):
I get it right, Dang, that's crazy like thunderdome. Yeah. Yeah,
So that was my That was my assessment. How did
that feel for you?

Speaker 5 (01:02:53):
Like?

Speaker 3 (01:02:53):
Amazing? Amazing? And I will say that the suicidal stuff
did kind of get better, like it was now. It
wasn't like over consuming, It wasn't like every day I
was dealing with it now, it was like every once
in a while. But the anxiety was still there, like
the Dizney spells were still there. But the suicidal ideations
did get better as my situation improved. Did you at all?

Speaker 4 (01:03:16):
You know, because you know you were in SSEF but
you didn't go to Afghanistan. Then you went aviation and
you were doing the ring rape. Did you at all
feel as though you kept missing it like this, like
this world just wasn't what it was supposed to be
for you.

Speaker 3 (01:03:32):
Because and then Cherry on top is my brother has
kind of followed my footsteps, so he went SSEF and everything,
and when I got back from Afghanistan, he goes to
Afghanistan with tenth Group and sees all his share right
and does all this awesome stuff. And I'm just like, dude,
come on, I've been in the Army for you know

(01:03:52):
this long, and this is your first trip. So yeah,
I definitely had that. I definitely had that, like the
stain of like, you know, two deployments. I don't even
have a CIB or a or a cab for that matter,
like you know, like, so yeah, I definitely had that.
It was like because it was one of those things
where you always wonder, right like sure, like even though

(01:04:13):
I know I would have done the job and I
would have it's not like I would have ran away.

Speaker 5 (01:04:16):
But.

Speaker 3 (01:04:18):
It's always a question. Yeah, it's still that thing of
like how was a green platoon when you got there?
Green Platune was? It was great? So I I when
I got when I found out I was going to
the one sixtieth, I was told I was going to
go to first Battalion and uh fly DAPs. So I
was told I was going to go be a DAP pilot. Yeah,

(01:04:40):
So I was pumped about it, and I made the
fatal mistake and bought a house in Fort Campbell and
found out about I think a month prior to reporting
that I was going to third Battalion and not flying DAPs.
So I was going to Savannah, Savannah, back to Savannah.
So we had to make the kind of decision of like,
all right, we'll just rent out the house if it,
you know, it doesn't appreciate value or whatever. So I

(01:05:04):
show up to greenp Tune and the first part of
Green Tune is Officer greenp Tunes. So that's when you're
doing like the the kind of soft version of basic training,
if you will, right like they're they're teaching you, which
is actually good, Like it was actually even being a
former SF guy, it was still good because I got
a lot of reinforcement. Was just finally though the warrant

(01:05:25):
world that you thought, yes, there was, yes, this very professional,
very much so. Yeah, and the enlisted guys, it's a
different story. The enlisted greenp tune. That's they're getting smoked
and they're getting kind of indoctrinated. But that's also a
lot of them are like straight from basic training, are
so rightly so yeah, but it did feel good to

(01:05:46):
be on the other side for a while, right, So, yeah,
we got the big boy rules got to do. It
was a lot of like medical training, shooting, some landing
av things like that. Nothing crazy, But then you move
into your b NAB, which is basic navigation, and that's
where you learn to navigate in there without any instruments

(01:06:09):
literally a map, a map and a stopwatch and you're
flying off way points. Yeah, it was plus minus thirty.
It was so hard. Yeah, you but the cool thing
is you do I think you do nine missions total
and it's this is a three week period where you're
you're ingrained in it, like you're sixteen hour days every
single day. But missions i'd say one through three like

(01:06:33):
nobody finds their target and nobody's on time, you know.
But then by mission four and five, like you start
finding it and you start getting on time, and it's
pretty awesome to see like what you can do right
with that training because you have to adjust for wins
and all this stuff and that's all in a little bird.
So you're flying a little bird and literally just using
a finger light on your map and like, all right,

(01:06:53):
I hope that's that intersection, you know, and like, yeah,
it's it's pretty cool. Yeah, it's pretty cool to to
see it all come together. And then by mission nine,
like yeah, everybody's sitting in their target.

Speaker 4 (01:07:04):
Do you feel like your time in stuff, you know,
having done you know, the star course and all that stuff.
Do you feel that that helped you?

Speaker 3 (01:07:13):
Yeah? I think just honestly, like the basic land navigation
concepts right where I because I did start out right, yeah, yeah,
and I started out that course. I do feel like
I had a leg up on everybody already because of that. Yeah,
especially especially in the Green teone part, but definitely in
bing app I think I think that helped a lot. Yeah,

(01:07:33):
and just understanding how it works back to assessment, so
we have to do that in assessment too. And I
actually humble brag I was one of the rare people
that found my target. I wasn't on time, but I
found it and I was so proud of myself. And
then of course the cadre or the my assessment pilot
was like you suck. You didn't you know? You were

(01:07:53):
out of time, out of standard, you know, And I'm
just like, come on, man, I've heard nobody finds their
even if you would have been on time, I know something.
Yeah sure, but but yeah, So that's been at and
then after that you go into your airframe, so you
go into I went into the sixty course and that
was incredible.

Speaker 5 (01:08:10):
Man.

Speaker 3 (01:08:10):
That is where you learn to fly, like like the
one sixtieth, Like that's where you're going to uh Colorado,
going to Virginia Beach and doing overwater mountains and learning
to put one wheel on a pinnacle and it's it's
really cool. Yeah, it's really cool. And one of the
cooler parts of that course too is you're being taught
by like one sixtieth legends, like these guys are they're

(01:08:33):
just contractors now, you know, and they're insanely like relaxed
but also insanely just competent good at what they do.
Like those guys are just ye phenomenal pilots.

Speaker 4 (01:08:45):
So I guess I think for people who may not
be familiar with like how the one sixtieth, it is
different than you know, like conventional army especially with like
black Hawks and stuff. Is you you think of like
like maybe a BMX writer, right, you know, a guy

(01:09:05):
doing jomps blah blah blah. And then you think of
the guys who like hop up on rails and ride
down rails and bunny hop on you know, like between
like pillars and stuff like that, and it's like, what
what the one sixtieth pilots are capable of doing on
any airframe? Yeah, but are capable of doing is insane?
It's incredible. Yeah, it's incredible.

Speaker 3 (01:09:25):
There's even and some of the pilots in the one
sixtieth are a lot like I would I would consider
myself like a decent pilot, right, And there's some pilots
that are just insanely phenomenal. Yeah, Like I fly with
one guy, one guy in my unit that I can
distinctly remember, like he was so good that I was
nervous in the cockpit with him flying. But it wasn't

(01:09:47):
like because he was dangerous. He was just that good
and that like all right, yeah, let's do this, and
I'm just like dangered. I wouldn't do that, you know. Yeah.
So it's pretty cool to see though, and it's cool
to be a part of really cool to be a
part of, and then you get deployed to Iraq. Yeah
with the unit. Yeah, so this was the infamous COVID deployment.
So we went out there and it was supposed to

(01:10:09):
be a sixty day deployment and then the world shut
down and we got to enjoy it for another sixty days.
So it ended up doubling, which doesn't seem long, but
when you're in the one sixty at the op tempo
is insane, Like it's every day, twelve hour days, you know,
so you're not like it's not like a nine month
deployment where you're like five days on, one day off
or whatever it is. You know, it's it's balls of

(01:10:30):
the wall every single day and you're going hard. So yeah,
it ended up being a yeah, a four month deployment.
I don't know how much I can even get into
it about there, like the specifics of that, But did
you finally feel like that's what I was going to say,
That's what I was going to say.

Speaker 4 (01:10:48):
Yeah, that's where I got airframe, Like, this is it
I'm finally doing. That's where I got it in Yeah,
and that's where I was. Yes, that's where I was
finally like finally, yes, I've done something that I signed
up to do.

Speaker 3 (01:11:00):
You know, which was the coolest part about regiment is
that I know Lindsay mentioned it, but like we truly
train as we fight, and like on deployments, we do
the job that we're supposed to do, you know what
I mean, Like we do the mission that we're designed
to do. We're not just like, oh yeah, maybe we'll
do that once an once in a while. Is there

(01:11:21):
any that you can kind of like even around about
sort of way, Yeah, yeah, so I can talk about
one where I'm not gonna like say locations or anything.
But we took this is this is kind of a
funny story in a way because I don't have like
I don't have any like crazy like you know, yeah,

(01:11:42):
like I don't have any like valor worthy stories, you know.
But one funny story is so we were the dirty
Bird since it was COVID, so we had to figure out, like,
all right, if we take someone off target, like what
are we doing with them? You know? So what we
figured out or what we decided, I didn't just the
higher ups decided that was we're gonna have one aircraft

(01:12:03):
dedicated to any detainees or anybody would take off target
and they're gonna be the dirty bird. So we take
someone off target and this poor guy had to be
like wrapped in a body bag, COVID swabed and all
this stuff, and fly back like three hours I think
two and a half hours maybe in a black Hawk,
just pitch black right just on the ground in a
body bag, literally like no idea, what's going on. And

(01:12:27):
then when we landed we had to Our decontamination plan
was literally like going a connex that they put heat
lamps in, stripped down and rinse off and then throw
on whatever, just normal clothes and leave our uniform in
there for twenty four hours. So that was like our
decon plan. And while everything was good, but like that's

(01:12:51):
that's like the most It's just dumb. Yeah, it's just dumb.
Like looking back on I'm like, why did we do
any of that? You know, but like nobody knew what
to do. That was just like the answer for it.
But other than that, man, I don't have any like
crazy stories, like we did our job and nothing fortunately,
nothing really went went sideways. Yeah, except there was one

(01:13:15):
mission that this is another missing out opportunity. So there
were valor awards on this mission, and our aircraft was
broken so we didn't go. So four other aircraft go
on this mission, and it was like a q r
F in the mountains and like right on the exert. Yeah.
It was actually I don't remember the specifics, but it

(01:13:38):
was like on a mountain side, yeah, and they had
to go do some high hovers and faster people and
actually I think repel people out was what it was. Yeah.
So it was pretty intense, like hovering at like a
high hover, you know, getting shot at, repelling people out.

Speaker 4 (01:13:53):
I mean that's just so that's Vietnam War, right, It
really falls of steel to just keep a bird in
place when everybody has a beat on, you're helpless, Yeah,
because you got to, like the troops gotta get down exactly.

Speaker 3 (01:14:06):
Yeah, you pull off and they're taken. That's a long
ass fast rope. Yeah yeah. Yeah.

Speaker 2 (01:14:13):
So, so getting back to the United States from that deployment,
like what's going on with you personally and professionally at
that juncture.

Speaker 3 (01:14:21):
So I didn't at this point, I was still progressing.
So in the one sixtieth when you first get there,
you're BMQ, so basic mission qualified, So that's like the
entry level whatever your goal is to make FMQ so
fully mission qualified, so that's when you it's the same
as a piloting command in the regular arm so that's

(01:14:42):
when you have control of your aircraft and you're like
in charge of your career. So that was like I
was progressing towards that during the deployment in Iraq. The
good part about the COVID problem was that we did
have like it got shut down for it, so weren't
doing anything for a little bit, So there was some
training opportunities, so I got to actually like lead some

(01:15:05):
missions training missions right, but I got to plan, brief
and execute all those and get those done, which were
helped me kind of progress towards that FMQ. But then in.

Speaker 4 (01:15:17):
January of the next year, so Iraq was twenty twenty
and January the next year, I.

Speaker 3 (01:15:28):
Had my FMQ right scheduled for April of that year,
but I was having a lot of knee issues, like
to the point where I couldn't run more than half
a mile without having to stop. So I got an
MRA on it, and they found that I had like
a defect in my knee, like there was literally like
a hole missing in my knee, that it was just

(01:15:48):
bone on bone, just grinding. Yeah, I think it was
just like wear and tear over time. But I also
think that there had to been some genetic shit. It
doesn't happen to everybody. So I ended up having to
get knee surgery that January, and that was a nine
month like recovery time, so blessing and a curse.

Speaker 5 (01:16:06):
Like.

Speaker 3 (01:16:06):
I was pissed off, obviously because I wanted to like
continue progressing. But during that nine month period, that allowed
me to accept the fact that I was already grounded
and tell somebody about these daisy spells. So that gave me,
that gave myself the permission to be like, all right,
let's try to figure this out. Now that I now
that the consequence that I was scared of is gone,

(01:16:28):
I'm not flying, Let's try to figure this out. So
what that leads to, though, this is a really long story,
so interrupt me if it's like that.

Speaker 4 (01:16:38):
Before you start that. I want to ask you one
thing I want to before you start this story. Yeah,
when you were you know, like just hop and pop
in like in a rock, did won the ideation and
to the anxiety was this still there.

Speaker 3 (01:16:55):
Did it seem to go away with the adrenaline and
stuff like that. Yeah, that's a great question. So the
suicidal ideation was pretty much gone by that point. I
was still having the dizzy spells and the anxiety. But
the ironic thing is that never happened in the aircraft,
right it was I think it was the adrenaline though.
I think it was the adrenaline and the focus required,

(01:17:15):
right because like the zone. Yeah, so I really, I mean,
I don't know, but that's what I attributed to because
like that would have been a different story if I
was just a total focus exactly, and you're like task,
So your mind's just but it's.

Speaker 4 (01:17:30):
So pure, right, like those moments of like that, you know,
whether it's an athletic flow state or whatever, the combat
is just so pure that it's don't even hard for
anything else to be there.

Speaker 3 (01:17:43):
No, that's a really good point, yeah, because that would
have that would have definitely been like a safety hasard,
like I would have been like, okay, I should probably
do something. So no, it never did, thank god. But
then so during after the knee surgery, I told my
flight surgeon that I have these dizzey spells, and I
was like, I don't. I didn't tell her my history

(01:18:04):
of mental health because I was not ready to open
that can of worms yet. So I was basically sugarcoating
it if you will, you know. I was like, hey,
I don't know what's going on. I'm just yeah, I'm
just having these Disney spells. I don't really know how
to explain it. So that's exactly what they did. They
sent me to E and T, got my ears checked out.
That was all fine. So then to spare you the
long details, we do head to toe tests right to

(01:18:26):
rule out physiological things. But one of those tests was
a sleep study. So I go for a sleep study
with a civilian doctor in Savannah that I got referred to,
and after that sleep study, I got diagnosed with narcolepsy
as a pilot, right. So yeah, so I was like, okay,

(01:18:48):
like one that might answer these Disney spells. Maybe I'm
like falling asleep having micro naps right and causing my
body to be like, yeah, you know you were you
were falling over. I don't know. So there was a
sense of relief in a weird way because of that, right,
Like I was like, finally I have an answer for
what's going on. But then the Army, so my flight

(01:19:10):
doc is like, okay, dude, like you can either reclass
or you get out of the Army, like you can't
fly with narcole ems where this has never been like
you never happened, You never nod like that never happened.
I will say I will say that like during that
anxiety period, like when I would drive home at like
three pm, four pm, I was exhausted and having like

(01:19:33):
a lot of daytime sleepiness. But I that's also because
I was so anxious all the time, and I was
like my body was working overdrive, right, So so in
my mind the diagnosis was like okay, like it kind
of makes sense, and I kind of talked myself into
it making sense. Right, So my flight doc puts in
a med board and they decline it because the sleep
study wasn't done by the Army, of course, So I'm

(01:19:56):
like all right, sweet, So so now I'm just grounded still.
And by this time, so this was the end of
that year. By this time, I knew was recovered, so
I wasn't like so I kind of felt like a
back of ass because I was like, you know, I'm grounded,
but I could fly if I needed to, So do
the Army sleep study. I have to go to Fort
Gordon and do all that, and the results came back
and they say, you have no diagnosable criteria for narcolepsy,

(01:20:19):
freaking kidding me. So you're back on flight status. No,
because they permanently grounded me when I got diagnosed with
narcolepsy the first time. Rutgers like, Okay, we'll accept this
diagnosed right permanent army. But the army won't let you
get out of the army doesn't Yeah, they don't let
that money exactly. So now I'm in this like even

(01:20:39):
worse purgatory of like I don't have a diagnosis, but
I can't fly because you're still a diagnosis. Yeah, and
I'm still in the unit. So I am very grateful
that I was in the one sixtieth because my command
was incredible throughout all this, like they were they had
my back, right, and they actually sent me to the
safety course at Rutger of the ash safety course so

(01:21:01):
that I could continue contributing to the unit. So even
though I was implying, I ended up being basically the
company safety officer, which is like It's honestly pretty cool
because you get to like, you get to be pretty autonomous.
And I still got to go on like TDY trips
with the company, so I was actively participating without flying,
which was like a halfway point, I guess. But then

(01:21:23):
this leads to me eventually the flight doc eventually saying,
all right, let's have you talked to the psychologist, you know,
and just see, like see if there's anything there, right,
because we've ruled everything else out, we don't really have
an answer. And after probably two months of talking to her,
she's like, all right, we're gonna get you to the
psychiatrist and we're going to try to treat you for

(01:21:45):
anxiety and kind of see what happens. And at this
point I didn't care because I hadn't know. There was
no consequences at that point. So I do that and
I get on I don't remember the first one, whatever
lexapro or something like that, get on pills, and the
symptoms started to improve, like not dramatically at first, but
enough to be like, okay, like I think there's something here, right,

(01:22:10):
and it didn't. There We went through maybe six different
cocktails and drugs.

Speaker 4 (01:22:16):
Has anybody looked at your medical file to see like
that you had had the ideations before, had anybody.

Speaker 3 (01:22:23):
Nobody even brought that up. Ever. Nobody brought that up ever,
because I was honestly, like kind of scared that they would,
right like, but no nobody ever brought that up, which
I don't know if it's because it was too far
back or what. But so, yeah, so I get to
that point and it's working, and we finally get through
a bunch of different medications because everyone has side effects

(01:22:43):
of course that I hated, and we got to effects
her and literally, I'm not kidding, like ninety five for
some of the symptoms went away like it was like
night and day, and it became it became to the
point where they were still happening, but they were so
situational that I could pinpoint exactly to what was happening
and when they were happening. And once I told the

(01:23:03):
psychologist that like, hey, it's happening when I'm in formation, right,
or it's happening when I have to give a breef,
or it's happening like when I go to church, or
when I'm in like a big stadium. She read the
symptoms of panic disorder and I was like freaking nailed it,
you know, like I didn't want to accept it, right,
but then I did. And I'm not gonna lie as
cheesy as it is, like that's when I started actually

(01:23:24):
healing and getting better. Was when I was like, Okay,
this is it, you know, like, this is actually what's
happening to me. Because I did not want mental health diagnosis.
What was the process of the healing for it? Was
it just the realization or were there other steps that
you started taking with that. Yeah, So, contrary to most
people's opinion, I will say the medication was the thing

(01:23:46):
that gave me the space to heal. I know there's
a lot of like hate on it medication for some reason,
but it did give me the space to heal. Like
so it allowed me to, like I said, like identify
the problem and actually pinpoint what's happening instead of this
it just being like this all day, you know, kind
of crazy anxiety life, I guess.

Speaker 2 (01:24:06):
So, yeah, I tell guys to that and try to
remind them, like, because there is a stigma against prescription
drugs for some good reasons, I agree, some realistic reasons,
and you know the way they affect people and guys
really don't like how it makes them feel.

Speaker 4 (01:24:21):
And also, like I think the like a lot of
like V eight like their reliance on it, that they're
just gonna pump you full of it, and that's gonna
be that's what you do.

Speaker 2 (01:24:31):
But the thing is some some of these guys, some
of these veterans in this case, are hurting so bad
they need those prescription drugs just so they can get
to their VA.

Speaker 3 (01:24:39):
Appointments or whatever else is.

Speaker 2 (01:24:41):
Yeah, and so like I try to frame it for them,
like use it as a stepping stone to get to
the place you want to go, which I.

Speaker 3 (01:24:46):
Think is that's a great That's exactly what I would
say too, is like it, like I said, it gave
me the space, right, it gave me the clarity to
be like, oh shit, okay, like that's what's happening. And
then now I can figure out like what I need
to work on externally so that because now I'm off
the medication and I don't have those dizzy spells.

Speaker 5 (01:25:05):
Right.

Speaker 3 (01:25:05):
So it's one of those things that like it was
necessary at the time and it was helpful at the time,
but I don't see it as a long term like
don't just accept you're going to be on it for
the next time years, right, Like take it if it helps,
you know, and then get yourself out of that situation
by doing other things other than just relying on it.

Speaker 4 (01:25:24):
So when you when that space was created for you
and you could sort of see it, were you getting guidance.

Speaker 3 (01:25:32):
In terms of how to manage it? Did you do
your own research? How did that happen?

Speaker 4 (01:25:36):
Yeah?

Speaker 3 (01:25:36):
So I will attest for and praise my psychologists at
the one sixtieth so regiment has specific psychologists, and she
was phenomenal. Like she very much was the Nobs type
of psychologist that wasn't just trying to you know, like
say I'll just float with the world, right, Like she
was very like a practice Yeah, she was very practical. Yeah,

(01:26:00):
very much like hey, dude, like why did this happen?
How do we avoid this happening in the future, and
how can we like make sure you know, you're you
have the tools so that if it does happen again
or you start to see signs that you can get
yourself out of it.

Speaker 4 (01:26:14):
Right.

Speaker 3 (01:26:14):
So, yeah, she was phenomenal. I know not everybody can
say that about every psychologist out there, but she was.
I will give her like mad props for that. She
was phenomenal through that. So what was that process like
for you? Was like CBT? Yep, A lot of it
was CBT. Actually most of it was CBT. I will

(01:26:35):
say that, like, prior to getting on the meds, we
tried those things and they didn't work. Okay, So that's
where I say like the meds were important because when
you're so deep in it, like if you just go
meditate and think that's going to fix everything, like good luck,
you know, at least in my situation, it was not attack. Yeah,
exactly right. Yeah, And when I tried the breathing exercises,

(01:26:57):
that's what it did. Yeah, Like I would try like
box breathing and all that stuff, right, and everybody's like
I watched YouTube videos, you know, and everybody's like, this
is how you carr anxiety, right, if you're having a
panic attack, just do this, And I would do it,
and I'm like that's bullshit, Like that didn't do anything.
That just made me think about my anxiety more and
be more pissed off. So yeah, I mean, but the

(01:27:19):
irony of that is like now those tools work, Like
now that I'm out of that and now that I'm
off meds, Like, now those tools work because I have
a clear enough.

Speaker 4 (01:27:28):
Mind that I can actually use them, you know. So
so what was that So you take the menage, you
start the CBT, you start these things. What was that
sort of process like for you?

Speaker 3 (01:27:39):
So it was a good it was about a year
actually process from were you still an active the whole time? Yes? Okay,
So I got medically retired in May of twenty twenty three. Okay,
so once I got and I got the panic disorder diagnosis,
I think in May of twenty two, So I think
it was a full almost a full year of me

(01:28:03):
basically trying to get back on my feet and get
figure out what's happening and whether I'm going to get
medically retired or not right, because I was trying to
get back in the cockpit still. But it did get
to the point where she was like, well, really me,
I made the decision to get medically retired. So I

(01:28:23):
got to the point where I was like, these I
need to be on these meds. And I couldn't fly
while I was on the meds. So well, you can,
but it's a pain of the ass. And I was
I was just at the point where I was like
I'm freaking done, Like I've gone, I've put myself through
so much shit, Like I just need to be done
and get out. So that last year was me basically

(01:28:45):
trying getting medically retired. So it was about a year.
But the process to your question was it was a
lot of CBT. It was a lot of It was
a lot of digging into like the why of like
everything kind of which like it's a big not right, yeah, yeah,
like why are you? Like what do you want to

(01:29:08):
do as a dad? What do you want to do?
His husband? Like? It was a lot more like purpose finding,
which was weird because I wasn't expecting that, but yeah,
now that I look back on it, that's kind of
what it was, was like why are you doing all
of this? Why are you doing anything?

Speaker 4 (01:29:19):
You know? And like? And that was good because I
never really stopped to think about that before. You know,
I was just kind of knowing hud real quick. For
people who might not know CBT is cognitive behavioral therapy,
just just throw that out there.

Speaker 3 (01:29:31):
What did you ever tell her about like the ideations
that you had had? Yeah, once I once I got
permanently grounded, So once I had that narclepsy diagnosis. The
gloves were off, I said, skirwt, like I'm I'm telling
her everything, and that also attributes to her actually being
able to diagnose me something and like actually be like okay,

(01:29:52):
like that everything kind of makes sense now that you're
talking about, you know, the irony or One crazy thing though,
is when I like talked about those dizzey spells, nobody
even brought up anxiety being an option, you know, like
it seems kind of we literally did head to toe
tests of everything else and anxiety never came up, and

(01:30:15):
it didn't it wasn't to the point where we ruled
everything out. So that was an interesting thing because I've
talked to multiple people since I've like actually spoken about
this who are like, dude, I've had the same dizzy
spells almost, like, how is this not like a common
knowledge from doctors? You know?

Speaker 4 (01:30:29):
Well, I also think though, that you know, when you
when you talk about panic or anxiety, that unfortunately that
there is a certain image of a person who suffers
from panic or anxiety that comes to mind, and it's
not some guy flying you know, black hawks through a rock.

Speaker 3 (01:30:47):
Yeah. That's a good point.

Speaker 4 (01:30:48):
That's a good point you think of, Yeah, you think
of like some some victim, right, That's not that's scared
to leave the vapors.

Speaker 3 (01:30:55):
It's you know yea. So yeah, And to be honest,
I didn't want it to be sure, you know, like
I wanted it to be like my ears were jacked
up or something.

Speaker 4 (01:31:06):
That way I could justify it because panic or anxiety
that that sounds like weakness. It's not exact, but it sounds.

Speaker 3 (01:31:12):
Like right exactly, yeah, and that's the Yeah, that's one
of those stigmas, right yeah, yeah, good point. And so
what was the next step for you and your family
after being medically retired? So I've I am fortunate that
I had this nerd side to me that always liked
financial stuff. So I like grew up listening to Dave

(01:31:33):
Ramsey and all that stuff, and I just had this like,
I don't know, it's one of those guys that just
like that would be my podcast that I listened to,
you know, we're like personal finance stuff. So when I
found out I was getting medically retires, is about it.
I had about a year actual runway before I got out,
which was a blessing. That's when I was like, all right,
I'm going to go be a financial planner, and I
started doing all my coursework and getting all my certifications,

(01:31:57):
so that literally when I got out of the Army,
I had my certify Financial Planner exam done and I
was just ready to kind of hit the ground running,
and I networked my way through LinkedIn, so people transitioning
out there. One of the best things that I ever
did was actually like reach out to people on LinkedIn,
which went against everything I believed as a soft guy, right,

(01:32:19):
no social media, but I got the balls to like
actually message people that were on LinkedIn doing what I
wanted to do, and we were looking at Charlotte. Yeah,
and fortunately one of the guys that I messaged was like, Hey,
I started a firm and we need advisors. Do you
want to come work for us? And I was like, hell, yeah,
that's amazing. So right off the bat, I was able

(01:32:41):
to land a job in Charlotte and kind of it
wasn't like a salary job though, so it was he
would chill. It was what you kill. Yeah. It was
basically like you start with nothing, you know, have clients,
so you got to build it. It was kind of
big with when you've got a family. Yeah, Luckily I
did have like the military benefits. They weren't like full paycheck, right,
they wouldn't like cover all my expenses, but I did

(01:33:04):
have like the disability paycheck and stuff like that to
kind of bridge the gap. And then some savings built up.
But yeah, and then after about a year working for
that firm, I met another guy in Charlotte who was
starting his own firm and he said, Hey, do you
want to come partner with me at this firm?

Speaker 4 (01:33:23):
And that's where I am now, and it's called Kaiden's
Wealth Partners And what for anybody who needs a financial
advisor in Northline. We're Charlotte, but we were virtual now
virtual like anybody anywhere.

Speaker 3 (01:33:38):
What's the name again, Kayden's Wealth Partners, Caden's Wealth Partners. Yeah,
and it's cool because I I work with veterans, Like
that's my like niche Like I just love it, you know,
Like I tried to go like the ultra high networth
and all the cliche advisor you know routes, and then
most of my most of the people that were coming
to me were from my network, like naturally right first,

(01:34:00):
and I was like I love this, Like I love
working with them, you know. So so yeah, that's what
I'm niched in too. It's fun. And how did this
book project come about? Stigma, which is going to be
out in October twenty First, good question. So when I
was getting out, I none of my peers knew why

(01:34:22):
I was getting out. They all I stuck with the
narcolepsi diagnosis the entire time because that was the easy button, right,
that was the non stigma button, right of like grounded
for it, and I was grounded for it, right, So
I did get diagnosed with it, you know, and that's
what I felt. I was like, Okay, like I can
tell people this because that doesn't mean there's something wrong

(01:34:42):
with my head. Right, So all of that happened to me,
all of these freaking five plus years of just grunting
it out right and dealing with this and suffering through that.
Once I finally got out and told I think I
told my brother about it first and he was still
in and he started crying and he was like, and

(01:35:04):
he's not like he's a tough dude, you know, like
he could kick my ass, to be honest, and he's
my little brother. So that's saying a lot for me
to admit that, but he started crying and I was
like the hell, you know, and he's like, dude, why
didn't you tell me? You know? I'm like I couldn't. Man,
how am I Like? I couldn't tell anybody? Right? He's
like that's a problem, and I'm like, yeah, it is, dude,

(01:35:25):
I know, but I just didn't feel like I could so,
like I couldn't even tell my own brother, you know
who I'm like closest with more than anybody in the world.
I was like, this is this is a cultural problem
that like needs to be talked about. So that's kind
of where I was like, screwt, I'm gonna talk about
it and I'm gonna just lay it all out there

(01:35:45):
and see what happens. Like it was terrifying initially the
first time I talked about it. I was like, dude,
I have no idea how people are going to react
to this, you know, like, yeah, because those stigmas were
still there, Like is my reputation going to be gone
if I mentioned this? You know? But the surprisingly, man,
it's been the opposite, and I, yeah.

Speaker 4 (01:36:04):
It's so weird to isn't, Because like the civilian world
has gotten to a point I think where talking about
whether it's panic or anxiety or whatever, you're talking whatever
things you have going on with your strength, like they're
almost badges of honor. And then we're civilian conversations now
right where with the military or veterans and stuff like that,

(01:36:26):
or maybe men in general.

Speaker 3 (01:36:28):
I don't know, Yeah, but it's still a very like yeah,
because it's like, I don't know, I feel like it's
like you feel like you're exposing weakness, you know what
I mean, even though you're not. Like to be honest,
the most courageous thing I did was talk about it. Yeah,
as ironic as that is, you know, and as scary
as it was, Like it it took balls to speak

(01:36:51):
up about it, and like it's been super rewarding, Yeah,
and my hope is that more people will come to
that realization, you know that like dude, I was a
zombie for six years of my life, you know, like
I was not a present dad or husband, Like yeah,
just sucks, you know. And so what's the book going
to be about. It's your story, so it's it's going

(01:37:12):
to be my story, but it's also going to be
deconstructing some of those stigmas and saying showing why they're why.
Some of them do have validity, right, because there are,
at least in my situation as a pilot, there were
repercussions for going on medication or doing that right, So
there are some that have validity. But the primary objective

(01:37:33):
with it is one to deconstruct the stigma and then
two to show people that you can be a freaking
stud and deal with this stuff and it's okay, right,
it doesn't make you like less of a man or
anything like that. So those are the big objectives, and
then hopefully my my big overaarching mission is too and

(01:37:54):
this is a really big mission, but to ultimately lower
the suicide rate because like you've loved, I'm sure you
guys have both lost friends to it, and I have
two and they were studs, the people that I can
think of literally off the top of my head, and
I know they were dealing with some of this, and
I know they were dealing with just the fear of

(01:38:14):
what if I expose this right, And they got to
the point where it was like it was easier for
them to do it then to tell somebody about it,
you know, which sucks, but yeah, that's the reality. So
that's my overall like million you know mile mission is
to go lower those stats.

Speaker 4 (01:38:31):
And so when is Stigma going to be out again?
October twenty first, So please if you are listening to this,
you know, there's not a there's not a pre order
link out yet or not yet. So if you are
listening to this, please put that in your phone as
a reminder. October twenty first, Uh, for stigma.

Speaker 3 (01:38:49):
You know, you get this.

Speaker 4 (01:38:51):
Yeah, these are things that you know, and even if
it's not something for you, if it gives you awareness
and you don't even have to be a veteran or
no veterans, this is these are these are issues and
and it'll give you, you know, a place to start,
whether for yourself or for somebody who you know.

Speaker 3 (01:39:10):
Yeah, thanks, Yeah, I mean it's it's something that should
just be talked about, you know, absolutely and not be
like dude, you're a pussy for a saying that.

Speaker 4 (01:39:19):
Absolutely. I just think that's dumb and that's literally killing
people exactly. It pisses me. Yeah, well, you know, and
it's unfortunate because ever since Vietnam, you know, every portrayal
of military post traumatic stress or military mental health has
been post traumatic stress of you know, uh, somebody having
flashbacks or whether it's the punishment, like it's it's always

(01:39:41):
this really horrible uh representation of what veteranent mental health
looks like.

Speaker 3 (01:39:48):
Yeah, no that's true. I mean even in my situation,
I got diagnosed with anxiety, PTSD, depression, and panic disorder,
Like they just lumped it all together because they're like,
I don't know what to do with this guy. Yeah,
you know, so it's like, yeah, it's too your point, right,
Like everybody just thinks PTSD, but there's so much more.

Speaker 4 (01:40:03):
And even though the even PTSD is not represented in
modern culture the way it actually really is. Yeah, exactly,
you know, like we're a danger to everybody around us. No,
you're just a danger to yourself, right for sure. So yeah,
so Stigma October twenty first will be released like on
Amazon and all the it'll be everywhere, okay, everywhere you

(01:40:24):
can buy a book.

Speaker 3 (01:40:26):
Yeah. Is there anything that we've left out or anything
that where people find you? So? Good? Good point? Uh.
The Nico Kelly dot com is my website.

Speaker 4 (01:40:36):
I got Instagram and YouTube links on there too, so
I've got a YouTube channel where I'm talking about this stuff.

Speaker 3 (01:40:41):
And then I do want to do a nonprofit plug
if you guys are cool, sure, absolutely so. A former
one sixtieth pilot started a nonprofit in Nashville called the
ARC Health Foundation, and I'm on the board of it.
And essentially the the goal of it is to get
around these stigmas while they still exist. So it's a
human performance optimization center geared towards brain health, right, so,

(01:41:06):
geared towards non medicinal ways to treat mental health. So
I think, like all those modalities that like Andrew Huberman
talks about, that's what it's focused on. It's going to
be absolutely free to veterans and active duty So it's
our health Foundation A good question, yeah, r K Health Foundation. Yeah.
So it's going to be a completely stigma free place, right,

(01:41:30):
Like somebody can just show up there and say, hey,
like I want to go do this modality, right, and
they don't have to say like because I'm depressed or
because I'm dealing with this, right, it can just be like, hey,
I want to get better at this or whatever, you know.
So it's taking all that brain science and brain health
that Hebreman's been spearheading and really putting the awareness out

(01:41:50):
and putting them all together in one facility for active
duty and veterans, right, it'll be really cool. Yeah, it's
still in the startup phase, so we don't have the facilities.
We need three hundred k four facilities to actually be
fully funded, and the first one is going to be
rolled out at Fort Campbell's. So yeah, that's awesome, pumped
about it.

Speaker 4 (01:42:07):
And so should we start the gofund me for you
guys or yeah, so from are more affluent viewers and
listeners or kelth is like over three hundred k of
endownmas right or whatever they call it.

Speaker 3 (01:42:21):
Donations, donations, thank you text deductible donating exactly right, Nicky,
Nico Kelly. Great, and my all my handles are at
the y and they're all they're all in the description. Yes,
so thank you Nick for sharing your story with us. Yeah.

(01:42:41):
I know some of these stories aren't pleasant to like
kind of relive, but for the reasons you're well aware if.

Speaker 2 (01:42:46):
It's important to get that stuff out there too. God
only knows who's watching these things. I mean, all types
of people watch it. People who I hear.

Speaker 3 (01:42:54):
From them sometimes were like and this podcast got me
through like a hard time in my life. It's like
I never thought that people engage with it in that way.
But I'm glad if it helps somebody. I hope so too.
You know, all this message gets out there to folks,
so yeah, thank you again, and we'll make an announcement
on the show.

Speaker 2 (01:43:11):
When the book comes out also let folks know and
for everyone else, we'll see you guys next week.

Speaker 3 (01:43:17):
Take care out there, and if you are not a
member of our patreon.

Speaker 4 (01:43:20):
You might want to join to hear this really salacious
story about how he met his wife.

Speaker 3 (01:43:25):
It's spicy, spicy. Hey, guys, it's Jack. I just want
to talk to you for a moment about how you
can support the show. If you've been watching it enjoying it,
but you'd like to get a little bit more involved
and help us continue to do this, you can check
out our patreon. It is patreon dot com slash the Teamhouse,

(01:43:45):
and for five dollars a month, you can get access
to all of these episodes of The Teamhouse ad free.
The same goes with our affiliated podcast Eyes On with
Andy Milburn, Jason Lyons mcmulroy that one you will also
get all of those episodes add free, and you support
the channel and the show, and we really appreciate it.

(01:44:06):
The Patreon members are literally what has helped this company,
this small business, survive, especially during our early years, and
you are what continues to help this thing going even
as we navigate the turbulent world of YouTube advertising. So
we really appreciate all of you guys. There's going to
be a link down in the description to that Patreon.

Speaker 2 (01:44:29):
Page, and there is also going to be a link
to our new merch shop, so if you guys want
to go and get some Team House merchandise, we got
stickers and we also have patches, and I should mention
if you sign up for Patreon at ten dollars a month,
we will mail you this patch as well, so we
really appreciate that.

Speaker 3 (01:44:49):
But they're also for sale on the merch shop. And additionally,
they got t shirts.

Speaker 2 (01:44:54):
Up there, water bottles, a tote bag, coffee mugs, all
that good stuff, so please go and check them out
and support the show.

Speaker 3 (01:45:03):
We really appreciate it, guys. Thank you.

All Episodes

From Special Forces to the 160th SOAR | Nick O'Kelly | Ep. 362

Episode Transcript

Popular Podcasts

Las Culturistas with Matt Rogers and Bowen Yang

The Joe Rogan Experience

Stuff You Should Know

.css-15opob5{left:0;position:absolute;top:0.8rem;} All Episodes

.css-14f5ked{margin:0;word-break:break-word;display:-webkit-box;-webkit-box-orient:vertical;box-orient:vertical;-webkit-line-clamp:2;overflow:hidden;}From Special Forces to the 160th SOAR | Nick O'Kelly | Ep. 362