WTF is Going Down in Ukraine? w/ Oz Katerji | EYES ON GEOPOLITICS - The Team House

Episode Transcript
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Speaker 1 (00:01):
I'm sorry.

Speaker 2 (00:11):
Hey, everybody, Welcome to another episode of IZ on Geopolitics.
I got a special guest today, Oz Kadgy, a Ukraine
correspondent based in Kiev. He's got a lot cooking documentary
called Battle for Kiev that's available on like all on
demand channels, Apple, Google, Amazon, Here's a podcast called This

(00:32):
Is Not a Drill. And he's the hostless The Okay Show.
So he's a busy man and he's based in Kiev.
I wanted to have you on, Oz, and thank you
for being here. I wanted to have you on because
of what went down earlier this week with the the
vote to UH you know, basically disband the UH, the

(00:53):
anti corruption agencies that were supposedly independent in Ukraine. Big uproar.
There was protests in the street, one hundreds or thousands
of people. You were on the street too. I saw
a couple of videos. Great, you're a great winter follower
to follow, so people check it out if you want
to know what's what in Ukraine. Yeah, give us a rundowck.

(01:14):
Because since we spoke, like I asked you to be on,
there's been a bit of change to you know, Zelenski
came back and it's proposing a new bill. You know,
so there's a lot going on. So if you give
us the rundown on that, that'd be great.

Speaker 1 (01:26):
Sure. Well, I mean, look, I will say one thing.
It wasn't so much that they were disbanding these two
anti corruption bodies. It was that they were basically stripping
the independence away and giving that to the Prosecutor General
of Ukraine, who is appointed by Zelensky. So it would
be effectively taking their independence away. And you know that

(01:49):
there were justifications given by Zelensky that there there was
Russian interference in parts of it, and that you know,
some of the prosecution were languishing and never actually going anywhere,
and so on and so forth. They gave a bunch
of reasons. In either case, those reasons didn't wash with

(02:10):
the Ukrainian citizens, who saw it as an overreach by
Zelenski's wartime government. And you know, it was a viral
protest that like, as soon as the bill was pushed
through Parliament, some Ukrainian soldiers who are currently serving started
tweeting about it and said, let's meet outside the President's

(02:31):
office or the closest place you can get to the
President's office, which is outside of a theater, which is
you know, about one hundred and fifty meters away or so,
and there's a square there. So people started gathering there.
It was completely like spur of the moment, viral thing.
And the first day, you know, i'd say more than
a thousand people turned up, maybe about fifteen hundred or so.

(02:55):
It's quite a small square, so lots of people in there.
You know, it starts to feel like, you know, a
big protest, and you know, the government responded by you know,
signing you know, Zelensky hadn't signed the bill. He signed
the bill. He released a statement saying, I acknowledge your concerns,
et et cetera. That didn't go far enough. There was

(03:18):
another day of protest. It wasn't just in Kiev, it
was around the place. And I have to say I
was on the ground at these protests, and I saw
some people, you know, completely misconstruing what was happening. There
were Marjorie Taylor Green, for example, she tweeted that this
was an anti war protest and that the people were
sick of Zelensky. And look, I was on the ground.

(03:39):
I spoke to people absolutely not. They were singing the
Ukrainian national anthem. They were singing, you know, patriotic Ukrainian slogans.
They were very much you know, there were veterans soldiers
there and they weren't anti war veterans. They were you know,
going back to the front line and support the government
when it comes to defending the country. What they don't

(04:02):
support is the government overreaching and you know taking the
independence away from these anti corruption bodies. And that's something
that's very important for Europe. You know, Ukraine wants to
integrate with the EU, and the EU has all of
these laws that you know, Ukraine has to be in
sync with around corruption that you know, the old Soviet

(04:25):
Ukrainian system was full of corruption. So getting from that
to a you know, liberal European kind of politics is
hasn't been a straight line for Ukraine, and the Ukrainian
people do feel quite strongly about it. And Zelensky was
like he ran on a campaign of being anti corruption,

(04:48):
you know, a difference. He was a populist kind of
you know, comedian. You know, he was offering something different
and he was offering a dubvishness towards Russia. It wasn't
you know, let's continue, let let's try and make make
a kind of an agreement with Russia. So for Zelensky
to become this wartime leader. A lot of the American

(05:09):
right don't tend to understand that this is a genuine thing.
He's not. He's not massively unpopular here, you know. But
as soon as he overreached the people, people that have
been supporting him right up till this point decided to
go out and protest. And following that second day of protest,
Zelensky seemed to back down, and he seemed to offer

(05:31):
a new build to Parliament to to try and you know,
re establish that that independence. So it looks like the
protesters have scored a victory basically, and that Zelensky has
backed down to public concerns, public protests. That to me
is a sign of a healthy democracy. You know, he

(05:53):
did something unpopular that people said, hey, this is unpopular,
and then he goes, okay, I hear you. I mean,
we let's wait to see. I don't want to defend
this policy unless you know, there could be more protests.
At the moment as we're recording, it looks like this
new bill is at least going to get scrutinized before
the people react again. In either case, so far, so good.

(06:16):
I mean, I have to say as well, the protest
was completely peaceful. There was some police around, but they
were absolutely not you know, they weren't surrounding the crowd,
they weren't doing anything to the crowd, and that the
crowd weren't anti, antagonistic or hostile to the police that
were there in any way, shape or form. This was

(06:37):
a completely you know, and it was about a narrow
political issue, a domestic political issue. It had no political
connection to the to the war whatsoever. So and you know,
it looks to have been as we're recording, it looks
there's some sort of compromise that that that has probably settled,
but will remain to be seen. And again sometimes you

(07:01):
get the accusation as a foreign journalist that you know,
again not not by Ukrainians, but by some people who
are who consider themselves anti war when it comes to
this situation. That's not a term I would use. But
let's just say play devil's advocate, and that I get
sometimes accused of, you know, just parroting a government line.

(07:22):
And you know, the proof is as soon as the
first the first protest I've seen since the war began,
and I've been here since the war began, the first
protests I've seen. I was there both both days of it,
you know, on the ground filming it. So you know,
we we reporters are doing our jobs here and again,
if you want to really judge the situation, judge it

(07:44):
as it is a narrow political situation that was unpopular
by the government. People came out in the streets hundreds
at first, ten thousands, not tens of thousands, but you know,
you know, it was quick. It was young people mobilizing
in the capital in wartime situations under martial law, so
this was wasn't a small deal. But Zelenski responded so far,

(08:10):
and he also thanked the protesters for i think what
he called their dignity, for the way they dig the
dignity of their protests. So again, you know, this is
kind of this is what you want to help a
government to respond to popular criticism if it's something that

(08:31):
you know that that that is unpopular for for good reason.
You know, people want independence in their anti corruption bodies.
So look, it remains to be seen what's going to
happen over the next few days and weeks. I think
one thing this has definitely proved is this government is
still in power at the will of the people. If

(08:53):
the people didn't want Zelenski, they would make they would
make it very clear. Yeah, I think I think that's
been demonstrated perfectly clear. But of that again, you're gonna
don't not take my word for it, take the word
of the Ukrainian people who just did this. If you're
going to make claims like you're you know, I'm doing
this because I don't want to see Ukrainians fight to

(09:15):
the last Ukrainian whatever, you're not speaking for them. You're
not speaking for those people that mobilized on the streets.
They were veterans, they were soldiers, they were patriots, they
were going to fight Russia. They hate Russia. You know,
there were very there were lots of anti Russia things
said at the protest. This is you know, So if
you think that you're using this situation to try and

(09:38):
make a point about the conflict, you're just factually wrong.
And the least you should want to be when talking
about something is at least factually correct. So factually, the
Ukrainian people weren't protesting any kind of anti war sentiment
at this protest.

Speaker 2 (09:55):
Yeah, and I mean, like anything Marjorie Taylor Green says
should be taken with a grain of salt. I think
I don't think she said anything factual.

Speaker 1 (10:03):
Like there were some other bloggers and podcasters and stuff
on Twitter saying that. And you know, look, look, I
don't normally reach out to the American right. It's not
so you know, I'm very open about being a liberal,
you know. So I'm coming at this from understanding that

(10:24):
we are in a different place at the moment politically
with the leader of the United States of America. Yeah,
and that simply, you know, not having a dialogue with
people that have influence in these spaces is not necessarily
prudent to advancing policy ideas on Ukraine. And there is

(10:47):
a big movement in the Donald Trump base that is
against providing Ukraine with support. And the Ukrainian community in
America have had significant success when they've lobbied, you know,
like they lobbied Mike Johnson. They brought some evangelicals that
had been that had been you know, under Russian occupation.

(11:09):
Mike Johnson heard their their stories and then he changed
his position on the Ukraine aid vote. So having those
those conversations with people you might be fundamentally uh, you know,
fundamentally opposed to on many many issues, but you still
need that kind of support in the seats of government

(11:33):
to you know, provide aid that Ukraine needs to defend
itself and the Europeans. In Zelenski has had more success
recently after that famous blew up in the in the
Oval Office in basically saying to the Trump administration appealing
to his businessman nature, saying, look, we will buy the weapons.

(11:54):
Europe will buy the weapons, all of them, and you'll
get paid, you know, and it'll be a good deal
for a America, be a good deal for Europe. That
works in convincing Donald Trump into thinking, Okay, fine, it's
a business transaction. Fine, you know. So, yeah, you know,
it's a it's a difficult one. But you know, I'm

(12:16):
in a position here as a reporter on the ground,
so I'm in I'm in a privileged position to be
able to give you facts that I can see with
my own eyes and verify by speaking to people, right,
And whether or not you trust my integrity to do
that is literally that's your prerogative, guys. But but I
take my job seriously and I and I show I demonstrate,

(12:37):
you know, any bit of evidence in my work. I've
done that my entire career, you can go back all
the way. So because of that, I feel like it's
there's a duty to to correct the record and state
what's happening here on the ground, because again, it's not
just the American right. That's not really Mike sp sperience

(13:00):
in politics. My experience is more British politics and dealing
with the British left who are very opposed to parts
of it are military aid to Ukraine. So I've had
these battles with people that I, you know, fundamentally disagree with.
But listen, those people in the UK don't have any

(13:22):
power whereas in the United States. These people are wielding
significant influence when it comes to being able to provide
military aid to Ukraine. And I think it's important for
the future of Europe. I think it's important for people
that believe in democracy that Ukraine has supported throughout this war.

(13:44):
So that's what I'm going to continue to do. I'm
going to continue to report the truth objectively and use
my platform to tell people that I've concluded from everything
that I've seen that Ukraine needs to be supported. And
again maybe maybe some people will say, well, as a reporter,
you're just supposed to be unbiased about everything, and I'm

(14:06):
you know, the World War II reporters who were deployed
with the Allies certainly weren't unbiased about you know, Nazi Germany,
and I you know, Russia is a expansionist, ravoncist fascist
dictatorship with no press, freedom, no freedom of speech, no, no,
none of those things that the Americans are supposed to

(14:27):
care about. Right from Ukraine, it is different.

Speaker 2 (14:30):
Imagine like there were protests that broke out in Moscow,
Like what would happen there to them?

Speaker 1 (14:35):
All those people would be arrested?

Speaker 2 (14:37):
Correct, yeah, exactly. So, you know, people in Ukraine exercising
their democratic right to protest something that they don't like
about internal Ukrainian politics. We should kind of champion that,
and and the administration there's a Lenskian administration actually like
hearing them and at least taking the steps.

Speaker 1 (14:56):
To no state repression. No no, you know that the
state could have responded saying it's marshal law, you're not
allowed to protest, go home and push people off the streets.

Speaker 2 (15:04):
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Speaker 1 (16:21):
Yeah, right, they were within their legal rights under martial
law to do that. I'm not saying they should have
done I completely would never have supported that, But I'm
saying they didn't do that. Even though they could have
done that legally speaking, and they could have argued that
it was legal, they knew it was morally incorrect, and

(16:42):
they did the morally correct and you know, responsible democratic
thing to do, which is to allow freedom of assembly.
You know, that's a fundamental right that the Ukrainians fought for.
They've had several you know, revolutions and and huge protest
movements over the course of their history calling for independence

(17:05):
and freedom of you know, liberty and freedom of speech
and freedom of assembly. These are Ukrainian values. It's not
they're they're not you know, Western values that we're pushing
onto the Ukrainian people. These are what Ukrainian people are
fighting for, and the least we can do is listen
to them, Listen to what they're actually saying, rather than
talking over them about what you think they should give

(17:29):
up in order to make the world seem like a
more stable place. You know, you're not in their shoes,
you're not in their position, You're not you're not being
asked to give up anything they are. So the least
you could do is sit down and have a conversation
with Ukrainians. And I think I think there are loads
of advocates for I mean, look that the Klichko brothers

(17:50):
so entirely Klitchko is the mayor of Kiev. I would
love to see the Klichko brothers going on Joe Rogan
and and you know, and and reaching out to parts
of the the kind of online digital ecosystem that really
has has had it in for Ukraine for many years.

(18:10):
And I, you know, I don't understand. I just don't
understand it other than it's something that also liberals seem
to support. So you know, it just doesn't make sense
to me. Why why there's this there's this kind of
poisoning of the idea of being supportive of Ukraine is
a bad thing, but it's something I feel like we
have a duty to try and at least confront, you know,

(18:33):
talk about discuss you know, I think these things are
relatively important to do.

Speaker 2 (18:38):
So, you know, it is kind of interesting to me,
like how why either of the Klitchkoll brothers haven't been
on Rogan. You know, Rogan's a fight guy fighting and
it would be an incredible opportunity, to be honest, for
them to get on there and like give their they
can give their on ground truth or what's going on

(18:58):
on the ground, and they've been there here.

Speaker 1 (19:00):
Listen any any one of any any podcaster that listen,
that's listening in that that wants to you know, you
have a significant audience. You want to come over here.
You're part of the American right. You will find other
conservatives here Ukrainians that will take you around right that
that will show you their story, their truth, you know,

(19:24):
as as people that share philosophies and and and and
you know, beliefs. I don't know why people aren't aren't
doing it, you know, like, uh, you know.

Speaker 2 (19:38):
What, I don't think. I think they have a narrative
and they want to they want to keep it going. Unfortunately,
especially like the podcast.

Speaker 1 (19:47):
Where like I mean, Ben Shapiro came over here and
and he he came back and he said all of
this stuff, and you know that's that's Ben Shapiro saying
it again again someone I have nothing in common with
at all. I share no beliefs with this guy. But
at the end of the day he came and spoke
to Ukrainians and came back and said, listen, this is

(20:09):
this is what what I observed by being there, and
this isn't North Korea. You can walk around without a minder.
You know, there's no one holding your hand. There's no
police violence on the street. When there was a protest,
there's no repress. There was like when I say there
were cops there, I don't mean that there was a
wall of cops. I mean like there was like three

(20:29):
cops there. There were like five cars there. They were
just like and there was they were just like you know, mingling.
They weren't right at all, you know, they were like
public safety there. That that that's that's the very most.

Speaker 2 (20:49):
It's an interesting juxtaposition with like protests that happened in America.

Speaker 1 (20:52):
You don't get that in America. In America, you don't
get that. Right, the heart of the free world supposedly. Yeah,
you know, you can't just strike up a protest right
outside the White House.

Speaker 2 (21:04):
No, I mean, but like, there's gonna be an absolute
show of force.

Speaker 1 (21:10):
There's going to be a wall of you know. So
I'm not saying I don't understand that. I'm not saying that, sure,
but but but there is what I think it really demonstrates, right,
is that there is a public buy in between the
people and the authorities. As this war is going on,
they understand they are all doing they're all pulling in

(21:31):
the same direction. That's not the case currently in America,
you guys are completely polarized down the middle. Ukraine is
not polarized when it comes to the war. Sure, it's
just not.

Speaker 2 (21:42):
I think about it, right, they're actually fighting for freedom,
right that everybody in America especially hear that all the time. Freedom.
We love freedom. So it's interesting you would think that
it would be a lot easier and it wouldn't have
to be this like tug of war for people to
be on side of Ukraine giving them support, and you

(22:02):
would think it would just be a lot easier man like,
And I don't understand it.

Speaker 1 (22:07):
Well, Listen, the other argument comes from the idea that
America started this conflict by pushing NATO in Eastern Europe.
And look, this conflict started in twenty fourteen when the
Ukrainians overthrew a leader that was yes, democratically elected, but
they wanted to join the European Union. It wasn't about NATO.

(22:29):
NATO wasn't even in the discussion. The Ukrainians weren't there
were most most Ukrainians had no interest in joining NATO.
Right in twenty fourteen, they again there was an unpopular
decision by the Yanukovich government, who was pro Russia, who
was like, no, we're going to tear up this EU agreement.

(22:49):
We're going to go, We're gonna stay with Russia. The
people took to the streets. The state shot those people.
They shot a hundred people dead in the street. Right,
And following that Yanukovich was overthrown. He ran out the country.
They held democratic elections immediately afterwards, right, It wasn't like,

(23:12):
you know, a military coup and they imposed the dictator.
There was a democratically elected election straight afterwards, and then
there was another democratic election years later. Zelensky came in, right,
but this was about the European Union. It was about
joining the European Union. It wasn't about NATO. After that,
after Russia invaded annexed Crimea, invaded Donetsk and Luhansk, you know,

(23:38):
claiming that these were Russian lands, and you know, they started,
this started in twenty fourteen, and the Ukrainians, you know,
the elected Zelenski saying, look, okay, fine, we'll we'll come
to some kind of agreement about this. Let's just not
fight anymore. Right, That's the who Zelensky was, and he
became a wartime leader because even that Dubvish attitude towards

(24:02):
Russia just meant them. You know. Their attitude is Ukraine
doesn't exist as a nation state. It's just part of Russia,
and that anyone perpetuating the idea that Ukraine has an
identity outside of Little Russia is a Nazi. Basically, if
you are if you are liberal, pro European, you're a

(24:25):
Nazi in the isaac Russian because in their head, being
anti Russian is to be Nazi because Russians defeated the Nazis.
It's just mindless, moronic fascism to the most basic degree.
You know, Ukrainians don't want to be part of a dictatorship.

(24:47):
They don't want to live in Russia. They want to
live in Ukraine. They made that clear in nineteen ninety one.
They've made it clear many times. They made it clear
in twenty fourteen. And you know again, I can only
I can only recommend that that that people come out
here and talk to these people themselves. Marjorie Taylor Green,
come out here yourself, Come out and go go meet

(25:10):
some Christian groups and and and go tell them how
you feel and see what they say to you. Just
do it. You know, if you're so you know, big
and brave, well.

Speaker 2 (25:21):
Especially if you're so outspoken about it, right like and
you're per like I've said this before on the podcast,
like this we have we have four hundred and thirty five,
five hundred and thirty five people that run partumably run
the entire United States. You got to take that job seriously.
And if you have an outspoken opinion, go and actually.

Speaker 1 (25:40):
Do and you have to be fair. Loads of them
have loads of Republicans and loads of Democrats. Have that
bipartisan consensus in Congress exists because those people know, you
know something about what's going on in Ukraine. The people
that haven't have been here are the ones who are
the most interested in voting against Ukraine AID.

Speaker 3 (26:00):
Right.

Speaker 1 (26:00):
It's like the only way you can shut your mind
off to this is by not not you know, looking
at the problem and and embracing it. And that's what
a lot of people do with lots of conflicts around
the world. You know, I can name a handful that
that people just if you don't want to learn what's
going on, it's much easier to have a biased, you know,
perspective on on on on what's actually taking place.

Speaker 2 (26:24):
Right, and just be fed the misinformation that's getting put
out put out there and run with it back. Well,
I got one question about the bill that passed. The
law that passed about getting rid of the independence of
these these agencies. It was pretty uh popular within the parliament, right,
and and I did see that the thought process behind

(26:46):
doing that was because Russia had influence over these agencies somehow.
Is that true? Is there anything there?

Speaker 1 (26:52):
Yeah? I mean, look that that's that I haven't looked
at all of the evidence that that they have on
all of the you know, I couldn't tell you in
minute detail what those things are. I can tell you
that that Ukrainian press outlets independent Ukrainian press outlets did
not agree with the government's perception of and the public

(27:17):
didn't agree with that. But look, when the parliament passes
things that Zelensky wield significant authority. The government wants to
do this, it's a wartime government. They say, the Russians
are involved, we're going to pass this. The parliament just
passes it. Again, there's not a lot of you know,

(27:38):
there is definitely less democratic scrutiny of Zelensky's government during
war then there would be drawing peace. And that is
like on a basic level, like completely understandable, sure, but
like you know, that has implications, it has you know,

(28:00):
this is the reality of the ground. But none of
you have lived if you're not, if you're not here
or in a country that has experienced something similar. It's
hard to think of a few countries that have faced
an invasion like this. If you haven't lived in a
country under invasion, you don't understand what it's like. You know, again,

(28:22):
those things that you take for granted, those freedoms that
you take for granted, are under threat here, not because
the government wants to put them under threat. It's you know,
people saying we are willing to let go of certain
freedoms right now because we understand that we are under
attack and we need to pull together to and there

(28:43):
is a complete buy in from all walks of society.
This isn't the government forcing this on Ukrainians. So there's
just no other way to explain it to people without
without saying as simple as it is, you know, this
government will z Lensky's government will fall if if he
does something unpopular and the people get tired of him.

(29:06):
There's no doubt, you know. And one of the things
that he could do that would make him fall is
sign an agreement with Russia that gives away but basically
the order of this territory. I could tell you if
he signed that agreement, he would be overthrown tomorrow. So, like,
you know, like the it's just so far removed from reality.
The kind of argument that I've had with people in

(29:29):
recent days that it defies belief. It's like they almost
believe literally the opposite of the thing that's true. So
when it's a situation like that, it's like, what what
can I say? You know, it's right, you know, cam
trails aren't real. You know, that's just the jet fuel
can't melt steel beams.

Speaker 4 (29:47):
I mean you like it's you know that's yeah, you're right,
I mean it's and I understand the reasoning behind like
having the government be a little bit more lean and
mean where it can make decisions faster.

Speaker 2 (30:02):
Uh, when you're in a war and being invaded, Uh,
I can't really have like a you know, a one
month floor fight over something that's like integral to like
defense or something like that. Do you think, like you mentioned,
like if you were to give away territory, like let's
say they were to be able to freeze the lines
and have a ceasefire, which I mean, Russia is a

(30:22):
fucking joke, Like you can't trust the thing they fucking say.

Speaker 1 (30:26):
That's the that's the critical point, right, That's the reason
why there isn't going to be any kind of trade
of territory because even if there was, the Ukrainians don't
trust that the Russians won't invade again. Yeah.

Speaker 2 (30:40):
So even if they did freeze the lines and there
was some kind of security guarantee, you know, everything that
you know could happen as good as possible could happen. Uh,
you think the Ukrainian like people would be pissed about
that and like to the point where to the point
where they try and get lens.

Speaker 1 (31:01):
If there was like some kind of ceasefire and no
official recognition of the land, like the Ukrainians will always
consider that Ukrainian. So that there would you know, the
government wouldn't survive saying these lands are Russian. Would it
survive saying we're not gonna we're not going to shoot

(31:21):
in these territories for you know, X amount of time
or indefinitely. There is a substantial amount of the population
that would be amenable to that because look, it's don't
want to be bombed every single day, right, That doesn't
mean that they're conceding that that land is Russian. And

(31:42):
again that this isn't about land, it's about people. The
people on in those places are Ukrainian, and Ukraine isn't
willing to give up its people. You know, it's not
willing to give up you know, the second most populous
city in Ukraine to Russia. Like that, that's saying, what
are you talking about, Like you just you're giving up

(32:04):
New York to write or La to Mexico or like yeah,
by force, Like it would never it would never wash
anywhere in the world. But some people think that Ukrainians
should be expected to you know, handover you know, Kharkiv

(32:25):
and handover Kelson.

Speaker 2 (32:28):
Yeah, it's wild because like I you know, I try
to tell people who are like, yeah, we shouldn't be
giving support to Ukraine at all. I'm like, imagine somebody
invaded and took a bunch of land or was like
bombing you every day. What would you do? How would
you feel? You know, in America where it's like you know,
freedom and I need my guns and all that stuff.

Speaker 1 (32:50):
We all know how what they would do. We all
know what they would do, Like there's no doubt, there's
no doubt. And like some of the Ukrainians have had
have had significant public international backlash because some people fighting
on the Ukrainian side are like out and out fascist
neo Nazis. Right, some people are a small amount of

(33:11):
them are, But I mean America has loads of fascist
neo Nazis.

Speaker 2 (33:16):
You've got any country and they gana.

Speaker 1 (33:19):
But again, those fascist neo Nazis would would be on
the front lines fighting if America was was in a war,
and you wouldn't go Basically all of America can go
to the dogs because you've got like the proud boys
of holding you know, part of the front line in
I don't know, Virginia. Like it, like it, just it

(33:40):
defies belief, and it's like, yes, these people do exist
within Ukrainian society. They're not popular, they're not like you know, beloved,
and they're not winning elections. They're not governing the country.
You know, far right candidates in Europe are far more
likely to get elected than they are in in Ukraine.

(34:01):
But Ukrainians are judged for a much smaller far right
situation than do.

Speaker 2 (34:07):
You remember the time and like Azov was battle and
Mariopol right and they were holding uh, you know, as
much as they could. And there was a big, big
talking point here in America about like asovs neo Nazi
and stuff like that, and they're very meant well maybe
true that there are parts of Azov that are as
of battalion that are that, but they were the guys

(34:28):
defending the Mariopol part of Ukraine and against an invading
force like.

Speaker 1 (34:34):
So, so look at that that look as of started
as as a far right movement right and they had
a far right battalion that that start that when the
war began with Russia, Russia invaded. These guys went to
the east and or where we were already in the
east and fought to defend Ukrainian territory from Russian attacks. Yes,

(34:57):
they were they were far right. They were also very
effective fighters, and they put their lives on the line
to defend Ukraine when when even the state couldn't do
anything in parts of the you know, so that won
a lot of respect from like, like imagine again, imagine
one of your far right you know, I don't know,
the fucking Boogaloo boys or whoever. Like imagine they did

(35:18):
something like that and people went, okay, look, we don't
agree with your politics, but like, right, so it was
kind of this this and the state. What was the
state to do with this group? Afterwards? The state responded
by saying, look, well done, We're going to make you
an official unit of the National Guard. Right, you are

(35:39):
now a state controlled structure. You're not a militia, you're
not paramilitary. You are the National Guard of Ukraine party,
you know, part and parcel of it. In exchange for that,
you will have no political activities whatsoever. Your your far
right affiliations are gone. You are just regular un It's

(36:00):
inside the army or the National Guards. That's what happened,
And like again, what what what would you rather they do?
They like, would you rather they said, no, stay stay
a paramilitary or or they went in and did something
massively unpopular by disarming, forcibly disarming these guys who who

(36:20):
defended Like it just you know, like there's going to
be public backlash to whatever you do, an international outcry
to whatever you do with anything.

Speaker 2 (36:31):
It was just crazy to me because like the the
the talking point here in America specifically was just like, dude,
there's fucking Nazis, Neo Nazis everywhere you go, brother, Like
what are we talking about? Like, let's stop you going
like you know.

Speaker 1 (36:47):
Some of the people that are basically neo Nazis and
America complaining that there are neo Nazis fighting, It's like,
what are you talking about? You guys agree on everything,
like with with the with the people that you're claiming
exist who do exist in a minor up there are
also anarchists and socialists and communists fighting in the Ukrainian Army.

(37:10):
I know a few of them, right, They're wild, they're
they're cool guys. Come meet some of them. But again,
they're fighting alongside liberals, They're fighting alongside bakers, lawyers, technicians, pianists, ballerinas,
they're fighting alongside everyone, and you know they're politics. Really

(37:32):
it doesn't matter at the end of the day in
what's going on. There are bigger things at play than
you know. They Ukrainians can have these fights about what
the identity of Ukraine is once they've secured their future
and independent right right, and they will do They're very
good that Ukraine's are very good at fighting over politics.

(37:53):
They'll do it on their own. They don't need you
to lecture them and do it for them. But again, when.

Speaker 2 (37:58):
They're fighting for their fucking freedom.

Speaker 1 (37:59):
Like like like that, don't make stuff up, like like, okay,
acknowledge as of history, but look at what's happened in
the years since then and be like, Okay, this happened,
and that happened, and that happened. Things change, man, Things change.
Shit happens, and then things change, and then you react
to things changing. Donald Trump is no longer the apprentice guy.
He's the President of the United States, right like like

(38:23):
you know, he was on on WrestleMania and now he's
in the White House. Like I can't keep talking about
him as if he's the WrestleMania guy forever, because he's
still the You know, I might not like that change happening,
but I have had to react to that change and
respond to it. So you have to react to the
change around you know, around the world. You know, it's

(38:46):
times are changing, man, times are changing. The world is
a change in place.

Speaker 2 (38:50):
It's interesting. It is interesting because never in my life
would I have thought far right American like far right
factions in America would be so pro Russia.

Speaker 1 (39:02):
Ah, it's very common in Europe. Lots of far right
here are pro Russia. You know. Look again, when I
say here, I mean in Europe. I mean look again.
I'm a liberal and and I you know, I'm very
clear and open and upfront disclosing what my what my
politics are. So so I know I'm reaching out and

(39:24):
I'm talking to people that I that I have no
shared you know, philosophy with. That's fine for the purposes
of trying to explain what's happening in Ukraine to people
who who are in parts of the world that Ukraine
relies on for support. And it would be a dereliction

(39:45):
of my journalistic duty to just allow Russia to talk
to these guys, you know, without anyone trying to correct
the record. Again, please go and visit Russia and try
and walk around and do something, and come and visit Ukraine.
Go to both countries, especially as an American.

Speaker 2 (40:04):
Yeah, go visit Moscow or even see like the nicer
areas and then see if you go walk around freely
like it's just go.

Speaker 1 (40:11):
If you if you're so convinced right that that that's
the that that's correct, prove it, go demonstrate it, you know,
or I mean I would, I would urge you not to.
Because Russia kidnaps Americans, holds them hostage and then they
get like criminals sent back by you know, giving up

(40:33):
these you know, they held a Wall Street journal journalist
for god knows how long, right, you know, this is
this is what we're talking about.

Speaker 2 (40:43):
This grainer too, who was playing boar basketball in Russia.
So she was like a well known the basketball player
in Russia. She got bag for some weed. And yeah,
like the Lord of War, you know.

Speaker 1 (40:56):
Like like like like our Americans really saying, oh, it's
that we sent Victor bout back to Putin. Why does
Putin want fucking Victor bout Like if he is this this,
you know, traditional whatever, why is he Why is he
getting a fucking warlord out of prison? Yeah? Like you
know what I mean?

Speaker 2 (41:15):
Like, yeah, it beggars belief. You don't. You can't. It's
like two plus two equals a beggar potatoes, you know
what I mean?

Speaker 1 (41:24):
Like, but look, all of these people said that Ukraine
would lose, Ukraine will lose you create Russia will crush you. First,
they won't invade, and then Russia will crush Ukraine. That
hasn't happened. We're three and a half years into this war.
Now we're going to be there's there's more war coming
and the Ukrainians are still fighting. What they're asking for
is your respect firstly right and your support secondly right.

(41:48):
If you're not going to offer your support, the least
you can do is offer your your respect, do you
know what I mean? Like, you be honest about what
they're going through. You can still turn around and say
you are facing an unjust assault by I still don't
want to send my tax dollers to Fine. That's your position,
go for it, but don't give me that garbage that
Ukrainians are are you know dying against their whale against

(42:12):
and they really want to, you know, be part of Russia.
It's not true. It's not true, all right, ma'am.

Speaker 2 (42:19):
One more thing, where do you think they are in
terms of like a passable cease fire?

Speaker 1 (42:25):
So far away, so so far away. There is no
progress on that whatsoever, even though the sides are talking.
The Ukrainians are trying to demonstrate to the Americans very
clearly that they are trying to talk with the Russians
because it's the only way. Like the thing is, it's
it's fine to criticize Trump for this, and I do
criticize Trump for this, but his position with Russia like

(42:51):
learning the hard way by trying to deal business with
Russia and trying to Obama did this, you know, Biden
started doing this, Macron did this, like hold On did this,
Merkle did this. Like all of the leaders of the
world tried to give Russia what it wanted so there

(43:13):
wouldn't be war, and they learned the hard way that
what Russia wants is war. And Donald Trump is determined
to learn for himself by offering Russia everything that it wants,
only for Russia to turn around and say no, no, actually
what we want is more war, motherfucker. And Donald Trump
is determined to learn this for himself. But he will learn,

(43:34):
like every other leader has learned that's been humiliated by
Putin over and over and over again, that he sees
any sign of diplomacy or negotiation as weakness that he
will exploit to further his get goals. That is the
way he thinks, because he is a mega maniacal fascist
dictator who wants to conquer European land. Like you know,

(43:58):
if you really care about all of this, you know,
freedom and and and and ship that you guys want
to claim, you you support. You've got an opportunity here
to actually stand on the right side of history where
where where where a dictator is coming into a democracy
and trying to say to a democracy, no, you will
be a dictatorship in the modern day.

Speaker 2 (44:20):
Right, Yeah, the choice is clear, dude, you know what
I mean, Like, it's it's clear, it's it's black and white.
Like as thanks for this, bro, Let's do it again
soon my pleasure.

Speaker 1 (44:33):
Guys, thank you so much for listening to a liberal
explained part of the world that I appreciate that it
might not be a perspective that that that lots of
people that might listen to this podcast want to hear.
But I feel it's important to, you know, reach out
to people I wouldn't normally speak to.

Speaker 2 (44:48):
So yeah, listen, think you'd be surprised we're pretty pro
Ukrainian here, like we're not.

Speaker 1 (44:53):
Yeah, I mean, look, there is a split. There is
a split in America, and I understand that split, and
I'm trying to to across that split. So I think
I think that's important. But listen, thanks so much for
listening to me, guys, and you have a great, great evening.
All right, thanks as tu see you brother.

Speaker 3 (45:09):
Hey guys, it's Jack. I just want to talk to
you for a moment about how you can support the show.
If you've been watching it enjoying it, but you'd like
to get a little bit more involved and help us
continue to do this. You can check out our Patreon
It is patreon dot com slash the Teamhouse, and for
five dollars a month you can get access to all
of these episodes of The Teamhouse ad free. The same

(45:32):
goes with our affiliated podcast Eyes On with Andy Milburn,
Jason Lyons mcmulroy. That one you will also get all
of those episodes add free and you support the channel
and the show, and we really appreciate it. The Patreon
members are literally what has helped this company and this
small business survive, especially during our early years, and you

(45:55):
are what continues to help this thing going even as
we navigate the turbulent world of YouTube advertising.

Speaker 1 (46:03):
So we really appreciate all of you. Guys.

Speaker 3 (46:05):
There's going to be a link down in the description
to that Patreon page, and there is also going to
be a link to our new merch shop, so if
you guys want to go and get some Teamhouse merchandise,
we got stickers and we also have patches, and I
should mention if you sign up for Patreon at ten
dollars a month, we will mail you this patch as well,

(46:26):
so we really appreciate that. But they're also for sale
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Speaker 1 (46:42):
We really appreciate it, guys.

Speaker 3 (46:44):
Thank you,

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WTF is Going Down in Ukraine? w/ Oz Katerji | EYES ON GEOPOLITICS

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.css-14f5ked{margin:0;word-break:break-word;display:-webkit-box;-webkit-box-orient:vertical;box-orient:vertical;-webkit-line-clamp:2;overflow:hidden;}WTF is Going Down in Ukraine? w/ Oz Katerji | EYES ON GEOPOLITICS