The Angel of The Lord w/ Doug Van Dorn [REFOILED]

Episode Transcript
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Speaker 1 (00:04):
Focusing on Christ. In the Old Testament, he is literally
the God of the Israelites. They knew him, they saw him,
they talked to him, he spoke back to them, and
he just didn't do it as a human being. He
did it in another capacity, which we talked about as
the angel of the Lord. Give a couple of verses
that I find in the New Testament. One is in
First Corinthians ten four Paul talking to the Corinthians and

(00:28):
using the Exodus story as kind of a warning for
the people, and at one point he says, all drank
from the same spiritual drink, or they drank from the
spiritual rock that followed them, and the rock was Christ.
And of course Christ in Greek is the Old Testament
concept of the Messiah. Another one Hebrews eleven twenty six.
Moses considered the reproach of Christ the greater wealth than

(00:51):
the treasures of Egypt, where he was looking to the reward.
Does that mean he actually knew Christ? I mean, how
could that possibly be? But that's what it seems to be.
Saying hello and welcome to the ten four Hack Club.

(01:19):
I'm Kyle and I'm Ben, and thank you for joining
us yet again. Well, we welcome back today Doug van Doren.

Speaker 2 (01:26):
So Doug is joining us again and we are going
to cover a fun topic today, Jesus in the Old Testament,
which we don't ever think of. Yeah, clearly a lot
of scripture that points towards the fact that He is
ever present, and we're going to get into that with
Doug today and he's going to take us on a
journey there, because I think that that is pretty phenomenal.
By the way, Doug, I have to say this week

(01:49):
we didn't really talk about this before here record, but
with we have Brian Goadawa's episode out this week, we
did talk about that and it is amazing to me
how many people are completely like, have no idea about
the Nephilm. They think that it's all extra biblical, it's
not even the Bible at all. It's some of the
conversations we've had on YouTube this week gi've been kind
of shocking from Christians.

Speaker 1 (02:11):
And now you think that talking about it, because you're
in the world, you know as much as jar that
everybody has the view, and then you get it just
outside that little bubble a little bit and it's like nope.

Speaker 2 (02:22):
Nope, it's kind of sad. So we're trying to get
the shock paddles out and wake up up to the
fact that there are actually these this incursion that happened.
But man, the other thing too, it is amazing how
doggedly people hold on to the whole Seth and Caine
line intermingling. That was another one that came up this
week and all the teachings of the church. But one
of the things that the Church doesn't teach about a

(02:43):
whole lot is the fact of like Christ and the
Old Testament. So and I know this is a passion
area for you. So what as you started to dig
into this, what are some initial things that you found
when you when you started to look at that topic.

Speaker 1 (02:58):
So when people think about Christ in the Old Testament,
I think they'll think prophecy, right, and that's a maybe typology.
I have a book I think it's called Christ in
the Old Testament prophesied, patterned, and promised or something like that,
and then actually present. So he's there in prophecy and

(03:22):
most Christians get that. Yeah, in Isaiah fifty three and
Psalm twenty two, and you know all the different passages
that the New Testament quotes about Jesus coming, especially coming
in the flesh as the as the son of God.
But after that it gets a lot a lot less clear,

(03:44):
I think to people. So prophecy is the easy one.
Typology is this idea that there are places, people, history,
stuff like that that somehow patterns or prefigures what's going
to happen with Christ. And so you can get that
with like sacrifices or the temple, you know, Jesus calling

(04:06):
himself the temple. If you destroy this temple in three days,
I'll rise up raise it up in three days. And
you know, so those are those are patterns of Christ.
And some people get that not not very well thought through,
but him actually being present. Like this is where my
passion is at because especially because I've run into so

(04:30):
many Christians that seem to split almost almost really literally
split the God of the Old Testament with the God
of the New Testament. Yes, and it just drives me bananas,
you know. So it allows them to do so many
crazy things with the teachings of Jesus and pit those
against the teachings of the Old Testament. And first of all,

(04:53):
the New Testament never does that, like in the Sermon
on the Mount itself. For a lot of people will
well quote, don't judge to be judged, or you know,
love your neighbor as yourself, as if these are all
New Testament ethics that they weren't never heard of in
the Old Testament.

Speaker 2 (05:07):
Right.

Speaker 1 (05:08):
It's just mind blowing that Jesus starts that sermon off
by saying he didn't come to abolish the law, but
to fulfill it. Not one jot or tittle is gonna
is going to pass away before really the Second Coming.
And so it just it drives me crazy because people
create this, really they create this God in their own

(05:29):
image in the New Testament based on a caricature of
the God of the Old Testament, not realizing and this
is what I you know, I hope we can really
get into today that it's actually the same God. And
it's not just that in terms of God in his essence,
but it's God in the three persons. And you know,
focusing on Christ in the Old Testament, you're obviously talking

(05:49):
about the second person of the Trinity, but he is
literally the God of the Israelites. They knew him, they
saw him, they talked to him, he spoke back to them,
and he just didn't do it as a human being.
He did it in another capacity, which we talk about
as the angel of the Lord. So, I mean, that's

(06:11):
kind of a long way of getting to your question there, Kyle,
And I'll just give a couple of verses that I
find in the New Testament that really people need to
be thinking about, what in the world are these people
talking about. So one is in Firs. Corinthians ten to four.
He's talking as Paul talking to the Corinthians and using

(06:33):
the Exodus story as kind of a warning for the people,
and at one point he says, all drank from the
same spiritual drink, for they drank from the spiritual rock
that followed them, and the rock was Christ. The rock
was Christ. What are you talking about? The rock was Christ?
And of course Christ in Greek is the is the

(06:55):
Old Testament concept of the Messiah. Another one Hebrews eleven
twenty six Moses considered the reproach of Christ greater wealth
than the treasures of Egypt, for he was looking to
the reward. What do you mean that Moses considered the
reproach of Christ's greater wealth? What does that mean? Does
that mean he actually knew Christ? I mean how could

(07:16):
that possibly be, But that's what it seems to be saying.
One of my favorite is Jude one five says, I
want to remind you, although you once fully knew it,
that Jesus, who saved a people out of the land
of Egypt, afterward destroyed those who did not believe. So
that's the ESV reading of this. And I remember very

(07:37):
distinctly when I kind of had been reading the NIV
for many years, the ESV came out late nineties, and
so I decided, you know, that evangelicalism was pushing this
Bible like crazy, and heard it was a really good translation,
so I decided to buy a copy and read it.
And when I first read that verse, I said, I've
never read this verse before in my life. So I
went back to the NIV. And it turns out that

(07:58):
the NIV says, I want to remind you, although you
once fully knew it, that the Lord who saved to
people out of the lands, out of the land of
Egypt after wed destroyed this who did not believe. So
then I visa is the Lord, and the es V
says Jesus, So what's going on there? Well, it turns
out that there is a there's a textual problem with

(08:21):
those two words. And you go and you read textual criticism,
and they'll all say that Jesus is almost certainly the
original reading, because it would be much more difficult to
read Jesus being in the Old Testament than the Lord,
because the Lord all over the Old Testament. So what
it seems to have happened is that some scribe came

(08:43):
along and read that and most likely thought it was
some sort of an error, and so he recorrected it
back to the Lord because that made sense. He couldn't
possibly believe that it could be Jesus.

Speaker 2 (08:54):
That's there.

Speaker 1 (08:55):
So the SV goes with the reading Jesus, and I mean, ooh,
mind blow, Jesus saved a people out of the land
of Egypt. And what I love about the fact that
the writer of this is Jude, who's literally Jesus's half brother.
A couple of more both in John John says Isaiah

(09:19):
said these things because he saw Christ's glory and spoke
of him. This is referring to the Isaiah six episode. Now,
when you read Isaiah six in the in the regular
Masoretic text, it doesn't say Christ. But when you go
in you look at the targum of this verse, you

(09:40):
see that it's talking about the the the glory of God,
which is which is what Isaiah, which is what John
is referring to. There, the glory, And then it's attaching
this to this mysterious figure that we'll get into called
the Word of God. And so Isaiah's seeing Christ's glory.
It's like what what? And then the last one, Jesus says,

(10:03):
your father Abraham rejoiced that he would see my day.
He saw it and was glad. So here you have Moses, Isaiah, Abraham,
All these people apparently saw Jesus according to the New Testament.
So why is it that we don't ever hear these verses?
Why is it that we find this incomprehensible? Why is

(10:24):
it that we've split this whole old New Testament thing
and the God of both of those testaments in so
many people's minds. Well, that's kind of what I've set
out as really my main project that I want to
do in the public sphere, in the way that I
teach the scripture to our church and whatever. You know,

(10:46):
when Jesus taught the disciples how to read the Bible
after he rose from the dead on the road to Emmaus.
It says that he he went from the Law, the Prophets, Moses,
the Psalms, and he taught them everything in the scripture
concerning himself. And I think a lot of people they
like that verse and they go, okay, So what that
means is he went to Isaiah fifty three and he

(11:08):
went to som twenty two. He taught him about the prophecy. Yeah,
I don't think so. And the more that I study
deeply the New Testament, the more I understand that what
he did is he taught them a hermaeutic, and that
hermaeutic was that I am everywhere in the Old Testament,
and you are to see that I am the story
of the Old Testament. I'm there present, I'm there in prophecy,

(11:31):
I'm there in pattern. And that is how the veil
is taken off our eyes in terms of the Gospel,
is by understanding and recognizing who this person is in
the Old Testament. He's he's the main actor, the main figure,
the main character of the Old Testament is the second
person in the Trinity.

Speaker 2 (11:49):
Yeah, yeah, wow, Now you would while you were talking
and you were referencing some verses and the difference between
the ESV and the NI, the ESV and the n IV.
You had looked up what we like, which is the CJB,
and you had looked up the verse about Moses, but
it says Adam on Adam and I, which could be right,
that's exactly another name for Yeah, you know, it's interesting.

Speaker 1 (12:12):
Yeah, yeah, Adam and I is like if you go
to Psalm one hundred and ten and the Lord said
to my lord. Yes, that's David making this proclamation. You know,
this is probably the second most quoted New Testament passage
that's actually a verse by versus, you know quotation. And
here you have David, the King of Israel, who says

(12:33):
that the Lord said to my lord saying, there's two
lords yeah above me, not one too right, and one
is called the Ahway. The second one is called auto Nie.
And then it appears that this auto Ni character, which
you know, that's the lower case lord as opposed to
all caps lord that you read in the in the
Old Testament, in a lot of Bibles. Yeah, that he's

(12:53):
the one who ends up being this h this person
that we're going to be talking a lot about in
the show.

Speaker 2 (13:00):
Yeah, it's I remember the verse two about I know
my Lord would not leave me to rot in the
grave or something like that, leave me and leave me
in chi ol.

Speaker 1 (13:07):
You know, yeah, that's probably sixteen.

Speaker 2 (13:10):
Yes. And you know, at first, you think anytime you
hear Lord, like you said, anytime you hear Lord in
the Old Testament, you just think, oh, they're talking about God.
Uh huh, you know, and that's it's just a it's
it's not accurate. And this is a great discussion because
this highlights a whole other issue that we run into
translation matters, and it is amazing how you can change

(13:32):
everything by just changing one small little thing. Sometimes in
this case, it's a bigger thing. Like if you say
Lord versus Christ. That's a big difference, right, because you're
being more generalized versus more specific. But it's amazing how
you can make a huge difference and make something say
something completely different when you just change something very small.

Speaker 1 (13:52):
You know, yeah, I don't think that it's something that's
necessarily nefarious on the part of the translators. You know,
they're dealing with textual variants, and so they have to
make a decision. There's another one that's actually it's identical
to the one in Jude. And it's found in that
same chapter that I just read, where the rock was

(14:13):
the rock that followed them was Christ. This is a
few verses later. It's verse nine in First Corinthians ten,
we must not put Christ to the test. Some of
them did and were destroyed by serpents. That variant is
the Lord. And so the NIV says we must not
put the Lord to the test, and the SEV says
we must not put Christ to the test. It's like,
to me, I can kind of get the Jude one, maybe,

(14:35):
but in this one, there is no variant in the
previous verse that says that the rock was Christ, and
yet they still decided to go not with the Christ variant.
They went with the Lord variant in the NIV, which
completely removes him from the picture of what you're reading.
So you're exactly right, you.

Speaker 2 (14:55):
Would say, I'll let you go first. Well, I used
to teach youth group and one of my favorite things
when we were teaching was the Exodus, and we're, you know,
says God passed Moses, you know, and he gets you
can you get really crazy when you're teaching kids. But
when you were saying all this that the thought of

(15:16):
what if that was Christ that he's seeing walk by?

Speaker 1 (15:21):
Yeah, so the the main So I've written a couple
of books on this, on Christ in the Old Testament.
One is it really it's a thinner book that I
just called Christ in the Old Testament. But the thicker
book that I wrote with a fellow pastor named Matt
Foreman is called The Angel of the Lord. And in
that book we Matt's the one who did the study

(15:41):
on that, but we go into a deep dive on
that passage in Exodus thirty two that in fact, that's
exactly who Moses is saying, is he's seeing the backside
of Christ.

Speaker 2 (15:55):
It almost makes you wonder too, Like I was thinking
when you said you mentioned Abraham, I'd have to go
back and read story. They're setting at the tree, yes,
and he comes with the two angels, and the two
angels eventually go to Sodomon Gomorah, and you know, it
makes you wonder now in hindsight of like was it
God or was it Christ? And you got to think, actually,

(16:15):
you would probably be better off to go and you
would probably be better to default to Christ a lot
of times because one of the things that I found
the more that I study, the more I read, even
in the extra biblical texts, it kind of highlights this
even more. But you find it in the Bible as well.
God very rarely actually makes a physical appearance before us

(16:41):
or man in anytime a command is given and God
has given credit for it. Most of the time what
is carried out he gets credit via proxy. Right, so
someone else is doing this, right, an angel is doing
it or whatever. God is the one that's given credit
for it because came on his orders. But there's another

(17:01):
entity or another being that's actually carrying that out. So
that would have been Christ walking with Adam in the
garden and correct.

Speaker 1 (17:09):
That's what we argue. So, I mean, we kind of
need to we kind of need to take it to
help people see this. We need to take it kind
of step by step and see that there are there's
a progression of thought that you need to get into
your head in order to in order to grasp this. Now,
you can start really in several different points here. You
don't have to just start at one. It's like a

(17:31):
it's not like a connect the dots something you have
to start at one in order to fire. You can
start at any of them and connect all the dots together.
But there's kind of a way that I like to
do it that I think would help people kind of
get into it as an introductory way of thinking about it.
There's like a couple of ways that I would do it.
So why don't we start with Exodus twenty twenty three

(17:58):
Versus twenty and twenty one, and we could read the
whole passage. But you know, we could do this for
the rest of our lives, honestly, so we will go
in as deep as we can. But this Exodus twenty three,
verse twenty and twenty one. Behold, I send an angel
before you. So notice the I am sending an angel

(18:19):
on the way to bring you to the place that
I have prepared. Pay careful attention to him, and obey
his voice. Obey his voice. Do not rebel against him,
for he will not pardon your transgression, for MY name
is in him. But if you are carefully obey his

(18:40):
voice and do all that I say, then I will
be an enemy to your enemies and adversary to your adversaries.
And it just keeps on going. So here you have
I would just look at what's actually in the in
the English text. Here, we have a couple of things
to notice. This angel can somehow pardon sends. Remember when

(19:00):
Jesus does this, when he heals that that man up
a galilee, and he first says, your sins are forgiven,
and he enrages everybody who can forgive sins but God alone?
And they goes, well, just so you know that I
have the authority to do it, get up your you know,
pick your matt and walk or whatever whatever. The miracle was, Well,
who can forgive sins but God alone? The answer is

(19:21):
they're right, no one can. However, if they would have
believed what they were reading here, they would know that
there was an angel in the Old Testament that could
forgive sins, and he's distinct from the eye who is
sending him. However, they are both the one true God's.
That's the killer thing about it. Okay. The second passage

(19:45):
to go to would be Judges chapter two. Now, these
two texts are related to each other, and you can
hear it as we read it, and notice how it
identifies this figure. Now, the Angel of the Lord went
up from Gilgal to Bakim, and he said, I brought

(20:05):
you up from Egypt and brought you into the land
that I swore to give to your fathers.

Speaker 2 (20:12):
Hmmm.

Speaker 1 (20:13):
I said, I will never break my covenant with you,
and you shall make no covenant with the inhabitants of
this land. You shall break down their altars. But you
have not obeyed my voice. There's your direct key to
what we just read. What is this that you have done?

Speaker 2 (20:31):
So?

Speaker 1 (20:32):
Now I say I will not drive them out before you.
What's interesting is in the earlier passage it's the I
who was sending is the one who said I will
drive them out before you. Now it's the Angel who says,
I will not drive them out before you, but they
shall become thorns in your sides, and their gods will
be a snare to you. And as soon as the
Angel the Lord spoke all these words of the people

(20:52):
of Israel, the people lifted up their voices and wept,
and they sacrificed to the Lord. So the language of
these two passages closely following one another, but in this
one it adds to it, saying that this is the God,
this is the person who brought them out of Egypt,

(21:14):
and who covenanted with the patriarchs. And we all know
that there's only one entity that does this, and that's God.
But yet here he's identified as the Angel of the Lord.

Speaker 2 (21:27):
Yeah. Interesting in this particular passage. I guess I'd never
really thought of it. And I'm admittedly weaker in the
Old Testament than i am the New. I'm much stronger
in the New Testament. But the last passage that we
read to start off, I had read before, and I
had always taken that to be Michael, because Michael is
actually the Angel. I know it says that Michael is

(21:50):
the Angel of Israelites, basically, that's their angel. But I
don't in hindsight now looking at it through this lens,
I don't think that's what we're talking about.

Speaker 1 (22:00):
Okay, So I'll throw a little money bench in there
for you, just for fun.

Speaker 2 (22:03):
Yeah, let's do it. Like it.

Speaker 1 (22:04):
If we go to if we go to Daniel ten
and twelve one, what we find is that Michael is
mentioned twice. And this will be this will be what
you just said, Kyle, to help people see this. So
this is a passage that explicitly talks about these sons

(22:28):
of God being princes over the nations, these heavenly beings
as princes over the nations, and Daniel ten thirteen, the
prince of the King of Persia, withstood me twenty one days.
So he was called the Prince of Persia. He's called
the Prince of Persia here and he's was standing Gabriel.
The Angel the heavenly Being says, but Michael, one of

(22:49):
the chief princes, came to help me, for I was
left there with him. For I was left there with
the King of Persia. And then you go down to
verse twenty one, and I will tell you what is
inscribed in the Book of Truth. There is none who
contends by my sight except the against these, except Michael,
your prince. So now that's identifying Michael as the prince

(23:09):
of Daniel. And then when you come to twelve one,
it says, at that time shall arrive Michael, the great
Prince who has charge of your people. Yes, okay, So
that establishes that Michael is the Prince of Israel. He's
the prince that's put over them. However, there's a couple

(23:31):
places that are really interesting to think about Michael in
relation to the Angel of the Lord. One of them
is Deuteronomy thirty two, and this is Dourami thirty two
eight and this is the famous passage that brings up
the sons of God, these princes of the nations yep.
And it says, when the Most Ti gave to the

(23:53):
nations their inheritance, he divided mankind, he fixed the borders
of the peoples according to the number of the sons
of God. And the next force is the killer here.
But the Lord's portion is his people. Jacob has allotted inheritance. Well, Lord,
there's Yahweh. So Yahweh is inheriting. That's the language Jacob

(24:17):
and Israel. Well, that's the same idea that you find
there with Michael, right, that he's the prince over them. However,
he's not called Michael there. He's called simply Yahweh here.
But if you read it in light of the previous
verse and in light of logic, sons are the ones
who inherit things. Right, So who does the Lord have
to be here? He has to be the son of God,

(24:41):
and so the Lord. This is one of those places
that I would take people usually later in the discussion
because we haven't really built.

Speaker 2 (24:46):
Up to it yet.

Speaker 1 (24:47):
But since we kind of went there, I mean, like
I said, you can start anywhere you want. The Lord
is being called the Prince of Israel here. In other words,
Michael is simply a proper name for this Angel of
the Lord. One other place I'll take you to is
Exodus chapter fifteen. This is the Song of Moses. This

(25:07):
is right after they've been delivered. And check this out
verse three. The Lord is a man of war. Now
we'll see. We could go to uh, we don't need
to go to this and do a lot of big
city I unless you want to. But remember when Jacob
is wrestling with a man during the night and then

(25:28):
this man blesses him and changes his name. Who is
that man? So, yeah, go.

Speaker 2 (25:35):
Ahead, I always figure it was Jesus.

Speaker 1 (25:38):
Yeah, yeah, I think that that's who does I think?
What we're what I'm trying to establish, and what I'll
argue throughout this whole this whole show, is that all
of these terms are actually synonyms for the Angel of
the Lord, including the name Michael, which is just a
proper name for him. Okay, And where do I get
the proper name from? So the Lord and the Lord

(26:00):
is a man of war, the Lord is his name.
So there you have Yahweh again being identified now as
a man now not a human. This is really important.
The word is not adam there, which is the word
man ascribed to human beings. The word is Esh, which
is a word that humans are sometimes called, and angels
are sometimes called ish as well, So we share ish,

(26:23):
but we don't share Adam with angels. Adam is the
name that we get from the garden, and only human
beings are that. But here the Lord is an esh.
He's a man of war. Now, when you go down
to verse I think it's eleven. In the song it says,
who is like you, o Lord among the gods? Who

(26:44):
is like human? Justican holiness, awesome and glorious deeds? Doing wonders?
So the words who is like you is meek ka
el in the Hebrew. And guess what word we get
from that, Michael, Michael. Michael is a word that some
means who is like the Lord? And it can either
be a statement or a question, and in both cases

(27:06):
the answer is no, one is like the Lord. And
that's the point here. Who is like the Lord among
the gods? And now the gods there would be the
princes of the nations. No one is like him? And
notice the word doing wonders, Well, that's something that's associated
with the Angel of the Lord in the Samson story
when he's just before he's born and the Angel Lord
comes to his parents and he does these wonders and

(27:28):
it's like, well, who is this figure? And he's called
the Angel Lord and he goes up in the smoke
and like, oh, we just saw God and we want
to die. And then it's also the Word of course
that's in Isaiah what is it seven where the Messiah,
you know, handles Messiah has that famous line about the
Messiah who is wonderful counselor it's the same idea going

(27:53):
on in all of these things. So all that's happening
there is that this wonder working God is now so
how prophesied to become a human being. But it's all
the same. Person.

Speaker 2 (28:06):
Are you remembering our conversation this morning all about your father?
I cannot tell you how many times this happens to us. Dog,
we will have something happen or some conversation or something.
We have no idea what we're going to be talking
to the guests. I mean, we have an idea of
what we're going to be talking to our guests about,
and then it comes up or we're doing a show
just you and I and it will just come up,
you know, strangely. But the conversation we had this morning

(28:28):
was his dad, who's our pastor. He was postulating and
toying with the idea that Michael was actually Jesus. Yeah,
what are the odds of that?

Speaker 1 (28:38):
That's you know, that's that's God's providence. Man, that's right,
you got a brother, And just just for some people,
just so they get the point that, you know, some
some people might might go, well, the Jehovah's witnesses believe
that Michael is Jesus, so that means Michael can't be Jesus. Now,
that's not their problem. There's been a fun of Christians

(28:59):
since the very, very very beginning of the church, and
to believe Michael is Jesus. Their problem is that they
believe Michael and Jesus is created. That's their problem. Their
problem is that that not that they identify the two,
but that they don't understand what kind of a being
this is that's in front of them. He's and that's
a whole muscle. Moses's whole point, right, who is like

(29:21):
the Lord among the gods? The answer is, no one
is like him.

Speaker 3 (29:25):
Yeah, yeah, the concept of God's oh my, you want
to watch people's minds melt that. Oh you do that,
and they'll call you a heretic because they instantly don't
they instantly gravitate towards polytheism, right because they don't understand
that no, no, no, no, we're still monotheistic and the fact

(29:46):
that there is one singular, you know, large g lochem God,
But they don't understand the Old Testament to understand how
everything was divvied up. There's a reason that God is
taking these particular people as his portion. Well, who do
you think got the other portions? You want to have gods?
Then I'm going to give you all these lesser elohem.

(30:08):
That's where we get back into Palmatey two. And we
can even see it in Job and all these.

Speaker 2 (30:13):
I would say, Okay, I'm kind of on the polytheistic
side as far as I understand and that there are
this God, then there's all the little gees. Yeah, and
I'm okay with that. Well because because because you know,
they're all created beans under him, they were set to

(30:34):
do a job that they're failing at, like everything. Yeah,
well that's why they're going to be you know, destroyed
like mortal mere mortals. Right. I did tell somebody that,
and they looked like their head was going to it.
Oh yeah, you say you're polytheistic. Their heads are going
to explode. Technically, technically that your viewpoint wouldn't be polytheistic.
It would still be monotheistic, because polytheistic would be like
a hendrew Hindu, where there's you know, everybody's equal. Yeah,

(30:58):
but I understand what it's I unders and what's going
on as far as yeah, you know, there's they're in
charge of everything. Paul said it.

Speaker 1 (31:06):
Yeah, there are many gods and many lords.

Speaker 2 (31:09):
That's right. Yeah, it's kind of fascinating. Do you think
that I know this is a side tangent, we're going
to come back, but I just think it's a fascinating
question based on where we're at. Do you personally think
that the lesser, smaller g gods are still in charge
of their respective areas whatever they were given.

Speaker 1 (31:30):
Uh, it's difficult to say. I don't. I kind of
don't think that they're in charge in the same sense
the same way that they were prior to the resurrection
and ascension. But I kind of look at it as
as if if they are bound, which I think is
possible because I actually believe Satan has been bound and
I think he's the Prince of Rome. So kind of

(31:52):
a long storied another podcast sometime.

Speaker 2 (31:54):
But.

Speaker 1 (31:56):
If that's true, if I believe Satan is bound, but
yet I'll also believe he's prowling around like a roaring
lion at the same time. Because my view of binding,
and this comes from reading all kinds of Second Temple literature,
including Enoch, is that you can have an entity be
bound and yet he's not incapacitated from doing anything whatsoever.

(32:17):
It's kind of like house arrest. It's it's like al
Capone running his kingdom from prison.

Speaker 2 (32:24):
So it's almost like they're stuck here on earth but
can't return to Heaven.

Speaker 1 (32:27):
Yeah, I mean, that's one way you could think about it.
Wherever their prison is. However you want to think about that,
it's a different ability that they have their abilities have
been lessened in some way, or they're their made ability
is that they don't have the power to keep someone
in their kingdom and in darkness any longer if the
Gospel comes and God wants to save someone, whereas previous

(32:51):
to that they actually had a legal right over that
person because they were given to them at this allotment
of the nations, and they also had a legal right
over the land as well, and that's changed in the
New Testament, so the Gospel can go into one of
their lands and a person can be saved, and they
don't have to go to Israel, and we become circumcised

(33:14):
and do all the kinds of things that you had
to do under the old Covenant administration. Because Jesus has
He's now seated at the right hand of power above
all rule and authority in heaven on earth.

Speaker 2 (33:29):
It's it's a fascinating it's a fascinating thought, and especially
when we look around the world and how things are going,
and you know, the Olympic ceremony and everything, and I
love how that you know what that really highlighted to me.
It highlighted to me similar to what we started the
conversation with with how sad of a shape Christians are in,

(33:50):
because I watched Christians argue and jump on other Christians
because they're like, no, that wasn't a that wasn't the
Last Supper. They weren't making fun of that. It was
actually Denysseus and all these things and I'm like, oh,
my goodness, you don't even understand, you know.

Speaker 1 (34:06):
As if that makes it any better, because you're going
back in worshiping like one of the most vile creatures
that's ever been in mythology, Yes, and you're putting up
them on the Olympics start. I mean, okay, that's way,
but that's way better than.

Speaker 2 (34:18):
But they don't understand. They don't, and they don't understand
that because there's a whole breakdown of understanding the Bible
in general. Like again, like we just talked about vast
majority of Christians. If you go to them and you
talk about this concept of other lesser gods, their minds
will melt. I taught. I taught at a school for
a short period of time, and these were some probably

(34:39):
seventeen to twenty year old you know, young adults, right,
And so it was kind of a late high actually
would be terribly I guess post high school kind of college,
if you will, sort of. And the class was know
what you believe And one of the things I got
into was psaw Maty two and the concept of lesser
g smaller and their parents freaked out.

Speaker 1 (35:04):
Did you get in trouble?

Speaker 2 (35:06):
Well, you know, I didn't really get in trouble, but
it was just along the lines of I got kind
of pulled and it was, hey, you know, we we
maybe we went a little hard and you know and
off the rails, you know, down this maybe path that
they're not ready for. And I'm like thinking to myself,
I'm like, it's the Bible. I'm like, I don't know
what we're freaking out about. The other thing that was

(35:29):
the single biggest thing that that that I that they
absolutely their minds melted over. Number two was I had
all the kids get the unseen realm oh man. Their
parents freaked out that we were talking about any of
that stuff. Actually, third was extra biblical texts right that
I thought that was. I thought that was going to
be the number one thing. But far and away, the

(35:50):
single biggest thing that absolutely made them just beyond twitchy
with me was the concept of psalmty two and the
Lesser allowheem. I will say that I've told you, but
I think you know. My wife, she asked me. We
were having this conversation a couple of weeks ago. She goes,
who do you think the God of America is? And

(36:11):
I was like, I don't know, you know, it's just
kind of and so we got to talk to somebody
and I realized it's Bail, because he's on our our
all of our government buildings in Washington, d C. There's Bail.
There's the bull in New York. I mean, we worship
that guy, whether we know it or not. I'm not
saying that we do, but yeah, yeah, yeah, the normal

(36:34):
world does. It would be awfully hard to argue, yes,
she sir, I mean, but I know who my God
is exactly. And that's the whole point. That's that's how
things are very different now. Well, the fact that we're
sitting here right now, all three of us have been
grafted in. Yeah, you know, thankfully for that. You know
that we have been so yeah that the minute Christ comes,
that kind of just stirs the apple sauce.

Speaker 1 (36:55):
I'm glad and God we trust thing.

Speaker 2 (36:57):
You know.

Speaker 1 (36:58):
It's kind of like all thesequestionans. We've got to keep that.
I'm like, well, which God, it doesn't tell you.

Speaker 2 (37:07):
Right exactly and it's in all calves. Yeah, it's it's
kind of terrifying, man of like exactly, it's a valid
point of like what God are we talking about? Because
it's not the God that we worship. I can tell
you that right now, based on everything we do.

Speaker 1 (37:21):
We are the back of the dollar bill, that's for sure.

Speaker 2 (37:25):
Right, the great, big, huge, all seeing eye. Right, got
Egyptian mythology, all right, there trust and Horace, we trust.
There you go. But anyway back, I know we had
a fun little scientigent there, but I definitely want to
get back. So what's kind of the next step for
taking us through this?

Speaker 1 (37:41):
Why don't we go to a couple of the early
places where the Angel of the Lord actually appears by
that name, because this is the way a lot of
people look at this, like, Okay, well, the Angel of
the Lord. I mean, maybe I could believe that that's
God or Jesus. Yeah, then they don't. They can't go
beyond that, right, So the first time he shows up
is actually really interesting because it's a story that very

(38:02):
much parallels the woman at the Well story in Johnny Board.
And it's where Hagar is in the middle of the
desert fleeing from Sarah. Okay, yeah, and this is Genesis
sixteen and verse starting in verse seven. The Angel of
the Lord found her by a spring of water in
the wilderness that interesting. Now you just imagine what I

(38:24):
just said with Jesus and the woman, right, yeah, right exactly.
It's like, so I think John is actually deliberately echoing
this story there. And he said, Hagar, servant of Sarah,
where have you come from? And where are you going?
She said, I am fleeing from my mistress Sarah. The
Angel of the Lord said to her, return to your
mistress and submit to her. The Angel of the Lord
also said to her, I will surely multiply your offspring

(38:48):
so that they cannot be numbered for multitude. We're going
to see that language again in Genesis eighteen, when when
God says the same thing to Abraham, I will multiply
your offspring. Who can do that but God alone? Come on, yeah, right,
first eleven promise leading in to this, the promise, over
and over and over and over. So verse eleven. The
Angel of the Lord said to her, behold, you are

(39:09):
pregnant and shall bear a son. And she calls name
Ishmael because the Lord has listened. Because the Lord has
listened to your affliction. Notice how it's just gone back
to Yahweh. There he shall be a wild donkey of
a man against his hand, against everyone in everyone's hand
against him, and he will do all over all over
against all his kinsmen. So she knows this now. So

(39:32):
she called the name of the Lord who spoke to her.
I remember what we said that the name is in
the angel in Exodus twenty two. Same idea here. The
name of the Lord is the Lord. The name of
the Lord is the Angel of the Lord. And this
is what she said to him of him, you are

(39:53):
a god of seeing. You are el Roy.

Speaker 2 (39:57):
Yeah.

Speaker 1 (39:58):
And I like that the Eese capitalize is God here
because that helps us as English people. English readers see
that the Angel is God. That's what she's saying. Okay,
a second one to look at what the Angel the
Lord is actually Genesis twenty one. I think this is
the second time that or twenty two. Sorry, this is

(40:20):
the second time that the Angel actually appears by that name.

Speaker 2 (40:23):
Can I pause you just for a questions. It's interesting
because when you go and read the rest of the
verse we were just talking about, and this is the
CJB that I'm reading from. So she named Adam and
I who had spoken with her el Roy, god of seeing.
And this is the interesting part because she said, have
I really seen the one who sees me and read
in parentheses it says and stayed alive.

Speaker 1 (40:46):
I love that. I love that.

Speaker 2 (40:49):
Because you know they trembling in fear either like God,
and we set our gaze upon the Lord, we will die.

Speaker 1 (40:57):
How many times is that found in the Bible A.

Speaker 2 (41:00):
Lot, especially in the Old obviously the Old Testament. But
anyway I had, I mean and erupt, you please continue.

Speaker 1 (41:04):
That's great, great. I actually didn't. I don't think I've
ever read the CGB on that. So that was that
was pretty neat. So the second one, here's Genesis twenty two.
I think we should read a bit of this story.
This is a great story that foreshadows, so this will
be a typology that I mentioned earlier, patterning of Christ
and God, the Father sacrificing his son on the cross.

(41:28):
And this is what again, I'm sorry, Genesis twenty two,
the sacrifice of Isaac on Mountain Mariah. Yeah, which just
happens to me in mounta Zion. Yeah. After these things,
God tested, God tested Abraham and said to him, Abraham,
and he said, here I am. He said, take your son,
your only son, Isaac. That's actually where Hebrews get to
only be gotten son and it applies it to Isaac,

(41:51):
which is a very much a pattern obviously of Jesus.
Is the only and of course he's not the only
son of Abraham, is he. He's he's actually the second
son of Abraham. But he's the unique son. He's the
only begotten son of Isaac, whom you love. Go to
landam Mariah and offer him there as a burnt offering
on one of the mountains, on which I will tell you.

(42:12):
So Abraham rose early in the morning, saddled his donkey
and two of his young men with him and his
son Isaac, and he cut the wood for the burnt offering,
and arose and went to the place of which God
had told him on the third day. I love that
on the third day, yep, exactly, Abraham lifted up his
eyes and saw the place from afar. And Abraham said

(42:35):
to the young men, stay here with the donkey. I
and the boy will go over there and worship and
come again to you. And I think hebrew says that
Abraham believed that God could raise him from the dead.
Right anyway, Abraham took the wood of the burn offering,
laid it on his son Isaac, and he took in
his hand the fire and the knife. So they both
went together, and Isaac said to his father, Abraham, my father,

(42:59):
he said, here, I am my son. He said, behold
the fire in the wood. But where's the lamb for
the burn offering? Right exactly?

Speaker 2 (43:08):
Well, the funny thing is just to just to interject here,
because my wife and I have been spending some time
reading Jubilees, which I would encourage everybody to read. I
have found nothing in Jubilees that I could call objection
to no personally, And what it clearly states in Jubilees is,
you know, we have the have the idea that you know,
Isaac in this particular case is a young boy. Yeah,

(43:30):
and he's not. He's like twenty years old at this point.
That's the way it reads in Jubils. Yeah, he's not
a four year old, right, yeah. So like when he's
asking these questions, obviously he's putting things together that like
holy cow. And then as you continue to read the
story and we get on the altar and everything else
that's looking that gives it a completely different spin when
you know that that is the background. So sorry, please continue.

Speaker 1 (43:53):
Abraham said, God will provide for himself. The lamb for
a burn offering my son. I notice he's been called
God in this passage ellen as opposed to Yahweh. So
they both went them together, and then they came to
the place which God had told him. Abraham built the
offer the altar there and laid the wood in order,
and bound Isaac's son and laid him on the altar

(44:15):
on top of the wood. Then Abraham reached out his
hand and took the knife to slaughter his son. But
the Angel of the Lord called to him from heaven
and said Abraham, Abraham, and he said, here I am.
He said, do not lay your hand and the boy
or do anything to him. For now I know that

(44:37):
you fear God, seeing that you have not withheld your son,
your only son, from me. Yeah, okay, yeah wow. And
Abraham lifted up his eyes and looked, and behold behind
him was a ram caught in a thicket by the thorns.
And Abraham went and took the ram and offered it
up as a burnt offering instead of his son. Well,

(44:58):
why why would why would the angel do this? It's because, look,
this is a crazy powerful passage if you understand the
typology and who it is that the Angel is. The
Angel is actually Jesus, who is the one who is
going to make this offering himself two thousand years later.
And he knows that, and so he's like, no, this

(45:21):
is not the way of it. I'm you know, I'm
glad you obeyed my voice, but I'm not going to
have you do it, because this isn't going to solve
any of the problems, you know, which this is what
the Pagans do, right, they offer the children firestamlek. He
just brought that up right with bail. And so this
is a very powerful passage that foreshadows the need that

(45:44):
we have for Jesus to offer himself. And it's the
Angel of the Lord who's doing this. When you go
down to verse fifteen, the Angel the Lord called to
Abraham a second time from heaven by myself I have sworn,
declares the Lord. There it is again, ye' yah way,
because you've done this and have not withheld your son,
your only son, I will surely bless you, and I

(46:06):
will multiply your offspring as the stars of heaven and
the sand of the sea. So who is saying these things?
The Angel is Angel who is saying these things Yahweh
is who is saying these things elohem is, because they're
all the same thing. You don't have to have it
say the Angel of the Lord for it to be
the Angel of the Lord. It could be just Yahweh

(46:31):
and that's the angel. And this is what we're learning
by reading carefully these texts that have the Angel in him.

Speaker 2 (46:39):
Yeah. I like you brought up Jubilees. I was listening
to Josher last week and it said was listening to
this account and it said that God created a lamb
or a ram just for that for Abraham from the beginning.
Oh yeah, and it said the thicket was actually Satan

(46:59):
was trying to stop the Ram from getting there.

Speaker 1 (47:03):
Interesting.

Speaker 2 (47:04):
Oh and that's where it got hung up. Yeah, And
I was just like, that's the typology. Why why don't
we talk about that stuff even more?

Speaker 1 (47:15):
I know we're too busy telling people how to have
a happier life, right amen.

Speaker 2 (47:20):
Amen. We were talking to my wife and I were
talking about that this morning. It's all about It's all
about you these days. I've started calling it burger king Jesus.
Burger king Jesus. Look have it your way. Like the
conversation we had earlier to right it exactly.

Speaker 1 (47:36):
I love it.

Speaker 2 (47:37):
It's disturbing.

Speaker 1 (47:39):
I'm must steal that guy.

Speaker 2 (47:40):
Okay, feel free. That's yours free charge, Burger King. We
should have some shirts made that say that we've actually
talked about that, so check the store, Burger King.

Speaker 1 (47:51):
All right, I want to go to another one here.
This is Genesis eighteen, because you guys brought this up earlier,
so we're now we're ready to hear it a little bit.
This is two long chapters, but we will only look
at just a few of the verses. Genesis eighteen begins
this way, and the Lord, now this is Jahweh again

(48:12):
appeared to Abraham by the oaks of Mamre. As he
sat at the door of his tent in the heat
of the day. He lifted up his eyes and looked,
and behold, three men were standing in front of him.
When he saw them, he ran from the tent of
the door to meet them, and bowed himself to the earth,
and said, Oh Lord, now this is otto, and I there,

(48:34):
if I have found favor in your sight, do not
pass by your servant. Let a little water be brought
and wash your feet and rest yourselves under the tree.
While I bring a morsel of bread that you may
refresh yourselves, and after that you may pass on, since
you have come to your servant. And they said, do
as you've said. Now, this is totally embodied language by
the way he sees them. He rushes out and talks

(48:56):
to them. He goes back and kills a calf. They
eat together, and he washes their feet. Yeah, and this
is the Lord and two angels. Okay, So then the
story right after that goes that the two angels leave
and the Lord stays and he's in a tent with
Abraham and he's telling him he's going to have a kid.

(49:16):
Sarah's in the tent next door. She overhears it and
she starts laughing.

Speaker 2 (49:20):
It gets snarky.

Speaker 1 (49:20):
Yep, right, But who is it that is having a conversation.
The Lord is the Lord Yahweh is having a conversation
in a tent after he's had his feet washed with Abraham.
Now then you have this weird story. I don't know
if you've ever seen. It's a very old sketch that
Bill Cosby did called Noah, and he has this he

(49:44):
has this idea where Noah's sitting there just mining his
business and all of a sudden, the Lord says Noah, Noah,
And it's just it's a disembodied voice that he's hearing, right,
build me an arc. It's like, what's an arc? Who
are you? I'm the Lord? You know, it's all in
his head. There's no embodiment, there's no physicality. That's not

(50:07):
what's going on here. He's there's a person in front
of him.

Speaker 2 (50:12):
Yeah.

Speaker 1 (50:13):
Right, And when when they start having this barter session
about he's like, I'm going to destroy scotom and Gomorrah.
And then you know, he's like, well, what about fifty people?
What if there's forty five people?

Speaker 2 (50:23):
And what if there's forty people?

Speaker 1 (50:24):
What if there's thirty five people. It's like one of
the funny stories in the Bible.

Speaker 2 (50:27):
Right, Yeah, It's like I felt always. We just reread
this obviously, and jubilees again the other day and I
made the comment Adrian, I'm like, there's a good thing
to use cars went around back when abrahams he wouldn't
have been rich, dude, he'd have been broke.

Speaker 1 (50:38):
So I think he gets him all the way down
to ten, which of course is a number for a
tie or a tenth, right, and then the story ends.
But this is a This is a face to face,
is what it is. Now in the meantime, while they're
having this conversation, we come to chapter nineteen, and the
first verse says the two angels. So these are the

(51:00):
two guys that were in the camp with Abraham. Now
suddenly they've gone to Sodom and Gomorah, which is many
miles away, and they're like there in a second, yeah, right,
And they came to Sodom in the evening, and Lot
was sitting at the gate of Sodom. Now, notice it
says two angels in verse nineteen. That's important. When Lot

(51:21):
saw them, he rose to meet them, bout himself with
his face to the earth, and said, my lords, please
turn aside from your servant's house, spend the night, wash
your feet more feet washing. I just noticed that. Then
you may rise early and go on your way. They said, no,
we'll spend the night in the town square. And he
pressed them strongly, so they turned aside to him and
enter the house. And he made them a feast and

(51:41):
baked un love and bread, and they ate same idea
as what we just saw. But before they lay down
the men of the city the men of Sodom, both
young and old. All the people to the last man
surrounded the house, and they called the lot, where are
the men? See that it's changed from angels to men.
This is the ish men who came to you tonight.
Bring them out to us so that we may know them.

(52:03):
So now, all of a sudden, instead of hearkening Tarmaians
what we just read in chapter eighteen, now we're going
back to Genesis six exactly, except it's the reverse. Now
it's men doing it to angels, right right, yeah, okay,
and it is homosexual still.

Speaker 2 (52:17):
But it's really thought of that. Oh yeah, well I
had that same thought, because again we were just going
back through the story, right and Jibili's and I caught
that too through this time. Yeah, and you and I
had talked that day too, and you had said in
Jasher they actually had the practice of tying people down
in the square so that everybody could have their way
with them. Yeah, yeah, they. I mean, I don't think

(52:38):
in the Bible doesn't highlight the detestability of what this
really was. But anyway, we don't need to get into that,
but we can.

Speaker 1 (52:44):
But my point there was just highlighting that the that
the word has changed from angel. Yeah, yeah, yeah, okay,
so they're interchangeable each and angel interchangeable.

Speaker 2 (52:53):
There.

Speaker 1 (52:54):
Now we know that the story goes on and you know,
they end up striking the people blind, and then Lot
leaves the house really quick and they you know, his
wife looks back and all that kind of stuff. But
when you go to verse twenty four, all of a sudden,
you have something really weird happen. So the Lord has
shown back up just a few verses before this. So

(53:17):
he was with Abraham. Now he's down outside of Sodom
and Gomorrah where those two are the family is and
the other angels. And verse twenty three the sun had
risen on the earth when Lot came to Zoar. And
then verse twenty four and Yahweh rained on Sodom and
Gomorrah sulfur and fire from Yahweh out of heaven. It's like,

(53:41):
what what did I just read there? And believe it
or not, the Jews were the first to see this
before Jesus ever came along, and they're like, there's two
Yahwehs in this verse.

Speaker 2 (53:51):
Yeah, why would you do that?

Speaker 1 (53:52):
There's one in heaven and there's one on Earth.

Speaker 2 (53:55):
Yeah, there's no need for it unless you're distinguishing that
there are two different entities we're talking about exactly.

Speaker 1 (54:00):
And so here you have and many many church fathers, reformers,
all kinds of people have said one is the Father
in heaven and one is the Son on the earth. Yeah,
and this again, he's just simply called the Yahweh. But
we've seen that he's also called the Angel of Yahweh.
And we've seen that he's called the name of Yahweh.

Speaker 2 (54:25):
So it's AD and I twice in hours. But the
same concept exists whether you call it Allowhem or Ad
and I. The fact that you're reading it twice makes
no sense unless you are establishing the fact that there
are two different entities we are talking about in this
particular case. Yeah, I think that's fascinating. Take it to
another one. Remember John One one says in the beginning

(54:49):
is the Word, and the Word is with God, and
the Word was God. So that's doing exactly what Genesis
nineteen twenty four is doing. It englishing as two separate
but yet they're the same.

Speaker 1 (55:03):
Yes, I had it's identical.

Speaker 2 (55:06):
I had a Mormon tell me that was the worst
sentence they've ever heard.

Speaker 1 (55:10):
John one one a Mormon, not a j W.

Speaker 2 (55:13):
Huh. Yeah, you know that's kind of funny because typically
Mormons like more stuff that they they like that that
is the worst sentence I have ever heard. That that's wrong. Wow.

Speaker 1 (55:26):
Okay, well, then what's so great is it with with
the both of these cults is that you can you
know that the Mormons have a translation that's actually decent
of the Bible. The JW's of course change that. But
j w's have not changed anything of this in the
Old Testament. I remember in both college and seminary they

(55:47):
taught us that, Well, John is just really arguing against gnosticism,
Greek Greek gnosticism when he's talking about the Word, and
because the Gnostics didn't like matter, they only like spirit.
And so when it comes to verse fourteen and the
word became flesh and dwelt among us, a gnostic would

(56:09):
hate that. Okay, besides the fact that at best it's protgnosticism.
When John's writing that, because narcissism isn't even full blown
for another hundred years, he's not getting it from Greek gnosticism.
He's getting it from the Old Testament. So go to
Genesis fifteen, verse one.

Speaker 2 (56:31):
This is a Bible study. This is awesome. This is
good stuff.

Speaker 1 (56:36):
Genesis fifteen to one. After these things, the word of
the Lord came to Abraham in a vision. Wait a minute,
he came to him. How he came to his eyes?
He didn't come to his ears. Yeah, but words come
to ears, but not this one. This one comes to
his eyes. He sees the word of the Lord. And

(57:00):
then you know, fear not, Abram, I am your shield,
I am your great reward. Abraham said, But the Lord God,
Oh Lord, Abram said, O, Lord God, what will you
give me? If I continued childless? Abram said, behold, I've
given You've given me no offspring, and a member of
your household will be my heir. You hold, the word

(57:21):
of the Lord came to him. This man shall not
be your heir, but your very own son shall be
your heir. And you brought him outside and said, look
toward heaven and the number of the stars. If you're
able to number them, then he said, so shall your
offspring be. And I love this verse because Paul quotes
this in Romans. And he believed the Lord, and he
counted it to him as righteousness. This is like the

(57:45):
this is what Paul goes to. This is the gospel
right here. This is where Abraham is justified by faith
in Christ. It's not just that he believes what This
isn't just kind of believing in him. It's that he's
talking to him and he says something to him and
he believes him. I believe you, I believe you. I

(58:08):
believe what you said. And it's counter to him as righteousness.
He believes who he believes, the Lord who previously was
the word of the Lord, who is the Angel of
the Lord, who is the name of the Lord, who
is Christ himself. Abraham saw his day and rejoiced.

Speaker 2 (58:25):
Yeah, okay, I knew this was going to come up
from our conversation earlier that we had. What how does
salvation work? Do you pray a prayer and do you
ask Christ into your heart or is it a relationship?

Speaker 1 (58:44):
Well, well, there's even another component too, like how do
you get saved in the first place. So the kind
of thesis statement of Romans is that the Gospel is
the power of God for salvation my not my accepting it,
my praying a prayer it itself. In other words, it's
a power. It's a power that's external to me that

(59:07):
when it comes to me effectually it changes me, and
in the course of it changing me, just the same
way that I'm a conceptis of my parents, and I
did nothing for that. All of a sudden, I'm there
because the word that's its power. And then once that

(59:28):
conceptis happens, then it comes out because it wants to.
I mean, that's Jacob Andisa. I'm fighting to see who's
going to come out first with the twins, right like,
there's a will there and they want to come out.
And so as they do that, then they believe they
because they've been brought to life. Abraham was brought to

(59:49):
life way before chapter fifteen. That happens way back at
the end of chapter eleven when God calls him out
of Mesopotamia, and then there's a relationship after that, you know,
so it's kind of all it's all there together.

Speaker 2 (01:00:03):
It's kind of funny as we're having her talking, it's
it's kind of I wasn't prepared for this. This is
great because it's it's rejuvenated a fire to when you
start to realize this and you start to see how
did I miss that? You kind of feel bad about yourself.
You're like, how did I miss that all those times
I've read that, because you can clearly see in the

(01:00:26):
sentence where I'm like one to go shoot people? Now
I know well and yet that and for me, I'm like,
I want to go back and reread everything because it's
making me wonder. You couple what you what we're all
talking about, and then you couple it with what I
said earlier about how God does very little himself and
he uses proxy to do everything. But it's making me
think even bigger than that of like I wonder how

(01:00:47):
much of what we've seen is even God at all,
or really the vast majority of it is actually Christ,
so much so that when you look through Genesis one
one through this lens, it makes you wonder if is
God creating everything? Or is Christ creating everyth.

Speaker 1 (01:01:06):
Isn't that exactly what Paul says? Right? So it's both
in Colossians one, and he does this several places where
all things are too and from the Father, but they're
also from and through Jesus or whatever. Yeah, yeah, it's
funny in Genesis one him through him or yeah exactly exactly.

(01:01:26):
Lots of Christians go to Genesis one twenty six and
let us make man and armies or like, that's a trinity,
and I'm thinking, no, it's actually not. I mean it,
the trinity is there, but it's more than the trinity,
because that's the Us, is the is the image bearers angels.
But you can actually go the first three verses and
by in trinity God in the beginning, God heaven the earth.

(01:01:51):
It's funny because there was actually translations in the early
Church that are based on that very word bear rashet. Yeah,
so that word it comes from the word roche, and
roche means first or head, and sometimes a head can
be like the head of a nation or a head
of a tribe. And it can also translate it first born.

(01:02:12):
In the first born, God created the heaven. There like
there's all kinds of weird things that are going on here.
I actually think that's a Paul's doing in Colossians one,
what is it, fourteen sixteen whatever, when he goes the
first he talks about firstborn there. Why because in the
firstborn God created the heavens of the earth. And then
the spirit's hovering and then God said, and what is
this said, that's the word, that's the word of God.

(01:02:33):
So you've got all three of them, either in the
first two verses or the first three verses.

Speaker 2 (01:02:38):
Yeah, of the Bible. Have you ever seen the video
that breaks down Bearashet and Hebrew when you put it
all together, it actually basically because people don't understand how
Hebrew worked. So just to clarify really quick, when you
look up Hebrew, there is a number associated with each character.
All right, there's a character, there's a number, and they're
like a written character. But then there's also a picture

(01:02:59):
and a meaning for that particular letter if you will
right sound, And when you put them all together, it
actually points to Christ on the cross the word bearer sheet.
When you put it all together, you.

Speaker 1 (01:03:11):
Should put a link to that under the show.

Speaker 2 (01:03:13):
Yeah, I'll have to do that. I've actually I've got
a video that I made myself. It's out there on YouTube.
I can link that as well.

Speaker 1 (01:03:20):
There you go.

Speaker 2 (01:03:21):
But yeah, it's pretty it's pretty fascinating when you actually
see and it's so crazy because that's the other thing
I was thinking as we're sitting here talking of like, man,
I wish I knew Hebrew. I wish I was fluent
in Hebrew, because if you were fluent in Hebrew, and
you went back and you read this and you think
from that perspective, right, there is probably so many dimensions
going on, because that's how God works, right, He's multi dimensional,

(01:03:41):
multi layered. He doesn't operate on time like we do.
And when you understand how Hebrew works, it's very multi dimensional. Right.
Like we just said, there's a number, there's a character,
there's a picture, there's a sound and a meaning. And
that's why the other thing too, we said earlier, John
and Tittle, those are the two smallest characters in the
Hebrew alphabet. That's why Jesus is saying. What he's saying

(01:04:03):
is because those two, even the smallest things, are not
going to pass away. I'm not doing away with any
of that stuff. And it's so that you don't understand
that though, until you understand a little bit of Hebrew.
But I started doing it with dual lingual Hebrew. Yeah,
I gave up. You know, it couldn't be as hard
as Irish. That's another Gaelic is terrible. But anyway, so yeah,

(01:04:25):
this is good man, this is fantastic. Please please continue
whatever's next, Please please take us on the journey.

Speaker 1 (01:04:30):
I mean, there's just so many things you can do.
You know, you go to the Garden of Eden and
you find that the Lord is walking around in the
cool of the day, right in the garden. Yeah, which
I actually think is a terrible translation because it's totally
the day of Judgment because he's coming there to judge
what they've done. There's all kinds of weird Hebrew things

(01:04:51):
that are going on there, But that's not my main
point here. My main point is that he's walking there
and they're hiding from him.

Speaker 2 (01:04:58):
Yeah, and he.

Speaker 1 (01:05:00):
Comes there, and then when he after he pronounces the judgment,
which they obviously hear and they see him. Then he
goes and he kills an animal and presumably skins it,
and then what does whatever else he needs to do,
and then clothes them with it. That's all of this

(01:05:20):
is embodied language of the Angel of the Lord, and
he becomes the one who is the God of Adam.
Remember we saw that the Angel was covenanting with the patriarchs.
So when you go to Noah the first time the
word covenant appears in chapter six of Genesis, who is

(01:05:42):
it that's coming to him? Well, it's just yahweh in
that case, So it doesn't say the Angel of Yahweh.
So people get all, you know, they're like, well, it
can't be the Angel. What we've seen is that many
times that Yahweh actually is the Angel. And again it's
the same kind of idea. I want you to build
me an ark and I want it to look like
this and this. It's not Bill cause he's disembodied at
least in the head. It's an entity that came to

(01:06:04):
him before the flood and told him what was going
to happen and then told him to build an arcs
hold them exactly how to do it. And it's the
Angel of the Lord. It's he is the main figure
of the Old Testament. He's the one who meets with
every single person of any kind of significance in the

(01:06:27):
Old Testament, beginning with Adam and Eve, going all the
way through to the end of the of the Old Testament.
They knew him, they saw him, they believed in him.
One of the most important verses that I think that
you can go to, it's a couple of verses. It's
found in Genesis forty eight. This is Jacob blessing his sons.

(01:06:47):
And this was another another one that that the church
fathers Puiritans really liked this verse two verses. This is
Genesis forty eight fifteen and sixteen. He blessed Joseph and said,
the God before whom my father's Abraham and Isaac walked,
the God who's been my shepherd all my life long

(01:07:11):
to this day, the Angel who has redeemed me from
all evil, blessed the boys. So this is a it's
a triplet here, right, and the first to repeat, and
then the third one adds something that the other didn't.
The God, the God, the Angel. But it's not that
there's three entities, it's that there's one. And he's recognizing

(01:07:32):
that this God and this Angel is the one who covenanted,
the one who walked with them, the one the shepherd, right,
the Lord is my shepherd. David says. We know that
David knew Jesus because he says it in Psalm one
hundred and ten that we started off with earlier. So
who's the shepherd when Jesus says I am the good
shepherd right in John's Gospel? Where's that coming from? It's

(01:07:56):
coming from Psalm twenty three, it's coming from Genesis. He's
forty eight sixteen. He is claiming to be and John
of all the four Gospels. John by far is really
working on this language, whether it's the name of God,
the Word of God, the glory of God, the Shepherd.
I mean, he does this all over the place. Jesus

(01:08:17):
identifies as all of those, but they're all coming from
the Old Testament, and they're all related to this one
person that they know who becomes this intercestor between them
and the Most High, the Father in Heaven, and he
happens to be their God, right. I mean, that's what's
so amazing about the whole Divine Council thing of Deuteronomy

(01:08:41):
thirty two, eight and nine is that the sons of
God are given to the seventy nations. But there's only
seventy nations. There is not seventy one nations, there's only seventy.
But yet the Lord's inheritance is Israel. What does that mean.
It means he created them out of nothing. It's kind
of it's like a genesis one event they weren't there,
then all of a sudden they were. So it's like

(01:09:02):
he didn't he inherited them, but he also was their creator.
He's the one who who made them come into existence
in the first place. That's that's the language that you
only find of in all powerful, all knowing, omnipotent, omniscient,
you know, all present, uncreated being, which is who Israel worships,

(01:09:24):
and this is who the Angel is himself.

Speaker 2 (01:09:27):
So that almost goes when Jesus says to Thomas, if
you've seen me, You've seen.

Speaker 1 (01:09:32):
My face, I've seen the Father. It's exactly right.

Speaker 2 (01:09:35):
Yeah, yeah, there was a I had a verse pop
in my mind earlier. I want to get your take
on this because I've read this before and I was like,
I wonder what exactly that means. And it's actually in
Genesis four twenty six. Yeah, do you familiar?

Speaker 1 (01:09:51):
Yeah? I know the verse?

Speaker 2 (01:09:52):
Okay, so yeah, just for everybody out there. So this
is to Seth too was or a son whom he
called Enosh. That is when people began to call on
the name of Adonai.

Speaker 1 (01:10:08):
What is It's a very strange verse, and there's two
completely opposite interpretations of it. So I actually kind of
tend to think that the targums are probably more right
because when you go back and you look at earlier
in the chapter, right, Abel and Cain are actually going

(01:10:31):
and offering sacrifices to who to the Lord? So there's
already the worship of him going on. Yeah, so what
happened was that? And I don't remember. It's like the
word chakak or something like that, chakall. I forget what
the verse what the word is there, but it can
mean not only call upon, but it can also mean pollute,
and so they interpret it as this is it was

(01:10:53):
under Enosh here that men began to pollute the name
of the Lord. And this is kind of their Their
thinking was that this was kind of when the first
idolatry began and and that kind of stuff.

Speaker 2 (01:11:10):
What's the other interpretation typically, well.

Speaker 1 (01:11:12):
That that that they're they're calling upon just in a
good way, like this is the good worship of God
or something like that.

Speaker 2 (01:11:20):
Yeah. That that didn't jive to me because it doesn't
make any sense because they've already been doing that to
your point, right exactly, it just doesn't. It doesn't. It
didn't make any sense to me. That's why I had
the question when I read it. Well then even in
verse six up there Adam and I said to Kine,
why are you angry? Why are you so downcast? So
obviously he was physically there if he can talk to him.

Speaker 1 (01:11:44):
Yeah, absolutely, absolutely, you know, you presume you have to infer,
but it's a pretty good inference that he had established
how he wanted to be worshiped. Yeah, before they ever
did this. And so when the two men go and
they worship him at the or of Eden, they knew
what they were supposed to do. And the problem wasn't

(01:12:05):
that Kin was insincere. The problem is that he didn't
do what he was supposed to do. Yeah, you know,
he's like, well, I'm a farmer, I'm going to bring
my grain, and the whole idea is there. No, this
has to be an animal offering because only only blood
can tone for your sin. Yeah, so why are you
so angry, Kane? You knew what you were supposed to do.

Speaker 2 (01:12:27):
And I like it. In the seven is said further,
like halfway through seven is this If you don't do
what is good, sin is crouching at the door at once,
but you can rule over it. And right there he
gives him an out.

Speaker 1 (01:12:40):
Yeah.

Speaker 2 (01:12:41):
How often does God give us an out? And we
don't take it? Just about every day? Well some people.

Speaker 1 (01:12:50):
So you know, in our book, we we go through
the Angel is God. The Angel is the word, the
Angel is. The Angel is the name. We've looked at
all those already. There's one that's kind of tricky. The
Angel is the face or the presence of God. So

(01:13:10):
when you read the presence or the face, this is
another synonym for the Angel. Another good one is the
angel is the right hand or the arm of God.
Now this is a military term, and this is actually
kind of the idea that you find with Joshua. So
if you were to go to Exodus three, it might
as well do that. Maybe do this last one here

(01:13:31):
Exodus three. This is the burning bush. A lot of
people don't And it's like, I can't tell you how
many people I've said, who've read I've heard say, who've
read verse two? I've never seen this before? How did
this get into my Bible? But Moses is at Midian
and he comes to Mount Horror of the Mountain of
God verse two Exodus three, and the Angel of the

(01:13:54):
Lord appeared to him in a flame of fire out
of the midst of the bush, like the Angel of
the Lord? Where did that come from? And he looked
and behold the bush bush was burning, It was not consumed.
And Moses said, I will turn aside to see this
great site. Why the bush is not burned when the
Lord saw, the Lord saw so that it's changed again.
It does us all the time, the Angel of the Lord.
Now it's the Lord saw that. He turned aside to see.

(01:14:17):
And then God called to him out of the bush, Moses. Moses,
he said, here I am, and he said, do not
come near. Take your sandals off your feet, for the
place of which you're standing is holy ground. And he said,
I am the God of your father, the God of Abraham,
God of Isaac, God of Jacob. We've seen that before
with the Angel. And Moses said his face again, because

(01:14:38):
just like Hagar, he was afraid to look at God.
All right. And then, of course this is where the
name gets revealed later on in what verse fourteen or
whatever it is. I am, I am who I am,
But I wanted to just point out there that that was.
This is where he said, take your sandals off your
Feetcause the place you're standing is holy ground. Go to
Joshua five last couple verses of that chapter. Here's what

(01:15:05):
we read, verse thirteen, right before they go into Jericho.
Joshua was by Jericho. He lifted up his eyes and
looked and behold a man.

Speaker 2 (01:15:14):
There we go.

Speaker 1 (01:15:15):
It's an esh, not an atom, It's a niche. Just
like in Genesis nineteen with the angels. A man was
standing before him with his drawn sword in his hand.
And Joshua went to him and said, are you for
us or for our adversaries? And he said nope. He
said that I'm not on anybody's side. You better make
sure you're on my side.

Speaker 2 (01:15:36):
Right.

Speaker 1 (01:15:36):
But this is how he identifies himself. I am the
commander of the army of the Lord. This is Lord
Sabbath oath in Martin Luther's Mighty Fortresses are God the Lord,
the commander of the hosts of Heaven. This is the
right arm Okay, this is the right hand the commander
the military term. And I'll i'll get on my soap

(01:16:00):
box on that. In a second, I have come. And
Joshua fell on his face to the earth and worshiped
and said to him, what does my Lord say to
his servant? And the commander said, don't worship me, I'm
just an angel. No, he didn't say that. He didn't
say that. He says, take off your sandals from your feet.

(01:16:21):
For the place where you're standing is holy. It's exactly
what the Angel said to Moses, because they're the same person.
I remember how we started this off, and I said,
how frustrated I get that people divorced the two gods
from in the scriptures, this is the commander of the
armies of Heaven, and he has a drawn sword, and

(01:16:44):
he is coming to destroy his enemies. And Joshua falls
on his face because he knows he bet he's he
could get in big trouble. Yeah, guys, this is Jesus
on the Sermon on the mountain. It's the person. It's
not a different person. We could do this with Moses

(01:17:04):
on Mount Sinai. When Moses goes to Mount Sinai and
you know, and you saw that, you know, see sees
his backside, he wants to see the Lord. It's the
Lord Jesus who's giving him those laws on Mount Sinai.
That means that all those six hundred plus laws come
from Jesus Christ. Now you cannot go to the Sermon

(01:17:24):
on the mount and divorce those laws and the Sermon
on the mount from this person that we've just looked
at here with Joshua and the person who comes to
Moses and gives him those laws. Yeah, there's things that
are hard to reconcile and understand, but the number one
thing place you have to start is that it's the
same person that gives both and this God does not change.

(01:17:49):
What would it do to Christianity if we grasp this thought.

Speaker 2 (01:17:52):
I've been had this image the whole time in my
head of like a movie and then you get to
the end and it's like a you know, the shocker
comes at the end of the movie, and as you
go back through time and it's all these snapshots where
like through the movie you thought it was God and
it's actually Christ's face, you know what I mean? If
you go back through all these events and it's actually Christ.

(01:18:14):
I have a question. When a Joseph is on the road,
what is it? And he said his brothers were in Dothan?
Whatuld have that been Christ as well? So he sees
a man.

Speaker 1 (01:18:28):
Could have been We'd have to look at it. But
my guess is if it's got any kind of a
God idea to it at all, that that's who it is.
You know. Stephen in his sermon I was pretty last Sunday.
It's really interesting because that sermon is all about telling

(01:18:50):
the Jews that this God does not have to be
in Israel, in this temple he made anywhere he wants to.
So he starts off with Abraham. He meets him in Mesopotamia,
and then he goes to Jacob and Joseph. He's like,
they're down in Egypt. And he goes to Moses and
he goes, well, he went over to Midian, and then
he goes and then they're in the wilderness. They're not

(01:19:10):
in Canaan there, they're outside of it. This God can
be any where he wants to, unlike these other gods.
And then you know, of course he ends with well, God,
you know, had David and Salomon build a temple, but
oh God doesn't dwell in temples, mean by hands. He
he made heaven and earth earth. Heaven is thrown on
earth his footstoll. You can be aware ever he wants.

Speaker 2 (01:19:30):
Yeah, you know, the interesting thing about what we just
read too is when you would read that, you would
instantly think Michael again, But we've absolutely because it's the God,
the commander of God's army, which is typically always identified
as Michael, right. And I was also thinking the whole
time we've been talking to you, today about the passage

(01:19:52):
in Jude which is actually referencing the Book of Enoch,
and it says the Lord comes with his what ten
thousand upon ten thousand or something like that, right, And
you know, you can understand Jude saying that, Okay, that's fine.
That would be because anytime you see Lord in the
New Testament you instantly think Jesus. That's not a problem.
I think everybody can get there.

Speaker 1 (01:20:13):
But what you have to understand is we any scholar
will identify that the Book of Enoch, if you don't
believe it was written by who was written by, will
at least admit that it was written before Christ.

Speaker 2 (01:20:26):
That everybody at least agrees on that. So one of
the things that you see in there is when you
look at it through this lens, it makes a whole
lot more sense. I thought you were going to go
with Michael disputing with Satan over Moses at all. I
didn't even think of that. That's a that's a brain
twister too.

Speaker 1 (01:20:45):
Oh well, that's a cool one because that passage where
he goes he wouldn't he wouldn't, you know, say a
blasphemous word against Satan or whatever. But he said the
Lord rebuke you. Yeah. So when you get to Zechariah three,
it's an Angel of the Lord text, and it's the
Angel of the Lord now who's contending with Satan over
Joshua the High Priest, and Satan is trying to accuse him,

(01:21:07):
and it says the Angel of the Lord said, the
Lord rebuke you. It's so cool because it's the very
same language, and people are like, well, he couldn't, Michael,
couldn't be the Lord because he says the Lord of Bukue. Well,
that's that's kind of a trencharyan heresy, hate to tell you,
because there's two lords, right. The Angel of the Lord
is the Lord, but the Father is the Lord too,

(01:21:30):
And so basically what the Angel is saying there is
look and in terms of on the council or whatever,
we're equals, we're like brothers. But the Father is the
one who is over all of us. So he rebuke you.
And of course that's all that's all true prior to
the ascension, when Jesus then gets all of his inheritance

(01:21:51):
and is then seated at the right hand, and then
he gets that power that he, you know, gave up
in whenever you know, internity pass or or when he
became a man, so that he could kind of win
it back for us as one of us.

Speaker 2 (01:22:05):
Yeah, wow, to do what I stopped you from doing,
Abraham to Isaac exactly. Yeah, to step into your place. Yeah.
The other thing I was thinking of here too, is like,
it's really not that hard to grasp the concept, because
if you really think about how we would operate, you know,
more of a medieval lord kind of perspective. But just
think of it that way. If you were my father

(01:22:28):
and I was your son, you could send me wherever
in the kingdom and they should respect me the same
as they respect you. We are both lord.

Speaker 1 (01:22:37):
Sounds like a parable that Jesus.

Speaker 2 (01:22:39):
Told exactly, And that's what it made me think of next.
And I instantly thought of that parable where they you know,
he's like, they send all the messengers, right and they
kill them. Yeah, and then they send He's like, well,
I'll send my son. They'll definitely respect him, and they
kill him too, And yeah, that made me think of
that parable.

Speaker 1 (01:22:56):
So it's just because when he comes to us as
a human, he has emptied himself of that you know,
divine prerogative or whatever.

Speaker 2 (01:23:07):
Oh wait, wait, now hang on you just like everybody's mind.
We're gonna get yelled at now.

Speaker 1 (01:23:13):
Yeah, I means too, he's he has he has humbled
himself to become a.

Speaker 2 (01:23:17):
Man, right, Doug did it. But we're going to have
him back, so you can blame us too.

Speaker 1 (01:23:23):
He's humbled himself to become a man. And so there's nothing,
like I say, I said, there's nothing upon him that
we look at him to make us long for him.
He's not. There's nothing glorious, something powerful. He's He's just
one of us. Yeah, And I actually think that there's
an analogy in heaven. Even if he is the archangel Michael,

(01:23:43):
even if he has kind of you know, maybe the
most power or whatever, he's still in that created form
that he took on because he's not eternally the Angel. Okay,
he's eternally the Son of God and before there was
anything in creation, it's father, son and spirit. However that works,

(01:24:05):
I don't. I mean, I can't understand pre creation any
more than anybody else can. Yeah, right, but the Angel
is not an eternal aspect of the Son of God.
That is something that he at creations took on, just
like he took on becoming a human being. So I
tend to think that in the heavenly realm they kind

(01:24:26):
of did the same thing that the rulers and scribes
and Romans and even his disciples did when he was
on earth. It's like, you just can't really believe that
this could possibly be God. This isn't the way I
conceive of God should be, and why wouldn't it be
that way in the heavenly realm too, You're just like.

Speaker 2 (01:24:44):
Us, Yeah, yeah, it's so amazing too, is we've had
this conversation, and even before this conversation, one of the
things that is becoming more and more clear to I
think you and I especially, that how relevant the Old
Testament is now even more than ever. You know, when
we watch what's happening in the world. I think, I

(01:25:04):
think that's another thing we start off today. And I
had written something down as far as the Christians. I've
run into this too several times where Christians have this,
you know, the Old Testament is the God of wrath
and judgment, and the New Testament is the God of
love and peace and Jesus and all this and that.
And that's such a fallacy and thinking because God doesn't change.
Neither is Christ right, I am the same tomorrow, today

(01:25:28):
and forever, right, Alpha omega and all of that. And
I think one of the things for that is they
have a there's a huge time difference between the Old
Testament and the New Testament. I think that's one of
the problems is you see, the Old Testament literally covers
thousands of years and the New Testament literally covers what, yeah, right,

(01:25:49):
like you know, very very small amount of time. You know,
if you throw a revelation in there, you're not even
at you know, one hundred years, You're like sixty, right.
And I think that's one of the problems. Do you
do you find the same thing or are there other
things that you see?

Speaker 1 (01:26:09):
Uh? Yeah, I mean there's this, there's probably several things
that are going into it. I could certainly see that.
I can just see the people are wrestling with they're
wrestling with the differences between why between Jesus in the
New Testament and Jesus and the Old Even if they can,
even if you can understand that it's the same entity,

(01:26:31):
you still have to come to grips with the fact
that he's a warrior in the Old but he doesn't
come in the Gospels as a warrior. And this is
really really vital to understand because later on in the
Letters of Paul and the Revelation, he is the divine
warrior again. Yeah, we come with the divine of the psalms.

Speaker 2 (01:26:48):
Yeah we go back to the original kind of right.

Speaker 1 (01:26:52):
Right, But during the incarnation, this is the key. It's
not that he changed, it's that his purpose in coming
was very, very, very specific, and it wasn't for all
of everyone. It was for himself. He had to come
as one born under the law. He had to come
as one who would obey all the law of Moses.

(01:27:12):
He had to come as one who would be the
high priest. He had to come as one who would
be the sacrifice. His mission was to die for our sin.
So he wasn't coming to pick up the sword because
that would destroy the mission. Will come to pick up
the sword again, second coming. It's not that he changes
at the second coming. It's that his mission, his purpose
in coming. And then of course, all you know, there's

(01:27:35):
still a lot that we have to wrestle with, you know,
the kingdom ethics. In this sermon on the Mountain. It's
not that I don't want to make it sound like
it's just completely easy, and Christians can come to differences
of opinion on some of those things, but there's some
basic things that we just get wrong. We get the
God of the Old and New Testament wrong. We don't
see him as the same person. We get the point
that the fact of his mission is completely different in

(01:27:58):
the Gospels than it was in the Old Testament, and
that it is after the Ascension. We miss that, and
then you know, we struggle with those differences, especially in
the laws and the ethics. And we don't know our
old Testaments. That's another huge thing. You just don't know
our Old Testament.

Speaker 2 (01:28:13):
Yeah, that's true, ver true.

Speaker 1 (01:28:14):
We're New Testament only Christians. I mean, how many how
many Bibles have been handed out that are of the
New Testament testimentally? Yeah, exactly, that's it. So if you
don't know your text, then how in the world can
you understand when the New Testament is actually quoting or
alluding to or echoing the Old Testament. It happens all
the time. I tell people the New Testament is the

(01:28:34):
inspired commentary of the Old Testament. So what it is?

Speaker 2 (01:28:39):
That's true, very true. You know, I had when you
were talking, I had the thought of, Okay, it is
Christ all through the Old Testiment. So he divorced Israel
when they were when God said I'm divorcing you. But
the only way to remarry them the guy had to die.
So he had to die to remarry Israel so he

(01:29:00):
could reclaim his people. And I don't think people don't
think about that. Yeah, I mean he had to die
so he could remarry him. That's the only way they
could do it.

Speaker 1 (01:29:11):
That's a wild stuff.

Speaker 2 (01:29:16):
Yeah, so that they could be reconciled with him again. Yeah, yeah,
that makes sense. Yeah. I think a lot of times too.
Doug and I want to get near take on this
as well. But man, I just see this more and
more every day. I feel like, and boy, this is
going to really talk about dropkick the Hornet's nest. I
feel like modern day Christians were very soft, and I

(01:29:37):
think a lot of times we crutch on Christ. We
hide behind Christ. And what I mean by that is
we hide behind this concept of this love at all
costs right that they take Christ in the New Testament
and kind of mangle him into something that's just not
real and where it's doing away with all these laws

(01:30:00):
right and love, love love, love, and we just accept
everybody the way they are and it's okay, you don't
have to change, right, We don't need to call out
all your sin. You already know it. All these kinds
of concepts, and I think it's just like they've taken
Christ's message in the New Testament and twisted it and
mangled it. Now they had and we hide behind it

(01:30:22):
to avoid conflict and avoid having hard discussions and hurt
feelings and all these things.

Speaker 1 (01:30:29):
I could go into so many places there get me
in as much trouble as you. But honestly, I mean honestly,
when it comes down to it, at the end of
the day, we've created a Christ in our own image.
Oh yeah, this is this is at its root. This
is a violation of the first Commandment. Yeah, and the
second commandment.

Speaker 2 (01:30:50):
Yeah. I mean, like the God we worship is us, it.

Speaker 1 (01:30:54):
Is we've created him in our image.

Speaker 2 (01:30:55):
Yeah, you're exactly about burger king Jesus.

Speaker 1 (01:30:57):
Burger king Jesus. You can have a mirror, yeah, wow,
gold paper, crown.

Speaker 2 (01:31:04):
Yeah, exactly, crown and all right, oh with jewels yes,
oh wow. Well, Doug, this has been phenomenal man. Thank
you so much for joining us again. I really appreciate you.
This was fun. Yeah, this was good. This was really good, dude,
some fantastically great information. Uh, You've inspired me to go

(01:31:24):
back and reread things with new lenses. It's funny you
have these moments where like as you as you start
to dig into God's word, you know, we just man,
I am so guilty of this. And so if anybody's
listening to my voice and you're like this, don't feel
judgment coming from my lips, because I was you. But man,
when you finally decide that you want to approach God
like a small child and just go Dad, I just

(01:31:45):
want to know who you are. I want to know
the truth. Man. When you do that and you do
it with a genuinely open heart, the things that you
will find and the truth that will be revealed to
you and the power that will come out of that
text is just incredible. You know, there is so much
in that text. We could spend the rest of our
lives reading it as intently as possible, and you will

(01:32:06):
find something new all the.

Speaker 1 (01:32:08):
Time every time. Agree.

Speaker 2 (01:32:10):
Yeah, It's just it's unbelievable. What will happen when you
start to do that. So dude, thanks so much. Man,
this was awesome. This was great. I enjoyed this.

Speaker 1 (01:32:21):
This was like I said, I mean, this is kind
of like this is what I love to do more
than I know.

Speaker 2 (01:32:25):
Yeah, we asked last time, after we after we stopped recording,
what's your passion area? And you said this was this
was your your number one jam. There are a lot
of them, but this was this was one, and you
did not disappoint sir.

Speaker 1 (01:32:37):
Inspires other people that starting them and read them and
actually look at what you're reading and just blown away.

Speaker 2 (01:32:47):
My mind is half blown and half in shame right now.
I guess I'm like, how did I not see that?
But again again, and I can't just say everybody out there, watching, listening,
we cannot overstay. Translation matters. Translation matters. So if you
have some kind of translation out there, pick yourself up
in ESV, pick yourself up a C. JB. Get one

(01:33:09):
of the books that's good, because I can tell you
I have found so many times just in my digging,
and you and I talked about this many times, how
there are some really bad translations out there. One of them,
one of my favorites, is in the Old Testament when
it talks about scapegoat because it ain't scapegoat. It's a
sasol and it makes a difference. But that's just one

(01:33:30):
small example of one small example. But Doug, thanks so
much man, We appreciate it.

Speaker 1 (01:33:35):
Thanks guys.

Speaker 2 (01:33:36):
Ye all right, well with that we will bid you
a dude until the next time on the floor. Take care,
bye those those ship

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