TVF - EP 8 - The Catskill Research Organization - Interview with Mike Luci

Cryptozoologist Mike Luci has been investigating the tri-state for a long time. Tonight, he comes on the show to share his experiences with cryptids and offers his ten cents on the topics of tonight. 

Episode Transcript

Speaker 1 (00:07):
Our world is filled with darkness that nobody can explain.
In what we face, we also encounter the work of evil.
Join us tonight as we dive into subject matter of
something wicked and macarm that inflicts our modern world. You're
listening to the Venomous Fringe.

Speaker 2 (00:28):
All right right now on the show, joined by Mike Luci. Mike,
Welcome to the show, Bizz. How are you tonight, Bud.

Speaker 3 (00:37):
Well Man, I'm finally glad you and I were able
to figure out some time to finally connect me. You know,
have like an end of conversation over this. So I
know we've known each other for a while, you know,
known each other for a while. We've talked for about
about two or three years now. So yeah, it's great
that we're finally able to do something like this.

Speaker 2 (00:53):
So I agree, and I'm also glad to be speaking
with you too, man, And I gotta be real with you.
You know, It's funny because when we were talking for
the longest time, I was always thinking, you know, we're
very close to one another. We live very close. You
live about.

Speaker 3 (01:12):
Yeah, so I'm in like so I'm in Westchester, Westchester County,
New York. It's about fifteen minutes north of Manhattan, you know,
like like all of New York City, I'm about, you know,
fifteen twenty minutes away. I'm only about yeah, like hour hour,
two hours away from like that part of Jersey where
you're at.

Speaker 2 (01:29):
So how do you like New York? Though? How is it?

Speaker 3 (01:34):
It's New York? You know what is you know, it's
New York. What you see is what you get. But
I think a lot But you know, I think a
lot of people kind of have a bit of like
a I don't want to say, yeah, I get you know,
I guess like a lopsided view with where they grew
up and everything like that.

Speaker 2 (01:51):
Yeah, I agree. I mean I'm from Jersey, so I
understand that completely. And plus, you know, in the northern
style life, you know, there's always those kind of opinions,
especially because you're so used to just having just those
kind of stereotypes. I guess you could say, you know, oh,
he's like a city guy, or you know, it's like
a trash or this and that, you know, a union
boy or stuff like that for some of my friends

(02:12):
who are into the southern region. But all all due
respect though, you know, tonight we sit down and we
talk about the spooky stuff. For some out there that's
spooky and for us, you know, as researchers, it's informative
to have two researchers from two separate states and regions
come together to sit and talk about cryptids and just

(02:34):
to kind of build an idea on what we're talking about.
But before I even talk about all that, and I figured,
I want to ask you, like anybody else, what brought
you into this? What got you here? What made you
think one day that you wanted to just go ahead
and just look up Bigfoot information, the augment information. Where

(02:54):
did all start?

Speaker 3 (02:55):
Yes? So I am so like what really? Mostly I've
always kind of had like a fascination with just anything
partanormal or anything hard related. Since I was a kid.
I was always just kind. I was always kind. I
never really thought much about like the whole Bigfoot of phenomena.

(03:17):
At first. It wasn't till like you know, it was.
It wasn't ntil I was like my mid my early
mid twenties. This is back with Finding Bigfoot. It used
to be on Netflix. So I started I started binging
the show and just the way they presented it. One
of the things that told me was okay, wow, so
people are actually people actually think that these things are

(03:41):
where they're starting and everything like that are a lot
more common and then and like you know, they're just
like a couple of there are a couple of things
they said in that show that really stuck with me,
Like how their estimated you know, their estimates at like
sixty eighty percent of actual you know, both sidings go unreported,
or just like why you know, just just how much

(04:03):
forested and inhabited the end is truly out there and
just you know, how easy it is, especially in some
of these places that are connected for something to in
theory travel that you know, while still being able to
remain undetected. So just little things like that really made me,
you know, really really made me look at the plausibility
of you know, something like a sasquatch, you know, like

(04:26):
its potential of being real, and you know, like how, yeah,
like this thing could actually live or at the very
least travel through other places outside of you know, the
Pacific Northwest or the swamps of the South or you know,
you know, like Ohio, Michigan and like those those whom
you know, like the three core areas where it's always

(04:48):
you know, where it's always been sighted. So just you know,
like realizing that plausibility and then so I started poking around.
I realized, oh wow, there's a huge YouTube community and
online community. And then I started going on like BFRO expeditions.
Then so know went you know to you know, I
started going on expeditions with other groups. And that's how

(05:10):
I you know, how I found the guys that you know,
we currently form, like the current group I'm with, you know,
the arc. So just you know, noticing those things and
just just you know, slowly getting more involved in the
community over the years is just kind of what wound
up getting to where I'm at today.

Speaker 2 (05:31):
Yeah, I mean Finding Bigfoot is a notable show. I've
watched it in the past and I like it. You know,
it's always good to take reality television or any form
of TV that focuses on a subject like Bigfoot or
any form of creature to really draw our eye. I
felt the same way with Unsolved Mysteries with Robert Stack.
I felt that way weigh in search of and I
also felt the same way when it came to the

(05:53):
mystery of Beyond Beyond, Beyond belief and whatnot, which is
perhaps one of the most ranges, the most occurring things
to me about what we study in practice. But can
you tell me about your organization, the ARC.

Speaker 3 (06:10):
Yeah, so we are the cats Gullup Leitchian Research Collective.
Right now, we just have you know, kind of like
four core members where you know, we mostly we're mostly
primarily based in the Northeast. That's where we conduct most
of our research. You know, we have a pretty bustling
Facebook group right now. We have a YouTube you know,
we have a good YouTube channel. Our main are like

(06:32):
main bread and butter right now is this We do
a week It's like a weekly pre recorded newscast. It's
called This Week in Bigfoot and it's basically just like
you know, a thirty to forty minute quick rundown of
just you know, divide up into like different segments a
few minutes long each that just kind of summarizes major
and just like any any major or noteworthy conversational, ble

(06:56):
interesting news related story that happened in the Bigfoot community.
And you know, we'll primarily focus on things that happen
in like the Reddit communities or the Facebook communities and
stuff like that. Anything we could find on YouTube, you know,
any interesting articles that could just be like tied tied to,
you know, the Bigfoot phenomena in phenomena in some ways.

(07:20):
So we've been doing that. We have a couple of
documentary type projects that where you know that we've been
working on doing one. We've been working on one about
our investigations in Central PA. Not sure when that's going
to be done. But the more intriguing one that we've
been working on is you know, it's even bit related.

(07:41):
It's about a missing person's case that happened in upstate
New York, a gentleman named Tom Messik who went missing
in November twenty fifteen. And you know, I could definitely
get into more details about that story little a little
later in the show, but like you know, if you
really delve into the details, like you know, it's a
really interesting, you know, it's a say, but really interesting,

(08:01):
intriguing story. And ever since we started doing that, you know,
ever since we started like poking around up there, you know,
filming for this thing, we really learned like a lot
about the story that makes us realize, you know, like
things really aren't necessarily weren't what they what they seem
about it. So, yeah, those pretty much are major funds
right now that are going on. You know, I still,

(08:21):
you know, I try to get out in the woods,
whether it's just like you know, with myself doing my
own thing or with some of my other fellow research
is as often as I could got out there. You know,
I was lucky to get out there a lot, a
lot this year, you know, export some bunch of different
parts of a bunch of different parts of the Northeast.
So yeah, it's kind of you you know, it's kind

(08:42):
of who we are and where we're at and where
we're going right now. Yeah, I appreciate it. I'm gonna yeah,

(09:47):
I think I think that that's really one of like
beyond big things about that show. Was like there's no
one really out there that's doing what we're doing, and
you know, we're really prouding, you know, we're really priding
ourselves in our ability to just like you cram as
much as many news many different types of news stories.
One's going around in the big community to our viewers
in you know that thirty to you know, thirty to

(10:09):
forty minute time frame, so you know, like it moves,
you know, it moves quickly, keeps people engaged, and yeah,
like that's ultimately been our goal, and so far it's
been a pretty good hit with.

Speaker 4 (10:19):
Everyone literally just literally just being able to do it,
being able to do it every week, you know, Like
it definitely definitely does get stressful at times, especially just
because I do that, Like I probably spend nights say
about it, you know, probably eight to twelve hours a

(10:42):
week just getting you know, just like getting the content ready.

Speaker 3 (10:45):
And this is on top of me working five days
a week, you know, out of the house eleven twelve
hours a day, working eight nine hours a day during
the week with my full time job. But you know,
we have you know, we pretty much have to get
one to two main segment stories. We have other section
called the rundown. We were kind of just like breezed
through anything like citing really you know, any like sitting
relators or anything like that. So you know, somethings have

(11:08):
to get you know, somethings have to get anywhere from
you know, from three to five or those and then
you have like a bunch of variables to consider, like
you know, like what if it's like a slow news week.
You know, sometimes we have to think outside the box,
outside the box and stuff like that, and we always
try to get everything written and recorded, you know, like
with at least like a couple of days left to spare,

(11:29):
you know, for you know, for our Brendan, our main
guy who came up with the idea to edit everything,
you know, you know, give us room in case you
have to like reshoot something. So definitely, you know, just
like the workload, just being able to do it every
week and you know, finding the story you know, like
finding the stories and stuff like that. I guess that's

(11:50):
probably you know, it's like the most challenging part part.
At the same time, it's also the most like exciting,
you know, like exciting part two, because you know, it's
a really good way for us to like use our
fingers and you know, just trying to you know, like
maintain a pulse of what's going you know, like what's
going on in this space.

Speaker 2 (12:13):
Sorry, my micro was off. I think one of the
most interesting challenges too, when you're trying to concept a
show like that too and you're also trying to put
together a format, is not just also trying to find
that interesting content, but to like you said, do it
every week when you're working a full time job, but

(12:33):
also to keep everybody on the same level of like, Okay,
what can we do to make the next episode better?
What can we do to make the next episode more entertaining?
What can we do to keep the audience more intrigued
with what we do? And that goes even for people
like myself who do interviews or do monologues and we
sit and we just talk for hours upon hours upon

(12:54):
things and what can we do to make the next
episode better? Like right now talking with you, obviously we're
having a fluent conversation reference to you know, cryptid work
research and yeah, it may not be on strong poor
as you know, maybe down the road, maybe have another
research or come on and talk about something, or an

(13:15):
eyewitness to talk about something. But versus sitting there and
just telling something bland or going ahead and just not
putting in the real effort to just make something entertaining
and happen. That to me is something that it comes
with nature. You know, we're we're in the social media
age period. We were both born at the pit end

(13:36):
of the end of the old world and into the
new so creating a format that has already been garnered,
but now with the use of a device that we
can carry in our pockets. We have the power to
make something that can generate viewership, that can generate subscribers,

(13:57):
even if it's sixty seconds worth, and that also works
on you know. What I'm referring to is other media
platforms like TikTok, like Instagram, like Twitter and or x
I'm sorry. So you have all those other formats where
you can just kind of navigate where I can want
to make the trend or where I can do or say.

(14:19):
But then there's also that format that comes in where
people can easily get fifteen minutes of fame because they
don't have to take a picture of their face, they
don't have to show their real face. That go ahead
and show their real personality through the virtual text. But
that's the beauty of what we live in versus what

(14:40):
we have been secluded to. For those like our grandparents
who grew up with just the beginning ages of television. Now,
imagine when we're grandparents what our grandkids are going to
be dealing with and beyond. And by that point they'll
probably be a species of bigfoot that flies, yeah.

Speaker 3 (15:01):
For sure. And like I think one of the you know,
I think one of the more improment. You know. One
of the more problement takeaways just about how technology has
you know, advanced and improved over the years and stuff
and stuff like that, Like what it what it does
in regards to us and especially you know, for people
in our generation, is that it's you know, it's make
it's made us more, you know, it gets connected us more.

(15:22):
It's made us well, you know, it's made us all
more connected with the social you know, like the social
media and the cell phones, the texting, and you know,
like every social media platform has some kind of like
messaging messaging feature kind of like you know, equivalent to
instant messaging, I ming backgro like aay, wel days and
stuff like that. And you know, obviously a lot of

(15:44):
people they bitch and moan about, you know, the downsides
of technology and stuff like that or the things that
are wrong with it, which you know they're not wrong
about that, but there's also a lot of things that
you know, there's also like a lot of good that's doing,
you know, like in different fields and indust trees and
ways and stuff like that. Like you know, like for example,
take you and me, you and I would probably have

(16:05):
never connected and became friends you know, if it wasn't
for you know, like the technology like Facebook and stuff
like that, and just you know, the conversations we've had
about you know, focused or unfocused, just on the advancements
and the roles it's playing in helping us push you know,
helping us push the ball further down this field. And
I expect as you know, like as time goes on

(16:28):
and you know, it becomes more advanced and advance and
you know, hopefully we learn more and more about this,
you know, like this field of research. I think that
I think the ways that you know, like it will
help us improve that degree of connectivity could only help,
you know, and so you know, because it helps connect
you know, like my like my like minded people, more

(16:49):
like minded people together about this stuff. And I think,
you know, like you get more of those people together,
regardless of the platform, whether it's you know, like tangibibly
or you know, technologically. I just think it's going to
play an important role in helping us push the ball
better further down this field.

Speaker 2 (17:06):
I agree about that. I think the technology will see
ourselves in a few years or so with more gizmos
that will be able to help deliver research. I do
respect the idea of creations and drones because they do
give us a good aerial shot of the forests and
we do get a good idea of what we're looking
at in mass It's helped me out as well when

(17:28):
doing research. The same will also apply to the use
of more advanced versions of old school equipment, whether it
be radios or transfrequently frequency sorry, of all of these
specific kind of audio type of devices we've used to

(17:50):
basically not just in paranormal but encrypted world and to
kind of get a visual or a hearing, sorry, a
hearing in reference to what we gather. But I want
to peck your brain at something because this is something
that we talked about very briefly about a week or
so ago in reference to AI. So yes, you know, yeah,

(18:12):
we have cryptids. We have the new social media age
where we've connected, and I'm blessed for that. You know,
you're a very great I think you're a great person,
and I'm grateful to know you might and I'm happy
that we were able to use social media. But I
have to say that it's also a dangerous tool because
of the fact that we could connect crazies upon crazies,

(18:32):
but at the same time too, now that we have
new tools that we can use for our own gain,
we could put it on social media and people would
believe it. I could tell you one thing, unless you
have the best photo manipulation software that can pinpoint what
the computer does or what the computer doesn't do, I

(18:54):
think anybody would believe that there's evidence to something. What
if someone pointed to you and said I have the
best picture of bigfoot evidence, and they show you a
bigfoot They go ahead and they sit and they say, hey, listen,
this is the best piece of bigfoot evidence because it's
one not blurrying, two you can actually see some proportion.
How would you go about that?

Speaker 3 (19:16):
Yeah, So, like that's the thing. It feels like one
of the it feels like one of the rules nowadays
when evaluating evidence is if it's too good to you know,
if it looks too good to be true, it's probably
too good to be true. I guess. So, you know,
like with that in mind, I think you just have

(19:39):
to go about trying to rule out as you know,
like every conceivable me every conceivable major possibility, you know,
figure out the org you know, just you know, figure
out as much of the backstory as possible, see how
much did they've edited themselves, you know, if possible, see
if you could run it through you know, like a
I did you know, like aid tech detection software or

(20:02):
signs of photoshop software and stuff like that. But this
is all kind of like everything I'm explaining is shedding
light to a very it's not even like an underlying
theme anymore. It's just kind of like an apparent truth
in this field where I just think the amount of
hoaxing and stuff like that and debunking out there, it's

(20:22):
pretty much done enough damage to the credibility, to the
credibility of this field and our ability to make any
potential headway in this field to the point where like
this damage is irreparable, and especially now just how much
you know we look like all these AI tools and
stuff like that out there. I just I just think

(20:47):
we've gotten to a point where an actual like photo
evidence and video evidence just isn't going to cut it
anymore if we want to make any headway, you know,
like get attention from the mainstream media, mainstream science field.
We all think the stuff deserves. I think right now,
like it's only at the point it's it's at the

(21:07):
point where we're literally gonna only have to someone's gonna
have to get like a organic sample, you know, living sample,
dead sample, a body, something like that.

Speaker 2 (21:21):
I had an associated mind say something similar a while
back when we were out just going for a hike
and we briefly talked about like how technology has gracefully
impacted not just the crypto field, but just society. But
talking about cryptos, we were meant I mentioned how like
now that like we have AI tools, because I've used

(21:41):
AI for bigfoot stuff. I've used AI for bigfoot concept art.
I've just typed in and I was completely dumbfounded by
what this generated robot can do because you could just
type in bigfoot in a forest and he's walking, and
you'll get the thing. But you'll get so well detailed.
It looks so real, almost as if it was someone

(22:03):
taking a picture but at a very good gland distance
and they were using a great lens and it was
like a cannon and you know, I look at it
like this too. When it comes to AI, we're gonna
have issues in the field where people are gonna say
that this looks real because this looks real because it's

(22:24):
just there. It has a genuine look to it. If
you're not using like photo detector or like some pot
of form of AI or detection software, or photoshop and
manipulation software that can debunk where there's error codes in
the photo being edited, then it's gonna be tough to
really identify what's real and what's not real. And you're

(22:46):
always gonna have those that are gonna call bs because
that's normal. But then let's talk about you know, like
you mentioned people who would have to find physical samples
of things like hair, a body, blood scat, you know,
a thing that are going to have to determine that
these things are still existent despite having all these photos
running around a muck that don't add up. But see,

(23:08):
that's the problem. We already have this issue already with
photographs people are already deeming to be legitimate because they
want just people to feel a legitimacy towards that. I
want to ask you a real question, though, Mike, what
is it about people in the research field that are
instant to believe anything? Do you think it has a

(23:31):
lot to do with just the fact that it's easy
to listen to what one belief is and think it's okay,
Or if it's just the fact that we all are
hypothetically still learning, and we our own can only stick
to one view or a few views because they're the

(23:52):
most plausible.

Speaker 3 (23:54):
Yeah, I think it's a couple of things. I definitely think,
you know, the final thing is said, the experienced aspect
is definitely want to you know, it's definitely a major factor.
I think some of the other things too, we got
to to consider, are.

Speaker 2 (24:10):
You know when.

Speaker 3 (24:12):
Yeah, because you know, like with the experience factor, it's like,
you know, like you have people, you like, you have
some people who go out in the woods and just
you know, every you know, every a coin they hear
falling from the ground or twig bay snap or you
know everything, like you know, every little like shift or
shuffle that they hear in the woods is Bigfoot. And
I'll admit, like I kind of showed flashes of it

(24:35):
hearing to that mentality when I first started, When I
first started doing this stuff, I was also you know,
like terrified. Well you know, you know, I used to
be like really on edge, you know, like it was
a scary thing going out in the middle of the
woods and stuff like that when I first started it. Now,
like I spent so many hours in the woods. Sometimes
it's like, you know, me and someone else. I've even

(24:56):
I've even tried doing it solo a couple of times.
But yeah, I've done so for so many hours now
that you know, like I don't exhibit you know, like
I don't have those you know, fears and reservation and
stuff like that. But and so but in so doom, though,
I'll also become a lot more familiar with the farest
sounds and stuff like that to know that every single

(25:16):
you know, every single sound of noise out there, you know,
is in Bigfoot. So you know, there's that As far
as like as far as people just like believing everything
they you know, like everything they hear and see, you know,
everything they hear and see and stuff like that, I think
in most cases, a good amount of these people, unless

(25:39):
they outright, you know, officially say it, maybe like the
word in a way that indicates, you know, that indicates
they do. But I think for the most part, a
lot of these people are just giving these you know,
alleged witnesses a platform to tell their stories and stuff
like that, and you know, they'll ultimately just leave it
up to the people who are reading these stories are

(26:00):
sitting to them to decide what they think is or
isn't real. Then, you know, for the ones who generally
are out there believing every single thing they see and
hear and stuff like that. And I think a lot
of it has to do with, you know, it's like
it's something they like. I think a lot of it
has to do more so with like them wanting this

(26:21):
to be the case then you know, actually like pragmatically
thinking that it's you know, like that does kant of
being the case? Like does that make sense?

Speaker 2 (26:33):
It does make sense. And trust me, if there's one
thing I will say about people who get spotlight, I
do think that the spotlight given to people because I
mentioned this to you when we were before to go
on the air, but I'll mention it even right now,
and I'm not afraid to mention it because it's the truth.
I do believe that there are people who have mental

(26:54):
instability that run the field and that are in charge
in certain ways. They feel this entitlement because this is
social media. I'm the sheriff in town, and the same
goes with followers. The sheep will follow the shepherd as
long as the shepherd feeds and herds them and leads them.
That's as simple as that one thing. I'll argue though,

(27:16):
and this is something I've learned as somebody who has
come closer to God. I know that there's evil that
inflicts those types and that's a problem between that person
and that demon, and they need to figure it out.
And that's something for me, even myself, as I figure

(27:37):
out my own I realize that that's something that is
frequent and it's so recurring in our field. And there
comes a point in time where, yeah, you know, we
need to still carry on to some of those old
belief systems, but there also comes a point in time
where we need to also pull the plug and say
we need to figure out where we can find a compromise,

(27:59):
because just because that one person's some big shot or
a big name doesn't give him the necessity to make
him feel like he owns it. There's no entitlement. In cryptozoology,
you're studying something that many mock because they think it's
just a bunch of bull. Because if you were to
look at me and tell okay, so physically, if you

(28:23):
were to know me and you were just sit there
and talk to me, you would never think in a
million years. I talk about bigfoots of dog men, mauthmen.
You'd probably think I talk about the mafia putting people's
feet and cement blocks and putting them down a river.
You would think that because of how I look, how
I act, how I talk with my hands, and all
that other fun bullshit. But the whole thing is is

(28:43):
that I do believe that we have things out there
that make sense to why we have weird type of
scenarios play out. One of my dream cases has always
been the infamous mouth Man a point pleasant, West Virginia.
There's been a lot of people who've been skeptical over

(29:04):
that over the years. They thought it was like a
sand hill crane because of the giant size, and they've
also thought that it was just like a basic bird
that people were misidentifying with. I do believe that there
was something more darker to that type of scenario, but
I can't sit there and tell you that, because I

(29:26):
can tell you that I've only spent about maybe ten
hours research of MATHMN documentaries, and I think out of
the four I've watched, I think I've only seen one
that made more sense, and unfortunately, you can't find it
anywhere nowadays, and that came out in two thousand and seven.
So the whole point is is that your points make

(29:47):
a lot of sense because it's based off the reality
of what not just we've all encountered and seen in
this field, but the fact that it's so easy for
some people to come on a platform to manipulate, to
tell a story, to tell people that, oh, this happened
to me, because that's our culture, because we have mental instability,
because we allow ourselves to be polluted by this negativity

(30:11):
that inflicts not just the oxygen we inhale, but also
we take the time to sit back and recognize that
we're also these very screwed up species of human that
don't respect one another for the most pettious of reason,
and it all has to do with power.

Speaker 3 (30:29):
Yeah, And like I think like you definitely make some
great points that you definitely makes some great points there.
I think like one of the other things too we
have to consider is like for a lot of people
like this, for a lot of people like this reality,
you know, like it's you know, it's almost like a
huge part of them, a huge chunk of them, you know,
Like for a lot of people, this is like, well,
they've got, and you know, like it's for some you know,

(30:53):
for a lot of people, it's just their way of
escaping reality, escaping the monotony of you know, every day life,
the harsh realities of their you know, their day to
day life, just you know, the hardships that they're dealing
with for stuff like that. And I think there's a
lot of people out there who just hate to fathom

(31:16):
the possibility that you know, life reality, that there's really
no mystery in life anymore. There's nothing unsolved out there,
Like we know what we know. Life is pretty much
limited to what's perceived by what's perceived by our senses
and what we can you know, tangibly prove and nothing else.

(31:39):
I think like this feel the highest range of stuff.
It's like an outlet, like a ray of hope for
those people out there who you know, really struggle to
grasp with, you know, the very strong possibility that you know,
like life really doesn't have that mysterious side to it anymore.
And you know, it's kind of like a form of
like excitement for people. It's kind of how people will

(32:01):
get you know, like get like their rush, you know,
you get like their rush us and stuff like that. Yeah,
so and even like you know, like even people there
there are people out there who's you know, like standards
for what to believe or super lenient or you know,
like their belief systems are all over the place. And

(32:24):
even if you challenge one aspect, like me and my
theories and stuff like that, if there's like a you know,
a piece of footage or or a photo, audio or
print or whatever that you know, I'm very adamant about
that turns out you know to be like bs or
you know, debunked as some kind of like misidentification or
something like that. Or maybe if like a certain may

(32:46):
if like a certain theory you know, or opinion I
have about some aspect of this phenomena, you know, like
it gets proven to be otherwise I'd be fine with it,
you know, because like that's ultimately what we're here to do.
But like a lot of these people, you know, like
just because you disprove or debunk just one aspect of

(33:07):
one part of that belief system, and you know, like
one of these cryptids or phenomenon and stuff like that
doesn't necessarily mean that you know, it's not one hundred
percent not real. But for some of these people, you know,
like they're well being their blue they're so fragile that
you can't challenge one like, you know, you can't challenge

(33:28):
one aspect of it because for them that's just like
too much. It's kind of like you know, like them
getting like to like it's that they'll be ably too
closer to the sun kind of. I guess that's like
a good you know, like a good analogy for that,
Like you can't you know, like you can't challenge it
or you or disagree with them about one of those

(33:49):
aspects because like it would rather you know, like just
like the possibility of it being wrong would just you
know be too much for it to you know, to
like rattle that reality of theirs. I kind of took
the long way around to scribe that, but yeah, that
makes any sense.

Speaker 2 (34:04):
It does, And that's why I want to just go
ahead and conclude on it in a way because I
want to get into other topics with you. But I
will say this about the topic you everything you said
make valid points, because it's it's the reason why I
left the field in twenty twenty one. I had enough
of just the just the people who would just sit
there and just degrade and listen to anything and think,

(34:27):
oh my god, this is truth. But I also realized
this too because we were also going through a very
heavy societal change with COVID nineteen. I also recognized that
people were completely brainwashed and when insane, you know, with
everything happening over the summer of twenty twenty into this fall,
I myself substained some additional turmoil myself, but I still

(34:47):
had screws and brain cells to still navigate, unlike many.
And that's to me the blessing I have. And that's
the reason why I'm in a much more comfortable spot,
I guess because despite some of those being negative flaughts,
I realized my problem and that's something to be very
accountable for. It took me a long time, but I

(35:08):
recognized it and that was the important part. So, you know,
going into what you mentioned too about just the whole
research aspect and just having a grasp on just trying
to recognize what we are. We're not out there to
I'm not out there. You and I both can say

(35:29):
I know you can say it, I know I can
say it. We're not out there for money, We're not
out there for fame. We're out there to find answers.
We want the truth. I don't care. I'm willing to
stay on someone's property for a week, no charge anything,
not willing to do a damn thing. I buy my
own food. I'm the one doing my own expenses just

(35:50):
to be out there to find the damn creature or
to find whatever's causing it, because that is what you
do as a researcher. I don't care if if you
can tell me how many times you sit there and
collect reports through a computer, if you're not out there
researching on the ground, I don't consider you a researcher.

(36:11):
Now me. While people can argue, oh, well, you know,
we don't go. We don't always show that you're out there. WHOA.
But maybe if you actually took a look at some
of the stuff I shoot or take pictures of, you'll
know that that's actual research. Me going out there because
I'm recovering reports, I'm talking to eyewitnesses. Some my witnesses
don't want to be talked about because there don't want

(36:33):
to feel defamation of their own VW of their own name,
because we're talking about creatures that may or may not exist,
and that's something I've spoke to a woman in South Jersey.
Her and her son have seen a dog man on
the side of the road while going off interstate and
all of a sudden, you know, they're thinking in their heads, like,
you know, is this a good is We're doing the

(36:55):
right thing here by just talking about this. And I
told him I was like, listen, I'm not gonna degrade you.
I'm concerned because I feel like, you know, I touched
on something that was too sacred for them. But I
realized in the end it was worth it because it
got off their chest about what they had seen. And
I look at the benefit too, that if you can

(37:16):
connect with an eyewitness, you can connect with someone who
has a bit more of an understanding, because there are
reports of people who see bigfoots. Mike, and I'm sure
you've had this happen to you too, where people are
so traumatized by what they see that they don't even
know how to describe how they go about their day

(37:37):
without waking up every hour of the night thinking is
this thing going to come for me?

Speaker 3 (37:42):
Yeah, it's kind of ye, it's funny you bring that
up over the so like I I think I gained
a little perspective and like what how like what that
trauma could potentially feel like, Like I didn't see anything
or anything like that or experience anything but a couple
of months though, you know, over the summer, I'm doing

(38:02):
an investigation on a I'm doing an investigation on like
a really interesting case in southern Vermont that happened about
eighty years ago to a hunter, you know, who was
found killed. But I was in the trailhead. I was
at the foot of this mountain in the in the
in the kind of in the area that took place.

(38:22):
It was called glasson Bear Mountain, and it has a
very very very haunted history, a lot of people missing
on it there, you know, have been story you know,
like a lot of weird stories come out there of
you know, like supposed hauntings, you know, barre they called
them bear men or bear like men, bigfoot sightings. You know,

(38:44):
like the whole ship bangs happened here. And that first
night I was there solo, so you know, I just
like post up in the parking lot. I was maybe
like half a mile to a mile or so away
from like the nearest house or anything like that, So
you know, I was alone out there. It's pretty remote
no cell phone service, and I remember like once it
got dark and like I can only see maybe like

(39:05):
a few feet in front of me. I'm just like
sitting in my car, you know. I had like this
brook babbling in the background, which made me think, all right,
if something wanted to like sneak up on me, you know,
it definitely could. I was super on edge, you know,
like I literally could not sit still, I couldn't settle down.
I was like sitting in my car constantly, like you know,
doing like one hundred and eighty degree surveillance with my

(39:27):
thermal camera. And I feel like I kind of tapped
into like what that fear could have felt like because
I was just constantly expecting, you know, like I was
very very on edge, you know, like I was scared,
I'll admit it. And I remember thinking to myself, like
I just remember thinking to myself like if something like
a squatch or you know, like even like even wore

(39:49):
like a dogun or something like that just like came
out of those woods, even if I just saw it
let alone, if it started like messing with me or
my car, like it kind of get like it kind
of made me gauge, like what that fear. Experiencing something
like that would like physically and mentally feel like and
it kind of gave me, you know, the kind of
gave meybe a like and appreciation in the sense of like, okay,

(40:13):
like if these people who are out there are telling
the truth and the road are traumatized about they're generally
traumatized about what they've seen, Like considering how, you know,
how on edge I am right now, like I could
totally you know, like now I have a better way
of like relating to what that must have, what that

(40:36):
must be like for them, Like you know what I'm saying.

Speaker 2 (40:40):
Oh absolutely, dude, and listen, let me tell you you know,
it takes a lot of stones to go out there
alone and to be in an area where it's heavily
like infested with activities. Let let alone be haunted or
let alone that is missing people, because it's not easy
to do solo. I've been in places where I've been

(41:00):
solo and I felt so uncomfortable, but I still get
through it. But I just feel this urged and just
maybe it's paranoia, because that's what happens to us when
we are alone.

Speaker 3 (41:09):
One hundred percent. You psych yourself out and like it's
funny too, because like it was is orman, Like I
was packing too, you know, I was packing to that night,
and like I was still super on edge.

Speaker 2 (41:21):
I'm with you, dude. I felt the same way when
I was visiting the Barons. And it reminds me of
the story of a guy. He's a veteran. He served
in Iraq along with his one buddy who was out
there fishing, and he was about maybe five miles in
deep in the forest, so he was far away from civilization. Literally,

(41:41):
the nearest house is about an hour and fifteen minutes
away to an hour and a half depending on the distance.
So he had to go ahead and he was out
there hunting with his boy, and all of a sudden
they were out camping. They spent about a few nights.
The third night there was when things got really weird.
They went ahead. They were just scared, ready to set
up for the night, and then they would just be

(42:02):
hearing these screams that were signing like a woman getting murdered,
and it was completely disarrayed. It happened every ten to
fifteen minutes and so and then the guys would come
out and they'd just you know, look around one guy
had binoculars that were night vision, which was ironic. He
went and he looked and he had seen just he

(42:24):
couldn't see anything. But they just dismissed it. And then
maybe it was probably around ten or fift ten or
eleven from what I remember, and he said, oh yeah,
he just closed the night out. They were about to
close out. They were able to go to sleep this
stuff for about an hour. All of a sudden, they
just hear the screams come closer, and it was basically
just screams mixed in with bloody murder and it was howling.

(42:47):
But the screams were coming from several different directions, so
they were they were on the opposite end of the screams,
so they were in a good distance, but they could
hear on the other ridge that there was streams coming
from all certain vicinities. By that point they got out
the one guy streams, who is it? Who is it?
All of a sudden, you see one pair of eyes,

(43:08):
amber eyeshine just come through the woodline on the far distance.
It was at that point when the guys were like,
holy crap, like this thing. There's something out there and
it's above the tree line and it's above six feet
because it's clearly staring at them. It was deep, and
it was something that I remember because it spooked him
out so bad that the one guy was busy just

(43:31):
packing certain things they needed to get packed out, and
they were just going ahead, and they were going to
go on the other side of the trail and start
heading out the other way. It was at that point
they had no other choice. They realized, Hey, I have
to get out of here because whatever this thing is,
you don't know what it is. And if this thing,

(43:53):
if there's more of them, then that to me is
pretty damn deep. So immediately about ten thirty half about
half hour or so into them leaving this trail, they
don't hear the screams as much. They can hear it
in the far distance. But the point of that story
is is that there comes a point in time where

(44:15):
your mindset just you're into fight or flight. If you're
seeing amber eyeshine, it's above seven feet tall and you're
hearing streams and sounds coming from all certain lines at
the other end, that's enough to me and my brain
to think, Okay, there's something very dangerous here that can
kill me. I have to be smart with what I
do with myself or else I'm gonna end up being

(44:37):
this person's dinner.

Speaker 3 (44:39):
Well, here's my only concern, Like I totally, totally, one
hundred percent get what you're saying with that. Here's just
my only concern with that story. What exactly about it
makes you rule out that this couldn't be something like
a mountain lion or a bobcat, which, like I know,
I mean, you know, like mountain lions like this whole thing,
Like you know, I sent you that article about a

(45:00):
week or two ago, like they do, get you know,
there there are sightings occasionally, you know in South Jersey.
I know, bobcats are known to like frequent the pine barons,
but they're super rare. But with that said, though, it
doesn't mean that, like you know, they still couldn't be there,
but like and you know, like they're known to make
sounds like that even with the eyeshine, who's to say

(45:21):
maybe it wasn't one like you know, perched up in
a tree or some or something like that. I mean,
like I don't know, like you know, the full full details,
but like what specifically about that story, me, you know,
gives you reason to believe you could rule out it
not being like a bobcat or a mountain lion or
something like that.

Speaker 2 (45:39):
Well, here's the thing, even if it was a bobcat,
there are certain sounds that are high pitch that would
trigger it to be something of more of a normal
mammal of our zoological chart. However, in this case, when
the guys were telling me the story, and this is

(45:59):
the detail that I was mentioning in a brief way,
but I was more focused on just the screaming part
of it was the fact that these from what they described,
the sounds were very deep and it was like kind
of like the one guy puts it best where it sounds.
He said, it was like almost like it was like

(46:21):
a cultish kind of seance and type scream. So my
opinion would be this. So I just so even though
that I may not say bobcat or a normal zoological animal,
let's look at all the theories. Let's just let me
just say, I'll put in the zoological chart bobcat. Let's
just say, let's just say, even with the eye shine,
maybe it was because it was dark out. It could

(46:43):
have been on a hill and it may look like
it was seven feet tall. You know so though, right,
But I'm just saying in theory though, like if it were,
if we were to let let's just say, for example,
where they were at, because I wasn't in that specific
part of the Barons where they were at, I've never
been where they were at. Where they were describing was
about what was so deep? It was like I've never

(47:05):
I've probably only been about maybe two and a half
miles deep going in the southern region. But it's also
because I've only visited the place four or five times,
let alone. Up in the northern region, it's been more
about like four or five, four to six because there's
more activity up there. And also my one associate, my
one friend in twenty sixteen had an encounter. He was

(47:26):
in by the he was in the Baron's southern and
by the Wharton State Forest, and he had seen something.
But these guys, they had just seen these things, they
had just heard the screams. And you think of the
theory of them if it were bobcat Ben's look of
the other theory. Maybe because the Pine Barons have been
always linked to colts and Satanic like rituals, ironically, and

(47:50):
it could and I'll be I'm gonna be real with you, man,
there are social paths and psycho paths out there. Oh yeah,
that scream like martyrs and they will straight up literally
sound like animals or violet or demons, and it would
be no surprise. And it would be no surprise either too,

(48:12):
because sometimes I'm convinced that I shine is reflected through
human also through the work of a moon. There was
a full moon that night too, but it was also
during the early early winter months and the accumulation was
a little different. So in theory, if it was a cult,

(48:37):
I feel like they would have been toast. The cult
would have probably done something. But then again too, I mean,
who knows the other theory possible as it could have
been a creature I would be if it would have.
If I had to pick one, though, I think it
would be a dog man because the dog men are
very very intimidating. And I will, I guess i'll I

(49:04):
want to ask you about some additional stuff in reference
to cryptids. But one of the things I will say though,
is about dog man. For you, what do you think
about the dog man creature being a flesh and blood creature.

Speaker 3 (49:20):
So with the whole dog man phenomena in general. I
think it's a very, very fascinating topic. But I'd like
to consider myself a I'm i curious. I'm a curious
and hopeful skeptic. When it comes to the dog man phenomena,
I'm one hundred percent open to it being a potentially

(49:40):
real creature. For most cryptids, I tend especially something like
you know, like the dog man, you know, like the
dogman type, if it were a real thing, I would
probably lean towards it most likely being a flesh and
blood creature. But that also stems to one of the
issues why, you know, I'm definitely more on the skeptical side,
you know, I know, like physical evidence, photo video, alleged

(50:03):
footprints and stuff like that is pretty scant. You know,
there's a good amount allegedly, a good amount of stuff
like that with the Bigfoot phenomenon, and you know, like
I listened to the big you know, like with the
Bigfoot phenomenon too, there's at least a possibility that of
you know, there being evidence of this thing in the

(50:24):
fossil record, whether it's missing, you know, especially the whole
like you know missing you know, with the whole like
missing link notion that and the you know, the possibi
ability to that. We've actually scientists think we've only uncovered
less than one percent of you know, like the full
fossil record, and but you know, like there there haven't

(50:48):
really been many There haven't really been any signals or indicators,
like nothing in the fossil record that gives us true
you know, for this reason to believe there could be
a you know, two legged you know, two legged caned
running around there. So you know, I kind of go
back and forth, like I just feel like, you know,

(51:09):
the like with my outlook, if this was a real thing,
it would have to be it would have to be
flesh and blood. But at the same time, though, yeah,
like even though reports continuing persisting about this creature, there
really isn't much you know, tangible physical evidence out there
to back it, you know, like to back up its

(51:29):
potential existence. And a lot of people in the bigfoot field,
they explain that by defaulting to you know, you know,
the supernatural phenomenon or paranormal or interdimensional extraterrestrial and stuff
like that. And I kind of like, you know, I
kind of try to ignore turn a blind eye to, like,
you know, the WU side of this my theory, and

(51:55):
it's kind of like, you know, it's you know, it's
a very very safe answer. I'll admit that my thing
is with the whole you know, this could apply to
dog Man, you know, to potentially apply to dog Man two.
I think a lot of like the supernatural stuff people
see or you know, like experience alleges tied to Bigfoot
claim is happening, you know, like how that coincides with

(52:17):
the lack of like you know, verifiable evidence we have
in this feel, I think it all stems potentially from
these creatures have some type of there's some type of
like scientific element to them that we either just don't
understand or simply haven't discovered yet, don't you know, don't
ask me exactly what it is or how it works.

(52:40):
You know, we would have figured it out by how
if I knew. That's just like my running theory or
belief whatever you want, you know, like whatever you want
to call it. That right, creatures, if real, they you know,
there's just some type of scientific element to them that
you know, we just haven't figured out yet.

Speaker 2 (53:00):
So let me ask you this one too, because here's
the thing, Like I'll talk about the skepticism with dog
men in a second. But I want to, I wanna
I ask you this one particular question in reference to it.
Would you happen to argue this whole pinpoint that the
dog man creature itself could be a misidentified sasquatch.

Speaker 3 (53:22):
Uh, yeah, hundred percent. Actually, in fact, like I wouldn't
be surprised if maybe, you know, like if you know,
like squatches are real, that could wind up being the
case for you know, like a good number of you know,
like a good number of re you know, like a
good you know, a good number of reports. I don't

(53:43):
like the Midwestern stuff like that. There's like a type
of sasquatch or you know, there's a type of sasquatch
called a gug wey, and it's supposed to be like
it's pretty much described as like, you know, like the
most you know, vicious, dangerous, aggressive, you know, like unpleasant
type of squatch too, you know, on type of squatch
to encaps or it's primarily located like the midwestern part

(54:03):
of the United States, North America. That's where a lot
of the you know, that's where a lot of the
stories come from and stuff like that. And it's you know,
like I know, like a lot of that a lot
of that area where you know, the Guggley stories come from.
It kind of overlaps with like prime time primetime dog
Man territory. I know, like a lot of stories about
the dog Man are you know, like I know, there's

(54:24):
a good amount that come out of like the eastern
and northeastern Ust, but I you know, you know, it
feels like the bulk of them kind of come out
of like you know, like the heartland, and one of
them more defined. Like one of the interesting defining features
of like this Guguy creature is that kind of has
like a you know, it's face and nose that you know,
it's more like protruding stout like almost you know, almost
like a dog like feature. That's kind of how people

(54:45):
how people describe it. So I wouldn't be surprised if
maybe you know, yeah, like miss you know, misidentified actual squatches,
But if maybe it's possible people are you know, people
couldpposed to be seeing this Guguy type creature. So you know,
you know, I thought of that. I think, you know,
I'm sure to you you get this too, like, oh,
it's possibly they just want to like a you know,

(55:07):
like a giant bear with mange or something like that,
you know, especially or you know, just like a giant
bear in general or something like that. I know there's
like some discrepancies with you with the appearances and stuff
like that, but yeah, as far as like them was identification,
I definitely think, you know, there's plausible. Yeah, you know,
like there's some potentially plausible details out there that could

(55:28):
point to it.

Speaker 2 (55:31):
You speak of the Gugwy, I want to I'll bring
I'll thought about the Gugway in a second. But to
conclude on this, you're very much so right, because the
bear with mange has been the most common people get.
People often talk about when they see this thing, it
just looks like a giant mutated bear. That's funny because

(55:54):
I know a guy named Kirk Stokes whom I remember.
He had shared all these amazing dog man videos and
photos and there was one video where you can see
a face, and she shared it on YouTube, and this
whole thing about them looking like a having a mangled face.
It's so true. A lot of the people who've told

(56:15):
me stories, stories and testimonies about them have often been
encrypted with mentioning a mangled face. Which I think is
what the scare factor is because and I think this
is where that misidentification of people thinking these are demonic
creatures because it looks like a demonic creature. It looks

(56:36):
like something we'd see in a film or like Buffy
the Vampire Slayer or Angel or Supernatural, you know, all
those shows that focus on those kind of lures and
having those kind of characters. I'd feel like that's kind
of where that kind of notion plays. But you know,
the dog Man creature, And this is gonna be My

(56:56):
final question about the Dogman fil you for now was
to be is there a reason for your skepticism because
of the fact that the name dog man because it's
like such a to me. I think for a lot
of people they don't mind the name, But then there's
that like other like twenty percent of people like me,
even that notion where it's like it kind of sounds like.

Speaker 3 (57:16):
A gimmick, not necessary, not necessarily. I honestly think like
dog Man sounds a little better. I feel like when
you kind of like describe it abstractly to people, you
probably have like a fair share of people who say,
you know, like Whover's mom by being like, oh, so

(57:37):
it's basically like a werewolf that you're describing to me.
And I know that's the term has kind of been
used like ambiguously for this creature. No, I don't know,
I don't, I don't really, I don't really think the
name really has much to do with it. You know,
it has much to do with it either, you know,
like as far as like you know, as far as
like where I stand you know, on like the belief
to skepticism, you know, like where my needle is on

(57:59):
that spectrum. Like I said, Like, you know, it's just
kind of just the overall plaus you know, just like
the plausibility of it just seems like, you know, like
there's yeah, just you know, like the lack of the
lack of like recur you know, just like the the yeah,
like there's like a lack of you know, like physical

(58:19):
evident and stuff like that, you know, and like the
big Foot field and stuff like that too. But I
feel like at least, like you know, like with like
the Bigfoot phenomena, there at least is like like stuff
that gives us like kind of like a abstract point
of reference that you just don't see with the dog
man phenomenon, and even like with the sassage, you know,
like I'm sorry to keep on comparing it to the

(58:40):
Bigfoot phenomena. I just feel like it's like, you know,
the best like marker to use. I just feel like
like a lot of data and like a lot of data,
a lot of stories and stuff like that. You know,
there's a lot of like recurring patterns, especially like you know,
especially like you know, numerical statistical data. When you break
that stuff down, there's certain like recurring patterns that seem
to eyes and and you know, like the big retictory

(59:03):
and stuff like that that to my knowledge, correct me
if I'm wrong, you know, because like you know, I
probably barely done, you know, like the research that compares
to what you've done, you don't really quite you don't
really quite see that in this phenomenon, you know, in
this particular phenomena either. But what is it we were

(59:25):
what is it we were mentioning before? I want I
wanted to me, I wanted to make a point about it.
What is it what we were talking about, like right
before you asked me.

Speaker 2 (59:33):
That question, uh, talking about the gug wey.

Speaker 3 (59:38):
Yeah, there's something. Oh yeah, So then like you know,
to your point though about what you're talking about, Like
women people were saying these things look demonic. My thing
is like, you know, like you know, I'm glad, I'm
glad you brought that up, because like it's pretty much
reiterates what as far as like you know, these things
being supernational stuff like that. It kind of like reiterates
like this like habit or you know, recurring trend that

(01:00:01):
people have been doing for you know, tens of thousands
of years. It's that whenever there's something that we don't understand,
especially if it's especially if it's something that we fear
and we don't understand it and we can't tangibly explain it,
we just automatically default to its origins or causes being
supernatural or other world. But you know, like for example,

(01:00:24):
we all thought that the bubonic plague was like demonic
or you know, like God's punishment he was inflicting on
us during you know, like the Dark Ages and everything
like that. There are people who thought like asteroids, you know,
even like the sun and the moon were like you know,
chariots of their deities being you know full you know,

(01:00:46):
like falling across the sky like a more a little
more recent example, you know, like the Salem witch trials.
You know, like all that all that hysteria people thought
was being caused by like witchcraft and cults and stuff
like that, when like now it's you know, kind of
becoming a little more apparent that you know, an explainable
amount probably might have been caused by like some kind

(01:01:09):
of like fungal infection that happened in the wheat that
year that caused like hallucinations and stuff like that, and
that was just causing these people to like trip out.
But you know, like this is information that you know,
at the time when all this stuff was happening, we
had no way of knowing because the means to get
it just simply didn't exist at that time.

Speaker 2 (01:01:31):
Yeah, I agree with that, especially considering the fact that
there's a there's a circumstance too where people sit back
and you know, the swear that never been on any
type of drug or alcohol when I see these things,
But it would be no surprise if there was something
in the oxygen. But at the same time, it's such
a wild observation that you have to really sit down
and tell someone like it might take a two day too,

(01:01:53):
maybe two or three days to a week then to
finally process it. But I mean my points simple. People
will believe what they want, but truthfully, it comes down
to understanding what we're studying. If we ourselves have the information,
we can provide for that type of source and we
can go ahead and do what we gotta do. So

(01:02:15):
be it. But I want to go ahead, and I
want to take I want to switch gears for a minute,
because we brought up the Gugwi and the gugwey to me,
is one of the most weirdest creatures. But I'm convinced
that there's been misidentification with it being a dog man.
Don't get me wrong. I mean my point in my

(01:02:38):
question about the name was more or less a reference
to the fact that dog men has been used in
pop culture and it just sounds for some goofy and
for me, I would probably name it like Sena cephalai
at best. So that's just a touch base on that.
But the gugwe gugwe is one of the more aggressive,

(01:02:59):
like the gener squaw, a very ominous creature that's kind
of like there's Bigfoot. There are the Bigfoot variants and
then there is the additional dark branch, which are more
like your aggressors, like THEI the mountain giants, and then
the Jena squaws and the Gugwiy's. I've heard the cases

(01:03:23):
of people in up in up in the upper regions
of Canada, like in the wintery regions right proy, like
the North Pole, I guess right or whatever. These Jena
squaws would come into the villages and just kill people
because they were hungry. So, you know, like, what's your

(01:03:46):
overall like theory about the gugwy? And I want to
ask you an additional question about a photograph of one,
but I'll ask you, like what's your overall view on
the Gugwi?

Speaker 3 (01:03:57):
So I think I have a feeling what photo you're
going to ask me about. As far as the actual
Gugley goes, I really don't know much about it. The
only research I did about it was for this Week
in Bigfoot, I kind of did like a segment on
the five most common types of Bigfoot. You know, you know,
the fin most common types that you know, this creature

(01:04:20):
has been divided into based on like you know, you know,
I witness descriptions and stuff like that, you know, and like,
you know, it's kind of helping me put a bit
of a belief together that I think that you know,
a squat. You know, it's possible Squatches, it's a genus.
Squatches could just feel like a genus. And you know,
like some of their appearances they branch out into like,
you know, maybe two or three different species. But I digress.

(01:04:43):
You know, whis the you know, the sgugury type could be,
you know, the scugy type could be one of but like, yeah,
aside from that, I don't know too too much else
about it. I just feel like, you know, one of
its distinctive physical appearances is the stout like appearance. I
believe it's you know, you know, it's like being around

(01:05:05):
a Native American folklore in that part of the country
that they're extremely aggressive and dangerous, and ya, it's possible
that you know, these things could be getting mistaken for
like dog you know, like these you know, the dog
man creatures and everything like that. But yeah, I guess,

(01:05:25):
like the you know, one thing I could say about
it is, I think it's possible that, you know, if
these aren't like actual dog man and stuff like that
being spotted, maybe it's possible that this could be some
you know, this could be like a species or subspecies
of bigfoot out there, which could give credence to the
you know, my potential belief that hey, maybe it's possible

(01:05:47):
that bigfoots of genus and that you know there's two
or three different you know, two three four species that
branches out into you know, one of which could be
this gogu creature.

Speaker 2 (01:06:00):
Yeah. No, And that's why I ask you, because I
do believe gugwy is as one of the misidentified big
foot types and one of more the more aggressive. I
think of a gug wee as having the same mentality
as a chimpanzee and having those kind of aggressive, more
intimidating like stances versus a bigfoot that will just have
those typical tree knock. It's those mimics, those vocalizations and

(01:06:24):
slight charges and bruffs at a person. These kind of beings, though,
I feel, would just go ahead and just look at
you and just kill you. Now. You asked you. You
mentioned before I even before we talked about you, you
mentioned your insight. You're like you thought that the photograph
was gonna mentioned what do you think the photograph is?

Speaker 3 (01:06:48):
Subots?

Speaker 2 (01:06:50):
Man, if you were on Jeopardy I would say for
a thousand, but uh yeah. And the reason why I
want to ask is because I have never really formally
asked anybody about the photograph, and I figure for someone
who is very informative about this type of content, I think,

(01:07:11):
and I think for somebody who has a good grasp
on you know, different bigfoots and whatnot in general, just
discussion what we talked about so far tonight. What is
your overall opinion on that on that photograph? Do you
think that's something right there that is of of a
gug weey? Do you think that's probably a different bigfoot variant?

(01:07:33):
And what do you think it's carrying?

Speaker 3 (01:07:36):
So I never really like one down the rabbit hole
too deeply on this photo. I've you know, I've seen
a bunch of times. I know there's there were some
like reenactment reconstructions that were done. There are actually some
people who were who managed to like find the actual
spot where it happened and you know, do like a
reenactment and everything like that, and like supposedly people were

(01:07:57):
in that same area tried to like, you know, retake
create that photo. That figure, alleged figure wasn't there in
the same photo. You know, like it definitely wasn't photoshop
or anything like that. So I'm gonna if it's not
paradi you know, if it's not just like a very
convincing instance of paradiglia, I think, yeah, I think it's

(01:08:23):
you know, you know, who's to say that whatever is
in that photo couldn't be an actual and you know,
an actual, living, breathing, living breathing thing. I just I
would feel a lot more better if we just, like,
you know, one hundred percent officially couldn't rule out paradolia
for that, because yeah, even though like that same exact

(01:08:43):
figure as it looked or as it was shaped didn't
show up in that in that recreation, I feel like
there's still a bunch of like different factors and variables contribute,
you know, the contributing to like the conditions of you
know that you just can't they just can't account or
you know, like include in that recreation of it, you know,

(01:09:05):
like the conditions of the day and stuff like that,
because with like lighting and shadowing, you know, maybe there
was like trees or debris that were up that you know,
just made it appear the way it did that or
just you know, maybe got shifted or knock down or
something like that by the time they but you know,
by the time they came back. I mean I feel
like if you can't if that same image or figure

(01:09:30):
whatever it was it was now, I mean like if
it wasn't there, like if it didn't like stand out
at you, wasn't there that kind when they came back.
I definitely think it's a good sign to your point
though about what I think it's so yeah, that's kind
of where I'm at now. But I mean, like the
only the way that bugs me though about it is

(01:09:52):
the gug wee is supposedly more of like a Midwest
thing and this was found I think up in like
Quebec or something like that. Quebec's like isn' Quebec like
eastern Canada.

Speaker 2 (01:10:03):
Or correct it was it was it was shot in Quebec,
Canada in the Seven Shoots Park Step Shoots.

Speaker 3 (01:10:11):
So that's one of the that's one of the things
that kind of one of the things that kind of
like bugs me about it. But you know, maybe if
you know, like these creatures are real, like maybe it
just shows that you know they're do you know, like
their territory, their geographical territories a lot broader and faster
than ours, or you know, maybe they're just you know,

(01:10:32):
maybe those creatures aren't aren't limited to a single area
or whatever. You know, maybe they're kind of like more
like us as far as our territory goes and everything.
To your point though about like what it was holding,
you know, like what I think could have been holding.
Though I always thought that was pretty it seems like
whenever one of these pictures of like a bigfoot or

(01:10:54):
you know, like some type like especially a big like
crypt pops up, especially like in more like in recent years,
I just feel like, in like every single one, and
like almost every single one, if at least like the
vast majority of them, so many of these, like so
many photos, people think that indition to seeing this figure,
it's also holding, you know, it's also holding something. In

(01:11:16):
most cases, people say like a baby or a juve
or a juvenile or something like that. I don't really
know what to say about that other than like we
really have to take we have to take stuff like
that on like a case by case basis because and
you know, I don't know if we'll ever really know
for sure, because you know, like the quality of like

(01:11:39):
cameras and cell phone cameras. That's come a long way,
but I really think to like to bring out those
details more clearly as far as relying on, you know,
these technologies, I still think we're kind of like waves
away and we're still out a point where when details
like that get brought in a question and there's still
this contentious you know, like even after all this time,

(01:12:01):
I still think we're like still ways away before we
could you know, like actually fit you know, like figure
figure that stuff out more and you know, and so
doing have like a better opin on that stuff, Like
I don't want to kind of ramble there. Does that
make sense?

Speaker 2 (01:12:17):
Yeah? No it does. And I mean honestly though, I
mean really it's hard to really make what makes sense
in a photograph like that that has very little investigation
and very little opinion. Because one, I remember when that
photo was making headwaves in the early two thousands or no,
I'm sorry the mid to lay two thousands, because it
was shot in two thousand and five. So when it
was shot in five and then around seven to ten,

(01:12:38):
I was just like flabbergasted because everyone was associating it
with dog Man, and then you got people who were
talking about it, Oh, it wasn't a dog man, it
was a gug wey, or that it was a mutilated
a mutated bigfoot, or it was like a different form
of bankfoot. Then I heard about a story apparently about
the fact that the dog man, let's just say it
was a dog man. This creature apparently had taken a dog,

(01:13:01):
a literal dog, off a trail and snatched away from
him from the owner when it was like walking around,
but it was on the dog was walking the other
end when this creature came through and grabbed it where
the people couldn't really see it until one guy pointed
out a monster monster and it had walked the other way.
I gotta be honest with you, I have a hard

(01:13:22):
time buying into that story. But my point is simple,
is the fact that if that did in fact happen,
I feel like that would have been on the news.
I feel like that would have been more talked about,
not just oh, a couple people on a tour guide.
There was a video recently. I don't know if you've
seen this, Mike. I figured I asked you before we

(01:13:44):
go into some of my final questions with you. There
was footage recently. I don't know where it was shot at,
but there is this footage of a tour. I don't
know if it was Asia, if it was South America,
or if it was just readly North America. But the
language it sounded European. It sounded more europe But I

(01:14:06):
could be wrong. They were these people, people that were
just like on a tour and the guy starts shooting.
If there's people shooting photographs of this giant, hairy creature
that is in the woods, and have you seen that footage?
Have you seen it?

Speaker 3 (01:14:27):
I don't think I don't think so. Like it's alsosed
have been kind of interesting that came out allows a
couple about a week or two ago. I don't think
it was that. I definitely, I definitely love to see
it though, Like, yeah, I definitely love to see it because,
like especially anything with multiple anything with multiple witnesses that

(01:14:51):
were there to see it will always like piques my interest.
So yeah, if you could get me that, I'll love
to take a look at it and then I'll you know,
give you my two cents on it afterwards, because that
sounds really interesting.

Speaker 2 (01:15:05):
Yeah, No, it's really freaky. It was one of the
more distinctive pieces of footage, it's just hard to make
out what it truly is. There was this other footage
that was apparently of This is the one I wanted
to ask you. This is. I'm pretty sure you might not.

(01:15:25):
I'm you've probably seen this one, and this is the
one I want to hear your opinion on, if you
have one. Is there is this footage of a guy
with a buddy or two at night. They were in
the woods. This guy's breathing is so I feel it's
genuine because he just sounds so freaked out and I'm one,

(01:15:47):
And it could be argued because it looked like it
was cold, because you can see like cold, you can
see their breath. But there comes a point in the film,
in the video, it's like about maybe fifty seconds in
where you see like this giant mass in the woods
and then it just starts to expose itself as it
shows itself out of this tree and you could see

(01:16:10):
eyeshine and it looks the only way I can really
describe it, it looked like an old woman, but she
looked like she was like almost like demented, like she
was crazy looking or had like a face of like
a ghost, like a ghost woman. It just looked like
it was a very creepy looking expression, but it was

(01:16:32):
reported to be a bigfoot sighting. And then they got
the one guy that goes, you know, WTF, what is it?
And he goes ahead and the camera cuts away to
it afterwards. Have you seen that footage at all, the
one at night?

Speaker 3 (01:16:48):
No, but that I don't think I have, but it
sounds terrifying.

Speaker 2 (01:16:55):
Literally, it's honestly one of the To me, this is
one of the best pieces footage. And I'm gonna tell
you why. I'm gonna send it to you, but I'm
just gonna say this. I think it's one of the
best pieces of footage because of the fact that in
that footage, the guy who's filming it, he looks he

(01:17:16):
I mean, anybody can act being afraid, but you could
hear how like genuinely, like how much he's almost about
to hyperventilate, how freaked out. So I was only convinced
that these guys were being stalked by this thing and
that they had followed it. That's why they started filming,
because they were already on the trail and they were
probably wondering what the hell is it. They were probably

(01:17:37):
thinking it was probably a bear or something that was
invading their area. So and it's also nighttime too, so
you got to think about it. So it's night so
they're out and they're filming it. Because they're filming, they
have like the night vision filter on the camera and
they just shine a light and they say, holy crap,
what is that? And that thing it looks very creepy looking,

(01:17:58):
And it freaked me out because because it was like, damn,
if that's how one looks, then I wonder how what
the older ones look like, because it has like that
gramage look like it looks like an older woman, like
one of those like god, what is it like? Uh?
You ever see like those videos of like the guy

(01:18:18):
of like the of like the body suits, and it's
like the full full body suit skin and it has
like that weight, it has like that facial type like
it looks like. And that's that's me trying to specify
it scientifically or trying to put logically without splatantly saying
that it looks like a melted Michael Jackson because that

(01:18:42):
is it literally was just one of the most creepiest
videos and I'll send it to you because I've saved
it and even people on the internet are convinced it's real.
I think it's real because I'm very much so convinced
when you see amber eyeshine like that, and it looked
like it was seven feet it looked like it was
eight feet tall, So they got something very large, and
I'm convinced.

Speaker 3 (01:19:03):
You know where it took place.

Speaker 2 (01:19:06):
I do not. I only just know that it was
shot somewhere in southern US. I don't know other than that.
I just know that where it was shot it was
a very rural southern region of the US. But yeah, no,
like I said, the reason why I asked us questions
was because it was one of the most freakiest piece

(01:19:28):
of video I've ever seen. And we were just talking
about you know, the gugwy and all the other stuff,
but we're.

Speaker 3 (01:19:36):
About seeing it thought seeing both videos though.

Speaker 2 (01:19:39):
So yeah, man, I'm excited to share it with you.
I can't wait. I'm happy that you don't know about
them because that way it gives me a good impression
you see your first time, like, holy crap, what is that?

Speaker 3 (01:19:49):
Yeah, that's excellent point.

Speaker 2 (01:19:52):
So yeah, Mike, we're gonna go ahead and we're gonna
get into kind of like the penny ultimate question of
the show. Right now, we're gonna go ahead and start
the get stuff wrapped up, but I want to just
go ahead and specify this one with your dedication to
what you do in the field. This isn't the end, obviously,

(01:20:13):
you know. I'd love to have you back on the show.
I want to ask you though, some questions in reference
to your research, and then go from there with just
an open ended question for the audience. First thing I
want to ask you is, of all the bigfoot types
that you studied, how many do you believe are out there?

Speaker 3 (01:20:37):
So that's the thing I don't officially really like, I
still can't say officially that I believe in this thing
or that this thing exists. The way I describe it,
I'm just researching the possibility. Yeah, I like, I'm just
researching based on the possibility that this creature could exist. Oh,

(01:21:00):
I feel like people are definitely seeing something, They're definitely
experiencing something out there, and right now, like the way
I angle my research, it's become less about proving a
specific and to your animal exists and more just like
trying to figure out what it is that you know

(01:21:20):
people people are seeing out there, and you know, obviously
obviously you know, like Anglertory, you know, like the way
we angle it, we're gonna use a lot of like
Bigfoot like components, you know, like we'll do a lot
of like our research investigations, which we're out in the
field like kind of under the premise that we're looking

(01:21:42):
for a living you know, breathing flesh and blood creature.
But to answer your question, to answer your question, though,
it sounds like based on like things I've heard everything
like that, it sounds like, you know you have like
this guy, I'd say maybe three possibly four different major appearances.

(01:22:05):
It seems like you know you have these, you know,
like this, you know, these gugy types. Then you know
you have others called like the wood boogers. Those seem
to be more like the swampy, almost like aquatic types.
I know, like some people say they have like fewer toes.
I even believe they had like webbed feet or something
like that as a possibility. And then you know you

(01:22:27):
have like these typical I guess they're called patty types.
You know, they look more like the traditional conventional patty
big book from the passion, gimblin film or just you know,
more like animal, you know, just more like ape like
animal ape like. And then you have others that look
more you know, I think they're kind of called like

(01:22:47):
I think like relic Coominis or something like that, like
is the name given to them. But those are your
more human and neanderthal like one. So it seems like,
you know, those are really like the four major classifications
in terms of like type, you know, like appearance type
for these creatures that you know, gun to my head,

(01:23:08):
that's kind of how I would categorize like the major ones.
But then you do have like some you know, you
have like other like I guess, like fringe types, like
you know, like the super like you know, like the
little people, the hobbit types like the ring pendeck. I know,
like there's a couple of other stories of like you know,
like smaller ones going out there. Then you have some
people out there who claim they're seeing like giants like

(01:23:31):
you know, ten fifteen twenty feet tall. You know, I
have my own scientific theories and why that may not
be the case, but nonetheless, like you know, people are
seeing them out there, So I guess like a small
subtype like that deserves acknowledgement. But yeah, I hope that
kind of answers your question as far as how i'd
like lay out the different types that could potentially be
out there.

Speaker 2 (01:23:54):
It does one hundred percent cool. I want to let
you know, though, what would you how many you know,
how many I think are out there laid on me?
I personally think without going into I could tell you
from looking at four to five different branches of variance
with the generalization of altogether, I'd have to say about

(01:24:15):
maybe fifty three. And that's not counting Jennis Squad's gugus
yetis or.

Speaker 3 (01:24:24):
Dog Man to be exact, right, Yeah, So if I mean, wow, wow, wow,
that's a few, that's a few a few dozen. Yeah, Like,
I guess this is a conversation we definitely have to,
like you know, sit down and really just so you
go like case by case.

Speaker 2 (01:24:41):
Save it for a debate.

Speaker 3 (01:24:43):
Yeah, yeah, one hundred percent. Man, that would be the
big goal. Yeah, I think that'd be really constructive and
stuff like that. It's just I think when you get
into numbers that high, I think you could I think
and again listen to like you know, downplay anyone's theories
or research or in flying that. I just think there's
a lot of room for like consolidation in a lot
of those regards because you know, like in a lot

(01:25:05):
of those cases, because I think the way I classify it,
it's more by just like physical appearances and stuff like that.
I think one of the ways. And just like you know,
tell me if this is the case for you, like
how much of how big are factors like you know,
like geographic factors and stuff like that, Like you know,
you'll have what you like, you'll you'll classify one type

(01:25:27):
of big foot is solely based on like they're like
you know, like where their geograph would be located or
being seen and stuff like that. I think you could
take those factors away and if you really just like
focus on you know, like their physical qualities and appearances
and details and stuff like that, I think it could,
like you know, I think it could like definitely make
life flood easier by being able to just like you know,

(01:25:49):
consolidate them more and like you know, group more and
like smaller amounts of you know, like amounts of groups
and stuff like that. So like I don't know, the
that'd just be my outlook and how to like, you know,
I have to very like organize a you know, a
classification system like that wud be something that many.

Speaker 2 (01:26:10):
Oh, absolutely no, And that's something that I think would
have to be a bit more detailed and emphasized on
a large scale kind of episode that it would not
even cover an hour and a half of content. It
would probably be about me three or four or five hours,
maybe six.

Speaker 3 (01:26:24):
Yeah, if I'd be like a multi partner, that would.

Speaker 2 (01:26:26):
Be a very large episode. But Mike, we're about running
out of time here and interview wise just talking because
we've we've we've talked about so much stuff tonight, man,
and you know, I've been so happy to have you
on the show. But before we go ahead and part
ways tonight, can you please go ahead and give out
some of I personally would love to hear what you

(01:26:47):
got to say about this. Two things to this. So,
the first thing is for those who are enthusiasts, for
those who are brand new to the field who listen
to tonight's show or had better yet build a better
mindset on the research thanks to our show tonight, What
is your advice to those out there who are enthusiasts

(01:27:07):
who are trying to learn these things.

Speaker 3 (01:27:11):
I'd say, just don't you know. Number one, don't believe
you know, don't believe everything you hear. Everything you hear
at first, always question everything. Just try to get out
in the field as much as you know, as much
as you could. I think the most important part just
you know, do your research. That's the only way you're
gonna just get a better understanding understanding of the stuff

(01:27:34):
and be able to tell you don't form your own
opinions on the stuff, and just figure out what you're
doing stuff like that. So yeah, i'd say, just you know,
like those would be my three main principles for any
any like new up and comers in this field.

Speaker 2 (01:27:50):
Very good points. And then Mike, can you please go
ahead and do some plugins for yourself? Can you tell
me where people can reach out to you, where people
can find your show and your organization page.

Speaker 3 (01:28:03):
Yeah, so yes, we have like two main outlets, you know,
Like you know, I have like my you know, my
personal Facebook page, but we have our Facebook group. It's
just type in arc Catskill Appalchi and Research Collective. I
think you're still in the group, right, Chris, Let's.

Speaker 2 (01:28:19):
Say yes, I am. Yeah.

Speaker 3 (01:28:21):
And then yeah, the YouTube channel. It's a ARC universal
just you know, look for the profile of you don't
call it the Monkey Hill logo. We do our show
this week in Bigfoot. It airs every Sunday around a
six fifteen pm Eastern And yeah, we're hoping in the
next like year or two to have our Takeing documentary
and the whole time Messa case. We'll definitely get into that,

(01:28:43):
you know, like a future episode, and the one about
our catalyist investigation. You know, like I'm working on an
interesting case in southern Vermont. Hope to in the next
year or two put out, you know, put out something
about that. And yeah, those are pretty much like all right,
I mean now let's are operating off of now if
anyone's interested in checking us out.

Speaker 2 (01:29:06):
And guys, I recommend you because Mike is one of
the more genuine researchers out there. I've had a great
conversations with in the past and even now, and I
really do hope you guys take a look at what
he's got cooking because it's one of the more respected
grounds of research. And Mike, I want to thank you
for coming on the show and I appreciate your time.

Speaker 3 (01:29:25):
Yeah, for sure, man, it was you know, like great conversation.
Commissation has to end now because I feel like we're
just getting started. Like I said, you know, we could
just be There's just so much, so much other stuff
we could probably be talking to right now. So you know, hope,
hope it gives me a reason. Hope it gives a
reason to bringing back and get in the future, and
you know, we could start tackling some other topics. So
I'll definitely be looking forward to that opportunity again.

Speaker 5 (01:29:48):
Likewise, thank you very much, Crawling

Speaker 1 (01:30:07):
Rivers Wood, Crown