The Viewing Room Ep 24 - Se7en- Review and Analysis - The Viewing Room

Episode Transcript
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Speaker 1 (00:06):
And now time for the viewing room with Adam and Eton.

Speaker 2 (00:22):
Welcome to the viewing room. We talk about films new
and old, local and global. Kid, can we get a
fan compilation? Okay, welcome to the viewing room. We're talking
about films new and old, local and global. Today we're
gonna be talking about seven, which was released on September
twenty second, nineteen ninety five, with a budget of thirty
million dollars.

Speaker 1 (00:43):
Adam Ethan Goldna see you. We've seen a lot of
each other.

Speaker 2 (00:50):
You do. Finigan and my dog in the studio and okay,
we're going to overlay this on on the video so
you guys can see what's going on right now. Finnigan
is currently rubbing himself on the chair. He's trying to

(01:11):
dry off. This is gonna be a long one and
producer Gary's in the studio anyways. Okay, I'm gonna send
you that and we can overlay that over that part.

Speaker 1 (01:29):
Hi, Hi, buddy.

Speaker 2 (01:31):
So Finnigan's my dog. He's a big puppy and he's
gonna be doing the episode with us today. That's not
for you, Okay, Seven, September twenty second, nineteen ninety five,
in e dash three B a WOKS. I think it's
called it's a plane crash in Alaska. Unfortunately, twenty four
people say the code again, h E B E three

(01:52):
B A WAX.

Speaker 1 (01:56):
I'm not sure what.

Speaker 2 (01:58):
Uh yeah, I'm not sure it was that plane.

Speaker 1 (02:00):
I must be an ICO code for but I don't
recognize E three B. Hey for future Adam here. The
E three B or Boeing E three century is an
American airborne early warning and control or a WOKS aircraft,
derived from the Boeing seven oh seven airliner. It provides
surveillance in all kinds of weather, command, control, and communications.
You can recognize it by its distinctive rotating radar dome

(02:22):
also called a rotodome above the uselage just behind the wings.

Speaker 2 (02:25):
Yeah, it was a plane in Alaska. Shortly after takeoff,
two of its four engines were hit by a bird strike.
Twenty four people were killed. Remember reading about this one. Now,
that's one of my biggest fears actually in flying a plane,
is a bird strike. I saw top one mine too.
It's just like, yeah, it's just such a horrible thing.
We're gonna have to get a finigan compilation. He's running

(02:47):
behind the set. Yeah, but so adorable though, So we
can put him outside if you want if it's too much.
But I think he's gonna he's gonna conk out here soon,
so that's good. So yeah, that unfortunately happened. And I
just I thought that was an interesting fact because you're
a pilot. That's one of my biggest fears when I'm
like in a plane. You as a pilot, obviously that's

(03:08):
a huge thing for you, as it was for these guys.

Speaker 1 (03:12):
I have a great bird story, almost bird strike. I
have been fortunate enough to never have a bird strike that.

Speaker 2 (03:17):
One in the car.

Speaker 1 (03:20):
Oh okay, well that's different. But yeah, I was. It
was my very first solo cross country. This is a
couple of years ago during the summer, and I am
I'm very distracted by Finnigan right now.

Speaker 2 (03:35):
There's a lot to look at.

Speaker 1 (03:36):
Yeah, it is okay. Anyway, the first solo cross country
I was going out to Corobert, which is a little
grass strip I think it's like maybe two thousand feet
long if that, and then Kindersley and then back to
Saskatoon and uh, we do what it's called an inspection pass,
so you come in little just kind of offset from

(03:56):
the runway slightly at about one hundred beat. Sure, you
just fly over the runway so you can look down,
make sure there's no you know, crazy you know, there's
no puddles and no other planes on the runway. Yeah,
you know, just making sure it's it's safe to to
land on. And so I was doing that, and then
we do it's called an overshoot, So you just you know,
full power up, go back up to circuit, come back

(04:18):
around and land.

Speaker 2 (04:19):
So like, is that kind of like what I would
touch and go would be without the touch?

Speaker 1 (04:22):
Yeah, yeah, yeah, sure yeah. And then so when I
went to do the overshoot, somebody had the genius idea
to put a whole bunch of tailing ponds right at
the end of the runway. There's like maybe a half
a dozen of them right at the end of the runway.
So you can imagine what kind of animal likes to
hang around. Yeah, it was a geese, and I don't
know what other seagulls, maybe other anyway, birds, a lot

(04:43):
of birds. And so I overshoot. So all of a sudden,
the engine, you know, just roars to life, and just
a solid wall of birds like just and then you know,
and it was like, I've never seen so many birds
in one spot in my life, and there was absolutely
no doubt in my mind that I was going to
get a bird strike. It was just like, okay, where
am I going to land? Like, there was no no

(05:04):
doubt in my mind. So I I am actually and
I probably in hindsight and I shouldn't have done this,
but I just I just like leveled off because I
know they're going way up right, So I just leveled
off and tried to like fly underneath them, and luckily
they mostly got out of the way. So I didn't
have a bird strike that day, but that was the
closest I've ever come.

Speaker 2 (05:23):
Well, they did get out of the way. Okay, nice,
that's good. I have a fun bird strike. Sorry, Okay,
first of all, that's terrifying. It was.

Speaker 1 (05:32):
It was. It was one of the scariest moments of
my flying career so far.

Speaker 2 (05:36):
Yeah, dining, Corob, that would be yeah, that would be
the worst word of it. Yeah. Strike was for me.
I was going to a film shoots. I was driving
on the freeway with Reid. We're going ninety whatever. We're
on Circle going ninety. You were going one hundred going whatever.

(05:56):
Like ninety seven whatever. We were on the overpass, the
bridge whatever, right by the cabalas you know, like going
on our way to warm.

Speaker 1 (06:03):
Road Circle bridge.

Speaker 2 (06:04):
Uh yeah, and and uh there's this bird just flying
towards us, like out of nowhere and just bam right
into the windshield loud bang. We watched it ping off.
It was like like it was crazy, like constantly paralyzed.
And we watched it ping off and like we zoomed
by right whatever, and that was just the end of it.
No crack in my windshield, nothing, but it like scared

(06:27):
the crap out of us because we saw it happen too,
and we saw it coming and we were like, you
don't even you see birds all the time, like find
closely vehicle, and it's like you just say, it's like
oh well when it comes straight towards you and it's
like bom right, it's just crazy.

Speaker 1 (06:42):
My buddy had a his fiance had a turkey go
through her windshield.

Speaker 2 (06:47):
Oh my gosh, So can we put that on those Well,
it's gonna be just an overlay central yeah, but like
a turkey's a big bird, so yeah, yeah, yeah. I
saw I saw like a semi driver that had something
like that, and and it's just the video of the windshield.
He's covered in glass and he pans over and there's
like a big turkey in the other thing and there's

(07:07):
like blood everywhere. Whatever. Okay, speaking of blood, this movie
gross three and twenty seven point three US million dollars.

Speaker 1 (07:20):
Have been a much better lead into the Shining. Yes, yes,
there is a lot of blood in this movie.

Speaker 2 (07:25):
Though this movie was did gross a lot.

Speaker 1 (07:29):
Sorry say the budget again, I already forgotten high thirty million.

Speaker 2 (07:33):
And I read that Brad Pitt made seven million, So
I don't know if that's what he was paid up
front to do this movie. I would assume so, because
from what it sounds like, Brad Pitt helped David Fincher
cast in a lot of ways, because Brad Pitt really
wanted Kevin Spacey to come on. So again, this kind
of goes back to a discussion that we had about
a month ago. I forgot which episode it was. We

(07:54):
were talking about how actors nowadays maybe have less say
than they used to, Like, how actors can have a
lot of power and prominent actors can kind of like
influence directors and stuff and get their way with the studios,
and now I think the studios are super massive that
there is you know what I mean that there might
be a little bit of a power shift. Now we're

(08:15):
not one hundred percent show on this, but my theory
is that like an actor like Brad Pitt in the
nineties or Marlon Brando in the seventies or something like that,
right could have been a powerhouse for a studio and
so they were like, Okay, we're gonna listen to what
this guy says. Whereas now even if you're a big
actor that comes in, name a big actor, anyone Brad Pitt,

(08:40):
nowadays Chris Pratt. I'm sure Chris Pratt can go in
and tell the studio stuff and then you're gonna want
to listen to him. But I also imagine that for
a lot of stuff, the studio can also just recast
Chris Prat, absolutely, and I think I think it's more
competitive in that way, and I think that's maybe why
Brad Pitt was paid more. Cast Brad Pitt. We talked
about Kevin Spacey who plays John Doe, and Morgan Freeman

(09:04):
who plays Active summerset.

Speaker 1 (09:08):
Is this the thirtieth anniversary, excuse me, thirtieth anniversary.

Speaker 2 (09:11):
This would be yet nineteen ninety five, so I guess. So, yeah,
so that's cool. We saw it in theaters last night.

Speaker 1 (09:19):
Yeah, Cineplex had their dip Fincher thirtieth anniversary thing or whatever.

Speaker 2 (09:23):
Well, yeah, they're doing like a Fincher Files movie thing.
So they're playing the social network, they're playing the Girl
with the Dragon tattoo, they're playing the game whatever, they're
playing seven Social Network. I think I said, oh, yeah, awesome.

Speaker 1 (09:37):
Yeah, Yeah, it's a neat it's a neat idea, and
it's a good way to get people kind of interested
in it. I mean, there's not a lot of movies
that I want to go see live, like new movies
that I want to go see right now, yeah, you know,
and and so kind of retelling some of those old
classics and it's like, call this what Colisseum does.

Speaker 2 (09:55):
But yeah, well I should say in January. January is
kind of a time for studios to release all the
really shitty films. It's known as dump month in Hollywood. January,
all the stuff that maybe wasn't fully finished last year
because they didn't have the time, resources, whatever, They're gonna
release December. That way, by the next quarterly whatever, it's

(10:17):
dirty laundry at that point. Yeah, So I do think
January is a good time to do re releases in
thirtieth anniversaries because it's a good way to get people
back into the theaters because like say, Night Swim. When
Night Swim came out last year, Blumbhouse, not a lot
of people are gonna see it because the reviews were
so bad, right, and they didn't have any interest, and

(10:37):
I'm sure it made top ten worst movies of the
year for a lot of people. But if they had
the opportunity, they want to go to the theater, but
they don't want to see Nightswim. Okay, well now they
can go see the like seven, right, Yeah, And I
think that's a good way, like you said, to get
people into the theater when there's not necessarily like a
big blockbuster or something that's playing, right, Like I know
it's just still playing Gladiator too, But I think at

(10:58):
that point, like if you haven't seen GLADIAIR two already,
it's been out for two months, right, So I don't
think a lot of people were really going.

Speaker 3 (11:05):
There, you know whatever, Sorry, yeah, Okay, I.

Speaker 1 (11:25):
Just like because on the camera, all you can see
is just one of the string, like just going crazy.

Speaker 2 (11:29):
He's rolling around kicking a light. Ah. Okay, okay, uh,
do you have anything else say? Preliminary thoughts about this movie.

Speaker 1 (11:44):
Yeah, this is my first time seeing it m H.
And I had read like a brief synopsis, not like
not synopsis, but like the you know, you know when
they just give you like you know, this is the
kind of the opening to it. You don't know everything
about it, sure, And I read that so I kind

(12:04):
of knew it. I knew kind of the outline of it.
But it was, as I said, when it was done,
that's a mind fuck like that that like that movie.
It just I don't know, it's it's it's a really
to me. The biggest thing with it that I noticed
with it was how they can foreshadow without you realizing

(12:27):
it's foreshadowing, Like when when at the very like I
didn't know what was coming until the very end, right
when that final scene out there with all the power
girders and he shoots him, and it's like all of
a sudden, like in that moment it clicks all of
the foreshadowing about them talking about, oh have you ever
drawn and fired your gun? You know, he's he and
then Morgan Freeman's character Detective Somerset talking about how like,

(12:50):
oh he he he, he can't control his motions, he
let his lets his emotions control him. Basically, all these
things all of a sudden they click into place. Oh
like that was that wasn't just idle talk. That was important,
you know. So I think that's one of the biggest things.
And the other word that I was thinking about using
to describe this is precision, Like he's just so precise,

(13:11):
Like Fincher is so precise with the way he films this,
which is good, but it also kind of has some
drawbacks in my opinion, because it's impossible to be so
precise the entire time unless you have an unlimited budget
and unlimited time mm hmm. And I feel like it
almost does it a disservice in the end, because when

(13:32):
it's so precise for the entire time and then there's
one or two scenes that are slightly less precise, they
stand out a lot more, you know, And so it's
it's amazing that it's so precise, but it also makes
the less precise stuff more noticeable, and it makes gives
me the mistakes more noticeable sure, So, I don't know,
that's kind of my that's kind of my thoughts on this.

Speaker 2 (13:54):
Yeah, and that's might be a good way to lead
into a synopsis. Yeah. Actually, we were talking about grossing
three hundred and twenty seven point three million dollars, which
made it, get ready for this, the seventh highest grossing
film of nineteen ninety five.

Speaker 1 (14:11):
Wasn't it the eighth?

Speaker 2 (14:13):
No, it was the seventh.

Speaker 1 (14:14):
Thought it was the eighth. I thought seven was the eighth.

Speaker 2 (14:17):
Eighth, It's the eighth scariest film of all time.

Speaker 1 (14:20):
That's what it is.

Speaker 2 (14:20):
According according to Entertainment Weekly, it's the eighth scariest film
of all time. Huge missed opportunity to just put it
at the seventh one and have seven as a seventh one.

Speaker 1 (14:30):
But it's almost funnier to say seven is the eighth.

Speaker 2 (14:32):
Yes, but this seven was the seventh highest grossing film
of nineteen ninety five.

Speaker 1 (14:40):
That that's actually had a pretty good year in ninety five.

Speaker 2 (14:43):
Then Okay, I'm gonna throw out three films and you're
gonna tell me which one you think has the highest
as we're gonna play the little game, you're gonna guess
which film was number one. Number two and didn't make
the list of four in what category for four highest

(15:05):
grossing fives nineteen nineteen ninety five. Okay, so I'm just
gonna get up a list of films. I'm gonna give
you three films. Okay. Two of them are gonna be
in the top in the top three, I guess whatever.
So one and two okay, and one of them is
going to be just like a random nineteen ninety five.

Speaker 1 (15:26):
So wait, I'm trying to guess which one is one,
which one is two, and which one isn't on the list?

Speaker 2 (15:31):
Yes, which one isn't on the list of top five
grossing movies of all tip top five of nineteen ninety five?

Speaker 1 (15:40):
Yeah, sure, sure, okay, Hey buddy, right.

Speaker 2 (15:48):
Dang it just shut off? Sorry, Okay, okay, So the
first film okay, the beloved Toy Story Okay, I won't

(16:11):
tell you how much it grossed. Toy Story Okay, Okay,
give your mind seven, number seven, yep. Okay, die Hard
with a Vengeance okay, okay, So sequel to die Hard, okay.

Speaker 1 (16:26):
The original Toy Story. In the sequel to die Hard
and Jumanji, I need and Jumanji is the one with
Rob Williams right, like, yes, original.

Speaker 2 (16:33):
Original, so classic, original enough that it had a recreation
with a sequel to that recreation a couple of years ago.
In the box office. So you're gonna tell me which
is one, which is two, and which isn't. In the
top five grossing movies of nineteen ninety five, we have
Toy Story, die Hard with a Vengeance, Jumanji.

Speaker 1 (16:55):
Okay, I'm gonna say die Hard with a Vengeance is
the second. I'm gonna go with. Toy Story is number one,
and Jumunji wasn't. Okay, I'm but if I'm wrong, it's
gonna be die Hard was I wasn't on the list.
In Jumanchi was number.

Speaker 2 (17:14):
Twoay, I'll give you one chance. I'll give you I'll
give you one chance. You can you can stick with
your current answers, okay, or you can you can like
three two one it, I'll lock it in. We'll lock
it in. Okay, We're locked in. Okay. Jumanji didn't make
the list. Correct, It's number ten, grossing two hundred and
sixty million. Yeah, okay, Toy Story is number two. Oh,

(17:38):
I had right with three hundred and sixty three million. Dollars.
Die Hard with a Vengeance is the number one grossing
movie of nineteen ninety five twentieth Century Fox three hundred
and sixty six point one million dollars. Die Hard with
a Vengeance gross forty million dollars more than seven Oh

(18:02):
my god, I just thought that was so funny. I
was like to turn that into a game. And you
don't want to know what the budget with Diehard was
like with a Vengeance? What it had a ninety million
dollar budget? What kind of Bruce fucking Willis movie as
a ninety million dollar budget?

Speaker 1 (18:21):
Man, not anymore. I can tell you that.

Speaker 2 (18:24):
Oh that's it's kind of sad.

Speaker 1 (18:27):
Yeah, it is, actually Willis. I do feel bad for him.

Speaker 2 (18:32):
Yeah, the dementia, Yeah, that's tough. What are your thoughts
on Diard with a Vengeance being the number one gross
highest person.

Speaker 1 (18:40):
It's another I think it's another case of like sequel
what should I call it? Sequel bias? Like if the
first one was good, the sequel must be good too,
you know, hmm. Probably everybody liked Diehard one and then
they went to went to see Diehard too.

Speaker 2 (18:58):
He's Dard with a Vengeance, Diehard two or I heard.

Speaker 1 (19:00):
Three I don't remember one of them. It's still sequel bias, right.

Speaker 2 (19:05):
Yeah, it's a sequel to Yeah, No, it's Diehard three.
That's Diehard three, dude. Okay, so so Diehard three was
the Ice Crison film of nineteen ninety five. So there
you go, pretty crazy. I'll read a synopsis of seven,
given that we're now probably about twenty minutes, and then

(19:27):
we haven't talked about the movie very much, not very much,
all right. Seven film synopsis. When retiring police detective William
Somerset played by Morgan Freeman, sackles a final case with
the aid of newly transferred David Mills played by Brad Pitt,
they discover a number of elaborate and grizzly murders. They
soon realize that they are dealing with a serial killer

(19:48):
played by Kevin Spacey Spoiler, who was targeting people he
thinks represents one of the Seven Deadly Sins. Somerset's also
befriends Mill's wife, Tracy played by Gwyneth Paltrow, who was
pregnant and afraid to raise her child in the crime
riddled city. So we have some interesting characters. We have

(20:10):
Morgan Freeman, who is a little bit jaded from his
years as a detective. We have Rad Pitt's character who
Detective Mills, who comes in and he's just been transferred.
He's he's not only abrasive, he's kind of quick with it.
He's a little bit prideful. And I'm using the word
prideful carefully because I'm going to bring up a few points.

(20:34):
And yeah, he's quick to anger. He's he's kind of
hot headed, and he's very impulsive in a way. Morgan
Freeman might be a little bit more or less what
are you? What are you? What's the word I'm looking for?
He's jaded, but like he's kind of a downer at
some point. It's gonna be compared. See this is adorable,

(20:59):
now go through here. But I'm just just keep in
mind I think Brad Pitt's character is very prideful throughout
this movie. Okay, okay, anyways, we start off by by
learning that Detective Summer Set by Morgan Freeman, is gonna

(21:19):
be retiring. Uh, he's been in the force a long
time now. He's ready to retire experience the world. And
this is so distracting, so cute Finnegan's standing up with
us for you for your audio listeners. And he's gonna
be doing this. You have to make this into a shortness.

Speaker 4 (21:41):
What we're talking about, you're uh, we're going through a
plot summary, a plot Summery.

Speaker 2 (21:50):
There we go. So we know Summerset's gonna be retiring.
Detective Mills gets transferred played by Brad Pitt, and uh,
he's gonna be joining this case, Somerset's last case. And
so by the end of the week, Summerset's going to
be gone and Brad Pitt's going to be digging his
place as the detective. Right now, Mills is kind of

(22:17):
that's so cute, that's so cute. That has to be
a short This is the last time he's coming here.

(22:39):
Do you wanted to sit in your lap for the episode?
All right, well you officially destroyed the SETI again tangled.

Speaker 1 (22:58):
Oh okay, this is gonna be one of our most
chaotic episodes yet.

Speaker 2 (23:06):
Yeah, okay, so Mills is kind of shadowing Summerset and
and we're learning that, you know, wherever they are. I don't
think it's specified in the movie wherever they are, but yeah,
it was.

Speaker 1 (23:20):
One thing is I was trying to figure out where
they were, and they never never give us any clues,
like not even like on the taxi does it say
anything like It's just it looks like it could.

Speaker 2 (23:29):
Be like a New York or Boston something like that,
but it's it is never specified. Now it is intentional.
But where wherever they they are, I guess Morgan Freeman
is like, Hey, by the way, I don't know why
you'd want to come here. Uh, this is kind of
a terrible place to be, that people suck, and I

(23:50):
think that's kind of open to audience interpretation. So we
kind of learned that jaded summer sets it's gonna be
a tough one. Dude. We've learned that Somerset is jaded
and doesn't want to keep using that word, but he
doesn't know why Brad Pitt has decided to kind of

(24:12):
come here willingly. But you know, I think Brad Pitt
is kind of like wanting to move up and I
think you see just as as an avenue, and so
he's going to pursue it. Right now, they go to
the scene of this this homicide and they're trying to
determine it's a homicide, and they find this big guy

(24:33):
kind of on a chair, faced down in like a
bull of spaghetti and uh oh. They don't know really
what to think here. They're not sure it's a homicide.
At first, looks like this guy may have just like
passed out while he was eating, But then they realize
his hands and feet are tied, and they learned from

(24:53):
the coroner that someone must have forced him to eat
to death with a gun to his head. This man
aid himself to death and then kind of burst. This
is kind of how they describe it metaphorically. I'm sure
he's probably just looking for a mouse or something. Now,

(25:14):
they don't see any kind of like link to any
serial killer or anything. This this might just be a
one off, but they want to keep investigating, even though
the like the chief of police or whoever, doesn't really
want to have them pursue it anywhere because he thinks that,
you know whatever, it's a waste of time, especially since

(25:35):
Somerset's about to be retired. Somerset doesn't want this to
be his last case because this is just like awful
right now. The next day we find out another person
has been murdered. A lawyer, one of the defense lawyers,
a prominent one at that, and he was forced to

(25:55):
it looks like he was forced to cut himself open,
and on the ground is written greed. Now this kind
of bound of flesh on the uh scale the scale.
So they're kind of starting to realize a trend here,
not actually not quite yet. They noticed greed's written on
the on the floor. So so Mills is kind of

(26:21):
investigating this case, trying to figure out what's happening, trying
to figure out if maybe the wife of this lawyer
knows anything. And and Somerset goes back to the first
location to keep looking around, and he finds behind the
fridge a note and written in Greece on the wall
the word gluttony. So he's determined that, oh, these must

(26:46):
be linked because there's seven deadly sins, and breed and
gluttony are two of them. Okay, we have pride, wrath, lusted, gluttony.
Help me out. I always get stuck on five. Uh oh, bashful,

(27:07):
dawn and thorin.

Speaker 1 (27:22):
Okay, let's just google them.

Speaker 2 (27:24):
I don't top of my head either. Wrath, luttony, pride, oh, sloth.

Speaker 1 (27:34):
Okay, lust, gluttony, pride, sloth, wrath, greed, and envy envy.

Speaker 2 (27:39):
That's when I was missing. Yeah, cool, maybe not so cool.
So Swilm starts to take kind of a religious turn
almost where we're talking about sins and stuff like that
and maybe righteousness in a way where our bad guy
seems to target people who represent one of these seven

(28:00):
deadly sins. As we go on, we find a victim
whose sloth uh. And this person has been I guess
tied to a bed for well over a year, it
looks like, and and his representation exactly exactly year to
the day.

Speaker 1 (28:15):
Yeah, it was a year to the day.

Speaker 2 (28:17):
Yeah. Yeah, So unfortunately the sot victim now interesting. The
sloth victim actually took fourteen hours of makeup to do,
very interesting. And Michael McKay, who played the sloth victim,
was ninety six pounds at his audition. So David Fincher
wants someone who's about ninety pounds to play the role
because he thought it would represent them good. And so

(28:38):
he joked to Michael McKay, lose another of six pounds
and you have the part, right, just like as a
joke he had detory Land and the part whatever. Michael
McKay lost that six pounds and during filming he was
exactly ninety pounds for that scene tied to the bed
and fourteen hours of makeup late.

Speaker 1 (28:52):
That's a that's a pretty creepy scene. Like, that's a yes,
it is a pretty creepy it first, you know, one
of it's it's it's a testament to the detail that
Finger puts in, Like because when they first shot that scene,
I'm like, how do you guys not smell that? But
then you look up and you realize, oh, those are
all air fresheners on the ceiling. There's like hundreds of
air fresheners, which is an interesting little detail, you know.

Speaker 2 (29:15):
And and my theory for that is, as a murderer
or someone like that, you would want that to happen
so the body doesn't smell through. So I think it's
actually a bad I think it's a bad thing that
when they go into the room there's no air fresheners

(29:35):
and it really reeks and stuff like that, because that smell.
There's obviously there has to be a vent in that room,
in a window. There has to be some way that
that smell would waft up or kind of through the
wall whatever. Yeah, but it would it would linger to
the point where I'm sure if you asked I've never
smelled a dead body, but you hear stories and stuff,
and it's like a detective can walk into a room

(29:56):
without see anything. I know there's a dead body just
because of the smell. And I'm sure most people who
work as a first responder something can tell you that
exact thing, because it's not it's a very distinct smell
that's not easy to miss.

Speaker 1 (30:09):
I mean, even when you smell dead animals like sure,
you know, or even dead fish.

Speaker 2 (30:14):
Dead fish a strong one. No, I don't know how
much fish smells like.

Speaker 1 (30:19):
No, but that's the idea that dead things they have
they have a strong smell.

Speaker 2 (30:22):
Yeah, and so and so I think it's a bad
move to go through all that work and not put
air fresheners in the room with the person. Why wouldn't you,
I don't think so? Also and sorry, if there was
in that same room with him, like and not just
like in the hallway, like I wouldn't. I don't like
how they were gagging the second they went into that room,

(30:45):
because I would think that logic they would it would
have it had wafted through anyways. Now, maybe it was
just enough to not waff through. But I don't want
to believe that if it's been exactly a year, because
a year of a rotting body, you.

Speaker 1 (30:59):
Know, even though they still alive, Yeah, it's still it's.

Speaker 2 (31:01):
Still a running body, right, Yeah, I don't know.

Speaker 1 (31:04):
I mean, but see, I also feel bad like we're
nitpicking something like this. But at the same time, like
I said in the opening, he's so perfect that that
you when there is little things like this, they seem bigger, right.

Speaker 2 (31:15):
And one of the things is too they say multiple
times about how John Doe is super meticulous, and I
think that's a way of kind of negating some plot
holes where and I think it creates more Like we
talk about how he found Mills's wife, and in my opinion,
that's probably something that was a last minute resort.

Speaker 1 (31:34):
After right, because he says he's going to move the
timeline up, right, So I think that was That was
one thing question that I kind of had because at
the end, I'm like, well, wait a minute, He's been
planning this obviously for like a year, because he had
this sloth guy alive or in captivity for.

Speaker 2 (31:49):
A year, so Mills has only been there.

Speaker 1 (31:51):
But Mills has only been there for a few days,
So how does that make sense. But I think, like
you say, that was a moving the plot up.

Speaker 2 (31:58):
You know, Yeah, I think I think that itself as
a plot hole. But I think it's fixed by just
saying like, oh, he's super meticulous and he must have
just wanted to do this and and and whatever.

Speaker 1 (32:08):
Yeah, Like, I mean, a lot are quite meticulous, like
when you when you read about some of them, and
like especially the successful ones, successful is you know, in
their in their craft, so to speak, like they are
very meticulous and very like perfections almost o c D.
A lot of them.

Speaker 2 (32:27):
There's a lot of them though, that aren't perfectionist at all.
It's like I think of Dahmer, and they just get
away for so long because of different prejudice, like living
in a gay neighborhood or like being a homosexual. The
cops who didn't want to deal with that are very
much not one hundred like percent of the way to blame.
But I think a lot of especially the victims and

(32:48):
their their families, blame the policing system for why Dahmer
wasn't caught for so long, right, And I think that
is a big part of it, right, And so I
think there's an element of meticulousness to Jundo, But I
think there's a bit of impulse because ah, he changed
his plan after he's been planning for a whole year,
and so like.

Speaker 1 (33:08):
I think also like I think he can like you know,
the very first scene that we see is uh, Detective
Somerset going to the scene of a guy who's been
presumably murdered by his wife. That's what it seems like,
and it just shows how he wants to investigate it
further and they're like, Nope, this is an open and shutcase.

(33:31):
You know, you're reading too much into it. And I
think that also plays into it, where like he really
wants to dig in and find the truth, and he's
got a lot of departmental pressure to just close the
case quickly, which yeah, which which also kind of helps
John Doe in this case as well, because they maybe

(33:53):
can't by you know, by the time they by the
by murder two or three, they're really into it, like
you know, and and they're there working at full time, but.

Speaker 2 (34:01):
Well, and the press lines up so quickly for this
to have all the details enough to make the John
Doe case like a big media thing, I would say
realistically though, with the murders, they wouldn't get that much
media attention at.

Speaker 1 (34:15):
First they would, right, it would be more of a
progressive the ones like the the the the gluttony victim.
Sure he wouldn't. The lawyer might get more because he
is a prominent defense attorney, and then by the third
or fourth they might be noticing anything. But also we
have to assume this is a New york Er, a

(34:36):
Chicago or Boston or something where that is pretty common.
Like just a random murder is not.

Speaker 2 (34:42):
Like you, I feel like with the sloth guy, like
like that's not like a huge press issue thing like.

Speaker 1 (34:51):
And they wouldn't give any details on it either.

Speaker 2 (34:53):
Like and like the autopsy for the gluttony guy, Like sure,
maybe the autopsy would happen pretty quick. But again, like
I feel like a lot of that stuff wouldn't be
like releasing media wise. But I guess that's not fair
because I don't think a lot of the stuff was
talked about anyways. So media stuff. It's just they had
a lot of cameras and journalists and stuff coming through
when they had Ah. I was just gonna say, kaisers

(35:14):
are so same, but John Doe different, Kevin Spacey character.
They have John Doe coming through as one of like
the journalists or reporters or whatever. But you know, like I, yeah, whatever,
I'm not gonna pick about like closed crime scenes or
whatever like that because it's just it's whatever. It's not

(35:35):
worth it.

Speaker 1 (35:35):
But it's a good point you make though, that these
that autopsies do, especially things like some of those investigations
are so slow, Like it's it's not necessarily the police
is swall or the detective's fault, it's just the system
takes a long time to get anywhere.

Speaker 2 (35:52):
There's a there's a constant backlog. You have to be
careful because if you wrongly convict or or falsify evidence
or if you macformation, you.

Speaker 1 (36:01):
Can't right like like when he follows that or he
gets information from his FBI buddy, Like you know, if
you do something like that, like you that's not admissible.
You can't act as he says, you can't act on that.

Speaker 2 (36:13):
Like now, interesting enough, that wasn't legal for the government
to do until two thousand and one, So this movie
is ninety five. In two thousand and one, the government
actually made it legal to officially to use library records.

Speaker 1 (36:30):
Oh right, okay, evidence I thought you want, like they
can just enter your home. And I'm like, no, that
that's that's.

Speaker 2 (36:35):
Yeah, yeah, yeah, So that's what I read on IMDb.
So take that. I mean, maybe a great soult the
Wikipedia of the film world. Maybe, but it had a
lot of likes, so that must make it.

Speaker 1 (36:46):
I must make it too, right reddit post had one
hundred thousand upots, Then it must it must it.

Speaker 2 (36:50):
Must be true.

Speaker 1 (36:50):
Right, he's so cute.

Speaker 2 (36:54):
Hey, So we we learn more about these victims and stuff.
We find the victim of Pride. She's kind of like
a model, and and we kind of where do we
find her painting her picture? Is it at the lawyer's place?
Is that where they find the picture of her?

Speaker 1 (37:13):
No, they don't find a picture of her.

Speaker 2 (37:15):
Yes, in one of the yes in the sloth victim,
they pull out a picture, go through the photos and
there's a picture of a random lady, and that's how
they look. So they do end up finding the Pride lady.
H and and basically she's mutilated. She was given the
choice to either kill herself and end her suffering or

(37:40):
be mutilated. Ah and and like ugly for the rest
of her life, let's survive, and she.

Speaker 1 (37:47):
Chose phone was taped to one hand and sleeping pills
is taped to the other hand.

Speaker 2 (37:51):
Yes, and she chose to kill herself and and yeah,
so again interesting choice. Then we see the victim of lust.
Basically it was a guy who went to a prostitute
and he was forced to have intercourse with like a
knife thing. Yeah, that didn't go well for her or him.

Speaker 1 (38:15):
I mean, that's one thing that the guy who played
that act, so that, Yeah, customer, I guess you would say,
like he did a phenomenon.

Speaker 2 (38:23):
Best acting in this whole movie. There's any bad acting.
So I looked it up. The interrogation scene is, in
my opinion, the best scene in this whole movie. I mean,
when Morgan Freeman comes out and he's in the middle
of Detective office, he goes or seven deadly sins and
and whatever, and he goes like what does he says?
Like gluttony and what was the other thing?

Speaker 1 (38:45):
I don't remember that that exact lines exactly get.

Speaker 2 (38:49):
Better my Morgan Freeman impression. The Empire Penguin walks twenty
miles north through Yeah, yeah, there are seven deadly scenes whatever.
So so I thought the interrogation scene was probably the
best in the whole movie. Yeah, it's just so creative
to cut back and forth by having a big glass

(39:09):
pane with another room and you don't have to get
one of those weird double sided pains because you never
need to cut back and break the one eighty rule.

Speaker 1 (39:16):
Yeah.

Speaker 2 (39:16):
So it's so cool that the camera can just like
dolly over from one side to the next. I honestly
like I want to use that in a film like
like one hundred percent now, And I was thinking you
could fake that by having two office spaces shoot it
at night with a drone do the same thing dolly
with the drone like that, like just pan and you
can fake an interrogation scene at night and just crop

(39:38):
it perfectly. Well.

Speaker 1 (39:39):
The other thing, you could film them separately and then
and then put the two pieces of film side by
side and then just in post move the video. Yes
that's true too, just keep from the video even easier. Yes,
that's the only hard part would be timing the timing
the lines. Yes, but it's still a very it is
very very well done. It I quite like, I really
enjoyed it.

Speaker 2 (39:58):
I just think it's so cool and the acting, so
I looked it up. Leland Orson plays the guy who
was distraught and played the customer of the the prostitute place.
He just does a.

Speaker 1 (40:13):
Phenomenal job, just like it's just you really like he
really sells it.

Speaker 2 (40:19):
And he did such a good job for I looked
on the main film credit, he's not credited, Like when
you go to Google cast, he's not on the cast credited.
I had to go through IMDb and figure out who
he was based on another fact that to prepare for
his scenes, he would actually purposely dehydrate himself so he
would his body would be more shaky, like he every

(40:41):
time he did a take.

Speaker 1 (40:42):
That's not a good thing, but it works.

Speaker 2 (40:44):
Yeah, and man, he just did a great job. He
steals the show. I wish I had my notebook or
like I pulled up my phone in the movie because
I was like, I don't want to forget this. I
don't know if you heard me. I went wow, and
I've seen this movie before. I know it was your
first time seen it. But he just completely kill And
I'm happy you.

Speaker 1 (41:01):
Thought so as well, because it really stood out to me.

Speaker 2 (41:04):
He has some of the shortest role in the whole movie,
but it's the most convincing performance of someone who was
forced to kill another person based on his sins and yeah,
like it's insane and.

Speaker 1 (41:17):
He's just not in the acting in this movie. Like
you said, it is not bad by any stretch of
the imagination. It's good.

Speaker 2 (41:21):
No, it's very solid acting, but.

Speaker 1 (41:23):
He just But also I feel like in a way
Fincher shoots this where they don't have as much like
Morgan Freeman, Like how much acting does he really do?
Like his character is pretty much just impassive the whole time.
He memorizes his lines and most of his like shots
where he's like where he's not saying something but he's
like thinking stuff. Most of it is just very much

(41:45):
assisted by lighting. And I feel like like he doesn't
it's not that he does a bad job, but he
doesn't have to do very much, and that you can
look at that as either like a good thing or
a bad thing. I mean, like, I think it shows
how well that Fincher directs, not just the actors, but
the whole production design, you know, well well.

Speaker 2 (42:07):
And I think it's sometimes less is more too, So
I don't think I don't think Morgan Freeman needs to
do a soliloquy at the start of each scene with
like a detective voiceover. I was walking downtown today and
I saw like three men on the sidewalk, you know,
yeah yeah, like yeah, yeah, Andy de Frey was a man.
Yeah right, no, no, so yeah. I think less is

(42:28):
more in that sense, and I think I think Morgan
Freeman is a very convincing performance. And you're not like,
oh my god, Morgan Freeman so good in that movie
or so or like or whatever. You're just it's just
it's just it's tight. And I think that's a phrase
we're gonna keep going back to. Is this is a
very solid film and everything blows. I was doing this

(42:51):
thing at the start of the movie and I was
trying to count the average shot length to see if
the average shot length would be seven seconds, because I
thought that that would be really And there was a
couple seven second shots, but there's also a lot of
like twelve thirteen second shots. Especially there was a really
like eleven second shot of like the thing going back
and forth. I thought that metrono, Yeah, I got bored

(43:12):
of doing that.

Speaker 1 (43:12):
You know, there was the one shot at the metrono
near the end there where he throws it. That one
feels out of place.

Speaker 2 (43:19):
Yeah, like why the hell would he throw You can
just turn around and do whatever.

Speaker 1 (43:24):
Yeah, And I mean, I guess it's sort of supposed
to represent kind of a turning point because and I
think they did it well. Like in the opening, it
does feel kind of soothing, and that's obviously what he's
using for is it's soothing to try and go to sleep,
and it feels that way, and that because they show
it show it twice once in the opening, once near
the end, and in that opening or the second time

(43:46):
they show it, it's it's it's not as it's not
as as comforting. And I don't know what they changed
with the sound design or or there's the shot or
how they had they did it, but it doesn't feel
as comforting, which is really neat because it's right around
that point that they're starting to like, okay, this is
this is because I think that's right after they've just
had the whole chase with him and everything, like it's

(44:08):
really starting to heat up and and so I find
that very interesting. But when he throws it, it's just
kind of like that there was no no build up.
It was it was funny, Yeah, in a way, it
was funny, like, but there was No, there was no
like emotional build up to it, so it felt very
out of place.

Speaker 2 (44:27):
Yeah, I don't know. For me, it's just kind of funny.
I don't know if it felt out of place or not.
I haven't really thought of that, so I'm not going
to speak too much about it because I haven't.

Speaker 1 (44:35):
Yeah, enough time, that's fair.

Speaker 2 (44:39):
They talk to a guy in the FBI because they've
decided that on the research that UH Detective Summerset and
Mills have been doing, they're going to what am I
what are the more They're going to try and get
the FBI to look into a library records and see
if hey, is there anyone who stands out that's been

(45:01):
reading books like mine, Coomp or The Seven Deadly Sins
are very profound, almost extreme religious books that have like
shaped a belief system maybe.

Speaker 1 (45:17):
Which I don't like. Like and this is getting maybe
more political, but I I don't like that reading those
books flags you like. You know, I've read mind Camp,
but not because I'm a Nazi.

Speaker 2 (45:32):
I took it. I took it out in Grade ten.
I just I was doing a research paper on on UH.
I forget what I was doing on on why Spencer's Spencer.
It was Spencer's class. I was doing a uh like
an essay on why World War two happened and trying

(45:55):
to prove that, like hey, Hitler was to democratically legally
and and there's a few reasons why. And it's not
because the German people were necessarily bad people. Is because
they may they didn't have a lot of other options, right,
there's a lot of elements to look at. It's not
black and white whatever to talk about World War's taking.

Speaker 1 (46:18):
Yeah, I mean we could talk for hours on that,
but yeah, I mean, I just the principle of the
idea of the thing that reading certain books flags you
I don't like And I mean I understand why because
it can be it can be a indicator, and so
it makes sense that you'd want to be able to
track that. I understand it from both sides, like in
that you want to but at the same time, it

(46:39):
almost feels like, well, if I if I want to
read a book to learn more, like I don't want
to be on a lot of list, you know.

Speaker 2 (46:48):
And I don't mean to spoil the surprise for u FBI,
but mind COOMF is not a page turner like I read,
I read some and I tried to pull some quotes.
In fact, I think what I did the world did
because I it. I like, I read maybe like the
first twenty thirty pages, and a lot of it was
just like you know, the solutions to the ideas and
stuff like that, and and you know, in my time

(47:09):
in prison and whatnot, like whatever. I think what I
did was I went online and I was like famous
mindcom quotes, and then I would look at the page
of that book and I turned that page and I'd
read that page. Yeah, and then I would decide if
I would cite that as like as a source. Yeah,
so I the whole thing.

Speaker 1 (47:29):
I've read the whole thing.

Speaker 2 (47:30):
But if you're listening, it was not a page turner
for me. And one of the things is, too is
a lot of times those books get stolen for personal
things or someone burns it or does whatever. And I think, yeah,
I think keeping track of maybe more profound books like
that is a good thing. Yeah, Like having it admissible
in court is like here or there. But there's also

(47:52):
things like you could say the same thing about Google search,
like oh, I was just looking that up. But there
is some times when you go to court and they
pull it like the the like the killers sing, like
what does forermeldehyde do? How to hide a body? Yes?
What's do? How long until nursing person is considered dangerous
like or deceased or whatever? And and I've seen some
of those videos on courts and stuff like that, and

(48:13):
a lot of times like they can't be used as
evidence or whatever because it was just right.

Speaker 1 (48:17):
If it's a jury, they can say, look, this is
what this person was was.

Speaker 2 (48:21):
You can't deny that. That's pretty damning evidence. Now again,
if you see my library search record and you're like, okay,
it's how to build a bomb? Mind? Comp what does
mustard gas do? And it's like I was using it
as a project of why was why was mustard gas
banned in World War Two? That makes sense but to

(48:42):
an outside perspective, and I'm confused, and I'm a possible
suspect in a murder case and that's like whatever, they
don't know why use as my research problem? Yeah, it
definitely sucks that I took those books, but it makes
sense why that might be a possible lead, for sure.
I like that discussion too, right, I like how we've
both taken.

Speaker 1 (49:02):
Out that bug that's so crazy. No, I have a
copy of it.

Speaker 2 (49:05):
Oh you have a copy of it. Yeah, they don't
know that you paid cash for it.

Speaker 1 (49:11):
Actually no, my dad was the one who bought it. So, oh,
I see, I don't know where he got it. It
was passed down.

Speaker 2 (49:20):
It was it was a family hairloom.

Speaker 1 (49:30):
We totally don't have any Dutch shirtage.

Speaker 2 (49:33):
Oh god, oh man, no family heirloom, no whatever. So
we do find from from the FBI that there is
a possible suspect, John Doe, who has found these records.
They go to visit John Doe's place. They find John Doe,
and John Doe is wearing like the old what would

(49:55):
be like a weird spider noir out figuring, you know,
I mean like like caper or whatever. Like. First of all,
the real crime is how was he allowed to walk
around in public wearing that trench coat and hat like
the man in black, Like I don't understand, like he
was the Sandman into the fifties. Detective made right, I

(50:16):
don't understand how he's allowed to wear that, And no
one was like this is our guy.

Speaker 1 (50:20):
Yeah right, So you walk back guy in the street
and you're like, oh, yeah, he's either government or a
serial killer.

Speaker 2 (50:25):
Dude, if I see a guy in a trench coat
and a hat like that, I'm either thinking like molester
or or like like murderer. You know, Like trench coat
is fine on its own, hat fine on its own
when you pair them together, Like, dude, you're playing with fire.

Speaker 1 (50:42):
Yeah, Like, I'm gonna wear a trench coat and a
hat like that first time we see each other.

Speaker 2 (50:48):
No, exactly. Like if you're at nine PM and you
see a guy wearing gloves and a hat and whatnot
like that, you're like, this guy's in the flash.

Speaker 1 (50:54):
Yeah, next time, the next time we go to the
next time we go to play pool, I'm gonna I'm
just gonna walk in like that.

Speaker 2 (51:00):
Also, he wears gloves in this scene. And this is
like my biggest problem. He wears gloves. Okay, fine, whatever,
but we've established that he cuts off his fingertips.

Speaker 1 (51:17):
Yeah, but it's also it's pretty damning if you walk
around with bandaged fingertips the whole time. Sure gloves would
help hide that.

Speaker 2 (51:24):
But my biggest problem here, and maybe a stingers were cold.
Are you cutting your fingertips? Just wear gloves. It's so
much easier.

Speaker 1 (51:33):
They may then hundred times and when they find his
apartment they can't.

Speaker 2 (51:36):
But no, no, no, they say, like a hundred times too.
That like and you can't turn pages to books easily
if your fingers are all bandaged. So wearing gloves anyways,
like there's like home deepo gloves would be better anyways,
But think about this, he had to, they say, multiple times,
he kept shaving off. How was that the better solution?

Speaker 1 (52:00):
He's also a serial killer?

Speaker 2 (52:02):
Two reasons? Two reasons, And why I don't think this
is good? First of all, like the pain of doing
that sucks you. Why would you keep doing that over
and over? It's just a time waster. Wear gloves. You
never have to cut off your fingertips. Boom. Then when
you're walking around with bandaged s fingertips, everyone thinks, oh
my god, who is this guy? If you have to
take off your glove, like pull up money from your
wallet or something, when you can't get it with your gloves,

(52:23):
everything like what the hell wires fingertips will cut off?
So already when you take off your gloves, you have
fingerprints whatever. When you go to the coffee shops, so
no one's no one's sinking your dumb, and you don't
have to keep going through that pain.

Speaker 1 (52:34):
Right, But when they reveal that he has that, he
he cuts off his fingertips, doesn't doesn't don't you just
be like, oh my god, this guy is like completely depraved.
I mean we already think that, right, But like, why is.

Speaker 2 (52:44):
He cutting off his fingertips so he doesn't leave DNA
forensic evidence? But he's cutting off his fingertips in his apartment?

Speaker 1 (52:53):
We don't know, what do you think?

Speaker 2 (52:55):
What do you think is coming off when.

Speaker 1 (52:56):
He's in his apartment wherever he's cutting off?

Speaker 2 (52:58):
Where do you what do you think he's leaving? How
many cuts off his fingertips?

Speaker 1 (53:01):
Right? But if he buries that, if he buries that
in a random park on the other side of town,
what are the chances that they are going to find it?

Speaker 2 (53:11):
Because they're not in the last year or more than
a year, because he's been there for four years or
whatever they say. So say for four years he's been
cutting off his his his fingertips, so he's been going
to a random hole in the ground every month for
four years.

Speaker 1 (53:25):
He flushes them down the toilet. I don't know. I'm
just saying, like I understand where you're coming from there, flakes. Yeah,
I don't know, and we're not.

Speaker 2 (53:34):
We're meant to say that he didn't leave a piece
of hair anywhere. He didn't leave a bit of dandriff,
He didn't. He did he wear a hair in it
for for those things. Just Kevin Spacey bald in this movie.
Uh okay, okay, hear me out. He didn't leave a
pube anywhere in his apartment. There was not a single pube.

(53:58):
He said he didn't expect them to be there so soon, right,
So you can't assume when he was shocked to see
that that he had like previously cleaned his apartment out
one hundred percent, that there'd be no evidence.

Speaker 1 (54:08):
I think you have a problem that you have, or
the problem with the way you're looking at all of
this is you're looking at it from the perspective of
a mostly sane and rational person. Yes, mostly mostly completely
mostly mostly did not completely mostly did. We still got

(54:31):
to do it. Maybe one of these days I lost
my train of thought. Yes, you're looking at it from
the perspective of a mostly rational and sane person, And
I think the thing is, this guy isn't so where
where we're thinking of all these things that are like, well,
this would have been made way easier. This is also
the guy that murdered seven people because he wanted to

(54:53):
make a religious point to society. So I don't think
we can exactly say that he's thinking of the most
efficient or best way of knowing things all the time.

Speaker 2 (55:04):
I think that's wrong. I think he is. He's trying
because they say so many times in the movie that
he's the most meticulous guy that they've ever.

Speaker 1 (55:10):
Right, but he's still he's also meticulous, Like I mean,
my point is that, like, maybe in his mind, for
whatever reason, because we've already established that his mind is
a complete shit show, because he's doing all these things,
maybe in his mind, for some reason, that is the
most the best way of doing it.

Speaker 2 (55:27):
We're like to believe though, that he always knows what's
the best thing to do, especially since with the end
of the movie he guarantees that he's gonna be envy,
you know what I mean, and for that to happen
it's perfectly no mills to do that, which people say
also as a plot hole. You know, how did he
know him enough to envy him? And I think, you

(55:48):
know what, whatever, who cares you can just say that
thing and he's already won. But whatever, True, I don't
think it's a huge deal. I just think like from
a certain perspective, is like, first of all, why cut
off the fingertips and you could just always wear gloves.
Surely that's less painful than the constant scarring and doing
it every month. I think of how fast your skin
grows back, right, Like, I just like, yeah, but whatever,

(56:11):
I don't that doesn't make her break it. That's actually
just my biggest problem is is I just didn't think
that's a good reason for him to do that. As
well as also I doubt like they didn't they say
they scoured so many times and didn't find anything. I
feel like he would have left something. Maybe he's sure
he's bald, but there's ere in other places in your body. Yeah,

(56:31):
he definitely urinated somewhere.

Speaker 1 (56:33):
Yeah, But I mean also you have to think that
if they don't have anything to match him to, then.

Speaker 2 (56:37):
Sure, but if they also left he also left the
knife somewhere true that he used to cut himself.

Speaker 1 (56:42):
True, I don't know. I mean, that's the thing. This
is also nineteen ninety five. I've been reading lately, and
this is gonna sound weird, but about like DNA, Henny,
because I've been watching a lot of true crime stuff
and like how they they can find people through.

Speaker 2 (56:58):
Data on a list.

Speaker 1 (56:58):
Now, Buddy, yeah, I know it is, but like it's
really quite neat how they like they have your DNA
and they don't have to have your DNA in the system.
But if like you're you're twenty three and meters and
you're ones like that, like your DNA testers that have ancestry,
all those that have huge databases of people, they can

(57:19):
find common elements so they can like say, okay, so
you shared you share DNA with this person, this person,
this person, this person, and then they can trace the
family tree out for those people and find the common links.
And that's how they can find people through DNA without
actually having their DNA in the system.

Speaker 2 (57:36):
So like you're almost like accurately trying to figure out, like, oh,
are you a descendant of Genghis Kong?

Speaker 1 (57:41):
Exactly right, right right, And it's just I guess this
is ninety five, so they wouldn't. I don't. I think
this is a more recent, kind of in the last
kind of twenty years kind of development, but it's it's
they've been gone going back and solving old cold cases
where they had DNA but they couldn't do anything with
it at the time, right right, So I don't know,
just a neat little thing that And.

Speaker 2 (58:03):
It's really nice to know the foresight of some detectives
and stuff who who knew the technology would be there
someday where you know, obviously we didn't start dusting for
fingerprints until what eighties or nineties, probably like something like that.
But but it's nice to know that some people were like, Okay,
we actually have urine from the killer or something like
that like that. That's nice to know, you know. It's

(58:25):
tough to hear though, that some cases that people who
were falsely put away and then found out were actually
innocent in the future based on DNA evidence evidence. It's
good that they're out now, but that has caused a
lot of problem. It's infinitely better. It's just it's infinitely
better that they're out now after say, thirty years, instead
of actually dining in prison knowing that that they were

(58:47):
innocent the whole time. Yeah, but it is better that
it would never happen in the first place. And that's
why the legal system gets so much flack you, Nope,
they here's the thing. Obviously, the lawyer's greed, right. The
reason that John Doe kills him is because he says,

(59:07):
this was a guy who spent his entire life dedicated
to making sure that rapists stayed on the street. And
I don't see it that way as a defense lawyer.
I mean, there's some scummy defense layers. But when you
really think about it, he just did his job, you
know what I mean, what's a defense lawyer's job. Yeah,
the same thing, defense lawyer.

Speaker 1 (59:29):
There's a lot of moral, moral implications, yeah, you know
where it's Yeah, and that's I mean, that's a very
hotly debated.

Speaker 2 (59:39):
It was like our defense people whereas bad people. I
want it to be a defense lawyer and not not
for the reasons the reasons why I don't think defense
lawyers are bad. Sure, people are in it for the
wrong reasons sometimes. Sure there's your Saul Goodman's, Sure there's
the the John Doe's. I think that in order for
the system to work, you need to have equal representation

(01:00:04):
on both sides.

Speaker 1 (01:00:05):
Well, you have to send who's willing to represent those people,
because I mean, like you say, that's how the system
works is giving people a fair chance to say no,
this wasn't me. And this is why, because there have
been how many cases where all the evidence points to
something and then one piece of evidence comes to light
where it's like, okay, that's impossible. Yes, right, and and

(01:00:27):
so yeah, it's it's like there are I don't know.

Speaker 2 (01:00:31):
Think of how many defense lawyers would have been called horrible,
awful people by a victim's family for representing their client
and then in thirty years they find out that that
client was actually innocent. First of all, that weighs on
a defense lawyer because oh, so I'm a bad person
because I did my job and making sure my client

(01:00:51):
had a voice and they got off or they went
to jail. So I'm a bad person either didn't do
my job right or did my job right whatever. First
of all, it's always a job done right because as
a defense lawyer, you've done your job in making sure
your client either ghost to jail or doesn't. You've just
given them, presented your side of the evidence. Boom, you've
already done your job. Whatever. Fine, I don't think you're

(01:01:12):
a bad person for representing the people who are guilty.
Because someone needs to make sure they have a voice. Yeah, right,
even if no, I don't think any defense lawyer or
most defense lawyers like wake up and are like, I'm
so happy to represent this person. It's kind of like
you have to do it because the letter of the

(01:01:32):
law says so. And it's like a constitutional right, you
know what I mean, Like that's kind of like a guaranteed,
And yeah, I think it's important that you get that guarantee, right.
So I don't think you're a bad person for doing that,
And I don't think John Doe's lawyer is a bad
person for representing John Doe. I think it comes down
to a circumstance thing. Would you rather represent someone who's

(01:01:53):
innocent every single time? I would say, so, I was
like for me as a defense lawyer, Yeah, I.

Speaker 1 (01:01:58):
Mean yes, know though, because if you're representing someone who's
innocent all the time and you lose some of your cases,
and it's almost gonna feel worse than if you lose
your case as a defense lawyer, yes, is guilty.

Speaker 2 (01:02:11):
I just mean in a hypothetical word world, if I
knew one hundred percent of the time and I could
one hundred percent of the time guarantee that my client
was innocent and get them off on hundred percent of
the time. I would feel great as a defense lawyer
if you are a prosecutor on the same thing. No
one calls a prosecutor a bad person for making an
innocent person go to the jail. Everyone's just like, Oh,

(01:02:32):
they just dealt with the evidence they had and that's
what the circumstances was. It's a defense lawyer's fault that
they weren't able to accurately no matter what. I feel
like the defense lawyers lose, and I think it sucks
for everyone. But it's just how the system works. And
I don't think this is like a bad oh, this
is like the system needs to be redone because.

Speaker 1 (01:02:49):
Like no, in principle, the system works.

Speaker 2 (01:02:52):
The system works when you have a lawyer that does
their job and make sure that their client has a
voice and that's that's it. Yeah, the details come and
that's up to a jury to decide. And when someone
is wrongly convicted based on evidence thirty years later, it
is awful. But and it sucks. But if that technology

(01:03:12):
wasn't there and it wasn't like not doing due diligence, yeah,
then like in thirty years from now when some people
get out because there it's not gonna because new technology,
more and more it's gonna be based on well, actually
some of it's gonna be video footage and stuff. What
a lot of it's gonna be now is due diligence, right,
And I think that's gonna be or tampering with evidence.

(01:03:32):
I think that's we're gonna see a trend of that
more in my opinion. Yeah, because now most of the
people who were pre fingerprints are kind of dying off
now and stuff like that. And as now the DNA
evidence is pretty solid. But whatever, we've gone way into
that and I'm probably wrong, I'm talking on my ass,
but that's just what I think.

Speaker 1 (01:03:53):
I think they'll they'll the resolution or the yeah, we'll
call it the resolution where you wear Mills shoots John Doe.
Like I was, I was thinking about this, like there's
no legal way he gets out of that, Like like
he's going to jail for a while, because that is

(01:04:14):
that is cold budd and murder.

Speaker 2 (01:04:15):
I mean as a lawyer. As a lawyer, okay, let's
let's play a game. You're prosecutor, I'll be his defense
or Okay, you tell me why you think he's going
to to go to jail. And I as someone who
neither of us are lawyers, so you tell me, as

(01:04:36):
just like whatever your day one of law school, why
he should go to jail, and and not that you
think he.

Speaker 1 (01:04:41):
Should go to jail and part of the game, just.

Speaker 2 (01:04:44):
As part of the game. And al Preton, I'm his defense.

Speaker 1 (01:04:46):
Well, I mean, murder is murder.

Speaker 2 (01:04:49):
Murders murder.

Speaker 1 (01:04:49):
He had an opportunity to uh to to put down
his weapon. His partner there, Somerset was was was trying
to tell him, give me your gun like that, like
you know, he had. He had more than ample opportunity
to to make sure this didn't happen, and he still
chose he he made the decision to pull that trigger.

(01:05:12):
While his his his reasons for pulling it are are
not you know, you know, you know they're they're they're
not just cold blooded murder. It is still murder, and
we have to apply the law evenly to all all people,
no matter what their reasoning is. Sure it wasn't self defense,
and so therefore we have to apply to you.

Speaker 2 (01:05:31):
Okay, Now, if I was like a really cool defense lawyer,
I would like saw goodman pull up what the definition
of murder was, and if it was in cold blood. Now,
I would say to get him off on some of
that stuff. I wouldn't plead insanity because there's no way
that we'd established that he would be insane. Obviously they
talk about doing that for John Doe. I would say, oh,

(01:05:52):
but your honor, my client was provoked. What would you
do if you found out your dead wife, who we
just learned is pregnant, right, is dead and found in
a box? What would your reaction be if I put up,
ladies and ladies and gentlemen of the jury, if I
put up this notebook and flip it to the next

(01:06:13):
page and you see a photo of your murdered wife,
what would you do? That's what I would do. I'd
be like, what would you do? What would be your
first reaction? Right? And then like maybe at ai generate
like some of like and some of their actual like
dead wives like aig as a jury and and and
they would see their wives like, oh my god, that's
my dead wife, like actually right, and like they'd be

(01:06:33):
throwing up right because it's like so gross and anyway, anyways,
that's just my like thing. I'd be like, Okay, yeah,
my client was provoked. No matter what, I think, it's
probably still murder. But it's and I lose as a
defense only.

Speaker 1 (01:06:49):
As a defense lawyer. Really, there was enough witnesses and
everything that as a defense are the only thing you're
gonna be able to do is try and get reduced.

Speaker 2 (01:06:56):
Since I would say, yeah, there's mitigating circums stances, I'd
say it's still murder. But it's mitigating circumstances. And that's
why he would maybe instead goats on like like maybe
a house arrest or something trying.

Speaker 1 (01:07:09):
It wouldn't be house arrest, that's the taxipy.

Speaker 2 (01:07:13):
But but I would say, I would say, okay, well,
my client was provoked. He is the head of his
dead wife, whom he just found out too many he
was pregnant, but he found he found out based on
he was provoked by John Doe who told him all
this stuff. Anyways, what's in the box, So he found out.

(01:07:35):
He found out that his wife was in the box.
So he knows that his wife and soon to be
kid were killed. So he's provoked. He's angry, he has
a gun in his hand. We have we have a
murderer who not necessarily was given like a trial yet

(01:07:55):
convicted yet who should have been still in prison a
holding because technically that wasn't gone through a judge. That
was gone through the police, not like through like an
actual like judge or like determined by the like the
actual government. Right, So should he have even been out
in the first place? In that sense, you have a

(01:08:17):
fugitive who's sitting right there that's provoking and is actually
just admitted to another two killings? So was he acting
within his sphair right of someone who may have been
giving the death penalty and he just did the lord's
work if we're talking about the defense, right, So I
don't know that's like.

Speaker 1 (01:08:34):
Now, As the prosecution, I would bring up Somerset under
oath as a witness, and I would say, and I
would ask him about the the emotional instability or instability
that Mills had displayed throughout the last few days, and
I'd use that to show that he shouldn't have even
been there, you know, or have a gun or anything boom.

Speaker 2 (01:08:57):
And as a defense lawyer, I would take that exact
state and I would say, so, Detective Somerset, in your
professional opinion, if you didn't think that, Detective Wells should
be Detective Mills should have a weapon because he's too
hot headed. Then why did you allow him to follow
along on this ongoing investigation with a murder who's killed

(01:09:18):
seven people? I tried to again, why did the department
allow this man who was obviously crazed murder my client
with a gun? Right? So that's that's what I would say.

Speaker 1 (01:09:27):
So then you bring on the police chief and he'd
have to answer for.

Speaker 2 (01:09:31):
That, right. So that's what I'd say. I would I
would just be like, and we're not lawyers. We're not lawyers.
I did law thirty and grade eleven. That's like, that's
what that's that's my extent. I know, like men's ray
and act as rays. So we have in order to
establish the charges, you need to have the act of
the crime, actus rays and men's ray intent. Okay, so

(01:09:52):
we have the act of a crime. He shot him
in the head. What's his intent? Okay? Now you could
argue some weird punisher logic. Was his intent to justice?
Was he provoked into doing it? Did he have actual intent?
Was he just acting out of and you could say
he was in a delirious nature where we're not pleading
psychology we're almost pleading something where.

Speaker 1 (01:10:13):
It's more psychathy.

Speaker 2 (01:10:14):
It's more of like a manslaughter case because she's decided
that he was no longer in control at this point,
because his emotions were built up so much after finding
his deceased wife that it's no longer intent. It's like
he's lost control. Now does that need to go into
a deep psychological investigation? And then you're like, okay, well,

(01:10:34):
what's his IQ. We know he's a detective. So it's
like it's a big thing, right, And that's why these
things take so long. But you can see here, right,
how even just like a little that's what the defense
lawyers do. It's like, oh, so you said he's hot headed,
So police chief, why did you give this guy who
you're trying to decide that he's a hot headed fool?
Why was he given a gun? Why were you allowing

(01:10:56):
him to do that? Right? So that's kind of how
you can play that, right, And I think that's I
think that's funny whatever. You know. Back to the movie,
we find John Doe, they chase him, Brad Pitt gets
hit in the face by him. Actually, during the scene,
brad Pitt fell through a windshield like put his arm

(01:11:16):
through in shield an accident. He required surgery. They wrote
into a script that's why he has that sling. He
actually did have to have surgery for whatever he did
with the glass and one on the cuts. I guess
we can kind of skip through. We've talked a lot.
This is gonna be a long episode, so basically we

(01:11:37):
John Doe turns himself in at one point. Yep, he
admits that, like, oh, hey, there's no other two bodies,
and I'll do a full written confession of these two bodies. Yeah.
Funny enough. If they're wire tapping him and he says
he's gonna confess and do whatever, I feel like.

Speaker 1 (01:11:54):
They don't even have to take him out there.

Speaker 2 (01:11:55):
I feel like as uh, I just feel like as
a I know, saying you're gonna confess if you do
this isn't the same as confessing. But just like as
a judge or something, or like as a member of
a jury, if you're holding over my head, like, oh,
I'll actually show you where these two people are and
then I'll officially confess. I get it, like if you confess,

(01:12:18):
you might get like a lowered sentence and whatnot. But
I just like, I don't know how to say it,
but like you immediately know you know what I mean?

Speaker 1 (01:12:25):
Yeah, well right, you're admitting to it. You're admitting to
it by saying I will give you a confession.

Speaker 2 (01:12:31):
But saying saying, like, if you let me go show
you where these two bodies that I'm murdered are, I'll
give you a written confession to me. That's a verbal profession.
That's already enough of a confession in my opinion.

Speaker 1 (01:12:42):
Yeah, that like you know what I mean, I get you,
you know what I mean?

Speaker 2 (01:12:46):
And I know like they do that in the murderers
and stuff like that, like they can like save off
the death penalty, Like if Ted Bundy's like, hey, by
the way, there's another three bodies you haven't found. If
you keep me alive for another three years, I'll tell
you one of the bodies, and then another three years
i'll tell you another one. We're like, okay, I guess
we'll hold off and give you the death penaloty. This
guy's ready to talk, but it's like I got whatever.

(01:13:08):
So yeah, they go out into the middle of nowhere.
They have a helicopter following them. We find out that
the two more bodies are are here, as envy, which
is John Doe, and wrath which is Brad Pitt's or
Detective Mills. So a package comes at seven o'clock or

(01:13:29):
seven oh three whatever. We find out from Morgan Freeman's
character that it's Gwyneth Paltrow's head in a box, Detective
mills wife, and she's been murdered. Now we find out
based on dialogue that John Doe's doing it. He explains everything, Hey,
I had a little run in with your wife. I
thought she was very admirable. I envied her in the

(01:13:51):
life you had with a child. How did she know
he was One of the things that came to my
mind is, okay, well, how did he know she was pregnant?
And if he if Detective Mills didn't even know, I
would think maybe she pled for her life and said,
oh my god, I have a baby. I'm gonna bring
I'm gonna bring up a thing here. Well i'm the
syopsicie and i'm gonna bring up another posting our question

(01:14:12):
to you, and it's gonna be a more religious question.
And anyways, we find out like, oh my god, what's
in the box? Find out it's his wife. Detective Mills
shoots John Doe dead and gets taken away and the
movie ends. Right. Okay, so it's seven people, seven bodies

(01:14:35):
for seven deadly sins. But okay, now I don't want
to take any stances on anything. We're not gonna do
any of that. I just want to go through something
that I was thinking about this morning, because we find
out Gwyneth Peltrow's character is pregnant. This is a very
religious movie. Not very religious movie, i'd say, but it

(01:14:57):
goes off of religious tones, and we can make the
argument that John Doe might be kind of a religious
fanatic and sees himself not as a deity or or
the Messiah, but more as a channel for the device
or channel for the Messiah to sacrifice himself as one
of the seven deadly sins. Right, So we're going off

(01:15:21):
of what what do religious people necessarily think of? Maybe
a baby. A baby is a living, breathing person, right
in the religious sense, right, even if it's not even
if it's not born in like in again not taking
any stances whatever, just like in like the Catholic whatever

(01:15:42):
that's that they considered, like oh, at a conception or
whatever is different views. It's a child. So you could argue,
in John Doe's perspective, that didn't he technically kill two people? Then?

Speaker 1 (01:15:53):
Yeah, so now.

Speaker 2 (01:15:56):
It's eight bodies, right, and so you know what I mean. Now,
some people argue that she obviously wasn't very far along pregnant,
so maybe she's she's it's actually not a child at all.
We're not gonna have a discussion on whether or not
we think it's.

Speaker 1 (01:16:10):
A child or not like that, but it is an
interesting thing to note.

Speaker 2 (01:16:13):
I'm just bringing it up on why I think by
the movies logic, it should be considered a child because
it's a very religious kind of themed movie. So I
think someone who's very into that religious aspect, like John
Doe might be, is someone who who uh who would
consider it to be like another like another person that
he kills the other the other he doesn't.

Speaker 1 (01:16:33):
The other problem I kind of have with that also
is that through this whole thing, he has been choosing
people he feels are guilty of those sins. He killed,
a pilled, a pregnant woman maybe, but also even if you,
even if you just for whatever reason in his mind
he feels that Mill's wife is guilty of something. How

(01:16:57):
is the baby like sure? Right, it's not born yet.
It doesn't have.

Speaker 2 (01:17:01):
Unless that baby was born of sin. But wouldn't that
be better as a US baby? Right?

Speaker 1 (01:17:06):
But they're also married, so it's not like it it's
out of the Christian like, you know, no child's at
a wet no children at a wedlock. So I really
don't I really like that one doesn't make a lot of.

Speaker 2 (01:17:21):
Celto's character is like one of the only solid characters
in this movie who's actually like a bright light. Yeah,
Detective Mills. Again, I'm a use word prideful because I'm
gonna go back to that. Like I said at the start,
he's obviously the wrath character, hot headed whatever, but he's
not very hot headed that much in the movie, and
Detective s Somerset is kind of more of he's more

(01:17:43):
toned down, he's very ya, He's been very effective.

Speaker 1 (01:17:47):
I feel like in a way, Summerset's character makes Mills
more of that prideful because really, I feel like Mills
is just like, Hey, I worked homicide for five years.
I'm not a rookie. I know what I'm doing. Give
me a chance, I feel like, and that's where a
lot of his kind of pride comes from. In a way, right,
I'll get to that too.

Speaker 2 (01:18:05):
And I think compared, let's talk in a detective sense.
Gwyneth Pealzow's character, Mills's wife, seems more of like a
virgin figure in this movie. Yeah, because she's been untainted
by all the stuff that detectives insane innocence.

Speaker 1 (01:18:25):
So she is she's just like a school teacher. She's
just trying five teacher.

Speaker 2 (01:18:29):
She's more of virgin Mary. Then if again we're going
I'm using religious here, I think if we're gonna be
talking about the seven Deadly Sins, yeah, this is a
good comparison. She seems to be more of like a
religious figure than like a virgin Mary, than someone who's
been tainted and deserves to die. Same with the baby,

(01:18:50):
and we'll consider the baby as an eighth person only
because if we're going off of religious tone, if you
ask someone in a church, if they think like a baby,
like a like a fetus, is a is a baby,
the chances are they'll say it's a baby. Right. Again,
not gonna take a stance. I'm not a scientist. I'm
a doctor. I don't know whatever. Not my that's not

(01:19:11):
my expertise. My expertise is. I don't know if I
have an expertise. I'm gonna be honest movie talking out
of my ass is and that's what I'm doing right now.
But I don't know. So you could argue that, sure,
he kills them as a way to get the next
two bodies, wrath and envy, but he's killing people who
should be guilty, like he says, like you brought up.

(01:19:34):
And you could argue that Gwyneth Paltrow's character is the
most unnguilty character. She's the light of this movie.

Speaker 1 (01:19:41):
She actually this that brings me to another another point.
I'm gonna change the direction of this a little bit. Yes,
I feel like he had this this color palette, and
it was kind of talked about in their little opening
the Cineplex had a little opening thing about their Fincher
Files kind of show or whatever. But it's all like

(01:20:04):
very drab, beige, brown, gray, yellows, like very very and
it's like that the entire time, and and it helps
to to kind of show the world in the way
that Fincher wants it, you know, very kind of dull
and old and not not not happy a happy place.

(01:20:26):
But I feel like we needed more contrast and something
like Gwyneth Paltrow's character is where I could have seen
having more contrast in that in that like vibrant, saturate
and like any For example, in the first two scenes
where we see her when they're at their home and
when they're at the diner, or when she's at the
dinner with Somerset, you hear soft jazz in the in

(01:20:47):
the background, and that's like the only two times you
hear that music. And so there's that, But I wish
they would have done something with the color, Like in
the home, they could have just had a few little
decorations and things that kind of spiced it up. And
in the diner you could have you know, maybe like
you know the classic diner colors, you know, like more
red and and just more more vibrants in those scenes

(01:21:08):
that really just shows her as that bright light, so
that it like really when she's killed at the end,
it like comes crashing down, you know.

Speaker 2 (01:21:16):
So so I agree with you on that on that
sense of why the colors should be like more. I
don't necessarily think it's one hundred percent necessary though, because
you could argue that the only time mills And and
Somerset have a genuine nice moment with laughter is when
they're with her at the dinner. We're talking about the

(01:21:37):
house shaking and Morgan Fruman so it's laby. That is
weird too if it feels very out of place, like
the acting wasn't not that great in that scene in
my opinion, I then because it's a funny moment, but.

Speaker 1 (01:21:48):
It was just a monkey wrench kind of like it
just yeah, like.

Speaker 2 (01:21:52):
It felt more like sitcomy like but anyways, or like
an SNL skin Yeah, I say, but but you could
argue that the the only time they have like an
actual nice moment is when they're with her, and and
that she's kind of brought them together in a sense, right,
and whatever you could. You can make the argument. But
I do like what you said.

Speaker 1 (01:22:13):
Let's go through here, uh just sh.

Speaker 2 (01:22:17):
Dialogue at the start. I'm just gonna go through likes
and dislikes because we've talked it. I think the dialogue
at the start was way too quiet. They go outside
in the rain and the rain's loud, and I get it,
when the rain's loud, it's hard to hear, but the
dialogue was just way too quiet that like actually in
the theater, like I was sinking to myself, like I
wish I could either go up into the booth turn

(01:22:38):
it up, or have a cut of this movie and
turn up the audio levels, you know what I mean.
Like I was like, dude, Like the first thing I
would do is going to premiere and like just five
decibels higher.

Speaker 1 (01:22:50):
But yeah, whatever, Yeah, well, that's that's an interesting thing
that they do also with the doing that, like they
do that with the club too, like, And it was
when we were talking to Sam afterwards. We've ran into
him a few times at these events, and he was

(01:23:11):
pointing out that how like most movies, they don't do
the club music very loud, and then they did it
loud in this one t which I agree with him.
I kind of like, in a way, you wouldn't want
to sustain that for very long, but in this movie
it works for sure.

Speaker 2 (01:23:24):
Yeah. I just yeah, it's just at the very start
with the rain, I was like, oh my god, that
is so quiet. Really bugged me for some reason, but
then it was fine the rest of the movie. It's
just that one scene. I talked about plot hole potentially
with the pregnant woman and the baby. Yeah, as like
a religious symbol like again, she's untainted by this world

(01:23:45):
of killing like the detectives might be, and and John Doe.
She seems more like a virgin in this sense. But whatever,
Like that's up to interpretation, and that could be a
very long discussion. I think, yeah, fingertips instead of gloves. Yeah,
I didn't understand that interrogation scene. Very awesome. Yeah, I
love each unique body. What a great set piece to have. Yeah,

(01:24:09):
with every single different story with greed and envy and
in lost and and wrath, I just just insane gluttony. Sorry,
excuse me, geez having gluttony like like face down in
food is awesome, right, and cockroach is going around. Fantastic

(01:24:31):
set piece, right, and like it's like you could imagine
what it smelled like. Greed was like all right, I
guess like he's like in the law office. Cool, it's
definitely high end decorated office. But I think for me, like, yeah,
sloth was really cool, Like like that was just it's
crazy interesting. I like how every single right if they

(01:24:52):
would have if they would have had gluttony. And then
the next guy is a lawyer who's also dead at
his table right with like he cut himself and then
the lady who was pride, it was also dead like
at like whatever, you know, granted they do you find
each of them like in a bed or like a
chair or something that. Like how it's a little different
each time. And I like how Lust is still alive.
I like how Wrath is still alive. Right, but they

(01:25:15):
were I guess, oh, is lust considered the lady like
the prostitute or is lust considered the guy who paid
for the prostitute? Couldn't you argue that is the guy
who paid for it?

Speaker 1 (01:25:27):
It's kind of both that, like, I mean, sure, she
that's that's the profession that she she chose, or that
not necessarily chose, I suppose, But you know.

Speaker 2 (01:25:39):
I don't chose people become. No, I'm not an expert.
I just find it hard to believe that most prostitutes
would become a prostitute based out of lust, if that makes.

Speaker 1 (01:25:48):
Yeah, right, Like like that it would be more of
a monetary need or or it would be forced into it.

Speaker 2 (01:25:54):
I suppose, like it's more of a profession thing.

Speaker 1 (01:25:57):
Yeah, I suppose you're right. It probably is more a
the of.

Speaker 2 (01:26:01):
The the guy who goes and pays.

Speaker 1 (01:26:03):
I mean, Wrath is also still alive in a way
because he's putting it so it's a little he's kind
of still alive too, but there is a body as
a result of it. So I guess those two are
kind of similar.

Speaker 2 (01:26:19):
So yeah, I it's hard to say, but I do
like how all of it was is different. I want
to bring up a question, should Brad Pitt be Pride
instead of Wrath? And I think this is where they
could have taken a different direction because Brad Pitt comes

(01:26:41):
in right hard.

Speaker 1 (01:26:45):
One of the deadly sins? Isn't one of the seven
deadly sins?

Speaker 2 (01:26:49):
That is what?

Speaker 1 (01:26:51):
No, it's not that was one. I'll pull it up again.

Speaker 4 (01:26:55):
It's not what not luss Oh it is. I'm stupid,
Okay I was yep, yeah, I'm stupid.

Speaker 1 (01:27:12):
Because the girl was right.

Speaker 2 (01:27:13):
Anyways, I think I think Wrath should have been like
an abusive dad or something like that.

Speaker 1 (01:27:20):
Right, right, whatever, But but how do you But then
how does Pride?

Speaker 2 (01:27:24):
I just think I just think Brad Pitt comes in right.
Obviously he's a little quick to the punch, right, but
he's not very like levelheaded. He comes in he's like, okay, listen, man,
this isn't my first case even though he's new here.
I think Somerset's trying to humble him in a way
where he's like where he's like, you need to take

(01:27:46):
it slow because things are a little bit different here.
And I think that's a smart approach to someone who's newer.
And he comes in, he's like, listen, man, this isn't
my first case. I'm good. I can do better things, right,
I can do this, I can do that. He's very
prideful in my opinion. I kept using the word for
some of his stuff, because yes, there is a lot
of pride in his character where I feel like he's
a little bit too maybe full of himself. Right. He

(01:28:09):
talks about, yeah, I drove, I drew my weapon right,
and I fired once night and I got him right,
and and maybe wrath. You could be like, oh, he
like shot him? Maybe an anger, right, I would argue
it's also a pride thing too, though, because he doesn't
remember the name of the guy.

Speaker 1 (01:28:26):
He shot, and he didn't shoot him that they shot.
He didn't shoot him, He didn't what do you mean
the guy? No, he didn't get he didn't shoot anyone.
The cop beside him got shot by the guy.

Speaker 2 (01:28:38):
They were going after it, but he fired his gun
and shot him.

Speaker 1 (01:28:41):
He didn't fire that, he didn't.

Speaker 2 (01:28:42):
I'm pretty sure he fired his gun and shot him.

Speaker 1 (01:28:44):
Yeah, he didn't shoot the cop beside him though.

Speaker 2 (01:28:48):
No, the cop beside him got shot, yeah, and then
he pulled out his gun fired. He was telling he's
telling Morgan Freeman that he shot the guy, but he
didn't want get away like the suspect.

Speaker 1 (01:28:56):
But I don't think he killed him.

Speaker 2 (01:28:59):
Okay, regardless if you killed him or not, he doesn't
remember his name. Now I must say, no, the victim.

Speaker 1 (01:29:06):
It was the cop that got shot that he isn't sure. Yeah,
I'm pretty sure.

Speaker 2 (01:29:12):
Okay, but you also didn't know what pride was a.

Speaker 1 (01:29:13):
Deadly We're gonna have to go rewatch the scene.

Speaker 2 (01:29:15):
Now. We might have to rewatch the scene because I
think again, it's more of a pride thing, because I
think if you shooting, if you shoot someone right, yeah,
or the person besides you even let's okay, let's even
say the copy sign was the one who got shot
and he couldn't remember the cops name. I'm not arguing
that the cop didn't get shot. The cop got shot.
He couldn't remember the victim's name. You're saying he coldn't

(01:29:37):
remember the cops name either, or I'd say it's also
a pride thing because that must have been a big
traumatic moment and.

Speaker 1 (01:29:44):
You would remember remember the cop died. Yeah, sure, you
would remember cop died. And that's what he couldn' remember
the name of the cop that died.

Speaker 2 (01:29:50):
Right, And I think that's more of a pride thing
than anything, because he's like, oh, I got the I
got the suspect though, right. Wouldn't you say, like, if
you had to pull your gun on someone and shoot
them the first time in your life, or you watch
someone besides you die, don't you think you would remember
that their name at.

Speaker 1 (01:30:06):
Least, maybe the very least.

Speaker 2 (01:30:08):
And I would say, maybe that's like just like a
plot hole. But I would argue that's more of a
trait of someone who's too like full of themselves, because
maybe he felt the need that he didn't really need
to remember because well, at least we got the bad guy, right, right,
And I think that's more.

Speaker 1 (01:30:21):
But I think that's one of the things that that
makes that frustrates him is that he can't remember the name.

Speaker 2 (01:30:25):
Yeah, that's true. He's not like happy, he couldn't remember
the name. Yeah, I don't know. I just feel like
a lot of the times, I'm not saying it's wrong
that he's wrath, because there's no doubt in my mind
that he does very much act throughout this film with
a very wrath kind of thing, like especially at the
end when he does do the thing of wrath, even
though he's very much provoked into it, right, it's like.

Speaker 1 (01:30:46):
Yeah, I don't know. I mean, I just I think
in a way, wrath is a better ending because I
don't exactly see how you would really like pull the
twist with pride, like why not.

Speaker 2 (01:30:58):
I don't know. I just don't see how it would.
I don't know, because if you act like pride the
whole thing. And he's saying, if we're gonna, if we're
gonna assume that John Doe knew enough about him to
envy him and say he envied his life and killed
his wife and whatnot. But I would also assume that
John Doe would know enough now he was kind of
a prideful person, especially since you know, you know what

(01:31:20):
I mean, he talks all the time about having a
loving wife and stuff like that in a family. To
go home to, oh, why aren't you married Somerset? You
know you know what I mean? So I don't. I
don't know. Ye like, it's it's tough. It's tough to say.
I just think he acts. He acts way, even though
his final act is is wrath. I feel like throughout
the story he portrays more of the pride elements than

(01:31:42):
wrath elements. And whatever it works, it works. I'm not upset.
I just was wanting to pose the question. And if
you thought, could you see him being pride, and in
my opinion, I could.

Speaker 1 (01:31:52):
I don't see it's I could see, I could see.

Speaker 2 (01:31:56):
I just I wouldn't be surprised if instead it was
wrath that was killed and they're like, oh my god,
pride pulled up. I would have the same exact reaction. Now,
maybe you could say, oh, him killing himself or sorry,
him killing John Doe is like the final act of wrath,
and if he was pride, he necessarily wouldn't have killed

(01:32:16):
John Doe. I feel like there's something another direction, like
maybe they would have went maybe I don't know, I
just don't see.

Speaker 1 (01:32:21):
It, but that that's fine.

Speaker 2 (01:32:22):
Again, I think it works perfectly fine that he's wrath,
but he does, in my opinion, show a lot of
traits of pride, and maybe you could say he also
envies Somerset's career a bit.

Speaker 1 (01:32:35):
Maybe. I don't know. Yeah, it's it's you know, mean, yeah,
there's definitely different direction they could have taken it.

Speaker 2 (01:32:40):
Maybe, But again I think that's that's mostly I have
a different credits. I like how the credits go from
the bottom top. I thought that was kind of cool.
It's kind of a little unsuddenly and I kind of
like that.

Speaker 1 (01:32:50):
Yeah, but that's kind of all I have, right, and
get out of here, shall we.

Speaker 2 (01:33:00):
You go first?

Speaker 4 (01:33:00):
Okay, Ah, I gotta think about this for a second.

Speaker 2 (01:33:11):
I what do I want to go with?

Speaker 1 (01:33:17):
I'm gonna go with an eight?

Speaker 2 (01:33:20):
An eight?

Speaker 1 (01:33:21):
Okay, Yeah, it's fun. It was good. It was. It was.
It was good, but it wasn't as good as Spaceballs.

Speaker 2 (01:33:32):
Holy shit, you Spaceballs a better review than seven. Yeah,
you're sick in the head.

Speaker 1 (01:33:39):
No, John Doe is sick in the head.

Speaker 2 (01:33:41):
My god. Anyway, Yes, No, that's tough to hear, dude,
that's insane.

Speaker 1 (01:33:45):
No, I you know, I just saying, I don't know,
it's just it was. It was a good movie. It
was a solid movie. But I don't know. It's just
little things like we we did, we talked about them,
and I just I didn't enjoy it as much as
I enjoyed a movie likes Baseballs, for example, like and
I know that in a movie like this, maybe enjoyment
isn't the as much of an important factor. But no, okay,

(01:34:11):
an eight solid movie.

Speaker 2 (01:34:13):
I was sinking probably an eight and a half. I
was thinking about probably nine. Though I like this movie
a lot, I think it's good enough that it deserves
a nine in my opinion. I've seen it twice, and
even though I knew how it ends, I still enjoyed it,
and I was still surprised by some things I forgot,
and I still really liked some of the details. And
I think given the fact that I still enjoyed so

(01:34:35):
much of the details and I still get goosebumps out
a lot of the Morgan Freeman scenes, and for me
it provokes such an interesting conversation about some of those
religious elements and legal elements, I think since it's it's
I've thought about it so much that it deserves to
be a nine, and I still really enjoy it, So
it's gonna be a nine for me for seven, uh

(01:34:55):
seven nine, we should have gone seven. It's gonna be
a seven for me seven eight nine. Yeah, oh my
god's at six seven eight nine?

Speaker 1 (01:35:07):
What even better? If the movie was at six six pm?
Is at six thirty? Is it six thirty Luminati?

Speaker 2 (01:35:14):
Okay, we have some work for you.

Speaker 1 (01:35:19):
Oh we forgot to get a coin.

Speaker 2 (01:35:21):
I'm gonna just use my keys. Well, you're gonna scratch
using my key. You use that key right here, okay,
should be up here. Make sure you spell it right
when you're doing this. Yeah, I was making trying to
make sure you knew that it was spelled like that.

(01:35:41):
There we go. Why don't you use why don't you
use the actual Okay? So we're for the audio listeners.
We're scratching off the one hundred movies poster that we
got Adam for Christmas, and uh, this is one hundred
movies that a lot of them we've seen before, but

(01:36:04):
we're scratching them off as we review them on our show.
So this marks two four. I thought it was the
seventh movie that we would review on this that would
be awesome.

Speaker 1 (01:36:13):
It was the eighth movie.

Speaker 2 (01:36:14):
Eighth movie that would have been a crazy coincidence. Yeah,
this is the eighth movie that we've done, one hundred movies.
This you can see it up there seven and Yeah,
so that's been an episode of seven. You can find
us on Instagram at the viewing Room Underscore. You can
also find us on Patreon at different Avenue Media. So, yeah,

(01:36:35):
thank you guys so much for watching. You have a
great day. Yeah,

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The Viewing Room Ep 24 - Se7en- Review and Analysis

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.css-14f5ked{margin:0;word-break:break-word;display:-webkit-box;-webkit-box-orient:vertical;box-orient:vertical;-webkit-line-clamp:2;overflow:hidden;}The Viewing Room Ep 24 - Se7en- Review and Analysis