August 3, 2025 • 102 mins
Will Leubner and Nik Freeburg join Isaac and Will on this 25th edition of the W Ritz Podcast, discussing great issues of theology like whether you want your entire family to die (tune in for context).
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Episode Transcript
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Speaker 1 (00:01):
Guess who's back back again. That's me, William Principle, back
from the mountains, back in good old Buffalo.
Speaker 2 (00:10):
Our app you're back in Isaac's baseman.
Speaker 3 (00:14):
Oh yeah, we got two.
Speaker 1 (00:17):
Very special guests today, so special the might there might
be some of our most special guests so far.
Speaker 2 (00:23):
I don't know.
Speaker 3 (00:24):
We're not talking about special ed here. We mean we
just like you like, they're.
Speaker 1 (00:27):
Like not even a minute and he already made classic.
Let's classic, you know Ritz podcasting. Anyway, let's let's introduce them.
Speaker 2 (00:37):
First off, we got.
Speaker 1 (00:38):
You know, you know, my brother, my brother in name
but brother from another mother. Will Lubner give him a
round of applause, and of course, and then on his
rights right hand man.
Speaker 3 (00:53):
We have Donald Trump.
Speaker 2 (00:55):
Be Donald Trump, China a great country. We don't really
like it. We're gonna give him tariffs. I'm just kidding.
Speaker 3 (01:06):
It's Nick Freeberg.
Speaker 1 (01:07):
No, that's actually Nick Freeberg. I know we probably fooled you.
That sounded just like Donald I got a really good impersonation.
Speaker 2 (01:14):
But yeah, it's okay, anyway, I'll bring it up later.
Speaker 1 (01:17):
We have some there's a very interesting group of people
because these are all people A lot at the table
are very like, well, has gone to a year of
Bible School. He's you know, he's got his like special
Bible in front of him, his special like hand hand
crafted by Yeah.
Speaker 2 (01:34):
Yeah, he's going to a year. He has an associates
degree in theology or bibiology. It's theology. Yeah. And then
we got Nick, who just you know, he loves the Bible.
I don't have any done every day.
Speaker 1 (01:44):
He's a future Bible School graduate. And if I graduate,
you know me, I've been going to church since you know,
for twenty years.
Speaker 2 (01:54):
I've been going to church for twenty years.
Speaker 3 (01:56):
Plus twenty years, so you're very you're very knowledgeable, of course.
Speaker 1 (02:00):
And then Isaac, he carries his Bible in a Bible
book bag, so you know smart, I have the Bible.
Speaker 2 (02:06):
You know he's smart.
Speaker 3 (02:07):
I have the Bible app installed on my phone.
Speaker 2 (02:09):
That's how you know too.
Speaker 3 (02:12):
Well, well, so you know that we're theological experts. I
will have it. Well if I'm not wrong, this is
like the first theological podcast we've done. That's like, obviously
you've talked about theology, but we came here knowing that
that was what the most of the podcast is going
to be about.
Speaker 1 (02:28):
Just like the first time where it was like the
main focus. Yeah, obviously, because we're both Christians, it's always
going to like bleed into every topic we talk about
because that's a foundation for our uh, foundation for our beliefs.
Speaker 3 (02:41):
Well yeah, and for our lives.
Speaker 2 (02:43):
Yeah, exactly, So we're going to talk about it.
Speaker 4 (02:45):
Right.
Speaker 2 (02:46):
So I got a couple of questions here, But.
Speaker 3 (02:50):
Can you keep your mouth close to the mic? Oh?
Speaker 1 (02:52):
Sorry, can you're not here this earbud? Actually I don't
hear anything out of it.
Speaker 2 (02:56):
Oh two fingers, well, two fingers and two fingers.
Speaker 4 (02:59):
Okay, there's gonna be more of the theological questions.
Speaker 1 (03:04):
Some are theological, some are historical, and some are some
Some of them are more like what would you do.
Speaker 2 (03:12):
If you were in this situation type thing?
Speaker 1 (03:14):
Like wait a minute, Oh i'n okay, Oh you have
an idea? Okay, we can unless you say the question.
Speaker 2 (03:21):
Maybe I'll bring it up. Okay.
Speaker 1 (03:23):
Well, yeah, so I've got I've got four four questions
I got focused on y'all are general biblical things. So
first and I'll ask this is what Isaac came up
with a nice little icebreaker here is what do you think?
Speaker 2 (03:40):
Maybe you should ask it?
Speaker 3 (03:40):
Because yeah, yeah. So I guess the question is is
it better to be radically and we're talking like the
extreme ends of both of these things here, just to
take both ideas to their logical extreme. I guess is
it better to be radically cessationalist, I you know, you
believe that there are no miracles done anymore and that
God is not really particularly active in his churches. Or
(04:03):
is it better to be radically Pentecostal, where you believe
that basically nothing changed since Jesus is walking the earth,
and that miracles are still being done through people and
all that.
Speaker 2 (04:14):
So what are your thoughts? This is for mession. All
three of you looked at me at the same time.
I think about that. I don't know. I'ven't looked into
that a whole lot. I mean, hmmm, I don't I
don't know if I'm stepping on Will's toes here. But
(04:35):
I don't know. If I don't know, if God doesn't
perform miracles anymore.
Speaker 3 (04:42):
I don't know.
Speaker 4 (04:42):
If I don't know, if God doesn't doesn't I don't know.
Speaker 2 (04:46):
I don't know what scripture has to say about that,
if it has anything to say about that. What do
we mean by miracles? What do we mean byrs like
I would say, I would say God can heal people
if he chooses to, I would call that a miracle.
Speaker 4 (04:59):
I would agree, of course.
Speaker 3 (05:00):
Yeah, but the argument from the cessationalists is that he just.
Speaker 1 (05:03):
Doesn't well from the extreme sensationalist right, wait wait wait,
could you like lay out their viewpoint? So sessationalists based
so like you know, in the Bible, like a specificality
around the Pentecosta talks about, you know, the apostles being
able to speak in tongues and prophesy, and then Paul says,
(05:24):
you know, if your gift is the prophesy, you prophesy.
So Pentecostals believe those are all things for today, but
sessationalists believe those things have all ceased. That's where the
name sessationalist comes from. You know, it's just ceasing.
Speaker 2 (05:37):
Okay, So not like God performing miracles, but like the
spiritual gifts of the spiritual feeling people are.
Speaker 4 (05:44):
I know, the Pentecostals, you, as a person, Isaac would
be if your spiritual gift was to heal, you had
the faith he like like that was your bet right
and you will other things. You had someone stand up
speaking in tongues, and you had say some interpreter, I
would probably more fall more sensationalists. I wouldn't say extreme,
(06:09):
because I believe prayer still works per ye to heal.
The prayer of a righteous man, you know, is powerful
that God. I mean, I've seen in my own life,
with having like a surgery, used to.
Speaker 3 (06:25):
Say and Mary that we weren't even talking about who
we pray to. We were just talking about people praying were.
Speaker 2 (06:34):
Not Catholicism is on the list. We'll talk about that later.
All right, all right, well go on, Sorry interrupt.
Speaker 4 (06:42):
But anyway, like I've seen in my own life with
the surgeries I've had, we're like, you know, I'm two
weeks away from going to Bible School and I have
like a ton of healing left to do which would
take months to heal. And like, God, if you want
me to go to Bible School, I'm gonna need this.
He yield like radically fast.
Speaker 3 (07:03):
Yeah.
Speaker 4 (07:03):
And went back to the doctor that next day and
there's about like a seven inch deep open wound that
I had that was completely healed up the next day overnight,
completely healed. So I would definitely believe that God still
is active in doing miracles and working in his church
through his Holy Spirit. But as far as what they
(07:25):
would say in Pentecostal church with people having specific gifts,
if I could read one Corinthians thirteen, this would be
I guess it'd be a little more sensationalist, but a
better middle ground. I'd say it says, starting hmm. First,
(07:48):
a charity never faileth King James. Where there be prophecies,
they shall fail. Whether there be tongues, they shall cease.
Whether there be knowledge, it shall vanish away. For we
know in part, and we prophesy in part. But when
that which is perfect is come, or some the reasons,
(08:10):
when the perfect comes, then that which is done in
that which is done in part shall be done away with.
And that word for perfect. A lot of different denominations
would say, oh, let's just talk about Jesus. When Jesus
comes back, you know, what's the need for all these
gifts and things. But in the Greek, this word for
(08:31):
perfect is a neutered noun, because we know the grammar
and scripture is inspired that it's a neuter noun which
can never refer If this was masculine, now it could
refer to a person, but saying the perfect being a
neutered noun always refers to an object, and we would
believe that is the completed inspired Word of God. Knowing
that all of these gifts used by Christ, used by
(08:55):
the apostles in the early Church, were for the specific
purpose of giving validation to those who were writing the
inspired word of God. To see Peter James John and say,
God is obviously with these men. God is obviously was
(09:16):
present with Christ. And because people are like, oh, these
people have a demon, but they're like, well, they're doing
the works of God here. These aren't the works of
the devil. So it gave validity to these men who
did the things only God could do, raise the dead,
heal the sick, be able to communicate in multiple languages
(09:37):
for the sole purpose of sharing the Gospel, having over
three thousand added to their numbers that day. That but
when it says, when the perfect comes, when newted, when
the inspired Word of God is completely written, all revelation
is over with, there is no more reason for prophecy,
and that it would be completed right well.
Speaker 3 (10:00):
And just from the practical point of view, the problem
that you get into when you go too much to
the Pentecostal side. And I'm not talking about believing that
God still heals people or you know, gives direction in
some kind of way for certain decisions. The problem that
you get with that is that you have people claiming
to know exactly what God wants at any given time
(10:22):
for everyone, and they start to preach on that, and
they start to take away from or add to the Bible,
and then you get into certain heresies that are not good.
Speaker 1 (10:32):
It's also to the extent of like, whether intentionally or not,
you make a liar out of yourself sometimes because like
something very common is like spiritual healing. Yeah, like oh,
I'll pray over you, or like the whole congregation will
pray over you and your you know, your broken leg
or your bum knee will be be healed.
Speaker 2 (10:52):
Have you guys seen those videos where it's like a
pastor and they'll like throw his arms at people and.
Speaker 1 (10:57):
They'll like, oh yeah, yeah, that's like on like the
outrageously Pentecostal side, but there are like more more held back,
but they're still like, you know what happens if you know,
the knee isn't healed, or like the injury isn't healed
even though they prayed over.
Speaker 2 (11:13):
Them, They'll they'll either say like, oh.
Speaker 1 (11:15):
You didn't have enough faith or something, which also like
why you're you're taking on that power you become you.
Speaker 3 (11:22):
Do what Jesus says when Jesus said not to do.
When you do it, you become the judge. I mean
the whole point of when Jesus said judging not unless
you be judged. Doesn't mean you make decisions about you know,
a person's character and how you should deal with them
based on that character. It means you have no idea
what's going on in their heart. So when someone isn't
healed in the way that you think they should be,
(11:42):
and you say, oh, it's because you didn't have enough faith,
you are judging the character of their heart. Like you know,
you're judging what only God can know and turn yourself
into God.
Speaker 4 (11:54):
And then yes, I would say I would land definitely
more sensationalist. You also have they when people in church
to be like, oh God, God told me, God told
me this, or he you know, revealed this to me
in a dream, or well some person.
Speaker 3 (12:11):
Just read and then they'll say something that the Bible
says the exact opposite of and you're like no, right.
Speaker 4 (12:17):
Even passa is that scripture is sufficient all life and
godliness that we don't if as far as I need
to hear from God or I want to know what
God wants me to do day to day, I don't
know what the will of God is for me. It's scripture.
It's God's spoken, written word to us.
Speaker 3 (12:37):
Right I say. I say everything I say about Pentecostalism
as someone who does believe that God will still actively
intervene in life sometimes once in a while, like you
said with your story about healing up, and you know,
maybe even will provide some supernatural direction for your life
(12:58):
that probably will come through scripture. But sometimes, I mean,
we've all had those light bulb moments when we're thinking
about something theological. I'd assume where we just suddenly we
see the will of God for us and we know
what the next step forward is. And to say that
that's not God is just as inaccurate as saying that
everything you think is from God is actually from God.
You know what I mean?
Speaker 2 (13:18):
Right?
Speaker 4 (13:20):
Yeah, So I guess that's that's where I would land. Yeah,
scripture has to be the authority. Its contrary to scripture,
then it's then it's not from God.
Speaker 2 (13:30):
From God, Yeah, true, I think there is.
Speaker 1 (13:32):
I mean, I think spiritual experiences can still happen because
I've heard testimonies that are like too compelling and to
like life changing to be denied. Right, Like, they're never
contradictory to scripture, and they're always in very like like
specific and extreme circumstances.
Speaker 3 (13:51):
Yeah, they're not as usual as the Pentecostal churches make
them out to be. It's not like that's another thing
you shouldn't just be. Because God may sometimes grant you
a spiritual experience for the purpose of healing or for
inspiration or whatever, that doesn't mean that that's what you
seek all the time. I don't think God actually wants
us to actively This is what Pentecostal teachers would usually
(14:14):
teach is that God wants you to actively seek out
and experience with him. Well, he wants you to follow
him and listen to him and maybe have a very
spiritual experience, but ultimately that's not what the point of
your life is. The point of your life is just
to glorify God and do his will and to enjoy
Him forever.
Speaker 4 (14:33):
So right, and when the Bible specific I forget a
where and then just Testament says it word for word.
First I want and wish I had used to have memorized,
but basically says, and this is the will of God
for you. And we'll pause and you're like, okay, here
it is big moment.
Speaker 2 (14:54):
What is it?
Speaker 4 (14:58):
It's that you would be conformed to the image of Christ.
They would be like Christ. Right, It's like, okay, you
could you know, be whatever you want to be in life.
Obviously within you know, pure good intentions, but your main
goal as far as what is the will God for
my life, is that you were conformed to the image
(15:20):
of Christ.
Speaker 3 (15:20):
Yeah, whatever line of work you choose, you know, do
that line of work and Christ would do it, or
just don't do it at all, I mean, if it's
something sinful, you know.
Speaker 1 (15:27):
And then right right, that reminds me of like there's
a book I read while I was gone for the
ten weeks. It's called Just Do Something by Kevin Deyong,
and basically, like the whole crux of the book was
just him saying modern Christians spend way too much time thinking,
(15:47):
oh is this God's plan for me? Or like looking
for like like an outline for their lives. That like
God has like hidden away somewhere, when in reality, that's
not really how it works. I mean, like you said
with that scripture, just be conformed to the image of
Christ and glorify them and all that you do, and
then you'll end up in a situation where God wants
(16:09):
you to be right because he said, like where in
our modern day and age, we're like we have like
it's like the the luxury but also a little bit
of the handicap of too many choices. Like, yeah, things
are so accessible nowadays, we can just like choose to
move wherever we want, within you know, reasonable ability, do
(16:30):
whatever job we want, Whereas like one hundred two hundred
years ago, you didn't really have all those options. You
kind of just like did what your family did, yeah,
and did it. There was no question of oh I'm
gonna like be a I'm gonna be like, you know,
a tech bro in you know, California. It's like, oh,
my dad works, you know, as a painter, So I'm
gonna pick up his stuff and I'm gonna glorify God
(16:53):
while doing it.
Speaker 3 (16:54):
Sure, and yeah, we've started. I think some Christians tell
themselves that there's only one path for them and if
they don't find out what it is from God, then
you're they're doing something wrong. There's one path to salvation
in one path to our father in heaven, which is
the Lord Jesus Christ. But other than that, if you're
willing to there, there are multiple paths for your live
(17:17):
life that are not wrong for you to choose. You know,
you just have to. What's important is that you choose
one of them and you do your best to glorify
God in that path so that you don't end up
standing at the crossroads of like, you know, three or
four options for what you're gonna do with your life.
And yes, it's not like you just stay there instead
of progressing.
Speaker 1 (17:33):
Yeah, it's not like the choice of whether or not
you're gonna go like go to like you be your
buff state, Like one of those is not like one
of those is not wrong. It is like the one
right answer. Yeah, it's like, oh, you chose buff states. Sorry,
that's not the path I want you.
Speaker 3 (17:50):
The rest of your life is gonna suck.
Speaker 4 (17:51):
Yeah, yeah, I know you're extra boring, but oh god,
it's all wrapped in up in what it looks like
to be like Christ is our secondary goal. Kind of
like what the youth director at our church is talking
about this morning is our obligation to preach the gospel.
What Jesus did when he was here. He's proclaimed the kingdom,
(18:14):
shared the good news that would eventually be brought by
his disciples, and has fallen out to our responsibility. That
part of being like Christ is not just I got
to sit in the corner and read this book and
just kind of put it in and you know how,
that's sure, that might, you know, help you when things
(18:35):
are tough for you. But a huge part of it
is getting your eyes off of yourself, becoming a servant
like Christ was a servant, and giving something valuable, the
most valuable thing to others that this is something that
you can do. And if you go to U be
your buff state. You know what I'm saying, like, yeah, yeah,
it's going to be.
Speaker 3 (18:56):
Well. And the funny thing is, if Jesus wanted us
to be moe and just hanging around in the corner
reading our Bible all the time, I think he probably
would have done that. But then the interesting thing is
we wouldn't know that he did that because he never
would have gone out and done anything. And that would
leave us all in.
Speaker 2 (19:13):
The dark, exactly.
Speaker 1 (19:15):
And it's like, also, if I'm ever looking like, oh,
how should I be living my life?
Speaker 2 (19:18):
I mean, but look at what Jesus was doing exactly.
Speaker 1 (19:21):
He was he was going places, he was traveling all
the time. He's talking to people, meeting people, helping people,
working for people.
Speaker 3 (19:28):
And a lot of his life was just a boring
career as a carpenter, if you want to put it
that way. You know, he didn't really start his monastery nothing,
but he didn't start his like actual full blown ministry
until he was in his thirty yea before that. It
wasn't like he was just waiting for years. He was
just working like a normal person. Obviously he was perfect
(19:49):
and all that he did, but it wasn't like he
was doing all these super exciting things that but you know,
you always have to be on the move or always
have to be doing these grand things. A lot of
serving go is just doing what.
Speaker 2 (20:00):
You can when you can and to the best of
your ability.
Speaker 3 (20:03):
Of course.
Speaker 1 (20:03):
Yeah, any way, Nick, you've been you've been kind of quiet.
Speaker 2 (20:07):
What are your thoughts on all this? What are my
thoughts on all this? I did have a little thing
pop in my head when you were talking about how
Jesus kind of sets the example of how we're supposed
to live, doesn't it talk about how Jesus grew in
wisdom as well.
Speaker 4 (20:24):
Wisdom, stature, in favor.
Speaker 2 (20:26):
With God, and man like just the level of relatability
that he kind of puts forward to us. I think
it's pretty amazing. It's just showing that, you know, you
don't have to be the most theologically sound person the
second you're a Christian. That's all you have to do
to be a Christian. You're gonna grow, Yeah, as you
(20:47):
go down that path and about the where God wants
you in life. How I found it to be is
like when I make decisions, I don't feel as though
like God is calling me to do this thing I'm
talking about like big things that I choose to do right.
But like when I do choose to do a big thing,
(21:09):
I've had many times where I've had this overwhelming feeling
of I shouldn't do this right. And I think that's
God talking to me, the Holy Spirit specific ocean, and
I've felt that at times too, because like I think God,
like you know, choose what you think you want to
do in life. And what you think God would want
(21:30):
you to do in life. But I feel like God
is going to let you know if that's not his
plan for you.
Speaker 3 (21:35):
Right, Yeah, You're going to end up where God wants
you ultimately.
Speaker 1 (21:38):
Yeah, as long as you're you know, pursuing him in
faith and righteousness. Of course, yes, because there's obvious you know,
you can obviously rebel against God in many many ways.
Speaker 3 (21:49):
Right, God doesn't want you to go deal drugs.
Speaker 2 (21:51):
Of course, A drugs for the economy.
Speaker 3 (21:55):
I mean, well, okay, I mean we got a capitalist
over here. Oh it was a great economic system. It's
not a very good the theological worldview, buddy.
Speaker 2 (22:05):
No, I don't think, well, well, when is Marxism ever?
Speaker 3 (22:11):
Worried?
Speaker 2 (22:11):
Donald Trump?
Speaker 3 (22:12):
Not what we're talking about.
Speaker 2 (22:14):
I don't see a lot of a lot of Nazis
around anymore. What is I'm trying to think, what is that?
What's like the opposite of capitalisms? I'm blanking social socialism?
When is socialism worked in history?
Speaker 4 (22:29):
Socialism breaks at least two of the Ten commandments coveting
and stealing.
Speaker 3 (22:36):
Dang, yeah, so.
Speaker 2 (22:38):
Oh I guess so.
Speaker 3 (22:40):
And yet the interesting thing about socialism is, like you
guys were just saying off the podcast a minute ago,
the if there were an economic system in heaven, it
would probably look more like socialism.
Speaker 2 (22:53):
Yeah, probably, but that's that's also a world where everybody's perfect, right,
That's why it Whoever has the biggest house, it's probably
gonna hold the biggest parties sharing right, right?
Speaker 3 (23:07):
What sharing parties?
Speaker 2 (23:10):
I'm just saying, I'm gonna have a bigger planet.
Speaker 4 (23:12):
Than you're sharing into the big two five. We'd love
to see it.
Speaker 1 (23:16):
Off the podcast. You're talking about Islam and I was
talking about Mormonism. What are you trying to say here?
Speaker 3 (23:20):
What's about?
Speaker 2 (23:21):
What do you mean let's talk about Islam Mormonism? You
mean the Church of Jesus Christ.
Speaker 3 (23:31):
Wait, but let's talk about We.
Speaker 2 (23:32):
Don't like being called Mormons anymore.
Speaker 4 (23:34):
Bad.
Speaker 2 (23:35):
It's a slurry, unloss. Mormons do not like being called
They don't what are they called. They call themselves the
Church Latter day Saints of Jesus Christ. And they think
if you if.
Speaker 1 (23:50):
You were to ask them, like how they identify, I
think they probably would say Christian.
Speaker 2 (23:53):
Maybe, oh yeah, they call themselves Christian. They call themselves Christians.
But oh my goodness, dude, my feed my feet of
one point was just it was all it was. What
was the account name was like the Church of Latter
Day Chad's or something.
Speaker 1 (24:07):
Oh my god, just a bunch of Joseph Instagram feed
was like like riddled with like those like take popular
character here and make them religious and make them talk
about theology, and I voice, I like, I'd like christ
like different Christian denominations in my feet. I had Catholics,
I had Muslims as it was, and I was like
(24:27):
always Peter Griffin like talking.
Speaker 2 (24:29):
About rest in Panny's feed taken over by Catholics.
Speaker 1 (24:34):
Me, Me and Nick have an Instagram group chat with
Danny Dimes called the called the Tripecta, and he'll send
us like reels all the time, and like the past
twenty reels have all been like Catholic.
Speaker 2 (24:46):
Really, yeah, we're worried about.
Speaker 3 (24:48):
Him, Danny's look. But anyway, I had I had a
teacher once who said that he believed Islam was just
a Christian heresy because it still has Jesus in it,
and well, they believe in the Christianity, but it gets
a lot of it wrong.
Speaker 1 (25:08):
They believe in the they believe in everything in the
Old Testament, and they believe Jesus was a prophet, but
not the son of God.
Speaker 2 (25:13):
Don't they believe the New Testament is corrupt or something?
Speaker 1 (25:16):
Yes, they believe that like Paul was like evil and
that he like.
Speaker 2 (25:22):
Yeah, exactly.
Speaker 1 (25:24):
They think Paul is evil because he disagrees with them
on everything.
Speaker 4 (25:28):
I don't know if they would, I don't know if
they would hold up the prophets or the writings. They
would they would, Oh, yeah, they say the sons of Abraham,
But then I think it would be Ishmael dissent.
Speaker 2 (25:42):
Oh, that that's right. I'm sure they got problem.
Speaker 1 (25:45):
Then the Intern was just talking about this. They believe
that Ishmael was that their descendants of Ishmael, and they
believe he was like the true like chosen son, not Isaac.
Speaker 4 (25:56):
When God said, you know, through you, Abraham, all the
nations of the earth will be black us that that
nation is actually Ishmael's descendants being the Middle East Muslims,
then just a plan where Isaac? So, I I'm not
sure what they would think of the prophets that which
is all Israel.
Speaker 2 (26:17):
That's true. I'm pretty sure they hold to the Old Testing.
Speaker 3 (26:21):
Maybe maybe us. You know, I'm real quick, So we
can tell the others, you can.
Speaker 2 (26:32):
Explain Muslim you know, well, I think you might be right.
I'm pretty sure they just hold the Torah.
Speaker 4 (26:37):
Actually actually yeah, I wrote a little paper at school
about it. Pretty much took the entire Muslim religion and
kind of through it in the garbage. I mean, that's
kind of the perspective for a lot of religions. If
you get Jesus right, all the other religions disappear.
Speaker 3 (26:57):
Better.
Speaker 2 (26:57):
Be careful here will your house might.
Speaker 4 (26:59):
Have under I might yeah, they might be New York.
Speaker 3 (27:04):
There's a car bomb outside your house right now.
Speaker 4 (27:08):
Yeah, pipe bomb in my mailbox. But I wrote out and.
Speaker 3 (27:13):
Then on the Mormon side, there are three women waiting
to seduce you until you can marry all three of them, and.
Speaker 2 (27:18):
They're all under Still the Muslims like actually.
Speaker 4 (27:24):
A bunch of like virgin women do something.
Speaker 3 (27:27):
Like that family eye clip where the bomber is promised
you know, seventy two virgins or whatever it is when
he gets to wonder and he gets up there and
it's a bunch of nerds playing video games, and he
just shouts, oh, it.
Speaker 4 (27:39):
Seems very much like something created by like like some
dude would make that up. I wonder what the perfect.
Speaker 3 (27:45):
I wonder what would snag a bunch of men.
Speaker 4 (27:47):
What would be like the perfect?
Speaker 2 (27:50):
Really really it's true though, that is true. That is true.
I guess Mohammad was a smart guy, but I mean he.
Speaker 3 (27:58):
Was very smart.
Speaker 1 (27:59):
O religion, man, Okay, we were just talking about this
off the podcast, but like, do we think that was
all him being conniving or do you think he was
just pressured by the devil to do it all?
Speaker 2 (28:12):
Good question. I don't think we can know.
Speaker 4 (28:14):
I mean, but there's a lot of figures like you
would have to not to bring up, you know, everyone's
favorite podcast topic. But Hitler had Like Hitler was like
his The biggest thing he tried to do is wipe
out God's chosen people. So many prophecies were saying, uh,
(28:36):
end times huny forty four thousand Jews converted Jews are
going to be pre together. Like if you can wipe
the Jews off the face of the planet, a lot
of the end time stuff just like that's a good
way to try to thwart God's plans. So see, like
this leader targeting the Jews. I mean, everyone hated the Jews,
but like, well, and.
Speaker 3 (28:55):
We know that spiritual powers are very active, yes, and
what what what religion has been more hostile to Christianity
and like mildly effective at you know, at least killing
a bunch of Christians.
Speaker 1 (29:08):
Very effective. Right, it's too it's too bad, I mean,
like too bad that you missed out on today's Sunday
school because the the what's what's the name of the
intern again, Ricky, Ricky, Sorry, I only I think get
to talk to them that much. I was gone most
of the summer, but Ricky did a very good job
like overviewing like like the history of like Islam, and
(29:32):
like it's grown. Islam has grown more in like the
past ten years than any other religion in the world. Right,
Like even if you like combine like Christianity and Catholics together,
if you combine those is like once some Islam is
still like grown more than double than the both of
them have.
Speaker 4 (29:51):
Used to be like one of the strongest Christian countries.
Speaker 1 (29:55):
And it's now like Islam has been the biggest oil
for Christianity for a long time.
Speaker 2 (30:01):
It still continues to be well.
Speaker 3 (30:03):
And obviously any religion that is not of God is
of the devil, of course, But I personally think that
Satan is probably more. Maybe God has given Satan more
rain to put the forces of darkness behind Islam than
any other religion, you know, because Islam is the biggest
enemy religion of Christianity.
Speaker 2 (30:23):
We might have some mixed opinions here on that false
religions anyone, What do you mean, Catholics?
Speaker 3 (30:33):
Oh my God, Okay.
Speaker 2 (30:37):
I'm not giving my opinion.
Speaker 1 (30:39):
I actually have a question related that. So, okay, do
you have more Do we have more to say on Islam?
Speaker 2 (30:45):
Or do we want to move on and move on?
Speaker 3 (30:48):
We just call them heretics and look at what their
societies bring to the world. That's one more point I
want to make. As Christian society ends up with places
like America and like the Renaissance in Europe, islam society
leads to a bunch of people oppressing women and shooting
each other in bombing good.
Speaker 2 (31:03):
Math though for what.
Speaker 3 (31:06):
Oh hey, I mean good coffee too. I mean, I
guess they got a couple of Satan. Satan has to
have something to entice people with.
Speaker 2 (31:16):
Dang it, my only vent.
Speaker 4 (31:20):
If you get Jesus right, you know, things will fall
in place.
Speaker 3 (31:25):
That's true.
Speaker 2 (31:25):
That's true, all right, So this on.
Speaker 1 (31:30):
This is a question that was posed to me last week. Yeah,
like about a week ago at work. And basically I've
seen a couple like the Catholics make this argument against Protestants, Like,
how do you respond to Catholics who would say, we
(31:51):
are like the Bible believing church that has been around
for two thousand years and Protestantism only started with Martin
Luther and the Reformace, which was about five hundred years ago.
So are you guys saying that God allowed the false
religion to be around for fifteen hundred years only for
(32:12):
it all for one guy or a couple of guys
bring Protestanism into it and supposedly the right religion.
Speaker 2 (32:21):
Later, I have something to say, and then I'll give
the ranks to Will because he probably knows a lot
more about early Protestant Protestant esque quotation marks. Throwing quotes
up with my fingers right now. Yeah, I was, I
was like, quoting the Catholic argument there. I don't well,
I would say, usually the Catholic argument there is like
our church has sturned firm and unchanged for two thousand years,
(32:47):
representing Christianity. And what I would say to that is,
there's been quite a few changes.
Speaker 3 (32:55):
Just to say no, you haven't.
Speaker 2 (32:56):
Yeah, the easiest thing, you've been wrong. A couple died,
the easiest.
Speaker 3 (33:02):
The easiest argument to make there is just you guys
might have been around for two thousand years, but you
changed a lot in two thousand years. That's right, Like
over time, it happens with every organization on Earth. Overtime,
things get corrupt, people have bad ideas, and then it
requires a reformation of serious proportion to bring things back
(33:24):
and ultimately.
Speaker 2 (33:26):
To the original text.
Speaker 4 (33:28):
There's over three thousand theological changes in the Book of
Mormon alterations over the years we don't.
Speaker 2 (33:35):
Care about as an example of an organization changing. Yeah,
but honestly, I was actually just talking to a friend
about this as two of you know, yes, yes, and uh,
you know, it's like, actually, sorry, you think I'm pulling
out the texts. I'm just going to go through it
(33:57):
because it's interesting.
Speaker 1 (34:00):
We should even call him up.
Speaker 3 (34:06):
Another thing is you can tell if we want to
go at things from a Catholic perspective, you can tell
a church by its fruits. So if you want to
argue that the first pope was Peter, that's fine. If
you want to do that. But look at Peter he was,
he was, you know, a rock solid guy for the church.
And now you get thank you, thank you, now you
(34:27):
get now you get here, and you get you get
popes like Francis or you know, any number of bad
popes overtime the organization change. They elected bad people, and
that can show you that, you know, maybe the Catholic
Church is not what it used to be.
Speaker 4 (34:41):
Also, when you elevate a guy, especially Vatic, and he
cannot lie theology. I know Catholics people that are going
to say some things.
Speaker 3 (34:50):
I know Catholics who have bent themselves backwards lately to
say no, no. The pope wasn't in a special chair,
so that one didn't count where he said that gay
people are actually fine and all this stuff.
Speaker 2 (35:00):
But like, I wonder how that process works.
Speaker 3 (35:02):
He said, the chair of lies instead of the truth.
Speaker 2 (35:04):
It like, what does he do he didn't get rid
of Does he go to his chair, start thinking about stuff,
Maybe something come out, he'll forget it.
Speaker 4 (35:12):
Like a golden chair? Is it like special chant changed?
Speaker 3 (35:16):
Nice? I think a chair.
Speaker 4 (35:19):
He's just really relaxed, just letting them, letting the brain.
Speaker 3 (35:23):
Yeah, yeah, today God said, oh.
Speaker 2 (35:29):
My gosh, but he needs a nap because.
Speaker 4 (35:33):
I guess, right, I guess unless Nicky were going to say.
Speaker 2 (35:36):
More, yeah, I was gonna say, I gotta send it
real again. Sorry Ethan gave, but I was senting real
should I be?
Speaker 4 (35:45):
Who cares?
Speaker 2 (35:46):
Okay?
Speaker 4 (35:48):
Center real?
Speaker 2 (35:48):
It is like, oh, you know, you really think Jesus
said I'm going to start my church and let me
be wrong for fifteen hundred years. Martin Luther is gonna
fix it all. And then while my respect was, I mean,
Martin Luther kind of fixed your church, and your church
kind of agreed with him. So like, what are we
saying here? Because indulgences for the crowd who doesn't know
(36:12):
what an indulgence.
Speaker 3 (36:13):
Was, to look at this Bible aristocrat over here.
Speaker 2 (36:18):
The Catholic Church sold these things called indulgences, and they
were basically a it was a remission of sense that
you could buy with money. And everyone knows this. You
can't really deny this that whoever the pope was at
the time was just doing this specifically to pay for
the Saints. Peter Ballista or whatever you called Catholic to
(36:41):
buy that agrees. It's a pretty pretty cool, pretty cool building.
I will say, like the architecture the means to get
it though I don't know, very very questionable. Yeah, I
mean like Martin Luther. You know, he wrote the ninety
five theses put on that door the church. Kind of
(37:01):
a gangster for that. Oh but uh behavior when he
did that, I basically split Europe into caused the pro
Reformation and pretty much backed the Catholic Church into a
corner and forced them to reform, which is what happened.
So I mean, yeah, Martin Luther kind of did fix
(37:21):
some stuff in a way.
Speaker 3 (37:23):
Well, another thing is that Martin Luther wasn't the first
guy who just said like, hey, the Catholic Church isn't
right like it. Yeah, he was the biggest one, but
there since the time of whenever the Catholics say their
church started, there have been people who disagreed with them,
and somehow the Lord has kept the church.
Speaker 2 (37:38):
They were just heavily persecuted hill nowadays.
Speaker 3 (37:41):
Just because the Catholic Church was the biggest, it doesn't
mean that Protestant Protestantism doesn't have roots that go just
as far back.
Speaker 2 (37:48):
Exactly, most people are probably not real Christians.
Speaker 3 (37:52):
And by the way, I say everything I say about
the Catholics as somebody who respects the Catholics and has
Catholic family, and I think that in some ways Catholics
are better servants of the Lord than some Protestant denominations are.
They're very firm on like abortion or you know, homosexuality.
I'm not talking about the church. I'm talking about the
people in the church. The Church I very much dislike,
(38:15):
but good solid Catholics I don't have a problem with.
And I think that they just get some stuff wrong,
and ultimately I consider them brothers and sisters in Christ.
I know that not everybody at this table would say that,
but I'd just like to say, I'm making fun of
your pope, but I still would.
Speaker 1 (38:31):
I respect you, And it's about you know, it's about
its history and you know, ironing out those points where
we collide with each other.
Speaker 2 (38:42):
Right, anything we want to say on the theology aspect,
elogy aspect, will.
Speaker 4 (38:51):
I guess where I come in. Yeah, let's here right
on the whole topic is you're all going the hell Well,
that's how I how I see when you're looking at
a certain sect of religion or a certain religion as
a whole, what the I guess the group that you
(39:15):
have to look at and judge strictly is the devote group.
Thinking of it this way, you have a bunch of Christians.
You have the ones who hold the Bible to the
ultimate authority, who obey the words of Christ and everything
the scriptures say and hold firm to it. And then
you have some other people in the church that they're like, oh, yeah,
(39:37):
I'm Christian, but you know, I don't really care what
the Old Testament. I mean, Jesus he I guess God like,
I don't really I don't really buy this stuff. I
kind of live like every everyone else. But you know,
I'm I'm Christian, I'm part of this church. I go
to church and say, right, you would look at that
person and be like, I'm sorry, buddy, you're not a Christian. Yeah,
(39:58):
that's just how it is. So when you're judging a religion,
it has to be okay, what is the devout group?
For Muslims have to do the religious people right, and
it's those devout groups are I guess I would say
that those are the people that are dedicated to their
Holy Book, that take their Holy Book and they live
(40:21):
like you know, they basically live by the book that
that devout group, and that's how we view Christians. Obviously,
you don't have to have like a briefing figured as
far as theology, but you have to have an understanding
of what it says and actually uphold it. And a
lot of the Catholic tradition, whether it's indulgences or the
(40:45):
Rosary or the ideas of Mary or any of the
other ideas that they have works. The groups that are
like you would say the church, the ones that have
the authority, the ones that are we are actually devoted.
You might have Catholics that are like, I could take
it or I don't really care what the pope says. Well,
(41:06):
it's like, okay, the devote group cares a lot about
what the pope says. This is like, then this is
the teaching of the churches that the pope is very important,
and all of these practices are very important. Where I
would say that they would differ in what Galatians would
call a different gospel is where if your practice is
(41:27):
your active practices, which you would call, you know, the
reverence of exercising your faith, are contrary to what the
Bible teaches, especially about Jesus. With indulgences meaning, Okay, we
need to give money to the church in order that
my family member has to serve less of a sentence
(41:50):
in purgatory, so they have to suffer less. I'll just
give money and that shortens up their time, which at
the core of it says Jesus his sacrifice was not enough. Money,
is Jesus what he did for having faith in Jesus
was not enough. We still have to, you know, pay
for some of our sin. So the core of that,
(42:11):
that is not the gospel. Because Galatians like one there
especially with works, because that's in the Catholic Church, that
was in the Jewish faith that your works helped to
make you writs is your works show that you know,
this is the exercise of your faith, which we would
believe to an extent. But where they take it with
their certain prayers, with their idea of Mary, with a
(42:32):
lot of the classical Catholic traditions that sure, your everyday
Catholic might not agree with a lot of them. But
the people that are tight to the book, tight to
the group the religion actually devoted, those people are practicing
these those people are saying you need to do all
of these things. And that's where I would say where
(42:52):
there would be a difference between Christians and Catholics, I
wouldn't at all put them in the same category, or
that a lot of Catholics are saved for the reason
if your practice, because your beliefs will influence how you act,
if your beliefs lead you to act in a way
(43:13):
that is contrary to what Jesus, either say Jesus was
not enough, or to say we you know we. I
guess some people would say, oh, we can, we can
pray directly to God. But you know, I'd rather have
my buddy Mary or one of these one of my
you know saints do it for me, because you know
that'll be better. I guess it all heads back again,
(43:35):
like I was saying, if you get Jesus right, the
rest will follow. So I would say there's a possibility
that there might be some people in the Catholic Church
that are genuinely saved and have a correct understanding, but
that'll either lead them to leave the church or in
their own devotion of time, make steps in the direction
(43:56):
of Okay, I don't need to pray the Rosary anymore.
I don't need just said I don't need. I mean
I can't think of the rest of the practices.
Speaker 1 (44:05):
But I don't think they don't practice indulgence in practice,
even by the Roman Catholics.
Speaker 4 (44:11):
I mean, I've been saying when it used to be like,
when your belief system leads you to do well, leads
you to believe things in your tradition that are contrary
to what the Word of God says, then I'm sorry,
that's that's a different gospel.
Speaker 1 (44:26):
Right, So Will agrees, Well, what was our agreed? I
think that I think that I think that I agreed
with that last point you made. I don't know what
do you guys have to say on it?
Speaker 3 (44:44):
Did you zone out my.
Speaker 2 (44:46):
Opinion and zone out too many times? I I don't know.
I really couldn't think of anything really wrong with what
Will said. I think, I don't know. I mean it
just is it Is it wrong to say the Catholic
(45:09):
Church is heretical? I don't think so.
Speaker 4 (45:14):
If they have, if they're worshiping a different Jesus and
it's evident through their practices.
Speaker 2 (45:19):
What do you mean different Jesus?
Speaker 4 (45:20):
Well, like with well their idea, I can't think of
the exact like what i'd have to It's I did
a whole study on this like six months ago. Some
Pollemis from a long time ago, but whatever. They don't
do indulgences anymore, but the teaching of indulgences discounts the
(45:42):
sacrifice in the atonement of Christ. We're kind of talking
about modern parts of the Rosary. There's like the fifteen
fifteen prayers to marry or something. I forget exactly how
that goes, but there's a lot of theology in there
that I've messed up in contrary to scripture.
Speaker 1 (46:00):
That's kind of like letting you take the rings because
you know, you're more familiar with like actual like like
modern Catholic practices than I am.
Speaker 4 (46:08):
Kind of.
Speaker 2 (46:10):
I mean, I was there. I've been to a Roman
Catholic youth group and they did pray the Rosary. Oh,
I guess I just hid myself on the mic. It
took like, oh my goodness, that took like thirty minutes,
and we repeated the like the same It was about
like a page and we repeated the same thing over
(46:31):
and over again. But it would like it was like this,
there was different segments of little bits and they would
like go through them and then like cross like across
which one they read each time it was weird. And
then there's also because like the beads on the rosary,
I think, like you go a bead at a time, Yeah,
(46:53):
to get through the whole thing. Yeah, that helps you
remember the prayers. I don't think. But like, I mean,
that was just straight up vane report Titians.
Speaker 1 (47:00):
I mean, yeah, if it's just repetition, like like, where's
the actual meaning behind your words? So I guess to
summarize my belief on it, I think I agree with
like the thesis of your your whole speech of as
long as like the genuine love for Jesus is there,
then you know, everything else will fall in place.
Speaker 4 (47:23):
That's what I would say. More the right the biblical
view of Jesus, I say, I just I love you know,
I love Jesus.
Speaker 3 (47:32):
But Jesus can be I don't think so though, because
Paul says that without love you have nothing. I mean love,
love of God is essential to live out what God
desires for you. You can know everything right about Jesus,
you could know, you know, you could be absolutely right
in all your theological beliefs, but you could still live
like a heathen and not even be saved. It's not
(47:53):
just that you get right the facts about Jesus is
that you get right your belief and your attitude towards
and your faith in Jesus.
Speaker 2 (48:02):
Yeah, belief, belief has been watered down. I think just
the word belief has been people.
Speaker 1 (48:08):
I think Christians use it as like the as like
the saving word. But that's not necessarily true, because you know,
even the Christians the common Verse, even the demons believe
in Christ.
Speaker 2 (48:21):
And tremble.
Speaker 3 (48:22):
Didn't I get in trouble for saying that last very
first podcast.
Speaker 1 (48:25):
You gotta cause a bunch of controversy because you you
just butchered the wording a little bit.
Speaker 3 (48:30):
That was it. I mean, okay, guys, I'm human. Who
I think Ben?
Speaker 2 (48:33):
Ben?
Speaker 3 (48:35):
She was totally looking for something to get me on.
Speaker 2 (48:38):
Yeah.
Speaker 3 (48:39):
Wait, Ben was on the cop that sits on the
road side any ways for you to go forty six
and forty five run somebody over.
Speaker 2 (48:51):
Anyway. But I'm surprised Ben game here. You're surprised you
didn't know he came on.
Speaker 4 (48:58):
Ago?
Speaker 3 (48:59):
It was it was like, why would you be surprised
that Ben wanted to share his opinion?
Speaker 2 (49:06):
Uh, you should listen to it. It was a good episode.
Speaker 3 (49:09):
It was a episode.
Speaker 2 (49:12):
What does this guy think he is?
Speaker 3 (49:19):
Anyway? What else?
Speaker 1 (49:23):
I was just gonna say, I didn't get to finish
my point about talking about well earlier.
Speaker 2 (49:30):
Shoot, where where we are we holding too that people
can get saved from a false gospel? No?
Speaker 1 (49:37):
No, but I think I think there's a lot of
I guess my thing is like, I feel like there's
a lot of Catholic practices that don't necessarily get Jesus wrong.
Maybe they're misled and I disagree with them.
Speaker 2 (49:51):
But well a lot of them are just kind of confused,
like a specifically about Jesus. Are they getting wrong? Yeah,
that's I guess.
Speaker 4 (50:00):
I'd have to pull up some specific examples.
Speaker 3 (50:02):
Well, like a lot of the Catholic traditions are just
adding on, like confession is not a bad thing at all.
It just you know, like the act of going to confessions.
Speaker 2 (50:10):
Well, the belief that you need to confess to a
priest right wrong on the sacraments, it's not a bad
thing to do.
Speaker 3 (50:17):
It's just as soon as you elevate it to the
place of you need to do this. You're adding on
to scripture, which is a common theme throughout Catholic theology
is that they get a lot of the baseline ideas right,
and then they add to them. And if they just
took away the necessity of certain traditions, they would be fine.
Speaker 4 (50:33):
Romans, which I guess would be kind of connected to
Jesus when it says like if any man sins, we
have an advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ, who's a
propitiation for our sins, but not on the eyes, but
also the whole world, like your necessity, like the necessities
I need to go to a priest to get my
sins forgiven. Bible says that Jesus is our high priest right,
(50:56):
so obviously you're not going to him, so he is
not elevated as whatever.
Speaker 2 (51:00):
Where does it say only Jesus is the mediator between
us and the Father or something like that.
Speaker 4 (51:05):
Media like what would.
Speaker 2 (51:08):
Even I read that after the Bible study even say
to that, really, I.
Speaker 3 (51:19):
Would probably say something like sometimes Jesus.
Speaker 1 (51:21):
So I guess to summarize my own opinion on the
Catholic Church, it's probably very similar to to Isaac's. Is
I disagree with like the institution on most things, and
I think it's there's a lot of heresy there. But
I think a lot of the Catholics I've talked to,
a lot of the Catholics I know very well, have
from what I've seen, a very genuine love for Jesus,
(51:41):
and a lot of what they participate in terms of
the Catholic practices.
Speaker 3 (51:45):
Is more out of you know, either they enjoying the tradition.
Speaker 1 (51:50):
Enjoying the tradition, or it's seeking reverence or just like
they like they like the almost like the I guess
like the I don't know the word for it, but
I guess like because it feels almost like you're doing
so it feels like feels more respectful.
Speaker 2 (52:08):
Yeah, I've heard that a lot about Orthodox churches, Eastern Orthodox. Yeah,
the Orthodox Churches are like they're kind of like the
in between Catholic and.
Speaker 3 (52:17):
Get the Anglicans, which are really half between Protestantism and Catholic.
Speaker 2 (52:21):
There is a good point, yeah, you know, like the
the Catholic Church. The whole thing about the Catholic Church
being right for two thousand years or whatever, like did
they split with the Orthodox Church? And when anyone anyone
know the date off the Dome? I don't know that
off the dome.
Speaker 3 (52:35):
Forget, but like the Orthodoxy. The Orthodox Church is very
ancient too.
Speaker 1 (52:41):
I guess what you're saying, yeah, and it's yeah, the
Catholic Church wasn't the only like Christian.
Speaker 4 (52:46):
They don't the does the Catholic Church think that they
were the only like they were?
Speaker 2 (52:53):
They think it's all they think that they were.
Speaker 1 (52:57):
They think that they were the church that stemmed directly
from one of Christ's apostles being down Peter like they
think Peter.
Speaker 4 (53:02):
I don't even know if that verse in Matthew sixteen
is I would hold a different interpretation of that vice.
Speaker 2 (53:09):
Oh really, really, I would disagree.
Speaker 4 (53:11):
You disagree with that interpretation.
Speaker 2 (53:13):
You're going to the to the like on the yeah,
the rock where I will build my church.
Speaker 3 (53:19):
But the whole problem with that is that where Paul says,
you know, some follow Apollos and some follow this guy,
and some follow this guy. He starts to say, you know,
there's one church, Like, you don't get a church. You
don't get a church based on what on your token apostle,
you know what I mean, Like Presbyterians aren't derived from
like Matthew or something. Right, there's one church. It's the
Church of Jesus Christ, not the Church of Jesus Christ
(53:41):
of Latter Day.
Speaker 1 (53:41):
Saying, it's like, well, like the spiritual Church, there's it's
not there's not one physical church. There's the spiritual Church
body which we are all saved Christians are a part of. Right,
all born again Christians are a part of.
Speaker 4 (53:53):
Cool.
Speaker 2 (53:53):
Thing about the split though with the Catholic Church and
the Orthodox churches. You know why they split, It's because
of for for the Eucharist, it was on eleven bread
or eleven bread, That's why they split. I'm pretty sure
flat no, it's supposed to be puppy.
Speaker 4 (54:14):
I prefer about we need those Hawaiian ross.
Speaker 2 (54:17):
If it's okay, if it's non bread, I prefer non bread.
Non bread is not love not.
Speaker 4 (54:23):
I'm pretty sure.
Speaker 2 (54:24):
I'm it's like like but flat bread, like it's like
it's like a pita. I love bread. It's basically like
a pita. But it's like Indian.
Speaker 3 (54:37):
Every time a Baptist church splits, by the way, it's
because somebody didn't like what they brought, what somebody else
brought to the church luncheon.
Speaker 2 (54:43):
Yeah, honestly, I just want I just want to listen
to a podcast about that, really church splitting and stuff
and how like we could not be making new denominations
and splitting churches because you don't like the socks the
guy where something like that.
Speaker 1 (55:01):
Yeah, they they they're a little bit too a modest
at this church. We need to split again and promote
more modesty. They were wearing shorts, the women were wearing pants. Unforgivable, unforgivable.
Speaker 2 (55:15):
There's a topic there head coverings. Should women be wearing
headcoverings in church? I say, I really think so, because
from what I've gotten, the hair is the head covering. Yeah,
maybe it is a head covering unless you're ball from
That's why it says it's the pestable for a woman
(55:36):
that was short hair or whatever, but.
Speaker 1 (55:38):
Does say that's it also says, either like in the
same passage or somewhere else, like the glory of a
woman woman is in her hair, right, or something like that.
Speaker 4 (55:49):
I don't I don't have enough of a stance on
head coverings.
Speaker 1 (55:53):
And yeah, my my understanding has always been mixed, where
it's like it's not talking about a physical like hat
or something, it's talking about having hair that's well kept, honorable. Yeah, anyway,
a new job still a little or less Mormonism Mormonism.
(56:15):
We don't need to go through every single we don't church.
There's here's like a more. I guess here's a more,
like I guess a brain like a Christian brain teaser.
So this one is this question. So I went to
an online Bible online like Bible high school, like like
Christian high schools.
Speaker 2 (56:37):
No, it was reformed. It wasn't like it didn't have
liked reformed.
Speaker 3 (56:42):
I'm pretty sure it's reformed.
Speaker 2 (56:43):
Yeah, they might, I think.
Speaker 4 (56:46):
Reformed Christian high Reformed high school.
Speaker 2 (56:50):
Yeah, I don't know. They're high school. Yeah, they identify
as reformed, but I don't think.
Speaker 1 (56:57):
I don't think like it leads into the teaching very
much because most of the students there are not reformed.
Speaker 2 (57:03):
Yeah, I know most of them were.
Speaker 3 (57:04):
Most Christians aren't reformed.
Speaker 2 (57:06):
I think you're probably right about that.
Speaker 1 (57:08):
I don't know statistics, but one of the teachers in
one of the class like posed this question off the
cuff to the students. And this is when I was
like like fifteen years old. So I don't know, I
don't know, I don't know anything.
Speaker 2 (57:20):
I don't know how to answer it.
Speaker 1 (57:21):
But this is this is the one I've I've always
been curious about how certain Christians will answer it. So,
imagine you are a pastor of a church. Okay, imagine
you're a pastor of a church and the lesbian couple.
Speaker 3 (57:35):
What denomination am I?
Speaker 2 (57:38):
Whatever? Done?
Speaker 3 (57:39):
I'm just gonna be like thet you guys here, the pastor,
you guys want to preach the sermon today.
Speaker 2 (57:43):
You're the pastor.
Speaker 4 (57:44):
You know the church.
Speaker 2 (57:45):
You built the church, You built it, You built the
ur yourself, you church.
Speaker 1 (57:53):
Anyway, So a lesbian couple who have already adopted a
child for several years, they come into the church and
they sit down on the sermon and they say they
want to be a part of the church.
Speaker 2 (58:06):
What do you do in that situation?
Speaker 3 (58:08):
That's a really hard one because well, first of all,
let me start by saying I don't think that's going
to happen. I just want to say, like people, this
is this is a situation that is not going to happen.
Speaker 2 (58:24):
I feel like I would disagree to you.
Speaker 4 (58:28):
I feel like that's looking for a sense of spirituality.
Speaker 1 (58:31):
Yeah, I feel like that's also no offense, a little
bit of a cop out because I guess why why
couldn't it happen?
Speaker 3 (58:38):
My point is that, Well, I guess it's extremely unlikely
to happen, because what lesbian couple, what lesbian couple that's
already adopted a child, is suddenly going to be like, oh,
let's go to church.
Speaker 1 (58:47):
Mostly are like the question for that to have happened
to take example, like what if like they just grew
up never really learning about it. Like the only things
that here is like, oh, like the church has like
historically not been kind to Like that's why they wouldn't
want But like they they like come to the general
(59:09):
revelationation that oh I feel convicted that there's a God,
or like I'm seeing all this evidence that there has
to be a God.
Speaker 4 (59:19):
Or they just want some some kind of spirituality.
Speaker 1 (59:21):
Yeah, they want some kind of spirituality. Like let's you know,
let's go visit a church and see what, you know,
see what happens.
Speaker 3 (59:29):
I would hope that if I'm preaching the sermon, that
would be enough to make them realize, oh, this church
is not spiritual, and hopefully from there they would go, well,
this church isn't spiritual. That's a good thing. It's more
I'm not going to get that spiritual feeling here. I
actually have to decide if I want to be a Christian,
if I'm going to stay at this church, so hopefully
(59:49):
that's where they would come to. But if they just
were like, we're going to keep living in sin and
raising this kid, I would be like, I mean, you
can come back to church, you can listen to the sermon,
but you're I'm not You're not getting involved in anything here,
you know, until you until you become Christians. And I
(01:00:11):
don't know what I would advise them to do on
the kid. I mean, that is a tough one. Like
the morally correct thing to do, I guess would be
to find an actual functional family for the child. But
it's like that's where you get into the weeds with
Like it's so complicated depending on how long the child
has already been with them, whether it wants to stay
(01:00:31):
with them, there are lots of familiar connections there. I mean,
the right thing to do, like I said, would be
to get the child the proper family.
Speaker 2 (01:00:39):
How old is a child?
Speaker 3 (01:00:40):
Like, that's just say that, like five years old is
the child?
Speaker 4 (01:00:44):
Much of this doesn't matter if they have this child.
Speaker 2 (01:00:47):
As far as the question, well.
Speaker 1 (01:00:49):
That's that's how it was presented to me when I
was first asked, I think, I think my teacher is
a very like, very like smart man. He wrote like
books on rhetoric and logic, like some of the textbooks
for the school, so he's like he's big on like
logical problems. I think he put that in there because
like it's not like it makes it harder to like
(01:01:12):
I guess break them up in a sense, like yeah,
it does, like because like they're already like settled down
with the child. Like how you're gonna like, how are
you gonna go up and tell them you have to
like break this apart because it's not biblical, which that's
like true, but like how do you tell somebody who
as a kid that like that? Whereas like if like
(01:01:33):
there was just like a gay type couple with no
children who came in, if they're willing to listen and
they were receptive, you could say this isn't biblical, it
would be easier for them to break it apart. But
if there's a child involved, that makes it harder because
you can't because like most people agree that like children
need like a strong family, strong healthy family, Like most
(01:01:54):
people would would a father, yeah, yeah, exactly, a father
and everything.
Speaker 4 (01:02:00):
Yeah, I would say, I would agree with mister mister
Zilbaauer on uh, pretty much everything. I guess the way
I would approach it. They came in kind of same
thing I'd allow obviously, I want them saves me a
lot of work from then you know, they're sitting here
hearing it rather than me going to find them to
(01:02:22):
hear it. Say, it saves me some time. Sure, But
as far as if they after the like oh this
is this is pretty cool. I mean, they're not really
willing to give up any their lifestyle or anything. They're like, hey,
we want to join a church because we had a
situation exactly like this at our church where one of
my mom's friends not saved, and it came to our
church and she loved the people. She was like, these
(01:02:44):
people are great. They're so friendly. Everyone's so nice. They're
like they want to make me meals, come help me
clean up my house, and I want to be around
these people. I'm that's sold in the whole Jesus thing.
But I like the people, and so she wanted to
be a member of the church. Joined the church and
sat down my mom and are pastor and basically explain
(01:03:05):
to where the church is the Body of Christ, children
of God. This is for our main job here is
for Christians to meet together, to encourage each other and
to help each other.
Speaker 3 (01:03:21):
Yeah, it's not a social club.
Speaker 4 (01:03:22):
It's not. Obviously, people are welcome to come and hear
the gospel and respond, but like you said, there's not
You're not going to be involved in things if your
goal and your desire is contrary to the goals of
those around you who are trying to further the Gospel
and their community, further the Gospel in the hearts of
(01:03:44):
their children and help each other. Like I forget exactly
where it talks about. But if Paul or someone New
Testament says, like it's kind of crazy, but they say,
prefer Christian. If you have if you between a Christian
and non Christian and favor the Christian, prefer the Christian.
Take care of your fellow brother and sister in Christ.
(01:04:06):
Obviously there is room to help the sick and the
needy and to be salt and light in the world.
But as far as the church goes, this is a
meeting for those who have accepted Christ, and you cannot
be a part of it if your lifestyle and your
belief system is contrary to that, You're welcome to come
(01:04:28):
and respond and receive Christ. It's going to happen. Is
the Holy Spirit's going to show you the way that
you're living is wrong. Sure, you're gonna have to make
a choice.
Speaker 3 (01:04:37):
S Let me add on to your question, what if
all that we mentioned already happens, and then on top
of all that, they start instead of just coming and absorbing,
they start actively teaching, you know, actively trying to change
people's minds that hey, we're not sitting. They start kind
of infiltrating the church. The kid starts talking about as
(01:04:58):
two mommies to other kids, like it's normal, and they
start to think it's normal, and they start killing that.
In that case, I think, like when, at what point
do you kick them out?
Speaker 2 (01:05:06):
I think at that there, I think at that point,
I think that's the line.
Speaker 1 (01:05:09):
Yeah, Like like if I are in the situation, it
would be very similar to that, where it's like I
would let them come because you know, it's I think
it's unbiblical to like not let somebody hear the teaching
of God, and I would make it clear that the
way they're living is not you know, biblical, and it's
not approved by the Bible, and because of that, you
can't you know, participate in any you can't be involved
(01:05:32):
in the church until you know something's done about it.
And if you're you know, if you want to make
steps to improve on that, we're here to help. And
we are here to help, you know, find a better
place for the child, or you know, help out with
the child. But you know, you guys got to take
that first step. But you're welcome to come and listen
to the sermons whenever. But if it gets to the
point where they try to actively work against the teachings
(01:05:55):
of my church, because in this situation, I'm I'm the
pastor of like work against the eaching of my church
and like go against my authority. In that case, like
church discipline is necessary, and I need to say it's
sorry if you're gonna.
Speaker 3 (01:06:06):
Be if they start telling doing this, then they start
to leave. If they start telling your Mormon congregation that
it's not sinful to drink hot caffeinated drinks, get out straight,
get out kick the baseball.
Speaker 2 (01:06:22):
No, you guess it, very very insightful answers to that, glad.
Speaker 4 (01:06:28):
Give anything to an or we would go into the
next kind of covered.
Speaker 2 (01:06:31):
It or I think we think we got all the
main points. Don't think we all pretty much agree on that. Yeah, yeah,
we wanna, we wanna kind of. I don't know if
meet people where they're at is the right word, but
we certainly want to expose people to the Gospel no
matter where they are at in life. Doesn't mean we're
(01:06:54):
going to conform to their worldview and help them fit
in just to get them in there, because the true church,
the church is the congregation of believers, not believers, and
some other writers that's what it is.
Speaker 4 (01:07:07):
There's even some Christs they're like, oh, well, I want
this person to get safe, so I'm going to bring
them to church with me. Sounds fine when it seems.
Speaker 3 (01:07:15):
Like a fine idea, that is a fine idea.
Speaker 4 (01:07:17):
It's just but it's responsibility the individual. They should take
that time and be like, Okay, I am going to
share the Gospel with this individual.
Speaker 3 (01:07:27):
Well, and it's not even necessarily the responsibility of the
church to only be evangelistic, right, A lot of it
is to build I mean, that's why the church exists
for the edification of other Christians. And obviously you never
want to ignore the great commission and that you know,
of course, any good church, you're going to hear the
word of the Gospel every week throughout the service.
Speaker 4 (01:07:51):
Christ centered.
Speaker 3 (01:07:52):
It's going to be very Christ's centered. But there are
a lot of other aspects to a church that the
church should have for the uh, the benefit of those
who are already you know, believing in Christ. Because if
more seasoned Christians keep coming back only to hear the gospel.
I mean, it's great to hear the Gospel over and
over again, but there needs to be more than that
(01:08:15):
to help people grow in their faith and become more
godly as well.
Speaker 2 (01:08:20):
Yeah, what do you got for us? Will those are
all like the like the really deep deep ones A
little you know, I think I's got something.
Speaker 3 (01:08:35):
This is something stupid, I know, I think it's serious.
Speaker 2 (01:08:44):
I have conversed with my dear friend, uh, well, person
will hear about this already, and we had quite a
conversation about it. I was kind of half asleep riding
a bike.
Speaker 3 (01:08:58):
I was.
Speaker 2 (01:08:59):
I was fearing for his life while we're having But
all right, I'll just say it here.
Speaker 3 (01:09:04):
It is here, it is.
Speaker 2 (01:09:05):
Here's a big question. If you were put into a
situation where you were being heavily persecuted, yes, and told
that unless you deny Christ, people are gonna torture your
entire family and kill them. And you gotta watch. We'll
throw that in there too, you gotta watch. Shikes, what
do you do because as we know, scripture says those
(01:09:28):
who deny me, I deny the Father, or they will
be denied. Yeah, if you deny me, I will deny
you in the face of the Father. Correct, Because and
this isn't like a I don't think this is like
a rare scenario because if you look at church history, yeah,
there's a lot of cases, especially during like I mean,
(01:09:49):
I was just listening to a podcast about this. I
mean the church. Actually, people in the church got into
a big fight over this because people would hold to
that and not deny Christ, and then they would have
people in the church, they would have family members who
died for that. Because the Romans, one of the things
(01:10:09):
that I forget the Roman emperor's name, it might have
been nearro isn't narrow. He uh basically put it in
there that you have to deny your faith otherwise. I mean,
in a lot of cases you were killed or you
were just denied. This is a different emperor that did this,
but you were denied basically this thing that allowed you
(01:10:31):
to buy and sell goods yea, which was a pretty
big thing back in the day. Yeah, but uh, basically
that your church society and the church split over this
because they would have some people have family members who
died for that, and then other people weren't uphold to
(01:10:52):
that part of scripture. And you know, you can see
where that would go because like, what are you going
to think of the person who didn't do what your
family member did? Your family member died horrifically because of it.
Speaker 3 (01:11:03):
Right, Well, the thing about this question, and this is
going to sound really harsh, but ultimately, the glory of
God is worth the death of people. I mean that
is what the whole human race was created to do,
is glorify God. Now, practically speaking, would I actually be like, oh, yeah,
(01:11:26):
you can kill me and I'm my whole family.
Speaker 2 (01:11:28):
I don't die your family, oh just my family.
Speaker 3 (01:11:31):
I mean, denying Christ is sin, and that's something that
we should try and avoid at all costs. Practically, I've
denied God for a lot less. I'm just going to
say that there have been time every time we sin,
we're denying God for way less than you know, we're
going to torture your family.
Speaker 2 (01:11:51):
Yeah, oftentimes it's for our unselfish reason.
Speaker 3 (01:11:55):
So without the grace of God. And I mean I'm
talking like I would need a a lot a lot
of grace and a lot of help, I would probably
just say, all right, you know what, guys, lay off
and don't kill my family. To be honest, I know
myself and that's what my flesh would do. And I
mean I would of course pray for God's help, and
(01:12:17):
with the Holy Spirit's help, I would be brave enough
to say I can't. I can't do that. I can't
deny my Lord and Savior because ultimately Jesus loves me
more than my family does. He's done so much more
for me than my family has. It's just this is
a very harsh question because you feel like such a
bad person for saying, well, yeah, you can kill my
(01:12:37):
whole family or.
Speaker 1 (01:12:38):
Bad for either one, because it's like, yeah, I mean,
that's kind of the point of the question. Is it's
supposed to be like you're stuck between two bad outcomes, right, It's.
Speaker 3 (01:12:47):
Like you got to choose a lesser of two evil
But this goes back to what we were talking about earlier,
is that if you do, if you to serve God,
his will will be done ultimately. And that's that's really
the only comforting thing you can have if you're going
to say, well, you can kill my whole family, is
that God's will is going to be done.
Speaker 4 (01:13:07):
Your integrity before God has been pure right.
Speaker 3 (01:13:11):
And it's a harsh saying, but I think that is
ultimately more important than the lives of mortals. And hopefully
your family is Christian too, so at least you know
that you're going to see them again.
Speaker 2 (01:13:24):
But what if they're not Christian? What if you.
Speaker 3 (01:13:29):
I mean, because then you know what, then that's uh,
that's even harder. Man. You can't. You can't even if I.
Speaker 1 (01:13:41):
Like, if you have non Christian family, like saying like
allowing them to die your ship being damning well.
Speaker 3 (01:13:48):
And and if it were you dying, they could look
at you and be like, man, this guy really believed
maybe I should turn around if you if they see
being like you can die for me, then like this
guy's was a jerk.
Speaker 4 (01:14:00):
This religion, I guess the only difference is one it
wouldn't be the choice of that Christian decide. Oh wait,
if it was I mean I should be like, okay,
kill us instead of our family.
Speaker 2 (01:14:10):
Obviously, if I was given opportunity to do that. But
I don't.
Speaker 3 (01:14:14):
And this.
Speaker 4 (01:14:16):
Not as far as what I would say as far
as the family that isn't saved, is they also have
their personal responsibility before God, like they have made their
choices up until this point. I mean, this is your
life can be taken from you from in an instant.
This might just happen that instant.
Speaker 2 (01:14:35):
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (01:14:35):
And it also says in the Bible like everybody like
my truth is like evident to all people, so nobody
is like without excuse.
Speaker 4 (01:14:43):
Yeah, I have a follow up question. It's like this
point of the question, except okay, So this is this,
This was an actual issue that happened in the early church.
This is something they're trying to figure out. What if
a person in the church, Christian in the church denies
(01:15:05):
Jesus says, whatever if we pick it backing off of that,
I don't want my family coach, I'm just going to
deny Christ. I don't or I don't want to die.
I'm just gonna deny them. They end up making it
through the persecution without dying, obviously, because if they denounce
Christ and they're fine, sure, they end up making it
through Persecution's over, you have your under either's I forget
(01:15:31):
which which emperor put in I should notice put in
like a time of peace for the Christians. Constantine it
was like we need peace for Christians. Okay, So imagine this.
You have all those people that denied under Nero that lived,
(01:15:51):
they come back and they're like, hey, we want to
we want to rejoin the church. Do you let them
or do not? They denied Christ.
Speaker 3 (01:15:58):
During I would, I would argue just because of the
example of Peter.
Speaker 2 (01:16:02):
Yeah, that's what I've.
Speaker 3 (01:16:05):
Yeah, exactly, But I mean, the interesting thing is that
Christianity actually spreads better when there's tons of persecution Philippines,
It's true. So will those people actually come back to
the church or will they be like, oh, this is
great now I can now I now we don't have
an idiot emperor anymore. And I don't I don't need it.
Speaker 4 (01:16:23):
But what happens I guess because their their issue which
I forget which book talks about it or just early
church history, but they're generally trying to figure out, Okay,
what if this happens again? What if we have another guy,
Are you just going to ditch all of us again
like you did the first point and family that dies
because you rejected?
Speaker 2 (01:16:41):
I think good context to have in this scenario as well,
is like kind of the viewpoint on this was martyrdom
was kind of a gift from God in some sense.
Speaker 3 (01:16:50):
I guess. I guess this question is really one that
we ask ourselves because just just at a much bigger scale, right,
like to live is Christ? Or every time we leaves Christ,
every time we sin and come back, God could say
the same thing to us, like, well, I don't know
that you're not going to do that again, so I'm
not going to let you back in the right. And
(01:17:13):
it's the same thing just at a much larger scale
for the people who deny Christ and then come back.
And I mean, obviously that's cowardice and you shouldn't have
done that, and you should have just lived for your
savior and died for your savior. But it's very I
think it's actually pretty unfair from our point of view
if we say to those people, well, you guys, are
(01:17:34):
you guys denied Christ once and now you can't come back.
That's not That's not what God wants for us.
Speaker 1 (01:17:40):
To judge right, so don't experience anything like that. It's
really hard for us to say this in our modern context.
Speaker 2 (01:17:50):
Like Christians are obviously still persecuted and in contes well
even in America in different ways more more in like
social ways, they're kind of ostracized.
Speaker 4 (01:18:02):
But that's people just don't like them.
Speaker 2 (01:18:06):
I mean, it's like who who hates on? I mean,
this is just I was, This is not this is
not me speaking here. I've seen heard a bunch of
people say this, But who hates on Islam or whoever?
As much as people hate on does.
Speaker 4 (01:18:21):
But it's like I.
Speaker 2 (01:18:23):
Try not to call that persecution because like persecution like
early Church is like very different.
Speaker 1 (01:18:30):
I will, like people make fun of us for believing
in this big deal, Like what are your words gonna
do to me? Like I'm like, I'm physically fine, I
can live my best life. Otherwise, like people in the
early Church or like during the times of the Romans,
like they were like they were constant like worry of
death and like going hungry. We just because of their
(01:18:52):
belief for Christ, we just have.
Speaker 3 (01:18:54):
Intolerance where it is very different.
Speaker 2 (01:18:57):
We get is like we get like made fun of
for believing.
Speaker 4 (01:19:00):
Yeah, okay that or when I evangelizing afraid of Christ
they deep down now just like I don't want to
talk to you. Like it's hitting out tracks with some
friends and I was like, oh, would you like this track?
Like what's it about? So it goes to the Gospel
of Jesus Christ, how it's changed, and they're like, no,
We'll keep walking.
Speaker 3 (01:19:19):
Once in a while, you end up with the government,
you know, trying to look for things that like Christian
advocus see groups do wrong and as far as taxes
or whatever. You know, there's some of that going on
in the United States, but it's not it's nothing.
Speaker 4 (01:19:33):
Like all you get is like, oh, I'm not patriotic.
Speaker 3 (01:19:36):
Yeah, it's like guess what, guys, It's like, you guys
are hateful.
Speaker 4 (01:19:40):
It's the worst it's going to happen to us here.
Speaker 3 (01:19:42):
Yeah.
Speaker 4 (01:19:42):
Yeah, so very blessed, but honest and just that's a
question there to deal with first century but I I
guess I would agree.
Speaker 2 (01:19:52):
I guess a modern example would be those twenty one
people who died in I don't know where it was
where they were kill by Isis because they wouldn't deny
Christ and what I'm talking about. I mean, I'm a
this is a big thing.
Speaker 4 (01:20:08):
Like I don't know, a few years ago, Yeah, it
was a couple of years or something.
Speaker 1 (01:20:11):
Yeah, I remember hearing about this. But like, the thing
that's tough about this question is like, if it was
my own life on the line.
Speaker 2 (01:20:17):
I just was not I would just not deny it.
But if it's your family, my families is a different story.
Speaker 4 (01:20:23):
I would just have to trust that they have their
own responsibility to respond to Christ. And at this point,
if they have not made that, it's it's that or
they get hit by a bus without making that choice. Right,
You're responsibility before God is does.
Speaker 2 (01:20:38):
It's just a lot harder because you're kind of that decision.
Speaker 3 (01:20:41):
You're making that decision on either way, you walk away guilty.
That's from this scenario. You have to walk away guilty
for denying Christ, or walk away guilty for you would.
Speaker 1 (01:20:49):
Rather be guilty towards in that situation, be guilty, I
would not guilty towards your family.
Speaker 3 (01:20:55):
Well, ultimately, if you're not guilty towards God, you're not
guilty towards anyone else.
Speaker 1 (01:20:59):
So true, which is another verse is like like fear
not the like the man who can harm the body.
Fear the person who can harm the soul. The soul
is true and the only one who can have the
souls God.
Speaker 2 (01:21:11):
Yeah, exactly.
Speaker 1 (01:21:12):
So it's like it's like it's it's harder when it's
on behalf of someone else because like again, like if
it was Deny Christ, I'm gonna shoot you, like shoot me,
like I know where I'm going when I'm dying.
Speaker 4 (01:21:24):
Like, but if you don't have the choice, I would,
I would. You got to take the choice where you
don't deny and right leave. Okay, my family's gonna die,
but they have their own responsibilities to God.
Speaker 3 (01:21:36):
Well, and God will they made. God will have what
he wants to happen happen. Ultimately. That's just how it's
going to go to extent.
Speaker 4 (01:21:46):
Wow, Like I would say, God would determine, Like no,
I'm just.
Speaker 3 (01:21:50):
Talking about if God wants people to be saved, they
will be saved somehow some way, which I know we're
getting Calvinism adjacent here, but we've we've all agreed before
that generally acts but he has the authority to act
that way if he chooses.
Speaker 4 (01:22:05):
Right, but he has chose not to do that through
what He's revealed in his word.
Speaker 3 (01:22:09):
Right, which means that if if your whole family dies,
then that's that's just how it.
Speaker 4 (01:22:16):
Is, their personal responsibly to God.
Speaker 3 (01:22:18):
That's going to be like such an evil person.
Speaker 2 (01:22:24):
Feels so awful.
Speaker 3 (01:22:27):
This is you know, screw you for asking this question.
Speaker 2 (01:22:31):
We asked for deep questions. I got it.
Speaker 3 (01:22:33):
He said, you said, let's end.
Speaker 2 (01:22:36):
On something later.
Speaker 4 (01:22:40):
Beautiful.
Speaker 2 (01:22:41):
Swer can talk about like pantheons or something. I don't know, pantheism.
Was there to say about pantheasm? I don't know. Just's stupid?
Do you believe in more than one God? You're dumb
and I hate you.
Speaker 4 (01:22:55):
You want to move some to more some more like
person person questions.
Speaker 3 (01:22:59):
Like like personal question, I don't know, just like something
less theological. Perhaps, I don't know. We've we've beaten twenty
three minutes. This is like two sermons worth with theology
in this podcast.
Speaker 2 (01:23:11):
It's like, let's jump to Calvinism, goofy with it.
Speaker 4 (01:23:14):
Maybe goofy with it.
Speaker 2 (01:23:16):
Oh, we want to do more lighthearted questions.
Speaker 3 (01:23:19):
I don't know. I don't know what's uh. Are people
who wear socks and sandals going to heaven or not?
Speaker 1 (01:23:28):
Yes?
Speaker 3 (01:23:28):
Because I would say no.
Speaker 2 (01:23:30):
Oh, so you don't think you'll see me in heaven
wearing socks and sandals.
Speaker 3 (01:23:36):
I mean, I know I'm not gonna I don't think
I'm gonna see Jesus wearing socks and sandals.
Speaker 2 (01:23:42):
What makes you say that?
Speaker 3 (01:23:43):
I don't think he wore socks and sandals when he
walked the earth.
Speaker 2 (01:23:46):
And where's your where's your scripts?
Speaker 3 (01:23:51):
I might just wear Matthew Matthew three Matthew three twenty
four says, and Jesus went around with no socks on
his feet, only sandals.
Speaker 2 (01:24:01):
You just made that.
Speaker 3 (01:24:02):
I didn't make that up.
Speaker 4 (01:24:04):
Well, actually, ready fact check? Yeah, go home and test
the spirits to make sure what you're.
Speaker 2 (01:24:14):
I guess that's theologic. But we could still talk about
the ology. It just doesn't have to be as heavy
as just not would you.
Speaker 3 (01:24:20):
Let your family die?
Speaker 2 (01:24:24):
Well, let's go to John.
Speaker 3 (01:24:25):
Let's go to John John.
Speaker 2 (01:24:26):
Yeah, let's let's let's talk about the Eucharist.
Speaker 3 (01:24:31):
Chris, Oh, boy, Christ.
Speaker 2 (01:24:36):
Was giving me a weird star.
Speaker 4 (01:24:37):
Explain it's been a year.
Speaker 2 (01:24:39):
It's you know what the Christ means?
Speaker 4 (01:24:42):
I probably do. I just forget the flesh and.
Speaker 2 (01:24:45):
Blood of our Lord and Savior.
Speaker 4 (01:24:46):
Oh, the.
Speaker 3 (01:24:49):
The belief that communion is actually the body and blood
of Jesus.
Speaker 4 (01:24:53):
Yeah, that's that's why. That's why the like Greek and Rome.
I forget which book it is one of the Gospel
or not Gospel, it's one of the writings. Let's talk
about I think it's Pollie's like, guys, people think we're
cannibals because of this whole idea of we're eating and
(01:25:14):
consuming the body and the blood of Jesusit's like, obviously, no,
it's that's ridiculous. But that's also where the Catholic traits
took that and they're like, hey, it turns into like
as you're eating at it like turns into the actual body.
It's okay, do that for like, I mean maybe if
they're like really little, maybe three years worth the services,
(01:25:37):
you've ate the entire eight your old Jesus.
Speaker 2 (01:25:39):
You know, well, I feel like Jesus wanted is that.
It's like it's a miracle, is it?
Speaker 4 (01:25:45):
If it's jesus bysical body you're consuming.
Speaker 3 (01:25:48):
If Jesus was physically there with the disciples, why didn't
he just give this actual physical bible? Why did you
chop off a finger or me?
Speaker 2 (01:25:56):
That what makes you say he didn't because the Bible
doesn't say it does. Just because the Bible doesn't say that, there's.
Speaker 1 (01:26:06):
No No where in the Bible doesn't say there's five generals,
and Hell doesn't say there's not does it?
Speaker 2 (01:26:12):
What favorite where?
Speaker 3 (01:26:15):
John?
Speaker 1 (01:26:15):
I talk about John six, I think about like, if
you do not like consume my flesh and blood, you're
not saved.
Speaker 2 (01:26:26):
Therefore, when many of his disciples heard this, they said,
this teaching is hard. Who can accept it? Because they
were thinking the same thing. Yeah, they were like cannibalism.
H Jesus, what we've got to eat you? Mm hmm pass.
Speaker 4 (01:26:41):
No, it's John. Yeah, it's a wild I don't know.
Speaker 2 (01:26:47):
I think there's true presence. I don't think it's uh
like skin and blood.
Speaker 3 (01:26:53):
No, it's it's spiritual person.
Speaker 4 (01:26:55):
Yeah, symbol do the remembrance of me.
Speaker 2 (01:27:00):
You don't think there's like some presence in there in
the food, Yeah, like a little extra a little extra
exposure to the glory of God honing in on the food,
something like that.
Speaker 4 (01:27:14):
Really, I forget which branch of theology is, but I
figure what it's called. Big word. Basically the idea that
all of God like you don't have eighty percent God
in here and twenty percent up there, like all of
God is in all places. God does not have parts,
(01:27:35):
because that which has parts can come apart.
Speaker 3 (01:27:38):
Right there.
Speaker 4 (01:27:40):
Obviously are instances where God reveals his glory or veils
his glory in certain situations, but all of God is
everywhere present. Right, So to say we got some extra
God in this nice little bread dish, I don't know
it's it would be a symbol. I would believe it
(01:28:01):
would be just a representation, especially because there's parts of
the world like Bolivia, they don't have much for bread
or for whin they use. I don't know if it's
papaya and or like bananas and heretics water something, but
(01:28:22):
they use like other elements.
Speaker 3 (01:28:24):
But it's the whole point, right, the whole point where
Jesus was saying, he said, do this in remembrance of Me.
Speaker 4 (01:28:29):
And traditionally what they would have had at that meal
is bread.
Speaker 3 (01:28:33):
Yeah, and it's nice to be able to follow tradition,
but if you can't, The point is Jesus is here
with you as you take this, just like he is everywhere.
But right now we are honing in on remembering his
death and resurrection, and He's going to bless you as
you take this meal in faith.
Speaker 4 (01:28:50):
It also says like, whenever you eat and drink, do
some remembrance of me.
Speaker 3 (01:28:56):
Right, But it's still a special thing to take the
communion meal with Christ, of course.
Speaker 4 (01:29:03):
Remembering ritual that God that Jesus set in place for
us to remember, because guess what we're gonna forget. That's true,
we do it every month. At least I still forget
a lot. So it's a good, yeah, reminder, But I
wouldn't say there's some crazy extra spiritual. It does say
(01:29:25):
that if you first Corinthians eleven says like, if you
eat or drink in an unworthy manner, like if you
were not part of the body of Christ, what what
are you doing partake taking of this?
Speaker 2 (01:29:36):
Like and his baby also died because they people.
Speaker 4 (01:29:39):
Yeah, so if you are not part of the body
of Christ, you should not be partaking in this. Uh,
what are you gonna say?
Speaker 1 (01:29:47):
Well, well, I'm just saying, NICKI brought up John. Were
you referring to John six?
Speaker 2 (01:29:51):
Ye?
Speaker 1 (01:29:52):
Yeah, where he says barely verly, I said to you,
Moses gave you not that bread from heaven, but my
Father gives you the true bread.
Speaker 2 (01:29:59):
From Hea.
Speaker 1 (01:30:00):
For the Bread of God is which cometh down to
the heaven and given life one too the world. And
again he says thirty five. And Jesus said, unto them,
I am the Bread of life. That he cometh to me,
she'll never hunger, and that he shall believe it on
me never thirst. So a lot of people take that
to mean, oh, that's like he didn't explicitly say it's
(01:30:24):
you know, communion is a symbol.
Speaker 2 (01:30:26):
He means he's literal. He's literally the bread and you
literally have to consume him. But what's the first verse
of John everybody knows it's.
Speaker 3 (01:30:34):
The bend and the word was God, and the word.
Speaker 2 (01:30:38):
Was God, and that's the word is fraying to Jesus.
Correct me if I'm wrong. It's the word is also
used to describe the Bible.
Speaker 3 (01:30:45):
Right well, in the same way Jesus says that he
is the door. That doesn't mean he's a physical door.
Speaker 2 (01:30:52):
Like John fifteen, I'm the true vine? Is the is
God the Father a gardener? He describes himself as the
far in im parables. Yeah, John fifteen says that the
Father is a gardener.
Speaker 1 (01:31:04):
So yeah, But like when he says, like here when
he says, Moses gave you not that bread from heaven,
like because in the wilderness the Israelites were feeding off
of mana, which was given to them directly by God.
So he's like, that wasn't the bread from heaven, even
though that manna was given to us by God who
is in heaven. So like whise, so that's not the
(01:31:25):
bread of heaven. So he's not talking about physical bread here.
He says, I'm the true bread from heaven. I'm the
bread of life that he comes to me, she'll never hunger.
And the beginning of John he says, like he is
described as the Word, so when he's talking about the
bread of life, he's meaning the Word of God, like
we consume this to you know, satisfy our hunger for
(01:31:48):
truth and everything.
Speaker 4 (01:31:51):
It's also an idea of salvation. That bread was literally
kept them alive. Yeah, they have salvation that does not
go away. Yes, that you do not get sick of.
Speaker 2 (01:32:02):
Maybe it's in the same passage, but he says somewhere else.
Speaker 1 (01:32:06):
That you know, do not like strive for like like
physical food that like doesn't satisfy, but spiritual food, which
will you know, keep you full forever. I'm probably butchering that.
But right, so, I don't think that this is referring
to physical communion. When he says thread of life, he's
talking about a spiritual consuming of the Word, which is.
Speaker 2 (01:32:30):
Jesus, who is the bread of life.
Speaker 3 (01:32:32):
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (01:32:33):
But do you have a response, I just have another thing.
What when we when we wrap up they convenient stuff.
Speaker 3 (01:32:43):
That we got to wrap up?
Speaker 2 (01:32:45):
Soon's we got like ten minutes. Well, and on baptism,
is baptism necessary for salvation?
Speaker 4 (01:32:55):
No, but it is a sign of salvation and you
should do it outward, uh, expression of what has been
done on the inside. You know where baptism originated, Nicholas.
Speaker 2 (01:33:06):
It was, I mean, it wasn't a new thing in
the New Testament that was done by the Israelites. Was
it to be common Israelite?
Speaker 4 (01:33:17):
There memories of that idea came from I forget tell
me Joshua, when they were crossing, Oh yes, the Jordan
River into the Holy Land. They had they went across it,
(01:33:38):
and their idea in the Israelite the idea of being baptist.
When someone wanted to join this new the nation of Israel,
leave their pagan nation and join and be part of
God's chosen people. They had the same practice of being baptized,
which was a picture of what Joshua and Israelites did,
(01:34:02):
going from Okay, we're in the wilderness, we are on
the outside, and we are going into this new land.
We are going to gain a new identity as the
nation of Israel in our as our own nation, not
just we're just kind of people in the wilderness. And
so that was perpetuated as when a person wants to
(01:34:24):
join the Family of God, the nation of Israel, they
were baptized to symbolize there is a new citizenship. The
image you were going, you were changing citizenships from pagan,
from lost in the wilderness to now you are among
the family, in the nation of God. And so that's
(01:34:49):
why John was baptizing. And a big issue wasn't John,
why are you baptizing? It was John, why are you
baptizing Israelites? Already Israelites, what are you doing. There's a
big part of Israelates Jews were getting baptized like what
are you Like, what are you doing? It's like, this
(01:35:10):
is to proclaim the kingdom, to make straight the way
of the Lord, which is an old prophecy. I think
in Isaiah, Jeremiah, the Lord Being or being Yahweh Jehovah.
John attributing that to Jesus saying, the Messiah is coming,
he is God himself, and Jews are being baptized to
(01:35:34):
show that there is a new citizenship through this Messiah
that is coming. Because even Jesus said in it might
be John chapter ten, where he's saying, I'm taking I'm
calling out my sheep from the fold, from these different
(01:35:57):
folds and bringing them to myself, both the Gentiles and Jews,
taking people out of Jews into his new citizenship under Christ.
So he talks about that and the idea of baptism
now for us is there's a newness of citizenship under
(01:36:20):
Christ as a new man has made righteous by Christ
and by his sacrifice. And so I would say it
has always been a picture of what it is to
change citizenships, what it is to show outwardly, Hey, this
(01:36:42):
is what I'm this is what's going on on the inside.
I mean, I think it's John ten. So if you
believe in your heart and confess with your mouth that
Jesus is Lord and that God raised him from the dead,
you will be saved. Like that might be paraphrasing. But
you didn't just say if you just believe in your heart,
(01:37:05):
then you'll be saved. It's you can fast with the
amount showing that this is, this is the reality to you.
This isn't just like I'll just believe this in secret,
like this is an outward.
Speaker 1 (01:37:18):
This is it's just like, it's not just I believe
that Jesus was like the son of God. It's he
is my savior, and he is like.
Speaker 4 (01:37:29):
I am changed. I am changed fundamentally. My citizenship has changed.
Speaker 2 (01:37:34):
Yes, part of the kingdom, the new person. I am
born again because of this.
Speaker 4 (01:37:40):
So that's that's my take.
Speaker 2 (01:37:42):
I would agree with that. I agree something interesting about baptism,
just just to add, it's a bit the early Church
kind of figuring out how to go about this process
because they didn't have the full revelation of Scripture, so
they were still figuring out how to do stuff. Also,
(01:38:02):
that's that's a cool note right there. Scripture was never decided,
it was recognized, yep. So I just want to say that,
but they were deciding trying to decide whether you get
baptized in still water or running water, or it has
to be like cold or warm. A lot of interesting stuff.
(01:38:22):
Will would you get baptized in still water?
Speaker 4 (01:38:26):
I got that's moving water, New Jersey Ocean. You got
baptized still water? Cold? Still water? It the heaters are broken,
so I.
Speaker 2 (01:38:37):
Got one thing down, one part of it.
Speaker 4 (01:38:43):
But good question.
Speaker 2 (01:38:45):
How are you baptized? Well, it's baptized as a baby.
Speaker 3 (01:38:48):
Mm hmm.
Speaker 4 (01:38:49):
Were you ever re baptized? Would you ever you should
get re baptized?
Speaker 2 (01:38:55):
I don't think I need. I don't think I should.
Do you have a problem with baptism, No, I just.
Speaker 4 (01:39:04):
Don't know how it would work as far as like
if it's a decora outward declaration of your faith, Well,
it's so you didn't have that. I don't know if
you consciously had that faith when you were an infant
or could they express personally?
Speaker 1 (01:39:20):
Any infant could faith. But I still gave a outward
declaration of faith when I was older without getting without
getting part of being a memory or even baptism is
to go really quickly because we're running really short on time.
Speaker 3 (01:39:38):
Is it's a.
Speaker 1 (01:39:41):
It's it's supposed to basically like take the place of
Old Testament circumcision, so you know the practices behind that
relatively so it's it's a promise between a you know,
the parents and God that we're going to raise this
child in you, and we are to be held accountable
for making sure this kid is uh, this child is
(01:40:03):
raised in the spirit and learns about you. And I
think I mean the way you describe baptism about a
change of citizenship. I mean, if you're born, if you're
born in an un American soil, you're an American citizen.
So if you're born in a Christian family and you're baptized,
then I mean doesn't mean you're saved, but you know,
you're part of the Christian community. But you know, even
(01:40:26):
if you're baptizing as adult, doesn't mean you're saved. There
are people, I'm sure who have made false professions of
faith or like like ungenuine professions of faith and been
baptized and still aren't saved afterwards. I'm sure that's been
a case that happened.
Speaker 4 (01:40:40):
I guess that's where like the stigma of like, yes,
baptism is just an outward like Scripture does say it
is a good thing for you to be baptized, to
make that outward declaration, right, but even as you even
as I said and as you explain that, I get
(01:41:01):
this feeling of like you should probably do it again
as a believer. You know, because if you made a
false decla if you weren't saved and you just wanted
to get baptized and then lady, you got saved, I
would probably say, okay, get baptized. To me, it would
be as a true declaration, because baptism is and that's right,
(01:41:24):
that's right. Struggle, that's right, I struggle with it.
Speaker 1 (01:41:27):
I'm not saying I'm like, you know, like this is
like the true practice that everybody should do. But that's
the way I was raised, and I, as you know,
as far as I've studied, I haven't seen anything super
wrong with it.
Speaker 4 (01:41:44):
Yeah I don't. I know our church did that for
a while, just like you declare like we want this
church to hold us responsible. But also, I mean scripture
doesn't say like be baptized and then hopefully later you
get saved.
Speaker 2 (01:42:02):
This is something, this is something that I need. I
need to study more.
Speaker 3 (01:42:05):
We'll have to save this debate for another podcast because
we are out of time. Ladies and gentlemen, thank you
for listening. Nick, Well, Nick, thanks for coming on.
Speaker 4 (01:42:18):
Absolutely thanks this is this is great, you know.
Speaker 3 (01:42:20):
Guys, If you made it this far, congrats because you
just got a heck of a lot of theology. Thanks guys,
and if you disagree with us, tell us in the
comments and be sure to also add that you want
us to die. Thank you very much and so long.
Guess who's back back again. That's me, William Principle, back
from the mountains, back in good old Buffalo.
Speaker 2 (00:10):
Our app you're back in Isaac's baseman.
Speaker 3 (00:14):
Oh yeah, we got two.
Speaker 1 (00:17):
Very special guests today, so special the might there might
be some of our most special guests so far.
Speaker 2 (00:23):
I don't know.
Speaker 3 (00:24):
We're not talking about special ed here. We mean we
just like you like, they're.
Speaker 1 (00:27):
Like not even a minute and he already made classic.
Let's classic, you know Ritz podcasting. Anyway, let's let's introduce them.
Speaker 2 (00:37):
First off, we got.
Speaker 1 (00:38):
You know, you know, my brother, my brother in name
but brother from another mother. Will Lubner give him a
round of applause, and of course, and then on his
rights right hand man.
Speaker 3 (00:53):
We have Donald Trump.
Speaker 2 (00:55):
Be Donald Trump, China a great country. We don't really
like it. We're gonna give him tariffs. I'm just kidding.
Speaker 3 (01:06):
It's Nick Freeberg.
Speaker 1 (01:07):
No, that's actually Nick Freeberg. I know we probably fooled you.
That sounded just like Donald I got a really good impersonation.
Speaker 2 (01:14):
But yeah, it's okay, anyway, I'll bring it up later.
Speaker 1 (01:17):
We have some there's a very interesting group of people
because these are all people A lot at the table
are very like, well, has gone to a year of
Bible School. He's you know, he's got his like special
Bible in front of him, his special like hand hand
crafted by Yeah.
Speaker 2 (01:34):
Yeah, he's going to a year. He has an associates
degree in theology or bibiology. It's theology. Yeah. And then
we got Nick, who just you know, he loves the Bible.
I don't have any done every day.
Speaker 1 (01:44):
He's a future Bible School graduate. And if I graduate,
you know me, I've been going to church since you know,
for twenty years.
Speaker 2 (01:54):
I've been going to church for twenty years.
Speaker 3 (01:56):
Plus twenty years, so you're very you're very knowledgeable, of course.
Speaker 1 (02:00):
And then Isaac, he carries his Bible in a Bible
book bag, so you know smart, I have the Bible.
Speaker 2 (02:06):
You know he's smart.
Speaker 3 (02:07):
I have the Bible app installed on my phone.
Speaker 2 (02:09):
That's how you know too.
Speaker 3 (02:12):
Well, well, so you know that we're theological experts. I
will have it. Well if I'm not wrong, this is
like the first theological podcast we've done. That's like, obviously
you've talked about theology, but we came here knowing that
that was what the most of the podcast is going
to be about.
Speaker 1 (02:28):
Just like the first time where it was like the
main focus. Yeah, obviously, because we're both Christians, it's always
going to like bleed into every topic we talk about
because that's a foundation for our uh, foundation for our beliefs.
Speaker 3 (02:41):
Well yeah, and for our lives.
Speaker 2 (02:43):
Yeah, exactly, So we're going to talk about it.
Speaker 4 (02:45):
Right.
Speaker 2 (02:46):
So I got a couple of questions here, But.
Speaker 3 (02:50):
Can you keep your mouth close to the mic? Oh?
Speaker 1 (02:52):
Sorry, can you're not here this earbud? Actually I don't
hear anything out of it.
Speaker 2 (02:56):
Oh two fingers, well, two fingers and two fingers.
Speaker 4 (02:59):
Okay, there's gonna be more of the theological questions.
Speaker 1 (03:04):
Some are theological, some are historical, and some are some
Some of them are more like what would you do.
Speaker 2 (03:12):
If you were in this situation type thing?
Speaker 1 (03:14):
Like wait a minute, Oh i'n okay, Oh you have
an idea? Okay, we can unless you say the question.
Speaker 2 (03:21):
Maybe I'll bring it up. Okay.
Speaker 1 (03:23):
Well, yeah, so I've got I've got four four questions
I got focused on y'all are general biblical things. So
first and I'll ask this is what Isaac came up
with a nice little icebreaker here is what do you think?
Speaker 2 (03:40):
Maybe you should ask it?
Speaker 3 (03:40):
Because yeah, yeah. So I guess the question is is
it better to be radically and we're talking like the
extreme ends of both of these things here, just to
take both ideas to their logical extreme. I guess is
it better to be radically cessationalist, I you know, you
believe that there are no miracles done anymore and that
God is not really particularly active in his churches. Or
(04:03):
is it better to be radically Pentecostal, where you believe
that basically nothing changed since Jesus is walking the earth,
and that miracles are still being done through people and
all that.
Speaker 2 (04:14):
So what are your thoughts? This is for mession. All
three of you looked at me at the same time.
I think about that. I don't know. I'ven't looked into
that a whole lot. I mean, hmmm, I don't I
don't know if I'm stepping on Will's toes here. But
(04:35):
I don't know. If I don't know, if God doesn't
perform miracles anymore.
Speaker 3 (04:42):
I don't know.
Speaker 4 (04:42):
If I don't know, if God doesn't doesn't I don't know.
Speaker 2 (04:46):
I don't know what scripture has to say about that,
if it has anything to say about that. What do
we mean by miracles? What do we mean byrs like
I would say, I would say God can heal people
if he chooses to, I would call that a miracle.
Speaker 4 (04:59):
I would agree, of course.
Speaker 3 (05:00):
Yeah, but the argument from the cessationalists is that he just.
Speaker 1 (05:03):
Doesn't well from the extreme sensationalist right, wait wait wait,
could you like lay out their viewpoint? So sessationalists based
so like you know, in the Bible, like a specificality
around the Pentecosta talks about, you know, the apostles being
able to speak in tongues and prophesy, and then Paul says,
(05:24):
you know, if your gift is the prophesy, you prophesy.
So Pentecostals believe those are all things for today, but
sessationalists believe those things have all ceased. That's where the
name sessationalist comes from. You know, it's just ceasing.
Speaker 2 (05:37):
Okay, So not like God performing miracles, but like the
spiritual gifts of the spiritual feeling people are.
Speaker 4 (05:44):
I know, the Pentecostals, you, as a person, Isaac would
be if your spiritual gift was to heal, you had
the faith he like like that was your bet right
and you will other things. You had someone stand up
speaking in tongues, and you had say some interpreter, I
would probably more fall more sensationalists. I wouldn't say extreme,
(06:09):
because I believe prayer still works per ye to heal.
The prayer of a righteous man, you know, is powerful
that God. I mean, I've seen in my own life,
with having like a surgery, used to.
Speaker 3 (06:25):
Say and Mary that we weren't even talking about who
we pray to. We were just talking about people praying were.
Speaker 2 (06:34):
Not Catholicism is on the list. We'll talk about that later.
All right, all right, well go on, Sorry interrupt.
Speaker 4 (06:42):
But anyway, like I've seen in my own life with
the surgeries I've had, we're like, you know, I'm two
weeks away from going to Bible School and I have
like a ton of healing left to do which would
take months to heal. And like, God, if you want
me to go to Bible School, I'm gonna need this.
He yield like radically fast.
Speaker 3 (07:03):
Yeah.
Speaker 4 (07:03):
And went back to the doctor that next day and
there's about like a seven inch deep open wound that
I had that was completely healed up the next day overnight,
completely healed. So I would definitely believe that God still
is active in doing miracles and working in his church
through his Holy Spirit. But as far as what they
(07:25):
would say in Pentecostal church with people having specific gifts,
if I could read one Corinthians thirteen, this would be
I guess it'd be a little more sensationalist, but a
better middle ground. I'd say it says, starting hmm. First,
(07:48):
a charity never faileth King James. Where there be prophecies,
they shall fail. Whether there be tongues, they shall cease.
Whether there be knowledge, it shall vanish away. For we
know in part, and we prophesy in part. But when
that which is perfect is come, or some the reasons,
(08:10):
when the perfect comes, then that which is done in
that which is done in part shall be done away with.
And that word for perfect. A lot of different denominations
would say, oh, let's just talk about Jesus. When Jesus
comes back, you know, what's the need for all these
gifts and things. But in the Greek, this word for
(08:31):
perfect is a neutered noun, because we know the grammar
and scripture is inspired that it's a neuter noun which
can never refer If this was masculine, now it could
refer to a person, but saying the perfect being a
neutered noun always refers to an object, and we would
believe that is the completed inspired Word of God. Knowing
that all of these gifts used by Christ, used by
(08:55):
the apostles in the early Church, were for the specific
purpose of giving validation to those who were writing the
inspired word of God. To see Peter James John and say,
God is obviously with these men. God is obviously was
(09:16):
present with Christ. And because people are like, oh, these
people have a demon, but they're like, well, they're doing
the works of God here. These aren't the works of
the devil. So it gave validity to these men who
did the things only God could do, raise the dead,
heal the sick, be able to communicate in multiple languages
(09:37):
for the sole purpose of sharing the Gospel, having over
three thousand added to their numbers that day. That but
when it says, when the perfect comes, when newted, when
the inspired Word of God is completely written, all revelation
is over with, there is no more reason for prophecy,
and that it would be completed right well.
Speaker 3 (10:00):
And just from the practical point of view, the problem
that you get into when you go too much to
the Pentecostal side. And I'm not talking about believing that
God still heals people or you know, gives direction in
some kind of way for certain decisions. The problem that
you get with that is that you have people claiming
to know exactly what God wants at any given time
(10:22):
for everyone, and they start to preach on that, and
they start to take away from or add to the Bible,
and then you get into certain heresies that are not good.
Speaker 1 (10:32):
It's also to the extent of like, whether intentionally or not,
you make a liar out of yourself sometimes because like
something very common is like spiritual healing. Yeah, like oh,
I'll pray over you, or like the whole congregation will
pray over you and your you know, your broken leg
or your bum knee will be be healed.
Speaker 2 (10:52):
Have you guys seen those videos where it's like a
pastor and they'll like throw his arms at people and.
Speaker 1 (10:57):
They'll like, oh yeah, yeah, that's like on like the
outrageously Pentecostal side, but there are like more more held back,
but they're still like, you know what happens if you know,
the knee isn't healed, or like the injury isn't healed
even though they prayed over.
Speaker 2 (11:13):
Them, They'll they'll either say like, oh.
Speaker 1 (11:15):
You didn't have enough faith or something, which also like
why you're you're taking on that power you become you.
Speaker 3 (11:22):
Do what Jesus says when Jesus said not to do.
When you do it, you become the judge. I mean
the whole point of when Jesus said judging not unless
you be judged. Doesn't mean you make decisions about you know,
a person's character and how you should deal with them
based on that character. It means you have no idea
what's going on in their heart. So when someone isn't
healed in the way that you think they should be,
(11:42):
and you say, oh, it's because you didn't have enough faith,
you are judging the character of their heart. Like you know,
you're judging what only God can know and turn yourself
into God.
Speaker 4 (11:54):
And then yes, I would say I would land definitely
more sensationalist. You also have they when people in church
to be like, oh God, God told me, God told
me this, or he you know, revealed this to me
in a dream, or well some person.
Speaker 3 (12:11):
Just read and then they'll say something that the Bible
says the exact opposite of and you're like no, right.
Speaker 4 (12:17):
Even passa is that scripture is sufficient all life and
godliness that we don't if as far as I need
to hear from God or I want to know what
God wants me to do day to day, I don't
know what the will of God is for me. It's scripture.
It's God's spoken, written word to us.
Speaker 3 (12:37):
Right I say. I say everything I say about Pentecostalism
as someone who does believe that God will still actively
intervene in life sometimes once in a while, like you
said with your story about healing up, and you know,
maybe even will provide some supernatural direction for your life
(12:58):
that probably will come through scripture. But sometimes, I mean,
we've all had those light bulb moments when we're thinking
about something theological. I'd assume where we just suddenly we
see the will of God for us and we know
what the next step forward is. And to say that
that's not God is just as inaccurate as saying that
everything you think is from God is actually from God.
You know what I mean?
Speaker 2 (13:18):
Right?
Speaker 4 (13:20):
Yeah, So I guess that's that's where I would land. Yeah,
scripture has to be the authority. Its contrary to scripture,
then it's then it's not from God.
Speaker 2 (13:30):
From God, Yeah, true, I think there is.
Speaker 1 (13:32):
I mean, I think spiritual experiences can still happen because
I've heard testimonies that are like too compelling and to
like life changing to be denied. Right, Like, they're never
contradictory to scripture, and they're always in very like like
specific and extreme circumstances.
Speaker 3 (13:51):
Yeah, they're not as usual as the Pentecostal churches make
them out to be. It's not like that's another thing
you shouldn't just be. Because God may sometimes grant you
a spiritual experience for the purpose of healing or for
inspiration or whatever, that doesn't mean that that's what you
seek all the time. I don't think God actually wants
us to actively This is what Pentecostal teachers would usually
(14:14):
teach is that God wants you to actively seek out
and experience with him. Well, he wants you to follow
him and listen to him and maybe have a very
spiritual experience, but ultimately that's not what the point of
your life is. The point of your life is just
to glorify God and do his will and to enjoy
Him forever.
Speaker 4 (14:33):
So right, and when the Bible specific I forget a
where and then just Testament says it word for word.
First I want and wish I had used to have memorized,
but basically says, and this is the will of God
for you. And we'll pause and you're like, okay, here
it is big moment.
Speaker 2 (14:54):
What is it?
Speaker 4 (14:58):
It's that you would be conformed to the image of Christ.
They would be like Christ. Right, It's like, okay, you
could you know, be whatever you want to be in life.
Obviously within you know, pure good intentions, but your main
goal as far as what is the will God for
my life, is that you were conformed to the image
(15:20):
of Christ.
Speaker 3 (15:20):
Yeah, whatever line of work you choose, you know, do
that line of work and Christ would do it, or
just don't do it at all, I mean, if it's
something sinful, you know.
Speaker 1 (15:27):
And then right right, that reminds me of like there's
a book I read while I was gone for the
ten weeks. It's called Just Do Something by Kevin Deyong,
and basically, like the whole crux of the book was
just him saying modern Christians spend way too much time thinking,
(15:47):
oh is this God's plan for me? Or like looking
for like like an outline for their lives. That like
God has like hidden away somewhere, when in reality, that's
not really how it works. I mean, like you said
with that scripture, just be conformed to the image of
Christ and glorify them and all that you do, and
then you'll end up in a situation where God wants
(16:09):
you to be right because he said, like where in
our modern day and age, we're like we have like
it's like the the luxury but also a little bit
of the handicap of too many choices. Like, yeah, things
are so accessible nowadays, we can just like choose to
move wherever we want, within you know, reasonable ability, do
(16:30):
whatever job we want, Whereas like one hundred two hundred
years ago, you didn't really have all those options. You
kind of just like did what your family did, yeah,
and did it. There was no question of oh I'm
gonna like be a I'm gonna be like, you know,
a tech bro in you know, California. It's like, oh,
my dad works, you know, as a painter, So I'm
gonna pick up his stuff and I'm gonna glorify God
(16:53):
while doing it.
Speaker 3 (16:54):
Sure, and yeah, we've started. I think some Christians tell
themselves that there's only one path for them and if
they don't find out what it is from God, then
you're they're doing something wrong. There's one path to salvation
in one path to our father in heaven, which is
the Lord Jesus Christ. But other than that, if you're
willing to there, there are multiple paths for your live
(17:17):
life that are not wrong for you to choose. You know,
you just have to. What's important is that you choose
one of them and you do your best to glorify
God in that path so that you don't end up
standing at the crossroads of like, you know, three or
four options for what you're gonna do with your life.
And yes, it's not like you just stay there instead
of progressing.
Speaker 1 (17:33):
Yeah, it's not like the choice of whether or not
you're gonna go like go to like you be your
buff state, Like one of those is not like one
of those is not wrong. It is like the one
right answer. Yeah, it's like, oh, you chose buff states. Sorry,
that's not the path I want you.
Speaker 3 (17:50):
The rest of your life is gonna suck.
Speaker 4 (17:51):
Yeah, yeah, I know you're extra boring, but oh god,
it's all wrapped in up in what it looks like
to be like Christ is our secondary goal. Kind of
like what the youth director at our church is talking
about this morning is our obligation to preach the gospel.
What Jesus did when he was here. He's proclaimed the kingdom,
(18:14):
shared the good news that would eventually be brought by
his disciples, and has fallen out to our responsibility. That
part of being like Christ is not just I got
to sit in the corner and read this book and
just kind of put it in and you know how,
that's sure, that might, you know, help you when things
(18:35):
are tough for you. But a huge part of it
is getting your eyes off of yourself, becoming a servant
like Christ was a servant, and giving something valuable, the
most valuable thing to others that this is something that
you can do. And if you go to U be
your buff state. You know what I'm saying, like, yeah, yeah,
it's going to be.
Speaker 3 (18:56):
Well. And the funny thing is, if Jesus wanted us
to be moe and just hanging around in the corner
reading our Bible all the time, I think he probably
would have done that. But then the interesting thing is
we wouldn't know that he did that because he never
would have gone out and done anything. And that would
leave us all in.
Speaker 2 (19:13):
The dark, exactly.
Speaker 1 (19:15):
And it's like, also, if I'm ever looking like, oh,
how should I be living my life?
Speaker 2 (19:18):
I mean, but look at what Jesus was doing exactly.
Speaker 1 (19:21):
He was he was going places, he was traveling all
the time. He's talking to people, meeting people, helping people,
working for people.
Speaker 3 (19:28):
And a lot of his life was just a boring
career as a carpenter, if you want to put it
that way. You know, he didn't really start his monastery nothing,
but he didn't start his like actual full blown ministry
until he was in his thirty yea before that. It
wasn't like he was just waiting for years. He was
just working like a normal person. Obviously he was perfect
(19:49):
and all that he did, but it wasn't like he
was doing all these super exciting things that but you know,
you always have to be on the move or always
have to be doing these grand things. A lot of
serving go is just doing what.
Speaker 2 (20:00):
You can when you can and to the best of
your ability.
Speaker 3 (20:03):
Of course.
Speaker 1 (20:03):
Yeah, any way, Nick, you've been you've been kind of quiet.
Speaker 2 (20:07):
What are your thoughts on all this? What are my
thoughts on all this? I did have a little thing
pop in my head when you were talking about how
Jesus kind of sets the example of how we're supposed
to live, doesn't it talk about how Jesus grew in
wisdom as well.
Speaker 4 (20:24):
Wisdom, stature, in favor.
Speaker 2 (20:26):
With God, and man like just the level of relatability
that he kind of puts forward to us. I think
it's pretty amazing. It's just showing that, you know, you
don't have to be the most theologically sound person the
second you're a Christian. That's all you have to do
to be a Christian. You're gonna grow, Yeah, as you
(20:47):
go down that path and about the where God wants
you in life. How I found it to be is
like when I make decisions, I don't feel as though
like God is calling me to do this thing I'm
talking about like big things that I choose to do right.
But like when I do choose to do a big thing,
(21:09):
I've had many times where I've had this overwhelming feeling
of I shouldn't do this right. And I think that's
God talking to me, the Holy Spirit specific ocean, and
I've felt that at times too, because like I think God,
like you know, choose what you think you want to
do in life. And what you think God would want
(21:30):
you to do in life. But I feel like God
is going to let you know if that's not his
plan for you.
Speaker 3 (21:35):
Right, Yeah, You're going to end up where God wants
you ultimately.
Speaker 1 (21:38):
Yeah, as long as you're you know, pursuing him in
faith and righteousness. Of course, yes, because there's obvious you know,
you can obviously rebel against God in many many ways.
Speaker 3 (21:49):
Right, God doesn't want you to go deal drugs.
Speaker 2 (21:51):
Of course, A drugs for the economy.
Speaker 3 (21:55):
I mean, well, okay, I mean we got a capitalist
over here. Oh it was a great economic system. It's
not a very good the theological worldview, buddy.
Speaker 2 (22:05):
No, I don't think, well, well, when is Marxism ever?
Speaker 3 (22:11):
Worried?
Speaker 2 (22:11):
Donald Trump?
Speaker 3 (22:12):
Not what we're talking about.
Speaker 2 (22:14):
I don't see a lot of a lot of Nazis
around anymore. What is I'm trying to think, what is that?
What's like the opposite of capitalisms? I'm blanking social socialism?
When is socialism worked in history?
Speaker 4 (22:29):
Socialism breaks at least two of the Ten commandments coveting
and stealing.
Speaker 3 (22:36):
Dang, yeah, so.
Speaker 2 (22:38):
Oh I guess so.
Speaker 3 (22:40):
And yet the interesting thing about socialism is, like you
guys were just saying off the podcast a minute ago,
the if there were an economic system in heaven, it
would probably look more like socialism.
Speaker 2 (22:53):
Yeah, probably, but that's that's also a world where everybody's perfect, right,
That's why it Whoever has the biggest house, it's probably
gonna hold the biggest parties sharing right, right?
Speaker 3 (23:07):
What sharing parties?
Speaker 2 (23:10):
I'm just saying, I'm gonna have a bigger planet.
Speaker 4 (23:12):
Than you're sharing into the big two five. We'd love
to see it.
Speaker 1 (23:16):
Off the podcast. You're talking about Islam and I was
talking about Mormonism. What are you trying to say here?
Speaker 3 (23:20):
What's about?
Speaker 2 (23:21):
What do you mean let's talk about Islam Mormonism? You
mean the Church of Jesus Christ.
Speaker 3 (23:31):
Wait, but let's talk about We.
Speaker 2 (23:32):
Don't like being called Mormons anymore.
Speaker 4 (23:34):
Bad.
Speaker 2 (23:35):
It's a slurry, unloss. Mormons do not like being called
They don't what are they called. They call themselves the
Church Latter day Saints of Jesus Christ. And they think
if you if.
Speaker 1 (23:50):
You were to ask them, like how they identify, I
think they probably would say Christian.
Speaker 2 (23:53):
Maybe, oh yeah, they call themselves Christian. They call themselves Christians.
But oh my goodness, dude, my feed my feet of
one point was just it was all it was. What
was the account name was like the Church of Latter
Day Chad's or something.
Speaker 1 (24:07):
Oh my god, just a bunch of Joseph Instagram feed
was like like riddled with like those like take popular
character here and make them religious and make them talk
about theology, and I voice, I like, I'd like christ
like different Christian denominations in my feet. I had Catholics,
I had Muslims as it was, and I was like
(24:27):
always Peter Griffin like talking.
Speaker 2 (24:29):
About rest in Panny's feed taken over by Catholics.
Speaker 1 (24:34):
Me, Me and Nick have an Instagram group chat with
Danny Dimes called the called the Tripecta, and he'll send
us like reels all the time, and like the past
twenty reels have all been like Catholic.
Speaker 2 (24:46):
Really, yeah, we're worried about.
Speaker 3 (24:48):
Him, Danny's look. But anyway, I had I had a
teacher once who said that he believed Islam was just
a Christian heresy because it still has Jesus in it,
and well, they believe in the Christianity, but it gets
a lot of it wrong.
Speaker 1 (25:08):
They believe in the they believe in everything in the
Old Testament, and they believe Jesus was a prophet, but
not the son of God.
Speaker 2 (25:13):
Don't they believe the New Testament is corrupt or something?
Speaker 1 (25:16):
Yes, they believe that like Paul was like evil and
that he like.
Speaker 2 (25:22):
Yeah, exactly.
Speaker 1 (25:24):
They think Paul is evil because he disagrees with them
on everything.
Speaker 4 (25:28):
I don't know if they would, I don't know if
they would hold up the prophets or the writings. They
would they would, Oh, yeah, they say the sons of Abraham,
But then I think it would be Ishmael dissent.
Speaker 2 (25:42):
Oh, that that's right. I'm sure they got problem.
Speaker 1 (25:45):
Then the Intern was just talking about this. They believe
that Ishmael was that their descendants of Ishmael, and they
believe he was like the true like chosen son, not Isaac.
Speaker 4 (25:56):
When God said, you know, through you, Abraham, all the
nations of the earth will be black us that that
nation is actually Ishmael's descendants being the Middle East Muslims,
then just a plan where Isaac? So, I I'm not
sure what they would think of the prophets that which
is all Israel.
Speaker 2 (26:17):
That's true. I'm pretty sure they hold to the Old Testing.
Speaker 3 (26:21):
Maybe maybe us. You know, I'm real quick, So we
can tell the others, you can.
Speaker 2 (26:32):
Explain Muslim you know, well, I think you might be right.
I'm pretty sure they just hold the Torah.
Speaker 4 (26:37):
Actually actually yeah, I wrote a little paper at school
about it. Pretty much took the entire Muslim religion and
kind of through it in the garbage. I mean, that's
kind of the perspective for a lot of religions. If
you get Jesus right, all the other religions disappear.
Speaker 3 (26:57):
Better.
Speaker 2 (26:57):
Be careful here will your house might.
Speaker 4 (26:59):
Have under I might yeah, they might be New York.
Speaker 3 (27:04):
There's a car bomb outside your house right now.
Speaker 4 (27:08):
Yeah, pipe bomb in my mailbox. But I wrote out and.
Speaker 3 (27:13):
Then on the Mormon side, there are three women waiting
to seduce you until you can marry all three of them, and.
Speaker 2 (27:18):
They're all under Still the Muslims like actually.
Speaker 4 (27:24):
A bunch of like virgin women do something.
Speaker 3 (27:27):
Like that family eye clip where the bomber is promised
you know, seventy two virgins or whatever it is when
he gets to wonder and he gets up there and
it's a bunch of nerds playing video games, and he
just shouts, oh, it.
Speaker 4 (27:39):
Seems very much like something created by like like some
dude would make that up. I wonder what the perfect.
Speaker 3 (27:45):
I wonder what would snag a bunch of men.
Speaker 4 (27:47):
What would be like the perfect?
Speaker 2 (27:50):
Really really it's true though, that is true. That is true.
I guess Mohammad was a smart guy, but I mean he.
Speaker 3 (27:58):
Was very smart.
Speaker 1 (27:59):
O religion, man, Okay, we were just talking about this
off the podcast, but like, do we think that was
all him being conniving or do you think he was
just pressured by the devil to do it all?
Speaker 2 (28:12):
Good question. I don't think we can know.
Speaker 4 (28:14):
I mean, but there's a lot of figures like you
would have to not to bring up, you know, everyone's
favorite podcast topic. But Hitler had Like Hitler was like
his The biggest thing he tried to do is wipe
out God's chosen people. So many prophecies were saying, uh,
(28:36):
end times huny forty four thousand Jews converted Jews are
going to be pre together. Like if you can wipe
the Jews off the face of the planet, a lot
of the end time stuff just like that's a good
way to try to thwart God's plans. So see, like
this leader targeting the Jews. I mean, everyone hated the Jews,
but like, well, and.
Speaker 3 (28:55):
We know that spiritual powers are very active, yes, and
what what what religion has been more hostile to Christianity
and like mildly effective at you know, at least killing
a bunch of Christians.
Speaker 1 (29:08):
Very effective. Right, it's too it's too bad, I mean,
like too bad that you missed out on today's Sunday
school because the the what's what's the name of the
intern again, Ricky, Ricky, Sorry, I only I think get
to talk to them that much. I was gone most
of the summer, but Ricky did a very good job
like overviewing like like the history of like Islam, and
(29:32):
like it's grown. Islam has grown more in like the
past ten years than any other religion in the world. Right,
Like even if you like combine like Christianity and Catholics together,
if you combine those is like once some Islam is
still like grown more than double than the both of
them have.
Speaker 4 (29:51):
Used to be like one of the strongest Christian countries.
Speaker 1 (29:55):
And it's now like Islam has been the biggest oil
for Christianity for a long time.
Speaker 2 (30:01):
It still continues to be well.
Speaker 3 (30:03):
And obviously any religion that is not of God is
of the devil, of course, But I personally think that
Satan is probably more. Maybe God has given Satan more
rain to put the forces of darkness behind Islam than
any other religion, you know, because Islam is the biggest
enemy religion of Christianity.
Speaker 2 (30:23):
We might have some mixed opinions here on that false
religions anyone, What do you mean, Catholics?
Speaker 3 (30:33):
Oh my God, Okay.
Speaker 2 (30:37):
I'm not giving my opinion.
Speaker 1 (30:39):
I actually have a question related that. So, okay, do
you have more Do we have more to say on Islam?
Speaker 2 (30:45):
Or do we want to move on and move on?
Speaker 3 (30:48):
We just call them heretics and look at what their
societies bring to the world. That's one more point I
want to make. As Christian society ends up with places
like America and like the Renaissance in Europe, islam society
leads to a bunch of people oppressing women and shooting
each other in bombing good.
Speaker 2 (31:03):
Math though for what.
Speaker 3 (31:06):
Oh hey, I mean good coffee too. I mean, I
guess they got a couple of Satan. Satan has to
have something to entice people with.
Speaker 2 (31:16):
Dang it, my only vent.
Speaker 4 (31:20):
If you get Jesus right, you know, things will fall
in place.
Speaker 3 (31:25):
That's true.
Speaker 2 (31:25):
That's true, all right, So this on.
Speaker 1 (31:30):
This is a question that was posed to me last week. Yeah,
like about a week ago at work. And basically I've
seen a couple like the Catholics make this argument against Protestants, Like,
how do you respond to Catholics who would say, we
(31:51):
are like the Bible believing church that has been around
for two thousand years and Protestantism only started with Martin
Luther and the Reformace, which was about five hundred years ago.
So are you guys saying that God allowed the false
religion to be around for fifteen hundred years only for
(32:12):
it all for one guy or a couple of guys
bring Protestanism into it and supposedly the right religion.
Speaker 2 (32:21):
Later, I have something to say, and then I'll give
the ranks to Will because he probably knows a lot
more about early Protestant Protestant esque quotation marks. Throwing quotes
up with my fingers right now. Yeah, I was, I
was like, quoting the Catholic argument there. I don't well,
I would say, usually the Catholic argument there is like
our church has sturned firm and unchanged for two thousand years,
(32:47):
representing Christianity. And what I would say to that is,
there's been quite a few changes.
Speaker 3 (32:55):
Just to say no, you haven't.
Speaker 2 (32:56):
Yeah, the easiest thing, you've been wrong. A couple died,
the easiest.
Speaker 3 (33:02):
The easiest argument to make there is just you guys
might have been around for two thousand years, but you
changed a lot in two thousand years. That's right, Like
over time, it happens with every organization on Earth. Overtime,
things get corrupt, people have bad ideas, and then it
requires a reformation of serious proportion to bring things back
(33:24):
and ultimately.
Speaker 2 (33:26):
To the original text.
Speaker 4 (33:28):
There's over three thousand theological changes in the Book of
Mormon alterations over the years we don't.
Speaker 2 (33:35):
Care about as an example of an organization changing. Yeah,
but honestly, I was actually just talking to a friend
about this as two of you know, yes, yes, and uh,
you know, it's like, actually, sorry, you think I'm pulling
out the texts. I'm just going to go through it
(33:57):
because it's interesting.
Speaker 1 (34:00):
We should even call him up.
Speaker 3 (34:06):
Another thing is you can tell if we want to
go at things from a Catholic perspective, you can tell
a church by its fruits. So if you want to
argue that the first pope was Peter, that's fine. If
you want to do that. But look at Peter he was,
he was, you know, a rock solid guy for the church.
And now you get thank you, thank you, now you
(34:27):
get now you get here, and you get you get
popes like Francis or you know, any number of bad
popes overtime the organization change. They elected bad people, and
that can show you that, you know, maybe the Catholic
Church is not what it used to be.
Speaker 4 (34:41):
Also, when you elevate a guy, especially Vatic, and he
cannot lie theology. I know Catholics people that are going
to say some things.
Speaker 3 (34:50):
I know Catholics who have bent themselves backwards lately to
say no, no. The pope wasn't in a special chair,
so that one didn't count where he said that gay
people are actually fine and all this stuff.
Speaker 2 (35:00):
But like, I wonder how that process works.
Speaker 3 (35:02):
He said, the chair of lies instead of the truth.
Speaker 2 (35:04):
It like, what does he do he didn't get rid
of Does he go to his chair, start thinking about stuff,
Maybe something come out, he'll forget it.
Speaker 4 (35:12):
Like a golden chair? Is it like special chant changed?
Speaker 3 (35:16):
Nice? I think a chair.
Speaker 4 (35:19):
He's just really relaxed, just letting them, letting the brain.
Speaker 3 (35:23):
Yeah, yeah, today God said, oh.
Speaker 2 (35:29):
My gosh, but he needs a nap because.
Speaker 4 (35:33):
I guess, right, I guess unless Nicky were going to say.
Speaker 2 (35:36):
More, yeah, I was gonna say, I gotta send it
real again. Sorry Ethan gave, but I was senting real
should I be?
Speaker 4 (35:45):
Who cares?
Speaker 2 (35:46):
Okay?
Speaker 4 (35:48):
Center real?
Speaker 2 (35:48):
It is like, oh, you know, you really think Jesus
said I'm going to start my church and let me
be wrong for fifteen hundred years. Martin Luther is gonna
fix it all. And then while my respect was, I mean,
Martin Luther kind of fixed your church, and your church
kind of agreed with him. So like, what are we
saying here? Because indulgences for the crowd who doesn't know
(36:12):
what an indulgence.
Speaker 3 (36:13):
Was, to look at this Bible aristocrat over here.
Speaker 2 (36:18):
The Catholic Church sold these things called indulgences, and they
were basically a it was a remission of sense that
you could buy with money. And everyone knows this. You
can't really deny this that whoever the pope was at
the time was just doing this specifically to pay for
the Saints. Peter Ballista or whatever you called Catholic to
(36:41):
buy that agrees. It's a pretty pretty cool, pretty cool building.
I will say, like the architecture the means to get
it though I don't know, very very questionable. Yeah, I
mean like Martin Luther. You know, he wrote the ninety
five theses put on that door the church. Kind of
(37:01):
a gangster for that. Oh but uh behavior when he
did that, I basically split Europe into caused the pro
Reformation and pretty much backed the Catholic Church into a
corner and forced them to reform, which is what happened.
So I mean, yeah, Martin Luther kind of did fix
(37:21):
some stuff in a way.
Speaker 3 (37:23):
Well, another thing is that Martin Luther wasn't the first
guy who just said like, hey, the Catholic Church isn't
right like it. Yeah, he was the biggest one, but
there since the time of whenever the Catholics say their
church started, there have been people who disagreed with them,
and somehow the Lord has kept the church.
Speaker 2 (37:38):
They were just heavily persecuted hill nowadays.
Speaker 3 (37:41):
Just because the Catholic Church was the biggest, it doesn't
mean that Protestant Protestantism doesn't have roots that go just
as far back.
Speaker 2 (37:48):
Exactly, most people are probably not real Christians.
Speaker 3 (37:52):
And by the way, I say everything I say about
the Catholics as somebody who respects the Catholics and has
Catholic family, and I think that in some ways Catholics
are better servants of the Lord than some Protestant denominations are.
They're very firm on like abortion or you know, homosexuality.
I'm not talking about the church. I'm talking about the
people in the church. The Church I very much dislike,
(38:15):
but good solid Catholics I don't have a problem with.
And I think that they just get some stuff wrong,
and ultimately I consider them brothers and sisters in Christ.
I know that not everybody at this table would say that,
but I'd just like to say, I'm making fun of
your pope, but I still would.
Speaker 1 (38:31):
I respect you, And it's about you know, it's about
its history and you know, ironing out those points where
we collide with each other.
Speaker 2 (38:42):
Right, anything we want to say on the theology aspect,
elogy aspect, will.
Speaker 4 (38:51):
I guess where I come in. Yeah, let's here right
on the whole topic is you're all going the hell Well,
that's how I how I see when you're looking at
a certain sect of religion or a certain religion as
a whole, what the I guess the group that you
(39:15):
have to look at and judge strictly is the devote group.
Thinking of it this way, you have a bunch of Christians.
You have the ones who hold the Bible to the
ultimate authority, who obey the words of Christ and everything
the scriptures say and hold firm to it. And then
you have some other people in the church that they're like, oh, yeah,
(39:37):
I'm Christian, but you know, I don't really care what
the Old Testament. I mean, Jesus he I guess God like,
I don't really I don't really buy this stuff. I
kind of live like every everyone else. But you know,
I'm I'm Christian, I'm part of this church. I go
to church and say, right, you would look at that
person and be like, I'm sorry, buddy, you're not a Christian. Yeah,
(39:58):
that's just how it is. So when you're judging a religion,
it has to be okay, what is the devout group?
For Muslims have to do the religious people right, and
it's those devout groups are I guess I would say
that those are the people that are dedicated to their
Holy Book, that take their Holy Book and they live
(40:21):
like you know, they basically live by the book that
that devout group, and that's how we view Christians. Obviously,
you don't have to have like a briefing figured as
far as theology, but you have to have an understanding
of what it says and actually uphold it. And a
lot of the Catholic tradition, whether it's indulgences or the
(40:45):
Rosary or the ideas of Mary or any of the
other ideas that they have works. The groups that are
like you would say the church, the ones that have
the authority, the ones that are we are actually devoted.
You might have Catholics that are like, I could take
it or I don't really care what the pope says. Well,
(41:06):
it's like, okay, the devote group cares a lot about
what the pope says. This is like, then this is
the teaching of the churches that the pope is very important,
and all of these practices are very important. Where I
would say that they would differ in what Galatians would
call a different gospel is where if your practice is
(41:27):
your active practices, which you would call, you know, the
reverence of exercising your faith, are contrary to what the
Bible teaches, especially about Jesus. With indulgences meaning, Okay, we
need to give money to the church in order that
my family member has to serve less of a sentence
(41:50):
in purgatory, so they have to suffer less. I'll just
give money and that shortens up their time, which at
the core of it says Jesus his sacrifice was not enough. Money,
is Jesus what he did for having faith in Jesus
was not enough. We still have to, you know, pay
for some of our sin. So the core of that,
(42:11):
that is not the gospel. Because Galatians like one there
especially with works, because that's in the Catholic Church, that
was in the Jewish faith that your works helped to
make you writs is your works show that you know,
this is the exercise of your faith, which we would
believe to an extent. But where they take it with
their certain prayers, with their idea of Mary, with a
(42:32):
lot of the classical Catholic traditions that sure, your everyday
Catholic might not agree with a lot of them. But
the people that are tight to the book, tight to
the group the religion actually devoted, those people are practicing
these those people are saying you need to do all
of these things. And that's where I would say where
(42:52):
there would be a difference between Christians and Catholics, I
wouldn't at all put them in the same category, or
that a lot of Catholics are saved for the reason
if your practice, because your beliefs will influence how you act,
if your beliefs lead you to act in a way
(43:13):
that is contrary to what Jesus, either say Jesus was
not enough, or to say we you know we. I
guess some people would say, oh, we can, we can
pray directly to God. But you know, I'd rather have
my buddy Mary or one of these one of my
you know saints do it for me, because you know
that'll be better. I guess it all heads back again,
(43:35):
like I was saying, if you get Jesus right, the
rest will follow. So I would say there's a possibility
that there might be some people in the Catholic Church
that are genuinely saved and have a correct understanding, but
that'll either lead them to leave the church or in
their own devotion of time, make steps in the direction
(43:56):
of Okay, I don't need to pray the Rosary anymore.
I don't need just said I don't need. I mean
I can't think of the rest of the practices.
Speaker 1 (44:05):
But I don't think they don't practice indulgence in practice,
even by the Roman Catholics.
Speaker 4 (44:11):
I mean, I've been saying when it used to be like,
when your belief system leads you to do well, leads
you to believe things in your tradition that are contrary
to what the Word of God says, then I'm sorry,
that's that's a different gospel.
Speaker 1 (44:26):
Right, So Will agrees, Well, what was our agreed? I
think that I think that I think that I agreed
with that last point you made. I don't know what
do you guys have to say on it?
Speaker 3 (44:44):
Did you zone out my.
Speaker 2 (44:46):
Opinion and zone out too many times? I I don't know.
I really couldn't think of anything really wrong with what
Will said. I think, I don't know. I mean it
just is it Is it wrong to say the Catholic
(45:09):
Church is heretical? I don't think so.
Speaker 4 (45:14):
If they have, if they're worshiping a different Jesus and
it's evident through their practices.
Speaker 2 (45:19):
What do you mean different Jesus?
Speaker 4 (45:20):
Well, like with well their idea, I can't think of
the exact like what i'd have to It's I did
a whole study on this like six months ago. Some
Pollemis from a long time ago, but whatever. They don't
do indulgences anymore, but the teaching of indulgences discounts the
(45:42):
sacrifice in the atonement of Christ. We're kind of talking
about modern parts of the Rosary. There's like the fifteen
fifteen prayers to marry or something. I forget exactly how
that goes, but there's a lot of theology in there
that I've messed up in contrary to scripture.
Speaker 1 (46:00):
That's kind of like letting you take the rings because
you know, you're more familiar with like actual like like
modern Catholic practices than I am.
Speaker 4 (46:08):
Kind of.
Speaker 2 (46:10):
I mean, I was there. I've been to a Roman
Catholic youth group and they did pray the Rosary. Oh,
I guess I just hid myself on the mic. It
took like, oh my goodness, that took like thirty minutes,
and we repeated the like the same It was about
like a page and we repeated the same thing over
(46:31):
and over again. But it would like it was like this,
there was different segments of little bits and they would
like go through them and then like cross like across
which one they read each time it was weird. And
then there's also because like the beads on the rosary,
I think, like you go a bead at a time, Yeah,
(46:53):
to get through the whole thing. Yeah, that helps you
remember the prayers. I don't think. But like, I mean,
that was just straight up vane report Titians.
Speaker 1 (47:00):
I mean, yeah, if it's just repetition, like like, where's
the actual meaning behind your words? So I guess to
summarize my belief on it, I think I agree with
like the thesis of your your whole speech of as
long as like the genuine love for Jesus is there,
then you know, everything else will fall in place.
Speaker 4 (47:23):
That's what I would say. More the right the biblical
view of Jesus, I say, I just I love you know,
I love Jesus.
Speaker 3 (47:32):
But Jesus can be I don't think so though, because
Paul says that without love you have nothing. I mean love,
love of God is essential to live out what God
desires for you. You can know everything right about Jesus,
you could know, you know, you could be absolutely right
in all your theological beliefs, but you could still live
like a heathen and not even be saved. It's not
(47:53):
just that you get right the facts about Jesus is
that you get right your belief and your attitude towards
and your faith in Jesus.
Speaker 2 (48:02):
Yeah, belief, belief has been watered down. I think just
the word belief has been people.
Speaker 1 (48:08):
I think Christians use it as like the as like
the saving word. But that's not necessarily true, because you know,
even the Christians the common Verse, even the demons believe
in Christ.
Speaker 2 (48:21):
And tremble.
Speaker 3 (48:22):
Didn't I get in trouble for saying that last very
first podcast.
Speaker 1 (48:25):
You gotta cause a bunch of controversy because you you
just butchered the wording a little bit.
Speaker 3 (48:30):
That was it. I mean, okay, guys, I'm human. Who
I think Ben?
Speaker 2 (48:33):
Ben?
Speaker 3 (48:35):
She was totally looking for something to get me on.
Speaker 2 (48:38):
Yeah.
Speaker 3 (48:39):
Wait, Ben was on the cop that sits on the
road side any ways for you to go forty six
and forty five run somebody over.
Speaker 2 (48:51):
Anyway. But I'm surprised Ben game here. You're surprised you
didn't know he came on.
Speaker 4 (48:58):
Ago?
Speaker 3 (48:59):
It was it was like, why would you be surprised
that Ben wanted to share his opinion?
Speaker 2 (49:06):
Uh, you should listen to it. It was a good episode.
Speaker 3 (49:09):
It was a episode.
Speaker 2 (49:12):
What does this guy think he is?
Speaker 3 (49:19):
Anyway? What else?
Speaker 1 (49:23):
I was just gonna say, I didn't get to finish
my point about talking about well earlier.
Speaker 2 (49:30):
Shoot, where where we are we holding too that people
can get saved from a false gospel? No?
Speaker 1 (49:37):
No, but I think I think there's a lot of
I guess my thing is like, I feel like there's
a lot of Catholic practices that don't necessarily get Jesus wrong.
Maybe they're misled and I disagree with them.
Speaker 2 (49:51):
But well a lot of them are just kind of confused,
like a specifically about Jesus. Are they getting wrong? Yeah,
that's I guess.
Speaker 4 (50:00):
I'd have to pull up some specific examples.
Speaker 3 (50:02):
Well, like a lot of the Catholic traditions are just
adding on, like confession is not a bad thing at all.
It just you know, like the act of going to confessions.
Speaker 2 (50:10):
Well, the belief that you need to confess to a
priest right wrong on the sacraments, it's not a bad
thing to do.
Speaker 3 (50:17):
It's just as soon as you elevate it to the
place of you need to do this. You're adding on
to scripture, which is a common theme throughout Catholic theology
is that they get a lot of the baseline ideas right,
and then they add to them. And if they just
took away the necessity of certain traditions, they would be fine.
Speaker 4 (50:33):
Romans, which I guess would be kind of connected to
Jesus when it says like if any man sins, we
have an advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ, who's a
propitiation for our sins, but not on the eyes, but
also the whole world, like your necessity, like the necessities
I need to go to a priest to get my
sins forgiven. Bible says that Jesus is our high priest right,
(50:56):
so obviously you're not going to him, so he is
not elevated as whatever.
Speaker 2 (51:00):
Where does it say only Jesus is the mediator between
us and the Father or something like that.
Speaker 4 (51:05):
Media like what would.
Speaker 2 (51:08):
Even I read that after the Bible study even say
to that, really, I.
Speaker 3 (51:19):
Would probably say something like sometimes Jesus.
Speaker 1 (51:21):
So I guess to summarize my own opinion on the
Catholic Church, it's probably very similar to to Isaac's. Is
I disagree with like the institution on most things, and
I think it's there's a lot of heresy there. But
I think a lot of the Catholics I've talked to,
a lot of the Catholics I know very well, have
from what I've seen, a very genuine love for Jesus,
(51:41):
and a lot of what they participate in terms of
the Catholic practices.
Speaker 3 (51:45):
Is more out of you know, either they enjoying the tradition.
Speaker 1 (51:50):
Enjoying the tradition, or it's seeking reverence or just like
they like they like the almost like the I guess
like the I don't know the word for it, but
I guess like because it feels almost like you're doing
so it feels like feels more respectful.
Speaker 2 (52:08):
Yeah, I've heard that a lot about Orthodox churches, Eastern Orthodox. Yeah,
the Orthodox Churches are like they're kind of like the
in between Catholic and.
Speaker 3 (52:17):
Get the Anglicans, which are really half between Protestantism and Catholic.
Speaker 2 (52:21):
There is a good point, yeah, you know, like the
the Catholic Church. The whole thing about the Catholic Church
being right for two thousand years or whatever, like did
they split with the Orthodox Church? And when anyone anyone
know the date off the Dome? I don't know that
off the dome.
Speaker 3 (52:35):
Forget, but like the Orthodoxy. The Orthodox Church is very
ancient too.
Speaker 1 (52:41):
I guess what you're saying, yeah, and it's yeah, the
Catholic Church wasn't the only like Christian.
Speaker 4 (52:46):
They don't the does the Catholic Church think that they
were the only like they were?
Speaker 2 (52:53):
They think it's all they think that they were.
Speaker 1 (52:57):
They think that they were the church that stemmed directly
from one of Christ's apostles being down Peter like they
think Peter.
Speaker 4 (53:02):
I don't even know if that verse in Matthew sixteen
is I would hold a different interpretation of that vice.
Speaker 2 (53:09):
Oh really, really, I would disagree.
Speaker 4 (53:11):
You disagree with that interpretation.
Speaker 2 (53:13):
You're going to the to the like on the yeah,
the rock where I will build my church.
Speaker 3 (53:19):
But the whole problem with that is that where Paul says,
you know, some follow Apollos and some follow this guy,
and some follow this guy. He starts to say, you know,
there's one church, Like, you don't get a church. You
don't get a church based on what on your token apostle,
you know what I mean, Like Presbyterians aren't derived from
like Matthew or something. Right, there's one church. It's the
Church of Jesus Christ, not the Church of Jesus Christ
(53:41):
of Latter Day.
Speaker 1 (53:41):
Saying, it's like, well, like the spiritual Church, there's it's
not there's not one physical church. There's the spiritual Church
body which we are all saved Christians are a part of. Right,
all born again Christians are a part of.
Speaker 4 (53:53):
Cool.
Speaker 2 (53:53):
Thing about the split though with the Catholic Church and
the Orthodox churches. You know why they split, It's because
of for for the Eucharist, it was on eleven bread
or eleven bread, That's why they split. I'm pretty sure
flat no, it's supposed to be puppy.
Speaker 4 (54:14):
I prefer about we need those Hawaiian ross.
Speaker 2 (54:17):
If it's okay, if it's non bread, I prefer non bread.
Non bread is not love not.
Speaker 4 (54:23):
I'm pretty sure.
Speaker 2 (54:24):
I'm it's like like but flat bread, like it's like
it's like a pita. I love bread. It's basically like
a pita. But it's like Indian.
Speaker 3 (54:37):
Every time a Baptist church splits, by the way, it's
because somebody didn't like what they brought, what somebody else
brought to the church luncheon.
Speaker 2 (54:43):
Yeah, honestly, I just want I just want to listen
to a podcast about that, really church splitting and stuff
and how like we could not be making new denominations
and splitting churches because you don't like the socks the
guy where something like that.
Speaker 1 (55:01):
Yeah, they they they're a little bit too a modest
at this church. We need to split again and promote
more modesty. They were wearing shorts, the women were wearing pants. Unforgivable, unforgivable.
Speaker 2 (55:15):
There's a topic there head coverings. Should women be wearing
headcoverings in church? I say, I really think so, because
from what I've gotten, the hair is the head covering. Yeah,
maybe it is a head covering unless you're ball from
That's why it says it's the pestable for a woman
(55:36):
that was short hair or whatever, but.
Speaker 1 (55:38):
Does say that's it also says, either like in the
same passage or somewhere else, like the glory of a
woman woman is in her hair, right, or something like that.
Speaker 4 (55:49):
I don't I don't have enough of a stance on
head coverings.
Speaker 1 (55:53):
And yeah, my my understanding has always been mixed, where
it's like it's not talking about a physical like hat
or something, it's talking about having hair that's well kept, honorable. Yeah, anyway,
a new job still a little or less Mormonism Mormonism.
(56:15):
We don't need to go through every single we don't church.
There's here's like a more. I guess here's a more,
like I guess a brain like a Christian brain teaser.
So this one is this question. So I went to
an online Bible online like Bible high school, like like
Christian high schools.
Speaker 2 (56:37):
No, it was reformed. It wasn't like it didn't have
liked reformed.
Speaker 3 (56:42):
I'm pretty sure it's reformed.
Speaker 2 (56:43):
Yeah, they might, I think.
Speaker 4 (56:46):
Reformed Christian high Reformed high school.
Speaker 2 (56:50):
Yeah, I don't know. They're high school. Yeah, they identify
as reformed, but I don't think.
Speaker 1 (56:57):
I don't think like it leads into the teaching very
much because most of the students there are not reformed.
Speaker 2 (57:03):
Yeah, I know most of them were.
Speaker 3 (57:04):
Most Christians aren't reformed.
Speaker 2 (57:06):
I think you're probably right about that.
Speaker 1 (57:08):
I don't know statistics, but one of the teachers in
one of the class like posed this question off the
cuff to the students. And this is when I was
like like fifteen years old. So I don't know, I
don't know, I don't know anything.
Speaker 2 (57:20):
I don't know how to answer it.
Speaker 1 (57:21):
But this is this is the one I've I've always
been curious about how certain Christians will answer it. So,
imagine you are a pastor of a church. Okay, imagine
you're a pastor of a church and the lesbian couple.
Speaker 3 (57:35):
What denomination am I?
Speaker 2 (57:38):
Whatever? Done?
Speaker 3 (57:39):
I'm just gonna be like thet you guys here, the pastor,
you guys want to preach the sermon today.
Speaker 2 (57:43):
You're the pastor.
Speaker 4 (57:44):
You know the church.
Speaker 2 (57:45):
You built the church, You built it, You built the
ur yourself, you church.
Speaker 1 (57:53):
Anyway, So a lesbian couple who have already adopted a
child for several years, they come into the church and
they sit down on the sermon and they say they
want to be a part of the church.
Speaker 2 (58:06):
What do you do in that situation?
Speaker 3 (58:08):
That's a really hard one because well, first of all,
let me start by saying I don't think that's going
to happen. I just want to say, like people, this
is this is a situation that is not going to happen.
Speaker 2 (58:24):
I feel like I would disagree to you.
Speaker 4 (58:28):
I feel like that's looking for a sense of spirituality.
Speaker 1 (58:31):
Yeah, I feel like that's also no offense, a little
bit of a cop out because I guess why why
couldn't it happen?
Speaker 3 (58:38):
My point is that, Well, I guess it's extremely unlikely
to happen, because what lesbian couple, what lesbian couple that's
already adopted a child, is suddenly going to be like, oh,
let's go to church.
Speaker 1 (58:47):
Mostly are like the question for that to have happened
to take example, like what if like they just grew
up never really learning about it. Like the only things
that here is like, oh, like the church has like
historically not been kind to Like that's why they wouldn't
want But like they they like come to the general
(59:09):
revelationation that oh I feel convicted that there's a God,
or like I'm seeing all this evidence that there has
to be a God.
Speaker 4 (59:19):
Or they just want some some kind of spirituality.
Speaker 1 (59:21):
Yeah, they want some kind of spirituality. Like let's you know,
let's go visit a church and see what, you know,
see what happens.
Speaker 3 (59:29):
I would hope that if I'm preaching the sermon, that
would be enough to make them realize, oh, this church
is not spiritual, and hopefully from there they would go, well,
this church isn't spiritual. That's a good thing. It's more
I'm not going to get that spiritual feeling here. I
actually have to decide if I want to be a Christian,
if I'm going to stay at this church, so hopefully
(59:49):
that's where they would come to. But if they just
were like, we're going to keep living in sin and
raising this kid, I would be like, I mean, you
can come back to church, you can listen to the sermon,
but you're I'm not You're not getting involved in anything here,
you know, until you until you become Christians. And I
(01:00:11):
don't know what I would advise them to do on
the kid. I mean, that is a tough one. Like
the morally correct thing to do, I guess would be
to find an actual functional family for the child. But
it's like that's where you get into the weeds with
Like it's so complicated depending on how long the child
has already been with them, whether it wants to stay
(01:00:31):
with them, there are lots of familiar connections there. I mean,
the right thing to do, like I said, would be
to get the child the proper family.
Speaker 2 (01:00:39):
How old is a child?
Speaker 3 (01:00:40):
Like, that's just say that, like five years old is
the child?
Speaker 4 (01:00:44):
Much of this doesn't matter if they have this child.
Speaker 2 (01:00:47):
As far as the question, well.
Speaker 1 (01:00:49):
That's that's how it was presented to me when I
was first asked, I think, I think my teacher is
a very like, very like smart man. He wrote like
books on rhetoric and logic, like some of the textbooks
for the school, so he's like he's big on like
logical problems. I think he put that in there because
like it's not like it makes it harder to like
(01:01:12):
I guess break them up in a sense, like yeah,
it does, like because like they're already like settled down
with the child. Like how you're gonna like, how are
you gonna go up and tell them you have to
like break this apart because it's not biblical, which that's
like true, but like how do you tell somebody who
as a kid that like that? Whereas like if like
(01:01:33):
there was just like a gay type couple with no
children who came in, if they're willing to listen and
they were receptive, you could say this isn't biblical, it
would be easier for them to break it apart. But
if there's a child involved, that makes it harder because
you can't because like most people agree that like children
need like a strong family, strong healthy family, Like most
(01:01:54):
people would would a father, yeah, yeah, exactly, a father
and everything.
Speaker 4 (01:02:00):
Yeah, I would say, I would agree with mister mister
Zilbaauer on uh, pretty much everything. I guess the way
I would approach it. They came in kind of same
thing I'd allow obviously, I want them saves me a
lot of work from then you know, they're sitting here
hearing it rather than me going to find them to
(01:02:22):
hear it. Say, it saves me some time. Sure, But
as far as if they after the like oh this
is this is pretty cool. I mean, they're not really
willing to give up any their lifestyle or anything. They're like, hey,
we want to join a church because we had a
situation exactly like this at our church where one of
my mom's friends not saved, and it came to our
church and she loved the people. She was like, these
(01:02:44):
people are great. They're so friendly. Everyone's so nice. They're
like they want to make me meals, come help me
clean up my house, and I want to be around
these people. I'm that's sold in the whole Jesus thing.
But I like the people, and so she wanted to
be a member of the church. Joined the church and
sat down my mom and are pastor and basically explain
(01:03:05):
to where the church is the Body of Christ, children
of God. This is for our main job here is
for Christians to meet together, to encourage each other and
to help each other.
Speaker 3 (01:03:21):
Yeah, it's not a social club.
Speaker 4 (01:03:22):
It's not. Obviously, people are welcome to come and hear
the gospel and respond, but like you said, there's not
You're not going to be involved in things if your
goal and your desire is contrary to the goals of
those around you who are trying to further the Gospel
and their community, further the Gospel in the hearts of
(01:03:44):
their children and help each other. Like I forget exactly
where it talks about. But if Paul or someone New
Testament says, like it's kind of crazy, but they say,
prefer Christian. If you have if you between a Christian
and non Christian and favor the Christian, prefer the Christian.
Take care of your fellow brother and sister in Christ.
(01:04:06):
Obviously there is room to help the sick and the
needy and to be salt and light in the world.
But as far as the church goes, this is a
meeting for those who have accepted Christ, and you cannot
be a part of it if your lifestyle and your
belief system is contrary to that, You're welcome to come
(01:04:28):
and respond and receive Christ. It's going to happen. Is
the Holy Spirit's going to show you the way that
you're living is wrong. Sure, you're gonna have to make
a choice.
Speaker 3 (01:04:37):
S Let me add on to your question, what if
all that we mentioned already happens, and then on top
of all that, they start instead of just coming and absorbing,
they start actively teaching, you know, actively trying to change
people's minds that hey, we're not sitting. They start kind
of infiltrating the church. The kid starts talking about as
(01:04:58):
two mommies to other kids, like it's normal, and they
start to think it's normal, and they start killing that.
In that case, I think, like when, at what point
do you kick them out?
Speaker 2 (01:05:06):
I think at that there, I think at that point,
I think that's the line.
Speaker 1 (01:05:09):
Yeah, Like like if I are in the situation, it
would be very similar to that, where it's like I
would let them come because you know, it's I think
it's unbiblical to like not let somebody hear the teaching
of God, and I would make it clear that the
way they're living is not you know, biblical, and it's
not approved by the Bible, and because of that, you
can't you know, participate in any you can't be involved
(01:05:32):
in the church until you know something's done about it.
And if you're you know, if you want to make
steps to improve on that, we're here to help. And
we are here to help, you know, find a better
place for the child, or you know, help out with
the child. But you know, you guys got to take
that first step. But you're welcome to come and listen
to the sermons whenever. But if it gets to the
point where they try to actively work against the teachings
(01:05:55):
of my church, because in this situation, I'm I'm the
pastor of like work against the eaching of my church
and like go against my authority. In that case, like
church discipline is necessary, and I need to say it's
sorry if you're gonna.
Speaker 3 (01:06:06):
Be if they start telling doing this, then they start
to leave. If they start telling your Mormon congregation that
it's not sinful to drink hot caffeinated drinks, get out straight,
get out kick the baseball.
Speaker 2 (01:06:22):
No, you guess it, very very insightful answers to that, glad.
Speaker 4 (01:06:28):
Give anything to an or we would go into the
next kind of covered.
Speaker 2 (01:06:31):
It or I think we think we got all the
main points. Don't think we all pretty much agree on that. Yeah, yeah,
we wanna, we wanna kind of. I don't know if
meet people where they're at is the right word, but
we certainly want to expose people to the Gospel no
matter where they are at in life. Doesn't mean we're
(01:06:54):
going to conform to their worldview and help them fit
in just to get them in there, because the true church,
the church is the congregation of believers, not believers, and
some other writers that's what it is.
Speaker 4 (01:07:07):
There's even some Christs they're like, oh, well, I want
this person to get safe, so I'm going to bring
them to church with me. Sounds fine when it seems.
Speaker 3 (01:07:15):
Like a fine idea, that is a fine idea.
Speaker 4 (01:07:17):
It's just but it's responsibility the individual. They should take
that time and be like, Okay, I am going to
share the Gospel with this individual.
Speaker 3 (01:07:27):
Well, and it's not even necessarily the responsibility of the
church to only be evangelistic, right, A lot of it
is to build I mean, that's why the church exists
for the edification of other Christians. And obviously you never
want to ignore the great commission and that you know,
of course, any good church, you're going to hear the
word of the Gospel every week throughout the service.
Speaker 4 (01:07:51):
Christ centered.
Speaker 3 (01:07:52):
It's going to be very Christ's centered. But there are
a lot of other aspects to a church that the
church should have for the uh, the benefit of those
who are already you know, believing in Christ. Because if
more seasoned Christians keep coming back only to hear the gospel.
I mean, it's great to hear the Gospel over and
over again, but there needs to be more than that
(01:08:15):
to help people grow in their faith and become more
godly as well.
Speaker 2 (01:08:20):
Yeah, what do you got for us? Will those are
all like the like the really deep deep ones A
little you know, I think I's got something.
Speaker 3 (01:08:35):
This is something stupid, I know, I think it's serious.
Speaker 2 (01:08:44):
I have conversed with my dear friend, uh, well, person
will hear about this already, and we had quite a
conversation about it. I was kind of half asleep riding
a bike.
Speaker 3 (01:08:58):
I was.
Speaker 2 (01:08:59):
I was fearing for his life while we're having But
all right, I'll just say it here.
Speaker 3 (01:09:04):
It is here, it is.
Speaker 2 (01:09:05):
Here's a big question. If you were put into a
situation where you were being heavily persecuted, yes, and told
that unless you deny Christ, people are gonna torture your
entire family and kill them. And you gotta watch. We'll
throw that in there too, you gotta watch. Shikes, what
do you do because as we know, scripture says those
(01:09:28):
who deny me, I deny the Father, or they will
be denied. Yeah, if you deny me, I will deny
you in the face of the Father. Correct, Because and
this isn't like a I don't think this is like
a rare scenario because if you look at church history, yeah,
there's a lot of cases, especially during like I mean,
(01:09:49):
I was just listening to a podcast about this. I
mean the church. Actually, people in the church got into
a big fight over this because people would hold to
that and not deny Christ, and then they would have
people in the church, they would have family members who
died for that. Because the Romans, one of the things
(01:10:09):
that I forget the Roman emperor's name, it might have
been nearro isn't narrow. He uh basically put it in
there that you have to deny your faith otherwise. I mean,
in a lot of cases you were killed or you
were just denied. This is a different emperor that did this,
but you were denied basically this thing that allowed you
(01:10:31):
to buy and sell goods yea, which was a pretty
big thing back in the day. Yeah, but uh, basically
that your church society and the church split over this
because they would have some people have family members who
died for that, and then other people weren't uphold to
(01:10:52):
that part of scripture. And you know, you can see
where that would go because like, what are you going
to think of the person who didn't do what your
family member did? Your family member died horrifically because of it.
Speaker 3 (01:11:03):
Right, Well, the thing about this question, and this is
going to sound really harsh, but ultimately, the glory of
God is worth the death of people. I mean that
is what the whole human race was created to do,
is glorify God. Now, practically speaking, would I actually be like, oh, yeah,
(01:11:26):
you can kill me and I'm my whole family.
Speaker 2 (01:11:28):
I don't die your family, oh just my family.
Speaker 3 (01:11:31):
I mean, denying Christ is sin, and that's something that
we should try and avoid at all costs. Practically, I've
denied God for a lot less. I'm just going to
say that there have been time every time we sin,
we're denying God for way less than you know, we're
going to torture your family.
Speaker 2 (01:11:51):
Yeah, oftentimes it's for our unselfish reason.
Speaker 3 (01:11:55):
So without the grace of God. And I mean I'm
talking like I would need a a lot a lot
of grace and a lot of help, I would probably
just say, all right, you know what, guys, lay off
and don't kill my family. To be honest, I know
myself and that's what my flesh would do. And I
mean I would of course pray for God's help, and
(01:12:17):
with the Holy Spirit's help, I would be brave enough
to say I can't. I can't do that. I can't
deny my Lord and Savior because ultimately Jesus loves me
more than my family does. He's done so much more
for me than my family has. It's just this is
a very harsh question because you feel like such a
bad person for saying, well, yeah, you can kill my
(01:12:37):
whole family or.
Speaker 1 (01:12:38):
Bad for either one, because it's like, yeah, I mean,
that's kind of the point of the question. Is it's
supposed to be like you're stuck between two bad outcomes, right, It's.
Speaker 3 (01:12:47):
Like you got to choose a lesser of two evil
But this goes back to what we were talking about earlier,
is that if you do, if you to serve God,
his will will be done ultimately. And that's that's really
the only comforting thing you can have if you're going
to say, well, you can kill my whole family, is
that God's will is going to be done.
Speaker 4 (01:13:07):
Your integrity before God has been pure right.
Speaker 3 (01:13:11):
And it's a harsh saying, but I think that is
ultimately more important than the lives of mortals. And hopefully
your family is Christian too, so at least you know
that you're going to see them again.
Speaker 2 (01:13:24):
But what if they're not Christian? What if you.
Speaker 3 (01:13:29):
I mean, because then you know what, then that's uh,
that's even harder. Man. You can't. You can't even if I.
Speaker 1 (01:13:41):
Like, if you have non Christian family, like saying like
allowing them to die your ship being damning well.
Speaker 3 (01:13:48):
And and if it were you dying, they could look
at you and be like, man, this guy really believed
maybe I should turn around if you if they see
being like you can die for me, then like this
guy's was a jerk.
Speaker 4 (01:14:00):
This religion, I guess the only difference is one it
wouldn't be the choice of that Christian decide. Oh wait,
if it was I mean I should be like, okay,
kill us instead of our family.
Speaker 2 (01:14:10):
Obviously, if I was given opportunity to do that. But
I don't.
Speaker 3 (01:14:14):
And this.
Speaker 4 (01:14:16):
Not as far as what I would say as far
as the family that isn't saved, is they also have
their personal responsibility before God, like they have made their
choices up until this point. I mean, this is your
life can be taken from you from in an instant.
This might just happen that instant.
Speaker 2 (01:14:35):
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (01:14:35):
And it also says in the Bible like everybody like
my truth is like evident to all people, so nobody
is like without excuse.
Speaker 4 (01:14:43):
Yeah, I have a follow up question. It's like this
point of the question, except okay, So this is this,
This was an actual issue that happened in the early church.
This is something they're trying to figure out. What if
a person in the church, Christian in the church denies
(01:15:05):
Jesus says, whatever if we pick it backing off of that,
I don't want my family coach, I'm just going to
deny Christ. I don't or I don't want to die.
I'm just gonna deny them. They end up making it
through the persecution without dying, obviously, because if they denounce
Christ and they're fine, sure, they end up making it
through Persecution's over, you have your under either's I forget
(01:15:31):
which which emperor put in I should notice put in
like a time of peace for the Christians. Constantine it
was like we need peace for Christians. Okay, So imagine this.
You have all those people that denied under Nero that lived,
(01:15:51):
they come back and they're like, hey, we want to
we want to rejoin the church. Do you let them
or do not? They denied Christ.
Speaker 3 (01:15:58):
During I would, I would argue just because of the
example of Peter.
Speaker 2 (01:16:02):
Yeah, that's what I've.
Speaker 3 (01:16:05):
Yeah, exactly, But I mean, the interesting thing is that
Christianity actually spreads better when there's tons of persecution Philippines,
It's true. So will those people actually come back to
the church or will they be like, oh, this is
great now I can now I now we don't have
an idiot emperor anymore. And I don't I don't need it.
Speaker 4 (01:16:23):
But what happens I guess because their their issue which
I forget which book talks about it or just early
church history, but they're generally trying to figure out, Okay,
what if this happens again? What if we have another guy,
Are you just going to ditch all of us again
like you did the first point and family that dies
because you rejected?
Speaker 2 (01:16:41):
I think good context to have in this scenario as well,
is like kind of the viewpoint on this was martyrdom
was kind of a gift from God in some sense.
Speaker 3 (01:16:50):
I guess. I guess this question is really one that
we ask ourselves because just just at a much bigger scale, right,
like to live is Christ? Or every time we leaves Christ,
every time we sin and come back, God could say
the same thing to us, like, well, I don't know
that you're not going to do that again, so I'm
not going to let you back in the right. And
(01:17:13):
it's the same thing just at a much larger scale
for the people who deny Christ and then come back.
And I mean, obviously that's cowardice and you shouldn't have
done that, and you should have just lived for your
savior and died for your savior. But it's very I
think it's actually pretty unfair from our point of view
if we say to those people, well, you guys, are
(01:17:34):
you guys denied Christ once and now you can't come back.
That's not That's not what God wants for us.
Speaker 1 (01:17:40):
To judge right, so don't experience anything like that. It's
really hard for us to say this in our modern context.
Speaker 2 (01:17:50):
Like Christians are obviously still persecuted and in contes well
even in America in different ways more more in like
social ways, they're kind of ostracized.
Speaker 4 (01:18:02):
But that's people just don't like them.
Speaker 2 (01:18:06):
I mean, it's like who who hates on? I mean,
this is just I was, This is not this is
not me speaking here. I've seen heard a bunch of
people say this, But who hates on Islam or whoever?
As much as people hate on does.
Speaker 4 (01:18:21):
But it's like I.
Speaker 2 (01:18:23):
Try not to call that persecution because like persecution like
early Church is like very different.
Speaker 1 (01:18:30):
I will, like people make fun of us for believing
in this big deal, Like what are your words gonna
do to me? Like I'm like, I'm physically fine, I
can live my best life. Otherwise, like people in the
early Church or like during the times of the Romans,
like they were like they were constant like worry of
death and like going hungry. We just because of their
(01:18:52):
belief for Christ, we just have.
Speaker 3 (01:18:54):
Intolerance where it is very different.
Speaker 2 (01:18:57):
We get is like we get like made fun of
for believing.
Speaker 4 (01:19:00):
Yeah, okay that or when I evangelizing afraid of Christ
they deep down now just like I don't want to
talk to you. Like it's hitting out tracks with some
friends and I was like, oh, would you like this track?
Like what's it about? So it goes to the Gospel
of Jesus Christ, how it's changed, and they're like, no,
We'll keep walking.
Speaker 3 (01:19:19):
Once in a while, you end up with the government,
you know, trying to look for things that like Christian
advocus see groups do wrong and as far as taxes
or whatever. You know, there's some of that going on
in the United States, but it's not it's nothing.
Speaker 4 (01:19:33):
Like all you get is like, oh, I'm not patriotic.
Speaker 3 (01:19:36):
Yeah, it's like guess what, guys, It's like, you guys
are hateful.
Speaker 4 (01:19:40):
It's the worst it's going to happen to us here.
Speaker 3 (01:19:42):
Yeah.
Speaker 4 (01:19:42):
Yeah, so very blessed, but honest and just that's a
question there to deal with first century but I I
guess I would agree.
Speaker 2 (01:19:52):
I guess a modern example would be those twenty one
people who died in I don't know where it was
where they were kill by Isis because they wouldn't deny
Christ and what I'm talking about. I mean, I'm a
this is a big thing.
Speaker 4 (01:20:08):
Like I don't know, a few years ago, Yeah, it
was a couple of years or something.
Speaker 1 (01:20:11):
Yeah, I remember hearing about this. But like, the thing
that's tough about this question is like, if it was
my own life on the line.
Speaker 2 (01:20:17):
I just was not I would just not deny it.
But if it's your family, my families is a different story.
Speaker 4 (01:20:23):
I would just have to trust that they have their
own responsibility to respond to Christ. And at this point,
if they have not made that, it's it's that or
they get hit by a bus without making that choice. Right,
You're responsibility before God is does.
Speaker 2 (01:20:38):
It's just a lot harder because you're kind of that decision.
Speaker 3 (01:20:41):
You're making that decision on either way, you walk away guilty.
That's from this scenario. You have to walk away guilty
for denying Christ, or walk away guilty for you would.
Speaker 1 (01:20:49):
Rather be guilty towards in that situation, be guilty, I
would not guilty towards your family.
Speaker 3 (01:20:55):
Well, ultimately, if you're not guilty towards God, you're not
guilty towards anyone else.
Speaker 1 (01:20:59):
So true, which is another verse is like like fear
not the like the man who can harm the body.
Fear the person who can harm the soul. The soul
is true and the only one who can have the
souls God.
Speaker 2 (01:21:11):
Yeah, exactly.
Speaker 1 (01:21:12):
So it's like it's like it's it's harder when it's
on behalf of someone else because like again, like if
it was Deny Christ, I'm gonna shoot you, like shoot me,
like I know where I'm going when I'm dying.
Speaker 4 (01:21:24):
Like, but if you don't have the choice, I would,
I would. You got to take the choice where you
don't deny and right leave. Okay, my family's gonna die,
but they have their own responsibilities to God.
Speaker 3 (01:21:36):
Well, and God will they made. God will have what
he wants to happen happen. Ultimately. That's just how it's
going to go to extent.
Speaker 4 (01:21:46):
Wow, Like I would say, God would determine, Like no,
I'm just.
Speaker 3 (01:21:50):
Talking about if God wants people to be saved, they
will be saved somehow some way, which I know we're
getting Calvinism adjacent here, but we've we've all agreed before
that generally acts but he has the authority to act
that way if he chooses.
Speaker 4 (01:22:05):
Right, but he has chose not to do that through
what He's revealed in his word.
Speaker 3 (01:22:09):
Right, which means that if if your whole family dies,
then that's that's just how it.
Speaker 4 (01:22:16):
Is, their personal responsibly to God.
Speaker 3 (01:22:18):
That's going to be like such an evil person.
Speaker 2 (01:22:24):
Feels so awful.
Speaker 3 (01:22:27):
This is you know, screw you for asking this question.
Speaker 2 (01:22:31):
We asked for deep questions. I got it.
Speaker 3 (01:22:33):
He said, you said, let's end.
Speaker 2 (01:22:36):
On something later.
Speaker 4 (01:22:40):
Beautiful.
Speaker 2 (01:22:41):
Swer can talk about like pantheons or something. I don't know, pantheism.
Was there to say about pantheasm? I don't know. Just's stupid?
Do you believe in more than one God? You're dumb
and I hate you.
Speaker 4 (01:22:55):
You want to move some to more some more like
person person questions.
Speaker 3 (01:22:59):
Like like personal question, I don't know, just like something
less theological. Perhaps, I don't know. We've we've beaten twenty
three minutes. This is like two sermons worth with theology
in this podcast.
Speaker 2 (01:23:11):
It's like, let's jump to Calvinism, goofy with it.
Speaker 4 (01:23:14):
Maybe goofy with it.
Speaker 2 (01:23:16):
Oh, we want to do more lighthearted questions.
Speaker 3 (01:23:19):
I don't know. I don't know what's uh. Are people
who wear socks and sandals going to heaven or not?
Speaker 1 (01:23:28):
Yes?
Speaker 3 (01:23:28):
Because I would say no.
Speaker 2 (01:23:30):
Oh, so you don't think you'll see me in heaven
wearing socks and sandals.
Speaker 3 (01:23:36):
I mean, I know I'm not gonna I don't think
I'm gonna see Jesus wearing socks and sandals.
Speaker 2 (01:23:42):
What makes you say that?
Speaker 3 (01:23:43):
I don't think he wore socks and sandals when he
walked the earth.
Speaker 2 (01:23:46):
And where's your where's your scripts?
Speaker 3 (01:23:51):
I might just wear Matthew Matthew three Matthew three twenty
four says, and Jesus went around with no socks on
his feet, only sandals.
Speaker 2 (01:24:01):
You just made that.
Speaker 3 (01:24:02):
I didn't make that up.
Speaker 4 (01:24:04):
Well, actually, ready fact check? Yeah, go home and test
the spirits to make sure what you're.
Speaker 2 (01:24:14):
I guess that's theologic. But we could still talk about
the ology. It just doesn't have to be as heavy
as just not would you.
Speaker 3 (01:24:20):
Let your family die?
Speaker 2 (01:24:24):
Well, let's go to John.
Speaker 3 (01:24:25):
Let's go to John John.
Speaker 2 (01:24:26):
Yeah, let's let's let's talk about the Eucharist.
Speaker 3 (01:24:31):
Chris, Oh, boy, Christ.
Speaker 2 (01:24:36):
Was giving me a weird star.
Speaker 4 (01:24:37):
Explain it's been a year.
Speaker 2 (01:24:39):
It's you know what the Christ means?
Speaker 4 (01:24:42):
I probably do. I just forget the flesh and.
Speaker 2 (01:24:45):
Blood of our Lord and Savior.
Speaker 4 (01:24:46):
Oh, the.
Speaker 3 (01:24:49):
The belief that communion is actually the body and blood
of Jesus.
Speaker 4 (01:24:53):
Yeah, that's that's why. That's why the like Greek and Rome.
I forget which book it is one of the Gospel
or not Gospel, it's one of the writings. Let's talk
about I think it's Pollie's like, guys, people think we're
cannibals because of this whole idea of we're eating and
(01:25:14):
consuming the body and the blood of Jesusit's like, obviously, no,
it's that's ridiculous. But that's also where the Catholic traits
took that and they're like, hey, it turns into like
as you're eating at it like turns into the actual body.
It's okay, do that for like, I mean maybe if
they're like really little, maybe three years worth the services,
(01:25:37):
you've ate the entire eight your old Jesus.
Speaker 2 (01:25:39):
You know, well, I feel like Jesus wanted is that.
It's like it's a miracle, is it?
Speaker 4 (01:25:45):
If it's jesus bysical body you're consuming.
Speaker 3 (01:25:48):
If Jesus was physically there with the disciples, why didn't
he just give this actual physical bible? Why did you
chop off a finger or me?
Speaker 2 (01:25:56):
That what makes you say he didn't because the Bible
doesn't say it does. Just because the Bible doesn't say that, there's.
Speaker 1 (01:26:06):
No No where in the Bible doesn't say there's five generals,
and Hell doesn't say there's not does it?
Speaker 2 (01:26:12):
What favorite where?
Speaker 3 (01:26:15):
John?
Speaker 1 (01:26:15):
I talk about John six, I think about like, if
you do not like consume my flesh and blood, you're
not saved.
Speaker 2 (01:26:26):
Therefore, when many of his disciples heard this, they said,
this teaching is hard. Who can accept it? Because they
were thinking the same thing. Yeah, they were like cannibalism.
H Jesus, what we've got to eat you? Mm hmm pass.
Speaker 4 (01:26:41):
No, it's John. Yeah, it's a wild I don't know.
Speaker 2 (01:26:47):
I think there's true presence. I don't think it's uh
like skin and blood.
Speaker 3 (01:26:53):
No, it's it's spiritual person.
Speaker 4 (01:26:55):
Yeah, symbol do the remembrance of me.
Speaker 2 (01:27:00):
You don't think there's like some presence in there in
the food, Yeah, like a little extra a little extra
exposure to the glory of God honing in on the food,
something like that.
Speaker 4 (01:27:14):
Really, I forget which branch of theology is, but I
figure what it's called. Big word. Basically the idea that
all of God like you don't have eighty percent God
in here and twenty percent up there, like all of
God is in all places. God does not have parts,
(01:27:35):
because that which has parts can come apart.
Speaker 3 (01:27:38):
Right there.
Speaker 4 (01:27:40):
Obviously are instances where God reveals his glory or veils
his glory in certain situations, but all of God is
everywhere present. Right, So to say we got some extra
God in this nice little bread dish, I don't know
it's it would be a symbol. I would believe it
(01:28:01):
would be just a representation, especially because there's parts of
the world like Bolivia, they don't have much for bread
or for whin they use. I don't know if it's
papaya and or like bananas and heretics water something, but
(01:28:22):
they use like other elements.
Speaker 3 (01:28:24):
But it's the whole point, right, the whole point where
Jesus was saying, he said, do this in remembrance of Me.
Speaker 4 (01:28:29):
And traditionally what they would have had at that meal
is bread.
Speaker 3 (01:28:33):
Yeah, and it's nice to be able to follow tradition,
but if you can't, The point is Jesus is here
with you as you take this, just like he is everywhere.
But right now we are honing in on remembering his
death and resurrection, and He's going to bless you as
you take this meal in faith.
Speaker 4 (01:28:50):
It also says like, whenever you eat and drink, do
some remembrance of me.
Speaker 3 (01:28:56):
Right, But it's still a special thing to take the
communion meal with Christ, of course.
Speaker 4 (01:29:03):
Remembering ritual that God that Jesus set in place for
us to remember, because guess what we're gonna forget. That's true,
we do it every month. At least I still forget
a lot. So it's a good, yeah, reminder, But I
wouldn't say there's some crazy extra spiritual. It does say
(01:29:25):
that if you first Corinthians eleven says like, if you
eat or drink in an unworthy manner, like if you
were not part of the body of Christ, what what
are you doing partake taking of this?
Speaker 2 (01:29:36):
Like and his baby also died because they people.
Speaker 4 (01:29:39):
Yeah, so if you are not part of the body
of Christ, you should not be partaking in this. Uh,
what are you gonna say?
Speaker 1 (01:29:47):
Well, well, I'm just saying, NICKI brought up John. Were
you referring to John six?
Speaker 2 (01:29:51):
Ye?
Speaker 1 (01:29:52):
Yeah, where he says barely verly, I said to you,
Moses gave you not that bread from heaven, but my
Father gives you the true bread.
Speaker 2 (01:29:59):
From Hea.
Speaker 1 (01:30:00):
For the Bread of God is which cometh down to
the heaven and given life one too the world. And
again he says thirty five. And Jesus said, unto them,
I am the Bread of life. That he cometh to me,
she'll never hunger, and that he shall believe it on
me never thirst. So a lot of people take that
to mean, oh, that's like he didn't explicitly say it's
(01:30:24):
you know, communion is a symbol.
Speaker 2 (01:30:26):
He means he's literal. He's literally the bread and you
literally have to consume him. But what's the first verse
of John everybody knows it's.
Speaker 3 (01:30:34):
The bend and the word was God, and the word.
Speaker 2 (01:30:38):
Was God, and that's the word is fraying to Jesus.
Correct me if I'm wrong. It's the word is also
used to describe the Bible.
Speaker 3 (01:30:45):
Right well, in the same way Jesus says that he
is the door. That doesn't mean he's a physical door.
Speaker 2 (01:30:52):
Like John fifteen, I'm the true vine? Is the is
God the Father a gardener? He describes himself as the
far in im parables. Yeah, John fifteen says that the
Father is a gardener.
Speaker 1 (01:31:04):
So yeah, But like when he says, like here when
he says, Moses gave you not that bread from heaven,
like because in the wilderness the Israelites were feeding off
of mana, which was given to them directly by God.
So he's like, that wasn't the bread from heaven, even
though that manna was given to us by God who
is in heaven. So like whise, so that's not the
(01:31:25):
bread of heaven. So he's not talking about physical bread here.
He says, I'm the true bread from heaven. I'm the
bread of life that he comes to me, she'll never hunger.
And the beginning of John he says, like he is
described as the Word, so when he's talking about the
bread of life, he's meaning the Word of God, like
we consume this to you know, satisfy our hunger for
(01:31:48):
truth and everything.
Speaker 4 (01:31:51):
It's also an idea of salvation. That bread was literally
kept them alive. Yeah, they have salvation that does not
go away. Yes, that you do not get sick of.
Speaker 2 (01:32:02):
Maybe it's in the same passage, but he says somewhere else.
Speaker 1 (01:32:06):
That you know, do not like strive for like like
physical food that like doesn't satisfy, but spiritual food, which
will you know, keep you full forever. I'm probably butchering that.
But right, so, I don't think that this is referring
to physical communion. When he says thread of life, he's
talking about a spiritual consuming of the Word, which is.
Speaker 2 (01:32:30):
Jesus, who is the bread of life.
Speaker 3 (01:32:32):
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (01:32:33):
But do you have a response, I just have another thing.
What when we when we wrap up they convenient stuff.
Speaker 3 (01:32:43):
That we got to wrap up?
Speaker 2 (01:32:45):
Soon's we got like ten minutes. Well, and on baptism,
is baptism necessary for salvation?
Speaker 4 (01:32:55):
No, but it is a sign of salvation and you
should do it outward, uh, expression of what has been
done on the inside. You know where baptism originated, Nicholas.
Speaker 2 (01:33:06):
It was, I mean, it wasn't a new thing in
the New Testament that was done by the Israelites. Was
it to be common Israelite?
Speaker 4 (01:33:17):
There memories of that idea came from I forget tell
me Joshua, when they were crossing, Oh yes, the Jordan
River into the Holy Land. They had they went across it,
(01:33:38):
and their idea in the Israelite the idea of being baptist.
When someone wanted to join this new the nation of Israel,
leave their pagan nation and join and be part of
God's chosen people. They had the same practice of being baptized,
which was a picture of what Joshua and Israelites did,
(01:34:02):
going from Okay, we're in the wilderness, we are on
the outside, and we are going into this new land.
We are going to gain a new identity as the
nation of Israel in our as our own nation, not
just we're just kind of people in the wilderness. And
so that was perpetuated as when a person wants to
(01:34:24):
join the Family of God, the nation of Israel, they
were baptized to symbolize there is a new citizenship. The
image you were going, you were changing citizenships from pagan,
from lost in the wilderness to now you are among
the family, in the nation of God. And so that's
(01:34:49):
why John was baptizing. And a big issue wasn't John,
why are you baptizing? It was John, why are you
baptizing Israelites? Already Israelites, what are you doing. There's a
big part of Israelates Jews were getting baptized like what
are you Like, what are you doing? It's like, this
(01:35:10):
is to proclaim the kingdom, to make straight the way
of the Lord, which is an old prophecy. I think
in Isaiah, Jeremiah, the Lord Being or being Yahweh Jehovah.
John attributing that to Jesus saying, the Messiah is coming,
he is God himself, and Jews are being baptized to
(01:35:34):
show that there is a new citizenship through this Messiah
that is coming. Because even Jesus said in it might
be John chapter ten, where he's saying, I'm taking I'm
calling out my sheep from the fold, from these different
(01:35:57):
folds and bringing them to myself, both the Gentiles and Jews,
taking people out of Jews into his new citizenship under Christ.
So he talks about that and the idea of baptism
now for us is there's a newness of citizenship under
(01:36:20):
Christ as a new man has made righteous by Christ
and by his sacrifice. And so I would say it
has always been a picture of what it is to
change citizenships, what it is to show outwardly, Hey, this
(01:36:42):
is what I'm this is what's going on on the inside.
I mean, I think it's John ten. So if you
believe in your heart and confess with your mouth that
Jesus is Lord and that God raised him from the dead,
you will be saved. Like that might be paraphrasing. But
you didn't just say if you just believe in your heart,
(01:37:05):
then you'll be saved. It's you can fast with the
amount showing that this is, this is the reality to you.
This isn't just like I'll just believe this in secret,
like this is an outward.
Speaker 1 (01:37:18):
This is it's just like, it's not just I believe
that Jesus was like the son of God. It's he
is my savior, and he is like.
Speaker 4 (01:37:29):
I am changed. I am changed fundamentally. My citizenship has changed.
Speaker 2 (01:37:34):
Yes, part of the kingdom, the new person. I am
born again because of this.
Speaker 4 (01:37:40):
So that's that's my take.
Speaker 2 (01:37:42):
I would agree with that. I agree something interesting about baptism,
just just to add, it's a bit the early Church
kind of figuring out how to go about this process
because they didn't have the full revelation of Scripture, so
they were still figuring out how to do stuff. Also,
(01:38:02):
that's that's a cool note right there. Scripture was never decided,
it was recognized, yep. So I just want to say that,
but they were deciding trying to decide whether you get
baptized in still water or running water, or it has
to be like cold or warm. A lot of interesting stuff.
(01:38:22):
Will would you get baptized in still water?
Speaker 4 (01:38:26):
I got that's moving water, New Jersey Ocean. You got
baptized still water? Cold? Still water? It the heaters are broken,
so I.
Speaker 2 (01:38:37):
Got one thing down, one part of it.
Speaker 4 (01:38:43):
But good question.
Speaker 2 (01:38:45):
How are you baptized? Well, it's baptized as a baby.
Speaker 3 (01:38:48):
Mm hmm.
Speaker 4 (01:38:49):
Were you ever re baptized? Would you ever you should
get re baptized?
Speaker 2 (01:38:55):
I don't think I need. I don't think I should.
Do you have a problem with baptism, No, I just.
Speaker 4 (01:39:04):
Don't know how it would work as far as like
if it's a decora outward declaration of your faith, Well,
it's so you didn't have that. I don't know if
you consciously had that faith when you were an infant
or could they express personally?
Speaker 1 (01:39:20):
Any infant could faith. But I still gave a outward
declaration of faith when I was older without getting without
getting part of being a memory or even baptism is
to go really quickly because we're running really short on time.
Speaker 3 (01:39:38):
Is it's a.
Speaker 1 (01:39:41):
It's it's supposed to basically like take the place of
Old Testament circumcision, so you know the practices behind that
relatively so it's it's a promise between a you know,
the parents and God that we're going to raise this
child in you, and we are to be held accountable
for making sure this kid is uh, this child is
(01:40:03):
raised in the spirit and learns about you. And I
think I mean the way you describe baptism about a
change of citizenship. I mean, if you're born, if you're
born in an un American soil, you're an American citizen.
So if you're born in a Christian family and you're baptized,
then I mean doesn't mean you're saved, but you know,
you're part of the Christian community. But you know, even
(01:40:26):
if you're baptizing as adult, doesn't mean you're saved. There
are people, I'm sure who have made false professions of
faith or like like ungenuine professions of faith and been
baptized and still aren't saved afterwards. I'm sure that's been
a case that happened.
Speaker 4 (01:40:40):
I guess that's where like the stigma of like, yes,
baptism is just an outward like Scripture does say it
is a good thing for you to be baptized, to
make that outward declaration, right, but even as you even
as I said and as you explain that, I get
(01:41:01):
this feeling of like you should probably do it again
as a believer. You know, because if you made a
false decla if you weren't saved and you just wanted
to get baptized and then lady, you got saved, I
would probably say, okay, get baptized. To me, it would
be as a true declaration, because baptism is and that's right,
(01:41:24):
that's right. Struggle, that's right, I struggle with it.
Speaker 1 (01:41:27):
I'm not saying I'm like, you know, like this is
like the true practice that everybody should do. But that's
the way I was raised, and I, as you know,
as far as I've studied, I haven't seen anything super
wrong with it.
Speaker 4 (01:41:44):
Yeah I don't. I know our church did that for
a while, just like you declare like we want this
church to hold us responsible. But also, I mean scripture
doesn't say like be baptized and then hopefully later you
get saved.
Speaker 2 (01:42:02):
This is something, this is something that I need. I
need to study more.
Speaker 3 (01:42:05):
We'll have to save this debate for another podcast because
we are out of time. Ladies and gentlemen, thank you
for listening. Nick, Well, Nick, thanks for coming on.
Speaker 4 (01:42:18):
Absolutely thanks this is this is great, you know.
Speaker 3 (01:42:20):
Guys, If you made it this far, congrats because you
just got a heck of a lot of theology. Thanks guys,
and if you disagree with us, tell us in the
comments and be sure to also add that you want
us to die. Thank you very much and so long.
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